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Kevin: Welcome back to Subspace Radio.

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It's me, Kevin,

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Rob: and me, Rob,

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Kevin: and we have a heck of a
Star Trek to talk about today, Rob.

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Rob: Wow.

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What a, uh, turn from the most, you
know, the most recent affairs of Star

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Trek, um, Academy have been quite light
in, its, in, its, uh, in its dealing of

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Kevin: Lulled us into a false
sense of hijinks and, uh, man.

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Yes, a big tone shift this episode.

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Rob: Massive tone shift.

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Uh, did you think they, uh, pulled it off?

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Kevin: Yeah, I did, I did, Rob.

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That was, ah, that was delectable.

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I felt like I had nothing to say.

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After so, so many of these episodes.

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I was like, that's good,
and I can understand why.

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I just felt like the good was so
overwhelming this episode that it was

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kind of a conversation stopper for me.

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I, I needed some time to
process after watching it.

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How about you, Rob?

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Rob: Yes, very much.

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Uh, um, it, everything just kept on going.

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And there was a point where
I'm going, well, this is the

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point where the good guys win.

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This will be the point where they turn it
around, they're being clever and smart.

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And, um, then it was the revelation of
going, oh no, they're leaning into this.

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Oh no, they are doing this.

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Oh, this is a complete and
abject failure on the part of

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all our, our characters involved.

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And we can be grateful that we didn't lose
more lives of people on screen as opposed

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to the ones that were lost off screen.

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Um, yeah, it was a. It was
a bitter pill to swallow.

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But that's the, that's type of the
balance of what we like about Star Trek

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is being able to play one or the other.

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Kevin: Yeah, the wins don't
matter if there's no losses.

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Rob: Exactly.

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Exactly.

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We need, you know, the light
shines brighter, um, you

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know, within the darkness.

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Um, but yes, especially being a fan of
Deep Space Nine, which, uh, is known for,

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its, uh, focus on the dark and the tone
shift, um, I'm there, I was ready for it.

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And I think it adapted well within
what we've been getting with our,

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you know, our, our young adult type
of light high school drama affair.

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This definitely leaned into
these kids are not ready.

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And in many ways, you know, Ake and
our grownups have underestimated,

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Kevin: Caught flatfooted.

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Rob: Yeah, not really underestimated,
but just been, you know, outplayed.

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Kevin: Uh, the show kicked off with
a bit of canoodling with Caleb and,

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uh, Tarima in the, uh, field of
yellow flowers and also, um, on a

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bench by the Golden Gate Bridge.

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I, I'm a bit of a camera nerd, and those
shots of them sitting on the bench with,

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with the bridge in the background, the
bridge was large, and that tells me that

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they were shot from quite a distance with
a real, super powerful telephoto lens.

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And so when I saw that shot, I was
like, wow, that's an amazing lens.

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And, uh, I'm, I'm sure that's
not what we were meant to be

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thinking in that moment, but,

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Rob: The cinematographer
will be very happy with you.

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Kevin: The bridge was there, and I don't
even know if that's the real bridge

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because it had the solar panels that we've
come to know from this far off Star Trek

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future that that bridge is now because
there's no cars to drive across that

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they've covered it with solar panels.

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And that's been true since, uh,
the era of Star Trek: Picard.

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Um, and so seeing them here,
the cinematography looked so

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analog in a satisfying way.

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It made it look like a real shot
shot through real glass, with real

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heat haze warping the bridge in the
background, and yet the solar panels

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were there on it, and it, it, ugh,
it just in that one like split second

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shot, I thought there's the money.

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That like, this is not
obviously a CG shot.

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They have gone above and beyond
to replicate the realities

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of shooting things for real.

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And yet there's no way those,
those, uh, solar panels exist in

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anything but a computer rendering.

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How much of this is real?

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I can't tell.

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And that's how I knew we
were in for another episode.

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Just like the premiere of this series, it
felt like the production values went back

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up to that, uh, cinematic quality that we
got in the series opening in episode one.

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Rob: There was definitely some great
landscape, uh, you know, space shots,

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especially of our, um, our, uh, ship
graveyard and our main focus, uh, the,

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you know, the abandoned starship that our,
our most of our adventure takes place on.

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But just a bit of a side note, it is
quite interesting, like those landmarks

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that have become recognition points in
science fiction futuristic representation.

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So in America you've got two
sides of the, of, of the country.

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If you're in.

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If you're in the East Coast, then
you've definitely got, you know,

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a crumbled, uh, Statue of Liberty.

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Uh, in the old days, um, it was the Twin
Towers would be showing off in future.

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Kevin: I don't think we've ever seen
the Statue of Liberty in Star Trek.

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I, I wonder what it would look like.

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Rob: It'd be great to see.

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Yeah, because we only when we get to
Earth really, um, when we do outside

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shots of, it's always of San Francisco
and that Golden Gate Bridge is there.

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I was watching the um, YA films, uh,
Maze Runner and they're set on the West

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Coast and they've got a dystopian future,
you know, post-apocalyptic war zone.

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But Golden Gate Bridge
remains are still there.

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It's these iconic pla like if there's any,
anything post-apocalyptic in Australia,

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they've always got the crumbled,
uh, Harbor Bridge or Opera House.

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So yeah, a diversion there to
see how that is an iconic side

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of the other side of America.

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If you wanna show you're on, you know,
the, the East coast, they've gotta have

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the Statue of Liberty in there somewhere.

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Kevin: We get the, uh, the establishment
of the mission to the USS Miyazaki's,

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um, crumbling remains, and, uh, a bit
of talk in, in the turbo lift about

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the comic book that is at the heart of
all of this, Tales from the Frontier.

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Uh, I, they must be getting ready
to make a, a buyable prop version of

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that comic as, as a connoisseur of
Star Trek comics myself, know, Rob,

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I looked at that comic and I went,
that looks just like Star Trek comics.

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Rob: You should, you should
be able to purchase that with

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your warp drive pajamas and

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Kevin: any minute

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Rob: yeah, snuggle up
for a wonderful read.

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Um, yeah, I love that.

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Developing of the lore.

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It's a very, um, you know, uh, Mariner
type, um, fans of the lore, of the

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history of Star Trek within the universe.

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And so that type of play
plays out well here.

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'Cause they're cadets as well.

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there would be maybe a little bit geeking
out over, uh, Star, Star Trek history.

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Kevin: We had the red team go to
the bridge of the Athena and take

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their posts and, uh, it was good
to see our cadets on the bridge,

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uh, for, for an actual mission.

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Rob: And, and our crew of the Athena,
who we had time to be introduced to

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on episode one, nowhere to be seen.

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Kevin: Given the day off.

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Yeah, I the, the, the, uh, the
budget did not stretch that far.

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Rob: Yes.

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We only have a you know, a
certain amount of expenses.

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And that was on CGI and camera lenses.

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Kevin: Yeah, you expected the moment
things went sideways and they called

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the lockdown, that those, you know,
the proper officers should have

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appeared from the turbo lifts relieved
everyone, but they didn't, exactly.

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Rob: Nope.

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Nope.

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We were, we were stuck with our cadets on,
uh, yeah, being attacked on two fronts.

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Kevin: Yeah.

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Uh, something I marked was the moment
that the shuttle carrying the, uh,

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the blue team, the cadets over to
the Miyazaki as it was like docking,

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the fact of its arrival at the
Miyazaki was announced not by a bridge

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crew member, but by the computer.

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Uh, the computer voice kind of
reported it to the captain and

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Ake said, Thank you, computer.

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And, uh, that was the first of some
prominent like computers talking

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to our characters, which feels like
a signifier of this 32nd century.

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This along with, uh, programmable
matter that we got to see the little

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sheet of, bringing life support back.

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These things, these bits of 32nd century
technology were neat to see, and it's

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what we've chosen as our topic for the
second half of this episode, is like

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when, when our characters find themselves
in conversation with a computer.

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Rob: So stay tuned for that.

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Kevin: But, uh, yeah, things
did go sideways pretty quickly.

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We had the Furies with
their, like phasing masks.

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Um, they were described as, uh, I noted
it, alien human hybrids, which felt to me

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like a bit of a lazy, uh, turn of phrase,
given that that could describe pretty

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much half the characters on this show.

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Rob: Yes, we, yeah.

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And especially 'cause it was clear that
they, yeah, like you said, phasing in

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and out of time, that would've been a
fascinating thing to lead with as opposed

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to, oh, they're alien human hybrids.

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Um, so like everybody.

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Kevin: Yeah.

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Over, over the course of the episode,
I think they, I think they just didn't

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wanna tip their hand too quickly.

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They eventually kind of explained that
they were, they were part bat creature.

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They, I forget the name of it, but they
referenced the bat creature and they said

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that they are partly descended from that.

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And it, this was given to justify their
sensitivity to sound and ultimately,

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uh, Tarima's, um, superpower scream
that popped all their heads at

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Rob: Of course.

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And a little bit of, you know,
uh, blood sucking, cannibalistic,

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you know, vampiric type

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Kevin: Yeah.

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A little bit of vampire stuff on.

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But yeah.

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Um, the, the effects of their faces
moving were, were suitably creepy.

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Um, I was not sure what the practical
effect of it was supposed to be,

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but it made them scary along with
the guttural voices, screeching

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guttural voices that they put on.

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Rob: Yeah, they're a little bit, they're
a little bit Mouth of Sauron little bit,

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um, uh, ring wraiths, Lord of the Rings.

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Kevin: Absolutely.

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Yes.

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Rob: Got that element from them.

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So yeah, they're a
fascinating sort of like

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prototype of a, of a species.

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They're sort of like, instead of just
being like in foundation, they were

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generic baddie, but there was enough there
that they can develop further to see what

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will, you know, what could happen to them.

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Kevin: We had, uh, Tomov, uh, introduced
and sacrificed in in very short order.

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Rob: Sort of like the, uh, a, a,
um, lecturer from the war college

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who's there to guide them through.

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And he had a ni nice personality.

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He was a more than just a red
shirt, uh, but ultimately he

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made the ultimate sacrifice.

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Kevin: Yeah.

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He had the, he had the, the bearing
of like a marine, the who, who would

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be mean, but actually he seemed nice.

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Rob: Yes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yes.

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And, and he had the measure of
the cadets he was working with.

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It wasn't sort of like, you know,
because Caleb does have a, a sense

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of sort of like dominating and, and
taking over, but he seemed to be put

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in place quite well, which I, which
was, you know, good structuring for

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a character who's quite disposable.

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And so when that loss hits, that's,
that was a case of, oh, that's a shame.

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That's good writing in Star Trek, if
you, you know, to give a character

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a moment, um, not heavy handedly,
and so that when their sacrifice is

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made, you, you feel that in a poignant
sense of that, that's good work.

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And it hasn't been often
done that well in Star Trek.

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So for it to be done here,
that's something that

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Starfleet should hold up high.

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Kevin: Yeah.

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A better than average red shirt death.

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Go along with that for sure.

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What did you make of the
interior of the Miyazaki?

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That corridor with the, with the
neon rings sort of, and, and, and

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between them, it just seemed like
stretched, uh, pieces of plastic.

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It, it felt to me like on the one
hand, visually interesting and unusual.

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On the other hand, it did not feel
like a Starfleet ship to me, and I

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was like, oh, there's probably some
budget savings happening there.

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They just stretched some rubber between
rings and therefore saved themselves

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having to build an actual corridor that
distinct from the other Starfleet ships.

224
00:12:14,180 --> 00:12:14,450
Rob: Yes.

225
00:12:14,450 --> 00:12:17,810
While you spend your time looking
at uh, uh, camera lens shots and

226
00:12:17,810 --> 00:12:19,550
effects and where that comes from.

227
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,490
I'm there going, and I think
it's through this podcast.

228
00:12:22,580 --> 00:12:25,700
I'm there going, right,
which reuse set is this?

229
00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:27,710
Have they taken a section here?

230
00:12:28,215 --> 00:12:31,965
Kevin: Yeah, I, I thought they could
have very easily like redressed

231
00:12:31,965 --> 00:12:36,460
in, uh, a, a Strange New Worlds
Enterprise corridor like that.

232
00:12:36,915 --> 00:12:41,475
I guess they have the problem of
these two, what are meant to be very

233
00:12:41,475 --> 00:12:43,545
distant timeframes from each other.

234
00:12:43,545 --> 00:12:49,395
And then if you reuse some corridor from
Strange New Worlds as if it is a 32nd

235
00:12:49,395 --> 00:12:53,385
century ship, you're almost like putting
the lie to the fact that these things

236
00:12:53,385 --> 00:12:56,085
are, uh, centuries apart from each other.

237
00:12:56,165 --> 00:12:56,795
Rob: Yes.

238
00:12:56,825 --> 00:12:59,555
So yeah, you're damned if
you do, damned if you don't.

239
00:12:59,555 --> 00:13:04,805
But the choice was, um, did, didn't
come across as well realized as that.

240
00:13:04,805 --> 00:13:06,125
That's my diplomatic answer.

241
00:13:06,185 --> 00:13:07,115
Def, definitely,

242
00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:07,560
Kevin: Okay.

243
00:13:07,723 --> 00:13:13,093
I mean, once the bat creatures arrived,
it did make it feel claustrophobic creepy.

244
00:13:13,093 --> 00:13:14,683
That really dark background.

245
00:13:14,683 --> 00:13:16,813
But yeah it it, felt unusual.

246
00:13:16,813 --> 00:13:21,553
Like, is this ship made of like
floating rooms with, with like

247
00:13:21,583 --> 00:13:23,113
rubber tunnels between them?

248
00:13:23,113 --> 00:13:24,973
It, it kind of was a weird visual.

249
00:13:25,218 --> 00:13:26,238
Rob: Hmm, I agree.

250
00:13:26,388 --> 00:13:26,958
I agree.

251
00:13:28,753 --> 00:13:35,563
Kevin: Uh, but yeah, then it was all
kicking off and, um, the plan to have,

252
00:13:35,713 --> 00:13:43,378
uh, the Venari Ral in the form of, uh,
Nus Braka come to the rescue was hatched.

253
00:13:44,133 --> 00:13:48,963
Rob: It's good to have, uh, Paul Giamatti
back and I think a little bit earlier

254
00:13:48,963 --> 00:13:50,703
than we were both kind of expecting.

255
00:13:50,833 --> 00:13:53,233
Kevin: Yeah, I thought we wouldn't
see him until the end of the season.

256
00:13:53,233 --> 00:13:57,793
So a a a heaping spoonful
of him here was great.

257
00:13:58,213 --> 00:14:03,013
I they really emphasized the
tic-tac toe in the side of his head.

258
00:14:03,703 --> 00:14:09,013
Don't know, I either didn't catch it in
the first episode or it was new here.

259
00:14:09,123 --> 00:14:12,003
Rob: I did not catch it at all, so
I was assuming it was something new.

260
00:14:12,033 --> 00:14:14,223
'cause they were definitely
going, look at this.

261
00:14:14,493 --> 00:14:15,483
Do you see this?

262
00:14:16,513 --> 00:14:19,963
Kevin: There was one shot of the side
of his head that was so close that

263
00:14:19,963 --> 00:14:26,323
I felt like I could see the netting
that the, uh, the appliance, uh,

264
00:14:26,353 --> 00:14:29,083
artist had used to put the hair on.

265
00:14:29,143 --> 00:14:30,853
And I was like, Ooh,
that just a little too

266
00:14:31,113 --> 00:14:31,923
Rob: Little too close.

267
00:14:31,923 --> 00:14:32,763
Little too close.

268
00:14:33,363 --> 00:14:40,203
Um, but yes, we had an extension and
an enhancement of our, uh, interplay

269
00:14:40,203 --> 00:14:42,513
between Holly Hunter and Paul Giamatti.

270
00:14:42,773 --> 00:14:43,843
Kevin: Holey moley.

271
00:14:43,953 --> 00:14:49,053
Rob: Um, yeah, just what we got
from episode one and what we're

272
00:14:49,053 --> 00:14:54,333
getting now is just even more, uh,
a play of two masters, um, working

273
00:14:54,333 --> 00:14:56,913
within, uh, a television format.

274
00:14:57,823 --> 00:14:58,393
Kevin: Yeah.

275
00:14:58,483 --> 00:15:02,773
Uh, Giamatti has a way of chewing
the scenery without it breaking

276
00:15:03,283 --> 00:15:09,523
the, suspension of disbelief that
it, it's big and small at the same

277
00:15:09,523 --> 00:15:12,193
time, uh, in such an amazing way.

278
00:15:12,403 --> 00:15:13,613
Rob: There's something
about Paul Giamatti.

279
00:15:13,633 --> 00:15:18,433
He's such a, uh, I don't wanna
use the word working class,

280
00:15:18,433 --> 00:15:19,783
but he is a jobbing actor.

281
00:15:20,023 --> 00:15:22,393
Like had, like, for decades.

282
00:15:22,393 --> 00:15:27,403
He has had bit parts in many
different types of films.

283
00:15:27,403 --> 00:15:33,223
So therefore he has had to be able to
adjust to, you know, action roles, to

284
00:15:33,493 --> 00:15:40,093
well action films, to broad comedies, to,
um, murder mysteries, to all these type.

285
00:15:40,123 --> 00:15:42,283
You know, he's, he's
appeared in Downton Abbey.

286
00:15:42,463 --> 00:15:49,813
He's, so that ability to shift range
and shift genre is, um, is a skill

287
00:15:49,898 --> 00:15:51,368
Kevin: There's zero ego about it.

288
00:15:51,368 --> 00:15:58,688
You feel like he is, he is completely,
um, willing to go with whatever the,

289
00:15:58,688 --> 00:16:00,218
the particular show he is on is.

290
00:16:00,218 --> 00:16:03,098
He's, he's here for whatever
is kind of the sense.

291
00:16:03,118 --> 00:16:06,418
Rob: And he's a true chameleon in the
sense that he can adjust perfectly.

292
00:16:06,418 --> 00:16:11,128
Like there, there are some actors
who aren't working as consistently in

293
00:16:11,128 --> 00:16:13,348
all these genres in supporting roles.

294
00:16:13,378 --> 00:16:18,238
So when you see them in different
genres as a, it's, it's hard to adjust.

295
00:16:18,268 --> 00:16:22,618
But he has slipped in so beautifully
into this sci-fi world, which we've

296
00:16:22,618 --> 00:16:24,148
never really seen him in before.

297
00:16:24,148 --> 00:16:29,758
We know he's a huge Star Trek fan and
playing such a, you know, theatrical

298
00:16:29,758 --> 00:16:35,258
villain at the same height of say, a
Christopher Plummer or a Ricardo Montalban

299
00:16:35,308 --> 00:16:41,343
type of theatricality, but still grounding
it, um, is an impressive sight to see.

300
00:16:42,233 --> 00:16:42,653
Kevin: Yeah.

301
00:16:42,833 --> 00:16:45,623
Bringing that big a presence
to the screen without breaking

302
00:16:45,623 --> 00:16:47,513
everything around him yeah.

303
00:16:47,513 --> 00:16:48,713
An impressive feat for sure.

304
00:16:48,833 --> 00:16:50,603
And Holly Hunter, Ugh.

305
00:16:50,933 --> 00:16:56,783
Uh, when, when Nus Braka turns
his back to her and she allows

306
00:16:56,783 --> 00:16:58,493
like the cracks to show.

307
00:16:59,033 --> 00:17:05,753
Those mo, like he's been, he's been, uh,
he's been monologuing about the death

308
00:17:05,753 --> 00:17:09,953
of her son for what feels like five
minutes, and then he finally turns his

309
00:17:09,953 --> 00:17:14,873
back to her and you just see her like,
clench and, and break just for a moment.

310
00:17:14,933 --> 00:17:17,753
And, uh, I was like, wow, there it is.

311
00:17:17,753 --> 00:17:20,543
That, that is the best acting
I've ever seen in Star Trek.

312
00:17:20,833 --> 00:17:21,493
Rob: Oh, and that's the thing.

313
00:17:21,493 --> 00:17:25,633
It's that two different styles and
two different, I mean, it's what

314
00:17:25,633 --> 00:17:32,203
the characters require, but to have
that largeness of, and largeness

315
00:17:32,203 --> 00:17:34,573
in many ways is a, is an insult.

316
00:17:34,573 --> 00:17:36,073
I really don't want to use that way, word.

317
00:17:36,073 --> 00:17:37,443
Actually, for Giamatti.

318
00:17:37,638 --> 00:17:46,033
The, the, the grandness of his performance
is, is, is so pitch perfect, but you can't

319
00:17:46,033 --> 00:17:48,433
have Holly Hunter hit that same level.

320
00:17:48,523 --> 00:17:53,263
So to have her quiet, her stillness,
her facial expressions, her eye

321
00:17:53,263 --> 00:18:00,058
movement, that, that, that contradiction
or, yeah, juxtaposition, if you

322
00:18:00,058 --> 00:18:06,508
want to use favorite word, of
minimal and grand is just a perfect

323
00:18:06,508 --> 00:18:08,368
balance, perfectly played out here.

324
00:18:08,568 --> 00:18:09,228
Kevin: Yeah.

325
00:18:09,228 --> 00:18:14,058
Giamatti's, I see why you don't wanna
use largeness, because I feel like

326
00:18:14,058 --> 00:18:18,078
when you play something that big
often it's no longer in your control.

327
00:18:18,438 --> 00:18:22,728
And he is still in, in such control
of, in instrument, even though

328
00:18:22,728 --> 00:18:24,228
it's playing that loudly, it's

329
00:18:24,233 --> 00:18:24,523
Rob: Yeah.

330
00:18:24,988 --> 00:18:27,502
Kevin: But yeah, Holly Hunter's,
Holly Hunter's soft, uh,

331
00:18:27,532 --> 00:18:29,242
counterpoint was incredible.

332
00:18:29,407 --> 00:18:34,762
In, in a scene when she gets called
away and she shares her insights

333
00:18:34,762 --> 00:18:38,122
of, I knew if I let him talk long
enough, he'd eventually slip up.

334
00:18:38,332 --> 00:18:39,502
This is what I'm seeing.

335
00:18:39,622 --> 00:18:44,602
And yet, as she's analyzing rationally,
there is a tear hanging from her

336
00:18:44,602 --> 00:18:48,532
bottom eyelid because of the emotional
impact of what she's just been through.

337
00:18:48,802 --> 00:18:49,882
It is incredible.

338
00:18:50,247 --> 00:18:53,787
Rob: What she has to, what she has
to endure to get the information.

339
00:18:53,967 --> 00:18:55,677
That's it even more heartbreaking.

340
00:18:55,677 --> 00:18:59,847
She goes through all
that and she still fails.

341
00:19:00,637 --> 00:19:03,517
Kevin: and yet hurt at the same time.

342
00:19:03,537 --> 00:19:04,197
Rob: Exactly.

343
00:19:04,407 --> 00:19:10,347
And to have that satisfying moment at the
end where he finally lets down all his

344
00:19:10,347 --> 00:19:16,257
guard and, you know, there's that relish
of, you know, uh, mean-spirited diplomacy.

345
00:19:16,587 --> 00:19:21,327
Um, but at the end he just strips it
all back and just goes, I just hate you.

346
00:19:22,017 --> 00:19:25,047
And don't really hear that
type of stuff in Star Trek.

347
00:19:25,047 --> 00:19:29,247
You hear, you know, many different
levels of, you know, unless it's, you

348
00:19:29,247 --> 00:19:33,357
know, you know, the powerful of Kirk
revealing his racism and prejudice

349
00:19:33,357 --> 00:19:35,817
towards the Klingons, Let them die.

350
00:19:36,162 --> 00:19:41,352
That's a similar level of I just
hate you and I will, you know, I

351
00:19:41,352 --> 00:19:44,772
will do everything in my power to
tear you apart and tear you down.

352
00:19:44,772 --> 00:19:48,492
It's, yeah, it, it, it takes
it to a different, uh, level

353
00:19:48,552 --> 00:19:52,902
performance wise and, and story-wise,
which is, we have now shifted.

354
00:19:52,902 --> 00:19:58,962
I don't see we can go back to, it'll be as
it used to be done in eighties, nineties

355
00:19:58,962 --> 00:20:01,152
television when you had 25, 26 episodes.

356
00:20:01,152 --> 00:20:02,382
I know we've talked about that before.

357
00:20:02,382 --> 00:20:06,822
So that's your bingo ticked off,
but with such a limited number

358
00:20:06,822 --> 00:20:10,542
of episodes, 10, we've got, yes.

359
00:20:11,442 --> 00:20:13,302
That I don't us, yeah.

360
00:20:13,302 --> 00:20:17,082
I don't see us shifting back
into a lighter, you know,

361
00:20:17,082 --> 00:20:19,062
monster of the week type episode.

362
00:20:19,362 --> 00:20:20,802
This, the, the tone has

363
00:20:20,932 --> 00:20:24,712
Kevin: I feel like they might have just
have room for one more light episode.

364
00:20:25,252 --> 00:20:28,342
Feel like in the same way as
Best of Both Worlds in TNG

365
00:20:28,342 --> 00:20:30,142
had to be followed by Family.

366
00:20:30,592 --> 00:20:37,792
It was the third part of that two-parter
where normality was re-earned, the,

367
00:20:37,792 --> 00:20:40,012
characters had a moment to heal.

368
00:20:40,792 --> 00:20:44,122
I feel like we're gonna need at least
an episode where these characters have

369
00:20:44,122 --> 00:20:45,622
a moment to heal from what they've been

370
00:20:46,402 --> 00:20:48,682
So that's, that's episode seven.

371
00:20:49,192 --> 00:20:54,772
Then you got episode eight to do I think
almost anything you want with, and then

372
00:20:54,832 --> 00:20:56,632
nine and ten to finish off the season.

373
00:20:57,537 --> 00:21:01,827
Rob: Yeah, because we still have a lot
of scars, obviously, um, to, to heal.

374
00:21:02,007 --> 00:21:05,997
We have characters in, you
know, almost self-induced comas.

375
00:21:06,267 --> 00:21:09,987
We've got, you know, holograms
that have been, you know,

376
00:21:10,017 --> 00:21:12,387
almost shattered beyond repair.

377
00:21:12,427 --> 00:21:12,907
Kevin: Yeah.

378
00:21:13,237 --> 00:21:13,597
Oh.

379
00:21:13,927 --> 00:21:15,907
Hearing SAM call for Jay-den.

380
00:21:15,907 --> 00:21:17,287
Help me Jay-den, at the end.

381
00:21:17,287 --> 00:21:21,427
Oh, it's hit, it's hitting me
now, uh, just talking about it.

382
00:21:21,567 --> 00:21:22,137
Rob: Yeah.

383
00:21:22,227 --> 00:21:22,557
Yeah.

384
00:21:23,017 --> 00:21:23,287
Kevin: Uh,

385
00:21:23,952 --> 00:21:26,832
Rob: And Kyle being, uh, uh, injured.

386
00:21:26,862 --> 00:21:29,382
I was there worried that like he's,
there was gonna be some, maybe some

387
00:21:29,382 --> 00:21:31,182
infection or something like that, but

388
00:21:31,207 --> 00:21:37,127
Kevin: No, I think he's, I think, scarred
emotionally from the fact that, uh, B'Avi

389
00:21:37,147 --> 00:21:38,977
jumped in front of him and took the shot.

390
00:21:38,977 --> 00:21:41,627
I he's gonna feel a bit of
survivor's guilt from that.

391
00:21:42,222 --> 00:21:47,772
Rob: And that, yeah, B'Avi, B'Avi's
sacrifice was a, a wonderful, um, gut

392
00:21:48,037 --> 00:21:50,767
Kevin: Never say out loud
the needs of the many.

393
00:21:50,862 --> 00:21:51,582
Rob: It's the Spock

394
00:21:51,627 --> 00:21:54,111
Kevin: as you quote it, you're done for.

395
00:21:54,131 --> 00:21:57,641
Rob: You done for, you're done for,
and you love comics, so we've gotta

396
00:21:57,641 --> 00:21:59,381
have, you know, that value there.

397
00:21:59,861 --> 00:22:00,641
Wonderfully performed.

398
00:22:00,641 --> 00:22:03,611
And we've seen him a little
bit in, um, earlier episodes.

399
00:22:03,611 --> 00:22:05,801
So to have that background character.

400
00:22:05,801 --> 00:22:06,011
Yeah.

401
00:22:06,071 --> 00:22:06,401
Yeah.

402
00:22:06,821 --> 00:22:10,241
Again, even more of a,
a elevated red shirt.

403
00:22:10,971 --> 00:22:11,451
Kevin: Yeah.

404
00:22:11,511 --> 00:22:14,001
Uh, he was, uh, yeah, he did a good job.

405
00:22:14,121 --> 00:22:14,931
Um,

406
00:22:15,801 --> 00:22:20,751
Red shirt in the sense that they gave
us just enough reason to like him

407
00:22:20,901 --> 00:22:23,481
before killing him in the same episode.

408
00:22:24,171 --> 00:22:27,811
Uh, but yes, he, he will be
remembered fondly, B'Avi.

409
00:22:28,181 --> 00:22:30,671
Rob: And good Vulcan, good
Vulcan acting, I believe.

410
00:22:31,251 --> 00:22:32,061
Kevin: Yeah, for sure.

411
00:22:32,091 --> 00:22:32,331
Yeah.

412
00:22:32,451 --> 00:22:38,061
Vulcan comic nerd is a great
twist that we got to see here.

413
00:22:38,231 --> 00:22:42,401
Rob: And I think it does fit within
the Vulcan culture to be a book nerd.

414
00:22:42,431 --> 00:22:42,851
Yeah.

415
00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:47,316
Kevin: But zooming out, like this,
this episode did a remarkable job,

416
00:22:47,316 --> 00:22:51,556
I think, of building up multiple
layers of false confidence for us.

417
00:22:51,646 --> 00:22:55,266
There's this particular scene where
they, they go through not just the

418
00:22:55,266 --> 00:23:01,056
plan, but the three plans they have
to out, out, uh, play the Furies.

419
00:23:01,326 --> 00:23:05,106
They, they're like, okay, we'll get the
sonic weapon, and in case that doesn't

420
00:23:05,106 --> 00:23:09,396
work, Tarima Sadal's telepathy will
help the cadets get the singularity

421
00:23:09,396 --> 00:23:13,476
drive online and, and disrupt the
field so we can beam them away.

422
00:23:13,506 --> 00:23:17,466
And on top of that, we've already got
a lead on detecting their cloaked ship.

423
00:23:17,856 --> 00:23:22,026
So Genesis, uh, on, on, on
the bridge, we'll detect them.

424
00:23:22,086 --> 00:23:24,756
And so we've got three
aces up our sleeves.

425
00:23:24,756 --> 00:23:26,076
How can we lose?

426
00:23:26,076 --> 00:23:27,756
Is how we're meant to feel.

427
00:23:28,176 --> 00:23:29,901
And then one by one, they fail.

428
00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:35,441
Rob: This, this did, this episode
did feel like the, The Dark Night, or

429
00:23:35,441 --> 00:23:43,841
Skyfall in a sense of, um, the, not
only were the bad guys a step ahead,

430
00:23:43,931 --> 00:23:46,541
they were four or five steps ahead.

431
00:23:46,601 --> 00:23:52,661
So, and makes it even more impressive or a
little bit could be pushed for credulity.

432
00:23:53,051 --> 00:23:58,721
Um, but that sense of we have
three backup plans and the bad

433
00:23:58,721 --> 00:24:01,841
guys have all of those covered.

434
00:24:02,124 --> 00:24:08,334
Kevin: And all to get something, question
mark, off of this space station, J-19

435
00:24:08,354 --> 00:24:12,704
Alpha, where the highly classified
kind of technology is researched.

436
00:24:13,099 --> 00:24:16,129
Rob: I don't want to hear,
uh, any, uh, section 31 type

437
00:24:16,129 --> 00:24:18,319
of, uh, hidden fortress areas.

438
00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:21,349
But it'll be interesting to, yeah,
find out if we find out more about

439
00:24:21,349 --> 00:24:27,139
what this space was and, um, what
remnants of, uh, the history of

440
00:24:27,139 --> 00:24:28,909
Star Trek is, uh, connected to it.

441
00:24:29,296 --> 00:24:32,116
Kevin: Yeah, I'm almost hoping
it's not connected to some history.

442
00:24:32,116 --> 00:24:33,886
I'm hoping it's something brand new.

443
00:24:34,066 --> 00:24:38,686
Uh, 'cause I think this series is
working best when it is creating new.

444
00:24:38,686 --> 00:24:44,656
I mean, we liked our homage to Deep Space
Nine, but even then, even that was done

445
00:24:44,656 --> 00:24:47,656
in a forward looking, I thought, way.

446
00:24:47,656 --> 00:24:50,716
It was not so nostalgic
that it was wallowing.

447
00:24:50,746 --> 00:24:56,686
And so I hope that this has, this
has to do with Nus Braka's final

448
00:24:56,686 --> 00:25:02,536
message where he promises one more
thing to, to Nala, I owe you this.

449
00:25:02,806 --> 00:25:06,076
And, uh, we don't know what this is in.

450
00:25:06,106 --> 00:25:09,736
Uh, presumably it is, uh, something
to do with whatever has been

451
00:25:09,736 --> 00:25:11,116
stolen from the space station.

452
00:25:11,261 --> 00:25:12,821
Rob: And possibly Caleb's mum!

453
00:25:12,891 --> 00:25:14,356
Kevin: Can't wait to see where it goes.

454
00:25:14,641 --> 00:25:15,151
Rob: Yeah.

455
00:25:15,151 --> 00:25:16,621
Four more episodes to go.

456
00:25:16,741 --> 00:25:19,261
Um, I think this was a good shift in tone.

457
00:25:19,291 --> 00:25:24,181
We still have space for the, um,
you know, the ramifications of

458
00:25:24,181 --> 00:25:28,651
what's happened and then possibly
a, little lighter affair before we

459
00:25:28,651 --> 00:25:33,081
bring it home with our, I presume
our, uh, two episode season finale.

460
00:25:34,181 --> 00:25:34,471
Kevin: Yeah.

461
00:25:34,666 --> 00:25:36,496
Presumably maybe, maybe, maybe not.

462
00:25:36,496 --> 00:25:42,226
We'll Um, what did you think of, uh,
Tarima's superpower, uh, unleashed?

463
00:25:42,696 --> 00:25:42,966
Rob: Look.

464
00:25:42,966 --> 00:25:43,266
Yes.

465
00:25:43,266 --> 00:25:47,436
The one I was, I was a little
bit awkward with the extended,

466
00:25:47,496 --> 00:25:49,476
uh, sauciness of the opening.

467
00:25:49,896 --> 00:25:52,596
Um, I mean, I, it's weird.

468
00:25:52,686 --> 00:25:56,946
I'm the one who wanted to bring up the
sex episodes in, uh, Star Trek, but I, I

469
00:25:56,946 --> 00:26:00,666
feel much more comfortable with some of
the lines of, they feel awkward about it.

470
00:26:00,786 --> 00:26:02,016
And now I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.

471
00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:03,396
You're leaning into it now?

472
00:26:03,456 --> 00:26:03,846
Okay.

473
00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:05,826
Um, now I'm getting my p prune on.

474
00:26:06,666 --> 00:26:07,176
Prune on?

475
00:26:07,206 --> 00:26:08,706
My prude on, sorry.

476
00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:10,266
Don't wanna get those words mixed up.

477
00:26:10,347 --> 00:26:15,054
Kevin: Yeah, I, I, I think these
characters are young enough, and we are

478
00:26:15,054 --> 00:26:19,014
old enough, that I felt like I should
not be watching what I'm watching.

479
00:26:19,404 --> 00:26:20,064
This is not for

480
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:25,254
Rob: But also the way it was shot, the
l the, the slow motion lingering thing

481
00:26:25,326 --> 00:26:28,716
didn't even come across, it did, for
me it didn't come across as anything

482
00:26:29,136 --> 00:26:32,586
alluring or arousing or titillating.

483
00:26:32,961 --> 00:26:34,701
It was quite labored.

484
00:26:35,181 --> 00:26:39,411
Um, and like the reactions of both the
actors who have been doing very, very

485
00:26:39,411 --> 00:26:42,981
good, they're very good actors, but
their looks looked a bit bored and tired.

486
00:26:43,311 --> 00:26:45,441
And I'm there going, right, okay.

487
00:26:45,441 --> 00:26:47,211
I want chemistry between these people.

488
00:26:47,481 --> 00:26:50,631
But yes, old men looking at young people.

489
00:26:50,871 --> 00:26:54,591
I did feel a bit, um, maybe I
should be watching something else.

490
00:26:54,731 --> 00:26:57,881
Kevin: When I rewatch this episode,
I'll skip over the first five minutes.

491
00:26:59,041 --> 00:26:59,971
Rob: Okay, we're at the flowers.

492
00:26:59,971 --> 00:27:00,901
I can get that sense.

493
00:27:01,081 --> 00:27:08,611
Um, yeah, there's been a, a nice balance
with her superpowers in well of enough

494
00:27:08,611 --> 00:27:14,761
information, but not too much, to go
she has abilities that, uh, need to be

495
00:27:14,761 --> 00:27:20,641
controlled so they can pretty much go,
these are the powers that we need that

496
00:27:20,641 --> 00:27:23,401
are convenient for the plot, so we can

497
00:27:23,441 --> 00:27:27,041
Kevin: Yeah, a little worried that
she's gonna be able to do anything and

498
00:27:27,041 --> 00:27:29,381
everything that any given plot needs.

499
00:27:29,381 --> 00:27:35,381
I kind of like the fact that they tied,
they tied her scream at the end to the

500
00:27:35,381 --> 00:27:38,861
bats, to her father's loss of hearing.

501
00:27:39,551 --> 00:27:45,581
Uh, that it, it is at least specific
and related enough that I feel like

502
00:27:45,581 --> 00:27:49,091
she is not a generic superhero.

503
00:27:49,421 --> 00:27:53,411
She has this powerful psychic
scream that she can do, and

504
00:27:53,411 --> 00:27:55,721
is not entirely in control of.

505
00:27:55,721 --> 00:27:58,931
And, and that feels at least
narrow enough that it's not gonna

506
00:27:58,931 --> 00:28:00,941
be a, a plot device of the week.

507
00:28:01,336 --> 00:28:04,156
Rob: Yeah, I'm trying to figure
out how I feel about that.

508
00:28:04,186 --> 00:28:12,316
I'm a little bit torn about her being the
cause of her father's deafness, and does

509
00:28:12,316 --> 00:28:17,566
that take away from the representation
of just having, you know, it does,

510
00:28:17,656 --> 00:28:23,341
uh, having, having a character with a
disability on screen doesn't need to

511
00:28:23,341 --> 00:28:25,201
be connected to something traumatic

512
00:28:25,221 --> 00:28:26,906
Kevin: Yeah, I see that for sure.

513
00:28:26,971 --> 00:28:28,231
Rob: I, I'm not sure how

514
00:28:28,436 --> 00:28:29,576
Kevin: a shame to lose.

515
00:28:29,821 --> 00:28:30,211
Rob: Yeah.

516
00:28:30,211 --> 00:28:31,651
A part of me was a bit, oh, okay.

517
00:28:31,651 --> 00:28:32,911
That's a cute tie in.

518
00:28:33,271 --> 00:28:36,511
But then there's a part of me
going, do I, do we just, would I

519
00:28:36,536 --> 00:28:41,066
Kevin: the, are the only deaf people
in Star Trek, the ones that are

520
00:28:41,116 --> 00:28:43,686
irreparably destroyed by this superpower?

521
00:28:43,934 --> 00:28:46,699
Do we lose that
representation in this future?

522
00:28:46,704 --> 00:28:46,964
Yeah.

523
00:28:46,974 --> 00:28:49,644
Rob: As opposed to just having,
there, there are people who are,

524
00:28:49,914 --> 00:28:53,454
you know, in this position, they
could be born that way, you know?

525
00:28:53,544 --> 00:28:54,474
Uh, anything like that.

526
00:28:54,534 --> 00:28:55,134
I'm not sure.

527
00:28:55,164 --> 00:28:58,104
I haven't decided in my
mind where I sit with it.

528
00:28:58,374 --> 00:29:00,234
It's just something where it, it came up.

529
00:29:01,294 --> 00:29:06,784
Kevin: I, I heroic work done by the actor
playing her brother Ocam Sadal, kind

530
00:29:06,784 --> 00:29:12,094
of being the, I thought the, the little
monologue he has of Oh, that, that record,

531
00:29:12,124 --> 00:29:14,614
that file is inaccurate and out of date.

532
00:29:14,674 --> 00:29:17,794
And, uh, this is, this is the deal.

533
00:29:18,154 --> 00:29:20,764
And she actually kind
of did it him a favor.

534
00:29:20,764 --> 00:29:22,324
I was learning trumpet that week.

535
00:29:22,654 --> 00:29:25,504
The, the, the bit of
comedy in there as well.

536
00:29:25,504 --> 00:29:27,694
I thought it was, it was pitch perfect.

537
00:29:27,694 --> 00:29:32,734
It, it really worked in the moment to
kind of sell this absurd sci-fi idea.

538
00:29:32,899 --> 00:29:34,584
Rob: He is a great addition to the cast.

539
00:29:34,584 --> 00:29:39,534
He has been able to do that balance
of be, you know, the annoying one, the

540
00:29:39,844 --> 00:29:40,504
Kevin: Yeah.

541
00:29:40,564 --> 00:29:42,184
The other week he said, I'm a joiner.

542
00:29:42,184 --> 00:29:43,234
It's my fatal flaw.

543
00:29:43,234 --> 00:29:47,674
And I thought that is just a funny
one line and, and it has nothing to

544
00:29:47,674 --> 00:29:49,504
do with anything, but it delighted me.

545
00:29:49,749 --> 00:29:53,484
Rob: And he did have some heavy lifting
this week and it wasn't jarring.

546
00:29:53,484 --> 00:29:58,374
So that's a credit to him to be able to
still get a bit of a, uh, a joke in there,

547
00:29:58,374 --> 00:30:05,124
but still true to character, but not take
away from, uh, the drama of that scene.

548
00:30:05,124 --> 00:30:07,044
So that, that was some,
that was some nice play.

549
00:30:07,969 --> 00:30:08,269
Kevin: Yeah.

550
00:30:09,229 --> 00:30:11,514
Uh, anything else you wanna cover off in

551
00:30:11,604 --> 00:30:15,324
Rob: No, I, I, the one thing I did
want to, you know, we've celebrated

552
00:30:15,324 --> 00:30:17,334
the, the grimness of the episode.

553
00:30:17,334 --> 00:30:22,554
It was a failure, an abject failure
on all accounts and the fact that

554
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,809
Kevin: It was a failure hidden
inside, a bunch of presumed

555
00:30:26,809 --> 00:30:29,659
successes and overconfidence.

556
00:30:29,719 --> 00:30:30,739
Uh, so good.

557
00:30:31,284 --> 00:30:36,924
Rob: Yeah, there was maybe, maybe a
one little bit about Ake's disdain and

558
00:30:36,924 --> 00:30:41,004
look down and how that has played to
going, you think you're better than me?

559
00:30:41,454 --> 00:30:44,364
You, and you haven't had
to fight for anything.

560
00:30:44,364 --> 00:30:48,954
You don't know what it really is like
out there in this, that type of, um.

561
00:30:49,584 --> 00:30:54,864
You know, that balance of, uh,
philosophies on life and, you know,

562
00:30:54,864 --> 00:30:56,814
who's the true villain type of element.

563
00:30:56,814 --> 00:31:00,984
There were parts of that in there
within, uh, all the gloriousness of,

564
00:31:01,134 --> 00:31:03,414
uh, Hunter and Giamatti's scenes.

565
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:10,344
Kevin: I wanna believe that Nustopher was
an ad-lib by Paul Giamatti, Nus is short

566
00:31:10,344 --> 00:31:13,359
for Nustopher, um, ridiculously funny.

567
00:31:15,769 --> 00:31:20,629
All right, so the, the thing that
sparked for me this episode was the

568
00:31:20,629 --> 00:31:26,359
efforts by the cadets on the bridge
of the Miyazaki to kind of talk, talk

569
00:31:26,419 --> 00:31:31,699
the ship's computer into understanding
that its crew is dead and that it is in

570
00:31:31,699 --> 00:31:37,219
a new crisis and it needs to respond,
and their success in doing that.

571
00:31:37,219 --> 00:31:42,019
It made me think, well, yeah, there,
like as long as there has been Star

572
00:31:42,019 --> 00:31:46,159
Trek, there have been computers that
can talk back to our, ship's computers

573
00:31:46,159 --> 00:31:47,869
that can talk back to our crews.

574
00:31:47,959 --> 00:31:54,019
And over the decades they have
become more and more sentient.

575
00:31:54,019 --> 00:31:56,869
And there have been moments
where that has been relevant to

576
00:31:56,869 --> 00:31:58,669
the show or the plot at hand.

577
00:31:59,029 --> 00:32:04,234
Um, pretty clear that the 32nd
century features ships', computers

578
00:32:04,234 --> 00:32:09,724
that are more sentient and in, in
this case, have broken, uh, broken

579
00:32:09,724 --> 00:32:11,884
personalities than ever before.

580
00:32:11,914 --> 00:32:16,714
But, um, I wanted to look back at, at
what other examples we have of ships

581
00:32:17,014 --> 00:32:20,944
having personalities or the computer
specifically having some kind of

582
00:32:20,944 --> 00:32:25,174
personality or personal interaction
with, with our, our characters.

583
00:32:25,684 --> 00:32:31,594
Um, so I've got a pretty
early one, uh, from TOS, Rob.

584
00:32:32,199 --> 00:32:34,539
Rob: I've got one from after TOS.

585
00:32:34,539 --> 00:32:37,239
It's an episode we've kind
of talked about before.

586
00:32:37,389 --> 00:32:42,069
So, um, you bring up yours and
then we can sort of like touch on

587
00:32:42,069 --> 00:32:45,009
mine and springboard into a deeper
conversation in the next one.

588
00:32:45,969 --> 00:32:46,369
Kevin: Cool.

589
00:32:47,174 --> 00:32:52,724
Throughout TOS, the computer most of
the time was just buttons and lights.

590
00:32:52,724 --> 00:32:58,424
But in a, in a court proceeding like a
court martial or when someone is being

591
00:32:58,724 --> 00:33:04,454
given a deposition or something, often the
computer voice in a very mechanical tone

592
00:33:04,454 --> 00:33:10,214
would read out records and things like
that, uh, for our characters to be given

593
00:33:10,214 --> 00:33:14,264
a, a bit of a, a, a, uh, exposition dump.

594
00:33:14,744 --> 00:33:20,144
But one episode came to mind where it
changed a little bit, and this is season

595
00:33:20,144 --> 00:33:23,474
one, episode 21, Tomorrow is Yesterday.

596
00:33:23,954 --> 00:33:24,829
Is a great episode.

597
00:33:24,899 --> 00:33:28,214
It's actually kind of, when I
re-watched it, I realized it's kind

598
00:33:28,214 --> 00:33:34,274
of a prototype for Star Trek IV,
because in this episode our crew goes

599
00:33:34,274 --> 00:33:39,764
back in time to the present day where
the show was actually being made.

600
00:33:40,394 --> 00:33:44,024
And, uh, they have a little
adventure in present day.

601
00:33:44,704 --> 00:33:50,824
And the entire challenge to our
characters is how do we get ourselves

602
00:33:50,824 --> 00:33:54,694
back home without accidentally
changing the past and erasing our

603
00:33:54,694 --> 00:33:57,344
future, which is very Star Trek IV.

604
00:33:57,441 --> 00:33:58,271
Rob: Very George and Gracie!

605
00:33:58,841 --> 00:34:01,834
Kevin: And it is comic in the
same way that Star Trek IV is.

606
00:34:01,834 --> 00:34:09,244
There's a lot of like how absurd our
straight laced, uh, Starfleet characters

607
00:34:09,244 --> 00:34:12,154
are when brought into an everyday context.

608
00:34:12,154 --> 00:34:17,344
And Kirk is arrested on, uh, by
security on a military base and they

609
00:34:17,344 --> 00:34:20,554
have him sat in a chair and they say,
is this a uniform you're wearing?

610
00:34:20,554 --> 00:34:22,654
And Kirk goes This little old thing?

611
00:34:22,654 --> 00:34:24,154
I just threw it on this morning.

612
00:34:24,424 --> 00:34:29,074
It, it, it has got all of that
going on in it way back here in

613
00:34:29,074 --> 00:34:31,534
season one of the original series.

614
00:34:31,864 --> 00:34:38,164
Um, so yeah, it's a great one, but
mixed in with this early semi comic

615
00:34:38,464 --> 00:34:44,179
episode, of and, and a time travel
story, there is a tiny detail that has

616
00:34:44,179 --> 00:34:47,749
nothing to do with anything, and it is
the ship's computer on the Enterprise.

617
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:53,369
Um, early in this episode, the Enterprise,
which appears in low earth orbit and

618
00:34:53,369 --> 00:34:58,469
is spotted by a military jet, they,
they accidentally crush the military

619
00:34:58,469 --> 00:35:03,359
jet with their tractor beam and have to
rescue the pilot by beaming him aboard.

620
00:35:03,359 --> 00:35:06,899
And so he is the Gillian
Taylor of this story.

621
00:35:06,899 --> 00:35:12,449
This is Captain Christopher who, uh,
walks around wide-eyed and, and, uh,

622
00:35:12,449 --> 00:35:14,789
is stunned by Spock's pointy ears.

623
00:35:15,764 --> 00:35:20,594
But once he finds his bearings,
he joins Kirk and Spock in Kirk's

624
00:35:20,594 --> 00:35:23,894
quarters where they talk about
what's gonna happen to him.

625
00:35:24,104 --> 00:35:26,984
Is he gonna stay aboard, or does
he have to be returned home?

626
00:35:27,344 --> 00:35:30,164
Now that he's aware of the future,
is that gonna be a problem?

627
00:35:30,254 --> 00:35:33,884
And while they're doing this,
they're consulting the record tapes

628
00:35:33,884 --> 00:35:40,503
and Kirk's computer speaks in a
uncharacteristically warm tone.

629
00:35:40,503 --> 00:35:42,813
It is flirting with Captain Kirk.

630
00:35:43,233 --> 00:35:50,103
Uh, he, uh, uh, he is shocked
by this, and, and Spock who is

631
00:35:50,103 --> 00:35:53,373
there kind of rolls his eyes like,
oh, we still haven't fixed this.

632
00:35:53,403 --> 00:35:58,743
And it is revealed that the last place
they put in for repairs was a planet,

633
00:35:58,983 --> 00:36:04,553
quote, dominated by women, unquote,
where they decided that the ship's

634
00:36:04,553 --> 00:36:09,863
computer needed more personality, and
to quote Spock, of course it should

635
00:36:09,863 --> 00:36:12,293
have a female personality, unquote.

636
00:36:12,743 --> 00:36:18,303
And so the the gag here is that the
ship's computer has been feminized

637
00:36:18,363 --> 00:36:23,523
too much and is now flirting with
the captain and is very emotional.

638
00:36:23,583 --> 00:36:27,093
Spock says, and it has an
unfortunate tendency to giggle.

639
00:36:27,963 --> 00:36:31,533
And it's, it's all very
cringey and doesn't well.

640
00:36:31,593 --> 00:36:37,233
But it is the first example I could find
of the, uh, the ship's computer taking on

641
00:36:37,233 --> 00:36:40,143
a personality as a, as a prominent point.

642
00:36:40,323 --> 00:36:44,323
Kirk uh, does a log where he tries
to get the computer to behave.

643
00:36:44,323 --> 00:36:49,093
He says, uh, maintenance note, uh,
please log my recommendation that

644
00:36:49,093 --> 00:36:54,073
my computer's personality issue
be resolved or it be scrapped.

645
00:36:54,143 --> 00:36:55,923
And, Kirk goes compute.

646
00:36:56,013 --> 00:36:59,943
And the computer goes
computed as it is hurt.

647
00:37:00,663 --> 00:37:05,433
So yeah, it is all very, uh, it
is all very silly and does not,

648
00:37:05,553 --> 00:37:09,453
uh, it is not something to be
proud of by today's standards.

649
00:37:09,453 --> 00:37:11,103
But it was prominent at the time.

650
00:37:11,403 --> 00:37:14,883
This episode, one of the first, if
not the first, written by DC Fontana,

651
00:37:14,913 --> 00:37:20,613
who is still, um, who is still Gene
Roddenberry's secretary at the time.

652
00:37:20,823 --> 00:37:25,356
There's some memos I was able to find
around this time where they're joking

653
00:37:25,356 --> 00:37:31,086
about, ha how this feedback about the
script should, should never fall into

654
00:37:31,116 --> 00:37:35,316
the hands of the writer, the very
talented writer who wrote it, they

655
00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:41,436
recommended it be kept with Gene's
secretary for safekeeping, they're talking

656
00:37:41,436 --> 00:37:45,636
about, but not quite acknowledging in
writing that that's the same person.

657
00:37:45,936 --> 00:37:47,016
Uh, funny stuff.

658
00:37:47,676 --> 00:37:52,446
Um, yeah, they, there was, uh, there
were people who thought that that,

659
00:37:52,446 --> 00:37:57,306
uh, that personality stuff from the
computer didn't fit in this episode.

660
00:37:57,486 --> 00:38:01,366
Bob Justman at the time wrote, I
seriously doubt that this, this

661
00:38:01,366 --> 00:38:06,046
computer voice routine has value
for us in this type of story.

662
00:38:06,046 --> 00:38:08,506
The story we're attempting to
tell here should be completely

663
00:38:08,506 --> 00:38:09,736
credible to our audience.

664
00:38:09,736 --> 00:38:14,176
I think therefore, that this amusing
side play tends to distract from

665
00:38:14,176 --> 00:38:15,916
the believability of our tale.

666
00:38:16,216 --> 00:38:21,016
But, uh, Gene L. Coon, uh, who is the head
writer of the show at the time, disagreed.

667
00:38:21,016 --> 00:38:22,156
And it went ahead.

668
00:38:22,176 --> 00:38:22,716
Rob: went ahead.

669
00:38:23,166 --> 00:38:23,676
There we go.

670
00:38:23,676 --> 00:38:27,276
Thank you for those, uh, little, uh,
drops of, uh, historical information.

671
00:38:27,843 --> 00:38:28,263
Kevin: Sure.

672
00:38:28,263 --> 00:38:28,473
Yeah.

673
00:38:28,653 --> 00:38:30,363
Uh, good one to watch, I think, yeah.

674
00:38:30,543 --> 00:38:36,003
Star Trek IV is a very kind of welcoming
first Star Trek to show people, and in

675
00:38:36,003 --> 00:38:40,443
the same way, Tomorrow is Yesterady,
I think, works as a, as a, a rarely

676
00:38:40,443 --> 00:38:42,393
sighted entry point for the series.

677
00:38:43,088 --> 00:38:46,088
Rob: Wonderful, wonderful stuff.

678
00:38:46,328 --> 00:38:48,668
Well, I'm gonna jump ahead to an
episode we've talked about a couple

679
00:38:48,668 --> 00:38:52,388
of times on this show, so we don't
need to divulge into it too much, but

680
00:38:52,388 --> 00:38:56,858
I'm definitely looking at, uh, star
Trek, the animated series, season two,

681
00:38:56,888 --> 00:38:59,498
episode three, The Practical Joker,

682
00:38:59,624 --> 00:39:00,411
Kevin: Oh, of course.

683
00:39:01,281 --> 00:39:06,351
Rob: where of course, uh, going through
an ion storm of some kind of, uh, uh,

684
00:39:06,381 --> 00:39:12,891
trying to avoid Romulan ships, the,
uh, the, the Enterprise itself and the

685
00:39:12,891 --> 00:39:17,791
ergo the computer connected with it,
uh, affected in some way and start to

686
00:39:18,103 --> 00:39:22,213
run practical jokes against the ship
and they become more and more serious.

687
00:39:22,303 --> 00:39:28,153
Um, how they can get, you know, um,
boot polish on a, a magnifying glass

688
00:39:28,183 --> 00:39:32,413
for a Spock to come up with the
rims around his eyes is remarkable.

689
00:39:32,653 --> 00:39:37,513
Uh, we also have the introduction
of the Rec Room, or which it will

690
00:39:37,513 --> 00:39:42,373
become the holodeck and, uh, our three
of our crew are trapped in there.

691
00:39:42,883 --> 00:39:44,623
Um, but yes, there is communications.

692
00:39:44,623 --> 00:39:51,343
We have loud cackles and laughter from
the computer and, uh, discussions of what

693
00:39:51,373 --> 00:39:55,513
they are doing back and forth, directly
communicating with, uh, the computer.

694
00:39:55,843 --> 00:40:02,143
Uh, uh, Spock and, uh, Kirk are trying to,
um, uh, talk it down from its behavior.

695
00:40:02,291 --> 00:40:03,431
Kevin: Yeah, it's a good one.

696
00:40:03,461 --> 00:40:07,541
Uh, I, it's, uh, it's definitely
leaning into the silliness,

697
00:40:07,541 --> 00:40:09,521
like this is a comic beat again.

698
00:40:10,031 --> 00:40:14,141
It's, it's interesting to me that
both of these early examples of what

699
00:40:14,141 --> 00:40:19,981
if the computer gained a personality
was a source of comedy for show here?

700
00:40:20,251 --> 00:40:20,481
Yeah.

701
00:40:21,151 --> 00:40:26,191
Rob: And how they, the justification
behind getting to that point.

702
00:40:26,431 --> 00:40:31,831
So whether it be specific programming
from a women's dominated colony, or in

703
00:40:31,831 --> 00:40:35,821
this, going through a storm, so there's
an effecting of the circuitry there.

704
00:40:36,061 --> 00:40:40,171
Whereas of course nowadays it's all
artificial, artificial intelligence.

705
00:40:40,171 --> 00:40:41,281
We've got the word for it.

706
00:40:41,311 --> 00:40:44,971
We've got, you know, the
synthetic brain that is created.

707
00:40:44,971 --> 00:40:50,041
So the terminology has changed as science
has evolved, is a great way to watch.

708
00:40:50,491 --> 00:40:51,181
Great way to watch.

709
00:40:51,211 --> 00:40:56,911
That's why Dr. Who and Star Trek are
great examples of science fiction because

710
00:40:56,941 --> 00:41:02,431
it, because they've both been going 60
years, um, we can see how they've evolved

711
00:41:02,431 --> 00:41:07,771
storytelling and, and introducing of
characters or plot points or whatever,

712
00:41:07,771 --> 00:41:09,511
through the development of science.

713
00:41:09,511 --> 00:41:12,571
We can see that over a 60 year
period, which is fascinating.

714
00:41:13,241 --> 00:41:13,781
Kevin: Yeah.

715
00:41:13,931 --> 00:41:18,611
And it continues to evolve into
The Next Generation, which is the

716
00:41:18,611 --> 00:41:20,261
other episode I wanted to bring

717
00:41:20,491 --> 00:41:21,361
Rob: Nice lead

718
00:41:21,641 --> 00:41:24,191
Kevin: way at the end
of The Next Generation.

719
00:41:24,221 --> 00:41:27,941
Uh, this is TNG, season seven, episode 23.

720
00:41:28,751 --> 00:41:34,871
three episodes before All Good Things…
And it was one of the last things they did

721
00:41:34,871 --> 00:41:37,991
as a story of the week sort of episode.

722
00:41:38,441 --> 00:41:43,001
Um, the behind the scenes on this
episode, which is entitled Emergence,

723
00:41:43,661 --> 00:41:47,291
uh, talks about how Brannon Braga
was like, we wanted to do one last

724
00:41:47,291 --> 00:41:52,061
holodeck episode, and we weren't really
sure, we thought maybe a, a big Dixon

725
00:41:52,061 --> 00:41:53,951
Hill finish or something like that.

726
00:41:54,161 --> 00:42:00,881
But what they ended up creating here
was what if the holodeck was the

727
00:42:01,271 --> 00:42:07,571
imagination of the USS Enterprise
as it starts to gain sentience.

728
00:42:07,736 --> 00:42:07,956
Rob: Ah.

729
00:42:09,191 --> 00:42:12,341
Kevin: So very much like the ion
storm that you just, uh, talked

730
00:42:12,341 --> 00:42:13,721
about in The Animated Series.

731
00:42:13,931 --> 00:42:19,841
This episode, uh, before the start,
uh, sees the Enterprise weathering

732
00:42:19,841 --> 00:42:25,931
a quote, magnascopic storm in
some random sector of space.

733
00:42:25,991 --> 00:42:31,151
And, at the start of this episode,
our crew starts to notice malfunctions

734
00:42:31,151 --> 00:42:36,611
on board the ship, uh, unexplained,
uh, things done by the computer.

735
00:42:36,821 --> 00:42:42,211
Uh, this starts with a scene in the
holodeck where Data is practicing a

736
00:42:42,211 --> 00:42:45,541
scene from The Tempest, uh, as Prospero.

737
00:42:46,381 --> 00:42:50,791
uh, Picard is giving him notes
on how the lighting is too dim.

738
00:42:52,156 --> 00:42:56,326
And then they almost get run over
by the Orient Express, a train that

739
00:42:56,326 --> 00:43:03,016
suddenly appears, uh, unexpectedly
in, in this Shakespearean setting.

740
00:43:03,136 --> 00:43:05,356
And that's just the first mystery.

741
00:43:05,596 --> 00:43:10,666
The ship jumps to warp unexpectedly
later on, and then they look back at the

742
00:43:10,666 --> 00:43:15,406
sensor logs, they realize that that jump
to warp saved the ship from a disaster

743
00:43:15,406 --> 00:43:17,146
that would've otherwise occurred.

744
00:43:17,626 --> 00:43:23,116
And then, uh, pretty quickly they LaForge
discovers that the ship is gradually

745
00:43:23,116 --> 00:43:26,446
growing these little multicolored nodes.

746
00:43:26,446 --> 00:43:32,926
They, they look like tangles of neon
lighting, if, if, uh, you can imagine

747
00:43:33,256 --> 00:43:35,566
that, and they're hidden behind the walls.

748
00:43:35,566 --> 00:43:38,446
They're, they're connecting parts of
the computer to other parts of the

749
00:43:38,446 --> 00:43:42,826
computer that don't normally connect to
each other, and they gradually put the

750
00:43:42,826 --> 00:43:44,476
pieces together and go, you know what?

751
00:43:44,476 --> 00:43:50,026
I think the ship is, is building
its own nervous system and

752
00:43:50,026 --> 00:43:52,246
gaining sentience in the process.

753
00:43:52,576 --> 00:43:58,141
There is a, uh, an observation lounge
meeting where they talk about emergent

754
00:43:58,141 --> 00:44:03,781
properties, that, that consciousness
in humans and, and humanoids is not

755
00:44:03,781 --> 00:44:07,621
directly explainable as a combination
of their physical attributes.

756
00:44:07,621 --> 00:44:11,371
It is a property that emerges from
the complexity of that system.

757
00:44:11,491 --> 00:44:14,701
And our characters agree that, well,
you know, when you look at a certain

758
00:44:14,701 --> 00:44:19,681
way, the Enterprise has a brain and
it has sensors and it has the ability

759
00:44:19,681 --> 00:44:21,901
to reproduce with its replicators.

760
00:44:21,901 --> 00:44:26,821
And so maybe consciousness, uh, with
the help of this, uh, space storm

761
00:44:27,151 --> 00:44:30,176
might just be an emergent property
of the complexity of the ship.

762
00:44:30,776 --> 00:44:36,086
Um, they, they end up going
to the holodeck to try to

763
00:44:36,086 --> 00:44:38,576
understand what the ship wants.

764
00:44:38,996 --> 00:44:43,796
And the holodeck has got like six
programs running simultaneously.

765
00:44:43,796 --> 00:44:48,296
So there's like a, a guy, a guy
in a suit of armor, uh, using

766
00:44:48,296 --> 00:44:50,276
scissors to cut paper dolls.

767
00:44:50,276 --> 00:44:56,156
There's a gangster who, uh, wants,
uh, a gold brick for some reason.

768
00:44:56,486 --> 00:45:01,316
There's, there's all these different
characters with inscrutable goals and

769
00:45:01,316 --> 00:45:05,816
there, and many of them are working on
putting puzzle pieces together on a table

770
00:45:05,936 --> 00:45:10,256
of this, this puzzle that has a picture of
one of the nodes that I mentioned earlier.

771
00:45:10,916 --> 00:45:11,726
And, um.

772
00:45:12,256 --> 00:45:17,296
This is where this, this episode for me
kind of falters is when we get to the

773
00:45:17,296 --> 00:45:21,616
stage of, we kind of understand what might
be going on, what should we do about it?

774
00:45:21,946 --> 00:45:25,846
The, the remaining 30 minutes of this
episode is really just our characters

775
00:45:26,056 --> 00:45:28,726
walking around going, what are we doing?

776
00:45:28,726 --> 00:45:29,626
What do you want?

777
00:45:29,626 --> 00:45:30,916
What did, what is this?

778
00:45:31,216 --> 00:45:32,236
Can we understand it?

779
00:45:32,266 --> 00:45:33,016
No, we can't.

780
00:45:33,346 --> 00:45:36,826
Uh, and our characters are very passive.

781
00:45:37,136 --> 00:45:42,236
The outcome of this episode is really
just that they, they're carried along

782
00:45:42,236 --> 00:45:49,316
a ride until the Enterprise gets a
particular particle from a nebula that

783
00:45:49,316 --> 00:45:54,236
it needs to complete building its, its
own little life form that then flies off.

784
00:45:54,236 --> 00:45:54,686
The end.

785
00:45:55,061 --> 00:45:58,631
All up, our, our, our characters
make one choice of consequence.

786
00:45:58,631 --> 00:46:02,981
It's what they discover when they
figure out the Enterprise needs this

787
00:46:02,981 --> 00:46:06,341
particular particle, they realize
that they are going to run out of life

788
00:46:06,341 --> 00:46:08,651
support before the Enterprise gets to it.

789
00:46:09,251 --> 00:46:14,861
So LaForge has to find a way to get
that particle sooner, and then they

790
00:46:14,861 --> 00:46:17,651
have to convince the characters
on the holodeck to let them try.

791
00:46:17,921 --> 00:46:19,451
But that, that's about it.

792
00:46:19,451 --> 00:46:22,991
It, there's like just this one moment
of, maybe if we go to that nebula,

793
00:46:22,991 --> 00:46:24,431
please let us go to that nebula.

794
00:46:24,461 --> 00:46:25,061
Okay.

795
00:46:25,061 --> 00:46:26,351
If you're, if you promise.

796
00:46:26,351 --> 00:46:30,701
And, and like that is the
only active, uh, act that our

797
00:46:30,701 --> 00:46:32,141
characters have in this episode.

798
00:46:32,141 --> 00:46:38,921
So it, it really kind of is a story
about, uh, a sci-fi thing happening

799
00:46:39,311 --> 00:46:41,171
and our characters being witness to it.

800
00:46:41,432 --> 00:46:43,232
Rob: And that's right
near the end of the whole

801
00:46:43,526 --> 00:46:44,456
Kevin: Yeah, right near the end.

802
00:46:44,456 --> 00:46:49,016
So for those who say that, uh, that
TNG went out on a high and that season

803
00:46:49,016 --> 00:46:52,766
eight would've been glorious, there are
episodes like this one where you can see

804
00:46:52,766 --> 00:46:54,986
them kind of running out of, uh, steam.

805
00:46:57,392 --> 00:47:01,622
Rob: Well, I've, um, jumped ahead
even further and I've gone somewhere

806
00:47:01,622 --> 00:47:03,692
where I have never gone before.

807
00:47:03,905 --> 00:47:07,355
I have gone to Discovery season four.

808
00:47:07,523 --> 00:47:08,843
Kevin: Ooooh!

809
00:47:08,843 --> 00:47:09,333
Yeah.

810
00:47:09,452 --> 00:47:10,502
Rob: We're gonna have a look at Zora.

811
00:47:10,583 --> 00:47:11,363
Kevin: Yeah.

812
00:47:11,673 --> 00:47:16,233
Introduced in Calypso, which was the
Star Trek short that you, uh, you,

813
00:47:16,263 --> 00:47:18,453
you caught up on a little while back.

814
00:47:18,488 --> 00:47:19,203
Rob: Which was good.

815
00:47:19,203 --> 00:47:21,878
And I've re-watched that
again in the lead up to this.

816
00:47:21,878 --> 00:47:27,398
And that pretty much gave an endpoint for
where Discovery had to be, because it's

817
00:47:27,458 --> 00:47:33,008
in caught in a, a intergalactic storm,
abandoned in the middle of nowhere.

818
00:47:33,338 --> 00:47:35,198
Um, there's a, a shipwreck.

819
00:47:35,738 --> 00:47:39,908
Um, uh, uh, crew member, only
survivor is brought on board and he

820
00:47:39,908 --> 00:47:45,398
begins this relationship with, uh,
Zora and getting his memory back and

821
00:47:45,398 --> 00:47:48,458
the, he's got a family left behind.

822
00:47:48,496 --> 00:47:48,706
Kevin: Yeah.

823
00:47:48,706 --> 00:47:50,236
Really interesting, this stuff.

824
00:47:50,236 --> 00:47:54,106
Like Zora introduced here as kind
of a promise about the future, and

825
00:47:54,106 --> 00:47:58,366
then they had to work their way
into justifying it retroactively.

826
00:47:58,366 --> 00:48:02,446
At this point in Discovery, they
had still not lept into the future.

827
00:48:02,446 --> 00:48:07,336
So the idea that that Discovery
would be in this far off future

828
00:48:07,336 --> 00:48:12,976
with a sentient computer named
Zora onboard was a big leap.

829
00:48:13,396 --> 00:48:18,136
Uh, and I, they must have known they were
jumping to the future at the end of season

830
00:48:18,136 --> 00:48:23,176
two by this point, to at least have that,
that sentient computer thing happening.

831
00:48:23,497 --> 00:48:23,717
Rob: Yes.

832
00:48:24,172 --> 00:48:25,702
And so we had that point.

833
00:48:25,702 --> 00:48:30,922
So the final episode is Burnham coming
back, um, a very old, distinguished

834
00:48:30,922 --> 00:48:37,057
admiral and taking the ship into,
uh, the, the nebula or the storm

835
00:48:37,111 --> 00:48:37,681
Kevin: Yeah.

836
00:48:37,741 --> 00:48:39,781
Quite ham-fistedly mentioning.

837
00:48:39,781 --> 00:48:40,111
Yeah.

838
00:48:40,141 --> 00:48:44,071
That Zora has to go and meet someone
named Book, like the fact that

839
00:48:44,071 --> 00:48:49,981
they apparently know what outcome
they're putting, this the, the

840
00:48:50,107 --> 00:48:51,337
Rob: Was a Book or craft?

841
00:48:52,267 --> 00:48:52,927
Craft.

842
00:48:53,071 --> 00:48:53,906
Kevin: right, is Craft.

843
00:48:54,157 --> 00:48:54,607
Rob: Craft.

844
00:48:54,717 --> 00:48:55,167
Yes.

845
00:48:55,172 --> 00:48:58,647
It, it, it, it did seem it
was a very odd choice to do.

846
00:48:58,797 --> 00:49:04,677
But, um, we do know that Zora comes
about through Control, which is the main

847
00:49:04,677 --> 00:49:07,947
baddie in episode in season two, and that

848
00:49:08,346 --> 00:49:10,911
Kevin: right, she's part
of the sphere data stuff.

849
00:49:10,947 --> 00:49:16,302
Rob: sphere data sort of like kicks
her off into this self-awareness

850
00:49:16,362 --> 00:49:19,392
and they develop it through season
three, from what I can remember.

851
00:49:19,662 --> 00:49:23,502
And then season four, they really
explore it in quite a number of episodes.

852
00:49:23,592 --> 00:49:27,942
And it all comes to a head in this
particular episode, which is season

853
00:49:27,942 --> 00:49:30,192
four, episode seven, …But to Connect.

854
00:49:30,598 --> 00:49:32,668
Season four's main focus is Book's Planet.

855
00:49:32,698 --> 00:49:35,278
His home planet is,
uh, is being destroyed.

856
00:49:35,728 --> 00:49:39,328
And for the course of this episode,
they've been try, uh, season, they have

857
00:49:39,328 --> 00:49:45,058
been trying to find the, uh, people
responsible for this, um, seemingly,

858
00:49:45,358 --> 00:49:48,598
you know, natural occurrence, but
it has seemed to be controlled.

859
00:49:48,865 --> 00:49:50,305
There's two stories running here.

860
00:49:50,305 --> 00:49:53,845
It's all springboards from the point
that Zora's finding out all the

861
00:49:53,845 --> 00:50:00,145
information, uh, and has determined where
the location is that this all started.

862
00:50:00,265 --> 00:50:04,465
So these beings that have caused
the destruction of this planet and

863
00:50:04,465 --> 00:50:10,645
is a potential existential threat
to the reformed Federation, um,

864
00:50:11,035 --> 00:50:13,045
they need that information ASAP.

865
00:50:13,105 --> 00:50:16,765
Burnham is very worried
of Book's state of mind.

866
00:50:16,855 --> 00:50:19,345
Book desperately wants to
find out this information.

867
00:50:19,585 --> 00:50:26,665
Zora finds the location, but her decision
is to not give that information because

868
00:50:26,785 --> 00:50:31,420
it is statistically likely that Discovery
would be under threat and she could

869
00:50:31,420 --> 00:50:37,390
not threaten the lives, uh, put her
the lives of her, uh, crew in danger.

870
00:50:37,450 --> 00:50:39,130
So therefore, then the story splits.

871
00:50:39,130 --> 00:50:44,140
Burnham and Book go to the Federation to
plead their case of how is the best way to

872
00:50:44,140 --> 00:50:46,420
deal with this information when it comes.

873
00:50:46,780 --> 00:50:52,030
Um, Book obviously is has a lot of
machinations with other people, uh,

874
00:50:52,030 --> 00:50:59,140
who would like to go attack first,
whereas Burnham is from the let's do a

875
00:50:59,140 --> 00:51:01,900
diplomatic, peaceful exploration first.

876
00:51:01,900 --> 00:51:04,360
We encountered the
representative from Earth.

877
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:07,390
When Earth is the ex that
we come in and that we wanna

878
00:51:07,390 --> 00:51:09,010
try and get back to the fold.

879
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:15,850
Um, the Cardassian, slash Cardassian
human, uh, uh, uh, president goes,

880
00:51:15,850 --> 00:51:18,820
oh, I desperately want Earth to
come back into the federation.

881
00:51:18,850 --> 00:51:21,400
It's very much a case of, oh, I
want to get back with that person.

882
00:51:21,573 --> 00:51:26,025
Kevin: That president, uh, as far as we
know, is still president of the Federation

883
00:51:26,025 --> 00:51:28,815
here in, uh, in Starfleet Academy.

884
00:51:28,815 --> 00:51:28,965
And

885
00:51:29,015 --> 00:51:30,755
Rob: We, we, we believe so.

886
00:51:31,395 --> 00:51:33,765
Kevin: When the Admiral says, I'll
have to talk, speak to the president,

887
00:51:33,765 --> 00:51:34,960
that's who he's talking about.

888
00:51:35,255 --> 00:51:35,885
Rob: Exactly.

889
00:51:36,215 --> 00:51:42,755
And so, um, we then cut between Discovery
where we have, uh, David Cronenberg show

890
00:51:42,755 --> 00:51:45,695
up in all his, uh, uh, deadpan glory.

891
00:51:46,115 --> 00:51:52,265
And they are discussing their, um,
the ex, you know, the potential

892
00:51:52,505 --> 00:51:58,265
sentient ness or, or the existence of,
uh, Zora, and what does this imply?

893
00:51:58,325 --> 00:52:01,895
And every character has
their own, um, opinions.

894
00:52:01,895 --> 00:52:06,635
This is a main focus of, uh, we
see very little Tilly in this one.

895
00:52:06,815 --> 00:52:09,065
Not much Saru, a little bit of Saru.

896
00:52:09,335 --> 00:52:14,795
This is mostly the family unit of
Stamets, uh, the doctor and our two young,

897
00:52:14,885 --> 00:52:17,525
uh, human Trill, uh, lovers that have

898
00:52:17,775 --> 00:52:18,130
Kevin: Oh yes.

899
00:52:18,995 --> 00:52:22,085
Rob: Um, and this is that episode
where they split and one of

900
00:52:22,085 --> 00:52:23,585
them has to go back to Trill.

901
00:52:23,975 --> 00:52:27,305
Um, the other one stays, uh,
with um, daddy and daddy.

902
00:52:28,025 --> 00:52:32,855
Um, but Stamets has his own
prejudice towards, uh, Zora.

903
00:52:32,855 --> 00:52:37,835
But through the trial that is being
run, we find out the rules that

904
00:52:37,835 --> 00:52:44,225
Zora has been going by, um, doesn't
comply with, um, the Federation.

905
00:52:44,225 --> 00:52:48,905
However, if they go by the law of, well,
do you wanna become a member of the crew?

906
00:52:49,535 --> 00:52:50,765
He goes, yes, very much so.

907
00:52:50,795 --> 00:52:54,305
Well, if you are assigned a member, you
must follow the chain of command and

908
00:52:54,305 --> 00:52:57,095
therefore you can't just disobey an order.

909
00:52:57,185 --> 00:52:58,985
And Zora goes, well, I will do that.

910
00:52:59,525 --> 00:53:04,205
And the whole point of she feels a part of
the crew and she doesn't want the crew to

911
00:53:04,205 --> 00:53:08,735
die, is something that, uh, and everyone
believes that David Cronenberg character's

912
00:53:08,735 --> 00:53:12,125
gonna sort of like be the one, the bad guy
going, oh, he is gonna destroy, delete.

913
00:53:12,125 --> 00:53:16,835
And he's there going, no, this is a, you
know, a life form and make them a part

914
00:53:16,835 --> 00:53:18,575
of the crew and they'll be an asset, and,

915
00:53:18,575 --> 00:53:22,250
Kevin: It is natural culmination of
the, the trend we're talking about,

916
00:53:22,250 --> 00:53:27,770
that the, the, ultimately a computer
that has gained sentience must choose

917
00:53:27,770 --> 00:53:29,060
to become a member of the crew.

918
00:53:29,230 --> 00:53:31,615
Rob: And there's stuff in
there about nature, nurture.

919
00:53:31,615 --> 00:53:35,485
There's stuff about if you have the
potential to destroy, but don't do it.

920
00:53:35,935 --> 00:53:39,655
Uh, so like Saru, they're going,
I have the, I have the capacity

921
00:53:40,045 --> 00:53:42,505
to, to harm, but I don't do it.

922
00:53:42,505 --> 00:53:43,435
I make that choice.

923
00:53:43,435 --> 00:53:48,400
And just because Zora is, you know, has
the potential to be dangerous and blow up

924
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,840
the ship or whatever with their decision,
doesn't mean that they automatically will.

925
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:57,160
So Stamets has a turning point
when he realizes Zora's choices

926
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,230
of decisions come from a place of
compassion and, and product, you

927
00:54:02,230 --> 00:54:04,000
know, protect, protectiveness.

928
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:11,380
Um, it's, it's interesting because this
is an age old science fiction trope.

929
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:12,460
What is human?

930
00:54:12,490 --> 00:54:13,570
What is humanity?

931
00:54:13,780 --> 00:54:15,885
It's perfectly represented in Spock.

932
00:54:15,940 --> 00:54:17,890
It's perfectly represented in Data.

933
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,260
It's perfectly represented in the Doctor.

934
00:54:20,500 --> 00:54:24,685
We have repeated this over and over
again, even in odo to some small extent,

935
00:54:24,865 --> 00:54:31,240
but from a mechanical, electronic,
you know, robot type of setup.

936
00:54:31,630 --> 00:54:35,710
But it's interesting here because with
what we have done before in the past, we

937
00:54:35,710 --> 00:54:38,950
have a face to put and a, and a figure.

938
00:54:39,310 --> 00:54:42,550
But Zora is just this disembodied voice.

939
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:47,080
And it's a, it's an interesting balance
to, do you still have that connection

940
00:54:47,410 --> 00:54:52,930
to something, or is it, does it seem,
for me, it felt a little bit forced.

941
00:54:52,930 --> 00:54:56,740
I'm there going, I don't have anything,
and yeah, I don't have anything to grab

942
00:54:56,740 --> 00:54:59,980
onto, uh, this, this disparate voice.

943
00:54:59,980 --> 00:55:03,160
It's something that happened with,
with, I'm bringing up again, Red Dwarf.

944
00:55:03,220 --> 00:55:06,280
Originally Red Dwarf was just
meant to have Holly, the ship's

945
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,850
computer just be a, a, a, a voice.

946
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:13,360
But, uh, the voice actor, uh,
Norman Lovett, bless him, he said,

947
00:55:13,450 --> 00:55:14,890
well, I wanna appear on screen.

948
00:55:15,010 --> 00:55:17,260
So he was trying to do the
whole convincing, no, you need

949
00:55:17,260 --> 00:55:20,410
to have a face for the voice
so you could see interactions.

950
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,860
So his selfishness to get his face
on screen actually worked in its

951
00:55:23,860 --> 00:55:28,630
favor, because that made it more of
a connection between the crew and,

952
00:55:28,660 --> 00:55:30,420
um, and the voice of the computer.

953
00:55:30,810 --> 00:55:35,340
So it's hard for me to really connect
to Zora here, even though we get a

954
00:55:35,340 --> 00:55:41,370
holo grammatic representation of her
in a wedding dress in, uh, a Calypso.

955
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:47,520
Um, but yes, that was not only
interacting, but arguing and having a

956
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:52,260
philosophical discord with a, a computer
about whether they exist or not.

957
00:55:53,290 --> 00:55:53,930
Kevin: Lovely find.

958
00:55:53,950 --> 00:55:55,480
Great to be reminded of that one.

959
00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:01,585
This whole episode is, is smacked
bang in the middle of this issue of

960
00:56:01,585 --> 00:56:03,865
is the, is the computer sentient?

961
00:56:03,865 --> 00:56:05,245
And if so, what does that mean?

962
00:56:05,395 --> 00:56:09,450
Rob: And it, this does come to a, it's
sort of like the, the focal point.

963
00:56:09,450 --> 00:56:13,740
So we've had Zora explored in season
three and elements of this season,

964
00:56:13,740 --> 00:56:18,390
but this is a point where we go, okay,
let's, let's discuss it, not just have it

965
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:20,430
there in the background or a part of it.

966
00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:23,490
Let's define what Zora is.

967
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,520
Um, and there were parts of
it that I quite had liked.

968
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,430
You know, there's always a drag factor
for me when it comes to Discovery,

969
00:56:29,725 --> 00:56:31,975
Kevin: High praise for
you from a Discovery

970
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:32,790
Rob: I know

971
00:56:32,905 --> 00:56:37,135
Kevin: gonna ask, jumping back like
just a couple of years now, uh, in

972
00:56:37,135 --> 00:56:42,385
Star Trek time, uh, well, in, in real
time to, to Discovery season four.

973
00:56:42,595 --> 00:56:45,655
I'm curious, what was the
contrast you felt there?

974
00:56:45,715 --> 00:56:50,845
Um, how, how different is it from
something like Starfleet Academy?

975
00:56:51,615 --> 00:56:55,065
Rob: Yeah, I think this episode
in particular felt a lot more like

976
00:56:55,065 --> 00:57:01,965
Star Trek because it had the two
separate A and B plots and, and so

977
00:57:01,965 --> 00:57:04,785
Burnham's role was not as prominent.

978
00:57:05,325 --> 00:57:09,135
The stuff with her in Book was played
out well because there was a great

979
00:57:09,135 --> 00:57:16,185
moment where, um, Book spoke for
the more aggressive strategy and the

980
00:57:16,185 --> 00:57:22,485
President said, we need someone to,
to argue the other side, and Burnham

981
00:57:22,485 --> 00:57:23,745
was the only one who could do it.

982
00:57:23,745 --> 00:57:26,025
So for me, that was a great play of.

983
00:57:26,605 --> 00:57:27,795
Burnham as a character.

984
00:57:28,065 --> 00:57:32,835
And it wasn't, it wasn't, it
wasn't indulging that, which

985
00:57:32,835 --> 00:57:34,095
always kind of annoyed me.

986
00:57:34,125 --> 00:57:35,715
This was a good, balanced episode.

987
00:57:35,715 --> 00:57:40,545
There was so much stuff for Stamets
to do, so much stuff for, um, uh,

988
00:57:40,605 --> 00:57:45,095
uh, his kids and their relationship
and their connection with Zora.

989
00:57:45,405 --> 00:57:51,345
and also the larger play of the
Federation in the far future.

990
00:57:51,555 --> 00:57:55,425
So for me it was, again, those
elements of Discovery, which we

991
00:57:55,425 --> 00:58:01,305
still bleeding into modern Star Trek
of Star Trekky concepts, but more

992
00:58:01,425 --> 00:58:05,445
emotional character driven teen drama.

993
00:58:05,715 --> 00:58:07,155
We had those there.

994
00:58:07,975 --> 00:58:12,385
Kevin: I feel by this point they had
corrected for the, it's all about,

995
00:58:12,805 --> 00:58:17,965
um, Michael Burnham stuff, but now
they were off in the far future.

996
00:58:17,965 --> 00:58:23,905
And, and for me, this is the era where
Discovery was failing by having, um,

997
00:58:25,255 --> 00:58:33,505
abstract, grand, galaxy ending threats
as the, the plot every single episode.

998
00:58:33,505 --> 00:58:38,395
And it made it really hard in a 10
episode series to invest in the characters

999
00:58:38,395 --> 00:58:43,570
because we were never getting any
emotionally impactful, uh, character

1000
00:58:43,570 --> 00:58:49,420
building, uh, stories with emotional
stakes for these individuals, as opposed

1001
00:58:49,420 --> 00:58:51,040
to the galaxy they were a part of.

1002
00:58:51,550 --> 00:58:58,150
Um, and, uh, I, I don't know if any of
that was, was in evidence in this episode

1003
00:58:58,150 --> 00:59:00,280
for you or if it, this was an exception.

1004
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,455
Rob: It was definitely a case of, um.

1005
00:59:05,310 --> 00:59:11,280
We saw more of the rest of the crew,
but it still a specific type of crew.

1006
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,430
Like there were members of the Discovery
crew who were there from episode

1007
00:59:14,430 --> 00:59:16,770
one, and we didn't see them at all.

1008
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:24,990
But, um, our young human, uh, symbiont
host and, uh, and their Trill, you

1009
00:59:24,990 --> 00:59:29,850
know, partner were brought in only
last season, I believe in season three.

1010
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:31,890
So they get a lot of screen time.

1011
00:59:31,950 --> 00:59:32,430
And I'm there

1012
00:59:32,770 --> 00:59:36,280
Kevin: It was really bizarre that we
don't know enough about our characters.

1013
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,910
Let's add more characters,
solution in Discovery.

1014
00:59:40,290 --> 00:59:43,470
Rob: And they're playing it like a, oh,
we've known these characters for so long,

1015
00:59:43,470 --> 00:59:46,680
but at the end of the episode, one of them
goes back to Trill and I'm there going,

1016
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,740
well, we're not building up anything here.

1017
00:59:49,740 --> 00:59:51,360
There's no consistency.

1018
00:59:51,540 --> 00:59:57,630
Um, I felt very much like uh, Book's
cat who doesn't like, it de definitely

1019
00:59:57,630 --> 01:00:01,590
doesn't like Burnham and so it's gone
from, you know, out and out hissing

1020
01:00:01,590 --> 01:00:04,050
to just uh, you know, silent disdain.

1021
01:00:04,380 --> 01:00:06,480
So there was a lot in there I'd liked.

1022
01:00:06,540 --> 01:00:11,490
But yeah, the whole structure of Discovery
is, you know, 'cause I'd only gone to

1023
01:00:11,490 --> 01:00:15,330
episode one of season four and I watched
that and I went, I can't do this.

1024
01:00:15,450 --> 01:00:21,600
Um, so to come into, you know,
six episodes later, um, there

1025
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:22,710
was some good stuff in there.

1026
01:00:22,740 --> 01:00:23,700
There was some good stuff in there.

1027
01:00:23,730 --> 01:00:26,250
I have like the odd
occasional Discovery episode.

1028
01:00:26,430 --> 01:00:28,830
We did all of season five together

1029
01:00:29,180 --> 01:00:29,750
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

1030
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,040
Rob: and I didn't complain all the time.

1031
01:00:32,935 --> 01:00:34,645
Kevin: Thank you for your service, Rob.

1032
01:00:34,765 --> 01:00:39,535
Uh, I it be odd watching one of
these episodes out of context because

1033
01:00:39,785 --> 01:00:43,590
Rob: It was a lot of me trying
to catch up, um, fill the gaps

1034
01:00:43,620 --> 01:00:47,700
and, um, sort of like finish off
sentences because they were missing.

1035
01:00:47,790 --> 01:00:52,020
Um, they go, okay, so this means
this here, something's happened here.

1036
01:00:52,350 --> 01:00:56,340
Um, but I saw the start of
like Saru with his, uh, soon

1037
01:00:56,340 --> 01:01:00,090
to be, uh, uh, uh, later wife.

1038
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,500
So there are elements, elements there
I'm seeing and go, all right, so the

1039
01:01:04,980 --> 01:01:08,580
'cause by the end of this season,
Earth joined the federation again.

1040
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,390
And so there's parts of going, all
right, I can see how it all goes.

1041
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,600
It doesn't inspire me to go and watch
the rest of it, but I can see it.

1042
01:01:16,775 --> 01:01:17,065
Kevin: Cool.

1043
01:01:17,695 --> 01:01:20,425
Awesome, well, um, onto the next one.

1044
01:01:20,585 --> 01:01:24,220
I, I, I don't know, uh, I hope, I guess.

1045
01:01:24,820 --> 01:01:28,000
What I'm hoping for next week
is a Family type episode.

1046
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:35,260
A let's come back and take stock
and heal from this, this thing

1047
01:01:35,260 --> 01:01:37,150
that has happened to us all.

1048
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:38,700
Rob: We did have our team separated.

1049
01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:41,460
We had the bridge crew,
we had the, uh, away team.

1050
01:01:41,580 --> 01:01:43,950
So have them reconnect,

1051
01:01:44,050 --> 01:01:44,530
Kevin: Yeah.

1052
01:01:44,530 --> 01:01:45,970
Reconnect and compare notes.

1053
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:51,360
Rob: Uh, compare notes and heal
wounds and see if they can come

1054
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:56,340
out stronger and, uh, and, and, uh,
and more fierce than ever before.