1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,720 Jeniffer: Hello, welcome back. I'm Jennifer Thompson. And 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,000 I'm Chad Thompson. And this is season seven of the 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,800 Premise of the Premise, where we get to the story 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,880 behind the storyteller. We've got some amazing 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,440 authors lined up for you this season. And guess 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,080 what? The San Diego Writers Festival is coming up 7 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:20,720 in just a couple months, folks. It's March 28th at 8 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,960 the Coronado Public Library. It's free to 9 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,800 everyone, and this year's keynote is Jodi Picolt. 10 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,000 So make sure and mark your calendars. We'll see 11 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,180 you there. And for the premise, we've just got an 12 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:34,340 amazing lineup of people who are gonna talk about 13 00:00:34,340 --> 00:00:38,340 storytelling and writing and publishing and just, 14 00:00:38,340 --> 00:00:44,300 you know, and cars and cars and pasta. So stay 15 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:47,380 tuned and be sure to subscribe wherever you get 16 00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:48,299 your podcasts. 17 00:00:49,660 --> 00:00:53,020 Caitlin Rother: Italian Cars, Italian Pasta. 18 00:00:57,500 --> 00:01:00,210 Jeniffer: New York Times best selling author Ken Caitlin 19 00:01:00,210 --> 00:01:04,290 Rother has written or Co authored 16 books, the 20 00:01:04,290 --> 00:01:06,970 latest of which is Hooked, which I have just read 21 00:01:06,970 --> 00:01:09,410 and we're going to talk about today. This is the 22 00:01:09,410 --> 00:01:12,770 first in Rother's new Katrina and Good thriller 23 00:01:12,770 --> 00:01:15,570 series. Her other recent titles are down to the 24 00:01:15,570 --> 00:01:18,610 bone, about the McStay family murders, the updated 25 00:01:18,610 --> 00:01:22,730 edition of Body Parts about serial killer Wayne 26 00:01:22,730 --> 00:01:26,530 Adam Ford, and Death on Ocean Boulevard, about the 27 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:30,000 mysterious death of Rebecca Zaha. Rother, who 28 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,480 worked as an investigative newspaper reporter for 29 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,680 19 years before quitting the news biz to write 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,080 books full time, has appeared more than 250 times 31 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,040 on TV, radio shows and podcasts. She also works as 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,920 a book coach, enjoys ocean swimming and plays 33 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,080 keyboards and sings in a jazzy, bluesy trio. 34 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,200 Caitlin, welcome to the premise. 35 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,120 Caitlin Rother: Thanks so much for having me. 36 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,920 Jeniffer: Yeah, I'm really excited to dive into this book 37 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,870 Hooked. there are so many topics. I don't imagine 38 00:01:59,870 --> 00:02:01,850 we'll get to all of them, but let's start with 39 00:02:01,850 --> 00:02:02,130 this. 40 00:02:02,370 --> 00:02:04,770 Tell us about Hooked. What is this book about? 41 00:02:06,930 --> 00:02:12,090 Caitlin Rother: Well, I have so many different sub themes that I 42 00:02:12,090 --> 00:02:14,760 can talk about. it's really difficult for me to 43 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,199 boil it down, but I know you're supposed to have 44 00:02:16,199 --> 00:02:18,800 an elevator pitch, but you know, basically the. 45 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,850 It's the first book in the series. so it launches 46 00:02:23,850 --> 00:02:29,600 with hooked on February 1st. And it's basically a 47 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:37,100 book about ethics, corruption, suicide, murder, 48 00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:44,890 addiction, and the way that materialism is not 49 00:02:44,890 --> 00:02:47,930 everything. It seems wealthy people behaving 50 00:02:47,930 --> 00:02:51,290 badly. And one thing that I really think is 51 00:02:51,290 --> 00:02:55,650 important is I kind of wrote it to be historical 52 00:02:55,650 --> 00:02:58,930 fiction. And given what we're going through today 53 00:02:59,330 --> 00:03:03,230 with all of these accusations about fake news and 54 00:03:03,310 --> 00:03:06,750 reporters being attacked constantly, and also 55 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:10,830 journalism really taking a dive in terms of 56 00:03:10,830 --> 00:03:14,070 quality. Just a lot of it has to do with how the 57 00:03:14,070 --> 00:03:18,430 industry has shrunk so much. layoffs, mergers, 58 00:03:18,430 --> 00:03:20,950 buyouts. so many people have left the business 59 00:03:21,110 --> 00:03:24,270 that it's just a tiny version of itself. So I 60 00:03:24,270 --> 00:03:28,910 wanted to pay an. An homage to the way it used to 61 00:03:28,910 --> 00:03:32,910 be. So the book is set in 2015, when reporters 62 00:03:33,310 --> 00:03:35,910 were trusted to tell the truth, and you wanted 63 00:03:35,910 --> 00:03:37,790 them to tell the truth, and people were actually 64 00:03:37,870 --> 00:03:42,510 able to accept the truth for truth. And journalism 65 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:45,310 was not about misinformation and disinformation 66 00:03:45,310 --> 00:03:50,270 and partisan ideology and law enforcement. We 67 00:03:50,430 --> 00:03:53,710 expected them to protect us, and we called them, 68 00:03:53,790 --> 00:03:57,550 knowing they would come and hopefully do the right 69 00:03:57,550 --> 00:04:00,250 thing and follow the law, as opposed to some of 70 00:04:00,250 --> 00:04:03,130 what we're seeing on the streets today, where 71 00:04:03,130 --> 00:04:06,530 people fear them. So I just felt like this was a 72 00:04:06,530 --> 00:04:10,010 good time to go back and celebrate. It wasn't that 73 00:04:10,010 --> 00:04:12,890 long ago. It was only 10 years ago, but, so much 74 00:04:12,890 --> 00:04:16,370 has changed. And so these are good characters. Ken 75 00:04:16,370 --> 00:04:18,970 Good, the surfing homicide detective, and Katrina 76 00:04:18,970 --> 00:04:22,450 Chopin, who is the investigative reporter. Katrina 77 00:04:22,610 --> 00:04:26,820 lives her life by ethics and integrity. And so 78 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:30,500 when she meets Ken Goode at Piarti, which is my 79 00:04:30,580 --> 00:04:33,900 favorite Italian restaurant in La Jolla, at the 80 00:04:33,900 --> 00:04:37,460 bar, you know, she. They immediately hit it off. 81 00:04:37,780 --> 00:04:40,060 But he gets called out. You know, a couple dead 82 00:04:40,060 --> 00:04:42,020 bodies. He's got to go. And she goes, oh, you're a 83 00:04:42,020 --> 00:04:44,940 homicide detective? And he says, yeah. And then he 84 00:04:44,940 --> 00:04:47,180 doesn't know she's a reporter until he sees her 85 00:04:47,180 --> 00:04:49,900 the next morning at the news conference. And he 86 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:51,860 says, you're a reporter because, you know, 87 00:04:51,860 --> 00:04:54,180 detectives and reporters can't date each other 88 00:04:54,180 --> 00:04:56,740 when they're, you know, working on the same case. 89 00:04:56,820 --> 00:04:59,640 It's an eth. Big line that you're not allowed to 90 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,360 cross. So that's a huge theme in the whole series 91 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,320 about how they can't be together. But there's this 92 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,760 sexual tension and professional competition. So 93 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,760 it's, you know, you always say that you can't have 94 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,800 a story without conflict. Well, this has conflict 95 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,760 on so many levels that hopefully that keeps the 96 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:20,880 suspense level high. 97 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,440 Jeniffer: 100%. Yeah. I loved the, you know, as you say, the 98 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,680 underlying sexual tension. So really, we've got 99 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,870 romance and we've got the typical thriller. And I 100 00:05:30,870 --> 00:05:32,910 gotta go back to your comment, though, because I 101 00:05:32,910 --> 00:05:35,790 went to journalism school myself, and I can just 102 00:05:35,790 --> 00:05:39,310 remember being 19 years old and seeing Diane 103 00:05:39,310 --> 00:05:42,990 Sawyer doing undercover reporting. And I was so 104 00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:46,390 moved and so inspired. That's what I wanted to do 105 00:05:46,390 --> 00:05:48,030 with my life. You know, I wanted to do something 106 00:05:48,030 --> 00:05:50,230 good in the world. And m, to me, the only way to 107 00:05:50,230 --> 00:05:52,790 do that was really through journalism. And reading 108 00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:55,870 your book just brought me back to that feeling. It 109 00:05:55,870 --> 00:05:57,910 stirred within me, that feeling of like, I want to 110 00:05:57,910 --> 00:05:58,710 do good in the world. 111 00:05:59,410 --> 00:05:59,690 Caitlin Rother: Yeah. 112 00:05:59,690 --> 00:06:01,450 Jeniffer: And it's scary. It's scary to see what's happening 113 00:06:01,450 --> 00:06:04,610 in journalism and that people don't believe what 114 00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:07,600 they see. you know, Chad calls it a post truth 115 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,720 society, and that's. That's scary stuff. 116 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:13,960 Caitlin Rother: Well, and I went into journalism, you know, with 117 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,040 these ideals about right and wrong. And, you know, 118 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,200 I've always had that. Apparently. My mom told me 119 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,320 that I've always been like that since my 120 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,400 personality was formed, I guess, when I was a 121 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,240 child. And it just stayed that way. So I've always 122 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,310 been a rule follower and, you know, so I just 123 00:06:31,310 --> 00:06:34,590 wanted to expose wrongdoing and I wanted to expose 124 00:06:34,990 --> 00:06:38,590 negligence and incompetence. So I covered a lot of 125 00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:41,070 government. So people always think because I was a 126 00:06:41,070 --> 00:06:43,870 true crime author, that I was a police reporter 127 00:06:43,870 --> 00:06:47,900 and I really wasn't. I covered government, the 128 00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:50,590 city hall and politics. And I covered, a lot of 129 00:06:50,590 --> 00:06:52,790 political races. So I was an investigative 130 00:06:52,790 --> 00:06:57,360 reporter, but my area generally was in politics. 131 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,020 And then they also had me do high profile, quick 132 00:07:01,420 --> 00:07:04,740 front page profiles on newsmakers. And those were 133 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:06,980 always, like super complicated stories where I had 134 00:07:06,980 --> 00:07:10,349 to cram in all this research, and then get it done 135 00:07:10,349 --> 00:07:14,670 in, you know, three days time. And. Yeah, so. And, 136 00:07:14,670 --> 00:07:16,590 and make people upset. A lot of people would get 137 00:07:16,590 --> 00:07:18,550 upset and scared when I would call, so. 138 00:07:18,950 --> 00:07:22,990 Jeniffer: I bet. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's a 139 00:07:22,990 --> 00:07:24,150 fantastic book and. 140 00:07:24,150 --> 00:07:24,870 Caitlin Rother: Well, thank you. 141 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:28,250 Jeniffer: Yeah, well, thank. And I gotta say, you know, 142 00:07:28,250 --> 00:07:34,630 Katrina, she's so meticulous. And the tension also 143 00:07:34,630 --> 00:07:37,870 of her, you know, just this crazy day running 144 00:07:37,870 --> 00:07:40,390 around making these phone calls, trying to find as 145 00:07:40,390 --> 00:07:43,950 much information and as many facts as she can so 146 00:07:43,950 --> 00:07:45,780 she can tell the story well. And then, oh, by the 147 00:07:45,780 --> 00:07:47,940 way, you've got three hours to write it. We have a 148 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:48,900 deadline today. 149 00:07:49,140 --> 00:07:53,900 Caitlin Rother: You know, always, always. That was my life, which 150 00:07:53,900 --> 00:07:54,460 is stressful. 151 00:07:54,460 --> 00:07:57,550 Jeniffer: But I guess it's, you know, a form of, you know, 152 00:07:57,550 --> 00:07:59,550 adrenaline. That's pretty exciting too. 153 00:08:00,130 --> 00:08:02,450 Caitlin Rother: well, and not all reporters are capable of that. 154 00:08:02,530 --> 00:08:06,210 Not all reporters are investigative reporters. So 155 00:08:06,610 --> 00:08:09,470 when you, when you say investigative reporter, and 156 00:08:09,470 --> 00:08:12,190 I was interviewed by another podcaster who was 157 00:08:12,190 --> 00:08:16,150 mentioning an author who was a TV reporter and 158 00:08:16,230 --> 00:08:18,350 talking about being an investigative reporter. But 159 00:08:18,350 --> 00:08:23,010 the scene that he was relaying was basically on 160 00:08:23,010 --> 00:08:27,010 the spot, breaking news at a crime scene, not the 161 00:08:27,010 --> 00:08:29,890 same thing. So Investigative reporter means you 162 00:08:29,890 --> 00:08:32,490 love paper, you love documents, you love going 163 00:08:32,490 --> 00:08:34,930 through the court files, you love when somebody 164 00:08:34,930 --> 00:08:39,050 hands you a stack of manila folders with a bunch 165 00:08:39,050 --> 00:08:42,450 of old dusty papers in it and you go, oh, that's 166 00:08:42,450 --> 00:08:45,010 exciting. And you find all kinds of great nuggets 167 00:08:45,010 --> 00:08:47,250 and you weave them all the way into your stories. 168 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:50,220 And you know, it's, it's exciting and you want to 169 00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:52,500 share it with people. And that's why I loved what 170 00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:54,820 I did. And that's why I loved being an author even 171 00:08:54,820 --> 00:08:57,740 more, because I had way more room and space to put 172 00:08:57,740 --> 00:08:59,420 all those little facts right. 173 00:08:59,420 --> 00:09:01,260 Jeniffer: Well, I was just going to ask you, when did you 174 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:03,140 decide you were going to write like full length 175 00:09:03,140 --> 00:09:06,420 novels? True crime? Not novels. True crime, 176 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:07,180 nonfiction. 177 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:09,260 Caitlin Rother: Like, thank you for making that distinction 178 00:09:09,260 --> 00:09:10,820 because a lot of people don't seem to understand 179 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:13,540 that there's no such thing as a true crime novel. 180 00:09:13,540 --> 00:09:15,780 Yeah, there's no. Often say that makes me crazy. 181 00:09:16,260 --> 00:09:21,990 So when I was, I have been writing fiction for a 182 00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:25,470 lot of my life. when I was just, starting out as a 183 00:09:25,470 --> 00:09:29,030 cub reporter, I was back in Massachusetts. And 184 00:09:29,270 --> 00:09:31,110 just like Katrina, she worked in Northampton, 185 00:09:31,110 --> 00:09:33,190 Massachusetts. Gee, guess what? So did I, 186 00:09:33,550 --> 00:09:34,830 Jeniffer: Write what you know. Write what you know. 187 00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:36,630 Caitlin Rother: Yeah, yeah. Well, I thought, you know, what the 188 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:40,310 heck, right? So I was, hired as a part time 189 00:09:40,310 --> 00:09:43,320 reporter at the Springfield Union News. because 190 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,660 they had this whole exploitative system where you 191 00:09:47,660 --> 00:09:49,780 had full time reporters and you had a whole bunch 192 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:53,260 of part timers who worked full time gigs but 193 00:09:53,260 --> 00:09:55,700 didn't get health benefits. So that was really a 194 00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:58,820 lot of fun. So I would work a full time schedule 195 00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:01,380 and I would write these long investigative stories 196 00:10:01,380 --> 00:10:04,020 and that's eventually how I got hired. But, 197 00:10:04,990 --> 00:10:07,310 basically I wouldn't start work. My shift didn't 198 00:10:07,310 --> 00:10:09,310 start till 3 o' clock because those were the days 199 00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:11,830 when we would cover a lot of meetings. Because in 200 00:10:11,830 --> 00:10:15,540 Massachusetts we would cover towns or cities. And 201 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:17,380 so they're like their own little government. They 202 00:10:17,380 --> 00:10:19,740 don't have really a county government there. They 203 00:10:19,740 --> 00:10:21,540 have state government and they have local 204 00:10:21,540 --> 00:10:24,460 government. And so I would cover, you know, a city 205 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:28,230 and cover everything in it. Right. And so, it was 206 00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:31,150 just, I had all this time on my hands, so I would 207 00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:33,550 go get my coffee in the morning and I would start, 208 00:10:33,790 --> 00:10:36,590 you know, I would write stories, short stories, 209 00:10:36,670 --> 00:10:39,030 and I was trying to get published short stories 210 00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:41,550 first. And then eventually once I got hired full 211 00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:43,710 time, I still wanted to keep it up. So I started 212 00:10:43,710 --> 00:10:48,810 doing writing workshops and I would produce these 213 00:10:48,810 --> 00:10:51,370 little germs. So they did trigger exercise and 214 00:10:51,450 --> 00:10:53,850 we'd all write for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, and 215 00:10:53,850 --> 00:10:55,930 then if you wanted to, you would read it aloud. 216 00:10:55,930 --> 00:10:58,810 Well, I did that for a year and I produced a bunch 217 00:10:58,810 --> 00:11:01,970 of these little germs that I then put into my 218 00:11:01,970 --> 00:11:04,970 first novel, which is actually the prequel to this 219 00:11:04,970 --> 00:11:07,810 series. It's called Naked Addiction. And it, and 220 00:11:07,810 --> 00:11:10,890 it features the same detective, Ken Good, but not 221 00:11:10,890 --> 00:11:13,700 Katrina Chopin, because she's part of the new 222 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:16,300 series. So there's, you know, a lot of backstory 223 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:18,860 stuff, but that's basically how I started, was 224 00:11:18,860 --> 00:11:21,060 writing this novel and I just couldn't get it 225 00:11:21,060 --> 00:11:24,140 published. So 17 years I was going to writing 226 00:11:24,140 --> 00:11:27,180 conferences, I was meeting editors, I was looking 227 00:11:27,180 --> 00:11:29,300 for agents. I just couldn't get published. Because 228 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,460 your first book and trying to get a novel 229 00:11:32,460 --> 00:11:34,580 published, that's pretty hard. So I thought, well, 230 00:11:34,580 --> 00:11:37,580 okay, I'm a newspaper reporter, I'm a professional 231 00:11:37,660 --> 00:11:41,340 writer. Why don't I try nonfiction? And so, yeah. 232 00:11:41,340 --> 00:11:44,060 So, there was a court case, the Kristin Rossum 233 00:11:44,060 --> 00:11:45,480 case. I don't know if you remember that one here 234 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,720 in San Diego. The beautiful toxicologist who 235 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,160 worked at the medical examiner's office who stole, 236 00:11:52,630 --> 00:11:56,910 fentanyl from the lab. And this was. Fentanyl was 237 00:11:56,910 --> 00:11:59,430 not available like it is now. It was basically 238 00:11:59,430 --> 00:12:01,590 very controlled. You'd get it at a hospital, you 239 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:05,070 could get it at the ME's toxicology lab, but you 240 00:12:05,070 --> 00:12:07,590 couldn't get it on the street. So she basically 241 00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:11,000 poisoned her husband with these, fentanyl patches 242 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,320 or a little vial of fentanyl citrate, which is 243 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,520 like enough in a sweet and low packet would kill 244 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,840 10 people. That's how strong it is. So she somehow 245 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,360 poisoned him. And then she told this whole story 246 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,400 about how he had sedated himself because he was 247 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,800 depressed she was leaving him. And then he 248 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,840 sprinkled red rose petals over himself, you know, 249 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,360 in this dramatic gesture. So anyway, turns out she 250 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,120 was convicted and they found all this fentanyl in 251 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:45,640 his system. And, that was my first court case that 252 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,680 I covered from beginning to end. And then that was 253 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:51,120 my first book is called Poisoned Love, based on 254 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,520 that. And I was like, it took off and it was huge. 255 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,320 And so it's my best selling book to date, as a 256 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,720 matter of fact still. So that's how I got started, 257 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,440 was in true crime because I couldn't get my novel 258 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,640 published. And once I did get it published, 17 259 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,930 years it took to get it published. I just didn't 260 00:13:07,930 --> 00:13:12,050 really know what I was doing. So it basically I 261 00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:15,530 needed to do all the research that I did when I 262 00:13:15,530 --> 00:13:19,450 wrote 12 true crime books of interviewing 263 00:13:19,450 --> 00:13:21,970 detectives and reading investigative reports and 264 00:13:21,970 --> 00:13:24,210 following a case from the beginning to the end and 265 00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:26,730 going to the trials and interviewing people and 266 00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:29,770 reading the detectives witness interviews and 267 00:13:29,850 --> 00:13:32,690 listening to audio of them interviewing. So I know 268 00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:35,330 how the detectives think, I know how they talk. I 269 00:13:35,330 --> 00:13:38,900 know about their interaction, you know, with these 270 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:41,100 witnesses and in what order they do these 271 00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:44,260 investigations, what the protocols are. And now I 272 00:13:44,260 --> 00:13:46,580 know all that stuff. And so now it comes naturally 273 00:13:46,580 --> 00:13:49,540 to my characters. It didn't before. So I feel like 274 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:52,540 my dream was to write crime fiction, not to write 275 00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:55,380 true crime. It's just that the way it played out 276 00:13:55,860 --> 00:13:58,780 was just the realities of the business and I just 277 00:13:58,780 --> 00:14:00,660 didn't know. I, didn't know. I didn't know what I 278 00:14:00,660 --> 00:14:03,740 didn't know, you know. And so now I know it. 279 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:06,060 Jeniffer: I love that you share this story that you're 280 00:14:06,060 --> 00:14:07,620 telling us in your author's note and your 281 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:09,920 acknowledgments of the book. Because it's so 282 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,080 interesting, you know, you read a book and you 283 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,160 think, wow, it's so perfect. It came together that 284 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,400 way, right? Oh, hell no. Oh, hell no. And you 285 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,950 mentioned Michael Connelly had, a tip for you when 286 00:14:20,950 --> 00:14:23,390 you first wrote this book and you were getting 287 00:14:23,390 --> 00:14:25,070 rejections, right? 288 00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:27,350 Caitlin Rother: So people say, oh, you know Michael Connelly? 289 00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:29,270 Well, no, it's not like we're best friends or 290 00:14:29,270 --> 00:14:32,580 anything, but he, My boyfriend when I worked at 291 00:14:32,580 --> 00:14:35,300 the LA Times was his former editor. 292 00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:36,350 Jeniffer: Oh, nice. 293 00:14:36,350 --> 00:14:38,030 Caitlin Rother: So they were friends. And so like, you know, we 294 00:14:38,030 --> 00:14:40,670 all went to a YouTube concert together. You know, 295 00:14:40,670 --> 00:14:43,710 they stayed friends. And so years later, you know, 296 00:14:43,710 --> 00:14:46,310 I'm right trying to write this. I'm trying to get 297 00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:49,070 Naked Addiction published. I still can't get it 298 00:14:49,070 --> 00:14:51,389 published, so I'm getting Poison Love published. 299 00:14:51,389 --> 00:14:53,750 And I sent him an email and I said, hey, would you 300 00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:55,670 be willing to do a blurb for me on this book, 301 00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:57,750 Poison Love? He goes, don't you have a novel 302 00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:59,950 you're working on? I go, yeah, but I don't have a 303 00:14:59,950 --> 00:15:01,710 contract or anything. He goes, well, why don't I 304 00:15:01,710 --> 00:15:03,940 read that? Maybe it'll help. Maybe it'll help you 305 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:06,900 get published. And I was like, okay, I guess. He 306 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:09,660 goes, I only do one blurb per author, per 307 00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:11,780 lifetime. So it was a risk because if he didn't 308 00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:13,940 like it, then I would have wasted my one chance at 309 00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:16,620 a Michael Connelly blurb. So anyway, he read the 310 00:15:16,620 --> 00:15:20,820 manuscript and as I said in the acknowledgments, I 311 00:15:20,820 --> 00:15:23,740 was perfectly honest. He said, look, the one thing 312 00:15:23,740 --> 00:15:26,860 you do really well is character. And that's not 313 00:15:26,860 --> 00:15:29,450 something you can learn. That's just natural to 314 00:15:29,450 --> 00:15:31,250 you. Or you either know how to do that or you 315 00:15:31,250 --> 00:15:34,970 don't. But what you don't seem, you know, what you 316 00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:39,250 don't really know how to do as well is police 317 00:15:39,250 --> 00:15:41,610 procedure. And because that's what I'm known for, 318 00:15:41,610 --> 00:15:44,210 I can't really give you a blurb with the title of 319 00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:46,490 the book in it, because people would expect you to 320 00:15:46,490 --> 00:15:49,330 meet a certain standard. And to be honest, your 321 00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:52,970 procedural stuff is kind of amateurish. And I was 322 00:15:52,970 --> 00:15:56,970 like, okay. And he goes, and by the way, I knew 323 00:15:56,970 --> 00:15:59,010 too early it was too obvious who the killer was. 324 00:15:59,690 --> 00:16:02,530 So, anyway, I basically revamped my story and 325 00:16:02,530 --> 00:16:05,650 layered in some stuff and made somebody else the 326 00:16:05,650 --> 00:16:08,410 killer based on his critique, which was so nice of 327 00:16:08,410 --> 00:16:11,170 him to do. And he said, oh, I'm so relieved that 328 00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:13,570 you're open to this. Like, he was worried that I 329 00:16:13,570 --> 00:16:15,730 was going to be upset. I'm like, oh, my God. 330 00:16:15,730 --> 00:16:18,850 Critique from Michael Connelly. God, please bring 331 00:16:18,850 --> 00:16:19,290 it on. 332 00:16:19,290 --> 00:16:19,810 Jeniffer: Amazing. 333 00:16:19,810 --> 00:16:23,180 Caitlin Rother: So, yeah, so then I was able to sell the book, but 334 00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:26,500 then I couldn't sell the sequel, which was hooked 335 00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:30,060 in its original form. And I went through three 336 00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:32,840 ages before I finally found one who was willing to 337 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,600 even send it out again. I had to rewrite it 338 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,040 multiple times. I started it over in a fresh file, 339 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,600 in fact, because my. One of my editors, one of my 340 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,760 agents was like, well, there's too much telling 341 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,719 and not enough showing. And I know you have the 342 00:16:46,719 --> 00:16:49,080 chops to do this, so just open a new file and 343 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,000 start over. I'm like, okay, great. 344 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:52,880 Jeniffer: I can't imagine. 345 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,150 Caitlin Rother: So, anyway, 17 years later, here's Hooked. 346 00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:59,270 Jeniffer: Worth the wait. 347 00:16:59,270 --> 00:17:01,710 I mean, well, and you say, like, learning how to 348 00:17:01,710 --> 00:17:06,050 tell, think, and talk was so integral. At what 349 00:17:06,050 --> 00:17:08,090 point did you know you needed to add in another 350 00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:09,570 protagonist, a female? 351 00:17:09,970 --> 00:17:12,410 Caitlin Rother: I always had another one. And I think the funny 352 00:17:12,410 --> 00:17:15,250 thing is that I don't think that the agents who 353 00:17:15,250 --> 00:17:17,490 read it early on, they were ready for that, 354 00:17:17,570 --> 00:17:20,250 because detective novels were just one detective 355 00:17:20,250 --> 00:17:23,450 period. Right. You didn't have to. But then I 356 00:17:23,450 --> 00:17:25,450 think on tv, you know, they started having, like, 357 00:17:25,450 --> 00:17:27,610 that stupid show, I'm Sorry, Castle, which I just 358 00:17:27,610 --> 00:17:30,170 think is kind of lame, because the reporter's lame 359 00:17:30,170 --> 00:17:32,490 and the detective seems kind of lame, but that's 360 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:34,190 kind of one of those couples where. Where you have 361 00:17:34,190 --> 00:17:36,990 a reporter, and it's so unbelievable. It just is 362 00:17:36,990 --> 00:17:37,710 silly to me. 363 00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:40,270 Jeniffer: So I'm just watching it then. Yeah. Yeah. We won't 364 00:17:40,270 --> 00:17:41,070 even go there. Yeah. 365 00:17:41,790 --> 00:17:44,110 Caitlin Rother: I mean, I just happened to see it on tv. But I'm 366 00:17:44,110 --> 00:17:45,870 just using that as an example because it's a 367 00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:50,571 reporter and a police detective. So, But the idea 368 00:17:50,571 --> 00:17:53,211 of that I had from the very beginning, I thought 369 00:17:53,211 --> 00:17:56,511 to myself, well, okay, I think Patricia Cornwell 370 00:17:56,511 --> 00:17:59,311 had a problem early on as well that she needed to 371 00:17:59,311 --> 00:18:01,191 do a female character. And I thought that's what I 372 00:18:01,191 --> 00:18:03,231 wanted to do too. But I really wanted to keep Ken 373 00:18:03,231 --> 00:18:06,571 good. So I wanted to have them both be primary. 374 00:18:06,731 --> 00:18:09,611 I'm going to have them have the book really be 375 00:18:09,611 --> 00:18:12,091 based on the chemistry and the conflict between 376 00:18:12,091 --> 00:18:14,651 them. And that would be what the book, the dynamic 377 00:18:14,651 --> 00:18:16,691 of the book. So it would be the premise and the 378 00:18:16,691 --> 00:18:19,611 dynamic, and then, you know, make the plot, weave 379 00:18:19,611 --> 00:18:21,691 the plot, make that about a whole bunch of other 380 00:18:21,691 --> 00:18:25,251 things. And that's what I did. And I honestly 381 00:18:25,251 --> 00:18:28,811 think that the. The first. The agents that I had 382 00:18:28,811 --> 00:18:32,381 who passed on this were men. I really feel like 383 00:18:33,331 --> 00:18:37,511 women, seem much more excited about this book. I 384 00:18:37,511 --> 00:18:40,311 mean, men like it too, but I have found that the 385 00:18:40,311 --> 00:18:45,111 women seem to really like it and are more willing 386 00:18:45,111 --> 00:18:47,671 to take a chance. And then everybody seems to like 387 00:18:47,671 --> 00:18:51,111 it now. But I'm just saying, early on, they just 388 00:18:51,111 --> 00:18:53,471 didn't seem like, oh, the two protagonists thing. 389 00:18:53,471 --> 00:18:55,191 Oh, no, I don't really know about that. You know, 390 00:18:55,191 --> 00:18:56,031 it's like, come on. 391 00:18:56,271 --> 00:18:56,751 Jeniffer: Yeah. 392 00:18:56,831 --> 00:18:59,031 Caitlin Rother: So I think it was just. Maybe it was before it's 393 00:18:59,031 --> 00:19:00,031 time and now it's. 394 00:19:00,271 --> 00:19:02,401 Jeniffer: I don't know that's entirely possible. 395 00:19:02,561 --> 00:19:03,721 Caitlin Rother: I mean, I love their. 396 00:19:03,721 --> 00:19:06,801 Jeniffer: Dang. Their dynamic. Like the sexual tension and 397 00:19:06,801 --> 00:19:09,841 the chemistry is so alive. And that's another 398 00:19:09,841 --> 00:19:11,801 thing you mentioned in your author note, which I 399 00:19:11,801 --> 00:19:14,361 hate to give it away because the author's note and 400 00:19:14,361 --> 00:19:16,201 the acknowledgments is sort of like dessert to me. 401 00:19:16,201 --> 00:19:17,001 Like, that's the last thing. 402 00:19:17,001 --> 00:19:18,721 Caitlin Rother: And they're at the end of the book for a reason. 403 00:19:18,801 --> 00:19:20,801 Exactly. So no spoilers. 404 00:19:20,881 --> 00:19:22,841 Jeniffer: No spoilers. But, you know, there are people gave 405 00:19:22,841 --> 00:19:27,601 you critiques that you fixed. I mean, you 406 00:19:27,601 --> 00:19:29,641 absolutely nailed it. And this book is. 407 00:19:29,641 --> 00:19:30,121 Caitlin Rother: Thank you. 408 00:19:30,121 --> 00:19:30,881 Jeniffer: Is alive. 409 00:19:31,001 --> 00:19:32,781 I want to talk about the details in your writing, 410 00:19:32,931 --> 00:19:36,731 which I'm sure are directly related to you as an 411 00:19:36,731 --> 00:19:39,931 investigative reporter. You know, it's clear that 412 00:19:39,931 --> 00:19:42,491 you are a meticulous investigative reporter, which 413 00:19:42,491 --> 00:19:45,611 is why you've been so successful. And, you know, 414 00:19:45,611 --> 00:19:49,651 it's just makes our female protagonist just come 415 00:19:49,651 --> 00:19:52,851 alive. Like she's almost solving the case for Ken. 416 00:19:53,331 --> 00:19:53,731 Caitlin Rother: Right. 417 00:19:53,891 --> 00:19:55,411 Jeniffer: But of course, there's back and forth they're 418 00:19:55,411 --> 00:19:57,331 helping each other through, you know, throughout 419 00:19:57,331 --> 00:20:00,131 the book. But she must have been so much fun to 420 00:20:00,131 --> 00:20:04,441 write. And so I just gotta ask you now, did she 421 00:20:04,441 --> 00:20:07,281 come easy or did she evolve over time? 422 00:20:07,521 --> 00:20:10,361 Caitlin Rother: She evolved over time. And Ken Good has evolved 423 00:20:10,361 --> 00:20:13,281 over time too. So remember way back when, when I 424 00:20:13,281 --> 00:20:15,921 wrote Naked Addiction? Honestly, it took 17 years 425 00:20:15,921 --> 00:20:18,241 to get that book published. And it's taken 17 426 00:20:18,241 --> 00:20:21,121 years now to get this book published. So when I 427 00:20:21,121 --> 00:20:24,161 first started writing Ken Good, I was in my 30s. 428 00:20:24,721 --> 00:20:28,201 The characters are in their 30s now. I think I 429 00:20:28,201 --> 00:20:31,361 was. I'm still the same person, but I don't 430 00:20:31,361 --> 00:20:34,951 approach sex in my mind the same way. I don't 431 00:20:35,101 --> 00:20:37,261 about sex the same way. So that was a little bit 432 00:20:37,261 --> 00:20:39,541 of a challenge, to be honest, that I had to put 433 00:20:39,541 --> 00:20:43,821 myself back into the mindset of somebody who was 434 00:20:43,821 --> 00:20:49,211 35 years old. Right. And he's 37. But, so. And 435 00:20:49,211 --> 00:20:51,931 then the other issue was when I first wrote her, 436 00:20:52,331 --> 00:20:55,651 my. My agent who originally told me to, you know, 437 00:20:55,651 --> 00:20:58,531 open a clean file, who didn't really get the 438 00:20:58,531 --> 00:21:01,171 premise, didn't appreciate the premise. I told him 439 00:21:01,171 --> 00:21:03,731 about this sex drug that I made up, which 440 00:21:03,731 --> 00:21:08,021 basically is supposed to make you feel that 441 00:21:08,021 --> 00:21:10,501 infatuation and that attraction that you feel 442 00:21:10,501 --> 00:21:12,621 really, really early on. And it's supposed to just 443 00:21:12,621 --> 00:21:14,861 perpetuate that for as long as you're taking the 444 00:21:14,861 --> 00:21:16,661 drug. So that if you're in a long term 445 00:21:16,661 --> 00:21:18,981 relationship, it's supposed to reinvigorate that 446 00:21:19,301 --> 00:21:21,781 feeling, that, that sexual attraction and that 447 00:21:21,781 --> 00:21:24,821 infatuation. And it's all dopamine, right? So it's 448 00:21:24,821 --> 00:21:27,781 all about dopamine and that burst and that reward 449 00:21:27,781 --> 00:21:30,221 and all of that. He just was like, oh, that sounds 450 00:21:30,221 --> 00:21:32,261 exhausting. And I'm like, oh my God, he's totally 451 00:21:32,261 --> 00:21:33,061 missing the point. 452 00:21:33,141 --> 00:21:33,581 Jeniffer: Totally. 453 00:21:33,581 --> 00:21:35,861 Caitlin Rother: Yeah. Ah, you know, so I mean, I didn't have a 454 00:21:35,861 --> 00:21:38,781 cheerleader to start with. And he said, and by the 455 00:21:38,781 --> 00:21:41,541 way, this isn't. You don't try to make her. You, 456 00:21:42,341 --> 00:21:45,021 make her somebody else. And so I actually 457 00:21:45,021 --> 00:21:48,821 originally had her be a lot more sexual. But I 458 00:21:49,221 --> 00:21:52,301 also figured that just the way society is and 459 00:21:52,301 --> 00:21:55,181 women are so judgmental of other women that I 460 00:21:55,181 --> 00:21:59,021 wanted readers to accept her. So I kind of played 461 00:21:59,021 --> 00:22:02,061 that down. So I want her to be sexual because this 462 00:22:02,061 --> 00:22:05,101 is a book about a, you know, sex drug. Honestly, 463 00:22:05,101 --> 00:22:06,861 that's one of the themes, right? And the 464 00:22:06,861 --> 00:22:09,761 corruption is. Well, the company that is 465 00:22:09,761 --> 00:22:12,281 developing this sex drug, somebody involved in the 466 00:22:12,281 --> 00:22:15,351 company wants to get the FDA to, expedite the 467 00:22:15,351 --> 00:22:17,911 approval, which they don't do unless it's an 468 00:22:17,911 --> 00:22:20,311 emergency COVID vaccine or something. Right? This 469 00:22:20,311 --> 00:22:25,311 is a sex drug, is not an Emergency. So anyway, I. 470 00:22:25,871 --> 00:22:26,671 Jeniffer: That's how you say. 471 00:22:28,831 --> 00:22:31,511 Caitlin Rother: I had to play with her a little bit. And then. And 472 00:22:31,511 --> 00:22:35,091 then Ken Good was much more, I think, kind of. He 473 00:22:35,091 --> 00:22:37,891 seemed like, to me, the way I remember, he was 474 00:22:37,891 --> 00:22:42,281 kind of more frustrated and distrusting and, a 475 00:22:42,281 --> 00:22:46,351 little more angry in Naked Addiction, because it's 476 00:22:46,351 --> 00:22:49,871 about, you know, it opens with him on the Coronado 477 00:22:49,871 --> 00:22:54,381 Bridge, remembering when his mother drove him 478 00:22:54,381 --> 00:22:58,141 there when he was six years old and got out of the 479 00:22:58,141 --> 00:23:01,781 car, put her high heels on the driver's seat, gave 480 00:23:01,781 --> 00:23:04,981 him a melancholy smile, went behind the car and 481 00:23:05,301 --> 00:23:08,821 climbed over the railing and jumped off. So 482 00:23:08,821 --> 00:23:14,021 suicide is part of. Is one of the sub threads in 483 00:23:14,021 --> 00:23:17,391 this series. and it's not in every book, but there 484 00:23:17,391 --> 00:23:20,551 are. There are. That's a theme. And addiction is 485 00:23:20,551 --> 00:23:23,891 as well. and mental illness and all that sort of 486 00:23:24,611 --> 00:23:27,771 fun stuff, which are also themes that I am drawn 487 00:23:27,771 --> 00:23:28,991 to in my nonfiction. 488 00:23:29,541 --> 00:23:29,861 Jeniffer: Yeah. 489 00:23:30,341 --> 00:23:34,891 Caitlin Rother: So anyway, I made her. I kind of shaped them both 490 00:23:35,691 --> 00:23:38,451 based on who I am now, but trying to remember who 491 00:23:38,451 --> 00:23:41,011 I used to be and trying to give her some of my 492 00:23:41,011 --> 00:23:45,331 stories and give them both parts of me, but I had 493 00:23:45,331 --> 00:23:47,411 to. That was a little bit of a challenge since so 494 00:23:47,411 --> 00:23:50,451 much time has passed to try to write younger 495 00:23:50,451 --> 00:23:53,731 characters. But I went through a lot of stuff when 496 00:23:53,731 --> 00:23:56,131 I was young with the dating world and all that 497 00:23:56,131 --> 00:23:59,101 nonsense. So, that's still pretty burned into my 498 00:23:59,101 --> 00:23:59,411 brain. 499 00:24:01,081 --> 00:24:05,521 Jeniffer: I mean, you. You have experience with suicide in 500 00:24:05,521 --> 00:24:06,281 your personal life? 501 00:24:06,441 --> 00:24:10,441 Caitlin Rother: Yes, I do. My. My late husband killed himself. So, 502 00:24:10,561 --> 00:24:13,531 Yeah, I know a lot about it. So. And how it sort 503 00:24:13,531 --> 00:24:15,891 of, kind of sticks with me. And I wrote about it 504 00:24:15,891 --> 00:24:17,971 before he killed himself too. So, I mean, it's 505 00:24:17,971 --> 00:24:19,011 kind of always been there. 506 00:24:19,571 --> 00:24:20,291 Jeniffer: Interesting. 507 00:24:20,451 --> 00:24:22,371 Caitlin Rother: I don't know why, but it's just one of those 508 00:24:22,371 --> 00:24:22,691 things. 509 00:24:22,851 --> 00:24:24,611 Jeniffer: Well, you are a crime writer and. 510 00:24:25,651 --> 00:24:28,291 Caitlin Rother: But I think there's a reason why I became a crime 511 00:24:28,291 --> 00:24:30,981 writer. Right. I mean, you know. 512 00:24:31,301 --> 00:24:34,061 Jeniffer: So when you were a little girl, did you watch the 513 00:24:34,061 --> 00:24:35,741 news or were you interested? 514 00:24:35,741 --> 00:24:37,061 Caitlin Rother: No, not at all. 515 00:24:37,941 --> 00:24:38,501 Jeniffer: Okay. 516 00:24:38,981 --> 00:24:42,871 Caitlin Rother: My, My parents had the LA Times in the house, and 517 00:24:42,871 --> 00:24:45,191 I read the comics, and that was pretty much m. 518 00:24:45,191 --> 00:24:46,751 Maybe the horoscope. I don't know. 519 00:24:46,751 --> 00:24:47,791 Jeniffer: Where did you grow up? 520 00:24:48,541 --> 00:24:52,371 Caitlin Rother: well, I went to, We moved to San Diego when I was, 521 00:24:52,831 --> 00:24:54,841 in the first grade. We went to three. I went to 522 00:24:54,841 --> 00:24:57,691 three different elementary schools in San Diego, 523 00:24:57,691 --> 00:25:01,091 and then we moved to La Jolla when I was in the 524 00:25:01,091 --> 00:25:03,211 summer before seventh grade. So I went to junior 525 00:25:03,211 --> 00:25:05,651 high and high school in La Jolla, went to UCSD for 526 00:25:05,651 --> 00:25:07,651 a couple quarters, transferred to Berkeley, and 527 00:25:07,651 --> 00:25:12,691 then I moved, did my master's at Medill outside of 528 00:25:12,691 --> 00:25:15,251 Chicago, and then I moved to the east coast to 529 00:25:15,411 --> 00:25:18,771 work. And then I made my way back to San Diego and 530 00:25:18,771 --> 00:25:21,091 here you are. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. I came back to 531 00:25:21,411 --> 00:25:25,491 Ventura county and LA and then San Diego. So I've 532 00:25:25,491 --> 00:25:28,101 been all over. And so, so, you know, a lot of 533 00:25:28,101 --> 00:25:31,501 experience in the news business and a lot of 534 00:25:31,501 --> 00:25:32,741 living in different places. 535 00:25:32,741 --> 00:25:36,421 Jeniffer: And in a lot of ways, I think one of the things I 536 00:25:36,421 --> 00:25:38,901 enjoyed most about reading this book was just this 537 00:25:38,901 --> 00:25:41,381 beautiful romp through San Diego and La Jolla in 538 00:25:41,381 --> 00:25:41,661 particular. 539 00:25:42,221 --> 00:25:43,341 Caitlin Rother: Oh, good, thanks. 540 00:25:43,341 --> 00:25:46,101 Jeniffer: And it was so much fun to know exactly where we 541 00:25:46,101 --> 00:25:48,461 are in town, you know, where the scene is, like 542 00:25:48,461 --> 00:25:50,701 right down to the street. But what really 543 00:25:50,781 --> 00:25:55,791 impressed me with how you, you give. You, you did 544 00:25:55,791 --> 00:25:58,511 this really well. Anyone not familiar with San 545 00:25:58,511 --> 00:26:02,071 Diego, you gave them history and details that 546 00:26:02,071 --> 00:26:05,491 bring our city to life without it seeming odd. And 547 00:26:05,701 --> 00:26:07,901 you don't usually see that in fiction. You see it 548 00:26:07,901 --> 00:26:11,901 in reporting for sure. But you managed to marry 549 00:26:11,901 --> 00:26:14,571 those two in a really seamless way that, I really 550 00:26:14,571 --> 00:26:16,651 enjoyed. And I'm sure anyone who doesn't live here 551 00:26:16,651 --> 00:26:20,101 with love as well. No. Did you realize you were 552 00:26:20,101 --> 00:26:20,541 doing that? 553 00:26:20,621 --> 00:26:21,621 Caitlin Rother: Oh, of course, yes. 554 00:26:21,621 --> 00:26:22,581 Jeniffer: Yes, of course you did. 555 00:26:22,581 --> 00:26:26,781 Caitlin Rother: Of course. I mean, I really think it's important 556 00:26:26,781 --> 00:26:29,341 to ground the reader so you know what you're 557 00:26:29,341 --> 00:26:31,101 looking at, you know where you are, you know what 558 00:26:31,101 --> 00:26:33,221 you see, you know what you smell and hear and 559 00:26:33,221 --> 00:26:37,491 feel. And, Wind and Sea, where Ken Good is kind of 560 00:26:37,491 --> 00:26:40,601 his second home. He's like a homing pigeon. he'll 561 00:26:40,601 --> 00:26:43,641 leave and he'll come back to Wind and Sea and just 562 00:26:43,641 --> 00:26:45,521 look at the water and connect with the water and 563 00:26:45,521 --> 00:26:47,841 go put his foot in the water. And he's a surfer, 564 00:26:47,921 --> 00:26:50,861 so he loves the ocean. And that's something that 565 00:26:51,021 --> 00:26:53,981 I've always had in me. So I gave it to my 566 00:26:53,981 --> 00:26:56,981 character. And Wind and Sea basically has served 567 00:26:56,981 --> 00:26:59,301 that same purpose for me. I'm just not a surfer. 568 00:26:59,301 --> 00:27:00,141 I'm a swimmer. 569 00:27:00,901 --> 00:27:03,141 Caitlin Rother: I don't swim down there because the waves are 570 00:27:03,381 --> 00:27:06,661 really rough and they're for surfing. So I swam a 571 00:27:06,661 --> 00:27:08,621 lot of years at La Jolla Cove until I got too 572 00:27:08,621 --> 00:27:13,101 smelly with the sea lions. And so now I swim at La 573 00:27:13,101 --> 00:27:14,101 Jolla shore. So. 574 00:27:14,181 --> 00:27:16,581 Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, it is smelly down there 575 00:27:16,581 --> 00:27:17,941 too, which is such a shame. 576 00:27:18,181 --> 00:27:18,661 Caitlin Rother: Yes. 577 00:27:19,861 --> 00:27:23,421 Jeniffer: So one thing I'd like to point out, that you don't 578 00:27:23,421 --> 00:27:25,421 actually use the word fuck. In this novel, they 579 00:27:25,421 --> 00:27:28,901 don't really swear and it was right. And you don't 580 00:27:28,901 --> 00:27:31,021 even really realize it's happening. So tell us 581 00:27:31,021 --> 00:27:33,301 about this decision to not use that word in the 582 00:27:33,301 --> 00:27:33,541 book. 583 00:27:34,581 --> 00:27:38,371 Caitlin Rother: So in my, true crime books, most of my, books are 584 00:27:38,371 --> 00:27:41,051 published by Kensington, which is now putting out 585 00:27:41,051 --> 00:27:45,471 books through their imprint, Citadel. my editor 586 00:27:45,471 --> 00:27:48,471 basically said to me, if, you know, don't use that 587 00:27:48,471 --> 00:27:50,271 word because we're not going to be able to get 588 00:27:50,271 --> 00:27:56,231 your books into Walmart. They have some sort of, I 589 00:27:56,231 --> 00:28:00,021 don't know, some software or something maybe that 590 00:28:00,021 --> 00:28:02,861 searches your book and they don't want that for 591 00:28:02,861 --> 00:28:05,701 their people, like, okay, whatever. So I started 592 00:28:05,701 --> 00:28:10,611 using asterisks, even for shift, you know, and so, 593 00:28:10,771 --> 00:28:13,091 and the copy editor would put the word in and I'd 594 00:28:13,091 --> 00:28:14,971 be like, well, you know, my editor doesn't want 595 00:28:14,971 --> 00:28:16,891 that in there. And she's like, really? Why? And 596 00:28:16,891 --> 00:28:19,091 so, because this is how they talk. This is how 597 00:28:19,091 --> 00:28:23,361 reporters and this is how, detectives talk. They, 598 00:28:23,361 --> 00:28:26,241 they use that word a lot. You know, they, they use 599 00:28:26,241 --> 00:28:30,121 the word fuck a lot. So. And honestly, I do too. I 600 00:28:30,121 --> 00:28:32,161 don't do it in front of people, probably because I 601 00:28:32,161 --> 00:28:35,041 don't want to be seen as a foul mouth, you know, 602 00:28:35,041 --> 00:28:38,001 sailor, but whatever. But I wanted it to be real, 603 00:28:38,081 --> 00:28:41,851 so I used the word effing. so they're so cussing. 604 00:28:41,851 --> 00:28:45,011 It's just not going to offend anybody because I've 605 00:28:45,011 --> 00:28:48,291 seen other authors posting their reviews and there 606 00:28:48,291 --> 00:28:50,531 are people out there who get really, really 607 00:28:50,531 --> 00:28:53,451 offended and will refuse to buy the book. They'll 608 00:28:53,451 --> 00:28:55,690 give you a bad review. They'll give you like a one 609 00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:57,451 or two star review because you're using 610 00:28:57,451 --> 00:29:00,171 expletives. And I thought, you know, why make an 611 00:29:00,171 --> 00:29:02,531 issue when there doesn't need to be? I mean, I'll 612 00:29:02,531 --> 00:29:06,011 just use effing or frickin. And so I'm still using 613 00:29:06,011 --> 00:29:08,131 the word, but it's in a way that won't offend 614 00:29:08,131 --> 00:29:10,811 people. And that was my, my, that was my thought 615 00:29:11,051 --> 00:29:11,611 on that. 616 00:29:11,691 --> 00:29:12,491 Jeniffer: And it works. 617 00:29:12,991 --> 00:29:15,751 Caitlin Rother: I'm glad, I'm glad because I mean I, I did make a 618 00:29:15,751 --> 00:29:18,951 decision on that. I, every once in a while I think 619 00:29:18,951 --> 00:29:21,471 I might use it. If it's, if it's really necessary, 620 00:29:21,471 --> 00:29:23,791 I'll use it because it's a strong word and it does 621 00:29:23,791 --> 00:29:26,151 need to be used sometimes. And when you're 622 00:29:26,151 --> 00:29:29,231 exclaiming something and you're really mad or 623 00:29:29,231 --> 00:29:32,031 you're pissed off or you hurt yourself, I mean, 624 00:29:32,511 --> 00:29:34,191 I'm going to use that word. I'm not going to Say 625 00:29:34,191 --> 00:29:36,991 effing. You know, I don't say effing unless I'm 626 00:29:36,991 --> 00:29:39,551 trying not to offend somebody. Sure, I tried. Or I 627 00:29:39,551 --> 00:29:42,011 don't use it at all. You know, sometimes what I'll 628 00:29:42,011 --> 00:29:43,811 do is I'll actually take the word out of the 629 00:29:43,811 --> 00:29:46,771 sentence entirely and see how it reads. And if I 630 00:29:46,771 --> 00:29:50,131 don't need it, I'll take it out entirely and not 631 00:29:50,131 --> 00:29:53,211 even use effing. Because the more you use 632 00:29:53,371 --> 00:29:55,291 expletives, even if you're not using the real 633 00:29:55,291 --> 00:29:57,881 word. I just think it's lazy, you know? 634 00:29:57,881 --> 00:29:58,401 Jeniffer: Well, sure. 635 00:29:58,801 --> 00:30:01,241 Caitlin Rother: Like, comedy can be lazy when people cuss too 636 00:30:01,241 --> 00:30:01,921 much, I think. 637 00:30:02,081 --> 00:30:04,021 Jeniffer: Totally. I totally agree with that. I remember one 638 00:30:04,021 --> 00:30:05,901 of the first times I swore in front of a really 639 00:30:05,901 --> 00:30:07,621 good friend of mine. We'd been hanging out for 640 00:30:07,621 --> 00:30:09,461 years, and one day we were sitting in a bar having 641 00:30:09,461 --> 00:30:10,901 a drink, and she said, oh, my God, I've never 642 00:30:10,901 --> 00:30:12,921 heard you come us. And I said, well, that's 643 00:30:12,921 --> 00:30:14,881 because Penelope's always with us. And, you know, 644 00:30:14,881 --> 00:30:18,361 Penelope was a child. She was like, oh, there's a 645 00:30:18,361 --> 00:30:23,001 time and a place. But those words do. I'm, fond of 646 00:30:23,001 --> 00:30:23,921 them, you know. 647 00:30:24,801 --> 00:30:26,321 Caitlin Rother: In the right moment. In the right moment. In the 648 00:30:26,321 --> 00:30:28,361 right moment. And with. With someone that you feel 649 00:30:28,361 --> 00:30:30,001 safe with. That's very true. 650 00:30:30,001 --> 00:30:30,801 Jeniffer: That's very true. 651 00:30:31,521 --> 00:30:33,281 Caitlin, do you write every day? 652 00:30:35,051 --> 00:30:39,021 Caitlin Rother: I go through phases, and, the. My main frustration 653 00:30:39,181 --> 00:30:42,261 is my body. My body does not want me to write 654 00:30:42,261 --> 00:30:44,521 every day and does not want me to write as much as 655 00:30:44,521 --> 00:30:48,931 I want to write. So, I. You know, I worked for 20 656 00:30:48,931 --> 00:30:53,011 years as a reporter, and I typed a huge amount. So 657 00:30:53,011 --> 00:30:56,531 I put a lot of strain on my body with adrenaline 658 00:30:56,531 --> 00:31:00,491 and deadlines and typing. I used to type my 659 00:31:00,491 --> 00:31:03,251 interviews, which was extra typing on top of 660 00:31:03,251 --> 00:31:05,251 writing my story. I would type all my interviews, 661 00:31:05,251 --> 00:31:08,131 and I typed very fast. Wow. So I would write as 662 00:31:08,131 --> 00:31:10,211 fast as people were talking. Like, I was. Was a 663 00:31:10,211 --> 00:31:13,691 transcriber, which was dumb. So I basically 664 00:31:13,691 --> 00:31:18,211 overused my body over time, and I have very small 665 00:31:18,211 --> 00:31:20,371 bones, and I don't have a lot of muscle tissue. 666 00:31:20,371 --> 00:31:23,811 And so I end up using my tendons too much, and I 667 00:31:23,811 --> 00:31:27,771 have developed problems in my neck. And over time, 668 00:31:27,771 --> 00:31:30,291 I've had periods where I've had to write an entire 669 00:31:30,291 --> 00:31:34,171 book using voice activated software because I 670 00:31:34,171 --> 00:31:37,881 have, just overtaxed my body too much. It just 671 00:31:37,881 --> 00:31:41,901 gives out. So I can't write every day, and I can't 672 00:31:41,901 --> 00:31:44,941 write as many hours a day as I have in me. So I 673 00:31:44,941 --> 00:31:48,581 have to pace myself. Nonetheless, I have I am 674 00:31:48,581 --> 00:31:52,341 like, up to what, almost 60,000 words on a book 675 00:31:52,341 --> 00:31:55,941 that I started on December 13th. So I think that's 676 00:31:55,941 --> 00:31:59,981 kind of a lot. I have weird standards, you know, 677 00:31:59,981 --> 00:32:02,981 of what is not enough a lot. Do you know what I 678 00:32:02,981 --> 00:32:06,101 mean? And that's. I've always been a workaholic. I 679 00:32:06,101 --> 00:32:09,641 just love to work. And you say, oh, 16 books. When 680 00:32:09,641 --> 00:32:11,281 do you have the time? Well, because that's all I 681 00:32:11,281 --> 00:32:14,321 do is work. I don't have a big social life. I 682 00:32:14,321 --> 00:32:18,801 don't have a giant friend crowd. I don't drink 683 00:32:18,801 --> 00:32:22,081 really much anymore because of various health 684 00:32:22,081 --> 00:32:27,561 issues. So I don't go out that much. Anyway, I 685 00:32:27,721 --> 00:32:30,801 work because I enjoy working and I enjoy putting 686 00:32:30,801 --> 00:32:34,111 out books and I enjoy, positive feedback from 687 00:32:34,111 --> 00:32:36,711 people who enjoy my books. And so. That's pretty. 688 00:32:36,951 --> 00:32:39,921 And I play music, when I can, and that's what I 689 00:32:39,921 --> 00:32:40,201 do. 690 00:32:40,441 --> 00:32:42,161 Jeniffer: Yeah, I enjoy working. 691 00:32:42,161 --> 00:32:44,761 Caitlin Rother: I enjoy working. It's fun and it helps me escape 692 00:32:44,761 --> 00:32:47,161 all the nonsense out there. There's so much 693 00:32:47,801 --> 00:32:50,241 garbage happening right now that is so upsetting. 694 00:32:50,241 --> 00:32:52,961 If you let it bother you, I just start writing the 695 00:32:52,961 --> 00:32:55,641 story and I forget about it. Indeed. That's the 696 00:32:55,641 --> 00:32:56,201 fun part. 697 00:32:56,761 --> 00:32:57,561 Jeniffer: Absolutely. 698 00:32:58,361 --> 00:32:59,881 And you're a writing coach as well? 699 00:33:00,761 --> 00:33:03,231 Caitlin Rother: Yeah, not as much anymore. I don't. You know, 700 00:33:03,231 --> 00:33:05,591 people don't seem to really know that I'm a coach 701 00:33:05,671 --> 00:33:08,271 these days, so I don't do that as much. but. But 702 00:33:08,511 --> 00:33:11,511 when I was teaching, I used to teach at UCSD 703 00:33:11,511 --> 00:33:14,911 Extension and San Diego Writers Inc. And my 704 00:33:14,991 --> 00:33:18,391 students would work with me after the class was 705 00:33:18,391 --> 00:33:20,751 over and I would get a lot of coaching clients 706 00:33:20,751 --> 00:33:23,071 that way. But, I mean, I still do it. If anybody 707 00:33:23,071 --> 00:33:25,351 wants to do a session, I'm happy to do that on the 708 00:33:25,351 --> 00:33:28,541 phone. so I don't do that much of it because I'm 709 00:33:28,541 --> 00:33:30,501 also writing all the time these days. 710 00:33:30,581 --> 00:33:31,461 Jeniffer: Sure. Well. 711 00:33:31,541 --> 00:33:33,701 Caitlin Rother: But yeah, I mean, if somebody wants a coaching 712 00:33:33,701 --> 00:33:34,871 session, I still do do it. 713 00:33:35,111 --> 00:33:36,871 Jeniffer: Well, they can find you on your website, which is. 714 00:33:36,871 --> 00:33:37,271 Caitlin Rother: That's right. 715 00:33:37,271 --> 00:33:41,671 Jeniffer: Caitlinrother.com. so if someone did hire you, 716 00:33:41,671 --> 00:33:44,161 what kind of. Is there a specific genre, that you 717 00:33:44,161 --> 00:33:46,321 enjoy working on with clients? 718 00:33:46,881 --> 00:33:50,881 Caitlin Rother: Well, I, I really think I'm the best at doing 719 00:33:50,881 --> 00:33:54,241 front end developmental editing. So I prefer to 720 00:33:54,241 --> 00:33:57,881 talk through ideas with people and research. You 721 00:33:57,881 --> 00:34:00,561 know, research has always been really big for me 722 00:34:00,561 --> 00:34:03,081 because research, when you're doing nonfiction and 723 00:34:03,081 --> 00:34:05,520 true crime is just as important as the writing. 724 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,570 Honestly, it's a separate skill. and people don't 725 00:34:08,570 --> 00:34:11,690 know where to find information. And I've been 726 00:34:11,690 --> 00:34:14,410 trained in that and trained myself to do that for 727 00:34:14,410 --> 00:34:17,730 so many years that, you know, when I started out 728 00:34:17,730 --> 00:34:19,610 as a reporter, it just didn't occur to me that I 729 00:34:19,610 --> 00:34:22,010 could go to this place or that place to find this 730 00:34:22,010 --> 00:34:24,170 information or that information. I just didn't 731 00:34:24,170 --> 00:34:26,290 know. Well, you don't know until you learn, until 732 00:34:26,290 --> 00:34:29,850 you know where the things are. Right. So I help 733 00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:31,900 people with, how to research, where to research, 734 00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:35,381 what to research. I try to steer people, you know, 735 00:34:35,381 --> 00:34:38,341 towards, you know, is this idea marketable or not? 736 00:34:38,341 --> 00:34:42,121 And if it isn't, how, what is it missing? so I, 737 00:34:42,201 --> 00:34:44,041 that's what I like to do the most. There are 738 00:34:44,041 --> 00:34:47,011 people who say, oh, can I send you, I wrote a book 739 00:34:47,011 --> 00:34:50,611 and I put it online and I'm like, well, why didn't 740 00:34:50,611 --> 00:34:53,251 you come to me before you put it online? You know, 741 00:34:53,251 --> 00:34:54,971 because then you read it and you're like, ay, ay, 742 00:34:54,971 --> 00:34:57,371 yai. And then I worked with one woman and she 743 00:34:57,371 --> 00:34:59,411 basically realized she had to take it down and 744 00:34:59,411 --> 00:35:02,591 rewrite the whole thing because she didn't really 745 00:35:02,591 --> 00:35:05,671 know what she was doing. So people who put up 746 00:35:05,671 --> 00:35:07,951 books and they don't, you know, they're trying to 747 00:35:07,951 --> 00:35:10,351 put. Do a true crime book, but they don't know how 748 00:35:10,351 --> 00:35:12,431 to write narrative, they don't know how to write a 749 00:35:12,431 --> 00:35:14,591 scene. They don't know what a scene is, and they 750 00:35:14,591 --> 00:35:18,231 don't know how to make research into a scene. They 751 00:35:18,231 --> 00:35:19,911 don't know any of that. It doesn't even occur to 752 00:35:19,911 --> 00:35:22,111 them because they've never learned a critical 753 00:35:22,111 --> 00:35:25,631 analysis of what makes a good book, you know, So I 754 00:35:25,631 --> 00:35:28,041 have to, That's basically what I start with. I 755 00:35:28,041 --> 00:35:29,801 say, hey, do you know how to write a scene? Let me 756 00:35:29,801 --> 00:35:31,401 teach you how to write a scene. Here are the 757 00:35:31,401 --> 00:35:34,741 elements. And so that's basically what I do. 758 00:35:34,901 --> 00:35:35,381 Jeniffer: Nice. 759 00:35:35,621 --> 00:35:37,341 Caitlin Rother: I mean, it depends on what they want too. 760 00:35:37,341 --> 00:35:39,581 Sometimes people just want to talk and talk 761 00:35:39,581 --> 00:35:41,821 through some ideas. I'm happy to do that too. And 762 00:35:41,821 --> 00:35:44,481 I'm happy to read and critique, you know, a 763 00:35:44,481 --> 00:35:46,761 chapter or whatever. If, if, then I can tell them 764 00:35:46,761 --> 00:35:48,161 what they're doing right and what they're not 765 00:35:48,161 --> 00:35:50,961 doing right and help them steer them on how to 766 00:35:50,961 --> 00:35:52,921 improve. Like this part here is what you want to 767 00:35:52,921 --> 00:35:54,681 do all the way through. You're just doing it in 768 00:35:54,681 --> 00:35:57,401 one paragraph. So do. Do that all the time. Stuff 769 00:35:57,401 --> 00:35:59,081 like that. More of that. 770 00:35:59,161 --> 00:35:59,641 Yeah. 771 00:36:00,301 --> 00:36:03,701 Jeniffer: I know that you are already working on the next 772 00:36:03,701 --> 00:36:05,501 books in the series. Can you tell us where you're 773 00:36:05,501 --> 00:36:08,061 at and when we can expect to get the next book? 774 00:36:08,301 --> 00:36:12,901 Caitlin Rother: Yeah, the next book is called 17 Years. No, 775 00:36:12,901 --> 00:36:15,461 actually I'm much faster now. Like I said, I just 776 00:36:15,461 --> 00:36:18,621 wrote like 60,000 words in a month and a half. So 777 00:36:18,621 --> 00:36:22,981 I'm doing much, much better. So staged is the next 778 00:36:22,981 --> 00:36:25,821 book in the series and it is coming out in June, 779 00:36:26,061 --> 00:36:28,351 so it is available for pre order already. 780 00:36:28,591 --> 00:36:29,391 Jeniffer: Oh my gosh. 781 00:36:29,391 --> 00:36:31,871 Caitlin Rother: I've already written books three and four as well. 782 00:36:32,271 --> 00:36:35,951 So they are under submission with my editor. 783 00:36:36,111 --> 00:36:36,591 Jeniffer: Awesome. 784 00:36:36,591 --> 00:36:39,831 Caitlin Rother: And I hope to be. I hope to get some good news on 785 00:36:39,831 --> 00:36:43,711 at least book three. And then we're not sure 786 00:36:43,871 --> 00:36:47,071 whether she says that debut authors, often they 787 00:36:47,071 --> 00:36:49,591 like to end their series with three books. And no 788 00:36:49,591 --> 00:36:52,031 one told me that. And I wrote book four. So 789 00:36:52,271 --> 00:36:54,711 whether or not she decides she wants to publish 790 00:36:54,711 --> 00:36:56,911 it, I'm going to publish it no matter what because 791 00:36:56,911 --> 00:37:01,091 I really. It's where I feel the story should go. 792 00:37:01,331 --> 00:37:01,851 Jeniffer: Got it. 793 00:37:01,851 --> 00:37:04,771 Caitlin Rother: That's with the story arc. And so the one I'm 794 00:37:04,771 --> 00:37:09,091 writing now was because until she decides whether 795 00:37:09,091 --> 00:37:11,491 she's gonna buy three and four, I needed something 796 00:37:11,491 --> 00:37:14,051 else to do. I already wrote those two books and 797 00:37:14,051 --> 00:37:18,331 I'm m not gonna sit on my thumb. So I started a 798 00:37:18,331 --> 00:37:22,051 new character and a new, plot. And I don't know if 799 00:37:22,051 --> 00:37:24,941 this is gonna be a recurring character or if this 800 00:37:24,941 --> 00:37:27,471 is going to be a standalone, but it, is going to 801 00:37:27,471 --> 00:37:31,791 be a female sheriff's detective this time because 802 00:37:32,351 --> 00:37:35,191 we really don't have the way. If you look at the 803 00:37:35,191 --> 00:37:38,301 crime fiction world, there are authors who have 804 00:37:38,380 --> 00:37:42,021 kind of an area just like in true crime. We're 805 00:37:42,021 --> 00:37:47,821 kind of geographically oriented. So there really 806 00:37:47,821 --> 00:37:50,421 aren't that many crime writers in San Diego. And 807 00:37:50,421 --> 00:37:54,341 there, you know, some. So I said, hey, we don't 808 00:37:54,341 --> 00:37:57,391 have, a sheriff's detective character, female 809 00:37:57,391 --> 00:38:00,391 character. Nobody's writing that in San Diego. So 810 00:38:00,391 --> 00:38:02,911 that seems like a good idea in terms of the 811 00:38:02,911 --> 00:38:06,111 market. And also to do something different from 812 00:38:06,591 --> 00:38:08,431 the existing series. I want to do something 813 00:38:08,431 --> 00:38:10,911 different, start a different series or start a, 814 00:38:10,911 --> 00:38:13,071 you know, just do a separate book. And so that's 815 00:38:13,071 --> 00:38:17,421 what I came up with. And I had an idea, that came 816 00:38:17,421 --> 00:38:19,741 to me when I was sitting at dinner in Coronado. So 817 00:38:19,741 --> 00:38:22,541 I decided that it would be. My brand is kind of 818 00:38:22,681 --> 00:38:25,441 Coronado and La Jolla. So it takes place in those 819 00:38:25,441 --> 00:38:28,081 two cities. And so that's where the characters are 820 00:38:28,081 --> 00:38:31,001 from. And I don't want to say too much more, but, 821 00:38:31,031 --> 00:38:34,071 I'm really enjoying writing this one and I'm, I 822 00:38:34,071 --> 00:38:36,431 just. It's totally different. It's totally 823 00:38:36,431 --> 00:38:36,711 different. 824 00:38:36,951 --> 00:38:40,031 Jeniffer: I love it. Well, that's exciting. So we have a lot 825 00:38:40,031 --> 00:38:42,471 to look forward to from you. So thank you. 826 00:38:42,711 --> 00:38:43,511 Caitlin Rother: No, thank you. 827 00:38:43,831 --> 00:38:46,871 Jeniffer: I have one more question before we close. A lot of 828 00:38:46,871 --> 00:38:50,821 our listeners are writers. M. And you know, we'd 829 00:38:50,821 --> 00:38:53,301 like to maybe end with some advice from you. 830 00:38:54,981 --> 00:39:00,051 Caitlin Rother: Well, I, have a friend who just hit the USA best 831 00:39:00,051 --> 00:39:03,251 selling author list with, with one of her recent 832 00:39:03,251 --> 00:39:05,731 books. And she goes 32 years to be an overnight 833 00:39:05,731 --> 00:39:09,371 success. And so that's kind of how I feel. Here I 834 00:39:09,371 --> 00:39:14,171 am, book number 16. Took me 17 years to get it 835 00:39:14,171 --> 00:39:16,961 published. Like I said, it was supposed to be part 836 00:39:16,961 --> 00:39:19,361 of a series. And the first book took 17 years to 837 00:39:19,361 --> 00:39:23,681 get published too. You know, you don't win if you 838 00:39:23,681 --> 00:39:27,241 give up. You have to just keep going. And I think 839 00:39:27,241 --> 00:39:29,841 people either don't have the talent and give up or 840 00:39:29,841 --> 00:39:32,161 they don't stick with it long enough because this 841 00:39:32,161 --> 00:39:35,481 is the exception are the people who do well right 842 00:39:35,481 --> 00:39:38,681 away. I was really lucky with my very first book 843 00:39:38,681 --> 00:39:41,201 that got published, Poison. Love that it sold so 844 00:39:41,201 --> 00:39:45,651 well. I mean, it's over 100,000 copies. So I mean, 845 00:39:45,811 --> 00:39:48,131 for a first book, that was pretty amazing. And 846 00:39:48,131 --> 00:39:51,361 that was in the days when, print runs were. The 847 00:39:51,361 --> 00:39:53,321 first print run was 40,000 books. 848 00:39:53,401 --> 00:39:53,801 Jeniffer: Sure. 849 00:39:53,961 --> 00:39:57,081 Caitlin Rother: I mean, today I think it's like 3,000 books 850 00:39:58,041 --> 00:39:59,961 because it's just a different world. And so we 851 00:39:59,961 --> 00:40:02,631 have audiobooks now. We have Kindle, which we 852 00:40:02,631 --> 00:40:05,231 didn't really have, you know, back then. And if we 853 00:40:05,231 --> 00:40:08,551 did, they would put the ebook out like two years 854 00:40:08,551 --> 00:40:12,871 later, you know. So things have changed a lot. You 855 00:40:12,871 --> 00:40:16,331 have to really be able to reinvent yourself and 856 00:40:16,331 --> 00:40:18,411 you've got to really keep up with everything 857 00:40:18,411 --> 00:40:20,611 because the marketing and promotions are 858 00:40:20,611 --> 00:40:23,531 constantly changing. It takes so much of your 859 00:40:23,531 --> 00:40:26,171 time. And if you aren't willing to do that part of 860 00:40:26,171 --> 00:40:29,571 it, you aren't going to sell books. So that's one 861 00:40:29,571 --> 00:40:31,491 of the toughest things. I remember when I would 862 00:40:31,491 --> 00:40:34,091 teach writing workshops, I would get some of these 863 00:40:34,091 --> 00:40:37,731 students who refused, like they didn't want to use 864 00:40:37,731 --> 00:40:39,931 their real name and they didn't want to sell books 865 00:40:39,931 --> 00:40:42,171 in a bookstore or hold any kind of public event 866 00:40:42,171 --> 00:40:43,771 because they were. They just didn't want to do 867 00:40:43,771 --> 00:40:45,391 that. They just didn't think they needed, needed 868 00:40:45,391 --> 00:40:46,791 to do that. And I'm like, well, you're not gonna 869 00:40:46,791 --> 00:40:48,831 sell any books. You think the book is just gonna 870 00:40:48,831 --> 00:40:51,911 sell itself. You need to actually be out there and 871 00:40:51,911 --> 00:40:54,151 network and talk to people. And I'm not that great 872 00:40:54,151 --> 00:40:56,231 at that either, but I do get out there as much as 873 00:40:56,231 --> 00:40:56,631 I can. 874 00:40:56,791 --> 00:40:59,231 Jeniffer: So according to your bio, you've been on more than 875 00:40:59,231 --> 00:41:02,551 250 podcasts, TV shows, and radio. I mean, that's 876 00:41:02,551 --> 00:41:03,391 pretty, right? 877 00:41:03,391 --> 00:41:05,591 Caitlin Rother: Oh, I know. I'm fine with doing that stuff, but 878 00:41:05,591 --> 00:41:08,511 I'm the networking stuff with real people outside 879 00:41:08,511 --> 00:41:11,551 of my house. I don't seem to have a lot of time 880 00:41:11,551 --> 00:41:13,591 for that because I'm so busy working on something. 881 00:41:13,671 --> 00:41:15,191 Jeniffer: Yeah, well, you're a writer. I mean, that's. 882 00:41:15,191 --> 00:41:18,161 Caitlin Rother: I'm a writer. And so. And so, you know, I'm not as 883 00:41:18,161 --> 00:41:20,321 comfortable. And Covid really did a number on me 884 00:41:20,321 --> 00:41:23,441 in terms of my ability to, like, deal with other 885 00:41:23,441 --> 00:41:25,681 people. It just took me a long time to kind of 886 00:41:25,681 --> 00:41:29,321 reintegrate into society because, you know, all 887 00:41:29,321 --> 00:41:31,641 that time alone, it's just. It does a number on 888 00:41:31,641 --> 00:41:33,561 you. And then you're like, I don't remember how to 889 00:41:33,561 --> 00:41:35,921 talk to this person. What do I say? You know? 890 00:41:36,241 --> 00:41:38,801 Anyway, I'm doing much better. And I've been on a 891 00:41:38,801 --> 00:41:41,241 never ending book tour for the past year. This is 892 00:41:41,241 --> 00:41:44,121 my third book book. and then I'm gonna have staged 893 00:41:44,121 --> 00:41:46,521 out in June, so I'm gonna have four books out in 894 00:41:46,521 --> 00:41:47,481 like 15 months. 895 00:41:47,561 --> 00:41:48,001 Jeniffer: Wow. 896 00:41:48,001 --> 00:41:51,121 Caitlin Rother: Which is just. It's crazy though. I mean, I keep 897 00:41:51,121 --> 00:41:54,441 track of. I went for four years with no books, and 898 00:41:54,441 --> 00:41:57,241 then now I've got four books in 15 months. And. 899 00:41:57,241 --> 00:41:59,401 And the other thing is, you know, how many times 900 00:41:59,401 --> 00:42:01,401 are you gonna. Are people gonna come out for you 901 00:42:01,801 --> 00:42:03,601 and buy your book? You know, when you have them 902 00:42:03,601 --> 00:42:05,721 come out that close together? So it's been very 903 00:42:06,041 --> 00:42:10,021 exciting, but it's been tricky, you know? Know. So 904 00:42:10,581 --> 00:42:13,261 anyway, I'm not complaining. It's just. Yeah, it's 905 00:42:13,261 --> 00:42:15,101 just been. It's just, you know, these are the 906 00:42:15,101 --> 00:42:17,541 things that you have to learn how to juggle. And 907 00:42:18,021 --> 00:42:20,541 so writing is not just sitting at your computer in 908 00:42:20,541 --> 00:42:22,821 your house by yourself. You got to do all this 909 00:42:22,821 --> 00:42:24,941 other stuff. And. Yeah, hopefully you get on tv 910 00:42:24,941 --> 00:42:26,861 and hopefully you get on podcasts, and hopefully 911 00:42:26,861 --> 00:42:28,461 people think you're interesting enough that they 912 00:42:28,461 --> 00:42:30,341 have you back when you have another book come out 913 00:42:30,341 --> 00:42:34,061 and, and you make contacts and don't give up, and 914 00:42:34,061 --> 00:42:36,341 you make jokes and you entertain and you tell a 915 00:42:36,341 --> 00:42:38,721 good story and that's. That's what you do. 916 00:42:38,801 --> 00:42:39,721 Jeniffer: Yeah. Yeah. 917 00:42:39,721 --> 00:42:43,641 Caitlin Rother: Do you sell books at your trio gigs? No, I do not. 918 00:42:43,641 --> 00:42:47,281 I don't. We don't play that often. And I, you 919 00:42:47,281 --> 00:42:49,361 know, I've thought about it, but I'm like, I don't 920 00:42:49,361 --> 00:42:51,801 know, it seems like. It seems like they're 921 00:42:51,801 --> 00:42:54,121 interested in hearing about it, but they're not 922 00:42:54,121 --> 00:42:54,801 there for that. 923 00:42:54,881 --> 00:42:55,281 Jeniffer: Sure. 924 00:42:55,281 --> 00:42:56,321 Caitlin Rother: And vice versa. 925 00:42:56,481 --> 00:42:57,481 Jeniffer: Yeah. Yeah. 926 00:42:57,481 --> 00:42:59,801 Caitlin Rother: Like I had a friend who's like, oh, you and Gaza 927 00:42:59,801 --> 00:43:02,321 is my partner. I play with as well. You guys 928 00:43:02,321 --> 00:43:04,721 should sing at your book signing at Barnes and 929 00:43:04,721 --> 00:43:09,011 Noble. I'm like, know. I don't think so. 930 00:43:10,771 --> 00:43:12,851 Jeniffer: Well, I don't know. I think that'd be kind of 931 00:43:12,851 --> 00:43:14,531 cool. I saw you sing in Nashville. 932 00:43:15,171 --> 00:43:16,051 Caitlin Rother: Yeah, well. 933 00:43:16,051 --> 00:43:16,851 Jeniffer: Which was awesome. 934 00:43:17,011 --> 00:43:20,171 Caitlin Rother: Oh, thank you. That was. That was fun. I mean, and 935 00:43:20,171 --> 00:43:22,651 I needed to do that, you know, I. And it was good 936 00:43:22,651 --> 00:43:23,651 for me. It was fun. 937 00:43:23,731 --> 00:43:26,331 Jeniffer: That was the killer, killer Nashville Writers 938 00:43:26,331 --> 00:43:28,811 Conference for our listeners. Well, Caitlin 939 00:43:28,811 --> 00:43:31,651 Rother, thank you so much for joining us here on 940 00:43:31,651 --> 00:43:33,031 the Premise today. We really appreciate. 941 00:43:33,821 --> 00:43:35,941 Caitlin Rother: Well, I really appreciate you having me on. It was 942 00:43:35,941 --> 00:43:36,221 fun. 943 00:43:36,381 --> 00:43:39,101 Jeniffer: Yeah. And I'm excited to read book. Well, I guess 944 00:43:39,101 --> 00:43:41,301 it's really book three, but we'll call it book two 945 00:43:41,301 --> 00:43:41,821 in the series. 946 00:43:42,621 --> 00:43:46,861 Caitlin Rother: Well, yeah, it's, book two. Got it. But yeah, I'm 947 00:43:46,861 --> 00:43:49,021 calling Naked Addiction the prequel. Got it. 948 00:43:49,101 --> 00:43:49,781 Jeniffer: Okay. Okay. 949 00:43:49,781 --> 00:43:50,621 Caitlin Rother: Okay. Yeah. 950 00:43:50,941 --> 00:43:54,085 Jeniffer: Well, folks, you can learn more about Caitlyn@ 951 00:43:54,330 --> 00:43:59,061 CaitlinRother.com subscribe to her substack Aur 952 00:43:59,061 --> 00:44:01,101 and be sure to follow her on BookBub, where you 953 00:44:01,101 --> 00:44:03,501 can find ebook discounts and other goodies. Follow 954 00:44:03,501 --> 00:44:05,851 her on Facebook, Facebook, Caitlin Rother, and 955 00:44:06,011 --> 00:44:10,371 Instagram at the real caitlinrother, all separated 956 00:44:10,371 --> 00:44:11,451 by underscores. 957 00:44:11,691 --> 00:44:14,771 This has been another episode of the Premise. You 958 00:44:14,771 --> 00:44:18,011 can visit us online@thepremisepod.com and 959 00:44:18,011 --> 00:44:20,691 subscribe and rate or review the Premise wherever 960 00:44:20,691 --> 00:44:23,371 you get your podcasts. These reviews really help 961 00:44:23,371 --> 00:44:26,091 us get the word out about authors like Caitlin, 962 00:44:26,091 --> 00:44:29,011 and they help increase our subscriber base. Also, 963 00:44:29,011 --> 00:44:31,991 folks, be sure to mark your calendar. The seventh 964 00:44:31,991 --> 00:44:34,831 annual San Diego Writers Festival is happening on 965 00:44:34,831 --> 00:44:38,191 March 28 at the Coronado Public Library, and this 966 00:44:38,191 --> 00:44:42,111 year's keynote is Jodi Picolt. So that's going to 967 00:44:42,111 --> 00:44:45,551 be a fantastic day. Then again, that is on March 968 00:44:45,551 --> 00:44:48,711 28th. You can follow me, your host, on Instagram 969 00:44:48,711 --> 00:44:52,431 Enfergrace or follow me on Facebook Enfer Thompson 970 00:44:52,431 --> 00:44:55,431 Consulting. Until next time, thanks for listening. 971 00:44:55,431 --> 00:44:56,951 Goodbye, M. Goodbye.