Kevin: Welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin,
Rob: and me, Rob,
Kevin: and we have a heck of a Star Trek to talk about today, Rob.
Rob: Wow.
What a, uh, turn from the most, you know, the most recent affairs of Star
Trek, um, Academy have been quite light in, its, in, its, uh, in its dealing of
Kevin: Lulled us into a false sense of hijinks and, uh, man.
Yes, a big tone shift this episode.
Rob: Massive tone shift.
Uh, did you think they, uh, pulled it off?
Kevin: Yeah, I did, I did, Rob.
That was, ah, that was delectable.
I felt like I had nothing to say.
After so, so many of these episodes.
I was like, that's good, and I can understand why.
I just felt like the good was so overwhelming this episode that it was
kind of a conversation stopper for me.
I, I needed some time to process after watching it.
How about you, Rob?
Rob: Yes, very much.
Uh, um, it, everything just kept on going.
And there was a point where I'm going, well, this is the
point where the good guys win.
This will be the point where they turn it around, they're being clever and smart.
And, um, then it was the revelation of going, oh no, they're leaning into this.
Oh no, they are doing this.
Oh, this is a complete and abject failure on the part of
all our, our characters involved.
And we can be grateful that we didn't lose more lives of people on screen as opposed
to the ones that were lost off screen.
Um, yeah, it was a. It was a bitter pill to swallow.
But that's the, that's type of the balance of what we like about Star Trek
is being able to play one or the other.
Kevin: Yeah, the wins don't matter if there's no losses.
Rob: Exactly.
Exactly.
We need, you know, the light shines brighter, um, you
know, within the darkness.
Um, but yes, especially being a fan of Deep Space Nine, which, uh, is known for,
its, uh, focus on the dark and the tone shift, um, I'm there, I was ready for it.
And I think it adapted well within what we've been getting with our,
you know, our, our young adult type of light high school drama affair.
This definitely leaned into these kids are not ready.
And in many ways, you know, Ake and our grownups have underestimated,
Kevin: Caught flatfooted.
Rob: Yeah, not really underestimated, but just been, you know, outplayed.
Kevin: Uh, the show kicked off with a bit of canoodling with Caleb and,
uh, Tarima in the, uh, field of yellow flowers and also, um, on a
bench by the Golden Gate Bridge.
I, I'm a bit of a camera nerd, and those shots of them sitting on the bench with,
with the bridge in the background, the bridge was large, and that tells me that
they were shot from quite a distance with a real, super powerful telephoto lens.
And so when I saw that shot, I was like, wow, that's an amazing lens.
And, uh, I'm, I'm sure that's not what we were meant to be
thinking in that moment, but,
Rob: The cinematographer will be very happy with you.
Kevin: The bridge was there, and I don't even know if that's the real bridge
because it had the solar panels that we've come to know from this far off Star Trek
future that that bridge is now because there's no cars to drive across that
they've covered it with solar panels.
And that's been true since, uh, the era of Star Trek: Picard.
Um, and so seeing them here, the cinematography looked so
analog in a satisfying way.
It made it look like a real shot shot through real glass, with real
heat haze warping the bridge in the background, and yet the solar panels
were there on it, and it, it, ugh, it just in that one like split second
shot, I thought there's the money.
That like, this is not obviously a CG shot.
They have gone above and beyond to replicate the realities
of shooting things for real.
And yet there's no way those, those, uh, solar panels exist in
anything but a computer rendering.
How much of this is real?
I can't tell.
And that's how I knew we were in for another episode.
Just like the premiere of this series, it felt like the production values went back
up to that, uh, cinematic quality that we got in the series opening in episode one.
Rob: There was definitely some great landscape, uh, you know, space shots,
especially of our, um, our, uh, ship graveyard and our main focus, uh, the,
you know, the abandoned starship that our, our most of our adventure takes place on.
But just a bit of a side note, it is quite interesting, like those landmarks
that have become recognition points in science fiction futuristic representation.
So in America you've got two sides of the, of, of the country.
If you're in.
If you're in the East Coast, then you've definitely got, you know,
a crumbled, uh, Statue of Liberty.
Uh, in the old days, um, it was the Twin Towers would be showing off in future.
Kevin: I don't think we've ever seen the Statue of Liberty in Star Trek.
I, I wonder what it would look like.
Rob: It'd be great to see.
Yeah, because we only when we get to Earth really, um, when we do outside
shots of, it's always of San Francisco and that Golden Gate Bridge is there.
I was watching the um, YA films, uh, Maze Runner and they're set on the West
Coast and they've got a dystopian future, you know, post-apocalyptic war zone.
But Golden Gate Bridge remains are still there.
It's these iconic pla like if there's any, anything post-apocalyptic in Australia,
they've always got the crumbled, uh, Harbor Bridge or Opera House.
So yeah, a diversion there to see how that is an iconic side
of the other side of America.
If you wanna show you're on, you know, the, the East coast, they've gotta have
the Statue of Liberty in there somewhere.
Kevin: We get the, uh, the establishment of the mission to the USS Miyazaki's,
um, crumbling remains, and, uh, a bit of talk in, in the turbo lift about
the comic book that is at the heart of all of this, Tales from the Frontier.
Uh, I, they must be getting ready to make a, a buyable prop version of
that comic as, as a connoisseur of Star Trek comics myself, know, Rob,
I looked at that comic and I went, that looks just like Star Trek comics.
Rob: You should, you should be able to purchase that with
your warp drive pajamas and
Kevin: any minute
Rob: yeah, snuggle up for a wonderful read.
Um, yeah, I love that.
Developing of the lore.
It's a very, um, you know, uh, Mariner type, um, fans of the lore, of the
history of Star Trek within the universe.
And so that type of play plays out well here.
'Cause they're cadets as well.
there would be maybe a little bit geeking out over, uh, Star, Star Trek history.
Kevin: We had the red team go to the bridge of the Athena and take
their posts and, uh, it was good to see our cadets on the bridge,
uh, for, for an actual mission.
Rob: And, and our crew of the Athena, who we had time to be introduced to
on episode one, nowhere to be seen.
Kevin: Given the day off.
Yeah, I the, the, the, uh, the budget did not stretch that far.
Rob: Yes.
We only have a you know, a certain amount of expenses.
And that was on CGI and camera lenses.
Kevin: Yeah, you expected the moment things went sideways and they called
the lockdown, that those, you know, the proper officers should have
appeared from the turbo lifts relieved everyone, but they didn't, exactly.
Rob: Nope.
Nope.
We were, we were stuck with our cadets on, uh, yeah, being attacked on two fronts.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, something I marked was the moment that the shuttle carrying the, uh,
the blue team, the cadets over to the Miyazaki as it was like docking,
the fact of its arrival at the Miyazaki was announced not by a bridge
crew member, but by the computer.
Uh, the computer voice kind of reported it to the captain and
Ake said, Thank you, computer.
And, uh, that was the first of some prominent like computers talking
to our characters, which feels like a signifier of this 32nd century.
This along with, uh, programmable matter that we got to see the little
sheet of, bringing life support back.
These things, these bits of 32nd century technology were neat to see, and it's
what we've chosen as our topic for the second half of this episode, is like
when, when our characters find themselves in conversation with a computer.
Rob: So stay tuned for that.
Kevin: But, uh, yeah, things did go sideways pretty quickly.
We had the Furies with their, like phasing masks.
Um, they were described as, uh, I noted it, alien human hybrids, which felt to me
like a bit of a lazy, uh, turn of phrase, given that that could describe pretty
much half the characters on this show.
Rob: Yes, we, yeah.
And especially 'cause it was clear that they, yeah, like you said, phasing in
and out of time, that would've been a fascinating thing to lead with as opposed
to, oh, they're alien human hybrids.
Um, so like everybody.
Kevin: Yeah.
Over, over the course of the episode, I think they, I think they just didn't
wanna tip their hand too quickly.
They eventually kind of explained that they were, they were part bat creature.
They, I forget the name of it, but they referenced the bat creature and they said
that they are partly descended from that.
And it, this was given to justify their sensitivity to sound and ultimately,
uh, Tarima's, um, superpower scream that popped all their heads at
Rob: Of course.
And a little bit of, you know, uh, blood sucking, cannibalistic,
you know, vampiric type
Kevin: Yeah.
A little bit of vampire stuff on.
But yeah.
Um, the, the effects of their faces moving were, were suitably creepy.
Um, I was not sure what the practical effect of it was supposed to be,
but it made them scary along with the guttural voices, screeching
guttural voices that they put on.
Rob: Yeah, they're a little bit, they're a little bit Mouth of Sauron little bit,
um, uh, ring wraiths, Lord of the Rings.
Kevin: Absolutely.
Yes.
Rob: Got that element from them.
So yeah, they're a fascinating sort of like
prototype of a, of a species.
They're sort of like, instead of just being like in foundation, they were
generic baddie, but there was enough there that they can develop further to see what
will, you know, what could happen to them.
Kevin: We had, uh, Tomov, uh, introduced and sacrificed in in very short order.
Rob: Sort of like the, uh, a, a, um, lecturer from the war college
who's there to guide them through.
And he had a ni nice personality.
He was a more than just a red shirt, uh, but ultimately he
made the ultimate sacrifice.
Kevin: Yeah.
He had the, he had the, the bearing of like a marine, the who, who would
be mean, but actually he seemed nice.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
And, and he had the measure of the cadets he was working with.
It wasn't sort of like, you know, because Caleb does have a, a sense
of sort of like dominating and, and taking over, but he seemed to be put
in place quite well, which I, which was, you know, good structuring for
a character who's quite disposable.
And so when that loss hits, that's, that was a case of, oh, that's a shame.
That's good writing in Star Trek, if you, you know, to give a character
a moment, um, not heavy handedly, and so that when their sacrifice is
made, you, you feel that in a poignant sense of that, that's good work.
And it hasn't been often done that well in Star Trek.
So for it to be done here, that's something that
Starfleet should hold up high.
Kevin: Yeah.
A better than average red shirt death.
Go along with that for sure.
What did you make of the interior of the Miyazaki?
That corridor with the, with the neon rings sort of, and, and, and
between them, it just seemed like stretched, uh, pieces of plastic.
It, it felt to me like on the one hand, visually interesting and unusual.
On the other hand, it did not feel like a Starfleet ship to me, and I
was like, oh, there's probably some budget savings happening there.
They just stretched some rubber between rings and therefore saved themselves
having to build an actual corridor that distinct from the other Starfleet ships.
Rob: Yes.
While you spend your time looking at uh, uh, camera lens shots and
effects and where that comes from.
I'm there going, and I think it's through this podcast.
I'm there going, right, which reuse set is this?
Have they taken a section here?
Kevin: Yeah, I, I thought they could have very easily like redressed
in, uh, a, a Strange New Worlds Enterprise corridor like that.
I guess they have the problem of these two, what are meant to be very
distant timeframes from each other.
And then if you reuse some corridor from Strange New Worlds as if it is a 32nd
century ship, you're almost like putting the lie to the fact that these things
are, uh, centuries apart from each other.
Rob: Yes.
So yeah, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
But the choice was, um, did, didn't come across as well realized as that.
That's my diplomatic answer.
Def, definitely,
Kevin: Okay.
I mean, once the bat creatures arrived, it did make it feel claustrophobic creepy.
That really dark background.
But yeah it it, felt unusual.
Like, is this ship made of like floating rooms with, with like
rubber tunnels between them?
It, it kind of was a weird visual.
Rob: Hmm, I agree.
I agree.
Kevin: Uh, but yeah, then it was all kicking off and, um, the plan to have,
uh, the Venari Ral in the form of, uh, Nus Braka come to the rescue was hatched.
Rob: It's good to have, uh, Paul Giamatti back and I think a little bit earlier
than we were both kind of expecting.
Kevin: Yeah, I thought we wouldn't see him until the end of the season.
So a a a heaping spoonful of him here was great.
I they really emphasized the tic-tac toe in the side of his head.
Don't know, I either didn't catch it in the first episode or it was new here.
Rob: I did not catch it at all, so I was assuming it was something new.
'cause they were definitely going, look at this.
Do you see this?
Kevin: There was one shot of the side of his head that was so close that
I felt like I could see the netting that the, uh, the appliance, uh,
artist had used to put the hair on.
And I was like, Ooh, that just a little too
Rob: Little too close.
Little too close.
Um, but yes, we had an extension and an enhancement of our, uh, interplay
between Holly Hunter and Paul Giamatti.
Kevin: Holey moley.
Rob: Um, yeah, just what we got from episode one and what we're
getting now is just even more, uh, a play of two masters, um, working
within, uh, a television format.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, Giamatti has a way of chewing the scenery without it breaking
the, suspension of disbelief that it, it's big and small at the same
time, uh, in such an amazing way.
Rob: There's something about Paul Giamatti.
He's such a, uh, I don't wanna use the word working class,
but he is a jobbing actor.
Like had, like, for decades.
He has had bit parts in many different types of films.
So therefore he has had to be able to adjust to, you know, action roles, to
well action films, to broad comedies, to, um, murder mysteries, to all these type.
You know, he's, he's appeared in Downton Abbey.
He's, so that ability to shift range and shift genre is, um, is a skill
Kevin: There's zero ego about it.
You feel like he is, he is completely, um, willing to go with whatever the,
the particular show he is on is.
He's, he's here for whatever is kind of the sense.
Rob: And he's a true chameleon in the sense that he can adjust perfectly.
Like there, there are some actors who aren't working as consistently in
all these genres in supporting roles.
So when you see them in different genres as a, it's, it's hard to adjust.
But he has slipped in so beautifully into this sci-fi world, which we've
never really seen him in before.
We know he's a huge Star Trek fan and playing such a, you know, theatrical
villain at the same height of say, a Christopher Plummer or a Ricardo Montalban
type of theatricality, but still grounding it, um, is an impressive sight to see.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bringing that big a presence to the screen without breaking
everything around him yeah.
An impressive feat for sure.
And Holly Hunter, Ugh.
Uh, when, when Nus Braka turns his back to her and she allows
like the cracks to show.
Those mo, like he's been, he's been, uh, he's been monologuing about the death
of her son for what feels like five minutes, and then he finally turns his
back to her and you just see her like, clench and, and break just for a moment.
And, uh, I was like, wow, there it is.
That, that is the best acting I've ever seen in Star Trek.
Rob: Oh, and that's the thing.
It's that two different styles and two different, I mean, it's what
the characters require, but to have that largeness of, and largeness
in many ways is a, is an insult.
I really don't want to use that way, word.
Actually, for Giamatti.
The, the, the grandness of his performance is, is, is so pitch perfect, but you can't
have Holly Hunter hit that same level.
So to have her quiet, her stillness, her facial expressions, her eye
movement, that, that, that contradiction or, yeah, juxtaposition, if you
want to use favorite word, of minimal and grand is just a perfect
balance, perfectly played out here.
Kevin: Yeah.
Giamatti's, I see why you don't wanna use largeness, because I feel like
when you play something that big often it's no longer in your control.
And he is still in, in such control of, in instrument, even though
it's playing that loudly, it's
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: But yeah, Holly Hunter's, Holly Hunter's soft, uh,
counterpoint was incredible.
In, in a scene when she gets called away and she shares her insights
of, I knew if I let him talk long enough, he'd eventually slip up.
This is what I'm seeing.
And yet, as she's analyzing rationally, there is a tear hanging from her
bottom eyelid because of the emotional impact of what she's just been through.
It is incredible.
Rob: What she has to, what she has to endure to get the information.
That's it even more heartbreaking.
She goes through all that and she still fails.
Kevin: and yet hurt at the same time.
Rob: Exactly.
And to have that satisfying moment at the end where he finally lets down all his
guard and, you know, there's that relish of, you know, uh, mean-spirited diplomacy.
Um, but at the end he just strips it all back and just goes, I just hate you.
And don't really hear that type of stuff in Star Trek.
You hear, you know, many different levels of, you know, unless it's, you
know, you know, the powerful of Kirk revealing his racism and prejudice
towards the Klingons, Let them die.
That's a similar level of I just hate you and I will, you know, I
will do everything in my power to tear you apart and tear you down.
It's, yeah, it, it, it takes it to a different, uh, level
performance wise and, and story-wise, which is, we have now shifted.
I don't see we can go back to, it'll be as it used to be done in eighties, nineties
television when you had 25, 26 episodes.
I know we've talked about that before.
So that's your bingo ticked off, but with such a limited number
of episodes, 10, we've got, yes.
That I don't us, yeah.
I don't see us shifting back into a lighter, you know,
monster of the week type episode.
This, the, the tone has
Kevin: I feel like they might have just have room for one more light episode.
Feel like in the same way as Best of Both Worlds in TNG
had to be followed by Family.
It was the third part of that two-parter where normality was re-earned, the,
characters had a moment to heal.
I feel like we're gonna need at least an episode where these characters have
a moment to heal from what they've been
So that's, that's episode seven.
Then you got episode eight to do I think almost anything you want with, and then
nine and ten to finish off the season.
Rob: Yeah, because we still have a lot of scars, obviously, um, to, to heal.
We have characters in, you know, almost self-induced comas.
We've got, you know, holograms that have been, you know,
almost shattered beyond repair.
Kevin: Yeah.
Oh.
Hearing SAM call for Jay-den.
Help me Jay-den, at the end.
Oh, it's hit, it's hitting me now, uh, just talking about it.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
Kevin: Uh,
Rob: And Kyle being, uh, uh, injured.
I was there worried that like he's, there was gonna be some, maybe some
infection or something like that, but
Kevin: No, I think he's, I think, scarred emotionally from the fact that, uh, B'Avi
jumped in front of him and took the shot.
I he's gonna feel a bit of survivor's guilt from that.
Rob: And that, yeah, B'Avi, B'Avi's sacrifice was a, a wonderful, um, gut
Kevin: Never say out loud the needs of the many.
Rob: It's the Spock
Kevin: as you quote it, you're done for.
Rob: You done for, you're done for, and you love comics, so we've gotta
have, you know, that value there.
Wonderfully performed.
And we've seen him a little bit in, um, earlier episodes.
So to have that background character.
Yeah.
Again, even more of a, a elevated red shirt.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, he was, uh, yeah, he did a good job.
Um,
Red shirt in the sense that they gave us just enough reason to like him
before killing him in the same episode.
Uh, but yes, he, he will be remembered fondly, B'Avi.
Rob: And good Vulcan, good Vulcan acting, I believe.
Kevin: Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Vulcan comic nerd is a great twist that we got to see here.
Rob: And I think it does fit within the Vulcan culture to be a book nerd.
Yeah.
Kevin: But zooming out, like this, this episode did a remarkable job,
I think, of building up multiple layers of false confidence for us.
There's this particular scene where they, they go through not just the
plan, but the three plans they have to out, out, uh, play the Furies.
They, they're like, okay, we'll get the sonic weapon, and in case that doesn't
work, Tarima Sadal's telepathy will help the cadets get the singularity
drive online and, and disrupt the field so we can beam them away.
And on top of that, we've already got a lead on detecting their cloaked ship.
So Genesis, uh, on, on, on the bridge, we'll detect them.
And so we've got three aces up our sleeves.
How can we lose?
Is how we're meant to feel.
And then one by one, they fail.
Rob: This, this did, this episode did feel like the, The Dark Night, or
Skyfall in a sense of, um, the, not only were the bad guys a step ahead,
they were four or five steps ahead.
So, and makes it even more impressive or a little bit could be pushed for credulity.
Um, but that sense of we have three backup plans and the bad
guys have all of those covered.
Kevin: And all to get something, question mark, off of this space station, J-19
Alpha, where the highly classified kind of technology is researched.
Rob: I don't want to hear, uh, any, uh, section 31 type
of, uh, hidden fortress areas.
But it'll be interesting to, yeah, find out if we find out more about
what this space was and, um, what remnants of, uh, the history of
Star Trek is, uh, connected to it.
Kevin: Yeah, I'm almost hoping it's not connected to some history.
I'm hoping it's something brand new.
Uh, 'cause I think this series is working best when it is creating new.
I mean, we liked our homage to Deep Space Nine, but even then, even that was done
in a forward looking, I thought, way.
It was not so nostalgic that it was wallowing.
And so I hope that this has, this has to do with Nus Braka's final
message where he promises one more thing to, to Nala, I owe you this.
And, uh, we don't know what this is in.
Uh, presumably it is, uh, something to do with whatever has been
stolen from the space station.
Rob: And possibly Caleb's mum!
Kevin: Can't wait to see where it goes.
Rob: Yeah.
Four more episodes to go.
Um, I think this was a good shift in tone.
We still have space for the, um, you know, the ramifications of
what's happened and then possibly a, little lighter affair before we
bring it home with our, I presume our, uh, two episode season finale.
Kevin: Yeah.
Presumably maybe, maybe, maybe not.
We'll Um, what did you think of, uh, Tarima's superpower, uh, unleashed?
Rob: Look.
Yes.
The one I was, I was a little bit awkward with the extended,
uh, sauciness of the opening.
Um, I mean, I, it's weird.
I'm the one who wanted to bring up the sex episodes in, uh, Star Trek, but I, I
feel much more comfortable with some of the lines of, they feel awkward about it.
And now I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You're leaning into it now?
Okay.
Um, now I'm getting my p prune on.
Prune on?
My prude on, sorry.
Don't wanna get those words mixed up.
Kevin: Yeah, I, I, I think these characters are young enough, and we are
old enough, that I felt like I should not be watching what I'm watching.
This is not for
Rob: But also the way it was shot, the l the, the slow motion lingering thing
didn't even come across, it did, for me it didn't come across as anything
alluring or arousing or titillating.
It was quite labored.
Um, and like the reactions of both the actors who have been doing very, very
good, they're very good actors, but their looks looked a bit bored and tired.
And I'm there going, right, okay.
I want chemistry between these people.
But yes, old men looking at young people.
I did feel a bit, um, maybe I should be watching something else.
Kevin: When I rewatch this episode, I'll skip over the first five minutes.
Rob: Okay, we're at the flowers.
I can get that sense.
Um, yeah, there's been a, a nice balance with her superpowers in well of enough
information, but not too much, to go she has abilities that, uh, need to be
controlled so they can pretty much go, these are the powers that we need that
are convenient for the plot, so we can
Kevin: Yeah, a little worried that she's gonna be able to do anything and
everything that any given plot needs.
I kind of like the fact that they tied, they tied her scream at the end to the
bats, to her father's loss of hearing.
Uh, that it, it is at least specific and related enough that I feel like
she is not a generic superhero.
She has this powerful psychic scream that she can do, and
is not entirely in control of.
And, and that feels at least narrow enough that it's not gonna
be a, a plot device of the week.
Rob: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how I feel about that.
I'm a little bit torn about her being the cause of her father's deafness, and does
that take away from the representation of just having, you know, it does,
uh, having, having a character with a disability on screen doesn't need to
be connected to something traumatic
Kevin: Yeah, I see that for sure.
Rob: I, I'm not sure how
Kevin: a shame to lose.
Rob: Yeah.
A part of me was a bit, oh, okay.
That's a cute tie in.
But then there's a part of me going, do I, do we just, would I
Kevin: the, are the only deaf people in Star Trek, the ones that are
irreparably destroyed by this superpower?
Do we lose that representation in this future?
Yeah.
Rob: As opposed to just having, there, there are people who are,
you know, in this position, they could be born that way, you know?
Uh, anything like that.
I'm not sure.
I haven't decided in my mind where I sit with it.
It's just something where it, it came up.
Kevin: I, I heroic work done by the actor playing her brother Ocam Sadal, kind
of being the, I thought the, the little monologue he has of Oh, that, that record,
that file is inaccurate and out of date.
And, uh, this is, this is the deal.
And she actually kind of did it him a favor.
I was learning trumpet that week.
The, the, the bit of comedy in there as well.
I thought it was, it was pitch perfect.
It, it really worked in the moment to kind of sell this absurd sci-fi idea.
Rob: He is a great addition to the cast.
He has been able to do that balance of be, you know, the annoying one, the
Kevin: Yeah.
The other week he said, I'm a joiner.
It's my fatal flaw.
And I thought that is just a funny one line and, and it has nothing to
do with anything, but it delighted me.
Rob: And he did have some heavy lifting this week and it wasn't jarring.
So that's a credit to him to be able to still get a bit of a, uh, a joke in there,
but still true to character, but not take away from, uh, the drama of that scene.
So that, that was some, that was some nice play.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, anything else you wanna cover off in
Rob: No, I, I, the one thing I did want to, you know, we've celebrated
the, the grimness of the episode.
It was a failure, an abject failure on all accounts and the fact that
Kevin: It was a failure hidden inside, a bunch of presumed
successes and overconfidence.
Uh, so good.
Rob: Yeah, there was maybe, maybe a one little bit about Ake's disdain and
look down and how that has played to going, you think you're better than me?
You, and you haven't had to fight for anything.
You don't know what it really is like out there in this, that type of, um.
You know, that balance of, uh, philosophies on life and, you know,
who's the true villain type of element.
There were parts of that in there within, uh, all the gloriousness of,
uh, Hunter and Giamatti's scenes.
Kevin: I wanna believe that Nustopher was an ad-lib by Paul Giamatti, Nus is short
for Nustopher, um, ridiculously funny.
All right, so the, the thing that sparked for me this episode was the
efforts by the cadets on the bridge of the Miyazaki to kind of talk, talk
the ship's computer into understanding that its crew is dead and that it is in
a new crisis and it needs to respond, and their success in doing that.
It made me think, well, yeah, there, like as long as there has been Star
Trek, there have been computers that can talk back to our, ship's computers
that can talk back to our crews.
And over the decades they have become more and more sentient.
And there have been moments where that has been relevant to
the show or the plot at hand.
Um, pretty clear that the 32nd century features ships', computers
that are more sentient and in, in this case, have broken, uh, broken
personalities than ever before.
But, um, I wanted to look back at, at what other examples we have of ships
having personalities or the computer specifically having some kind of
personality or personal interaction with, with our, our characters.
Um, so I've got a pretty early one, uh, from TOS, Rob.
Rob: I've got one from after TOS.
It's an episode we've kind of talked about before.
So, um, you bring up yours and then we can sort of like touch on
mine and springboard into a deeper conversation in the next one.
Kevin: Cool.
Throughout TOS, the computer most of the time was just buttons and lights.
But in a, in a court proceeding like a court martial or when someone is being
given a deposition or something, often the computer voice in a very mechanical tone
would read out records and things like that, uh, for our characters to be given
a, a bit of a, a, a, uh, exposition dump.
But one episode came to mind where it changed a little bit, and this is season
one, episode 21, Tomorrow is Yesterday.
Is a great episode.
It's actually kind of, when I re-watched it, I realized it's kind
of a prototype for Star Trek IV, because in this episode our crew goes
back in time to the present day where the show was actually being made.
And, uh, they have a little adventure in present day.
And the entire challenge to our characters is how do we get ourselves
back home without accidentally changing the past and erasing our
future, which is very Star Trek IV.
Rob: Very George and Gracie!
Kevin: And it is comic in the same way that Star Trek IV is.
There's a lot of like how absurd our straight laced, uh, Starfleet characters
are when brought into an everyday context.
And Kirk is arrested on, uh, by security on a military base and they
have him sat in a chair and they say, is this a uniform you're wearing?
And Kirk goes This little old thing?
I just threw it on this morning.
It, it, it has got all of that going on in it way back here in
season one of the original series.
Um, so yeah, it's a great one, but mixed in with this early semi comic
episode, of and, and a time travel story, there is a tiny detail that has
nothing to do with anything, and it is the ship's computer on the Enterprise.
Um, early in this episode, the Enterprise, which appears in low earth orbit and
is spotted by a military jet, they, they accidentally crush the military
jet with their tractor beam and have to rescue the pilot by beaming him aboard.
And so he is the Gillian Taylor of this story.
This is Captain Christopher who, uh, walks around wide-eyed and, and, uh,
is stunned by Spock's pointy ears.
But once he finds his bearings, he joins Kirk and Spock in Kirk's
quarters where they talk about what's gonna happen to him.
Is he gonna stay aboard, or does he have to be returned home?
Now that he's aware of the future, is that gonna be a problem?
And while they're doing this, they're consulting the record tapes
and Kirk's computer speaks in a uncharacteristically warm tone.
It is flirting with Captain Kirk.
Uh, he, uh, uh, he is shocked by this, and, and Spock who is
there kind of rolls his eyes like, oh, we still haven't fixed this.
And it is revealed that the last place they put in for repairs was a planet,
quote, dominated by women, unquote, where they decided that the ship's
computer needed more personality, and to quote Spock, of course it should
have a female personality, unquote.
And so the the gag here is that the ship's computer has been feminized
too much and is now flirting with the captain and is very emotional.
Spock says, and it has an unfortunate tendency to giggle.
And it's, it's all very cringey and doesn't well.
But it is the first example I could find of the, uh, the ship's computer taking on
a personality as a, as a prominent point.
Kirk uh, does a log where he tries to get the computer to behave.
He says, uh, maintenance note, uh, please log my recommendation that
my computer's personality issue be resolved or it be scrapped.
And, Kirk goes compute.
And the computer goes computed as it is hurt.
So yeah, it is all very, uh, it is all very silly and does not,
uh, it is not something to be proud of by today's standards.
But it was prominent at the time.
This episode, one of the first, if not the first, written by DC Fontana,
who is still, um, who is still Gene Roddenberry's secretary at the time.
There's some memos I was able to find around this time where they're joking
about, ha how this feedback about the script should, should never fall into
the hands of the writer, the very talented writer who wrote it, they
recommended it be kept with Gene's secretary for safekeeping, they're talking
about, but not quite acknowledging in writing that that's the same person.
Uh, funny stuff.
Um, yeah, they, there was, uh, there were people who thought that that,
uh, that personality stuff from the computer didn't fit in this episode.
Bob Justman at the time wrote, I seriously doubt that this, this
computer voice routine has value for us in this type of story.
The story we're attempting to tell here should be completely
credible to our audience.
I think therefore, that this amusing side play tends to distract from
the believability of our tale.
But, uh, Gene L. Coon, uh, who is the head writer of the show at the time, disagreed.
And it went ahead.
Rob: went ahead.
There we go.
Thank you for those, uh, little, uh, drops of, uh, historical information.
Kevin: Sure.
Yeah.
Uh, good one to watch, I think, yeah.
Star Trek IV is a very kind of welcoming first Star Trek to show people, and in
the same way, Tomorrow is Yesterady, I think, works as a, as a, a rarely
sighted entry point for the series.
Rob: Wonderful, wonderful stuff.
Well, I'm gonna jump ahead to an episode we've talked about a couple
of times on this show, so we don't need to divulge into it too much, but
I'm definitely looking at, uh, star Trek, the animated series, season two,
episode three, The Practical Joker,
Kevin: Oh, of course.
Rob: where of course, uh, going through an ion storm of some kind of, uh, uh,
trying to avoid Romulan ships, the, uh, the, the Enterprise itself and the
ergo the computer connected with it, uh, affected in some way and start to
run practical jokes against the ship and they become more and more serious.
Um, how they can get, you know, um, boot polish on a, a magnifying glass
for a Spock to come up with the rims around his eyes is remarkable.
Uh, we also have the introduction of the Rec Room, or which it will
become the holodeck and, uh, our three of our crew are trapped in there.
Um, but yes, there is communications.
We have loud cackles and laughter from the computer and, uh, discussions of what
they are doing back and forth, directly communicating with, uh, the computer.
Uh, uh, Spock and, uh, Kirk are trying to, um, uh, talk it down from its behavior.
Kevin: Yeah, it's a good one.
Uh, I, it's, uh, it's definitely leaning into the silliness,
like this is a comic beat again.
It's, it's interesting to me that both of these early examples of what
if the computer gained a personality was a source of comedy for show here?
Yeah.
Rob: And how they, the justification behind getting to that point.
So whether it be specific programming from a women's dominated colony, or in
this, going through a storm, so there's an effecting of the circuitry there.
Whereas of course nowadays it's all artificial, artificial intelligence.
We've got the word for it.
We've got, you know, the synthetic brain that is created.
So the terminology has changed as science has evolved, is a great way to watch.
Great way to watch.
That's why Dr. Who and Star Trek are great examples of science fiction because
it, because they've both been going 60 years, um, we can see how they've evolved
storytelling and, and introducing of characters or plot points or whatever,
through the development of science.
We can see that over a 60 year period, which is fascinating.
Kevin: Yeah.
And it continues to evolve into The Next Generation, which is the
other episode I wanted to bring
Rob: Nice lead
Kevin: way at the end of The Next Generation.
Uh, this is TNG, season seven, episode 23.
three episodes before All Good Things… And it was one of the last things they did
as a story of the week sort of episode.
Um, the behind the scenes on this episode, which is entitled Emergence,
uh, talks about how Brannon Braga was like, we wanted to do one last
holodeck episode, and we weren't really sure, we thought maybe a, a big Dixon
Hill finish or something like that.
But what they ended up creating here was what if the holodeck was the
imagination of the USS Enterprise as it starts to gain sentience.
Rob: Ah.
Kevin: So very much like the ion storm that you just, uh, talked
about in The Animated Series.
This episode, uh, before the start, uh, sees the Enterprise weathering
a quote, magnascopic storm in some random sector of space.
And, at the start of this episode, our crew starts to notice malfunctions
on board the ship, uh, unexplained, uh, things done by the computer.
Uh, this starts with a scene in the holodeck where Data is practicing a
scene from The Tempest, uh, as Prospero.
uh, Picard is giving him notes on how the lighting is too dim.
And then they almost get run over by the Orient Express, a train that
suddenly appears, uh, unexpectedly in, in this Shakespearean setting.
And that's just the first mystery.
The ship jumps to warp unexpectedly later on, and then they look back at the
sensor logs, they realize that that jump to warp saved the ship from a disaster
that would've otherwise occurred.
And then, uh, pretty quickly they LaForge discovers that the ship is gradually
growing these little multicolored nodes.
They, they look like tangles of neon lighting, if, if, uh, you can imagine
that, and they're hidden behind the walls.
They're, they're connecting parts of the computer to other parts of the
computer that don't normally connect to each other, and they gradually put the
pieces together and go, you know what?
I think the ship is, is building its own nervous system and
gaining sentience in the process.
There is a, uh, an observation lounge meeting where they talk about emergent
properties, that, that consciousness in humans and, and humanoids is not
directly explainable as a combination of their physical attributes.
It is a property that emerges from the complexity of that system.
And our characters agree that, well, you know, when you look at a certain
way, the Enterprise has a brain and it has sensors and it has the ability
to reproduce with its replicators.
And so maybe consciousness, uh, with the help of this, uh, space storm
might just be an emergent property of the complexity of the ship.
Um, they, they end up going to the holodeck to try to
understand what the ship wants.
And the holodeck has got like six programs running simultaneously.
So there's like a, a guy, a guy in a suit of armor, uh, using
scissors to cut paper dolls.
There's a gangster who, uh, wants, uh, a gold brick for some reason.
There's, there's all these different characters with inscrutable goals and
there, and many of them are working on putting puzzle pieces together on a table
of this, this puzzle that has a picture of one of the nodes that I mentioned earlier.
And, um.
This is where this, this episode for me kind of falters is when we get to the
stage of, we kind of understand what might be going on, what should we do about it?
The, the remaining 30 minutes of this episode is really just our characters
walking around going, what are we doing?
What do you want?
What did, what is this?
Can we understand it?
No, we can't.
Uh, and our characters are very passive.
The outcome of this episode is really just that they, they're carried along
a ride until the Enterprise gets a particular particle from a nebula that
it needs to complete building its, its own little life form that then flies off.
The end.
All up, our, our, our characters make one choice of consequence.
It's what they discover when they figure out the Enterprise needs this
particular particle, they realize that they are going to run out of life
support before the Enterprise gets to it.
So LaForge has to find a way to get that particle sooner, and then they
have to convince the characters on the holodeck to let them try.
But that, that's about it.
It, there's like just this one moment of, maybe if we go to that nebula,
please let us go to that nebula.
Okay.
If you're, if you promise.
And, and like that is the only active, uh, act that our
characters have in this episode.
So it, it really kind of is a story about, uh, a sci-fi thing happening
and our characters being witness to it.
Rob: And that's right near the end of the whole
Kevin: Yeah, right near the end.
So for those who say that, uh, that TNG went out on a high and that season
eight would've been glorious, there are episodes like this one where you can see
them kind of running out of, uh, steam.
Rob: Well, I've, um, jumped ahead even further and I've gone somewhere
where I have never gone before.
I have gone to Discovery season four.
Kevin: Ooooh!
Yeah.
Rob: We're gonna have a look at Zora.
Kevin: Yeah.
Introduced in Calypso, which was the Star Trek short that you, uh, you,
you caught up on a little while back.
Rob: Which was good.
And I've re-watched that again in the lead up to this.
And that pretty much gave an endpoint for where Discovery had to be, because it's
in caught in a, a intergalactic storm, abandoned in the middle of nowhere.
Um, there's a, a shipwreck.
Um, uh, uh, crew member, only survivor is brought on board and he
begins this relationship with, uh, Zora and getting his memory back and
the, he's got a family left behind.
Kevin: Yeah.
Really interesting, this stuff.
Like Zora introduced here as kind of a promise about the future, and
then they had to work their way into justifying it retroactively.
At this point in Discovery, they had still not lept into the future.
So the idea that that Discovery would be in this far off future
with a sentient computer named Zora onboard was a big leap.
Uh, and I, they must have known they were jumping to the future at the end of season
two by this point, to at least have that, that sentient computer thing happening.
Rob: Yes.
And so we had that point.
So the final episode is Burnham coming back, um, a very old, distinguished
admiral and taking the ship into, uh, the, the nebula or the storm
Kevin: Yeah.
Quite ham-fistedly mentioning.
Yeah.
That Zora has to go and meet someone named Book, like the fact that
they apparently know what outcome they're putting, this the, the
Rob: Was a Book or craft?
Craft.
Kevin: right, is Craft.
Rob: Craft.
Yes.
It, it, it, it did seem it was a very odd choice to do.
But, um, we do know that Zora comes about through Control, which is the main
baddie in episode in season two, and that
Kevin: right, she's part of the sphere data stuff.
Rob: sphere data sort of like kicks her off into this self-awareness
and they develop it through season three, from what I can remember.
And then season four, they really explore it in quite a number of episodes.
And it all comes to a head in this particular episode, which is season
four, episode seven, …But to Connect.
Season four's main focus is Book's Planet.
His home planet is, uh, is being destroyed.
And for the course of this episode, they've been try, uh, season, they have
been trying to find the, uh, people responsible for this, um, seemingly,
you know, natural occurrence, but it has seemed to be controlled.
There's two stories running here.
It's all springboards from the point that Zora's finding out all the
information, uh, and has determined where the location is that this all started.
So these beings that have caused the destruction of this planet and
is a potential existential threat to the reformed Federation, um,
they need that information ASAP.
Burnham is very worried of Book's state of mind.
Book desperately wants to find out this information.
Zora finds the location, but her decision is to not give that information because
it is statistically likely that Discovery would be under threat and she could
not threaten the lives, uh, put her the lives of her, uh, crew in danger.
So therefore, then the story splits.
Burnham and Book go to the Federation to plead their case of how is the best way to
deal with this information when it comes.
Um, Book obviously is has a lot of machinations with other people, uh,
who would like to go attack first, whereas Burnham is from the let's do a
diplomatic, peaceful exploration first.
We encountered the representative from Earth.
When Earth is the ex that we come in and that we wanna
try and get back to the fold.
Um, the Cardassian, slash Cardassian human, uh, uh, uh, president goes,
oh, I desperately want Earth to come back into the federation.
It's very much a case of, oh, I want to get back with that person.
Kevin: That president, uh, as far as we know, is still president of the Federation
here in, uh, in Starfleet Academy.
And
Rob: We, we, we believe so.
Kevin: When the Admiral says, I'll have to talk, speak to the president,
that's who he's talking about.
Rob: Exactly.
And so, um, we then cut between Discovery where we have, uh, David Cronenberg show
up in all his, uh, uh, deadpan glory.
And they are discussing their, um, the ex, you know, the potential
sentient ness or, or the existence of, uh, Zora, and what does this imply?
And every character has their own, um, opinions.
This is a main focus of, uh, we see very little Tilly in this one.
Not much Saru, a little bit of Saru.
This is mostly the family unit of Stamets, uh, the doctor and our two young,
uh, human Trill, uh, lovers that have
Kevin: Oh yes.
Rob: Um, and this is that episode where they split and one of
them has to go back to Trill.
Um, the other one stays, uh, with um, daddy and daddy.
Um, but Stamets has his own prejudice towards, uh, Zora.
But through the trial that is being run, we find out the rules that
Zora has been going by, um, doesn't comply with, um, the Federation.
However, if they go by the law of, well, do you wanna become a member of the crew?
He goes, yes, very much so.
Well, if you are assigned a member, you must follow the chain of command and
therefore you can't just disobey an order.
And Zora goes, well, I will do that.
And the whole point of she feels a part of the crew and she doesn't want the crew to
die, is something that, uh, and everyone believes that David Cronenberg character's
gonna sort of like be the one, the bad guy going, oh, he is gonna destroy, delete.
And he's there going, no, this is a, you know, a life form and make them a part
of the crew and they'll be an asset, and,
Kevin: It is natural culmination of the, the trend we're talking about,
that the, the, ultimately a computer that has gained sentience must choose
to become a member of the crew.
Rob: And there's stuff in there about nature, nurture.
There's stuff about if you have the potential to destroy, but don't do it.
Uh, so like Saru, they're going, I have the, I have the capacity
to, to harm, but I don't do it.
I make that choice.
And just because Zora is, you know, has the potential to be dangerous and blow up
the ship or whatever with their decision, doesn't mean that they automatically will.
So Stamets has a turning point when he realizes Zora's choices
of decisions come from a place of compassion and, and product, you
know, protect, protectiveness.
Um, it's, it's interesting because this is an age old science fiction trope.
What is human?
What is humanity?
It's perfectly represented in Spock.
It's perfectly represented in Data.
It's perfectly represented in the Doctor.
We have repeated this over and over again, even in odo to some small extent,
but from a mechanical, electronic, you know, robot type of setup.
But it's interesting here because with what we have done before in the past, we
have a face to put and a, and a figure.
But Zora is just this disembodied voice.
And it's a, it's an interesting balance to, do you still have that connection
to something, or is it, does it seem, for me, it felt a little bit forced.
I'm there going, I don't have anything, and yeah, I don't have anything to grab
onto, uh, this, this disparate voice.
It's something that happened with, with, I'm bringing up again, Red Dwarf.
Originally Red Dwarf was just meant to have Holly, the ship's
computer just be a, a, a, a voice.
But, uh, the voice actor, uh, Norman Lovett, bless him, he said,
well, I wanna appear on screen.
So he was trying to do the whole convincing, no, you need
to have a face for the voice so you could see interactions.
So his selfishness to get his face on screen actually worked in its
favor, because that made it more of a connection between the crew and,
um, and the voice of the computer.
So it's hard for me to really connect to Zora here, even though we get a
holo grammatic representation of her in a wedding dress in, uh, a Calypso.
Um, but yes, that was not only interacting, but arguing and having a
philosophical discord with a, a computer about whether they exist or not.
Kevin: Lovely find.
Great to be reminded of that one.
This whole episode is, is smacked bang in the middle of this issue of
is the, is the computer sentient?
And if so, what does that mean?
Rob: And it, this does come to a, it's sort of like the, the focal point.
So we've had Zora explored in season three and elements of this season,
but this is a point where we go, okay, let's, let's discuss it, not just have it
there in the background or a part of it.
Let's define what Zora is.
Um, and there were parts of it that I quite had liked.
You know, there's always a drag factor for me when it comes to Discovery,
Kevin: High praise for you from a Discovery
Rob: I know
Kevin: gonna ask, jumping back like just a couple of years now, uh, in
Star Trek time, uh, well, in, in real time to, to Discovery season four.
I'm curious, what was the contrast you felt there?
Um, how, how different is it from something like Starfleet Academy?
Rob: Yeah, I think this episode in particular felt a lot more like
Star Trek because it had the two separate A and B plots and, and so
Burnham's role was not as prominent.
The stuff with her in Book was played out well because there was a great
moment where, um, Book spoke for the more aggressive strategy and the
President said, we need someone to, to argue the other side, and Burnham
was the only one who could do it.
So for me, that was a great play of.
Burnham as a character.
And it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't indulging that, which
always kind of annoyed me.
This was a good, balanced episode.
There was so much stuff for Stamets to do, so much stuff for, um, uh,
uh, his kids and their relationship and their connection with Zora.
and also the larger play of the Federation in the far future.
So for me it was, again, those elements of Discovery, which we
still bleeding into modern Star Trek of Star Trekky concepts, but more
emotional character driven teen drama.
We had those there.
Kevin: I feel by this point they had corrected for the, it's all about,
um, Michael Burnham stuff, but now they were off in the far future.
And, and for me, this is the era where Discovery was failing by having, um,
abstract, grand, galaxy ending threats as the, the plot every single episode.
And it made it really hard in a 10 episode series to invest in the characters
because we were never getting any emotionally impactful, uh, character
building, uh, stories with emotional stakes for these individuals, as opposed
to the galaxy they were a part of.
Um, and, uh, I, I don't know if any of that was, was in evidence in this episode
for you or if it, this was an exception.
Rob: It was definitely a case of, um.
We saw more of the rest of the crew, but it still a specific type of crew.
Like there were members of the Discovery crew who were there from episode
one, and we didn't see them at all.
But, um, our young human, uh, symbiont host and, uh, and their Trill, you
know, partner were brought in only last season, I believe in season three.
So they get a lot of screen time.
And I'm there
Kevin: It was really bizarre that we don't know enough about our characters.
Let's add more characters, solution in Discovery.
Rob: And they're playing it like a, oh, we've known these characters for so long,
but at the end of the episode, one of them goes back to Trill and I'm there going,
well, we're not building up anything here.
There's no consistency.
Um, I felt very much like uh, Book's cat who doesn't like, it de definitely
doesn't like Burnham and so it's gone from, you know, out and out hissing
to just uh, you know, silent disdain.
So there was a lot in there I'd liked.
But yeah, the whole structure of Discovery is, you know, 'cause I'd only gone to
episode one of season four and I watched that and I went, I can't do this.
Um, so to come into, you know, six episodes later, um, there
was some good stuff in there.
There was some good stuff in there.
I have like the odd occasional Discovery episode.
We did all of season five together
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.
Rob: and I didn't complain all the time.
Kevin: Thank you for your service, Rob.
Uh, I it be odd watching one of these episodes out of context because
Rob: It was a lot of me trying to catch up, um, fill the gaps
and, um, sort of like finish off sentences because they were missing.
Um, they go, okay, so this means this here, something's happened here.
Um, but I saw the start of like Saru with his, uh, soon
to be, uh, uh, uh, later wife.
So there are elements, elements there I'm seeing and go, all right, so the
'cause by the end of this season, Earth joined the federation again.
And so there's parts of going, all right, I can see how it all goes.
It doesn't inspire me to go and watch the rest of it, but I can see it.
Kevin: Cool.
Awesome, well, um, onto the next one.
I, I, I don't know, uh, I hope, I guess.
What I'm hoping for next week is a Family type episode.
A let's come back and take stock and heal from this, this thing
that has happened to us all.
Rob: We did have our team separated.
We had the bridge crew, we had the, uh, away team.
So have them reconnect,
Kevin: Yeah.
Reconnect and compare notes.
Rob: Uh, compare notes and heal wounds and see if they can come
out stronger and, uh, and, and, uh, and more fierce than ever before.