WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.072 --> 00:00:17.132 Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:17.642 --> 00:00:19.142 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.142 --> 00:00:21.842 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:21.842 --> 00:00:21.902 Okay. 00:00:35.452 --> 00:00:37.222 Welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:00:37.222 --> 00:00:38.512 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:38.512 --> 00:00:41.392 You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones. 00:00:41.422 --> 00:00:48.532 Even though I will admit, by the way, I am taking a break from social media for, uh, the next couple weeks. 00:00:48.532 --> 00:00:54.292 It's been going on for almost a month, and we'll continue until my birthday at the end of October. 00:00:54.667 --> 00:00:57.067 And then I don't know if I'll sign back in or not. 00:00:57.127 --> 00:00:58.717 That's always the question. 00:00:58.777 --> 00:01:05.377 But when I find myself getting sucked into all the drama, then I like to take a step back and say, who's in control here? 00:01:05.377 --> 00:01:06.577 Me or the drama. 00:01:06.757 --> 00:01:08.977 And sometimes the drama is, but this time. 00:01:09.382 --> 00:01:12.322 I was in control, so I took a little break Today. 00:01:12.322 --> 00:01:15.412 I am excited to have on the program Dr. Kelly Hastings. 00:01:15.742 --> 00:01:22.042 She was, she interviewed me on the show, uh, almost a year ago to talk about saboteurs. 00:01:22.042 --> 00:01:25.642 You can find a link to that in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org. 00:01:26.512 --> 00:01:31.852 But, uh, she is awesome and I thought it was a good time to get her back on the show. 00:01:31.852 --> 00:01:33.382 She's been, uh. 00:01:34.417 --> 00:01:42.937 Middle school principal as well as many other things, and has been in education for over 28 years, which is not an insignificant amount of time. 00:01:43.897 --> 00:01:50.347 she is married in the proud mother of four children and grandmother to four grandchildren ranging in age from eight to 16. 00:01:50.467 --> 00:01:56.647 They live nearby and she delights in cheering them on their many activities from baseball and dance to TaeKwonDo and more. 00:01:57.427 --> 00:01:59.467 Kelly, welcome to Transformative Principles. 00:01:59.467 --> 00:02:00.667 So great to have you here. 00:02:01.357 --> 00:02:02.137 Thank you. 00:02:02.137 --> 00:02:03.157 It's great to be here. 00:02:03.157 --> 00:02:03.577 Thanks. 00:02:04.432 --> 00:02:05.272 Oh my pleasure. 00:02:05.272 --> 00:02:13.162 Now we're gonna talk about your book Leading Change that Lasts, which people can get a copy of by going to the show notes at Transformative principle.org. 00:02:13.162 --> 00:02:22.342 The book is Leading Change that Lasts, I thought the best way to talk about this would be to share some examples of how people could do things. 00:02:22.342 --> 00:02:25.372 So tell us first what leading change that lasts is all about. 00:02:26.942 --> 00:02:28.432 So the book was written. 00:02:28.462 --> 00:02:40.822 I have a lot of reflection and um, I made a lot of mistakes as a middle school principal, and so after I retired from public education, I heard about implementation science. 00:02:41.102 --> 00:02:44.972 And thought, where has this been on my career? 00:02:45.002 --> 00:02:51.692 Because it would've made a huge difference, not only for me as a leader, but for my teachers and definitely my students. 00:02:51.812 --> 00:02:57.872 And so I wrote this book to get it out there about implementation science and how it can work in education. 00:02:58.382 --> 00:03:00.422 And I, I think it can really help us. 00:03:00.422 --> 00:03:02.552 We're starting new things all the time, right? 00:03:02.822 --> 00:03:06.842 So let's follow the science to so we can be successful. 00:03:07.687 --> 00:03:07.987 Yeah. 00:03:07.987 --> 00:03:13.292 So give us a, a short overview of what implementation science means for those who don't know. 00:03:14.152 --> 00:03:14.602 Sure. 00:03:14.842 --> 00:03:21.622 So it's just really a system and how to apply research, uh, and innovation in our, in our world. 00:03:21.682 --> 00:03:26.512 Um, implementation science is, is including a, a shared vision. 00:03:26.512 --> 00:03:28.072 It's getting a team together. 00:03:28.372 --> 00:03:31.282 It, um, it really focuses on how to implement. 00:03:31.612 --> 00:03:33.232 Rather than what to implement. 00:03:33.322 --> 00:03:38.362 So that's what, when we talk today, it'll be more about how people can actually use this. 00:03:38.512 --> 00:03:45.982 It's, it's like, I'd say in my book, it's not rocket science, but it is science and so let's, let's use it. 00:03:46.807 --> 00:03:46.927 Yeah, so, 00:03:47.047 --> 00:03:47.317 Yeah. 00:03:47.317 --> 00:03:47.827 So, 00:03:48.152 --> 00:03:48.372 uh, 00:03:48.427 --> 00:03:49.417 let me describe a 00:03:49.732 --> 00:03:50.972 a couple situations 00:03:51.007 --> 00:03:56.047 that I've been working with people on recently and, uh, get your thoughts on it. 00:03:56.047 --> 00:04:06.367 So, um, first is a principal of a, uh, small Christian private school, um, who is looking for a way to start implementing. 00:04:06.772 --> 00:04:10.252 A, a vision and some standards for the school. 00:04:10.642 --> 00:04:23.152 And the second one is a principal who is at a public school, but working on helping her teachers regulate more effectively because they are dysregulated and dysregulated Teachers have a hard time. 00:04:24.202 --> 00:04:25.972 Helping dysregulated kids. 00:04:25.972 --> 00:04:30.622 So when, when the teachers are regulated, it's much easier for them to help regulate the kids. 00:04:30.622 --> 00:04:42.592 So using those two ideas kind of as a framework, let's talk about how they should go about, uh, putting things into place so that they can actually have the success that they're looking for. 00:04:43.337 --> 00:04:44.657 Okay, sounds good. 00:04:44.987 --> 00:04:49.787 Let me give you an overview of the scale model that I developed from implementation science. 00:04:50.147 --> 00:04:53.867 So s in scale is set the vision and the team. 00:04:54.467 --> 00:04:56.957 Um, so we'll talk more about that in a minute. 00:04:57.257 --> 00:05:03.467 Uh, C is create the script, create the plan that you're gonna, how you're gonna develop this. 00:05:03.737 --> 00:05:06.257 The A is act and communicate. 00:05:06.887 --> 00:05:09.382 L is learn, listen, and linger. 00:05:10.432 --> 00:05:12.832 And then E is empower and elevate. 00:05:13.252 --> 00:05:17.902 I mean, and we need to do all we can do to support the people doing the implementation. 00:05:17.902 --> 00:05:20.722 And in our world, that's usually the teachers, right? 00:05:21.172 --> 00:05:35.062 And so I think that's both of those will fit those, um, scenarios that you talked about, um, in your first, uh, scenario with your private school principal and his, um. 00:05:35.497 --> 00:05:38.497 Standards and no vision for standards. 00:05:38.797 --> 00:05:45.217 So he probably has an idea of what he wants to see, but he can't do it alone. 00:05:45.277 --> 00:05:50.917 No principal can do their work alone and really make it successful and sustainable. 00:05:51.007 --> 00:05:58.597 And so my suggestion to him is to get a team together and develop a shared vision together. 00:05:58.627 --> 00:05:59.557 He can lead that. 00:05:59.557 --> 00:06:04.027 Of course, he has an idea, but listen to what other people have to say. 00:06:04.957 --> 00:06:21.007 And create that implementation team who can really guide the way, and not only do you get better ideas, of course, through collaboration, you also get that buy-in because when people have a say and have a stake, they're gonna have more of a buy-in. 00:06:21.337 --> 00:06:25.597 So going through and making sure that you have people on that team who. 00:06:26.347 --> 00:06:32.887 Definitely know what they're talking about, who are supportive, who are influential on your campus are really important. 00:06:33.397 --> 00:06:38.737 And it's not just the team you have to meet throughout the process, throughout the school year. 00:06:38.767 --> 00:06:42.277 And you know, sometimes this takes even longer than one year, right? 00:06:42.577 --> 00:06:48.007 Sometimes we don't give, uh, enough time to our initiatives. 00:06:48.832 --> 00:06:54.742 Well, and to that point real quick, the, the time thing does take a, it does take a lot of time. 00:06:54.742 --> 00:06:55.642 That is for sure. 00:06:56.602 --> 00:07:01.492 and so you have to readjust your expectations of what success looks like. 00:07:01.762 --> 00:07:10.552 That success is not having it perfect, but success is having a thing completed or a change made or something like that. 00:07:10.552 --> 00:07:12.202 Do you wanna talk about that a little bit more? 00:07:13.557 --> 00:07:15.127 Well, that's a, it's a great point. 00:07:15.127 --> 00:07:20.257 Absolutely, because we have a vision and we think that we can make it happen in a school year. 00:07:20.497 --> 00:07:26.797 Well, we, we can't always do that, but as you go through the scale process, you tweak what you're doing. 00:07:27.067 --> 00:07:35.257 You, you might have this vision and you might think, oh, we'll do it in a year, but as you're going through the process, you're going to evaluate it as you go. 00:07:35.257 --> 00:07:37.657 You're gonna keep getting input from. 00:07:38.362 --> 00:07:43.732 All the people who are involved and you're gonna adjust as you go through. 00:07:43.972 --> 00:07:46.222 That's that learn, listen, and linger phase. 00:07:46.492 --> 00:07:47.662 Wait for a minute. 00:07:47.662 --> 00:07:49.162 Don't just act you. 00:07:49.162 --> 00:07:50.302 We have to hold on. 00:07:50.302 --> 00:07:51.442 We have to pause. 00:07:51.652 --> 00:07:59.992 We have to take a minute and listen to how it's going, see how it's going, and listen to the people who are actually doing the work. 00:08:00.262 --> 00:08:04.252 And then make some educated decisions, not just gut decisions. 00:08:06.232 --> 00:08:06.652 Yeah. 00:08:06.682 --> 00:08:08.602 Will you talk about that a little bit more? 00:08:08.662 --> 00:08:11.092 Uh, educated versus gut decisions and. 00:08:11.887 --> 00:08:19.987 reason why I ask this specifically is that there are some times where you have to make gut decisions because the correct answer is unknown. 00:08:20.257 --> 00:08:29.737 And other times where there is information and there is, uh, experience and data, that does tell clearly what, what should be going on. 00:08:29.737 --> 00:08:32.197 So, uh, there, there is a difference. 00:08:32.197 --> 00:08:36.157 Can you talk a little bit more about educated versus, um, a gut decision? 00:08:36.397 --> 00:08:36.967 Right. 00:08:37.057 --> 00:08:38.407 Uh, and you're exactly right. 00:08:38.407 --> 00:08:44.677 Sometimes principals have to make decisions in the moment, and that happens lord a lot, e every day, right? 00:08:44.977 --> 00:08:52.087 But decisions for long-term, um, impact, like an initiative that you have, really, you can take your time. 00:08:52.117 --> 00:08:55.927 You don't have to make a decision right now about what you're gonna do. 00:08:56.317 --> 00:09:00.877 So listening to the people around you, like I, like I said, um. 00:09:01.522 --> 00:09:07.672 Watching what's going on, not just asking teachers, which is what we need to do more of. 00:09:08.032 --> 00:09:22.607 Also asking students, also asking parents and who else is involved in in this, but getting their voice in the process so that you can make better decisions for that sustainability and long-term impact that we want. 00:09:24.502 --> 00:09:24.772 Yeah. 00:09:24.772 --> 00:09:32.272 So I want to go back a little bit to, uh, the, the essence scale, which has set the vision and team with clarity and purpose and. 00:09:33.232 --> 00:09:55.282 Um, one of the, the challenges that people hear or that people see when they hear somebody say, get people's input, is that those people then determine the vision and the way that I approach it, and I want your feedback on this, even if you disagree, is that it's your responsibility as the principal to set the vision for your school. 00:09:56.032 --> 00:10:09.382 That if you're part of a bigger organization, that that at least aligns a little bit with what they're doing, but is not the exact same thing, because if it is, you're pretty much not needed to set a vision. 00:10:09.412 --> 00:10:24.922 So, so you have to, uh, you have to be the one to set the vision and, and if you're not capable or able to do that, then it is going to be everybody else running the show, not you as the leader and your role as the leader. 00:10:25.312 --> 00:10:27.682 Is not, is not really necessary. 00:10:27.772 --> 00:10:29.092 How would you respond to that? 00:10:30.262 --> 00:10:35.692 So I would say yes, the leader definitely needs to have a vision and set that main vision. 00:10:35.992 --> 00:10:39.142 But again, principals can't do everything themselves. 00:10:39.172 --> 00:10:41.992 If they have this vision that may be very. 00:10:42.757 --> 00:10:54.037 Very good, very thoughtful, but if you can't get people to get behind it and to understand what you're saying and what your vision is, so it's, it's not gonna come to fruition. 00:10:54.037 --> 00:10:56.047 You're not gonna see the results of that vision. 00:10:56.047 --> 00:10:56.377 Right. 00:10:56.617 --> 00:11:03.577 So while a principal can set it for sure, they can't do it alone and they have to have other people. 00:11:03.997 --> 00:11:07.417 Not getting their input onto how we can make it happen. 00:11:07.537 --> 00:11:10.597 I guess that's really what, how can we make this happen? 00:11:10.597 --> 00:11:14.437 Not necessarily the vision, but how are we gonna do this? 00:11:14.527 --> 00:11:16.117 That needs to be collaborative. 00:11:16.267 --> 00:11:16.687 Mm-hmm. 00:11:17.422 --> 00:11:17.872 Yeah. 00:11:17.962 --> 00:11:24.442 And so there, there is a difference between setting the vision and being collaborative and achieving the vision. 00:11:24.877 --> 00:11:25.387 Yes. 00:11:25.417 --> 00:11:26.467 if, if you 00:11:26.837 --> 00:11:27.187 don't. 00:11:27.187 --> 00:11:35.287 the vision and you let other people do that, then you're missing out on one of the key things that you have as your purpose. 00:11:35.437 --> 00:11:46.147 And you're giving the, the authority over to other people who don't have a holistic view, to make that decision, which can be a problem as well. 00:11:46.147 --> 00:11:50.167 And those are, those are little things that need to, need to be fixed. 00:11:50.167 --> 00:11:54.097 So what would you say to my principal who's working on his, uh. 00:11:54.457 --> 00:11:56.707 Is, uh, adopting standards. 00:11:57.037 --> 00:12:03.882 What, what does his v vision need to encompass and what can be delegated out to the, to the team and the committee? 00:12:05.497 --> 00:12:08.467 So he needs to know what he wants, right? 00:12:08.497 --> 00:12:12.127 Coming in, this is what we want and this is what, how we wanna be. 00:12:12.127 --> 00:12:17.377 This is, these are the standards that we want and have that already in place. 00:12:17.827 --> 00:12:20.047 The team and the role of the team. 00:12:20.047 --> 00:12:23.557 And that's why it's so important to get the right people on the team. 00:12:23.587 --> 00:12:24.127 Right. 00:12:24.577 --> 00:12:28.537 Um, is because they are going to have a lot of say. 00:12:29.212 --> 00:12:36.742 Leaders, principals are giving some of this to people to make it collaborative and saying, what, how can we do this? 00:12:36.892 --> 00:12:38.662 What are some ways that we can do this? 00:12:38.872 --> 00:12:41.152 And really listening to what they have to say. 00:12:41.602 --> 00:12:44.752 Uh, he or she may have some very different ideas. 00:12:45.022 --> 00:12:47.062 And that's why you have that team. 00:12:47.062 --> 00:12:54.862 That's why you meet regularly with new data all the time and figure out how we're gonna make this happen. 00:12:55.072 --> 00:12:57.292 And is this working or is this not working? 00:12:57.592 --> 00:13:01.822 You don't wait until the end of the year to see you meet along the way. 00:13:02.332 --> 00:13:06.472 Engage that with the people on the team who are doing the work. 00:13:08.182 --> 00:13:17.632 And, and to that point, one of the things that I always say is, what's the smallest possible action you can implement that will have the biggest possible effect? 00:13:17.812 --> 00:13:18.472 And so 00:13:18.757 --> 00:13:19.087 Right. 00:13:19.372 --> 00:13:27.622 taking action and you do those, things, those activities, those whatever, to make something happen. 00:13:27.622 --> 00:13:31.372 And then you review as soon as possible how they worked. 00:13:31.492 --> 00:13:32.182 And so. 00:13:32.557 --> 00:13:43.747 If it is, uh, in the case of regulating teachers like you implement some sort of thing, you and I talked about the saboteurs and, and doing PQ reps, uh, during the day to help people be regulated. 00:13:44.377 --> 00:13:48.397 That would be one of those little things that you do and then you see how it's working. 00:13:48.652 --> 00:13:49.072 Mm-hmm. 00:13:49.087 --> 00:13:50.917 working and getting us what we want? 00:13:50.917 --> 00:13:54.997 Our teachers becoming more regulated or are they still feeling super stressed? 00:13:55.387 --> 00:13:59.647 And if it's not working, let's adjust what we're doing, uh, to make the change. 00:13:59.647 --> 00:14:00.697 But the key to me. 00:14:01.072 --> 00:14:10.702 Is starting really small and not making it some big thing, like we're not gonna redo the schedule to, to fit this, um, in our, as our first act. 00:14:11.182 --> 00:14:20.152 And, and what I would say is before a schedule change happens, you have to feel the hurt from how the schedule is currently not meeting the needs you have. 00:14:20.422 --> 00:14:29.842 And then make a change when people are actually asking for it rather than doing the change, hoping that people catch the vision because the change happens. 00:14:30.382 --> 00:14:30.772 Right. 00:14:31.402 --> 00:14:31.792 Right. 00:14:31.792 --> 00:14:36.442 And that, um, is a great segue to the c in scale and that's creating the plan. 00:14:36.842 --> 00:14:39.662 So you develop a plan with the team. 00:14:39.722 --> 00:14:50.882 You, you might have a, as principal, you might have a good idea going into it, what you wanna do, get input before you implement that plan, see what the other people's thoughts on how that goes. 00:14:50.882 --> 00:14:55.712 So like you said, the smaller, um, start with the smallest possible action. 00:14:56.012 --> 00:14:59.822 We, and we want it to align with what we're already doing as much as we can. 00:14:59.822 --> 00:15:00.092 Right. 00:15:00.622 --> 00:15:02.482 We don't need one more thing. 00:15:02.542 --> 00:15:02.872 Right? 00:15:02.872 --> 00:15:06.082 How many times have teachers said, oh my gosh, this is one more thing. 00:15:06.352 --> 00:15:07.402 We don't need that. 00:15:07.402 --> 00:15:09.082 So yes, it has to come. 00:15:09.082 --> 00:15:15.262 Ideally, it comes from a need that they have on the campus for sure, and they want this change. 00:15:16.702 --> 00:15:17.212 Absolutely. 00:15:17.662 --> 00:15:18.742 that is really key. 00:15:18.742 --> 00:15:29.992 And so my advice to, uh, this principal, uh, with the, uh, standards was out what you really want every single kid in your school to be able to do. 00:15:30.352 --> 00:15:42.412 By the time they graduate from your school and, and then backwards plan from that for each grade and each content area, what that actually looks like and if they have any impact on that at all. 00:15:42.802 --> 00:15:45.172 Let's say for example, you want everybody to. 00:15:45.532 --> 00:15:49.102 Be proficient in algebra that may or may not have much to 00:15:49.242 --> 00:15:49.582 To do 00:15:49.732 --> 00:15:56.542 with the, uh, English class or the PE class, and so they may not have a role in that. 00:15:56.632 --> 00:16:07.972 But if that's really your, your vision and your goal, then they probably should be able to find a way to incorporate some sort of algebraic thinking into whatever it is that you're, that they're doing. 00:16:08.707 --> 00:16:09.097 Right. 00:16:09.097 --> 00:16:10.327 Comments on that. 00:16:10.597 --> 00:16:14.077 Well, the teachers are the, the people who best know how to do that, right? 00:16:14.137 --> 00:16:19.387 So that the next sta the next, um, stage in this is act and communicate. 00:16:19.657 --> 00:16:21.637 So yeah, you create that plan. 00:16:22.267 --> 00:16:32.767 And, and you might not have a PE teacher in that implementation team with your example of algebra, but when you communicate it to everyone, you ask them, how can you help us? 00:16:32.917 --> 00:16:34.507 How can you help our kids? 00:16:34.687 --> 00:16:36.187 How can you help this initiative? 00:16:36.247 --> 00:16:39.487 And normally they're gonna come up with a way to do that. 00:16:39.727 --> 00:16:41.347 And if they don't, you can help them. 00:16:42.397 --> 00:16:51.642 If we can give teachers voice in how this is gonna happen, it is going to happen a lot more organically and probably better than we even imagined it would happen. 00:16:54.412 --> 00:17:03.442 A really simple thing on that regard is, let's say you want everybody to read, um, AKIs, crime and Punishment, one of my favorite novels. 00:17:03.802 --> 00:17:08.992 And, and so you want that to happen by the time they, you know, graduate from the school. 00:17:08.992 --> 00:17:12.952 So let's say this is a high school, so by 11th grade, everybody's gonna read. 00:17:13.927 --> 00:17:14.287 Novel. 00:17:14.287 --> 00:17:16.717 And not only are they gonna read it, but they're gonna understand it. 00:17:17.077 --> 00:17:23.887 So then in the lower grades, what can you do to create and, and give background knowledge to that? 00:17:24.277 --> 00:17:27.937 And then, and then how do you figure out what's not working? 00:17:27.937 --> 00:17:29.557 Or if people are getting burned out? 00:17:30.772 --> 00:17:33.352 So the learn, listen, and linger phase. 00:17:33.412 --> 00:17:36.322 The next one is really about going into classrooms. 00:17:36.842 --> 00:17:38.282 As often as possible. 00:17:38.522 --> 00:17:45.092 You know, some, some schools and districts have a quota, for lack of a better word, but you get into those classrooms and you listen. 00:17:45.092 --> 00:17:47.702 You learn from the teachers what's going on. 00:17:47.942 --> 00:17:54.272 You listen to kids, you listen to, um, the teachers for sure, and you linger. 00:17:54.272 --> 00:18:01.682 You wait and you pause and you see and get a better idea of what's really happening rather than, than initial. 00:18:02.672 --> 00:18:04.412 Um, oh, this is happening. 00:18:04.412 --> 00:18:06.542 Well, we may or may not know, right? 00:18:06.542 --> 00:18:07.622 We think we know. 00:18:07.982 --> 00:18:09.302 We may or may not know. 00:18:09.302 --> 00:18:16.412 So giving it a little bit of time to, to make sure that we see the full picture. 00:18:16.622 --> 00:18:18.872 We're not just seeing snippets of that. 00:18:19.322 --> 00:18:26.882 And then that's where that implementation team comes in so handy, because you're meeting on a regular basis, so you come back to the team. 00:18:27.122 --> 00:18:29.372 Look, this doesn't seem to be going well. 00:18:29.867 --> 00:18:32.327 In this situation, what do we need to do? 00:18:32.357 --> 00:18:35.477 Do we need to re rearrange some things? 00:18:35.747 --> 00:18:37.157 You know, what do we need to do? 00:18:37.247 --> 00:18:45.677 And that is more of a collaborative discussion so that we, this is still our standard, this is still our vision. 00:18:46.427 --> 00:18:48.802 How do we tweak the steps on the way to get there? 00:18:49.957 --> 00:18:51.547 Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:51.997 --> 00:19:01.477 Uh, you know, one of the other aspects to that is, um, is seeing what the kids are experiencing and what their life is like as they go through this. 00:19:01.567 --> 00:19:09.367 Um, and so I've long been an advocate of shadowing a student and how important that is to follow a student around and be a student yourself. 00:19:09.737 --> 00:19:11.447 And see what it's like from their eyes. 00:19:11.447 --> 00:19:19.397 When you go in and observe the teachers, you often have this, uh, perspective of a, of another adult in the classroom. 00:19:19.787 --> 00:19:25.967 A judging, for lack of a better word, the, uh, the teaching that's going on and the interactions that are going on. 00:19:26.327 --> 00:19:37.757 But if you do that from the perspective of student, it changes things because you see things differently and you experience things differently, which is an incredibly powerful thing for everybody involved and. 00:19:38.402 --> 00:19:46.472 And what's so powerful about that is that you see what it's like for them, the students to go through what it is that, that you're going through. 00:19:46.892 --> 00:20:04.952 And I remember the first time I, I did a shadow a student, I was following a student who was really struggling in math, and I saw how she spent maybe five minutes out of a 45 minute period engaged in math work, I could not believe how much wasted time 00:20:05.072 --> 00:20:05.582 There was 00:20:05.837 --> 00:20:06.167 I could 00:20:06.222 --> 00:20:06.342 I. 00:20:06.407 --> 00:20:08.987 believe how bored she looked and felt. 00:20:09.317 --> 00:20:29.897 And that immediately led into us adjusting how we did, uh, math intervention support the following year, so that this girl, specifically that I was shadowing, had the opportunity to greatly improve her math skills immediately the following year of what was needed that. 00:20:30.362 --> 00:20:37.847 She was behind already and it was just too much and so challenging for her personally to to be successful in doing that. 00:20:40.097 --> 00:20:47.522 I mean, if you can shadow a student, I, I know I have done that in the past, and you do get so much good information from it that you. 00:20:48.692 --> 00:20:54.152 We think as, as school leaders, we can go into a room and see what's really going on in 10, 15 minutes. 00:20:54.452 --> 00:20:58.442 Well, shadowing a student gives you a whole different perspective. 00:20:58.742 --> 00:21:00.507 So if you, if you can't do that or, or. 00:21:01.607 --> 00:21:02.567 Haven't done that. 00:21:02.747 --> 00:21:11.327 Another way is to also getting um, students to, and just ask them, get, get a little group together and just say, Hey, how's this going? 00:21:11.327 --> 00:21:12.377 Tell me about this. 00:21:12.437 --> 00:21:14.057 And they'll tell you. 00:21:15.437 --> 00:21:17.027 They will definitely tell you. 00:21:17.357 --> 00:21:18.442 Um, which is great. 00:21:20.767 --> 00:21:20.887 Yeah. 00:21:20.887 --> 00:21:26.197 So let's talk about how you make this happen beyond just the one year because. 00:21:27.227 --> 00:21:37.097 This, this idea of regulating teachers and um, and, and adopting standards must take more than a year. 00:21:37.097 --> 00:21:41.027 You can't do it in a short amount of time because it's changing so much. 00:21:41.027 --> 00:21:47.267 So how do you help it last, uh, for longer than that, even if you are not going to be there? 00:21:47.267 --> 00:21:52.877 And that's really the key to me, is how do you make this vision, the school's vision and not just your vision. 00:21:53.662 --> 00:21:54.002 Right. 00:21:54.452 --> 00:22:05.222 So the implementation team is one way that that happens because you have people on the team who are bought in, who see the vision, who, who agree with it, who wanna ha make it happen. 00:22:05.552 --> 00:22:11.972 And so you have, you might be gone, but that whole team is still there usually, and they can. 00:22:12.272 --> 00:22:13.652 Help move that along. 00:22:14.102 --> 00:22:18.512 Um, we, we haven't talked, talked about the empower and elevate stage. 00:22:18.722 --> 00:22:31.082 When you empower teachers and celebrate the things that they do, elevate what they're doing so that they recognize, oh, this works, this, what I'm doing is working makes a huge difference. 00:22:31.502 --> 00:22:36.932 Um, another part of this scale model is the leadership piece, which we are not even gonna get into today. 00:22:37.292 --> 00:22:40.562 But when we teach teachers how to be leaders. 00:22:41.132 --> 00:22:42.992 They're gonna take that and run with it. 00:22:43.052 --> 00:22:53.102 We, we, we have amazing teachers and so often we have teachers who don't wanna leave the classroom so they don't get a lot of leadership training. 00:22:53.432 --> 00:23:05.282 Um, building their leadership in this implementation team can help continue and sustain whatever initiative you, you are having in the year. 00:23:06.017 --> 00:23:08.027 Yeah, it that, that's very powerful. 00:23:08.027 --> 00:23:09.347 I've got a lot to say about that. 00:23:09.347 --> 00:23:17.597 But let me ask you first, what, what does that look like to teach a teacher to be a leader and what, what do they need to be able to do that? 00:23:19.202 --> 00:23:21.872 Um, well, they have to have a growth mindset. 00:23:21.872 --> 00:23:25.502 They have to have a mindset that they want to be a leader in the school. 00:23:25.922 --> 00:23:28.412 Um, and so that's number one. 00:23:28.412 --> 00:23:31.227 I, I, I wish I knew how you changed mindset and I, 00:23:31.347 --> 00:23:31.637 Yeah. 00:23:31.682 --> 00:23:33.362 I don't, I don't know how yet. 00:23:33.692 --> 00:23:44.012 Um, but, but showing them what the skills are and what I did is I looked through 14 different leadership, um, um. 00:23:45.362 --> 00:23:46.172 Scales. 00:23:46.622 --> 00:24:00.782 Some were business, some were, uh, education and looked at it from the lens of implementation and we didn't have anything out there that really met the implementation guidelines for leadership. 00:24:00.872 --> 00:24:04.802 And so that's what developing the scale model, it really hits. 00:24:05.207 --> 00:24:10.577 Good, uh, leadership skills that align well to implementation and change. 00:24:10.967 --> 00:24:15.317 Um, and so letting teachers see and teaching them, this is a leadership skill. 00:24:15.317 --> 00:24:18.887 This is what I need you to do, this is what it looks like. 00:24:19.247 --> 00:24:23.447 And giving them time to absorb that and practice that. 00:24:23.747 --> 00:24:26.807 Because we know teachers make the biggest difference in schools. 00:24:27.047 --> 00:24:32.747 They make the biggest difference with kids, and they're more likely gonna stay at that school than a leader is. 00:24:33.707 --> 00:24:36.017 So they're the ones who can make the biggest difference. 00:24:37.562 --> 00:24:38.612 Uh, exactly. 00:24:38.612 --> 00:24:45.962 And on the subject of Changing Mindsets, that is called Vertical Development, and Ryan Godson has done a lot of work on that. 00:24:46.442 --> 00:25:01.472 And if you, uh, go back through Transformative principle to episode 394, which is in the show notes, uh, vertical Development with Ryan Godson, that is a powerful, powerful way to actually make that happen because it is possible. 00:25:01.862 --> 00:25:08.852 Um, but like you said, uh, people, people have to be willing to have a growth mindset and see that they can. 00:25:09.182 --> 00:25:12.422 The other thing I would add, um, and you, you gave a great response there. 00:25:12.422 --> 00:25:14.282 The other thing I would add is that they need permission. 00:25:14.762 --> 00:25:22.112 They need to know that it's okay for them to, be leaders, even though their job title says teacher. 00:25:22.202 --> 00:25:29.042 And, and what I often use to help teachers understand this is that you are already a leader because you are leading. 00:25:29.537 --> 00:25:31.217 However many students you teach. 00:25:31.247 --> 00:25:38.387 And so it is important for you to also be a teacher leader and a peer leader leading those around you as well. 00:25:38.387 --> 00:25:40.577 And they need to have permission to do that. 00:25:40.817 --> 00:25:42.767 They actually don't need to 'cause they can just do it. 00:25:42.767 --> 00:25:49.067 But a lot of people need the permission themselves because they didn't believe that they could do it in the past. 00:25:49.067 --> 00:25:56.267 And so that's a, an important part that they need to, to have permission, uh, from you to be a leader and. 00:25:57.287 --> 00:26:01.457 Uh, and you know, like I said, they don't actually need it, but a lot of people think they do. 00:26:01.517 --> 00:26:03.977 So give it to 'em because they, they 00:26:04.012 --> 00:26:06.332 Yeah, absolutely. 00:26:06.542 --> 00:26:09.392 And your school is only gonna benefit from that, right? 00:26:09.842 --> 00:26:14.762 Everybody moving in the same direction and with a stronger momentum for your vision. 00:26:15.212 --> 00:26:16.082 That's powerful. 00:26:16.712 --> 00:26:17.912 Yeah, it really is. 00:26:17.912 --> 00:26:29.822 So we've talked about a lot of things here today, Kelly, but the, my last question is, what is one thing from all that we've talked about that a principal can do this week to be a Transformative Principal like you? 00:26:29.882 --> 00:26:30.327 Where do they start? 00:26:32.192 --> 00:26:37.772 Um, I think they start listening to their teachers more and, and we have great leaders who do that already. 00:26:38.042 --> 00:26:44.972 Um, but listen to what your good teachers are saying and, um, act, make decisions based on your good teachers. 00:26:45.497 --> 00:26:59.177 Um, that's what, um, Todd Whitaker says to do that absolutely make your decisions based on your good teachers, but you have to listen to what they have to say and make sure that you know what they're really saying. 00:27:00.932 --> 00:27:05.552 Which, which opens up a whole nother question of what makes a good teacher. 00:27:05.762 --> 00:27:12.362 And you already know that if you're listening, you already know who your good teachers are and the ones that you're willing to listen to. 00:27:12.812 --> 00:27:22.382 You probably need to do a little work yourself to listen to everybody, even the complainers or the quote unquote bad teachers, and see and see what you need to listen to. 00:27:22.382 --> 00:27:26.162 Just because they say something doesn't mean that you have to listen to that particular thing. 00:27:26.582 --> 00:27:32.912 But there are other things that they do say, and we could talk for hours probably about that, but that's not today. 00:27:32.972 --> 00:27:36.482 So thank you so much, Kelly, for being part of Transformative principle. 00:27:36.722 --> 00:27:38.912 Again, the book is Leading Change that Lasts. 00:27:38.912 --> 00:27:46.412 You can get it, uh, anywhere you get books, um, but uh, there's a link to it in the show notes at Transformative principle.org. 00:27:46.862 --> 00:27:49.712 Kelly, thank you so much for being part of Transformative principle today. 00:27:49.712 --> 00:27:50.642 I really appreciate it. 00:27:51.117 --> 00:27:51.687 Thank you. 00:27:51.687 --> 00:27:52.527 Happy to be here. 00:27:53.342 --> 00:27:55.622 Is there any other way that you want people to get in touch with you? 00:27:57.027 --> 00:28:01.227 Um, I have a website, enlightening leadership.com. 00:28:01.287 --> 00:28:03.297 Um, email me. 00:28:03.357 --> 00:28:03.807 Um. 00:28:04.967 --> 00:28:08.897 I have a Facebook group that I would love for more people to engage with. 00:28:09.227 --> 00:28:11.357 Uh, it's it's enlightening leadership. 00:28:11.627 --> 00:28:21.797 So yeah, anytime we can get together and have these kinds of discussions, we get better for our kids, for our teachers, for our schools, for public and private education. 00:28:22.367 --> 00:28:22.487 Yeah. 00:28:22.712 --> 00:28:27.932 and I've, I've got links to your website, to your book, and to your Facebook group at Transformative principle.org. 00:28:27.932 --> 00:28:29.102 So everybody go check that out. 00:28:29.492 --> 00:28:31.202 Thanks again for being part of this, Kelly. 00:28:31.202 --> 00:28:31.592 Have a wonderful day. 00:28:32.257 --> 00:28:32.747 Thank you. 00:28:32.747 --> 00:28:33.257 You too.