WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:13.325 --> 00:00:14.495 Eric Makelky: all right, well good morning. 00:00:14.495 --> 00:00:16.085 Welcome to the Transformative Principal. 00:00:16.085 --> 00:00:17.985 This is your host, Eric Mekelky. 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.080 And on today's show, we have two guests, Dr. Robert Feirson. 00:00:22.205 --> 00:00:23.435 Welcome to the show. 00:00:24.005 --> 00:00:24.395 Robert Feirsen: thank you. 00:00:24.395 --> 00:00:25.355 Thank you for having me. 00:00:25.685 --> 00:00:28.865 Eric Makelky: Yes, and also joining us, Dr. Seth Weitzman. 00:00:28.870 --> 00:00:29.495 Welcome. 00:00:30.425 --> 00:00:32.315 Seth Weitzman: Nice to be here from New York. 00:00:32.525 --> 00:00:33.335 Eric Makelky: Yes. 00:00:33.365 --> 00:00:33.875 Yeah. 00:00:34.505 --> 00:00:48.175 So today's topic, I was personally really interested in when I saw the title of the book, that you guys had, co-authored Conflict to Collaboration as School Leaders Guide to Unleashing Conflicts, problem Solving Power. 00:00:48.665 --> 00:00:52.235 We were talking before we started recording this morning. 00:00:52.705 --> 00:00:53.785 This sometimes is what. 00:00:54.365 --> 00:00:55.865 Principal's up at night. 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:57.940 Seth Weitzman: It sure is. 00:00:58.570 --> 00:01:07.480 You know, it's funny, you, run into people as a principal, you run into people, at a party and they say, oh, it must be so nice being a school principal. 00:01:08.270 --> 00:01:15.470 You go home at three o'clock , it's, it's a warm and fuzzy place to be, and of course they don't realize the truth. 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:29.525 And for me, that came about because, I, I was very active in, suburban New York City at the, County level and also the state level or associations of principals would meet periodically. 00:01:29.525 --> 00:01:40.208 And I noticed that, during the lunch break or after work, when we went out, I'd sit back and listen to what people were complaining about. 00:01:40.208 --> 00:01:42.728 I mean, everybody can complain about their jobs, right? 00:01:43.208 --> 00:01:45.908 And I noticed that it was. 00:01:46.838 --> 00:01:51.638 Teachers versus teachers, and the principal had to sort it out. 00:01:51.638 --> 00:01:58.918 It was teachers, against, administrators, often involving unions here in New York. 00:01:58.918 --> 00:02:10.046 It was, Parents, sending principals overnight emails with, subject lines like important issue to deal with. 00:02:10.046 --> 00:02:15.146 Eric smiling because he, just got one of those last night actually. 00:02:15.656 --> 00:02:22.526 but I realized that all of this stuff had a common theme and that was. 00:02:23.936 --> 00:02:34.616 Principals didn't like dealing with a conflict on the job and also didn't know how to as well. 00:02:34.616 --> 00:02:42.194 And, I was in a bookstore one day, uh, in the business shelves actually looking for books on school leadership. 00:02:42.244 --> 00:02:45.124 Often you have to look in the business section. 00:02:45.794 --> 00:02:49.514 and I found one called Leading through Conflict. 00:02:49.519 --> 00:02:54.394 And I had an epiphany standing there in the Harvard coop, was the name of the bookstore. 00:02:54.474 --> 00:02:58.254 And realized that, you know, maybe there's something I could do about it. 00:02:58.259 --> 00:03:03.294 Maybe it wasn't just a distasteful part of the job that I had to live with. 00:03:03.294 --> 00:03:10.404 And there actually is a body of research out there, comes from business and organizational psychology. 00:03:10.707 --> 00:03:19.706 But, it more than anything, the last 10 years that I was a principal and I was a principal in total 27 years. 00:03:19.806 --> 00:03:24.066 But it changed my practice more than anything in the last 10 years. 00:03:24.553 --> 00:03:28.263 Eric Makelky: and you, you were, were you middle school level principal, Seth? 00:03:28.728 --> 00:03:32.038 Seth Weitzman: You can send me condolences, . But I loved it. 00:03:32.043 --> 00:03:37.288 Actually, I was a middle school principal in two different school districts for a total of 27 years. 00:03:37.528 --> 00:03:42.268 Rob, was a middle school principal as well, and then went on to become a superintendent. 00:03:42.723 --> 00:03:42.933 Robert Feirsen: Yeah. 00:03:43.293 --> 00:03:45.963 Actually we met, we met his middle school principal colleagues. 00:03:46.144 --> 00:03:49.174 And actually Seth was the middle school principal for my kids. 00:03:49.294 --> 00:03:50.314 I just remembered that. 00:03:50.374 --> 00:03:52.724 So I really do have a vendetta here to 00:03:53.431 --> 00:03:56.311 Seth Weitzman: They were great kids and one of them just had a baby 00:03:56.431 --> 00:03:56.701 Robert Feirsen: Yeah. 00:03:56.701 --> 00:03:57.211 Thank you. 00:03:57.541 --> 00:03:58.051 Thank you. 00:03:58.126 --> 00:03:58.576 Eric Makelky: All right. 00:03:58.576 --> 00:04:00.616 That's a nice, that's a nice connection. 00:04:00.626 --> 00:04:04.706 So Rob, where'd your motivation come from with the book based on your experiences? 00:04:05.646 --> 00:04:06.346 Robert Feirsen: Uh, I think it's twofold. 00:04:06.969 --> 00:04:10.114 Similarly from experience, I was a principal. 00:04:10.114 --> 00:04:20.114 I was an assistant superintendent, I was a superintendent, and certainly, a good part of your day as a school leader at any level are filled with the challenges that you don't have on your calendar. 00:04:20.849 --> 00:04:23.429 You walk in the morning and you think, well, I have to do this. 00:04:23.429 --> 00:04:24.119 I'll get this done. 00:04:24.119 --> 00:04:25.229 I'll get that done, and. 00:04:25.696 --> 00:04:36.581 Very quickly, it kind of dissembles because, one issue or another comes up and it's often the kind of tension between opposing viewpoints, opposing issues, opposing approaches to something. 00:04:37.161 --> 00:04:38.721 So certainly that that is one. 00:04:38.721 --> 00:04:41.661 And, so when Seth and I talked, it was certainly struck a nerve. 00:04:42.196 --> 00:04:58.116 And the second piece is that I've been working, in higher ed either part-time or full-time, for a good number of years, and working particularly in school leadership programs with aspiring school leaders, principals, aspiring directors, chair people, superintendents, et cetera. 00:04:58.836 --> 00:05:06.796 And they always, mentioned almost spontaneously at one point or another that the thing that they are most fearful of is, conflict. 00:05:07.146 --> 00:05:14.811 They worry about how to deal with issues that arise between stakeholders in some level, they worry about dissension and how they'll manage that. 00:05:14.811 --> 00:05:18.021 They worry about controversial issues and how to approach those things. 00:05:18.561 --> 00:05:25.671 And even in higher, even principal preparation courses, there, there is no focus on this topic. 00:05:25.671 --> 00:05:39.411 So we send people out into the field to learn by experience and that's not a great way to do it because what happens is they're unprepared to look at this strategically To be able to harness conflict, for ways to improve their schools. 00:05:41.408 --> 00:05:45.658 Eric Makelky: How often do you see that with your aspiring principles? 00:05:46.418 --> 00:05:49.608 Their fear of conflict leads to avoiding conflict. 00:05:51.368 --> 00:05:52.428 Robert Feirsen: I, I think it's very common. 00:05:52.428 --> 00:05:56.918 I mean, it's right on the tip of their tongue, and then it's what they'll tell you that they're most afraid of. 00:05:57.428 --> 00:05:58.638 And what we, the. 00:05:58.961 --> 00:06:02.681 Kind of perspective that we have very often about conflict is that it's a bad thing. 00:06:02.771 --> 00:06:08.291 So if you are experiencing conflict in some way as a school leader, you've done something wrong. 00:06:08.901 --> 00:06:10.546 You've made something worse. 00:06:10.946 --> 00:06:21.211 But the fact of the matter is, is Seth and I learned as we delved into this subject more deeply and thought about our own experiences and reflected upon them in ways that we came out of this in productive ways. 00:06:21.691 --> 00:06:23.841 What you can do is harness conflict. 00:06:23.846 --> 00:06:24.751 What you can do is dress. 00:06:25.861 --> 00:06:26.851 Constructively. 00:06:27.151 --> 00:06:31.361 And when you do that, you do many things that are beneficial for your school. 00:06:31.751 --> 00:06:33.401 You create better relationships. 00:06:33.851 --> 00:06:36.341 You foster better communication. 00:06:36.701 --> 00:06:42.226 You build your school's capacity to solve future problems because you learn how to do these things. 00:06:42.826 --> 00:06:45.916 In, in our book we call this conflict agility. 00:06:46.531 --> 00:06:55.981 You, you, which is basically, Seth up and says it's like a muscle and if you don't pay attention to it, it becomes, unused and deteriorates. 00:06:55.986 --> 00:07:05.241 But when you exercise these conflict agility strategies, you wind up strengthening that muscle, not just for yourself, but for the school community as a whole. 00:07:06.391 --> 00:07:17.480 Seth Weitzman: I just want to go back, Eric, before we move on and talk about how, school leaders can, manage conflict, I wanted to go back to the question of, the impact of neglecting conflict. 00:07:17.485 --> 00:07:27.200 And of course, you know, any conflict, whether it's in a marriage, family with your children, what have conflict, unaddressed, just festers, but. 00:07:27.249 --> 00:07:39.459 I also believe that some of the, substantive issues that we face in school, and I know that, mentioning it might be controversial in some, places, but, issues like. 00:07:40.449 --> 00:07:44.439 Racism in school issues like inequity. 00:07:44.589 --> 00:07:58.419 I think part of the reason why these issues have persisted is because school leaders have overlooked them for fear of the conflict that they will inevitably bring. 00:07:58.569 --> 00:07:59.619 There's a great book. 00:07:59.624 --> 00:08:03.749 There's one book that I, like to shout out in these presentations. 00:08:04.709 --> 00:08:15.209 Paul with the best intentions written by two authors named Lewis and Diamond that describes exactly this in a high school outside Chicago. 00:08:15.309 --> 00:08:19.389 Everybody's kind of aware for parents, school administrators, teachers. 00:08:19.799 --> 00:08:36.470 Everyone's aware of the inequities that exist in the school, but there is an unwillingness to actually deal with them because people fear the conflict that will result and where that will end up. 00:08:36.670 --> 00:08:42.924 Eric Makelky: Yeah, just, it just kind of festers and sometimes we put our heads in the sand and just hope you know. 00:08:43.464 --> 00:08:44.634 Nobody brings it up. 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:45.579 Seth Weitzman: Yeah. 00:08:45.579 --> 00:08:45.819 Mm-hmm. 00:08:45.894 --> 00:08:46.344 Eric Makelky: Yeah. 00:08:46.404 --> 00:08:55.224 Has the, has the library, book situation been as lively on the East Coast as it has been in the West with banning books? 00:08:55.629 --> 00:08:56.889 Seth Weitzman: I don't think so. 00:08:56.889 --> 00:09:14.584 There are, in the county that I live, just north of New York City, Westchester County, there's one school district in particular, but no, opening up a newspaper, The book banning issue, c r t, also has not been the kind of hot button issue that it's been elsewhere in the country. 00:09:15.259 --> 00:09:33.494 Robert Feirsen: But I think what we've experienced in, at least in, in this area, in New York, and probably surrounding the metropolitan New York City, area is Discussions that sometimes get heated over, first of all, during Covid, certainly there were many controversies about when schools should open, shouldn't open, wonder what conditions, et cetera. 00:09:34.034 --> 00:09:37.754 But what's come out of that too is, controversy about social emotional learning. 00:09:38.454 --> 00:09:42.489 it's placed in the curriculum, what it means, how it should get done. 00:09:42.949 --> 00:09:53.659 Even the term itself is a, is kind of a hot button issue, which is one of the things that, we talk about in terms of strategies is how to deescalate those kinds of conversations and turn them into productive, discussions. 00:09:54.049 --> 00:09:54.229 Seth Weitzman: Yeah. 00:09:54.439 --> 00:09:59.899 It's interesting to us that we wrote the book, two years ago, I think. 00:10:00.724 --> 00:10:06.004 Pressed submit and sent the manuscript onto the editor. 00:10:06.004 --> 00:10:15.534 And the manuscript was about the run of the mill school conflict that we've been describing, bet among stakeholders in the school. 00:10:15.614 --> 00:10:22.730 But, within six months after we submitted the manuscript, the kinds of, political. 00:10:23.105 --> 00:10:29.785 Strife, C R t book banding, et cetera, had, you know, reached national headlines. 00:10:29.815 --> 00:10:33.620 It's interesting, Rob and I sometimes we ask ourselves a question. 00:10:33.880 --> 00:10:38.560 When is the, is this the worst period of school conflict? 00:10:39.025 --> 00:10:46.535 In the United States in terms of conflict, into the national headlines, and you have to go back quite a few years, we think. 00:10:46.535 --> 00:10:53.255 I mean, 1954 Brown versus Board of Education and Desegregation in the 1970s. 00:10:53.255 --> 00:10:57.015 This has been a difficult period to be a school leader. 00:10:57.895 --> 00:10:58.160 Eric Makelky: Yeah. 00:10:58.250 --> 00:10:59.030 Yeah, definitely. 00:10:59.030 --> 00:11:01.130 Things that I don't know. 00:11:01.490 --> 00:11:08.600 One was prepared to have conversations about and think would become such big topics. 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:22.155 And really the, some of those conflicts way beyond, the in-house conflicts with students and staff and parents and it's more of community-wide or, or statewide or national conflict. 00:11:22.210 --> 00:11:32.596 So I mentioned a little bit guys that sometimes, leaders will avoid conflict, but how else do you see principles, approaching conflict? 00:11:32.664 --> 00:11:35.884 What other approaches are there besides, just avoid it and hope. 00:11:36.034 --> 00:11:36.904 Hope for the best. 00:11:37.534 --> 00:11:39.634 Seth Weitzman: Well, we say there are three basic approaches. 00:11:39.634 --> 00:11:41.554 There are the three, a's we call them. 00:11:41.554 --> 00:11:42.514 One is avoidance. 00:11:42.564 --> 00:11:44.329 It takes many forms. 00:11:44.379 --> 00:11:49.699 We've all probably known school leaders who set up committees. 00:11:50.429 --> 00:11:54.139 Ask you to join, and you go, I don't know if I wanna join this. 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:57.499 Because, the committee's not going anywhere. 00:11:57.819 --> 00:12:01.969 they're going to deliberate the issue. 00:12:01.969 --> 00:12:07.759 And when it comes to recommendations, at some point it gets buried. 00:12:08.149 --> 00:12:10.961 That's a form of, Of avoidance, right? 00:12:10.961 --> 00:12:13.601 So avoidance takes lots of different forms. 00:12:13.601 --> 00:12:17.261 Another the second a we call aggression. 00:12:17.381 --> 00:12:25.231 I'm surprised as a, also teaching, in an ED leadership program at Mercy College here in New York. 00:12:25.561 --> 00:12:32.191 How many of my students who are all teachers at this point, aspiring school leaders? 00:12:33.651 --> 00:12:38.481 Talk about the aggressive approach to conflict from their principals. 00:12:38.781 --> 00:12:52.061 And it's everything from yes, screaming . I can't believe it as if they think that there's something to be gained, just outright yelling at school school staff. 00:12:52.441 --> 00:12:54.121 But it's beyond that. 00:12:54.121 --> 00:12:56.991 We also say it's, using. 00:12:57.666 --> 00:13:05.696 The, incentives and disincentives, institutional incentives and disincentives in order to coerce an outcome. 00:13:05.936 --> 00:13:11.786 So, for example, who gets the best parking space assigned? 00:13:12.446 --> 00:13:16.916 Who gets the preferential teaching schedule? 00:13:17.701 --> 00:13:19.946 , what was your end of year rating? 00:13:20.036 --> 00:13:28.796 I mean, these are the kinds of, incentives and disincentives that principals sometimes use in order to coerce an outcome. 00:13:28.946 --> 00:13:33.026 We say that's a form of aggression as well. 00:13:33.096 --> 00:13:39.106 And then the third a as Rob, began describing before is addressing the school conflict. 00:13:39.111 --> 00:13:41.656 That's being upfront and honest. 00:13:42.346 --> 00:13:50.166 At the same time, respectful of each other, we kind of put the approach into two different categories. 00:13:50.436 --> 00:13:53.686 One are the leadership strategies. 00:13:54.186 --> 00:13:58.806 that can be employed and we have quite a number of them in our book. 00:13:59.196 --> 00:14:15.546 And the second is a protocol that we adapted from design thinking, which actually comes from the field of engineering, but can be used in a productive way to, to take on, some of the controversial issues we face. 00:14:17.346 --> 00:14:21.606 Eric Makelky: Is it safe to say we should shoot for addressing over avoidance and aggression? 00:14:21.611 --> 00:14:22.716 Is that always the better? 00:14:22.836 --> 00:14:23.676 The better choice? 00:14:24.386 --> 00:14:25.281 Seth Weitzman: very safe to say. 00:14:26.151 --> 00:14:36.336 There are Todd, actually, the serious answer, this is kind of a, in the weeds, but, sometimes it does make sense to avoid, you have, the phrase, that's not the hill I want to die on. 00:14:36.426 --> 00:14:37.206 You know that phrase. 00:14:37.866 --> 00:14:38.193 Yeah. 00:14:38.193 --> 00:14:39.393 Sometimes it does make sense. 00:14:39.393 --> 00:14:42.648 You can't take on every issue. 00:14:43.008 --> 00:14:49.848 And we also say in our book that it also is sensible at times to pick the low hanging fruit. 00:14:50.028 --> 00:14:58.443 Use another metaphor, we say start by, taking on the less consequential. 00:14:59.408 --> 00:15:12.138 Conflicts in a school until the faculty gets more accustomed to that and confident in their ability to listen to each other and to reach a resolution. 00:15:12.318 --> 00:15:16.333 I did that as a school principal of, actually, it's where I started. 00:15:16.333 --> 00:15:20.293 I began faculty meetings with, I called. 00:15:21.193 --> 00:15:24.493 For the good of the order, or they kind of mocked that. 00:15:24.493 --> 00:15:36.473 For some reason I changed it to, for the school, for the good of the school and, I invited teachers to bring up issues as long as they were school-wide issues. 00:15:36.478 --> 00:15:42.778 Not my own particular problem, you know, in my, classroom or department, what have you. 00:15:43.168 --> 00:15:47.478 And as long as they, were going to make themselves. 00:15:48.273 --> 00:15:56.636 Part of the solution, you couldn't just, point fingers or offload the problem onto the school administrators. 00:15:56.736 --> 00:16:08.291 So I would actually solicit issues and we'd spend the first 10 minutes of a faculty meeting, in a community problem solving excercise. 00:16:08.611 --> 00:16:09.931 So a teacher might, stand up. 00:16:09.931 --> 00:16:11.101 This is middle school, right? 00:16:11.151 --> 00:16:12.501 What they look like in the spring. 00:16:13.131 --> 00:16:20.931 so a teacher might say, behavior in the hallways, this is what's going on. 00:16:21.231 --> 00:16:24.396 We had the phrase, spring has sprung, right? 00:16:25.086 --> 00:16:28.896 I'm sure it's everywhere in the world among, I love them. 00:16:28.896 --> 00:16:33.786 11, 12, 13, 14 year olds and together. 00:16:34.566 --> 00:16:38.256 We would brainstorm solutions to it. 00:16:38.306 --> 00:16:39.146 I'm the principal. 00:16:39.146 --> 00:16:40.496 I better get out there in the hall. 00:16:40.496 --> 00:16:46.106 We all should get out there, during the change of classes, we, whatever solutions came up. 00:16:46.106 --> 00:16:50.576 But we practiced group problem solving. 00:16:50.906 --> 00:16:52.356 And, what's an example? 00:16:52.746 --> 00:17:11.516 Robert Feirsen: So what Seth, illustrates in that discussion is the one of our key principles, which is principle ple, which is, taking a kind of step back and being able to put a structure around these, issues, these conflicts, the dissension that you experience rather than deal with it, you know, fighting it off as it comes to you. 00:17:12.086 --> 00:17:17.331 People, what people do with principles is they walk into the office and they dump their problem on you and they walk out. 00:17:17.501 --> 00:17:20.741 And that's certainly not a way to address something constructively. 00:17:20.741 --> 00:17:31.191 So everything that we talk about in the book really addresses how to bring people together, how to, foster communication, how to encourage dialogue in a productive way. 00:17:31.821 --> 00:17:39.321 So that you engage people in addressing conflict rather than try to battle it single-handedly and fight it off, 00:17:39.531 --> 00:17:41.166 Eric Makelky: And the, I think about that a lot. 00:17:41.216 --> 00:17:43.049 it's kind of taxing. 00:17:43.634 --> 00:17:45.254 When these situations come up. 00:17:45.254 --> 00:17:53.744 But the goal always is empower people to solve problems themselves or amongst themselves. 00:17:54.524 --> 00:18:10.759 Instead of, Hey, if you come to me, I'll solve this problem for you because you're just building in that well it, next time there's a problem, it needs to go to somebody else and they'll, solve it for me, which isn't, that's not what we want with students and that's not what we want with staff and parents. 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:21.633 So how, how about this guys, what about if you have someone you work with that they're really, really good at avoiding conflict? 00:18:21.873 --> 00:18:37.969 When there is any possibility of any conflict, a hundred percent avoidance, how would you help them start, leaning into and maybe trying to flex those conflict muscles a little bit and get out of their conflict cave. 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:40.099 Seth Weitzman: I like that phrase. 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.673 So the, first step and then I'll turn it over to, uh, Rob. 00:18:44.723 --> 00:18:48.713 I'm stealing this from Rob because it's, this is what he usually begins with. 00:18:48.713 --> 00:18:50.123 So conflict feels bad. 00:18:50.463 --> 00:19:00.128 When you're faced with a conflict situation, you start sweating blotches on your skin, anxiety level rises. 00:19:00.758 --> 00:19:03.943 So, this is, pop psychology maybe. 00:19:04.183 --> 00:19:06.973 But the first thing to do is to take a breath, right? 00:19:07.223 --> 00:19:10.973 Try to relax, calm yourself. 00:19:11.363 --> 00:19:16.433 Realize that maybe this isn't directed at you. 00:19:16.463 --> 00:19:19.963 Don't personalize the conflict. 00:19:20.183 --> 00:19:22.343 That's a good, oh, we also have a phrase. 00:19:22.343 --> 00:19:28.273 Um, I learned it from, maybe the school administrator I worked with who I admired most, over the years. 00:19:28.903 --> 00:19:41.483 He had a phrase, the issue isn't the issue, meaning the issue that's presented to you isn't necessarily the real issue that the person has. 00:19:41.583 --> 00:19:49.058 So the first step, is, Calm down and to try to get some perspective. 00:19:49.221 --> 00:19:51.091 And then I'll turn this to Rob. 00:19:51.253 --> 00:19:56.023 Robert Feirsen: To follow up with what Seth said, Certainly the issue is not always the issue. 00:19:56.023 --> 00:20:02.953 And I think it's part of, ,part of, in bringing people into the discussion is to kind of, understand where they're coming from. 00:20:03.223 --> 00:20:15.688 We spend a lot of time in the book talking about empathy, and developing a sense of empathy, which again, something that we often think about, but we don't necessarily know how to develop to try to find out what people are thinking, feeling, saying, and. 00:20:15.688 --> 00:20:26.128 doing So when you have that kind of reluctant partner, it's really important to really take good look at, all the things that he or she presents part of. 00:20:26.178 --> 00:20:30.228 Sometimes one of the things that we can engage people with is, a sense of dissonance. 00:20:30.858 --> 00:20:37.138 You know, the gap between what they think and what's actually happening, the gap between their beliefs and what's, occurring on the ground. 00:20:37.588 --> 00:20:50.683 And so engaging in a conversation or discussion about whatever that issue is and the gap between what they think they should be and what currently is, can be motivating and be encouraging to, bring into dialogue. 00:20:50.864 --> 00:20:54.134 There's also a tendency for us to simplify things all the time. 00:20:54.134 --> 00:20:58.884 We tend to think, see things in black and white and we don't see the shades of color in between. 00:20:59.484 --> 00:21:16.398 And so perhaps sometimes the first step in working with someone who is taking that kind of, very position, I'm not involved in this, I don't wanna get involved, I'm not interested, is to make things more complex or actually to show them that there are many things involved in a particular situation and that their perspective is a valid one. 00:21:16.598 --> 00:21:26.531 You know, you could say something like, I understand where you're coming from, and it's a valid opinion, although not necessarily one I agree with, inviting them to engage in, in deeper discussion. 00:21:26.531 --> 00:21:29.188 So we make it more complex. 00:21:29.193 --> 00:21:34.488 We make it a little bit more complicated than just yes or no, and that often sparks a discussion. 00:21:35.116 --> 00:21:35.446 Seth Weitzman: Yeah. 00:21:35.716 --> 00:21:40.501 You know, it's interesting to me that, I've been toying with this, idea of, let's. 00:21:41.146 --> 00:21:47.256 Step back and take a look at how our schools function. 00:21:47.316 --> 00:21:56.176 And you could try this, Eric, today in your school and maybe listeners can try it again cuz it's, it's fascinating to me. 00:21:56.226 --> 00:21:58.656 And I would do this as well. 00:21:58.656 --> 00:22:02.226 I'm now retired as a, school principal, but, so you're sitting in a meeting. 00:22:03.761 --> 00:22:07.371 Somebody brings up a controversial issue. 00:22:07.371 --> 00:22:08.241 It could be anything. 00:22:08.241 --> 00:22:13.801 You know, how do we teach reading, do we need to monitor the bathrooms more frequently? 00:22:13.801 --> 00:22:16.711 What have you, and they, propose a solution. 00:22:17.311 --> 00:22:18.231 It's interesting. 00:22:18.236 --> 00:22:23.806 Just step back next time you're at a meeting and you find yourself in this situation and listen to how people. 00:22:26.081 --> 00:22:28.761 Just pretend you're an, anthropologist. 00:22:28.761 --> 00:22:43.066 Maybe, ho uh, looking at a different culture, or I used to like the metaphor, pretend you're an extraterrestrial covering, a mile above, of Earth, looking at how these earth. 00:22:43.876 --> 00:22:44.626 Behave. 00:22:44.926 --> 00:22:56.026 And it's so fascinating to me because people would, be, I would notice that, uh, so somebody puts out an idea, you know, so ask yourself, how do others respond? 00:22:56.081 --> 00:22:57.431 Do they ask questions? 00:22:57.469 --> 00:23:03.609 The question mark is a lonely punctuation mark in the English language. 00:23:03.859 --> 00:23:06.439 People just don't like to use it, you know? 00:23:06.739 --> 00:23:16.224 So, in our book we try to encourage people to, leaders to get people to respond with genuine probing questions. 00:23:16.224 --> 00:23:26.494 I say genuine because, sometimes they, people start questions with, well, what about this, well wha that's not really a question, you know, that's a judgment disguised as a question. 00:23:26.614 --> 00:23:32.044 Um, so, they start pointing fingers as well. 00:23:32.114 --> 00:23:39.964 The school leader presents the, data, oh, the fourth grade, math results declined this year. 00:23:39.964 --> 00:23:41.874 And immediately people, point fingers. 00:23:41.874 --> 00:23:51.384 Well, in third grade, , they weren't so great neither, or, they find some way to, absolve themselves or blame other people. 00:23:51.389 --> 00:23:56.659 It's just fascinating to watch how groups naturally respond. 00:23:56.659 --> 00:23:59.359 There are psychological reasons to that. 00:23:59.419 --> 00:24:03.769 So, part of our book is, trying to figure out how to break. 00:24:04.744 --> 00:24:08.554 Cycles interrupt the dynamics. 00:24:08.764 --> 00:24:19.609 A phrase that we use in our book is Conflict without Divisiveness, that it seems like I, the way I put it is Eric, it's not enough for you and I to disagree. 00:24:19.879 --> 00:24:23.329 If you're gonna disagree with me, I also have to put you down. 00:24:23.334 --> 00:24:25.009 You're a worse person. 00:24:25.219 --> 00:24:27.889 You're less intelligent than I am. 00:24:27.889 --> 00:24:30.019 Obviously, I'm more handsome than you. 00:24:30.369 --> 00:24:32.499 Also, the list goes on. 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.149 And on. 00:24:34.149 --> 00:24:38.079 Of course, it doesn't have to be that way. 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:50.659 And we have some suggestions in our book, for leaders to establish a new professional norm in the school that we can disagree with each other. 00:24:51.439 --> 00:25:02.369 But people say, well, disagree, respectfully, and of course that's true, but we have specific strategies that people can use in order to, make that come to life. 00:25:04.366 --> 00:25:04.606 Eric Makelky: Seth. 00:25:04.606 --> 00:25:18.536 I was gonna tell you, I sometimes feel like what you were describing, you know, just observing a conflict in a group, because as a new principal, I kind of feel like, an observer because there's certain dynamics. 00:25:18.748 --> 00:25:31.783 And I'm thinking especially among the staff where you're just watching and observing and noticing, body language and tone and who crossed their arms and who's clenching their fist. 00:25:31.783 --> 00:25:33.503 And so I, can relate to that. 00:25:33.503 --> 00:25:37.741 We're working through, we, we've started a building leadership team. 00:25:38.101 --> 00:25:39.481 We call it the Guiding Coalition. 00:25:39.481 --> 00:25:48.131 And in our topic last week, we've tried to start with building some trust, just getting to know each other and be comfortable with each other in a small group. 00:25:48.136 --> 00:25:52.161 But what we started last week was, overcoming that fear of conflict. 00:25:52.221 --> 00:26:05.201 And it was really interesting to hear their, the teacher's perspective on, Why we avoid conflict and how that has worked in the past and what it's gonna take to overcome that. 00:26:05.361 --> 00:26:09.741 Because it's hard to change if that's been the culture really in the school. 00:26:10.141 --> 00:26:14.491 Seth Weitzman: That's interesting that they were conscious of that, that they could articulate that. 00:26:15.891 --> 00:26:23.681 Robert Feirsen: one of the ironies of conflict is that, to address it as you've started to do in your school, Eric, you really need to build relationships. 00:26:24.041 --> 00:26:27.461 And yet conflict, ironically tends to separate people. 00:26:27.466 --> 00:26:34.251 So the key part of the key to the solution is developing those relationships even though there are forces pulling you. 00:26:34.766 --> 00:26:41.601 There's a tendency to, you know, um, overgeneralize about the opposition side, and make it a black and white issue. 00:26:41.931 --> 00:26:44.151 There's emotionality that clouds our judgment. 00:26:44.641 --> 00:26:51.076 There's a, there's a interest in getting your agenda done and, rather than listening and working with the other side. 00:26:51.076 --> 00:26:53.956 So the conflict is driving people apart. 00:26:54.196 --> 00:27:09.986 The job of leadership here is to take a more 30,000 foot view of that and find the factors that can bring folks back together and find the ways to either create better communication, build relationships, and really solve the problems that the, that they're, addressing. 00:27:10.344 --> 00:27:14.424 Seth Weitzman: I do think, as Rob said before, we u we have this phrase, Conflict agility. 00:27:14.424 --> 00:27:20.894 And I do, we do think it's a muscle, that can atrophy if it's not used, but also can be, toned. 00:27:21.314 --> 00:27:22.214 If it is. 00:27:22.214 --> 00:27:29.569 And I have this story and I'm putting it out there, to show that, we can make progress in this area and this group. 00:27:29.624 --> 00:27:34.934 You're starting absolutely where you should start, which is trust. 00:27:34.934 --> 00:27:39.494 The mountain grows from, a foundation of trust. 00:27:39.574 --> 00:27:47.899 But this is again, from experience that, towards the end of my years as a principal, I was interested in inquiry-based learning. 00:27:47.899 --> 00:27:53.569 And it's a fundamental shift in the role that teachers would play. 00:27:54.229 --> 00:27:59.339 more as guides on the side, the phrase is, rather than sage on the stage. 00:28:00.029 --> 00:28:04.759 And, we really did something tremendous, in a short period of. 00:28:05.509 --> 00:28:14.529 Time and transformed the, way the children end the school year, all 1200 of them in three grades. 00:28:14.529 --> 00:28:34.669 And I'm positive that the reason why we were able to accomplish this was, was that we had learned how to deal with conflict and at one point, Conflict would've been an obstacle that we never would've surmounted. 00:28:34.909 --> 00:28:56.079 But because we had practiced in small parts and kind of built on, our conflict agility skills in the end, we had made great progress in curriculum and instruction because first we had learned to deal with the inevitable conflict that has to be worked through. 00:28:56.389 --> 00:29:00.106 Eric Makelky: Yeah and if you have that foundation, then you can take on anything. 00:29:00.106 --> 00:29:02.086 There's always gonna be another conflict. 00:29:02.376 --> 00:29:02.866 Seth Weitzman: Sure. 00:29:02.866 --> 00:29:03.626 Absolutely. 00:29:03.966 --> 00:29:11.106 Eric Makelky: Can you guys tell me, you mentioned, at the start of the conversation about the design thinking that came from the engineering field. 00:29:12.166 --> 00:29:14.596 Can you just tell me some more specifics about that? 00:29:14.596 --> 00:29:20.376 I, I don't know much about design thinking and I know nothing about engineering, so I'm just curious how that 00:29:20.481 --> 00:29:22.881 Robert Feirsen: Well, neither did we, so don't, don't feel badly. 00:29:22.881 --> 00:29:32.511 So, um, so design thinking, did evolve from engineering and it really is designed, the purpose of design thinking is to tackle what's called wicked problems. 00:29:32.561 --> 00:29:36.801 Wicked problems are the things that defy traditional ways of solution. 00:29:36.801 --> 00:29:38.146 They're not the easy things to do. 00:29:38.266 --> 00:29:40.456 They're not the mechanical things you can adjust. 00:29:40.936 --> 00:29:42.556 It's not just tinker here and there. 00:29:42.733 --> 00:29:48.403 it's these big issues that often wind up becoming, very conflicted issues in the school. 00:29:49.243 --> 00:29:59.121 And, it's a structured approach to this, which is designed to involve people's best thinking and develop solutions that are, meaningful and practical. 00:29:59.571 --> 00:30:03.161 There are five steps involved in it, and I'll just briefly go through them. 00:30:03.531 --> 00:30:06.441 The first step is empathy, and I talked about that before. 00:30:06.831 --> 00:30:13.086 The reason empathy is so critical, is that empathy really helps you understand the full scope of a problem. 00:30:13.086 --> 00:30:14.886 Because we all have tunnel vision. 00:30:15.686 --> 00:30:19.446 Everyone sees things from their own perspective, and it's unavoidable. 00:30:19.446 --> 00:30:20.946 We all carry biases with us. 00:30:20.946 --> 00:30:29.116 Whether it's, looking for facts that confirm what we already know or the tendency to believe people we already have relationships with, we all have that. 00:30:29.626 --> 00:30:35.026 So the first step is really gathering the sense of what's out there, what are people thinking, feeling, saying, and. 00:30:36.271 --> 00:30:43.081 Once you have that, because as Seth mentioned before, the presenting issue is not always the issue. 00:30:43.691 --> 00:30:51.036 and often there's an underlying values issue, perspective issue, cultural issue, organizational history issue. 00:30:51.041 --> 00:30:52.031 That's motivating it. 00:30:52.541 --> 00:30:57.921 So once you have that empathy information, you begin to define the problem more clearly. 00:30:58.041 --> 00:30:59.901 So that's the second step is define. 00:31:00.179 --> 00:31:01.589 , once you have the definition. 00:31:01.589 --> 00:31:03.869 The third step is to what we call ideate. 00:31:04.289 --> 00:31:11.589 So ideate is a process where you really, we call it thinking, there's thinking inside the box. 00:31:11.594 --> 00:31:14.109 Then people who oppose that say you have to think outside the box. 00:31:14.439 --> 00:31:16.809 We say ideate is thinking without a box at all. 00:31:17.679 --> 00:31:19.369 It's pure thought. 00:31:19.959 --> 00:31:22.209 It's really what are the possibilities here? 00:31:22.699 --> 00:31:29.309 With every idea accepted and every idea valued for its own sake, before you begin to win with down. 00:31:29.309 --> 00:31:36.989 And that's one of the errors people make in solving these kinds of issues, is that they tend to throw out things before they get a chance to fully consider them. 00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:39.089 So idea is step three. 00:31:39.689 --> 00:31:42.899 Step four in the traditional model is called the engineering model. 00:31:43.009 --> 00:31:47.834 It's called p. and prototype is really quick and dirty, quick and fast. 00:31:48.114 --> 00:31:50.544 Saying, how would we operation operationalize this? 00:31:50.544 --> 00:31:52.804 How would we make it come into existence? 00:31:53.294 --> 00:31:54.404 And thinking about that. 00:31:54.409 --> 00:32:02.784 Sometimes in schools we do pilots like that, but prototypes are really quick because if you spend a year piloting something, the issue may morph into something. 00:32:03.994 --> 00:32:10.474 So then you look at the prototypes and last step is what we call tests, which is really saying, okay, we think this is the model that will work. 00:32:10.834 --> 00:32:12.214 Now we're gonna begin this. 00:32:12.214 --> 00:32:17.924 Now we'll begin, this in earnest and see if it works, and gather data about that, and the process can repeat itself. 00:32:17.954 --> 00:32:30.554 You may find that when things engineers do is that they say if they get the prototype and the prototype doesn't work or work as well as they expected, they go back in the process and they go back to ideate or they go back to defining the problem. 00:32:30.584 --> 00:32:30.944 Maybe they. 00:32:32.284 --> 00:32:34.234 And it has a real history of success. 00:32:34.234 --> 00:32:43.324 This approach has a tremendous history of success, not only in engineering, but in business and in, a field that I find has many parallels to education, which is healthcare. 00:32:44.494 --> 00:32:47.644 Because in healthcare too, we're dealing with many, many people. 00:32:48.094 --> 00:32:50.374 There are many different professions involved. 00:32:50.374 --> 00:32:55.064 There are levels of professional expertise, and is an urgency because you're dealing with human life. 00:32:55.338 --> 00:33:00.001 so It has a, real record of success in those areas, not so much in education. 00:33:00.001 --> 00:33:05.881 And part of our work is to help people understand how this process can be adapted for use in schools. 00:33:06.031 --> 00:33:17.251 The beauty of the process is that not only does it create lots of possibilities for solutions, but in that process of dialogue and really engaging creatively with others, it brings people together. 00:33:18.021 --> 00:33:21.346 So we talked about relationships before and the importance of relationships. 00:33:21.646 --> 00:33:23.416 It builds those relationships. 00:33:23.416 --> 00:33:26.986 So you don't wind up with a this side and a that side. 00:33:27.166 --> 00:33:29.696 You wind up with a problem solving, group, 00:33:30.046 --> 00:33:30.536 Eric Makelky: Yeah. 00:33:30.536 --> 00:33:33.666 Instead of having those opposing teams, I'm on this team, 00:33:34.066 --> 00:33:34.156 Robert Feirsen: right. 00:33:34.156 --> 00:33:34.991 Eric Makelky: You're on that team. 00:33:35.591 --> 00:33:36.011 Yeah. 00:33:36.311 --> 00:33:44.886 I, now that you describe that, I wonder if that's where I had a superintendent years ago use, he called it like a 90 day design cycle. 00:33:45.396 --> 00:33:49.926 You would test for 30 days and then kind of review initial results so 00:33:50.033 --> 00:33:50.213 Robert Feirsen: Yeah. 00:33:50.213 --> 00:33:51.413 There are lots of spinoffs from 00:33:51.458 --> 00:33:52.358 Seth Weitzman: Very similar. 00:33:53.093 --> 00:33:53.583 Eric Makelky: yeah. 00:33:53.818 --> 00:33:53.963 Seth Weitzman: Yeah. 00:33:54.143 --> 00:33:56.393 Because it's not the way we work in education. 00:33:56.463 --> 00:34:04.733 Typically what we do, I'm sure you've been on these committees out in Wyoming as much as we've been then on them in New York, you form a, committee. 00:34:04.733 --> 00:34:30.219 It might be a curriculum committee for example, so you all meet and write the, curriculum and you know, then you're done and you say goodbye to each other, I'll see you, next committee that forms or, and uh, you're done . As if, you've reached the all time, perfect solution as opposed to this, I mean, you described it as a 90 day, we're gonna go back and, reassess and, maybe redesign right away, 00:34:30.459 --> 00:34:30.949 Eric Makelky: yeah. 00:34:31.629 --> 00:34:45.759 Robert Feirsen: I think it's important for us to agree on what success looks like, and then that's really a key piece of the process is what does it look like when it's done, what does it look like when it's successful, so that we were able to say confidently, we've either done it or let's go back and try some more. 00:34:46.009 --> 00:34:46.939 Eric Makelky: Well, thanks guys. 00:34:46.939 --> 00:34:49.959 I wanted to throw out, the final question to you today. 00:34:50.009 --> 00:34:54.039 What can principals do this week to be a more Transformative leader like you? 00:34:54.264 --> 00:34:57.414 Robert Feirsen: That's a very interesting and important question, so thanks for posing it. 00:34:57.944 --> 00:35:00.044 I think we've kind of addressed that in some way. 00:35:00.044 --> 00:35:02.378 There, there are two things, and I think they're, both related. 00:35:02.888 --> 00:35:03.828 One is build trust. 00:35:05.038 --> 00:35:13.633 because at its bottom, everything we've talked about, relies on developing that sense of trust, that sense of that, that you are what you purport to be. 00:35:14.113 --> 00:35:21.093 That I can, see you being consistent person, that I can feel that you're honest with me and that you're approachable. 00:35:21.403 --> 00:35:25.133 Those things translate, for school leaders into many aspects of their. 00:35:25.753 --> 00:35:31.843 With every stakeholder, possible, kids, parents, staff, faculty, you name it. 00:35:32.433 --> 00:35:34.533 And when you build trust, you build relationships. 00:35:34.533 --> 00:35:44.432 And one of the authors that I like best is Michael Fallen, who studied school change, very deeply, and he always comes down to the same phrase, which is, it's about relationships. 00:35:45.032 --> 00:35:46.962 And good relationships are founded on trust. 00:35:47.108 --> 00:35:49.038 Seth Weitzman: Am I allowed to slightly modify your question? 00:35:49.038 --> 00:35:49.368 Eric Makelky: Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:52.208 --> 00:35:54.278 Seth Weitzman: So I would actually think about this. 00:35:54.378 --> 00:36:00.948 So there are days that you're sitting behind your desk as a school principal. 00:36:01.248 --> 00:36:09.578 It's probably, let's say two o'clock in the afternoon at this point, and you feel like you spent your entire day. 00:36:10.803 --> 00:36:15.803 Answering emails, there's a mountain of reports. 00:36:15.803 --> 00:36:25.603 You've been putting out fires, all day and you really haven't moved the organization forward. 00:36:25.793 --> 00:36:38.563 So this is my, answer to the question and that is do something every day that really makes a difference in your school. 00:36:38.827 --> 00:36:42.337 Spend an hour every day. 00:36:42.367 --> 00:36:43.687 Don't go home. 00:36:43.757 --> 00:36:57.457 Or let a day go by unless you've spent an hour on, something that is crucial to your school and makes a long term difference 00:36:58.077 --> 00:36:58.827 Eric Makelky: I love that. 00:36:58.887 --> 00:37:01.017 I don't always know what that is, 00:37:01.947 --> 00:37:05.247 Seth Weitzman: And it's different of course, in every school, for every person. 00:37:05.367 --> 00:37:06.537 Um, yeah. 00:37:07.047 --> 00:37:07.947 Eric Makelky: I heard a great. 00:37:08.025 --> 00:37:16.885 Principal of the year speech at a state conference, and he talked about, principles need to mow the lawn more. 00:37:17.485 --> 00:37:30.923 And his analogy was that feeling when you get done mowing the lawn and it's clean, the stripes are in it, you're sitting down enjoying a cold beverage and you, see that you accomplish something because as a principal you go. 00:37:32.168 --> 00:37:40.178 Emotionally, physically exhausted, but you oftentimes leave the building wondering, what did I accomplish today? 00:37:41.258 --> 00:37:43.238 Seth Weitzman: Yes, true. 00:37:43.718 --> 00:37:44.888 How old are your children? 00:37:44.918 --> 00:37:45.943 Your children are younger 00:37:45.943 --> 00:37:46.033 Eric Makelky: right? 00:37:46.298 --> 00:37:47.488 Uh, Uh four and two 00:37:48.078 --> 00:37:48.113 Seth Weitzman: Yeah. 00:37:48.173 --> 00:37:49.613 Like what does a principal do? 00:37:49.673 --> 00:37:52.793 Like they know what a policeman does and they know what a firefighter does. 00:37:53.288 --> 00:37:54.533 , what do you tell 'em You do, 00:37:55.028 --> 00:37:59.503 Eric Makelky: Well, I, last night I had 'em at the, basketball games and the bleachers. 00:38:00.223 --> 00:38:05.888 and, one of my daughters didn't put her shoes back on and I said, Hey, you need to be a good listener. 00:38:05.888 --> 00:38:10.148 And she said, if I don't, are you gonna put me in the principal's office? 00:38:11.398 --> 00:38:11.748 So 00:38:11.843 --> 00:38:12.533 Seth Weitzman: She knows. 00:38:12.608 --> 00:38:19.383 Eric Makelky: she, someone, someone has told her, I don't know if that came from her mother or, or who that was, but, yeah. 00:38:19.383 --> 00:38:26.608 Seth Weitzman: It It speaks to the part of the job that, people just don't understand unless they're actually in it. 00:38:26.608 --> 00:38:43.345 And I, I love the mow the lawn, metaphor that, it's a, the progress is incremental and constantly building on itself, and it's hard to see sometimes at the end of the school day, how exactly you moved the goalpost, 00:38:43.570 --> 00:38:46.390 Eric Makelky: Yeah, it just, it's nice to have that tangible, 00:38:46.615 --> 00:38:47.105 Seth Weitzman: Yeah. 00:38:47.540 --> 00:38:48.410 Eric Makelky: In Wyoming. 00:38:48.930 --> 00:38:53.920 Where I've been, it's been a wild winter with snow, so there's no, no lawn to mow for months. 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:58.640 But I come in early and I, I plow the snow instead of mow the lawn. 00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:00.050 And it really does feel good. 00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:11.470 When you get done and you look at, sidewalks or a section of a parking lot and you see pavement, you're like, okay, no matter how this day goes, I got that reinforcement of I accomplished something which you know. 00:39:12.090 --> 00:39:14.035 Seth Weitzman: this is a personal story. 00:39:14.045 --> 00:39:26.535 I don't know whether you wanna cut this out in the end, so I mentioned before that I take long bike rides, multi-week bike rides and, I normally mow the lawn, but my wife started mowing the lawn, in my absence. 00:39:26.865 --> 00:39:32.655 And when I came back and asked her how she liked it, she said she loves it actually. 00:39:32.655 --> 00:39:36.045 She wants to take over the job. 00:39:36.450 --> 00:39:37.230 Why? 00:39:37.235 --> 00:39:39.270 She said, I never understood. 00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:41.520 She said, this is exactly what you were saying before. 00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:43.080 She said, I never understood. 00:39:43.080 --> 00:39:49.260 I always thought it was weird that after you mowed the lawn, you would, for days you'd stare at the lawn. 00:39:49.740 --> 00:39:52.980 Same thing when you shoveled the snow. 00:39:53.170 --> 00:40:00.270 You'd stare at it for, she'd catched me at night, like looking out the window at the shoveled, you know, walkway 00:40:01.450 --> 00:40:02.560 she said, now I get it. 00:40:02.620 --> 00:40:10.440 You wanna see the, the lawn that you just mowed and feel like, wow, I did that Good advice for a principal. 00:40:10.563 --> 00:40:11.583 Eric Makelky: Well thank you guys. 00:40:11.613 --> 00:40:29.948 Really appreciate you coming on the show today and sharing some, resources and ideas to deal with conflict because it is, it's something we, know we're gonna deal with and, we can always use, some of those strategies to really harness the power of the conflict instead of avoiding it or, or just getting angry about it. 00:40:29.948 --> 00:40:31.018 So thank you 00:40:31.488 --> 00:40:41.213 Robert Feirsen: well, thank you for having us, and certainly we invite your listeners and, those who tune into the podcast to contact us to reach out to us if they have questions and wanna continue the conversation. 00:40:41.313 --> 00:40:47.523 Eric Makelky: We'll have a link in the show notes, but did you guys wanna share, the best way to contact you for listeners who have questions? 00:40:48.803 --> 00:40:49.583 Robert Feirsen: Sure. 00:40:49.653 --> 00:40:55.383 They can email us at info I N F O teacher edge.net. 00:40:55.560 --> 00:40:56.400 Teacher edge, one 00:40:56.475 --> 00:41:01.065 Seth Weitzman: C H E R E D G e, teacher edge, um, net. 00:41:01.770 --> 00:41:06.490 Eric Makelky: Great, and then we'll have a link in the show notes to both of your email addresses as well. 00:41:06.610 --> 00:41:07.420 Thank you guys. 00:41:07.450 --> 00:41:07.720 Really 00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:08.920 Robert Feirsen: Thank you very much. 00:41:09.235 --> 00:41:09.745 Seth Weitzman: Thank you.