WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: One of the fundamental
truths about trust is it's about

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open, transparent communication.

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My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I look forward to
speaking with Richard Edelman.

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Richard is the president and
CEO of Edelman, a leading global

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communications marketing firm.

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Richard is widely recognized for
his thought leadership in marketing

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and PR, and he focuses on issues
related to corporate trust, brand

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reputation, and social responsibility.

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Edelman produces the highly regarded
annual Edelman Trust Barometer,

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which surveys trust and credibility
in various institutions globally,

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providing key insights for all of us.

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Welcome, Richard.

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I am so thrilled that our mutual friend,
David Demarest, introduced us together.

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Thanks for being here.

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Richard Edelman: Glad to be here.

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Matt Abrahams: I'd like to start
by talking about trust and the

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findings and applications of
your Edelman Trust Barometer.

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How has the concept of trust evolved
in the business world in the last

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decade or so and what are some of the
key factors driving those changes?

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Richard Edelman: I think trust has
become the, uh, central proposition for

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institutions in the last twenty-five
years, and I think the big developments

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in that period of time are first,
the loss of belief in leaders.

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Two thirds of people literally believe
leaders lie to them now, business leaders,

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government leaders, even journalists.

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The mass class divide, the bottom quartile
and the top quartile, have fundamentally

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different views of the world.

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The idea that trust historically
was conveyed top down, then

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fifteen years ago, it started to go
horizontal to peers, friends, family.

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And more recently, trust has
gone local, into my company,

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my CEO, my company newsletter.

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And the last big development is
that business is the most trusted

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institution, the head of government,
business, and NGOs, because it's the

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only one, both competent and ethical.

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So those are the four big developments.

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Matt Abrahams: The Edelman Trust Barometer
has become a significant tool for

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understanding public trust in general.

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What advice do you have for individuals
or managers who have experienced a

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significant breach of trust in their
personal or professional relationships?

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How can we effectively rebuild that trust?

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Richard Edelman: Really important
that you acknowledge and that you

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show a path to fixing it, and whether
you've picked the wrong creator or

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whether you have the wrong policy
for an airplane that's overbooked.

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Just fix the policy, tell people
how it happened, why it happened,

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and what you're doing to fix it,
and show proof that it's fixed.

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But don't get mixed up in, in your
own knitting and over survey people.

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Just decide, do, communicate.

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Matt Abrahams: I like that.

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Decide, do, communicate,
and make it clear.

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And then it sounded also that
you demonstrate that you've

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actually done it, right, so that
people see you followed through.

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I appreciate that, and that helps
not just with businesses, but

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individuals within those businesses.

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I have noticed a trend.

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I'd be curious to know if you've seen
it, and I'd like your thoughts on it.

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There seems to be a movement towards
leaders needing to be social media

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influencers with personal branding
becoming increasingly important.

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Do you see that trend?

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And what advice do you have for
professionals looking to build

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trust and credibility through
their social media presence?

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Richard Edelman: I think for
CEOs it's more appropriate to

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communicate through LinkedIn, maybe
short form YouTube captures of

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your remarks at corporate events.

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I wouldn't say that people expect
CEOs to do personal branding.

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They do though want see the person
in longer form media that exposes

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the person's more true self.

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You have to be willing to go
through the ordeal of media and

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that way people can get to know you.

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Matt Abrahams: And that sounds like, what
the key advice is that you're sharing,

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is that you need to allow yourself to
show who you are and you need to find

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the right channel or media to do that.

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It's more than just sticking
to sound bites and memes.

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It's really having a, a message
and at least being perceived to

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be open to sharing that message.

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It seems to me that the, the
type of media that people are

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going to is changing a bit.

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Are you seeing a shift in the
type of media that can help

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relay trust and credibility?

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Is there a change that you're noticing?

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Richard Edelman: Edelman's about put out
a report on conservative media ecosystem.

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There are a few things one can notice.

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One is, more frequent
posting, B is, longer form.

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And there's multiple levels.

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One is, real personalities, the second
is, more intellectuals, and then the third

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is, people who cover more forms of media.

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So in other words, it's
almost like lifestyle.

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It's almost like a version of
Good Morning America or something.

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So it's three levels.

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Matt Abrahams: And it's interesting to
think about a communication strategy

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that looks at each of those levels.

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So it might be somebody who's looking
to advocate for themselves or build

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an audience that they would actually
strategically target those different

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types of media and perhaps their
messages towards those types of media.

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I teach strategic communication, so it
becomes a really interesting strategic

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plan to, uh, get your messages out.

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Richard Edelman: Well, it's
completely insufficient to just

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go to mainstream media now.

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You can't.

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You have to talk to creators.

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You also have to talk to this
new ecosystem of people who

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are podcasters and otherwise.

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Matt Abrahams: So you're
getting the message out is very

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different than it used to be.

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And the people who are being
successful, I think, understand that.

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I wanna switch back to the obligatory AI
question with the rapid advancement of

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technology, AI, and as we talked about
the changing media landscapes, what do

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you see as the biggest opportunities
and the biggest challenges for the

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future of how organizations communicate
and present themselves to the world?

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Richard Edelman: I had my AI team
actually put in my twenty plus years

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of blogs, and I've written a blog every
week for twenty years, which is in

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my voice, and a lot of it's stuff is
talking about trust, one form or another.

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I'm writing a blog about the pandemic and
five years on and I put in some ideas of

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what I want and, you know, ChatGPT helps
me in ten minutes to write the blog.

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The productivity is stunning.

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We're still trying to figure out,
does it change our organizational

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structure, does it change our workflows?

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All these things.

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Matt Abrahams: Are there concerns
you have, I mean, you've shared that

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it can help and I certainly agree.

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I use it, uh, in much
the same way you do it.

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It helps me craft outlines more
quickly and then I can expand on it.

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Have you personally experienced or
are you seeing in some of the data you

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collect some concerns about AI and trust?

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Richard Edelman: It's a
first draft of history.

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Let's put it this way, it
should not be your final draft.

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Matt Abrahams: I like that it's a
first draft and I think many of us

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jump to try to make it a last draft.

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Drawing on your extensive career
and experience, what are some key

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qualities and skills that you believe
are essential for the next generation

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of leaders when it comes to personal
communication, trust, et cetera?

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Richard Edelman: I think you have to be a
citizen of the world to the extent that if

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you have the ability to travel, you must.

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The idea that somehow all
concepts emanate from the fifty

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States is deeply fallacious.

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I also believe that one must really
be willing to expose your thinking

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to those who have a fundamentally
different approach to not just

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politics, but to how to live.

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And even at seventy, I'm trying
to, my wife is much more interested

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in the arts and things like that,
so I'm trying to expose myself to

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Cirque Soleil and art shows and
things, and it makes you broader.

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Matt Abrahams: That notion of being
a citizen of the world, I think is

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a really important one, and I'm glad
you're enjoying Cirque de Soleil.

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I, and the teams that I work on,
always try to find somebody who has

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divergent or different views from me.

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And while it can be certainly
frustrating at times, I have found

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that having a devil's advocate makes
the work better and makes me better.

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Richard, before we end, I like to
ask all my guests three questions.

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One, I create just for you,
and the other two are similar

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across everybody I talk to.

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Are you up for that?

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Richard Edelman: Sure.

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Matt Abrahams: If I were to invite you
to speak to my class of Stanford MBAs

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and said, would you mind helping them
understand the importance of trust

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and what they could do as young and
aspiring managers to really focus on

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trust, what would you share with them?

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Richard Edelman: I went to business
school in a time when profit

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maximization and, was the sort
of sole objective of business.

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I was HBS class of seventy-eight.

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And I remember we had a, uh, case
on company wasn't doing well and

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the sort of guys who were gonna
go into management consulting were

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like, just fire half the staff.

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Either that or close the factory.

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And I, I think I remember sticking my
head up and going, maybe another way,

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maybe we could reduce their wages,
maybe we could train them, maybe, you

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know, and I got in quite a pitch battle.

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And I want students have that debate.

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I don't want them to rush to an answer.

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Because there are multiple ways
to have a strategy and you want

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your employees on your side.

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And the communications business has
been a little rough the last two years.

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We had a huge rush after COVID and
we've had to go through a couple

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of, uh, reductions in staffing.

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And whenever I do this, I
explain the complete context.

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I say, here are the numbers,
here's what I have to do.

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I hate it.

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I've held on as long as I could.

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And I'll do my best to A, give
people good severance, but B,

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give them a good reference.

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And they'll have always
had the experience here.

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And here's my strategy for turning
around, but the broader point is I want

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your students to also be recognizing
responsibility they have to society more

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broadly and, and it can be done in the
context of making money, but business

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opportunity comes from serving a need.

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Matt Abrahams: So what I hear
in that answer is a few things.

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One, it's not finding the easy answer.

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It's actually engaging and being
thoughtful about what's involved.

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And there are lots of levers to pull in
your leadership and in the role you have

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and you need to discuss and debate that.

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And then when you do have to take
action, part of trust is being

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transparent and being empathetic
to those who are affected.

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And, and I think those are really
important lessons for all of us to learn.

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And I appreciate that.

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Let me ask question number two.

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Who is a communicator
that you admire and why?

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Richard Edelman: I've always
appreciated Howard Schultz.

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Maybe 'cause he grew up poor in
Brooklyn and was not to the manor born.

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He understood, for example,
when he came back in 2007, 2008,

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he had to close the stores and
reteach people how to make coffee.

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The the first principles
is do what you do well.

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And do it affordably and stop
this theory of continuous raising

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prices and be of good value.

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And similarly,  Hamdi Ulukaya of Chobani,
he's, he's got a really strong, uh,

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sense of being an immigrant and, and
he's employed people from Syria and

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whatever in his plants and, but, but
he inspires people about the value of

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food and the necessity of it, but Howard
had the third place for Starbucks and

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Hamdi has affordable, good for you food.

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He's not gonna be satisfied with less.

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And they talk in a way that
makes you wanna follow.

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Matt Abrahams: Give me more on that.

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What is it that they do?

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So they ask questions or they say
things in a provocative manner?

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Richard Edelman: I think they're less
provocative and they're more big picture.

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They're not business narrow cat, which I
think is a weakness often of MBAs because

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we are taught to be hugely analytical and
focused, but in fact, you should be broad

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spectrum in order to come to solution.

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Matt Abrahams: Again, considering
multiple perspectives and taking

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a step back before moving forward.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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Our final question, what are the
first three ingredients that go into

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a successful communication recipe?

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Richard Edelman: I think
action builds trust.

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If you don't do something,
you can't talk about it.

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The second is to speak broadly, meaning
talk to your employees first and then

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talk to other stakeholders, so inside out.

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And then the third is as there's been
dispersion of authority, you have to

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talk, but then the employees have to talk.

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It has to be a cadence and there
has to be a broad inclusion

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of forms of, of, of media.

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Again, from creators to
podcasters to mainstream.

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You can start things in social
now very effectively and then

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finish up with mainstream.

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You can't assume that you should
go first necessarily to the

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New York Times or something.

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You, you may be better served
with a podcast or other who

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gives you popular support.

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Matt Abrahams: I like the notion of
inside out, makes a lot of sense.

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And then thinking about the
landscape and where your message

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best fits first, and then move to
the other types of outlets in media.

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Thank you for your time and
thank you for your insights.

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Richard Edelman: Thank you for having me.

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Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

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Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

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For more on trust, please listen
to episode 156 with Jamil Zaki.

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This episode was produced by Ryan
Campos and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:14:24.435 --> 00:14:26.055
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:14:26.145 --> 00:14:28.755
With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

00:14:29.265 --> 00:14:32.685
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

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