Jeniffer: Hello, welcome back. I'm Jennifer Thompson. And
I'm Chad Thompson. And this is season seven of the
Premise of the Premise, where we get to the story
behind the storyteller. We've got some amazing
authors lined up for you this season. And guess
what? The San Diego Writers Festival is coming up
in just a couple months, folks. It's March 28th at
the Coronado Public Library. It's free to
everyone, and this year's keynote is Jodi Picolt.
So make sure and mark your calendars. We'll see
you there. And for the premise, we've just got an
amazing lineup of people who are gonna talk about
storytelling and writing and publishing and just,
you know, and cars and cars and pasta. So stay
tuned and be sure to subscribe wherever you get
your podcasts.
Caitlin Rother: Italian Cars, Italian Pasta.
Jeniffer: New York Times best selling author Ken Caitlin
Rother has written or Co authored 16 books, the
latest of which is Hooked, which I have just read
and we're going to talk about today. This is the
first in Rother's new Katrina and Good thriller
series. Her other recent titles are down to the
bone, about the McStay family murders, the updated
edition of Body Parts about serial killer Wayne
Adam Ford, and Death on Ocean Boulevard, about the
mysterious death of Rebecca Zaha. Rother, who
worked as an investigative newspaper reporter for
19 years before quitting the news biz to write
books full time, has appeared more than 250 times
on TV, radio shows and podcasts. She also works as
a book coach, enjoys ocean swimming and plays
keyboards and sings in a jazzy, bluesy trio.
Caitlin, welcome to the premise.
Caitlin Rother: Thanks so much for having me.
Jeniffer: Yeah, I'm really excited to dive into this book
Hooked. there are so many topics. I don't imagine
we'll get to all of them, but let's start with
this.
Tell us about Hooked. What is this book about?
Caitlin Rother: Well, I have so many different sub themes that I
can talk about. it's really difficult for me to
boil it down, but I know you're supposed to have
an elevator pitch, but you know, basically the.
It's the first book in the series. so it launches
with hooked on February 1st. And it's basically a
book about ethics, corruption, suicide, murder,
addiction, and the way that materialism is not
everything. It seems wealthy people behaving
badly. And one thing that I really think is
important is I kind of wrote it to be historical
fiction. And given what we're going through today
with all of these accusations about fake news and
reporters being attacked constantly, and also
journalism really taking a dive in terms of
quality. Just a lot of it has to do with how the
industry has shrunk so much. layoffs, mergers,
buyouts. so many people have left the business
that it's just a tiny version of itself. So I
wanted to pay an. An homage to the way it used to
be. So the book is set in 2015, when reporters
were trusted to tell the truth, and you wanted
them to tell the truth, and people were actually
able to accept the truth for truth. And journalism
was not about misinformation and disinformation
and partisan ideology and law enforcement. We
expected them to protect us, and we called them,
knowing they would come and hopefully do the right
thing and follow the law, as opposed to some of
what we're seeing on the streets today, where
people fear them. So I just felt like this was a
good time to go back and celebrate. It wasn't that
long ago. It was only 10 years ago, but, so much
has changed. And so these are good characters. Ken
Good, the surfing homicide detective, and Katrina
Chopin, who is the investigative reporter. Katrina
lives her life by ethics and integrity. And so
when she meets Ken Goode at Piarti, which is my
favorite Italian restaurant in La Jolla, at the
bar, you know, she. They immediately hit it off.
But he gets called out. You know, a couple dead
bodies. He's got to go. And she goes, oh, you're a
homicide detective? And he says, yeah. And then he
doesn't know she's a reporter until he sees her
the next morning at the news conference. And he
says, you're a reporter because, you know,
detectives and reporters can't date each other
when they're, you know, working on the same case.
It's an eth. Big line that you're not allowed to
cross. So that's a huge theme in the whole series
about how they can't be together. But there's this
sexual tension and professional competition. So
it's, you know, you always say that you can't have
a story without conflict. Well, this has conflict
on so many levels that hopefully that keeps the
suspense level high.
Jeniffer: 100%. Yeah. I loved the, you know, as you say, the
underlying sexual tension. So really, we've got
romance and we've got the typical thriller. And I
gotta go back to your comment, though, because I
went to journalism school myself, and I can just
remember being 19 years old and seeing Diane
Sawyer doing undercover reporting. And I was so
moved and so inspired. That's what I wanted to do
with my life. You know, I wanted to do something
good in the world. And m, to me, the only way to
do that was really through journalism. And reading
your book just brought me back to that feeling. It
stirred within me, that feeling of like, I want to
do good in the world.
Caitlin Rother: Yeah.
Jeniffer: And it's scary. It's scary to see what's happening
in journalism and that people don't believe what
they see. you know, Chad calls it a post truth
society, and that's. That's scary stuff.
Caitlin Rother: Well, and I went into journalism, you know, with
these ideals about right and wrong. And, you know,
I've always had that. Apparently. My mom told me
that I've always been like that since my
personality was formed, I guess, when I was a
child. And it just stayed that way. So I've always
been a rule follower and, you know, so I just
wanted to expose wrongdoing and I wanted to expose
negligence and incompetence. So I covered a lot of
government. So people always think because I was a
true crime author, that I was a police reporter
and I really wasn't. I covered government, the
city hall and politics. And I covered, a lot of
political races. So I was an investigative
reporter, but my area generally was in politics.
And then they also had me do high profile, quick
front page profiles on newsmakers. And those were
always, like super complicated stories where I had
to cram in all this research, and then get it done
in, you know, three days time. And. Yeah, so. And,
and make people upset. A lot of people would get
upset and scared when I would call, so.
Jeniffer: I bet. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's a
fantastic book and.
Caitlin Rother: Well, thank you.
Jeniffer: Yeah, well, thank. And I gotta say, you know,
Katrina, she's so meticulous. And the tension also
of her, you know, just this crazy day running
around making these phone calls, trying to find as
much information and as many facts as she can so
she can tell the story well. And then, oh, by the
way, you've got three hours to write it. We have a
deadline today.
Caitlin Rother: You know, always, always. That was my life, which
is stressful.
Jeniffer: But I guess it's, you know, a form of, you know,
adrenaline. That's pretty exciting too.
Caitlin Rother: well, and not all reporters are capable of that.
Not all reporters are investigative reporters. So
when you, when you say investigative reporter, and
I was interviewed by another podcaster who was
mentioning an author who was a TV reporter and
talking about being an investigative reporter. But
the scene that he was relaying was basically on
the spot, breaking news at a crime scene, not the
same thing. So Investigative reporter means you
love paper, you love documents, you love going
through the court files, you love when somebody
hands you a stack of manila folders with a bunch
of old dusty papers in it and you go, oh, that's
exciting. And you find all kinds of great nuggets
and you weave them all the way into your stories.
And you know, it's, it's exciting and you want to
share it with people. And that's why I loved what
I did. And that's why I loved being an author even
more, because I had way more room and space to put
all those little facts right.
Jeniffer: Well, I was just going to ask you, when did you
decide you were going to write like full length
novels? True crime? Not novels. True crime,
nonfiction.
Caitlin Rother: Like, thank you for making that distinction
because a lot of people don't seem to understand
that there's no such thing as a true crime novel.
Yeah, there's no. Often say that makes me crazy.
So when I was, I have been writing fiction for a
lot of my life. when I was just, starting out as a
cub reporter, I was back in Massachusetts. And
just like Katrina, she worked in Northampton,
Massachusetts. Gee, guess what? So did I,
Jeniffer: Write what you know. Write what you know.
Caitlin Rother: Yeah, yeah. Well, I thought, you know, what the
heck, right? So I was, hired as a part time
reporter at the Springfield Union News. because
they had this whole exploitative system where you
had full time reporters and you had a whole bunch
of part timers who worked full time gigs but
didn't get health benefits. So that was really a
lot of fun. So I would work a full time schedule
and I would write these long investigative stories
and that's eventually how I got hired. But,
basically I wouldn't start work. My shift didn't
start till 3 o' clock because those were the days
when we would cover a lot of meetings. Because in
Massachusetts we would cover towns or cities. And
so they're like their own little government. They
don't have really a county government there. They
have state government and they have local
government. And so I would cover, you know, a city
and cover everything in it. Right. And so, it was
just, I had all this time on my hands, so I would
go get my coffee in the morning and I would start,
you know, I would write stories, short stories,
and I was trying to get published short stories
first. And then eventually once I got hired full
time, I still wanted to keep it up. So I started
doing writing workshops and I would produce these
little germs. So they did trigger exercise and
we'd all write for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, and
then if you wanted to, you would read it aloud.
Well, I did that for a year and I produced a bunch
of these little germs that I then put into my
first novel, which is actually the prequel to this
series. It's called Naked Addiction. And it, and
it features the same detective, Ken Good, but not
Katrina Chopin, because she's part of the new
series. So there's, you know, a lot of backstory
stuff, but that's basically how I started, was
writing this novel and I just couldn't get it
published. So 17 years I was going to writing
conferences, I was meeting editors, I was looking
for agents. I just couldn't get published. Because
your first book and trying to get a novel
published, that's pretty hard. So I thought, well,
okay, I'm a newspaper reporter, I'm a professional
writer. Why don't I try nonfiction? And so, yeah.
So, there was a court case, the Kristin Rossum
case. I don't know if you remember that one here
in San Diego. The beautiful toxicologist who
worked at the medical examiner's office who stole,
fentanyl from the lab. And this was. Fentanyl was
not available like it is now. It was basically
very controlled. You'd get it at a hospital, you
could get it at the ME's toxicology lab, but you
couldn't get it on the street. So she basically
poisoned her husband with these, fentanyl patches
or a little vial of fentanyl citrate, which is
like enough in a sweet and low packet would kill
10 people. That's how strong it is. So she somehow
poisoned him. And then she told this whole story
about how he had sedated himself because he was
depressed she was leaving him. And then he
sprinkled red rose petals over himself, you know,
in this dramatic gesture. So anyway, turns out she
was convicted and they found all this fentanyl in
his system. And, that was my first court case that
I covered from beginning to end. And then that was
my first book is called Poisoned Love, based on
that. And I was like, it took off and it was huge.
And so it's my best selling book to date, as a
matter of fact still. So that's how I got started,
was in true crime because I couldn't get my novel
published. And once I did get it published, 17
years it took to get it published. I just didn't
really know what I was doing. So it basically I
needed to do all the research that I did when I
wrote 12 true crime books of interviewing
detectives and reading investigative reports and
following a case from the beginning to the end and
going to the trials and interviewing people and
reading the detectives witness interviews and
listening to audio of them interviewing. So I know
how the detectives think, I know how they talk. I
know about their interaction, you know, with these
witnesses and in what order they do these
investigations, what the protocols are. And now I
know all that stuff. And so now it comes naturally
to my characters. It didn't before. So I feel like
my dream was to write crime fiction, not to write
true crime. It's just that the way it played out
was just the realities of the business and I just
didn't know. I, didn't know. I didn't know what I
didn't know, you know. And so now I know it.
Jeniffer: I love that you share this story that you're
telling us in your author's note and your
acknowledgments of the book. Because it's so
interesting, you know, you read a book and you
think, wow, it's so perfect. It came together that
way, right? Oh, hell no. Oh, hell no. And you
mentioned Michael Connelly had, a tip for you when
you first wrote this book and you were getting
rejections, right?
Caitlin Rother: So people say, oh, you know Michael Connelly?
Well, no, it's not like we're best friends or
anything, but he, My boyfriend when I worked at
the LA Times was his former editor.
Jeniffer: Oh, nice.
Caitlin Rother: So they were friends. And so like, you know, we
all went to a YouTube concert together. You know,
they stayed friends. And so years later, you know,
I'm right trying to write this. I'm trying to get
Naked Addiction published. I still can't get it
published, so I'm getting Poison Love published.
And I sent him an email and I said, hey, would you
be willing to do a blurb for me on this book,
Poison Love? He goes, don't you have a novel
you're working on? I go, yeah, but I don't have a
contract or anything. He goes, well, why don't I
read that? Maybe it'll help. Maybe it'll help you
get published. And I was like, okay, I guess. He
goes, I only do one blurb per author, per
lifetime. So it was a risk because if he didn't
like it, then I would have wasted my one chance at
a Michael Connelly blurb. So anyway, he read the
manuscript and as I said in the acknowledgments, I
was perfectly honest. He said, look, the one thing
you do really well is character. And that's not
something you can learn. That's just natural to
you. Or you either know how to do that or you
don't. But what you don't seem, you know, what you
don't really know how to do as well is police
procedure. And because that's what I'm known for,
I can't really give you a blurb with the title of
the book in it, because people would expect you to
meet a certain standard. And to be honest, your
procedural stuff is kind of amateurish. And I was
like, okay. And he goes, and by the way, I knew
too early it was too obvious who the killer was.
So, anyway, I basically revamped my story and
layered in some stuff and made somebody else the
killer based on his critique, which was so nice of
him to do. And he said, oh, I'm so relieved that
you're open to this. Like, he was worried that I
was going to be upset. I'm like, oh, my God.
Critique from Michael Connelly. God, please bring
it on.
Jeniffer: Amazing.
Caitlin Rother: So, yeah, so then I was able to sell the book, but
then I couldn't sell the sequel, which was hooked
in its original form. And I went through three
ages before I finally found one who was willing to
even send it out again. I had to rewrite it
multiple times. I started it over in a fresh file,
in fact, because my. One of my editors, one of my
agents was like, well, there's too much telling
and not enough showing. And I know you have the
chops to do this, so just open a new file and
start over. I'm like, okay, great.
Jeniffer: I can't imagine.
Caitlin Rother: So, anyway, 17 years later, here's Hooked.
Jeniffer: Worth the wait.
I mean, well, and you say, like, learning how to
tell, think, and talk was so integral. At what
point did you know you needed to add in another
protagonist, a female?
Caitlin Rother: I always had another one. And I think the funny
thing is that I don't think that the agents who
read it early on, they were ready for that,
because detective novels were just one detective
period. Right. You didn't have to. But then I
think on tv, you know, they started having, like,
that stupid show, I'm Sorry, Castle, which I just
think is kind of lame, because the reporter's lame
and the detective seems kind of lame, but that's
kind of one of those couples where. Where you have
a reporter, and it's so unbelievable. It just is
silly to me.
Jeniffer: So I'm just watching it then. Yeah. Yeah. We won't
even go there. Yeah.
Caitlin Rother: I mean, I just happened to see it on tv. But I'm
just using that as an example because it's a
reporter and a police detective. So, But the idea
of that I had from the very beginning, I thought
to myself, well, okay, I think Patricia Cornwell
had a problem early on as well that she needed to
do a female character. And I thought that's what I
wanted to do too. But I really wanted to keep Ken
good. So I wanted to have them both be primary.
I'm going to have them have the book really be
based on the chemistry and the conflict between
them. And that would be what the book, the dynamic
of the book. So it would be the premise and the
dynamic, and then, you know, make the plot, weave
the plot, make that about a whole bunch of other
things. And that's what I did. And I honestly
think that the. The first. The agents that I had
who passed on this were men. I really feel like
women, seem much more excited about this book. I
mean, men like it too, but I have found that the
women seem to really like it and are more willing
to take a chance. And then everybody seems to like
it now. But I'm just saying, early on, they just
didn't seem like, oh, the two protagonists thing.
Oh, no, I don't really know about that. You know,
it's like, come on.
Jeniffer: Yeah.
Caitlin Rother: So I think it was just. Maybe it was before it's
time and now it's.
Jeniffer: I don't know that's entirely possible.
Caitlin Rother: I mean, I love their.
Jeniffer: Dang. Their dynamic. Like the sexual tension and
the chemistry is so alive. And that's another
thing you mentioned in your author note, which I
hate to give it away because the author's note and
the acknowledgments is sort of like dessert to me.
Like, that's the last thing.
Caitlin Rother: And they're at the end of the book for a reason.
Exactly. So no spoilers.
Jeniffer: No spoilers. But, you know, there are people gave
you critiques that you fixed. I mean, you
absolutely nailed it. And this book is.
Caitlin Rother: Thank you.
Jeniffer: Is alive.
I want to talk about the details in your writing,
which I'm sure are directly related to you as an
investigative reporter. You know, it's clear that
you are a meticulous investigative reporter, which
is why you've been so successful. And, you know,
it's just makes our female protagonist just come
alive. Like she's almost solving the case for Ken.
Caitlin Rother: Right.
Jeniffer: But of course, there's back and forth they're
helping each other through, you know, throughout
the book. But she must have been so much fun to
write. And so I just gotta ask you now, did she
come easy or did she evolve over time?
Caitlin Rother: She evolved over time. And Ken Good has evolved
over time too. So remember way back when, when I
wrote Naked Addiction? Honestly, it took 17 years
to get that book published. And it's taken 17
years now to get this book published. So when I
first started writing Ken Good, I was in my 30s.
The characters are in their 30s now. I think I
was. I'm still the same person, but I don't
approach sex in my mind the same way. I don't
about sex the same way. So that was a little bit
of a challenge, to be honest, that I had to put
myself back into the mindset of somebody who was
35 years old. Right. And he's 37. But, so. And
then the other issue was when I first wrote her,
my. My agent who originally told me to, you know,
open a clean file, who didn't really get the
premise, didn't appreciate the premise. I told him
about this sex drug that I made up, which
basically is supposed to make you feel that
infatuation and that attraction that you feel
really, really early on. And it's supposed to just
perpetuate that for as long as you're taking the
drug. So that if you're in a long term
relationship, it's supposed to reinvigorate that
feeling, that, that sexual attraction and that
infatuation. And it's all dopamine, right? So it's
all about dopamine and that burst and that reward
and all of that. He just was like, oh, that sounds
exhausting. And I'm like, oh my God, he's totally
missing the point.
Jeniffer: Totally.
Caitlin Rother: Yeah. Ah, you know, so I mean, I didn't have a
cheerleader to start with. And he said, and by the
way, this isn't. You don't try to make her. You,
make her somebody else. And so I actually
originally had her be a lot more sexual. But I
also figured that just the way society is and
women are so judgmental of other women that I
wanted readers to accept her. So I kind of played
that down. So I want her to be sexual because this
is a book about a, you know, sex drug. Honestly,
that's one of the themes, right? And the
corruption is. Well, the company that is
developing this sex drug, somebody involved in the
company wants to get the FDA to, expedite the
approval, which they don't do unless it's an
emergency COVID vaccine or something. Right? This
is a sex drug, is not an Emergency. So anyway, I.
Jeniffer: That's how you say.
Caitlin Rother: I had to play with her a little bit. And then. And
then Ken Good was much more, I think, kind of. He
seemed like, to me, the way I remember, he was
kind of more frustrated and distrusting and, a
little more angry in Naked Addiction, because it's
about, you know, it opens with him on the Coronado
Bridge, remembering when his mother drove him
there when he was six years old and got out of the
car, put her high heels on the driver's seat, gave
him a melancholy smile, went behind the car and
climbed over the railing and jumped off. So
suicide is part of. Is one of the sub threads in
this series. and it's not in every book, but there
are. There are. That's a theme. And addiction is
as well. and mental illness and all that sort of
fun stuff, which are also themes that I am drawn
to in my nonfiction.
Jeniffer: Yeah.
Caitlin Rother: So anyway, I made her. I kind of shaped them both
based on who I am now, but trying to remember who
I used to be and trying to give her some of my
stories and give them both parts of me, but I had
to. That was a little bit of a challenge since so
much time has passed to try to write younger
characters. But I went through a lot of stuff when
I was young with the dating world and all that
nonsense. So, that's still pretty burned into my
brain.
Jeniffer: I mean, you. You have experience with suicide in
your personal life?
Caitlin Rother: Yes, I do. My. My late husband killed himself. So,
Yeah, I know a lot about it. So. And how it sort
of, kind of sticks with me. And I wrote about it
before he killed himself too. So, I mean, it's
kind of always been there.
Jeniffer: Interesting.
Caitlin Rother: I don't know why, but it's just one of those
things.
Jeniffer: Well, you are a crime writer and.
Caitlin Rother: But I think there's a reason why I became a crime
writer. Right. I mean, you know.
Jeniffer: So when you were a little girl, did you watch the
news or were you interested?
Caitlin Rother: No, not at all.
Jeniffer: Okay.
Caitlin Rother: My, My parents had the LA Times in the house, and
I read the comics, and that was pretty much m.
Maybe the horoscope. I don't know.
Jeniffer: Where did you grow up?
Caitlin Rother: well, I went to, We moved to San Diego when I was,
in the first grade. We went to three. I went to
three different elementary schools in San Diego,
and then we moved to La Jolla when I was in the
summer before seventh grade. So I went to junior
high and high school in La Jolla, went to UCSD for
a couple quarters, transferred to Berkeley, and
then I moved, did my master's at Medill outside of
Chicago, and then I moved to the east coast to
work. And then I made my way back to San Diego and
here you are. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. I came back to
Ventura county and LA and then San Diego. So I've
been all over. And so, so, you know, a lot of
experience in the news business and a lot of
living in different places.
Jeniffer: And in a lot of ways, I think one of the things I
enjoyed most about reading this book was just this
beautiful romp through San Diego and La Jolla in
particular.
Caitlin Rother: Oh, good, thanks.
Jeniffer: And it was so much fun to know exactly where we
are in town, you know, where the scene is, like
right down to the street. But what really
impressed me with how you, you give. You, you did
this really well. Anyone not familiar with San
Diego, you gave them history and details that
bring our city to life without it seeming odd. And
you don't usually see that in fiction. You see it
in reporting for sure. But you managed to marry
those two in a really seamless way that, I really
enjoyed. And I'm sure anyone who doesn't live here
with love as well. No. Did you realize you were
doing that?
Caitlin Rother: Oh, of course, yes.
Jeniffer: Yes, of course you did.
Caitlin Rother: Of course. I mean, I really think it's important
to ground the reader so you know what you're
looking at, you know where you are, you know what
you see, you know what you smell and hear and
feel. And, Wind and Sea, where Ken Good is kind of
his second home. He's like a homing pigeon. he'll
leave and he'll come back to Wind and Sea and just
look at the water and connect with the water and
go put his foot in the water. And he's a surfer,
so he loves the ocean. And that's something that
I've always had in me. So I gave it to my
character. And Wind and Sea basically has served
that same purpose for me. I'm just not a surfer.
I'm a swimmer.
Caitlin Rother: I don't swim down there because the waves are
really rough and they're for surfing. So I swam a
lot of years at La Jolla Cove until I got too
smelly with the sea lions. And so now I swim at La
Jolla shore. So.
Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, it is smelly down there
too, which is such a shame.
Caitlin Rother: Yes.
Jeniffer: So one thing I'd like to point out, that you don't
actually use the word fuck. In this novel, they
don't really swear and it was right. And you don't
even really realize it's happening. So tell us
about this decision to not use that word in the
book.
Caitlin Rother: So in my, true crime books, most of my, books are
published by Kensington, which is now putting out
books through their imprint, Citadel. my editor
basically said to me, if, you know, don't use that
word because we're not going to be able to get
your books into Walmart. They have some sort of, I
don't know, some software or something maybe that
searches your book and they don't want that for
their people, like, okay, whatever. So I started
using asterisks, even for shift, you know, and so,
and the copy editor would put the word in and I'd
be like, well, you know, my editor doesn't want
that in there. And she's like, really? Why? And
so, because this is how they talk. This is how
reporters and this is how, detectives talk. They,
they use that word a lot. You know, they, they use
the word fuck a lot. So. And honestly, I do too. I
don't do it in front of people, probably because I
don't want to be seen as a foul mouth, you know,
sailor, but whatever. But I wanted it to be real,
so I used the word effing. so they're so cussing.
It's just not going to offend anybody because I've
seen other authors posting their reviews and there
are people out there who get really, really
offended and will refuse to buy the book. They'll
give you a bad review. They'll give you like a one
or two star review because you're using
expletives. And I thought, you know, why make an
issue when there doesn't need to be? I mean, I'll
just use effing or frickin. And so I'm still using
the word, but it's in a way that won't offend
people. And that was my, my, that was my thought
on that.
Jeniffer: And it works.
Caitlin Rother: I'm glad, I'm glad because I mean I, I did make a
decision on that. I, every once in a while I think
I might use it. If it's, if it's really necessary,
I'll use it because it's a strong word and it does
need to be used sometimes. And when you're
exclaiming something and you're really mad or
you're pissed off or you hurt yourself, I mean,
I'm going to use that word. I'm not going to Say
effing. You know, I don't say effing unless I'm
trying not to offend somebody. Sure, I tried. Or I
don't use it at all. You know, sometimes what I'll
do is I'll actually take the word out of the
sentence entirely and see how it reads. And if I
don't need it, I'll take it out entirely and not
even use effing. Because the more you use
expletives, even if you're not using the real
word. I just think it's lazy, you know?
Jeniffer: Well, sure.
Caitlin Rother: Like, comedy can be lazy when people cuss too
much, I think.
Jeniffer: Totally. I totally agree with that. I remember one
of the first times I swore in front of a really
good friend of mine. We'd been hanging out for
years, and one day we were sitting in a bar having
a drink, and she said, oh, my God, I've never
heard you come us. And I said, well, that's
because Penelope's always with us. And, you know,
Penelope was a child. She was like, oh, there's a
time and a place. But those words do. I'm, fond of
them, you know.
Caitlin Rother: In the right moment. In the right moment. In the
right moment. And with. With someone that you feel
safe with. That's very true.
Jeniffer: That's very true.
Caitlin, do you write every day?
Caitlin Rother: I go through phases, and, the. My main frustration
is my body. My body does not want me to write
every day and does not want me to write as much as
I want to write. So, I. You know, I worked for 20
years as a reporter, and I typed a huge amount. So
I put a lot of strain on my body with adrenaline
and deadlines and typing. I used to type my
interviews, which was extra typing on top of
writing my story. I would type all my interviews,
and I typed very fast. Wow. So I would write as
fast as people were talking. Like, I was. Was a
transcriber, which was dumb. So I basically
overused my body over time, and I have very small
bones, and I don't have a lot of muscle tissue.
And so I end up using my tendons too much, and I
have developed problems in my neck. And over time,
I've had periods where I've had to write an entire
book using voice activated software because I
have, just overtaxed my body too much. It just
gives out. So I can't write every day, and I can't
write as many hours a day as I have in me. So I
have to pace myself. Nonetheless, I have I am
like, up to what, almost 60,000 words on a book
that I started on December 13th. So I think that's
kind of a lot. I have weird standards, you know,
of what is not enough a lot. Do you know what I
mean? And that's. I've always been a workaholic. I
just love to work. And you say, oh, 16 books. When
do you have the time? Well, because that's all I
do is work. I don't have a big social life. I
don't have a giant friend crowd. I don't drink
really much anymore because of various health
issues. So I don't go out that much. Anyway, I
work because I enjoy working and I enjoy putting
out books and I enjoy, positive feedback from
people who enjoy my books. And so. That's pretty.
And I play music, when I can, and that's what I
do.
Jeniffer: Yeah, I enjoy working.
Caitlin Rother: I enjoy working. It's fun and it helps me escape
all the nonsense out there. There's so much
garbage happening right now that is so upsetting.
If you let it bother you, I just start writing the
story and I forget about it. Indeed. That's the
fun part.
Jeniffer: Absolutely.
And you're a writing coach as well?
Caitlin Rother: Yeah, not as much anymore. I don't. You know,
people don't seem to really know that I'm a coach
these days, so I don't do that as much. but. But
when I was teaching, I used to teach at UCSD
Extension and San Diego Writers Inc. And my
students would work with me after the class was
over and I would get a lot of coaching clients
that way. But, I mean, I still do it. If anybody
wants to do a session, I'm happy to do that on the
phone. so I don't do that much of it because I'm
also writing all the time these days.
Jeniffer: Sure. Well.
Caitlin Rother: But yeah, I mean, if somebody wants a coaching
session, I still do do it.
Jeniffer: Well, they can find you on your website, which is.
Caitlin Rother: That's right.
Jeniffer: Caitlinrother.com. so if someone did hire you,
what kind of. Is there a specific genre, that you
enjoy working on with clients?
Caitlin Rother: Well, I, I really think I'm the best at doing
front end developmental editing. So I prefer to
talk through ideas with people and research. You
know, research has always been really big for me
because research, when you're doing nonfiction and
true crime is just as important as the writing.
Honestly, it's a separate skill. and people don't
know where to find information. And I've been
trained in that and trained myself to do that for
so many years that, you know, when I started out
as a reporter, it just didn't occur to me that I
could go to this place or that place to find this
information or that information. I just didn't
know. Well, you don't know until you learn, until
you know where the things are. Right. So I help
people with, how to research, where to research,
what to research. I try to steer people, you know,
towards, you know, is this idea marketable or not?
And if it isn't, how, what is it missing? so I,
that's what I like to do the most. There are
people who say, oh, can I send you, I wrote a book
and I put it online and I'm like, well, why didn't
you come to me before you put it online? You know,
because then you read it and you're like, ay, ay,
yai. And then I worked with one woman and she
basically realized she had to take it down and
rewrite the whole thing because she didn't really
know what she was doing. So people who put up
books and they don't, you know, they're trying to
put. Do a true crime book, but they don't know how
to write narrative, they don't know how to write a
scene. They don't know what a scene is, and they
don't know how to make research into a scene. They
don't know any of that. It doesn't even occur to
them because they've never learned a critical
analysis of what makes a good book, you know, So I
have to, That's basically what I start with. I
say, hey, do you know how to write a scene? Let me
teach you how to write a scene. Here are the
elements. And so that's basically what I do.
Jeniffer: Nice.
Caitlin Rother: I mean, it depends on what they want too.
Sometimes people just want to talk and talk
through some ideas. I'm happy to do that too. And
I'm happy to read and critique, you know, a
chapter or whatever. If, if, then I can tell them
what they're doing right and what they're not
doing right and help them steer them on how to
improve. Like this part here is what you want to
do all the way through. You're just doing it in
one paragraph. So do. Do that all the time. Stuff
like that. More of that.
Yeah.
Jeniffer: I know that you are already working on the next
books in the series. Can you tell us where you're
at and when we can expect to get the next book?
Caitlin Rother: Yeah, the next book is called 17 Years. No,
actually I'm much faster now. Like I said, I just
wrote like 60,000 words in a month and a half. So
I'm doing much, much better. So staged is the next
book in the series and it is coming out in June,
so it is available for pre order already.
Jeniffer: Oh my gosh.
Caitlin Rother: I've already written books three and four as well.
So they are under submission with my editor.
Jeniffer: Awesome.
Caitlin Rother: And I hope to be. I hope to get some good news on
at least book three. And then we're not sure
whether she says that debut authors, often they
like to end their series with three books. And no
one told me that. And I wrote book four. So
whether or not she decides she wants to publish
it, I'm going to publish it no matter what because
I really. It's where I feel the story should go.
Jeniffer: Got it.
Caitlin Rother: That's with the story arc. And so the one I'm
writing now was because until she decides whether
she's gonna buy three and four, I needed something
else to do. I already wrote those two books and
I'm m not gonna sit on my thumb. So I started a
new character and a new, plot. And I don't know if
this is gonna be a recurring character or if this
is going to be a standalone, but it, is going to
be a female sheriff's detective this time because
we really don't have the way. If you look at the
crime fiction world, there are authors who have
kind of an area just like in true crime. We're
kind of geographically oriented. So there really
aren't that many crime writers in San Diego. And
there, you know, some. So I said, hey, we don't
have, a sheriff's detective character, female
character. Nobody's writing that in San Diego. So
that seems like a good idea in terms of the
market. And also to do something different from
the existing series. I want to do something
different, start a different series or start a,
you know, just do a separate book. And so that's
what I came up with. And I had an idea, that came
to me when I was sitting at dinner in Coronado. So
I decided that it would be. My brand is kind of
Coronado and La Jolla. So it takes place in those
two cities. And so that's where the characters are
from. And I don't want to say too much more, but,
I'm really enjoying writing this one and I'm, I
just. It's totally different. It's totally
different.
Jeniffer: I love it. Well, that's exciting. So we have a lot
to look forward to from you. So thank you.
Caitlin Rother: No, thank you.
Jeniffer: I have one more question before we close. A lot of
our listeners are writers. M. And you know, we'd
like to maybe end with some advice from you.
Caitlin Rother: Well, I, have a friend who just hit the USA best
selling author list with, with one of her recent
books. And she goes 32 years to be an overnight
success. And so that's kind of how I feel. Here I
am, book number 16. Took me 17 years to get it
published. Like I said, it was supposed to be part
of a series. And the first book took 17 years to
get published too. You know, you don't win if you
give up. You have to just keep going. And I think
people either don't have the talent and give up or
they don't stick with it long enough because this
is the exception are the people who do well right
away. I was really lucky with my very first book
that got published, Poison. Love that it sold so
well. I mean, it's over 100,000 copies. So I mean,
for a first book, that was pretty amazing. And
that was in the days when, print runs were. The
first print run was 40,000 books.
Jeniffer: Sure.
Caitlin Rother: I mean, today I think it's like 3,000 books
because it's just a different world. And so we
have audiobooks now. We have Kindle, which we
didn't really have, you know, back then. And if we
did, they would put the ebook out like two years
later, you know. So things have changed a lot. You
have to really be able to reinvent yourself and
you've got to really keep up with everything
because the marketing and promotions are
constantly changing. It takes so much of your
time. And if you aren't willing to do that part of
it, you aren't going to sell books. So that's one
of the toughest things. I remember when I would
teach writing workshops, I would get some of these
students who refused, like they didn't want to use
their real name and they didn't want to sell books
in a bookstore or hold any kind of public event
because they were. They just didn't want to do
that. They just didn't think they needed, needed
to do that. And I'm like, well, you're not gonna
sell any books. You think the book is just gonna
sell itself. You need to actually be out there and
network and talk to people. And I'm not that great
at that either, but I do get out there as much as
I can.
Jeniffer: So according to your bio, you've been on more than
250 podcasts, TV shows, and radio. I mean, that's
pretty, right?
Caitlin Rother: Oh, I know. I'm fine with doing that stuff, but
I'm the networking stuff with real people outside
of my house. I don't seem to have a lot of time
for that because I'm so busy working on something.
Jeniffer: Yeah, well, you're a writer. I mean, that's.
Caitlin Rother: I'm a writer. And so. And so, you know, I'm not as
comfortable. And Covid really did a number on me
in terms of my ability to, like, deal with other
people. It just took me a long time to kind of
reintegrate into society because, you know, all
that time alone, it's just. It does a number on
you. And then you're like, I don't remember how to
talk to this person. What do I say? You know?
Anyway, I'm doing much better. And I've been on a
never ending book tour for the past year. This is
my third book book. and then I'm gonna have staged
out in June, so I'm gonna have four books out in
like 15 months.
Jeniffer: Wow.
Caitlin Rother: Which is just. It's crazy though. I mean, I keep
track of. I went for four years with no books, and
then now I've got four books in 15 months. And.
And the other thing is, you know, how many times
are you gonna. Are people gonna come out for you
and buy your book? You know, when you have them
come out that close together? So it's been very
exciting, but it's been tricky, you know? Know. So
anyway, I'm not complaining. It's just. Yeah, it's
just been. It's just, you know, these are the
things that you have to learn how to juggle. And
so writing is not just sitting at your computer in
your house by yourself. You got to do all this
other stuff. And. Yeah, hopefully you get on tv
and hopefully you get on podcasts, and hopefully
people think you're interesting enough that they
have you back when you have another book come out
and, and you make contacts and don't give up, and
you make jokes and you entertain and you tell a
good story and that's. That's what you do.
Jeniffer: Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlin Rother: Do you sell books at your trio gigs? No, I do not.
I don't. We don't play that often. And I, you
know, I've thought about it, but I'm like, I don't
know, it seems like. It seems like they're
interested in hearing about it, but they're not
there for that.
Jeniffer: Sure.
Caitlin Rother: And vice versa.
Jeniffer: Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlin Rother: Like I had a friend who's like, oh, you and Gaza
is my partner. I play with as well. You guys
should sing at your book signing at Barnes and
Noble. I'm like, know. I don't think so.
Jeniffer: Well, I don't know. I think that'd be kind of
cool. I saw you sing in Nashville.
Caitlin Rother: Yeah, well.
Jeniffer: Which was awesome.
Caitlin Rother: Oh, thank you. That was. That was fun. I mean, and
I needed to do that, you know, I. And it was good
for me. It was fun.
Jeniffer: That was the killer, killer Nashville Writers
Conference for our listeners. Well, Caitlin
Rother, thank you so much for joining us here on
the Premise today. We really appreciate.
Caitlin Rother: Well, I really appreciate you having me on. It was
fun.
Jeniffer: Yeah. And I'm excited to read book. Well, I guess
it's really book three, but we'll call it book two
in the series.
Caitlin Rother: Well, yeah, it's, book two. Got it. But yeah, I'm
calling Naked Addiction the prequel. Got it.
Jeniffer: Okay. Okay.
Caitlin Rother: Okay. Yeah.
Jeniffer: Well, folks, you can learn more about Caitlyn@
CaitlinRother.com subscribe to her substack Aur
and be sure to follow her on BookBub, where you
can find ebook discounts and other goodies. Follow
her on Facebook, Facebook, Caitlin Rother, and
Instagram at the real caitlinrother, all separated
by underscores.
This has been another episode of the Premise. You
can visit us online@thepremisepod.com and
subscribe and rate or review the Premise wherever
you get your podcasts. These reviews really help
us get the word out about authors like Caitlin,
and they help increase our subscriber base. Also,
folks, be sure to mark your calendar. The seventh
annual San Diego Writers Festival is happening on
March 28 at the Coronado Public Library, and this
year's keynote is Jodi Picolt. So that's going to
be a fantastic day. Then again, that is on March
28th. You can follow me, your host, on Instagram
Enfergrace or follow me on Facebook Enfer Thompson
Consulting. Until next time, thanks for listening.
Goodbye, M. Goodbye.