WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.637 It's the difference between singing about god and singing to god yes the question 00:00:04.637 --> 00:00:09.137 could be said well why are you being so nitpicky about it i think it matters 00:00:09.137 --> 00:00:13.897 yeah i do too because i think it it makes a like an implication about where 00:00:13.897 --> 00:00:17.957 we believe god is right now welcome to the uncut podcast, 00:00:18.617 --> 00:00:23.257 i'm pastor luke and i'm pastor cameron and this is the uncut podcast where we 00:00:23.257 --> 00:00:28.337 have We have honest and uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:30.717 --> 00:00:34.837 Yeah. What are we talking about today? Well, today we're going to be talking 00:00:34.837 --> 00:00:39.057 about a question we got sent in to our text line. 00:00:39.397 --> 00:00:42.517 Did you know we have a text line? We do have a text line. What's our text line, Cameron? 00:00:42.677 --> 00:00:48.677 716-201-0507. Yes, you can send in your questions, comments, 00:00:48.817 --> 00:00:51.937 and topic ideas there. We do read them. 00:00:52.597 --> 00:00:56.997 So we got this question that came in that said, Hi, Cameron and Luke. 00:00:57.257 --> 00:01:02.157 Would love to hear you discuss different worship styles, what Scripture says 00:01:02.157 --> 00:01:05.977 about worship, and how that has changed in church history. 00:01:06.077 --> 00:01:11.457 As you mentioned, we talked about psalmody, hymnody, and contemporary worship styles. 00:01:12.537 --> 00:01:19.277 Yeah, I think that's coming from the episode that we did two weeks ago or so, 00:01:19.277 --> 00:01:22.357 two three weeks ago now um about like 00:01:22.357 --> 00:01:25.797 how to distinguish or how to choose your church yeah 00:01:25.797 --> 00:01:29.537 and one of the ways that we said like in 00:01:29.537 --> 00:01:34.817 maybe not so much even right now but like well there was definitely this season 00:01:34.817 --> 00:01:39.677 where people were talking about worship wars worship wars yeah traditional whatever 00:01:39.677 --> 00:01:43.917 traditional means right or contemporary whatever contemporary means because 00:01:43.917 --> 00:01:46.097 Because I think in 50 years, 00:01:46.237 --> 00:01:50.077 our now contemporary service is going to be called the traditional service. 00:01:50.277 --> 00:01:53.737 Yeah. You know, it's like, it's kind of a moving target. 00:01:53.777 --> 00:01:57.197 But what's that new contemporary service going to look like? 00:01:57.237 --> 00:01:59.477 Is it going to have like... It's going to be all... 00:02:00.246 --> 00:02:04.126 EDM. And all VR. Somebody's got to go on VR. 00:02:06.906 --> 00:02:08.706 Cameron's going to start twitching here in a second. 00:02:12.046 --> 00:02:20.526 But yeah, no, so it's a good question. And certainly worship style has changed 00:02:20.526 --> 00:02:24.986 throughout the course of the history of the church. 00:02:25.266 --> 00:02:29.866 Yeah. um and so how 00:02:29.866 --> 00:02:32.686 do we want to approach it well i mean 00:02:32.686 --> 00:02:36.266 i guess like maybe we start with this question is there 00:02:36.266 --> 00:02:50.106 a biblical prescription for worship yes okay yes and what is it that our worship 00:02:50.106 --> 00:02:54.546 should be pointed at targeted at aimed at god himself himself. 00:02:54.926 --> 00:03:00.946 I agree. Okay. So I said that because I think your implication of the question 00:03:00.946 --> 00:03:03.266 was, is there a biblical style? 00:03:03.906 --> 00:03:09.246 Right. Right. Yes. But you answered the, well, and here's the other thing too. 00:03:09.366 --> 00:03:15.246 I do think we should make a distinction here because the question is asking, 00:03:16.729 --> 00:03:20.049 And I'm not trying to be mean or I'm not trying to be super nitpicky, 00:03:20.209 --> 00:03:22.789 but I do think this is like an important distinction to make. 00:03:23.929 --> 00:03:27.029 Does worship only mean song and singing? 00:03:27.549 --> 00:03:32.109 Correct. Yeah. I mean, there's a broader question there. And I know what. 00:03:32.689 --> 00:03:37.729 Right. We're not dumb. We're not trying to be pedantic. We know what is being asked in the question. 00:03:37.729 --> 00:03:45.729 But I think it is an important distinction to understand when we come to church 00:03:45.729 --> 00:03:51.249 on a Sunday morning, we don't have the worship part that happens at the beginning and the end. 00:03:51.349 --> 00:03:55.269 Right. And then we have the sermon part, and then we have the communion part 00:03:55.269 --> 00:03:58.969 and the giving part, and then we leave. 00:03:59.289 --> 00:04:04.089 And then they're all separate parts of Sunday morning service. 00:04:04.089 --> 00:04:07.109 Service like all of 00:04:07.109 --> 00:04:10.229 those parts are acts of 00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:18.389 worship right um and so when we say a worship service we mean the whole of the 00:04:18.389 --> 00:04:24.749 thing right not an individual part that has primarily to do with music yes and 00:04:24.749 --> 00:04:28.169 i don't think that the questioner the person who asked that question i don't 00:04:28.169 --> 00:04:29.649 my My assumption is that they, 00:04:29.729 --> 00:04:32.869 you know, not that they think that there's only, 00:04:32.989 --> 00:04:37.369 like, musical worship is the only time to worship. I'm not putting that on there. 00:04:37.509 --> 00:04:43.729 But it is worth just noting that even in our vocabulary, the way we talk about things. 00:04:43.809 --> 00:04:46.489 Because Romans chapter 12, verse 00:04:46.489 --> 00:04:51.169 2 says, you know, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice to the Lord. 00:04:51.229 --> 00:04:55.869 This is your spiritual act of worship, which is holy and pleasing to the Lord. 00:04:55.869 --> 00:05:05.289 So there's this holisticness to worship that sometimes is lost in the modern 00:05:05.289 --> 00:05:12.449 conversation because we tend to use worship to describe musical worship. 00:05:13.317 --> 00:05:16.677 So sometimes if you listen to me and you hear me talk, 00:05:16.777 --> 00:05:23.197 sometimes I will use the term musical worship in referring to Sunday morning 00:05:23.197 --> 00:05:28.697 band worship, singing along, congregational singing, because I do want to make that distinction. 00:05:28.837 --> 00:05:34.197 I want to say that we can use the word worship to describe other things as well. 00:05:34.697 --> 00:05:41.037 Worship doesn't, like you said, start and stop with the first and last song. Yep. So, yeah. Yeah. 00:05:41.457 --> 00:05:46.357 So, we understand the question. Yes. And I think maybe that whole caveat was 00:05:46.357 --> 00:05:50.497 more about like, don't put in the comments, but worship is more than just singing. Like, we know. 00:05:50.617 --> 00:05:56.197 Yeah, we know. But we also think that that's like, largely what the Bible does 00:05:56.197 --> 00:05:59.277 tell us about style of worship or 00:05:59.277 --> 00:06:03.917 like how to worship, it's not talking necessarily about musical worship. 00:06:04.097 --> 00:06:08.517 It's giving us theological principles for the holisticness of worship. Yeah. 00:06:08.877 --> 00:06:14.277 So, my answer to the question then, Is there a biblical prescription or description of worship? 00:06:14.597 --> 00:06:18.977 My answer still remains the same. Yes, there is, but it's not about style. 00:06:19.337 --> 00:06:27.537 Yeah. But Cameron, what about the passage where Paul says, encourage one another 00:06:27.537 --> 00:06:32.737 with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? 00:06:33.037 --> 00:06:37.177 What does he say? He says hymns, Cameron. Right. Paul says it. 00:06:37.337 --> 00:06:44.077 Yeah. And okay. So what is like, I will ask you, I will, I will ask you the 00:06:44.077 --> 00:06:45.817 imaginary interlocutor. 00:06:45.877 --> 00:06:49.537 Okay. Paul, tell me the difference between a hymn and a song. 00:06:51.172 --> 00:06:54.352 Well, hymn has a particular, 00:06:54.672 --> 00:07:02.392 has an organ, and it has a particular verse structure, and it doesn't, 00:07:02.392 --> 00:07:08.012 it's not in a minor key, better not be in a minor key, and so forth and so on. 00:07:08.072 --> 00:07:12.172 So what you're saying is that there's like, no one really, there's not a difference. 00:07:12.512 --> 00:07:16.152 Well, I had somebody ask that question of me once upon a time, 00:07:16.272 --> 00:07:20.432 and I pointed out to him, I said, what's like the most popular hymn in the entire world? 00:07:21.172 --> 00:07:24.332 Amazing grace i'm like okay was that 00:07:24.332 --> 00:07:27.952 song written when paul 00:07:27.952 --> 00:07:31.472 wrote that no okay was that 00:07:31.472 --> 00:07:35.192 style of music around when paul wrote that no yeah 00:07:35.192 --> 00:07:40.172 what where did the tune that belongs to amazing grace not the words the tune 00:07:40.172 --> 00:07:44.352 what's the history of that tune do you know where that tune comes from our song 00:07:44.352 --> 00:07:50.572 it was a bar song it was a tune that we use widely and it was put upon any number 00:07:50.572 --> 00:07:55.132 of lyrics And it was attached to the lyrics of Amazing Grace, 00:07:55.372 --> 00:07:57.252 and that's where it's most well-known now. 00:07:58.292 --> 00:08:01.692 Is that what Paul's referencing? I don't think so. No. Yeah, 00:08:01.752 --> 00:08:03.492 I don't think so. He didn't have organs. 00:08:03.692 --> 00:08:06.932 They didn't have, you know, they didn't have, like, the structure of hymnody 00:08:06.932 --> 00:08:13.492 that we now traditionally have, you know. So, it's, what is that called? 00:08:14.592 --> 00:08:19.152 Anachronistic to say that that passage means, oh, well, there's like, 00:08:19.292 --> 00:08:23.452 we can sing psalms out of the Bible, we can sing hymns out of the hymnal, 00:08:23.552 --> 00:08:27.552 and every once in a while we can sing like a spiritual or something like that. Right. 00:08:28.392 --> 00:08:36.812 So I think to answer the question fully would be to say like, okay, worship, 00:08:37.052 --> 00:08:47.512 any act of worship should be intentionally focused on the object of worship, 00:08:47.692 --> 00:08:51.912 not on the person ascribing the worship. 00:08:52.832 --> 00:08:58.552 Yeah. So when we worship here, we worship God. 00:08:58.672 --> 00:09:04.132 The focus is God on his holiness, on his goodness, on his glory, 00:09:04.392 --> 00:09:07.792 on his faithfulness, on him as a person, 00:09:08.452 --> 00:09:14.772 the qualities of who he is, his character, and all of that. Instead of... 00:09:16.109 --> 00:09:21.129 The opposite of worship focused on God would be worship focused on self, us. 00:09:21.629 --> 00:09:26.169 Like, I feel this. I am this. 00:09:28.729 --> 00:09:36.249 That's probably the most significant and, I think, reasonable critique of a 00:09:36.249 --> 00:09:43.669 lot of contemporary worship music is that it leans towards a focus on self. 00:09:43.669 --> 00:09:54.549 We sing a lot about us in relation to God rather than singing about God or singing to God about who he is. 00:09:54.789 --> 00:10:00.489 And so it ends up becoming more of like a prayer, honestly. 00:10:00.749 --> 00:10:04.709 Yeah. Like it takes the structure, our singing takes the structure of a prayer 00:10:04.709 --> 00:10:07.889 that asks God to act on our behalf. 00:10:08.189 --> 00:10:16.469 Yep. Rather than approaching God in his presence and then ascribing with our 00:10:16.469 --> 00:10:21.889 singing his holiness, goodness, faithfulness, kindness, justice, 00:10:22.789 --> 00:10:23.849 whatever quality. 00:10:24.829 --> 00:10:32.929 I think that there's room for – we do need those songs that are kind of like 00:10:32.929 --> 00:10:36.529 talking to our souls a little bit. 00:10:36.649 --> 00:10:39.709 I agree. Like, oh, my soul, why are you downcast? 00:10:40.389 --> 00:10:43.769 Or like, you know, like that do have a little bit of self-reflection. 00:10:43.809 --> 00:10:50.389 I think there's room for those to be precisionally applied to helping us talk 00:10:50.389 --> 00:10:54.729 to our hearts, align ourselves and look towards Christ. But if that's all we ever do. 00:10:56.129 --> 00:11:00.969 I was at a church at a big conference. I was at a big church conference. 00:11:02.349 --> 00:11:06.229 Somebody got up. I'm not going to name drop or anything like that. 00:11:06.229 --> 00:11:10.849 But somebody got up, gave a fantastic message, and his message was essentially this. 00:11:11.229 --> 00:11:16.989 We need to stop focusing on technique of church, and we need to focus on God. 00:11:17.489 --> 00:11:20.469 Yeah. Let's do that. Yep. 00:11:20.989 --> 00:11:26.169 Then he got off. Everybody was very happy with all the things that he said. 00:11:26.369 --> 00:11:30.369 We then sang, I think, How He Loves Us. 00:11:31.602 --> 00:11:35.742 And then we sang, what's the other one? Reckless Love. 00:11:37.102 --> 00:11:40.642 And then we sang, I don't know, something else. 00:11:40.862 --> 00:11:46.282 But essentially, we sang like three songs in a row that were all about us. 00:11:47.342 --> 00:11:51.382 We're all about like, which, like I just said, have their place. 00:11:51.622 --> 00:11:54.902 Yeah. But if it's all about us. 00:11:56.082 --> 00:12:03.222 Yeah. This is an interesting thing because gospel music, the genre, 00:12:03.322 --> 00:12:07.742 the genre of gospel music has kind of become, it's kind of merged into, 00:12:08.122 --> 00:12:11.222 it's always had a place in contemporary music. 00:12:11.342 --> 00:12:15.782 But the themes and the styles have been kind of merging into contemporary music more and more. 00:12:15.782 --> 00:12:20.642 And one of the things that differentiates gospel music, whereas a big theme 00:12:20.642 --> 00:12:28.302 of that genre of Christian music, is it a lot of times talks about the implications of the gospel. 00:12:28.622 --> 00:12:32.642 Like, my God has delivered me. My God has saved me. 00:12:32.642 --> 00:12:37.422 Like, so that kind of language is bleeding more and more as that genre has become, 00:12:37.542 --> 00:12:42.482 uh, its influences spread, which I'm not angry about, but we need to be wise 00:12:42.482 --> 00:12:46.902 about the, like that balance. Yeah. 00:12:47.382 --> 00:12:52.042 Right. I think one of the ways that I've heard described or I described, 00:12:52.202 --> 00:12:56.962 I don't know, it's like, it's the difference between singing about God and singing to God. 00:12:57.002 --> 00:13:02.242 Yes. Singing about God is kind of a contemporary style. 00:13:02.342 --> 00:13:05.362 We're singing about the things that he does, especially in relationship to us. 00:13:05.502 --> 00:13:08.602 But singing to God is different. 00:13:08.722 --> 00:13:16.282 And for me, I think the question could be said, well, why are you being so nitpicky about it? 00:13:16.882 --> 00:13:22.982 I think it matters. Yeah, I do too, because I think it presumes or it makes 00:13:22.982 --> 00:13:27.462 a, it makes a, like an implication about where we believe God is right now. 00:13:27.922 --> 00:13:33.662 You know, like is God in the midst of our presence as we were in a gathered 00:13:33.662 --> 00:13:35.742 community? Is he, is God here in this moment? 00:13:35.882 --> 00:13:41.142 Yes. Well, wouldn't it be weird to sing just about God if he was in the room? Right. 00:13:41.582 --> 00:13:46.222 Like, wouldn't, wouldn't it be more like, wouldn't you sing to God? Yeah. 00:13:46.842 --> 00:13:50.402 It's like me starting to tell a story. Hey, guys, you know Cameron the other 00:13:50.402 --> 00:13:53.662 day? Cameron was out doing this thing. Yeah. And he's right here. 00:13:55.082 --> 00:14:02.542 The second thing I would say is like, okay, I've caught flack for this before. 00:14:02.802 --> 00:14:05.422 Oh, boy. Here we go. The Uncut Podcast. Yeah. 00:14:05.862 --> 00:14:08.962 It's not really too controversial, but I don't think. Maybe it is. 00:14:09.682 --> 00:14:14.642 That we don't... Like, there's not a whole lot of autonomy in heaven. Mm-hmm. Like... 00:14:17.207 --> 00:14:19.547 People are like, well, what do you mean there's no freedom in heaven, 00:14:19.647 --> 00:14:21.567 like autonomy in heaven? 00:14:21.667 --> 00:14:27.187 Well, I don't mean like that it's drudgery and like burdensome. 00:14:27.307 --> 00:14:35.367 But what I mean is like that when in heaven, even right now, 00:14:35.507 --> 00:14:39.667 in this very moment that we're recording this, and for all of eternity, 00:14:39.887 --> 00:14:46.707 there have been heavenly or spiritual beings surrounding the throne of God, singing. 00:14:47.207 --> 00:14:49.927 Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, right? 00:14:50.967 --> 00:14:54.227 You read about this in the book of Isaiah. You read about it in the book of Daniel. 00:14:54.327 --> 00:14:58.707 You read about it in the book of Revelation, right? In the throne room of heaven 00:14:58.707 --> 00:15:06.307 is a continuous chorus of worship singing to God about his holiness, 00:15:06.647 --> 00:15:09.947 like ascribing to him his holiness. 00:15:09.947 --> 00:15:13.147 And if we're praying prayers like 00:15:13.147 --> 00:15:16.267 jesus taught us to pray like your will be done your kingdom come 00:15:16.267 --> 00:15:19.567 on earth as it is in heaven like there 00:15:19.567 --> 00:15:22.407 there's a whole lot of things that i think that we need to include in 00:15:22.407 --> 00:15:27.867 our understanding of what it means to singing about god versus singing to god 00:15:27.867 --> 00:15:35.307 like he is in the room i think it presumes how we feel like or what church is 00:15:35.307 --> 00:15:41.607 like is this a moment where where we are fully focused on God because he's here right now. 00:15:41.787 --> 00:15:46.167 So we don't need to talk about him. We need to talk to him. 00:15:46.387 --> 00:15:59.587 Right. So I think contemporary Christian music doesn't do as good a job of that as other... 00:16:04.478 --> 00:16:08.338 Styles i was curious styles of singing 00:16:08.338 --> 00:16:11.378 or musical worship has done in the 00:16:11.378 --> 00:16:14.398 past yeah um and so 00:16:14.398 --> 00:16:18.038 when you talk about when the questioner asks about psalmody um 00:16:18.038 --> 00:16:21.198 and uh hymnody which 00:16:21.198 --> 00:16:24.818 is like using the psalms as worship using 00:16:24.818 --> 00:16:27.958 hymns as worship um do they 00:16:27.958 --> 00:16:31.278 necessarily or what is the a difference then between is 00:16:31.278 --> 00:16:34.078 like using the psalms better than using the hymns is 00:16:34.078 --> 00:16:37.098 better than using the contemporary or whatever and i 00:16:37.098 --> 00:16:40.078 would say i don't think universally no i 00:16:40.078 --> 00:16:43.278 don't think it's like cut and dried that the soul a psalmody 00:16:43.278 --> 00:16:48.178 is a hundred percent better than contemporary worship all the time no no matter 00:16:48.178 --> 00:16:55.278 what any more than i think that hymns are more theologically accurate than contemporary 00:16:55.278 --> 00:17:00.138 music because there are some hymns with some pretty like like theology in them. 00:17:01.558 --> 00:17:06.298 So what I, what I'll tell you my perspective, you tell me if you agree or disagree. 00:17:06.458 --> 00:17:13.438 My perspective is that when you look at kind of the progression of worship throughout 00:17:13.438 --> 00:17:14.718 the history of the Christian church, 00:17:14.878 --> 00:17:22.258 it really just represents the kind of like the cultural context that it finds 00:17:22.258 --> 00:17:25.558 itself in the generation or the era that it's in. 00:17:25.558 --> 00:17:29.638 There are some exceptions to that, 00:17:29.838 --> 00:17:34.318 like there'll be still some 00:17:34.318 --> 00:17:37.238 Protestant denomination or 00:17:37.238 --> 00:17:45.958 Orthodox denomination or Orthodox and other denominations will be like they 00:17:45.958 --> 00:17:55.538 will have been trying to maintain a psalmody even rather than representing or mirroring the context. 00:17:55.558 --> 00:18:00.838 Or the culture that they're in. I understand that, and I don't have any problem with that. 00:18:00.918 --> 00:18:06.198 But I would say that the change in musical worship has come primarily not as 00:18:06.198 --> 00:18:07.818 like a this is better than that, 00:18:07.918 --> 00:18:13.478 but more of like a this better represents the cultural heartbeat and gives people 00:18:13.478 --> 00:18:18.138 an opportunity to worship in a language and style that matches that. 00:18:20.503 --> 00:18:25.123 The way that their mind thinks even. Yeah. Well, yeah, there's so like, 00:18:25.263 --> 00:18:32.643 yes, because like if we were to get like, um, what's that song? 00:18:32.923 --> 00:18:36.183 Um, this happens all the time in Christmas hymns. 00:18:36.643 --> 00:18:40.923 How many people like my own example from my own life? 00:18:41.063 --> 00:18:47.863 Um, what's that Christmas, Christmas hymn, Christmas song, Carol, uh, round yawn. 00:18:48.863 --> 00:18:56.943 Round young young virgin right you know what i thought that was saying for the longest time, 00:18:58.263 --> 00:19:05.343 yonder round virgin i thought they were referencing how pregnant mary was not 00:19:05.343 --> 00:19:09.563 that they were gathered around mary i thought they were talking about how just 00:19:09.563 --> 00:19:14.343 like big her belly was that she was round um that was what i thought as a kid 00:19:14.343 --> 00:19:17.003 it wasn't until like i was a little bit Silent Night. 00:19:17.123 --> 00:19:19.943 That's what it was. I was singing a song in my head like, what song is that? Thank you. 00:19:20.723 --> 00:19:24.923 I'm sure everyone who's listening right now is yelling into their listening device, Silent Night! 00:19:26.443 --> 00:19:31.303 But no, I, like, as a kid, no one explained to me what that whole sentence meant. 00:19:31.563 --> 00:19:33.983 And so, I just was like, round, round. 00:19:34.383 --> 00:19:37.723 Well, her belly was round because she was pregnant. That's what I thought. 00:19:38.543 --> 00:19:45.223 That's not what that means. It means that they were gathered around her and the baby and the child. 00:19:46.483 --> 00:19:50.643 Right. And so that happened to me as a kid. It took me an embarrassingly long 00:19:50.643 --> 00:19:54.563 amount of time to figure out what that actually meant. Cause I had to relearn that at some point. 00:19:54.763 --> 00:20:00.983 Um, but that happens to, uh, what's, what's the other, what's the really old Christmas one. 00:20:01.043 --> 00:20:03.843 That's got all the old language that sometimes is sung. 00:20:04.203 --> 00:20:11.383 Um, it's the one. It has all the, like Jesus, uh, 00:20:12.311 --> 00:20:17.751 um i'm i'm absolutely butchering with you on this one i know you're not um, 00:20:18.791 --> 00:20:22.111 i don't know um long awaited 00:20:22.111 --> 00:20:25.351 jesus or long come thou long expected jesus 00:20:25.351 --> 00:20:28.311 come thou long expected jesus the fact that that 00:20:28.311 --> 00:20:31.271 title of the song is hard to 00:20:31.271 --> 00:20:34.151 say yeah yeah to set 00:20:34.151 --> 00:20:37.051 your people free yeah that one that one it's 00:20:37.051 --> 00:20:40.191 got tons of just archaic language yet so if 00:20:40.191 --> 00:20:44.011 we were to sing only hymns there would 00:20:44.011 --> 00:20:47.511 just be a language problem yes um you 00:20:47.511 --> 00:20:50.591 know and it's it's not very accessible some of the tunes are 00:20:50.591 --> 00:20:58.491 not easy to be sung some hymns were written to be um didactic like some some 00:20:58.491 --> 00:21:04.291 people wrote hymns as just a teaching tool um and they weren't actually created 00:21:04.291 --> 00:21:09.951 for the setting of worship um you know so there's you know and then. 00:21:11.811 --> 00:21:19.451 Um you know there was a time at which like there were uh church ordained um 00:21:19.451 --> 00:21:25.491 what do you call them scales and keys in music so the church was like you can 00:21:25.491 --> 00:21:30.611 use this key in this interval and these these musics, but you can't use these. 00:21:31.331 --> 00:21:36.191 You can't use these minor tones or you can't use what was like referred to as 00:21:36.191 --> 00:21:37.391 the devil inner interval. 00:21:37.531 --> 00:21:41.971 So like you guys want to know what that one is. I, cause I've been waiting to 00:21:41.971 --> 00:21:43.531 say what that one is. It's go ahead. 00:21:43.851 --> 00:21:46.991 So if you guys all watch the Simpsons, 00:21:47.753 --> 00:21:52.913 It's the Simpsons. Or if you're like more cultured and you're like West Side 00:21:52.913 --> 00:21:54.913 Story, it's Maria, Maria. 00:21:55.453 --> 00:22:00.213 Like that interval right there was not allowed to be used in church music for centuries. 00:22:00.673 --> 00:22:04.953 I did not know this. Yeah. I took music history because I thought it would sound 00:22:04.953 --> 00:22:07.493 cool and I got to use it once in my life. Yeah. 00:22:07.893 --> 00:22:11.233 Right now? Right now. It paid off. It paid off, mom. 00:22:13.853 --> 00:22:16.613 So um you know people have 00:22:16.613 --> 00:22:19.613 been arguing about the styles the forms 00:22:19.613 --> 00:22:23.353 down to the specific notes you 00:22:23.353 --> 00:22:26.233 can use in worship for a very very long time and 00:22:26.233 --> 00:22:29.173 that might sound really really silly but don't tell 00:22:29.173 --> 00:22:32.853 them about amazing grace then yeah don't tell them about amazing grace um 00:22:32.853 --> 00:22:35.653 you know but like it's been inside of like i 00:22:35.653 --> 00:22:38.633 don't know if you experienced it much growing up but i remember remember 00:22:38.633 --> 00:22:41.573 people being like oh my gosh your church has drums 00:22:41.573 --> 00:22:44.573 in it just yeah the drums are pagan drums are pagan 00:22:44.573 --> 00:22:47.653 um and so you know 00:22:47.653 --> 00:22:50.653 so there is and you know there can 00:22:50.653 --> 00:22:53.693 be beneficial discussion about that 00:22:53.693 --> 00:22:56.613 right like you know are we writing music that 00:22:56.613 --> 00:23:03.233 is also conducive to towards like a tone like if you were to take i don't know 00:23:03.233 --> 00:23:08.033 like i don't listen to enough like edgy pop music um But if you take like an 00:23:08.033 --> 00:23:12.793 edgy pop song and we just tried to be like Weird Al Yankovic it and we just 00:23:12.793 --> 00:23:16.593 like take all the lyrics off of it and put Christian lyrics on top of it, but it's like... 00:23:17.902 --> 00:23:20.842 Like yeah with that right you know 00:23:20.842 --> 00:23:23.622 is that a stylistic thing that we think we should do and 00:23:23.622 --> 00:23:26.422 sure i probably not but so there is room for 00:23:26.422 --> 00:23:29.442 discussion there but i do think largely 00:23:29.442 --> 00:23:32.542 it's been generations and people like 00:23:32.542 --> 00:23:35.762 fighting well we should stay back here and people 00:23:35.762 --> 00:23:38.542 saying but we don't know what that means anymore and it 00:23:38.542 --> 00:23:41.662 doesn't connect with our hearts yeah yeah expression 00:23:41.662 --> 00:23:46.602 brings meaning yeah individual expression brings not individual expression but 00:23:46.602 --> 00:23:53.502 cultural expression brings yeah greater levels of meaning so and then there's 00:23:53.502 --> 00:23:56.962 other aspects of like worship the question doesn't really ask this but there's 00:23:56.962 --> 00:23:58.862 other aspects of worship that are now like, 00:24:00.302 --> 00:24:05.602 not now but have filtered into the church where now it's like is that should 00:24:05.602 --> 00:24:08.802 we be including those things in our worship services. 00:24:11.902 --> 00:24:17.842 I remember a time period where screens and projectors were an issue. 00:24:18.062 --> 00:24:28.742 Yep. Right? And then certainly you'll see criticism of big auditoriums with no windows. 00:24:29.062 --> 00:24:33.322 Yep. With like light production. Fog machines. Fog machines. 00:24:33.702 --> 00:24:38.982 Hayes machines, more correctly. Right. And then all of that, 00:24:39.042 --> 00:24:42.582 like what is that meant to do? 00:24:42.802 --> 00:24:45.442 What does it mean? Is it okay? 00:24:45.922 --> 00:24:49.822 Is it not okay? And Cameron, really, you're old school. You're talking about projectors. 00:24:50.362 --> 00:24:53.742 Really, the thing is LED walls now. LED walls now, right. Yeah, 00:24:53.762 --> 00:24:57.782 we've looked at them. Yeah. Yeah. They expensive. They expensive. 00:25:00.922 --> 00:25:04.602 So, yeah, I think that there is... 00:25:07.662 --> 00:25:14.902 I would be i don't know if i go that far i i would i was gonna say i was gonna 00:25:14.902 --> 00:25:23.002 say i would be comfortable with any like contextual expression of worship that kept god at the center. 00:25:25.602 --> 00:25:27.202 Um but i think, 00:25:29.262 --> 00:25:35.902 i don't know yeah because i there are things that i'm uncomfortable with in 00:25:35.902 --> 00:25:41.762 cultural expressions of worship like i'm not like a auditorium no windows, 00:25:42.442 --> 00:25:50.642 light show pastor comes down from a zipline yeah balcony like i right you know 00:25:50.642 --> 00:25:54.302 there is like a high High, high, high production. Right. 00:25:55.982 --> 00:26:01.862 Which lacks really a sense of transparency and vulnerability and puts at, 00:26:02.022 --> 00:26:07.622 I think, the center the production value over the presence. Right. Yeah. 00:26:08.765 --> 00:26:11.645 I i agree yeah and like a 00:26:11.645 --> 00:26:14.925 lot of that really does like it's personal 00:26:14.925 --> 00:26:17.805 personal discernment right like it's it's 00:26:17.805 --> 00:26:22.265 really difficult like we that's a preference for me it does get down to a preference 00:26:22.265 --> 00:26:27.085 a little bit or it comes to i don't know i think that like there's room for 00:26:27.085 --> 00:26:32.305 conviction even but it comes to a place of where we have to share our own personal 00:26:32.305 --> 00:26:37.205 convictions and maybe maybe not worry about the Joneses next door. 00:26:38.125 --> 00:26:43.085 Like, but the other thing that I will say, that's the other end of that coin 00:26:43.085 --> 00:26:47.185 is there is a story in the old Testament where. 00:26:51.325 --> 00:26:59.505 David wants like water from a particular fountain or well in Jerusalem or something like that. 00:26:59.565 --> 00:27:02.665 Do you remember this story, Cameron? can you help me fill in the details 00:27:02.665 --> 00:27:05.805 or do you talking so he wants like 00:27:05.805 --> 00:27:08.685 this particular like water from and then his mighty men 00:27:08.685 --> 00:27:12.625 they're like out on the battlefield somewhere and his mighty men sneak through 00:27:12.625 --> 00:27:18.265 enemy lines and borders to go and get this and then they come and they bring 00:27:18.265 --> 00:27:26.445 it back to him um he might have been like wanting to like offer like a sacrifice 00:27:26.445 --> 00:27:28.385 or something to to the Lord, 00:27:28.525 --> 00:27:31.225 but he was like separate, but he was away from like the altar or something. 00:27:31.745 --> 00:27:34.965 And he brings it back and the mighty men give it to him. 00:27:35.685 --> 00:27:42.605 And David says like, I will not offer and sacrifice a thing that did not cost me anything. 00:27:43.745 --> 00:27:48.345 Um, and I think that's a important, um, 00:27:49.077 --> 00:27:53.197 important corrective or idea because 00:27:53.197 --> 00:27:56.537 like sometimes when 00:27:56.537 --> 00:28:03.897 we start talking about worship preferences um what we sometimes want is a worship 00:28:03.897 --> 00:28:10.137 that lasts lacks anything of us or doesn't ask anything about of us it's exactly 00:28:10.137 --> 00:28:15.497 how we think it should be it's really easy for us to do we We like it a lot. 00:28:15.537 --> 00:28:20.217 It's the style we prefer, but it doesn't cost us anything. 00:28:21.417 --> 00:28:26.537 And so that's a corrective that I sometimes will bring about. 00:28:26.717 --> 00:28:29.757 So did you find the passage I was talking about? I think so. 00:28:34.217 --> 00:28:36.997 Maybe. It was the water, right? Yeah. Yeah. 00:28:40.877 --> 00:28:43.597 I'm looking in 2 Samuel 23. 00:28:45.757 --> 00:28:49.497 It was the well in Bethlehem near the Philistine territory. 00:28:55.077 --> 00:29:00.377 In the Philistines, that time David was in a stronghold. 00:29:00.797 --> 00:29:04.257 David longed for water and said, oh, that someone would get me a drink of water 00:29:04.257 --> 00:29:05.957 from the well near the gate of Bethlehem. 00:29:06.997 --> 00:29:09.817 So three mighty men broke through the Philistine lines, drew water from the 00:29:09.817 --> 00:29:13.917 well near the gate, carried it back to David, but he refused to drink it. 00:29:13.957 --> 00:29:16.117 Instead, he poured it out before the Lord. 00:29:16.177 --> 00:29:19.877 Far be it from me, O Lord, to do this, he said, is not the blood of men who 00:29:19.877 --> 00:29:21.297 went at risk of their lives. 00:29:21.877 --> 00:29:27.617 And David would not drink it. So it may be a translation issue where David's 00:29:27.617 --> 00:29:30.377 like, I'm not going to drink something that cost me nothing. Yeah. 00:29:34.520 --> 00:29:37.920 But unless there's another, unless there's another. 00:29:39.140 --> 00:29:43.920 Something similar, another story. Yeah. I don't know. I'm going to have to go and Google and look. 00:29:45.380 --> 00:29:49.680 Put it in the show notes. Put it in the show notes. But anyways, 00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:52.580 regardless of whether or not that's the story or not, 00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:59.860 I think the principle makes is biblical in that like it isn't actually all about 00:29:59.860 --> 00:30:03.860 what we prefer or what is most amiable for us. 00:30:04.520 --> 00:30:08.320 Because worship is, at its core, a sacrifice of sorts. 00:30:08.580 --> 00:30:15.200 Yep. And so I don't think it's always to, like, well, I can't worship because 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.620 this is not the tune I like. 00:30:17.800 --> 00:30:21.480 We only do hymns, or it's only this way, or something like that. 00:30:22.080 --> 00:30:25.800 Well, no. Like, if, I mean, granted. 00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:29.820 Like, you know, assuming that we're singing songs that are Godward, 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:31.520 that are good, that are faithful. 00:30:31.520 --> 00:30:34.660 Um like it's just 00:30:34.660 --> 00:30:37.900 not the style you want like can you 00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:41.440 make an effort yeah right um 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:44.840 because yeah you're gonna like certain 00:30:44.840 --> 00:30:50.780 styles of songs better than others but worship isn't just preference it's also 00:30:50.780 --> 00:30:56.660 an act it's a choice that's actually i think that's a really really important 00:30:56.660 --> 00:31:04.200 thing to note too is that worship is not a musical worship is not simply an emotion, right? 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:08.860 It's, it's also a choice choice. Yeah. You have to choose to surrender yourself. 00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:14.160 You can't worship your preferences or your opinions and worship this worship, 00:31:14.260 --> 00:31:19.200 the God of heaven at the same time, at least not in totality or in spirit and in truth. Yeah. 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:23.980 Worship happened whether or not you had a static emotional experience. 00:31:25.780 --> 00:31:28.980 Yes so do you 00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:32.760 have anything else you want to say about that i don't think so okay thanks 00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:37.700 for the question yeah it was a good question yeah very good question um keep 00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:44.580 the questions coming if you have them 716-201-0507 um if you like this episode 00:31:44.580 --> 00:31:48.020 or others that you've watched please please share it social media or with a 00:31:48.020 --> 00:31:51.140 friend or whoever like it, 00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:56.760 subscribe and rate it wherever you're listening. That'd be great for us. 00:31:52.240 --> 00:32:03.120 Music. 00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:01.920 We'd be encouraged by it as long as you're reading it good. 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:05.580 If you're reading it bad, we might be discouraged by it, but we're still going 00:32:05.580 --> 00:32:08.820 to do it. So anyway, thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time. 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:15.934 Music.