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What's up everybody?

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Peter Martin here.

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Welcome to the You'll Hear It podcast.

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We have a very special deluxe
exclusive audio only version.

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This week I had the honor and privilege of
being a guest on Kirk Hamilton's wonderful

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strong songs podcast a couple weeks
back, and he was generous enough to share

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it, the episode with us, and we thought
you guys might get a kick out of it.

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If you hadn't heard Kirk's wonderful
podcast, you should go check that out.

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Strong songs, we'll have a link to that.

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But this is the episode in its entirety.

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We're talking nineties
jazz, two thousands jazz.

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He took me back to some really fun
record dates and performances I did back

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in the day, all the way up till today.

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We just nerd it out as we do.

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I hope you enjoy it.

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Hello everyone.

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Kirk here.

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Still hard at work on season
eight of strong songs.

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And in the interim, I have been
running interview episodes like

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the one that you are about to hear.

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This one is with someone who will be
familiar to some of you jazz pianist.

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Peter Martin is no stranger to
the world of music podcasting,

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his own music podcast.

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You'll Hear It, which he
co-hosts with fellow pianist.

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Adam Maness is a great listen and I was
actually a guest earlier this year.

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Talking with them both
about Tower of Power.

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I ran that episode in this
feed a little while back, so

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some of you probably heard it.

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The folks at Open Studio Peter's
online jazz education outfit reached

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out to see if I might wanna have
Peter on strong songs as a guest.

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And I thought, Hey, it's not every day
you get to talk with someone who played

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on some of your favorite jazz records
of the nineties or really of all time.

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Peter is the real deal as jazz players go.

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He spent the nineties and two thousands
working as a side man with artists

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like Betty Carter, Dianne Reeves,
Roy Hargrove, and Joshua Redmond.

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He's also just a killing player.

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You'll hear a lot of his.

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playing in this episode.

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He is man, the guy can play.

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He's also of course, led his own groups.

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You're hearing a track right now
from a recent record of his called

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Generation S, which he recorded over
the course of a single recording

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session at the open studio space in St.

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Louis.

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Peter and I talked about a bunch of
interesting stuff, his musical background,

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what it was like to come up learning the
Suzuki method, how the nineties jazz scene

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differed from the scene of today, and
some of the many players who influenced

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him as a young pianist from Wynton
Marsalis to Kenny Kirkland and many more.

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And I do just wanna note, we had some
issues with Peter's audio file that

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required some creative fixes in the edit.

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Hopefully you won't notice too much of
it, but if you hear any weird levels or

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audio issues, that is what that's about.

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It was a great conversation
filled with a ton of great music.

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I really hope you enjoy it.

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So without further ado, here
is my conversation with.

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Peter Martin.

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Peter Martin, welcome to Strong Songs.

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Oh, what's up Kirk?

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Thanks for having me.

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Great to be here.

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Yeah, man, I'm so happy to have you here.

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It is not every day that we have a player
of your caliber on the show, and I'm

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hopeful that you can impart some of your
chops to our listeners through osmosis.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Thank you.

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I'll try not to overdo it so as to run.

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True music lovers away of
which I'm a true music.

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I'm not just a, a player.

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It's like the old hair thing, you know?

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I'm an, i, I love music and I know
sometimes as jazz players we can

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overanalyze and and nerd out, which
is part of the fun too, though.

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We've done that a little bit
together before, so No, it's true.

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It is.

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It's kind of a, um, I'm
noticing that more these days.

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I think maybe it's because of the
work that I do, and of course you

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guys' show as well, you'll hear it.

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Um, I, there is a kind of a new strain
of music appreciation from people who

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could be snobs, who have the musical
training maybe to be very snobbish about

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what they listen to and who are instead
dedicating their knowledge to kind of

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explaining other like non jazz music and
just finding the jazz in everything since

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so much music, you know, has elements of
jazz or has derived from jazz in some way.

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Yeah.

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I'm starting to realize that there's way
more people that are interested in, in.

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Jazzy things or jazzy elements mm-hmm.

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Or parts of jazz than
actual hardcore jazz.

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I mean, I think when people are exposed
to it and can kind of come to it in

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an organic way through a love of a,
an album and you do such a great job

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of, you know, breaking things down.

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I remember you're so what, uh, episode?

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I think that was the first
time I became aware of you.

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It's such a interesting
place to come at this music.

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And then of course it becomes this not a
rabbit hole, like about 3000 rabbit holes

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that are all interconnected and stuff.

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Uhhuh.

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Um, but it's, yeah, I mean, I think
jazz, if anything, it's influenced

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on so many other forms of music and
the little parts that have been taken

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and borrowed and thrown around is, is
really one of the most interesting.

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Aspects of the music for sure.

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It's something that, you know, it goes
across sampling and it goes across

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pop music and fusion and into, I mean,
just there are so many groups now I,

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all these new, you know, young artists
that I listen to who are insane jazz

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musicians, but are making music that
I don't think I would like categorize

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as jazz, or certainly isn't, you know,
hard bop, adjacent acoustic jazz, uh,

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but has so much jazz, harmony and so
much going on that it is very fun to

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kind of tease that out for people and
show them the links in the chain since.

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The links in the, like,
that's the whole thing, right?

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That's kind of what makes American music
so fascinating and always has going back

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to, you know, the, the 19th century.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Well, let's talk a little bit about your
story about the links in Peter Martin's

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chains since I think some listeners, uh,
won't know, you know, won't know you.

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You, you are of course a brilliant
player and worked as a sideman for

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many jazz luminaries, and I would argue
are a jazz luminary in your own right.

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But also being a jazz luminary
is still being a jazz luminary.

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Jazz is a, is a little more
niche and, um, some people won't

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have, have heard your stories.

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So how about you?

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Give listeners a little breakdown,
just how did you get your start?

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When did you first start playing piano?

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So I was playing, I, I come
from a very musical family.

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Uh, both my parents, uh, were and actually
still are, uh, professional musicians.

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Oh, nice.

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What do they play?

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Like what, what are your Well,
they dad and mom instruments,

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well they musicians primarily.

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My mom plays violin and my dad plays
viola, but he also plays piano and organ.

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And he's a super talented guy.

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Really my kind of just musical mentor
in, in addition to my father, you

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know, but I mean Right, right, right.

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Really just I think a lot of, and my
mom as well, she was, she was, she's

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kind of semi-retired now, but she
was, uh, really my first teacher.

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'cause I started on violin.

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She was a Suzuki teacher.

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Um, and even before I was in
school, she'd kind of bring me along

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when she was teaching other kids
and sort of stuck a violin in my

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hand, partly just to be babysat.

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Um, but that was really my first.

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Instrument.

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And then my older sister was
playing piano, so I saw that and

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my dad played piano, and actually
my mom played piano too, so there

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was a lot of music in the house.

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I was, I mean, I was born in 1970,
so it was kind of coming up in

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the seventies and early eighties.

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It was a, it was kind of a, it was a
great time, like to be bored and then have

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to find something to occupy your time.

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You know what I mean?

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It's like, yeah.

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Oh yeah, sure.

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Uh, and so I love music and heard
a lot of great music, so that was

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kind of how I occupied myself.

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Like the piano was as much
just sort of this like machine

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or video game or, or mm-hmm.

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It was just something that made
noise and I could touch and sit at

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and, you know, play around with.

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And then, um, so, so there wasn't
a lot of distractions, you know?

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Right.

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Um, I mean, there was like.

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Four hours straight of
cartoons on Saturday morning

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for us to rot our brain on.

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But that was a very specialized time.

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Right.

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There was no Roblox, it was
a pretty different time.

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Although think he watched Hee-Haw
every single night, like while my

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mom was, you know, making dinner.

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Yeah, definitely a different time.

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Yeah.

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But I heard music and I really
came up playing, I guess, you

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know, kind of classical music.

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Uh, I mean, not when I was two and
three in first playing, but I, well,

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I, I did learn in the Suzuki method,
which I think is a, it's a really

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important part of my story and a number
of jazz musicians more than you would

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think that came up with this method.

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Really.

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Could Could you explain what the
Suzuki method is for listeners?

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I don't think I've ever
talked about it on the show.

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Yeah.

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Is this a four hour podcast?

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'cause we can do that.

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Yeah.

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No, this will be act one.

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Yeah.

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Uh, Suzuki is a, Che Suzuki was a Japanese
violinist, uh, that I think came up out,

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I mean, I wanna say like the fifties and
sixties, but it really came to the US

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like right around 19 se early seventies.

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Uh, and in fact, my mother was one
of the, one of the first American

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teachers that kind of imported this.

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And she went over and studied
with Suzuki, uh, later on, like

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in the early eighties in Japan.

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Oh, wow.

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And knew him.

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But he wrote this wonderful book
called, he wrote a bunch of books, but

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he wrote one called Nurtured by Love.

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That's all about like learning
music, that same way we learn.

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Uh, our first language, what,
what they call the mother tongue.

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So it's like you typically learn
that from a parent or a caregiver,

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grandparent, whoever is raising you,
you learn English or Japanese what,

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whatever your mother tongue, your first
language, and you learn it at such a

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young age, you're not learning it by.

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Reading it, obviously you're
just imitating the person that's

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giving you hopefully love and
attention and, and mm-hmm.

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Protection in the world and
that's your communication device.

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So it's kind of a method that's based
around learning music in the same way.

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So they start very young in
Suzuki, sometimes even as young

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as two and three years old.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and you don't learn reading
music, you don't learn theory,

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anything you just learn.

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And it started on violin, but
it's been ported to the piano.

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Yeah.

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And cello and flute and
a bunch of instruments.

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Uh, but it's just this great
thing of learning by ear.

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And so it, I think it really helped me
years later when I got into jazz and

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different kinds of improvised music
and trying to learn things by ear.

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'cause I had that tradition of learning
stuff by ear sort of built into me.

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I did learn to read music.

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Fairly young, which was
atypical for, uh, Suzuki.

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'cause I was doing more like
traditional piano, but on the

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violin I always played by ear.

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And yeah, that, that was
such a cheat code for me.

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Uh, in, in kind of a similar way to
some like Gospel Church musicians

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coming up where they, they, they learn.

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In the church by listening and then
trial by fire and imitation and

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mentorship and, you know, getting
looked at bad by the church elders.

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If you're messing up a cord, but
they're not learning, there's no charts.

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You know what I mean?

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Right, right.

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And so it's, if you think about learning
any foreign language, it's, it's a

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very interesting and organic way.

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It, especially if you're doing it at
a young age, it's a great entry point.

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Yeah.

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It's so funny, I think of the Suzuki
method from my own experience with

233
00:10:32,005 --> 00:10:35,410
it as just something, I bought a
Suzuki method book for piano uhhuh.

234
00:10:35,425 --> 00:10:37,045
'cause I am a middling pianist.

235
00:10:37,045 --> 00:10:40,405
You know, I, I learned in school
and, uh, you know, took jazz piano,

236
00:10:40,465 --> 00:10:41,785
but I was studying saxophone.

237
00:10:41,935 --> 00:10:42,055
Yeah.

238
00:10:42,085 --> 00:10:44,485
And, and wish I had
taken it more seriously.

239
00:10:44,485 --> 00:10:46,825
And then later in life was like,
okay, I'm gonna finally start to get

240
00:10:46,825 --> 00:10:51,505
my piano technique together and got a
Suzuki book, which is, it sounds like.

241
00:10:51,865 --> 00:10:55,915
Not actually really, uh, true to the
core of the Suzuki method, which is

242
00:10:55,915 --> 00:10:59,965
more about having a teacher, having a
mentor, and in fact the really original

243
00:10:59,965 --> 00:11:01,225
way, and it's still done like this.

244
00:11:01,225 --> 00:11:04,195
In fact, we did it with our kids
and which was a great experience

245
00:11:04,195 --> 00:11:05,785
to kinda have that next generation.

246
00:11:06,055 --> 00:11:06,205
Yeah.

247
00:11:06,205 --> 00:11:09,115
But, but the teacher, the first
teacher is actually the parent.

248
00:11:09,295 --> 00:11:13,645
So when you go to a like authentic
Suzuki method teacher, the parent.

249
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,680
Learns first, sometimes for months.

250
00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:20,090
And the, the, this, the kid really watches
the parent learning the instrument.

251
00:11:20,450 --> 00:11:23,780
And, and in fact, when we did
it, my wife did it because I

252
00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:24,710
already knew how to play violin.

253
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:27,710
Like for the kids to be able to
see the parents struggle and learn

254
00:11:27,710 --> 00:11:29,720
something that's a part of the process.

255
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:30,830
And they're usually too young.

256
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,270
And then they are, are getting, you know,
amped up to like, I wanna get my own viol.

257
00:11:35,270 --> 00:11:36,140
I wanna try this.

258
00:11:36,290 --> 00:11:39,590
And you start with a little box and
like a chopstick instead of a string.

259
00:11:39,770 --> 00:11:40,670
It's a whole thing.

260
00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:43,370
It's a little, it's a little bit
cultish to tell you the truth, but

261
00:11:43,370 --> 00:11:45,800
in a really, I think, fantastic way.

262
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,700
I mean, Suzuki, like the authentic thing
is a very particular thing, but it's,

263
00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:51,950
it's had amazing results most importantly.

264
00:11:52,700 --> 00:11:56,630
That's so interesting, the idea that
watching your parents struggle to learn

265
00:11:56,630 --> 00:12:00,620
something helps you find a way in which
I could totally imagine being true.

266
00:12:00,620 --> 00:12:02,660
I mean, so much of what
I do now, I mean like.

267
00:12:02,705 --> 00:12:06,005
Learning guitar is, guitar has been
my main focus for the last few years.

268
00:12:06,245 --> 00:12:08,945
I am, I will never be as good
at guitar as I am at saxophone.

269
00:12:09,395 --> 00:12:09,485
Right.

270
00:12:09,485 --> 00:12:11,615
But there just came a point on
saxophone where I was like, well,

271
00:12:11,615 --> 00:12:12,905
I kind of wanna do other things.

272
00:12:13,115 --> 00:12:13,175
Yeah.

273
00:12:13,205 --> 00:12:17,855
And putting myself back in that place
of struggling, of not just being

274
00:12:17,855 --> 00:12:21,035
able to easily play the instrument
has been really good for me.

275
00:12:21,215 --> 00:12:21,275
Yeah.

276
00:12:21,275 --> 00:12:23,915
And I could, I'd never thought of it
as, you know, something that you could

277
00:12:23,915 --> 00:12:27,335
watch somebody else doing, somebody else
struggling with and learning in that way.

278
00:12:27,335 --> 00:12:28,625
It's that beginner's mindset.

279
00:12:28,625 --> 00:12:32,765
And, and a big part of it too, for
Suzuki, is the parent needs to know it's,

280
00:12:32,765 --> 00:12:36,065
it's such an interactive thing because
you go in once a week for a lesson.

281
00:12:36,275 --> 00:12:41,795
If you're 3, 4, 5, 6 years old, you've
got six days of how do you, like the

282
00:12:41,795 --> 00:12:43,415
parent has to be the teacher actually.

283
00:12:43,685 --> 00:12:43,775
Mm-hmm.

284
00:12:44,015 --> 00:12:44,530
That's what it's really about.

285
00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:47,825
But it's not just like, well, you're
fiddling around and just fiddling.

286
00:12:47,855 --> 00:12:48,185
Ha.

287
00:12:48,260 --> 00:12:49,189
Catch that dead there.

288
00:12:51,015 --> 00:12:52,145
Inadvertent dad jokes.

289
00:12:53,005 --> 00:12:56,990
Um, you know, somebody has to be
teaching at home and a lot of these

290
00:12:56,990 --> 00:12:59,720
methods kind of fall short because
you're just having to go by the book.

291
00:12:59,870 --> 00:13:01,370
You don't have the one to kind of Correct.

292
00:13:01,370 --> 00:13:05,030
And especially for violin, it's such a
physically awkward in, I mean, when I

293
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:06,470
switched to piano, I didn't really switch.

294
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:07,829
I started, I added it.

295
00:13:08,345 --> 00:13:10,010
I was like, oh, this is my home.

296
00:13:10,010 --> 00:13:10,905
It just, oh yeah, you get to sit down.

297
00:13:10,939 --> 00:13:11,990
Ergonomics alone.

298
00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:13,310
All the ergonomics are off the chart.

299
00:13:13,310 --> 00:13:13,370
Yeah.

300
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:14,900
Press the button, you get a note.

301
00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:15,950
It couldn't be simpler.

302
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:17,120
It's in tune.

303
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,020
Well, it might not be in tune.

304
00:13:18,290 --> 00:13:20,060
But's not your fault
if it's not, you know?

305
00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:20,990
Right, right.

306
00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:22,040
That's so funny.

307
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,180
But that was really my beginning.

308
00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:24,920
It was like so much music in my house.

309
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,090
It just seemed like a natural thing.

310
00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:27,980
It's like the ultimate like.

311
00:13:28,334 --> 00:13:33,435
Sort of cultural privilege, I think,
to come up in a household of, um, you

312
00:13:33,435 --> 00:13:34,574
know, I mean my parents loved me too.

313
00:13:34,574 --> 00:13:35,415
They didn't just gimme music.

314
00:13:35,415 --> 00:13:36,435
They were great parents.

315
00:13:37,545 --> 00:13:37,755
Right.

316
00:13:37,755 --> 00:13:39,765
Which is not a given either, but
still it's a nice extra thing.

317
00:13:39,915 --> 00:13:40,214
Yeah.

318
00:13:40,214 --> 00:13:43,875
So, I mean, just mu making music
and thinking about that as a

319
00:13:43,875 --> 00:13:46,875
profession and or a vocation
seemed normal as opposed to mm-hmm.

320
00:13:47,175 --> 00:13:50,444
Most kids get into music and their
parents are like, I'm not paying for

321
00:13:50,444 --> 00:13:53,775
you to go to some stupid conservator
man, and, you know, get a real degree.

322
00:13:54,074 --> 00:13:54,885
It's so true.

323
00:13:54,885 --> 00:13:58,064
I, I recently made an episode
about my dad and he was very much

324
00:13:58,064 --> 00:14:00,345
not that he also just treated.

325
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,290
Wanting, me wanting to be a professional
musician as something reasonable,

326
00:14:03,290 --> 00:14:06,230
like, as just a, a career profession,
like a profession that I could have.

327
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:07,700
And it was so important.

328
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:10,370
And I, after that, I heard from
so many people who said something

329
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:14,780
similar and from a few who said the
opposite, basically, my parents never

330
00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:18,230
believed that being a musician was
something like a real goal for me.

331
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:21,170
And so I didn't feel supported and
I've regretted it my whole life.

332
00:14:21,470 --> 00:14:23,540
So yeah, that is, that is very important.

333
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:23,810
Yeah.

334
00:14:23,810 --> 00:14:25,070
But we could go on a whole tangent here.

335
00:14:25,070 --> 00:14:28,070
I mean, I kind of, now I want to ask
about the Orff method really quick.

336
00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:29,060
Do you know about the Orff method?

337
00:14:29,060 --> 00:14:31,220
Wait, what's the difference
between the Orff method and Suzuki?

338
00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:33,830
I don't know it as well, but I
actually did some of that too in

339
00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:35,775
like a. Preschool that I was in.

340
00:14:36,225 --> 00:14:39,645
Um, I remember it sounds, it sounds kind
of similar understanding of it right?

341
00:14:39,645 --> 00:14:41,355
All it's the kids like
mallets and no reading.

342
00:14:41,415 --> 00:14:41,715
Yeah.

343
00:14:41,715 --> 00:14:44,265
I remember having a lot of fun
with the Glock and Glock and spiel.

344
00:14:44,655 --> 00:14:45,075
Yeah.

345
00:14:45,075 --> 00:14:45,315
Yeah.

346
00:14:45,315 --> 00:14:47,985
I, I've taught some students who
learned the Orff method, which is

347
00:14:47,985 --> 00:14:50,205
essentially you the same kind of idea.

348
00:14:50,205 --> 00:14:51,465
A lot of ensemble playing.

349
00:14:51,585 --> 00:14:51,705
Yeah.

350
00:14:51,705 --> 00:14:53,385
Focus on rhythm, your training.

351
00:14:53,685 --> 00:14:55,245
Um, and seems like a very cool thing.

352
00:14:55,245 --> 00:14:58,695
I mean, the thing is like music, it's
like all these different methods.

353
00:14:58,725 --> 00:15:02,175
I, I think, I mean, some of 'em I
think are a little bit whack, but

354
00:15:02,205 --> 00:15:04,185
the main thing is like, music is fun.

355
00:15:04,275 --> 00:15:07,935
Like for kids, like any method where
they're not engaged, it doesn't mean

356
00:15:07,935 --> 00:15:09,405
there's not gonna be different levels.

357
00:15:09,405 --> 00:15:11,505
And of course there's the
talent we bring to it.

358
00:15:11,505 --> 00:15:16,065
But one big thing in Suzuki is like, it
is so much more about how you're nurtured

359
00:15:16,065 --> 00:15:18,225
in music than what your natural talent.

360
00:15:18,225 --> 00:15:22,905
Like they, one thing that's not accepted
in Suzuki is like that some people are

361
00:15:22,905 --> 00:15:24,705
not talented enough to play an instrument.

362
00:15:24,705 --> 00:15:28,395
It's something that's so deeply
ingrained in me, um, that.

363
00:15:28,450 --> 00:15:32,170
Like if you're sur I mean, people like
when they found out my story, they're

364
00:15:32,170 --> 00:15:36,010
like, oh, both your parents, oh, that's
why genetically you were predisposed.

365
00:15:36,010 --> 00:15:38,830
I said, no, I just, they played
a lot of music around me.

366
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:40,300
I got to hear a lot of good stuff.

367
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:41,590
I got lucky on some things.

368
00:15:41,590 --> 00:15:46,300
Yes, I had some talent, but I would say
the talent part was way, way, way less

369
00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:48,095
than people think as opposed to mm-hmm.

370
00:15:48,175 --> 00:15:49,990
Kind of a nurturing musical environment.

371
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:51,220
Yeah, that makes sense.

372
00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:54,280
And kind of tracks with what you're doing
now, which I guess we, we could get into

373
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,490
a little bit later just talking about,
you know, how you've approached your

374
00:15:57,490 --> 00:16:01,510
own style of teaching and kind of, you
know, bring, bringing that forward and.

375
00:16:01,585 --> 00:16:04,645
And offering a lot of people of
different skill levels, ways to learn,

376
00:16:04,645 --> 00:16:08,695
since I agree the, the talent thing
is typically overblown, even though

377
00:16:08,845 --> 00:16:12,235
it always feels a bit rich coming from
someone who, you know, was like, did

378
00:16:12,235 --> 00:16:15,715
grow up with in incredibly skilled
parents and like, has been playing for

379
00:16:15,715 --> 00:16:18,775
a really long time and, and has been
a brilliant player from a young age.

380
00:16:18,805 --> 00:16:19,915
I mean, you know, it is, it's true.

381
00:16:19,915 --> 00:16:22,405
I could also give you stories
about how my parents screwed me up.

382
00:16:22,405 --> 00:16:24,955
There's all, there's those like, we'll,
we'll skip over though, so I don't

383
00:16:24,955 --> 00:16:26,365
wanna make it like it was all, you know.

384
00:16:27,175 --> 00:16:27,625
Yeah, yeah.

385
00:16:27,625 --> 00:16:28,015
No, no.

386
00:16:28,015 --> 00:16:30,055
It's, uh, no parent is perfect.

387
00:16:30,595 --> 00:16:32,785
Um, so how did you discover jazz?

388
00:16:32,785 --> 00:16:34,675
When was, when was your jazz awakening?

389
00:16:34,735 --> 00:16:40,495
So I had heard a fair amount of jazz, like
from my dad's records, uh, from when I was

390
00:16:40,495 --> 00:16:42,115
pretty young, if not from the beginning.

391
00:16:42,115 --> 00:16:46,135
Like he's, he's really a classical
musician, but he's always enjoyed jazz

392
00:16:46,135 --> 00:16:47,905
and, and had a nice little collection.

393
00:16:48,325 --> 00:16:48,445
Mm-hmm.

394
00:16:48,685 --> 00:16:51,625
Um, and so I, I definitely heard it
growing up, but it was more like,

395
00:16:51,625 --> 00:16:53,335
that's dad's music, that's whatever.

396
00:16:53,485 --> 00:16:55,435
What were some of the first
records you remember hearing?

397
00:16:55,645 --> 00:16:58,285
Uh, well, the first ones I remember were.

398
00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:02,370
There was a great box set
called, um, the Smithsonian.

399
00:17:03,030 --> 00:17:05,010
Uh, what was it like the Smithsonian Jazz?

400
00:17:05,250 --> 00:17:06,810
The classic Jazz Collection.

401
00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:07,950
Yeah, I remember that.

402
00:17:07,954 --> 00:17:10,200
And it was like a thing that you
had to order or like donate or

403
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,915
become a member of, and then mm-hmm.

404
00:17:11,995 --> 00:17:16,740
And mail this beautiful, like five LP set
and like I definitely heard that stuff.

405
00:17:16,740 --> 00:17:20,160
Later on I kind of, when I really
started to get into jazz, I dove into

406
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,480
that and it was such a great thing.

407
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,920
Like, like, um, nice Miles Davis,
uh, bags, groove is on there.

408
00:17:35,030 --> 00:17:35,450
Mm-hmm.

409
00:17:35,534 --> 00:17:37,865
With Thelonious Monk, art Tatum.

410
00:17:38,165 --> 00:17:40,024
My dad had a record called Art Tatum.

411
00:17:40,024 --> 00:17:40,925
Piano Starts here.

412
00:17:40,925 --> 00:17:44,885
That's, that's the first like real
hardcore jazz record that I'm conscious.

413
00:17:44,885 --> 00:17:46,930
Like I remember when I heard
that, I was like, what?

414
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:47,975
Like, what is that?

415
00:17:59,555 --> 00:18:01,745
And then Miles Davis, my funny
Valentine, that was a little

416
00:18:01,745 --> 00:18:02,675
bit later, but mainly that.

417
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,950
That classic jazz collection had so much
had Ornette, it went all the way up to the

418
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:12,050
current time, which like the, the craziest
thing was like Ornette Coleman in 1968.

419
00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:14,150
I think that's about when
that thing was put together.

420
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:16,075
So it was funny 'cause that's
like, wow, we're right.

421
00:18:16,075 --> 00:18:18,380
We're going from Lewis Armstrong
West End Blues I think was

422
00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:19,310
the first track on there.

423
00:18:19,490 --> 00:18:19,730
Oh no.

424
00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:24,830
Maybe had some um, jelly Roll Morton even
before that Mead, Lex Lewis was on there.

425
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:25,760
Ah, nice.

426
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:26,600
So much great stuff.

427
00:18:31,625 --> 00:18:34,685
Yeah, it's interesting to put, to
put this in time, you know, you're

428
00:18:34,685 --> 00:18:36,845
listening in the sort of mid seventies.

429
00:18:37,085 --> 00:18:37,145
Yeah.

430
00:18:37,145 --> 00:18:39,875
Which isn't that far after, you
know, you talked about my funny

431
00:18:39,875 --> 00:18:41,795
Valentine, that was what, 64?

432
00:18:41,885 --> 00:18:42,005
Yeah.

433
00:18:42,155 --> 00:18:44,915
So it's only like 10, 11 years after that.

434
00:18:44,915 --> 00:18:48,455
So this is like, you're listening to
music from, for us, something from 2014.

435
00:18:49,265 --> 00:18:49,595
Right.

436
00:18:49,835 --> 00:18:52,715
But I mean, man, the sixties seemed
like, I mean, still to me seems

437
00:18:52,715 --> 00:18:55,595
like because I wasn't alive and it's
like, man, that was ancient times.

438
00:18:55,595 --> 00:18:57,260
But yeah, for sure it wasn't.

439
00:18:57,265 --> 00:19:00,485
Yeah, well, in some ways it was even
in the seventies and so much changed

440
00:19:00,485 --> 00:19:02,045
just in like recording technology.

441
00:19:02,285 --> 00:19:04,685
The recordings just sounded so
different that, that I would

442
00:19:04,685 --> 00:19:05,795
imagine it was very different.

443
00:19:05,975 --> 00:19:06,155
Yeah.

444
00:19:06,185 --> 00:19:10,085
So did you find, uh, a jazz piano
teacher pretty soon after you

445
00:19:10,085 --> 00:19:11,405
started getting interested in jazz?

446
00:19:11,435 --> 00:19:12,035
Not really.

447
00:19:12,035 --> 00:19:15,725
I mean, well, I found some sort of
mentors and some sources of information.

448
00:19:15,755 --> 00:19:18,215
Um, I never, I, I always
had a really great.

449
00:19:18,575 --> 00:19:21,095
Uh, piano teachers coming up.

450
00:19:21,125 --> 00:19:22,535
I grew up in, mostly in St. Louis.

451
00:19:22,535 --> 00:19:25,565
I was born in central Florida,
but I, when we, when I was five

452
00:19:25,565 --> 00:19:26,795
years old, my family moved to St.

453
00:19:26,795 --> 00:19:27,185
Louis.

454
00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:27,760
Okay.

455
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,725
And, uh, 'cause my father got a job
playing with the St. Louis Symphony

456
00:19:30,935 --> 00:19:32,315
and it was kind of a random move.

457
00:19:32,315 --> 00:19:36,155
He was just like looking to,
to, uh, a whole nother story.

458
00:19:36,155 --> 00:19:40,955
Anyway, like that was the first orchestra
he, he auditioned at and it was kind

459
00:19:40,955 --> 00:19:43,955
of a warmup 'cause he was gonna go
audition at some other orchestras.

460
00:19:43,985 --> 00:19:46,325
'cause normally you have to, and he
just sort of got offered the job.

461
00:19:46,715 --> 00:19:48,785
Um, and so it was like,
we're moving to St. Louis.

462
00:19:48,785 --> 00:19:50,735
You know, I don't remember any
of this or hardly any of it.

463
00:19:51,065 --> 00:19:51,845
Um mm-hmm.

464
00:19:52,085 --> 00:19:53,945
But the idea was that.

465
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,010
Like they, through the orchestra.

466
00:19:56,010 --> 00:19:58,650
I kind of was, I grew up around
the symphony players a lot.

467
00:19:58,830 --> 00:20:01,170
I used to go down to the hall,
it's funny, it's like a block

468
00:20:01,170 --> 00:20:02,370
from where I'm sitting right now.

469
00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:02,700
Yeah.

470
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:03,540
Come full circle.

471
00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:04,200
Powell Hall.

472
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:08,100
Um, so I, I was always around a lot
of other good musicians and they,

473
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:12,060
they got plugged in pretty quickly to
some really good piano teachers here.

474
00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:13,980
And I always had, I had
three different teachers.

475
00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:17,070
The main one was, her name was Jane
Allen, was just an amazing teacher.

476
00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:17,160
Nice.

477
00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:18,180
At that time.

478
00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:21,270
And St. Louis still kind of is like,
it was a little bit of an epicenter

479
00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:23,640
for like youth music education.

480
00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:24,030
Mm-hmm.

481
00:20:24,275 --> 00:20:25,620
Especially in the seventies and eighties.

482
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,800
Uh, and even still, so like the band
programs really good, the orchestra

483
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,750
programs, a lot of that's trailed off.

484
00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:33,840
But like, it was just a lot of luck
that I was here, even beyond my parents.

485
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,260
So I had great classical teachers,
but I didn't really have, I had a

486
00:20:37,260 --> 00:20:39,090
couple of jazz teachers sporadically.

487
00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:41,880
Uh, but it was more the classical teacher.

488
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,320
I was listening to records.

489
00:20:43,650 --> 00:20:50,100
Um, and then the big aha
moment was in like 1983.

490
00:20:50,820 --> 00:20:54,750
I met Winton Marsalis, who
came to St. Louis and played

491
00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:55,620
with the St. Louis Symphony.

492
00:20:55,620 --> 00:20:57,870
And it was right around the time
I was really getting into jazz.

493
00:20:57,870 --> 00:20:59,640
Like, I was kind of
like, man, I like this.

494
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:00,090
Mm-hmm.

495
00:21:00,330 --> 00:21:04,020
And he, um, my dad was playing and he
met him and said, Hey, my son and some

496
00:21:04,020 --> 00:21:07,740
of his friends, we were in middle school,
like, have this kind of jazz band,

497
00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:08,910
you know, you got any advice for him?

498
00:21:08,910 --> 00:21:12,150
And he's like, man, can you bring
them down tomorrow to the rehearsal?

499
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,080
I wanna meet them.

500
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:13,500
You know?

501
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:14,940
Um, nice.

502
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:18,180
And that began like a whole,
so we got to skip school and we

503
00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:21,210
came down and, and Wynton wasn't
that, I mean, he was probably.

504
00:21:22,004 --> 00:21:24,524
I think he's like maybe nine
or 10 years older than me.

505
00:21:24,524 --> 00:21:25,905
So like he was in his early twenties.

506
00:21:25,965 --> 00:21:28,215
This is like, he's in the jazz
messengers around this time.

507
00:21:28,215 --> 00:21:28,905
Is that right?

508
00:21:28,965 --> 00:21:31,544
After the jazz messengers,
but not that long after.

509
00:21:31,544 --> 00:21:34,995
I mean, this was probably like,
no, he had already done like his

510
00:21:34,995 --> 00:21:37,215
first couple of Columbia records.

511
00:21:37,215 --> 00:21:37,305
Mm-hmm.

512
00:21:37,635 --> 00:21:40,725
And I was kind of aware of those,
especially one because, well, he played

513
00:21:40,725 --> 00:21:42,105
on a Herbie Hancock record mm-hmm.

514
00:21:42,405 --> 00:21:43,520
With the Vs OP two.

515
00:21:43,575 --> 00:21:45,105
And I was really into Herbie Hancock.

516
00:21:45,105 --> 00:21:46,665
I just got into Herbie Hancock.

517
00:21:46,754 --> 00:21:48,675
And so I kind of knew about him from that.

518
00:21:48,675 --> 00:21:52,305
And then he was a real, it was
like an explosive time for him

519
00:21:52,305 --> 00:21:55,754
because he won a Grammy for best
classical record and for best jazz

520
00:21:55,754 --> 00:21:57,075
record, which had never been done.

521
00:21:57,345 --> 00:21:59,835
And he played live on, I remember
I watched that on like CB.

522
00:22:00,389 --> 00:22:02,010
He played classical and jazz.

523
00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:02,580
Can you imagine that?

524
00:22:02,610 --> 00:22:02,760
Yep.

525
00:22:02,909 --> 00:22:03,959
In the main, I know.

526
00:22:04,050 --> 00:22:04,439
Prime time.

527
00:22:04,439 --> 00:22:06,659
They don't have none of
that on anymore, you know?

528
00:22:06,959 --> 00:22:10,709
No, it's always been the amazing
thing about Wynton, he, um, Monnet

529
00:22:10,709 --> 00:22:13,229
trumpets, the trumpets that he plays,
those are made here in Portland.

530
00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:13,469
Sure.

531
00:22:13,530 --> 00:22:16,020
And I know a bunch of guys who
work there, so they'll, they'll

532
00:22:16,020 --> 00:22:18,989
get seats for when Winton comes
out here, like with Lincoln Center.

533
00:22:19,139 --> 00:22:19,320
Yeah.

534
00:22:19,379 --> 00:22:21,000
And you get to hear him play and Yeah.

535
00:22:21,060 --> 00:22:23,939
I remember even from the first
time I heard him, it was that

536
00:22:23,939 --> 00:22:26,399
album, uh, is it called Carnival?

537
00:22:26,399 --> 00:22:28,050
It's like with the Eastman Wind Ensemble.

538
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:28,409
Yes.

539
00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:31,500
And it's, uh, it's, you know,
him playing classical music and

540
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:33,389
just crushing, I mean, playing.

541
00:22:33,659 --> 00:22:33,810
Oh, yeah.

542
00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:34,199
I don't know.

543
00:22:34,199 --> 00:22:35,129
Circular breathing stuff.

544
00:22:35,129 --> 00:22:37,860
Playing flight of the mumble bee, doing
all this totally ridiculous stuff.

545
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:38,250
Yeah.

546
00:23:00,830 --> 00:23:03,500
And of course that's simultaneous
with he's putting out these

547
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:04,730
groundbreaking jazz records.

548
00:23:04,735 --> 00:23:04,754
Yeah.

549
00:23:04,815 --> 00:23:07,400
So, yeah, he had a big eighties
and nineties for that matter.

550
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:20,840
Yeah.

551
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,240
And I remember my dad was like,
slightly, I don't think my

552
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,890
dad had heard him play jazz.

553
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,835
Um, I knew he, he was just like, I
remember him just saying, mm-hmm.

554
00:23:28,915 --> 00:23:31,910
He's like, man, this is the best classical
trumpeter we've ever played with.

555
00:23:32,215 --> 00:23:35,485
And they'd had like Ma, Maurice,
Andre perform with him and stuff.

556
00:23:35,485 --> 00:23:37,165
And he's like, this kid is Unbeliev.

557
00:23:37,225 --> 00:23:38,995
I'm like, kid, man, that
dude's old, you know?

558
00:23:39,804 --> 00:23:43,764
But it was just fun to meet him because he
was like, um, I mean like the first time

559
00:23:43,764 --> 00:23:44,995
I met him, he gave me his phone number.

560
00:23:44,995 --> 00:23:47,875
It was like, if you have any questions,
I remember he told me, he was like,

561
00:23:47,875 --> 00:23:49,405
man, check out Thelonious Monk.

562
00:23:49,675 --> 00:23:51,054
And I'm like, writing stuff down.

563
00:23:51,054 --> 00:23:51,504
I'm like, what?

564
00:23:51,504 --> 00:23:52,075
How do you spell that?

565
00:23:52,075 --> 00:23:53,280
He's like, for what?

566
00:23:53,725 --> 00:23:53,784
Yeah.

567
00:23:54,294 --> 00:23:56,034
And I went to the rec, you
know, the vintage vinyl the

568
00:23:56,034 --> 00:23:57,189
next day, the record store it.

569
00:23:57,189 --> 00:23:57,350
Mm-hmm.

570
00:23:57,429 --> 00:23:57,790
Oh man.

571
00:23:57,794 --> 00:23:58,105
You know?

572
00:23:58,105 --> 00:24:01,405
So he really was, was a huge, um.

573
00:24:01,950 --> 00:24:05,370
You know, just open things up for
me, even though I knew a few things.

574
00:24:05,370 --> 00:24:09,330
But, uh, he told me about this,
this McCoy Tyner solo on la these

575
00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:11,070
lament on an album called Crescent.

576
00:24:11,070 --> 00:24:13,080
And, and I just always
stayed in touch with him.

577
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,680
Turns out he was doing that
with like a bunch of kids around

578
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:17,940
the country as he traveled.

579
00:24:17,940 --> 00:24:18,210
Yeah.

580
00:24:18,210 --> 00:24:19,680
You know, um.

581
00:24:19,879 --> 00:24:21,320
And then he ended up connecting us.

582
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,040
And I know we're probably gonna end
up talking about Roy Hargrove, um, at

583
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,920
some point, but that was, that first
connection I had was through Wynton.

584
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,370
So I mean, like Wynton was, he really
was the internet of the eighties.

585
00:24:31,370 --> 00:24:35,360
I, for jazz, like he was the, like, if
you wanted to connect with something or

586
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:39,980
find out some information that's, that
was, he was so generous with his time

587
00:24:39,980 --> 00:24:44,600
and, and you know, whether or not there
was a ne nefarious diabolical plan to

588
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,360
like, create little underlings to come up.

589
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,405
That's another, I'm not sure, I don't
think so, but maybe a little bit.

590
00:24:50,410 --> 00:24:52,940
That's not so diabolical though,
you know, that's like, I kind of

591
00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:54,140
get why he would wanna do that.

592
00:24:54,170 --> 00:24:55,010
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

593
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:57,950
But I mean, he was also very
controversial at the time.

594
00:24:57,950 --> 00:24:59,840
I, I wasn't totally aware of that.

595
00:24:59,845 --> 00:24:59,855
Mm-hmm.

596
00:24:59,925 --> 00:25:01,610
Because I just didn't
have a big worldview.

597
00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:05,120
But I mean, in terms of the jazz community
and what he represented, his records,

598
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:07,910
the amount of money they, and press and
marketing they were putting behind him and

599
00:25:07,910 --> 00:25:10,790
his really steadfastness in terms of like.

600
00:25:11,005 --> 00:25:14,785
Defining acoustic jazz
is the only real jazz.

601
00:25:14,785 --> 00:25:16,165
I mean, I'm mm-hmm.

602
00:25:16,166 --> 00:25:18,055
I'm simplifying, but I mean, yes.

603
00:25:18,055 --> 00:25:21,715
There, there was a lot of controversy with
that, which just, you know, made the story

604
00:25:21,715 --> 00:25:23,245
even more interesting, I think, to people.

605
00:25:23,245 --> 00:25:23,515
Right.

606
00:25:23,725 --> 00:25:24,055
Right.

607
00:25:24,505 --> 00:25:27,655
I mean, this was a time where yeah,
you could, you could look at Branford

608
00:25:27,655 --> 00:25:31,585
playing electronic, you know, or
like funky jazz and Wynton kind of

609
00:25:32,035 --> 00:25:33,655
not being into that style of music.

610
00:25:33,655 --> 00:25:36,475
And then there could be a kind of a
narrative of us, like these two brothers,

611
00:25:36,475 --> 00:25:38,095
oh, they differ in their philosophy.

612
00:25:38,095 --> 00:25:41,725
And, and that was some drama that
people could get into, which feels kind

613
00:25:41,725 --> 00:25:43,855
of quaint, given today's standards.

614
00:25:43,855 --> 00:25:44,845
But, uh, it was definitely a thing.

615
00:25:44,845 --> 00:25:46,555
I mean, I remember even
from when I was young.

616
00:25:47,005 --> 00:25:47,365
Yeah.

617
00:25:47,785 --> 00:25:50,995
And I mean also, I mean, like that
next year, he came back and played.

618
00:25:51,810 --> 00:25:54,450
With his quinte at Powell
Hall, just a jazz show.

619
00:25:54,750 --> 00:25:57,090
And that was the first time I,
and he had Kenny Kirkland on

620
00:25:57,090 --> 00:26:00,780
piano, um, charette mt on bass.

621
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,315
Yeah, Jeff t I'm guessing on drum.

622
00:26:02,315 --> 00:26:03,000
Jeff on drums.

623
00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:05,520
Charette Moffitt was
like 17 or 18 years old.

624
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:06,180
Good God.

625
00:26:06,180 --> 00:26:06,360
Yeah.

626
00:26:06,420 --> 00:26:08,310
And Kenny Kirkland and Branford, you know.

627
00:26:14,855 --> 00:26:16,195
And then the next year when he came back.

628
00:26:16,725 --> 00:26:20,565
He had a different band because Sting came
and kind of swooped up Kenny Kirkland.

629
00:26:20,625 --> 00:26:21,195
Right.

630
00:26:21,225 --> 00:26:24,615
And, um, Branford and kind of what you
alluded to, there was a little bit of

631
00:26:24,615 --> 00:26:29,535
a, a inter-family feud between Wynton
and Branford for them to, you know,

632
00:26:29,620 --> 00:26:33,765
he, he, he described it very much as
his brother and, and them selling out.

633
00:26:33,915 --> 00:26:34,815
I mean, he used those words.

634
00:26:35,115 --> 00:26:37,335
He's like, they're selling
out to the music and stuff.

635
00:26:37,335 --> 00:26:37,635
So,

636
00:26:41,235 --> 00:26:41,505
yeah.

637
00:26:41,505 --> 00:26:45,405
It's interesting to think about Wynton
being this incredibly generous sort

638
00:26:45,405 --> 00:26:50,865
of, uh, vanguard of jazz education,
which he very much was when he also

639
00:26:50,865 --> 00:26:54,105
has, you know, later a slightly like a
reputation of being kind of conservative.

640
00:26:54,255 --> 00:26:54,435
Yes.

641
00:26:54,495 --> 00:26:56,805
And he is, but he was, he was out there.

642
00:26:56,805 --> 00:26:59,685
You know, I, I know people who've
had similar experiences with him.

643
00:27:00,045 --> 00:27:02,025
Um, so I grew up actually
in, in Bloomington, Indiana,

644
00:27:02,055 --> 00:27:03,495
like on campus at iu.

645
00:27:03,825 --> 00:27:07,305
David Baker is like kind of a
similar kind of figure in the world

646
00:27:07,305 --> 00:27:09,735
of education, and I'm very familiar
with what you're talking about.

647
00:27:09,945 --> 00:27:12,315
Some listeners might not
know this, like Midwestern.

648
00:27:12,660 --> 00:27:14,220
Jazz scene.

649
00:27:14,340 --> 00:27:14,460
Yeah.

650
00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:17,730
And actually I think people still
think of New New Orleans and New

651
00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:22,440
York as being the kind of two like
central points of jazz in America.

652
00:27:22,530 --> 00:27:22,650
Yep.

653
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:26,100
And don't realize that Chicago and
Missouri, you know, Kansas City and

654
00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:27,900
St. Louis were just as important.

655
00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:29,910
I mean, Chicago was
probably more important.

656
00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:32,190
It was maybe the most
important city for jazz.

657
00:27:32,195 --> 00:27:32,385
Yep.

658
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,520
And once you've kind of learned the
actual history of jazz and scene,

659
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,240
the way the music kind of moved
through the country, it starts to

660
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:40,950
make more sense how somewhere like St.

661
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:43,890
Louis, you know, you could land
there and suddenly be in the middle

662
00:27:43,890 --> 00:27:46,560
of just this huge world of jazz.

663
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:47,160
And there was.

664
00:27:47,395 --> 00:27:51,264
There was all this, um, innovation
going on in jazz education,

665
00:27:51,264 --> 00:27:55,945
specifically, like what Dave Bak was
doing at IU was really groundbreaking.

666
00:27:55,945 --> 00:28:00,475
The way that he was kind of codifying
and learning how to kind of build a

667
00:28:00,475 --> 00:28:05,215
pedagogy, I guess, around bebop and how
to teach bebop vocabulary, that wasn't

668
00:28:05,215 --> 00:28:06,805
really something anyone had tried before.

669
00:28:06,865 --> 00:28:09,355
And there were a lot of people
in that, in that area doing that.

670
00:28:09,865 --> 00:28:10,225
Yeah.

671
00:28:10,225 --> 00:28:13,165
I mean, David Baker, I got a chance
to meet him when I was in high school.

672
00:28:13,165 --> 00:28:15,625
And what a guy, one of the
cool, one of the coolest guys.

673
00:28:15,625 --> 00:28:15,775
So cool.

674
00:28:15,835 --> 00:28:16,254
Really?

675
00:28:16,254 --> 00:28:16,675
Yeah.

676
00:28:16,975 --> 00:28:20,815
And I actually did a summer program
at, at iu, uh, when I was in high

677
00:28:20,815 --> 00:28:21,895
school one year and Oh, cool.

678
00:28:21,895 --> 00:28:24,655
Studying classical with Manam
Presler, who was incredible.

679
00:28:24,685 --> 00:28:25,014
Yeah.

680
00:28:25,014 --> 00:28:25,195
Yeah.

681
00:28:25,225 --> 00:28:25,975
Okay, nice.

682
00:28:26,605 --> 00:28:29,720
Um, but I went over and met
David Baker and, and, um.

683
00:28:30,419 --> 00:28:31,800
He was so kind.

684
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,280
And we even played something in his,
you know, famous office and stuff,

685
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,040
and he was just like, yeah, if you
end up coming to iu, let me know.

686
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,189
And, you know, the whole thing, which is
probably a mistake that I didn't, I did

687
00:28:41,189 --> 00:28:46,530
audition on classical there, and, um,
I, it was one of those, like when I, I

688
00:28:46,530 --> 00:28:50,550
graduated high school in the 1987, there
were not a lot of, there was Berkeley,

689
00:28:50,879 --> 00:28:52,500
there was Indiana, I mean, like mm-hmm.

690
00:28:52,739 --> 00:28:53,909
Real jazz programs.

691
00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:57,810
And I would say Indiana's was actually way
more real than Berkeley's at that time.

692
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:58,110
Yeah.

693
00:28:58,439 --> 00:29:01,560
Um, and then a smattering of other
things, but like Julliard, where I

694
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,850
ended up going, they had no jazz.

695
00:29:02,909 --> 00:29:05,759
They had a couple people secretly
playing jazz and it was New

696
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:07,610
York City, but they had nothing.

697
00:29:07,679 --> 00:29:09,870
So I, I, I kind of miss that.

698
00:29:10,815 --> 00:29:12,495
I mean, now it's like so many choices.

699
00:29:12,525 --> 00:29:15,980
Miami, I guess Miami was
already happening by that time.

700
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:16,360
It was, yeah.

701
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,765
And by the, in the 80, late eighties,
nineties, that was really when it was kind

702
00:29:18,765 --> 00:29:20,445
of picking up like the early nineties.

703
00:29:20,445 --> 00:29:23,145
It had, it was a very different
program than when I went there.

704
00:29:23,145 --> 00:29:26,625
So I, I graduated high school like
almost exactly 10 years after youth.

705
00:29:26,625 --> 00:29:30,015
So in 99, and then went to Miami
right through the turn of the century.

706
00:29:30,165 --> 00:29:30,255
Yep.

707
00:29:30,345 --> 00:29:32,505
And it was, I mean, it was
a, it's a great program.

708
00:29:32,505 --> 00:29:34,665
It was very different, I think in
the late eighties and nineties.

709
00:29:34,665 --> 00:29:36,315
It was like a little more intense.

710
00:29:36,315 --> 00:29:38,145
I think there was more cocaine there.

711
00:29:38,475 --> 00:29:41,655
And it was also just like a
little more studio music focused.

712
00:29:41,655 --> 00:29:44,745
Yeah, man, it was Miami in the
eighties, but it was starting out and

713
00:29:44,745 --> 00:29:46,020
they were definitely very influenced.

714
00:29:46,340 --> 00:29:50,540
By Indiana, like Whitt Seidner who one
of the, the, you know, big guys there.

715
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:53,570
He was an IU guy, which actually
didn't even know when I went there

716
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:56,629
and only found out later that
Whitt was like in the band at iu.

717
00:29:56,629 --> 00:30:01,010
So you can see how people like
David Baker and Jerry Coker, who

718
00:30:01,010 --> 00:30:04,699
I know was, I think was directing
the band that, uh, Whitt played in

719
00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:08,629
when he was at IU kind of influenced
the whole world of jazz education.

720
00:30:08,659 --> 00:30:12,169
'cause their graduates then went on to
right run programs all around the country.

721
00:30:12,169 --> 00:30:15,830
And really quickly, we have now this
huge ecosystem where like, I, I mean

722
00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:19,879
there are a ton of universities with
really, you know, killer programs.

723
00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:22,100
I mean, yeah, I, I would say probably.

724
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:26,340
Like, there's three people that pop
to mind, two of which we've already

725
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:30,240
talked about, that are probably
the most influential and arguably

726
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,220
important jazz educators of all time.

727
00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:34,020
Definitely David Baker, no doubt.

728
00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:34,110
Mm-hmm.

729
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:36,175
Winton, you know, through his, mm-hmm.

730
00:30:36,475 --> 00:30:39,900
You know, his institutional stuff
at Julliard later, but all the, just

731
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:43,800
informal stuff that he continues to
do with inspiring kids and teaching.

732
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:44,550
Um, yeah.

733
00:30:44,555 --> 00:30:46,320
And Barry Harris, you know Barry Harris.

734
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:46,680
Yeah, man.

735
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,340
Like, just in terms of
like the most probably.

736
00:30:50,940 --> 00:30:54,780
Uh, you know, identifiable, uh, system.

737
00:30:54,930 --> 00:30:58,650
Like, like he's the ultimate, like the
Barry Harris system, which to be honest,

738
00:30:58,650 --> 00:31:00,300
I don't even totally understand it myself.

739
00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:01,350
I'm ashamed to say.

740
00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:02,100
Yeah.

741
00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:03,540
I've never spent a long
time with it, though.

742
00:31:03,540 --> 00:31:05,430
I'm familiar with it, but it's,
but it's like one of those things,

743
00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:08,250
it's like that, that DaVinci code
thing, it's like once you, it's

744
00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:10,620
like a cipher of piano, you know?

745
00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:15,000
Um, and once you get it, people just are
like, you know, you talk about a cult,

746
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,980
but a beautiful cult, Barry Harris.

747
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:17,070
Mm-hmm.

748
00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:20,070
And, and the same thing, like, he
taught a lot of people and then

749
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:22,680
they're, they're continuing his
thing on after he's even passed.

750
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,870
So, can I throw a fourth name out there?

751
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:26,010
Jamie Aber sa.

752
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:26,280
Oh.

753
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,710
Possibly as influential as those three.

754
00:31:29,165 --> 00:31:29,445
Absolutely.

755
00:31:29,945 --> 00:31:30,845
One, two.

756
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,460
1, 2, 3, 4. I mean, I,
I went to a Jamie Abu.

757
00:31:36,550 --> 00:31:38,830
I had like, I won Allstate something.

758
00:31:39,129 --> 00:31:40,030
Allstate Sure.

759
00:31:40,060 --> 00:31:40,659
Soloist or something.

760
00:31:40,659 --> 00:31:42,190
Got a scholarship to go to.

761
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:42,850
Mm-hmm.

762
00:31:42,850 --> 00:31:46,690
Al's camp in, um, blooming
actually Bloomington, Illinois.

763
00:31:47,020 --> 00:31:47,440
Confusion.

764
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:47,680
Yeah.

765
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,790
Confusingly enough.

766
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:49,990
Uhhuh.

767
00:31:50,020 --> 00:31:52,510
But yeah, I mean he was, yeah,
he was hugely influential.

768
00:31:53,139 --> 00:31:53,500
Yeah.

769
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:58,000
He kind of, so to anyone who doesn't
know, Jamie Bal, um, was at the forefront

770
00:31:58,030 --> 00:32:00,220
of play along CDs, among other things.

771
00:32:00,220 --> 00:32:02,889
That's what he was best known
for in the nineties, was he would

772
00:32:02,889 --> 00:32:05,620
buy, you know, all Bird, that
was one of the ones that I loved.

773
00:32:05,620 --> 00:32:06,610
Or the Sunny Rollins one.

774
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,020
He would get great players.

775
00:32:08,020 --> 00:32:11,530
I think like Ron Carter's playing bass
on the Sunny Rollins, maybe the bird one.

776
00:32:11,534 --> 00:32:11,665
Yeah.

777
00:32:11,665 --> 00:32:11,784
He gets.

778
00:32:12,125 --> 00:32:13,175
Always the top guy.

779
00:32:13,235 --> 00:32:17,405
So he would get a top band and they would
record kind of just a small group playing,

780
00:32:17,705 --> 00:32:21,365
you know, whatever, some tune and then
just cut out the soloist and you'd get the

781
00:32:21,365 --> 00:32:25,565
rhythm section and they'd buy it on CD or
on tape, or I guess vinyl back in the day.

782
00:32:25,565 --> 00:32:27,395
And then you had something
that you could practice with.

783
00:32:27,635 --> 00:32:31,430
This was before the internet, you know,
gave us thousands of options like that.

784
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:33,965
So it was a really big deal for
people like me to just, when I

785
00:32:33,965 --> 00:32:35,315
was a kid, to just practice with.

786
00:32:35,555 --> 00:32:38,165
But in addition to that, he
also ran these large programs.

787
00:32:38,165 --> 00:32:41,075
I, yeah, I went to his, he, I think
he was doing one in Missouri when I

788
00:32:41,075 --> 00:32:43,175
went, um, one of his summer programs.

789
00:32:43,175 --> 00:32:44,045
And it was huge.

790
00:32:44,375 --> 00:32:46,025
Other big, he would, Midwest, you know.

791
00:32:46,629 --> 00:32:47,649
Have you ever taught at one of those?

792
00:32:47,649 --> 00:32:49,090
I feel like you would,
you could totally be.

793
00:32:49,149 --> 00:32:50,139
I never say one of those.

794
00:32:50,139 --> 00:32:52,689
I never have, but I was really
in, I was just, remember back

795
00:32:52,689 --> 00:32:54,459
to that one week program I did.

796
00:32:54,459 --> 00:32:55,659
I met Pat Lebar.

797
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:56,590
Oh man.

798
00:32:56,590 --> 00:33:00,790
Um, who was like teaching my ensemble
kind of changed my, I mean, he like just

799
00:33:00,790 --> 00:33:02,500
showed me one thing and I was like, damn.

800
00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:04,389
You know, it was a, it was a cool place.

801
00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:06,340
Adam Nusbaum, my first, met him there.

802
00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:06,810
Yeah.

803
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:07,980
I mean, oh yeah, for sure.

804
00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:09,995
Real New York players,
you know, like out mm-hmm.

805
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,370
Out in the sticks in Illinois.

806
00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:11,880
It was fun.

807
00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:12,870
Yeah, yeah.

808
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:13,170
Yeah.

809
00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:14,760
It was a, a big deal and kind of, yeah.

810
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,340
Part of, I think I always called
them the Midwestern Jazz mafia.

811
00:33:17,670 --> 00:33:17,730
Yeah.

812
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:22,470
The kind of, uh, the, the Aber SA players
who would show up at those summer camps.

813
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:23,280
So, all right.

814
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:23,460
Yeah.

815
00:33:23,490 --> 00:33:26,790
Let's get into, like, you are, you've
gone to Julliard, as you mentioned,

816
00:33:26,850 --> 00:33:30,570
uh, it was a classical program, and,
and out of that, pretty quickly, it

817
00:33:30,570 --> 00:33:32,010
sounds like you were playing with Roy.

818
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,330
What I'm, I guess what was the sort
of the story of that, like going from

819
00:33:36,330 --> 00:33:40,380
school to playing with Roy Hargrove
and just how was that experience?

820
00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:44,700
Yeah, so I, I went, I mean I was really,
I was at Julliard for three semesters,

821
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,000
um, full, full disclosure, although
it's one of these funny schools they

822
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,020
send you, even if you're just barely
there, they treat you like an alumni.

823
00:33:52,050 --> 00:33:53,580
'cause I think so many people left early.

824
00:33:53,910 --> 00:33:55,740
It's like, Berkeley,
Berkeley's the same way.

825
00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:59,190
It's like, yeah, didn't Roy Hargrave like
go to Berkeley for like a year or so?

826
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,490
And they're like, they send me all the
alumni magazines and all that stuff.

827
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:03,150
Of course they do.

828
00:34:03,210 --> 00:34:03,360
Yeah.

829
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:03,990
That's so funny.

830
00:34:04,490 --> 00:34:05,270
But I was there.

831
00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:07,700
But I mean, it was really about,
I wanted to go to New York,

832
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:08,880
you know, and I just, yeah.

833
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,500
I couldn't get organized enough, or
I didn't know there weren't a lot of

834
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,050
actually good jazz programs in New York.

835
00:34:15,409 --> 00:34:17,750
Um, and because I got a scholarship
at Juilliard, I was kind of like,

836
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:20,389
yeah, you do that for classical,
but it was a little bit Sure.

837
00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:23,780
Tough place because I, I really
decided I wanted to play jazz by then.

838
00:34:23,780 --> 00:34:25,940
And my teacher at Julia was
like, I heard you play jazz.

839
00:34:25,940 --> 00:34:27,949
You cannot be in my studio
if you're practicing.

840
00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:29,135
Oh, it was one of those, oh.

841
00:34:29,135 --> 00:34:30,500
I was like, this is 18 nine.

842
00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:31,040
What's going on?

843
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:31,250
You know?

844
00:34:31,310 --> 00:34:31,639
Wow.

845
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:34,250
Um, but anyway, I got, I got
to meet a bunch of musicians.

846
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:36,415
Just, I used to go downtown and Sure.

847
00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:39,530
And I met like Larry Goldings
the first week I was in New York.

848
00:34:39,530 --> 00:34:40,880
He had just, there was a whole scene.

849
00:34:41,460 --> 00:34:42,449
That that year.

850
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,929
'cause the new school had just started,
like the new school jazz program.

851
00:34:46,050 --> 00:34:48,389
It was like literally the,
either the first or second year.

852
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,480
And I had a couple friends from St.
Louis that I knew that were going

853
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,820
there, Mike Wilner and uh, Dave Berger.

854
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,230
And so I would go down, I met
Larry Goldings, um, I met, uh,

855
00:34:58,290 --> 00:35:00,120
Jeff Keyser around that time.

856
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,050
Just a bunch of Really?

857
00:35:01,050 --> 00:35:01,920
Oh yeah, sure.

858
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:02,160
Yeah.

859
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,210
And I'd already met Roy.

860
00:35:03,210 --> 00:35:05,820
Roy wasn't in actually in New
York yet, which was crazy.

861
00:35:05,820 --> 00:35:07,920
I think he was, that was
the year he was at Berkeley.

862
00:35:08,340 --> 00:35:09,185
Uh, but then he was mm-hmm.

863
00:35:09,265 --> 00:35:11,070
New York, the, the, the very next year.

864
00:35:11,370 --> 00:35:15,030
Um, and, and just, you know, Greg
Hutchinson, I met him the very

865
00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:16,050
first week I was in New York.

866
00:35:16,050 --> 00:35:18,210
He's from New York and was, he
was actually still in high school

867
00:35:18,210 --> 00:35:21,870
that year, but was like playing
Europe chores and stuff already.

868
00:35:21,870 --> 00:35:22,385
And so mm-hmm.

869
00:35:22,485 --> 00:35:27,510
It was a really exciting time and kind
of the beginning of that jazz lions

870
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:29,400
thing that they called, you know Yeah.

871
00:35:29,610 --> 00:35:30,450
The young lions.

872
00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:31,185
The young lions of the nineties.

873
00:35:31,275 --> 00:35:31,745
Young Lions.

874
00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:32,310
Yes.

875
00:35:32,310 --> 00:35:32,560
Yeah, yeah.

876
00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:36,390
Um, so this was like 88, 89,
but then I didn't really.

877
00:35:36,945 --> 00:35:39,975
They, I didn't actually play with,
I played a few things with Roy, but

878
00:35:39,975 --> 00:35:41,775
I didn't play in his band until 94.

879
00:35:42,225 --> 00:35:42,885
Um, okay.

880
00:35:42,915 --> 00:35:44,655
In the meantime, I had kind of a detour.

881
00:35:44,655 --> 00:35:48,765
I ended up moving to New Orleans,
um, which ended up being, it

882
00:35:48,765 --> 00:35:49,635
was a little bit on a whim.

883
00:35:49,635 --> 00:35:52,665
I had some friends down there and, and
there was a trumpet player named Marlon

884
00:35:52,665 --> 00:35:56,565
Jordan, who was like really being hyped
up, actually a sort of the next Winton.

885
00:35:56,565 --> 00:36:00,525
It was like Roy Hargrove, I think had
just gotten a deal on like, Verve records.

886
00:36:00,525 --> 00:36:01,215
I mean, it was crazy.

887
00:36:01,215 --> 00:36:04,695
Like, young players were like,
yeah, it was a different world.

888
00:36:04,695 --> 00:36:06,375
It was a d were getting
like big, I mean, big.

889
00:36:06,375 --> 00:36:08,775
They weren't like, you know,
it wasn't Taylor Swift, it was.

890
00:36:08,925 --> 00:36:09,165
Sure.

891
00:36:09,165 --> 00:36:12,825
But I mean, it was like real
record deals and, you know, CDs

892
00:36:13,065 --> 00:36:15,975
had really gotten established,
so there was like this mm-hmm.

893
00:36:16,215 --> 00:36:18,735
Everybody was having to replace
their LPs, so it was like a lot of

894
00:36:18,735 --> 00:36:22,815
money and, and it was pre streaming
and, and, um, Napster and all that.

895
00:36:23,115 --> 00:36:24,015
So, um.

896
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,120
Yeah, Marlon Jordan was from
New Orleans, so he brought me

897
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,080
down there to do some gigs.

898
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,899
I met some musicians and I was like,
man, I love the scene down here.

899
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,100
So I ended up staying there and I
mean, I really lived in New or in New

900
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:39,660
Orleans from 90 through, um, 2005.

901
00:36:40,020 --> 00:36:40,589
Uh Oh wow.

902
00:36:40,589 --> 00:36:40,950
Really?

903
00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:41,129
Yeah.

904
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:42,120
I didn't know that.

905
00:36:42,149 --> 00:36:42,509
Yes.

906
00:36:42,509 --> 00:36:43,109
I mean, I did.

907
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:45,779
I went and stayed and spent a lot
of time in New York during that

908
00:36:45,779 --> 00:36:46,890
time, but I was really down there.

909
00:36:46,890 --> 00:36:51,060
I mean, I ended up, um, getting married
and having started a family and stuff.

910
00:36:51,089 --> 00:36:52,799
All my kids were born in New Orleans.

911
00:36:52,799 --> 00:36:53,190
They're all over.

912
00:36:53,250 --> 00:36:53,700
Oh, man.

913
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:54,145
All over the place.

914
00:36:54,145 --> 00:36:56,430
Oh, so New York, St.
Louis and New Orleans.

915
00:36:56,430 --> 00:36:57,390
Have you lived in Chicago?

916
00:36:57,390 --> 00:37:00,270
You've almost got all the four
major jazz cities, or Kansas City?

917
00:37:00,270 --> 00:37:02,399
I, my daughter lives in
Chicago, so I, I Okay.

918
00:37:02,399 --> 00:37:04,049
Yeah, I know Chicago next best thing.

919
00:37:04,259 --> 00:37:05,300
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

920
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,830
Uh, but yeah, new Orleans really
became my, my finish, my, my real like.

921
00:37:11,535 --> 00:37:13,335
Finishing jazz school, you know?

922
00:37:13,395 --> 00:37:13,665
Hmm.

923
00:37:13,665 --> 00:37:15,195
Like I got a chance there.

924
00:37:15,195 --> 00:37:17,445
I met Brian Blade and Christopher Thomas.

925
00:37:17,445 --> 00:37:19,995
Well, Chris Thomas I knew since we
were in middle school in St. Louis.

926
00:37:19,995 --> 00:37:20,085
Right.

927
00:37:20,325 --> 00:37:21,285
He was my friend.

928
00:37:21,285 --> 00:37:22,275
I've been playing with him.

929
00:37:22,275 --> 00:37:27,735
And then we, we ended up playing with Josh
Redmond together, but I met Brian, um, in

930
00:37:27,735 --> 00:37:29,835
90, might, maybe even at the end of 89.

931
00:37:29,835 --> 00:37:33,015
He was going to Loyola School
of Uh Oh, I didn't know that.

932
00:37:33,015 --> 00:37:33,225
Okay.

933
00:37:33,225 --> 00:37:36,705
And this is for listeners drummer Brian
Blade and Bassist Christopher Thomas.

934
00:37:36,705 --> 00:37:36,975
Exactly.

935
00:37:36,975 --> 00:37:37,035
Yeah.

936
00:37:37,035 --> 00:37:38,925
Who played in the Joshua
Redmond Quinte with you.

937
00:37:39,015 --> 00:37:39,345
Right.

938
00:37:39,615 --> 00:37:44,385
And then Brian, they had just started
a jazz program at UNO and Brian

939
00:37:44,445 --> 00:37:46,965
transferred over there, but then
he was starting to get some gig.

940
00:37:47,025 --> 00:37:51,525
We all were kind of getting some gigs here
and there, but the cool thing was we were.

941
00:37:51,610 --> 00:37:54,520
There was gigs in New Orleans
during that time, like good gigs.

942
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:54,580
Yeah.

943
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,590
Victor Goins, who's a great saxophonist,
um, would started hiring us to do gigs.

944
00:37:59,590 --> 00:38:00,970
Jermaine Ba, a wonderful singer.

945
00:38:00,970 --> 00:38:03,100
We played at Snug
Harbor, we did trio gigs.

946
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:03,490
Mm-hmm.

947
00:38:03,550 --> 00:38:09,340
Um, and that actual trio of Brian, Chris,
and myself became kind of like my man.

948
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:11,050
'cause they were like my best friends.

949
00:38:11,050 --> 00:38:13,450
And we would, we would just get
together and rehearse every day.

950
00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:16,150
Even if we didn't have a gig,
we'd go get coffee, play chess,

951
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:17,680
and then like make arrangements.

952
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,630
And we all love the same kind of music.

953
00:38:20,415 --> 00:38:21,585
Sit and listen to records.

954
00:38:21,585 --> 00:38:23,805
And so like, that was such a
beautiful period that early

955
00:38:24,135 --> 00:38:26,565
nineties, um, in New Orleans.

956
00:38:26,625 --> 00:38:28,065
A lot of really great players.

957
00:38:28,065 --> 00:38:30,825
Do you think that, so some of that
is surely just because you're young,

958
00:38:30,825 --> 00:38:34,155
you don't have a lot of, you know,
a lot of requirements on your life.

959
00:38:34,155 --> 00:38:34,215
Yeah.

960
00:38:34,215 --> 00:38:37,140
It's, it's a little easier to play
together, but also you're describing.

961
00:38:37,735 --> 00:38:42,295
A world that does not exist, like a world
where there's enough work to support

962
00:38:42,295 --> 00:38:45,445
this kind of mid-tier economy of jazz.

963
00:38:45,445 --> 00:38:48,055
Where, you know, you mentioned Taylor
Swift now the music industry, right?

964
00:38:48,055 --> 00:38:51,775
It's, you're either making literal
billions of dollars, or there's just

965
00:38:51,775 --> 00:38:53,485
not very many gigs and not much work.

966
00:38:53,935 --> 00:38:57,265
Do you think that just the fact
that there was so much work made it

967
00:38:57,265 --> 00:38:59,905
possible for you guys to play together,
it just seems like that would be

968
00:38:59,905 --> 00:39:03,535
such an essential part of building
the kind of tightness that you had.

969
00:39:03,535 --> 00:39:06,145
'cause that rhythm section, I mean,
I'm, I'm, I'm sure I'm playing

970
00:39:06,145 --> 00:39:09,775
some examples of you guys, but
you guys were in absurdly tight.

971
00:39:09,775 --> 00:39:13,885
Like you had clearly just like
lived music together for so long

972
00:39:14,125 --> 00:39:15,865
to have that level of connection.

973
00:39:16,255 --> 00:39:16,705
Yeah.

974
00:39:16,705 --> 00:39:18,775
I mean, it was, it's, it's
kind of what you're saying.

975
00:39:18,775 --> 00:39:22,465
It was just sort of like luck of
the time of us finding each other

976
00:39:22,465 --> 00:39:24,295
and then Yeah, being able to play.

977
00:39:24,770 --> 00:39:26,780
Together a lot in different
kind of situations.

978
00:39:26,780 --> 00:39:30,050
We were doing like traditional New
Orleans gigs, modern stuff, funk stuff.

979
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,780
We would sort of have our
trio vibe when we could.

980
00:39:33,110 --> 00:39:36,170
Um, a lot of playing with Jermaine
Basil, so getting to play with

981
00:39:36,170 --> 00:39:39,170
a great singer where you gotta
like change keys Yeah, sure.

982
00:39:39,170 --> 00:39:39,545
And all this weird stuff.

983
00:39:40,035 --> 00:39:40,935
Um, and.

984
00:39:41,775 --> 00:39:45,765
Yeah, I think the economics of it,
I, I think we, we forget about, or

985
00:39:45,765 --> 00:39:47,505
we take that for granted, you know?

986
00:39:47,805 --> 00:39:51,255
Um, and it was a time, I mean, it was
like we were just doing a hundred dollars

987
00:39:51,255 --> 00:39:53,985
gigs, but the thing is, like those
gigs are still a hundred dollars gigs.

988
00:39:54,315 --> 00:39:57,855
It's like, but a hundred dollars
was, you know, that's what's

989
00:39:57,860 --> 00:39:58,670
crazy about it doesn't go as far.

990
00:39:58,670 --> 00:39:58,910
Yeah.

991
00:39:58,910 --> 00:39:59,150
Yeah.

992
00:39:59,150 --> 00:40:00,555
It's like the gig.

993
00:40:00,585 --> 00:40:03,685
So at that time, that was a pretty
good gig, you know, and mm-hmm.

994
00:40:03,765 --> 00:40:07,635
We, we were, and then we were also
starting to do some touring even before

995
00:40:07,635 --> 00:40:09,195
like the Roy and the Joshua thing.

996
00:40:09,195 --> 00:40:14,265
Like, we were, like, in 91, I got a
chance to play with, um, Betty Carter,

997
00:40:20,890 --> 00:40:24,255
who was, that really was like
my graduate school, you know?

998
00:40:24,255 --> 00:40:27,435
Like that was, that's when I really
started to like, oh, all the stuff

999
00:40:27,435 --> 00:40:30,735
I should have learned, or I think,
I know now you're in the big time.

1000
00:40:30,735 --> 00:40:35,535
You know, because she was, she was legend
status by that point, and she was also

1001
00:40:35,715 --> 00:40:39,975
kind of, you know, she had been on the
Tonight Show and she had this record that.

1002
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:43,799
The poster for, it was in one of
the kids' walls on the Cosby Show in

1003
00:40:43,799 --> 00:40:45,660
like the late eighties, Betty Carter.

1004
00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:48,810
You'd see it like every, I mean
like she was a thing then, right?

1005
00:40:48,810 --> 00:40:50,370
It was very rare in jazz.

1006
00:40:50,430 --> 00:40:53,370
And so when I got a chance to do that
gig, I was 20 years old, but I was just

1007
00:40:53,370 --> 00:40:54,779
like, oh my God, this is Betty Carter.

1008
00:40:59,310 --> 00:41:02,100
And so I was living in New Orleans and
she'd always kinda had a requirement

1009
00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:05,459
that you, everybody would always live
in New York, you know, her groups.

1010
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:05,609
Mm-hmm.

1011
00:41:05,850 --> 00:41:08,459
And so I kind of just
didn't talk about it a lot.

1012
00:41:08,459 --> 00:41:12,419
And I'd stay with Greg, Greg in Brooklyn
and you know, I'd stay his apartment and

1013
00:41:12,419 --> 00:41:16,229
then we were on the road that whole year
anyway, so it didn't really matter, uh,

1014
00:41:16,229 --> 00:41:18,354
where I was living, but like that was.

1015
00:41:19,020 --> 00:41:20,160
That was just crazy.

1016
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,220
Like what I learned and like,
we're playing Big fa, we,

1017
00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:24,420
we did a seven week tour.

1018
00:41:24,420 --> 00:41:26,070
I mean, talk about stuff
that doesn't happen anymore.

1019
00:41:26,310 --> 00:41:26,370
Yeah.

1020
00:41:26,370 --> 00:41:29,010
We did a, it was my
first European tour ever.

1021
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:33,150
First time going to Europe, a seven week
tour, and I mean like hitting almost

1022
00:41:33,150 --> 00:41:38,130
every night and like trains and, and
like just, you know, random flights.

1023
00:41:38,130 --> 00:41:39,510
Like, wait, which airport are we?

1024
00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:42,750
I mean, paper, itinerary
paper, everything.

1025
00:41:43,035 --> 00:41:43,920
It, it was great.

1026
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,290
It was great and, you know, um.

1027
00:41:46,694 --> 00:41:50,895
That was probably the biggest
amount of growth that I've ever had.

1028
00:41:50,895 --> 00:41:55,245
But then I came back to New Orleans
and was like playing with Brian and

1029
00:41:55,245 --> 00:41:58,515
Chris again and like doing this stuff
and like we're bringing all these

1030
00:41:58,515 --> 00:42:00,854
different things that we learned back.

1031
00:42:00,854 --> 00:42:02,174
So it was, it was really just.

1032
00:42:02,860 --> 00:42:07,025
A, a perfect storm of, for me, in terms
of like, just growth and joy in my life.

1033
00:42:07,145 --> 00:42:08,345
Yeah, I can imagine.

1034
00:42:08,345 --> 00:42:09,155
That sounds great.

1035
00:42:09,155 --> 00:42:12,035
I mean, especially given that you
were playing for, you know, audiences

1036
00:42:12,035 --> 00:42:14,045
playing real jazz for audiences.

1037
00:42:14,075 --> 00:42:14,315
Yeah.

1038
00:42:14,405 --> 00:42:17,285
Some, you know, guys I went to school
with, so I went to school in Miami, right.

1039
00:42:17,285 --> 00:42:19,565
And the cruise ships
would run out of there.

1040
00:42:19,565 --> 00:42:23,555
So a very common thing to do would be,
over the summer you'd get your piano

1041
00:42:23,555 --> 00:42:26,285
trio a gig on like a carnival cruise.

1042
00:42:26,375 --> 00:42:29,105
And that was a way to have
what you're describing, you

1043
00:42:29,105 --> 00:42:30,965
know, a like eight week tour.

1044
00:42:31,205 --> 00:42:31,265
Yeah.

1045
00:42:31,265 --> 00:42:34,595
Essentially you're playing every
night, but you're on a cruise ship.

1046
00:42:34,595 --> 00:42:36,815
You're kind of playing for people
who maybe aren't that interested.

1047
00:42:36,965 --> 00:42:40,865
So it's, it's like, it's not quite
as much fun, but it is kind of the

1048
00:42:40,865 --> 00:42:45,035
way that a group, especially a jazz
group, can kind of build that chemistry

1049
00:42:45,035 --> 00:42:46,115
and learn how to play together.

1050
00:42:46,175 --> 00:42:50,195
And I'm sure the amount of learning that
you do is just, is just totally wild.

1051
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:50,260
Yeah.

1052
00:42:50,260 --> 00:42:51,695
It's, yeah.

1053
00:42:51,695 --> 00:42:52,175
I don't know.

1054
00:42:52,175 --> 00:42:55,865
What do you think about the fact that
it's so difficult for young players

1055
00:42:55,865 --> 00:42:57,995
now to have the same experience?

1056
00:42:58,325 --> 00:43:01,295
Well, I mean, you know, it, it's.

1057
00:43:02,395 --> 00:43:06,600
I, I, I, I don't like it, but I'm
also like, you can't turn time back.

1058
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,860
It's kind of like, what I do want to have
is for young players, and maybe they're

1059
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,480
doing this more than I realize is to
find their version of that for today.

1060
00:43:15,779 --> 00:43:15,839
Yeah.

1061
00:43:15,839 --> 00:43:16,410
You know what I mean?

1062
00:43:16,650 --> 00:43:18,779
Because everything is, is different.

1063
00:43:18,779 --> 00:43:20,100
And that's not always a bad thing.

1064
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:22,154
I mean, we look back on those
days as being like, yeah.

1065
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,299
I mean there, there was a
lot of problems in it too.

1066
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,370
And a lot of like, there was a lot of
like gatekeeping in a way that I think the

1067
00:43:29,370 --> 00:43:34,080
younger musicians now are so much better
about, you know, overcoming, um mm-hmm.

1068
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:36,450
And not just musical, just
like, I mean, it was such a

1069
00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:38,370
good old boys network, you know?

1070
00:43:38,610 --> 00:43:41,580
And so I think a lot of things are
better, but I mean, in terms of like.

1071
00:43:42,765 --> 00:43:45,495
The, the core elements,
it's beyond just Jet.

1072
00:43:45,495 --> 00:43:47,834
Like, what we had was not just a chance
to play together, but we would hang

1073
00:43:47,834 --> 00:43:49,484
together, we'd listen to music together.

1074
00:43:49,484 --> 00:43:53,774
I think that's why your podcast and,
and hopefully ours and these other

1075
00:43:53,774 --> 00:43:57,705
kind of musical geekery podcasts, I
think are so important because for

1076
00:43:57,705 --> 00:44:00,915
a lot of people, that's their, for
younger people and for older people,

1077
00:44:01,125 --> 00:44:05,145
that's their version of what we used
to have just hanging around listening

1078
00:44:05,145 --> 00:44:08,055
to music and talking about, wait,
what, what was that chord you played?

1079
00:44:08,384 --> 00:44:09,134
Man, that felt great.

1080
00:44:09,134 --> 00:44:09,404
Really?

1081
00:44:09,404 --> 00:44:11,669
I love the way it, it segues to this.

1082
00:44:11,669 --> 00:44:11,870
Mm-hmm.

1083
00:44:11,950 --> 00:44:14,084
Or listen to the way they
mic the drum, whatever it is.

1084
00:44:14,084 --> 00:44:15,975
Like, we would do all that.

1085
00:44:15,975 --> 00:44:20,564
And it's like that, that
communal, cultural, uh,

1086
00:44:20,774 --> 00:44:23,234
attenuation to the music mm-hmm.

1087
00:44:23,236 --> 00:44:23,834
Is so important.

1088
00:44:23,834 --> 00:44:26,745
And so a lot of times people
are like, well, everybody's

1089
00:44:26,745 --> 00:44:28,334
so separate in social media.

1090
00:44:28,334 --> 00:44:31,634
And it's like, yeah, but that's gonna be
hard to put this genie back in the bottle.

1091
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:31,870
Yeah.

1092
00:44:32,294 --> 00:44:32,564
Yeah.

1093
00:44:32,564 --> 00:44:34,484
So it's like, how do we use the podcast?

1094
00:44:34,484 --> 00:44:35,444
How do you use Instagram?

1095
00:44:35,444 --> 00:44:35,955
It's like, yeah.

1096
00:44:36,345 --> 00:44:39,194
Kids don't have, as, as many
young people, don't have as many.

1097
00:44:39,540 --> 00:44:43,529
Of these communal, maybe performance
or touring opportunities, but they

1098
00:44:43,529 --> 00:44:48,959
also have the ability to like DM
Robert Glasper and he might answer

1099
00:44:48,959 --> 00:44:50,040
you back, you know what I mean?

1100
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,600
Like I had to wait for No, yeah, for sure.

1101
00:44:51,839 --> 00:44:55,259
Kenny Kirkland once a year to come through
town and, and maybe I could get his phone

1102
00:44:55,259 --> 00:44:56,910
number, see if he'd dance with a number.

1103
00:44:56,910 --> 00:45:00,419
But I mean, like the communication
stuff actually should be and, and

1104
00:45:00,419 --> 00:45:03,660
is better, but it's just everybody's
still trying to figure out how to

1105
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:08,129
harness it and how to work through
just the cacophony of, of information

1106
00:45:08,129 --> 00:45:09,750
being thrown everywhere, you know?

1107
00:45:09,899 --> 00:45:10,500
Like we had that.

1108
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:11,004
Yeah, no, yeah.

1109
00:45:11,189 --> 00:45:12,400
We had that advantage of like.

1110
00:45:13,185 --> 00:45:15,315
Listening to one record, you know?

1111
00:45:15,645 --> 00:45:15,795
Mm-hmm.

1112
00:45:16,185 --> 00:45:17,775
Um, just over and over again.

1113
00:45:18,345 --> 00:45:21,404
The sheer volume is definitely,
is definitely difficult.

1114
00:45:21,404 --> 00:45:24,555
And that's, you know, true across the
board with like every type of media now.

1115
00:45:24,555 --> 00:45:24,615
Yeah.

1116
00:45:24,975 --> 00:45:25,725
But it is true.

1117
00:45:25,725 --> 00:45:29,565
I mean, it's very easy to look back
at what you're describing, you know,

1118
00:45:29,565 --> 00:45:31,515
this heyday in the nineties and Yeah.

1119
00:45:31,634 --> 00:45:34,904
And what was clearly like a really,
a really amazing time in a lot of

1120
00:45:34,904 --> 00:45:37,815
ways, uh, for you personally too,
and just be like, ah, that was,

1121
00:45:38,295 --> 00:45:41,025
that was the best, uh, 'cause it
does sound like it was pretty great.

1122
00:45:41,565 --> 00:45:41,625
Yeah.

1123
00:45:41,625 --> 00:45:41,750
But, um.

1124
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:45,570
It's good to look at that and kind
of try to understand what was good

1125
00:45:45,570 --> 00:45:49,260
about it and how to transpose that
onto the world we now live in.

1126
00:45:49,260 --> 00:45:51,270
Because yeah, like you can't
change the way things are.

1127
00:45:51,390 --> 00:45:56,760
We can't rebuild the whatever
economy of compact discs in 2025.

1128
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:57,720
It's just not gonna happen.

1129
00:45:58,140 --> 00:46:02,070
And uh, and so, uh, it's more about
thinking, thinking through what it was

1130
00:46:02,070 --> 00:46:04,800
spec, what was special about what we
were doing, because I completely agree

1131
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,270
with you and I think you'll hear it.

1132
00:46:06,270 --> 00:46:10,110
Your show really does, uh, something
very similar to strong songs and trying

1133
00:46:10,110 --> 00:46:13,320
to, you know, get back to that feeling.

1134
00:46:13,470 --> 00:46:16,770
'cause I, you know, I learned just
as much when I was in school sitting

1135
00:46:16,770 --> 00:46:19,650
around with the guys I was in school
with, listening to records and

1136
00:46:19,650 --> 00:46:21,090
talking about them as I did in class.

1137
00:46:21,090 --> 00:46:22,170
And I learned a lot in class.

1138
00:46:22,170 --> 00:46:23,100
It was a great school.

1139
00:46:23,130 --> 00:46:23,455
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1140
00:46:23,460 --> 00:46:25,920
It's just, I learned a ton
from that experience for sure.

1141
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,610
And, uh, yeah, there are ways, there are
ways you can have that experience now.

1142
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:29,790
Yeah.

1143
00:46:29,790 --> 00:46:32,520
Because like, we look back and
it's like, oh, you know, I met

1144
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,590
Wynton, then I met Kenny Kirkland
and he showed me these things.

1145
00:46:34,590 --> 00:46:40,290
Like, that was great, but what's even
better is if Kenny Kirkland, you know.

1146
00:46:40,770 --> 00:46:42,000
RIP Kenny Kirkley.

1147
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,819
But if he was still around to do
a podcast, breaking this stuff

1148
00:46:44,819 --> 00:46:47,460
down, then every young pianist
that's interested could hear that.

1149
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,759
They don't just have to be lucky,
like me and my dad happens to know

1150
00:46:50,759 --> 00:46:51,720
Whitton 'cause they work together.

1151
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:52,950
Well, you know, it's like Right.

1152
00:46:52,980 --> 00:46:55,560
Or like you happen to live in
Bloomington, Indiana or St.

1153
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:55,830
Louis.

1154
00:46:55,830 --> 00:46:57,480
Like you happen to live somewhere
that people come through.

1155
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,779
You could live in whatever, you know,
rural Nebraska or some, somewhere, just

1156
00:47:00,779 --> 00:47:05,100
a long ways out and still be able to,
through the internet, get access to that.

1157
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:05,160
Yeah.

1158
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,900
Which is, you know, pretty awesome.

1159
00:47:06,990 --> 00:47:07,710
Yep, for sure.

1160
00:47:08,835 --> 00:47:09,405
So, all right.

1161
00:47:09,405 --> 00:47:11,295
So you play with Roy,
you play with Joshua.

1162
00:47:11,295 --> 00:47:13,305
I guess we can kind of
conclude on this part.

1163
00:47:13,305 --> 00:47:16,215
'cause this is like the, this
is just like peak nineties jazz.

1164
00:47:16,215 --> 00:47:19,365
This is when, I mean, this is the stuff
that I, when I was a teenager, was

1165
00:47:19,365 --> 00:47:21,045
listening to and was just knocking me out.

1166
00:47:21,045 --> 00:47:23,715
It was like the hottest new
players, Joshua Redmond, who

1167
00:47:23,715 --> 00:47:24,795
I've talked about on the show.

1168
00:47:25,065 --> 00:47:25,965
Yeah, plenty of times.

1169
00:47:25,965 --> 00:47:28,245
One of the most exciting
sax players I've ever heard.

1170
00:47:28,245 --> 00:47:30,645
I just like love his
playing so much personality.

1171
00:47:30,645 --> 00:47:34,635
That group, that quintet that you
had with him was just so much fun.

1172
00:47:34,725 --> 00:47:38,115
And yeah, I'd just love to hear any, I
guess, any additional thoughts on, on this

1173
00:47:38,115 --> 00:47:41,385
period, on the kind of transition and just
what it was like playing in that group?

1174
00:47:41,445 --> 00:47:41,985
It was great.

1175
00:47:41,985 --> 00:47:44,955
I mean, I had, you know, I did the
Betty Carter, then we did a thing called

1176
00:47:44,985 --> 00:47:47,445
Jazz Futures, which was the same trio.

1177
00:47:47,475 --> 00:47:48,705
Me, Chris and Brian.

1178
00:47:48,705 --> 00:47:49,065
Right, right.

1179
00:47:49,125 --> 00:47:52,725
Uh, but then with, uh, Nicholas Peyton,
we were working, that's another one I

1180
00:47:52,725 --> 00:47:53,925
should mention in New Orleans as well.

1181
00:47:53,925 --> 00:47:54,075
Yeah.

1182
00:47:54,545 --> 00:47:56,195
I thought you played with Nicholas Payton.

1183
00:47:56,195 --> 00:47:56,270
That's right.

1184
00:47:56,270 --> 00:47:56,350
Yeah.

1185
00:47:56,350 --> 00:47:57,005
He was a big part.

1186
00:47:57,005 --> 00:47:59,345
I mean, he's a couple years younger,
so like when we first started

1187
00:47:59,345 --> 00:48:01,865
playing with him, we were like 20
and he was in high school still.

1188
00:48:02,135 --> 00:48:02,675
Oh, wow.

1189
00:48:02,675 --> 00:48:06,035
And this is of course for listeners
Nicholas Payton, a great jazz trumpeter.

1190
00:48:06,035 --> 00:48:06,125
Yes.

1191
00:48:06,155 --> 00:48:07,505
Who, uh, outta New Orleans.

1192
00:48:07,505 --> 00:48:10,865
Really just another great player of
the, the same sort of time period.

1193
00:48:10,895 --> 00:48:11,165
Yeah.

1194
00:48:11,465 --> 00:48:14,615
And then I played, started
playing with Roy in 93, at the

1195
00:48:14,615 --> 00:48:16,565
end of 93 and all through 94.

1196
00:48:16,565 --> 00:48:19,985
And that was a beautiful, I like
that was not with the same rhythm.

1197
00:48:20,045 --> 00:48:21,845
That was not with Chris and Brian.

1198
00:48:21,845 --> 00:48:21,855
Mm-hmm.

1199
00:48:21,855 --> 00:48:21,910
Um.

1200
00:48:22,545 --> 00:48:24,674
That was at Rodney Whitaker
and Greg Hutchinson, who I kind

1201
00:48:24,674 --> 00:48:27,765
of reunited with from playing
with Betty Carter and meeting.

1202
00:48:27,915 --> 00:48:28,125
Yeah.

1203
00:48:28,125 --> 00:48:29,714
And man, you sent me this video.

1204
00:48:29,714 --> 00:48:31,275
I'll be playing a clip
from this right now.

1205
00:48:31,275 --> 00:48:34,904
This live performance in Germany
with both Ron Blake and Josh Redmond

1206
00:48:34,904 --> 00:48:37,424
on tenor sax along with Roy on
trumpet in that rhythm section.

1207
00:48:37,725 --> 00:48:40,665
Just absolutely killing
what a performance.

1208
00:48:49,545 --> 00:48:50,205
Oh yeah.

1209
00:48:50,505 --> 00:48:54,255
Well, and actually that gig or one of
the gigs that same week, like I was

1210
00:48:54,255 --> 00:48:56,355
playing with Roy then and Oh yeah.

1211
00:48:56,355 --> 00:48:57,165
And Ron Blake was on.

1212
00:48:57,375 --> 00:49:02,205
Like that's probably, I mean this is
not to like, that was the most exciting

1213
00:49:02,745 --> 00:49:04,815
like jazz group I have ever played with.

1214
00:49:04,845 --> 00:49:05,984
Redmond solo.

1215
00:49:06,075 --> 00:49:07,275
He just goes and goes.

1216
00:49:07,275 --> 00:49:08,745
At one point he kind of stops.

1217
00:49:08,745 --> 00:49:11,745
It's this amazing moment
where he's like, slows down.

1218
00:49:12,020 --> 00:49:15,950
And he, he's still playing his solo, but
he just doesn't build it the whole way.

1219
00:49:15,950 --> 00:49:16,580
He kind of stops.

1220
00:49:16,580 --> 00:49:18,020
He takes some time, he leaves some space.

1221
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:18,320
Yeah.

1222
00:49:18,350 --> 00:49:19,095
Builds it back up,

1223
00:49:41,180 --> 00:49:41,509
man.

1224
00:49:41,509 --> 00:49:44,779
I mean, he was, what, he was
pretty young at that time and uh,

1225
00:49:44,779 --> 00:49:45,799
he has like a full head of hair.

1226
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:46,100
Yeah.

1227
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:48,890
It's, uh, it's funny to see him
then he just, man, he sounds good.

1228
00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:51,049
And yeah, Ron Blake
sounds brilliant as well.

1229
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:51,980
What a group.

1230
00:49:51,980 --> 00:49:52,040
Yeah.

1231
00:49:52,070 --> 00:49:53,000
And that was right.

1232
00:49:53,029 --> 00:49:55,400
That kind of was the reason.

1233
00:49:55,490 --> 00:49:57,650
Um, I mean, I, I actually
knew Joshua for a while.

1234
00:49:57,740 --> 00:50:00,920
In fact, Josh came down to New Orleans
a couple times and played with us.

1235
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:02,210
So we all kind of knew each other.

1236
00:50:02,530 --> 00:50:06,700
But when I was playing with Roy that
summer, that summer of 94, Joshua did a

1237
00:50:06,700 --> 00:50:11,440
couple guest things, like whatever that
gig was, and we sort of started talking

1238
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,450
and he knew about me and Chris and Brian.

1239
00:50:13,450 --> 00:50:16,030
And Brian Blade was already
playing with Joshua then, and Brad

1240
00:50:16,030 --> 00:50:17,560
Meld was on piano in his band.

1241
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:18,550
Right.

1242
00:50:18,550 --> 00:50:21,880
And this is like right around, so
Redmond won the Thelonious Monk

1243
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,650
competition, which you also won, right.

1244
00:50:23,650 --> 00:50:26,470
This is, and that was kind of a big,
in the nineties, especially like

1245
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:30,490
a big kind of coronation, I guess,
for up and coming jazz players.

1246
00:50:30,490 --> 00:50:31,330
Weird, ridiculous.

1247
00:50:31,330 --> 00:50:32,950
Like that's a part that
I don't think was great.

1248
00:50:33,070 --> 00:50:33,700
I didn't win either.

1249
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:33,820
Yeah.

1250
00:50:33,820 --> 00:50:34,600
Joshua did win.

1251
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:35,800
I came in, oh he did?

1252
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:36,700
Third or second.

1253
00:50:36,730 --> 00:50:37,250
I think I came in second.

1254
00:50:37,300 --> 00:50:37,930
Oh, okay.

1255
00:50:38,020 --> 00:50:38,350
Yeah.

1256
00:50:38,620 --> 00:50:38,860
Ja.

1257
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:39,610
Jackie Terra.

1258
00:50:39,790 --> 00:50:40,660
Not that I'm bitter about.

1259
00:50:40,660 --> 00:50:41,410
It came in first.

1260
00:50:42,130 --> 00:50:42,280
Yeah.

1261
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:42,520
Oh, that's right.

1262
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,040
I remember people made a big deal
out of this thing big that Joshua

1263
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,190
Joshua or the, the, the Felonious Munk
competition every, it was big because

1264
00:50:48,190 --> 00:50:51,340
it basically came with like a major
record contract and, right, that's right.

1265
00:50:51,580 --> 00:50:55,540
Like an agent and all the things now
that you don't kind of don't need in a

1266
00:50:55,540 --> 00:50:57,040
way that's, yeah, it's another thing.

1267
00:50:57,340 --> 00:50:58,870
But yeah, it was a big deal then.

1268
00:50:58,870 --> 00:50:59,710
And um.

1269
00:51:00,150 --> 00:51:00,540
But yeah.

1270
00:51:00,540 --> 00:51:03,270
So this was a couple years after
that, I think, but not many.

1271
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:03,570
Okay.

1272
00:51:03,570 --> 00:51:07,170
Like Josh, he had wish had come
out, which was huge with Papini.

1273
00:51:07,170 --> 00:51:07,260
Right.

1274
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:19,860
And that has meld out on it, right.

1275
00:51:19,860 --> 00:51:19,920
Ish.

1276
00:51:19,950 --> 00:51:20,340
Exactly.

1277
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:20,970
Uh, no.

1278
00:51:21,030 --> 00:51:25,620
Yeah, that's, I think, no, I think it's,
no, the next record Mood Swing has bread.

1279
00:51:25,650 --> 00:51:25,890
Oh yeah.

1280
00:51:25,890 --> 00:51:26,820
Mood Swing has Mel out.

1281
00:51:26,820 --> 00:51:26,880
Yeah.

1282
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,790
And this is that year 94 when
like, mood swing was really big.

1283
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:30,990
Great record and Yeah.

1284
00:51:30,990 --> 00:51:32,010
Fantastic stuff.

1285
00:51:32,010 --> 00:51:34,710
And so I'd been talking to Josh
and he kind of started calling me

1286
00:51:34,710 --> 00:51:37,710
and was like, Hey, I'm thinking
about maybe making a change.

1287
00:51:37,710 --> 00:51:39,090
He's like, Brad, I don't know.

1288
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:40,170
You know, like, might
be doing his own thing.

1289
00:51:40,260 --> 00:51:40,350
Mm-hmm.

1290
00:51:40,590 --> 00:51:40,965
Blah, blah, blah, blah.

1291
00:51:40,970 --> 00:51:41,040
Brad.

1292
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,270
Mel, now he kind of sucks.

1293
00:51:42,270 --> 00:51:42,810
I don't know.

1294
00:51:42,810 --> 00:51:44,760
Can't really, can't really play.

1295
00:51:45,180 --> 00:51:45,240
Yeah.

1296
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:46,200
I think I'm gonna fire him.

1297
00:51:46,830 --> 00:51:48,510
I mean, and I'd known
Brad for a long time.

1298
00:51:48,510 --> 00:51:52,710
We're like exactly the same age, and,
and like I've always been a big fan of

1299
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:54,540
stuff, but I was so happy in Roy's band.

1300
00:51:54,540 --> 00:51:56,880
Like I was kind of like, uh, but then.

1301
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,980
So Josh sort of started, it became a
little bit more of like, well, maybe

1302
00:52:01,100 --> 00:52:03,260
I might make a change on bass too.

1303
00:52:03,620 --> 00:52:06,980
What if it was like Chris
Thomas on bass, you on piano?

1304
00:52:06,980 --> 00:52:09,050
And of course if Brian will stay Brian.

1305
00:52:09,290 --> 00:52:11,840
And so then I was kinda like, wow,
that sounds interesting, you know?

1306
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,960
Um, and we were still playing together
a lot in New Orleans whenever I was

1307
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,350
home and, and they were doing some
other things, but, uh, so it just,

1308
00:52:18,350 --> 00:52:22,340
by 95, kinda the beginning of 95,
it just sort of became inevitable.

1309
00:52:22,340 --> 00:52:24,770
And when Brad left, Josh hit
me up and that was like the

1310
00:52:24,770 --> 00:52:26,750
hardest decision ever to leave.

1311
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,170
Roy's man, I only played with him
for a year, so I, I really felt

1312
00:52:30,170 --> 00:52:31,370
like it was unfinished business.

1313
00:52:31,370 --> 00:52:34,310
And so when I looked back on that,
I'm like, was that a mistake?

1314
00:52:34,310 --> 00:52:34,670
I don't know.

1315
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:35,600
Um, mm-hmm.

1316
00:52:35,870 --> 00:52:39,140
But, uh, but it was a great situation
to go in with, with Josh, and I think

1317
00:52:39,140 --> 00:52:42,290
that was the time when he really felt
like he'd sort of figured some things

1318
00:52:42,290 --> 00:52:46,160
out from his first couple of bands and
like when he had Pat Metheny with him,

1319
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:47,330
that was more, I mean, it's Pat Metheny.

1320
00:52:47,330 --> 00:52:48,440
It's not really like, yeah, right.

1321
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:48,965
Your band, you know.

1322
00:52:49,695 --> 00:52:51,945
But I think he was kinda like, I want
to, you know, he had some different

1323
00:52:51,945 --> 00:52:56,025
ideas about music and stuff and so we
started like, I think February or March

1324
00:52:56,025 --> 00:52:57,975
of 95 and like went straight through.

1325
00:52:57,975 --> 00:53:01,245
I mean, he had so many, I thought
I toured heavy that year before

1326
00:53:01,485 --> 00:53:04,215
we were growing, but this was just
like, yeah, constant, constant.

1327
00:53:04,215 --> 00:53:04,605
It was fun.

1328
00:53:04,605 --> 00:53:06,675
I mean, we were doing bus like, um.

1329
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:09,130
I don't want say rock star
buses, that's what it was.

1330
00:53:09,550 --> 00:53:13,510
Bu whatever, like But a tour bus you
for a jazz tour, which is not nothing.

1331
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:13,750
Exactly.

1332
00:53:13,750 --> 00:53:16,330
But then we did it so much and so I was
telling some younger, but they were like,

1333
00:53:16,330 --> 00:53:19,445
what A tour bus on a, I was like, yeah,
in the nineties we did that all the time.

1334
00:53:20,005 --> 00:53:21,190
I mean, were crazy man.

1335
00:53:21,190 --> 00:53:22,990
Mean we were playing so much,
it was probably saving the

1336
00:53:22,990 --> 00:53:23,770
money 'cause it was like.

1337
00:53:23,825 --> 00:53:26,225
Day one night, or one night
or one, you know, just mm-hmm.

1338
00:53:26,495 --> 00:53:27,814
College gigs, clubs.

1339
00:53:45,370 --> 00:53:47,165
So it was fun, and I loved that group.

1340
00:53:47,165 --> 00:53:50,555
It was Quartet, I think for the
first year or maybe two years.

1341
00:53:50,555 --> 00:53:54,214
And then he added Peter Bernstein,
who on guitar, which was great.

1342
00:53:54,214 --> 00:53:56,044
We were all big fans of his and friends.

1343
00:53:56,165 --> 00:53:56,404
Yeah.

1344
00:53:56,404 --> 00:53:59,194
And really opened, opened things
up in the, in the arrangements too.

1345
00:53:59,495 --> 00:53:59,674
Yeah.

1346
00:54:10,460 --> 00:54:10,750
Yeah.

1347
00:54:10,754 --> 00:54:14,044
You know, it's funny, I, you
mentioned my episode about, um.

1348
00:54:14,125 --> 00:54:15,745
So what and about kind of blue.

1349
00:54:15,925 --> 00:54:16,045
Yeah.

1350
00:54:16,075 --> 00:54:20,185
You talking about this trio that you had
with Brian Blade and Christopher Thomas.

1351
00:54:20,335 --> 00:54:24,535
It makes me think of Winton Kelly's
Trio, like of the idea of a jazz piano

1352
00:54:24,535 --> 00:54:29,245
trio being the core of other groups,
but like working as a trio together,

1353
00:54:29,455 --> 00:54:32,725
which just seems like it's this really
important element that's easy to forget

1354
00:54:32,725 --> 00:54:35,305
about when you're looking at liner
notes and who's playing on which record.

1355
00:54:35,305 --> 00:54:37,975
Like the trio being its
own little identity.

1356
00:54:38,065 --> 00:54:38,215
Yeah.

1357
00:54:38,215 --> 00:54:41,905
It just seems very, very crucial for a
band having a sound like you guys did.

1358
00:54:42,175 --> 00:54:42,445
Yeah.

1359
00:54:42,445 --> 00:54:47,155
And I think for Josh, um, it was, uh.

1360
00:54:47,535 --> 00:54:51,645
I mean you, you know, one's memory or
the perception of one's memory from

1361
00:54:51,645 --> 00:54:54,465
that time is always a little funky
'cause it's been sure for 30 years.

1362
00:54:54,735 --> 00:54:59,025
But the, I think the, my impression
with him was always like, he liked

1363
00:54:59,025 --> 00:55:02,265
that he was getting this rhythm ready
made rhythm section where we had

1364
00:55:02,265 --> 00:55:05,325
all this rapport, but he was also a
little bit like, hold on now, like.

1365
00:55:05,395 --> 00:55:06,415
This is my band.

1366
00:55:06,415 --> 00:55:09,115
How do I, how do I keep this
from getting outta control?

1367
00:55:09,115 --> 00:55:10,795
'cause it's three against
one kind of thing.

1368
00:55:11,365 --> 00:55:14,305
Um, I feel like his musical
relationship with Brian Blade

1369
00:55:14,305 --> 00:55:18,115
especially was so locked in, I mean,
the way that they played together.

1370
00:55:18,235 --> 00:55:18,325
Yeah.

1371
00:55:18,325 --> 00:55:21,384
For me as a listener, especially when I
was young and first hearing you guys, I

1372
00:55:21,384 --> 00:55:23,395
didn't know that about the rhythm section.

1373
00:55:23,455 --> 00:55:23,634
Yeah.

1374
00:55:23,634 --> 00:55:26,995
And I always really gravitated
to that musical relationship

1375
00:55:26,995 --> 00:55:28,105
between Brian and Joshua.

1376
00:55:44,605 --> 00:55:44,845
Yeah.

1377
00:55:44,845 --> 00:55:45,800
He was totally the bridge.

1378
00:55:45,860 --> 00:55:48,475
Not only in terms of he's, so
the band before was Brad mailed

1379
00:55:48,475 --> 00:55:50,245
out Christian McBride on base.

1380
00:55:50,634 --> 00:55:50,725
Mm-hmm.

1381
00:55:50,965 --> 00:55:53,035
And, um, Josh and Brian.

1382
00:55:53,035 --> 00:55:56,905
And so like Brian was the bridge
between that, but also like, I

1383
00:55:56,905 --> 00:55:59,305
really like took that serious,
like when he called me to do it.

1384
00:55:59,305 --> 00:56:00,625
And that was when mood swing is still out.

1385
00:56:00,625 --> 00:56:01,855
Like I studied that record.

1386
00:56:01,855 --> 00:56:04,585
I learned all the things
in my year and like I, um.

1387
00:56:05,130 --> 00:56:07,650
Really checked out the way Brad
was playing, but I also was like,

1388
00:56:07,650 --> 00:56:08,700
okay, I want to bring my own thing.

1389
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:09,660
And Josh always wanted that.

1390
00:56:09,660 --> 00:56:11,305
He's like, I don't want to
do this stuff the same way.

1391
00:56:11,305 --> 00:56:11,850
No, yeah, sure.

1392
00:56:11,850 --> 00:56:15,690
You know, um, although he kind of did, you
know, it's always like, you kind of wanna

1393
00:56:15,690 --> 00:56:16,890
do it, but you want to see what else.

1394
00:56:16,890 --> 00:56:19,975
And I think we did a good job
of like bringing and like what,

1395
00:56:20,190 --> 00:56:21,810
what a rhythm section that has.

1396
00:56:22,234 --> 00:56:26,884
Years of, you know, personal and prof,
you know, professional on stage, rapport.

1397
00:56:27,065 --> 00:56:28,115
I think Josh was smart.

1398
00:56:28,205 --> 00:56:31,865
You know, like, I think he saw
an opportunity to like, and then

1399
00:56:31,865 --> 00:56:35,464
really helped to organize things in
a way where we were playing stuff

1400
00:56:35,464 --> 00:56:36,634
that we had never really played.

1401
00:56:36,634 --> 00:56:39,395
I mean, it wasn't that big of a
departure, but like Josh has always

1402
00:56:39,395 --> 00:56:43,685
been, I think a fantastic and, and a
little bit underrated as a composer.

1403
00:56:43,685 --> 00:56:45,035
I think he's one of our generation's.

1404
00:56:45,065 --> 00:56:45,455
Oh man.

1405
00:56:45,455 --> 00:56:46,475
Best jazz composer.

1406
00:56:46,535 --> 00:56:47,615
I completely agree.

1407
00:56:47,615 --> 00:56:49,924
Just having transcribed and
learned a bunch of his songs.

1408
00:56:49,924 --> 00:56:51,095
He's a great writer.

1409
00:56:51,095 --> 00:56:51,335
Yeah.

1410
00:57:12,715 --> 00:57:14,420
A really interesting sense for melody.

1411
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:14,780
Yeah.

1412
00:57:14,780 --> 00:57:17,570
I've been listening to some of those
old records and I just, I remember every

1413
00:57:17,570 --> 00:57:21,590
single melody, cold, even if there, it's a
song I haven't listened to in a long time.

1414
00:57:21,590 --> 00:57:23,630
Just 'cause the melodies are
so unusual and beautiful.

1415
00:57:23,780 --> 00:57:23,930
Yeah.

1416
00:57:23,930 --> 00:57:24,530
And of course, yeah.

1417
00:57:24,530 --> 00:57:26,480
Is harmonies great stuff to me.

1418
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:26,570
Yeah.

1419
00:57:42,595 --> 00:57:45,685
Well, we're gonna talk about some music
and, and make some recommendations.

1420
00:57:45,685 --> 00:57:47,125
We're gonna talk a little
bit about Kenny Kirkland.

1421
00:57:47,125 --> 00:57:49,945
Before that though, I want to ask you
a little bit more about Open Studio.

1422
00:57:49,945 --> 00:57:50,035
Yes.

1423
00:57:50,035 --> 00:57:52,795
Just because we've been talking
about teaching jazz, this is this

1424
00:57:52,795 --> 00:57:54,715
major thing that you've launched.

1425
00:57:54,865 --> 00:57:57,355
I guess first could you just give
listeners a kind of backstory?

1426
00:57:57,355 --> 00:58:00,205
I know some will be familiar, I know
some take courses with you guys.

1427
00:58:00,265 --> 00:58:00,385
Yeah.

1428
00:58:00,415 --> 00:58:01,405
But some will not be.

1429
00:58:01,405 --> 00:58:05,065
So maybe just give a little bit of
a, a nutshell of what Open Studio is.

1430
00:58:05,065 --> 00:58:05,425
Sure.

1431
00:58:05,455 --> 00:58:05,605
Yeah.

1432
00:58:05,605 --> 00:58:12,415
We're, we're, um, a jazz community
for folks that, um, wanna learn

1433
00:58:12,415 --> 00:58:13,585
how to become better players.

1434
00:58:13,585 --> 00:58:14,065
But I think.

1435
00:58:14,455 --> 00:58:19,315
What it's really become is more like how
do you live a musical life as mm, at no

1436
00:58:19,315 --> 00:58:22,585
matter what your level, no matter what
your age, no matter what your ambition

1437
00:58:22,585 --> 00:58:27,654
level, but just like kind of having this
connection of jazz or jazz adjacent.

1438
00:58:27,714 --> 00:58:29,694
Oh my God, I never thought
I'd use that word there.

1439
00:58:29,755 --> 00:58:34,495
Well, but I mean just like jazz and
like the harmonies that jazz represent,

1440
00:58:34,495 --> 00:58:38,095
just like wanting to be creative
with your development as a player.

1441
00:58:38,185 --> 00:58:42,384
Um, and, and we really have folks, you
know, all the way up into their nineties.

1442
00:58:42,775 --> 00:58:47,335
Uh, we have some younger folks, but we
mainly serve people that are like, Hey,

1443
00:58:47,335 --> 00:58:48,924
I'm just getting back to my instrument.

1444
00:58:48,924 --> 00:58:53,245
Like I retired early, or I have some
time on the weekends, or I just, I don't

1445
00:58:53,245 --> 00:58:56,575
know what to practice and I don't have
access to a teacher, but I wanna, I don't

1446
00:58:56,575 --> 00:59:00,055
wanna just sit around watching YouTube
videos and I get lost or whatever.

1447
00:59:00,355 --> 00:59:03,565
Um, so this is not like
Berkeley School of Music online.

1448
00:59:03,565 --> 00:59:06,805
This is not, how do you get to the
Village Vanguard in the next year and a

1449
00:59:06,805 --> 00:59:08,605
half week guarantee, or your money back?

1450
00:59:08,904 --> 00:59:11,545
This is really about like,
how do you just get a little

1451
00:59:11,545 --> 00:59:13,315
bit better sometimes some big.

1452
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:16,880
Jumps ahead, but kind of know how
to practice, know how to take.

1453
00:59:17,745 --> 00:59:21,375
Living a musical life with your instrument
every day, like enjoying the journey.

1454
00:59:21,435 --> 00:59:24,615
Um, it's, it's very much like, you
know, I've gotten into marathon

1455
00:59:24,615 --> 00:59:26,145
running over the last like, five years.

1456
00:59:26,175 --> 00:59:27,615
Mm. So sort of later in life.

1457
00:59:27,885 --> 00:59:30,945
And it's like, how do you
enjoy the training each week?

1458
00:59:30,945 --> 00:59:32,115
What's the training plan?

1459
00:59:32,235 --> 00:59:35,685
And then hopefully so that you
can have a great marathon day, but

1460
00:59:35,685 --> 00:59:38,655
also so that even if the marathon
gets canceled, you're like, man,

1461
00:59:38,655 --> 00:59:39,945
I'm so glad I went through this.

1462
00:59:40,155 --> 00:59:41,055
When's the next one?

1463
00:59:41,055 --> 00:59:41,805
You know, oh man.

1464
00:59:41,805 --> 00:59:44,565
Have you read Dave Leeman's book,
Self-Portrait of a Jazz Musician?

1465
00:59:44,565 --> 00:59:48,255
Do you know that that book Lieman is
'cause he's a long distance runner.

1466
00:59:48,255 --> 00:59:49,905
He made this crazy album.

1467
00:59:49,905 --> 00:59:53,145
This is Leman the saxophone player, who
was actually a, a big influence on me in

1468
00:59:53,145 --> 00:59:55,125
a number of, of ways when I was young.

1469
00:59:55,125 --> 00:59:56,865
I had a very important
conversation with him.

1470
00:59:57,285 --> 00:59:58,665
Uh, I think I've talked
about it on the show.

1471
00:59:58,695 --> 01:00:01,695
He has this album called The
Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner

1472
01:00:01,995 --> 01:00:04,395
that I always found fascinating,
especially when I was younger.

1473
01:00:04,395 --> 01:00:06,345
It's a lot of like ob
dubbed soprano sax stuff.

1474
01:00:06,645 --> 01:00:09,675
There's actually a cool version of
it that he did live where he, he

1475
01:00:09,675 --> 01:00:14,145
reads a bit of an intro, uh, for
like the concept of the piece as

1476
01:00:14,145 --> 01:00:16,215
I imagined what a marathon runner.

1477
01:00:16,290 --> 01:00:17,790
I must endure.

1478
01:00:18,270 --> 01:00:21,210
It seemed like the perfect metaphor
for the journey of an artist.

1479
01:00:22,290 --> 01:00:27,210
Upon further thought, I realized
that artists are not alone in

1480
01:00:27,210 --> 01:00:33,000
experiencing life's journey, but
they do articulate the voyage for all

1481
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:37,259
mankind to see here and reflect upon.

1482
01:00:38,250 --> 01:00:42,815
But in the final result, the long
distance runner is all of us.

1483
01:00:55,740 --> 01:00:59,250
His book, Self-Portrait, a jazz
musician, is like a very interesting

1484
01:00:59,250 --> 01:01:02,550
end marathon, uh, informed look at jazz.

1485
01:01:02,550 --> 01:01:05,880
So it's very, it's just interesting that
you mentioned that, but um, but that

1486
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,560
totally makes sense, like to that, that
kind of mentality, that that long paced

1487
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:15,300
mentality could change how you think
about jazz and man, I mean, I gotta say.

1488
01:01:15,945 --> 01:01:17,805
It's, I love that approach.

1489
01:01:17,805 --> 01:01:20,805
Like I love the way that you describe
it and what it looks like Open Studio

1490
01:01:20,805 --> 01:01:25,095
does, and it stands in such contrast,
I think, to the way that I learned

1491
01:01:25,095 --> 01:01:27,855
jazz and I think the way that a lot of
people learned jazz in the nineties.

1492
01:01:28,125 --> 01:01:32,325
You mentioned gatekeeping earlier, it's
like there was this turbocharged feeling

1493
01:01:32,325 --> 01:01:37,665
of exclusiveness, like it was so about
the like meritocracy, about auditioning

1494
01:01:37,665 --> 01:01:40,815
and like cutting other players and the
best player gets to be in the band.

1495
01:01:40,815 --> 01:01:44,925
And there was so much like talking smack
about other players and kind of, you

1496
01:01:44,925 --> 01:01:46,575
know, just a lot of competitiveness.

1497
01:01:46,575 --> 01:01:49,605
It was very male, it
was very aggressive and.

1498
01:01:50,444 --> 01:01:54,615
That is just, I feel like so many
musicians now who, or jazz musicians

1499
01:01:54,615 --> 01:01:59,415
who've reached middle age have kind of
rejected that and said, you know, so many

1500
01:01:59,415 --> 01:02:03,615
people could play this music or love this
music, or, you know, learn to appreciate

1501
01:02:03,615 --> 01:02:05,055
it and have it be part of their life.

1502
01:02:05,055 --> 01:02:08,475
You know, live a musical life without
needing to play at the Village

1503
01:02:08,475 --> 01:02:11,834
Vanguard without needing to take
this incredibly intense approach.

1504
01:02:11,924 --> 01:02:14,745
And actually by dropping that approach,
you open the door to so many more

1505
01:02:14,745 --> 01:02:18,615
people, you know, loving the music
and making it a part of their life.

1506
01:02:18,674 --> 01:02:21,645
So, uh, it's, it's interesting
to hear that marathon running

1507
01:02:21,645 --> 01:02:22,785
was the thing that got you there.

1508
01:02:22,785 --> 01:02:23,654
Was there anything else?

1509
01:02:23,654 --> 01:02:27,464
Like, I don't know, any other experiences
that, that Yeah, I mean that the, the

1510
01:02:27,464 --> 01:02:30,615
marathon run was more about like, I
was already well into doing open studio

1511
01:02:30,615 --> 01:02:34,305
when I got on that, but it, it like
helped clarify, like, I think when I

1512
01:02:34,305 --> 01:02:38,265
started this, it was really just about
like, I'm gonna pass on information

1513
01:02:38,265 --> 01:02:42,194
that I learned, that I was taught
from other players or on the band

1514
01:02:42,194 --> 01:02:43,665
center or from records or whatever.

1515
01:02:43,904 --> 01:02:47,595
Mostly stuff that, like, it was
nothing I invented, it was more like.

1516
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:48,510
Yeah, sure.

1517
01:02:48,630 --> 01:02:51,600
I, I knew how to teach it and, but it
would really just be like showing, it

1518
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,590
was very, not very, but it was generally
intermediate to advanced jazz piano stuff.

1519
01:02:55,740 --> 01:02:57,270
It's like, this is the
way you can play Misty.

1520
01:02:57,450 --> 01:02:58,890
I'm using this five note voicing.

1521
01:02:58,890 --> 01:03:00,540
If you put the sixth here,
it'll sound like this.

1522
01:03:00,810 --> 01:03:04,320
Just showing it in a way so that
if somebody could play pretty good,

1523
01:03:04,620 --> 01:03:07,560
it was super useful for them, those
lessons, because it's like just having

1524
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:11,100
somebody that's a pro player just sit
there and show you, you know, yeah.

1525
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:11,970
How to do it.

1526
01:03:12,210 --> 01:03:14,520
And so I always thought, well, that's
what this will be, and then I'll

1527
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:15,840
add other instruments and all this.

1528
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:19,110
And then it turned out like all
the people that wanted me to

1529
01:03:19,110 --> 01:03:20,275
teach them in that way mm-hmm.

1530
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:21,330
I got pretty quickly.

1531
01:03:21,930 --> 01:03:24,210
And that like, that's kind of,
because there's not that many of them.

1532
01:03:24,215 --> 01:03:27,150
There's not that many, you know, and
they're, there's relatively few of them.

1533
01:03:27,180 --> 01:03:27,510
Yeah.

1534
01:03:27,510 --> 01:03:28,770
And so like, I kind of got.

1535
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,490
I learned how to get comfortable on the
camera and like how to make videos and

1536
01:03:32,490 --> 01:03:36,330
how to, like, it's weird when you're
teaching not directly to somebody, but

1537
01:03:36,330 --> 01:03:37,860
you know that they're gonna be there.

1538
01:03:37,860 --> 01:03:37,950
Mm-hmm.

1539
01:03:38,190 --> 01:03:41,160
So it took me some time,
sets some reps on that.

1540
01:03:41,340 --> 01:03:43,620
And so during that, well this is also
something that Adam is really great.

1541
01:03:43,620 --> 01:03:45,555
Adam Maness Adam who does a
lot of these because I taught

1542
01:03:45,555 --> 01:03:47,580
him everythings Of course.

1543
01:03:48,299 --> 01:03:48,480
No.

1544
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:48,690
Yeah.

1545
01:03:48,690 --> 01:03:49,049
He's fantastic.

1546
01:03:49,049 --> 01:03:49,290
He is.

1547
01:03:49,290 --> 01:03:50,340
He is really good at that though.

1548
01:03:50,340 --> 01:03:52,890
Like talking to you like you're
there, you know, even though

1549
01:03:52,890 --> 01:03:54,000
he is just talking to a camera.

1550
01:03:54,420 --> 01:03:55,020
Oh, hi there.

1551
01:03:55,830 --> 01:03:59,250
I'm musician and middle-aged
influencer, Adam Maness.

1552
01:03:59,370 --> 01:04:01,020
Today I wanna talk to you
about approach chords.

1553
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,240
Why do approach chords matter?

1554
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,730
Well, we wanna have several
ways to approach important

1555
01:04:05,730 --> 01:04:06,960
chords in our progression.

1556
01:04:07,590 --> 01:04:07,890
Yeah.

1557
01:04:07,890 --> 01:04:10,470
And it's, it's kind of the kind of
thing you just have to do a bunch,

1558
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:11,819
or at least for me to get that.

1559
01:04:11,819 --> 01:04:11,910
Mm-hmm.

1560
01:04:12,150 --> 01:04:12,750
Oh yeah, sure.

1561
01:04:12,990 --> 01:04:16,140
But then when I started realizing, I was
like, wow, there's so many more people.

1562
01:04:16,319 --> 01:04:19,319
Well, there's a lot of people like
what you're describing, people that got

1563
01:04:19,319 --> 01:04:20,995
gatekeep out in the nineties mm-hmm.

1564
01:04:21,075 --> 01:04:23,670
Or the eighties that are
coming back now and being like.

1565
01:04:24,015 --> 01:04:24,495
Oh, wow.

1566
01:04:24,495 --> 01:04:29,325
I, I want to connect with the
music I've given up my dream.

1567
01:04:29,325 --> 01:04:29,384
Yeah.

1568
01:04:29,384 --> 01:04:31,995
Like actually the dream of getting to the
village Vanguard is not that important.

1569
01:04:31,995 --> 01:04:34,035
I just wanna learn how to play bebop.

1570
01:04:34,065 --> 01:04:34,335
Right.

1571
01:04:34,424 --> 01:04:35,025
That'd be, yeah.

1572
01:04:35,025 --> 01:04:36,345
To the best of my abilities.

1573
01:04:36,345 --> 01:04:37,365
And so that's what, mm-hmm.

1574
01:04:37,940 --> 01:04:40,694
For me, the running has been
about, like, it's not about, yeah.

1575
01:04:40,694 --> 01:04:43,065
I mean, sometimes I'll think, oh,
this would be cool to do this time

1576
01:04:43,065 --> 01:04:46,875
goal, but it's not, I'm not rating
myself in relation to other people.

1577
01:04:46,904 --> 01:04:47,025
Mm-hmm.

1578
01:04:47,025 --> 01:04:47,805
It's all about mm-hmm.

1579
01:04:48,105 --> 01:04:49,125
Me and my journey.

1580
01:04:49,154 --> 01:04:52,484
And also a community of supportive
other runners, you know?

1581
01:04:52,484 --> 01:04:54,975
And so right when I started looking
at Open Studio, I was like, this is

1582
01:04:54,975 --> 01:04:58,694
not just about, yes, we'll give the
specific training on these tunes, but

1583
01:04:58,694 --> 01:04:59,984
it's also about the beginner level.

1584
01:04:59,984 --> 01:05:02,055
It's about you haven't played
your instrument for a while.

1585
01:05:02,055 --> 01:05:04,665
Is there still a place
for you in the music?

1586
01:05:04,665 --> 01:05:05,355
Absolutely.

1587
01:05:05,475 --> 01:05:09,674
You're a kind of a folk singer songwriter
on guitar, and you're interested in

1588
01:05:09,674 --> 01:05:12,915
jazz because you wanna learn upper
extension stuff, but you, we're not

1589
01:05:12,915 --> 01:05:16,095
gonna keep you out because you're
not like West Montgomery or nothing.

1590
01:05:16,095 --> 01:05:17,625
But you know, it's like, yeah, right.

1591
01:05:17,625 --> 01:05:20,265
No, let, let's, let's talk
about those things and so.

1592
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,180
When we started to be
more inclusive with that.

1593
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,840
And Adam has been huge for me
because he's always kind of come

1594
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,060
from more of a multi-gen approach.

1595
01:05:29,090 --> 01:05:29,150
Yeah.

1596
01:05:29,150 --> 01:05:33,230
I mean, he's very much a jazz pianist,
but he's always had more, like I came

1597
01:05:33,230 --> 01:05:36,350
up, like all the great things from
what we talked about, but also all

1598
01:05:36,350 --> 01:05:38,090
the bad things as far as like Right.

1599
01:05:38,090 --> 01:05:38,430
Swing out.

1600
01:05:38,430 --> 01:05:39,125
You're not, you know?

1601
01:05:39,385 --> 01:05:39,805
Mm-hmm.

1602
01:05:39,965 --> 01:05:40,725
And so that mm-hmm.

1603
01:05:40,805 --> 01:05:43,790
That, I mean, I'd been opening up over
the years anyway, of course, but Adam was

1604
01:05:43,790 --> 01:05:46,070
huge once I brought him into the fold.

1605
01:05:46,070 --> 01:05:48,980
And so now we just kind of let the
community direct us in terms of

1606
01:05:48,980 --> 01:05:52,400
like what their needs are and try
to create programs and courses.

1607
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:54,320
And we do a lot of live classes now.

1608
01:05:54,620 --> 01:05:55,700
Um, I mean, we've got.

1609
01:05:56,175 --> 01:05:58,545
People in 124 countries active members.

1610
01:05:58,575 --> 01:05:58,995
Wow.

1611
01:05:59,055 --> 01:06:00,825
Which is crazy, but Makes sense.

1612
01:06:00,825 --> 01:06:01,995
'cause the music is internet.

1613
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:03,075
Is is global.

1614
01:06:03,195 --> 01:06:04,725
It's a global language, you know?

1615
01:06:05,265 --> 01:06:08,505
Do you find space for getting people
together to play since I would

1616
01:06:08,505 --> 01:06:10,815
imagine that's the hardest thing
about teaching jazz online, right.

1617
01:06:10,815 --> 01:06:13,125
Is that it is a music
that you make together.

1618
01:06:13,125 --> 01:06:15,195
Like it has to be made
in the moment in space.

1619
01:06:15,405 --> 01:06:18,105
But as you grow, I would imagine
it's more and more possible to

1620
01:06:18,105 --> 01:06:21,315
have meetups or for people to get
together and play with one another.

1621
01:06:21,435 --> 01:06:21,765
Yeah.

1622
01:06:21,765 --> 01:06:25,275
And we've been having a bunch of
spontaneous meetup among the members and

1623
01:06:25,275 --> 01:06:26,655
now we're kind of trying to Hell yeah.

1624
01:06:26,685 --> 01:06:27,855
Help organize that.

1625
01:06:27,855 --> 01:06:29,755
And you know, we've got
an, we've got a, we.

1626
01:06:29,950 --> 01:06:34,750
Community area of our site called the
hang, very unimaginatively titled, but

1627
01:06:34,750 --> 01:06:38,710
I think it's apt, you know, accurate
harkens back to those days where

1628
01:06:38,710 --> 01:06:41,950
people can connect and message and like
propose different things and like we're

1629
01:06:41,950 --> 01:06:43,060
starting to get a lot more of that.

1630
01:06:43,060 --> 01:06:45,759
And in fact we have some in
real life events that we're

1631
01:06:45,759 --> 01:06:47,350
organizing ourselves for next year.

1632
01:06:47,350 --> 01:06:49,299
And so that's kind of the next frontier.

1633
01:06:49,299 --> 01:06:52,390
We've had folks here too, at the
studio, members that have come

1634
01:06:52,390 --> 01:06:53,799
in to do different programs.

1635
01:06:53,830 --> 01:06:55,509
Um, I mean that's the hardest part.

1636
01:06:56,295 --> 01:06:59,775
Like the beautiful part is connecting
people from 124 countries potentially.

1637
01:06:59,775 --> 01:06:59,985
Yeah.

1638
01:07:00,015 --> 01:07:00,930
Just like that, you know?

1639
01:07:01,030 --> 01:07:01,450
Mm-hmm.

1640
01:07:01,535 --> 01:07:04,155
The hardest part then is like, how
do you connect them Certain places

1641
01:07:04,155 --> 01:07:07,095
like London, New York, Los Angeles,
like we have some places where

1642
01:07:07,095 --> 01:07:08,655
we have a lot of members, right?

1643
01:07:08,655 --> 01:07:10,515
So it's been easier for
that to start happening.

1644
01:07:10,575 --> 01:07:12,375
Um, but I, I foresee more of that.

1645
01:07:12,670 --> 01:07:14,345
In, in person stuff in the future.

1646
01:07:14,915 --> 01:07:15,695
That's really cool.

1647
01:07:15,695 --> 01:07:18,305
Yeah, it just seems like a pretty,
a pretty amazing thing and it's,

1648
01:07:18,305 --> 01:07:21,035
it's cool to hear how it got
started and, and how it's grown.

1649
01:07:21,725 --> 01:07:21,905
Yeah.

1650
01:07:26,675 --> 01:07:28,445
Let's, uh, let's talk about some music.

1651
01:07:28,445 --> 01:07:31,895
So I always ask for music
recommendations and I know we wanted

1652
01:07:31,895 --> 01:07:34,925
to talk a little bit about Kenny
Kirkland, who's come up a few times.

1653
01:07:35,195 --> 01:07:35,285
Yep.

1654
01:07:35,285 --> 01:07:38,945
The late great Kenny Kirkland, uh,
jazz pianist extraordinaire who

1655
01:07:38,945 --> 01:07:40,805
played with a number of people.

1656
01:07:41,075 --> 01:07:43,205
Um, I first heard him playing
with Kenny Garrett, but I

1657
01:07:43,205 --> 01:07:44,345
think you heard him earlier.

1658
01:07:44,345 --> 01:07:45,845
So let's start with Kenny.

1659
01:07:45,845 --> 01:07:47,555
What is your, your background with Kenny?

1660
01:07:47,615 --> 01:07:48,275
Kenny Kirkland?

1661
01:07:53,195 --> 01:07:59,855
Well, Kenny was really the first jazz
pianist that I heard in person and on

1662
01:07:59,855 --> 01:08:02,195
record around the same time Oh, wow.

1663
01:08:02,225 --> 01:08:03,935
That I was like.

1664
01:08:04,830 --> 01:08:06,029
Oh my God, I wanna do that.

1665
01:08:06,029 --> 01:08:06,899
I want to be that.

1666
01:08:06,959 --> 01:08:07,740
I want to be him.

1667
01:08:07,740 --> 01:08:07,859
Nice.

1668
01:08:07,890 --> 01:08:10,915
Whatever him is, you know,
that I was just like, mm-hmm.

1669
01:08:11,395 --> 01:08:12,419
Transported like that.

1670
01:08:12,419 --> 01:08:16,260
It's that weird combination of like
awe and inspiration and like, yep.

1671
01:08:16,349 --> 01:08:17,910
I could never do that, but wait, wait.

1672
01:08:17,910 --> 01:08:19,979
If I could, you know, just mm-hmm.

1673
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:21,240
Inspired, you know?

1674
01:08:21,330 --> 01:08:21,420
Mm-hmm.

1675
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,450
Um, now, I mean, I'd heard
Herbie Hancock and McCoy, I'd

1676
01:08:24,450 --> 01:08:25,649
even gotten into McCoy a little.

1677
01:08:25,649 --> 01:08:28,500
Like there was like legends, but
like Kenny Kirk, because I saw him

1678
01:08:28,500 --> 01:08:30,149
lie, like that was such a big thing.

1679
01:08:30,154 --> 01:08:30,314
Right.

1680
01:08:38,099 --> 01:08:41,939
Uh, in 1985, he was playing with
Win Marcellus and I was 14 and like,

1681
01:08:42,029 --> 01:08:44,429
it just hit me at that right time
and I got a chance to meet him.

1682
01:08:44,729 --> 01:08:46,944
I just went up to him after the show.

1683
01:08:46,950 --> 01:08:47,049
Mm-hmm.

1684
01:08:47,129 --> 01:08:47,995
Oh, that's another thing.

1685
01:08:47,995 --> 01:08:49,615
Young people have to
get back to doing that.

1686
01:08:49,615 --> 01:08:50,484
Like Yeah.

1687
01:08:50,484 --> 01:08:53,814
Everybody's like, oh, I'll just wait
in DM and like, no, go meet the Ians.

1688
01:08:53,814 --> 01:08:53,904
Yeah.

1689
01:08:54,714 --> 01:08:55,644
Like that's, go say hi.

1690
01:08:55,644 --> 01:08:57,955
Like, people are generally very nice.

1691
01:08:57,955 --> 01:08:58,644
They'll talk to you.

1692
01:08:59,214 --> 01:08:59,544
Yeah.

1693
01:08:59,544 --> 01:09:01,705
I mean, I remember it used to
be so many more pe young people

1694
01:09:01,705 --> 01:09:02,490
would come up to us after shows.

1695
01:09:02,490 --> 01:09:02,849
Mm-hmm.

1696
01:09:02,934 --> 01:09:05,785
And now it's like, I'll be going up to
them, I'll be like, Hey, how you doing?

1697
01:09:05,785 --> 01:09:06,415
And they're like, ah.

1698
01:09:06,625 --> 01:09:08,634
You know, that's so funny.

1699
01:09:08,694 --> 01:09:12,205
But, uh, I went up and met him and he
was so, I mean, look, there's always

1700
01:09:12,205 --> 01:09:13,404
the risk of they're gonna be an asshole.

1701
01:09:13,434 --> 01:09:14,575
That's, that's, yeah.

1702
01:09:14,604 --> 01:09:16,584
But that's always been
there, you know, and always.

1703
01:09:16,584 --> 01:09:17,934
And the exception not the rule.

1704
01:09:17,934 --> 01:09:18,325
Exactly.

1705
01:09:18,325 --> 01:09:20,094
Speaking guys are usually pretty chill.

1706
01:09:20,154 --> 01:09:20,484
Yeah.

1707
01:09:20,875 --> 01:09:22,404
Um, but Kenny was so great.

1708
01:09:22,404 --> 01:09:23,689
I mean, he was just like,
Hey, you know, just.

1709
01:09:24,194 --> 01:09:25,515
He had a warmth about him.

1710
01:09:25,515 --> 01:09:25,604
Mm-hmm.

1711
01:09:25,845 --> 01:09:26,840
And I was just in awe.

1712
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:28,725
I just heard him play all
this incredible stuff.

1713
01:09:28,755 --> 01:09:31,154
And, um, but he was like,
let's keep in touch.

1714
01:09:31,154 --> 01:09:34,125
And then the next time I saw him,
he remembered me, which is like,

1715
01:09:34,274 --> 01:09:37,154
when you're a 14 or 15-year-old
kid, that's like everything.

1716
01:09:37,154 --> 01:09:37,934
He's like, Peter, right.

1717
01:09:37,995 --> 01:09:38,745
I was like, what?

1718
01:09:39,225 --> 01:09:43,425
And so he just really was like, he
never did anything huge, like gimme

1719
01:09:43,425 --> 01:09:49,005
any secret scrolls or anything, but he
just was kind and like, what was, and

1720
01:09:49,005 --> 01:09:50,234
it was never like, you need to do that.

1721
01:09:50,234 --> 01:09:52,215
Like win was more like, have you
been practicing all that thing?

1722
01:09:52,215 --> 01:09:55,815
I told you you Uhhuh candy was way
more laid back, you know's he'd answer.

1723
01:09:55,815 --> 01:09:56,175
That's funny.

1724
01:09:56,175 --> 01:09:59,144
Anything I'd ask him, but he
was never gonna be like, but

1725
01:09:59,144 --> 01:10:02,385
I mean, I just connected with
his playing, like on record.

1726
01:10:02,385 --> 01:10:02,445
Yeah.

1727
01:10:02,445 --> 01:10:05,144
And then when I heard him and like
always was like there was something

1728
01:10:05,144 --> 01:10:11,295
about his, his style, um, that just
like really became the foundation

1729
01:10:11,295 --> 01:10:12,585
of a lot of the things I played.

1730
01:10:12,735 --> 01:10:14,475
I mean, I'm probably not the most.

1731
01:10:15,465 --> 01:10:18,915
Like, I mean, you can hear us playing
in, in my playing, but I think

1732
01:10:18,915 --> 01:10:22,575
because I have a lot of influences,
it's not as obvious as some people.

1733
01:10:22,785 --> 01:10:27,225
Like, um, Joey Razzo I think is the
ultimate, like Kenny Kirkland disciple.

1734
01:10:27,255 --> 01:10:27,345
Mm-hmm.

1735
01:10:27,585 --> 01:10:28,635
Like he studies his stuff.

1736
01:10:28,635 --> 01:10:30,105
He can play just like him.

1737
01:10:30,105 --> 01:10:32,565
I mean, he amazing player and
of course has his own song.

1738
01:10:32,565 --> 01:10:33,075
Oh yeah, yeah.

1739
01:10:33,105 --> 01:10:34,785
You know, played with
Branford for all these years.

1740
01:10:34,785 --> 01:10:38,025
So like he fits into that role
of some things that Kenny did.

1741
01:10:38,265 --> 01:10:41,475
So for me, it's not as much
about that, but just his joy,

1742
01:10:41,475 --> 01:10:43,005
his approach to articulation.

1743
01:10:43,005 --> 01:10:43,755
His dance man.

1744
01:10:43,755 --> 01:10:44,085
Yeah.

1745
01:10:44,295 --> 01:10:47,415
You know, his, his swing
feel so particular and

1746
01:10:47,415 --> 01:10:49,095
like, so it's so funk fused.

1747
01:10:49,095 --> 01:10:52,905
Like when he's swinging there's such
like a kind of backbeat undertone to it.

1748
01:10:53,115 --> 01:10:54,315
Really exciting stuff.

1749
01:10:54,905 --> 01:10:59,075
Yeah, it's funny, I had a, I had a
similar actually experience to what

1750
01:10:59,075 --> 01:11:01,115
you described, seeing Kenny Kirkland.

1751
01:11:01,115 --> 01:11:01,835
Seeing Kenny Garrett.

1752
01:11:01,835 --> 01:11:03,635
He came to my high school in Bloomington.

1753
01:11:03,635 --> 01:11:03,725
Mm-hmm.

1754
01:11:04,025 --> 01:11:06,035
Uh, this is when he was playing
with Chris, Dave, and I can't

1755
01:11:06,035 --> 01:11:07,295
remember who the piano player was.

1756
01:11:07,295 --> 01:11:10,355
It was post Kenny, but it
was around that songbook era.

1757
01:11:10,475 --> 01:11:10,595
Yeah.

1758
01:11:10,625 --> 01:11:13,865
Like late, it was maybe 98,
maybe a year after a songbook.

1759
01:11:13,865 --> 01:11:14,045
Yeah.

1760
01:11:14,315 --> 01:11:17,285
And, um, then going and
listening to Songbook and Kenny

1761
01:11:17,345 --> 01:11:18,725
Kirkland plays on that record.

1762
01:11:29,375 --> 01:11:33,695
And man, I mean, sing a song of song,
that song the Kenny Garrett kind

1763
01:11:33,695 --> 01:11:35,465
of pop song with the four chords.

1764
01:11:35,585 --> 01:11:35,675
Yeah.

1765
01:11:35,825 --> 01:11:38,555
Um, it just knocked me out at the time.

1766
01:11:38,555 --> 01:11:41,915
I just didn't really know that A straight
ahead jazz group could sound like that.

1767
01:11:42,065 --> 01:11:42,755
And Kenny's.

1768
01:11:42,830 --> 01:11:44,600
Kirkland's playing on that record.

1769
01:11:44,630 --> 01:11:45,530
I mean, yeah.

1770
01:11:45,530 --> 01:11:46,880
Two down, one across.

1771
01:11:46,940 --> 01:11:47,059
Mm-hmm.

1772
01:11:47,300 --> 01:11:51,470
Um, his solo on that, the way he sequences
ideas and something in his swing.

1773
01:11:51,470 --> 01:11:55,100
It's not, he's not just
like rat ta ta ta ta.

1774
01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:55,190
Yeah.

1775
01:11:55,220 --> 01:11:57,769
It's like it has this
kind of bounce to it.

1776
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:57,860
Yeah.

1777
01:11:57,860 --> 01:11:59,510
There's this kind of ebullient bounce.

1778
01:11:59,510 --> 01:12:01,220
He kind of carries over top of the groove.

1779
01:12:01,550 --> 01:12:04,250
It's a hard thing to explain,
and I'm not much of a pianist,

1780
01:12:04,250 --> 01:12:07,280
so I've never transcribed him,
but there is a joyfulness.

1781
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:09,394
I think that's a perfect way to
describe the way that he plays.

1782
01:12:20,300 --> 01:12:20,540
Yeah.

1783
01:12:20,540 --> 01:12:23,059
No, I mean it's, yeah,
it's, he has that bounce.

1784
01:12:23,059 --> 01:12:24,260
He has it's personality.

1785
01:12:24,620 --> 01:12:25,850
It's like he has, yeah.

1786
01:12:25,850 --> 01:12:25,860
Yeah.

1787
01:12:25,910 --> 01:12:26,750
His technique.

1788
01:12:27,620 --> 01:12:32,000
He shaped it so well around his
musical persona and like bringing

1789
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,680
that out in everything that he plays.

1790
01:12:33,830 --> 01:12:37,155
Even if it's something like very,
I. You know, kind of somber.

1791
01:12:37,155 --> 01:12:40,605
There's that song on songbook,
the, um, the beautiful ballad

1792
01:12:40,724 --> 01:12:41,550
where he's playing the melody.

1793
01:12:41,554 --> 01:12:41,594
Melody.

1794
01:12:41,594 --> 01:12:41,835
Oh yeah.

1795
01:12:42,315 --> 01:12:45,974
Um, you still feel, I mean, that's
not like a swinging, bouncing thing,

1796
01:12:46,155 --> 01:12:51,045
but you feel his his way of like,
just bringing tone out of the piano.

1797
01:12:51,405 --> 01:12:53,745
An instrument that's hard
to like, personalize.

1798
01:13:03,190 --> 01:13:03,580
You know what I mean?

1799
01:13:03,580 --> 01:13:04,540
Yeah, no, it's true.

1800
01:13:04,540 --> 01:13:05,080
It's true.

1801
01:13:05,139 --> 01:13:07,690
It makes it more remarkable when
someone does, you know, bill Evans.

1802
01:13:07,690 --> 01:13:07,840
Really?

1803
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:07,900
Yeah.

1804
01:13:07,900 --> 01:13:09,370
It's like always came most
famously, but you know.

1805
01:13:09,370 --> 01:13:09,639
Yeah.

1806
01:13:10,090 --> 01:13:15,400
And he was just such a cool guy to such a
nice person and such an interesting story.

1807
01:13:15,519 --> 01:13:17,950
Really tragic, you know,
about us losing him so young.

1808
01:13:18,335 --> 01:13:18,935
I know.

1809
01:13:18,995 --> 01:13:19,205
Yeah.

1810
01:13:19,835 --> 01:13:22,685
It's funny we're recording this
right after DeAngelo died, and I

1811
01:13:22,685 --> 01:13:26,465
like, am increasingly just, it's
harder and harder every year to

1812
01:13:26,465 --> 01:13:29,645
deal with these brilliant musicians
who I grew up loving, dying young.

1813
01:13:29,645 --> 01:13:31,025
It's, it's really awful.

1814
01:13:31,265 --> 01:13:31,385
Yeah.

1815
01:13:31,475 --> 01:13:35,015
Um, so for, uh, for, for a pick
for Kenny Kirkland, you also talked

1816
01:13:35,015 --> 01:13:38,495
about, uh, brother John this Elvin
Jones record that, uh, that I had

1817
01:13:38,495 --> 01:13:40,085
actually never heard and is great.

1818
01:13:40,085 --> 01:13:42,695
So, uh, I'll play a clip from it, but
maybe talk a little bit about that.

1819
01:13:50,525 --> 01:13:54,935
Well, this was like, after I met
Kenny and heard him play in 85, I

1820
01:13:54,935 --> 01:13:56,165
was like, went to the record store.

1821
01:13:56,165 --> 01:13:58,025
I was like, I gotta find
everything this guy's played on.

1822
01:13:58,265 --> 01:13:58,595
Nice.

1823
01:13:58,595 --> 01:13:59,855
And which he hadn't played on.

1824
01:13:59,855 --> 01:14:02,860
I mean, he had played on some stuff,
but it was all like, kind of not mm-hmm.

1825
01:14:02,945 --> 01:14:05,315
Underground, but just like
real insider New York stuff.

1826
01:14:05,315 --> 01:14:07,925
But this is one of the records
I found, or, or maybe the only

1827
01:14:07,925 --> 01:14:11,345
one at that time, um, outside of
Black Coats from the Underground,

1828
01:14:11,345 --> 01:14:12,665
which came out a few months later.

1829
01:14:12,665 --> 01:14:15,215
I actually hadn't heard that
yet, but I'd heard do it live.

1830
01:14:15,215 --> 01:14:16,005
But yeah, this is, I mean.

1831
01:14:16,270 --> 01:14:20,115
The, the great, the legend Elvin Jones,
it's a kind of quirky record, but like.

1832
01:14:20,565 --> 01:14:24,375
In the eighties, even going back to
the late seventies, I think Palo Alto

1833
01:14:24,375 --> 01:14:27,764
records, there was a great, uh, gentleman
whose name I'm forgetting now who

1834
01:14:27,764 --> 01:14:29,535
started that and ran that record label.

1835
01:14:29,804 --> 01:14:32,415
And even like, I think the first
Dianne Reeves record was, he

1836
01:14:32,415 --> 01:14:34,665
actually had her do a jazz record.

1837
01:14:34,665 --> 01:14:36,254
I mean like some really great stuff.

1838
01:14:36,254 --> 01:14:39,165
And it was his studio and I think
he lived in Palo Alto, so that's

1839
01:14:39,165 --> 01:14:40,304
why it was called Palo Alto Records.

1840
01:14:44,174 --> 01:14:48,615
Kirk here as I'm editing the episode,
and the founder of Palo Alto Records

1841
01:14:48,615 --> 01:14:51,254
was named Jim Benham, who Yeah.

1842
01:14:51,254 --> 01:14:54,525
Founded it in 1981 in
Palo Alto, California.

1843
01:15:00,295 --> 01:15:00,505
Yeah.

1844
01:15:00,505 --> 01:15:01,165
Kenny Kirkland.

1845
01:15:03,085 --> 01:15:04,915
Yeah, man, he's a, a great player.

1846
01:15:05,335 --> 01:15:09,145
Um, well let's just go through your
other two, uh, music recommendations for

1847
01:15:09,145 --> 01:15:13,345
listeners since, uh, since we're coming
to the end of the episode, and I want to

1848
01:15:13,345 --> 01:15:14,905
give people even more things to listen to.

1849
01:15:14,995 --> 01:15:18,655
So number two is, uh, a Roy Hargrove
album that you guys just did an

1850
01:15:18,655 --> 01:15:22,615
episode on, uh, of, of, you'll
Hear it talking about this album.

1851
01:15:22,615 --> 01:15:24,265
This is one of my favorite
Roy Hargrove records.

1852
01:15:30,985 --> 01:15:31,255
Yeah.

1853
01:15:31,255 --> 01:15:31,885
Hard group.

1854
01:15:31,885 --> 01:15:36,625
So this is Rx Factor, his first,
uh, record with the Rh factor

1855
01:15:36,655 --> 01:15:38,035
Convi with, with that band.

1856
01:15:38,065 --> 01:15:38,155
Mm-hmm.

1857
01:15:38,605 --> 01:15:42,295
Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it's
top of my mind there, there's a bunch

1858
01:15:42,295 --> 01:15:43,795
of great Roy, I love Roy Hargrove.

1859
01:15:43,795 --> 01:15:45,445
I mean, I, I came up with him.

1860
01:15:45,805 --> 01:15:48,415
So it's, it's, it's bittersweet.

1861
01:15:48,415 --> 01:15:49,585
Every time I think about.

1862
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:53,470
Him, his or hear his music
because you know, he died.

1863
01:15:54,130 --> 01:15:54,400
Yeah.

1864
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:55,480
What, six years ago now?

1865
01:15:55,480 --> 01:15:56,830
Way, way too early.

1866
01:15:57,190 --> 01:16:00,670
And it's, it's really, I mean, it's like
one of those shocks in the jazz community,

1867
01:16:00,670 --> 01:16:02,140
especially for players around my age.

1868
01:16:02,170 --> 01:16:02,590
Yeah.

1869
01:16:02,770 --> 01:16:06,760
And it's kind of a hole that
it's gonna be, I don't know.

1870
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:08,140
It's, it's, it's not gonna be filled.

1871
01:16:08,140 --> 01:16:11,560
Like, 'cause he was just such an
influence and, and then he was such an

1872
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:13,720
influence on this current generation.

1873
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,955
The more I learn about that, um, I mean
he certainly influenced me, but, but.

1874
01:16:17,825 --> 01:16:20,525
Where, I mean, he's like a, he was like
a year older than me, so it was more

1875
01:16:20,525 --> 01:16:24,035
like we really came up together and, and
like I said, went and connected us back

1876
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:25,235
when we were in high school actually.

1877
01:16:25,955 --> 01:16:29,555
Um, but this record, like this was
very much something that he had

1878
01:16:29,555 --> 01:16:33,275
talked about doing, about doing like
a crossover project even back in like

1879
01:16:33,305 --> 01:16:36,875
mid nineties when, when I was working
with him and we even experimented

1880
01:16:36,875 --> 01:16:40,385
with some of the Parliament Funkadelic
stuff in the acoustic set setup Nice.

1881
01:16:40,445 --> 01:16:40,955
With that band.

1882
01:16:40,955 --> 01:16:44,165
So he'd always had, this was not
as big of a departure as I think a

1883
01:16:44,165 --> 01:16:47,014
lot of people thought was like, oh,
I'm doing all straight ahead stuff

1884
01:16:47,014 --> 01:16:51,305
and all of a sudden, so, but it was
controversial at that time, but I just

1885
01:16:51,305 --> 01:16:52,250
think he nailed it and talking about.

1886
01:16:52,755 --> 01:16:54,915
You know, DeAngelo, he's,
he's on this record.

1887
01:16:54,915 --> 01:16:55,335
He does?

1888
01:16:55,455 --> 01:16:55,725
Yep.

1889
01:16:55,815 --> 01:16:57,285
Um, let's stay.

1890
01:16:57,540 --> 01:16:58,485
Um, I'll stay.

1891
01:16:58,485 --> 01:16:58,965
I'll stay.

1892
01:16:58,965 --> 01:16:59,445
Yeah.

1893
01:16:59,595 --> 01:16:59,985
Yeah.

1894
01:16:59,985 --> 01:17:01,360
And, um, beautiful son,

1895
01:17:27,795 --> 01:17:29,145
beautiful, beautiful rendition.

1896
01:17:29,145 --> 01:17:30,855
And this is really coming out of.

1897
01:17:31,790 --> 01:17:37,370
I think as much of Roy's, you know,
upbringing in hip hop, like that really

1898
01:17:37,370 --> 01:17:41,270
being the pop music when we were coming
up, which it was a, a big part of it.

1899
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:45,800
Um, and then obviously jazz, funk
fusion, all the way from like

1900
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:49,790
weather reports stuff to more
like, you know, Herbie Hancock funk

1901
01:17:49,790 --> 01:17:51,830
type of stuff to Chicka Fusion.

1902
01:17:52,250 --> 01:17:53,070
Um, but I think.

1903
01:17:54,045 --> 01:17:57,615
And even bigger sort of immediate
influence on this project was what

1904
01:17:57,644 --> 01:18:01,755
the record he did that he was such
a big part of Voodoo of DeAngelos.

1905
01:18:01,785 --> 01:18:01,905
Yep.

1906
01:18:02,175 --> 01:18:04,665
That I think a lot of, well, and
this is like Russell Elva, right?

1907
01:18:04,665 --> 01:18:07,755
He produced our H Factor and
then all that neo soul stuff.

1908
01:18:07,875 --> 01:18:10,455
'cause like Erica Bedu is on this
record, common is on this record.

1909
01:18:10,455 --> 01:18:13,455
Like it's a lot of the same
musicians, uh, who were, who were

1910
01:18:13,455 --> 01:18:14,685
doing that stuff in New York.

1911
01:18:14,685 --> 01:18:16,965
So it, it totally makes sense
that there's that crossover.

1912
01:18:16,995 --> 01:18:17,325
Yeah.

1913
01:18:17,385 --> 01:18:19,035
So he was very influenced by that.

1914
01:18:19,035 --> 01:18:22,065
And it's at the, mostly recorded,
the same studio Electric Ladyland.

1915
01:18:22,090 --> 01:18:22,380
Yeah.

1916
01:18:22,385 --> 01:18:22,695
Yeah.

1917
01:18:22,695 --> 01:18:24,495
And, um, man, I love this album.

1918
01:18:24,525 --> 01:18:25,095
Um, yeah.

1919
01:18:25,095 --> 01:18:27,555
I love, I'll Stay the
DeAngelo song though.

1920
01:18:27,555 --> 01:18:29,865
I've, I've been listening to a lot
of DeAngelo just the last day at it.

1921
01:18:30,105 --> 01:18:32,175
Makes me very sad, but
it's nice to his music.

1922
01:18:32,475 --> 01:18:35,955
And then Pastor t actually,
which is a kind of random trek.

1923
01:18:35,955 --> 01:18:38,265
It's just this like uptempo funk song.

1924
01:18:38,265 --> 01:18:38,325
Yeah.

1925
01:18:38,595 --> 01:18:40,394
I'm not much of a drummer,
but I'm All right.

1926
01:18:40,394 --> 01:18:43,394
And I turn that one up when I'm
playing drums and it makes me think

1927
01:18:43,394 --> 01:18:44,955
that I'm as good as the record.

1928
01:18:45,045 --> 01:18:45,255
Yeah.

1929
01:18:45,285 --> 01:18:47,295
And, uh, that's such a killing song.

1930
01:18:47,295 --> 01:18:50,745
I mean, I've, I've heard it so many times
'cause I like warm up on drums playing to.

1931
01:18:50,820 --> 01:18:51,120
Yeah.

1932
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:52,920
But yeah, I love, love this band.

1933
01:18:53,099 --> 01:18:53,190
Yeah.

1934
01:18:53,190 --> 01:18:54,990
And I loved you guys'
episode about it too.

1935
01:18:54,990 --> 01:18:57,090
People can definitely go check
that out if they want to hear

1936
01:18:57,450 --> 01:18:58,590
you and Adam talking about it.

1937
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:02,639
Yeah.

1938
01:19:02,639 --> 01:19:06,690
It has one of the greatest,
it's such a e simple thing.

1939
01:19:07,170 --> 01:19:07,740
Mm-hmm.

1940
01:19:07,741 --> 01:19:07,751
Um.

1941
01:19:08,235 --> 01:19:11,205
But like that board fade as it comes in.

1942
01:19:11,535 --> 01:19:15,225
It's such a weird thing, like the
fact that it works so well though.

1943
01:19:22,725 --> 01:19:23,595
It does though.

1944
01:19:23,595 --> 01:19:24,885
And like no one does that.

1945
01:19:24,885 --> 01:19:26,445
People do fade out still sometimes.

1946
01:19:26,445 --> 01:19:29,235
But why not just have it,
it's like already in motion.

1947
01:19:29,445 --> 01:19:29,565
Yeah.

1948
01:19:29,635 --> 01:19:30,295
Here we go.

1949
01:19:30,355 --> 01:19:31,945
That's probably a Ross Elva thing.

1950
01:19:31,945 --> 01:19:32,845
That was probably his idea.

1951
01:19:32,845 --> 01:19:34,135
That's, it's such a cool call.

1952
01:19:34,135 --> 01:19:36,145
Yeah, that's, man, that
yeah, that is a great call.

1953
01:19:36,145 --> 01:19:38,935
That's something I might steal
just 'cause no one does it.

1954
01:19:38,935 --> 01:19:41,755
And it would sound, uh, and
it would sound really cool.

1955
01:19:41,785 --> 01:19:43,705
I mean, the timing of it
is everything for that.

1956
01:19:43,705 --> 01:19:46,135
That's like the, like you gotta,
like, they probably just went

1957
01:19:46,135 --> 01:19:47,335
back like, no, move it a little.

1958
01:19:47,335 --> 01:19:47,425
Mm-hmm.

1959
01:19:47,665 --> 01:19:47,960
Like, try it here.

1960
01:19:48,745 --> 01:19:49,075
Yeah.

1961
01:19:49,075 --> 01:19:49,225
You gotta nail that.

1962
01:19:49,225 --> 01:19:52,825
Well, 'cause really that Oh yeah,
man, I can talk about it forever.

1963
01:19:52,825 --> 01:19:55,555
Just, it, it kind of lands
right at the perfect moment

1964
01:19:55,825 --> 01:19:57,535
of Roy's solo kicking it off.

1965
01:19:57,535 --> 01:19:58,705
But, uh, yeah, I love that.

1966
01:19:59,095 --> 01:20:01,675
I love that album and that
band just totally rules.

1967
01:20:02,215 --> 01:20:02,665
Well, all right.

1968
01:20:02,665 --> 01:20:06,595
And so for number three, you've got a
classic that we, we referenced earlier.

1969
01:20:13,665 --> 01:20:17,085
Yeah, so this is Miles Davis,
Maya, funny Valentine live at, at,

1970
01:20:17,115 --> 01:20:18,945
uh, the Philharmonic, of course.

1971
01:20:19,155 --> 01:20:19,245
Mm-hmm.

1972
01:20:19,485 --> 01:20:20,925
Lincoln Center, a legendary concert.

1973
01:20:20,925 --> 01:20:24,075
Herbie Hancock Piano, George
Coleman Saxophone, Tony Williams,

1974
01:20:24,075 --> 01:20:25,515
drums, Ron Carter on Bass.

1975
01:20:25,665 --> 01:20:29,685
Like this record, I think is, I mean
this is not like an insider pick at all,

1976
01:20:30,165 --> 01:20:33,735
but No, but it's also not like, this
was a super influential record to me.

1977
01:20:33,735 --> 01:20:36,525
'cause this is like the first
like stuff when I was like,

1978
01:20:36,555 --> 01:20:37,725
oh my God, Herbie Hancock.

1979
01:20:37,725 --> 01:20:42,105
And I like tried to put every note on this
record of his, so I know it really well.

1980
01:20:42,105 --> 01:20:45,045
But you know, how is like, sometimes
you study a record so much, you're like,

1981
01:20:45,465 --> 01:20:48,015
you just have like ear, like you Yeah.

1982
01:20:48,105 --> 01:20:49,005
Fatigue from it.

1983
01:20:49,005 --> 01:20:49,185
You know?

1984
01:20:49,185 --> 01:20:50,850
I think a lot of people get
that with kind of blue, right?

1985
01:20:50,855 --> 01:20:51,015
Right.

1986
01:20:51,015 --> 01:20:53,415
They've heard it so many times,
studied it so much that then you have

1987
01:20:53,415 --> 01:20:56,065
to kind of get outta your brain and
then you listen to it and you're like,

1988
01:20:56,085 --> 01:20:57,330
oh, this is just a really good Yeah.

1989
01:20:57,330 --> 01:20:58,395
Really good album.

1990
01:20:58,905 --> 01:21:02,925
But this record for some reason, I've
never, like, I love it every day.

1991
01:21:02,925 --> 01:21:03,255
Yeah.

1992
01:21:03,255 --> 01:21:03,855
Every month.

1993
01:21:04,275 --> 01:21:04,610
Like it's never.

1994
01:21:05,190 --> 01:21:08,429
I, I've never turned away from
it, even for a hot second.

1995
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,629
And I think it's so, I love live
jazz records that are done well.

1996
01:21:12,629 --> 01:21:13,919
The sound is great on it.

1997
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:14,580
Yeah.

1998
01:21:14,580 --> 01:21:15,419
I mean, it's not perfect.

1999
01:21:15,419 --> 01:21:16,049
It's a live record.

2000
01:21:16,049 --> 01:21:17,309
It's not supposed to be perfect, you know?

2001
01:21:17,315 --> 01:21:17,674
Mm-hmm.

2002
01:21:17,754 --> 01:21:19,620
But I think it's sort
of miles at his peak.

2003
01:21:19,679 --> 01:21:22,559
You've got this young man, they
were all pissed off with miles.

2004
01:21:23,339 --> 01:21:23,549
Like they Yeah.

2005
01:21:23,554 --> 01:21:24,674
That's the story, the
stage, which is great.

2006
01:21:24,815 --> 01:21:25,115
You know?

2007
01:21:25,115 --> 01:21:25,514
That's fun.

2008
01:21:25,514 --> 01:21:25,835
Mm-hmm.

2009
01:21:25,934 --> 01:21:26,554
He was like, what?

2010
01:21:26,559 --> 01:21:27,120
Not paying them.

2011
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:28,410
He was like, this is
gonna be a charity gig.

2012
01:21:28,410 --> 01:21:28,469
Yeah.

2013
01:21:28,469 --> 01:21:29,250
And they, they were like.

2014
01:21:29,435 --> 01:21:31,715
Well do, you're rich and
we're not, you gotta pay us.

2015
01:21:32,165 --> 01:21:32,315
Yeah.

2016
01:21:32,315 --> 01:21:34,685
He rolled up in his like
Lamborghini I, his Ferrari.

2017
01:21:34,685 --> 01:21:36,185
It was like, oh yeah, let's not paid.

2018
01:21:36,185 --> 01:21:37,325
Let's go play the story.

2019
01:21:37,325 --> 01:21:40,025
And especially 'cause Coleman
just rips it apart on this.

2020
01:21:40,025 --> 01:21:43,265
And then on foreign more, which when
I was coming up foreign more, which

2021
01:21:43,265 --> 01:21:47,255
is the kind of uptempo, you know, B
sides, I guess it's the second release

2022
01:21:47,255 --> 01:21:49,025
of the same concert, same band.

2023
01:21:49,295 --> 01:21:49,475
Yeah.

2024
01:21:49,505 --> 01:21:53,495
Coleman just tears it apart on
foreign more and it's funny thinking

2025
01:21:53,495 --> 01:21:55,955
that he was just really pissed and
that, yeah, that was part of why

2026
01:21:55,955 --> 01:21:57,605
he played so well with such fire.

2027
01:21:57,935 --> 01:21:59,915
I'm sure Miles took credit for
like Yeah, I was just trying

2028
01:21:59,915 --> 01:22:00,905
to piss him off so they played.

2029
01:22:00,965 --> 01:22:01,415
Oh yeah.

2030
01:22:01,415 --> 01:22:02,195
Right, right, right.

2031
01:22:02,195 --> 01:22:03,065
It's all mind games.

2032
01:22:03,065 --> 01:22:04,355
These Machiavelli over here.

2033
01:22:04,595 --> 01:22:04,895
Yeah.

2034
01:22:16,205 --> 01:22:18,005
Yeah, that's a great
record and a great pick.

2035
01:22:18,065 --> 01:22:21,035
Um, and one that, yeah, like I said, I,
I listened to four and more, a little

2036
01:22:21,035 --> 01:22:25,144
more coming up and just you picking this
when I was, you know, prepping for this

2037
01:22:25,144 --> 01:22:26,525
episode, I went back and listened to it.

2038
01:22:26,525 --> 01:22:27,785
And Nan, what a record.

2039
01:22:27,785 --> 01:22:29,705
That's Stella by Starlight on this record.

2040
01:22:29,795 --> 01:22:30,665
Oh, maybe the best.

2041
01:22:30,755 --> 01:22:33,245
I, it's one of my favorite versions
of Cell by Starlight now that I've

2042
01:22:33,245 --> 01:22:36,305
been back listening to it, like
it's just a beautiful rendition.

2043
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:36,690
Yeah.

2044
01:22:36,910 --> 01:22:40,655
And, uh, yeah, really great, great
record and yeah, maybe not an inside

2045
01:22:40,655 --> 01:22:43,505
pick, but one that everybody listening
to this could stand to go listen to.

2046
01:22:43,745 --> 01:22:47,639
Yeah, and I mean, if anybody wants
to go on a. A deep, kind of beautiful

2047
01:22:47,639 --> 01:22:49,950
rabbit hole around that band.

2048
01:22:50,219 --> 01:22:54,300
Um, there was, uh, and when I got
a chance to interview and, and work

2049
01:22:54,300 --> 01:22:56,969
with Ron Carter, something I remember
asking about this and like, he had

2050
01:22:56,969 --> 01:23:00,990
such clarity of that period, I was
shocked that he, man remember, like,

2051
01:23:00,990 --> 01:23:02,250
I'm trying to remember the nineties.

2052
01:23:02,460 --> 01:23:04,500
This dude, I'm trying to
remember my neighbor's name.

2053
01:23:04,590 --> 01:23:06,120
I'm trying to remember what
happened to me yesterday.

2054
01:23:06,210 --> 01:23:09,210
Ron Carter like remembers the bass
on the certain gig on the tour.

2055
01:23:09,210 --> 01:23:09,865
Oh man, man.

2056
01:23:09,870 --> 01:23:10,019
Yeah.

2057
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,990
But it's like, basically they were
playing the same repertoire, like the

2058
01:23:12,990 --> 01:23:17,190
four more stuff that my friend, I'm
from this concert for like about a year.

2059
01:23:17,190 --> 01:23:18,660
Oh no, it was less than a year, he said.

2060
01:23:18,929 --> 01:23:22,110
But they did this like Europe tour
where they played, you know, like

2061
01:23:22,110 --> 01:23:23,849
Autumn Leaves and Stella by Starlight.

2062
01:23:23,969 --> 01:23:24,150
Mm-hmm.

2063
01:23:24,389 --> 01:23:26,519
And on Green Dolphin Street, it was
like, before they were doing, it

2064
01:23:26,519 --> 01:23:29,130
was before Wayne Shorter came in
and they started doing, you know,

2065
01:23:29,130 --> 01:23:31,710
other kind of material and like.

2066
01:23:32,670 --> 01:23:34,335
There, there's a bunch of records.

2067
01:23:34,335 --> 01:23:36,974
There's like live, there's one called
Live in Europe that's kind of in and

2068
01:23:36,974 --> 01:23:41,535
out of print, but it was live in,
in Antibe, uh, Juan Lapin, France

2069
01:23:41,535 --> 01:23:42,644
from that great festival there.

2070
01:23:42,644 --> 01:23:44,835
That's a stunning live
record, like almost.

2071
01:23:44,835 --> 01:23:45,315
Oh, nice.

2072
01:23:45,315 --> 01:23:48,555
I would actually say that's kind
of on the level for me with this

2073
01:23:48,555 --> 01:23:50,684
band as, as my kind Valentine.

2074
01:23:51,045 --> 01:23:54,315
Um, and then there's like
Live in Tokyo, live in Berlin.

2075
01:23:54,345 --> 01:23:56,775
There's all these, and they're
playing like a lot of the same songs.

2076
01:23:56,775 --> 01:23:58,035
The saxophone has changed a little.

2077
01:23:58,035 --> 01:24:01,305
'cause when Coleman left before
Wayne Shorter came in, they had, um.

2078
01:24:02,700 --> 01:24:03,480
I can't remember who.

2079
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:04,830
Somebody Sunny Stitt.

2080
01:24:04,830 --> 01:24:06,150
Maybe There's a couple.

2081
01:24:06,150 --> 01:24:06,360
Really?

2082
01:24:06,450 --> 01:24:08,250
Yeah, there was a couple of
little things, but it was mostly

2083
01:24:08,250 --> 01:24:09,600
George Coleman on that stuff.

2084
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:10,080
Nice.

2085
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:13,080
But there's a lot of live kind of
bootlegs type stuff that's pretty

2086
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:15,810
available that you can just, if
you wanna hear five versions of

2087
01:24:15,810 --> 01:24:19,530
how these masters played, autumn
leaves, like kind of different, like

2088
01:24:19,530 --> 01:24:21,515
surprisingly different night to night.

2089
01:24:21,515 --> 01:24:21,755
Mm-hmm.

2090
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:22,110
You know?

2091
01:24:22,110 --> 01:24:23,850
But it's very spontaneous, very exciting.

2092
01:24:24,455 --> 01:24:24,755
Yeah.

2093
01:24:24,755 --> 01:24:25,385
That's cool.

2094
01:24:25,385 --> 01:24:25,625
Yeah.

2095
01:24:25,625 --> 01:24:28,535
I hope some people out there do that
deep dive, like finding those, especially

2096
01:24:28,535 --> 01:24:33,095
those kind of two great Miles groups,
you know, the 58 group, the kind of

2097
01:24:33,095 --> 01:24:35,105
blue group with train in, in Cannonball.

2098
01:24:35,165 --> 01:24:35,375
Yeah.

2099
01:24:35,375 --> 01:24:38,375
And then this, this later group with
Tony Williams and Ron and, and Herbie.

2100
01:24:38,555 --> 01:24:38,645
Yeah.

2101
01:24:38,645 --> 01:24:41,975
Like listening to other versions
of these songs, which I've

2102
01:24:42,035 --> 01:24:44,645
actually haven't done that much
of, uh, is probably a lot of fun.

2103
01:24:44,915 --> 01:24:45,005
Yeah.

2104
01:24:45,005 --> 01:24:47,165
It seems like you'll, you'll
hear the songs evolve over

2105
01:24:47,165 --> 01:24:48,275
time, which is really cool.

2106
01:24:48,485 --> 01:24:48,665
Yep.

2107
01:24:49,175 --> 01:24:50,915
Well, nice man, this has been a delight.

2108
01:24:50,975 --> 01:24:51,335
Wow.

2109
01:24:51,335 --> 01:24:52,685
There's a lot of listening to do.

2110
01:24:52,685 --> 01:24:53,465
Everyone listening to this.

2111
01:24:53,465 --> 01:24:56,705
You have, you have your assignments,
you got your links, go uh, go listen

2112
01:24:56,705 --> 01:24:59,945
to some of this music and check out
Open Studio and check out Peter's

2113
01:24:59,945 --> 01:25:03,575
music as well, because there's a lot
of really great stuff there as well.

2114
01:25:04,115 --> 01:25:05,525
Peter Martin, this was so much fun.

2115
01:25:05,525 --> 01:25:06,725
Thanks for coming on the show, man.

2116
01:25:06,730 --> 01:25:07,355
Man, thank you, Kirk.

2117
01:25:07,355 --> 01:25:08,885
Keep it strong as always.

2118
01:25:08,885 --> 01:25:13,535
I know you will and, uh, much I will
much love and listening enjoyment

2119
01:25:13,535 --> 01:25:17,165
to all your listeners and to the,
uh, the podcast music community.

2120
01:25:17,345 --> 01:25:17,975
Cheers, man.

2121
01:25:17,975 --> 01:25:18,365
Cheers.

2122
01:25:18,365 --> 01:25:18,455
Peace.

2123
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:26,440
And that'll do it for my interview with
the one and only Peter Martin for a

2124
01:25:26,440 --> 01:25:29,440
list of all the recordings you heard
excerpts from in this episode, check

2125
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:32,620
out the show notes and I really do
hope you'll go and check out some of

2126
01:25:32,620 --> 01:25:34,809
the great players that we discussed.

2127
01:25:35,139 --> 01:25:37,090
I also hope you'll check out Open Studio.

2128
01:25:37,090 --> 01:25:40,599
It's pretty cool what Peter and his
crew are doing over there in St. Louis.

2129
01:25:40,929 --> 01:25:41,620
I love that town.

2130
01:25:41,620 --> 01:25:44,410
I actually have some friends with
the family there, so maybe one day

2131
01:25:44,410 --> 01:25:48,130
I will swing by their studio and
see what they're up to in person.

2132
01:25:48,519 --> 01:25:51,490
At any rate, as always, if you
enjoy strong songs, I hope you'll

2133
01:25:51,490 --> 01:25:52,809
consider supporting the show.

2134
01:25:53,019 --> 01:25:55,990
I don't sell ads or have sponsors
or anything like that, so I really

2135
01:25:55,990 --> 01:25:59,170
do count on listener support
to keep this whole thing going.

2136
01:25:59,380 --> 01:26:02,830
There is a link for various ways you can
support the show down in the show notes.

2137
01:26:02,889 --> 01:26:04,330
I hope you'll give that a look.

2138
01:26:04,750 --> 01:26:06,070
Alright, that'll do it for now.

2139
01:26:06,130 --> 01:26:08,200
Work continues on season
eight of the show.

2140
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:12,450
I'm very ex. Excited about it and pretty
excited about music in general these days.

2141
01:26:12,870 --> 01:26:15,179
For now though, I will catch
you the next time around.

2142
01:26:15,540 --> 01:26:17,460
Take care and keep listening.