Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
My name's Joe Loh Attraction.
Gonna talk attraction.
Sam, why is it often capricious and fleeting?
Hmm?
What things influence or even determine.
Our perception of appearance and attractiveness, is it just purely
biological and all of our instincts are 100% correct or, or unavoidably coming
from our nature in some basic sense?
Or is all of that powerfully shaped by culture and marketing and we have to
deconstruct our experience of attraction in order to get to a more real place?
Yeah, I think this comes out of the last episode towards the end.
I think I said something like I've always been trying to date, um, Thurman from
Pulp Fiction because I was, you know, 16 at the time and actually my first partner
when I was about 20, 'cause I was a bit of a late bloomer, had a real, um, Thurman
haircut, kind of dark hair kind of look.
I think we both did very well.
With our first significance.
Yeah.
So I mean, in terms of attraction, I was joking with you before the
show that what we're just gonna talk about boobs, boobs and bums.
We can talk about boobs and bums.
We can talk boobs and bums.
Yeah.
Well I used to be more of a boob man than I became more of a bum man.
Uh, but I think what you're saying is it's a lot more complex than that.
Of course.
Yeah.
Because I, yeah.
I also want to be sort of tortured and pushed away and Well, yeah.
All that stuff.
Absolutely.
'cause you're leaving something really important out.
The real question we're asking here is not just, why is attraction?
Why do we all experience attraction as a bit of a mystery
that we struggle to explain?
And people just end up saying things like, well, I don't know.
There's just something about him, her, them.
That I can't define and or I have a type and that's it.
And people just sort of surrender a lot of the time with it.
Um, which, you know, but there are conventions of beauty, right?
But there are conventions.
And where do the conventions come from these days?
2025.
Uh, I mean, innumerable sources, but to put it simply, it comes
from the blob, the algorithm, you know, that we're all swimming in.
Yeah.
Like, and that's determined by now by millions and millions
and millions of people.
But it's also those classic things of like, someone who's at Attract,
considered a universally attractive, actually just has incredibly
symmetrical features and all those like, oh, I'm glad you, I'm glad you
mentioned symmetry, because Yeah, sure.
There's a level of scientific validation for the idea.
We find symmetrical faces more attractive.
But do you remember the most famously asymmetrical face of,
say the early to mid nineties?
Shannon Doherty.
Oh, okay.
Go on.
I rate it.
Yeah.
Right at Shannon Doherty asymmetry.
Yeah.
Not bad actually.
Interesting.
Yeah.
But there is a conventional beauty where I, I could say that person is beautiful,
male or female, and you would know, probably know what I'm talking about.
I'm not gonna think you're crazy 99% of the time, like
Brad Pitt in Thelma and Louise.
No, I was, I actually, I'll say that's a young Brad Pitt Sure.
Meet Joe Black.
You can't go wrong with Brad Pitt.
You can't.
But leaving aside whatever about his personal life, but I'm gonna
say Brad Pitt in Fury The Tank one.
Okay.
You, you gotta be obscure for me, mate.
I don't know what that, how come the World War II movie?
No, I haven't seen it.
He's in the tank and it's pretty tragic and heroic and there's funny moments, but
he would have a very symmetrical face.
Oh yeah.
Like there's a reason.
Yes.
And there's obviously the body as well, and Yes.
Like when I mentioned last night, I No, but there's a dash.
There's a way he moves.
There's a way he speaks.
Yeah.
He could be half as attractive and I would still find him hot.
Yeah.
There's a lot of that.
Yeah.
Uh, someone, uh, I work with said they don't go on dating apps because You can't,
the picture does not give you the hotness.
They, they need to.
Um, well, they said they can't go on dating apps because they need to
see how someone moves in the world.
I have the kind of beauty that moves, said Arnie DeFranco.
Yeah.
And, and I'm not someone out there in a day like my strongest, my strongest suit
isn't just a still photograph of me.
That's not my strongest suit.
It's not, it's not horrific.
It's not a deal breaker for everyone, but it's not where, like, whereas
how I move in the world, my, my natural charisma that I can have.
And Charm has always been my strong suit and my ability to talk.
Yeah, yeah.
Where I can't get across the still, the still photograph
does not capture the Ty Yak.
Absolutely not.
Like I, I can't get that across.
And so dating apps, I'm already pushing shit uphill.
No, no.
You've got a handicap.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think most people do ultimately.
Have a handicap when it comes to a two dimensional representation of what
they can offer another human being.
But I admired my colleague to say for saying, I can't tell if I'm
attracted from a photo, therefore I just won't use dating apps.
Okay.
Why do you admire that?
Because for 10 years I've wished I could just decide to not use dating
apps and never go back to them.
Oh, so you you admire the clarity and the decisiveness of it?
Yeah, and that's someone who's much younger than me.
You'd think she would be dating and getting out in the world and
whatever, but she's happy just to chill in between partners and not
be window shopping on a dating app.
'cause she knows that a still image can't tell her what she needs.
She doesn't give her the information she needs.
So she, she has to get out in the world and meet people and
see how they move in the world.
That's right.
Can we, sounds like she's got a, a degree of secure attachment going on as well.
She's not desperate to like fill the, the parental.
You know, mommy, daddy void.
someone come and tuck me in and make me feel better.
Well, not to get too Freudian on you, Sam, so early in the show, but
is it all just about the parents?
Well, do you all, do we all just wanna read it?
How does that work?
Because like, photos of my mom in her twenties mm-hmm.
She was an incredibly attractive woman and it raises some odd
feelings in a, in, in a sun.
It's true.
It doesn't, I don't, I don't even know if I'd go that far.
Maybe it's just so wrong that I wouldn't even allow myself to think that.
But she's objectively was a very attractive woman and probably
still is for a 74 or whatever.
Oh, no, no.
I, I, ab a hundred percent.
I, I would, I would date your mom.
There you go.
Wow.
Okay.
She's also a very difficult woman, Sam.
Yes, I'm aware of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I think.
Actually say she's already stopped listening to the show because we
bagged out the boomers too much.
So I was about to say all my g all my partners have been difficult, but no, I've
been the difficult one, let's face it.
So I probably de, I probably deserve to be with someone difficult, honestly.
So do you have a model in your head of attraction that you are Yes.
That you've always been gunning for?
Do you have a No, but it's strange.
Do you have a nineties equivalent of, I, I think the ones for
me are like Monica Lucci.
Great.
Classic and, um, Thurman.
And then more recently, probably like an Anne Hathaway.
Um, interesting.
You raise Anne Hathaway.
Yeah.
'cause I'm halfway there.
I think.
I think she's amazing.
Did you see her as Catwoman?
Yes.
But it, wow.
For me it was a misfire.
In fact, the whole Catwoman thing never works for me.
There's something too contrived about it.
It's like I'm supposed, oh, it works for me, Sam.
I'm supposed to like it.
It works for me on a very base level.
Now I'm gonna, no, but here's what I'll say.
I think the Catwoman thing would mean far more to me.
If it was a real person in the room and I have like a particular person
in mind, right, that would do far more for me than Michelle Pfeiffer
or Anne Hathaway or any of the others that have, that have played that role.
Another one was nineties Drew Barrymore.
That was a real, like, she had a cutesy thing.
Drew Barrymore was like, mana, pixie dream girl.
Yeah.
It just, it just helped me understand that's how I came to understand that I
was clearly attracted to women and there were, I wanted to grow up and, you know,
like, but I, I didn't, I was a dorky gorky teenager who didn't have a girlfriend.
Sure.
You were late.
We were both late starters.
But I could look at, you know, drew Barrymore on the cover of a
magazine and be like, oh my God, I'm having so many feelings right now.
I found her cute.
I liked her in a kind of, I subconsciously sensed this person is damaged and
crazy like me, and that made me like her, well, that would go as a friend.
I think I really wanted to be her friend.
I thought she was cool and I would like to hang out with her.
I think, I don't think I felt strongly physically attracted to her.
I think damaged and crazy has been, yeah, there was a, this is like not gonna work.
It's not gonna work as a joke 'cause it's like a third hand joke.
But someone told me about a standup.
Yeah.
Who said, and this, I really identified with this.
Mm-hmm.
I can be in a room of beautiful people at a party.
Yeah.
And I'll be attracted to the, the weird woman who's sitting in the
corner like cutting themselves.
Yes, sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, and that's been my whole, apart from the one big exception of, I've
tried to be the interesting one.
And then when I'm not trying Yeah.
I mean, my dating history is the Yeah.
Dark and fucked up women, apart from the one woman I had children with who
was a very happy, bright, sunny person.
Mostly not anymore.
Yeah.
'cause she had kids with you.
Yeah, probably so.
It's not her fault.
Yeah.
It's probably not as light and breezy as when I met her.
Oh God.
What did I mean, aren't we all be broken and burdened by the
weight of the world these days?
But yeah.
What did I do to that poor woman?
I mean, something similar to what I did.
Like just Yeah.
Just be an absolute needy fucking mess.
Yeah.
And unaccountable for a lot of behavior and then gradually sort it out.
But once it's too late, you know?
Yeah.
But with her, in terms of attraction, it was like a Lara
Croft kind of, it was instant.
There's like a Lara Croft.
Yes.
Kind of like overwhelming physical thing that was just very simple and
kept me going for many, many years.
Totally.
You know, and not, not to be weird about it, but I think of all the
people you've been associated with, I think the strongest choice.
Like, you know, I like, I think you made a good.
Choice.
Yeah.
And we have two beautiful children, so there you go.
Yes.
And I don't just mean the personality, I mean, I understand what you're
referring to because you asked me earlier about, well, you know, did I have an
ideal when I was say 16 or whatever?
And yes, I did.
Uh, and it's, it involves brown hair, curly brown hair,
and, uh, not, not too thin.
Well, which is a purely a subjective statement, right?
Yeah.
But, um, but that has changed over the years.
It's, well, I think I had a very shallow feel field or, uh, shallow
aesthetic in more than one sense.
It didn't, as in, I, I didn't have a full appreciation of all the
layers of a person that com, that contribute to attractiveness when you
actually really assess it properly.
Uh, or rather don't assess it, just experience it rather than.
Filtering and judging, uh, which is not an easy thing to do, but
as someone with a background in meditation, in theory you can get there.
but at the time it was also shallow in the sense that, you know, it was superficial.
It was just more or less a particular look.
But it, it was also, it also had a flatness.
I didn't have that many reference points in popular culture
for what I was interested in.
Yeah.
And I remember, I remember saying to a friend, I, am I
supposed to think this is hot?
And maybe it was a picture of Al McPherson or, I dunno, Jenny
Garth or someone like that, right.
And I'm just like, it's not moving the needle for me.
Like, is there something wrong with me?
I remember people talking about who they had crushes on, on tv, and I'm like.
I don't feel that way about anyone.
So who was the first one from Popular Culture that clicked for you?
Oh, man.
That's such a good question.
Uh, I think yes, Catherine's Eda Jones in the in, in the Darling
buds of May Zea Jones Class Act.
Oh, that's a, that's a, yeah, that's a refined taste.
Sam, thank you.
I'm a man.
I'm a, I'm a gentleman, I believe, but yeah, I think Monica Lucci
falls in the same category of like a gentleman's choice.
Oh yeah.
Just, just classy.
Just a couple of classy.
It's a refined selection.
That's right.
And I like to think that I'm a refined selection, right.
That I'm not for everybody.
No, you're more of a rough diamond.
Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And not everybody wants a rough diamond.
A lot of people want.
A car that'll start every time and get you from A to B reliably and,
and, uh, have conventional appeal.
But did and yeah, and, and, and a bit of, um, what do you call it?
A bit of prestige.
That's what some people want.
Did you have the same experience in your twenties though, of
having had a gorky teenage years?
Of course.
Not doing too well with the ladies.
No, no.
I had no idea.
And then suddenly being like, how am I with this incredibly attractive woman?
Yes.
How did I pull this off one?
Am I, you know?
Yes.
Um, like, and I still, to this day at 45, don't exactly know.
I have some more conscious idea of what my charms might be, but it still
just, well, you should have, yeah.
It's still just like.
One of the few benefits of middle age is like a greater level of
self-awareness and self-acceptance.
Right.
You know, you don't have to wonder whether you're good enough as a person anymore.
Like just, just it.
It is what it is.
If you're not good enough, you'll never be good enough.
If you're good enough, if you're good enough, like just, I keep
going on dates, Sam, and just going too deep on the first date.
Oh, that's a like getting into like trauma stuff.
Exactly.
That's exactly what I would do.
Oh yeah.
It's, um, can I advise you, I'm sitting here extremely single while
we have this attraction discussion.
I'm glad you've mentioned this, right?
Because two things we, we need to, like, this conversation is
different when you're single, right?
That's the first thing.
But the second thing is the real reason we're talking about this, the hook
for me is at the end of that last pod you said, we started talking about,
I dunno how we got onto it, right?
But dip back into the last episode to refresh your memory if you want.
It's in that last five minutes, 10 minutes, and then.
I you said, am I destined to be alone because I get put off too easily,
basically was the thing you said?
Mm.
Will I just continually fuck it up with perfectly good people?
Because I just don't seem to have any control.
I,
I don't seem to be able to live by a realistic standard.
And the woman I was talking about, Sam mm-hmm.
I sent the episode to her.
Mm-hmm.
And she's not really talking to me at the moment.
Mm-hmm.
But she gave it a heart, as in she might have actually listened.
So yeah.
Maybe even this episode is a way to communicate with that person and that
person as well as Oh, you lovely audience.
Of course.
Absolutely.
And of course, that person would 100% understand the pain of feeling as though
that that true attractiveness is a complex thing made up of lots of things.
And then it gets boiled down to something far too simple and reductive,
which does so many people dirty.
You know what I think about sometimes it's unfair.
You know what I think about sometimes, Sam?
Yeah.
It's the late sixties and you're John Lennon.
Mm-hmm.
That pretty much means you can sleep with pretty much anyone you want.
Sure.
And, and you choose Yoko Ono.
Yes.
I think about that sometimes.
I think it's a, I think it's where he wanted and that's,
and, and in a positive way.
I think you just found someone who you thought was so fucking cool.
Yes.
That even though you could have dated a supermodel if they were
even invented in late sixties.
Yes.
You chose No, they had Twiggy and the Yeah.
You, yeah.
You're the ultimate poet on the planet, right?
Yeah.
Apart from maybe Bob Dylan.
Sure.
And your Sure.
You, you're the ultimate rockstar and all of that.
And you choose this unusual Mick Jagger slight Yeah.
You know, whatever, whatever you wanna say about, I'm not saying that
Yoko is ugly, I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying he could have gone towards a conventional and he did beauty and
taken his pick and he chose Yoko Oro.
Why?
Yeah, because they vibed.
And when I think about this person who I sent the podcast to mm-hmm.
We vibed, you know?
Yes.
Like we were hanging out was fantastic.
It was really special.
And we just got each other and all that stuff.
That's right.
But I balked and said, I can't do this.
'cause I wasn't sure about the attraction.
Oh yeah.
Look, I, and I'm gonna be honest with you, I've judged you for this.
Uh, but the truth is, and we'll get into this, that I too have experienced
this, of suddenly finding someone not.
At all when I felt quite the opposite, not long before the ick.
Oh, that's what the kids talk about is the ick.
The ick.
And just catching people in the sudden wrong light, the wrong angle.
Oh.
And just losing it.
I lost, I lost another great woman back in 2020.
Mm-hmm.
When I caught her on a strange angle in a bathroom.
Oh, I lost, yeah.
Another great woman when I saw a photo of her parents and thought, wow, if
you end up looking like that, I can't stick around for man, another 30 years.
Okay.
Yeah.
Tick, tick, tick.
Like, just, just moments.
And then the kids are really into the ick.
They, they just, they talk about it.
Once they get the ick, they're out.
And do you know what?
I identify with a lot of moments from like, you know, crossover youth culture
from like the last few years in fact.
You know, I don't wanna boast, but I feel like I'm on a wavelength to a degree.
Right.
Because there's like that 2020 year gap, and I feel like a lot of the shit
they're talking about is do familiar with.
I go, okay, with my 16-year-old kid.
Yeah, I can go.
Okay.
You, we, we, we can see eye to eye.
Does she talk about the ick?
No, I don't talk to her about dating.
No, no, no, no.
But does she ever No, no, no.
Think of anything.
No, no.
Yeah.
Let's be fair.
Let's, that's, let's, let's avoid it.
But did have you heard her mention the ick?
No, because I remember seeing the, when when I talk about kids, I'm
talking about people who are like 27.
Oh yeah, no, of course, of course.
Yeah.
And I think, but I will say this, that one of the things from youth discourse
that I've most strongly related to in recent years is the ick, right?
Because I can remember feeling that way almost all the time about everyone,
no matter how perfect you feel the ick all the time about everyone.
Well, no, anyone that I was close to, right?
Yeah.
So the, the ick is only strong.
If you are already close.
So that's a really important thing.
It's basically, yeah, I think that probably the most foundational piece
of like life experience I can offer here is I don't get particularly
turned on or turned off by strangers.
It's, it's when it's up close that the strongest attraction and
the strongest repulsion occurs.
Yeah.
Up close.
I mean, like the irony for me is I can put myself together pretty well these days.
Mm-hmm.
With a couple of different outfits and look okay on the street.
Yep.
But if you want to catch me like behind closed doors, it's not that
hard to catch me on a pretty bad angle.
And so what you are saying is, and get the ick, like if women acted the
way you did, you'd never get any.
Well, I've got a friend who's a perfectionist about women and
he goes to the gym four times a week, runs and eats her.
The vegan diet.
So he is willing to earn it.
You are saying he owns it, right?
He earns it, he earns the perfectionism.
Mm-hmm.
And then he dates more conventionally attractive women than who I date, but
I don't want to be in the, does he have average tastes, if you see what I mean?
Is he like a bit, is he a bit normative?
Is it a bit narrow?
Yeah.
It's, it's, the photos I've seen of women who's dating tend to
be conventionally attractive.
Yes.
Whereas I am more drawn to that woman in the corner cutting themselves.
Sure.
So I, I want conventionally attractive plus really dark and fucked up.
Mm.
Like, but maybe not even that convention.
Maybe unconventionally attractive mm-hmm.
And dark and fucked up.
Mm-hmm.
And then that's who I actually date for the most part.
Yeah.
You know, and this person who, I can't name who, who, who might or
might not listen to this episode.
Mm.
It's probably in that category a bit, you know, traumatized a bit.
Mm-hmm.
Got some demons and experienced rejection and.
Yeah.
And being on, being on let's, you know, let's say I felt when I was
16, 18, 20, actually, no, not 20, but when I was 16, 18, I felt that this
world of attraction was very unfair.
I felt that it was weighted firmly against me, that the prevailing
standards did not include me whatsoever.
And this might sound strange coming from like a pale skinned, uh, tall
male, but like, I felt that I was too skinny, far too skinny, like
not a little bit far too much.
And I also felt that I, that I lacked the sort of tone and athleticism
that was the convention, and I didn't have the right skin tone.
Like I didn't, you know, tan particularly easily.
and I was not really at home with sporting sort of activities, which I think were.
Pretty much hand in hand with conventional male attractiveness in the nineties.
And I don't just mean the Gods like Michael Jordan, I just mean conventional
Australian attractiveness and masculinity included a level of sporting prowess and
you know, having a tight rig, I think.
Yeah.
Is that where it still is?
Yeah, I'd say so.
Yeah.
Like for the mainstream?
Yeah, for the Normies.
I mean, I watched a complete unknown last night and Timothy
Shama say Surname Shaima.
Yeah.
Timothy Shaima is a skinny, skinny guy in that movie and he's like the
hottest guy on the planet right now.
So maybe it's shifted.
Well, yeah, someone said he is, and a bunch of people believed it, but, but
I think, I think he's universally cons.
I mean, I'm said I'm not gonna rob anyone of their agency,
but are they actually frothing?
I dunno.
It's like, were people actually frothing for Damon Alban Like, yes,
but is it also a mass hysteria thing?
Yes, it's a bit of both.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's like, oh, so you're saying some, you're saying we can't actually
decide who we're attracted to.
We're just told who told, who we're attracted to.
Okay.
So some of it's incredibly conscious and overt, like you will find this person hot.
Like there, there's a lot of that sort of signaling that goes on.
Then there's some much more subtle stuff that goes on, uh, you know,
sort of skinner and positive and negative reinforcement that goes on.
And then there's stuff which like superficially passes for dating and
relationship advice, which is also normative and is helping to define the
parameters of attraction to a degree.
Right.
So not image-based, like word-based stuff, which is influencing us and
we're also being influenced by.
Things that are not, are only tangentially related to like the appearance of human
beings, such as design and interior design, but, and the kind of house
people live in and the car they drive.
There's like so many layers to this, but isn't it, whether they drive a
car or not as a man is, is it, is it uncaught if a man doesn't drive?
You know, it's, there's all these layers to it and some of it's economic, your
ability to provide some of it's prestige.
Does this, is this person admired and respected by others but isn't others?
But isn't the ick more vis visceral than that, isn't it?
The I is on so many levels.
The IIC isn't the ick.
Like, I've caught you in a bad angle.
I, okay now I can't see the same anymore.
That's sometimes it's a visual.
I've a few of those.
Sometimes it's a visual, but other times it's no.
There's no visual data here that's putting me off.
Yeah.
But there's behavioral data that's me off.
But it's like this guy can't pick me up in his car 'cause
he doesn't have his license.
He's hot.
That's been your story till recently.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
There there was a girl who was into me and I was into her and she was
like, but I'm an old fashioned girl.
You need to pick me up in your car and take me on a date.
And I'm like, that doesn't sound like the kind of person you would date.
Uh, absolutely not.
It was a weird situation.
It was a hospitality situation.
Oh yeah.
But here's the thing.
You know what this person is really worth talking about?
Because it's one of these things.
That I was drawn to her in spite of myself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So is that in fact an auth, more authentic attraction than
the like, this feels right.
This ticks all my boxes.
This is very me.
I actually think, yeah, that's that real raw.
It's that raw.
Like, dammit, there's something about it we've gotta get together.
But I just find her really annoying.
Yeah.
They're the best.
Put like a few times, and she found me intensely annoying too.
Yeah.
A few nights with that person is wonderful, I think.
But not a relationship.
No.
I often think, did it actually.
Would've gotten to a really good place because we annoyed the absolute shit out
of each other and would fight at work.
Oh, that's hot.
It is kind of, I'm getting, yeah, getting a bit steamy just thinking about it.
Me too.
And she would, she would, I know, seriously, can I indulge this?
So it's the, it's the year of our Lord, 2005 or six maybe.
And I'm working at the, the Cumberland Resort in lawn, in the conference center.
And this person's also working there, and I think they were also working at another
restaurant occasionally that I worked at.
So it was like very much a just loose hospitality rats around lawn.
Um, there was a lot of bed hopping.
I was not, I tended to be just a monogamist.
Um, but this person was, I would say, you know, definitely easily an eight, right?
Physically.
But then I would get, I at one stage would've given her a one for
personality and like personal politics.
But then where I actually ended up is.
I actually think her per personality was actually oddly even more engaging than
her appearance in the, in the long run.
And so she would say these incredibly conservative, like she grew up
in like a fairly straight laced, buttoned up, conservative sort of
suburb with high social prestige.
This is so steamy.
She's like just wrong side of the tracks.
Look, she went to the right schools.
Yeah.
And you are just this wild Harry Krishna.
She could not work me out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was not like any of the dudes that she would ever choose to spend time with.
Yeah.
And vice versa.
Yeah.
I'm like, on paper, you annoy the crap outta me.
And in reality you do and you express these incredibly.
Backward, profoundly un feminist sentiments.
Like, I wanna be treated like a princess.
I want a man to pick me.
That's a whole movement on the apps now you realize, oh my
God, she was ahead of her time.
Yeah, that's like tread wives and also just women who Yes.
Uh, want you to book the date and make all the, make all the decisions.
Do you know what?
No, I'm not.
That's, I can't tell you how common that is on dating yesterday.
I'm not gonna fault that you make some decisions.
God damnit.
No, but you tell I'm not, I'm not against that.
You do it all.
No, it's, it's kind of creepy.
It's kind of very like 1950s.
Mm.
I'm helpless.
It's that vibe.
It's lazy.
Come on.
We've had however many decades of feminism can't we just work out together, which
like venue we're going to for a date.
can't we have a back and forth?
Do you really need me to take the reins on this?
Uh, I think, okay, put it this way.
Sometimes you just want someone to decide what we're having for
dinner because you're tired.
Yeah, that's fine.
Right?
It's hot when someone else just sorts shit out.
Sometimes.
Can we agree?
Like, is it crazy?
But, but if it's taken to extremes, I want you to That's true.
I was at dinner last night.
Yeah.
With someone who knows a lot about food, Uhhuh and three other people.
Uh, yeah, there was three o or the rest of us.
Yeah.
And she went up and ordered all the food.
Yeah.
And that was No, no, that was, I'm hot.
That was hot.
That is a good strong's.
A strong move.
I'm into that.
But no, it's, um, yeah, it's part of a, how many people, if you ever
go on a dating app, you'll see it.
Sam, like how many did she order?
Four?
There was four of us in total.
Sorry.
Huge move to just order for something.
I made that a bit convoluted.
But, but anyway.
Go, go, go.
Yeah.
I mean, anyway, go on.
If it's, it's not innocent, it's actually.
oh no, it's a posture, it's a cynical posture.
And the more extreme, is that what you're saying?
Version?
Yeah.
They tend to be anti-vaxxers.
Oh no.
And they tend and they wanna be in their feminine polarity, want in by
embrace, embrace their divine feminine.
Yeah.
And you to be in your masculine polarity, which means, and
they also don't get vaccinated.
And it's this whole bizarre online, well, it's not just online,
these are women in the world.
Uh, and they often live down the peninsula of course.
And they, there's a level of privilege.
Yeah.
They want you to take over everything from the start, other than why
I've end up chatting to them.
Desperation, I guess.
But, uh, because they seem to be chronically available.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's, yeah.
There's so many.
Do some of them believe it?
Totally.
And do others just write that in the bio?
'cause they think that's what you put there?
I don't know, man, because this door of like, do we think we're attracted to,
it's an authentically, it's anti feminism.
It's like, oh no, it is, it's, it's, it's consciously anti-feminist.
It's can consciously anti feminism and yes, if you are into feminism
as a man, that's not hot to me.
It's only a small percentage.
So do you know what, like, I I kind of get it if a woman says, if
a man bangs on about his feminist credentials that it's deeply sad.
I don't claim to be a feminist.
'cause I find that's a bit sickening.
No, I think it's a weird, I think it's a weird move.
Could be disproved throughout my adult life.
So what's the point of saying it?
No, and don't at me for like, don't, don't come, don't come at me with like, hang on.
I believe that there should be equality between genders and sexes, so that
technically makes me a feminist.
Yeah.
No, no, no, no, no.
Shut up.
I I even It just makes you, I even cr egalitarian, even cr I even cringe.
Yeah.
Back when I still had a Facebook account.
I, um, during the Me Too movement, I even did a post about, oh, I should
have been listening and paid more attention or something, and I cringe
that I even bothered to fucking say anything at that point rather
than just shutting the fuck up.
You know, like I'm trying to put my little hand up and say, yeah, I'm an ally.
And it's like, just shut up, Joe.
No, I, no, no, but, but I will say this, it's important for, it is important
for people outside of a group to speak up and echo the claims being made.
So, for example, during the Civil Rights movement, it was critically important that
non-black people marched and were hosed by the cops and had dogs set on them.
And were arrested and were profiled by the FBI.
the oppression needed to be acknowledged as a shame.
Yeah.
But that's a bit different from someone who's been a bit of an asshole to
women his whole adult life jumping on Facebook and saying, yeah, I understand.
Like, I don't, I've been enough of an asshole.
It's unearned.
Yeah.
I've been enough of an asshole.
Yes.
I've heard enough women that yes, I agree and treated them badly
for their appearance or whatever.
Sure.
Or for getting the ick and then just breaking up with 'em.
So in other words, it would be profoundly hypocritical.
It's too hypocritical.
I should have just shut up.
But in theory, you have no argument against equality, right?
Oh, like I was raised by a feminist Yes.
And a Marxist.
Yeah.
Like my mom lived with Helen Garner in the seventies.
Oh, that's awesome.
That is fucking awesome.
I got cred.
I was raised by a feminist.
I have no, is your mom a side character in like the last days of
Shane knew, or like, uh, she, she's sort of in Monkey Grip somewhere.
Monkey Grip.
She was living with Helen Gardner while she wrote Monkey Grip.
Speaking of a complicated feminist.
Helen Garner, I think would be enjoying this conversation.
But anyway, yeah.
Just as an aside.
Um, but yeah, so yeah, I think that, yeah.
Yes, I believe in quality of pay and all the basic qualities of feminism.
Sure.
But I have treated women badly enough that I can't claim to be.
If I was a better feminist, I wouldn't have been such an asshole.
Well, of course, the irony of what you're saying is you are willing to acknowledge
that, that you have committed wrongs.
I mean, that is, but I'm literally the first step.
My mom is a hardcore feminist and I'm attracted to pretty hardcore feminists.
I saw one in the pub the other night.
An ex Well, what you're saying is when you encounter a woman that disavows
feminism, it is a massive turnoff.
This woman I saw in the pub the other night, Sam, I dated her for about six
months after my big breakup, Uhhuh.
And, uh, I would say at the time I thought she was maybe not
that conventionally attractive.
Sure.
And I saw her in the pub the other night, and I was struck by the thing
that I was struck by in the first place, which is she is striking.
Striking is where it's at.
Yeah.
Like she's, if you want my opinion, like a manish, a Manish kind of woman.
Oh bro.
Like got some masculine energy.
Yes.
Hardcore leftist and hardcore feminist man, very strong,
can flatten you on fight.
Um, a little bit autistic and like unfeeling.
It was great.
Oh, and then I saw her the other night and she, she doesn't hate me.
She was very warm towards me and I thought, oh wow, this
is an ex that doesn't hate me.
Like, how wonderful.
Hang on.
How long did you go out?
Six months.
And at the end, she didn't wanna say, I love you to me.
No.
And she didn't want me to be able to call her my girlfriend.
No.
And on the basis of those two facts, I called it off break.
In hindsight, who cares?
Dude, you are having a good time.
She's great company.
Like who cares about the girlfriend label?
Who cares about whether they're in love with you?
Being in love is one of the most horrific things that can happen to anyone.
And it's a bourgeois construct anyway, which is what she would probably say.
Yeah.
Like who knows about being, uh, at 45?
I'm baffled about the concept of in love.
I keep going to weddings where I'm like, are these people in love on the day?
You, maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm like, I think a lot of people on the day they
get married, frankly, they're frazzled.
They're overstimulated.
Yeah.
They don't know how they feel about anything.
Like, oh, you've done it, haven't you?
Yeah, I have.
Yeah.
And I look back, I look at the photos of that day and I'm like, I
was, I was tired, but I was also.
Elated and it felt very much like the right decision and I was very glad.
But it felt I was exhausted because it had been just the process of organizing.
But also I was going into that marriage feeling very inadequate.
And will I measure up?
Will I be a good husband?
Will I be a good father?
Will I, will I be able to do what I didn't do all the other times,
which I've already done in that relationship at that point, you know?
Yeah.
Twice of just like totally withdraw.
Yeah.
And just disappear emotionally and good on you for rolling the dice.
How did it work out?
Well, not, not not so good, but I mean, two lovely kids, you know?
Yeah.
It's all worth it for the kids.
It is.
But, and then can I ask, yeah.
I don't wanna get too personal here, but did you find that you had a more lasting
attraction to the woman you married than anyone else you'd come across?
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That was my experience too.
Like it didn't.
You said at the start, it's capricious and it, and it goes away sometimes, but
with the long term, my only real long term like mind, it came back so many times.
Yeah.
It kept coming back.
And you know what I realized, this will literally never go away.
It will, it will keep coming back.
Yeah.
When I occasionally see the mother of my children still,
it's like profound and li Yeah.
At this point it's like 10 to one on anyone else.
Yeah.
I wouldn't say that, but I still can appreciate the beauty
of the mother of my children.
Like, it's like, no, she's hot.
Yeah.
I, I can still see that.
And even if we're not seeing eye to eye, which you know, isn't a massive problem
for us these days, I still can think what a beautiful woman and Oh, and good
personal qualities as well and yeah.
And like, yeah.
So I guess, don't you, do you find a woman more attractive as you get to know them?
Right?
So when you were saying before about, you know, this.
Person you found striking early on, but not necessarily hot.
Right.
It's a difference between, I, I'm sexually attracted to them and my friends down at
the cricket club will think they're hot.
I dated someone a few years ago where I take, took her down to the cricket club
and then like she's like a knockout.
Yes.
And all the guys are like acting weird around her, you know?
Yeah.
I've dated those women too, but that's kind of like, it's actually
a bit terrifying to be dead.
It's less good.
It's terrifying.
Yeah.
It's like, this is stressful.
Like this, this woman is like turning on every guy on the street.
Now as it turns out, a number of people have come out of the woodwork one by
one and said that they find my wife hot.
Right.
And did in some cases before I met her.
Like Right.
And I'm like, oh, right.
So there I was feeling like you'd found a she.
She was not giving out.
You know, was not passing, was not passing out vibes Right.
To, to people.
But I, I would still put her head and shoulders above in any room.
Right.
Everyone else, but is not, not necessarily, you know, as I said to
the girl in Lauren who we had, I had the mutual annoyance with, God, Erin,
last night, you a bubble Uber the boys, and you, it was flies on a turd.
And she's like, I'm the turd in this charming analogy.
Am I?
And I'm like, oh my God.
It was a very sudden, that was the moment she said the words, am I the
turd in this charming analogy with just the right level of contempt?
Yeah.
That's hard.
And I'm like, you are smart.
You are cutting.
Yeah.
You see through me, you realize there was more to her you, there's
more to you and there's more to me, you realizing, and this is.
Weirdly interesting.
But like, I was just like, and yet I will never act upon this
because I felt locked in to what I So what, you guys never hooked up?
No.
Ah, I was assuming this steamy story ended in the boudoir.
No, but I wanted to just close off this thought about what, about my wife?
That there was never this, I need to worry about attractions, friends.
I need to worry about friends.
Oh.
'cause I, because I've had this in the past, like I said, I put her
like 10, 10 to one on everybody else.
But I, I have in the past had more of a worrying or annoying
situation where people are like, oh bro, your girlfriend's hot.
And I'm just like, you know what?
You can shut up.
Like you think you are paying me a compliment here.
Yeah.
I mean, I had, um, yeah.
Everyone will remain nameless from my end with these people I'm talking about.
But the one from a few years ago that really messed me up mm-hmm.
Down at the cricket club, she met one of my good friends.
Yeah.
And then afterwards, and this is a guy who will tend to just
be charming towards women.
Yeah.
But he also just does it with everyone.
He's just got a bit Oh no.
He, he's just got charm.
He's, yeah.
Yeah.
And she said, well, I'd be watching out for him the way he was talking to me.
Oh.
And she, he'd spoken to her for five minutes and he would've, which he is
way, he would've flirted with her.
He would've flirted with her.
But he, he would also flirt with, he'd flirt with anyone.
With Freak.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
And he like, and it just, but it made me uneasy.
And then it, when the breakup happened, it should, it created, yeah.
Resentment I had.
Because what she's actually saying there is, you shouldn't trust me.
That's right.
It's a huge tell on yourself, like you just confessed there.
Yeah.
What you should say, if you wanna mention an attractiveness to anyone else at all,
which is apparently allowing the third.
That book's been around for a long time.
Um, and of course now we have ethical non-monogamy and all
this, but Oh, it's everywhere.
Especially around these parts.
Yeah.
But in theory, it's always existed as an option, but that it's a good
piece of advice in theory that as a relationship, uh, if it's got, if it's
based on any firm foundations and to people have secure attachment, that
they should be able to acknowledge attraction to other people without it
causing, you know, any undue disruption.
And more importantly, that it's actually necessary to do that
because the alternative is to claim.
Or to feel obliged to maintain a false claim, which is that you do not
experience attractiveness to anyone else because that would be disloyal.
So then when you do experience attractiveness to other people,
I experienced this as an, an intensely guilt inducing thing.
Yeah.
And fear inducing because I was betraying this person by finding
someone else attractive and therefore I would be betrayed.
Yeah.
And funding, I mean, I think in the case of that person, yes.
I couldn't trust her.
Mm-hmm.
And I've all, an older guy said this to me, I don't know what you think about
this piece of wisdom, but that if you're feeling, like, if you're feeling jealous
and distrustful, there's probably a reason because in my long, long-term relationship
with the mother of my children, I never had a single moment of that in nine years.
I always completely trusted that person.
And I was Okay.
So you experienced secure attachment more or less.
Yeah.
That was the great mystery of my five years of therapy.
Sam, open-ended, I'll probably still go back.
Yeah.
Just don't like a billing system.
But, um, uh, the great mystery was this nine years where I had secure
attachment, the rest of it made sense.
I was a fucking nightmare.
Mm-hmm.
And the last 10 years of my life of insecure attachment
has made perfect sense.
But the mystery was how did I drop into this secure attachment
for this period of time?
Um, well, I've heard, I've heard it from the experts that occasionally people
with insecure attachment styles like you and me, you know, I'm profoundly,
uh, uh, usually avoidant, but I will experience anxious attachment.
Uh, when the other person finally goes, you know what, dude?
Fuck you.
I give up.
Then the anxious attachment comes in.
Right.
But basically the second I felt that other people were really
counting on me emotionally, I felt.
Inadequate and unable to really answer that.
And I had, but a intense desire to form lasting deep and meaningful relationships.
But the second that all the ingredients were there and the commitment
was there, I felt a profound terror at not living up to it.
And so that's avoidant attachment.
Right.
but like I said, I experienced both the anxiety, the anxious, and the avoidant.
And in your case, I think if you've mostly been, I'm anxious.
Anxious, yeah.
I'm like a textbook.
Right.
Extreme case of anxious attachment.
So, so in theory, you should have been freaking out on a
regular basis about your wife.
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
But you didn't, especially 'cause she's a just a and I don't just, I don't just
mean cheating the idea that she does not love you or does not find you enough.
Yeah, yeah.
That didn't trouble you.
No, no.
I just felt completely secure with that person for, for nine years.
Well, the experts tell me that even people that are as like.
Look, I would not put as 10, outta 10 on the dysfunctional here, but
like, we're definitely over a five.
Right.
in terms, you know, from childhood reasons and events in our early twenties as well.
Right.
Yeah.
So there's like a, there's parallels, but occasionally people like you
and me are capable of choosing to a degree, unconsciously the right person
who will more or less be able to not negate whole hand, whole wholly,
but like basically occasionally we luck out and make the right choice
and don't feel that insecurity much.
And I have experienced this a couple of times.
Um, and that's where we're lucky to end up with children.
Yes.
'cause I could be so debilitated by my anxious attachment and my weird mm-hmm.
Perfectionism.
That, for example, the last 10 years of my life, I've never been
in a position to create a child.
Yes.
So, like, I could have been like that terminally, but I actually got lucky for
a period of time, my late twenties, early thirties, and luckily got a couple of
kids out of it, and it was fortuitous.
And, but, but now the point of this conversation, if it's gonna
be therapeutic, and we do try and have therapeutic chats, is, mm-hmm.
Okay.
I've got my kids, they're, they're nearly one's a teenager, one's nearly a teenager.
There's absolutely no need for you to do any reproduction at this point.
Yeah.
I've, I've had the snip, I'm not having more kids.
What the fuck am I trying to achieve with relationships?
And when it comes to attraction, can I, mm-hmm.
Am I willing to, or can I possibly be willing to compromise or mm-hmm.
Go past a few ick moments.
Mm-hmm.
And assume that they're having ick moments towards me as well.
Yes.
Don't you think that's transformative to make that same assumption?
Yeah.
Just, just can I, 'cause if I don't, Sam, I think, well this is what you
said to me on the couch last time.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm am, am I destined to die alone and live a lonely life after?
Yeah.
I just had a very, it's not over yet, but I've just had a very lonely
cold winter lying in a bed on my own.
Yeah, man.
And it's like, if I could have been willing to compromise, I could have
had someone pretty great in my life.
Yes.
And I wasn't.
And I didn't, and I was very alone.
Now that seems to be a bit of an error.
Like I feel like I probably fucked that up.
Tactical, strategic, whatever.
Yeah.
Well, like there is no strategy, there is no plan.
It's just like, nah, I'm not feeling it.
You know?
Yeah.
So you just did.
You're just a, uh, you know, I think you're just a typical human being in that
sense that you want the thing and you, but you struggle to put in the effort.
And I'm going, it's not just compromising on looks, it's
also compromising on behaviors.
Like yes, of course I had a falling out with this person about watching
the test cricket and texting.
Yeah.
I was exact thing I was thinking of.
I read your mind.
I'm like, you were unable to accept that a person would find that annoying that you
wanna watch Tess Cricket for hours on end.
Yeah, I've said, I said that on the show a couple of years ago.
It's a deal breaker.
I said that on the show a couple of years ago.
It's a deal breaker.
And then it happened in real life.
And I, which I knew it would.
In fact, I was amazed.
It hadn't already, if I'm honest.
But then I told myself a narrative, which is if the attraction levels were higher
mm-hmm I would've turned off the cricket.
But I don't know if that's true.
No, it's not true.
I could be sitting there with Lucci and just be like, absolutely.
You know what Monica, do you know what?
I'm gonna watch this next session?
Because, can I just say this?
It doesn't matter how hot.
The other person is, or how hot you are, you both need
the fuck away from each other.
You both need solitude, right?
Mm-hmm.
You are going to kill the attraction very fast if you don't get a break.
And us insecure attachment people, we cannot, the whole point is we
cannot make up our fucking minds about whether we want to cling or run away.
And it's like, well, you don't, don't do either, right?
And be, I was gonna say, be authentically yourself.
And if that includes watching cricket, that's okay, but allow
them to be themselves as well and go, well, do you know what?
I find that an odd and selfish habit, if I'm honest, and
just allow them to say that.
Do you know what I mean?
But the thing is, I just be cool with it.
I'm like, good.
What's the big deal?
Good on me.
I stuck to my guns and didn't turn the cricket off that night.
And then I had endured a long and lonely winter who's the, but I
also understand who's the winner?
Who's the winner here.
I also think there'll be a lot of men that will relate to that, but there'll
also be a lot of women that will relate to that, who will like, you
know what there are, I do have some red flags, and I feel like if they
won't accept this thing about me, that it's a critical threat to my autonomy.
And I really fundamentally understand that feeling.
And I do not judge anyone for being.
Oh my God, you stepped like two centimeters onto my grass.
But it's like, it's, you are gonna try and lock me down.
It's like, like I get that's if your partner said, yeah, I don't want
you to go to band practice tonight.
Totally.
Or if they said, uh, I don't like, you know, I don't like it when you're out
late with the boys, or I don't like Yeah.
I don't want you sitting out in the shed smoke and rollies and Yes.
You know, listening to music Exactly.
At 1:00 AM Yes.
And you'd be like, but I have to do that, but I have to do that.
Yeah.
Or, or, uh, you know, why do you have to play video games or, um, yeah,
see that's one where Yeah, I, yeah, I can, I don't get the whole video game
thing so I could be judgy about that.
Or like, dude, how did you not compromise on that?
Hey, let's all just judge all day long.
You know?
And, but also, I will say this, don't, don't make the mistake of going, the
only way this is gonna work is if I learn to refrain from judgment.
It's, it's impossible.
But what you do is, this is my advice.
This is, and I'm taking my own fucking advice as we speak, because I've needed
to know this more than anybody else.
The judgments are gonna happen.
Forgive yourself for having them and hold them lightly.
Is this really, you know, and I don't say disregard your own like strong intuitions.
Right.
But God knows my whole life is living proof of the idea that feelings are
not a reliable guide to reality.
Yeah.
But my whole life is also a testament equally that one can't decide.
Oh, okay.
Facts are a reliable guide to reality.
It.
Neither one of the, it doesn't work like that.
One of the, one of the, the old elders in my addiction recovery circles says
that emotion should be like a, A rudder.
Yeah.
The guide you, but your intellect has to make the decisions.
Yes.
And I only sort of understand that.
I'm happy to relay it on the show, but I don't fully get that.
Well, I don't fully distinguish those two things I used to.
Right.
So, you know, thoughts and emotions.
Yes.
You're, so, you're aware of platonic dualism, right?
Like not really, but I could wing it.
Well, Cartesian dualism.
But like the, you know, the ancient Greeks who, you know, at some point they come
along and say, okay, reality is twofold.
There's, there's basically the, the touchable and the non touchable, right?
There's the sort of spirit and the flesh.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Right.
And then, so that gives us the doctrine of the soul and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Now, Cartesian dualism, big problem for science.
Uh, theoretically it's been overcome recently.
basically there is no separation between mind and body.
There is no separation between matter and spirit.
Uh, there's no separation between energy and matter.
It's all made of the same stuff.
And emotions and deci and rational decision making and feelings
are completely inseparable.
They're all one thing.
So anyone who spent time in therapy knows the, the emotions are helping to determine
the thoughts and the thoughts are helping to determine the emotions and, okay.
So you disagree with the elders thesis?
No, I think they're right.
Emotions can be just a rudder, just a guide.
Yes.
I think they're right though, to formulate it as a partnership
between the two things.
Because in truth we do, I can be a proper rugged mon and go, there is no dualism.
And you are, you are of that.
There is no separate.
Yeah, I'm a non-duality guy.
You're a non-duality guy.
I don't talk about it much on the show 'cause it's so hard to explain.
It's so hard to explain.
Right.
But look up non-duality.
Non-duality.
I said that to my daughter the other day, other week.
And your non, you believe in a doctrine of non-duality.
IE There is no division within reality into two different things.
Yeah.
The separate self is an illusion.
And you haven't come to this conclusion.
Intellectually, you had it as a revelation.
Yeah.
I've experienced it many times in meditation.
So I think it's, I think it is the key to this whole thing,
attraction, mental wellbeing.
It's all of a piece, right?
So like how do we get to an authentic place where we're actually choosing
the right people and we're not being misled by false notions or fears
and avoidances or clinging to false checklists and writing people off for
the, for insufficiently good reasons.
So leaving morality and judgment, and I ought to be a better person
leaving all that out of it, right?
We're all gonna be superficial, judgmental bitches and we just,
we accept it and we're gonna be subject to that from other people.
So a degree of honesty about that, right?
I think you're fairly comfortable with that.
And are you comfortable with allowing others to have their incorrect
views and just sitting with them?
Right.
This has been a huge pro struggle for me.
So for you, the non-duality thing, the, the non, the, the illusion of the separate
self, this isn't like a cute idea.
You've experienced this as a profound reality, right?
No, I think it's the single most important thing I've ever learned.
The single most important thing you've ever learned.
If I could, if I was gonna die tonight and had to pass one thing
onto my two daughters, I'd say this separate self is an illusion if, and
don't worry so much for that reason.
Don't worry so much.
If you take just one thing from me, it's this.
Yes.
And if you look up non-duality or talk to chat GPT about it,
it'll explain it to you perfectly.
It's, it's just, I don't stray.
Especially not on an attraction episode.
I don't wanna stray.
No, no, no.
I'll tell you why.
It's closely connected all the times when the turnoff, the sudden ick has occurred.
This has got to do.
With the illusion of the separate self.
Yeah.
The self is suddenly incredibly rarefied and just like, mm, solid, isn't it?
Mm.
Like, Ooh, I'm over here and that icky thing is over there.
And yeah, I don't want them to ever cross this boundary.
But also what you don't realize is in that same moment, you think you've put
a defense between you and the bad thing, but what's actually happened is you've
built four walls and a roof around yourself and there's no door, right?
Yeah.
So the second you go, safety consists in separateness, which is,
this is a very profound instinct, like at a base level, right?
So I'm not faulting anyone for feeling this way because I felt this
way, like literally a million times.
I can't trust anyone else.
And they can't trust me and there's no way to overcome this.
That's what I felt last night watching a complete unknown.
Mm-hmm.
Is what's Bob Dylan trying to achieve?
Young, early twenties.
Bob Dylan.
Yeah.
He's trying to achieve separation.
Yes.
From all these, from the folk scene.
Yes.
From the, the hangers on, from the, you know, like he's just trying to, he's
gonna drive to distinguish himself.
He's trying to achieve perfect freedom while also being famous.
He felt very impatient with other people.
Yeah.
And I, I didn't, I only mentioned that because I deeply like, this guy's my hero.
I've got his picture above my, my bed.
Mm-hmm.
And he was an iconic dude that Yeah.
Have the pick of the iconic genius.
Yeah.
Complete individual going for a complete individualism Yes.
Is my hero.
Yes.
So that doesn't align that well with the separate self as an illusion.
It sure does.
And it doesn't make you, when you don't have the talent of a Bob Dylan, it just
means you're a bit of a lonely asshole.
Yes.
You know, any gold records.
But don't you think Bob Dylan experienced an enormous amount of loneliness too,
and that it's, I think it's clear in his writing that he, he, uh, okay.
So in his, well, interestingly, I watched that film with friend of
the show, Liv, who's a psychologist.
Yes.
And she said at the end, go on.
What was his childhood like?
Mm-hmm.
Because, because him and, uh, Liv and my daughter, who watched the show,
watched the movie with me, were both like, why is he such an asshole?
Mm-hmm.
And I was just there going, he's my hero.
I, I think there's, if you want like my, I'm not really a proper Dylan
Ologist, but I have read, I've read the anthology volume one went for God's
sake, is he ever gonna do a volume two?
Uh, it was a really good book that Dylan wrote about his early years.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
It's, it's a great read.
It's a, it's a fucking masterpiece.
It's a real page turn.
Yeah.
The broken.
Right.
But like, and I don't like all of his songs equally.
Right.
Some of them are a real turnoff for me, and some of it just hit.
So hard.
Yeah.
You're not obsessed like me.
No, I'm not obsessed.
I can take it or leave a And you see him as just a man.
I see him.
I, whereas I as kind of a prophet.
No, but I had the mythical, mystical view of him and I thought
he, he was the gateway to some kind of Kabbalah or something.
Yeah.
Like it was big for me.
Don't get still.
Is that for me?
Yeah.
Like I really studied some of his songs can like drop acid.
Listen to Mr.
Tambourine Man.
And you're like, totally whoa.
It's all there.
Oh no.
It's a phenomenal song, don't get me wrong.
Right?
Yeah.
But like, yeah.
It seemed to mean so much on LSD anyway.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It's very, it's very acid.
Right.
But, so what I was gonna say about Dylan is so Tambourine man has
this, um, romantic mysticism to it, which I was very attracted to.
I liked, I liked the whimsical Dylan at first.
Yeah.
I liked the romantic Dylan.
And when I say romantic, I mean capital R that the, you know, uh,
maybe somewhere in Tania, you know?
Yeah.
If you see her say hello like this Wistfulness.
Yes.
And if only I'll.
If only my own true love was waiting.
If I could hear her heart softly pound, and if only if she was lying by me,
would I lie in my bed once again.
But yeah.
And surely Bob Dylan is a separate self if there ever was one.
Right.
But he's a separate self who then goes, who's reifying that constantly through
the songwriting and he's full of acerbic remarks about other human beings, right?
Yes.
Oh, love it.
He's either, he's either cutting other people down to size Yes.
Or romanticizing them at a distance.
That's exactly what I do.
Yeah.
I love that.
What a deficient way to live life.
I've ended up quite lonely, as I keep saying.
Yeah.
And I, I have two, so I won't say that I will, I won't place
myself above you in this regard.
I thought I was better than that, but I don't, I fundamentally still are.
I'm still not there.
But I can see through the illusion of it and I can play,
put it in his proper perspective.
But, you know, can I realign the behaviors to fit Well?
We'll see.
But when it comes to, I think Dylan's very useful because he, Hmm.
the girl from the north country or sad eyed lately of the lowlands,
boots of Spanish leather.
Yes.
It's all these songs about separation, right?
Yeah.
And so that really connected with me because I did experience a lot
of separation as a young person, as a child, and as a young person.
And so the, the, the romantic wistful Dylan very much connected with me, but so
did the angry vengeful, hard eyed Dylan also really connected to me, you know?
Um, don't think twice.
It's all right.
Which is like, it's right and it's light, but it's not, it's like very bitter.
Yeah.
It's dark.
And, and I, I intensely related to that song because I felt that it was.
A trenchant critique of a certain kind of feminine romanticism.
Yeah.
And that's what I said to friend of the show, B McCafferty.
I said, you know, this morning I said, there wasn't any
narrative tension in that film.
It's just a bunch of Bob Dylan stuff.
And he said, it's Bob Dylan versus women does both.
That's the tension.
Oh my God.
Bob Dylan versus women.
And when you makes Blonde on Blonde, it's like, this is an album about Right.
This love hate relationship.
It's a misogynistic album, right?
Yeah.
And, but I don't say that.
I say it's artistically meritorious.
Do you think I'm a misogynist though?
Be honest.
Yeah.
A little, yeah.
At times.
Yeah.
It's a contextual thing.
But I thought you were gonna say it's a spectrum.
It it is.
It's, it's a spectrum and it's a context.
I resent how much I'm obsessed at times with women.
Yeah.
With certain women.
You know what, this is what I'm gonna say.
So that resentment leads to a misogyny of like, yes, yes.
Wish I could just be free from how much I need you right now.
You know?
Absolutely.
I think you are right to resent that.
Yeah, but you are attributing it to the wrong cause.
Women are not causing you to feel that way.
You are causing you to feel that way and due to childhood stuff.
Yes.
And you have not overcome, you've a, not deprogrammed the
romantic illusions sufficiently.
I'll say That's my, that's my judgment.
Yeah.
Lifetime listening to Dylan probably didn't help.
Right, exactly.
But what but what?
Here's your assignment.
Listen to Dylan and hear the dysfunction in it.
Hear the willful attachment.
Well, I watched it with two women, a young woman and a woman.
My, and they both called it, they both said, why is he such an asshole?
And I the right person?
I wasn't viewing it like that.
I'm like, this guy is my fucking hero.
Well, he was an asshole because he was very talented and he had the arrogance
that Yeah, that came with that.
He was also an asshole because he was extremely driven and ambitious.
Talent by itself is nothing.
Yeah, yeah.
But I did, just wasn't viewing it through the lens of he's an asshole.
I was viewing it through the ends of lens of how fucking cool is this guy?
You know?
Well, yeah.
No, no, no, and he, you're right.
He was the definition of cool at one point.
Right.
That's right.
And.
I think ladder Dylan when he sort of ages, oh, it's so daggy in the eighties.
He's so, Dagg is the definition of daggy in the, do you what?
Eighties Know what?
That's the guy I can embrace a lot more.
Yeah.
You know, born again Christian.
I think that's way more my kind of Dylan and, and, but that's, that's
what Dylan heads will tell you.
Sam.
There's a Dylan for every age and stage of your life, you know?
Now, Sam.
Yeah.
We're either gonna need a bathroom break or we should wrap this up.
Oh, I say we take a bathroom break and continue because I think this
is an absolute heater and I feel like I've got this much more to say.
Wow.
Have a look at your notes and we'll come back.
She'll come record a two parter.
I don't think so.
Just give it another 10 minutes.
It's just gonna be a bumper episode, everybody.
All right.
so is this turned into a Dylan episode?
Are we Well, yeah.
'cause it's one we're supposed to be talking about attraction.
Well, but this is what I'm gonna point to and I think we should wrap it up too, Sam.
Sure.
But I'm gonna use Dylan as a way to kind of bring some threads together here.
Okay.
So Dylan is a clue to all the things.
We're talking about here.
I don't think he has the answers, but he reveals the pathologies.
Right?
And the first one is this false notion, which I believed for a
long time that, blonde On Blonde was the, the so album, right?
Or the angry album.
That's the one where he, you know, his feelings towards women have changed
or whatever, and blah, blah, blah.
Actually.
Now I look at it and go romantic misty-eyed, younger Dylan with, you
know, like I said, sad eyed lady, the lowlands, and Sarah o Sarah,
glamorous nm sweet lover of my life.
Like, I mean, that's a later song, but like the.
That mode he has of like worshiping from afar.
Mm.
Of only loving them in separation.
Worshiping.
Worshiping from afar.
Romanticizing from afar.
She's flitting through a market in Mar Kay.
Oh, of course.
She's, yeah.
And the perfect woman and he, that's still what I'm looking for.
Of course.
Oh right.
And you, me too.
And you're not wrong, but you need to be able to find, I mean, this is genuine.
It's just a statement of fact.
It's so boring to say this.
You need to be able to find the appeal in the everyday and the real, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's the key to all of it.
And it also unlocks your own, uh, a feeling of comfort for oneself.
And I was speaking for myself here that once I was able to go, I love the reality.
Yeah, then I was able to actually love myself a lot better.
So this is what, yeah, Alanda.
Botten says We need to get over romanticism.
Re romanticism has poisoned our brain.
He's right.
And I met someone, a woman once, who had said she'd had to stop listening to.
Yeah, it's things like Dylan songs or Beatles songs that romanticize love
to get over a sex and love addiction.
Are you familiar?
Yeah.
And I think that's the right move, right?
Because that stuff, but I'll never stop listening to Dylan.
I think you can still listen to it, but achieve a level of like a
mature relationship to the work.
That this is not a guide to how to live your life.
If anything, it's helping to reveal the neuroses and the, the difficulties.
And the mistakes.
The errors as you described them earlier.
So Dylan can only love profoundly in separation and at a distance.
Right.
The young Dylan anyway, I dunno what later.
Dylan is a bit more real I think.
So if he was around now that just say he had a void, an attachment.
Absolutely.
And that he would get, he would catch the ick pretty soon and end it.
Or she would leave or there'd be some enforced separation 'cause he's traveling
or whatever and you know, she's not there.
So he finds it all too easy to long for her at a distance, but he finds it
very difficult to actually just be in a proper relationship up close in reality.
And I would say in a general sense.
Um, he was not particularly comfortable in his own skin a lot of the time
when, when he was around other people, and that when he was alone, I think
he felt relatively comfortable and relaxed, and I think he was happiest
when he was at the typewriter.
and, and in the middle of performing that he would feel a sort of oneness
with himself and with the world.
But when it came for social interaction, he's either sort of.
Awkward or silent or dismissive, or sneering or, and you can just
imagine what he would've been like to have as a boyfriend.
You know, just a nightmare.
And, and then probably incredibly sweet at times as well, right?
So all we, I contain multitudes as an older, Dylan says, right?
Yeah.
So that's the key to all this, to accept all the parts of yourself, not to go.
They're good, they're bad, uh, or they're okay.
I And to be and to be able to do that for the other, it's all one thing.
I'm gonna give you five minutes to wrap up the threads of attraction
and we'll finish the episodes.
Okay.
So my mate, Ben, years ago, he told me a story about his,
his girlfriend, who he's cute.
Like, uh, you know, I could, I could agree.
And I said that 'cause he was looking for that.
And I was like, okay, what's the deal?
And he's like, well, sure she's cute.
Right?
I like her.
But the other day I caught a glimpse of toe hair.
I saw some toe hair, and I was just like, Ooh.
And I'm like, okay, man.
Everyone's got toe hair.
Like you're gonna have to be able to get past this.
Right.
So that's why it's easier to love at a distance.
Mm-hmm.
Because you don't have to worry about toe hair or whatever.
Like, and for, for me.
The tow hair's not a problem, but it's gonna be something else.
Mm.
It's gonna be behavior.
The biggest, the biggest turnoff for me was them seeing me for who I really am.
Mm.
That was the real turnoff, right.
I'm like, oh my God.
They see through me.
They know I'm a vain, inauthentic piece of shit.
And what I didn't realize was like, no, no.
That's the good news.
That they see you for who you are, and they're still here
and they're sticking around.
So what are you worried about, man?
This is the, this is the breakthrough.
You've, that's how you know you've really found one this.
That's how you know you've got a real one.
This is the breakthrough you've been looking for.
But instead I experienced it as the exact opposite.
I can only be secure and happy if you have an illusion about who I really am and.
Think about it, what's the inverse of that?
I can only feel secure and happy and attracted if I have an illusion
about how you, who you are.
So you can see how tremendously obvious all of this is when
you put it like that, right?
So learn to love the reality of what it is.
And there's another person who I'm thinking of who I will not name and
was not in a relationship with but is.
Very conventionally.
Beautiful, uh, great bone structure, right?
And lovely dark skin.
Bone structure.
Bone structure, lovely dark skin, and visible all over body hair, right?
Oh, now I didn't notice it at first, just like, and then one day
I was like, oh, oh, yeah, right.
That is a of course.
And I was like, I couldn't unsee it.
Right?
And then I wondered how her boyfriend felt about it, right?
Because he also had a bit of hair.
And I'm like, well, it's probably cool, right?
But then I learned everyone's got the same amount of body hair, more or less.
It's just that some people's are much more visible and that this is.
An unfair beauty standard, just one among many, and there's
so many like tallness for men.
Um, or as I experienced, you know, that I needed to be tanned and tight
in the abdomen and, uh, have good arms and I really hit me hard and
I never forgot it when a girl said.
You'd be hot if you had some muscles.
Mm.
And I was like, oh man, that's just brutally unfair.
Right?
But I was doing the same thing to other people and like, oh yeah, yeah, you
just called someone an eight earlier.
Totally.
Right.
So what am I leaving out?
What's the two?
Well, what pushed her?
What pushed her to 10 was No, but even the fact you're willing to number people.
Oh no.
You are obviously cool with a bit of No, and that's right.
Objectification.
Exactly.
I was consciously making that move.
To illustrate how the two of us were both very much harshly but somewhat
objectively assessing one another.
And the fact that we actually liked each other nonetheless
is quite, quite remarkable.
But the thing that really tipped that attraction into, into, into Gear was
I was one day sitting down with a couple of mates at like an outdoor,
you know, drinking area in lawn.
It was sort of quiet, quietish afternoons, a few people around.
And I happened to have the guitar there 'cause I think I was gonna.
Maybe do a little bit of a show there later.
I can't remember why.
And then she's like, oh, do you play that?
And I'm like, yeah.
She goes, go on, do something.
And I'm like, oh Christ.
Hang on.
Is this the Harry woman?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
The one that I was annoyed with from hospitality situation, I'll
close off the Harry woman story.
Eventually I just went, oh no, it's just there.
It's just the reality.
Everyone's got their hair.
It's just visible in this case, see past it or don't, but if you, yeah,
but see, it's like I've always dated, but if you don't see past it, you're
gonna miss out on the awesome person.
Don't, yeah.
Most of the women I dated had like hairy armpits, and then I got a friend.
I like hairy armpits.
I've got a friend who gets such an ink that he can't even say
hairy armpits to him without him.
Ga.
About women.
Okay.
I've got one thing that, you know, I persont bother me at all.
I've been just as superficial as that and might be again, but get over it.
Stop being such a baby.
Yeah, just grow up.
But he can't, that's his ick.
Okay.
But it's like, I don't think he, does he not have armpit hair?
It's so hard to overwhelm your own ick.
Does he have, does he not have armpit hair?
I'm not saying he's right, Sam, I'm saying he's probably wrong,
but that's just the No, no, no.
Of course he's, he's having a visceral reaction to something
that doesn't bother me at all.
But how, how do you overcome it?
Right.
I think the key is he doesn't, he just dates hairless women.
He's a pretty attractive guy.
It's easy enough to shave your armpits, right?
So I guess it's an easy problem to solve, but to me it's like this
would represent some tremendous, I never wanted to drive a car.
I was terrified of doing it.
I had a visceral reaction to the idea of being behind the wheel, and yet now
I am here quite enjoy driving a car now.
Yeah.
So can I just say, you're basically a petrolhead?
I, I flawed it the other day, turning left onto Bell Street and going
across three lanes, and I was like.
God damn.
Alright, Sam.
And that move the needle.
I'm gonna have to go, I have to go and watch.
Well, I'll say the thing, what's the footy?
The thing that moved the needle with the person that annoyed me,
she said, go and play a song.
And I'm like, if there's one thing I hate, it's a demand performance.
Right?
So you're gonna go and look this woman up on Facebook after this?
Absolutely not.
She'll be married with five kids.
Uh, and I, it's better that way, but like, but.
Actually, or possibly has some high powered career.
I dunno, it's 50 50.
Yeah.
Anyway, um, and she's like, oh wait, have you got like, is that a songbook?
And I was like, yeah.
And she starts flipping through it.
Right.
And I'm just kinda like warming up, playing a strumming a little bit.
I think I, I started singing something and she goes sing this one.
And she turns the book around and it's Orphan Girl by Gillian Welch.
Oh, right.
And I'm like, I'm like.
I was astonished she even knew the song, first of all, and that
she would want that one, uh, out of, you know, everything there.
So I said, okay, fine.
I started singing it and then she joined in, in a beautiful harmony
and sang it with such feeling.
Wow.
And I was like.
So this Prissy private school girl, that's not who you really are.
Yeah.
What's going on here?
Like, why are you this way when there's actually this wonderful,
soulful person beneath, maybe I could look her up on Facebook.
You should.
She's awesome.
Like she's got that, a little bit of that Monica Ucci, a little bit
of that Catherine's Edita Jones.
Um, and just annoying enough for you, you know?
I think, but it's like, it sounds dreamy.
Yeah.
But, but the.
And I remember saying to a colleague how much, uh, how much, she just
said something annoying earlier about like, I, I need a man to pick me up
at the door and take me to a thing.
And I'm like, but what if, what if I'm a creep?
Like, what do you do then?
Don't you wanna meet in an objective, neutral public location so you can
like pull the ripcord if there's like a bad situation and she's like,
oh no, I would never choose anyone.
I'm like that.
And I'm like, it's almost this Dylan level of like confidence and arrogance
that like, she'll just never put a foot wrong and maybe she never did.
Maybe she was right to trust herself.
I don't know.
But you know, like it's, it's all, it can be a little bit of a mystery,
but I think what I've, what I've learned is that I actually can.
Eventually put my finger on why people are hot or not.
And it usually, to me, and it usually comes down to personality,
is actually much, much more important than I would've believed.
Mm.
And I think it's always been important to me.
And if there's like a level of just like.
Basic straight up physical attraction plus like a strong personality that it's,
that's an amazing combo and that I've always been drawn to people that were
accomplished or ambitious or forthright or you know, that kind of thing.
And that I think that those instincts are basically good
and that the thing that was missing was the attachment
piece, which slowly working out.
And the other thing that was missing was the knowledge that
like you could actually train.
You can train your aesthetic, you can change your aesthetic
that these things are malleable.
Yeah.
And you, for example, that friend of yours could reprogram the underarm
hair thing if they so chose.
Well, if I can retrain my attractive brain a bit.
I could potentially have a great partner that I maybe haven't quite lost yet.
So I think that's my homework.
I, I believe you.
It's possible.
And if it is possible, then I'm still in with a chance with that person.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, yeah, because as you said, the fundamentals were good.
You like get along with them and like enjoyed each other's company and you
know, it's like, come on, what are we?
Yeah.
And that's one word we haven't used is soul.
She's got soul man.
I, you know, gotta say if it's not there, it doesn't matter
how good the personality Yeah.
The appearance is.
Yeah.
She's a good human.
Yeah.
But, um, I don't have any way of getting through to her unless she
listens to this, so that's exciting for, well, everyone else and that person.
Well, as you said, the lesson of the Dylan movie is.
Good art equals get the girl right.
But you Yeah.
But as you've always said, this podcast is not art.
It's just two people talking on a couch.
Yeah.
It's not art, it's process.
It's uh, it's processing it's process.
Yeah.
That's right.
Um, well, I think, oh, that's right.
I'm gonna propose another, I'm gonna propose a part two to this
at some point in the future.
Yeah.
Which is dealing more with the aesthetic and the physical side of things.
I think that's what we just talked about for an hour.
I feel like we didn't get into it properly.
Okay.
Yeah, we can come back to it.
I want to talk about how the aesthetic.
And the psychoanalytic go together and what I've learned about that.
Okay.
Which is quite specific.
No worries.
And different worries.
Let's come back to it.
Mm.
But it's been fun.
Sam, thanks for having me in your home.
A good one.
Thank you for being here.
And, um, go dogs, by the time you listen to this will know
whether they're in the finals.
Oh.
Have you missed part of the game?
No.
Oh, no.
No.
It's about to happen.
It's about to happen and it's still or die, so that's exciting.
Yeah.
Let's hope that it's good news on the other side.
Or Danny will be happy if, uh, or unhappy.
Yeah, when we get to the end of today, that's right.
Yeah.
All right, mate.
All right.
Okay.
See ya.
See you, mate.