Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
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So now let's jump in.
Alright lads, this one is a real treat for me, because I've got one
of my oldest friends sitting on Zoom.
Tom Parsons.
Tom I have known for 40 years, I think?
So clearly, obviously before, since before I was born, or he was born.
And I've watched Participated in and cheered on the events of Tom's live
free, ride free life decade by decade.
And still am.
And I wanted him on the show because, as you know, I don't always want
people who are well known here.
I don't want there to be this idea that to lead a self actualised,
fulfilled or successful life, that somehow requires some public thing.
It doesn't.
We know this.
It's much more personal than that.
And so how do people fulfill their
soul needs through the course of living the lives that are quite normal?
You know, we, we go to school, maybe we go to university, we get this job,
we get that job, we have, we meet someone, we have kids, then suddenly
we're drowning in nappies for 500 years and then we look up and we're 80.
And that is, I think, the story of many of our lives.
However, what happens in between is
Tom is, I think, the epitome of that for me.
What has driven Tom is art history, but in ways that are maybe somewhat unusual.
And this has brought him to, at the point of retirement, really now a whole new
career with certain types of festival and certain types of production and
encouragement of the arts with youth.
And the next 40 years are going to be as interesting, if not
more so, as the last 40 years.
So here is a self actualised live free life, live free
life, live free ride free life,
right on a plate for all of us to eat from and enjoy.
So, Tom Parsons, thank you for coming on the show.
Tom Parsons: My pleasure.
Thank you.
Thanks, Rude.
Nice to, nice to
Rupert Isaacson: see you.
Now what none of you can see, actually you probably can see because we're going to
be putting this up on YouTube these days, is you might be forgiven for thinking
that I got Bill Nighy on the show.
And I couldn't actually get Bill Nighy, so I got Tom to stand in, because
he looks exactly like Bill Nighy.
And I think that Bill Nighy actually has been secretly following Tom around
for the last few decades, copying him, and turning that into his acting career.
Because I don't know anyone who, I don't think even Bill
Nye is as Bill Nye e e as Tom.
So, Tom, talk to us now about why you love art history so much.
How did that start with you as a kid?
Where were you born and brought up?
How did it enter your life, and at what point did you know,
Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.
I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but that's what I'm gonna do.
Tom Parsons: Okay, thank you.
I was born and brought up in a
comfortable house in, in southwest London.
I guess we had, you know, we had some nice paintings or posters and things at home.
I went to the Tate at 15 in rather a sort of hormonal state thought and
enjoyed it, didn't understand anything I was looking at, but enjoyed that.
We didn't do art history at school.
I ended up going to university to study English and got very drunk one night and
The next day, I was in such a state that I knew that I couldn't really function, so I
ended up, I thought, I know, I'll go to an art history lecture because I'm not taking
the subject, I'm vaguely interested in it, but more to the point, it'll be dark
and warm and I know I can fall asleep.
So I went to this lecture.
And I did fall asleep, but when I woke up, the slide that was
on the screen was a a, a Rothko.
And I, I remembered I'd seen this or seen a painting by Rothko in the
Tate and thought it was rubbish.
It was just a big rectangle.
Anyone could do that.
So I listened, I was intrigued to see what the lecturer was gonna
say, and I, I had a sort of you know, wrote to Damascus moment.
I, it was.
I converted on the spot to believing, still do believe, Rothko is rather
amazing, completely amazing.
Anyway, wobbled out of the lecture, went to my department, the English
department, and and said, please, can I change my degree to art history?
So I ended up doing both.
And Left University, and I suppose at that point decided, yeah, I'll try to make a
living out of out of what I love, which, which by that point was European art.
So, so yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, let's get, let's, there's a couple of
things I want to ask you there.
Okay, so Rothko, those of you who don't know Rothko, can you
describe Rothko please, Tom?
Tom Parsons: Okay, Rothko is a New York painter who died in the early 70s he's
part of the abstract expressionist school, and he painted large scale well, his
characteristic style that he reached in his maturity are large scale abstracts.
Very simple on, on first viewing, sort of huge, rectangular,
moody, pulsating Blobs of color.
And and he made, he claimed for them A sort of spiritual eloquence.
He never went that much further in terms of trying to explain.
But but he did, he did make certain assertions.
And you can, you can agree or not but I'm, I'm one of the ones who, who do agree that
they have that sort of power and impact.
And yeah, he's, he's good.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting though, because I don't know
you so much as an abstract dude.
I know you much more as a high renaissance art, baroque art art historian, you
know, I've, I've been with you in Italy and I want to go into this
and the story of art and why it's so amazing and why it helps us understand.
who we are and why we are and what we might do wrong again in the future.
But you also said something about a road to Damascus moment there and conversion.
One of the best ways I ever heard you describe yourself
was as a died again Christian.
Talk to us a little bit about you were that moody adolescent,
then you got religion, then you went off and did some interesting
stuff before university, and then.
You changed a bit, and why?
Talk us through that.
Tom Parsons: Okay yeah, I did have a very sort of Christian
phase in my later teenage years.
Why?
Because I
Rupert Isaacson: know you weren't brought up that way.
Tom Parsons: It was a, on the one hand, I think it was actually a form
of rebellion and because it was quite a, it was a sort of evangelical form
of, of the Christian faith, it was sort of, so it was, In, in, in one sense it,
you know, it was sort of radical and, and ultra committed and, and so on.
Anyway, so there was that aspect to it.
It, but it also simultaneously fulfilled a a, you know, a kind of
teenage longing for, for the ideal.
And And on the back of that, I went, I had a year, a gap year, a year
off between school and university and I went off to a phenomenal
place as a volunteer in Hong Kong.
And I met, I, I volunteered for a woman.
Who ran a rehab center for heroin addicts Hong Kong Chinese, all
ages, all backgrounds, but all, all of whom had in common that their
lives had been destroyed by heroin.
And she took them off the streets and, and put them back together.
And I, as I say, I worked there for six months.
Yeah, I, it was that was, that was extraordinary.
And I suppose, I suppose the, well, I don't know something about,
I don't know, what I realized there, and I realize, I suppose there's a
common thread through my life, is that for me, I ended up teaching
but the, the mechanism is similar.
In other words, When you put yourself in a position where you are,
as it were, giving to other people, whether it's in a classroom or
a rehab centre in Hong Kong,
you get so much back.
And I and I So there's a sort of selfishness in, in in my motivation,
there always has been or rather it's just a circle if you give you get back,
and that's, that's a good way to live.
Rupert Isaacson: I remember a story you told me about that time in
Hong Kong a bit of a life or death situation, where, involving oil.
Tom Parsons: Oh yeah, okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Please tell that story and what that left you, what insights
did you gain from that experience?
Tom Parsons: I think the story is, it was the only time
I've ever felt threatened I think whilst I was there, but the, I was in this, in
this flat, we, there were what sort of, I made About 20 of us living in a, an
apartment in a high rise in, in Hong Kong.
And and my, my role there was, you know, I was the, the, the, the sort of odd
job boy really just doing menial stuff.
But anyway, one evening I should explain, all, all of the cooking was
done by the by the guys, the guys.
Cause they knew how to cook.
I certainly didn't know how to cook and I certainly didn't
know how to cook Chinese food.
So they did all the cooking.
I had no idea what I was eating half the time.
I did recognize bits of pig head every now and again, but anyway, whatever.
But one, one evening there was.
There was a row in the kitchen and I was the only, I think I was the only
volunteer at that moment in the flat.
And I went into the kitchen to try and sort this thing out, whatever it was.
And the, the guy who was really, really cross and angry about
whatever it was turned and he was holding a wok with smoking oil.
It was very, very hot.
And he, he was threatening to throw it all over me.
And at that moment, one of the other guys came up and just
put his hand on my shoulder.
I in, I think and just sort of said, Tom, just step back, step back and.
So I did but I was quite shaken by that.
It was the only, as I said, the only time there was any, ever, ever any
sort of threat of violence to me.
And yeah, I was a bit shaken at the time.
It, it passed.
It was fine, actually.
The, the, the desire amongst the guys in that flat to straighten out their lives.
overrid or overrode such moments.
And so, you know, I was, I was immensely privileged to unfortunate
to be, to be part of that.
Rupert Isaacson: Those kinds of early experiences do you feel that they're
actually quite important in the life?
Of a young person.
I'm, I'm, in terms of understanding your own resilience and
understanding perspective taking.
How do you think, I can think of similar things that happened to me, you
know, at that age and over the years.
And I can sort of see how I've drawn on those things.
I, I, I believe now for many, many reasons, our youth, we, they
live in a slightly more sheltered.
universe than we might have done.
Things were very different back in the eighties.
What do you think an experience like that did for you as you became an adult?
It's your subconscious.
Tom Parsons: The whole experience that my experience there was, well, actually
one of the things that's relevant is that I think I remember after about
three months there, I was aware that other friends of mine were, you know,
partying in India or Australia, wherever they were, or even back in London.
And I wasn't, and I was very, my, my, my life there was, you know,
very limited, very, very strictly organized and, and, and so on.
I had no, I had, I had one, one day off a week.
And after about three months, I remember saying to Jackie,
who's the lady who ran the place.
So Jackie, I'm finding this really quite hard.
I got this urge to go.
I still want to go traveling and, and so on.
And she said, well, look.
You know, you're a volunteer, you can go, you can leave anytime
you like, anytime you like, but
I just want to remind you that you, when you wrote to ask if you could come, you,
you said you would stay for six months.
And I said, yeah, I know, I know.
And, and I know that I ought to, I know I ought to stay because
that's what I said I would do.
I'm just.
I'm just saying, she said, well, look, you are free.
My problem was that I had a ticket, my flight, my flight back, I'd prepaid,
I didn't have the money to extend it.
Anyway, I went off, had a think, went back to see her the next day and
said, no, of course I'm going to stay.
I can't, I can't, I can't break my promise.
I can't, I won't be able to live with myself.
So, and I think about a week later.
She came back and said right, we're going to pay for the extension for your ticket.
So that did, so I actually, I did get the opportunity to go, I
went off into China at the end.
So it was, it, that, so yeah, I, what did I learn?
I just learned, yeah, if you make a promise, you, you stick to it.
And for your own, so that you can look yourself in, in the mirror.
Rupert Isaacson: You've spent now.
Some decades working with kids who were your age, more or less when
you had to make that decision.
So I might circle back to it later when I met you, which was at university, after
you'd come back from that you were a year above me, so you'd already, you were
already a year in before I showed up.
And I seem to recall that we didn't really become close friends until my second year.
So you were already, you know, a couple of years.
Past that experience.
And of course, I knew you as
Maybe not quite so straight laced a fellow.
What changed?
From that evangelical Christian thing.
Why
Rupert Isaacson: did it change?
But what did it leave you with that you still draw on to this day?
Tom Parsons: Okay.
The
going to university, I realized, I suppose I, no, I very consciously
realized I could, I didn't know anyone there and you know one at, at university.
So on arrival, I sort of, I, I realized, well, my God, I could be anyone.
I could, I could become anyone that I, that I choose.
And I, I certainly had, if you like, intellectual misgivings about
about the Christian path I had been following and So it wasn't
at all difficult to kind of park,
to park my, my faith at all, no, that was great.
Because it meant all kinds of activities I'd, I'd not allowed
myself were, were available.
And that, that was all very exciting and, you know, indulgent
and so on, that was great.
But what I kept was a, I sort of, you know, kept the idealism.
The idea, yeah, the ideals that, that
got rid of the dogma was quite a good deal, I think.
Rupert Isaacson: To keep the ideals but get rid of the dogma, that's nice.
What are the ideals?
Tom Parsons: The ideals are of
love, forgiveness
the, the, the ideal of, of, of,
oh God, you know, living for something which is bigger than you.
Service.
Yes, but bearing in mind that I had worked out that if you do
that, you get a huge amount back.
So, I don't want, I don't want this to sound Is
Rupert Isaacson: that necessarily wrong?
I mean, one, one has that No,
Tom Parsons: it's not wrong at
Rupert Isaacson: all.
Spirituality presumably is an ecosystem like anything else, right?
Tom Parsons: It's not wrong at all.
I just don't want, I it's, it's a rather beautiful circuit that
feeds, that feeds everyone.
Rupert Isaacson: Also, a lot of the art that you take
people to see is religious art.
You know, I've been with you in, you know, the Renaissance art is,
half of it is religious and half of it's allegorical, you know.
Do you feel that that early ardour that you had, it gives you an insight into
when you're explaining the, Emotion behind
Tom Parsons: these things.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, no doubt.
No doubt.
And I
interesting actually, I don't know all of that, all of all of
that time I spent reading the good book has, you know, paid me back,
Rupert Isaacson: As Because you know all the stories that are in the pictures.
Tom Parsons: I know the stories, but, and I have a sense of, I have my own
sense of what, of what they mean.
Yes.
And what they may have meant to a Renaissance artist or the, or
the viewers in Renaissance times.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think that's invaluable to help people put themselves in the mindset of, not
just maybe who the painter was, but who the people were who We're seeing
that painting all that sculpture.
All right, so we're at university and I remember some things
Because I was such a diligent student I was working so hard of course I I couldn't
really spare much time for Noticing other things that other people went on because
I had my nose in my books so much But I do remember a few small things like
I remember we went to university in York by the way listeners and in York
York's very beautiful medieval town.
It's still got a wall medieval wall around it and everything inside that
wall is somewhat of a museum piece.
And there's a big cathedral called York Minster.
I seem to remember you climbing York Minster scaffolding
one night, one frosty night.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: what I've always found intriguing about you is
you're my tweedy friend that wears suits and to some degree
follows the societal rules.
Except when you don't.
Why did you climb the
scaffolding of York Minster?
Which is a huge building, very dangerous.
Talk to me about that side of you.
You also were going running up and down from London on this ancient old
motorbike that was total deathtrap.
And one, I guess what I'm trying to say, I'm trying to pay you a compliment.
Is you, I think are one of the most insanely physically brave
people I know, but you pull it out at really strange moments.
Why, what's going on with that?
And.
How does that help with art, joy, expression, fulfilment?
Why is it important to have this side of oneself, do you think?
Tom Parsons: Yeah, okay, the, I mean, I did, I did climb up the
scaffold wall around the back of the minster and That was great fun.
It was really stupid.
I wouldn't do it now.
And yeah, the motorbike oh, goodness me.
Anyway, no, there's obviously, there's a, there's a, there's a part of me, which
still needs, I suppose, to do you know, well, stupid slash unconventional things.
Despite actually, yeah, quite a conventional.
Lifestyle as a, I suppose it's a release, but
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, well, you say it's a release.
Is it, it's a release from what
Tom Parsons: I haven't climbed up anything quite like that recently.
No, it's a, it's a test, isn't it?
It's sort of, can I, let's see what I can do.
It
Rupert Isaacson: where I'm going with this
is
Rupert Isaacson: you've, you've had a lot of, we're going to
talk going to this in a minute.
I've had to spend the last decades.
Doing a lot of pastoral care, people who were the age that you were
when you were off to Hong Kong and China and climbing up York Minster.
This idea of, I, I, I, I'm a great believer that particularly when
you're young, you need risk, you need it like you need oxygen.
In order to, like a plant needs sunlight in order to grow at
the same time, it is risky.
We're hunter gatherers, we're supposed to at a certain point take the spear and go
into the bush and see if we can come back with a wildebeest while dodging the lions.
And if we don't do that, we may be don't achieve certain life skills, but we
also got to stay alive while we do it.
And you, you've been in this interesting position in the last few years of,
of, of trying to help people in those years who are probably having that need
navigate also while being responsible for them and, you know, staying within
the legalities and all of that stuff.
It's a, it's a very tricky line to tread whether we're
doing it personally or whether.
You know you're responsible for others.
Talk to me a little bit about that, because I feel it relates to self
fulfillment, it also relates to art.
But just talk to me a little bit about that, from your experience
personally, with your own three boys, and all the kids who've been
under your care this last 30 years.
This thing about risk, this thing about challenge, this thing about
rule breaking, why is it so important?
Tom Parsons: Okay.
The I, yes.
Okay.
I, I ended up for 20 odd years as a working as a, as a,
the term is housemaster.
It's basically a pastoral role in a boarding
Rupert Isaacson: school.
He did actually work in Hogwarts, listeners.
Yes.
And Directly under Dumbledore.
Tom Parsons: And so a lot of that, so I spent a lot of time.
to teenagers as often as not, it was when they were in trouble because
they'd broken whichever rule it was.
Obviously, if you've done a little bit of that yourself then, you know, you
can, you can relate, you can relate to the, to, to, to those who've,
who've, who've made their own mistakes.
And yeah, you know, those mistakes are useful.
They, yeah, my, my own moments of madness certainly helped me understand,
understand, or yeah sympathize with those who I was actually having to admonish.
And so, yeah, I was able to, I think, I was able to come across as someone
who, who understood whilst at the same time saying, well, that, you know,
yeah, you're gonna, you know, here are the, there are school rules, la la la,
you're going to have to suck up the, whatever the sanction is and, and, you
know, and let's, let's learn from this.
That sort of thing.
Yeah, so all of that very useful.
I suppose my own slightly ambiguous relationship with authority, you know,
because on the one hand I do conform, on the other hand, it's sort of, that helped
in terms of being being able to listen to a student's you know, when they were
letting off steam and angry with the system, I could, you know, I get that.
Anyway, yeah, it was that, as I say, that.
a slightly ambiguous attitude.
was helpful.
Rupert Isaacson: After university you went and
worked for and still do a company run by friends of ours called Art History Abroad.
And very quickly started taking large groups of people, not much younger than
yourself, around Italy on a sort of modern day version of the Grand Tour.
Venice, Florence, Rome, the great works, the great culture.
Suddenly, you've got A dozen or more kids all avidly rule breaking all over Italy,
you're keeping them alive, keeping them safe, but also reveling with them and
sort of showing them a bit how to revel.
Revel responsibly.
Ish.
And exposing them to
this type of culture of art, the love of art, the beauty of art.
I remember when I first heard about AHA, Art History Abroad,
I was pretty sceptical.
I thought, well, these are just the sons and daughters of the privileged,
going off and doing the Grand Tour, which is something that has existed
in, You know, Western culture for the privileged scions of European
society for a few hundred years.
Okay, you know, that's good because then you get people like Goethe coming
out of it writing poems and you get people like Byron coming out of it
writing poems and great, we have these poems and that's wonderful.
But, you know, is it really the same as Going and working in a heroin
addicted place in Hong Kong or where's the value of it comparative to that?
but then when I actually saw AHA operate firsthand and I we had Nick Ross on our
mutual friend who runs it that company on this podcast so people listening go
and listen to Nick Ross and his views on why exposure to this kind of art is
actually very good for creating kind of compassionate adults, particularly
out of people who are going to be decision makers and people who are
going to be in authority to some degree.
Why, why, why does it make them actually better softer people?
And I sort of observed this at work.
I saw how you and that team took People who could be, have turned into
really arrogant arseholes and allowed the humanities to humanize them.
It was, I saw it work every time and there's a sort of alumni of people
who went through that AHA multi week.
bonding experience who I Still know are this network of people who actually
do a lot of good in the world It's a really interesting phenomenon and I
think that aesthetics it's an overlooked
I don't want to say virtue, I don't want to say quality, I want to say
perhaps even necessity for the human soul, in terms of gentling it somehow.
Give me your thoughts on that.
Why does art matter so much?
Why does exposure to art and architecture matter so much?
Because I do think it does.
Tom Parsons: Okay, I taught on those courses abroad in Italy with, as you say,
with a sort of a privileged education.
At the same time I was teaching in the National Gallery in
the Tate Gallery in London.
Same sort of job actually, which was basically taking younger
groups around those collections.
And in that, and in those cases, it was not the independent school crowd.
It was.
You know, ordinary kids.
And the,
in effect pitched, pitched in the right way.
I, I remember, actually I remember something Nick saying
to me years and years ago, right at the beginning of it all.
Just pointing out that our culture and this was, this was true 30 years ago.
It's more true now.
More than ever.
Anyway, our culture is, is an intensely visual one.
Therefore, actually we all are, without necessarily realizing it extremely
sensitive to visual information.
And we're, we're, we're fluent, we're articulate.
It's a, it's a language that we yeah, that, that we're fluent in,
even if, even if we're not sort of conscious of the fact, so use that,
use that as a, as a, as a way in.
So that's one thing.
Secondly so even in other words, even if a.
You know, you're, you're showing a group of 15 year olds
from you know, from a, a, a,
who've never been to the National Gallery, you're showing them a 15th
century painting, actually there are they'll be able to read it.
They can, they can read shape, color, and design because of advertising and
you can, so that's, that's a way in.
Then the second way in is, is through stories either the story that's being
told or a story relating to the artist.
Third, third, you can, you can always hook, get people to listen to you if you
talk either about violence or about sex.
And both, both of those things are pretty
Rupert Isaacson: Crashers and blowjobs.
Yeah.
It's all stories.
Tom Parsons: Yeah.
Endemic to, to the to the stories that, that animate European art anyway.
So that, those are your ways in.
And from there, actually, you then quite quickly arrive at
conversations about About big stuff, about, about the important
things about life, death suffering meaning purpose, moral truth.
So, so whether I was doing that in, in, in Italy, in, in the, you know,
beautiful surroundings, Florence or Rome or wherever, or in a gallery in
London, it was, different audiences, but that was the, as I say visual, if
you like, visual literacy leading to
discussion, conversation, thought, and argument about
about stuff that's important.
And, and that's, that's rather a, rather a You think
Rupert Isaacson: in particular that the number of pictures
of the passion that people get exposed to when they go and see.
Particularly Renaissance art.
Do you think that does something to the brain?
You know, some people would argue, God, all these pictures of a tortured
man being tortured to death, you know, why are we allowing our kids
to see these violent, violent images?
I mean, he's being properly tortured to death in one of the
nastiest ways you possibly can.
There it is right there.
You walk past it every day outside the Catholic church as you, you know, oh
look, he's up there being crucified again.
To the point we've become numb to it.
Also, but at the same time I think that a lot of the, well, I have
found that a lot of the depictions of that art, when they're done really
beautifully, the idea of universal suffering somehow really comes through.
Do you have a is there a picture that you have, or sculpture, that you've
consistently found that when you bring those young people in front
of it, you sort of see them go, you sort of see the heart crack open,
you see, and you know, Now they're beginning to understand compassion.
Like,
are there certain images that you.
That you can spring to mind, that, that, that we, and maybe
ones we should know about.
Tom Parsons: I would say Masaccio's Trinity, in Santa Maria Novella
in, in Florence, as a crucifixion.
Tell
Rupert Isaacson: us that slowly for, for people that can't
follow Italian names, so well.
Okay,
Tom Parsons: so Masaccio.
Masaccio?
Masaccio, masaccio?
Yeah, M A S A C C
Rupert Isaacson: I O.
Well, I could do with a bit of a Masaccio right now, I've got
my Tension in the shoulders.
Miso.
Okay.
Tom Parsons: Yeah.
And he, he painted a, a crucifixion.
It's a, it's a fresco, so it's painted onto a, onto a wall in a, in a church.
The church is holy Mary, new center, Maria Novella, Uhhuh and it's in where?
In Florence.
Okay.
And when was it painted?
1426.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's 15th century, so 600 years old.
Tom Parsons: And
Rupert Isaacson: it
Tom Parsons: is and it's a very, it's a very early example of, of,
Rupert Isaacson: I'm going to look it up on my phone as
Tom Parsons: you're talking.
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.
Tom Parsons: Renaissance art.
It's one of the first one of the earliest examples of a European artist
demonstrating mastery of perspective.
And so in that technical respect, it's, it's of great historical
significance, but more than, more than that is the way in which Masaccio has
employed geometry because Perspective.
When you arrange your diagonals to meet at a vanishing point to create the
illusion of three dimensional space or depth it's basically a geometric technique
and Masaccio has used geometry as a way, not only of creating the illusion of, of
space, of three, three dimensions, which is, You know, which still fascinates
us, it's magnetic, you know, we're still doing it with, with, with VR but anyway,
back so there's, there's that sort of technical sort of tour de force aspect of
that painting but more to the point, or on top of that, he's used, if you like, the
language of geometry as a way of painting.
expressing visually what I would call the, or relating or linking the language of
geometry with the the sort of theological story that he's, that he's telling.
And in this particular picture, it's the crucifixion.
You've got God the Father standing behind and holding the arms of the cross.
So it's not a description of what actually happened, it's a, it's an
allegorical portrayal of the crucifixion.
And God the Father's not even looking, he's looking straight
out, not even looking at you, he's looking over your head.
And it's as if the it's, to my mind at least, anyway, it's, it's as if What
mass is communicating is, is this, that the, that the message of salvation,
which Christ's sacrifice on the cross made real and available to those who
choose to believe is forever is eternal.
And
similarly, if you like, the, the, the axioms of mathematics
in within their own terms are.
You know, eternally true, two plus two equals four, it
always will, it always did.
And, and Masaccio's put these two things together to give that
message extraordinary impact.
And it's,
it's sort of deliberately absolutely unemotional.
Deliberately so, and, and all the more powerful for that.
So, yeah, that's, that's a work which tends to.
Tends to work every time.
I would say
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's interesting.
I'm reading up on, I, I've been looking at the painting on my
phone while you've been talking.
It's beautiful, of course.
But ma Macio, M-A-S-A-C-C-I-O is a nickname.
it's a nickname.
Do you want I, I, now I've read what it means.
Do you want to say, tell people what it means?
Tom Parsons: Yeah, it means slovenly Tom.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: clumsy Tom or messy Tom.
Yeah,
Tom Parsons: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Messy Tom's crucifixion.
Clumsy Tom's crucifixion.
I love it.
And I think that's one of the things I love about the way you and Nick often
bring these paintings to life is, you know, we get a complicated sounding name.
We go through this with classical music as well.
There'll be an Italian name or a German name.
And what you don't know is that That kind of means old socks in, you
know, German or something like that.
And it, it humanizes everything.
Yeah.
So suddenly it's clumsy Tom's crucifixion.
And then the other thing, which is so amazing is that he only,
he didn't live very long, he only lived to be about 26 or so
Tom Parsons: right.
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
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We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
And then you, you look at what people like that did in their lifetimes.
And you think, well, how did, how did, how did you, the son of an innkeeper.
No money behind you Having to then go and find a bit of apprenticeship
here and apprenticeship there and live on your wits How did you have
time to develop skills to that degree?
I've often wondered about this with musicians as well from the past Given how
much effort had to go into just staying alive, you know, and then I look at
myself procrastinating over work And I've lived decades longer than a lot of these
people, because we do live longer now.
It's a bit humbling, isn't it?
To say, wow, you could actually, if you put your mind to it, you can do a
whole lot more than you think you can.
Okay, so that's it.
That one's in.
You have to take a trip to get there.
The kids from the local schools that you've been taking around London for
years into those free collections, which are such an amazing resource, anyone
can go see them anytime free of charge.
Is there a painting in the National Gallery in London
that we should all go see?
Look at that.
You've also known is like that, that people stop in front of the young
people stop in front of, and even that, and effectively kind of have
to come out from under their hoodies and give it up for the human spirit.
Like, is there again a particular picture which you say we should all
actually, if we're listening from the UK, turn our cars around and drive
straight to the Nat Gal and go look at.
Tom Parsons: There are loads,
loads and loads.
The one,
the one that.
I would mention now, because it's possibly a little bit less well known,
is by Bellini, a Venetian artist, 1505, and it's quite a small painting,
it's called the Madonna of the Meadow.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking it up as you speak.
Madonna of the Meadow, Bellini.
Okay.
Tom Parsons: And so it's, it's actually a very, you know, it's a
very modest, it's a modest work.
Not painted for a public space.
It's too small.
It would have been a painted for, we don't know who, who paid for it.
But it would have gone into a sort of wealthy Venetian household.
And.
Oh, I love it for many, many reasons.
Not least actually, because Bellini's such an old man when he painted it.
It's, it's he's in his eighties and he's taken on a new medium, which is oil paint.
It was oil painting's
Rupert Isaacson: not around before that, or he himself wasn't using
Tom Parsons: one of, he's one of the first Italians to start using oil.
What were people using before oil?
They were using paint where you mix pigments with egg,
so it's known as egg tempera.
But the, basically the, the Northern Europeans pioneered a different type of
paint where you're mixing the pigment with oil, and it's much more flexible.
It's, it's very slow to dry, but but, but much, much more flexible.
Anyway It came through, through sort of trade connections between
the Netherlands and Venice.
Bellini would have sort of found out about oil.
And what I rather love is that, you know, in his old age, he says, right, great.
Yeah, I'll, I'll start experimenting.
And so he does anyway, he produces this picture and it is of, it's Mary seated.
in front of a landscape.
The landscape is Venetian, is the Venetian mainland.
So, it's a, as it were, a contemporary landscape for, for Bellini.
It's got nothing to do with Palestine or the Middle East.
And she's got the Christ child in her lap.
And she's, And he's asleep and she's looking down at him and got her hands
sort of, fingers sort of pressed together in, in prayer, look very thoughtful.
Anyway behind her, so to, to the left, there's a, a tree, no leaves,
and a big black carrion bird sitting in, in the top of the tree.
And so basically you, all you do is you, you sort of say to the class who are
looking at it, you say talk to them about the tree and the bird, and it's, it's a
crow or a raven, and what do they eat?
Oh, they eat carrion.
What's that?
It's, it's things that are dead.
And you say, okay, look, look back at the Christ child.
The Christ child is asleep.
But if it wasn't, if he wasn't sleeping, what might he be?
And then they say, oh, he might be dead.
And of course what Bellini's doing is that he's placed.
The child in Mary's lap in such a way as to remind us of what we call the PietÃ ,
which is the, the depiction of Mary with the dead Christ in, in, in her arms.
And then suddenly the whole sort of painting in a way makes sense.
It's that she, she has her child asleep on her lap, but she's
having some sort of premonition of.
The future of his death.
And then these references to death are there all over the landscape.
With the tree, the dead trees.
It's an autumnal landscape, the carrion bird.
And there, there are more sort of correspondences
between figures and landscape.
As if to suggest that the message of, of Christ's life and passion, et cetera,
are indirectly reflected in nature.
And the two, the two are basically the same thing.
Yeah.
And it's, anyway, all done in the most unassuming, gentle, un un,
rhetorical manner by a, by a man in his eighties who's mastered a new a new
technique, a new, a new type of paint.
It's brilliant.
Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting is that people obvious obviously
didn't live that long typically then.
I'm looking at, I've been looking at the painting while you've been talking about
it and I noticed in the background there's also the landscape looks parched and
there's a cow herd not wearing any pants who's clearly exhausted, who's kind of
collapsed with his back to the fence post.
Cow's up.
around him and there's a, there's a, a water with a big, with a big sort of
lever thing clearly meant for by hand, but behind that there's a figure who
you think, well, is that the cow her?
But no, it's wrapped in, it looks like death,
Tom Parsons: wrapped in all
Rupert Isaacson: sorts of weird shrouds, but equally it could just be
someone coming to check out the cows.
You know, I,
what's interesting to me is that you've got.
To 15th century.
Well, I guess this guy's early 16th century people here What do you feel
I've got my own feelings about this, but why is that such an important time?
European culture, this, it's the high renaissance, so it's, but
it's just before all the really big stuff takes off in the 16th century.
What do you think it is about this 15th century stuff that Obviously,
it's the beginning of perspective and there's some technical things in there.
But why is that such an important time and place to bring people's
attention to if they're Westerners, to understand themselves?
Tom Parsons: I think that
we, you know, we can, we can talk about the, if you like, the, the,
the birth of the modern world occur.
We can actually sort of choose lots of different starting points for the,
for the, for the birth of the modern world and the world, the world with
which we are, we, we are familiar, the one, the one we inhabit ourselves.
At this you know, you could say, you might say, oh, it's the Industrial
Revolution, it's mid 19th century, or it's it's the, all the, the, or, or
it's, it's, it's the 20th century and, and, and sort of modern art and so on.
But you can equally, you can say, ah, yeah, Renaissance, the beginning
of, of, of the modern world.
It's it, it, it's the when the, certainly in terms of economics and
trade and commerce we have a kind of beginnings of a, of a continental a
sort of coherent and and effective kind of banking system on the one hand.
Yeah.
We've also got the emergence of a, a scientific attitude towards towards the
world itself and, and humanity So a, a breaking, well, an, an alternative way of
looking and seeking understanding of how, of how the world works and how, and our
place within it using, in effect, what we would call the sort of scientific method.
And that's all starting with, that's all beginning to take,
to take hold, and it's yielding.
very, very significant sort of results, socially, scientifically,
philosophically, in the
15th, early 16th century.
However, at that particular moment, it's not in conflict with
Christian, the Christian faith, it's the two go together.
And and all of that's going to get blown out of the water.
That, that, if you like, marriage between a kind of rational scientific
outlook, which in its In its own ways, is our legacy from the classical world
married, married to the, to, to a a sort of Christian ideology and as I
say, that, that moment is short lived and the, you know, the Reformation
didn't help, the Enlightenment certainly didn't help the church and by the, you
know, come the, come the end of the Industrial Revolution, and communism is
et cetera, the church has never really recovered and the scientific or rational
outlook has leapt, leapt forward.
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things that always leaps out at me when I'm looking at
those paintings from that particular cusp, mid late 15th century, first years, first
decade maybe of the 16th, is that's of course when the new world comes into play.
The New World couldn't have happened without that banking system, as you say,
that emerges weirdly out of the sort of sleeping ruins of the Roman Empire,
which has been, you know, smashed up at the beginning of the Middle Ages,
and It's sort of, you know, a limping, wounded thing for a while until northern
kings decide that maybe it's a good idea if the pope ratifies their rule
so that they can say to other northern kings, sorry, I got to the pope first
and he signed this bit of paper.
So actually I'm king, not you.
And then that kind of notarization.
Brings all this money in, and then suddenly by the end of the
15th century, the Church of Rome suddenly re emerges as a bank.
Brilliant.
And that bank subsidizes
the conquest of the New World.
The New World, of course, then re subsidizes Rome back through
the Spanish and Portuguese.
And we end up with the world that we know now.
But it's, it's so interesting to, for me to stand in front of a painting
like that and go, wow, that's right at the cusp of us, the, this kind
of Western transatlantic thing that is the kind of economic and cultural
reality of our culture, what we call the West didn't exist then.
And it's just about to exist.
Because these guys got it together as bankers, there, which
meant that they could afford to commission these paintings.
And, ba boom!
I always find that intriguing to sort of see a historical moment
like that and realize that you can still stand in front of it.
Okay, so you're, you're, you're exposing people to this sense of perspective.
And I, I guess what I was trying to Get out as to why it's so good for
the human mind and the human soul is I'm a great believer And so is
neuroscience, in the power of awe, A W E.
There's an increasing number of studies being done into the mental and emotional
effects of being faced with something that you feel is so much greater than you,
that it makes you feel very, very small, while that is overwhelmingly beautiful.
Now, of course, you don't have to look very hard for that, you just
have to look outside the window.
It's called Planet Earth, and it's anything that mankind produces,
is always pales in comparison.
Naturally, even though people have argued about this over the centuries, it's
pretty hard to paint Niagara Falls better than Niagara Falls is Niagara Falls.
Yeah, you can have a go, but you know, it's probably probably going to be a
little bit better, you know, a bit like the Rolling Stones trying to be James
Brown in the early 60s in their things.
I've heard Mick Jagger say, yeah, maybe, maybe we were trying to do that.
Maybe James Brown was just a little bit better than we were.
So, okay.
So art and nature and so, but nonetheless, you can get this with art, I feel too.
And I do feel that when the humanities are at their best, art, literature,
music, it doesn't have to be the old stuff, it can be the new stuff too.
It does something to the human psyche, which makes us kinder, weirdly.
And science seems to be supporting this.
What have you noticed with the kids that you've been helping to teach,
whether in London or around Italy, so in these last decades, and a lot of us are
parents, some of us are grandparents.
Why is this something that we should maybe be paying attention
to in the upbringing of our kids?
Tom Parsons: Oh, I think that if I mean it
to feel a sense of connection even of belonging to something As you say,
which is bigger than you, but as I say, but you, but it's, it's, it's not it's
not alien and it's not inimical as I say something, but something bigger.
But nonetheless at the same time, something that you in, in some
small way you belong to, you are part of is inspiring, liberating,
comforting something like that.
Perhaps at it, at its best.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm looking here at a study recently published study out of
university of California as into, or as a pathway to mental and physical health.
And here's, here were the, here's some fine, there's a ton of stuff.
This is, this is published on pub med, you know, where you can go and get any.
medical study published, you know, blah, blah, blah.
This is a great quote or then is associated with a profile of elevated
vagal tone, reduced sympathetic arousal.
Increased oxytocin release, and reduced inflammation.
All processes known to benefit mental and physical health.
This is in the abstract.
So, those listeners who aren't familiar with what vagal tone means, your vagus
nerve, meaning the wandering nerve, is your biggest nerve in your body.
Connects your downstairs to your upstairs, and it touches every organ in your body.
And it's a bit like the Northern line in London, because it's got
two parallel branches that do hit the brain, but they can also go
to different parts of the brain.
So it matters which one of those branches you get on, because if you want to go to
Edgeware, you might end up in High Barnet sort of thing, if you don't end up there.
But they go from south to north through London, through the human body, just
the same touching all the nerve centers.
When you produce oxytocin which is the queen of our feel good hormones
because it's the one that brings the feeling of connectedness and
it makes you want to communicate.
So it's very interesting that you, you, you talked about the
feeling of belonging there, Tom.
If you can create oxytocin in your gut cause you can create
it in many parts of your body.
As the vagal nerve brings it up through your body to your brain, it touches every
organ in Tune and they begin to sing like a choir together so that by the time it
hits your brain it hits your brain like a Join army or a joy army a joygasm, you
know, we have that Feeling and we all have that feeling in front of powerful nature
in front of the ocean in front of the sky in front of Somebody we love in front of
great art great music like that shamanic Experience and but what's so interesting?
Is that it has physical effects beyond that.
Reduced inflammation, that's so interesting.
Because so reduced sympathetic arousal is reducing cortisol,
effectively the stress hormone.
That's what it means.
Sympathetic nervous system being That actually not sympathetic nervous is
really annoying that scientists had to try and be clever and call the
thing that isn't sympathetic The sympathetic one and the one that is
sympathetic the parasympathetic one so annoying they should be shot but
the idea that it reduces inflammation because irritation annoyance anger
Irritation is almost always a result of inflammation.
You talk about irritated skin, you know, so the idea of it calming
and soothing one as well through this sort of oxytocin release and
making us bond with each other.
So it, I've definitely observed this watching you teach.
And I've observed you connect people like this to very, very beautiful human works.
I tend to do it with nature.
And I see the same reaction happen in these people that I would expect to happen
with the autumn colors in the forest or a beautiful horse or seeing the Serengeti
migration or whatever, a great sunset.
So it's interesting to know this.
And then the, the other aspect, which I have.
What I've always been so impressed by is your ability to bring play in, and I,
you know, the climbing up the Minster, only one of your many great moments
I always feel that you make it playful, and this is so important when we're
learning you brought a great sense of play to these Italian things in particular.
Could you tell us a little bit about the Colosseum Club, please?
Tom Parsons: Yes.
Oh dear.
This is quite irresponsible.
I wonder who's listening to this.
Nevermind.
This was something which
I actually, I never did this with students.
Because it really was wonderful.
I
Rupert Isaacson: remember doing this with you, but I wasn't a student.
Tom Parsons: Wonderfully I mean, a wonderful experience, but it was.
You know, it was kind of illegal and pretty irresponsible.
Anyway, yeah, no, what it, what it involved was with, the first
time I, I I climbed into the Coliseum was with my friend Robert.
We're talking
Rupert Isaacson: about the Roman Coliseum.
Tom Parsons: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In Rome, the big coine.
Okay.
Tom Parsons: Robert and I
Rupert Isaacson: how do you climb into, how did you climb into it?
What's climbing into it even mean?
Tom Parsons: I would like to clarify that this is a num This is years ago.
Yeah.
And the Italian authorities are much, much more strict.
And we'll get really cross.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: this is before the days of video cameras and all of that.
Yes, absolutely.
Explain to us what it involved.
Tom Parsons: What it involved was, was finding a, basically it had high, high,
high metal, kind of like scaffolding pole bars, which actually were quite, were, you
know, weren't that impossible to get over.
Rupert Isaacson: How high were
Tom Parsons: they?
Three meters.
I mean, quite high, but but you, but they, but you But scalable?
You had a purchase on the you had, there was a purchase so you, you could get over.
Anyway, Robert and I went in late, late, late, late, late, and climbed in
the dark to the, towards the top where we sat and and read our Byron, read
Byron's description of the Coliseum by moonlight, which was in fact Was it a
Rupert Isaacson: moonlit night that you went up there?
Tom Parsons: In.
Yes, it was.
And, and that, and that was our, that was our motor for
going in, in the first place.
It was knowing that Byron had been, been there by night, 200 years earlier, or and,
and it was absolutely extraordinary.
It was a ghostly, you know, it was empty, it was dark.
And it was, you know, it was.
It was also something of a relief to find a young Roman couple having a
jolly good snog at the top who who broke away from their snog and engaged us
in a really quite a loud conversation.
They had absolutely no qualms about being, being caught.
And and it did seem.
As though the, there was a security guard who probably knew we were
there and had no intention whatsoever of confronting, I guess, four
people, four against one, whatever.
Yeah, so we did that and then I know you and I went in and I have been back
not for, not for a number of years now.
I don't think I'd do it now.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: here's, here's my, here's my Interpretation of it because
I remember when you said, okay, Ru, there's this thing we got to do and we
were there together and you, it was a moonlit night and we went to the Coliseum.
There it is.
It's vast.
It's huge.
And you said, look, you see that thing up there?
We have to climb that.
And I remember looking at it quite skeptically.
You've always been the climber.
I think, I think it was higher than three meters.
I think it's more like four.
And what you left out was there was a jagged.
There was a break in the spiky fence.
There's one spike that had broken off, so you could kind
of climb between the spikes.
But if you put one foot wrong the spiky bits of the broken
spike were going to impale you.
Then we, then we popped down on the other side, very, with this anxiety
in my mind, thinking, I'm going to have to get out over that thing again.
And That climb up through the Coliseum to the top and then looking
down into the arena by moonlight and then having you read this poem.
I'm now going to read it.
It's a bit long, but it's worth hearing, people.
And hear the buzz murmured pity or loud roared applause as man was slaughtered.
And wherefore slaughtered?
Wherefore, but because such were the bloody circus's genial laws, And the
imperial pleasure, wherefore not?
What matters where we fall, to fill the moors of worms, On
battleplanes or listed spot?
Both are but theatres where the chief actors rot.
I see before me the gladiator lie.
He leans upon his hand, his manly brow consents to death.
But conquers agony and his drooped head sinks gradually low and through
his side the last drops ebbing slow from the red gash, four heavy, one by
one like the first of a thundershower.
And now the arena swims around him.
He is gone.
E'er ceased the inhuman shout which hailed the wretch who won.
He heard it, but he heeded not.
His eyes were with his heart, and that was far away.
He reck'd not of the life he'd lost, nor prize, But where his rude
hut by the Danube lay, And there his young barbarians all at play.
There was their Dacian mother, he their sire, Butchered to make a Roman holiday.
All this rushed with his blood.
Shall he expire and unavenged?
Arise, ye Goths, and glut your ire!
But here, where murder breathed her bloody stream, And here, where buzzing nations
choked the ways, And roared or murmured like the mountain stream, Dashing or
winding as its torrent strays, Here, where the Roman millions blame or praise, Was
life or death, the playthings of a crowd.
My voice sounds much, and falls to the star's faint rays, On the
arena, void seats, crushed walls.
bowed, and galleries where my steps seem echoes, strangely
loud, a ruin, yet, what ruin?
I'm gonna end there.
Tom Parsons: Yeah, no, it's, it's something else.
Rupert Isaacson: It's something else.
And I remember you reading that poem and then connecting that, of course,
with that marble statue called the Dying Gaul which I think inspired that poem.
Tell us about the Dying Gaul.
Where is it?
And what is it?
Tom Parsons: The Dying Gaul is a Roman, a classical Roman statue.
It's in, it's in Rome.
It's in the Capitoline Museum.
So it's not that far away from the Codiceum itself.
And it's been on view in that museum since the, or late 1700s.
And it was, it's been copied.
Yeah, countless times.
So, but anyway, the, the original is, is there in Rome.
Byron would have seen it, he would have known copies in you know, stately
homes from, from, from England.
So that statue, knowledge of the statue printed.
illustrations of it and so on were very much part of an English aristocrat's
kind of classical education.
So an English aristocratic traveler such as Byron would it's on his,
it's on his list of things to see.
So he, he would have seen it.
And therefore, yeah, he, he makes references.
It's a, it's a basically a new male nude figure prone lying on the
ground, but sort of propped up on
Rupert Isaacson: dying gladiator, basically.
Tom Parsons: Yeah.
Possibly, yeah, no, actually no one knows if it, is it a gladiator?
Is it a a warrior?
No one really knows, but but certainly dying, there is a
wound and that there are A
Rupert Isaacson: barbarian crushed by Rome.
Yeah, dying in an aesthetically beautiful way.
Tom Parsons: So he, he takes the memory of the statue and imagines it as a gladiator
dying in the, dying in the arena.
But at the same time, he's also describing the the destruction of the Colosseum.
And with that, so he's imagining what it was like.
in its heyday, but he's contrasting that with its present condition.
He's, he's there in about 1816.
And He's using all of this to sort of meditate on if you like the transience
of human achievement and the inevitable decline of all empires and, and the
unspoken kind of presence in all of this is Napoleon, who's just lost,
and his empire has just collapsed.
And and that's the sort of filter that he's.
Looking or experiencing the Coliseum through partly his own classical
education and his awareness of the classical past and partly present, very
present contemporary political events which makes that poem so evocative.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
I've seen the Dying Gaul in its, in the museum, but also.
As you say, there's so many reproductions of it because it's such a powerful
statue and that thing butchered to make a Roman holiday, all of the references
that go out from that, even like to, you know, movies like Roman holiday
now is that, you know, classic movie.
And the references from something like that go up and down history
and then Arise ye Goths, because of course it's the Goths from the
Danube who actually sack Rome in 410.
Beginning of the fifth century.
They actually leave it largely intact.
It's the vandals, vandals who come along a few years later
who actually finish the job.
But that's why we have vandalism.
But the, what I love about that experience of the Coliseum Club and
that's why I wanted you to talk about it.
The whole point is that, yes, it, was it, was it irresponsible?
If you had said to those, that Roman couple up there enjoying their city
and the freedom of being able to climb in there at night because
they're probably also living, you know, with their parents apartments.
And this is a place that they could go and be together.
And this is open to everybody and freedom and that life is
so much more restrictive now.
They could not, as residents of the city, think about climbing in
there without getting arrested.
Yeah.
Things have, the world I feel has in many ways got narrower
since those days in the nineties.
But.
We, they, like Byron, like whoever Byron encountered in those ruins, could
go in there and read that poem and feel it and have an adventure with it.
Should young people in particular, but also oldies like us, not lose the habit
of taking this playful approach to art and life and, you know, take that poetry
book to the place Where it was done.
Jump through some hoops to get in there.
Take a bit of a risk.
Isn't that what makes life beautiful?
It's,
Tom Parsons: Yeah, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm
guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not
just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
Tom Parsons: It's, it's yeah.
You know, a good lunch is also important, but, good lunch.
Right, but the, yeah.
What
Rupert Isaacson: defines a good lunch?
Oof.
I seem to remember our mutual friend Robert Woodward had a very
particular Definition of that.
The same man who introduced you to the Coliseum Club.
Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, well, it's as much the company as as
anything else, but no, sorry, just going back, going back to, to,
Rupert Isaacson: just quickly, Robert's, Robert's, go, go, go.
Do you, what he used to say was
lunch without wine is not lunch.
It's a snack.
Yes.
Words to live by.
Tom Parsons: Yeah.
But that, that whole experience if you like, is.
I would say again, it's one of belonging.
Goethe Belonging
Rupert Isaacson: to one's past and one's culture.
Yeah, I see what you mean.
Tom Parsons: Goethe's journal at one point has the entry he's just
arrived in Rome and he says One becomes, as it were, a contemporary
of the great decrees of history.
So it is, it is about belonging.
Not, not to, it's belonging to a culture, to a history.
Belonging to something in its best and worst moments.
And it's, so it, it's, it's in many ways.
A question of identity, of, of finding or sensing that that your identity is, is
inextricably linked to something way, way bigger than, bigger and older than you.
And that's
Rupert Isaacson: I want to go quickly a bit into how you draw on these types of
experiences of treading the line between the responsible and the irresponsible,
the play and the serious in.
your work with young people because you've actually spent the last 20
years in service to young people.
And then I want to go into finish with Spoke and this amazing film festival that
you And now poetry and art that you do for young people, which is the sort of
beginning of your next career, which is sort of distillation of all these things.
But there's two things I want to just go to just before we go there.
You started with Rothko.
We've been in the Renaissance and the Baroque.
But I know that your great love is Matisse.
Why?
Why should we all pay attention to Matisse?
Tom Parsons: I spent quite a long time researching Matisse for a postgraduate.
Thesis and and yeah, he became incredibly important to me still and still is.
Why?
Because
Rupert Isaacson: he why him and not Picasso?
Why not him?
Why him and not Dali?
Why not one of those?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Why Matisse?
Contemporary guys.
Tom Parsons: Sure.
Matisse was an artist,
actually very interesting, actually in some ways he left An awful lot of his own,
of himself out of his art, or to be accurate he, that there are plenty
of references to himself in his art, but they're disguised Picasso on
the other hand, it's, it's sort of,
Rupert Isaacson: he's front and center.
He's the main character.
Yeah.
Tom Parsons: So Matisse was not, not without a domineering sort of artistic ego
but he, he did is more discreet about it.
He was aware of it and he sort of, found ways to kind of duck
and dive around it, let's say.
So there's that.
There's his okay, he took a decision early on in his career.
He's quite a late starter, but he took his decision early on as an artist to
concentrate on that, those elements of his, those elements of, of his life.
Painting or sculpture or drawing, which offer a kind of consolation
to the viewer and he deliberately Consolation, that's an interesting
And he avoided confrontation with the darker aspects of human experience.
And for this, he's, has been criticized for, you know, for being a little bit
pretty or, or superficial or, or a bit almost sort of willfully naive which,
which are not really accusations, I think, that are, that are justified,
but but I can see why, because actually the way in which he deployed his chosen
that sort of visual vocabulary very often actually leaves a trace of the,
if you like, of the sort of creative effort it cost him to get there.
So, so it's, it's not just pretty patterns.
It's it's more than that.
And that's, that's why I, that's why I love them.
Rupert Isaacson: So Joy Matisse, why is this important?
Tom Parsons: Okay.
I'm thinking of a of, I'm thinking of a la a line in one of, well, in the, in
the lin little gidding, one of the, the, the last of Ts Elliot's four quartets.
Which in which he.
A condition of complete simplicity, costing not less than everything.
Wha?
Can you just repeat that?
A condition of complete simplicity, costing not less than everything.
Okay.
And that's a kind of, it's almost the final line, not quite the last
line of, of the, the, the final quartet of the four quartets.
And it seems to me that, that what Matisse is seeking is exactly that.
It, there's an aspiration to a kind of purity or simplicity
in his visual language.
And that is what I would, I would equate that with, with
joy freedom, liberty and so on.
And he does Seek, tune, find, visual expression of those, that kind of
ideal through, let's say, editing out everything that's unnecessary in
whatever it is that he's actually making.
But almost every time, whether in whatever medium he's using, and I think
this was a deliberate ploy on his part.
he leaves evidence of the effort and struggle that it cost him.
So there are frequently rubbings out, scratches evident obvious corrections
that are there on the particularly in the, in the paintings or or,
or, or drawings, sculptures too.
So the, the, so yes, his subject matter might be a dancing.
A dancing figure or figures.
And, you know, a DA dance in a, in a landscape, you know, that's a,
a kind of trope for a, a a, a sort of paradise on earth, let's say.
But but it can be very glib and and.
and forgettable.
But the way Matisse does that is is, is not and therefore, therefore,
you know, he's, he's special.
Rupert Isaacson: He has a particular painting called Joy of Life which
I think expresses that philosophy.
And I know that Picasso regarded him as a great rival.
So he obviously made Picasso feel insecure.
So Picasso had to diss him in the same way that Picasso had to diss Dali.
And he called Dali the great masturbator.
Because, you know, obviously, I guess he didn't like other
people being as good as him.
And Picasso, as we know famously, does deal with all the dark stuff.
And I often feel that that's just too easy.
Oh, I'm going to do the darkest, darkest, darkest, as if that was anything special.
The world is full of darkness.
We see it all around us.
We know what's been going on in the last, you know, 18 months in the world.
Just now, you know, it's darkest all as dark can be.
But is that really where we want to put our attention all the time?
And people who are going through darkness certainly don't want to.
So to celebrate darkness, I always feel for its own sake is almost, it's just a
bit like social media pricking people's amygdala so they'll buy your product
and, you know, pay attention to you.
Do you feel that when you're drawing people's attention to Matisse in
particular, is that in the back of your mind that you're trying to make the,
really, or promulgate that philosophy, I suppose?
Be joyful.
Life is short, be joyful.
I, yes, I mean, I,
Tom Parsons: Yeah, it, it slightly depends on the context in which I'm teaching
him, but, but, but but certainly the,
yeah, you know, the, the idea that that, that whatever beauty he however beautiful
the, the image might be, it's, he, he does leave, as I say, sort of yeah.
Traces of the, of, of the, of the price paid.
No one
Rupert Isaacson: said it would be easy, right?
Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which, so there's a sort of, a sense of,
Rupert Isaacson: Got to put some effort into it.
Tom Parsons: Yeah, it, it, it's a, it, it kind of validates
or, or enhances the value.
Yeah.
Tom Parsons: Of of something which otherwise might be merely
pretty or at worst, as I say, kind of glib and forgettable.
Rupert Isaacson: There's a fairly unforgettable story you once
told me about him and Picasso.
I think listeners deserve to hear it.
Tom Parsons: The, I think I know the one, the, the the, yeah, Picasso and Matisse
recognised each other as rivals from the, from the, beginning.
And, and the relationship was, was an uneasy one.
But it morphed from rivalry and, and sort of, it never entirely lost, I
think, a sense of competition, but but it morphed into, into a, into a a
friendship, but, but not an intimate one.
One that was absolutely based on mutual respect.
Despite the, the, you know, despite the, the being so different as artists
and I think as, as, as people, but anyway, the story is of as both
now in their, in their later years.
Picasso's about 10 years younger than Matisse, but, and Matisse
is now an old man living down in Nice, Picasso's there as well.
Anyway, they, they used to, they used to meet up, but every now and again, but,
but such meetings had to be pre, pre arranged through their secretaries, you
know, that and Picasso obviously broke that sort of unwritten rule one time.
And turned up at Matisse's apartment with his, his lover was that Francoise?
I think it was Francoise, she loved, anyway.
And they're looking, they're trying to find where Matisse is.
Matisse kept, kept the window shutters drawn to, to protect his eyesight
unless, unless he was working.
Anyway, so that.
Picasso and mistress are wandering through the rooms,
wondering where Matisse might be.
And suddenly, the very elderly Matisse pops out from behind a
cupboard and and says coo coo coo coo coo coo and then stops horrified
because it's not his secretary and
Ian.
Yeah, but it's it's Lydia.
Sorry, it's he, Picasso.
Thought it was Lydia.
And anyway,
Rupert Isaacson: Matisse thought it was Lydia,
Tom Parsons: Sorry.
Matisse thought it was Lydia and, and and it's not.
Anyway, so he's, he's . And so he's sort of discover, he's sort of, yeah, Picasso
loved that story 'cause he'd sort of caught, caught out Matis who never let
anything like that ever be known or seen.
In, in public, whereas, of course, Picasso's reputation
was quite the reverse.
But anyway so yeah, that that, that, that, anyway, that, that, in the end,
when Matisse died, there's Picasso
went into a sort of mini depression and stopped working.
Oh, I can't remember how long it was for, but it was, you know, he, he was
So Mattis is dead, Mattis is dead, Mattis is dead, and then paints these
very, these, these, a series of pictures that are sort of elegiac farewells.
To, to Matisse, it's, it's.
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh, I didn't know about those.
Let me look those up.
To Matisse from Picasso.
Tom Parsons: No, you'd have, they're, oh, I can't think of the title off
the top of my head, but they're interiors of his own studio space in
a villa that was called La Californie.
And that they, and there's more than one, it might be quite hard to find.
immediately, but but they contain sort of visual little visual
links to works by Matisse.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow, I'm just reading this now.
So when the older Matisse died in 1954, Picasso found himself
struggling to cope with the sudden absence of his great rival.
Yes, he is dead, Picasso said profoundly, and I am continuing his paintings.
In the immediate aftermath of Matisse's death, Picasso did just that.
Interesting.
I had no idea.
I feel also I just realized I was a bit mean to Picasso there about
dealing with the dark stuff He was after all Living through the Spanish
Civil War and all its atrocities.
So, I stand a little bit Chastened.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: sorry Picasso All right.
So one of the things which I like about that story is of Picasso
jumping out from behind the dresser thinking it was going to be his
lover and it wasn't, it was Picasso.
Is this idea of folly, and I can't remember which philosopher writes this.
Is it Montaigne or is it somebody like that?
Basically that there is no happiness that does not contain some degree of folly.
That it's necessary, it's necessary for joy, it's necessary for the soul.
And of course, we've talked about.
We've, you know, edited a lot of the silly things that we've done,
but we've alluded to a couple.
But you and I have definitely gotten our PhDs in folly in many ways.
And it's one of the things actually I respect the most about you.
And I always respect this about people who are willing to not stand on their
dignity, willing to let their dignity go.
In fact, I remember once I wish I'd been there, but you had told me that
you delivered a homily on dignity at a party of our mutual friend Robert,
and then probably fell off the wall cause you were drunk and or tried
to jump on top of it and fell over backwards and exactly as one should.
It's that kind of thing, which I think makes people their most.
Lovable and
sparks are mutual.
You know, our feeling of common humanity.
And it's, it's so important PE that one can act with some folly in life.
Otherwise.
What is li what is life without that?
I mean, what a gray desert.
That sounds like otherwise.
Okay, so we are moving towards.
The last portion of this, you, you spent the last 20 years pastoral care being
a housemaster at Hogwarts, I think, is it Hufflepuff or is it Ravenclaw
that you are the hou, well, the house master of it, it was one of them.
But for those listeners it was a school very much like that, that Hogwarts is
kind of based around these ideas and, but of course, you know, kids off at
boarding schools, they're lonely, they.
They are cut off from their families.
It's tough and it's not really how humans are ever supposed to do things.
So when you find yourself in the pastoral care of these people, you know, the
fact that you understand something about folly becomes massively important.
Otherwise, what tools have you got?
To to help them through.
I also want to talk a little bit just about false starts So people often think
when you're doing say a story like this, this is live free ride free I'm sort
of celebrating your life because you've been living this self determined life
based around following your passions Making those available to the world and
I feel everyone who's come into contact with that myself included benefits It
can feel like a retrospective often of Great successors, but I know that
actually it's the follies and the things that are not successful that are often
actually the most important that inform and then become successors later on.
So I remember right after university, you were also booked to do a PhD and
that's when Matisse came in and you wrote a very beautiful book on Matisse,
which is still out there, I think.
You should go look for Thomas Parsons book on Matisse on Amazon.
Published by Studio Editions.
Big, thick thing, and it's brilliant.
And I'll plug that again at the end and all the other stuff you've written.
Tom's written a lot of books.
And then that PhD didn't happen.
And then, right after, there was also a point where you had your first
son, Hector, who's my, my godson.
And you and Katie, your wife, who's also an old friend of mine.
One of my oldest friends.
Moved to Italy and made a kind of bid for happiness and you were working
and making yourself a carving out a life there as a freelancer and then
boom Katie gets Pregnant with twins and gotta go home and get a job.
Some people would have seen those or interpreted say those two events.
I start the PhD, I don't get the PhD.
I want to move to Rome and do this big thing and I actually have to go
back to England because da da da.
In terms of well those, oh, acts of folly and okay they didn't
work out or something like that.
But I don't see it that way at all.
And I think it's very important to look at.
those types of experiences and then see what they give you in terms of how they
inform perspective and Helping other people with what seem at the time to
be great disappointments, but actually turn out to be gateways to other things
Just talk a little bit about those experiences and how they've helped You
do what you do and particularly spoke, which is your sort of next thing.
How have those Seemingly false starts or one step forward two steps back
type thing helped you put this other thing together, which you're now doing
Tom Parsons: Okay.
Yeah the well, okay, so briefly, the PhD that never got finished through doing
that I I, I met two, well, three people, two of whom we've mentioned, Nick and
Robert and Cargs, and it was through them that I started teaching in Italy.
Cargs is Sarah
Rupert Isaacson: Cargorm.
Yeah, yeah.
Tom Parsons: And then, really, as it was through, well, God, through that,
I, I, I got my first work contract.
And Because of those, I would then, you know, got freelance work at the
National Gallery in the Tate and so on and then when, when, when it was
needed, or at least I felt it was needed it got me the job at, at the
school when we suddenly had, had, had the prospect of sort of three kids
and, and so actually it all led to
It all led to, you know, a good end result.
Anyway, yeah, so for now Spoke is, is
Rupert Isaacson: What, yeah, what is Spoke?
Tom Parsons: Spoke is something that, that I kind of began at school and will
continue with now as I, as I've left.
I will continue to sort of make it, make it, make it, make it grow.
But basically it's a, it's a documentary competition aimed for school students,
say up to anyone, different age, age age ranges up to, up to 18.
And there are two competitions.
One is to make a documentary about a, a work of art the other is to make a short
film about, in response to a, a poem.
So in both cases, the, the.
students choose either a poem or a work of art and make a film about them.
They, they send them in.
I have a panel of judges.
You've been a loyal, hardworking judge over the, over the years.
And and then, and then, and then people win prizes.
So, it's, always spoke is actually 10 years old this year.
But it's always been quite a well, it's, you know, it's tiny.
It's quite modest in terms of the numbers who enter, and I would love
to make it something bigger, but I now have the the time to do that.
And, So that's, yeah, so that's what Spoke is.
Again, you know, that wouldn't have happened without, I
guess, me being at school.
I don't think I'd have thought of it.
So, anyway, yeah, it's a good thing.
Rupert Isaacson: What, where's Spoke going to go?
What are you doing with it?
Okay, so it's, it's, it's something, it's all about art for young people, and you've
now added poetry, and you've added art.
Tom Parsons: Where's
Rupert Isaacson: it going?
And why is doing something like this important?
Tom Parsons: I think that okay, I mean, I need to focus.
Effort and time into, into growing it and, and but the reason it's important
is because it, it is it's, it's creative.
It's not restricted by, by the syllabus and, or by the the, the, the, the,
the, the exam boards and the sort of.
That, that side of education in, within, within school.
So you, you, the, the students are completely free to to do, to follow
whatever path they, they, they choose.
They can choose any barren, any work of art, and so on.
They don't have to repeat what their teachers have told them.
They can make connections to anything, anything at all.
So that's, that's the sort of creative freedom that it offers.
Secondly again, actually, it's almost where we began, but, you know, ours is
such a visual, visual culture, and the, particularly with the smartphone now,
the making of films is something which you know, we're doing it all the time
and especially, I, but for any sort of student for whom the written word is,
is not, you know, if that's not their chosen medium, if they're not comfortable
there and it is still the main area in which our education system tests people.
If actually you want to express your admiration and understanding of a panel
or a work of art you can, and you, you would rather do that visually.
Spoke gives you that, gives you that opportunity.
So, so I thought, yeah, it's sort of, it, it fits the zeitgeist because it's,
it's film and it's, and it offers, it's an opportunity to be analytical
up to a point but and technically, technically competent up to a point,
but most of all sort of creative.
So that's what Spoken's.
Rupert Isaacson: It's a really interesting trajectory, I feel, your
life, and one that has been governed by
the Loyal and relentless pursuit of what matters to your soul, knowing that that's
going to matter to other people's souls, and making that available to people.
And now with Spoke, it's so interesting to me.
You're how old now?
60.
Okay, you don't look a day over 80, you look amazing.
Just like me.
Right, I'm so used to hearing people say, Oh, yeah, well, you know, I'm
retiring now and that sort of like they're just gonna stop doing stuff
and I've never understood that My own grandfather worked until he died.
I why would you like my dad?
He's 91 Okay, he's not doing as much as he used to but he's still doing a lot.
Why would you stop?
Doing stuff.
I can see, you know, it's nice to have choice about things and it's
not about how you put your time.
Yeah.
Great.
Fantastic.
The the desperate edge of working, relaxing.
Wonderful.
Bring that on.
But to not work just seems to me we're born, I feel, to work.
So I weirdly feel that with Spoke, even though I've been seeing you grow it
for the last 10 years, I feel you're actually just on the cusp now of
possibly the busiest period of your life.
as you retire.
And I think you've already actually helped some young people
establish themselves with this.
Have some, you, you actually told me of one or two who've gone on to
become filmmakers having got a bit of their early start with Spoke now
on your judges panel, for example.
Tom Parsons: Yeah, there's, yeah, there's one.
Tell me a
Rupert Isaacson: little bit about her.
Tom Parsons: Amber, Amber Bardell, and she won one of the
very early competitions with.
A film she made on a work by Banksy.
Okay.
And it, and you know, made, just beautifully filmed.
Really very, made, and clearly made at home.
And there's some great shots of the garden shed.
And so on.
But anyway so, you know, using using, just using what was available
got actually quite limited sort of means available in terms of place.
But, but in terms of the, the structuring of the film and the editing and the
camera shots and so on and so forth, it was really good, really, really good.
It's, it's up there.
On the spoke website, the only problem being that you need to email me first
to get the password to watch it because it's not on none of the films at the
moment are immediately accessible because I'm slightly worried about copyright.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Tom Parsons: But but anyway, but it's certainly viewable
for, you know, anyone who Do you
Rupert Isaacson: remember what year it was that she won?
Tom Parsons: Tw
no, not off the top of my head.
16, 2016 maybe?
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Because I'm looking her up now.
She's there on IMDB.
Yeah.
And there's a work by her called Art as Catharsis, you know,
it's the healing part of art.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Nature of Art on there.
She's obviously well on her way.
Amber Bardell.
Yeah.
So it's interesting how all these experiences and all this pursuit
of fulfillment and joy now you are helping people who are our age
when we were beginning all this, get a hand up on top of the wall.
So much of it I feel is about quality of life and we, we are in a day and age
where it's a good thing that we're having.
The discussions we never used to have about mental health.
And at the same time, I sometimes feel that those discussions have become so loud
that they almost drown out the value of.
The pursuit of joy for its own sake, which of course is part of good mental health.
What has been, I think, the untold story through your whole thing
has been this thing of service.
So you, you, you get religion because the messages of the Christ message, as well
as a bit of a desire to rebel against your secular parents resonate on this deep
ideological level, idealistical level.
This leads you to go out and almost get burning.
Walk oil thrown all over your face helping heroin addicts coming out of the
street in Hong Kong and a lot of those would have been triad gang people and
so on and then you put that down, but you keep your idealism and You take off
after art and you pursue it and you open this up school kids in London Privileged
kids in Italy everyone everyone who comes in front of you gets that side,
it gets, gets their eyes open this way.
And then you take on the pastoral care of the youth at Hogwarts and
have to do that for 20 years, which is no mean feat to be a housemaster,
effectively a parent in absentia, while making the world of aesthetics
and awe available for those beautiful neurological effects we explored earlier.
And now here you are with The Spoke offering young people a way,
basically, to pursue their careers.
My friend, that's a self actualised laugh if I ever heard one.
So, we're right at the sort of two hour, probably gone over mark.
So I think we should leave it there, but I want people to know how to
Contact you get in touch with spoke.
There'll be people listening.
You've got kids who want to enter these competitions so If you will could,
could you read out the various websites whereby people can find you and your
work and your lectures in London, which are happening on a regular basis and
are brilliant and entertaining and funny and wonderful, and just let people know
where they can come and get a bit of Tom.
Tom Parsons: Okay.
Thank you Ray.
So spoke is.
Www.
spokecompetition.
com.
Rupert Isaacson: Spokecompetition.
com.
Tom Parsons: And it's kind of bright.
Once you're in, it's kind of bright and yellow.
And, and, and, and then, you know, have a navigate around there,
but there's a, there's an I think on the homepage, there's an, my,
my kind of spoke email is there.
So if you want to be in touch, please do, please, please do.
Rupert Isaacson: You want to enter a film, if you want to enter a
poem, if you want to enter some art.
Yeah.
Tom Parsons: So, and
then, yeah, yes, there are lectures too that I'm giving.
Tell us
Rupert Isaacson: about the lectures.
How do we come to see a Tom Parsons lecture?
Tom Parsons: Lectures are in London once a month.
And they are, and I have a different website for that
because it's slightly different.
Rupert Isaacson: What is that website?
Tom Parsons: That's just tomparsons.
org.
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
Tom Parsons: And they, and they are, I'll basically, I'll give a lecture on
an artist or artists.
Re relate directly linked to, to an exhibition that's on in London
at, at that moment, at that time.
And you come along, we have, we, we have a glass of wine, something
to some nice things to eat.
And, and then I give
, Rupert Isaacson: where do they take place?
These lectures.
Tom Parsons: And they take place just around the back of tape, modern
in in an architectural, rather beautiful architectural office.
Belonging to my friend, Tom, and, and then actually, and then the,
the, the, the money that those raise goes partly towards Spoke and partly
to a therapeutic project, which Tim McHour, who's, who's officers we use.
Which he's, he's involved in, in creating for for young people
with, with mental health problems.
Yeah.
So there's a sort of, there's a you know, a sort of charitable aspect to,
to, to, to those lectures as well.
Rupert Isaacson: So if you have never attended a Tom Parsons
lecture, you'll laugh a lot.
And you'll be informed and it will be joyful.
Ooh, a lot of Renaissance stuff there.
Someone I've never heard of you're talking about on Wednesday, the
14th of May, Ithel or Ithel Cahoon.
Tom Parsons: Cahoon, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Who's that when they're at home?
Tom Parsons: English surrealist artist.
Oh, she's, she's great.
She's really fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Still around?
Tom Parsons: Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: that's
Tom Parsons: it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's Ithel.
I T H E L L.
No, no, no.
Ithel.
Ithel Cahoon.
Cahoon is also spelt weird.
It's Colquhoun.
For those
Rupert Isaacson: people who know English spellings are impossible.
Well, that's a Scottish name, actually.
Ithel Cahoon.
I'm going to look her up.
And then on, Tuesday, the 17th of June, you've got Jenny Saville.
Tom Parsons: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about Jenny Saville.
Tom Parsons: She's contemporary British painter.
Very, very sort of interesting.
Almost Dali esque.
Personal presentation of the, of the, of the female body.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking at a picture by her of her knees, presumably
hers, or somebody's, in the bath.
Like their little islands, and one of them has got a beautiful stone circle
on it, like the one you see at Calanish in the Hebrides, going down into the
bath water, and then there's other megaliths sticking up out of the bath.
Well, it's great!
Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How'd you come across her?
That painting, the one you're looking at, is It's in the
tape, it's in the tape machine.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, super.
Alright, well I've learned something, as I always do when I'm with you.
And if you are listening to this not in 2025 you're coming
across this, don't worry.
All you need to do to get to a Tom lecture, there'll be more
is just go to Tom Parsons Right?
T O M P A R S O N S dot O R G.
And Tom Parsons, art historian.
Thank you so much for coming on Live Free, Ride Free.
Tom Parsons: My pleasure.
Really.
Thank you very much indeed.
Rupert Isaacson: I've enjoyed myself immensely.
Tom Parsons: Great.
Okay.
Thanks.
Until the next time.
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