Kevin: Hello, and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin Yank.
Rob: And me, Rob Lloyd.
Kevin: We're using our full names today, Rob, because it's a special
episode, it's a season finale, we want to remind everyone who we are
before we disappear for a while.
Rob: Damn right, damn right, it is the season finale, uh, and a show
ending of Discovery, so why not formalize this whole process and, and
give it the reverence it deserves.
Kevin: It's a surprise every time I'm reminded that this is the end
of a Star Trek series, cause I have to say, Rob, it doesn't feel
like the end of a Star Trek series.
I'm used to being full of wistful nostalgia about what might have been if
they'd gotten another year of stories or, where will the lives of these crew
members that I've fallen in love with go?
And I don't know if I'm tipping my hand about how I feel about this last
episode, but, um, yeah, I, I kind of feel like, uh, I won't miss it much, Rob.
Rob: We are definitely in a new world and a new age of Star Trek.
We're gone of the, you know, the golden era of three shows running
in the 90s and early noughties, where you could, you know, really
build into this type of stuff.
We're in a new era of shorter seasons, shorter time with these characters,
more arcs need to be resolved in a shorter amount of time, and there
is that danger of us not connecting, uh, completely with these characters
as we would have in the past.
Kevin: Yeah, it's, uh, I think I've pointed it out before, but I'll say it
again now that it's official in, in 50 episodes, Discovery is barely longer
than half of the original series.
Rob: Mm hmm.
Exactly.
And especially, um, you know, I, I pretty much skipped an entire season.
So I'm even further.
Kevin: Well, there you go.
You've got it in reserve.
If someday you, you know, maybe it's you don't know what you got till it's gone,
Rob, and you will be regretting that you gave Discovery the short shrift, and
you've got a whole year of it in reserve.
Rob: And if ever I reach that point, you'll be the first to know, Kevin.
Kevin: Well, let's talk about, uh, Discovery Season 5, Episode
10, Life, itself, and then maybe we'll have some, some parting
reflections on the series as a whole.
And then we're not going to leave you without, uh, a topic that we will dig
into, and the topic this week is biffos, punch ups, hand-to-hand combat, because
that's really what the action came down to in this episode for me is, is Moll
and Burnham in the hallway of infinity, punching it out in spectacular form.
I dare say this is maybe the most visually arresting fistfight
we've ever had in Star Trek.
Uh, I don't know what that says about the end of a, of a series though
to end on that note, but uh, Rob, what did you think of Life, Itself?
Rob: Um, uh, yes, I'm coming from a point of view where I've never
really connected with this show.
So for me, it was an interesting experience to walk through and reflect
on while it was happening in real time, how do they decide to walk through this,
these, this final hour or hour, nearly two hours of, um, time with these characters?
Well, especially as we've talked about many times before, and you've, and, and
you've been very good at reminding me, this show is built around one character.
It is, and that's been something I've been really finding it hard getting used
to even over four seasons of watching.
Yes, in all the Star Trek shows there is a captain, a lead character, but
there is still, you know, a certain amount of time and effort put into the
supporting characters of certain levels.
You can always look at Deanna Troi not getting as much time as she
should or other type characters within the, the whole franchise.
But this has definitely been a show where we have noted supporting
characters' development has been put on hold, so as to fully flesh out
Kevin: At least at times, but yes, yeah.
It has been explicitly part of the envisioning of the show and implicit
in the choices they've made in the storytelling at different times.
I dare say here in the last season they put more effort into giving
everyone a story than they ever have.
Rob: Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say everybody, but certainly a lot more.
They've been doing a lot of emotional catch up, is what we've talked about a
bit, about going with, we're sacrificing a character, and we need to go back
and make you care for this person even after they're dead, type of stuff.
But yeah, there was, A lot of time spent with things that were
visually exciting but no real development or pushing forward.
Um, the conclusion for me was very much a case of there was no,
really there was no other option.
There was no way they could really use this progenitor technology
in any way, shape or form.
It had to be, you know, given up.
And I guess that was the journey of enlightenment to get to that point
where this is too big for any of us.
Kevin: Yeah.
I've been thinking of other stories that have ended in that, like, for some
reason my mind goes to Indiana Jones and the quest for the Holy Grail, you know?
Rob: I was just about to say that
Kevin: the entire promise of the movie is they are going to
find the key to infinite life.
And in hindsight, the fact that that cup, if it did ever do anything, is left
to tumble down a crevasse and never be seen again, kind of had to happen all
along, otherwise Indiana Jones would be a very different kind of story.
And I feel like even here in the 32nd century where nothing matters and anything
is possible, you'd be changing Star Trek pretty significantly to hand the
Federation the keys to creating new life and to pay that off in some way, which I
guess would mean they'd have to use it.
And I'm not sure anyone is interested in seeing that story.
Or I guess the writers must have at least considered it
and thought, too big a swing.
That would break the franchise.
Rob: Yeah, it was that very much a case of us talking about it so long, who's
gonna be brought back from the dead?
Who's gonna be brought back from the dead?
It's been teased, and
Kevin: Well that's what I was betting on is that there would
be some moral dilemma decision or you get to use it only just once.
Or they would use it once and then it would be destroyed
by the bad guys in some way.
Um, but yeah, we didn't even get that.
It was completely cancelled as a promise.
Rob: Yeah, yep, and L'ak's gone.
Kevin: Yeah, L'ak never came back.
They even showed the, in the teaser, they were like, Our story doesn't end this way.
And I was like, watching it the second time today going, Yes, yes it does.
Ha ha ha ha ha That
is the strangest thing, yeah, and, and, I think I said last week that what
was most disappointing to me about the culmination of this season was that
Moll and L'ak's story, ultimately, didn't amount to anything other than
motivated competitors in a race.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: A race to nothing, as it turns out, but, you know, they were competitors
with a motivation, but their character arcs kind of ended in a dead end.
One of them died off and the other one was convinced to give up the hunt at the end.
And watching it a second time today, looking for something satisfying
in it, because I don't want to give up hope on my Star Trek, Rob.
I am always looking through those rose colored glasses for the thing
that is, that makes it worth watching.
And the final moments where, in that infinite hallway where Burnham
and Moll are face to face and they've had their fight, and Burnham
is saying, No, just trust me.
Don't, you don't have to trust the Federation.
Just trust that I, Michael Burnham, will do everything in my power to bring
back your true love, because I know what it's felt like to lose your true love.
And I got him back, and I was so lucky, so you can trust me that I'm going to try
and make the same thing happen for you.
And that is what finally convinces her.
And I suppose, the fact that Moll met Book, and experienced him as someone
worthy of that unconditional love, that, you know, she would have to meet
him to understand why Burnham might go above and beyond in order to save
their relationship, in order for her to believe that Michael's commitment
to her and L'ak is worth a damn.
Uh, so there, that is the, the thinnest of threads that I can connect that makes
Moll and L'ak's uh story have a, an ending that is at all satisfying, but again, the
only reason Burnham has to talk her down is because she's there in the first place.
Rob: Yeah.
And even right at the end, after it's all done, there wasn't any, the
writing of Moll and Book together was a hint at a potential of a possibility,
but there, it was just him coming in going, I'm here if you need.
Kevin: And she goes, I still hate you.
Rob: Heh heh heh!
Kevin: Which I believe, look, I take her at her word.
I don't think there is any happy, happily ever after for them two.
I think she, she goes off and finds her own purpose in life.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, very much so.
So it comes as a bit of a nothing, uh, resolution of a nothing
story arc that we've found about.
But, um, we had one last, let's solve this scientific problem in a short amount of
time and do something we've never done before and wave it away of using, you
know, Discovery split to be able to jump, uh, another ship, but not themselves.
Kevin: Yeah, that was, that was preposterous, but I was, I was, I
sat back and laughed in, in a like, I surrender to the insanity at that point.
Like, I was like, well, it's something, it's spectacular,
something I've never seen before.
It's your series finale, I'll give it to you.
Um, I, I was kind of okay with the saucer separation and, and jump, I guess, cause
I had given up caring in some way at that point, that I was, I was buying in for
pure entertainment value at that point.
Rob: That's how they get ya.
Kevin: I don't know if that's what you were referring to with the, the
scientific conundrum, but the puzzle with the triangles that really bugged me.
Rob: Yeah?
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: It was a little bit too simple for my liking.
Kevin: Yeah, it was very simple so much so that I paused it and I went, look,
I'm going to draw you what the answer is.
Because it is, it is so obvious.
Moll was like, staring at it, and her brain couldn't compute the answer.
And I was like, this is ridiculous!
Are we meant to believe that Moll, in her desperation, is not
smart enough to figure that out?
It's a pretty obvious clue.
And of all of the, of all of the tests that they have had to clear on their way
here, to put the dumbest geometry puzzle right here at the end, seems ridiculous.
And then, she didn't even get it!
So yeah, I paused it, and I drew the big triangle in between
the nine little triangles.
I was like, that's what it's gonna be, and sure enough, that's what it was.
And the fact that Moll wasn't smart enough, ah!
Star Trek fans are nerds.
If you give them a math puzzle and it stumps the baddie at the last moment,
and it's meant to be a meaningful hurdle for your hero to overcome as the last
step in a season long treasure hunt, you gotta make it a good math puzzle.
That was not a good math puzzle.
I feel like they were talking down to their audience with that one.
Rob: Out of, out of all the franchises that exist, um, Star Trek definitely
does attract those people, um, who are, you know, academically,
you know, or scientifically or mathematically, uh, you know, inclined.
And so that type of stuff you're there going, ooh, read your audience,
read your audience, Discovery.
Kevin: Yeah.
I'm gonna make a big triangle triangles.
Oh no, I got zapped on the ground.
Uh, all of that stuff.
That is when my soul left my body, and I was like, okay, I'm just here
for the visual effects at this point.
Rob: And we had Saru do his bit to stave off the, um, the Breen for a little bit
Kevin: the high stakes bluffing gambit.
Rob: You know, diplomatic chicken, as I like to call it.
Kevin: Yeah, uh, yeah, it was, what did you think of that stuff?
Rob: Um, again, it's like.
It, they, they split their focus in so many different areas and we always
knew that Michael was going to be the main focus so it did sacrifice a
little bit of time with trying to get Saru in there somehow, trying to get,
you know, the Discovery crew involved somehow, trying to resolve the Doctor's
arc, and he just needed to be on a shuttle, in, in, in the middle of two
black holes, just to be there, that was his big revelation, I'm going,
Um, okay?
Kevin: I mean, better than Stamets who just kind of got left behind, I suppose.
He did the cool math last episode to crash into the shuttle bay.
So I feel like that was Stamets's big finish.
Oh, and I guess he, he, he did do the super jump that, uh, got rid of the Breen.
So there's that too.
But yeah.
Um, yeah.
Hugh Culber kind of going, I know the number!
And I can't explain why.
Isn't that spiritually significant?
I don't know.
I feel like in any other episode of any other Star Trek series,
he would have gone, Try this.
Huh.
I guess it was Jinaal helping me out one last time, shucks!
And it would, like, that, that beat would have worked.
But the fact that it was built up all season to, to
be more than it was, did not.
Rob: There was a big reveal of Dave Cronenberg was actually a character
we have seen before from Enterprise.
Kevin: Mm hmm.
Rob: Daniels?
Kevin: Daniels!
He was Crewman Daniels, yes, the time traveler.
We've talked about him recently when I talked about Archer being transported
into the future to visit the Enterprise J.
The time traveller who was transporting him around and feeding him information
from the future, that was crewman Daniels.
And he started on Enterprise as just kind of like a regular crewman
who was, you know, Johnny on the spot for one too many times.
And it raised suspicions and they realized he was, uh, kind of a time
cop or a time traveler from the future who was here to make sure that,
that things unfolded as they should.
Or he was kind of playing the Dr.
Sam Beckett of making sure that things that once went wrong were put right.
Rob: Thank you for making that reference.
Thank you for making that reference.
Kevin: So yes, I don't think anyone ever particularly cared for Crewman Daniels.
Like, he was annoying at best.
And the whole function of Crewman Daniels was to tell our heroes, no,
you can't solve this the easy way.
You need to solve it the hard way.
You're like, come on, Daniels, give us once.
Give us it once.
Tell us the answers once.
And he was always like, I can't tell you why, but you can't do it this way.
And so, yeah, Daniels was annoying.
He kind of, uh, from memory, he kind of exploded into Uh, uh, an explosion
of light, like he got shot by a, by a beam of some kind and, and exploded
and someone made a knowing remark like, Oh, don't count them out just yet.
These time travelers are wily.
They don't work linearly.
We might just see him again.
And uh, this is, uh, the first time we find out what the future held for Daniels.
Rob: It's definitely a deep cut, I mean that is the definition of a deep cut.
Kevin: Yeah.
I, I mean, I, when he, when they said I squinted, squinted and went, all right.
Okay.
Like, yeah, it connects.
No one was, no one was still asking the question, what about Daniels?
Whatever became of Daniels?
Rob: And there's been no reference or any acknowledgement of him within
Discovery at all, or any type of, yeah,
Kevin: has been some air of mystery around Cronenberg of who is this guy?
Will we ever find out?
But I don't know about you, Rob, but I was very happy living
in the mystery indefinitely.
Rob: Yeah, and so, luckily, I was aware of it because we talked about it a couple
of weeks ago, um, but, like, when the name was dropped, I'm going, if I had not
been doing a podcast about Star Trek, I would have gone, uh huh, and then I would
have looked up online and gone, oh, okay, it's the actor who was in Galaxy Quest.
Kevin: That's right, he was the actor from Galaxy Quest.
You're absolutely right.
That also was Daniels, by the way, we, we, that's, that's what we have to
Rob: It, he's a Thermian as well as a Federation time traveler.
Kevin: "Mmmmmwe need your help."
Rob: Urf!
Weeeee put right what once went wrong.
Kevin: But, uh, as far as like answering questions in dissatisfying ways, the,
uh, the final epilogue of this episode, which we, we have heard online, uh,
was actually filmed after the fact.
That originally this episode and season ended with them running off on the
beach, uh, onto their next mission for Cronenberg, or Daniels, or pick your name.
That was going to be the end of season five, when they
thought they had a next season.
But when they came back, and were told that this series was ending here, they
were given a little money to shoot an epilogue, and what we got was, uh,
the, the final ride of Burnham, Admiral Burnham, taking the, uh, the Discovery
de, de upgraded down to its, uh, pre A state with its engines reconnected, um,
sending it off into a nebula to wait for Craft in Calypso, the Short Trek.
Did you ever watch Calypso, Rob?
Rob: I still haven't watched Calypso because they mention Craft so many times.
And Craft is the, is the guy?
Kevin: It's the guy.
So, Calypso, I mean, I do recommend you watch it because it is kind
of the canonical end of Discovery.
And having watched it today, it is!
It does capture a little bit of that, um, nostalgic, uh, ending,
sense of an ending to Discovery.
In the way many Star Trek finales kind of jump into the future and
show you a satisfying end, I don't think Admiral Burnham taking the
ship out is satisfying, but seeing where the ship ends up, in a way, is.
But yeah, in Calypso
Zora, the, the sentient computer of Discovery, is the only person left on
board, and an escape pod, with a soldier inside, is, uh, kind of happens by,
just as its life support is failing.
And Discovery tractor beams it in and nurses Craft the
man on board back to health.
And in the process Craft falls in love with Zora, the, uh, the computer of
Discovery, until at the last minute he remembers he's got a wife and
child waiting for him at home and feels guilty about this almost love
affair that he had with a computer.
And it is well written, well acted.
It is sweet and, and, uh, I think it's a good watch.
Does the fact that Burnham and Starfleet know that that is all going to happen
and that Discovery has to be there for it in the future make sense?
Not really.
Really.
I mean, I guess Daniels had one last trick up his sleeve about knowing the
future somehow, but other than that, I can't explain to you, uh, why Discovery's
last task is to save the life of Craft.
We never find out what happens to Craft other than he's a, he was a
soldier fighting in a war not by choice and Discovery saved his life
and helped him find his way home.
Rob: Hmm.
Well, there you go.
So, well, it was definitely, you know, to have a bit of money to go back and
do an epilogue that is solely focused on Burnham and the only time you see the
old crew all together is in a flashback
Kevin: The slow motion hugging memories on the, on the bridge.
Rob: of how they used to be in their prime.
Um, I mean, it was, it was great to see, you know, a very positive, you know,
happy, successful future for a female, black character in a, in a TV show.
Sci fi is always great at being on the forefront of acceptance, diversity,
equality, all that type of stuff.
Um, and, uh, you know, having their son beam down, who's just about to be
a captain of his own, and, it was very much a, a, a good, you know, Book stays
at home while Burnham goes off to do this, like, Burnham's place on Discovery.
And for me, a little bit of it went, you know, you know, her there being
at the end, and they maybe could have played up more earlier in the
season, her being there at the start.
Um, That's just possibly me looking for an arc that didn't really need to be
there, but, but yeah, it was, overall I went, this is how Discovery should
end, whether I like it or not, but it definitely felt it was true to Discovery
to be where Burnham is and what Burnham is at, and the other characters are kind
of given hints at at the wedding, um,
Kevin: I loved the wedding.
Like that ending on the beach actually worked for me as they in the transporters.
I quite liked it.
Yeah.
Rob: Yeah, I like them finally resolving to try it again and go on adventures
and that was a good, you know, hope.
But to, to see it all from Burnham's eyes and she looks back on her crew
from her point of view, it was a case of, of course it's gonna end that way.
Kevin: If you are looking for a bookend, uh, it, it has been pointed
out in fan circles that the, the series started with the Battle of
the Binary Stars and ended with the battle at a pair of binary black holes.
And so there is a bit of
Rob: You go.
There is some symmetry there.
Thank you very much.
That makes me feel very, very content.
Kevin: I don't have much else to say, uh, about Life, Itself.
It was, it was well made, well acted, but, uh, what I've been saying to
folks who've asked me this week, What did you think of the end of Discovery?
I've been saying, it ended as it ran.
Like, was a true Discovery ending.
Discovery, for good and for ill, was about season long arcs, no
episode ever stood alone, really.
Rob: Not really, no.
Kevin: And, and so we were not going to have a movie length finale that
kind of stood alone as a completely satisfying story, the way we
have had with many other series.
Um, and so, yeah, this, I think, was the ending that Discovery was always going
to give us, and I enjoyed the ride.
I, I, I wish it had been more satisfying, but I, without changing what this final
season was, I can't see any way to, to resolve it any more satisfyingly.
I think this was the end of the story they set out to tell in this final season.
Perhaps if they had known they were telling the final season of Discovery,
they would have told a different story.
But I also think it, that this season was kind of a uniquely Discovery story.
As, as the harbinger of modern Star Trek, Discovery has always been, um,
diversity forward, and, and the value, like highlighting, exploring and
celebrating the value of diversity, uh, in infinite combinations.
The fact that we look back into Star Trek and looking for what is one
story we can tell with our final outing here about diversity, I think
this story that we are, we all come from the same stuff, the same source.
We are, in a sense, no matter, uh, what species we're from, we
are all connected in a way, um, is a uniquely Discovery story.
So I'm glad they went back and grabbed this one.
I think it is fitting for the series.
Unfortunately, like, The Chase, the original Next Gen episode about the
Progenitors, kind of already did that race for the answer, and so this was
always going to be a retread in a sense.
Um, we, it, it did explode it up into season level grandeur, and I enjoyed
parts of this season very much.
Um, so yeah, it's, I think Discovery has always been a flawed series.
It would almost seem wrong if it didn't give us a flawed final season.
Rob: Yeah, very much so.
I mean, yeah, it's weird to see an ending of a show that I've seen most
of, um, that was really trying to, you know, pull on the heart strings.
And me watching it from the outside going, I see what you're trying to do there.
It has completed it.
It got to complete it pretty much on its own terms in way, shape or form,
despite the fact it was taken away.
They've been able to establish it, you know, as you said, they ended
as they've, as they've existed.
Kevin: And as far as knowing the ending of Book and Burnham's story, but everyone
else is a little left to the imagination, I think we will likely see those
characters return in cameos in the, uh, in the Starfleet Academy series that's
about to be set in the same time frame.
Rob: Yes,
Kevin: Uh, I, really hope they get Tilly at Starfleet Academy.
I would love her in a starring role of that series.
Hasn't been announced yet, one way or the other.
Rob: They seem to be pushing hard, you know, Tilly and Rayner, so it
could be a Rayner return as well of sort of like that, you know, you
know, mum and dad on different levels
Kevin: cop, bad cop, good teacher, bad teacher.
Rob: Yeah, hehehehehehe…,
Kevin: He's the hard ass teacher and she's the one who has the deep and
meaningfuls with all the students.
Rob: Yep.
Perfect balance.
Kevin: I hope they can get Tilly.
Something tells me they can't afford her anymore, that actor, but uh, we'll see.
We'll see what we get.
Rob: The future's so bright, we shall see where they're going.
Kevin: So let's talk about, uh, punch ups.
Rob: Punch-ups, fisticuffs, hand-to-hand combat, um, a rare thing within the world
of, uh, Star Trek, but if you look deeper, is it as rare as I just said it was?
And I just contradicted myself.
Kevin: Yeah I had the same experience today.
I was like, oh, stories, stories where, which are fist first, I can't,
um, there's probably not that many.
And now, I start, I was like, I'll get one.
I just want to bring one that I really want to talk about.
And then I ended up with four.
But, I'll I'll focus on one and I'll give you a runner's up list at the end, maybe.
Rob: Wonderful.
Kevin: But yeah, you're right, it has been, like, Star Trek has always been
not just sci fi, but action adventure.
And this dates back to its second pilot.
When they made the first pilot, The Cage, the studio notes famously,
infamously, were, it's too cerebral.
What they wrote for the second pilot was a story that ends with a punch up.
And, uh, yeah, so if you want to see the first punch up in Starfleet, or
in Star Trek history, go back and watch Where No Man Has Gone Before.
But something tells that you brought something else today, Rob.
Rob: I have.
We have already talked about that episode before in a previous, uh, Subspace
Radio, so go back and have a tune in.
There should be a reference to it in the notes because,
uh, Kevin's very good at that.
So yeah, well I, I found two and they're both from my, my series,
because of course they are, because would I do it any other way?
Kevin: We might have a match this week, Rob.
Rob: Heyyyy.
Well, let's, um, oh gosh, let's start with, uh, the one
I just recently discovered.
I'm going Season 4, Episode 2, Way of the Warrior, Part II.
Kevin: You picked the same one as me, Rob.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah, I did.
Kevin: I am really looking forward to talking about this because yeah,
this fight in Ops was different in my memory than in the actual episode.
So this is your pick, tell us about it.
Rob: It's the grand entrance of Season 4 of uh, Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
We have the, uh, return of Michael Dorn as Worf into Star Trek TV
shows, he comes and becomes a new, uh, cast member of Deep Space Nine.
Uh, the Klingons have entered the fray, and they are wanting to assert their
dominance within the Alpha Quadrant, uh, during this Dominion War, and
they're just playing straight into the hands of the Dominion with the,
uh, going up against the Federation.
And hopefully they destroy themselves so the Dominion can just sweep in.
Kevin: I had to refresh my memory about the moving forces of the Dominion War
that were in effect at this point.
So, season three, towards the end of it, had a great big showdown where the
Romulan Klingon fleet, in alliance, uh, under the Obsidian Order's command,
swooped in on what they thought was the Founders homeworld to obliterate it.
And it ended up being a trap, and the fleet was demolished.
And so Cardassia in particular was left in tatters after the end of that episode.
And what we see at the start of season four here is the slow rebuilding of that
shadow of its former self, Cardassia, under Gul Dukat, who is helping the new
interim government pick up the pieces.
And, uh, the Klingons don't trust them.
Rob: No, they believe the, uh, the new council are filled with
changelings and they want them, so they could, uh, uh, get rid of them.
And of course the Federation, uh, the ebbs and flows of Deep Space Nine,
god, I love it, this is a point where they're helping the, uh, Cardassians.
Dukat is trying to protect his council and he's being saved by,
uh, Sisko in the, in the Defiant.
Kevin: Golly, they knew, if they knew, if they could look ahead at what
the future held for Gul Dukat, they might have made a different choice.
Rob: Only a couple more seasons down the track.
Oh, the arcs.
So they race back to Deep Space Nine, and it is prepared to go.
It is loaded for bear.
Kevin: Yes, this is the episode where, uh, the new phaser turrets
and photon torpedo points pop up out of the surface of the station, and I
remember as a young lad being very, very tickled by all of these pyrotechnics.
Rob: Oh, the, the, the circle,
Kevin: gatling circle thing, yeah, whoever designed that should
have been paid double that week.
Rob: Some truly epic space battles of exploding Klingon ships and
phaser fire and photon torpedoes going in every which way direction.
Uh, then Klingons transport onto, uh, the bridge and on the promenade.
So we have, uh, two battles.
We have a battle in ops, we have a battle on the promenade, Odo and the security
team going up against Klingons down there.
Kevin: And the third battle in space going on all around them at the
Rob: Battle on three fronts, on the promenade, in ops,
and uh, in space itself.
Um, we've got, you know, phaser fire matched with Bat'leths, and
daggers, and hand to hand punches, and Odo with no weapons at all.
Kevin: Yeah, I was watching this going, wow, those Klingons, you know,
they're up for, they're up for a fight.
I guess they were overconfident because they came in with their blades
and not their, their energy weapons.
It might have worked out very differently if the Klingons had reached for their
phasers first rather than their Bat'leths.
Rob: Yes, they did use some phaser work, but it's mostly they just
wanted to get in and, and, and cut open their, their enemies.
Um, so we had Kira being stabbed, we had O'Brien nearly killed, we had Worf going
off, you had Sisko, um, Avery Brooks really asserting himself, and of course
Um, Terry Farrell has already established that Dax is quite the, uh, warrior.
Kevin: Yeah, there's a training scene earlier in the episode just to remind
us that she's got what it takes.
That, uh, Worf, Worf finds her Klingon calisthenics training program with
the same skull faced opponent that we saw way back in Season 1 of The
Next Generation on the holodeck.
And, uh, yeah, so she, she gives Worf a few, uh, notes on his form,
uh, to remind us that she can swing a Bat'leth with the best of them.
Rob: And this is all, like, the first two episodes of a new season.
Kevin: Oh they started with a right after this there was The Visitor, Rob.
Rob: Exactly, an episode we talked
Kevin: They quit after three episodes and had the best season of Star Trek ever.
Rob: Take that, Discovery, alright?
Kevin: You mentioned, uh, Kira getting stabbed and for me, I think that must be
what planted this particular episode this particular fight in my memory is, it is,
it is still shocking to see one of our main characters take a blade that size
in the side and, uh, keep fighting for a few moments and then sit herself down and
lean back and grimace, and later on say it's not as bad as it looks and you're
pretty sure it's worse than it looks.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: And yeah I was afraid for our Kira the first time I saw this and now every
time since even though I know she'll be just fine it is shocking enough that I
think it like burned, it seared this fight into my memory as one where we almost lost
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
It really elevated the stakes without, you know, taking away too much
from the fact that these are hired actors at the start of a season,
and should be there all season.
But it's that case of, that's what I love about Deep Space Nine is you've got a
range of characters who aren't Federation.
You've got Kira, who's lived all her life as a resistance fighter, and so
you've got Odo, who has worked for the Cardassians, and there's all this type
of darkness in his past, and how his moral code about not using weapons.
And then you've got Worf in there as well, and the battle he's going on,
so you've got that balance of, uh, of raw power and, and, and years and a
lifetime of fighting, up against, you know, Federation trained, uh, uh, people.
It's, it's a, it's a great balance of seeing where they are at their
levels of their combat skills.
Kevin: The other thing we've got is a great, uh, face to our villains here.
Um, in the end, the villains end up being the Klingons this episode.
And we have Martok and Gowron side by side on the bridge of their flagship,
Rob: The very subtle acting of Gowron.
Kevin: shouting orders and refusing to back down.
Maybe that is part of what rang a little hollow in our final showdowns this
week in Discovery is that the Breen are a faceless enemy by definition.
We got to see one face in L'ak this season and other than that, the
Breen, the the final villains this season were faceless and therefore
I feel like a bit a bit bloodless.
Like they didn't have any emotional resonance in a way that would make me
feel fear or understand their point of view or root against them or for them.
They were kind of a force of nature rather than a character.
Rob: Very much so.
They were very much in the background.
We heard about how horrible they were.
Rayner explained how his whole family was slaughtered.
We hear about all this stuff.
Um, and we, you know, we see a little bit of going, Oh, but
you promised you'd save them.
Oh, that
Kevin: Yeah.
And fair play to them.
The Breen are the Breen.
They played fair with the Breen.
They've always been that way.
I think if they, if they had unmasked them all, we would have been complaining for
different reasons as we are wont to do.
But, uh, yeah, as, as coming back to this episode of Deep Space Nine, villains don't
come much bigger, characters don't come much bigger than either Martok or Gowron,
and we have them side by side together.
This, this episode, this two part episode was actually the
introduction of Martok to as well.
So he starts as a villain, and wow, how far he comes by the end.
Rob: And especially after Um, last week, where we talked
about, um, uh, Apocalypse Rising,
Kevin: Yeah, sneaky, fake Martok.
Rob: Yeah, sneaky, fake Martok.
Kevin: But, well, yeah, the trick that is played on the audience is Martok
is obviously a good guy by that point.
You would never suspect him.
Rob: Yes, exactly.
Um, and then when he comes back, he's lost his eye, and he's a
little bit, uh, worse for wear.
But then you get into the great stuff in Season 7, where they're all, that's,
and, and I've talked about it many times before, I love that at the end,
where you've got the Romulans, the Klingons, and the Cardassians, and the
Federation, all their, you know, different levels of how they see warfare and
celebrations of war and stuff like that, but comrades in this kind of weird, um,
alliance, which I love that development.
So it's not just all cowboys and Indians type stuff.
Kevin: It was surprisingly brief in my rewatch, this fight.
Like, I think in my mind, it was kind of, uh, part one ended with a cliffhanger
of the fight is about to start, and episode two was just all fighting on
the promenade and on the, on ops, and it was just an episode long fistfight.
It wasn't.
It was really, like half of a half of an act, basically.
Rob: Yeah.
about five or six minutes.
Kevin: Yeah, but it was impactful.
Rob: Yeah, and done really well for a, you know, TV budget in the 90s to,
you know, very bloodless in some ways but, you know, we're so used to what we
get on our TV screens now and for the 90s it was, you know, quite out there
Kevin: I enjoyed watching so many of Odo's deputies in action.
Like, so often you forget that there are other people who
wear the same uniform as Odo.
Cause, so, seems like he's the only one most of the time.
But they were everywhere.
They were hiding, hiding behind pylons and jumping out with phasers.
And it was, yeah, great to see that Odo is in command of a crew of his own, that,
uh, can hold up under, under duress.
Rob: They can hold their own against Klingon invaders and
that's uh, that says something.
Odo trains them well and they um, they were cunning and clever and
took some hits and took some falls.
Kevin: In the end, uh, we have Dukat and Garak side by side defending the doorway
to the, uh, the Cardassian government and, uh, Garak's like taking out Klingons
with his phaser and they're, they're trading quips about how distasteful
all of this hand to hand combat is and how they much prefer the civilized
environment of an interrogation room.
Rob: It's very much a case of, um, Dukat is making fun of Garak, but seeing Garak
with all these cuts on his face and blood pouring down, firing his Cardassian
phaser going, This isn't civilized!
is amazing.
Kevin: Yeah, it was great.
Um, it's got it all.
Uh, this pound for pound might be my favorite episode of Deep Space Nine,
this two parter, because it has the action and the action has impact because
it matters to the characters involved.
Rob: And, uh, it definitely shows Avery Brooks in top form as our, as our lead.
Kevin: Oh yeah, this is his first outing with the bald head as well.
Rob: Yeah, it really is.
He was sort of like doing that transition at the end of season
three where he started growing the goatee but still had the hair.
So this is, um, fully much taking on the same physical appearance that he
had for his famous TV character, Hawk.
Um, but you can tell the tone and intensity and the, the, the warrior within
him that the Klingons are really, you know, for Gowron to, take a step back
and go, no, he's not, he's not bluffing.
Uh, I respect this human.
Um, yeah, it's great.
Yeah, Avery Brooks, man.
He's an absolute superstar.
Kevin: Okay, well, let me take you through my, uh, my also rans, and then we'll
come back to yours to finish it off.
Rob: Beautiful.
Kevin: So, yeah, we mentioned where No Man Has Gone before, the second
pilot of the original series.
We've also talked before about the original series episode, The Gamesters
of Triskelion, where Kirk, Uhura, and who else – I think it's Chekov – are
abducted and forced to fight in this triangle shaped ring as thralls with,
uh, control collars around their heads.
Uh, we talked about this, I think, when we talked about Uhura's best
moments, and this is very much as much an Uhura episode as we ever get.
She gets lines, she gets a bit of an arc.
In the end, Captain Kirk is the one who saves the day with his
fighting skills, but she does not go willingly, that's for sure.
Um, and, uh, it's a good one.
This I think conforms to something that we see now and again is when,
when physical combat comes up, there is at least a passing acknowledgement
or moment where our characters from the Federation and in Starfleet go, Really?
Hand to hand combat?
Do we still do this?
Like, what what an unevolved way to settle our differences.
Like, there is a bit there here, uh, from my memory of, of Kirk and crew being,
shocked that this is something evolved lifeforms would do with their time.
Uh, is, uh, is have sentient beings fight each other for their entertainment.
This motif comes back again in Voyager Season 6, Episode 15, Tsunkatse, which is
when The Rock guest starred on Voyager.
Rob: That's right.
He goes up against Jeri Ryan.
Kevin: That's right, so yes, um, Tuvok and Seven of Nine are
abducted and coerced into fighting in a blood sports competition.
Uh, and The Rock is one of the early combatants.
He, he fights one bout and is not seen again.
Again, this episode plays with the idea that at the start, um, B'Elanna and
Chakotay are in the stands cheering for the, from the crowd, for the fighters.
And then as soon as it's revealed that Seven of Nine is in the ring,
and not by choice, they're like, Oh my, I can't believe people
cheer for this kind of thing.
And Chakotay goes, you know, if Seven of Nine hadn't appeared through that
door, we would still be there cheering.
So, who are we to pass judgment?
So, that is the moral message of this episode.
Don't be so quick to judge when it comes to gladiatorial arenas.
And, uh, then my last one was, uh, Star Trek 2009, the J.
J.
Abrams film.
Which, uh, just pinged my radar because I remembered.
Captain Pike on the bridge of the Enterprise asking for volunteers with
advanced hand to hand combat training.
And Sulu puts up his hand and in a later scene admits to Kirk
that his training is in fencing.
But he does a good job on top of that mining rig, fighting
the Romulans with a sword.
Rob: He does very much, very much stand his ground and
parry-and-thrusts his way to victory.
Kevin: Yes, yes.
Rob: And I'm just going to mention one last one.
We've talked about this episode many times before because it is iconic.
But I'm going to talk about the bar room brawl on K7.
Kevin: could I forget?
Rob: Yes, but not in the original.
We're going to blend it with Deep Space
Kevin: Ha ha ha ha.
Well, I'll pick the original just to be contrarian.
I think
Rob: Beautiful.
And we can CGI and FX ourselves, our together.
So yes, Trouble with Tribbles, the original, uh, series episode, blended
with, the Deep Space Nine crew for their 30th anniversary special Trials and
Tribble-ations where we have Bashir, O'Brien, Odo, and Worf in the middle
of a barroom brawl as Chekov, Scotty, and the rest of the crew get into a
fistfight with Klingons that don't look like Klingons, but that's something
we don't talk about with outsiders.
Kevin: The art of the barroom brawl is, is fast becoming a lost art.
I cannot get enough of them, Rob.
Every time a movie remembers, that is something we can do with our
time in front of a screen, uh, I am, I am cheered to see it again.
Rob: It is very, it's very much laced with a lot of nostalgia because it is
very much of a bygone era and a bygone genre that we don't really do that much.
The Western, which of course dominated American television at this
time, that idea of, uh, you know, that was American culture's, you
know, mythology was the Wild West.
And so every, uh, every TV show was a western and always had barroom brawls,
so that was, everyone talks about the original series being, you know,
stagecoach, wagon train in space.
This is one of those clear, direct references of going, it's not just
a fight, it's a barroom brawl.
It's at, it's in a bar on a space station, sure, but it's a barroom brawl.
The only thing we're missing is saloon doors and spittoons being
thrown in each other's face.
Kevin: I, uh, just because you reminded me of it, I'm also going to put in
the show notes for anyone who has not seen it or has not been alive
long enough to see it, there, there is the underwater bar room brawl
fight, uh, from the movie Top Secret.
Do you remember ever seeing that?
Rob: Val Kilmer,
Kevin: Val Kilmer at his best.
1984!
Rob: Yep, yep, yep, yep, um, hilarious, a great film, good choice, good choice,
Kevin: Not much to say about this other than, it's good to see, especially
Scotty, I think, get some punches in.
He's, you know, he talks a big game, but rarely does he actually get to,
uh, put those words into action.
In this episode, a lot is made of the fact that he snaps under pressure.
And, um, we get to see what Scotty is made of when, when the,
when the, uh, chips are down.
Rob: Especially when you've got hot headed Chekov there going, But you
heard what he said about the Kiptyn.
And then you go, Settle down, laddy.
And then for that to snap, you go, Oh, it's great.
It's great.
And then, of course, them standing quite sheepishly in line as, uh, Kirk walks
up and down like a disproving dad going, All right, who threw the first punch?
Come on.
Kevin: So good.
Rob: Great stuff.
So I thought that'd be a great one to finish off when it comes to
fistfights, the ultimate fistfight, barroom brawl, across space and time.
Kevin: Oh, well, thank you for reminding me of it.
It's a great note to end on before we take a little break.
But, uh, Prodigy is not far away, Rob.
Rob: July!
We're hitting into July, so less than a month away.
Kevin: Yes, indeed.
We'll have to, we'll have to figure out what to do.
I, for me, I don't know yet what kind of season Prodigy Season 2 is going to be.
Will there be meaty Star Trek topics for us to talk about?
Season one was actually a great springing off point for Subspace
Radio because it was very much that introduction to Star Trek.
The episodes of Prodigy basically had those topics baked into them,
that we were there to introduce the Borg, introduce an away mission,
introduce the Prime Directive.
Like, all of these things were there on a platter for us.
And I'm really curious if Season 2 will continue in that pattern, or whether
this adventure to go find Chakotay and Janeway leading the crew, whether
that is going to take the show in a new direction or reformat it in a
way, in almost a Discovery sort of way where every season is its own show.
Rob: Well definitely we talked about it a lot when we were reviewing it
is the case of Prodigy is a great show about Star Trek because it's the
outsiders and they're learning what the Federation is and what the ethos of Star
Trek is without having that ingrained in their upbringing or who they are.
So they're the most Federation of Federation members that,
uh, that there really is.
Their, their whole philosophy was based on we've got no skin in this game, but
we will believe what you say and what you teach and how you explore the galaxy.
So to see that within a Federation ship, with a Federation crew, with a Federation
captain, is either going to enhance the show and take it in new directions, or
make it just another, maybe the fault of what happened with Voyager, it had these
grand ideas, but it relied too much on the inherent formula of what that brings.
So there's a lot of hope in my eyes, because I loved season one,
but also a lot of trepidation in my heart going, don't lose what
was so special about Prodigy, yeah.
Kevin: I'll say what it has going for it is characters that I like.
Like, I am bought into this set of characters, so I'm, I'm kind of up for
whatever they do with those characters.
As long as they serve those characters well, as long as they stay true to
them and continue to tell stories that come from the characters.
Rob: And Robert Picardo coming back.
There's never a bad day when you know, Robert Picardo is going
to be involved in something.
Kevin: Golly, yes, there will be, the, the level of sarcasm is going
to triple on this show overnight
Rob: So, yeah, uh, that's us for now for a little bit.
Um, keep in touch and, um, I'm looking forward to seeing what,
uh, the future of Star Trek brings in just a few short weeks.
Kevin: Same here.
Until then, I'll see you around the galaxy.
Rob: See you around.