Matt Abrahams: One of the fundamental truths about trust is it's about
open, transparent communication.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking with Richard Edelman.
Richard is the president and CEO of Edelman, a leading global
communications marketing firm.
Richard is widely recognized for his thought leadership in marketing
and PR, and he focuses on issues related to corporate trust, brand
reputation, and social responsibility.
Edelman produces the highly regarded annual Edelman Trust Barometer,
which surveys trust and credibility in various institutions globally,
providing key insights for all of us.
Welcome, Richard.
I am so thrilled that our mutual friend, David Demarest, introduced us together.
Thanks for being here.
Richard Edelman: Glad to be here.
Matt Abrahams: I'd like to start by talking about trust and the
findings and applications of your Edelman Trust Barometer.
How has the concept of trust evolved in the business world in the last
decade or so and what are some of the key factors driving those changes?
Richard Edelman: I think trust has become the, uh, central proposition for
institutions in the last twenty-five years, and I think the big developments
in that period of time are first, the loss of belief in leaders.
Two thirds of people literally believe leaders lie to them now, business leaders,
government leaders, even journalists.
The mass class divide, the bottom quartile and the top quartile, have fundamentally
different views of the world.
The idea that trust historically was conveyed top down, then
fifteen years ago, it started to go horizontal to peers, friends, family.
And more recently, trust has gone local, into my company,
my CEO, my company newsletter.
And the last big development is that business is the most trusted
institution, the head of government, business, and NGOs, because it's the
only one, both competent and ethical.
So those are the four big developments.
Matt Abrahams: The Edelman Trust Barometer has become a significant tool for
understanding public trust in general.
What advice do you have for individuals or managers who have experienced a
significant breach of trust in their personal or professional relationships?
How can we effectively rebuild that trust?
Richard Edelman: Really important that you acknowledge and that you
show a path to fixing it, and whether you've picked the wrong creator or
whether you have the wrong policy for an airplane that's overbooked.
Just fix the policy, tell people how it happened, why it happened,
and what you're doing to fix it, and show proof that it's fixed.
But don't get mixed up in, in your own knitting and over survey people.
Just decide, do, communicate.
Matt Abrahams: I like that.
Decide, do, communicate, and make it clear.
And then it sounded also that you demonstrate that you've
actually done it, right, so that people see you followed through.
I appreciate that, and that helps not just with businesses, but
individuals within those businesses.
I have noticed a trend.
I'd be curious to know if you've seen it, and I'd like your thoughts on it.
There seems to be a movement towards leaders needing to be social media
influencers with personal branding becoming increasingly important.
Do you see that trend?
And what advice do you have for professionals looking to build
trust and credibility through their social media presence?
Richard Edelman: I think for CEOs it's more appropriate to
communicate through LinkedIn, maybe short form YouTube captures of
your remarks at corporate events.
I wouldn't say that people expect CEOs to do personal branding.
They do though want see the person in longer form media that exposes
the person's more true self.
You have to be willing to go through the ordeal of media and
that way people can get to know you.
Matt Abrahams: And that sounds like, what the key advice is that you're sharing,
is that you need to allow yourself to show who you are and you need to find
the right channel or media to do that.
It's more than just sticking to sound bites and memes.
It's really having a, a message and at least being perceived to
be open to sharing that message.
It seems to me that the, the type of media that people are
going to is changing a bit.
Are you seeing a shift in the type of media that can help
relay trust and credibility?
Is there a change that you're noticing?
Richard Edelman: Edelman's about put out a report on conservative media ecosystem.
There are a few things one can notice.
One is, more frequent posting, B is, longer form.
And there's multiple levels.
One is, real personalities, the second is, more intellectuals, and then the third
is, people who cover more forms of media.
So in other words, it's almost like lifestyle.
It's almost like a version of Good Morning America or something.
So it's three levels.
Matt Abrahams: And it's interesting to think about a communication strategy
that looks at each of those levels.
So it might be somebody who's looking to advocate for themselves or build
an audience that they would actually strategically target those different
types of media and perhaps their messages towards those types of media.
I teach strategic communication, so it becomes a really interesting strategic
plan to, uh, get your messages out.
Richard Edelman: Well, it's completely insufficient to just
go to mainstream media now.
You can't.
You have to talk to creators.
You also have to talk to this new ecosystem of people who
are podcasters and otherwise.
Matt Abrahams: So you're getting the message out is very
different than it used to be.
And the people who are being successful, I think, understand that.
I wanna switch back to the obligatory AI question with the rapid advancement of
technology, AI, and as we talked about the changing media landscapes, what do
you see as the biggest opportunities and the biggest challenges for the
future of how organizations communicate and present themselves to the world?
Richard Edelman: I had my AI team actually put in my twenty plus years
of blogs, and I've written a blog every week for twenty years, which is in
my voice, and a lot of it's stuff is talking about trust, one form or another.
I'm writing a blog about the pandemic and five years on and I put in some ideas of
what I want and, you know, ChatGPT helps me in ten minutes to write the blog.
The productivity is stunning.
We're still trying to figure out, does it change our organizational
structure, does it change our workflows?
All these things.
Matt Abrahams: Are there concerns you have, I mean, you've shared that
it can help and I certainly agree.
I use it, uh, in much the same way you do it.
It helps me craft outlines more quickly and then I can expand on it.
Have you personally experienced or are you seeing in some of the data you
collect some concerns about AI and trust?
Richard Edelman: It's a first draft of history.
Let's put it this way, it should not be your final draft.
Matt Abrahams: I like that it's a first draft and I think many of us
jump to try to make it a last draft.
Drawing on your extensive career and experience, what are some key
qualities and skills that you believe are essential for the next generation
of leaders when it comes to personal communication, trust, et cetera?
Richard Edelman: I think you have to be a citizen of the world to the extent that if
you have the ability to travel, you must.
The idea that somehow all concepts emanate from the fifty
States is deeply fallacious.
I also believe that one must really be willing to expose your thinking
to those who have a fundamentally different approach to not just
politics, but to how to live.
And even at seventy, I'm trying to, my wife is much more interested
in the arts and things like that, so I'm trying to expose myself to
Cirque Soleil and art shows and things, and it makes you broader.
Matt Abrahams: That notion of being a citizen of the world, I think is
a really important one, and I'm glad you're enjoying Cirque de Soleil.
I, and the teams that I work on, always try to find somebody who has
divergent or different views from me.
And while it can be certainly frustrating at times, I have found
that having a devil's advocate makes the work better and makes me better.
Richard, before we end, I like to ask all my guests three questions.
One, I create just for you, and the other two are similar
across everybody I talk to.
Are you up for that?
Richard Edelman: Sure.
Matt Abrahams: If I were to invite you to speak to my class of Stanford MBAs
and said, would you mind helping them understand the importance of trust
and what they could do as young and aspiring managers to really focus on
trust, what would you share with them?
Richard Edelman: I went to business school in a time when profit
maximization and, was the sort of sole objective of business.
I was HBS class of seventy-eight.
And I remember we had a, uh, case on company wasn't doing well and
the sort of guys who were gonna go into management consulting were
like, just fire half the staff.
Either that or close the factory.
And I, I think I remember sticking my head up and going, maybe another way,
maybe we could reduce their wages, maybe we could train them, maybe, you
know, and I got in quite a pitch battle.
And I want students have that debate.
I don't want them to rush to an answer.
Because there are multiple ways to have a strategy and you want
your employees on your side.
And the communications business has been a little rough the last two years.
We had a huge rush after COVID and we've had to go through a couple
of, uh, reductions in staffing.
And whenever I do this, I explain the complete context.
I say, here are the numbers, here's what I have to do.
I hate it.
I've held on as long as I could.
And I'll do my best to A, give people good severance, but B,
give them a good reference.
And they'll have always had the experience here.
And here's my strategy for turning around, but the broader point is I want
your students to also be recognizing responsibility they have to society more
broadly and, and it can be done in the context of making money, but business
opportunity comes from serving a need.
Matt Abrahams: So what I hear in that answer is a few things.
One, it's not finding the easy answer.
It's actually engaging and being thoughtful about what's involved.
And there are lots of levers to pull in your leadership and in the role you have
and you need to discuss and debate that.
And then when you do have to take action, part of trust is being
transparent and being empathetic to those who are affected.
And, and I think those are really important lessons for all of us to learn.
And I appreciate that.
Let me ask question number two.
Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Richard Edelman: I've always appreciated Howard Schultz.
Maybe 'cause he grew up poor in Brooklyn and was not to the manor born.
He understood, for example, when he came back in 2007, 2008,
he had to close the stores and reteach people how to make coffee.
The the first principles is do what you do well.
And do it affordably and stop this theory of continuous raising
prices and be of good value.
And similarly, Hamdi Ulukaya of Chobani, he's, he's got a really strong, uh,
sense of being an immigrant and, and he's employed people from Syria and
whatever in his plants and, but, but he inspires people about the value of
food and the necessity of it, but Howard had the third place for Starbucks and
Hamdi has affordable, good for you food.
He's not gonna be satisfied with less.
And they talk in a way that makes you wanna follow.
Matt Abrahams: Give me more on that.
What is it that they do?
So they ask questions or they say things in a provocative manner?
Richard Edelman: I think they're less provocative and they're more big picture.
They're not business narrow cat, which I think is a weakness often of MBAs because
we are taught to be hugely analytical and focused, but in fact, you should be broad
spectrum in order to come to solution.
Matt Abrahams: Again, considering multiple perspectives and taking
a step back before moving forward.
Thank you for sharing that.
Our final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into
a successful communication recipe?
Richard Edelman: I think action builds trust.
If you don't do something, you can't talk about it.
The second is to speak broadly, meaning talk to your employees first and then
talk to other stakeholders, so inside out.
And then the third is as there's been dispersion of authority, you have to
talk, but then the employees have to talk.
It has to be a cadence and there has to be a broad inclusion
of forms of, of, of media.
Again, from creators to podcasters to mainstream.
You can start things in social now very effectively and then
finish up with mainstream.
You can't assume that you should go first necessarily to the
New York Times or something.
You, you may be better served with a podcast or other who
gives you popular support.
Matt Abrahams: I like the notion of inside out, makes a lot of sense.
And then thinking about the landscape and where your message
best fits first, and then move to the other types of outlets in media.
Thank you for your time and thank you for your insights.
Richard Edelman: Thank you for having me.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
For more on trust, please listen to episode 156 with Jamil Zaki.
This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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