WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.112 --> 00:00:02.397
Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

00:00:02.397 --> 00:00:03.657
My name is Sam Ellis.

00:00:03.897 --> 00:00:07.677
My name's Joe Loh Attraction.

00:00:08.067 --> 00:00:09.057
Gonna talk attraction.

00:00:09.057 --> 00:00:14.247
Sam, why is it often
capricious and fleeting?

00:00:15.357 --> 00:00:16.287
Hmm?

00:00:16.287 --> 00:00:19.977
What things influence or even determine.

00:00:20.997 --> 00:00:25.407
Our perception of appearance and
attractiveness, is it just purely

00:00:25.407 --> 00:00:32.217
biological and all of our instincts are
100% correct or, or unavoidably coming

00:00:32.217 --> 00:00:35.067
from our nature in some basic sense?

00:00:35.487 --> 00:00:42.537
Or is all of that powerfully shaped by
culture and marketing and we have to

00:00:42.537 --> 00:00:49.227
deconstruct our experience of attraction
in order to get to a more real place?

00:00:49.557 --> 00:00:52.437
Yeah, I think this comes out of
the last episode towards the end.

00:00:52.437 --> 00:00:55.677
I think I said something like I've always
been trying to date, um, Thurman from

00:00:55.677 --> 00:01:02.307
Pulp Fiction because I was, you know, 16
at the time and actually my first partner

00:01:02.307 --> 00:01:07.977
when I was about 20, 'cause I was a bit
of a late bloomer, had a real, um, Thurman

00:01:08.007 --> 00:01:10.467
haircut, kind of dark hair kind of look.

00:01:10.690 --> 00:01:11.710
I think we both did very well.

00:01:12.550 --> 00:01:13.930
With our first significance.

00:01:14.290 --> 00:01:14.890
Yeah.

00:01:14.890 --> 00:01:17.920
So I mean, in terms of attraction,
I was joking with you before the

00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.340
show that what we're just gonna
talk about boobs, boobs and bums.

00:01:21.730 --> 00:01:22.990
We can talk about boobs and bums.

00:01:23.020 --> 00:01:24.280
We can talk boobs and bums.

00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:24.700
Yeah.

00:01:24.820 --> 00:01:28.570
Well I used to be more of a boob
man than I became more of a bum man.

00:01:29.530 --> 00:01:32.620
Uh, but I think what you're saying
is it's a lot more complex than that.

00:01:32.710 --> 00:01:33.430
Of course.

00:01:33.730 --> 00:01:34.090
Yeah.

00:01:34.150 --> 00:01:34.960
Because I, yeah.

00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:39.070
I also want to be sort of tortured
and pushed away and Well, yeah.

00:01:39.130 --> 00:01:39.880
All that stuff.

00:01:39.910 --> 00:01:40.390
Absolutely.

00:01:40.390 --> 00:01:42.160
'cause you're leaving
something really important out.

00:01:42.730 --> 00:01:47.290
The real question we're asking here
is not just, why is attraction?

00:01:48.220 --> 00:01:50.650
Why do we all experience
attraction as a bit of a mystery

00:01:51.340 --> 00:01:52.690
that we struggle to explain?

00:01:52.750 --> 00:01:56.020
And people just end up saying
things like, well, I don't know.

00:01:56.770 --> 00:01:58.900
There's just something
about him, her, them.

00:01:59.590 --> 00:02:03.160
That I can't define and or
I have a type and that's it.

00:02:03.250 --> 00:02:05.830
And people just sort of surrender
a lot of the time with it.

00:02:06.550 --> 00:02:09.340
Um, which, you know, but there
are conventions of beauty, right?

00:02:09.340 --> 00:02:10.510
But there are conventions.

00:02:10.540 --> 00:02:13.360
And where do the conventions
come from these days?

00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:14.230
2025.

00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:20.230
Uh, I mean, innumerable sources,
but to put it simply, it comes

00:02:20.230 --> 00:02:23.710
from the blob, the algorithm, you
know, that we're all swimming in.

00:02:23.770 --> 00:02:24.130
Yeah.

00:02:24.130 --> 00:02:28.420
Like, and that's determined by
now by millions and millions

00:02:28.420 --> 00:02:29.320
and millions of people.

00:02:29.590 --> 00:02:33.640
But it's also those classic things
of like, someone who's at Attract,

00:02:33.640 --> 00:02:37.330
considered a universally attractive,
actually just has incredibly

00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:41.200
symmetrical features and all those
like, oh, I'm glad you, I'm glad you

00:02:41.200 --> 00:02:42.970
mentioned symmetry, because Yeah, sure.

00:02:42.970 --> 00:02:45.670
There's a level of scientific
validation for the idea.

00:02:45.670 --> 00:02:47.530
We find symmetrical faces more attractive.

00:02:47.890 --> 00:02:50.530
But do you remember the most
famously asymmetrical face of,

00:02:50.530 --> 00:02:52.060
say the early to mid nineties?

00:02:52.060 --> 00:02:52.840
Shannon Doherty.

00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:53.980
Oh, okay.

00:02:54.490 --> 00:02:54.910
Go on.

00:02:55.990 --> 00:02:56.560
I rate it.

00:02:56.950 --> 00:02:57.310
Yeah.

00:02:57.310 --> 00:02:58.960
Right at Shannon Doherty asymmetry.

00:02:59.005 --> 00:02:59.065
Yeah.

00:02:59.755 --> 00:03:00.685
Not bad actually.

00:03:00.925 --> 00:03:01.765
Interesting.

00:03:01.765 --> 00:03:01.825
Yeah.

00:03:01.855 --> 00:03:05.815
But there is a conventional beauty where
I, I could say that person is beautiful,

00:03:05.845 --> 00:03:09.955
male or female, and you would know,
probably know what I'm talking about.

00:03:10.075 --> 00:03:12.805
I'm not gonna think you're
crazy 99% of the time, like

00:03:12.805 --> 00:03:14.875
Brad Pitt in Thelma and Louise.

00:03:14.935 --> 00:03:18.445
No, I was, I actually, I'll say
that's a young Brad Pitt Sure.

00:03:18.745 --> 00:03:19.915
Meet Joe Black.

00:03:20.185 --> 00:03:21.775
You can't go wrong with Brad Pitt.

00:03:21.775 --> 00:03:22.225
You can't.

00:03:22.495 --> 00:03:27.415
But leaving aside whatever about
his personal life, but I'm gonna

00:03:27.415 --> 00:03:32.245
say Brad Pitt in Fury The Tank one.

00:03:32.845 --> 00:03:33.295
Okay.

00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:35.485
You, you gotta be obscure for me, mate.

00:03:35.485 --> 00:03:37.015
I don't know what that, how
come the World War II movie?

00:03:37.255 --> 00:03:38.275
No, I haven't seen it.

00:03:38.275 --> 00:03:44.515
He's in the tank and it's pretty tragic
and heroic and there's funny moments, but

00:03:44.515 --> 00:03:46.375
he would have a very symmetrical face.

00:03:47.035 --> 00:03:47.365
Oh yeah.

00:03:47.370 --> 00:03:48.055
Like there's a reason.

00:03:48.055 --> 00:03:48.205
Yes.

00:03:48.415 --> 00:03:51.205
And there's obviously the
body as well, and Yes.

00:03:51.295 --> 00:03:53.695
Like when I mentioned last
night, I No, but there's a dash.

00:03:53.695 --> 00:03:54.775
There's a way he moves.

00:03:54.805 --> 00:03:55.795
There's a way he speaks.

00:03:55.825 --> 00:03:56.185
Yeah.

00:03:56.335 --> 00:03:58.675
He could be half as attractive
and I would still find him hot.

00:03:58.825 --> 00:03:59.275
Yeah.

00:03:59.275 --> 00:04:00.085
There's a lot of that.

00:04:00.085 --> 00:04:00.145
Yeah.

00:04:00.145 --> 00:04:04.594
Uh, someone, uh, I work with said they
don't go on dating apps because You can't,

00:04:04.594 --> 00:04:06.754
the picture does not give you the hotness.

00:04:06.814 --> 00:04:07.924
They, they need to.

00:04:07.924 --> 00:04:11.464
Um, well, they said they can't go
on dating apps because they need to

00:04:11.464 --> 00:04:13.534
see how someone moves in the world.

00:04:13.564 --> 00:04:16.414
I have the kind of beauty that
moves, said Arnie DeFranco.

00:04:16.564 --> 00:04:17.524
Yeah.

00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:24.004
And, and I'm not someone out there in a
day like my strongest, my strongest suit

00:04:24.004 --> 00:04:26.374
isn't just a still photograph of me.

00:04:26.914 --> 00:04:28.024
That's not my strongest suit.

00:04:28.024 --> 00:04:29.464
It's not, it's not horrific.

00:04:29.734 --> 00:04:34.474
It's not a deal breaker for everyone,
but it's not where, like, whereas

00:04:34.774 --> 00:04:38.764
how I move in the world, my, my
natural charisma that I can have.

00:04:39.154 --> 00:04:42.874
And Charm has always been my
strong suit and my ability to talk.

00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:43.684
Yeah, yeah.

00:04:43.684 --> 00:04:45.484
Where I can't get across the
still, the still photograph

00:04:45.484 --> 00:04:47.074
does not capture the Ty Yak.

00:04:47.074 --> 00:04:47.824
Absolutely not.

00:04:47.824 --> 00:04:49.984
Like I, I can't get that across.

00:04:49.984 --> 00:04:52.894
And so dating apps, I'm
already pushing shit uphill.

00:04:52.899 --> 00:04:53.074
No, no.

00:04:53.074 --> 00:04:54.064
You've got a handicap.

00:04:54.364 --> 00:04:55.084
Yeah, absolutely.

00:04:55.084 --> 00:04:56.649
And I think most people do ultimately.

00:04:57.334 --> 00:05:01.564
Have a handicap when it comes to a
two dimensional representation of what

00:05:01.564 --> 00:05:02.794
they can offer another human being.

00:05:02.794 --> 00:05:06.544
But I admired my colleague to say
for saying, I can't tell if I'm

00:05:06.544 --> 00:05:10.204
attracted from a photo, therefore
I just won't use dating apps.

00:05:10.234 --> 00:05:10.714
Okay.

00:05:10.864 --> 00:05:11.884
Why do you admire that?

00:05:12.334 --> 00:05:16.264
Because for 10 years I've wished I
could just decide to not use dating

00:05:16.264 --> 00:05:17.584
apps and never go back to them.

00:05:17.674 --> 00:05:21.034
Oh, so you you admire the clarity
and the decisiveness of it?

00:05:21.094 --> 00:05:23.494
Yeah, and that's someone
who's much younger than me.

00:05:23.494 --> 00:05:26.704
You'd think she would be dating
and getting out in the world and

00:05:26.704 --> 00:05:30.394
whatever, but she's happy just to
chill in between partners and not

00:05:30.394 --> 00:05:32.314
be window shopping on a dating app.

00:05:32.344 --> 00:05:35.674
'cause she knows that a still image
can't tell her what she needs.

00:05:35.734 --> 00:05:38.254
She doesn't give her the
information she needs.

00:05:38.254 --> 00:05:41.554
So she, she has to get out in
the world and meet people and

00:05:41.554 --> 00:05:42.964
see how they move in the world.

00:05:43.024 --> 00:05:43.534
That's right.

00:05:43.834 --> 00:05:48.225
Can we, sounds like she's got a, a degree
of secure attachment going on as well.

00:05:48.435 --> 00:05:51.255
She's not desperate to like
fill the, the parental.

00:05:51.585 --> 00:05:53.115
You know, mommy, daddy void.

00:05:53.266 --> 00:05:55.456
someone come and tuck me
in and make me feel better.

00:05:55.636 --> 00:05:59.896
Well, not to get too Freudian on
you, Sam, so early in the show, but

00:05:59.896 --> 00:06:01.336
is it all just about the parents?

00:06:01.426 --> 00:06:03.286
Well, do you all, do we
all just wanna read it?

00:06:03.286 --> 00:06:04.216
How does that work?

00:06:04.216 --> 00:06:08.266
Because like, photos of my
mom in her twenties mm-hmm.

00:06:08.566 --> 00:06:11.446
She was an incredibly attractive
woman and it raises some odd

00:06:11.446 --> 00:06:13.216
feelings in a, in, in a sun.

00:06:14.386 --> 00:06:14.986
It's true.

00:06:15.231 --> 00:06:18.706
It doesn't, I don't, I don't
even know if I'd go that far.

00:06:18.706 --> 00:06:22.606
Maybe it's just so wrong that I wouldn't
even allow myself to think that.

00:06:22.606 --> 00:06:26.746
But she's objectively was a very
attractive woman and probably

00:06:26.776 --> 00:06:28.696
still is for a 74 or whatever.

00:06:28.726 --> 00:06:29.236
Oh, no, no.

00:06:29.291 --> 00:06:30.556
I, I, ab a hundred percent.

00:06:30.646 --> 00:06:33.106
I, I would, I would date your mom.

00:06:33.316 --> 00:06:33.706
There you go.

00:06:36.766 --> 00:06:37.156
Wow.

00:06:37.756 --> 00:06:38.206
Okay.

00:06:38.656 --> 00:06:40.696
She's also a very difficult woman, Sam.

00:06:40.696 --> 00:06:42.046
Yes, I'm aware of that.

00:06:42.046 --> 00:06:42.906
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:42.906 --> 00:06:42.936
Well, I think.

00:06:43.576 --> 00:06:46.246
Actually say she's already stopped
listening to the show because we

00:06:46.246 --> 00:06:47.686
bagged out the boomers too much.

00:06:47.686 --> 00:06:51.736
So I was about to say all my g all my
partners have been difficult, but no, I've

00:06:51.736 --> 00:06:53.236
been the difficult one, let's face it.

00:06:53.656 --> 00:06:57.256
So I probably de, I probably deserve
to be with someone difficult, honestly.

00:06:57.346 --> 00:07:00.916
So do you have a model in your head
of attraction that you are Yes.

00:07:00.916 --> 00:07:03.406
That you've always been gunning for?

00:07:03.406 --> 00:07:04.831
Do you have a No, but it's strange.

00:07:04.831 --> 00:07:07.786
Do you have a nineties equivalent
of, I, I think the ones for

00:07:07.786 --> 00:07:09.586
me are like Monica Lucci.

00:07:09.766 --> 00:07:10.156
Great.

00:07:10.786 --> 00:07:12.136
Classic and, um, Thurman.

00:07:12.136 --> 00:07:15.496
And then more recently,
probably like an Anne Hathaway.

00:07:16.156 --> 00:07:16.906
Um, interesting.

00:07:16.906 --> 00:07:18.166
You raise Anne Hathaway.

00:07:18.256 --> 00:07:18.646
Yeah.

00:07:18.646 --> 00:07:19.786
'cause I'm halfway there.

00:07:19.786 --> 00:07:20.446
I think.

00:07:20.686 --> 00:07:21.856
I think she's amazing.

00:07:22.126 --> 00:07:23.386
Did you see her as Catwoman?

00:07:23.836 --> 00:07:24.436
Yes.

00:07:24.436 --> 00:07:25.396
But it, wow.

00:07:25.396 --> 00:07:26.596
For me it was a misfire.

00:07:26.626 --> 00:07:29.326
In fact, the whole Catwoman
thing never works for me.

00:07:29.326 --> 00:07:31.006
There's something too contrived about it.

00:07:31.816 --> 00:07:33.646
It's like I'm supposed,
oh, it works for me, Sam.

00:07:33.646 --> 00:07:34.576
I'm supposed to like it.

00:07:34.581 --> 00:07:36.706
It works for me on a very base level.

00:07:36.856 --> 00:07:38.896
Now I'm gonna, no, but
here's what I'll say.

00:07:39.436 --> 00:07:42.496
I think the Catwoman thing
would mean far more to me.

00:07:43.126 --> 00:07:47.956
If it was a real person in the room
and I have like a particular person

00:07:47.956 --> 00:07:51.796
in mind, right, that would do far
more for me than Michelle Pfeiffer

00:07:51.796 --> 00:07:55.336
or Anne Hathaway or any of the others
that have, that have played that role.

00:07:55.636 --> 00:07:57.496
Another one was nineties Drew Barrymore.

00:07:57.856 --> 00:08:00.646
That was a real, like,
she had a cutesy thing.

00:08:00.736 --> 00:08:03.076
Drew Barrymore was like,
mana, pixie dream girl.

00:08:03.136 --> 00:08:03.646
Yeah.

00:08:03.646 --> 00:08:09.016
It just, it just helped me understand
that's how I came to understand that I

00:08:09.016 --> 00:08:14.776
was clearly attracted to women and there
were, I wanted to grow up and, you know,

00:08:14.806 --> 00:08:20.956
like, but I, I didn't, I was a dorky gorky
teenager who didn't have a girlfriend.

00:08:20.986 --> 00:08:21.316
Sure.

00:08:21.316 --> 00:08:21.766
You were late.

00:08:21.766 --> 00:08:22.786
We were both late starters.

00:08:22.846 --> 00:08:26.536
But I could look at, you know,
drew Barrymore on the cover of a

00:08:26.536 --> 00:08:30.436
magazine and be like, oh my God, I'm
having so many feelings right now.

00:08:30.436 --> 00:08:31.606
I found her cute.

00:08:32.086 --> 00:08:37.276
I liked her in a kind of, I subconsciously
sensed this person is damaged and

00:08:37.276 --> 00:08:40.996
crazy like me, and that made me like
her, well, that would go as a friend.

00:08:40.996 --> 00:08:42.296
I think I really wanted to be her friend.

00:08:42.856 --> 00:08:44.956
I thought she was cool and I
would like to hang out with her.

00:08:44.956 --> 00:08:47.986
I think, I don't think I felt
strongly physically attracted to her.

00:08:47.986 --> 00:08:54.106
I think damaged and crazy has been, yeah,
there was a, this is like not gonna work.

00:08:54.166 --> 00:08:56.776
It's not gonna work as a joke
'cause it's like a third hand joke.

00:08:56.836 --> 00:08:59.836
But someone told me about a standup.

00:09:00.226 --> 00:09:00.436
Yeah.

00:09:00.436 --> 00:09:03.316
Who said, and this, I
really identified with this.

00:09:03.321 --> 00:09:03.441
Mm-hmm.

00:09:03.556 --> 00:09:06.556
I can be in a room of
beautiful people at a party.

00:09:06.616 --> 00:09:06.886
Yeah.

00:09:07.276 --> 00:09:10.996
And I'll be attracted to the, the
weird woman who's sitting in the

00:09:10.996 --> 00:09:12.496
corner like cutting themselves.

00:09:12.736 --> 00:09:13.876
Yes, sure.

00:09:13.881 --> 00:09:14.561
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:14.561 --> 00:09:14.721
Yeah.

00:09:14.726 --> 00:09:20.165
Like, and that's been my whole, apart
from the one big exception of, I've

00:09:20.165 --> 00:09:21.365
tried to be the interesting one.

00:09:21.365 --> 00:09:22.295
And then when I'm not trying Yeah.

00:09:22.295 --> 00:09:25.295
I mean, my dating history is the Yeah.

00:09:25.385 --> 00:09:30.725
Dark and fucked up women, apart from
the one woman I had children with who

00:09:30.725 --> 00:09:32.825
was a very happy, bright, sunny person.

00:09:32.825 --> 00:09:34.085
Mostly not anymore.

00:09:34.415 --> 00:09:34.595
Yeah.

00:09:35.525 --> 00:09:37.145
'cause she had kids with you.

00:09:39.185 --> 00:09:40.745
Yeah, probably so.

00:09:40.925 --> 00:09:41.675
It's not her fault.

00:09:41.705 --> 00:09:42.065
Yeah.

00:09:42.070 --> 00:09:44.375
It's probably not as light
and breezy as when I met her.

00:09:44.375 --> 00:09:45.005
Oh God.

00:09:45.035 --> 00:09:47.465
What did I mean, aren't we all
be broken and burdened by the

00:09:47.465 --> 00:09:48.605
weight of the world these days?

00:09:48.605 --> 00:09:49.175
But yeah.

00:09:49.175 --> 00:09:50.915
What did I do to that poor woman?

00:09:51.155 --> 00:09:53.285
I mean, something similar to what I did.

00:09:53.285 --> 00:09:53.880
Like just Yeah.

00:09:53.885 --> 00:09:56.615
Just be an absolute needy fucking mess.

00:09:56.615 --> 00:09:56.735
Yeah.

00:09:57.035 --> 00:10:01.505
And unaccountable for a lot of behavior
and then gradually sort it out.

00:10:01.505 --> 00:10:02.945
But once it's too late, you know?

00:10:03.065 --> 00:10:03.365
Yeah.

00:10:03.365 --> 00:10:05.825
But with her, in terms of
attraction, it was like a Lara

00:10:05.825 --> 00:10:07.205
Croft kind of, it was instant.

00:10:07.655 --> 00:10:09.425
There's like a Lara Croft.

00:10:09.430 --> 00:10:09.520
Yes.

00:10:09.605 --> 00:10:14.135
Kind of like overwhelming physical
thing that was just very simple and

00:10:14.705 --> 00:10:16.715
kept me going for many, many years.

00:10:16.715 --> 00:10:17.165
Totally.

00:10:17.375 --> 00:10:20.735
You know, and not, not to be weird
about it, but I think of all the

00:10:21.125 --> 00:10:24.815
people you've been associated
with, I think the strongest choice.

00:10:25.085 --> 00:10:28.895
Like, you know, I like,
I think you made a good.

00:10:29.525 --> 00:10:30.185
Choice.

00:10:30.395 --> 00:10:30.815
Yeah.

00:10:30.815 --> 00:10:32.975
And we have two beautiful
children, so there you go.

00:10:32.975 --> 00:10:33.065
Yes.

00:10:33.125 --> 00:10:36.755
And I don't just mean the personality,
I mean, I understand what you're

00:10:36.755 --> 00:10:40.625
referring to because you asked me earlier
about, well, you know, did I have an

00:10:40.625 --> 00:10:42.845
ideal when I was say 16 or whatever?

00:10:43.385 --> 00:10:44.705
And yes, I did.

00:10:45.365 --> 00:10:51.455
Uh, and it's, it involves
brown hair, curly brown hair,

00:10:52.085 --> 00:10:55.655
and, uh, not, not too thin.

00:10:55.835 --> 00:10:58.115
Well, which is a purely a
subjective statement, right?

00:10:58.355 --> 00:10:58.625
Yeah.

00:10:58.630 --> 00:11:02.375
But, um, but that has
changed over the years.

00:11:02.735 --> 00:11:09.815
It's, well, I think I had a very
shallow feel field or, uh, shallow

00:11:09.815 --> 00:11:12.845
aesthetic in more than one sense.

00:11:13.145 --> 00:11:17.285
It didn't, as in, I, I didn't have
a full appreciation of all the

00:11:17.285 --> 00:11:20.645
layers of a person that com, that
contribute to attractiveness when you

00:11:20.645 --> 00:11:22.175
actually really assess it properly.

00:11:22.715 --> 00:11:26.705
Uh, or rather don't assess it,
just experience it rather than.

00:11:27.785 --> 00:11:31.985
Filtering and judging, uh, which
is not an easy thing to do, but

00:11:31.985 --> 00:11:35.795
as someone with a background in
meditation, in theory you can get there.

00:11:36.053 --> 00:11:41.513
but at the time it was also shallow in the
sense that, you know, it was superficial.

00:11:41.513 --> 00:11:44.333
It was just more or
less a particular look.

00:11:45.388 --> 00:11:47.993
But it, it was also,
it also had a flatness.

00:11:47.993 --> 00:11:50.783
I didn't have that many reference
points in popular culture

00:11:50.783 --> 00:11:51.953
for what I was interested in.

00:11:51.953 --> 00:11:52.013
Yeah.

00:11:52.013 --> 00:11:56.063
And I remember, I remember
saying to a friend, I, am I

00:11:56.063 --> 00:11:58.673
supposed to think this is hot?

00:11:59.333 --> 00:12:03.953
And maybe it was a picture of
Al McPherson or, I dunno, Jenny

00:12:03.953 --> 00:12:05.693
Garth or someone like that, right.

00:12:05.693 --> 00:12:08.243
And I'm just like, it's not
moving the needle for me.

00:12:08.603 --> 00:12:10.103
Like, is there something wrong with me?

00:12:10.433 --> 00:12:13.463
I remember people talking about who they
had crushes on, on tv, and I'm like.

00:12:14.873 --> 00:12:17.213
I don't feel that way about anyone.

00:12:17.213 --> 00:12:20.513
So who was the first one from
Popular Culture that clicked for you?

00:12:20.603 --> 00:12:20.993
Oh, man.

00:12:20.993 --> 00:12:21.863
That's such a good question.

00:12:21.983 --> 00:12:28.403
Uh, I think yes, Catherine's Eda
Jones in the in, in the Darling

00:12:28.403 --> 00:12:31.223
buds of May Zea Jones Class Act.

00:12:31.283 --> 00:12:34.763
Oh, that's a, that's a,
yeah, that's a refined taste.

00:12:34.763 --> 00:12:35.483
Sam, thank you.

00:12:35.483 --> 00:12:35.988
I'm a man.

00:12:36.053 --> 00:12:39.893
I'm a, I'm a gentleman, I believe,
but yeah, I think Monica Lucci

00:12:39.893 --> 00:12:42.743
falls in the same category
of like a gentleman's choice.

00:12:42.863 --> 00:12:43.793
Oh yeah.

00:12:43.793 --> 00:12:45.563
Just, just classy.

00:12:45.983 --> 00:12:46.988
Just a couple of classy.

00:12:47.218 --> 00:12:48.743
It's a refined selection.

00:12:48.743 --> 00:12:49.283
That's right.

00:12:49.283 --> 00:12:51.923
And I like to think that I'm
a refined selection, right.

00:12:52.073 --> 00:12:53.003
That I'm not for everybody.

00:12:53.003 --> 00:12:54.713
No, you're more of a rough diamond.

00:12:54.923 --> 00:12:55.493
Oh, thank you.

00:12:55.673 --> 00:12:55.943
Thank you.

00:12:56.003 --> 00:12:56.213
Yeah.

00:12:56.333 --> 00:12:58.013
And not everybody wants a rough diamond.

00:12:58.493 --> 00:12:59.753
A lot of people want.

00:12:59.983 --> 00:13:03.943
A car that'll start every time and
get you from A to B reliably and,

00:13:03.973 --> 00:13:07.093
and, uh, have conventional appeal.

00:13:07.093 --> 00:13:10.693
But did and yeah, and, and, and a
bit of, um, what do you call it?

00:13:10.693 --> 00:13:11.653
A bit of prestige.

00:13:11.683 --> 00:13:12.643
That's what some people want.

00:13:12.643 --> 00:13:15.043
Did you have the same experience
in your twenties though, of

00:13:15.043 --> 00:13:16.813
having had a gorky teenage years?

00:13:16.813 --> 00:13:17.113
Of course.

00:13:17.113 --> 00:13:18.583
Not doing too well with the ladies.

00:13:18.588 --> 00:13:18.733
No, no.

00:13:18.733 --> 00:13:19.243
I had no idea.

00:13:19.243 --> 00:13:23.473
And then suddenly being like, how am I
with this incredibly attractive woman?

00:13:23.563 --> 00:13:23.923
Yes.

00:13:23.953 --> 00:13:25.603
How did I pull this off one?

00:13:25.603 --> 00:13:26.473
Am I, you know?

00:13:26.563 --> 00:13:26.683
Yes.

00:13:26.713 --> 00:13:31.543
Um, like, and I still, to this
day at 45, don't exactly know.

00:13:31.753 --> 00:13:37.243
I have some more conscious idea of
what my charms might be, but it still

00:13:37.243 --> 00:13:39.223
just, well, you should have, yeah.

00:13:39.283 --> 00:13:40.813
It's still just like.

00:13:42.073 --> 00:13:44.623
One of the few benefits of middle
age is like a greater level of

00:13:44.623 --> 00:13:46.363
self-awareness and self-acceptance.

00:13:46.423 --> 00:13:46.903
Right.

00:13:47.023 --> 00:13:51.313
You know, you don't have to wonder whether
you're good enough as a person anymore.

00:13:51.313 --> 00:13:52.903
Like just, just it.

00:13:52.903 --> 00:13:53.743
It is what it is.

00:13:53.743 --> 00:13:55.148
If you're not good enough,
you'll never be good enough.

00:13:55.208 --> 00:13:57.223
If you're good enough, if you're
good enough, like just, I keep

00:13:57.223 --> 00:14:00.793
going on dates, Sam, and just
going too deep on the first date.

00:14:01.333 --> 00:14:04.213
Oh, that's a like getting
into like trauma stuff.

00:14:04.218 --> 00:14:04.388
Exactly.

00:14:04.388 --> 00:14:05.623
That's exactly what I would do.

00:14:05.623 --> 00:14:06.913
Oh yeah.

00:14:07.393 --> 00:14:10.393
It's, um, can I advise you, I'm
sitting here extremely single while

00:14:10.393 --> 00:14:11.833
we have this attraction discussion.

00:14:11.863 --> 00:14:13.273
I'm glad you've mentioned this, right?

00:14:13.603 --> 00:14:18.573
Because two things we, we need
to, like, this conversation is

00:14:18.573 --> 00:14:20.073
different when you're single, right?

00:14:20.073 --> 00:14:20.913
That's the first thing.

00:14:20.913 --> 00:14:24.033
But the second thing is the real reason
we're talking about this, the hook

00:14:24.033 --> 00:14:28.275
for me is at the end of that last pod
you said, we started talking about,

00:14:28.275 --> 00:14:29.505
I dunno how we got onto it, right?

00:14:29.535 --> 00:14:32.535
But dip back into the last episode
to refresh your memory if you want.

00:14:32.535 --> 00:14:35.565
It's in that last five
minutes, 10 minutes, and then.

00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:43.358
I you said, am I destined to be alone
because I get put off too easily,

00:14:43.358 --> 00:14:44.858
basically was the thing you said?

00:14:44.948 --> 00:14:45.398
Mm.

00:14:45.578 --> 00:14:48.518
Will I just continually fuck it
up with perfectly good people?

00:14:48.518 --> 00:14:51.008
Because I just don't
seem to have any control.

00:14:51.343 --> 00:14:51.463
I,

00:14:53.498 --> 00:14:55.808
I don't seem to be able to
live by a realistic standard.

00:14:56.138 --> 00:14:58.103
And the woman I was
talking about, Sam mm-hmm.

00:14:58.183 --> 00:14:59.498
I sent the episode to her.

00:14:59.528 --> 00:14:59.768
Mm-hmm.

00:15:00.008 --> 00:15:01.598
And she's not really
talking to me at the moment.

00:15:01.718 --> 00:15:01.838
Mm-hmm.

00:15:02.078 --> 00:15:05.558
But she gave it a heart, as in
she might have actually listened.

00:15:06.188 --> 00:15:07.088
So yeah.

00:15:07.118 --> 00:15:11.078
Maybe even this episode is a way to
communicate with that person and that

00:15:11.078 --> 00:15:12.998
person as well as Oh, you lovely audience.

00:15:12.998 --> 00:15:13.448
Of course.

00:15:13.628 --> 00:15:14.258
Absolutely.

00:15:14.258 --> 00:15:23.345
And of course, that person would 100%
understand the pain of feeling as though

00:15:23.885 --> 00:15:29.225
that that true attractiveness is a
complex thing made up of lots of things.

00:15:29.975 --> 00:15:34.445
And then it gets boiled down to
something far too simple and reductive,

00:15:34.775 --> 00:15:37.145
which does so many people dirty.

00:15:38.075 --> 00:15:40.235
You know what I think about
sometimes it's unfair.

00:15:40.265 --> 00:15:42.155
You know what I think
about sometimes, Sam?

00:15:42.245 --> 00:15:42.635
Yeah.

00:15:42.725 --> 00:15:44.645
It's the late sixties
and you're John Lennon.

00:15:44.825 --> 00:15:44.915
Mm-hmm.

00:15:45.515 --> 00:15:48.815
That pretty much means you can sleep
with pretty much anyone you want.

00:15:49.685 --> 00:15:50.075
Sure.

00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:51.455
And, and you choose Yoko Ono.

00:15:51.875 --> 00:15:52.385
Yes.

00:15:52.655 --> 00:15:54.065
I think about that sometimes.

00:15:54.095 --> 00:15:57.090
I think it's a, I think it's
where he wanted and that's,

00:15:57.095 --> 00:15:58.265
and, and in a positive way.

00:15:58.265 --> 00:16:01.085
I think you just found someone who
you thought was so fucking cool.

00:16:01.205 --> 00:16:01.745
Yes.

00:16:01.925 --> 00:16:04.775
That even though you could have
dated a supermodel if they were

00:16:04.775 --> 00:16:06.335
even invented in late sixties.

00:16:06.335 --> 00:16:06.665
Yes.

00:16:06.665 --> 00:16:09.935
You chose No, they had
Twiggy and the Yeah.

00:16:10.775 --> 00:16:12.755
You, yeah.

00:16:12.755 --> 00:16:14.975
You're the ultimate poet
on the planet, right?

00:16:14.975 --> 00:16:15.065
Yeah.

00:16:15.830 --> 00:16:17.030
Apart from maybe Bob Dylan.

00:16:17.030 --> 00:16:17.120
Sure.

00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:18.320
And your Sure.

00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:20.840
You, you're the ultimate
rockstar and all of that.

00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.650
And you choose this unusual
Mick Jagger slight Yeah.

00:16:24.710 --> 00:16:27.200
You know, whatever, whatever you
wanna say about, I'm not saying that

00:16:27.530 --> 00:16:29.120
Yoko is ugly, I'm not saying that.

00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:34.940
I'm just saying he could have gone towards
a conventional and he did beauty and

00:16:35.150 --> 00:16:37.280
taken his pick and he chose Yoko Oro.

00:16:37.280 --> 00:16:37.730
Why?

00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:39.110
Yeah, because they vibed.

00:16:39.350 --> 00:16:42.380
And when I think about this person
who I sent the podcast to mm-hmm.

00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:43.425
We vibed, you know?

00:16:43.425 --> 00:16:43.585
Yes.

00:16:43.585 --> 00:16:46.610
Like we were hanging out was fantastic.

00:16:46.700 --> 00:16:49.400
It was really special.

00:16:49.400 --> 00:16:52.580
And we just got each
other and all that stuff.

00:16:52.580 --> 00:16:52.970
That's right.

00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.000
But I balked and said, I can't do this.

00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.890
'cause I wasn't sure about the attraction.

00:16:58.100 --> 00:16:58.880
Oh yeah.

00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:01.940
Look, I, and I'm gonna be honest
with you, I've judged you for this.

00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:07.370
Uh, but the truth is, and we'll get
into this, that I too have experienced

00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.630
this, of suddenly finding someone not.

00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.210
At all when I felt quite the
opposite, not long before the ick.

00:17:17.270 --> 00:17:19.160
Oh, that's what the kids
talk about is the ick.

00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:19.700
The ick.

00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:23.390
And just catching people in the
sudden wrong light, the wrong angle.

00:17:23.390 --> 00:17:23.420
Oh.

00:17:23.450 --> 00:17:24.890
And just losing it.

00:17:24.890 --> 00:17:27.530
I lost, I lost another
great woman back in 2020.

00:17:27.590 --> 00:17:27.680
Mm-hmm.

00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.230
When I caught her on a
strange angle in a bathroom.

00:17:30.290 --> 00:17:32.120
Oh, I lost, yeah.

00:17:32.390 --> 00:17:35.540
Another great woman when I saw a photo
of her parents and thought, wow, if

00:17:35.540 --> 00:17:39.530
you end up looking like that, I can't
stick around for man, another 30 years.

00:17:39.560 --> 00:17:39.890
Okay.

00:17:39.890 --> 00:17:40.220
Yeah.

00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:40.970
Tick, tick, tick.

00:17:40.970 --> 00:17:43.460
Like, just, just moments.

00:17:43.490 --> 00:17:45.980
And then the kids are really into the ick.

00:17:45.980 --> 00:17:47.720
They, they just, they talk about it.

00:17:47.750 --> 00:17:49.520
Once they get the ick, they're out.

00:17:49.520 --> 00:17:50.300
And do you know what?

00:17:51.020 --> 00:17:56.180
I identify with a lot of moments from
like, you know, crossover youth culture

00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:58.370
from like the last few years in fact.

00:17:59.210 --> 00:18:02.960
You know, I don't wanna boast, but I feel
like I'm on a wavelength to a degree.

00:18:03.020 --> 00:18:03.350
Right.

00:18:03.350 --> 00:18:06.485
Because there's like that 2020 year
gap, and I feel like a lot of the shit

00:18:06.485 --> 00:18:07.845
they're talking about is do familiar with.

00:18:07.845 --> 00:18:09.860
I go, okay, with my 16-year-old kid.

00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:10.460
Yeah, I can go.

00:18:10.465 --> 00:18:11.330
Okay.

00:18:11.330 --> 00:18:13.280
You, we, we, we can see eye to eye.

00:18:13.340 --> 00:18:14.390
Does she talk about the ick?

00:18:14.810 --> 00:18:16.370
No, I don't talk to her about dating.

00:18:16.375 --> 00:18:16.880
No, no, no, no.

00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:18.050
But does she ever No, no, no.

00:18:18.050 --> 00:18:18.565
Think of anything.

00:18:18.565 --> 00:18:18.845
No, no.

00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:19.130
Yeah.

00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:19.940
Let's be fair.

00:18:19.940 --> 00:18:21.530
Let's, that's, let's, let's avoid it.

00:18:21.890 --> 00:18:24.110
But did have you heard
her mention the ick?

00:18:24.170 --> 00:18:26.570
No, because I remember seeing the,
when when I talk about kids, I'm

00:18:26.570 --> 00:18:28.520
talking about people who are like 27.

00:18:28.700 --> 00:18:29.900
Oh yeah, no, of course, of course.

00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:30.560
Yeah.

00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:35.750
And I think, but I will say this, that
one of the things from youth discourse

00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:39.050
that I've most strongly related to
in recent years is the ick, right?

00:18:39.050 --> 00:18:47.750
Because I can remember feeling that
way almost all the time about everyone,

00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:51.680
no matter how perfect you feel the
ick all the time about everyone.

00:18:51.980 --> 00:18:55.700
Well, no, anyone that
I was close to, right?

00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:56.060
Yeah.

00:18:56.060 --> 00:18:57.950
So the, the ick is only strong.

00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.010
If you are already close.

00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:03.350
So that's a really important thing.

00:19:04.550 --> 00:19:08.180
It's basically, yeah, I think that
probably the most foundational piece

00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:14.450
of like life experience I can offer
here is I don't get particularly

00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:16.910
turned on or turned off by strangers.

00:19:17.270 --> 00:19:22.100
It's, it's when it's up close
that the strongest attraction and

00:19:22.100 --> 00:19:24.260
the strongest repulsion occurs.

00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:25.220
Yeah.

00:19:25.220 --> 00:19:25.820
Up close.

00:19:26.120 --> 00:19:31.820
I mean, like the irony for me is I can put
myself together pretty well these days.

00:19:31.820 --> 00:19:31.910
Mm-hmm.

00:19:32.150 --> 00:19:35.360
With a couple of different outfits
and look okay on the street.

00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:35.870
Yep.

00:19:36.050 --> 00:19:39.650
But if you want to catch me like
behind closed doors, it's not that

00:19:39.650 --> 00:19:41.330
hard to catch me on a pretty bad angle.

00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:44.180
And so what you are saying is, and
get the ick, like if women acted the

00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:46.250
way you did, you'd never get any.

00:19:46.580 --> 00:19:51.770
Well, I've got a friend who's
a perfectionist about women and

00:19:51.770 --> 00:19:55.970
he goes to the gym four times
a week, runs and eats her.

00:19:56.390 --> 00:19:57.770
The vegan diet.

00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:59.060
So he is willing to earn it.

00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:00.265
You are saying he owns it, right?

00:20:00.365 --> 00:20:02.450
He earns it, he earns the perfectionism.

00:20:02.810 --> 00:20:02.960
Mm-hmm.

00:20:02.990 --> 00:20:07.340
And then he dates more conventionally
attractive women than who I date, but

00:20:07.340 --> 00:20:10.580
I don't want to be in the, does he have
average tastes, if you see what I mean?

00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:14.240
Is he like a bit, is he a bit normative?

00:20:14.750 --> 00:20:15.290
Is it a bit narrow?

00:20:15.290 --> 00:20:15.470
Yeah.

00:20:15.825 --> 00:20:19.040
It's, it's, the photos I've seen
of women who's dating tend to

00:20:19.040 --> 00:20:20.660
be conventionally attractive.

00:20:20.660 --> 00:20:21.170
Yes.

00:20:21.350 --> 00:20:24.830
Whereas I am more drawn to that woman
in the corner cutting themselves.

00:20:24.835 --> 00:20:25.065
Sure.

00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:25.460
Sure.

00:20:25.490 --> 00:20:29.810
So I, I want conventionally attractive
plus really dark and fucked up.

00:20:29.870 --> 00:20:30.470
Mm.

00:20:30.530 --> 00:20:32.630
Like, but maybe not even that convention.

00:20:32.630 --> 00:20:35.180
Maybe unconventionally attractive mm-hmm.

00:20:35.270 --> 00:20:36.260
And dark and fucked up.

00:20:36.260 --> 00:20:36.350
Mm-hmm.

00:20:36.350 --> 00:20:39.200
And then that's who I actually
date for the most part.

00:20:39.230 --> 00:20:39.680
Yeah.

00:20:39.740 --> 00:20:43.370
You know, and this person who, I
can't name who, who, who might or

00:20:43.370 --> 00:20:44.690
might not listen to this episode.

00:20:44.780 --> 00:20:44.990
Mm.

00:20:45.020 --> 00:20:48.020
It's probably in that category a
bit, you know, traumatized a bit.

00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:48.620
Mm-hmm.

00:20:48.860 --> 00:20:52.280
Got some demons and
experienced rejection and.

00:20:52.820 --> 00:20:53.330
Yeah.

00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:57.650
And being on, being on let's, you
know, let's say I felt when I was

00:20:57.650 --> 00:21:04.307
16, 18, 20, actually, no, not 20, but
when I was 16, 18, I felt that this

00:21:04.307 --> 00:21:06.227
world of attraction was very unfair.

00:21:06.827 --> 00:21:11.858
I felt that it was weighted firmly
against me, that the prevailing

00:21:11.858 --> 00:21:14.048
standards did not include me whatsoever.

00:21:14.198 --> 00:21:18.068
And this might sound strange coming
from like a pale skinned, uh, tall

00:21:18.098 --> 00:21:24.218
male, but like, I felt that I was
too skinny, far too skinny, like

00:21:24.218 --> 00:21:27.218
not a little bit far too much.

00:21:27.848 --> 00:21:32.528
And I also felt that I, that I lacked
the sort of tone and athleticism

00:21:32.528 --> 00:21:38.138
that was the convention, and I
didn't have the right skin tone.

00:21:38.168 --> 00:21:40.328
Like I didn't, you know,
tan particularly easily.

00:21:40.496 --> 00:21:45.731
and I was not really at home with sporting
sort of activities, which I think were.

00:21:47.081 --> 00:21:50.621
Pretty much hand in hand with conventional
male attractiveness in the nineties.

00:21:51.251 --> 00:21:56.411
And I don't just mean the Gods like
Michael Jordan, I just mean conventional

00:21:56.411 --> 00:22:02.111
Australian attractiveness and masculinity
included a level of sporting prowess and

00:22:02.351 --> 00:22:04.871
you know, having a tight rig, I think.

00:22:05.141 --> 00:22:05.711
Yeah.

00:22:06.041 --> 00:22:07.241
Is that where it still is?

00:22:07.271 --> 00:22:08.171
Yeah, I'd say so.

00:22:08.171 --> 00:22:08.231
Yeah.

00:22:08.321 --> 00:22:09.731
Like for the mainstream?

00:22:10.091 --> 00:22:11.111
Yeah, for the Normies.

00:22:11.141 --> 00:22:13.991
I mean, I watched a complete
unknown last night and Timothy

00:22:13.991 --> 00:22:16.001
Shama say Surname Shaima.

00:22:16.001 --> 00:22:16.331
Yeah.

00:22:16.481 --> 00:22:20.531
Timothy Shaima is a skinny, skinny
guy in that movie and he's like the

00:22:20.531 --> 00:22:22.121
hottest guy on the planet right now.

00:22:22.121 --> 00:22:23.321
So maybe it's shifted.

00:22:23.531 --> 00:22:27.401
Well, yeah, someone said he is, and a
bunch of people believed it, but, but

00:22:27.401 --> 00:22:28.811
I think, I think he's universally cons.

00:22:28.841 --> 00:22:30.881
I mean, I'm said I'm not gonna
rob anyone of their agency,

00:22:30.881 --> 00:22:33.461
but are they actually frothing?

00:22:33.491 --> 00:22:34.031
I dunno.

00:22:34.061 --> 00:22:38.321
It's like, were people actually
frothing for Damon Alban Like, yes,

00:22:38.711 --> 00:22:40.901
but is it also a mass hysteria thing?

00:22:41.336 --> 00:22:42.506
Yes, it's a bit of both.

00:22:42.506 --> 00:22:43.106
Do you know what I mean?

00:22:43.196 --> 00:22:43.586
Yeah.

00:22:44.036 --> 00:22:47.756
It's like, oh, so you're saying
some, you're saying we can't actually

00:22:47.756 --> 00:22:49.316
decide who we're attracted to.

00:22:49.316 --> 00:22:52.916
We're just told who told,
who we're attracted to.

00:22:52.916 --> 00:22:53.066
Okay.

00:22:53.066 --> 00:22:58.496
So some of it's incredibly conscious and
overt, like you will find this person hot.

00:22:58.556 --> 00:23:00.776
Like there, there's a lot of that
sort of signaling that goes on.

00:23:01.076 --> 00:23:04.646
Then there's some much more subtle
stuff that goes on, uh, you know,

00:23:04.826 --> 00:23:08.396
sort of skinner and positive and
negative reinforcement that goes on.

00:23:08.516 --> 00:23:13.516
And then there's stuff which like
superficially passes for dating and

00:23:13.516 --> 00:23:18.646
relationship advice, which is also
normative and is helping to define the

00:23:18.646 --> 00:23:20.236
parameters of attraction to a degree.

00:23:20.236 --> 00:23:20.446
Right.

00:23:20.446 --> 00:23:25.546
So not image-based, like word-based
stuff, which is influencing us and

00:23:25.606 --> 00:23:27.736
we're also being influenced by.

00:23:28.261 --> 00:23:32.221
Things that are not, are only tangentially
related to like the appearance of human

00:23:32.221 --> 00:23:36.511
beings, such as design and interior
design, but, and the kind of house

00:23:36.511 --> 00:23:38.671
people live in and the car they drive.

00:23:38.671 --> 00:23:41.761
There's like so many layers to this,
but isn't it, whether they drive a

00:23:41.761 --> 00:23:45.691
car or not as a man is, is it, is
it uncaught if a man doesn't drive?

00:23:45.961 --> 00:23:50.731
You know, it's, there's all these layers
to it and some of it's economic, your

00:23:50.731 --> 00:23:53.731
ability to provide some of it's prestige.

00:23:53.731 --> 00:23:57.026
Does this, is this person admired and
respected by others but isn't others?

00:23:57.026 --> 00:23:59.586
But isn't the ick more vis
visceral than that, isn't it?

00:23:59.591 --> 00:24:00.781
The I is on so many levels.

00:24:00.786 --> 00:24:01.771
The IIC isn't the ick.

00:24:01.771 --> 00:24:03.781
Like, I've caught you in a bad angle.

00:24:04.171 --> 00:24:07.051
I, okay now I can't see the same anymore.

00:24:07.051 --> 00:24:08.231
That's sometimes it's a visual.

00:24:08.231 --> 00:24:09.031
I've a few of those.

00:24:09.031 --> 00:24:12.271
Sometimes it's a visual,
but other times it's no.

00:24:12.631 --> 00:24:15.031
There's no visual data
here that's putting me off.

00:24:15.151 --> 00:24:15.451
Yeah.

00:24:15.451 --> 00:24:17.191
But there's behavioral data that's me off.

00:24:17.616 --> 00:24:19.501
But it's like this guy can't
pick me up in his car 'cause

00:24:19.501 --> 00:24:20.611
he doesn't have his license.

00:24:20.641 --> 00:24:21.421
He's hot.

00:24:21.511 --> 00:24:22.951
That's been your story till recently.

00:24:22.981 --> 00:24:23.611
Absolutely.

00:24:23.641 --> 00:24:23.971
Yeah.

00:24:24.031 --> 00:24:27.901
There there was a girl who was into
me and I was into her and she was

00:24:27.901 --> 00:24:29.911
like, but I'm an old fashioned girl.

00:24:30.061 --> 00:24:32.641
You need to pick me up in your
car and take me on a date.

00:24:33.091 --> 00:24:35.761
And I'm like, that doesn't sound like
the kind of person you would date.

00:24:36.091 --> 00:24:37.381
Uh, absolutely not.

00:24:37.441 --> 00:24:39.271
It was a weird situation.

00:24:39.271 --> 00:24:41.161
It was a hospitality situation.

00:24:41.221 --> 00:24:41.311
Oh yeah.

00:24:42.001 --> 00:24:43.111
But here's the thing.

00:24:43.321 --> 00:24:45.391
You know what this person is
really worth talking about?

00:24:45.421 --> 00:24:46.536
Because it's one of these things.

00:24:47.431 --> 00:24:50.101
That I was drawn to
her in spite of myself.

00:24:50.106 --> 00:24:50.531
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:50.551 --> 00:24:53.281
So is that in fact an auth,
more authentic attraction than

00:24:53.281 --> 00:24:54.691
the like, this feels right.

00:24:54.751 --> 00:24:55.891
This ticks all my boxes.

00:24:55.981 --> 00:24:57.001
This is very me.

00:24:57.181 --> 00:24:59.161
I actually think, yeah,
that's that real raw.

00:24:59.221 --> 00:25:00.331
It's that raw.

00:25:00.331 --> 00:25:02.881
Like, dammit, there's something
about it we've gotta get together.

00:25:02.881 --> 00:25:04.561
But I just find her really annoying.

00:25:04.771 --> 00:25:05.161
Yeah.

00:25:05.161 --> 00:25:05.581
They're the best.

00:25:06.811 --> 00:25:07.471
They're the best.

00:25:07.471 --> 00:25:10.531
Put like a few times, and she
found me intensely annoying too.

00:25:10.561 --> 00:25:10.741
Yeah.

00:25:10.741 --> 00:25:13.651
A few nights with that
person is wonderful, I think.

00:25:13.651 --> 00:25:14.761
But not a relationship.

00:25:14.761 --> 00:25:14.971
No.

00:25:14.971 --> 00:25:17.101
I often think, did it actually.

00:25:17.491 --> 00:25:21.991
Would've gotten to a really good place
because we annoyed the absolute shit out

00:25:21.991 --> 00:25:23.911
of each other and would fight at work.

00:25:24.031 --> 00:25:24.841
Oh, that's hot.

00:25:24.931 --> 00:25:28.141
It is kind of, I'm getting, yeah, getting
a bit steamy just thinking about it.

00:25:28.141 --> 00:25:28.591
Me too.

00:25:28.711 --> 00:25:31.951
And she would, she would, I know,
seriously, can I indulge this?

00:25:32.761 --> 00:25:37.681
So it's the, it's the year of
our Lord, 2005 or six maybe.

00:25:37.741 --> 00:25:42.241
And I'm working at the, the Cumberland
Resort in lawn, in the conference center.

00:25:43.141 --> 00:25:47.221
And this person's also working there, and
I think they were also working at another

00:25:47.221 --> 00:25:49.021
restaurant occasionally that I worked at.

00:25:49.021 --> 00:25:53.881
So it was like very much a just
loose hospitality rats around lawn.

00:25:54.031 --> 00:25:55.501
Um, there was a lot of bed hopping.

00:25:55.561 --> 00:25:58.591
I was not, I tended to
be just a monogamist.

00:25:58.681 --> 00:26:05.374
Um, but this person was, I would say, you
know, definitely easily an eight, right?

00:26:05.374 --> 00:26:06.094
Physically.

00:26:06.784 --> 00:26:10.264
But then I would get, I at one
stage would've given her a one for

00:26:10.264 --> 00:26:12.784
personality and like personal politics.

00:26:13.144 --> 00:26:15.184
But then where I actually ended up is.

00:26:15.529 --> 00:26:20.779
I actually think her per personality was
actually oddly even more engaging than

00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:22.579
her appearance in the, in the long run.

00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:27.259
And so she would say these incredibly
conservative, like she grew up

00:26:27.259 --> 00:26:31.609
in like a fairly straight laced,
buttoned up, conservative sort of

00:26:31.609 --> 00:26:34.579
suburb with high social prestige.

00:26:34.729 --> 00:26:35.629
This is so steamy.

00:26:36.049 --> 00:26:38.479
She's like just wrong side of the tracks.

00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:40.909
Look, she went to the right schools.

00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:41.179
Yeah.

00:26:41.179 --> 00:26:43.849
And you are just this wild Harry Krishna.

00:26:43.909 --> 00:26:45.199
She could not work me out.

00:26:45.434 --> 00:26:46.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:46.249 --> 00:26:49.759
I was not like any of the dudes that she
would ever choose to spend time with.

00:26:49.789 --> 00:26:49.909
Yeah.

00:26:50.149 --> 00:26:51.139
And vice versa.

00:26:51.199 --> 00:26:51.529
Yeah.

00:26:51.589 --> 00:26:54.469
I'm like, on paper, you
annoy the crap outta me.

00:26:54.469 --> 00:26:57.559
And in reality you do and
you express these incredibly.

00:26:58.024 --> 00:27:01.894
Backward, profoundly
un feminist sentiments.

00:27:02.044 --> 00:27:04.054
Like, I wanna be treated like a princess.

00:27:04.144 --> 00:27:05.224
I want a man to pick me.

00:27:05.224 --> 00:27:07.324
That's a whole movement on the
apps now you realize, oh my

00:27:07.324 --> 00:27:08.344
God, she was ahead of her time.

00:27:08.374 --> 00:27:13.444
Yeah, that's like tread wives
and also just women who Yes.

00:27:13.624 --> 00:27:16.714
Uh, want you to book the date and
make all the, make all the decisions.

00:27:16.804 --> 00:27:17.344
Do you know what?

00:27:17.344 --> 00:27:17.794
No, I'm not.

00:27:17.794 --> 00:27:20.224
That's, I can't tell you how
common that is on dating yesterday.

00:27:20.224 --> 00:27:22.354
I'm not gonna fault that
you make some decisions.

00:27:22.354 --> 00:27:22.804
God damnit.

00:27:22.804 --> 00:27:24.529
No, but you tell I'm not,
I'm not against that.

00:27:24.529 --> 00:27:25.354
You do it all.

00:27:25.354 --> 00:27:27.634
No, it's, it's kind of creepy.

00:27:27.634 --> 00:27:29.794
It's kind of very like 1950s.

00:27:30.244 --> 00:27:30.274
Mm.

00:27:30.274 --> 00:27:31.414
I'm helpless.

00:27:31.534 --> 00:27:32.464
It's that vibe.

00:27:32.464 --> 00:27:33.154
It's lazy.

00:27:33.664 --> 00:27:34.024
Come on.

00:27:34.024 --> 00:27:38.944
We've had however many decades of feminism
can't we just work out together, which

00:27:39.004 --> 00:27:40.954
like venue we're going to for a date.

00:27:41.211 --> 00:27:42.501
can't we have a back and forth?

00:27:42.501 --> 00:27:44.781
Do you really need me to
take the reins on this?

00:27:44.781 --> 00:27:46.701
Uh, I think, okay, put it this way.

00:27:46.941 --> 00:27:49.521
Sometimes you just want someone
to decide what we're having for

00:27:49.521 --> 00:27:50.451
dinner because you're tired.

00:27:50.451 --> 00:27:51.171
Yeah, that's fine.

00:27:51.231 --> 00:27:51.591
Right?

00:27:52.011 --> 00:27:54.741
It's hot when someone
else just sorts shit out.

00:27:54.741 --> 00:27:55.251
Sometimes.

00:27:55.251 --> 00:27:55.911
Can we agree?

00:27:55.911 --> 00:27:56.841
Like, is it crazy?

00:27:57.021 --> 00:28:00.531
But, but if it's taken to extremes,
I want you to That's true.

00:28:00.561 --> 00:28:01.821
I was at dinner last night.

00:28:01.851 --> 00:28:02.001
Yeah.

00:28:02.061 --> 00:28:06.081
With someone who knows a lot about
food, Uhhuh and three other people.

00:28:06.141 --> 00:28:08.481
Uh, yeah, there was three
o or the rest of us.

00:28:08.511 --> 00:28:08.601
Yeah.

00:28:08.601 --> 00:28:10.311
And she went up and ordered all the food.

00:28:10.431 --> 00:28:10.641
Yeah.

00:28:10.821 --> 00:28:13.311
And that was No, no, that was, I'm hot.

00:28:13.341 --> 00:28:13.791
That was hot.

00:28:13.791 --> 00:28:14.961
That is a good strong's.

00:28:14.961 --> 00:28:15.501
A strong move.

00:28:15.531 --> 00:28:16.101
I'm into that.

00:28:16.131 --> 00:28:19.311
But no, it's, um, yeah, it's part
of a, how many people, if you ever

00:28:19.311 --> 00:28:20.781
go on a dating app, you'll see it.

00:28:20.781 --> 00:28:22.581
Sam, like how many did she order?

00:28:22.581 --> 00:28:22.821
Four?

00:28:23.061 --> 00:28:24.321
There was four of us in total.

00:28:24.591 --> 00:28:24.891
Sorry.

00:28:24.891 --> 00:28:26.001
Huge move to just order for something.

00:28:26.001 --> 00:28:27.081
I made that a bit convoluted.

00:28:27.086 --> 00:28:27.531
But, but anyway.

00:28:27.531 --> 00:28:28.101
Go, go, go.

00:28:28.251 --> 00:28:28.551
Yeah.

00:28:28.611 --> 00:28:29.301
I mean, anyway, go on.

00:28:29.361 --> 00:28:32.421
If it's, it's not innocent, it's actually.

00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:34.800
oh no, it's a posture,
it's a cynical posture.

00:28:34.800 --> 00:28:35.955
And the more extreme, is
that what you're saying?

00:28:35.955 --> 00:28:36.225
Version?

00:28:36.295 --> 00:28:36.585
Yeah.

00:28:36.780 --> 00:28:38.490
They tend to be anti-vaxxers.

00:28:38.730 --> 00:28:39.060
Oh no.

00:28:39.060 --> 00:28:42.370
And they tend and they wanna be in
their feminine polarity, want in by

00:28:42.370 --> 00:28:43.320
embrace, embrace their divine feminine.

00:28:43.325 --> 00:28:43.545
Yeah.

00:28:43.550 --> 00:28:43.560
Yeah.

00:28:43.560 --> 00:28:46.620
And you to be in your masculine
polarity, which means, and

00:28:46.620 --> 00:28:48.570
they also don't get vaccinated.

00:28:48.570 --> 00:28:51.780
And it's this whole bizarre
online, well, it's not just online,

00:28:51.780 --> 00:28:53.010
these are women in the world.

00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:56.160
Uh, and they often live down
the peninsula of course.

00:28:56.370 --> 00:28:57.930
And they, there's a level of privilege.

00:28:57.930 --> 00:28:58.110
Yeah.

00:28:58.110 --> 00:29:01.650
They want you to take over everything
from the start, other than why

00:29:01.650 --> 00:29:02.760
I've end up chatting to them.

00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:03.780
Desperation, I guess.

00:29:03.780 --> 00:29:07.140
But, uh, because they seem
to be chronically available.

00:29:07.860 --> 00:29:08.610
Yeah.

00:29:09.060 --> 00:29:11.160
It's, it's, it's, yeah.

00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:11.790
There's so many.

00:29:11.790 --> 00:29:12.900
Do some of them believe it?

00:29:13.170 --> 00:29:13.740
Totally.

00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:16.740
And do others just write that in the bio?

00:29:16.770 --> 00:29:18.810
'cause they think that's
what you put there?

00:29:19.710 --> 00:29:25.470
I don't know, man, because this door of
like, do we think we're attracted to,

00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.620
it's an authentically, it's anti feminism.

00:29:29.595 --> 00:29:32.775
It's like, oh no, it is, it's, it's,
it's consciously anti-feminist.

00:29:32.775 --> 00:29:35.865
It's can consciously anti feminism
and yes, if you are into feminism

00:29:35.865 --> 00:29:38.175
as a man, that's not hot to me.

00:29:38.205 --> 00:29:39.465
It's only a small percentage.

00:29:39.465 --> 00:29:43.305
So do you know what, like, I I
kind of get it if a woman says, if

00:29:43.305 --> 00:29:46.275
a man bangs on about his feminist
credentials that it's deeply sad.

00:29:46.275 --> 00:29:47.445
I don't claim to be a feminist.

00:29:47.475 --> 00:29:49.155
'cause I find that's a bit sickening.

00:29:49.155 --> 00:29:50.505
No, I think it's a weird,
I think it's a weird move.

00:29:50.505 --> 00:29:52.875
Could be disproved
throughout my adult life.

00:29:52.875 --> 00:29:54.345
So what's the point of saying it?

00:29:54.345 --> 00:30:00.555
No, and don't at me for like, don't, don't
come, don't come at me with like, hang on.

00:30:01.125 --> 00:30:06.405
I believe that there should be equality
between genders and sexes, so that

00:30:06.405 --> 00:30:07.665
technically makes me a feminist.

00:30:07.695 --> 00:30:08.025
Yeah.

00:30:08.055 --> 00:30:08.605
No, no, no, no, no.

00:30:08.605 --> 00:30:08.865
Shut up.

00:30:08.865 --> 00:30:12.585
I I even It just makes you, I even cr
egalitarian, even cr I even cringe.

00:30:12.795 --> 00:30:13.065
Yeah.

00:30:13.095 --> 00:30:14.775
Back when I still had a Facebook account.

00:30:15.450 --> 00:30:20.070
I, um, during the Me Too movement, I
even did a post about, oh, I should

00:30:20.070 --> 00:30:22.980
have been listening and paid more
attention or something, and I cringe

00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:26.490
that I even bothered to fucking
say anything at that point rather

00:30:26.490 --> 00:30:27.630
than just shutting the fuck up.

00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:31.770
You know, like I'm trying to put my
little hand up and say, yeah, I'm an ally.

00:30:31.950 --> 00:30:33.690
And it's like, just shut up, Joe.

00:30:33.930 --> 00:30:37.530
No, I, no, no, but, but I will say this,
it's important for, it is important

00:30:37.530 --> 00:30:43.950
for people outside of a group to speak
up and echo the claims being made.

00:30:44.130 --> 00:30:50.370
So, for example, during the Civil Rights
movement, it was critically important that

00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:56.880
non-black people marched and were hosed
by the cops and had dogs set on them.

00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.240
And were arrested and
were profiled by the FBI.

00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:03.969
the oppression needed to
be acknowledged as a shame.

00:31:03.969 --> 00:31:04.179
Yeah.

00:31:04.179 --> 00:31:07.299
But that's a bit different from someone
who's been a bit of an asshole to

00:31:07.299 --> 00:31:11.319
women his whole adult life jumping on
Facebook and saying, yeah, I understand.

00:31:12.459 --> 00:31:15.039
Like, I don't, I've been
enough of an asshole.

00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:15.234
It's unearned.

00:31:15.239 --> 00:31:15.729
It's unearned.

00:31:15.729 --> 00:31:15.879
Yeah.

00:31:15.939 --> 00:31:17.319
I've been enough of an asshole.

00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:17.409
Yes.

00:31:17.439 --> 00:31:20.679
I've heard enough women that yes,
I agree and treated them badly

00:31:20.679 --> 00:31:23.139
for their appearance or whatever.

00:31:23.199 --> 00:31:23.349
Sure.

00:31:23.919 --> 00:31:26.229
Or for getting the ick and
then just breaking up with 'em.

00:31:26.229 --> 00:31:28.239
So in other words, it would
be profoundly hypocritical.

00:31:28.239 --> 00:31:29.259
It's too hypocritical.

00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:30.339
I should have just shut up.

00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.059
But in theory, you have no
argument against equality, right?

00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:37.899
Oh, like I was raised by a feminist Yes.

00:31:37.899 --> 00:31:38.799
And a Marxist.

00:31:39.009 --> 00:31:39.399
Yeah.

00:31:39.399 --> 00:31:42.189
Like my mom lived with Helen
Garner in the seventies.

00:31:42.249 --> 00:31:42.909
Oh, that's awesome.

00:31:42.909 --> 00:31:43.874
That is fucking awesome.

00:31:43.954 --> 00:31:44.434
I got cred.

00:31:45.339 --> 00:31:46.599
I was raised by a feminist.

00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:48.909
I have no, is your mom a side
character in like the last days of

00:31:48.909 --> 00:31:52.899
Shane knew, or like, uh, she, she's
sort of in Monkey Grip somewhere.

00:31:52.899 --> 00:31:53.289
Monkey Grip.

00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:56.199
She was living with Helen Gardner
while she wrote Monkey Grip.

00:31:56.469 --> 00:31:58.209
Speaking of a complicated feminist.

00:31:58.794 --> 00:32:01.344
Helen Garner, I think would
be enjoying this conversation.

00:32:01.524 --> 00:32:02.244
But anyway, yeah.

00:32:02.484 --> 00:32:03.054
Just as an aside.

00:32:03.084 --> 00:32:05.064
Um, but yeah, so yeah, I think that, yeah.

00:32:05.064 --> 00:32:09.564
Yes, I believe in quality of pay and
all the basic qualities of feminism.

00:32:09.564 --> 00:32:09.654
Sure.

00:32:09.654 --> 00:32:13.134
But I have treated women badly
enough that I can't claim to be.

00:32:13.134 --> 00:32:15.894
If I was a better feminist, I
wouldn't have been such an asshole.

00:32:15.894 --> 00:32:19.344
Well, of course, the irony of what you're
saying is you are willing to acknowledge

00:32:19.344 --> 00:32:21.804
that, that you have committed wrongs.

00:32:21.804 --> 00:32:23.484
I mean, that is, but I'm
literally the first step.

00:32:23.484 --> 00:32:27.564
My mom is a hardcore feminist and I'm
attracted to pretty hardcore feminists.

00:32:27.564 --> 00:32:29.034
I saw one in the pub the other night.

00:32:29.034 --> 00:32:32.364
An ex Well, what you're saying is when
you encounter a woman that disavows

00:32:32.364 --> 00:32:34.854
feminism, it is a massive turnoff.

00:32:35.154 --> 00:32:38.994
This woman I saw in the pub the other
night, Sam, I dated her for about six

00:32:38.994 --> 00:32:40.734
months after my big breakup, Uhhuh.

00:32:41.004 --> 00:32:44.904
And, uh, I would say at the
time I thought she was maybe not

00:32:44.904 --> 00:32:46.284
that conventionally attractive.

00:32:46.284 --> 00:32:46.404
Sure.

00:32:46.884 --> 00:32:50.304
And I saw her in the pub the other
night, and I was struck by the thing

00:32:50.304 --> 00:32:54.864
that I was struck by in the first
place, which is she is striking.

00:32:55.419 --> 00:32:56.859
Striking is where it's at.

00:32:56.859 --> 00:32:57.009
Yeah.

00:32:57.009 --> 00:33:00.729
Like she's, if you want my opinion,
like a manish, a Manish kind of woman.

00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:01.029
Oh bro.

00:33:01.059 --> 00:33:02.589
Like got some masculine energy.

00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:02.889
Yes.

00:33:02.949 --> 00:33:07.509
Hardcore leftist and hardcore
feminist man, very strong,

00:33:07.509 --> 00:33:08.319
can flatten you on fight.

00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:11.169
Um, a little bit autistic
and like unfeeling.

00:33:11.679 --> 00:33:12.459
It was great.

00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:16.119
Oh, and then I saw her the other
night and she, she doesn't hate me.

00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.299
She was very warm towards me
and I thought, oh wow, this

00:33:19.299 --> 00:33:20.919
is an ex that doesn't hate me.

00:33:20.919 --> 00:33:21.819
Like, how wonderful.

00:33:21.819 --> 00:33:21.969
Hang on.

00:33:21.969 --> 00:33:22.749
How long did you go out?

00:33:22.929 --> 00:33:23.364
Six months.

00:33:24.189 --> 00:33:27.249
And at the end, she didn't
wanna say, I love you to me.

00:33:27.309 --> 00:33:27.549
No.

00:33:27.849 --> 00:33:30.429
And she didn't want me to be
able to call her my girlfriend.

00:33:30.579 --> 00:33:30.819
No.

00:33:30.939 --> 00:33:34.869
And on the basis of those two
facts, I called it off break.

00:33:34.869 --> 00:33:36.369
In hindsight, who cares?

00:33:36.369 --> 00:33:37.899
Dude, you are having a good time.

00:33:37.899 --> 00:33:38.979
She's great company.

00:33:39.009 --> 00:33:41.229
Like who cares about the girlfriend label?

00:33:41.229 --> 00:33:43.059
Who cares about whether
they're in love with you?

00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:47.049
Being in love is one of the most horrific
things that can happen to anyone.

00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:50.859
And it's a bourgeois construct anyway,
which is what she would probably say.

00:33:51.069 --> 00:33:51.669
Yeah.

00:33:51.669 --> 00:33:54.789
Like who knows about being, uh, at 45?

00:33:54.789 --> 00:33:57.009
I'm baffled about the concept of in love.

00:33:57.069 --> 00:34:01.539
I keep going to weddings where I'm like,
are these people in love on the day?

00:34:01.539 --> 00:34:04.929
You, maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm like,
I think a lot of people on the day they

00:34:04.929 --> 00:34:07.989
get married, frankly, they're frazzled.

00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:10.089
They're overstimulated.

00:34:10.089 --> 00:34:10.329
Yeah.

00:34:10.629 --> 00:34:12.579
They don't know how they
feel about anything.

00:34:12.849 --> 00:34:14.289
Like, oh, you've done it, haven't you?

00:34:14.289 --> 00:34:14.829
Yeah, I have.

00:34:14.919 --> 00:34:15.189
Yeah.

00:34:15.249 --> 00:34:18.249
And I look back, I look at the
photos of that day and I'm like, I

00:34:18.279 --> 00:34:22.839
was, I was tired, but I was also.

00:34:23.214 --> 00:34:27.774
Elated and it felt very much like the
right decision and I was very glad.

00:34:28.224 --> 00:34:33.624
But it felt I was exhausted because it
had been just the process of organizing.

00:34:33.984 --> 00:34:37.944
But also I was going into that
marriage feeling very inadequate.

00:34:38.394 --> 00:34:41.394
And will I measure up?

00:34:41.694 --> 00:34:43.224
Will I be a good husband?

00:34:43.494 --> 00:34:44.664
Will I be a good father?

00:34:45.054 --> 00:34:51.174
Will I, will I be able to do what
I didn't do all the other times,

00:34:52.494 --> 00:34:54.894
which I've already done in that
relationship at that point, you know?

00:34:54.894 --> 00:34:55.074
Yeah.

00:34:55.104 --> 00:34:57.354
Twice of just like totally withdraw.

00:34:57.804 --> 00:34:57.984
Yeah.

00:34:57.984 --> 00:35:01.044
And just disappear emotionally and
good on you for rolling the dice.

00:35:01.044 --> 00:35:01.944
How did it work out?

00:35:02.514 --> 00:35:07.044
Well, not, not not so good, but I
mean, two lovely kids, you know?

00:35:07.044 --> 00:35:07.224
Yeah.

00:35:07.224 --> 00:35:08.454
It's all worth it for the kids.

00:35:08.454 --> 00:35:08.754
It is.

00:35:08.994 --> 00:35:10.824
But, and then can I ask, yeah.

00:35:10.914 --> 00:35:16.044
I don't wanna get too personal here, but
did you find that you had a more lasting

00:35:16.044 --> 00:35:18.779
attraction to the woman you married
than anyone else you'd come across?

00:35:18.779 --> 00:35:18.979
Yes.

00:35:19.179 --> 00:35:19.339
Absolutely.

00:35:19.339 --> 00:35:19.539
Yeah.

00:35:19.699 --> 00:35:20.754
That was my experience too.

00:35:20.754 --> 00:35:21.414
Like it didn't.

00:35:21.744 --> 00:35:25.704
You said at the start, it's capricious
and it, and it goes away sometimes, but

00:35:25.704 --> 00:35:31.219
with the long term, my only real long term
like mind, it came back so many times.

00:35:31.219 --> 00:35:31.459
Yeah.

00:35:31.459 --> 00:35:32.139
It kept coming back.

00:35:32.274 --> 00:35:35.694
And you know what I realized,
this will literally never go away.

00:35:35.874 --> 00:35:38.064
It will, it will keep coming back.

00:35:38.334 --> 00:35:38.784
Yeah.

00:35:38.784 --> 00:35:41.419
When I occasionally see the
mother of my children still,

00:35:41.419 --> 00:35:42.744
it's like profound and li Yeah.

00:35:42.744 --> 00:35:45.654
At this point it's like
10 to one on anyone else.

00:35:46.074 --> 00:35:46.224
Yeah.

00:35:46.224 --> 00:35:49.344
I wouldn't say that, but I
still can appreciate the beauty

00:35:49.344 --> 00:35:50.454
of the mother of my children.

00:35:50.634 --> 00:35:51.954
Like, it's like, no, she's hot.

00:35:52.044 --> 00:35:52.404
Yeah.

00:35:52.434 --> 00:35:52.644
Yeah.

00:35:52.699 --> 00:35:54.204
I, I can still see that.

00:35:54.204 --> 00:35:58.194
And even if we're not seeing eye to eye,
which you know, isn't a massive problem

00:35:58.224 --> 00:36:02.946
for us these days, I still can think
what a beautiful woman and Oh, and good

00:36:02.946 --> 00:36:05.291
personal qualities as well and yeah.

00:36:05.391 --> 00:36:06.456
And like, yeah.

00:36:06.516 --> 00:36:11.436
So I guess, don't you, do you find a woman
more attractive as you get to know them?

00:36:11.436 --> 00:36:11.736
Right?

00:36:11.736 --> 00:36:13.136
So when you were saying
before about, you know, this.

00:36:13.611 --> 00:36:17.391
Person you found striking early
on, but not necessarily hot.

00:36:17.631 --> 00:36:17.931
Right.

00:36:17.961 --> 00:36:23.151
It's a difference between, I, I'm sexually
attracted to them and my friends down at

00:36:23.151 --> 00:36:24.621
the cricket club will think they're hot.

00:36:25.041 --> 00:36:28.791
I dated someone a few years ago where I
take, took her down to the cricket club

00:36:28.791 --> 00:36:30.441
and then like she's like a knockout.

00:36:30.621 --> 00:36:30.921
Yes.

00:36:30.981 --> 00:36:34.281
And all the guys are like acting
weird around her, you know?

00:36:34.281 --> 00:36:34.461
Yeah.

00:36:34.461 --> 00:36:38.541
I've dated those women too, but
that's kind of like, it's actually

00:36:38.541 --> 00:36:39.771
a bit terrifying to be dead.

00:36:39.771 --> 00:36:40.116
It's less good.

00:36:40.251 --> 00:36:41.151
It's terrifying.

00:36:41.271 --> 00:36:41.481
Yeah.

00:36:41.751 --> 00:36:43.791
It's like, this is stressful.

00:36:43.791 --> 00:36:48.261
Like this, this woman is like
turning on every guy on the street.

00:36:48.291 --> 00:36:54.441
Now as it turns out, a number of people
have come out of the woodwork one by

00:36:54.441 --> 00:36:57.441
one and said that they find my wife hot.

00:36:57.621 --> 00:36:57.981
Right.

00:36:58.521 --> 00:37:01.161
And did in some cases before I met her.

00:37:01.191 --> 00:37:02.151
Like Right.

00:37:02.601 --> 00:37:04.551
And I'm like, oh, right.

00:37:05.061 --> 00:37:08.061
So there I was feeling
like you'd found a she.

00:37:08.601 --> 00:37:09.801
She was not giving out.

00:37:11.181 --> 00:37:13.911
You know, was not passing, was
not passing out vibes Right.

00:37:14.181 --> 00:37:15.261
To, to people.

00:37:15.261 --> 00:37:18.711
But I, I would still put her head
and shoulders above in any room.

00:37:18.771 --> 00:37:19.131
Right.

00:37:19.521 --> 00:37:26.751
Everyone else, but is not, not
necessarily, you know, as I said to

00:37:26.811 --> 00:37:31.257
the girl in Lauren who we had, I had
the mutual annoyance with, God, Erin,

00:37:31.257 --> 00:37:36.447
last night, you a bubble Uber the
boys, and you, it was flies on a turd.

00:37:36.447 --> 00:37:38.577
And she's like, I'm the turd
in this charming analogy.

00:37:38.577 --> 00:37:38.877
Am I?

00:37:39.177 --> 00:37:41.487
And I'm like, oh my God.

00:37:42.387 --> 00:37:47.307
It was a very sudden, that was the
moment she said the words, am I the

00:37:47.307 --> 00:37:51.057
turd in this charming analogy with
just the right level of contempt?

00:37:51.117 --> 00:37:51.387
Yeah.

00:37:51.387 --> 00:37:51.627
That's hard.

00:37:51.627 --> 00:37:54.207
And I'm like, you are smart.

00:37:54.777 --> 00:37:56.157
You are cutting.

00:37:56.217 --> 00:37:56.607
Yeah.

00:37:56.637 --> 00:37:59.427
You see through me, you realize
there was more to her you, there's

00:37:59.427 --> 00:38:05.427
more to you and there's more to
me, you realizing, and this is.

00:38:05.877 --> 00:38:07.647
Weirdly interesting.

00:38:07.767 --> 00:38:11.277
But like, I was just like, and
yet I will never act upon this

00:38:11.547 --> 00:38:16.197
because I felt locked in to what I
So what, you guys never hooked up?

00:38:16.197 --> 00:38:16.407
No.

00:38:16.677 --> 00:38:21.057
Ah, I was assuming this steamy
story ended in the boudoir.

00:38:21.627 --> 00:38:25.707
No, but I wanted to just close off
this thought about what, about my wife?

00:38:25.707 --> 00:38:32.607
That there was never this, I need
to worry about attractions, friends.

00:38:32.637 --> 00:38:33.747
I need to worry about friends.

00:38:33.747 --> 00:38:33.867
Oh.

00:38:34.642 --> 00:38:38.457
'cause I, because I've had this in
the past, like I said, I put her

00:38:38.547 --> 00:38:40.797
like 10, 10 to one on everybody else.

00:38:41.217 --> 00:38:46.197
But I, I have in the past had
more of a worrying or annoying

00:38:46.197 --> 00:38:49.737
situation where people are like,
oh bro, your girlfriend's hot.

00:38:49.737 --> 00:38:50.877
And I'm just like, you know what?

00:38:51.447 --> 00:38:52.227
You can shut up.

00:38:52.317 --> 00:38:55.047
Like you think you are
paying me a compliment here.

00:38:55.797 --> 00:38:55.857
Yeah.

00:38:55.857 --> 00:38:57.117
I mean, I had, um, yeah.

00:38:57.267 --> 00:39:01.227
Everyone will remain nameless from my
end with these people I'm talking about.

00:39:01.227 --> 00:39:03.987
But the one from a few years ago
that really messed me up mm-hmm.

00:39:04.467 --> 00:39:07.167
Down at the cricket club, she
met one of my good friends.

00:39:07.167 --> 00:39:07.407
Yeah.

00:39:07.707 --> 00:39:11.847
And then afterwards, and this
is a guy who will tend to just

00:39:11.847 --> 00:39:13.167
be charming towards women.

00:39:13.317 --> 00:39:13.707
Yeah.

00:39:13.797 --> 00:39:15.507
But he also just does it with everyone.

00:39:15.507 --> 00:39:16.442
He's just got a bit Oh no.

00:39:16.442 --> 00:39:17.367
He, he's just got charm.

00:39:17.367 --> 00:39:17.817
He's, yeah.

00:39:17.937 --> 00:39:18.087
Yeah.

00:39:18.087 --> 00:39:22.827
And she said, well, I'd be watching out
for him the way he was talking to me.

00:39:22.827 --> 00:39:22.857
Oh.

00:39:23.757 --> 00:39:26.922
And she, he'd spoken to her for five
minutes and he would've, which he is

00:39:26.922 --> 00:39:28.437
way, he would've flirted with her.

00:39:28.437 --> 00:39:29.307
He would've flirted with her.

00:39:29.307 --> 00:39:31.347
But he, he would also flirt
with, he'd flirt with anyone.

00:39:31.347 --> 00:39:31.737
With Freak.

00:39:31.887 --> 00:39:32.247
Yeah.

00:39:32.307 --> 00:39:32.667
Yeah.

00:39:32.667 --> 00:39:33.267
Like, yeah.

00:39:33.327 --> 00:39:37.107
And he like, and it just,
but it made me uneasy.

00:39:37.107 --> 00:39:40.437
And then it, when the breakup
happened, it should, it created, yeah.

00:39:40.647 --> 00:39:42.027
Resentment I had.

00:39:42.057 --> 00:39:44.727
Because what she's actually saying
there is, you shouldn't trust me.

00:39:45.537 --> 00:39:46.077
That's right.

00:39:46.287 --> 00:39:49.737
It's a huge tell on yourself,
like you just confessed there.

00:39:49.977 --> 00:39:50.337
Yeah.

00:39:50.367 --> 00:39:54.537
What you should say, if you wanna mention
an attractiveness to anyone else at all,

00:39:54.537 --> 00:39:56.577
which is apparently allowing the third.

00:39:56.637 --> 00:39:58.227
That book's been around for a long time.

00:39:58.647 --> 00:40:00.837
Um, and of course now we have
ethical non-monogamy and all

00:40:00.837 --> 00:40:02.037
this, but Oh, it's everywhere.

00:40:02.037 --> 00:40:03.327
Especially around these parts.

00:40:03.417 --> 00:40:03.537
Yeah.

00:40:03.597 --> 00:40:07.947
But in theory, it's always existed
as an option, but that it's a good

00:40:07.947 --> 00:40:15.147
piece of advice in theory that as a
relationship, uh, if it's got, if it's

00:40:15.147 --> 00:40:19.137
based on any firm foundations and to
people have secure attachment, that

00:40:19.137 --> 00:40:23.552
they should be able to acknowledge
attraction to other people without it

00:40:23.552 --> 00:40:26.667
causing, you know, any undue disruption.

00:40:27.297 --> 00:40:30.657
And more importantly, that it's
actually necessary to do that

00:40:30.987 --> 00:40:33.507
because the alternative is to claim.

00:40:33.897 --> 00:40:38.727
Or to feel obliged to maintain a
false claim, which is that you do not

00:40:38.727 --> 00:40:41.757
experience attractiveness to anyone
else because that would be disloyal.

00:40:42.147 --> 00:40:44.847
So then when you do experience
attractiveness to other people,

00:40:45.477 --> 00:40:51.087
I experienced this as an, an
intensely guilt inducing thing.

00:40:51.147 --> 00:40:51.597
Yeah.

00:40:51.867 --> 00:40:56.187
And fear inducing because I was
betraying this person by finding

00:40:56.187 --> 00:40:59.937
someone else attractive and
therefore I would be betrayed.

00:41:00.207 --> 00:41:00.657
Yeah.

00:41:00.657 --> 00:41:03.927
And funding, I mean, I think in
the case of that person, yes.

00:41:03.927 --> 00:41:05.127
I couldn't trust her.

00:41:05.367 --> 00:41:05.457
Mm-hmm.

00:41:05.817 --> 00:41:08.712
And I've all, an older guy said this to
me, I don't know what you think about

00:41:08.712 --> 00:41:13.572
this piece of wisdom, but that if you're
feeling, like, if you're feeling jealous

00:41:13.572 --> 00:41:19.662
and distrustful, there's probably a reason
because in my long, long-term relationship

00:41:19.662 --> 00:41:22.872
with the mother of my children, I never
had a single moment of that in nine years.

00:41:22.872 --> 00:41:25.452
I always completely trusted that person.

00:41:25.947 --> 00:41:27.177
And I was Okay.

00:41:27.177 --> 00:41:29.337
So you experienced secure
attachment more or less.

00:41:29.547 --> 00:41:29.787
Yeah.

00:41:29.787 --> 00:41:32.487
That was the great mystery
of my five years of therapy.

00:41:32.547 --> 00:41:34.947
Sam, open-ended, I'll
probably still go back.

00:41:35.037 --> 00:41:35.307
Yeah.

00:41:35.337 --> 00:41:36.777
Just don't like a billing system.

00:41:36.837 --> 00:41:41.187
But, um, uh, the great mystery was
this nine years where I had secure

00:41:41.187 --> 00:41:43.197
attachment, the rest of it made sense.

00:41:43.197 --> 00:41:44.487
I was a fucking nightmare.

00:41:44.492 --> 00:41:44.592
Mm-hmm.

00:41:45.057 --> 00:41:47.457
And the last 10 years of my
life of insecure attachment

00:41:47.457 --> 00:41:48.447
has made perfect sense.

00:41:48.447 --> 00:41:51.897
But the mystery was how did I
drop into this secure attachment

00:41:52.287 --> 00:41:53.727
for this period of time?

00:41:53.727 --> 00:41:57.477
Um, well, I've heard, I've heard it from
the experts that occasionally people

00:41:57.477 --> 00:42:01.672
with insecure attachment styles like
you and me, you know, I'm profoundly,

00:42:01.672 --> 00:42:07.042
uh, uh, usually avoidant, but I
will experience anxious attachment.

00:42:07.222 --> 00:42:11.842
Uh, when the other person finally
goes, you know what, dude?

00:42:11.842 --> 00:42:12.382
Fuck you.

00:42:12.442 --> 00:42:13.162
I give up.

00:42:13.402 --> 00:42:15.082
Then the anxious attachment comes in.

00:42:15.082 --> 00:42:15.412
Right.

00:42:15.862 --> 00:42:18.562
But basically the second I felt
that other people were really

00:42:18.562 --> 00:42:20.512
counting on me emotionally, I felt.

00:42:21.412 --> 00:42:24.382
Inadequate and unable
to really answer that.

00:42:24.832 --> 00:42:31.972
And I had, but a intense desire to form
lasting deep and meaningful relationships.

00:42:32.272 --> 00:42:36.262
But the second that all the ingredients
were there and the commitment

00:42:36.262 --> 00:42:38.842
was there, I felt a profound
terror at not living up to it.

00:42:38.842 --> 00:42:40.132
And so that's avoidant attachment.

00:42:40.132 --> 00:42:40.432
Right.

00:42:40.665 --> 00:42:44.445
but like I said, I experienced both the
anxiety, the anxious, and the avoidant.

00:42:44.895 --> 00:42:48.615
And in your case, I think if
you've mostly been, I'm anxious.

00:42:48.615 --> 00:42:49.425
Anxious, yeah.

00:42:49.485 --> 00:42:50.625
I'm like a textbook.

00:42:50.745 --> 00:42:51.075
Right.

00:42:51.105 --> 00:42:53.355
Extreme case of anxious attachment.

00:42:53.355 --> 00:42:55.785
So, so in theory, you should
have been freaking out on a

00:42:55.785 --> 00:42:57.915
regular basis about your wife.

00:42:58.695 --> 00:42:59.445
Yeah.

00:42:59.505 --> 00:43:00.615
Yes, exactly.

00:43:00.945 --> 00:43:03.225
But you didn't, especially 'cause she's
a just a and I don't just, I don't just

00:43:03.225 --> 00:43:08.355
mean cheating the idea that she does not
love you or does not find you enough.

00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:08.715
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:08.715 --> 00:43:09.555
That didn't trouble you.

00:43:09.660 --> 00:43:10.275
No, no.

00:43:10.275 --> 00:43:13.365
I just felt completely secure with
that person for, for nine years.

00:43:13.395 --> 00:43:16.185
Well, the experts tell me that
even people that are as like.

00:43:17.685 --> 00:43:20.415
Look, I would not put as 10, outta
10 on the dysfunctional here, but

00:43:20.415 --> 00:43:21.825
like, we're definitely over a five.

00:43:21.825 --> 00:43:22.185
Right.

00:43:22.349 --> 00:43:26.999
in terms, you know, from childhood reasons
and events in our early twenties as well.

00:43:26.999 --> 00:43:27.299
Right.

00:43:27.329 --> 00:43:27.509
Yeah.

00:43:27.509 --> 00:43:32.189
So there's like a, there's parallels,
but occasionally people like you

00:43:32.189 --> 00:43:39.929
and me are capable of choosing to a
degree, unconsciously the right person

00:43:40.049 --> 00:43:48.179
who will more or less be able to
not negate whole hand, whole wholly,

00:43:48.179 --> 00:43:52.709
but like basically occasionally we
luck out and make the right choice

00:43:52.769 --> 00:43:55.679
and don't feel that insecurity much.

00:43:56.279 --> 00:43:59.099
And I have experienced
this a couple of times.

00:44:00.149 --> 00:44:03.209
Um, and that's where we're
lucky to end up with children.

00:44:03.869 --> 00:44:03.959
Yes.

00:44:03.959 --> 00:44:08.969
'cause I could be so debilitated by my
anxious attachment and my weird mm-hmm.

00:44:09.209 --> 00:44:10.079
Perfectionism.

00:44:10.484 --> 00:44:14.294
That, for example, the last 10
years of my life, I've never been

00:44:14.294 --> 00:44:16.244
in a position to create a child.

00:44:16.244 --> 00:44:16.334
Yes.

00:44:17.084 --> 00:44:22.814
So, like, I could have been like that
terminally, but I actually got lucky for

00:44:23.294 --> 00:44:27.194
a period of time, my late twenties, early
thirties, and luckily got a couple of

00:44:27.194 --> 00:44:31.454
kids out of it, and it was fortuitous.

00:44:31.469 --> 00:44:34.544
And, but, but now the point of
this conversation, if it's gonna

00:44:34.544 --> 00:44:37.574
be therapeutic, and we do try and
have therapeutic chats, is, mm-hmm.

00:44:38.054 --> 00:44:38.564
Okay.

00:44:38.564 --> 00:44:41.924
I've got my kids, they're, they're nearly
one's a teenager, one's nearly a teenager.

00:44:41.924 --> 00:44:44.414
There's absolutely no need for you
to do any reproduction at this point.

00:44:44.414 --> 00:44:44.804
Yeah.

00:44:44.804 --> 00:44:46.694
I've, I've had the snip,
I'm not having more kids.

00:44:46.904 --> 00:44:49.694
What the fuck am I trying to
achieve with relationships?

00:44:49.694 --> 00:44:52.499
And when it comes to
attraction, can I, mm-hmm.

00:44:53.984 --> 00:44:58.664
Am I willing to, or can I possibly
be willing to compromise or mm-hmm.

00:44:58.904 --> 00:45:00.554
Go past a few ick moments.

00:45:00.554 --> 00:45:00.644
Mm-hmm.

00:45:00.884 --> 00:45:03.614
And assume that they're having
ick moments towards me as well.

00:45:03.644 --> 00:45:03.974
Yes.

00:45:03.974 --> 00:45:07.394
Don't you think that's transformative
to make that same assumption?

00:45:07.394 --> 00:45:07.664
Yeah.

00:45:07.669 --> 00:45:12.344
Just, just can I, 'cause if I don't,
Sam, I think, well this is what you

00:45:12.344 --> 00:45:13.634
said to me on the couch last time.

00:45:13.664 --> 00:45:13.964
Yeah.

00:45:13.969 --> 00:45:17.204
I'm, I'm am, am I destined to die
alone and live a lonely life after?

00:45:17.204 --> 00:45:17.264
Yeah.

00:45:17.489 --> 00:45:20.984
I just had a very, it's not over
yet, but I've just had a very lonely

00:45:20.984 --> 00:45:23.684
cold winter lying in a bed on my own.

00:45:23.714 --> 00:45:24.134
Yeah, man.

00:45:24.314 --> 00:45:29.624
And it's like, if I could have been
willing to compromise, I could have

00:45:29.624 --> 00:45:31.244
had someone pretty great in my life.

00:45:32.054 --> 00:45:32.294
Yes.

00:45:32.294 --> 00:45:34.064
And I wasn't.

00:45:34.094 --> 00:45:37.754
And I didn't, and I was very alone.

00:45:38.114 --> 00:45:40.454
Now that seems to be a bit of an error.

00:45:40.634 --> 00:45:42.884
Like I feel like I
probably fucked that up.

00:45:42.914 --> 00:45:44.774
Tactical, strategic, whatever.

00:45:44.924 --> 00:45:45.284
Yeah.

00:45:45.284 --> 00:45:47.624
Well, like there is no
strategy, there is no plan.

00:45:47.654 --> 00:45:49.784
It's just like, nah, I'm not feeling it.

00:45:50.174 --> 00:45:50.594
You know?

00:45:50.744 --> 00:45:51.134
Yeah.

00:45:51.554 --> 00:45:52.394
So you just did.

00:45:52.859 --> 00:45:57.719
You're just a, uh, you know, I think
you're just a typical human being in that

00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:02.129
sense that you want the thing and you,
but you struggle to put in the effort.

00:46:02.189 --> 00:46:04.499
And I'm going, it's not just
compromising on looks, it's

00:46:04.499 --> 00:46:06.839
also compromising on behaviors.

00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:10.829
Like yes, of course I had a falling
out with this person about watching

00:46:10.829 --> 00:46:11.999
the test cricket and texting.

00:46:11.999 --> 00:46:12.059
Yeah.

00:46:12.059 --> 00:46:13.619
I was exact thing I was thinking of.

00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:14.369
I read your mind.

00:46:14.429 --> 00:46:19.709
I'm like, you were unable to accept that
a person would find that annoying that you

00:46:19.709 --> 00:46:21.989
wanna watch Tess Cricket for hours on end.

00:46:22.169 --> 00:46:24.974
Yeah, I've said, I said that on
the show a couple of years ago.

00:46:24.974 --> 00:46:25.589
It's a deal breaker.

00:46:25.649 --> 00:46:27.359
I said that on the show
a couple of years ago.

00:46:27.359 --> 00:46:28.229
It's a deal breaker.

00:46:28.229 --> 00:46:29.789
And then it happened in real life.

00:46:29.819 --> 00:46:31.379
And I, which I knew it would.

00:46:31.529 --> 00:46:32.399
In fact, I was amazed.

00:46:32.399 --> 00:46:33.869
It hadn't already, if I'm honest.

00:46:33.869 --> 00:46:39.749
But then I told myself a narrative, which
is if the attraction levels were higher

00:46:39.869 --> 00:46:41.939
mm-hmm I would've turned off the cricket.

00:46:42.149 --> 00:46:43.919
But I don't know if that's true.

00:46:43.919 --> 00:46:44.094
No, it's not true.

00:46:44.129 --> 00:46:46.694
I could be sitting there with
Lucci and just be like, absolutely.

00:46:46.739 --> 00:46:48.329
You know what Monica, do you know what?

00:46:48.389 --> 00:46:49.949
I'm gonna watch this next session?

00:46:50.009 --> 00:46:51.239
Because, can I just say this?

00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:52.319
It doesn't matter how hot.

00:46:52.904 --> 00:46:56.564
The other person is, or how
hot you are, you both need

00:46:56.564 --> 00:46:57.854
the fuck away from each other.

00:46:57.974 --> 00:47:00.074
You both need solitude, right?

00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:00.209
Mm-hmm.

00:47:00.294 --> 00:47:05.864
You are going to kill the attraction
very fast if you don't get a break.

00:47:06.224 --> 00:47:11.480
And us insecure attachment people,
we cannot, the whole point is we

00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:15.410
cannot make up our fucking minds about
whether we want to cling or run away.

00:47:15.770 --> 00:47:19.160
And it's like, well, you
don't, don't do either, right?

00:47:20.060 --> 00:47:25.850
And be, I was gonna say,
be authentically yourself.

00:47:25.850 --> 00:47:30.050
And if that includes watching
cricket, that's okay, but allow

00:47:30.050 --> 00:47:32.900
them to be themselves as well
and go, well, do you know what?

00:47:33.635 --> 00:47:36.095
I find that an odd and selfish
habit, if I'm honest, and

00:47:36.095 --> 00:47:37.205
just allow them to say that.

00:47:37.355 --> 00:47:38.045
Do you know what I mean?

00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:39.595
But the thing is, I just be cool with it.

00:47:39.700 --> 00:47:40.565
I'm like, good.

00:47:40.895 --> 00:47:41.735
What's the big deal?

00:47:41.975 --> 00:47:42.755
Good on me.

00:47:42.755 --> 00:47:45.635
I stuck to my guns and didn't
turn the cricket off that night.

00:47:45.845 --> 00:47:49.920
And then I had endured a long and
lonely winter who's the, but I

00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:50.760
also understand who's the winner?

00:47:50.850 --> 00:47:51.815
Who's the winner here.

00:47:51.815 --> 00:47:54.280
I also think there'll be a lot of men
that will relate to that, but there'll

00:47:54.285 --> 00:47:57.815
also be a lot of women that will
relate to that, who will like, you

00:47:57.815 --> 00:48:01.925
know what there are, I do have some
red flags, and I feel like if they

00:48:01.925 --> 00:48:06.335
won't accept this thing about me, that
it's a critical threat to my autonomy.

00:48:06.335 --> 00:48:08.675
And I really fundamentally
understand that feeling.

00:48:08.675 --> 00:48:10.955
And I do not judge anyone for being.

00:48:11.660 --> 00:48:14.990
Oh my God, you stepped like
two centimeters onto my grass.

00:48:15.020 --> 00:48:17.000
But it's like, it's, you are
gonna try and lock me down.

00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:20.420
It's like, like I get that's if your
partner said, yeah, I don't want

00:48:20.420 --> 00:48:22.100
you to go to band practice tonight.

00:48:22.250 --> 00:48:22.700
Totally.

00:48:22.700 --> 00:48:26.030
Or if they said, uh, I don't like, you
know, I don't like it when you're out

00:48:26.030 --> 00:48:27.620
late with the boys, or I don't like Yeah.

00:48:27.620 --> 00:48:31.130
I don't want you sitting out in
the shed smoke and rollies and Yes.

00:48:31.220 --> 00:48:32.930
You know, listening to music Exactly.

00:48:32.930 --> 00:48:34.190
At 1:00 AM Yes.

00:48:34.250 --> 00:48:36.500
And you'd be like, but I have to
do that, but I have to do that.

00:48:36.860 --> 00:48:37.040
Yeah.

00:48:37.040 --> 00:48:37.250
Yeah.

00:48:37.340 --> 00:48:41.630
Or, or, uh, you know, why do you have
to play video games or, um, yeah,

00:48:41.630 --> 00:48:46.610
see that's one where Yeah, I, yeah, I
can, I don't get the whole video game

00:48:46.610 --> 00:48:49.070
thing so I could be judgy about that.

00:48:49.070 --> 00:48:51.710
Or like, dude, how did you
not compromise on that?

00:48:51.710 --> 00:48:53.270
Hey, let's all just judge all day long.

00:48:53.270 --> 00:48:53.750
You know?

00:48:53.870 --> 00:48:59.840
And, but also, I will say this, don't,
don't make the mistake of going, the

00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:02.810
only way this is gonna work is if
I learn to refrain from judgment.

00:49:02.900 --> 00:49:03.980
It's, it's impossible.

00:49:04.220 --> 00:49:06.410
But what you do is, this is my advice.

00:49:06.815 --> 00:49:11.795
This is, and I'm taking my own fucking
advice as we speak, because I've needed

00:49:11.795 --> 00:49:15.095
to know this more than anybody else.

00:49:16.265 --> 00:49:18.035
The judgments are gonna happen.

00:49:19.295 --> 00:49:23.525
Forgive yourself for having
them and hold them lightly.

00:49:24.935 --> 00:49:30.905
Is this really, you know, and I don't say
disregard your own like strong intuitions.

00:49:30.965 --> 00:49:31.295
Right.

00:49:31.895 --> 00:49:36.935
But God knows my whole life is living
proof of the idea that feelings are

00:49:36.935 --> 00:49:38.765
not a reliable guide to reality.

00:49:38.855 --> 00:49:39.305
Yeah.

00:49:40.355 --> 00:49:49.055
But my whole life is also a testament
equally that one can't decide.

00:49:49.115 --> 00:49:49.565
Oh, okay.

00:49:49.745 --> 00:49:52.235
Facts are a reliable guide to reality.

00:49:52.235 --> 00:49:52.445
It.

00:49:52.445 --> 00:49:53.980
Neither one of the, it
doesn't work like that.

00:49:53.980 --> 00:49:58.175
One of the, one of the, the old elders
in my addiction recovery circles says

00:49:58.175 --> 00:50:00.395
that emotion should be like a, A rudder.

00:50:00.695 --> 00:50:00.875
Yeah.

00:50:00.905 --> 00:50:04.325
The guide you, but your intellect
has to make the decisions.

00:50:04.895 --> 00:50:05.495
Yes.

00:50:05.495 --> 00:50:07.295
And I only sort of understand that.

00:50:07.295 --> 00:50:09.905
I'm happy to relay it on the
show, but I don't fully get that.

00:50:09.935 --> 00:50:12.725
Well, I don't fully distinguish
those two things I used to.

00:50:12.875 --> 00:50:13.235
Right.

00:50:13.235 --> 00:50:14.975
So, you know, thoughts and emotions.

00:50:15.035 --> 00:50:15.395
Yes.

00:50:15.395 --> 00:50:18.395
You're, so, you're aware
of platonic dualism, right?

00:50:18.575 --> 00:50:20.765
Like not really, but I could wing it.

00:50:20.795 --> 00:50:21.755
Well, Cartesian dualism.

00:50:21.755 --> 00:50:25.745
But like the, you know, the ancient Greeks
who, you know, at some point they come

00:50:25.745 --> 00:50:28.895
along and say, okay, reality is twofold.

00:50:29.255 --> 00:50:33.845
There's, there's basically the, the
touchable and the non touchable, right?

00:50:33.905 --> 00:50:35.705
There's the sort of spirit and the flesh.

00:50:35.795 --> 00:50:36.695
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:50:36.725 --> 00:50:37.055
Right.

00:50:37.235 --> 00:50:40.895
And then, so that gives us the doctrine of
the soul and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

00:50:41.135 --> 00:50:45.545
Now, Cartesian dualism,
big problem for science.

00:50:45.635 --> 00:50:47.945
Uh, theoretically it's
been overcome recently.

00:50:48.098 --> 00:50:50.888
basically there is no separation
between mind and body.

00:50:51.068 --> 00:50:53.438
There is no separation
between matter and spirit.

00:50:54.008 --> 00:50:57.608
Uh, there's no separation
between energy and matter.

00:50:57.818 --> 00:50:59.558
It's all made of the same stuff.

00:51:00.188 --> 00:51:05.408
And emotions and deci and rational
decision making and feelings

00:51:06.008 --> 00:51:07.568
are completely inseparable.

00:51:07.568 --> 00:51:08.648
They're all one thing.

00:51:09.128 --> 00:51:13.658
So anyone who spent time in therapy knows
the, the emotions are helping to determine

00:51:13.658 --> 00:51:15.988
the thoughts and the thoughts are helping
to determine the emotions and, okay.

00:51:15.988 --> 00:51:17.918
So you disagree with the elders thesis?

00:51:17.918 --> 00:51:18.878
No, I think they're right.

00:51:18.878 --> 00:51:21.248
Emotions can be just a
rudder, just a guide.

00:51:21.308 --> 00:51:21.848
Yes.

00:51:21.878 --> 00:51:24.968
I think they're right though,
to formulate it as a partnership

00:51:24.968 --> 00:51:26.018
between the two things.

00:51:26.018 --> 00:51:33.338
Because in truth we do, I can be a proper
rugged mon and go, there is no dualism.

00:51:33.338 --> 00:51:34.628
And you are, you are of that.

00:51:34.898 --> 00:51:35.798
There is no separate.

00:51:35.798 --> 00:51:37.058
Yeah, I'm a non-duality guy.

00:51:37.058 --> 00:51:37.833
You're a non-duality guy.

00:51:37.833 --> 00:51:39.938
I don't talk about it much on the
show 'cause it's so hard to explain.

00:51:39.938 --> 00:51:40.838
It's so hard to explain.

00:51:40.838 --> 00:51:41.138
Right.

00:51:41.138 --> 00:51:42.548
But look up non-duality.

00:51:42.578 --> 00:51:43.208
Non-duality.

00:51:43.268 --> 00:51:45.098
I said that to my daughter
the other day, other week.

00:51:45.398 --> 00:51:49.358
And your non, you believe in
a doctrine of non-duality.

00:51:49.358 --> 00:51:52.643
IE There is no division within
reality into two different things.

00:51:52.643 --> 00:51:52.653
Yeah.

00:51:52.653 --> 00:51:54.068
The separate self is an illusion.

00:51:54.068 --> 00:51:55.388
The separate self is an illusion.

00:51:56.498 --> 00:51:58.808
And you haven't come to this conclusion.

00:51:59.153 --> 00:52:01.913
Intellectually, you
had it as a revelation.

00:52:01.943 --> 00:52:02.093
Yeah.

00:52:02.093 --> 00:52:04.943
I've experienced it many
times in meditation.

00:52:05.333 --> 00:52:08.963
So I think it's, I think it is
the key to this whole thing,

00:52:09.893 --> 00:52:12.983
attraction, mental wellbeing.

00:52:13.073 --> 00:52:14.723
It's all of a piece, right?

00:52:14.723 --> 00:52:19.643
So like how do we get to an authentic
place where we're actually choosing

00:52:19.643 --> 00:52:24.233
the right people and we're not being
misled by false notions or fears

00:52:24.233 --> 00:52:29.933
and avoidances or clinging to false
checklists and writing people off for

00:52:29.933 --> 00:52:32.093
the, for insufficiently good reasons.

00:52:32.363 --> 00:52:35.603
So leaving morality and judgment,
and I ought to be a better person

00:52:35.603 --> 00:52:37.073
leaving all that out of it, right?

00:52:37.493 --> 00:52:40.763
We're all gonna be superficial,
judgmental bitches and we just,

00:52:40.763 --> 00:52:44.633
we accept it and we're gonna be
subject to that from other people.

00:52:44.933 --> 00:52:48.683
So a degree of honesty about that, right?

00:52:48.743 --> 00:52:50.363
I think you're fairly
comfortable with that.

00:52:50.963 --> 00:52:54.413
And are you comfortable with allowing
others to have their incorrect

00:52:54.413 --> 00:52:55.733
views and just sitting with them?

00:52:55.733 --> 00:52:55.973
Right.

00:52:55.973 --> 00:52:57.713
This has been a huge pro struggle for me.

00:52:58.553 --> 00:53:05.183
So for you, the non-duality thing, the,
the non, the, the illusion of the separate

00:53:05.183 --> 00:53:07.433
self, this isn't like a cute idea.

00:53:07.823 --> 00:53:10.013
You've experienced this as
a profound reality, right?

00:53:10.073 --> 00:53:12.953
No, I think it's the single most
important thing I've ever learned.

00:53:13.103 --> 00:53:15.383
The single most important
thing you've ever learned.

00:53:15.383 --> 00:53:18.653
If I could, if I was gonna die
tonight and had to pass one thing

00:53:18.653 --> 00:53:23.243
onto my two daughters, I'd say this
separate self is an illusion if, and

00:53:23.243 --> 00:53:24.773
don't worry so much for that reason.

00:53:24.773 --> 00:53:25.673
Don't worry so much.

00:53:25.943 --> 00:53:29.333
If you take just one
thing from me, it's this.

00:53:29.423 --> 00:53:29.873
Yes.

00:53:29.873 --> 00:53:32.993
And if you look up non-duality
or talk to chat GPT about it,

00:53:32.993 --> 00:53:34.493
it'll explain it to you perfectly.

00:53:35.093 --> 00:53:37.223
It's, it's just, I don't stray.

00:53:37.283 --> 00:53:39.053
Especially not on an attraction episode.

00:53:39.053 --> 00:53:39.683
I don't wanna stray.

00:53:39.683 --> 00:53:40.018
No, no, no.

00:53:40.018 --> 00:53:40.463
I'll tell you why.

00:53:40.463 --> 00:53:46.883
It's closely connected all the times when
the turnoff, the sudden ick has occurred.

00:53:47.243 --> 00:53:47.973
This has got to do.

00:53:49.418 --> 00:53:50.888
With the illusion of the separate self.

00:53:50.888 --> 00:53:51.038
Yeah.

00:53:51.038 --> 00:53:56.198
The self is suddenly incredibly rarefied
and just like, mm, solid, isn't it?

00:53:56.468 --> 00:53:56.498
Mm.

00:53:56.558 --> 00:53:59.648
Like, Ooh, I'm over here and
that icky thing is over there.

00:53:59.708 --> 00:54:04.028
And yeah, I don't want them
to ever cross this boundary.

00:54:04.598 --> 00:54:10.358
But also what you don't realize is in
that same moment, you think you've put

00:54:10.928 --> 00:54:16.178
a defense between you and the bad thing,
but what's actually happened is you've

00:54:16.238 --> 00:54:19.808
built four walls and a roof around
yourself and there's no door, right?

00:54:19.868 --> 00:54:20.318
Yeah.

00:54:20.378 --> 00:54:24.631
So the second you go, safety
consists in separateness, which is,

00:54:24.631 --> 00:54:27.416
this is a very profound instinct,
like at a base level, right?

00:54:28.046 --> 00:54:30.626
So I'm not faulting anyone for
feeling this way because I felt this

00:54:30.626 --> 00:54:32.576
way, like literally a million times.

00:54:33.446 --> 00:54:34.886
I can't trust anyone else.

00:54:35.276 --> 00:54:39.566
And they can't trust me and
there's no way to overcome this.

00:54:40.076 --> 00:54:43.106
That's what I felt last night
watching a complete unknown.

00:54:43.196 --> 00:54:43.676
Mm-hmm.

00:54:43.676 --> 00:54:46.196
Is what's Bob Dylan trying to achieve?

00:54:46.196 --> 00:54:47.546
Young, early twenties.

00:54:47.546 --> 00:54:48.086
Bob Dylan.

00:54:48.086 --> 00:54:48.356
Yeah.

00:54:48.416 --> 00:54:50.816
He's trying to achieve separation.

00:54:51.086 --> 00:54:51.446
Yes.

00:54:51.446 --> 00:54:53.876
From all these, from the folk scene.

00:54:53.906 --> 00:54:53.996
Yes.

00:54:53.996 --> 00:54:58.391
From the, the hangers on, from the, you
know, like he's just trying to, he's

00:54:58.391 --> 00:54:59.756
gonna drive to distinguish himself.

00:54:59.756 --> 00:55:03.776
He's trying to achieve perfect
freedom while also being famous.

00:55:03.866 --> 00:55:05.786
He felt very impatient with other people.

00:55:05.876 --> 00:55:06.566
Yeah.

00:55:06.566 --> 00:55:11.186
And I, I didn't, I only mentioned that
because I deeply like, this guy's my hero.

00:55:11.186 --> 00:55:13.676
I've got his picture above my, my bed.

00:55:13.766 --> 00:55:13.886
Mm-hmm.

00:55:13.886 --> 00:55:16.256
And he was an iconic dude that Yeah.

00:55:16.256 --> 00:55:19.046
Have the pick of the iconic genius.

00:55:19.076 --> 00:55:19.346
Yeah.

00:55:19.346 --> 00:55:19.356
Yeah.

00:55:19.406 --> 00:55:23.096
Complete individual going for
a complete individualism Yes.

00:55:23.156 --> 00:55:23.936
Is my hero.

00:55:24.206 --> 00:55:24.626
Yes.

00:55:24.776 --> 00:55:27.956
So that doesn't align that well with
the separate self as an illusion.

00:55:27.956 --> 00:55:28.346
It sure does.

00:55:28.346 --> 00:55:32.306
And it doesn't make you, when you don't
have the talent of a Bob Dylan, it just

00:55:32.306 --> 00:55:34.046
means you're a bit of a lonely asshole.

00:55:34.106 --> 00:55:34.316
Yes.

00:55:35.171 --> 00:55:37.031
You know, any gold records.

00:55:37.031 --> 00:55:40.301
But don't you think Bob Dylan experienced
an enormous amount of loneliness too,

00:55:40.691 --> 00:55:46.961
and that it's, I think it's clear in
his writing that he, he, uh, okay.

00:55:46.961 --> 00:55:49.991
So in his, well, interestingly, I
watched that film with friend of

00:55:49.991 --> 00:55:51.701
the show, Liv, who's a psychologist.

00:55:51.701 --> 00:55:52.061
Yes.

00:55:52.121 --> 00:55:53.681
And she said at the end, go on.

00:55:54.041 --> 00:55:55.421
What was his childhood like?

00:55:56.291 --> 00:55:56.301
Mm-hmm.

00:55:56.326 --> 00:56:01.211
Because, because him and, uh, Liv and
my daughter, who watched the show,

00:56:01.301 --> 00:56:04.271
watched the movie with me, were both
like, why is he such an asshole?

00:56:04.271 --> 00:56:04.361
Mm-hmm.

00:56:04.601 --> 00:56:06.671
And I was just there going, he's my hero.

00:56:07.361 --> 00:56:10.571
I, I think there's, if you want like
my, I'm not really a proper Dylan

00:56:10.571 --> 00:56:14.021
Ologist, but I have read, I've read
the anthology volume one went for God's

00:56:14.021 --> 00:56:15.581
sake, is he ever gonna do a volume two?

00:56:16.091 --> 00:56:19.331
Uh, it was a really good book that
Dylan wrote about his early years.

00:56:19.361 --> 00:56:19.541
Yeah.

00:56:19.541 --> 00:56:20.171
It's amazing.

00:56:20.171 --> 00:56:21.131
It's, it's a great read.

00:56:21.136 --> 00:56:22.416
It's a, it's a fucking masterpiece.

00:56:22.486 --> 00:56:23.351
It's a real page turn.

00:56:23.406 --> 00:56:23.696
Yeah.

00:56:23.701 --> 00:56:23.921
Yeah.

00:56:23.921 --> 00:56:24.371
The broken.

00:56:24.371 --> 00:56:24.731
Right.

00:56:25.271 --> 00:56:29.321
But like, and I don't like
all of his songs equally.

00:56:29.321 --> 00:56:29.531
Right.

00:56:29.531 --> 00:56:32.381
Some of them are a real turnoff
for me, and some of it just hit.

00:56:32.666 --> 00:56:33.776
So hard.

00:56:33.806 --> 00:56:33.896
Yeah.

00:56:33.896 --> 00:56:34.946
You're not obsessed like me.

00:56:34.946 --> 00:56:35.606
No, I'm not obsessed.

00:56:35.606 --> 00:56:38.126
I can take it or leave a And
you see him as just a man.

00:56:38.156 --> 00:56:39.266
I see him.

00:56:39.266 --> 00:56:40.466
I, whereas I as kind of a prophet.

00:56:40.616 --> 00:56:44.186
No, but I had the mythical,
mystical view of him and I thought

00:56:44.186 --> 00:56:46.796
he, he was the gateway to some
kind of Kabbalah or something.

00:56:46.826 --> 00:56:47.156
Yeah.

00:56:47.186 --> 00:56:48.296
Like it was big for me.

00:56:48.296 --> 00:56:48.746
Don't get still.

00:56:48.746 --> 00:56:49.556
Is that for me?

00:56:49.556 --> 00:56:49.766
Yeah.

00:56:49.766 --> 00:56:52.826
Like I really studied some of
his songs can like drop acid.

00:56:52.826 --> 00:56:53.366
Listen to Mr.

00:56:53.366 --> 00:56:54.206
Tambourine Man.

00:56:54.206 --> 00:56:55.706
And you're like, totally whoa.

00:56:55.706 --> 00:56:56.486
It's all there.

00:56:56.756 --> 00:56:57.026
Oh no.

00:56:57.026 --> 00:56:58.556
It's a phenomenal song,
don't get me wrong.

00:56:58.556 --> 00:56:58.766
Right?

00:56:58.766 --> 00:56:59.036
Yeah.

00:56:59.036 --> 00:56:59.936
But like, yeah.

00:56:59.966 --> 00:57:02.846
It seemed to mean so much on LSD anyway.

00:57:02.906 --> 00:57:04.521
No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:57:04.526 --> 00:57:05.726
It's very, it's very acid.

00:57:05.726 --> 00:57:06.056
Right.

00:57:06.746 --> 00:57:10.406
But, so what I was gonna say about
Dylan is so Tambourine man has

00:57:10.406 --> 00:57:14.156
this, um, romantic mysticism to
it, which I was very attracted to.

00:57:14.426 --> 00:57:17.936
I liked, I liked the
whimsical Dylan at first.

00:57:17.966 --> 00:57:18.176
Yeah.

00:57:18.176 --> 00:57:19.766
I liked the romantic Dylan.

00:57:20.306 --> 00:57:25.526
And when I say romantic, I mean
capital R that the, you know, uh,

00:57:25.556 --> 00:57:27.516
maybe somewhere in Tania, you know?

00:57:27.516 --> 00:57:27.721
Yeah.

00:57:27.866 --> 00:57:30.626
If you see her say hello
like this Wistfulness.

00:57:30.656 --> 00:57:31.046
Yes.

00:57:31.046 --> 00:57:31.961
And if only I'll.

00:57:32.576 --> 00:57:34.166
If only my own true love was waiting.

00:57:34.166 --> 00:57:37.526
If I could hear her heart softly pound,
and if only if she was lying by me,

00:57:37.526 --> 00:57:39.416
would I lie in my bed once again.

00:57:39.476 --> 00:57:40.196
But yeah.

00:57:40.316 --> 00:57:43.436
And surely Bob Dylan is a separate
self if there ever was one.

00:57:43.436 --> 00:57:43.826
Right.

00:57:43.826 --> 00:57:48.716
But he's a separate self who then goes,
who's reifying that constantly through

00:57:48.716 --> 00:57:52.616
the songwriting and he's full of acerbic
remarks about other human beings, right?

00:57:52.616 --> 00:57:52.856
Yes.

00:57:52.911 --> 00:57:53.731
Oh, love it.

00:57:53.731 --> 00:57:56.006
He's either, he's either cutting
other people down to size Yes.

00:57:56.096 --> 00:57:57.986
Or romanticizing them at a distance.

00:57:57.986 --> 00:57:59.066
That's exactly what I do.

00:57:59.096 --> 00:57:59.396
Yeah.

00:57:59.876 --> 00:58:00.026
Yeah.

00:58:00.026 --> 00:58:00.686
I love that.

00:58:00.926 --> 00:58:02.426
What a deficient way to live life.

00:58:03.626 --> 00:58:05.726
I've ended up quite
lonely, as I keep saying.

00:58:05.726 --> 00:58:06.116
Yeah.

00:58:06.326 --> 00:58:11.366
And I, I have two, so I won't
say that I will, I won't place

00:58:11.366 --> 00:58:12.836
myself above you in this regard.

00:58:13.076 --> 00:58:17.606
I thought I was better than that, but
I don't, I fundamentally still are.

00:58:17.606 --> 00:58:18.416
I'm still not there.

00:58:18.806 --> 00:58:21.806
But I can see through the
illusion of it and I can play,

00:58:21.896 --> 00:58:23.216
put it in his proper perspective.

00:58:23.216 --> 00:58:26.066
But, you know, can I realign
the behaviors to fit Well?

00:58:26.066 --> 00:58:26.606
We'll see.

00:58:27.206 --> 00:58:31.406
But when it comes to, I think
Dylan's very useful because he, Hmm.

00:58:31.688 --> 00:58:35.048
the girl from the north country or
sad eyed lately of the lowlands,

00:58:35.048 --> 00:58:36.218
boots of Spanish leather.

00:58:36.248 --> 00:58:36.338
Yes.

00:58:36.338 --> 00:58:38.288
It's all these songs
about separation, right?

00:58:38.288 --> 00:58:38.498
Yeah.

00:58:38.858 --> 00:58:41.888
And so that really connected with
me because I did experience a lot

00:58:41.888 --> 00:58:45.398
of separation as a young person,
as a child, and as a young person.

00:58:46.058 --> 00:58:51.098
And so the, the, the romantic wistful
Dylan very much connected with me, but so

00:58:51.098 --> 00:58:57.848
did the angry vengeful, hard eyed Dylan
also really connected to me, you know?

00:58:58.028 --> 00:59:01.118
Um, don't think twice.

00:59:01.118 --> 00:59:01.778
It's all right.

00:59:01.778 --> 00:59:05.948
Which is like, it's right and it's light,
but it's not, it's like very bitter.

00:59:07.118 --> 00:59:07.328
Yeah.

00:59:07.328 --> 00:59:07.348
It's dark.

00:59:07.348 --> 00:59:12.698
And, and I, I intensely related to
that song because I felt that it was.

00:59:13.238 --> 00:59:16.718
A trenchant critique of a certain
kind of feminine romanticism.

00:59:16.718 --> 00:59:16.778
Yeah.

00:59:16.778 --> 00:59:19.538
And that's what I said to friend
of the show, B McCafferty.

00:59:19.538 --> 00:59:22.118
I said, you know, this morning
I said, there wasn't any

00:59:22.118 --> 00:59:23.438
narrative tension in that film.

00:59:23.438 --> 00:59:24.848
It's just a bunch of Bob Dylan stuff.

00:59:25.208 --> 00:59:27.968
And he said, it's Bob Dylan
versus women does both.

00:59:27.968 --> 00:59:28.748
That's the tension.

00:59:28.778 --> 00:59:29.618
Oh my God.

00:59:29.648 --> 00:59:30.788
Bob Dylan versus women.

00:59:30.878 --> 00:59:34.808
And when you makes Blonde on Blonde,
it's like, this is an album about Right.

00:59:34.868 --> 00:59:35.978
This love hate relationship.

00:59:35.978 --> 00:59:37.478
It's a misogynistic album, right?

00:59:37.508 --> 00:59:37.778
Yeah.

00:59:37.778 --> 00:59:38.888
And, but I don't say that.

00:59:38.888 --> 00:59:41.228
I say it's artistically meritorious.

00:59:41.228 --> 00:59:42.818
Do you think I'm a misogynist though?

00:59:43.778 --> 00:59:44.138
Be honest.

00:59:44.138 --> 00:59:44.288
Yeah.

00:59:44.288 --> 00:59:45.218
A little, yeah.

00:59:45.218 --> 00:59:45.908
At times.

00:59:45.968 --> 00:59:46.268
Yeah.

00:59:46.268 --> 00:59:47.438
It's a contextual thing.

00:59:47.828 --> 00:59:49.268
But I thought you were
gonna say it's a spectrum.

00:59:49.703 --> 00:59:50.678
It it is.

00:59:50.708 --> 00:59:52.838
It's, it's a spectrum and it's a context.

00:59:53.018 --> 00:59:57.398
I resent how much I'm
obsessed at times with women.

00:59:57.398 --> 00:59:57.458
Yeah.

00:59:57.458 --> 00:59:58.328
With certain women.

00:59:58.328 --> 00:59:59.318
You know what, this is what I'm gonna say.

00:59:59.318 --> 01:00:02.768
So that resentment leads to
a misogyny of like, yes, yes.

01:00:02.798 --> 01:00:06.728
Wish I could just be free from
how much I need you right now.

01:00:06.728 --> 01:00:07.148
You know?

01:00:07.328 --> 01:00:08.048
Absolutely.

01:00:08.198 --> 01:00:09.818
I think you are right to resent that.

01:00:09.863 --> 01:00:13.013
Yeah, but you are attributing
it to the wrong cause.

01:00:13.373 --> 01:00:15.263
Women are not causing
you to feel that way.

01:00:15.833 --> 01:00:18.923
You are causing you to feel that
way and due to childhood stuff.

01:00:18.923 --> 01:00:19.133
Yes.

01:00:19.133 --> 01:00:22.943
And you have not overcome,
you've a, not deprogrammed the

01:00:22.943 --> 01:00:24.713
romantic illusions sufficiently.

01:00:25.433 --> 01:00:27.263
I'll say That's my, that's my judgment.

01:00:27.293 --> 01:00:27.443
Yeah.

01:00:27.443 --> 01:00:29.753
Lifetime listening to
Dylan probably didn't help.

01:00:30.023 --> 01:00:31.643
Right, exactly.

01:00:31.943 --> 01:00:33.113
But what but what?

01:00:33.113 --> 01:00:34.013
Here's your assignment.

01:00:34.733 --> 01:00:37.973
Listen to Dylan and hear
the dysfunction in it.

01:00:38.723 --> 01:00:40.313
Hear the willful attachment.

01:00:40.343 --> 01:00:43.253
Well, I watched it with two
women, a young woman and a woman.

01:00:43.253 --> 01:00:46.103
My, and they both called it, they
both said, why is he such an asshole?

01:00:46.103 --> 01:00:47.338
And I the right person?

01:00:47.338 --> 01:00:48.533
I wasn't viewing it like that.

01:00:48.533 --> 01:00:50.273
I'm like, this guy is my fucking hero.

01:00:50.333 --> 01:00:53.513
Well, he was an asshole because he was
very talented and he had the arrogance

01:00:53.513 --> 01:00:54.923
that Yeah, that came with that.

01:00:55.103 --> 01:00:58.943
He was also an asshole because he
was extremely driven and ambitious.

01:00:59.063 --> 01:01:00.233
Talent by itself is nothing.

01:01:00.233 --> 01:01:00.753
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:00.983 --> 01:01:04.223
But I did, just wasn't viewing it
through the lens of he's an asshole.

01:01:04.643 --> 01:01:07.883
I was viewing it through the ends of
lens of how fucking cool is this guy?

01:01:08.363 --> 01:01:08.843
You know?

01:01:08.843 --> 01:01:09.053
Well, yeah.

01:01:09.053 --> 01:01:10.673
No, no, no, and he, you're right.

01:01:10.673 --> 01:01:12.953
He was the definition
of cool at one point.

01:01:12.953 --> 01:01:13.043
Right.

01:01:13.043 --> 01:01:13.553
That's right.

01:01:13.558 --> 01:01:13.698
And.

01:01:14.453 --> 01:01:18.738
I think ladder Dylan when he sort of
ages, oh, it's so daggy in the eighties.

01:01:18.738 --> 01:01:20.873
He's so, Dagg is the definition
of daggy in the, do you what?

01:01:21.098 --> 01:01:21.378
Eighties Know what?

01:01:21.383 --> 01:01:23.003
That's the guy I can embrace a lot more.

01:01:23.003 --> 01:01:23.453
Yeah.

01:01:23.513 --> 01:01:24.863
You know, born again Christian.

01:01:24.983 --> 01:01:28.853
I think that's way more my kind of
Dylan and, and, but that's, that's

01:01:28.853 --> 01:01:30.233
what Dylan heads will tell you.

01:01:30.413 --> 01:01:30.773
Sam.

01:01:30.773 --> 01:01:33.563
There's a Dylan for every age
and stage of your life, you know?

01:01:33.563 --> 01:01:34.313
Now, Sam.

01:01:34.313 --> 01:01:34.613
Yeah.

01:01:34.643 --> 01:01:37.313
We're either gonna need a bathroom
break or we should wrap this up.

01:01:37.373 --> 01:01:41.243
Oh, I say we take a bathroom break
and continue because I think this

01:01:41.243 --> 01:01:45.893
is an absolute heater and I feel
like I've got this much more to say.

01:01:45.893 --> 01:01:45.953
Wow.

01:01:45.983 --> 01:01:47.673
Have a look at your notes
and we'll come back.

01:01:47.673 --> 01:01:48.503
She'll come record a two parter.

01:01:49.818 --> 01:01:50.723
I don't think so.

01:01:51.863 --> 01:01:53.123
Just give it another 10 minutes.

01:01:53.123 --> 01:01:54.953
It's just gonna be a
bumper episode, everybody.

01:01:55.253 --> 01:01:55.553
All right.

01:01:55.553 --> 01:01:55.695
All right.

01:01:55.951 --> 01:01:58.471
so is this turned into a Dylan episode?

01:01:58.471 --> 01:01:59.161
Are we Well, yeah.

01:01:59.161 --> 01:02:01.021
'cause it's one we're supposed
to be talking about attraction.

01:02:01.051 --> 01:02:05.341
Well, but this is what I'm gonna point to
and I think we should wrap it up too, Sam.

01:02:05.341 --> 01:02:05.611
Sure.

01:02:06.931 --> 01:02:10.231
But I'm gonna use Dylan as a way to kind
of bring some threads together here.

01:02:11.221 --> 01:02:11.521
Okay.

01:02:11.701 --> 01:02:16.321
So Dylan is a clue to all the things.

01:02:16.861 --> 01:02:17.761
We're talking about here.

01:02:17.881 --> 01:02:21.631
I don't think he has the answers,
but he reveals the pathologies.

01:02:22.441 --> 01:02:22.801
Right?

01:02:22.981 --> 01:02:27.271
And the first one is this false
notion, which I believed for a

01:02:27.271 --> 01:02:32.426
long time that, blonde On Blonde
was the, the so album, right?

01:02:32.486 --> 01:02:33.956
Or the angry album.

01:02:34.856 --> 01:02:38.606
That's the one where he, you know, his
feelings towards women have changed

01:02:38.606 --> 01:02:39.686
or whatever, and blah, blah, blah.

01:02:40.316 --> 01:02:41.066
Actually.

01:02:41.876 --> 01:02:48.446
Now I look at it and go romantic
misty-eyed, younger Dylan with, you

01:02:48.446 --> 01:02:53.216
know, like I said, sad eyed lady,
the lowlands, and Sarah o Sarah,

01:02:53.576 --> 01:02:56.606
glamorous nm sweet lover of my life.

01:02:56.906 --> 01:02:59.726
Like, I mean, that's a
later song, but like the.

01:03:00.761 --> 01:03:03.851
That mode he has of like
worshiping from afar.

01:03:04.121 --> 01:03:04.241
Mm.

01:03:04.271 --> 01:03:06.161
Of only loving them in separation.

01:03:06.161 --> 01:03:06.941
Worshiping.

01:03:07.331 --> 01:03:08.411
Worshiping from afar.

01:03:08.441 --> 01:03:09.821
Romanticizing from afar.

01:03:10.271 --> 01:03:12.281
She's flitting through
a market in Mar Kay.

01:03:12.851 --> 01:03:13.181
Oh, of course.

01:03:13.181 --> 01:03:14.141
She's, yeah.

01:03:14.141 --> 01:03:17.681
And the perfect woman and he,
that's still what I'm looking for.

01:03:17.711 --> 01:03:18.401
Of course.

01:03:18.581 --> 01:03:19.001
Oh right.

01:03:19.061 --> 01:03:19.901
And you, me too.

01:03:20.231 --> 01:03:25.151
And you're not wrong, but you need to be
able to find, I mean, this is genuine.

01:03:25.151 --> 01:03:26.231
It's just a statement of fact.

01:03:26.231 --> 01:03:27.701
It's so boring to say this.

01:03:28.601 --> 01:03:32.651
You need to be able to find the appeal
in the everyday and the real, right?

01:03:32.651 --> 01:03:32.741
Mm-hmm.

01:03:32.981 --> 01:03:34.181
That's the key to all of it.

01:03:34.571 --> 01:03:39.611
And it also unlocks your own, uh,
a feeling of comfort for oneself.

01:03:39.611 --> 01:03:44.981
And I was speaking for myself here that
once I was able to go, I love the reality.

01:03:45.401 --> 01:03:49.061
Yeah, then I was able to actually
love myself a lot better.

01:03:49.451 --> 01:03:50.836
So this is what, yeah, Alanda.

01:03:50.841 --> 01:03:53.081
Botten says We need to
get over romanticism.

01:03:53.081 --> 01:03:55.241
Re romanticism has poisoned our brain.

01:03:55.241 --> 01:03:55.631
He's right.

01:03:55.661 --> 01:04:00.071
And I met someone, a woman once, who
had said she'd had to stop listening to.

01:04:00.686 --> 01:04:05.366
Yeah, it's things like Dylan songs or
Beatles songs that romanticize love

01:04:05.396 --> 01:04:07.376
to get over a sex and love addiction.

01:04:07.586 --> 01:04:08.246
Are you familiar?

01:04:08.246 --> 01:04:08.486
Yeah.

01:04:08.486 --> 01:04:10.706
And I think that's the right move, right?

01:04:10.706 --> 01:04:13.286
Because that stuff, but I'll
never stop listening to Dylan.

01:04:13.736 --> 01:04:18.086
I think you can still listen to
it, but achieve a level of like a

01:04:18.086 --> 01:04:19.886
mature relationship to the work.

01:04:20.066 --> 01:04:21.651
That this is not a guide
to how to live your life.

01:04:21.976 --> 01:04:26.806
If anything, it's helping to reveal
the neuroses and the, the difficulties.

01:04:27.346 --> 01:04:28.306
And the mistakes.

01:04:28.426 --> 01:04:30.136
The errors as you described them earlier.

01:04:30.436 --> 01:04:34.966
So Dylan can only love profoundly
in separation and at a distance.

01:04:34.966 --> 01:04:35.296
Right.

01:04:35.296 --> 01:04:37.456
The young Dylan anyway,
I dunno what later.

01:04:37.456 --> 01:04:39.016
Dylan is a bit more real I think.

01:04:39.046 --> 01:04:41.866
So if he was around now that just
say he had a void, an attachment.

01:04:41.926 --> 01:04:42.646
Absolutely.

01:04:43.126 --> 01:04:47.706
And that he would get, he would
catch the ick pretty soon and end it.

01:04:48.266 --> 01:04:52.496
Or she would leave or there'd be some
enforced separation 'cause he's traveling

01:04:52.496 --> 01:04:54.566
or whatever and you know, she's not there.

01:04:55.016 --> 01:05:00.386
So he finds it all too easy to long
for her at a distance, but he finds it

01:05:00.386 --> 01:05:05.096
very difficult to actually just be in a
proper relationship up close in reality.

01:05:05.456 --> 01:05:06.926
And I would say in a general sense.

01:05:06.986 --> 01:05:11.246
Um, he was not particularly comfortable
in his own skin a lot of the time

01:05:11.246 --> 01:05:14.906
when, when he was around other people,
and that when he was alone, I think

01:05:14.906 --> 01:05:20.036
he felt relatively comfortable and
relaxed, and I think he was happiest

01:05:20.036 --> 01:05:21.506
when he was at the typewriter.

01:05:21.757 --> 01:05:25.087
and, and in the middle of performing
that he would feel a sort of oneness

01:05:25.087 --> 01:05:27.007
with himself and with the world.

01:05:27.457 --> 01:05:32.137
But when it came for social
interaction, he's either sort of.

01:05:33.757 --> 01:05:39.547
Awkward or silent or dismissive,
or sneering or, and you can just

01:05:39.547 --> 01:05:42.277
imagine what he would've been
like to have as a boyfriend.

01:05:42.277 --> 01:05:43.327
You know, just a nightmare.

01:05:43.927 --> 01:05:48.277
And, and then probably incredibly
sweet at times as well, right?

01:05:48.637 --> 01:05:51.817
So all we, I contain multitudes
as an older, Dylan says, right?

01:05:51.817 --> 01:05:51.877
Yeah.

01:05:52.537 --> 01:05:57.607
So that's the key to all this, to accept
all the parts of yourself, not to go.

01:05:58.057 --> 01:06:00.517
They're good, they're
bad, uh, or they're okay.

01:06:00.982 --> 01:06:06.712
I And to be and to be able to do that
for the other, it's all one thing.

01:06:06.742 --> 01:06:09.952
I'm gonna give you five minutes to
wrap up the threads of attraction

01:06:10.492 --> 01:06:11.632
and we'll finish the episodes.

01:06:11.632 --> 01:06:11.662
Okay.

01:06:11.692 --> 01:06:17.152
So my mate, Ben, years ago,
he told me a story about his,

01:06:17.992 --> 01:06:19.942
his girlfriend, who he's cute.

01:06:20.092 --> 01:06:22.702
Like, uh, you know, I
could, I could agree.

01:06:24.172 --> 01:06:26.872
And I said that 'cause
he was looking for that.

01:06:27.442 --> 01:06:28.972
And I was like, okay, what's the deal?

01:06:30.082 --> 01:06:32.512
And he's like, well, sure she's cute.

01:06:32.512 --> 01:06:32.872
Right?

01:06:33.022 --> 01:06:33.652
I like her.

01:06:34.432 --> 01:06:37.882
But the other day I caught
a glimpse of toe hair.

01:06:38.902 --> 01:06:41.212
I saw some toe hair, and
I was just like, Ooh.

01:06:41.692 --> 01:06:44.092
And I'm like, okay, man.

01:06:44.152 --> 01:06:45.232
Everyone's got toe hair.

01:06:45.652 --> 01:06:47.542
Like you're gonna have to
be able to get past this.

01:06:47.542 --> 01:06:47.842
Right.

01:06:49.702 --> 01:06:52.642
So that's why it's easier
to love at a distance.

01:06:52.762 --> 01:06:53.002
Mm-hmm.

01:06:53.002 --> 01:06:54.862
Because you don't have to worry
about toe hair or whatever.

01:06:55.432 --> 01:06:57.082
Like, and for, for me.

01:06:57.577 --> 01:07:00.157
The tow hair's not a problem,
but it's gonna be something else.

01:07:00.277 --> 01:07:00.307
Mm.

01:07:00.307 --> 01:07:01.327
It's gonna be behavior.

01:07:01.717 --> 01:07:06.367
The biggest, the biggest turnoff for me
was them seeing me for who I really am.

01:07:07.417 --> 01:07:07.447
Mm.

01:07:07.477 --> 01:07:09.157
That was the real turnoff, right.

01:07:09.157 --> 01:07:10.387
I'm like, oh my God.

01:07:11.527 --> 01:07:12.487
They see through me.

01:07:12.937 --> 01:07:17.287
They know I'm a vain,
inauthentic piece of shit.

01:07:18.427 --> 01:07:20.797
And what I didn't
realize was like, no, no.

01:07:20.797 --> 01:07:21.907
That's the good news.

01:07:22.327 --> 01:07:24.787
That they see you for who you
are, and they're still here

01:07:24.817 --> 01:07:25.777
and they're sticking around.

01:07:25.777 --> 01:07:27.187
So what are you worried about, man?

01:07:27.187 --> 01:07:28.867
This is the, this is the breakthrough.

01:07:28.872 --> 01:07:30.517
You've, that's how you know
you've really found one this.

01:07:30.907 --> 01:07:32.197
That's how you know you've got a real one.

01:07:32.437 --> 01:07:35.227
This is the breakthrough
you've been looking for.

01:07:35.467 --> 01:07:38.377
But instead I experienced
it as the exact opposite.

01:07:38.737 --> 01:07:44.227
I can only be secure and happy if you have
an illusion about who I really am and.

01:07:45.787 --> 01:07:47.617
Think about it, what's
the inverse of that?

01:07:47.707 --> 01:07:51.037
I can only feel secure and happy
and attracted if I have an illusion

01:07:51.037 --> 01:07:53.017
about how you, who you are.

01:07:53.977 --> 01:07:56.767
So you can see how tremendously
obvious all of this is when

01:07:56.767 --> 01:07:58.327
you put it like that, right?

01:07:58.807 --> 01:08:02.827
So learn to love the
reality of what it is.

01:08:03.637 --> 01:08:08.287
And there's another person who I'm
thinking of who I will not name and

01:08:08.287 --> 01:08:10.417
was not in a relationship with but is.

01:08:10.912 --> 01:08:12.322
Very conventionally.

01:08:12.442 --> 01:08:15.952
Beautiful, uh, great
bone structure, right?

01:08:16.072 --> 01:08:17.872
And lovely dark skin.

01:08:17.907 --> 01:08:18.557
Bone structure.

01:08:18.947 --> 01:08:25.918
Bone structure, lovely dark skin, and
visible all over body hair, right?

01:08:25.918 --> 01:08:32.278
Oh, now I didn't notice it at
first, just like, and then one day

01:08:32.278 --> 01:08:34.348
I was like, oh, oh, yeah, right.

01:08:34.917 --> 01:08:36.807
That is a of course.

01:08:37.197 --> 01:08:38.997
And I was like, I couldn't unsee it.

01:08:39.417 --> 01:08:39.777
Right?

01:08:40.797 --> 01:08:43.767
And then I wondered how her
boyfriend felt about it, right?

01:08:43.767 --> 01:08:45.057
Because he also had a bit of hair.

01:08:45.477 --> 01:08:46.767
And I'm like, well, it's
probably cool, right?

01:08:47.097 --> 01:08:51.447
But then I learned everyone's got the
same amount of body hair, more or less.

01:08:51.537 --> 01:08:55.832
It's just that some people's are
much more visible and that this is.

01:08:57.042 --> 01:09:00.342
An unfair beauty standard, just
one among many, and there's

01:09:00.342 --> 01:09:02.142
so many like tallness for men.

01:09:02.922 --> 01:09:06.972
Um, or as I experienced, you know,
that I needed to be tanned and tight

01:09:07.332 --> 01:09:12.852
in the abdomen and, uh, have good
arms and I really hit me hard and

01:09:12.852 --> 01:09:14.237
I never forgot it when a girl said.

01:09:16.422 --> 01:09:18.222
You'd be hot if you had some muscles.

01:09:18.882 --> 01:09:19.272
Mm.

01:09:19.302 --> 01:09:22.542
And I was like, oh man,
that's just brutally unfair.

01:09:22.542 --> 01:09:22.872
Right?

01:09:23.052 --> 01:09:27.132
But I was doing the same thing to other
people and like, oh yeah, yeah, you

01:09:27.132 --> 01:09:28.662
just called someone an eight earlier.

01:09:28.992 --> 01:09:29.622
Totally.

01:09:29.712 --> 01:09:30.132
Right.

01:09:30.132 --> 01:09:31.272
So what am I leaving out?

01:09:31.272 --> 01:09:32.172
What's the two?

01:09:32.442 --> 01:09:33.432
Well, what pushed her?

01:09:33.492 --> 01:09:37.347
What pushed her to 10 was No, but even
the fact you're willing to number people.

01:09:38.007 --> 01:09:38.307
Oh no.

01:09:38.532 --> 01:09:41.562
You are obviously cool with a
bit of No, and that's right.

01:09:41.567 --> 01:09:42.147
Objectification.

01:09:42.177 --> 01:09:42.667
Exactly.

01:09:42.792 --> 01:09:44.502
I was consciously making that move.

01:09:44.817 --> 01:09:49.977
To illustrate how the two of us were
both very much harshly but somewhat

01:09:49.977 --> 01:09:51.597
objectively assessing one another.

01:09:51.627 --> 01:09:53.667
And the fact that we actually
liked each other nonetheless

01:09:53.667 --> 01:09:55.137
is quite, quite remarkable.

01:09:55.827 --> 01:10:00.927
But the thing that really tipped that
attraction into, into, into Gear was

01:10:00.927 --> 01:10:04.617
I was one day sitting down with a
couple of mates at like an outdoor,

01:10:04.797 --> 01:10:06.267
you know, drinking area in lawn.

01:10:06.267 --> 01:10:08.697
It was sort of quiet, quietish
afternoons, a few people around.

01:10:09.417 --> 01:10:12.247
And I happened to have the guitar
there 'cause I think I was gonna.

01:10:12.882 --> 01:10:15.252
Maybe do a little bit
of a show there later.

01:10:15.282 --> 01:10:16.062
I can't remember why.

01:10:16.692 --> 01:10:18.522
And then she's like, oh, do you play that?

01:10:18.522 --> 01:10:19.722
And I'm like, yeah.

01:10:20.802 --> 01:10:22.572
She goes, go on, do something.

01:10:22.842 --> 01:10:23.862
And I'm like, oh Christ.

01:10:23.862 --> 01:10:24.102
Hang on.

01:10:24.102 --> 01:10:25.092
Is this the Harry woman?

01:10:25.302 --> 01:10:26.742
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:10:26.742 --> 01:10:30.132
The one that I was annoyed with
from hospitality situation, I'll

01:10:30.132 --> 01:10:31.302
close off the Harry woman story.

01:10:31.722 --> 01:10:33.852
Eventually I just went,
oh no, it's just there.

01:10:34.212 --> 01:10:35.082
It's just the reality.

01:10:35.082 --> 01:10:35.832
Everyone's got their hair.

01:10:35.832 --> 01:10:39.102
It's just visible in this case, see
past it or don't, but if you, yeah,

01:10:39.162 --> 01:10:41.532
but see, it's like I've always dated,
but if you don't see past it, you're

01:10:41.532 --> 01:10:42.942
gonna miss out on the awesome person.

01:10:42.942 --> 01:10:43.092
Don't, yeah.

01:10:43.092 --> 01:10:47.262
Most of the women I dated had like
hairy armpits, and then I got a friend.

01:10:47.292 --> 01:10:48.072
I like hairy armpits.

01:10:48.072 --> 01:10:51.042
I've got a friend who gets such
an ink that he can't even say

01:10:51.372 --> 01:10:52.872
hairy armpits to him without him.

01:10:52.872 --> 01:10:52.932
Ga.

01:10:53.922 --> 01:10:54.552
About women.

01:10:54.582 --> 01:10:54.762
Okay.

01:10:54.762 --> 01:10:57.372
I've got one thing that, you
know, I persont bother me at all.

01:10:57.552 --> 01:11:01.092
I've been just as superficial as that
and might be again, but get over it.

01:11:01.092 --> 01:11:02.232
Stop being such a baby.

01:11:02.592 --> 01:11:03.552
Yeah, just grow up.

01:11:03.552 --> 01:11:04.542
But he can't, that's his ick.

01:11:05.262 --> 01:11:05.622
Okay.

01:11:06.102 --> 01:11:07.962
But it's like, I don't think he,
does he not have armpit hair?

01:11:07.962 --> 01:11:09.612
It's so hard to overwhelm your own ick.

01:11:09.612 --> 01:11:11.412
Does he have, does he
not have armpit hair?

01:11:11.502 --> 01:11:13.842
I'm not saying he's right, Sam,
I'm saying he's probably wrong,

01:11:13.842 --> 01:11:15.252
but that's just the No, no, no.

01:11:15.252 --> 01:11:17.412
Of course he's, he's having a
visceral reaction to something

01:11:17.412 --> 01:11:18.432
that doesn't bother me at all.

01:11:18.432 --> 01:11:19.512
But how, how do you overcome it?

01:11:19.512 --> 01:11:19.812
Right.

01:11:20.337 --> 01:11:23.727
I think the key is he doesn't,
he just dates hairless women.

01:11:23.817 --> 01:11:24.927
He's a pretty attractive guy.

01:11:24.927 --> 01:11:26.307
It's easy enough to shave
your armpits, right?

01:11:26.397 --> 01:11:29.697
So I guess it's an easy problem
to solve, but to me it's like this

01:11:29.697 --> 01:11:32.637
would represent some tremendous,
I never wanted to drive a car.

01:11:32.637 --> 01:11:33.867
I was terrified of doing it.

01:11:33.867 --> 01:11:37.767
I had a visceral reaction to the idea
of being behind the wheel, and yet now

01:11:37.767 --> 01:11:40.497
I am here quite enjoy driving a car now.

01:11:40.527 --> 01:11:40.827
Yeah.

01:11:40.887 --> 01:11:43.257
So can I just say, you're
basically a petrolhead?

01:11:43.707 --> 01:11:47.397
I, I flawed it the other day, turning
left onto Bell Street and going

01:11:47.397 --> 01:11:48.897
across three lanes, and I was like.

01:11:49.842 --> 01:11:50.532
God damn.

01:11:50.832 --> 01:11:51.522
Alright, Sam.

01:11:51.522 --> 01:11:52.392
And that move the needle.

01:11:52.632 --> 01:11:54.522
I'm gonna have to go,
I have to go and watch.

01:11:54.522 --> 01:11:55.662
Well, I'll say the
thing, what's the footy?

01:11:55.662 --> 01:11:57.822
The thing that moved the needle
with the person that annoyed me,

01:11:57.822 --> 01:11:59.022
she said, go and play a song.

01:11:59.022 --> 01:12:02.352
And I'm like, if there's one thing
I hate, it's a demand performance.

01:12:02.352 --> 01:12:02.472
Right?

01:12:03.042 --> 01:12:06.192
So you're gonna go and look this
woman up on Facebook after this?

01:12:06.312 --> 01:12:07.182
Absolutely not.

01:12:07.932 --> 01:12:09.252
She'll be married with five kids.

01:12:10.452 --> 01:12:14.562
Uh, and I, it's better
that way, but like, but.

01:12:15.702 --> 01:12:18.102
Actually, or possibly has
some high powered career.

01:12:18.102 --> 01:12:19.482
I dunno, it's 50 50.

01:12:19.752 --> 01:12:19.932
Yeah.

01:12:19.932 --> 01:12:25.482
Anyway, um, and she's like, oh wait,
have you got like, is that a songbook?

01:12:25.632 --> 01:12:26.172
And I was like, yeah.

01:12:26.172 --> 01:12:27.342
And she starts flipping through it.

01:12:27.732 --> 01:12:28.092
Right.

01:12:28.362 --> 01:12:31.242
And I'm just kinda like warming up,
playing a strumming a little bit.

01:12:31.722 --> 01:12:33.762
I think I, I started singing
something and she goes sing this one.

01:12:34.602 --> 01:12:38.772
And she turns the book around and
it's Orphan Girl by Gillian Welch.

01:12:39.132 --> 01:12:39.252
Oh, right.

01:12:39.252 --> 01:12:41.892
And I'm like, I'm like.

01:12:43.047 --> 01:12:46.227
I was astonished she even knew
the song, first of all, and that

01:12:46.227 --> 01:12:51.057
she would want that one, uh, out
of, you know, everything there.

01:12:51.747 --> 01:12:52.737
So I said, okay, fine.

01:12:52.737 --> 01:12:55.887
I started singing it and then she
joined in, in a beautiful harmony

01:12:55.887 --> 01:12:57.477
and sang it with such feeling.

01:12:57.567 --> 01:12:57.867
Wow.

01:12:57.867 --> 01:12:58.377
And I was like.

01:12:59.442 --> 01:13:02.532
So this Prissy private school girl,
that's not who you really are.

01:13:02.562 --> 01:13:03.102
Yeah.

01:13:03.282 --> 01:13:04.242
What's going on here?

01:13:04.242 --> 01:13:08.112
Like, why are you this way when
there's actually this wonderful,

01:13:08.412 --> 01:13:11.112
soulful person beneath, maybe I
could look her up on Facebook.

01:13:11.112 --> 01:13:11.502
You should.

01:13:12.282 --> 01:13:12.942
She's awesome.

01:13:13.212 --> 01:13:15.882
Like she's got that, a little bit
of that Monica Ucci, a little bit

01:13:15.882 --> 01:13:17.292
of that Catherine's Edita Jones.

01:13:17.862 --> 01:13:20.622
Um, and just annoying
enough for you, you know?

01:13:20.622 --> 01:13:22.722
I think, but it's like, it sounds dreamy.

01:13:22.962 --> 01:13:23.352
Yeah.

01:13:23.382 --> 01:13:24.912
But, but the.

01:13:25.572 --> 01:13:28.932
And I remember saying to a colleague
how much, uh, how much, she just

01:13:28.932 --> 01:13:32.592
said something annoying earlier about
like, I, I need a man to pick me up

01:13:32.592 --> 01:13:33.882
at the door and take me to a thing.

01:13:33.882 --> 01:13:38.292
And I'm like, but what
if, what if I'm a creep?

01:13:38.907 --> 01:13:40.017
Like, what do you do then?

01:13:40.077 --> 01:13:43.437
Don't you wanna meet in an objective,
neutral public location so you can

01:13:43.437 --> 01:13:47.247
like pull the ripcord if there's
like a bad situation and she's like,

01:13:47.277 --> 01:13:48.507
oh no, I would never choose anyone.

01:13:48.507 --> 01:13:49.017
I'm like that.

01:13:49.017 --> 01:13:53.397
And I'm like, it's almost this Dylan
level of like confidence and arrogance

01:13:53.397 --> 01:13:56.277
that like, she'll just never put a
foot wrong and maybe she never did.

01:13:56.337 --> 01:13:57.867
Maybe she was right to trust herself.

01:13:57.867 --> 01:13:58.287
I don't know.

01:13:58.797 --> 01:14:03.117
But you know, like it's, it's all,
it can be a little bit of a mystery,

01:14:03.117 --> 01:14:06.897
but I think what I've, what I've
learned is that I actually can.

01:14:07.407 --> 01:14:11.457
Eventually put my finger on
why people are hot or not.

01:14:11.457 --> 01:14:15.447
And it usually, to me, and it
usually comes down to personality,

01:14:15.537 --> 01:14:21.297
is actually much, much more
important than I would've believed.

01:14:21.657 --> 01:14:21.987
Mm.

01:14:22.077 --> 01:14:23.937
And I think it's always
been important to me.

01:14:24.867 --> 01:14:27.027
And if there's like a level of just like.

01:14:27.537 --> 01:14:33.117
Basic straight up physical attraction
plus like a strong personality that it's,

01:14:33.117 --> 01:14:37.527
that's an amazing combo and that I've
always been drawn to people that were

01:14:37.527 --> 01:14:42.537
accomplished or ambitious or forthright
or you know, that kind of thing.

01:14:42.567 --> 01:14:45.297
And that I think that those
instincts are basically good

01:14:47.492 --> 01:14:49.767
and that the thing that was
missing was the attachment

01:14:49.767 --> 01:14:51.357
piece, which slowly working out.

01:14:51.357 --> 01:14:54.867
And the other thing that was
missing was the knowledge that

01:14:54.867 --> 01:14:56.517
like you could actually train.

01:14:57.462 --> 01:15:00.642
You can train your aesthetic,
you can change your aesthetic

01:15:00.642 --> 01:15:02.532
that these things are malleable.

01:15:02.892 --> 01:15:03.222
Yeah.

01:15:03.222 --> 01:15:10.452
And you, for example, that friend of
yours could reprogram the underarm

01:15:10.452 --> 01:15:13.392
hair thing if they so chose.

01:15:13.602 --> 01:15:17.202
Well, if I can retrain my
attractive brain a bit.

01:15:17.712 --> 01:15:22.002
I could potentially have a great partner
that I maybe haven't quite lost yet.

01:15:22.122 --> 01:15:24.192
So I think that's my homework.

01:15:24.192 --> 01:15:25.242
I, I believe you.

01:15:25.242 --> 01:15:26.112
It's possible.

01:15:26.202 --> 01:15:29.532
And if it is possible, then I'm still
in with a chance with that person.

01:15:29.802 --> 01:15:30.762
Yeah, absolutely.

01:15:30.762 --> 01:15:32.802
Um, yeah, because as you said,
the fundamentals were good.

01:15:32.802 --> 01:15:36.252
You like get along with them and like
enjoyed each other's company and you

01:15:36.252 --> 01:15:37.242
know, it's like, come on, what are we?

01:15:37.242 --> 01:15:37.482
Yeah.

01:15:37.482 --> 01:15:39.552
And that's one word we
haven't used is soul.

01:15:39.552 --> 01:15:40.722
She's got soul man.

01:15:41.152 --> 01:15:43.792
I, you know, gotta say if it's
not there, it doesn't matter

01:15:43.792 --> 01:15:45.292
how good the personality Yeah.

01:15:45.292 --> 01:15:46.222
The appearance is.

01:15:46.282 --> 01:15:46.702
Yeah.

01:15:46.792 --> 01:15:47.812
She's a good human.

01:15:47.932 --> 01:15:48.112
Yeah.

01:15:48.112 --> 01:15:51.802
But, um, I don't have any way of
getting through to her unless she

01:15:51.802 --> 01:15:55.672
listens to this, so that's exciting for,
well, everyone else and that person.

01:15:55.672 --> 01:15:57.832
Well, as you said, the
lesson of the Dylan movie is.

01:15:58.732 --> 01:16:01.342
Good art equals get the girl right.

01:16:01.342 --> 01:16:02.092
But you Yeah.

01:16:02.152 --> 01:16:04.582
But as you've always said,
this podcast is not art.

01:16:04.912 --> 01:16:06.862
It's just two people talking on a couch.

01:16:06.952 --> 01:16:07.102
Yeah.

01:16:07.102 --> 01:16:08.602
It's not art, it's process.

01:16:08.872 --> 01:16:11.422
It's uh, it's processing it's process.

01:16:11.422 --> 01:16:11.572
Yeah.

01:16:11.572 --> 01:16:11.792
That's right.

01:16:12.432 --> 01:16:14.082
Um, well, I think, oh, that's right.

01:16:14.082 --> 01:16:17.022
I'm gonna propose another, I'm
gonna propose a part two to this

01:16:17.022 --> 01:16:18.132
at some point in the future.

01:16:18.162 --> 01:16:18.432
Yeah.

01:16:18.552 --> 01:16:23.202
Which is dealing more with the aesthetic
and the physical side of things.

01:16:23.202 --> 01:16:24.672
I think that's what we just
talked about for an hour.

01:16:24.672 --> 01:16:26.142
I feel like we didn't
get into it properly.

01:16:26.172 --> 01:16:26.502
Okay.

01:16:26.532 --> 01:16:27.942
Yeah, we can come back to it.

01:16:28.002 --> 01:16:30.912
I want to talk about how the aesthetic.

01:16:31.797 --> 01:16:35.187
And the psychoanalytic go together
and what I've learned about that.

01:16:35.187 --> 01:16:35.217
Okay.

01:16:35.247 --> 01:16:36.537
Which is quite specific.

01:16:36.687 --> 01:16:37.287
No worries.

01:16:37.287 --> 01:16:37.462
And different worries.

01:16:37.467 --> 01:16:38.247
Let's come back to it.

01:16:38.337 --> 01:16:38.367
Mm.

01:16:38.367 --> 01:16:39.117
But it's been fun.

01:16:39.117 --> 01:16:40.857
Sam, thanks for having me in your home.

01:16:41.007 --> 01:16:41.667
A good one.

01:16:41.667 --> 01:16:42.507
Thank you for being here.

01:16:42.537 --> 01:16:45.507
And, um, go dogs, by the time
you listen to this will know

01:16:45.507 --> 01:16:46.707
whether they're in the finals.

01:16:46.978 --> 01:16:47.248
Oh.

01:16:47.278 --> 01:16:48.448
Have you missed part of the game?

01:16:48.508 --> 01:16:48.808
No.

01:16:48.808 --> 01:16:48.928
No.

01:16:48.928 --> 01:16:49.198
Oh, no.

01:16:49.198 --> 01:16:49.318
No.

01:16:49.318 --> 01:16:50.068
It's about to happen.

01:16:50.098 --> 01:16:53.458
It's about to happen and it's
still or die, so that's exciting.

01:16:53.788 --> 01:16:54.148
Yeah.

01:16:54.598 --> 01:16:56.668
Let's hope that it's good
news on the other side.

01:16:56.668 --> 01:16:59.398
Or Danny will be happy if, uh, or unhappy.

01:16:59.833 --> 01:17:01.993
Yeah, when we get to the
end of today, that's right.

01:17:02.113 --> 01:17:02.323
Yeah.

01:17:02.323 --> 01:17:02.743
All right, mate.

01:17:02.803 --> 01:17:03.163
All right.

01:17:03.253 --> 01:17:03.583
Okay.

01:17:03.588 --> 01:17:03.838
See ya.

01:17:03.843 --> 01:17:04.033
See you, mate.