Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
Okay.
Welcome to Transformative Principle.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones.
Even though I will admit, by the way, I am taking a break from social media for, uh, the next couple weeks.
It's been going on for almost a month, and we'll continue until my birthday at the end of October.
And then I don't know if I'll sign back in or not.
That's always the question.
But when I find myself getting sucked into all the drama, then I like to take a step back and say, who's in control here?
Me or the drama.
And sometimes the drama is, but this time.
I was in control, so I took a little break Today.
I am excited to have on the program Dr. Kelly Hastings.
She was, she interviewed me on the show, uh, almost a year ago to talk about saboteurs.
You can find a link to that in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org.
But, uh, she is awesome and I thought it was a good time to get her back on the show.
She's been, uh.
Middle school principal as well as many other things, and has been in education for over 28 years, which is not an insignificant amount of time.
she is married in the proud mother of four children and grandmother to four grandchildren ranging in age from eight to 16.
They live nearby and she delights in cheering them on their many activities from baseball and dance to TaeKwonDo and more.
Kelly, welcome to Transformative Principles.
So great to have you here.
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
Thanks.
Oh my pleasure.
Now we're gonna talk about your book Leading Change that Lasts, which people can get a copy of by going to the show notes at Transformative principle.org.
The book is Leading Change that Lasts, I thought the best way to talk about this would be to share some examples of how people could do things.
So tell us first what leading change that lasts is all about.
So the book was written.
I have a lot of reflection and um, I made a lot of mistakes as a middle school principal, and so after I retired from public education, I heard about implementation science.
And thought, where has this been on my career?
Because it would've made a huge difference, not only for me as a leader, but for my teachers and definitely my students.
And so I wrote this book to get it out there about implementation science and how it can work in education.
And I, I think it can really help us.
We're starting new things all the time, right?
So let's follow the science to so we can be successful.
Yeah.
So give us a, a short overview of what implementation science means for those who don't know.
Sure.
So it's just really a system and how to apply research, uh, and innovation in our, in our world.
Um, implementation science is, is including a, a shared vision.
It's getting a team together.
It, um, it really focuses on how to implement.
Rather than what to implement.
So that's what, when we talk today, it'll be more about how people can actually use this.
It's, it's like, I'd say in my book, it's not rocket science, but it is science and so let's, let's use it.
Yeah, so,
Yeah.
So,
uh,
let me describe a
a couple situations
that I've been working with people on recently and, uh, get your thoughts on it.
So, um, first is a principal of a, uh, small Christian private school, um, who is looking for a way to start implementing.
A, a vision and some standards for the school.
And the second one is a principal who is at a public school, but working on helping her teachers regulate more effectively because they are dysregulated and dysregulated Teachers have a hard time.
Helping dysregulated kids.
So when, when the teachers are regulated, it's much easier for them to help regulate the kids.
So using those two ideas kind of as a framework, let's talk about how they should go about, uh, putting things into place so that they can actually have the success that they're looking for.
Okay, sounds good.
Let me give you an overview of the scale model that I developed from implementation science.
So s in scale is set the vision and the team.
Um, so we'll talk more about that in a minute.
Uh, C is create the script, create the plan that you're gonna, how you're gonna develop this.
The A is act and communicate.
L is learn, listen, and linger.
And then E is empower and elevate.
I mean, and we need to do all we can do to support the people doing the implementation.
And in our world, that's usually the teachers, right?
And so I think that's both of those will fit those, um, scenarios that you talked about, um, in your first, uh, scenario with your private school principal and his, um.
Standards and no vision for standards.
So he probably has an idea of what he wants to see, but he can't do it alone.
No principal can do their work alone and really make it successful and sustainable.
And so my suggestion to him is to get a team together and develop a shared vision together.
He can lead that.
Of course, he has an idea, but listen to what other people have to say.
And create that implementation team who can really guide the way, and not only do you get better ideas, of course, through collaboration, you also get that buy-in because when people have a say and have a stake, they're gonna have more of a buy-in.
So going through and making sure that you have people on that team who.
Definitely know what they're talking about, who are supportive, who are influential on your campus are really important.
And it's not just the team you have to meet throughout the process, throughout the school year.
And you know, sometimes this takes even longer than one year, right?
Sometimes we don't give, uh, enough time to our initiatives.
Well, and to that point real quick, the, the time thing does take a, it does take a lot of time.
That is for sure.
and so you have to readjust your expectations of what success looks like.
That success is not having it perfect, but success is having a thing completed or a change made or something like that.
Do you wanna talk about that a little bit more?
Well, that's a, it's a great point.
Absolutely, because we have a vision and we think that we can make it happen in a school year.
Well, we, we can't always do that, but as you go through the scale process, you tweak what you're doing.
You, you might have this vision and you might think, oh, we'll do it in a year, but as you're going through the process, you're going to evaluate it as you go.
You're gonna keep getting input from.
All the people who are involved and you're gonna adjust as you go through.
That's that learn, listen, and linger phase.
Wait for a minute.
Don't just act you.
We have to hold on.
We have to pause.
We have to take a minute and listen to how it's going, see how it's going, and listen to the people who are actually doing the work.
And then make some educated decisions, not just gut decisions.
Yeah.
Will you talk about that a little bit more?
Uh, educated versus gut decisions and.
reason why I ask this specifically is that there are some times where you have to make gut decisions because the correct answer is unknown.
And other times where there is information and there is, uh, experience and data, that does tell clearly what, what should be going on.
So, uh, there, there is a difference.
Can you talk a little bit more about educated versus, um, a gut decision?
Right.
Uh, and you're exactly right.
Sometimes principals have to make decisions in the moment, and that happens lord a lot, e every day, right?
But decisions for long-term, um, impact, like an initiative that you have, really, you can take your time.
You don't have to make a decision right now about what you're gonna do.
So listening to the people around you, like I, like I said, um.
Watching what's going on, not just asking teachers, which is what we need to do more of.
Also asking students, also asking parents and who else is involved in in this, but getting their voice in the process so that you can make better decisions for that sustainability and long-term impact that we want.
Yeah.
So I want to go back a little bit to, uh, the, the essence scale, which has set the vision and team with clarity and purpose and.
Um, one of the, the challenges that people hear or that people see when they hear somebody say, get people's input, is that those people then determine the vision and the way that I approach it, and I want your feedback on this, even if you disagree, is that it's your responsibility as the principal to set the vision for your school.
That if you're part of a bigger organization, that that at least aligns a little bit with what they're doing, but is not the exact same thing, because if it is, you're pretty much not needed to set a vision.
So, so you have to, uh, you have to be the one to set the vision and, and if you're not capable or able to do that, then it is going to be everybody else running the show, not you as the leader and your role as the leader.
Is not, is not really necessary.
How would you respond to that?
So I would say yes, the leader definitely needs to have a vision and set that main vision.
But again, principals can't do everything themselves.
If they have this vision that may be very.
Very good, very thoughtful, but if you can't get people to get behind it and to understand what you're saying and what your vision is, so it's, it's not gonna come to fruition.
You're not gonna see the results of that vision.
Right.
So while a principal can set it for sure, they can't do it alone and they have to have other people.
Not getting their input onto how we can make it happen.
I guess that's really what, how can we make this happen?
Not necessarily the vision, but how are we gonna do this?
That needs to be collaborative.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so there, there is a difference between setting the vision and being collaborative and achieving the vision.
Yes.
if, if you
don't.
the vision and you let other people do that, then you're missing out on one of the key things that you have as your purpose.
And you're giving the, the authority over to other people who don't have a holistic view, to make that decision, which can be a problem as well.
And those are, those are little things that need to, need to be fixed.
So what would you say to my principal who's working on his, uh.
Is, uh, adopting standards.
What, what does his v vision need to encompass and what can be delegated out to the, to the team and the committee?
So he needs to know what he wants, right?
Coming in, this is what we want and this is what, how we wanna be.
This is, these are the standards that we want and have that already in place.
The team and the role of the team.
And that's why it's so important to get the right people on the team.
Right.
Um, is because they are going to have a lot of say.
Leaders, principals are giving some of this to people to make it collaborative and saying, what, how can we do this?
What are some ways that we can do this?
And really listening to what they have to say.
Uh, he or she may have some very different ideas.
And that's why you have that team.
That's why you meet regularly with new data all the time and figure out how we're gonna make this happen.
And is this working or is this not working?
You don't wait until the end of the year to see you meet along the way.
Engage that with the people on the team who are doing the work.
And, and to that point, one of the things that I always say is, what's the smallest possible action you can implement that will have the biggest possible effect?
And so
Right.
taking action and you do those, things, those activities, those whatever, to make something happen.
And then you review as soon as possible how they worked.
And so.
If it is, uh, in the case of regulating teachers like you implement some sort of thing, you and I talked about the saboteurs and, and doing PQ reps, uh, during the day to help people be regulated.
That would be one of those little things that you do and then you see how it's working.
Mm-hmm.
working and getting us what we want?
Our teachers becoming more regulated or are they still feeling super stressed?
And if it's not working, let's adjust what we're doing, uh, to make the change.
But the key to me.
Is starting really small and not making it some big thing, like we're not gonna redo the schedule to, to fit this, um, in our, as our first act.
And, and what I would say is before a schedule change happens, you have to feel the hurt from how the schedule is currently not meeting the needs you have.
And then make a change when people are actually asking for it rather than doing the change, hoping that people catch the vision because the change happens.
Right.
And that, um, is a great segue to the c in scale and that's creating the plan.
So you develop a plan with the team.
You, you might have a, as principal, you might have a good idea going into it, what you wanna do, get input before you implement that plan, see what the other people's thoughts on how that goes.
So like you said, the smaller, um, start with the smallest possible action.
We, and we want it to align with what we're already doing as much as we can.
Right.
We don't need one more thing.
Right?
How many times have teachers said, oh my gosh, this is one more thing.
We don't need that.
So yes, it has to come.
Ideally, it comes from a need that they have on the campus for sure, and they want this change.
Absolutely.
that is really key.
And so my advice to, uh, this principal, uh, with the, uh, standards was out what you really want every single kid in your school to be able to do.
By the time they graduate from your school and, and then backwards plan from that for each grade and each content area, what that actually looks like and if they have any impact on that at all.
Let's say for example, you want everybody to.
Be proficient in algebra that may or may not have much to
To do
with the, uh, English class or the PE class, and so they may not have a role in that.
But if that's really your, your vision and your goal, then they probably should be able to find a way to incorporate some sort of algebraic thinking into whatever it is that you're, that they're doing.
Right.
Comments on that.
Well, the teachers are the, the people who best know how to do that, right?
So that the next sta the next, um, stage in this is act and communicate.
So yeah, you create that plan.
And, and you might not have a PE teacher in that implementation team with your example of algebra, but when you communicate it to everyone, you ask them, how can you help us?
How can you help our kids?
How can you help this initiative?
And normally they're gonna come up with a way to do that.
And if they don't, you can help them.
If we can give teachers voice in how this is gonna happen, it is going to happen a lot more organically and probably better than we even imagined it would happen.
A really simple thing on that regard is, let's say you want everybody to read, um, AKIs, crime and Punishment, one of my favorite novels.
And, and so you want that to happen by the time they, you know, graduate from the school.
So let's say this is a high school, so by 11th grade, everybody's gonna read.
Novel.
And not only are they gonna read it, but they're gonna understand it.
So then in the lower grades, what can you do to create and, and give background knowledge to that?
And then, and then how do you figure out what's not working?
Or if people are getting burned out?
So the learn, listen, and linger phase.
The next one is really about going into classrooms.
As often as possible.
You know, some, some schools and districts have a quota, for lack of a better word, but you get into those classrooms and you listen.
You learn from the teachers what's going on.
You listen to kids, you listen to, um, the teachers for sure, and you linger.
You wait and you pause and you see and get a better idea of what's really happening rather than, than initial.
Um, oh, this is happening.
Well, we may or may not know, right?
We think we know.
We may or may not know.
So giving it a little bit of time to, to make sure that we see the full picture.
We're not just seeing snippets of that.
And then that's where that implementation team comes in so handy, because you're meeting on a regular basis, so you come back to the team.
Look, this doesn't seem to be going well.
In this situation, what do we need to do?
Do we need to re rearrange some things?
You know, what do we need to do?
And that is more of a collaborative discussion so that we, this is still our standard, this is still our vision.
How do we tweak the steps on the way to get there?
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, you know, one of the other aspects to that is, um, is seeing what the kids are experiencing and what their life is like as they go through this.
Um, and so I've long been an advocate of shadowing a student and how important that is to follow a student around and be a student yourself.
And see what it's like from their eyes.
When you go in and observe the teachers, you often have this, uh, perspective of a, of another adult in the classroom.
A judging, for lack of a better word, the, uh, the teaching that's going on and the interactions that are going on.
But if you do that from the perspective of student, it changes things because you see things differently and you experience things differently, which is an incredibly powerful thing for everybody involved and.
And what's so powerful about that is that you see what it's like for them, the students to go through what it is that, that you're going through.
And I remember the first time I, I did a shadow a student, I was following a student who was really struggling in math, and I saw how she spent maybe five minutes out of a 45 minute period engaged in math work, I could not believe how much wasted time
There was
I could
I.
believe how bored she looked and felt.
And that immediately led into us adjusting how we did, uh, math intervention support the following year, so that this girl, specifically that I was shadowing, had the opportunity to greatly improve her math skills immediately the following year of what was needed that.
She was behind already and it was just too much and so challenging for her personally to to be successful in doing that.
I mean, if you can shadow a student, I, I know I have done that in the past, and you do get so much good information from it that you.
We think as, as school leaders, we can go into a room and see what's really going on in 10, 15 minutes.
Well, shadowing a student gives you a whole different perspective.
So if you, if you can't do that or, or.
Haven't done that.
Another way is to also getting um, students to, and just ask them, get, get a little group together and just say, Hey, how's this going?
Tell me about this.
And they'll tell you.
They will definitely tell you.
Um, which is great.
Yeah.
So let's talk about how you make this happen beyond just the one year because.
This, this idea of regulating teachers and um, and, and adopting standards must take more than a year.
You can't do it in a short amount of time because it's changing so much.
So how do you help it last, uh, for longer than that, even if you are not going to be there?
And that's really the key to me, is how do you make this vision, the school's vision and not just your vision.
Right.
So the implementation team is one way that that happens because you have people on the team who are bought in, who see the vision, who, who agree with it, who wanna ha make it happen.
And so you have, you might be gone, but that whole team is still there usually, and they can.
Help move that along.
Um, we, we haven't talked, talked about the empower and elevate stage.
When you empower teachers and celebrate the things that they do, elevate what they're doing so that they recognize, oh, this works, this, what I'm doing is working makes a huge difference.
Um, another part of this scale model is the leadership piece, which we are not even gonna get into today.
But when we teach teachers how to be leaders.
They're gonna take that and run with it.
We, we, we have amazing teachers and so often we have teachers who don't wanna leave the classroom so they don't get a lot of leadership training.
Um, building their leadership in this implementation team can help continue and sustain whatever initiative you, you are having in the year.
Yeah, it that, that's very powerful.
I've got a lot to say about that.
But let me ask you first, what, what does that look like to teach a teacher to be a leader and what, what do they need to be able to do that?
Um, well, they have to have a growth mindset.
They have to have a mindset that they want to be a leader in the school.
Um, and so that's number one.
I, I, I wish I knew how you changed mindset and I,
Yeah.
I don't, I don't know how yet.
Um, but, but showing them what the skills are and what I did is I looked through 14 different leadership, um, um.
Scales.
Some were business, some were, uh, education and looked at it from the lens of implementation and we didn't have anything out there that really met the implementation guidelines for leadership.
And so that's what developing the scale model, it really hits.
Good, uh, leadership skills that align well to implementation and change.
Um, and so letting teachers see and teaching them, this is a leadership skill.
This is what I need you to do, this is what it looks like.
And giving them time to absorb that and practice that.
Because we know teachers make the biggest difference in schools.
They make the biggest difference with kids, and they're more likely gonna stay at that school than a leader is.
So they're the ones who can make the biggest difference.
Uh, exactly.
And on the subject of Changing Mindsets, that is called Vertical Development, and Ryan Godson has done a lot of work on that.
And if you, uh, go back through Transformative principle to episode 394, which is in the show notes, uh, vertical Development with Ryan Godson, that is a powerful, powerful way to actually make that happen because it is possible.
Um, but like you said, uh, people, people have to be willing to have a growth mindset and see that they can.
The other thing I would add, um, and you, you gave a great response there.
The other thing I would add is that they need permission.
They need to know that it's okay for them to, be leaders, even though their job title says teacher.
And, and what I often use to help teachers understand this is that you are already a leader because you are leading.
However many students you teach.
And so it is important for you to also be a teacher leader and a peer leader leading those around you as well.
And they need to have permission to do that.
They actually don't need to 'cause they can just do it.
But a lot of people need the permission themselves because they didn't believe that they could do it in the past.
And so that's a, an important part that they need to, to have permission, uh, from you to be a leader and.
Uh, and you know, like I said, they don't actually need it, but a lot of people think they do.
So give it to 'em because they, they
Yeah, absolutely.
And your school is only gonna benefit from that, right?
Everybody moving in the same direction and with a stronger momentum for your vision.
That's powerful.
Yeah, it really is.
So we've talked about a lot of things here today, Kelly, but the, my last question is, what is one thing from all that we've talked about that a principal can do this week to be a Transformative Principal like you?
Where do they start?
Um, I think they start listening to their teachers more and, and we have great leaders who do that already.
Um, but listen to what your good teachers are saying and, um, act, make decisions based on your good teachers.
Um, that's what, um, Todd Whitaker says to do that absolutely make your decisions based on your good teachers, but you have to listen to what they have to say and make sure that you know what they're really saying.
Which, which opens up a whole nother question of what makes a good teacher.
And you already know that if you're listening, you already know who your good teachers are and the ones that you're willing to listen to.
You probably need to do a little work yourself to listen to everybody, even the complainers or the quote unquote bad teachers, and see and see what you need to listen to.
Just because they say something doesn't mean that you have to listen to that particular thing.
But there are other things that they do say, and we could talk for hours probably about that, but that's not today.
So thank you so much, Kelly, for being part of Transformative principle.
Again, the book is Leading Change that Lasts.
You can get it, uh, anywhere you get books, um, but uh, there's a link to it in the show notes at Transformative principle.org.
Kelly, thank you so much for being part of Transformative principle today.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Happy to be here.
Is there any other way that you want people to get in touch with you?
Um, I have a website, enlightening leadership.com.
Um, email me.
Um.
I have a Facebook group that I would love for more people to engage with.
Uh, it's it's enlightening leadership.
So yeah, anytime we can get together and have these kinds of discussions, we get better for our kids, for our teachers, for our schools, for public and private education.
Yeah.
and I've, I've got links to your website, to your book, and to your Facebook group at Transformative principle.org.
So everybody go check that out.
Thanks again for being part of this, Kelly.
Have a wonderful day.
Thank you.
You too.