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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do here,
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like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really, really helps
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To find out about our certification
courses, online video libraries,

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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisakson.

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com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Alright lads, this one is a real
treat for me, because I've got one

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of my oldest friends sitting on Zoom.

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Tom Parsons.

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Tom I have known for 40 years, I think?

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So clearly, obviously before, since
before I was born, or he was born.

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And I've watched Participated in and
cheered on the events of Tom's live

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free, ride free life decade by decade.

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And still am.

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And I wanted him on the show because,
as you know, I don't always want

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people who are well known here.

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I don't want there to be this idea
that to lead a self actualised,

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fulfilled or successful life, that
somehow requires some public thing.

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It doesn't.

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We know this.

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It's much more personal than that.

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And so how do people fulfill their

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soul needs through the course of
living the lives that are quite normal?

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You know, we, we go to school, maybe
we go to university, we get this job,

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we get that job, we have, we meet
someone, we have kids, then suddenly

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we're drowning in nappies for 500
years and then we look up and we're 80.

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And that is, I think, the
story of many of our lives.

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However, what happens in between is

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Tom is, I think, the
epitome of that for me.

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What has driven Tom is art history, but
in ways that are maybe somewhat unusual.

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And this has brought him to, at the point
of retirement, really now a whole new

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career with certain types of festival
and certain types of production and

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encouragement of the arts with youth.

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And the next 40 years are going
to be as interesting, if not

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more so, as the last 40 years.

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So here is a self actualised
live free life, live free

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life, live free ride free life,

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right on a plate for all of
us to eat from and enjoy.

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So, Tom Parsons, thank you
for coming on the show.

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Tom Parsons: My pleasure.

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Thank you.

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Thanks, Rude.

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Nice to, nice to

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Rupert Isaacson: see you.

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Now what none of you can see, actually you
probably can see because we're going to

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be putting this up on YouTube these days,
is you might be forgiven for thinking

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that I got Bill Nighy on the show.

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And I couldn't actually get Bill Nighy,
so I got Tom to stand in, because

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he looks exactly like Bill Nighy.

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And I think that Bill Nighy actually
has been secretly following Tom around

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for the last few decades, copying him,
and turning that into his acting career.

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Because I don't know anyone
who, I don't think even Bill

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Nye is as Bill Nye e e as Tom.

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So, Tom, talk to us now about
why you love art history so much.

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How did that start with you as a kid?

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Where were you born and brought up?

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How did it enter your life,
and at what point did you know,

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Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.

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I don't know how I'm gonna do
it, but that's what I'm gonna do.

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Tom Parsons: Okay, thank you.

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I was born and brought up in a

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comfortable house in, in southwest London.

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I guess we had, you know, we had some nice
paintings or posters and things at home.

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I went to the Tate at 15 in rather
a sort of hormonal state thought and

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enjoyed it, didn't understand anything
I was looking at, but enjoyed that.

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We didn't do art history at school.

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I ended up going to university to study
English and got very drunk one night and

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The next day, I was in such a state that I
knew that I couldn't really function, so I

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ended up, I thought, I know, I'll go to an
art history lecture because I'm not taking

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the subject, I'm vaguely interested in
it, but more to the point, it'll be dark

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and warm and I know I can fall asleep.

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So I went to this lecture.

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And I did fall asleep, but when
I woke up, the slide that was

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on the screen was a a, a Rothko.

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And I, I remembered I'd seen this
or seen a painting by Rothko in the

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Tate and thought it was rubbish.

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It was just a big rectangle.

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Anyone could do that.

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So I listened, I was intrigued to
see what the lecturer was gonna

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say, and I, I had a sort of you
know, wrote to Damascus moment.

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I, it was.

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I converted on the spot to believing,
still do believe, Rothko is rather

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amazing, completely amazing.

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Anyway, wobbled out of the lecture,
went to my department, the English

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department, and and said, please, can
I change my degree to art history?

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So I ended up doing both.

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And Left University, and I suppose at that
point decided, yeah, I'll try to make a

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living out of out of what I love, which,
which by that point was European art.

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So, so yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay, let's
get, let's, there's a couple of

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things I want to ask you there.

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Okay, so Rothko, those of you
who don't know Rothko, can you

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describe Rothko please, Tom?

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Tom Parsons: Okay, Rothko is a New York
painter who died in the early 70s he's

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part of the abstract expressionist school,
and he painted large scale well, his

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characteristic style that he reached in
his maturity are large scale abstracts.

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Very simple on, on first viewing,
sort of huge, rectangular,

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moody, pulsating Blobs of color.

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And and he made, he claimed for
them A sort of spiritual eloquence.

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He never went that much further
in terms of trying to explain.

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But but he did, he did
make certain assertions.

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And you can, you can agree or not but I'm,
I'm one of the ones who, who do agree that

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they have that sort of power and impact.

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And yeah, he's, he's good.

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Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
though, because I don't know

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you so much as an abstract dude.

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I know you much more as a high renaissance
art, baroque art art historian, you

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know, I've, I've been with you in
Italy and I want to go into this

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and the story of art and why it's so
amazing and why it helps us understand.

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who we are and why we are and what we
might do wrong again in the future.

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But you also said something about a road
to Damascus moment there and conversion.

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One of the best ways I ever
heard you describe yourself

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was as a died again Christian.

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Talk to us a little bit about
you were that moody adolescent,

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then you got religion, then you
went off and did some interesting

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stuff before university, and then.

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You changed a bit, and why?

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Talk us through that.

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Tom Parsons: Okay yeah, I did
have a very sort of Christian

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phase in my later teenage years.

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Why?

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Because I

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Rupert Isaacson: know you
weren't brought up that way.

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Tom Parsons: It was a, on the one
hand, I think it was actually a form

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of rebellion and because it was quite
a, it was a sort of evangelical form

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of, of the Christian faith, it was sort
of, so it was, In, in, in one sense it,

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you know, it was sort of radical and,
and ultra committed and, and so on.

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Anyway, so there was that aspect to it.

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It, but it also simultaneously
fulfilled a a, you know, a kind of

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teenage longing for, for the ideal.

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And And on the back of that, I went,
I had a year, a gap year, a year

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off between school and university
and I went off to a phenomenal

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place as a volunteer in Hong Kong.

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And I met, I, I volunteered for a woman.

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Who ran a rehab center for heroin
addicts Hong Kong Chinese, all

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ages, all backgrounds, but all, all
of whom had in common that their

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lives had been destroyed by heroin.

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And she took them off the streets
and, and put them back together.

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And I, as I say, I worked
there for six months.

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Yeah, I, it was that was,
that was extraordinary.

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And I suppose, I suppose the,
well, I don't know something about,

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I don't know, what I realized there,
and I realize, I suppose there's a

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common thread through my life, is
that for me, I ended up teaching

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but the, the mechanism is similar.

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In other words, When you put
yourself in a position where you are,

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as it were, giving to other people,
whether it's in a classroom or

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a rehab centre in Hong Kong,

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you get so much back.

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And I and I So there's a sort of
selfishness in, in in my motivation,

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there always has been or rather it's
just a circle if you give you get back,

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and that's, that's a good way to live.

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Rupert Isaacson: I remember a story
you told me about that time in

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Hong Kong a bit of a life or death
situation, where, involving oil.

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Tom Parsons: Oh yeah, okay.

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Rupert Isaacson: Please tell that story
and what that left you, what insights

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did you gain from that experience?

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Tom Parsons: I think the
story is, it was the only time

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I've ever felt threatened I think whilst
I was there, but the, I was in this, in

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this flat, we, there were what sort of,
I made About 20 of us living in a, an

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apartment in a high rise in, in Hong Kong.

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And and my, my role there was, you know,
I was the, the, the, the sort of odd

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job boy really just doing menial stuff.

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But anyway, one evening I should
explain, all, all of the cooking was

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done by the by the guys, the guys.

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Cause they knew how to cook.

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I certainly didn't know how
to cook and I certainly didn't

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know how to cook Chinese food.

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So they did all the cooking.

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I had no idea what I was
eating half the time.

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I did recognize bits of pig head every
now and again, but anyway, whatever.

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But one, one evening there was.

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There was a row in the kitchen and I
was the only, I think I was the only

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volunteer at that moment in the flat.

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And I went into the kitchen to try and
sort this thing out, whatever it was.

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And the, the guy who was really,
really cross and angry about

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whatever it was turned and he was
holding a wok with smoking oil.

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It was very, very hot.

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And he, he was threatening
to throw it all over me.

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And at that moment, one of the
other guys came up and just

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put his hand on my shoulder.

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I in, I think and just sort of said,
Tom, just step back, step back and.

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So I did but I was quite shaken by that.

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It was the only, as I said, the only
time there was any, ever, ever any

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sort of threat of violence to me.

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And yeah, I was a bit shaken at the time.

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It, it passed.

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It was fine, actually.

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The, the, the desire amongst the guys in
that flat to straighten out their lives.

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overrid or overrode such moments.

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And so, you know, I was, I was
immensely privileged to unfortunate

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to be, to be part of that.

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Rupert Isaacson: Those kinds of early
experiences do you feel that they're

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actually quite important in the life?

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Of a young person.

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I'm, I'm, in terms of understanding
your own resilience and

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understanding perspective taking.

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How do you think, I can think of
similar things that happened to me, you

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know, at that age and over the years.

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And I can sort of see how
I've drawn on those things.

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I, I, I believe now for many,
many reasons, our youth, we, they

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live in a slightly more sheltered.

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universe than we might have done.

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Things were very different
back in the eighties.

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What do you think an experience like
that did for you as you became an adult?

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It's your subconscious.

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Tom Parsons: The whole experience that
my experience there was, well, actually

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one of the things that's relevant is
that I think I remember after about

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three months there, I was aware that
other friends of mine were, you know,

00:14:26.380 --> 00:14:33.710
partying in India or Australia, wherever
they were, or even back in London.

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And I wasn't, and I was very, my,
my, my life there was, you know,

00:14:39.547 --> 00:14:44.545
very limited, very, very strictly
organized and, and, and so on.

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I had no, I had, I had
one, one day off a week.

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And after about three months,
I remember saying to Jackie,

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who's the lady who ran the place.

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So Jackie, I'm finding
this really quite hard.

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I got this urge to go.

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I still want to go
traveling and, and so on.

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And she said, well, look.

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You know, you're a volunteer,
you can go, you can leave anytime

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you like, anytime you like, but

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I just want to remind you that you, when
you wrote to ask if you could come, you,

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you said you would stay for six months.

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And I said, yeah, I know, I know.

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And, and I know that I ought to,
I know I ought to stay because

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that's what I said I would do.

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I'm just.

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I'm just saying, she said,
well, look, you are free.

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My problem was that I had a ticket, my
flight, my flight back, I'd prepaid,

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I didn't have the money to extend it.

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Anyway, I went off, had a think,
went back to see her the next day and

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said, no, of course I'm going to stay.

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I can't, I can't, I
can't break my promise.

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I can't, I won't be able
to live with myself.

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So, and I think about a week later.

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She came back and said right, we're going
to pay for the extension for your ticket.

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So that did, so I actually, I
did get the opportunity to go, I

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went off into China at the end.

00:16:06.645 --> 00:16:09.815
So it was, it, that, so
yeah, I, what did I learn?

00:16:09.815 --> 00:16:12.695
I just learned, yeah, if you make
a promise, you, you stick to it.

00:16:12.695 --> 00:16:18.365
And for your own, so that you can
look yourself in, in the mirror.

00:16:21.065 --> 00:16:22.475
Rupert Isaacson: You've spent now.

00:16:23.105 --> 00:16:29.355
Some decades working with kids who
were your age, more or less when

00:16:29.355 --> 00:16:31.415
you had to make that decision.

00:16:31.965 --> 00:16:37.755
So I might circle back to it later when
I met you, which was at university, after

00:16:37.755 --> 00:16:41.845
you'd come back from that you were a
year above me, so you'd already, you were

00:16:41.845 --> 00:16:43.975
already a year in before I showed up.

00:16:43.975 --> 00:16:49.675
And I seem to recall that we didn't really
become close friends until my second year.

00:16:49.675 --> 00:16:52.455
So you were already, you
know, a couple of years.

00:16:53.050 --> 00:16:54.000
Past that experience.

00:16:54.420 --> 00:16:56.020
And of course, I knew you as

00:16:58.530 --> 00:17:02.550
Maybe not quite so
straight laced a fellow.

00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:04.760
What changed?

00:17:07.040 --> 00:17:10.310
From that evangelical Christian thing.

00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:13.210
Why

00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:14.260
Rupert Isaacson: did it change?

00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:19.170
But what did it leave you with
that you still draw on to this day?

00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:21.670
Tom Parsons: Okay.

00:17:22.130 --> 00:17:22.780
The

00:17:25.510 --> 00:17:29.740
going to university, I realized, I
suppose I, no, I very consciously

00:17:29.750 --> 00:17:37.330
realized I could, I didn't know anyone
there and you know one at, at university.

00:17:37.340 --> 00:17:41.110
So on arrival, I sort of, I, I realized,
well, my God, I could be anyone.

00:17:41.130 --> 00:17:45.740
I could, I could become
anyone that I, that I choose.

00:17:47.010 --> 00:17:53.325
And I, I certainly had, if you
like, intellectual misgivings about

00:17:53.375 --> 00:18:00.200
about the Christian path I had
been following and So it wasn't

00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:04.000
at all difficult to kind of park,

00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:10.140
to park my, my faith at
all, no, that was great.

00:18:10.260 --> 00:18:15.360
Because it meant all kinds of
activities I'd, I'd not allowed

00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:19.610
myself were, were available.

00:18:19.780 --> 00:18:22.990
And that, that was all very
exciting and, you know, indulgent

00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:24.260
and so on, that was great.

00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:28.760
But what I kept was a, I sort
of, you know, kept the idealism.

00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:33.730
The idea, yeah, the ideals that, that

00:18:36.690 --> 00:18:39.670
got rid of the dogma was
quite a good deal, I think.

00:18:39.760 --> 00:18:42.430
Rupert Isaacson: To keep the ideals
but get rid of the dogma, that's nice.

00:18:43.330 --> 00:18:44.230
What are the ideals?

00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.020
Tom Parsons: The ideals are of

00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:57.060
love, forgiveness

00:18:57.060 --> 00:18:59.860
the, the, the ideal of, of, of,

00:19:02.810 --> 00:19:09.560
oh God, you know, living for
something which is bigger than you.

00:19:10.060 --> 00:19:10.310
Service.

00:19:11.735 --> 00:19:17.435
Yes, but bearing in mind that
I had worked out that if you do

00:19:17.435 --> 00:19:20.145
that, you get a huge amount back.

00:19:21.185 --> 00:19:23.835
So, I don't want, I don't
want this to sound Is

00:19:23.855 --> 00:19:24.845
Rupert Isaacson: that necessarily wrong?

00:19:24.975 --> 00:19:26.855
I mean, one, one has that No,

00:19:26.855 --> 00:19:27.565
Tom Parsons: it's not wrong at

00:19:27.565 --> 00:19:27.745
Rupert Isaacson: all.

00:19:27.755 --> 00:19:31.165
Spirituality presumably is an
ecosystem like anything else, right?

00:19:31.610 --> 00:19:32.560
Tom Parsons: It's not wrong at all.

00:19:32.560 --> 00:19:38.090
I just don't want, I it's, it's
a rather beautiful circuit that

00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:41.340
feeds, that feeds everyone.

00:19:41.550 --> 00:19:43.770
Rupert Isaacson: Also, a
lot of the art that you take

00:19:43.780 --> 00:19:45.710
people to see is religious art.

00:19:46.450 --> 00:19:49.340
You know, I've been with you in,
you know, the Renaissance art is,

00:19:49.790 --> 00:19:52.690
half of it is religious and half
of it's allegorical, you know.

00:19:53.180 --> 00:19:58.820
Do you feel that that early ardour that
you had, it gives you an insight into

00:19:58.820 --> 00:20:02.375
when you're explaining the, Emotion behind

00:20:02.685 --> 00:20:02.795
Tom Parsons: these things.

00:20:02.805 --> 00:20:03.305
Yeah.

00:20:03.545 --> 00:20:03.965
Yes.

00:20:04.025 --> 00:20:04.815
Yeah, no doubt.

00:20:04.865 --> 00:20:05.445
No doubt.

00:20:05.655 --> 00:20:07.065
And I

00:20:09.265 --> 00:20:12.938
interesting actually, I don't
know all of that, all of all of

00:20:12.938 --> 00:20:19.775
that time I spent reading the good
book has, you know, paid me back,

00:20:20.465 --> 00:20:23.005
Rupert Isaacson: As Because you know all
the stories that are in the pictures.

00:20:23.475 --> 00:20:28.565
Tom Parsons: I know the stories, but,
and I have a sense of, I have my own

00:20:28.565 --> 00:20:30.335
sense of what, of what they mean.

00:20:30.765 --> 00:20:31.325
Yes.

00:20:31.665 --> 00:20:37.775
And what they may have meant to
a Renaissance artist or the, or

00:20:37.775 --> 00:20:39.585
the viewers in Renaissance times.

00:20:39.725 --> 00:20:40.015
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:20:40.625 --> 00:20:45.565
I think that's invaluable to help people
put themselves in the mindset of, not

00:20:45.565 --> 00:20:48.745
just maybe who the painter was, but
who the people were who We're seeing

00:20:48.745 --> 00:20:50.035
that painting all that sculpture.

00:20:50.335 --> 00:20:55.315
All right, so we're at university
and I remember some things

00:20:57.685 --> 00:21:01.515
Because I was such a diligent student I
was working so hard of course I I couldn't

00:21:01.595 --> 00:21:06.215
really spare much time for Noticing other
things that other people went on because

00:21:06.215 --> 00:21:10.285
I had my nose in my books so much But
I do remember a few small things like

00:21:10.975 --> 00:21:14.385
I remember we went to university in
York by the way listeners and in York

00:21:14.395 --> 00:21:16.125
York's very beautiful medieval town.

00:21:16.395 --> 00:21:19.680
It's still got a wall medieval wall
around it and everything inside that

00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:21.650
wall is somewhat of a museum piece.

00:21:22.050 --> 00:21:23.720
And there's a big cathedral
called York Minster.

00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:30.430
I seem to remember you climbing
York Minster scaffolding

00:21:31.110 --> 00:21:34.240
one night, one frosty night.

00:21:35.580 --> 00:21:35.920
You know,

00:21:36.470 --> 00:21:39.840
Rupert Isaacson: what I've always
found intriguing about you is

00:21:42.500 --> 00:21:46.220
you're my tweedy friend that
wears suits and to some degree

00:21:47.430 --> 00:21:49.920
follows the societal rules.

00:21:50.235 --> 00:21:51.125
Except when you don't.

00:21:54.725 --> 00:21:56.095
Why did you climb the

00:21:58.245 --> 00:21:59.935
scaffolding of York Minster?

00:22:00.025 --> 00:22:01.865
Which is a huge building, very dangerous.

00:22:04.135 --> 00:22:05.535
Talk to me about that side of you.

00:22:06.055 --> 00:22:09.535
You also were going running up and
down from London on this ancient old

00:22:09.735 --> 00:22:12.235
motorbike that was total deathtrap.

00:22:12.785 --> 00:22:15.685
And one, I guess what I'm trying to
say, I'm trying to pay you a compliment.

00:22:15.825 --> 00:22:21.365
Is you, I think are one of the
most insanely physically brave

00:22:21.385 --> 00:22:25.905
people I know, but you pull it
out at really strange moments.

00:22:26.605 --> 00:22:28.315
Why, what's going on with that?

00:22:28.345 --> 00:22:28.755
And.

00:22:29.290 --> 00:22:34.020
How does that help with art,
joy, expression, fulfilment?

00:22:34.060 --> 00:22:37.790
Why is it important to have this
side of oneself, do you think?

00:22:37.900 --> 00:22:41.950
Tom Parsons: Yeah, okay, the, I
mean, I did, I did climb up the

00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:48.550
scaffold wall around the back of
the minster and That was great fun.

00:22:48.610 --> 00:22:50.000
It was really stupid.

00:22:50.090 --> 00:22:51.280
I wouldn't do it now.

00:22:51.830 --> 00:22:54.640
And yeah, the motorbike oh, goodness me.

00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:00.080
Anyway, no, there's obviously, there's
a, there's a, there's a part of me, which

00:23:00.080 --> 00:23:09.930
still needs, I suppose, to do you know,
well, stupid slash unconventional things.

00:23:10.030 --> 00:23:12.620
Despite actually, yeah,
quite a conventional.

00:23:13.065 --> 00:23:15.295
Lifestyle as a, I suppose
it's a release, but

00:23:15.935 --> 00:23:17.705
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, well,
you say it's a release.

00:23:17.765 --> 00:23:20.095
Is it, it's a release from what

00:23:23.485 --> 00:23:26.665
Tom Parsons: I haven't climbed up
anything quite like that recently.

00:23:26.865 --> 00:23:28.285
No, it's a, it's a test, isn't it?

00:23:28.345 --> 00:23:30.765
It's sort of, can I,
let's see what I can do.

00:23:31.205 --> 00:23:31.525
It

00:23:31.655 --> 00:23:32.855
Rupert Isaacson: where I'm going with this

00:23:33.335 --> 00:23:33.355
is

00:23:37.255 --> 00:23:39.325
Rupert Isaacson: you've, you've
had a lot of, we're going to

00:23:39.375 --> 00:23:40.545
talk going to this in a minute.

00:23:41.005 --> 00:23:42.775
I've had to spend the last decades.

00:23:43.085 --> 00:23:48.135
Doing a lot of pastoral care, people
who were the age that you were

00:23:48.155 --> 00:23:51.845
when you were off to Hong Kong and
China and climbing up York Minster.

00:23:52.505 --> 00:23:57.025
This idea of, I, I, I, I'm a great
believer that particularly when

00:23:57.025 --> 00:24:00.705
you're young, you need risk, you
need it like you need oxygen.

00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:06.780
In order to, like a plant needs
sunlight in order to grow at

00:24:06.780 --> 00:24:08.700
the same time, it is risky.

00:24:09.950 --> 00:24:14.320
We're hunter gatherers, we're supposed to
at a certain point take the spear and go

00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:19.800
into the bush and see if we can come back
with a wildebeest while dodging the lions.

00:24:20.430 --> 00:24:27.275
And if we don't do that, we may be don't
achieve certain life skills, but we

00:24:27.275 --> 00:24:28.735
also got to stay alive while we do it.

00:24:28.865 --> 00:24:33.625
And you, you've been in this interesting
position in the last few years of,

00:24:33.645 --> 00:24:38.785
of, of trying to help people in those
years who are probably having that need

00:24:39.395 --> 00:24:43.805
navigate also while being responsible
for them and, you know, staying within

00:24:43.805 --> 00:24:45.855
the legalities and all of that stuff.

00:24:45.855 --> 00:24:48.355
It's a, it's a very tricky
line to tread whether we're

00:24:48.355 --> 00:24:49.665
doing it personally or whether.

00:24:50.450 --> 00:24:52.490
You know you're responsible for others.

00:24:53.350 --> 00:25:02.140
Talk to me a little bit about that,
because I feel it relates to self

00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:04.340
fulfillment, it also relates to art.

00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.850
But just talk to me a little bit
about that, from your experience

00:25:07.870 --> 00:25:12.290
personally, with your own three
boys, and all the kids who've been

00:25:12.490 --> 00:25:14.640
under your care this last 30 years.

00:25:14.830 --> 00:25:17.300
This thing about risk, this thing
about challenge, this thing about

00:25:17.560 --> 00:25:18.870
rule breaking, why is it so important?

00:25:20.540 --> 00:25:21.050
Tom Parsons: Okay.

00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:22.410
The I, yes.

00:25:22.450 --> 00:25:22.680
Okay.

00:25:22.710 --> 00:25:27.920
I, I ended up for 20 odd
years as a working as a, as a,

00:25:30.220 --> 00:25:31.570
the term is housemaster.

00:25:31.570 --> 00:25:33.370
It's basically a pastoral
role in a boarding

00:25:33.370 --> 00:25:33.680
Rupert Isaacson: school.

00:25:34.030 --> 00:25:35.860
He did actually work
in Hogwarts, listeners.

00:25:35.860 --> 00:25:35.970
Yes.

00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:37.630
And Directly under Dumbledore.

00:25:37.690 --> 00:25:41.250
Tom Parsons: And so a lot of
that, so I spent a lot of time.

00:25:41.320 --> 00:25:45.680
to teenagers as often as not, it was
when they were in trouble because

00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.110
they'd broken whichever rule it was.

00:25:49.420 --> 00:25:55.820
Obviously, if you've done a little bit
of that yourself then, you know, you

00:25:55.840 --> 00:26:01.820
can, you can relate, you can relate
to the, to, to, to those who've,

00:26:01.860 --> 00:26:04.130
who've, who've made their own mistakes.

00:26:04.630 --> 00:26:06.570
And yeah, you know, those
mistakes are useful.

00:26:07.010 --> 00:26:12.670
They, yeah, my, my own moments of
madness certainly helped me understand,

00:26:14.810 --> 00:26:19.540
understand, or yeah sympathize with those
who I was actually having to admonish.

00:26:20.090 --> 00:26:26.430
And so, yeah, I was able to, I think,
I was able to come across as someone

00:26:26.430 --> 00:26:31.200
who, who understood whilst at the same
time saying, well, that, you know,

00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:34.900
yeah, you're gonna, you know, here are
the, there are school rules, la la la,

00:26:34.900 --> 00:26:39.010
you're going to have to suck up the,
whatever the sanction is and, and, you

00:26:39.020 --> 00:26:42.240
know, and let's, let's learn from this.

00:26:42.320 --> 00:26:43.160
That sort of thing.

00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:45.160
Yeah, so all of that very useful.

00:26:45.710 --> 00:26:51.960
I suppose my own slightly ambiguous
relationship with authority, you know,

00:26:51.980 --> 00:26:55.880
because on the one hand I do conform, on
the other hand, it's sort of, that helped

00:26:56.520 --> 00:27:03.400
in terms of being being able to listen
to a student's you know, when they were

00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:10.540
letting off steam and angry with the
system, I could, you know, I get that.

00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:13.230
Anyway, yeah, it was that, as I say, that.

00:27:14.075 --> 00:27:17.195
a slightly ambiguous attitude.

00:27:18.040 --> 00:27:18.720
was helpful.

00:27:22.510 --> 00:27:25.280
Rupert Isaacson: After
university you went and

00:27:27.390 --> 00:27:34.790
worked for and still do a company run by
friends of ours called Art History Abroad.

00:27:35.340 --> 00:27:40.400
And very quickly started taking large
groups of people, not much younger than

00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:48.430
yourself, around Italy on a sort of
modern day version of the Grand Tour.

00:27:49.390 --> 00:27:54.620
Venice, Florence, Rome, the
great works, the great culture.

00:27:57.140 --> 00:28:07.375
Suddenly, you've got A dozen or more kids
all avidly rule breaking all over Italy,

00:28:08.875 --> 00:28:15.695
you're keeping them alive, keeping them
safe, but also reveling with them and

00:28:15.795 --> 00:28:17.375
sort of showing them a bit how to revel.

00:28:18.545 --> 00:28:19.505
Revel responsibly.

00:28:20.155 --> 00:28:20.525
Ish.

00:28:20.875 --> 00:28:23.375
And exposing them to

00:28:25.435 --> 00:28:31.705
this type of culture of art, the
love of art, the beauty of art.

00:28:33.295 --> 00:28:36.595
I remember when I first heard
about AHA, Art History Abroad,

00:28:36.595 --> 00:28:37.315
I was pretty sceptical.

00:28:37.685 --> 00:28:40.885
I thought, well, these are just the
sons and daughters of the privileged,

00:28:41.495 --> 00:28:46.105
going off and doing the Grand Tour,
which is something that has existed

00:28:46.105 --> 00:28:51.765
in, You know, Western culture for
the privileged scions of European

00:28:53.145 --> 00:28:56.145
society for a few hundred years.

00:28:56.715 --> 00:29:00.305
Okay, you know, that's good because
then you get people like Goethe coming

00:29:00.305 --> 00:29:02.955
out of it writing poems and you get
people like Byron coming out of it

00:29:02.955 --> 00:29:06.795
writing poems and great, we have
these poems and that's wonderful.

00:29:07.345 --> 00:29:15.580
But, you know, is it really the same
as Going and working in a heroin

00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:20.040
addicted place in Hong Kong or where's
the value of it comparative to that?

00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:29.010
but then when I actually saw AHA operate
firsthand and I we had Nick Ross on our

00:29:29.010 --> 00:29:34.570
mutual friend who runs it that company
on this podcast so people listening go

00:29:34.570 --> 00:29:42.930
and listen to Nick Ross and his views
on why exposure to this kind of art is

00:29:42.930 --> 00:29:47.720
actually very good for creating kind
of compassionate adults, particularly

00:29:47.750 --> 00:29:52.920
out of people who are going to be
decision makers and people who are

00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:56.770
going to be in authority to some degree.

00:29:56.870 --> 00:29:59.950
Why, why, why does it make them
actually better softer people?

00:30:00.330 --> 00:30:01.880
And I sort of observed this at work.

00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:10.575
I saw how you and that team took
People who could be, have turned into

00:30:11.015 --> 00:30:19.505
really arrogant arseholes and allowed
the humanities to humanize them.

00:30:19.975 --> 00:30:28.435
It was, I saw it work every time and
there's a sort of alumni of people

00:30:28.435 --> 00:30:31.295
who went through that AHA multi week.

00:30:31.905 --> 00:30:36.835
bonding experience who I Still know
are this network of people who actually

00:30:36.965 --> 00:30:40.775
do a lot of good in the world It's a
really interesting phenomenon and I

00:30:40.795 --> 00:30:45.385
think that aesthetics it's an overlooked

00:30:50.810 --> 00:30:53.260
I don't want to say virtue, I don't
want to say quality, I want to say

00:30:53.480 --> 00:31:02.360
perhaps even necessity for the human
soul, in terms of gentling it somehow.

00:31:03.590 --> 00:31:05.030
Give me your thoughts on that.

00:31:05.390 --> 00:31:08.090
Why does art matter so much?

00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.160
Why does exposure to art and
architecture matter so much?

00:31:12.370 --> 00:31:13.440
Because I do think it does.

00:31:16.450 --> 00:31:23.650
Tom Parsons: Okay, I taught on those
courses abroad in Italy with, as you say,

00:31:23.650 --> 00:31:26.570
with a sort of a privileged education.

00:31:27.120 --> 00:31:32.420
At the same time I was teaching
in the National Gallery in

00:31:32.420 --> 00:31:33.650
the Tate Gallery in London.

00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:37.840
Same sort of job actually, which
was basically taking younger

00:31:37.840 --> 00:31:39.970
groups around those collections.

00:31:40.070 --> 00:31:45.300
And in that, and in those cases, it
was not the independent school crowd.

00:31:45.300 --> 00:31:45.730
It was.

00:31:47.005 --> 00:31:48.535
You know, ordinary kids.

00:31:49.055 --> 00:31:50.955
And the,

00:31:53.495 --> 00:31:56.685
in effect pitched,
pitched in the right way.

00:31:59.395 --> 00:32:04.195
I, I remember, actually I
remember something Nick saying

00:32:04.195 --> 00:32:06.595
to me years and years ago, right
at the beginning of it all.

00:32:06.695 --> 00:32:11.595
Just pointing out that our culture and
this was, this was true 30 years ago.

00:32:12.105 --> 00:32:13.375
It's more true now.

00:32:13.755 --> 00:32:14.525
More than ever.

00:32:14.795 --> 00:32:18.275
Anyway, our culture is, is
an intensely visual one.

00:32:18.845 --> 00:32:26.535
Therefore, actually we all are, without
necessarily realizing it extremely

00:32:26.825 --> 00:32:29.845
sensitive to visual information.

00:32:30.195 --> 00:32:32.975
And we're, we're, we're
fluent, we're articulate.

00:32:33.035 --> 00:32:36.855
It's a, it's a language that we
yeah, that, that we're fluent in,

00:32:36.855 --> 00:32:41.255
even if, even if we're not sort of
conscious of the fact, so use that,

00:32:41.695 --> 00:32:43.775
use that as a, as a, as a way in.

00:32:44.375 --> 00:32:45.185
So that's one thing.

00:32:45.325 --> 00:32:47.805
Secondly so even in
other words, even if a.

00:32:48.790 --> 00:32:53.650
You know, you're, you're
showing a group of 15 year olds

00:32:53.650 --> 00:32:55.720
from you know, from a, a, a,

00:32:58.790 --> 00:33:02.290
who've never been to the National
Gallery, you're showing them a 15th

00:33:02.330 --> 00:33:05.830
century painting, actually there
are they'll be able to read it.

00:33:06.125 --> 00:33:12.775
They can, they can read shape, color,
and design because of advertising and

00:33:12.785 --> 00:33:14.625
you can, so that's, that's a way in.

00:33:15.175 --> 00:33:18.765
Then the second way in is, is through
stories either the story that's being

00:33:18.765 --> 00:33:20.705
told or a story relating to the artist.

00:33:23.085 --> 00:33:30.815
Third, third, you can, you can always
hook, get people to listen to you if you

00:33:31.455 --> 00:33:34.125
talk either about violence or about sex.

00:33:34.565 --> 00:33:37.405
And both, both of those things are pretty

00:33:37.465 --> 00:33:38.972
Rupert Isaacson: Crashers and blowjobs.

00:33:38.972 --> 00:33:39.474
Yeah.

00:33:39.475 --> 00:33:39.975
It's all stories.

00:33:40.275 --> 00:33:40.555
Tom Parsons: Yeah.

00:33:40.685 --> 00:33:45.495
Endemic to, to the to the stories
that, that animate European art anyway.

00:33:45.495 --> 00:33:47.425
So that, those are your ways in.

00:33:48.030 --> 00:33:54.580
And from there, actually, you
then quite quickly arrive at

00:33:56.970 --> 00:34:03.975
conversations about About big
stuff, about, about the important

00:34:03.975 --> 00:34:10.725
things about life, death suffering
meaning purpose, moral truth.

00:34:11.225 --> 00:34:17.685
So, so whether I was doing that in,
in, in Italy, in, in the, you know,

00:34:17.715 --> 00:34:22.185
beautiful surroundings, Florence or
Rome or wherever, or in a gallery in

00:34:22.185 --> 00:34:29.060
London, it was, different audiences,
but that was the, as I say visual, if

00:34:29.060 --> 00:34:32.750
you like, visual literacy leading to

00:34:37.390 --> 00:34:43.240
discussion, conversation,
thought, and argument about

00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:44.540
about stuff that's important.

00:34:44.950 --> 00:34:49.180
And, and that's, that's
rather a, rather a You think

00:34:49.180 --> 00:34:51.442
Rupert Isaacson: in particular
that the number of pictures

00:34:51.442 --> 00:34:55.644
of the passion that people get
exposed to when they go and see.

00:34:56.144 --> 00:34:57.224
Particularly Renaissance art.

00:34:57.704 --> 00:34:59.224
Do you think that does
something to the brain?

00:34:59.544 --> 00:35:03.264
You know, some people would argue,
God, all these pictures of a tortured

00:35:04.254 --> 00:35:08.504
man being tortured to death, you
know, why are we allowing our kids

00:35:08.504 --> 00:35:12.084
to see these violent, violent images?

00:35:12.084 --> 00:35:14.484
I mean, he's being properly
tortured to death in one of the

00:35:14.484 --> 00:35:15.554
nastiest ways you possibly can.

00:35:15.674 --> 00:35:16.324
There it is right there.

00:35:16.324 --> 00:35:19.864
You walk past it every day outside the
Catholic church as you, you know, oh

00:35:19.864 --> 00:35:21.274
look, he's up there being crucified again.

00:35:21.824 --> 00:35:23.144
To the point we've become numb to it.

00:35:23.284 --> 00:35:27.164
Also, but at the same time I think
that a lot of the, well, I have

00:35:27.434 --> 00:35:31.094
found that a lot of the depictions
of that art, when they're done really

00:35:31.094 --> 00:35:35.264
beautifully, the idea of universal
suffering somehow really comes through.

00:35:35.864 --> 00:35:43.274
Do you have a is there a picture that
you have, or sculpture, that you've

00:35:45.434 --> 00:35:50.334
consistently found that when you
bring those young people in front

00:35:50.334 --> 00:35:54.944
of it, you sort of see them go, you
sort of see the heart crack open,

00:35:54.944 --> 00:36:01.909
you see, and you know, Now they're
beginning to understand compassion.

00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:02.449
Like,

00:36:04.669 --> 00:36:08.679
are there certain images that you.

00:36:09.299 --> 00:36:13.049
That you can spring to mind,
that, that, that we, and maybe

00:36:13.049 --> 00:36:13.869
ones we should know about.

00:36:14.449 --> 00:36:19.439
Tom Parsons: I would say Masaccio's
Trinity, in Santa Maria Novella

00:36:19.439 --> 00:36:21.869
in, in Florence, as a crucifixion.

00:36:21.919 --> 00:36:22.069
Tell

00:36:22.069 --> 00:36:24.199
Rupert Isaacson: us that slowly
for, for people that can't

00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:25.909
follow Italian names, so well.

00:36:25.919 --> 00:36:26.059
Okay,

00:36:26.309 --> 00:36:27.419
Tom Parsons: so Masaccio.

00:36:27.649 --> 00:36:28.129
Masaccio?

00:36:28.130 --> 00:36:30.509
Masaccio, masaccio?

00:36:30.869 --> 00:36:32.659
Yeah, M A S A C C

00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:33.059
Rupert Isaacson: I O.

00:36:33.289 --> 00:36:35.549
Well, I could do with a bit of
a Masaccio right now, I've got

00:36:35.569 --> 00:36:37.719
my Tension in the shoulders.

00:36:38.109 --> 00:36:38.349
Miso.

00:36:38.349 --> 00:36:39.609
Okay.

00:36:39.729 --> 00:36:39.789
Tom Parsons: Yeah.

00:36:39.789 --> 00:36:43.059
And he, he painted a, a crucifixion.

00:36:43.089 --> 00:36:47.559
It's a, it's a fresco, so it's painted
onto a, onto a wall in a, in a church.

00:36:48.409 --> 00:36:55.894
The church is holy Mary, new center,
Maria Novella, Uhhuh and it's in where?

00:36:56.289 --> 00:36:57.159
In Florence.

00:36:57.219 --> 00:36:57.519
Okay.

00:36:57.819 --> 00:36:58.809
And when was it painted?

00:36:59.399 --> 00:37:02.099
1426.

00:37:02.189 --> 00:37:04.679
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's
15th century, so 600 years old.

00:37:05.064 --> 00:37:05.294
Tom Parsons: And

00:37:05.294 --> 00:37:05.354
Rupert Isaacson: it

00:37:05.484 --> 00:37:10.304
Tom Parsons: is and it's a very,
it's a very early example of, of,

00:37:10.574 --> 00:37:11.854
Rupert Isaacson: I'm going
to look it up on my phone as

00:37:11.854 --> 00:37:12.344
Tom Parsons: you're talking.

00:37:12.424 --> 00:37:12.754
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.

00:37:13.304 --> 00:37:14.234
Tom Parsons: Renaissance art.

00:37:14.244 --> 00:37:19.874
It's one of the first one of the
earliest examples of a European artist

00:37:20.494 --> 00:37:23.864
demonstrating mastery of perspective.

00:37:24.364 --> 00:37:30.714
And so in that technical respect,
it's, it's of great historical

00:37:30.714 --> 00:37:36.214
significance, but more than, more than
that is the way in which Masaccio has

00:37:36.484 --> 00:37:40.484
employed geometry because Perspective.

00:37:40.964 --> 00:37:48.474
When you arrange your diagonals to
meet at a vanishing point to create the

00:37:48.474 --> 00:37:55.834
illusion of three dimensional space or
depth it's basically a geometric technique

00:37:56.944 --> 00:38:06.144
and Masaccio has used geometry as a way,
not only of creating the illusion of, of

00:38:06.144 --> 00:38:12.304
space, of three, three dimensions, which
is, You know, which still fascinates

00:38:12.304 --> 00:38:18.384
us, it's magnetic, you know, we're still
doing it with, with, with VR but anyway,

00:38:18.404 --> 00:38:23.164
back so there's, there's that sort of
technical sort of tour de force aspect of

00:38:23.174 --> 00:38:30.254
that painting but more to the point, or on
top of that, he's used, if you like, the

00:38:30.254 --> 00:38:34.864
language of geometry as a way of painting.

00:38:35.264 --> 00:38:45.414
expressing visually what I would call the,
or relating or linking the language of

00:38:45.414 --> 00:38:49.434
geometry with the the sort of theological
story that he's, that he's telling.

00:38:49.604 --> 00:38:51.824
And in this particular
picture, it's the crucifixion.

00:38:51.824 --> 00:38:56.854
You've got God the Father standing
behind and holding the arms of the cross.

00:38:57.404 --> 00:39:02.164
So it's not a description of what
actually happened, it's a, it's an

00:39:02.164 --> 00:39:04.574
allegorical portrayal of the crucifixion.

00:39:05.884 --> 00:39:09.044
And God the Father's not even
looking, he's looking straight

00:39:09.154 --> 00:39:11.734
out, not even looking at you,
he's looking over your head.

00:39:12.394 --> 00:39:22.309
And it's as if the it's, to my mind at
least, anyway, it's, it's as if What

00:39:22.309 --> 00:39:27.349
mass is communicating is, is this, that
the, that the message of salvation,

00:39:27.409 --> 00:39:36.399
which Christ's sacrifice on the cross
made real and available to those who

00:39:36.669 --> 00:39:42.159
choose to believe is forever is eternal.

00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:44.299
And

00:39:46.409 --> 00:39:52.809
similarly, if you like, the,
the, the axioms of mathematics

00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:55.019
in within their own terms are.

00:39:55.449 --> 00:39:59.949
You know, eternally true,
two plus two equals four, it

00:39:59.949 --> 00:40:01.369
always will, it always did.

00:40:01.869 --> 00:40:07.659
And, and Masaccio's put these
two things together to give that

00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:11.759
message extraordinary impact.

00:40:12.309 --> 00:40:12.909
And it's,

00:40:15.399 --> 00:40:18.429
it's sort of deliberately
absolutely unemotional.

00:40:21.319 --> 00:40:24.709
Deliberately so, and, and all
the more powerful for that.

00:40:24.729 --> 00:40:28.049
So, yeah, that's, that's
a work which tends to.

00:40:29.074 --> 00:40:30.304
Tends to work every time.

00:40:30.394 --> 00:40:30.724
I would say

00:40:30.724 --> 00:40:31.564
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's interesting.

00:40:31.564 --> 00:40:33.934
I'm reading up on, I, I've been
looking at the painting on my

00:40:33.934 --> 00:40:35.104
phone while you've been talking.

00:40:35.224 --> 00:40:37.074
It's beautiful, of course.

00:40:37.224 --> 00:40:44.614
But ma Macio, M-A-S-A-C-C-I-O
is a nickname.

00:40:44.884 --> 00:40:45.634
it's a nickname.

00:40:46.354 --> 00:40:48.214
Do you want I, I, now
I've read what it means.

00:40:48.214 --> 00:40:49.624
Do you want to say, tell
people what it means?

00:40:49.809 --> 00:40:51.679
Tom Parsons: Yeah, it means slovenly Tom.

00:40:52.069 --> 00:40:52.279
Yeah,

00:40:52.279 --> 00:40:53.919
Rupert Isaacson: clumsy Tom or messy Tom.

00:40:54.099 --> 00:40:54.269
Yeah,

00:40:54.549 --> 00:40:54.759
Tom Parsons: yeah,

00:40:54.879 --> 00:40:55.029
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:40:56.579 --> 00:40:58.039
Messy Tom's crucifixion.

00:40:58.069 --> 00:40:59.409
Clumsy Tom's crucifixion.

00:40:59.649 --> 00:41:00.129
I love it.

00:41:00.369 --> 00:41:06.539
And I think that's one of the things I
love about the way you and Nick often

00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:11.144
bring these paintings to life is, you
know, we get a complicated sounding name.

00:41:11.144 --> 00:41:13.689
We go through this with
classical music as well.

00:41:13.689 --> 00:41:15.429
There'll be an Italian
name or a German name.

00:41:15.749 --> 00:41:19.519
And what you don't know is that
That kind of means old socks in, you

00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:21.229
know, German or something like that.

00:41:21.249 --> 00:41:23.079
And it, it humanizes everything.

00:41:23.109 --> 00:41:23.289
Yeah.

00:41:23.289 --> 00:41:26.189
So suddenly it's clumsy Tom's crucifixion.

00:41:26.609 --> 00:41:29.229
And then the other thing, which
is so amazing is that he only,

00:41:29.249 --> 00:41:32.019
he didn't live very long, he
only lived to be about 26 or so

00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.899
Tom Parsons: right.

00:41:35.979 --> 00:41:38.639
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:45.819
an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

00:41:45.819 --> 00:41:50.539
people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

00:41:50.619 --> 00:41:51.459
Are you a therapist?

00:41:51.879 --> 00:41:53.149
Are you a caregiver?

00:41:53.539 --> 00:41:54.549
Are you a parent?

00:41:54.984 --> 00:41:57.014
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:41:58.454 --> 00:42:03.394
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:42:03.434 --> 00:42:05.064
I really didn't know what to do.

00:42:05.264 --> 00:42:10.534
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:42:10.574 --> 00:42:13.374
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:42:13.524 --> 00:42:14.414
Temple Grandin.

00:42:14.614 --> 00:42:16.254
And she told me what to do.

00:42:16.304 --> 00:42:20.544
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:42:20.894 --> 00:42:25.344
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:42:25.604 --> 00:42:29.354
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:42:29.694 --> 00:42:33.594
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:42:34.624 --> 00:42:39.064
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:42:39.284 --> 00:42:41.324
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:42:41.984 --> 00:42:45.341
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:42:45.341 --> 00:42:47.604
It's almost laughably simple.

00:42:48.544 --> 00:42:51.244
The important thing is to begin.

00:42:52.174 --> 00:42:55.324
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:42:55.324 --> 00:42:58.614
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:42:59.644 --> 00:43:02.574
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:43:04.844 --> 00:43:07.349
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:43:07.789 --> 00:43:10.679
Take the online movement method course.

00:43:11.169 --> 00:43:12.539
It's in 40 countries.

00:43:13.149 --> 00:43:15.209
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:43:15.409 --> 00:43:16.179
We really want to know.

00:43:16.189 --> 00:43:20.689
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:24.319
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:43:25.309 --> 00:43:28.759
And then you, you look at what people
like that did in their lifetimes.

00:43:29.169 --> 00:43:32.499
And you think, well, how did, how did,
how did you, the son of an innkeeper.

00:43:34.394 --> 00:43:38.744
No money behind you Having to then
go and find a bit of apprenticeship

00:43:38.744 --> 00:43:41.794
here and apprenticeship there and
live on your wits How did you have

00:43:41.794 --> 00:43:44.974
time to develop skills to that degree?

00:43:46.344 --> 00:43:50.654
I've often wondered about this with
musicians as well from the past Given how

00:43:50.674 --> 00:43:55.134
much effort had to go into just staying
alive, you know, and then I look at

00:43:55.134 --> 00:44:00.154
myself procrastinating over work And I've
lived decades longer than a lot of these

00:44:00.154 --> 00:44:02.294
people, because we do live longer now.

00:44:02.794 --> 00:44:03.984
It's a bit humbling, isn't it?

00:44:04.144 --> 00:44:08.604
To say, wow, you could actually, if
you put your mind to it, you can do a

00:44:08.604 --> 00:44:10.164
whole lot more than you think you can.

00:44:10.974 --> 00:44:11.834
Okay, so that's it.

00:44:11.844 --> 00:44:12.514
That one's in.

00:44:13.884 --> 00:44:15.244
You have to take a trip to get there.

00:44:16.264 --> 00:44:19.364
The kids from the local schools that
you've been taking around London for

00:44:19.364 --> 00:44:25.054
years into those free collections, which
are such an amazing resource, anyone

00:44:25.054 --> 00:44:27.054
can go see them anytime free of charge.

00:44:28.424 --> 00:44:30.384
Is there a painting in the
National Gallery in London

00:44:30.394 --> 00:44:31.174
that we should all go see?

00:44:31.699 --> 00:44:32.189
Look at that.

00:44:32.189 --> 00:44:35.439
You've also known is like that, that
people stop in front of the young

00:44:35.439 --> 00:44:39.439
people stop in front of, and even
that, and effectively kind of have

00:44:39.439 --> 00:44:43.719
to come out from under their hoodies
and give it up for the human spirit.

00:44:43.949 --> 00:44:49.189
Like, is there again a particular
picture which you say we should all

00:44:49.189 --> 00:44:52.359
actually, if we're listening from the
UK, turn our cars around and drive

00:44:52.359 --> 00:44:54.459
straight to the Nat Gal and go look at.

00:44:57.689 --> 00:44:58.559
Tom Parsons: There are loads,

00:45:00.809 --> 00:45:01.789
loads and loads.

00:45:01.939 --> 00:45:02.749
The one,

00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:05.859
the one that.

00:45:06.374 --> 00:45:13.504
I would mention now, because it's
possibly a little bit less well known,

00:45:13.624 --> 00:45:22.204
is by Bellini, a Venetian artist,
1505, and it's quite a small painting,

00:45:22.234 --> 00:45:24.544
it's called the Madonna of the Meadow.

00:45:25.334 --> 00:45:26.504
Rupert Isaacson: I'm
looking it up as you speak.

00:45:26.524 --> 00:45:28.204
Madonna of the Meadow, Bellini.

00:45:28.304 --> 00:45:28.524
Okay.

00:45:29.074 --> 00:45:31.314
Tom Parsons: And so it's, it's
actually a very, you know, it's a

00:45:31.314 --> 00:45:34.334
very modest, it's a modest work.

00:45:34.394 --> 00:45:36.114
Not painted for a public space.

00:45:36.114 --> 00:45:36.794
It's too small.

00:45:36.844 --> 00:45:41.884
It would have been a painted for,
we don't know who, who paid for it.

00:45:42.034 --> 00:45:46.124
But it would have gone into a sort
of wealthy Venetian household.

00:45:46.614 --> 00:45:47.144
And.

00:45:49.339 --> 00:45:51.459
Oh, I love it for many, many reasons.

00:45:51.509 --> 00:45:55.409
Not least actually, because Bellini's
such an old man when he painted it.

00:45:55.409 --> 00:46:05.759
It's, it's he's in his eighties and he's
taken on a new medium, which is oil paint.

00:46:05.759 --> 00:46:08.779
It was oil painting's

00:46:08.799 --> 00:46:12.149
Rupert Isaacson: not around before
that, or he himself wasn't using

00:46:12.149 --> 00:46:17.189
Tom Parsons: one of, he's one of the
first Italians to start using oil.

00:46:17.499 --> 00:46:18.939
What were people using before oil?

00:46:19.339 --> 00:46:22.969
They were using paint where
you mix pigments with egg,

00:46:23.809 --> 00:46:25.709
so it's known as egg tempera.

00:46:26.259 --> 00:46:33.429
But the, basically the, the Northern
Europeans pioneered a different type of

00:46:33.429 --> 00:46:37.399
paint where you're mixing the pigment
with oil, and it's much more flexible.

00:46:38.359 --> 00:46:43.889
It's, it's very slow to dry, but
but, but much, much more flexible.

00:46:44.589 --> 00:46:48.439
Anyway It came through, through
sort of trade connections between

00:46:48.939 --> 00:46:51.679
the Netherlands and Venice.

00:46:51.879 --> 00:46:53.999
Bellini would have sort
of found out about oil.

00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:57.819
And what I rather love is that, you know,
in his old age, he says, right, great.

00:46:57.819 --> 00:46:59.919
Yeah, I'll, I'll start experimenting.

00:47:01.129 --> 00:47:06.889
And so he does anyway, he produces this
picture and it is of, it's Mary seated.

00:47:08.304 --> 00:47:09.234
in front of a landscape.

00:47:09.264 --> 00:47:12.274
The landscape is Venetian,
is the Venetian mainland.

00:47:12.594 --> 00:47:17.174
So, it's a, as it were, a contemporary
landscape for, for Bellini.

00:47:17.174 --> 00:47:20.584
It's got nothing to do with
Palestine or the Middle East.

00:47:21.084 --> 00:47:22.764
And she's got the Christ child in her lap.

00:47:23.214 --> 00:47:29.289
And she's, And he's asleep and she's
looking down at him and got her hands

00:47:29.289 --> 00:47:34.769
sort of, fingers sort of pressed together
in, in prayer, look very thoughtful.

00:47:36.859 --> 00:47:42.969
Anyway behind her, so to, to the
left, there's a, a tree, no leaves,

00:47:43.419 --> 00:47:47.579
and a big black carrion bird
sitting in, in the top of the tree.

00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:53.439
And so basically you, all you do is you,
you sort of say to the class who are

00:47:53.499 --> 00:47:57.749
looking at it, you say talk to them about
the tree and the bird, and it's, it's a

00:47:57.759 --> 00:47:59.699
crow or a raven, and what do they eat?

00:47:59.759 --> 00:48:00.769
Oh, they eat carrion.

00:48:00.769 --> 00:48:01.862
What's that?

00:48:01.862 --> 00:48:03.819
It's, it's things that are dead.

00:48:04.319 --> 00:48:07.829
And you say, okay, look, look
back at the Christ child.

00:48:07.869 --> 00:48:09.319
The Christ child is asleep.

00:48:09.869 --> 00:48:12.999
But if it wasn't, if he wasn't
sleeping, what might he be?

00:48:13.419 --> 00:48:15.319
And then they say, oh, he might be dead.

00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:19.279
And of course what Bellini's
doing is that he's placed.

00:48:19.629 --> 00:48:29.439
The child in Mary's lap in such a way as
to remind us of what we call the Pietà,

00:48:29.469 --> 00:48:35.709
which is the, the depiction of Mary with
the dead Christ in, in, in her arms.

00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:39.859
And then suddenly the whole sort
of painting in a way makes sense.

00:48:39.929 --> 00:48:43.849
It's that she, she has her child
asleep on her lap, but she's

00:48:44.259 --> 00:48:47.809
having some sort of premonition of.

00:48:48.464 --> 00:48:50.184
The future of his death.

00:48:51.264 --> 00:48:55.414
And then these references to death
are there all over the landscape.

00:48:55.964 --> 00:48:57.974
With the tree, the dead trees.

00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:01.629
It's an autumnal landscape,
the carrion bird.

00:49:02.129 --> 00:49:04.079
And there, there are more
sort of correspondences

00:49:04.109 --> 00:49:05.459
between figures and landscape.

00:49:05.909 --> 00:49:18.399
As if to suggest that the message of,
of Christ's life and passion, et cetera,

00:49:19.389 --> 00:49:23.349
are indirectly reflected in nature.

00:49:24.499 --> 00:49:26.739
And the two, the two are
basically the same thing.

00:49:26.829 --> 00:49:26.889
Yeah.

00:49:27.389 --> 00:49:33.439
And it's, anyway, all done in the
most unassuming, gentle, un un,

00:49:33.439 --> 00:49:40.949
rhetorical manner by a, by a man in
his eighties who's mastered a new a new

00:49:40.949 --> 00:49:43.279
technique, a new, a new type of paint.

00:49:43.279 --> 00:49:43.759
It's brilliant.

00:49:43.819 --> 00:49:44.329
It's brilliant.

00:49:45.399 --> 00:49:47.889
Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting
is that people obvious obviously

00:49:47.889 --> 00:49:50.109
didn't live that long typically then.

00:49:50.659 --> 00:49:53.799
I'm looking at, I've been looking at the
painting while you've been talking about

00:49:53.839 --> 00:49:59.959
it and I noticed in the background there's
also the landscape looks parched and

00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:06.609
there's a cow herd not wearing any pants
who's clearly exhausted, who's kind of

00:50:07.319 --> 00:50:11.159
collapsed with his back to the fence post.

00:50:11.749 --> 00:50:12.379
Cow's up.

00:50:13.169 --> 00:50:19.939
around him and there's a, there's a,
a water with a big, with a big sort of

00:50:19.959 --> 00:50:24.679
lever thing clearly meant for by hand,
but behind that there's a figure who

00:50:25.139 --> 00:50:26.349
you think, well, is that the cow her?

00:50:26.399 --> 00:50:28.849
But no, it's wrapped
in, it looks like death,

00:50:31.339 --> 00:50:31.889
Tom Parsons: wrapped in all

00:50:31.889 --> 00:50:35.479
Rupert Isaacson: sorts of weird
shrouds, but equally it could just be

00:50:35.479 --> 00:50:36.829
someone coming to check out the cows.

00:50:36.849 --> 00:50:38.699
You know, I,

00:50:41.409 --> 00:50:43.969
what's interesting to
me is that you've got.

00:50:45.139 --> 00:50:46.559
To 15th century.

00:50:46.569 --> 00:50:54.929
Well, I guess this guy's early 16th
century people here What do you feel

00:50:55.869 --> 00:51:01.099
I've got my own feelings about this,
but why is that such an important time?

00:51:02.869 --> 00:51:08.589
European culture, this, it's the
high renaissance, so it's, but

00:51:08.589 --> 00:51:14.709
it's just before all the really big
stuff takes off in the 16th century.

00:51:14.899 --> 00:51:23.224
What do you think it is about this
15th century stuff that Obviously,

00:51:23.224 --> 00:51:25.724
it's the beginning of perspective and
there's some technical things in there.

00:51:26.854 --> 00:51:32.144
But why is that such an important
time and place to bring people's

00:51:32.144 --> 00:51:35.654
attention to if they're Westerners,
to understand themselves?

00:51:37.594 --> 00:51:38.674
Tom Parsons: I think that

00:51:41.404 --> 00:51:47.844
we, you know, we can, we can talk
about the, if you like, the, the,

00:51:48.074 --> 00:51:49.844
the birth of the modern world occur.

00:51:50.054 --> 00:51:54.944
We can actually sort of choose lots
of different starting points for the,

00:51:55.124 --> 00:51:59.594
for the, for the birth of the modern
world and the world, the world with

00:51:59.594 --> 00:52:04.464
which we are, we, we are familiar,
the one, the one we inhabit ourselves.

00:52:05.014 --> 00:52:08.514
At this you know, you could say, you
might say, oh, it's the Industrial

00:52:08.514 --> 00:52:13.714
Revolution, it's mid 19th century, or
it's it's the, all the, the, or, or

00:52:13.714 --> 00:52:18.054
it's, it's, it's the 20th century and,
and, and sort of modern art and so on.

00:52:18.354 --> 00:52:21.814
But you can equally, you can say,
ah, yeah, Renaissance, the beginning

00:52:21.814 --> 00:52:23.934
of, of, of the modern world.

00:52:23.934 --> 00:52:31.034
It's it, it, it's the when the,
certainly in terms of economics and

00:52:31.044 --> 00:52:38.244
trade and commerce we have a kind of
beginnings of a, of a continental a

00:52:38.244 --> 00:52:42.964
sort of coherent and and effective
kind of banking system on the one hand.

00:52:43.244 --> 00:52:43.514
Yeah.

00:52:44.134 --> 00:52:53.644
We've also got the emergence of a, a
scientific attitude towards towards the

00:52:53.644 --> 00:53:01.944
world itself and, and humanity So a, a
breaking, well, an, an alternative way of

00:53:01.944 --> 00:53:08.694
looking and seeking understanding of how,
of how the world works and how, and our

00:53:08.694 --> 00:53:14.834
place within it using, in effect, what we
would call the sort of scientific method.

00:53:15.804 --> 00:53:19.160
And that's all starting with,
that's all beginning to take,

00:53:19.160 --> 00:53:21.699
to take hold, and it's yielding.

00:53:22.499 --> 00:53:26.699
very, very significant sort of
results, socially, scientifically,

00:53:27.019 --> 00:53:29.889
philosophically, in the

00:53:31.949 --> 00:53:33.729
15th, early 16th century.

00:53:33.879 --> 00:53:42.049
However, at that particular
moment, it's not in conflict with

00:53:44.249 --> 00:53:46.849
Christian, the Christian faith,
it's the two go together.

00:53:47.469 --> 00:53:50.659
And and all of that's going
to get blown out of the water.

00:53:50.819 --> 00:53:56.339
That, that, if you like, marriage
between a kind of rational scientific

00:53:56.339 --> 00:54:02.404
outlook, which in its In its own ways,
is our legacy from the classical world

00:54:02.404 --> 00:54:07.094
married, married to the, to, to a a
sort of Christian ideology and as I

00:54:07.094 --> 00:54:15.884
say, that, that moment is short lived
and the, you know, the Reformation

00:54:15.884 --> 00:54:23.644
didn't help, the Enlightenment certainly
didn't help the church and by the, you

00:54:23.644 --> 00:54:28.327
know, come the, come the end of the
Industrial Revolution, and communism is

00:54:28.327 --> 00:54:34.457
et cetera, the church has never really
recovered and the scientific or rational

00:54:34.877 --> 00:54:39.187
outlook has leapt, leapt forward.

00:54:40.677 --> 00:54:43.577
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things that
always leaps out at me when I'm looking at

00:54:43.607 --> 00:54:52.407
those paintings from that particular cusp,
mid late 15th century, first years, first

00:54:52.407 --> 00:54:57.937
decade maybe of the 16th, is that's of
course when the new world comes into play.

00:55:00.067 --> 00:55:04.187
The New World couldn't have happened
without that banking system, as you say,

00:55:04.227 --> 00:55:14.467
that emerges weirdly out of the sort
of sleeping ruins of the Roman Empire,

00:55:14.927 --> 00:55:19.757
which has been, you know, smashed up
at the beginning of the Middle Ages,

00:55:20.417 --> 00:55:27.137
and It's sort of, you know, a limping,
wounded thing for a while until northern

00:55:27.137 --> 00:55:33.237
kings decide that maybe it's a good
idea if the pope ratifies their rule

00:55:33.257 --> 00:55:36.607
so that they can say to other northern
kings, sorry, I got to the pope first

00:55:36.607 --> 00:55:37.817
and he signed this bit of paper.

00:55:37.817 --> 00:55:39.097
So actually I'm king, not you.

00:55:39.597 --> 00:55:42.897
And then that kind of notarization.

00:55:43.567 --> 00:55:49.117
Brings all this money in, and
then suddenly by the end of the

00:55:49.117 --> 00:55:56.637
15th century, the Church of Rome
suddenly re emerges as a bank.

00:55:57.537 --> 00:55:57.957
Brilliant.

00:55:58.537 --> 00:56:01.587
And that bank subsidizes

00:56:04.507 --> 00:56:05.997
the conquest of the New World.

00:56:06.517 --> 00:56:09.967
The New World, of course, then
re subsidizes Rome back through

00:56:09.977 --> 00:56:11.977
the Spanish and Portuguese.

00:56:12.137 --> 00:56:14.277
And we end up with the
world that we know now.

00:56:15.432 --> 00:56:18.382
But it's, it's so interesting to, for
me to stand in front of a painting

00:56:18.382 --> 00:56:25.452
like that and go, wow, that's right
at the cusp of us, the, this kind

00:56:25.452 --> 00:56:32.382
of Western transatlantic thing that
is the kind of economic and cultural

00:56:32.382 --> 00:56:39.282
reality of our culture, what we
call the West didn't exist then.

00:56:39.552 --> 00:56:41.582
And it's just about to exist.

00:56:42.487 --> 00:56:46.827
Because these guys got it
together as bankers, there, which

00:56:46.827 --> 00:56:50.117
meant that they could afford
to commission these paintings.

00:56:50.387 --> 00:56:52.117
And, ba boom!

00:56:53.477 --> 00:56:56.587
I always find that intriguing to
sort of see a historical moment

00:56:56.587 --> 00:56:58.577
like that and realize that you
can still stand in front of it.

00:56:59.127 --> 00:57:03.177
Okay, so you're, you're, you're exposing
people to this sense of perspective.

00:57:03.177 --> 00:57:09.117
And I, I guess what I was trying to
Get out as to why it's so good for

00:57:09.117 --> 00:57:14.092
the human mind and the human soul
is I'm a great believer And so is

00:57:14.092 --> 00:57:17.442
neuroscience, in the power of awe, A W E.

00:57:18.412 --> 00:57:25.002
There's an increasing number of studies
being done into the mental and emotional

00:57:25.002 --> 00:57:31.752
effects of being faced with something
that you feel is so much greater than you,

00:57:32.422 --> 00:57:38.412
that it makes you feel very, very small,
while that is overwhelmingly beautiful.

00:57:38.702 --> 00:57:40.632
Now, of course, you don't have to
look very hard for that, you just

00:57:40.632 --> 00:57:41.572
have to look outside the window.

00:57:41.602 --> 00:57:47.342
It's called Planet Earth, and it's
anything that mankind produces,

00:57:47.572 --> 00:57:49.442
is always pales in comparison.

00:57:49.927 --> 00:57:53.417
Naturally, even though people have argued
about this over the centuries, it's

00:57:54.367 --> 00:57:58.997
pretty hard to paint Niagara Falls better
than Niagara Falls is Niagara Falls.

00:57:58.997 --> 00:58:01.797
Yeah, you can have a go, but you know,
it's probably probably going to be a

00:58:01.837 --> 00:58:05.517
little bit better, you know, a bit like
the Rolling Stones trying to be James

00:58:05.537 --> 00:58:09.037
Brown in the early 60s in their things.

00:58:09.037 --> 00:58:12.737
I've heard Mick Jagger say, yeah,
maybe, maybe we were trying to do that.

00:58:12.737 --> 00:58:16.327
Maybe James Brown was just a
little bit better than we were.

00:58:17.037 --> 00:58:17.897
So, okay.

00:58:17.897 --> 00:58:21.447
So art and nature and so, but nonetheless,
you can get this with art, I feel too.

00:58:22.347 --> 00:58:27.577
And I do feel that when the humanities
are at their best, art, literature,

00:58:27.617 --> 00:58:30.827
music, it doesn't have to be the old
stuff, it can be the new stuff too.

00:58:32.217 --> 00:58:37.787
It does something to the human psyche,
which makes us kinder, weirdly.

00:58:38.327 --> 00:58:40.497
And science seems to be supporting this.

00:58:40.937 --> 00:58:45.047
What have you noticed with the kids
that you've been helping to teach,

00:58:45.047 --> 00:58:49.477
whether in London or around Italy, so in
these last decades, and a lot of us are

00:58:49.477 --> 00:58:51.237
parents, some of us are grandparents.

00:58:52.777 --> 00:58:55.337
Why is this something that we
should maybe be paying attention

00:58:55.337 --> 00:58:57.487
to in the upbringing of our kids?

00:59:01.267 --> 00:59:04.327
Tom Parsons: Oh, I think that if I mean it

00:59:09.087 --> 00:59:22.332
to feel a sense of connection even
of belonging to something As you say,

00:59:22.332 --> 00:59:26.662
which is bigger than you, but as I say,
but you, but it's, it's, it's not it's

00:59:26.662 --> 00:59:32.082
not alien and it's not inimical as I
say something, but something bigger.

00:59:32.322 --> 00:59:38.952
But nonetheless at the same time,
something that you in, in some

00:59:38.952 --> 00:59:45.222
small way you belong to, you are
part of is inspiring, liberating,

00:59:45.812 --> 00:59:47.392
comforting something like that.

00:59:47.662 --> 00:59:48.982
Perhaps at it, at its best.

00:59:50.752 --> 00:59:56.472
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm looking here at
a study recently published study out of

00:59:56.492 --> 01:00:02.822
university of California as into, or as
a pathway to mental and physical health.

01:00:03.602 --> 01:00:07.662
And here's, here were the, here's
some fine, there's a ton of stuff.

01:00:07.732 --> 01:00:11.532
This is, this is published on pub med,
you know, where you can go and get any.

01:00:14.217 --> 01:00:16.647
medical study published,
you know, blah, blah, blah.

01:00:18.217 --> 01:00:25.187
This is a great quote or then is
associated with a profile of elevated

01:00:25.197 --> 01:00:29.797
vagal tone, reduced sympathetic arousal.

01:00:31.267 --> 01:00:36.797
Increased oxytocin release,
and reduced inflammation.

01:00:38.207 --> 01:00:42.847
All processes known to benefit
mental and physical health.

01:00:42.897 --> 01:00:44.057
This is in the abstract.

01:00:44.607 --> 01:00:52.117
So, those listeners who aren't familiar
with what vagal tone means, your vagus

01:00:52.117 --> 01:00:56.667
nerve, meaning the wandering nerve,
is your biggest nerve in your body.

01:00:56.967 --> 01:01:01.047
Connects your downstairs to your upstairs,
and it touches every organ in your body.

01:01:01.657 --> 01:01:04.267
And it's a bit like the Northern
line in London, because it's got

01:01:04.507 --> 01:01:10.057
two parallel branches that do hit
the brain, but they can also go

01:01:10.067 --> 01:01:10.997
to different parts of the brain.

01:01:10.997 --> 01:01:14.327
So it matters which one of those branches
you get on, because if you want to go to

01:01:14.347 --> 01:01:17.617
Edgeware, you might end up in High Barnet
sort of thing, if you don't end up there.

01:01:17.647 --> 01:01:21.537
But they go from south to north through
London, through the human body, just

01:01:21.537 --> 01:01:23.027
the same touching all the nerve centers.

01:01:23.537 --> 01:01:28.402
When you produce oxytocin which is
the queen of our feel good hormones

01:01:28.422 --> 01:01:31.182
because it's the one that brings
the feeling of connectedness and

01:01:31.182 --> 01:01:32.492
it makes you want to communicate.

01:01:32.672 --> 01:01:35.142
So it's very interesting that
you, you, you talked about the

01:01:35.142 --> 01:01:36.552
feeling of belonging there, Tom.

01:01:37.172 --> 01:01:40.312
If you can create oxytocin in
your gut cause you can create

01:01:40.382 --> 01:01:41.422
it in many parts of your body.

01:01:41.722 --> 01:01:46.442
As the vagal nerve brings it up through
your body to your brain, it touches every

01:01:46.442 --> 01:01:50.927
organ in Tune and they begin to sing like
a choir together so that by the time it

01:01:50.927 --> 01:01:57.037
hits your brain it hits your brain like
a Join army or a joy army a joygasm, you

01:01:57.037 --> 01:02:06.087
know, we have that Feeling and we all have
that feeling in front of powerful nature

01:02:06.177 --> 01:02:13.017
in front of the ocean in front of the sky
in front of Somebody we love in front of

01:02:13.317 --> 01:02:20.277
great art great music like that shamanic
Experience and but what's so interesting?

01:02:21.012 --> 01:02:24.962
Is that it has physical
effects beyond that.

01:02:25.882 --> 01:02:29.312
Reduced inflammation,
that's so interesting.

01:02:29.732 --> 01:02:33.751
Because so reduced sympathetic
arousal is reducing cortisol,

01:02:33.752 --> 01:02:34.832
effectively the stress hormone.

01:02:34.832 --> 01:02:35.452
That's what it means.

01:02:35.482 --> 01:02:39.877
Sympathetic nervous system being That
actually not sympathetic nervous is

01:02:39.897 --> 01:02:44.427
really annoying that scientists had
to try and be clever and call the

01:02:44.427 --> 01:02:46.927
thing that isn't sympathetic The
sympathetic one and the one that is

01:02:46.927 --> 01:02:50.907
sympathetic the parasympathetic one
so annoying they should be shot but

01:02:51.857 --> 01:02:55.647
the idea that it reduces inflammation
because irritation annoyance anger

01:02:58.047 --> 01:03:01.867
Irritation is almost always
a result of inflammation.

01:03:02.067 --> 01:03:06.057
You talk about irritated skin, you
know, so the idea of it calming

01:03:06.057 --> 01:03:11.417
and soothing one as well through
this sort of oxytocin release and

01:03:11.417 --> 01:03:12.957
making us bond with each other.

01:03:13.787 --> 01:03:17.447
So it, I've definitely observed
this watching you teach.

01:03:17.997 --> 01:03:25.287
And I've observed you connect people like
this to very, very beautiful human works.

01:03:26.447 --> 01:03:27.557
I tend to do it with nature.

01:03:28.737 --> 01:03:34.827
And I see the same reaction happen in
these people that I would expect to happen

01:03:35.727 --> 01:03:41.307
with the autumn colors in the forest or
a beautiful horse or seeing the Serengeti

01:03:41.307 --> 01:03:44.537
migration or whatever, a great sunset.

01:03:46.207 --> 01:03:49.397
So it's interesting to know this.

01:03:49.417 --> 01:03:52.287
And then the, the other
aspect, which I have.

01:03:54.202 --> 01:04:01.712
What I've always been so impressed by
is your ability to bring play in, and I,

01:04:01.752 --> 01:04:06.582
you know, the climbing up the Minster,
only one of your many great moments

01:04:06.652 --> 01:04:10.352
I always feel that you make it playful,
and this is so important when we're

01:04:10.352 --> 01:04:17.322
learning you brought a great sense of play
to these Italian things in particular.

01:04:18.132 --> 01:04:21.182
Could you tell us a little bit
about the Colosseum Club, please?

01:04:25.022 --> 01:04:25.812
Tom Parsons: Yes.

01:04:26.072 --> 01:04:26.882
Oh dear.

01:04:27.162 --> 01:04:29.152
This is quite irresponsible.

01:04:29.262 --> 01:04:32.402
I wonder who's listening to this.

01:04:32.402 --> 01:04:32.972
Nevermind.

01:04:33.432 --> 01:04:34.832
This was something which

01:04:37.182 --> 01:04:40.362
I actually, I never
did this with students.

01:04:40.542 --> 01:04:43.312
Because it really was wonderful.

01:04:43.352 --> 01:04:43.492
I

01:04:43.492 --> 01:04:45.462
Rupert Isaacson: remember doing this
with you, but I wasn't a student.

01:04:45.802 --> 01:04:49.832
Tom Parsons: Wonderfully I mean, a
wonderful experience, but it was.

01:04:49.897 --> 01:04:53.756
You know, it was kind of illegal
and pretty irresponsible.

01:04:53.806 --> 01:04:59.186
Anyway, yeah, no, what it, what
it involved was with, the first

01:04:59.186 --> 01:05:03.316
time I, I I climbed into the
Coliseum was with my friend Robert.

01:05:03.446 --> 01:05:03.886
We're talking

01:05:03.886 --> 01:05:05.056
Rupert Isaacson: about the Roman Coliseum.

01:05:05.621 --> 01:05:06.011
Tom Parsons: Yeah.

01:05:06.451 --> 01:05:07.786
Rupert Isaacson: In Rome, the big coine.

01:05:07.786 --> 01:05:07.787
Okay.

01:05:08.641 --> 01:05:09.481
Tom Parsons: Robert and I

01:05:09.601 --> 01:05:11.461
Rupert Isaacson: how do you climb
into, how did you climb into it?

01:05:11.461 --> 01:05:12.781
What's climbing into it even mean?

01:05:14.771 --> 01:05:18.661
Tom Parsons: I would like to clarify
that this is a num This is years ago.

01:05:18.841 --> 01:05:19.081
Yeah.

01:05:19.081 --> 01:05:26.221
And the Italian authorities
are much, much more strict.

01:05:26.791 --> 01:05:29.881
And we'll get really cross.

01:05:29.911 --> 01:05:30.121
Yeah,

01:05:30.171 --> 01:05:32.791
Rupert Isaacson: this is before the
days of video cameras and all of that.

01:05:32.791 --> 01:05:33.891
Yes, absolutely.

01:05:33.971 --> 01:05:35.571
Explain to us what it involved.

01:05:35.661 --> 01:05:40.361
Tom Parsons: What it involved was, was
finding a, basically it had high, high,

01:05:40.361 --> 01:05:46.761
high metal, kind of like scaffolding pole
bars, which actually were quite, were, you

01:05:46.762 --> 01:05:49.541
know, weren't that impossible to get over.

01:05:49.621 --> 01:05:49.911
Rupert Isaacson: How high were

01:05:49.911 --> 01:05:50.131
Tom Parsons: they?

01:05:52.181 --> 01:05:53.011
Three meters.

01:05:53.111 --> 01:05:56.133
I mean, quite high, but but you,
but they, but you But scalable?

01:05:56.393 --> 01:06:00.293
You had a purchase on the you had, there
was a purchase so you, you could get over.

01:06:00.333 --> 01:06:07.783
Anyway, Robert and I went in late,
late, late, late, late, and climbed in

01:06:07.783 --> 01:06:14.023
the dark to the, towards the top where
we sat and and read our Byron, read

01:06:14.053 --> 01:06:18.253
Byron's description of the Coliseum by
moonlight, which was in fact Was it a

01:06:18.253 --> 01:06:19.533
Rupert Isaacson: moonlit
night that you went up there?

01:06:19.893 --> 01:06:20.103
Tom Parsons: In.

01:06:20.313 --> 01:06:21.003
Yes, it was.

01:06:21.003 --> 01:06:23.583
And, and that, and that was
our, that was our motor for

01:06:23.583 --> 01:06:24.603
going in, in the first place.

01:06:24.603 --> 01:06:31.063
It was knowing that Byron had been, been
there by night, 200 years earlier, or and,

01:06:33.603 --> 01:06:36.503
and it was absolutely extraordinary.

01:06:36.503 --> 01:06:39.563
It was a ghostly, you know,
it was empty, it was dark.

01:06:39.923 --> 01:06:41.963
And it was, you know, it was.

01:06:42.513 --> 01:06:47.383
It was also something of a relief to
find a young Roman couple having a

01:06:47.433 --> 01:06:51.833
jolly good snog at the top who who broke
away from their snog and engaged us

01:06:51.833 --> 01:06:54.703
in a really quite a loud conversation.

01:06:54.703 --> 01:06:57.853
They had absolutely no qualms
about being, being caught.

01:06:58.583 --> 01:07:00.343
And and it did seem.

01:07:01.688 --> 01:07:05.558
As though the, there was a security
guard who probably knew we were

01:07:05.558 --> 01:07:10.238
there and had no intention whatsoever
of confronting, I guess, four

01:07:10.238 --> 01:07:13.338
people, four against one, whatever.

01:07:13.548 --> 01:07:19.518
Yeah, so we did that and then I know
you and I went in and I have been back

01:07:19.568 --> 01:07:21.762
not for, not for a number of years now.

01:07:21.762 --> 01:07:23.718
I don't think I'd do it now.

01:07:23.818 --> 01:07:23.998
Well,

01:07:23.998 --> 01:07:28.258
Rupert Isaacson: here's, here's my,
here's my Interpretation of it because

01:07:28.478 --> 01:07:32.198
I remember when you said, okay, Ru,
there's this thing we got to do and we

01:07:32.198 --> 01:07:38.508
were there together and you, it was a
moonlit night and we went to the Coliseum.

01:07:38.508 --> 01:07:38.958
There it is.

01:07:38.958 --> 01:07:40.008
It's vast.

01:07:40.008 --> 01:07:40.698
It's huge.

01:07:42.968 --> 01:07:44.778
And you said, look, you
see that thing up there?

01:07:44.778 --> 01:07:45.628
We have to climb that.

01:07:45.818 --> 01:07:47.948
And I remember looking
at it quite skeptically.

01:07:48.298 --> 01:07:49.458
You've always been the climber.

01:07:49.958 --> 01:07:51.918
I think, I think it was
higher than three meters.

01:07:51.918 --> 01:07:52.888
I think it's more like four.

01:07:53.358 --> 01:07:55.388
And what you left out
was there was a jagged.

01:07:55.843 --> 01:07:58.363
There was a break in the spiky fence.

01:07:58.753 --> 01:08:01.093
There's one spike that had
broken off, so you could kind

01:08:01.093 --> 01:08:02.483
of climb between the spikes.

01:08:02.893 --> 01:08:07.823
But if you put one foot wrong
the spiky bits of the broken

01:08:07.823 --> 01:08:09.513
spike were going to impale you.

01:08:11.133 --> 01:08:17.263
Then we, then we popped down on the
other side, very, with this anxiety

01:08:17.413 --> 01:08:20.443
in my mind, thinking, I'm going to
have to get out over that thing again.

01:08:20.623 --> 01:08:28.283
And That climb up through the
Coliseum to the top and then looking

01:08:28.303 --> 01:08:36.593
down into the arena by moonlight
and then having you read this poem.

01:08:36.953 --> 01:08:39.123
I'm now going to read it.

01:08:39.123 --> 01:08:41.623
It's a bit long, but it's
worth hearing, people.

01:08:42.423 --> 01:08:49.413
And hear the buzz murmured pity or loud
roared applause as man was slaughtered.

01:08:52.158 --> 01:08:53.468
And wherefore slaughtered?

01:08:54.568 --> 01:09:00.238
Wherefore, but because such were the
bloody circus's genial laws, And the

01:09:00.238 --> 01:09:02.468
imperial pleasure, wherefore not?

01:09:03.068 --> 01:09:07.318
What matters where we fall,
to fill the moors of worms, On

01:09:07.328 --> 01:09:09.538
battleplanes or listed spot?

01:09:09.918 --> 01:09:14.698
Both are but theatres
where the chief actors rot.

01:09:15.578 --> 01:09:17.968
I see before me the gladiator lie.

01:09:18.688 --> 01:09:22.928
He leans upon his hand, his
manly brow consents to death.

01:09:23.398 --> 01:09:29.528
But conquers agony and his drooped
head sinks gradually low and through

01:09:29.528 --> 01:09:35.508
his side the last drops ebbing slow
from the red gash, four heavy, one by

01:09:35.508 --> 01:09:38.178
one like the first of a thundershower.

01:09:38.998 --> 01:09:41.438
And now the arena swims around him.

01:09:42.058 --> 01:09:42.748
He is gone.

01:09:43.748 --> 01:09:47.788
E'er ceased the inhuman shout
which hailed the wretch who won.

01:09:48.338 --> 01:09:50.298
He heard it, but he heeded not.

01:09:50.933 --> 01:09:54.243
His eyes were with his
heart, and that was far away.

01:09:56.373 --> 01:10:01.073
He reck'd not of the life he'd
lost, nor prize, But where his rude

01:10:01.073 --> 01:10:05.503
hut by the Danube lay, And there
his young barbarians all at play.

01:10:06.243 --> 01:10:11.583
There was their Dacian mother, he their
sire, Butchered to make a Roman holiday.

01:10:13.163 --> 01:10:14.493
All this rushed with his blood.

01:10:14.963 --> 01:10:16.723
Shall he expire and unavenged?

01:10:16.913 --> 01:10:18.883
Arise, ye Goths, and glut your ire!

01:10:19.903 --> 01:10:25.473
But here, where murder breathed her bloody
stream, And here, where buzzing nations

01:10:25.563 --> 01:10:30.143
choked the ways, And roared or murmured
like the mountain stream, Dashing or

01:10:30.143 --> 01:10:35.103
winding as its torrent strays, Here, where
the Roman millions blame or praise, Was

01:10:35.103 --> 01:10:37.673
life or death, the playthings of a crowd.

01:10:37.943 --> 01:10:42.993
My voice sounds much, and falls
to the star's faint rays, On the

01:10:42.993 --> 01:10:46.293
arena, void seats, crushed walls.

01:10:46.668 --> 01:10:51.278
bowed, and galleries where my
steps seem echoes, strangely

01:10:51.278 --> 01:10:55.048
loud, a ruin, yet, what ruin?

01:10:55.058 --> 01:10:57.048
I'm gonna end there.

01:10:57.318 --> 01:10:59.538
Tom Parsons: Yeah, no,
it's, it's something else.

01:10:59.828 --> 01:11:00.728
Rupert Isaacson: It's something else.

01:11:00.788 --> 01:11:05.458
And I remember you reading that poem
and then connecting that, of course,

01:11:05.458 --> 01:11:10.448
with that marble statue called the Dying
Gaul which I think inspired that poem.

01:11:10.998 --> 01:11:12.288
Tell us about the Dying Gaul.

01:11:12.308 --> 01:11:12.968
Where is it?

01:11:13.728 --> 01:11:14.268
And what is it?

01:11:15.508 --> 01:11:20.758
Tom Parsons: The Dying Gaul is a
Roman, a classical Roman statue.

01:11:20.758 --> 01:11:21.778
It's in, it's in Rome.

01:11:21.778 --> 01:11:24.788
It's in the Capitoline Museum.

01:11:24.788 --> 01:11:28.038
So it's not that far away
from the Codiceum itself.

01:11:28.848 --> 01:11:37.248
And it's been on view in that
museum since the, or late 1700s.

01:11:37.828 --> 01:11:39.978
And it was, it's been copied.

01:11:40.328 --> 01:11:41.938
Yeah, countless times.

01:11:42.208 --> 01:11:45.418
So, but anyway, the, the
original is, is there in Rome.

01:11:45.528 --> 01:11:49.108
Byron would have seen it, he would
have known copies in you know, stately

01:11:49.108 --> 01:11:51.428
homes from, from, from England.

01:11:51.968 --> 01:11:55.578
So that statue, knowledge
of the statue printed.

01:11:56.198 --> 01:12:03.948
illustrations of it and so on were very
much part of an English aristocrat's

01:12:03.998 --> 01:12:05.658
kind of classical education.

01:12:06.188 --> 01:12:14.993
So an English aristocratic traveler
such as Byron would it's on his,

01:12:15.263 --> 01:12:17.123
it's on his list of things to see.

01:12:17.123 --> 01:12:18.453
So he, he would have seen it.

01:12:18.993 --> 01:12:21.723
And therefore, yeah,
he, he makes references.

01:12:21.733 --> 01:12:25.313
It's a, it's a basically a new
male nude figure prone lying on the

01:12:25.313 --> 01:12:26.773
ground, but sort of propped up on

01:12:27.243 --> 01:12:28.563
Rupert Isaacson: dying
gladiator, basically.

01:12:28.903 --> 01:12:29.683
Tom Parsons: Yeah.

01:12:29.723 --> 01:12:33.923
Possibly, yeah, no, actually no
one knows if it, is it a gladiator?

01:12:33.953 --> 01:12:35.283
Is it a a warrior?

01:12:35.493 --> 01:12:38.103
No one really knows, but but
certainly dying, there is a

01:12:38.223 --> 01:12:40.203
wound and that there are A

01:12:40.203 --> 01:12:41.633
Rupert Isaacson:
barbarian crushed by Rome.

01:12:41.853 --> 01:12:45.013
Yeah, dying in an
aesthetically beautiful way.

01:12:45.273 --> 01:12:50.003
Tom Parsons: So he, he takes the memory of
the statue and imagines it as a gladiator

01:12:50.133 --> 01:12:53.803
dying in the, dying in the arena.

01:12:54.133 --> 01:13:01.413
But at the same time, he's also describing
the the destruction of the Colosseum.

01:13:02.113 --> 01:13:05.403
And with that, so he's
imagining what it was like.

01:13:05.923 --> 01:13:10.843
in its heyday, but he's contrasting
that with its present condition.

01:13:10.883 --> 01:13:13.303
He's, he's there in about 1816.

01:13:15.613 --> 01:13:24.038
And He's using all of this to sort of
meditate on if you like the transience

01:13:24.038 --> 01:13:29.938
of human achievement and the inevitable
decline of all empires and, and the

01:13:31.188 --> 01:13:36.388
unspoken kind of presence in all of
this is Napoleon, who's just lost,

01:13:36.818 --> 01:13:38.568
and his empire has just collapsed.

01:13:39.708 --> 01:13:43.828
And and that's the sort
of filter that he's.

01:13:44.513 --> 01:13:51.843
Looking or experiencing the Coliseum
through partly his own classical

01:13:51.843 --> 01:13:57.343
education and his awareness of the
classical past and partly present, very

01:13:57.343 --> 01:14:02.653
present contemporary political events
which makes that poem so evocative.

01:14:02.973 --> 01:14:03.633
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:14:03.693 --> 01:14:08.113
I've seen the Dying Gaul in
its, in the museum, but also.

01:14:08.653 --> 01:14:11.693
As you say, there's so many reproductions
of it because it's such a powerful

01:14:11.763 --> 01:14:17.703
statue and that thing butchered to make
a Roman holiday, all of the references

01:14:17.703 --> 01:14:22.073
that go out from that, even like to,
you know, movies like Roman holiday

01:14:22.103 --> 01:14:24.103
now is that, you know, classic movie.

01:14:24.103 --> 01:14:27.853
And the references from something
like that go up and down history

01:14:28.083 --> 01:14:31.483
and then Arise ye Goths, because
of course it's the Goths from the

01:14:31.483 --> 01:14:33.593
Danube who actually sack Rome in 410.

01:14:34.083 --> 01:14:35.343
Beginning of the fifth century.

01:14:35.843 --> 01:14:37.213
They actually leave it largely intact.

01:14:37.213 --> 01:14:39.643
It's the vandals, vandals who
come along a few years later

01:14:39.643 --> 01:14:40.833
who actually finish the job.

01:14:41.323 --> 01:14:42.503
But that's why we have vandalism.

01:14:42.923 --> 01:14:48.023
But the, what I love about that
experience of the Coliseum Club and

01:14:48.023 --> 01:14:49.543
that's why I wanted you to talk about it.

01:14:51.433 --> 01:14:55.283
The whole point is that, yes,
it, was it, was it irresponsible?

01:14:55.473 --> 01:15:01.363
If you had said to those, that Roman
couple up there enjoying their city

01:15:02.563 --> 01:15:04.783
and the freedom of being able to
climb in there at night because

01:15:04.783 --> 01:15:07.873
they're probably also living, you
know, with their parents apartments.

01:15:07.873 --> 01:15:09.633
And this is a place that they
could go and be together.

01:15:09.653 --> 01:15:13.533
And this is open to everybody
and freedom and that life is

01:15:13.533 --> 01:15:14.573
so much more restrictive now.

01:15:15.213 --> 01:15:19.433
They could not, as residents of
the city, think about climbing in

01:15:19.433 --> 01:15:20.323
there without getting arrested.

01:15:20.383 --> 01:15:20.633
Yeah.

01:15:21.043 --> 01:15:23.913
Things have, the world I feel
has in many ways got narrower

01:15:24.513 --> 01:15:25.993
since those days in the nineties.

01:15:26.093 --> 01:15:26.483
But.

01:15:27.628 --> 01:15:32.678
We, they, like Byron, like whoever
Byron encountered in those ruins, could

01:15:32.678 --> 01:15:36.558
go in there and read that poem and
feel it and have an adventure with it.

01:15:38.228 --> 01:15:43.948
Should young people in particular, but
also oldies like us, not lose the habit

01:15:43.958 --> 01:15:51.038
of taking this playful approach to art
and life and, you know, take that poetry

01:15:51.038 --> 01:15:54.633
book to the place Where it was done.

01:15:55.833 --> 01:15:57.573
Jump through some hoops to get in there.

01:15:58.043 --> 01:15:59.293
Take a bit of a risk.

01:16:00.713 --> 01:16:03.183
Isn't that what makes life beautiful?

01:16:05.853 --> 01:16:06.613
It's,

01:16:07.643 --> 01:16:09.183
Tom Parsons: Yeah, absolutely.

01:16:09.193 --> 01:16:12.603
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

01:16:12.603 --> 01:16:17.283
guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

01:16:17.283 --> 01:16:21.183
just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

01:16:21.203 --> 01:16:24.893
about the relationship with nature.

01:16:25.343 --> 01:16:28.523
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

01:16:29.263 --> 01:16:32.213
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

01:16:32.223 --> 01:16:36.903
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

01:16:36.903 --> 01:16:41.363
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

01:16:42.063 --> 01:16:47.033
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

01:16:47.093 --> 01:16:49.243
what started Live Free Ride Free.

01:16:49.263 --> 01:16:53.043
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

01:16:53.043 --> 01:16:55.533
Land, which tells the story of.

01:16:56.238 --> 01:17:01.628
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

01:17:01.628 --> 01:17:05.788
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

01:17:06.038 --> 01:17:07.298
Come on that adventure with me.

01:17:07.322 --> 01:17:08.192
Tom Parsons: It's, it's yeah.

01:17:08.802 --> 01:17:13.032
You know, a good lunch is also
important, but, good lunch.

01:17:13.042 --> 01:17:15.312
Right, but the, yeah.

01:17:15.972 --> 01:17:16.102
What

01:17:16.132 --> 01:17:17.122
Rupert Isaacson: defines a good lunch?

01:17:18.122 --> 01:17:18.322
Oof.

01:17:18.992 --> 01:17:21.782
I seem to remember our mutual
friend Robert Woodward had a very

01:17:21.782 --> 01:17:24.112
particular Definition of that.

01:17:24.122 --> 01:17:27.012
The same man who introduced
you to the Coliseum Club.

01:17:27.327 --> 01:17:31.027
Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, well,
it's as much the company as as

01:17:31.027 --> 01:17:34.507
anything else, but no, sorry, just
going back, going back to, to,

01:17:34.507 --> 01:17:37.207
Rupert Isaacson: just quickly,
Robert's, Robert's, go, go, go.

01:17:37.347 --> 01:17:39.497
Do you, what he used to say was

01:17:42.027 --> 01:17:45.667
lunch without wine is not lunch.

01:17:46.347 --> 01:17:47.007
It's a snack.

01:17:47.007 --> 01:17:48.567
Yes.

01:17:48.567 --> 01:17:50.127
Yes.

01:17:51.067 --> 01:17:51.847
Words to live by.

01:17:51.847 --> 01:17:53.167
Tom Parsons: Yeah.

01:17:54.047 --> 01:17:57.257
But that, that whole
experience if you like, is.

01:17:57.822 --> 01:17:59.582
I would say again, it's one of belonging.

01:17:59.842 --> 01:18:01.972
Goethe Belonging

01:18:01.972 --> 01:18:03.212
Rupert Isaacson: to one's
past and one's culture.

01:18:03.212 --> 01:18:03.922
Yeah, I see what you mean.

01:18:04.762 --> 01:18:08.802
Tom Parsons: Goethe's journal at
one point has the entry he's just

01:18:08.802 --> 01:18:13.497
arrived in Rome and he says One
becomes, as it were, a contemporary

01:18:13.867 --> 01:18:16.977
of the great decrees of history.

01:18:18.727 --> 01:18:20.447
So it is, it is about belonging.

01:18:20.787 --> 01:18:24.207
Not, not to, it's belonging
to a culture, to a history.

01:18:24.597 --> 01:18:28.797
Belonging to something in
its best and worst moments.

01:18:28.857 --> 01:18:34.807
And it's, so it, it's, it's in many ways.

01:18:35.487 --> 01:18:44.357
A question of identity, of, of finding
or sensing that that your identity is, is

01:18:44.357 --> 01:18:50.147
inextricably linked to something way, way
bigger than, bigger and older than you.

01:18:50.407 --> 01:18:50.977
And that's

01:18:50.977 --> 01:18:58.377
Rupert Isaacson: I want to go quickly a
bit into how you draw on these types of

01:18:58.377 --> 01:19:02.427
experiences of treading the line between
the responsible and the irresponsible,

01:19:02.427 --> 01:19:05.287
the play and the serious in.

01:19:06.307 --> 01:19:09.867
your work with young people because
you've actually spent the last 20

01:19:09.877 --> 01:19:13.087
years in service to young people.

01:19:13.637 --> 01:19:20.747
And then I want to go into finish with
Spoke and this amazing film festival that

01:19:20.747 --> 01:19:26.832
you And now poetry and art that you do
for young people, which is the sort of

01:19:26.832 --> 01:19:29.552
beginning of your next career, which is
sort of distillation of all these things.

01:19:29.772 --> 01:19:33.522
But there's two things I want to
just go to just before we go there.

01:19:34.782 --> 01:19:36.292
You started with Rothko.

01:19:37.112 --> 01:19:39.152
We've been in the
Renaissance and the Baroque.

01:19:39.942 --> 01:19:42.452
But I know that your
great love is Matisse.

01:19:43.772 --> 01:19:44.232
Why?

01:19:44.842 --> 01:19:46.702
Why should we all pay
attention to Matisse?

01:19:47.372 --> 01:19:53.502
Tom Parsons: I spent quite a long time
researching Matisse for a postgraduate.

01:19:54.852 --> 01:20:00.502
Thesis and and yeah, he became incredibly
important to me still and still is.

01:20:01.002 --> 01:20:01.442
Why?

01:20:01.962 --> 01:20:02.882
Because

01:20:02.922 --> 01:20:05.342
Rupert Isaacson: he why
him and not Picasso?

01:20:05.342 --> 01:20:05.892
Why not him?

01:20:05.922 --> 01:20:06.902
Why him and not Dali?

01:20:06.932 --> 01:20:08.137
Why not one of those?

01:20:08.137 --> 01:20:08.392
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:08.392 --> 01:20:08.912
Why Matisse?

01:20:09.032 --> 01:20:10.512
Contemporary guys.

01:20:10.972 --> 01:20:11.042
Tom Parsons: Sure.

01:20:11.102 --> 01:20:13.892
Matisse was an artist,

01:20:16.152 --> 01:20:22.952
actually very interesting, actually in
some ways he left An awful lot of his own,

01:20:25.162 --> 01:20:33.582
of himself out of his art, or to be
accurate he, that there are plenty

01:20:33.582 --> 01:20:37.372
of references to himself in his art,
but they're disguised Picasso on

01:20:37.372 --> 01:20:38.722
the other hand, it's, it's sort of,

01:20:39.102 --> 01:20:39.822
Rupert Isaacson: he's front and center.

01:20:39.842 --> 01:20:40.672
He's the main character.

01:20:40.802 --> 01:20:41.002
Yeah.

01:20:41.042 --> 01:20:41.342
Yeah.

01:20:41.897 --> 01:20:48.527
Tom Parsons: So Matisse was not, not
without a domineering sort of artistic ego

01:20:48.957 --> 01:20:51.517
but he, he did is more discreet about it.

01:20:52.177 --> 01:20:55.257
He was aware of it and he sort
of, found ways to kind of duck

01:20:55.257 --> 01:20:56.877
and dive around it, let's say.

01:20:57.207 --> 01:20:58.167
So there's that.

01:20:58.717 --> 01:21:02.687
There's his okay, he took a
decision early on in his career.

01:21:02.707 --> 01:21:08.087
He's quite a late starter, but he took
his decision early on as an artist to

01:21:08.767 --> 01:21:16.917
concentrate on that, those elements of
his, those elements of, of his life.

01:21:17.237 --> 01:21:25.137
Painting or sculpture or drawing,
which offer a kind of consolation

01:21:25.617 --> 01:21:29.807
to the viewer and he deliberately
Consolation, that's an interesting

01:21:30.407 --> 01:21:38.547
And he avoided confrontation with the
darker aspects of human experience.

01:21:39.522 --> 01:21:45.402
And for this, he's, has been criticized
for, you know, for being a little bit

01:21:45.402 --> 01:21:51.112
pretty or, or superficial or, or a bit
almost sort of willfully naive which,

01:21:51.272 --> 01:21:57.822
which are not really accusations, I
think, that are, that are justified,

01:21:57.822 --> 01:22:07.632
but but I can see why, because actually
the way in which he deployed his chosen

01:22:12.082 --> 01:22:19.322
that sort of visual vocabulary very
often actually leaves a trace of the,

01:22:19.422 --> 01:22:22.552
if you like, of the sort of creative
effort it cost him to get there.

01:22:23.822 --> 01:22:26.702
So, so it's, it's not
just pretty patterns.

01:22:26.702 --> 01:22:27.992
It's it's more than that.

01:22:29.072 --> 01:22:32.862
And that's, that's why I,
that's why I love them.

01:22:33.142 --> 01:22:37.992
Rupert Isaacson: So Joy
Matisse, why is this important?

01:22:39.622 --> 01:22:39.862
Tom Parsons: Okay.

01:22:39.862 --> 01:22:45.462
I'm thinking of a of, I'm thinking of
a la a line in one of, well, in the, in

01:22:45.462 --> 01:22:50.772
the lin little gidding, one of the, the,
the last of Ts Elliot's four quartets.

01:22:50.772 --> 01:22:52.497
Which in which he.

01:22:53.047 --> 01:23:02.587
A condition of complete simplicity,
costing not less than everything.

01:23:03.567 --> 01:23:04.017
Wha?

01:23:05.567 --> 01:23:06.477
Can you just repeat that?

01:23:06.927 --> 01:23:16.777
A condition of complete simplicity,
costing not less than everything.

01:23:16.977 --> 01:23:17.527
Okay.

01:23:18.567 --> 01:23:23.037
And that's a kind of, it's almost
the final line, not quite the last

01:23:23.037 --> 01:23:28.407
line of, of the, the, the final
quartet of the four quartets.

01:23:29.497 --> 01:23:37.137
And it seems to me that, that what
Matisse is seeking is exactly that.

01:23:37.587 --> 01:23:42.047
It, there's an aspiration to
a kind of purity or simplicity

01:23:42.057 --> 01:23:45.347
in his visual language.

01:23:47.247 --> 01:23:51.457
And that is what I would, I
would equate that with, with

01:23:51.837 --> 01:23:55.047
joy freedom, liberty and so on.

01:23:55.597 --> 01:24:03.037
And he does Seek, tune, find, visual
expression of those, that kind of

01:24:03.037 --> 01:24:10.197
ideal through, let's say, editing
out everything that's unnecessary in

01:24:10.257 --> 01:24:12.717
whatever it is that he's actually making.

01:24:14.867 --> 01:24:23.987
But almost every time, whether in
whatever medium he's using, and I think

01:24:23.987 --> 01:24:25.977
this was a deliberate ploy on his part.

01:24:26.417 --> 01:24:31.657
he leaves evidence of the effort
and struggle that it cost him.

01:24:32.157 --> 01:24:39.267
So there are frequently rubbings out,
scratches evident obvious corrections

01:24:40.617 --> 01:24:45.197
that are there on the particularly
in the, in the paintings or or,

01:24:45.257 --> 01:24:47.887
or, or drawings, sculptures too.

01:24:48.537 --> 01:24:52.817
So the, the, so yes, his subject
matter might be a dancing.

01:24:52.892 --> 01:24:55.212
A dancing figure or figures.

01:24:55.792 --> 01:25:01.242
And, you know, a DA dance in a, in
a landscape, you know, that's a,

01:25:02.642 --> 01:25:07.747
a kind of trope for a, a a, a sort
of paradise on earth, let's say.

01:25:07.747 --> 01:25:11.077
But but it can be very glib and and.

01:25:11.662 --> 01:25:13.362
and forgettable.

01:25:13.862 --> 01:25:20.812
But the way Matisse does that is
is, is not and therefore, therefore,

01:25:21.062 --> 01:25:22.482
you know, he's, he's special.

01:25:23.852 --> 01:25:26.352
Rupert Isaacson: He has a particular
painting called Joy of Life which

01:25:26.352 --> 01:25:28.062
I think expresses that philosophy.

01:25:28.682 --> 01:25:32.622
And I know that Picasso
regarded him as a great rival.

01:25:32.652 --> 01:25:35.132
So he obviously made
Picasso feel insecure.

01:25:35.192 --> 01:25:40.542
So Picasso had to diss him in the same
way that Picasso had to diss Dali.

01:25:40.942 --> 01:25:42.522
And he called Dali the great masturbator.

01:25:42.592 --> 01:25:45.482
Because, you know, obviously,
I guess he didn't like other

01:25:45.482 --> 01:25:47.832
people being as good as him.

01:25:48.382 --> 01:25:51.952
And Picasso, as we know famously,
does deal with all the dark stuff.

01:25:51.952 --> 01:25:55.472
And I often feel that
that's just too easy.

01:25:56.152 --> 01:25:59.712
Oh, I'm going to do the darkest, darkest,
darkest, as if that was anything special.

01:26:00.182 --> 01:26:01.322
The world is full of darkness.

01:26:01.352 --> 01:26:02.312
We see it all around us.

01:26:02.312 --> 01:26:06.602
We know what's been going on in the
last, you know, 18 months in the world.

01:26:06.772 --> 01:26:10.502
Just now, you know, it's
darkest all as dark can be.

01:26:11.152 --> 01:26:13.312
But is that really where we want
to put our attention all the time?

01:26:14.062 --> 01:26:16.712
And people who are going through
darkness certainly don't want to.

01:26:17.212 --> 01:26:21.262
So to celebrate darkness, I always feel
for its own sake is almost, it's just a

01:26:22.142 --> 01:26:26.212
bit like social media pricking people's
amygdala so they'll buy your product

01:26:26.212 --> 01:26:27.802
and, you know, pay attention to you.

01:26:28.402 --> 01:26:33.802
Do you feel that when you're drawing
people's attention to Matisse in

01:26:33.802 --> 01:26:38.442
particular, is that in the back of your
mind that you're trying to make the,

01:26:40.592 --> 01:26:42.922
really, or promulgate that
philosophy, I suppose?

01:26:43.702 --> 01:26:44.242
Be joyful.

01:26:46.742 --> 01:26:47.922
Life is short, be joyful.

01:26:47.922 --> 01:26:49.830
I, yes, I mean, I,

01:26:49.880 --> 01:26:53.090
Tom Parsons: Yeah, it, it slightly depends
on the context in which I'm teaching

01:26:53.090 --> 01:26:56.200
him, but, but, but but certainly the,

01:26:59.110 --> 01:27:06.290
yeah, you know, the, the idea that that,
that whatever beauty he however beautiful

01:27:06.290 --> 01:27:10.960
the, the image might be, it's, he, he
does leave, as I say, sort of yeah.

01:27:11.460 --> 01:27:13.950
Traces of the, of, of
the, of the price paid.

01:27:14.450 --> 01:27:14.770
No one

01:27:14.770 --> 01:27:15.960
Rupert Isaacson: said
it would be easy, right?

01:27:16.230 --> 01:27:16.830
Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:27:16.830 --> 01:27:19.780
Which, so there's a sort of, a sense of,

01:27:20.280 --> 01:27:21.600
Rupert Isaacson: Got to
put some effort into it.

01:27:24.660 --> 01:27:28.370
Tom Parsons: Yeah, it, it, it's
a, it, it kind of validates

01:27:28.370 --> 01:27:30.760
or, or enhances the value.

01:27:31.350 --> 01:27:31.730
Yeah.

01:27:32.000 --> 01:27:37.770
Tom Parsons: Of of something
which otherwise might be merely

01:27:38.200 --> 01:27:43.880
pretty or at worst, as I say,
kind of glib and forgettable.

01:27:47.320 --> 01:27:49.060
Rupert Isaacson: There's a fairly
unforgettable story you once

01:27:49.060 --> 01:27:50.280
told me about him and Picasso.

01:27:50.830 --> 01:27:52.920
I think listeners deserve to hear it.

01:27:53.150 --> 01:27:57.910
Tom Parsons: The, I think I know the one,
the, the the, yeah, Picasso and Matisse

01:28:00.130 --> 01:28:04.495
recognised each other as rivals
from the, from the, beginning.

01:28:04.815 --> 01:28:09.555
And, and the relationship
was, was an uneasy one.

01:28:10.015 --> 01:28:16.745
But it morphed from rivalry and, and
sort of, it never entirely lost, I

01:28:16.765 --> 01:28:22.175
think, a sense of competition, but
but it morphed into, into a, into a a

01:28:22.545 --> 01:28:25.165
friendship, but, but not an intimate one.

01:28:25.715 --> 01:28:29.245
One that was absolutely
based on mutual respect.

01:28:29.775 --> 01:28:37.625
Despite the, the, you know, despite
the, the being so different as artists

01:28:37.865 --> 01:28:42.005
and I think as, as, as people, but
anyway, the story is of as both

01:28:42.135 --> 01:28:44.495
now in their, in their later years.

01:28:44.930 --> 01:28:47.220
Picasso's about 10 years younger
than Matisse, but, and Matisse

01:28:47.220 --> 01:28:51.470
is now an old man living down in
Nice, Picasso's there as well.

01:28:51.970 --> 01:28:57.540
Anyway, they, they used to, they used to
meet up, but every now and again, but,

01:28:57.710 --> 01:29:02.740
but such meetings had to be pre, pre
arranged through their secretaries, you

01:29:02.740 --> 01:29:09.370
know, that and Picasso obviously broke
that sort of unwritten rule one time.

01:29:10.255 --> 01:29:19.495
And turned up at Matisse's apartment
with his, his lover was that Francoise?

01:29:20.405 --> 01:29:22.895
I think it was Francoise,
she loved, anyway.

01:29:23.295 --> 01:29:26.515
And they're looking, they're
trying to find where Matisse is.

01:29:26.825 --> 01:29:32.915
Matisse kept, kept the window shutters
drawn to, to protect his eyesight

01:29:33.325 --> 01:29:34.765
unless, unless he was working.

01:29:34.765 --> 01:29:35.385
Anyway, so that.

01:29:35.880 --> 01:29:40.390
Picasso and mistress are
wandering through the rooms,

01:29:41.400 --> 01:29:43.090
wondering where Matisse might be.

01:29:44.210 --> 01:29:50.270
And suddenly, the very elderly
Matisse pops out from behind a

01:29:51.080 --> 01:29:57.540
cupboard and and says coo coo coo
coo coo coo and then stops horrified

01:29:57.570 --> 01:30:00.660
because it's not his secretary and

01:30:03.325 --> 01:30:03.485
Ian.

01:30:03.555 --> 01:30:05.435
Yeah, but it's it's Lydia.

01:30:05.975 --> 01:30:08.705
Sorry, it's he, Picasso.

01:30:08.765 --> 01:30:09.905
Thought it was Lydia.

01:30:09.965 --> 01:30:10.865
And anyway,

01:30:11.175 --> 01:30:12.285
Rupert Isaacson: Matisse
thought it was Lydia,

01:30:13.115 --> 01:30:13.355
Tom Parsons: Sorry.

01:30:13.355 --> 01:30:15.875
Matisse thought it was
Lydia and, and and it's not.

01:30:15.875 --> 01:30:21.665
Anyway, so he's, he's . And so he's sort
of discover, he's sort of, yeah, Picasso

01:30:21.695 --> 01:30:24.995
loved that story 'cause he'd sort of
caught, caught out Matis who never let

01:30:24.995 --> 01:30:27.565
anything like that ever be known or seen.

01:30:28.115 --> 01:30:31.035
In, in public, whereas, of
course, Picasso's reputation

01:30:31.035 --> 01:30:31.975
was quite the reverse.

01:30:32.025 --> 01:30:37.275
But anyway so yeah, that that, that,
that, anyway, that, that, in the end,

01:30:37.315 --> 01:30:41.205
when Matisse died, there's Picasso

01:30:43.215 --> 01:30:47.355
went into a sort of mini
depression and stopped working.

01:30:50.025 --> 01:30:53.915
Oh, I can't remember how long it was
for, but it was, you know, he, he was

01:30:55.515 --> 01:30:59.305
So Mattis is dead, Mattis is dead,
Mattis is dead, and then paints these

01:30:59.745 --> 01:31:04.495
very, these, these, a series of pictures
that are sort of elegiac farewells.

01:31:05.215 --> 01:31:07.115
To, to Matisse, it's, it's.

01:31:07.565 --> 01:31:09.095
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh, I
didn't know about those.

01:31:09.145 --> 01:31:09.925
Let me look those up.

01:31:09.925 --> 01:31:13.415
To Matisse from Picasso.

01:31:14.105 --> 01:31:19.338
Tom Parsons: No, you'd have, they're,
oh, I can't think of the title off

01:31:19.338 --> 01:31:24.694
the top of my head, but they're
interiors of his own studio space in

01:31:24.694 --> 01:31:27.372
a villa that was called La Californie.

01:31:27.372 --> 01:31:32.123
And that they, and there's more than
one, it might be quite hard to find.

01:31:33.318 --> 01:31:37.208
immediately, but but they contain
sort of visual little visual

01:31:37.208 --> 01:31:38.728
links to works by Matisse.

01:31:39.548 --> 01:31:40.878
Rupert Isaacson: Wow, I'm
just reading this now.

01:31:40.908 --> 01:31:44.998
So when the older Matisse died
in 1954, Picasso found himself

01:31:44.998 --> 01:31:47.648
struggling to cope with the
sudden absence of his great rival.

01:31:48.178 --> 01:31:52.178
Yes, he is dead, Picasso said profoundly,
and I am continuing his paintings.

01:31:52.508 --> 01:31:56.478
In the immediate aftermath of
Matisse's death, Picasso did just that.

01:31:57.088 --> 01:31:57.518
Interesting.

01:31:57.518 --> 01:31:58.208
I had no idea.

01:32:00.298 --> 01:32:03.738
I feel also I just realized I was
a bit mean to Picasso there about

01:32:04.118 --> 01:32:07.898
dealing with the dark stuff He was
after all Living through the Spanish

01:32:07.898 --> 01:32:10.088
Civil War and all its atrocities.

01:32:10.308 --> 01:32:13.917
So, I stand a little bit Chastened.

01:32:15.578 --> 01:32:15.818
Yeah,

01:32:15.868 --> 01:32:18.468
Rupert Isaacson: sorry Picasso All right.

01:32:18.468 --> 01:32:22.628
So one of the things which I like
about that story is of Picasso

01:32:22.628 --> 01:32:28.088
jumping out from behind the dresser
thinking it was going to be his

01:32:28.088 --> 01:32:29.638
lover and it wasn't, it was Picasso.

01:32:30.068 --> 01:32:36.558
Is this idea of folly, and I can't
remember which philosopher writes this.

01:32:37.228 --> 01:32:39.518
Is it Montaigne or is
it somebody like that?

01:32:40.728 --> 01:32:47.258
Basically that there is no happiness that
does not contain some degree of folly.

01:32:47.668 --> 01:32:53.838
That it's necessary, it's necessary
for joy, it's necessary for the soul.

01:32:53.918 --> 01:32:55.968
And of course, we've talked about.

01:32:56.918 --> 01:32:59.748
We've, you know, edited a lot of
the silly things that we've done,

01:32:59.748 --> 01:33:01.788
but we've alluded to a couple.

01:33:02.148 --> 01:33:07.968
But you and I have definitely gotten
our PhDs in folly in many ways.

01:33:08.008 --> 01:33:10.388
And it's one of the things actually
I respect the most about you.

01:33:11.278 --> 01:33:17.757
And I always respect this about people
who are willing to not stand on their

01:33:17.758 --> 01:33:20.758
dignity, willing to let their dignity go.

01:33:20.798 --> 01:33:25.318
In fact, I remember once I wish I'd
been there, but you had told me that

01:33:25.318 --> 01:33:29.898
you delivered a homily on dignity at
a party of our mutual friend Robert,

01:33:29.958 --> 01:33:33.668
and then probably fell off the wall
cause you were drunk and or tried

01:33:33.668 --> 01:33:36.978
to jump on top of it and fell over
backwards and exactly as one should.

01:33:37.188 --> 01:33:43.908
It's that kind of thing, which
I think makes people their most.

01:33:44.448 --> 01:33:46.028
Lovable and

01:33:46.078 --> 01:33:47.578
sparks are mutual.

01:33:47.608 --> 01:33:49.288
You know, our feeling of common humanity.

01:33:49.828 --> 01:33:56.258
And it's, it's so important PE that
one can act with some folly in life.

01:33:56.258 --> 01:33:56.558
Otherwise.

01:33:56.588 --> 01:33:58.418
What is li what is life without that?

01:33:58.448 --> 01:34:00.908
I mean, what a gray desert.

01:34:00.968 --> 01:34:03.228
That sounds like otherwise.

01:34:04.128 --> 01:34:06.108
Okay, so we are moving towards.

01:34:06.613 --> 01:34:13.093
The last portion of this, you, you spent
the last 20 years pastoral care being

01:34:13.093 --> 01:34:17.343
a housemaster at Hogwarts, I think,
is it Hufflepuff or is it Ravenclaw

01:34:17.343 --> 01:34:20.633
that you are the hou, well, the house
master of it, it was one of them.

01:34:21.173 --> 01:34:24.683
But for those listeners it was a school
very much like that, that Hogwarts is

01:34:24.683 --> 01:34:28.583
kind of based around these ideas and,
but of course, you know, kids off at

01:34:28.583 --> 01:34:30.413
boarding schools, they're lonely, they.

01:34:30.878 --> 01:34:32.338
They are cut off from their families.

01:34:32.338 --> 01:34:36.118
It's tough and it's not really how
humans are ever supposed to do things.

01:34:36.398 --> 01:34:40.998
So when you find yourself in the pastoral
care of these people, you know, the

01:34:40.998 --> 01:34:45.308
fact that you understand something
about folly becomes massively important.

01:34:45.538 --> 01:34:46.918
Otherwise, what tools have you got?

01:34:47.668 --> 01:34:48.778
To to help them through.

01:34:49.288 --> 01:34:54.238
I also want to talk a little bit just
about false starts So people often think

01:34:54.258 --> 01:34:59.408
when you're doing say a story like this,
this is live free ride free I'm sort

01:34:59.408 --> 01:35:03.888
of celebrating your life because you've
been living this self determined life

01:35:03.888 --> 01:35:08.678
based around following your passions
Making those available to the world and

01:35:09.028 --> 01:35:15.108
I feel everyone who's come into contact
with that myself included benefits It

01:35:15.108 --> 01:35:19.458
can feel like a retrospective often
of Great successors, but I know that

01:35:19.488 --> 01:35:22.548
actually it's the follies and the things
that are not successful that are often

01:35:22.548 --> 01:35:25.798
actually the most important that inform
and then become successors later on.

01:35:25.958 --> 01:35:30.638
So I remember right after university,
you were also booked to do a PhD and

01:35:30.638 --> 01:35:33.708
that's when Matisse came in and you
wrote a very beautiful book on Matisse,

01:35:33.928 --> 01:35:35.238
which is still out there, I think.

01:35:35.498 --> 01:35:38.598
You should go look for Thomas
Parsons book on Matisse on Amazon.

01:35:39.128 --> 01:35:41.068
Published by Studio Editions.

01:35:41.398 --> 01:35:44.058
Big, thick thing, and it's brilliant.

01:35:44.588 --> 01:35:47.418
And I'll plug that again at the end
and all the other stuff you've written.

01:35:47.648 --> 01:35:48.708
Tom's written a lot of books.

01:35:49.128 --> 01:35:51.128
And then that PhD didn't happen.

01:35:51.558 --> 01:35:55.178
And then, right after, there was
also a point where you had your first

01:35:55.178 --> 01:35:56.868
son, Hector, who's my, my godson.

01:35:57.438 --> 01:36:00.818
And you and Katie, your wife,
who's also an old friend of mine.

01:36:01.238 --> 01:36:02.238
One of my oldest friends.

01:36:02.388 --> 01:36:07.508
Moved to Italy and made a kind of bid
for happiness and you were working

01:36:07.508 --> 01:36:11.098
and making yourself a carving out a
life there as a freelancer and then

01:36:11.138 --> 01:36:16.423
boom Katie gets Pregnant with twins
and gotta go home and get a job.

01:36:16.893 --> 01:36:22.253
Some people would have seen those
or interpreted say those two events.

01:36:23.823 --> 01:36:25.613
I start the PhD, I don't get the PhD.

01:36:25.843 --> 01:36:28.483
I want to move to Rome and do this
big thing and I actually have to go

01:36:28.533 --> 01:36:29.843
back to England because da da da.

01:36:30.393 --> 01:36:34.063
In terms of well those, oh, acts
of folly and okay they didn't

01:36:34.063 --> 01:36:35.183
work out or something like that.

01:36:35.183 --> 01:36:37.033
But I don't see it that way at all.

01:36:37.253 --> 01:36:39.663
And I think it's very
important to look at.

01:36:40.168 --> 01:36:44.548
those types of experiences and then see
what they give you in terms of how they

01:36:44.718 --> 01:36:51.878
inform perspective and Helping other
people with what seem at the time to

01:36:51.898 --> 01:36:56.598
be great disappointments, but actually
turn out to be gateways to other things

01:36:57.198 --> 01:37:02.483
Just talk a little bit about those
experiences and how they've helped You

01:37:02.483 --> 01:37:06.943
do what you do and particularly spoke,
which is your sort of next thing.

01:37:07.133 --> 01:37:13.023
How have those Seemingly false starts
or one step forward two steps back

01:37:13.033 --> 01:37:17.163
type thing helped you put this other
thing together, which you're now doing

01:37:19.393 --> 01:37:19.903
Tom Parsons: Okay.

01:37:20.043 --> 01:37:26.493
Yeah the well, okay, so briefly, the PhD
that never got finished through doing

01:37:26.493 --> 01:37:33.553
that I I, I met two, well, three people,
two of whom we've mentioned, Nick and

01:37:33.653 --> 01:37:38.033
Robert and Cargs, and it was through
them that I started teaching in Italy.

01:37:38.033 --> 01:37:39.783
Cargs is Sarah

01:37:39.903 --> 01:37:40.723
Rupert Isaacson: Cargorm.

01:37:41.023 --> 01:37:41.733
Yeah, yeah.

01:37:43.493 --> 01:37:46.913
Tom Parsons: And then, really, as it
was through, well, God, through that,

01:37:46.913 --> 01:37:51.093
I, I, I got my first work contract.

01:37:51.623 --> 01:37:57.528
And Because of those, I would then,
you know, got freelance work at the

01:37:58.058 --> 01:38:02.718
National Gallery in the Tate and so
on and then when, when, when it was

01:38:02.748 --> 01:38:08.048
needed, or at least I felt it was
needed it got me the job at, at the

01:38:08.048 --> 01:38:14.098
school when we suddenly had, had, had
the prospect of sort of three kids

01:38:14.098 --> 01:38:16.868
and, and so actually it all led to

01:38:16.878 --> 01:38:19.308
It all led to, you
know, a good end result.

01:38:20.078 --> 01:38:24.218
Anyway, yeah, so for now Spoke is, is

01:38:24.418 --> 01:38:25.748
Rupert Isaacson: What,
yeah, what is Spoke?

01:38:26.108 --> 01:38:30.258
Tom Parsons: Spoke is something that,
that I kind of began at school and will

01:38:30.258 --> 01:38:33.588
continue with now as I, as I've left.

01:38:34.158 --> 01:38:38.608
I will continue to sort of make
it, make it, make it, make it grow.

01:38:38.908 --> 01:38:45.218
But basically it's a, it's a documentary
competition aimed for school students,

01:38:45.218 --> 01:38:50.718
say up to anyone, different age,
age age ranges up to, up to 18.

01:38:51.018 --> 01:38:52.708
And there are two competitions.

01:38:52.708 --> 01:38:59.298
One is to make a documentary about a, a
work of art the other is to make a short

01:38:59.338 --> 01:39:03.508
film about, in response to a, a poem.

01:39:03.878 --> 01:39:05.588
So in both cases, the, the.

01:39:06.188 --> 01:39:11.698
students choose either a poem or a
work of art and make a film about them.

01:39:12.658 --> 01:39:14.118
They, they send them in.

01:39:14.178 --> 01:39:15.328
I have a panel of judges.

01:39:15.338 --> 01:39:20.108
You've been a loyal, hardworking
judge over the, over the years.

01:39:20.658 --> 01:39:23.408
And and then, and then,
and then people win prizes.

01:39:23.418 --> 01:39:28.788
So, it's, always spoke is
actually 10 years old this year.

01:39:29.278 --> 01:39:32.568
But it's always been quite a
well, it's, you know, it's tiny.

01:39:32.578 --> 01:39:36.488
It's quite modest in terms of the
numbers who enter, and I would love

01:39:36.488 --> 01:39:40.958
to make it something bigger, but I
now have the the time to do that.

01:39:41.498 --> 01:39:44.708
And, So that's, yeah,
so that's what Spoke is.

01:39:44.708 --> 01:39:46.978
Again, you know, that wouldn't
have happened without, I

01:39:46.978 --> 01:39:48.878
guess, me being at school.

01:39:48.878 --> 01:39:50.617
I don't think I'd have thought of it.

01:39:50.698 --> 01:39:52.508
So, anyway, yeah, it's a good thing.

01:39:54.428 --> 01:39:55.728
Rupert Isaacson: What,
where's Spoke going to go?

01:39:55.728 --> 01:39:56.688
What are you doing with it?

01:39:59.178 --> 01:40:03.258
Okay, so it's, it's, it's something, it's
all about art for young people, and you've

01:40:03.258 --> 01:40:05.788
now added poetry, and you've added art.

01:40:06.748 --> 01:40:07.048
Tom Parsons: Where's

01:40:07.048 --> 01:40:07.708
Rupert Isaacson: it going?

01:40:08.048 --> 01:40:09.758
And why is doing something
like this important?

01:40:11.858 --> 01:40:15.318
Tom Parsons: I think that
okay, I mean, I need to focus.

01:40:15.698 --> 01:40:20.187
Effort and time into, into growing it
and, and but the reason it's important

01:40:20.187 --> 01:40:24.167
is because it, it is it's, it's creative.

01:40:25.777 --> 01:40:32.257
It's not restricted by, by the syllabus
and, or by the the, the, the, the,

01:40:32.297 --> 01:40:35.727
the, the exam boards and the sort of.

01:40:36.227 --> 01:40:39.617
That, that side of education
in, within, within school.

01:40:39.637 --> 01:40:45.907
So you, you, the, the students are
completely free to to do, to follow

01:40:46.027 --> 01:40:47.857
whatever path they, they, they choose.

01:40:47.857 --> 01:40:50.827
They can choose any barren,
any work of art, and so on.

01:40:51.427 --> 01:40:53.607
They don't have to repeat what
their teachers have told them.

01:40:53.767 --> 01:41:00.477
They can make connections to
anything, anything at all.

01:41:00.967 --> 01:41:03.817
So that's, that's the sort of
creative freedom that it offers.

01:41:04.367 --> 01:41:08.687
Secondly again, actually, it's almost
where we began, but, you know, ours is

01:41:08.697 --> 01:41:14.472
such a visual, visual culture, and the,
particularly with the smartphone now,

01:41:16.533 --> 01:41:20.123
the making of films is something which
you know, we're doing it all the time

01:41:20.243 --> 01:41:27.703
and especially, I, but for any sort of
student for whom the written word is,

01:41:27.793 --> 01:41:33.173
is not, you know, if that's not their
chosen medium, if they're not comfortable

01:41:33.173 --> 01:41:40.512
there and it is still the main area in
which our education system tests people.

01:41:41.012 --> 01:41:48.976
If actually you want to express your
admiration and understanding of a panel

01:41:48.976 --> 01:41:54.012
or a work of art you can, and you,
you would rather do that visually.

01:41:54.342 --> 01:41:57.152
Spoke gives you that,
gives you that opportunity.

01:41:57.152 --> 01:42:02.392
So, so I thought, yeah, it's sort of,
it, it fits the zeitgeist because it's,

01:42:02.432 --> 01:42:08.332
it's film and it's, and it offers,
it's an opportunity to be analytical

01:42:08.332 --> 01:42:13.512
up to a point but and technically,
technically competent up to a point,

01:42:13.572 --> 01:42:16.752
but most of all sort of creative.

01:42:18.242 --> 01:42:19.342
So that's what Spoken's.

01:42:20.318 --> 01:42:26.108
Rupert Isaacson: It's a really
interesting trajectory, I feel, your

01:42:26.118 --> 01:42:31.088
life, and one that has been governed by

01:42:33.788 --> 01:42:42.613
the Loyal and relentless pursuit of what
matters to your soul, knowing that that's

01:42:42.613 --> 01:42:48.363
going to matter to other people's souls,
and making that available to people.

01:42:48.493 --> 01:42:50.673
And now with Spoke, it's
so interesting to me.

01:42:51.293 --> 01:42:52.203
You're how old now?

01:42:53.653 --> 01:42:53.783
60.

01:42:54.673 --> 01:42:57.253
Okay, you don't look a day
over 80, you look amazing.

01:42:57.643 --> 01:42:58.193
Just like me.

01:42:58.453 --> 01:43:03.248
Right, I'm so used to hearing people
say, Oh, yeah, well, you know, I'm

01:43:03.248 --> 01:43:07.728
retiring now and that sort of like
they're just gonna stop doing stuff

01:43:08.408 --> 01:43:13.518
and I've never understood that My
own grandfather worked until he died.

01:43:13.518 --> 01:43:15.278
I why would you like my dad?

01:43:15.378 --> 01:43:20.408
He's 91 Okay, he's not doing as much as
he used to but he's still doing a lot.

01:43:20.558 --> 01:43:21.918
Why would you stop?

01:43:22.433 --> 01:43:23.383
Doing stuff.

01:43:23.413 --> 01:43:27.153
I can see, you know, it's nice to
have choice about things and it's

01:43:27.163 --> 01:43:28.473
not about how you put your time.

01:43:28.483 --> 01:43:28.773
Yeah.

01:43:28.773 --> 01:43:29.043
Great.

01:43:29.043 --> 01:43:29.503
Fantastic.

01:43:29.873 --> 01:43:34.173
The the desperate edge
of working, relaxing.

01:43:34.523 --> 01:43:35.063
Wonderful.

01:43:35.083 --> 01:43:35.693
Bring that on.

01:43:36.833 --> 01:43:42.893
But to not work just seems to
me we're born, I feel, to work.

01:43:43.383 --> 01:43:47.933
So I weirdly feel that with Spoke, even
though I've been seeing you grow it

01:43:47.943 --> 01:43:51.213
for the last 10 years, I feel you're
actually just on the cusp now of

01:43:51.243 --> 01:43:53.963
possibly the busiest period of your life.

01:43:55.203 --> 01:43:55.863
as you retire.

01:43:56.413 --> 01:43:58.973
And I think you've already
actually helped some young people

01:43:59.383 --> 01:44:00.693
establish themselves with this.

01:44:01.553 --> 01:44:07.283
Have some, you, you actually told
me of one or two who've gone on to

01:44:07.283 --> 01:44:11.503
become filmmakers having got a bit
of their early start with Spoke now

01:44:11.503 --> 01:44:13.093
on your judges panel, for example.

01:44:13.503 --> 01:44:14.953
Tom Parsons: Yeah,
there's, yeah, there's one.

01:44:15.863 --> 01:44:16.183
Tell me a

01:44:16.183 --> 01:44:17.163
Rupert Isaacson: little bit about her.

01:44:18.563 --> 01:44:21.943
Tom Parsons: Amber, Amber
Bardell, and she won one of the

01:44:21.943 --> 01:44:23.863
very early competitions with.

01:44:24.433 --> 01:44:28.633
A film she made on a work by Banksy.

01:44:29.743 --> 01:44:30.243
Okay.

01:44:30.243 --> 01:44:35.853
And it, and you know, made,
just beautifully filmed.

01:44:36.223 --> 01:44:40.163
Really very, made, and
clearly made at home.

01:44:40.443 --> 01:44:42.813
And there's some great
shots of the garden shed.

01:44:43.293 --> 01:44:43.663
And so on.

01:44:43.783 --> 01:44:48.833
But anyway so, you know, using
using, just using what was available

01:44:49.003 --> 01:44:53.293
got actually quite limited sort of
means available in terms of place.

01:44:53.753 --> 01:44:58.303
But, but in terms of the, the structuring
of the film and the editing and the

01:44:58.303 --> 01:45:02.273
camera shots and so on and so forth, it
was really good, really, really good.

01:45:02.383 --> 01:45:03.993
It's, it's up there.

01:45:04.583 --> 01:45:10.443
On the spoke website, the only problem
being that you need to email me first

01:45:10.763 --> 01:45:16.253
to get the password to watch it because
it's not on none of the films at the

01:45:16.253 --> 01:45:22.743
moment are immediately accessible because
I'm slightly worried about copyright.

01:45:23.073 --> 01:45:23.613
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:45:24.003 --> 01:45:26.113
Tom Parsons: But but anyway,
but it's certainly viewable

01:45:26.223 --> 01:45:29.013
for, you know, anyone who Do you

01:45:29.013 --> 01:45:30.633
Rupert Isaacson: remember
what year it was that she won?

01:45:31.383 --> 01:45:31.803
Tom Parsons: Tw

01:45:34.813 --> 01:45:35.793
no, not off the top of my head.

01:45:35.793 --> 01:45:37.653
16, 2016 maybe?

01:45:37.663 --> 01:45:38.093
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:45:38.503 --> 01:45:39.803
Because I'm looking her up now.

01:45:39.803 --> 01:45:41.213
She's there on IMDB.

01:45:41.653 --> 01:45:41.973
Yeah.

01:45:42.103 --> 01:45:45.393
And there's a work by her called
Art as Catharsis, you know,

01:45:45.393 --> 01:45:46.743
it's the healing part of art.

01:45:47.083 --> 01:45:47.383
Yeah, yeah.

01:45:47.383 --> 01:45:48.123
Rupert Isaacson: Nature of Art on there.

01:45:48.123 --> 01:45:50.206
She's obviously well on her way.

01:45:50.206 --> 01:45:50.951
Amber Bardell.

01:45:50.951 --> 01:45:51.323
Yeah.

01:45:51.323 --> 01:45:51.696
Yeah.

01:45:51.696 --> 01:45:55.446
So it's interesting how all these
experiences and all this pursuit

01:45:55.506 --> 01:46:01.006
of fulfillment and joy now you
are helping people who are our age

01:46:01.006 --> 01:46:04.316
when we were beginning all this,
get a hand up on top of the wall.

01:46:04.866 --> 01:46:10.536
So much of it I feel is about quality
of life and we, we are in a day and age

01:46:10.596 --> 01:46:13.016
where it's a good thing that we're having.

01:46:13.431 --> 01:46:15.881
The discussions we never used
to have about mental health.

01:46:16.491 --> 01:46:21.401
And at the same time, I sometimes feel
that those discussions have become so loud

01:46:22.071 --> 01:46:28.151
that they almost drown out the value of.

01:46:28.476 --> 01:46:33.756
The pursuit of joy for its own sake, which
of course is part of good mental health.

01:46:34.336 --> 01:46:38.366
What has been, I think, the untold
story through your whole thing

01:46:38.536 --> 01:46:39.886
has been this thing of service.

01:46:40.476 --> 01:46:51.966
So you, you, you get religion because the
messages of the Christ message, as well

01:46:51.966 --> 01:46:56.136
as a bit of a desire to rebel against
your secular parents resonate on this deep

01:46:56.236 --> 01:46:58.536
ideological level, idealistical level.

01:46:58.986 --> 01:47:03.066
This leads you to go out
and almost get burning.

01:47:03.956 --> 01:47:08.616
Walk oil thrown all over your face
helping heroin addicts coming out of the

01:47:08.616 --> 01:47:12.036
street in Hong Kong and a lot of those
would have been triad gang people and

01:47:12.036 --> 01:47:20.736
so on and then you put that down, but
you keep your idealism and You take off

01:47:20.736 --> 01:47:27.966
after art and you pursue it and you open
this up school kids in London Privileged

01:47:27.976 --> 01:47:32.746
kids in Italy everyone everyone who
comes in front of you gets that side,

01:47:32.746 --> 01:47:34.816
it gets, gets their eyes open this way.

01:47:35.736 --> 01:47:43.586
And then you take on the pastoral
care of the youth at Hogwarts and

01:47:43.586 --> 01:47:47.786
have to do that for 20 years, which
is no mean feat to be a housemaster,

01:47:48.146 --> 01:47:54.746
effectively a parent in absentia,
while making the world of aesthetics

01:47:54.746 --> 01:47:59.796
and awe available for those beautiful
neurological effects we explored earlier.

01:48:01.031 --> 01:48:05.281
And now here you are with The
Spoke offering young people a way,

01:48:05.621 --> 01:48:08.001
basically, to pursue their careers.

01:48:10.251 --> 01:48:13.691
My friend, that's a self actualised
laugh if I ever heard one.

01:48:14.241 --> 01:48:19.961
So, we're right at the sort of
two hour, probably gone over mark.

01:48:20.611 --> 01:48:23.981
So I think we should leave it there,
but I want people to know how to

01:48:24.396 --> 01:48:25.916
Contact you get in touch with spoke.

01:48:25.946 --> 01:48:26.916
There'll be people listening.

01:48:26.926 --> 01:48:34.136
You've got kids who want to enter these
competitions so If you will could,

01:48:34.486 --> 01:48:39.906
could you read out the various websites
whereby people can find you and your

01:48:39.906 --> 01:48:44.816
work and your lectures in London, which
are happening on a regular basis and

01:48:45.396 --> 01:48:49.636
are brilliant and entertaining and funny
and wonderful, and just let people know

01:48:49.636 --> 01:48:51.016
where they can come and get a bit of Tom.

01:48:51.836 --> 01:48:52.106
Tom Parsons: Okay.

01:48:52.346 --> 01:48:53.096
Thank you Ray.

01:48:53.196 --> 01:48:54.876
So spoke is.

01:48:55.426 --> 01:48:56.226
Www.

01:48:56.306 --> 01:48:56.906
spokecompetition.

01:49:01.806 --> 01:49:02.156
com.

01:49:04.966 --> 01:49:05.226
Rupert Isaacson: Spokecompetition.

01:49:05.276 --> 01:49:05.596
com.

01:49:06.176 --> 01:49:08.506
Tom Parsons: And it's kind of bright.

01:49:08.826 --> 01:49:10.596
Once you're in, it's kind
of bright and yellow.

01:49:10.826 --> 01:49:14.376
And, and, and, and then, you know,
have a navigate around there,

01:49:14.376 --> 01:49:18.076
but there's a, there's an I think
on the homepage, there's an, my,

01:49:18.116 --> 01:49:19.926
my kind of spoke email is there.

01:49:19.926 --> 01:49:22.826
So if you want to be in touch,
please do, please, please do.

01:49:23.486 --> 01:49:25.406
Rupert Isaacson: You want to enter
a film, if you want to enter a

01:49:25.406 --> 01:49:27.136
poem, if you want to enter some art.

01:49:27.716 --> 01:49:28.036
Yeah.

01:49:28.411 --> 01:49:30.061
Tom Parsons: So, and

01:49:32.541 --> 01:49:36.681
then, yeah, yes, there are
lectures too that I'm giving.

01:49:36.681 --> 01:49:36.971
Tell us

01:49:36.971 --> 01:49:37.931
Rupert Isaacson: about the lectures.

01:49:38.071 --> 01:49:40.081
How do we come to see
a Tom Parsons lecture?

01:49:40.361 --> 01:49:43.011
Tom Parsons: Lectures are
in London once a month.

01:49:43.626 --> 01:49:47.076
And they are, and I have a
different website for that

01:49:47.076 --> 01:49:48.076
because it's slightly different.

01:49:48.276 --> 01:49:49.496
Rupert Isaacson: What is that website?

01:49:49.616 --> 01:49:50.816
Tom Parsons: That's just tomparsons.

01:49:52.086 --> 01:49:52.616
org.

01:49:54.506 --> 01:49:55.206
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.

01:49:55.526 --> 01:49:58.786
Tom Parsons: And they, and they are,
I'll basically, I'll give a lecture on

01:50:01.636 --> 01:50:03.376
an artist or artists.

01:50:04.036 --> 01:50:07.746
Re relate directly linked to, to
an exhibition that's on in London

01:50:07.776 --> 01:50:10.856
at, at that moment, at that time.

01:50:11.366 --> 01:50:15.766
And you come along, we have, we,
we have a glass of wine, something

01:50:15.856 --> 01:50:17.416
to some nice things to eat.

01:50:19.126 --> 01:50:20.236
And, and then I give

01:50:20.746 --> 01:50:21.736
, 
Rupert Isaacson: where do they take place?

01:50:21.736 --> 01:50:22.336
These lectures.

01:50:22.486 --> 01:50:25.486
Tom Parsons: And they take place
just around the back of tape, modern

01:50:26.506 --> 01:50:31.816
in in an architectural, rather
beautiful architectural office.

01:50:32.461 --> 01:50:38.841
Belonging to my friend, Tom, and,
and then actually, and then the,

01:50:39.031 --> 01:50:46.891
the, the, the money that those raise
goes partly towards Spoke and partly

01:50:46.961 --> 01:50:56.461
to a therapeutic project, which Tim
McHour, who's, who's officers we use.

01:50:56.946 --> 01:51:03.526
Which he's, he's involved in,
in creating for for young people

01:51:03.526 --> 01:51:05.046
with, with mental health problems.

01:51:05.156 --> 01:51:05.436
Yeah.

01:51:05.836 --> 01:51:09.036
So there's a sort of, there's a you
know, a sort of charitable aspect to,

01:51:09.036 --> 01:51:11.926
to, to, to those lectures as well.

01:51:12.886 --> 01:51:15.146
Rupert Isaacson: So if you have
never attended a Tom Parsons

01:51:15.176 --> 01:51:16.786
lecture, you'll laugh a lot.

01:51:17.501 --> 01:51:19.491
And you'll be informed
and it will be joyful.

01:51:20.001 --> 01:51:23.441
Ooh, a lot of Renaissance stuff there.

01:51:24.771 --> 01:51:28.141
Someone I've never heard of you're
talking about on Wednesday, the

01:51:28.141 --> 01:51:32.081
14th of May, Ithel or Ithel Cahoon.

01:51:32.431 --> 01:51:33.231
Tom Parsons: Cahoon, yeah.

01:51:33.481 --> 01:51:34.351
Rupert Isaacson: Who's
that when they're at home?

01:51:35.491 --> 01:51:37.911
Tom Parsons: English surrealist artist.

01:51:38.631 --> 01:51:40.611
Oh, she's, she's great.

01:51:40.621 --> 01:51:41.431
She's really fun.

01:51:41.791 --> 01:51:42.241
Rupert Isaacson: Still around?

01:51:42.331 --> 01:51:43.126
Tom Parsons: Oh,

01:51:43.886 --> 01:51:43.926
Rupert Isaacson: that's

01:51:44.006 --> 01:51:44.206
Tom Parsons: it.

01:51:44.516 --> 01:51:46.306
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's Ithel.

01:51:46.366 --> 01:51:47.956
I T H E L L.

01:51:47.956 --> 01:51:49.606
No, no, no.

01:51:49.606 --> 01:51:50.156
Ithel.

01:51:50.516 --> 01:51:50.986
Ithel Cahoon.

01:51:51.896 --> 01:51:53.286
Cahoon is also spelt weird.

01:51:53.286 --> 01:51:54.406
It's Colquhoun.

01:51:54.846 --> 01:51:54.896
For those

01:51:55.146 --> 01:51:57.936
Rupert Isaacson: people who know
English spellings are impossible.

01:51:58.126 --> 01:51:59.336
Well, that's a Scottish name, actually.

01:51:59.696 --> 01:52:00.376
Ithel Cahoon.

01:52:00.376 --> 01:52:01.206
I'm going to look her up.

01:52:01.996 --> 01:52:06.896
And then on, Tuesday, the 17th of
June, you've got Jenny Saville.

01:52:07.206 --> 01:52:07.626
Tom Parsons: Yeah.

01:52:07.846 --> 01:52:08.866
Rupert Isaacson: Tell
us about Jenny Saville.

01:52:09.556 --> 01:52:11.696
Tom Parsons: She's
contemporary British painter.

01:52:12.246 --> 01:52:16.326
Very, very sort of interesting.

01:52:17.446 --> 01:52:18.366
Almost Dali esque.

01:52:18.946 --> 01:52:23.186
Personal presentation of the,
of the, of the female body.

01:52:24.246 --> 01:52:27.336
Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking at a
picture by her of her knees, presumably

01:52:27.336 --> 01:52:30.776
hers, or somebody's, in the bath.

01:52:31.556 --> 01:52:35.566
Like their little islands, and one of
them has got a beautiful stone circle

01:52:35.956 --> 01:52:39.626
on it, like the one you see at Calanish
in the Hebrides, going down into the

01:52:40.056 --> 01:52:44.846
bath water, and then there's other
megaliths sticking up out of the bath.

01:52:44.846 --> 01:52:45.706
Well, it's great!

01:52:45.706 --> 01:52:47.176
Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:52:47.296 --> 01:52:48.236
How'd you come across her?

01:52:48.866 --> 01:52:52.806
That painting, the one you're
looking at, is It's in the

01:52:52.806 --> 01:52:54.051
tape, it's in the tape machine.

01:52:54.721 --> 01:52:55.251
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, super.

01:52:55.571 --> 01:52:58.261
Alright, well I've learned something,
as I always do when I'm with you.

01:52:58.751 --> 01:53:02.541
And if you are listening to
this not in 2025 you're coming

01:53:02.541 --> 01:53:03.321
across this, don't worry.

01:53:03.621 --> 01:53:07.881
All you need to do to get to a
Tom lecture, there'll be more

01:53:07.881 --> 01:53:12.501
is just go to Tom Parsons Right?

01:53:14.041 --> 01:53:17.981
T O M P A R S O N S dot O R G.

01:53:19.311 --> 01:53:20.981
And Tom Parsons, art historian.

01:53:20.981 --> 01:53:24.371
Thank you so much for coming
on Live Free, Ride Free.

01:53:24.441 --> 01:53:25.051
Tom Parsons: My pleasure.

01:53:25.061 --> 01:53:25.291
Really.

01:53:25.451 --> 01:53:26.911
Thank you very much indeed.

01:53:27.191 --> 01:53:28.571
Rupert Isaacson: I've
enjoyed myself immensely.

01:53:29.871 --> 01:53:29.941
Tom Parsons: Great.

01:53:30.201 --> 01:53:30.711
Okay.

01:53:30.941 --> 01:53:31.321
Thanks.

01:53:31.741 --> 01:53:32.751
Until the next time.

01:53:33.041 --> 01:53:36.421
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

01:53:37.251 --> 01:53:41.001
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01:53:45.331 --> 01:53:50.581
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01:54:37.776 --> 01:54:41.326
I can't wait for our next guest
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01:54:42.126 --> 01:54:45.916
In the meantime, remember, live free.

01:54:46.846 --> 01:54:47.396
Ride free.