Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome,
Wendy: Wendy.
Anke: I'm very happy to have you here today.
Wendy: Oh, I'm delighted to be with you, Anke.
Anke: Thanks so much for inviting
Wendy: me.
Anke: Well, thanks for, thanks for coming.
And the reason I invited you was because other people actually said
what a brilliant guest you were.
So when I saw that, I'm like, oh, I want her on my show.
So here you are.
Thank you.
So let's start the way I always love to start, is let people know where are you
based and what's your business with dogs?
Wendy: Sure, well, I am in the US, in the state of Florida, in the lovely
area of Sarasota, where we don't, uh, we don't get above two, uh, you know, below
the 40 degrees you were talking about.
We never really do that.
Um, but my, my business with dogs is not so much business as personal experience
that led on a journey of discovery and then research and then writing a book.
And it all started with a little brown rescue puppy.
started out so promising, like so many of these adventures do.
And then, um, you know, we cured her of, of worms and all the anemia and
all the problems that come from, uh, being born behind a, a gas station, uh,
without a mom, you know, uh, being raised without a mom, she was in rescue and.
Next thing you know, I was in over my head.
I was really struggling and, um, I'm afraid I got very
impatient with this little puppy.
Um, I, I felt like we were, you know, adversaries somehow.
I, I, I just, I thought she was out to get me, honestly.
Uh, which, you know, isn't really fair.
But that, that was how it seemed to me because we had
been getting along so great.
And then she started getting healthier and bigger and energetic.
And next thing you know, I couldn't leasher, I couldn't do anything.
It was just chaos and I was really, I was really in a mess and a pickle and I
went to my husband and I started to give him, you know, all the reasons that we
should bring her back to the shelter, you know, like, Oh, she's still young.
She's still cute.
People are going to want her.
Somebody more qualified can, you know, get her.
And, uh, because this is not working out so great for me.
And I said that because I was the one doing the primary care for the puppy.
I mean, he cuddled with her at night, but I was doing all the, you know, The
other Raising the Puppy challenges and he could not be persuaded, you know,
he snuggled with that puppy every night and they had created a bond and he was,
he still believed in her and I had to find a way to get over this problem.
That was really stressing me out.
I was also worried.
We had two cats and I was certain that this dog was, you
know, grow up and kill the cats.
Like, I just had visions of chaos for years and I was, I was a wrecking.
So really, uh, in desperation, I, I had this crazy thought because
I've never raised a child myself.
But I had just helped write a book for parents who are struggling.
I worked with some wonderful experts, uh, who started a Institute of
Child Development at Texas Christian University, Karen Purvis and
David Cross, wonderful professors.
And, um, I had this moment where I thought, you know, This is a puppy,
but I'm a struggling parent, really.
I can kind of relate to these people who we wrote the book for, and that made me
think, you know, maybe I should just go back and flip through the manuscript and
see, maybe it has some wisdom for me, because I, the puppy books, you know,
the guides, the manuals, They, you know, they were okay if the puppy was calm,
they kind of taught you how to do the thing, but they didn't tell you, like,
how to deal with this insane creature that's, like, shooting around the house
like they came out of a cannon, you know?
It was just not, like, I could not, I couldn't get it.
So I, I went back to the book and I started to just see
things through a different lens.
I started to think about the puppy's development and what it
missed by not growing up with its.
and mother in critical periods and that we took her home really too young.
We didn't know this at the time, but, um, there were all these factors
that when I started to really think about it and understand and look
at it, I got a, I got a lot more compassion and I changed my methods.
I, I just slowed down and I realized we're going to have to go at her rate, not at
the rate that I was hoping to go because I had only dealt with grown, calm, you
know, dogs before and she wasn't that.
So that started me on a journey.
And, and, you know, at first I didn't want to tell anybody I was using a parenting
book, like, cause that seemed too crazy.
But then.
It just happened over my career that I, I helped another, you know,
uh, group of experts write another parenting book, and we got, we took
home a different dog, different rescue.
The more I looked closely at that material, and the more I looked at
the research in the animal realm, and in the human child development
realm, I just saw so much connection.
And, um, so that led to the book, you know, that I ended up writing called
Tender Paws, um, how parent based, um, science based parenting can help transform
our relationship with dogs, because that's, that's what happened to me.
And then I just had such fun, I started talking to experts, um, like
yourself, you know, dog professionals, uh, and getting their own personal
stories that illustrated some of these principles, um, and some of it was
really very touching and moving, um.
And I'm very grateful to all the people who spoke with me for that.
I love that.
I
Anke: love that so much.
Okay.
And I kept laughing because I'm like, yep, there's my crew.
And, uh, yeah, no, there's like these two up the top, very like kind
of similar, you know, especially the black one, like way too early.
You know, and in this way, like, no, and that was actually what even started
the idea for Soul Touched by Dogs.
It was all the stuff that I read, you know, exactly how you said it.
It was like, oh, all the instructions, you know, work for
normal dogs kind of thing, right?
All these, yeah, you have to have a level of calm for loose
leash walking to even be a thing.
Well, it certainly wasn't in my household.
It was just like, well, let's just see if we don't get kind of dragged.
No, and none of the tips work.
That, that was for me, it kind of got me onto that.
No, no, no, there's got to be something else.
You know, those, those instructions, those, those tips
are not all there is to it.
And I just totally resonate with this idea.
Actually, I have a friend of mine is a therapist.
You know, and she's written, she's written a series of books and she
treats with, especially with, uh, kids and, and, and, uh, adolescents
and, you know, even grown ups who have, like, hypersensitivities, right?
And they're often misunderstood.
And wrongly judged and, you know, where it's like, oh, there is
behavior, uh, rules are enforced that somehow make things worse, right?
And when she talks about her mess, like her, her method, we've often
laughed because she has a dog.
Like we always are like, you can take Like, kids with hypersensitivity
and replace that with dogs and will full on be relevant, right?
It like, it makes, it makes so much sense, you know?
So what's the most surprising thing that you, you know, that you all of a sudden
saw differently when you looked at it through the lens of, of, of a parent?
Like, what was like the dog doing where you thought, Oh, now I
understand what's actually going on.
Wendy: Well, there, there were a number of things.
The turning point happened when she was so mouthy and just pawing
and jumping and mouthing and, um,
I just stood back and I gave her an opportunity to do it
differently at her own pace.
And when I offered her that opportunity, she stepped forward and licked my hand.
Now, that doesn't sound like much, but she had never done that before.
And that was quite different than putting her teeth on me, which is
what she had been doing all the time.
So what did you do differently then?
Well, you know, I, I, um, first off, I had to center myself, like, you know,
calm down, because I was And I was feeling stressed and, you know, uncomfortable
that she was hurting me and, and so I really had to just like, calm down and
say okay I'm going to like model, some of this calmness that I want to see
from her going to stand back and what I also did was I crouched down low.
And I just started speaking in a very calm, you know, soothing tone.
I used the word do over.
I could have really said anything, but, you know, I was, for me as well
as for her, like, let's do a do over.
So I, and I put my hand in a way, but I didn't come up on top of
her and I didn't pounce on her.
I, I, I was a little bit to the side, so she didn't feel
like I was attacking her or.
You know, she could get comfortable and come at her own pace, and I stayed at a
distance for a little while, and she just started to, you know, come forward, and
then she like sniffs my hand and then licks it that once, and that, that one
lick, that, that was it, that was like, oh, she wants to connect, she just doesn't
know how, um, and if I could appreciate that and give her the time, Um, that
was, that was hugely helpful, especially for, you know, a growing, young,
heading toward adolescence kind of dog.
Um, there's fear and, and you talked about sensory.
I'm so glad you brought that up.
I got excited because in the Connected Child book, for example, we talked about
Kids being online at school and somebody just bumps into them and they freak out
and they like start punching and people don't understand that that's like a
sensitive, you know, a sensory issue.
So not that they're, you know, angry at it.
When you start to look at it differently like through the body needs to
learn about the environment and.
It's not just a matter of getting balance, it's, it's reading
the world through physical.
And that helps your brain get wired too.
And until all those things integrate.
Um, you know, a child is going to suffer, and the same, the dog has,
you know, has to mature and get through the, that's why puppies do
those incredible cute antics, right?
Because they're, they're experimenting, they're throwing themselves around,
they don't have the fine motor skills yet, they don't have the whole
brain body connection super strong.
And, um, so, Just starting to appreciate, for example, with Hazel,
the little dog I was dealing with, leashing her was a real issue.
And I realized that, you know, if I took it from her
perspective, How would that feel?
First off, putting the thing around the neck.
Second, that, that leash would hit her back at unpredictable times, right?
Cause it's rubbed, you know, you know how it drapes on a dog and a
grown dog begins to get used to it.
They sort of anticipate it, but a little puppy who's under age and
starting to have all her neurons firing, that could be scary.
That could actually feel uncomfortable.
That could trigger some of those sensory reactions that
your friend was talking about.
Anke: Yeah, that makes, that makes so much sense.
And I, I sometimes, do you think, because it just reminds me of the,
uh, actually dog of a friend of mine who was kind of same age as this one.
And she was also found as like a, like, you know, next to nothing, you know,
full of, full of ticks and whatever.
And I don't know, maybe four weeks, like way too young to be away from, from her
mother and, and little mates, right?
And that dog.
Always had trouble throughout her whole life, like, relating to other dogs.
You know, I was looking after her for a couple of days once, and I'm walking
around with her, and there was this other dog coming along, like, oh, bouncy
and playful, and she was, like, scared.
She's hiding behind me.
You know, and I'm like, you can't read that dog.
Like, you can't tell because the other dog was bigger, you know, but
like, so goofy, so playful, right?
Like, there was nothing aggressive or threatening in
that other dog's body language.
But I'm like, isn't that interesting?
She didn't read that.
You know, and then there'd be other situations where there were, like, big
threatening, and then she walks up to them, like, it's like, you don't know
how, you don't know how to speak dog, because nobody taught you, taught you, I
think, you know, it's quite hard when you get a puppy like that young, to almost,
you start below zero, because all the stuff that normally the mother and the
littermates would sort of teach them in that natural way, they don't have that.
Wendy: Right, and I've heard similar stories, um, some people write about.
Uh, a dog that's a singleton, you know, has no litter mates, has,
can have some of those issues too.
Whereas the mother may, you know, instruct them a little, but they don't
have that real heavy duty experience of learning that's so valuable.
Um, they don't learn how to be a dog.
Anke: Yeah, that's, that's, that's so true.
And actually my last one, my big white one, she was, she grew up in a like
a, in a Spanish farm and there were horses and there were another dog with
other puppies, like her own siblings.
And there were like cats and chickens and horses and the whole,
and she is the savviest thing ever.
You know, and then my other dog taught her a lot.
Like, so she is the, you know, like, well, that was the easiest puppy to
raise ever because she had all that.
And it makes such a big difference, you know, when they know how to.
Read their environment.
So how long do you think?
So once you have that insight, like, oh, actually I need
to come at this differently.
What were sort of, what were the phases?
Or was it kind of smooth sailing from then onwards or was it, you know, like,
what were kind of the stages for her to.
Right.
Wendy: Um, well, I have to say that I was learning too, right?
So, uh, that first aha moment was very helpful and it got me
started in the right direction.
And, um, I started to use the parenting idea sort of in the back
of my head, but I still looked at dog, you know, uh, information.
And I would not say it was super smooth sailing because she grew to be a lot
bigger than I ever expected, or we hoped.
We thought we'd get maybe 20, 30 pounds, right?
But we got 65 pounds.
And so there were elements of that that did not go so smoothly.
And I had to keep learning.
And what I ended up, you know, in hindsight, I could see more clearly.
some of the opportunities that I missed, um, and I try to share some
of that in the book of to help people maybe avoid some of the challenges
that, that I face because, um,
you know, when a dog gets bigger and stronger, um, and, um, how do you
keep that relationship cooperative?
Um, and, and sometimes
And sometimes even they want to cooperate, but nature kicks in, right?
Uh, I can't always compete with the squirrel that just raced across in
front of her and ran up the tree.
Uh, and in her case, that was super exciting.
Uh, and then I got carried away.
Uh, so,
and, you know, nearly dislocated my shoulder because I was not
using the right equipment.
for that situation.
So there, um, you know, I, I would hesitate to advise people
to follow me exactly in my footsteps because it was a learning
Anke: process.
What, what, what, what are some, you know, like, tips you would give them to avoid?
Pitfalls to the Fallen End.
Do you want to mention just one?
Wendy: Yeah, well, actually, what I ended up doing is I ended up sort of looking
at the whole universe of interventions that the parenting people used, and then
I mapped them to dog kind of things.
And it helped me come up with a, like a big framework.
And I use the word hearts, H E A R T S, as a simple way for me to remember them.
And it kind of represents all the different things
that you want to think about.
H is for heal the body, for obvious reasons, you got to get rid of the worms
or whatever the problems are, you know, and they might be invisible to us too.
It could be allergies and food issues, but anyway, that's the baseline.
So you start with H, heal the body.
E is for enrichment and optimizing the brain.
You know, that sensory input and movement are so important, uh, for well being.
Then you have A, for appropriate environments with felt safety, because
that feeling of safety lets them rest and digest and gives well being and
restores the body, uh, and the brain and emotional baseline and everything.
Um, R is for respectful and secure relationships.
And that's kind of basic, that's sort of the golden rule, right?
You do unto others, you treat people nicely, you want them to treat you with
respect, you treat them with respect, and you can work that out with your dog too,
whatever that means in your household.
Tea is teaching sensitively and positively, because we know positive
reinforcement handled sensitively, you know, not cookie cutter positive
reinforcement, but handled sensitively and
tailored to your animal and their needs.
And then the last thing is the S is Support the Individual because they might
be young, they might be old, they might be sick, they might have this, or they
might have a breed in them that just takes over sometimes and it's a very
natural need and we have to honor those.
It's like their superpower.
So.
That's, I mean, there's so much there, that's why I use the hearts, because I'm
just trying to find a way to put it all in, uh, keep it front of mind, so when we
look at a dog that we're struggling with, we can ask ourselves, where in this You
know, a framework is their opportunity to improve for them, for welfare, for
them, for us, to get the right mix.
Anke: Oh, I love that.
I love that.
And it does make, actually, I saw, like, I saw this meme recently on Instagram.
We kind of see it quite a bit where, where they say, well, The things that, the very
same qualities that dogs have been bred for for centuries are now, you know, now
we take them into city apartments and now that same behavior is, is problem
behavior, you know, like you're border collie, like you're herding dog nipping
your ankles, your, your terrier digging up the, you know, so it's like all the stuff
and it's like, oh, isn't that so true?
You know, and I love that you're saying like, we have to honor what, you know, You
know, what's in their nature and make sure you give them appropriate outlets for it.
Yeah, I love that.
Right, so
Wendy: much problem falls away if we can anticipate that proactively.
Uh, just easier for For people, easier for the dogs.
It's just a win win.
Anke: And even, like, even the whole thing of looking at it through the lens
of the parent, right, because I sometimes get this, like, you know, like, I don't
know, my parents will come and say, my dad will go, like, wait, you know, well,
you need to look, sit, you know, like, oh, well, dog shouldn't go there or whatever.
And I'm like, Why do you leave the rubbish bin open on the floor then?
Right?
Would you do that to a toddler?
And that's always the thing.
You know, it's like, would you set up a toddler for failure like that?
Like, no, you would like, no, I shouldn't have to put the rubbish bin.
I want to put the rubbish bin where I want and the dog just
needs to adjust kind of thing.
You know, and I'm thinking, well, If I was to, like, would I do that to a toddler?
Like, would I say, well, you know, there's a, there's, there's a,
there's a socket, electricity, right?
Well, the kid just needs to learn.
No, you know, like you, you protect it.
You make sure you set up your child for success.
And I would think if you do take that same attitude, like set your dog up for
success and don't put him in situations where they, you know, likely to fail, I
think you're already a huge step ahead.
Wendy: That's a, that's a brilliant example.
It's absolutely perfect because once you, once you start to see them as a toddler
level of, you know, it helps you make different choices and, and, and don't
resent them for being who they are.
And you can sort of appreciate it.
And that's a great, great way to frame it.
Anke: Yeah.
And it takes the guilt away as well.
Like, you know, when that whole parenting approach, that whole like, oh, my dog
should be behaving and why, you know, yeah, I just, just love this so much.
So where can people, you know, get the book, get in touch with
you, tell them where to find you?
Wendy: Yeah.
Um, you're welcome to find me at wendylsunshine.
com.
That's my website.
And the book is available from Amazon and Barnes and Noble and,
Simon Schuster is the distributor.
It's, it's easily available.
That's Tender Paws, P A W S, and I liked it because it has a double meaning too.
It's like paws, like, let's take a break.
Let's just slow down.
Anke: I love it.
It's so it sounds so gentle like that.
I just love the name.
Yeah, it's beautiful and it really, I think it reflects what
what you're all about and what What you're communicating there.
So yeah, thank you.
Thanks so much for coming.
This was absolutely delightful.
And uh, yes, get, get the book because I know, I know what it's
like when everybody else's dog seems to have it together, except yours.
I know what that feels like.
Isn't fun.
And, and I think looking at it through that lens of taking that role of parent
makes all the difference in the world.
So yeah, definitely do yourself a favor, check out the book
and get in touch with Wendy.
So much.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.