Good morning Grid Connections listeners.
Welcome back to Grid Connections, the podcast where we explore all things transportation, clean energy, and our power grid connecting all of these systems together.
In today's episode, we're joined by Corey Cantor, research director at the Zero Mission Transportation Association or Zeta for short.
His role in the conversation we had takes a data-driven look at the EV transition from public charging visibility to the scale of U.S.
manufacturing jobs.
shares what the numbers really say about market growth, consumer confidence, and how battery prices are quietly transforming everything from passenger cars to school buses.
We also dig into policies like the 30 D clean vehicle credit and the 45 X manufacturing tax credits and why building a domestic supply chain is about more than just cars.
It's about economic competitiveness and industrial resilience.
Some of the takeaways from this episode, we cover why battery prices are the real unsung hero of the EV boom.
What the data says about consumer barriers and how they're shifting, how visibility and proximity to charging stations influence buyer intent.
and what's happening across the EV ecosystem from lamppost chargers to lithium mines.
If you're curious about where EV adoption is headed and what's working behind the scenes to drive it, this is an episode you don't want to miss, but please do us a favor.
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With that, enjoy.
Thank you so much for having me, Chase.
Yeah, always really a good time to talk about electric vehicles and kind of nerd out on different aspects of the transition.
So appreciate you having me.
Our pleasure.
And we'll have links to some of the previous episodes we've had with Zeta, but just in case anyone listening today isn't familiar with what your team does, can you just share a
little bit background about the organization and then what you do at Zeta as well.
Yeah, so we are a trade association that represents the EV and battery supply chain, advocating for more investment in the US EV and battery supply chain, more jobs across,
you all the way from critical mineral producers to EV OEMs to battery manufacturers and charging companies.
so Zeta Works is based down in DC, focusing on a lot of the major federal incentive and
policy issues down there, and also works hard to make sure that the industry's perspective is heard.
And then within the kind of Zeta team, on the research side, I like to think of myself as a support player among many of our functions.
So whether it's communications and conversations like we're having here today, we're helping our great Hill staff work on their kind of federal affairs strategy with more
research and data and policy as well.
So a little bit of everything, Chase.
trying to mix it up here.
Well, I think as the research director, let's, mean, are there, what are the trends that you're seeing that are really kind of maybe standing out to you right now, or maybe things
that you're not, you don't think are getting enough attention that is really kind of coming out with the data that your team's finding.
Yeah, I I think when it comes to EV transition in general, right, there is so much news on a weekly basis or a daily basis that there isn't often enough stepping back to just see
how far the industry has come in a fairly short period of time, both kind of globally, but then also in the U.S.
perspective.
You know, I went to graduate school in 2017 and that was the first time global passenger EV sales hit one million units.
That was, I guess, eight years ago now.
And the whole global industry doubled in about a two year time.
So went into grad school, left grad school, and it was twice as big at 2 million units.
Last year, global passenger EV sales hit 17 million units.
again, just magnitudes larger in such a short period of time, reaching about 20 % of all new car sales.
That's a really positive story.
And the US has kind of followed that trend.
We saw about a million units being broken for the first time.
back in 2023 and then in 2024, EV sales here in the US grew by about 21%.
That's including both battery electric and plug-in hybrid for that data.
For fully electric vehicles, up about 15%.
But it's this constant kind of improvement.
Another metric I think that a lot of people in the industry and I'm sure your listeners have heard is electric vehicle share of sales, right?
So when I started my previous role, which was at Bloomberg NEF, a research firm,
EV share of sale in the US in 2019 was about 2%.
And last year we were at 10 % in 2024.
So that's in about a five year period growing by 5x.
It's a positive story.
And it's not to say we can't get into some real challenges and uncertainty that the industry is facing.
But we're talking about fundamentally changing the automotive industry, something that hasn't happened for about 100 years.
So.
It's really exciting and you have to kind of step back and see the forest for the trees sometimes.
And I think if you're working around all these companies, it's really fun and interesting to see all of the kind of different approaches to the transition.
Yeah, I think that's a great call out.
was at the EV charging summit and expo last week.
And I think there were maybe some people who were either newer to the industry or kind of like down on just some of the headlines and news out there.
But when you start talking about like how quickly this transition has happened, mean, one of the big things I like to always remind people is EVs have been a thing for the last
decade, but it's actually only within the last few years that there are electric vehicles that consumers can buy sometimes.
out of their price range, but there weren't even electric trucks until just a few years ago.
So much of the American automotive segment.
And now we're not only seeing more of these, but we're finally starting to see even that start to come down and cost.
and I think in addition to that, something you hit on that's really, just wild to me is not only is the EV market growing.
And part of that is now due to more and more of these different vehicle types being available for consumers and businesses alike.
But it's also the domestic auto market, at least last year for 2024 was actually shrinking and not doing very well.
So I think there was a lot of stuff kind of getting conflated with, the automotive market's not doing well.
It must be electric vehicles or why, but in reality it was the actual combustion or electric vehicle.
The actual total automotive market was shrinking.
And yet during all of that and some of the headwinds, the actual electric vehicle slice of that pie was still growing at a pretty impressive rate.
No, I mean, if you look at this kind of in the U.S.
market, we have a good stat that we actually put up on our Zeta website.
Just the compound annual growth rate of these kind of alternative drive trains.
So BEVs, PHABs, and also hybrids are really impressive over the past decade.
mean, BEVs and PHABs were both growing by a CAGR, which is awkward word to say, but about 42 % for both over that kind of 2015 to 2024 period.
And then hybrids in the conventional sense were about 19%.
Which is you nothing this loud chat given that they had made up a good portion of sales already So it is exciting to see and I think there is a lot of kind of short-term
uncertainty for the auto market overall But on the whole you just see so many more OEMs releasing EV models than even two or three years ago And everyone like you kind of alluded
to is offering different price points or different kind of segments but that's a landmark shift from
you know, 2017, where there was one major US automaker and, you know, maybe a few kinds of models with much more limited range.
Yeah, I think that's totally true.
mean, back in 2017, was the model three was like just now coming out and otherwise it was mostly their sedan and like the Nissan Leaf and within as crazy it is eight years, we now
have so many more other sedan options at all sorts of price ranges.
have the entry of electric trucks and a lot of these things.
I think that really make it a much better proposition for the average American consumer to really go electric.
Obviously the second part of that is once you've got electric to seven that infrastructure there to support it and There there was actually some really interesting data that your
team shared And I think it was kind of like as of February 2025 if I'm reading this correctly, there were over 75,000 public charging locations and What's fascinating too was
like obviously California's kind of been known as like the EV Electric vehicle kind of hub for the past decade, but there's now more
EV charging ports than there are gas nozzles.
And I'm kind of curious to kind of maybe unpack a little bit more of that and what your team is seeing and understanding around just the rollout of the infrastructure.
Yeah, I mean, I think on that point, Chase, so again, I live in New York City in Brooklyn.
And a couple of years ago, maybe it was last year, maybe two years ago, there was a piece saying that there were more EV charging ports than gas stations on Manhattan.
Now, if you're familiar with Manhattan, there aren't a ton of gas stations there.
But the overall point is that, yeah, I think that so much of the kind of early stage of EVs, there's been this thinking of
know, anxiety or charging anxiety, this is so much more difficult because it's not like our gas station experience.
But when you kind of add all of the different ways that you can charge, you know, from level two chargers that are being built from fast charging stations that are being built
across the country, you begin to see that what, you know, is initially kind of a barrier or challenge for EV adoption will eventually, I think, become something really beneficial.
You know, my dad and sister both have an EV and I think
once you make the shift to an electric vehicle, you treat it so much more like a phone.
And I'm sure many of your listeners feel that way.
You're topping off in a different way than you did for gas when maybe you were only going, when you were at 25 % of a tank with EVs.
If you're like, know, it makes sense to charge a little bit.
And there's a well-known Department of Energy stat that 80 % of charging takes place at home.
And so a lot of people have that really positive charging experience.
And OEMs, in fact, are encouraging more home charging with
you know, including a home charger in the case of some like Ford or other particular incentives.
Now on the stat that we sent you over around the, uh, you know, 75,000 public charging locations and the 221,000, you know, give or take, uh, connectors, you know, that's
doubled since 2021.
So again, it's moving in the right direction.
I think there is still a long way to go.
California is a really robust market that has been working on charging infrastructure for 10 years.
and new programs federally have kind of helped hone everyone else to kind of focus on charging.
But I think DOE even said last year that 1,000 new charging connectors were being added every week in 2024.
progress, right?
So mean, so much of this stuff is we've come such a long way and there's still quite a bit to go.
But if you're looking to buy an EV, we touched on the...
kind of upfront cost and we're touching on the charging.
Those are the two things that have improved dramatically in even two years time.
Yeah, and I think I was just even recently reminded I mean you're talking about like level two charging and Just with the V charging summit.
I was at last week obviously DC fast charging has a large role to play in this transition but I was just even reminded through the conversations I had there and then a couple
months ago we had a rental and we have two electric vehicles and At that rental there was only level one charging and both my wife and I drive quite a bit we
Easily do 30,000 miles a year and it was kind of wild to be in this rental where we were both charging our Cars on the same thing.
We charge our toothbrushes on our electric toothbrushes on and I was surprised how Easy it was and how well it worked not like as far as like they're being a failure or something,
but I've just like And maybe it's just because we've had a V's for a while.
I had a feeling like I thought it's just gonna be much more of attention
And it just to me shows that there's so much opportunity for like even especially you in New York area, like talk of like using light lamp posts and other kind of areas to just
even get level one for like on street parking and those sorts of things more easy, easily accessible for more people.
There is so much innovation in charging.
Plenty of friends or companies that I know well here, friends doing startups like It's Electric or a bunch of lamppost charging companies coming out of New Lab, which is kind
clean energy hub here in New York City.
I think it also goes to your point, Chase, of like how big this whole EV ecosystem is.
know, a lot of friends who aren't familiar with the transition will just assume that like
the major OEMs are the companies that are invested.
And then you're like, well, there's also these big charging companies that are doing fast charging, but there's also these level two charging companies.
And there's all the upstream, you know, folks who are working on the materials and the battery manufacturers.
it's, it's so much bigger and I think more interesting than you might just, and I like cars.
I love reading about the cars.
I'm going to go with my dad and maybe fiance to the car show.
in New York in a couple of weeks.
So yeah, we could talk about how exciting it is to see all the new product and how much better they've gotten, but it's a broad ecosystem here.
City charging is tough though.
I don't want to say there's a lot of kind of permitting issues and challenges around the topic, but people are invested in making it work.
And I think that's another big change as more and more companies have put out compelling EVs and Americans are buying them.
More and more people see the opportunity there to kind of aid the transition.
Well, and you guys are also spoiled in the New York area with the ultimate electric vehicle of just the subway system and you don't have to worry about charging at all there.
So, but I think those are totally fair call outs and I think let's let you're right.
Let's kind of go up the supply chain.
And I think that's what's really fascinating about some of the things that Zeta deals with is you pretty much have the full supply chain as far as clients.
And I think the battery materials, I mean, obviously like
A lot of the focus of these tariffs and other things that have been kind of going in, uh, are around trying to promote and facilitate even more domestic manufacturing and supply
chain.
But I, so I love to kind of hear what your clients in that realm are kind of focused on.
And maybe some of the things that, especially for those listening who are maybe more focused on the cars and the charging infrastructure.
what they're maybe not thinking about or just haven't heard about in those conversations.
Yeah, I mean, one big picture way to look at this is, and this is according to Atlas Public Policy, there's been about $190 billion just since 2020 invested in the EV and
battery supply chain here in the US.
So that includes everything from your lithium miners and lithium mines through what we've referred to as the midstream, which is around the cathode and anode materials that go into
batteries as well as refining.
which needs a little bit more focus or a lot of bit more focus here in the US to battery cells and there are many producers here who are Zeta members who working on that important
work to the cars themselves.
And then even after that, you've got charging and grid integration all the way down to what are you going to do with an EV battery in 10 to 15 years?
You know, does it have a second life?
Does it have the ability to get recycled?
So I kind of listed out a bunch right there.
mean, there's data members at pretty much every single one of those points.
And I think, you know, from each of their perspectives, the importance of the industry growth is paramount because having that kind of policy certainty in place, having a kind
of robust EV market allows every aspect of the supply chain to flourish.
Right?
If you know that consumers are going to buy EVs, you can open up new facilities and battery factories to support those.
electric vehicles.
If you know that there are going to be more EVs, then you can build out charging or you can build out battery recycling.
And so just like I'm sure you know, in the automotive industry in general, having that policy certainty is important.
And that's why Zeta has worked hard for advocating for credits like the 30D, clean car tax credit and 45X, a lot of that manufacturing.
And it's a lot of jobs across the country.
And Zeta has been hard at work kind of bringing awareness to many of these
regions that have been seeing kind of a battery boom, whether you're talking about a place like Savannah, Georgia or Reno, Nevada, or many different parts of the country.
Yeah, and I'm kind of curious when you're talking about the supply chain I mean obviously people think like lithium mining or sometimes cobalt and some of these other things I'm
kind of curious like is What are you hearing from some of these it's like what is needed more because obviously I think for a while there there was a big push about like the need
for graphite and maybe that wasn't kind of getting the Coverage or I mean you kind of have to go into a pretty
In-depth conversation with people in the industry to know like that's actually something that was kind of more needed in the battery pack side And i'm kind of curious if you've
just heard any shifts because there have been a lot of talks about more Of the manufacturing and mining domestic especially for like lithium but if there's kind of any
Advances you've heard in that or what are still kind of like the pain points for?
What's needed most from those suppliers?
I mean, you I'm not going to speak for, think, any of the individual companies just because, you you're welcome to have them on the show and kind of ask their approach.
I think this idea of when you look at building up a robust market, even in places like Europe or China, took, you know, it wasn't like a light switch, right?
You look at Norway, which is the kind of quintessential EV market example, or even California, it takes time and policy certainty to kind of level that out.
So Zeta has been working hard to point out the benefits of things like 30D's demand pull or the 45X Advanced Manufacturing Credit on not only battery manufacturing, but around
critical minerals.
And in both cases, 30D being so stringent around what critical minerals or what battery components you can use, that kind of overall kind of symbiosis.
I think is important and having the certainty that if a company is making these investments to have the kind of runway to see that the landscape won't necessarily change
too much.
Again, every aspect of the supply chain is a little bit different.
If you're a charging company, you have different needs than if you're, let's say, a lithium mine.
But each of these folks are a little bit interdependent on the other.
It's not like...
You know, one part of the supply chain, if it's overly vulnerable, doesn't create a gap.
But I think what's so great about the work that Zeta is doing is we really are focused on each of it.
And our members are pretty enthusiastic about the transition.
mean, talking about just the kind of paradigm shift from even a couple of years ago, you're hearing folks across the kind of political spectrum recognize that the EV
transition is now.
And I think that's exciting too.
And I think that's an important step.
So it's not necessarily a policy ask, Chase.
There are plenty of policy asks I think that all these groups have, but it's really a recognition that everyone has got to kind of work together to kind of build out this EV
ecosystem here in the US.
Yeah, I think that's a great call and maybe it would also help to kind of take a step back.
I mean, obviously you've kind of alluded to a couple of these.
I guess the 45X, some of those policies are kind of helping implement and make this happen.
For those who are listening who may not be familiar, could you share a little bit more detail about what those are specifically and then maybe some of the positive outcomes and
wins we've seen from.
Yeah, I'll give a high level, just because we got a great policy team and a great policy director.
so also a good guest for future episodes.
But 30D is what is typically referred to as the clean car tax credit.
That's your $7,500 for consumers who go out and purchase an electric vehicle.
A couple of years ago, they made some changes to 30D to tie it much more closely to on-shoring.
or friendshoring with US free trade agreement allies or being final assembly here in North America to qualify for the credit.
So when you've seen automakers move their production of electric vehicles to the US, typically it's been so that their vehicle can have access to the 30 D tax credit and the
IRS and Treasury have a list of which cars are qualifying and it has changed a little bit from year to year.
There's also additional credits around commercial vehicles.
that also offer either $7,500 or more if it's a kind of electric truck.
And then 45X is a per kilowatt hour kind of subsidy for battery manufacturing or kind of percentage around critical minerals.
So 35 for sell and $10 per kilowatt hour per pack, you know, has a benefit differently depending on how your joint venture or your company is set up.
But each of these policies,
were devised in a way that could encourage more people to change their suppliers and bring them closer here to the US.
so Zeta has been hard at work and our Federal Affairs team has been working hard to just show that it's not just about the incentive, but really the incentive is tied to many of
these manufacturing facilities.
that are either built here in the US or about to be built.
That kind of demand pull is important because if you're an OEM, you want to make sure that people are able to afford the cars and that you're making a worthwhile investment.
Thank you.
And I think that totally makes sense as far as what we're seeing with that kind of consistency and growth and having those systems in place.
I guess to take a little step back to the charging side of stuff, I know some of the research you've done, one of the slides you kind of shared with me in advance, that was
interesting.
And I, I don't think it was terribly surprising, but just kind of having the data around it was around like the perceived barriers to buying electric cars.
How they've kind of changed over time and the kind of three that you cited or showed were kind of like low mileage range they're too expensive and then lack of charging stations
and It's been interesting to see how that's kind of changed over time and I'd be just kind of curious to expand upon that and what you're seeing and Maybe like how you're kind of
talking with these and what what that's what those conversations are leading to from this research
Yeah, I mean, and so to give kudos to Cox Automotive, who puts out a survey every year tracking consumer behavior and a lot of good firms who work on that issue.
JD Power is another one.
I think it's the way I've always tried to frame this is if you're addressing the major issues that people have with a product, right, you're going to make them more comfortable
with getting it.
And so seeing things like low mileage range being less of a concern and kind of falling.
Only highlights that you're seeing more and more electric vehicles go for 250 miles on the charge, 300 miles on the charge, 350 miles on a single charge.
And that's a real shift from five years ago, but really 10 years ago, that kind of first gen, second gen Nissan Leaf.
On charging, as we kind of discussed, more and more people are seeing charging stations around them.
In the deck I sent you, I thought you were gonna go in this direction, Chase, around the Pew Research study that shows
Just how different people's behaviors or willingness to buy an EV is when you live a mile away from a charger.
Yeah, I wanted to cover that too.
mean, let's cover anywhere and everywhere you want to go.
Because I mean, you threw all this great data.
I I definitely want to go through it.
It is all really fascinating.
But it illustrates that this is something that can change over time.
Alex and the comms team does a lot of great research and say that as well.
it's this idea that perception isn't sunken, right?
That people do have questions and maybe anxieties around switching to electric vehicles, but they aren't necessarily deeply held in a negative sense, right?
I think people are more and more willing to learn more.
And then finally, on the kind of expensive, we talked a little bit about this, but I think to just reiterate this point, if you go to Edmunds and you look at the average new vehicle
price and the last year, beginning of this year, all pre kind of the current tariff conversation, but about $50,000.
And if you look at the highest selling electric vehicles out there in 2024, a lot of them are in that 40 to $50,000 price range below that kind of average.
So whether you're talking about
you know, the Model Y, whether you're talking about an Equinox, whether you're talking about Equinox EV, talking about Honda Prologue, there are success stories out there as
more and more of the kind of mainstream market has become accessible.
So on each of those three issues that Cox listed in 2023, it's this idea of improvements have been made, but there's more to go.
And I think that's heartening because it's not an insurmountable challenge.
think, frankly, the biggest challenge right now might be the uncertainty around
both federal policy and kind of market conditions.
But the fundamental concern that people have with EVs is moving in the right direction.
I think that's a good thing to see.
Yeah, I completely agree.
I think everything that you shared was really fascinating just because it kind of reinforced a lot of the positive momentum I've seen and kind of made it instead of
anecdotal really drew a lot of those numbers to it.
yeah, let's kind of expand some of these other things that you shared.
think obviously the Pew Research one is really fascinating.
I mean, where do you want to start or what's really staying out to you at the moment?
Yeah, well, let's talk about the Pew Research one since we're on charging.
And then if we want to go, I want to like pull it up in front of myself just so I'm accurately citing it.
But basically what Pew did, and this was released last year, but over kind of a couple of research periods and survey periods, they looked at adults who lived a certain amount of
miles away from a charging station and said, are you likely to consider purchasing an electric vehicle as your next purchase?
or a hybrid vehicle or currently on an EV or hybrid, depending on how far you live to a charging station.
And not surprisingly, those who lived less than a mile away from a charger were somewhat likely to seriously consider purchasing an electric vehicle the next time.
And I'm reading that very carefully because as you know, with any survey, the words you choose is very important.
About 47%, so nearly half of the participants who live less than a mile.
you know, saw this as a positive, you know, future kind of oriented vehicle, one to two miles, a bit less, about 38 % of the respondents.
And then if you were more than two miles, it was about 27%.
So again, that kind of positive relationship, with how close you live to a charger.
Another question was how confident are you that the U S will build out a charging infrastructure network?
And not surprisingly, the closer you live to a charger, the more confident you were.
Again, the confidence level wasn't nearly as high for the charging build out as it was for the considering EV, which means that there's more work to do, I think, in ensuring that
consumers are confident.
Again, the survey was a couple years ago.
I think like anything, you always want the latest data, but stuff like this probably takes a bit longer than other survey types.
Yeah, I think one other interesting thing that I was kind of even reminded again, talking about, just the current state of EV charging this past week at, the EV charging summit was
there's still a lot of work to be done around just the visibility of electric vehicle chargers.
Yeah.
And I'm kind of curious, what your team is seeing or kind of heard around that, because I think that's totally true.
think there's a lot more people that.
are probably a mile or pretty close to you be charting and just probably aren't seeing it visually.
So they don't really realize.
And I think that's what's so important about this dynamic.
When you hear numbers like that about the interest and how that ties to kind of the confidence people have in going electric that a lot of the time, I think there's just a
big challenge in that visibility.
Yeah, I mean, I don't have a research point to kind of direct you towards.
think signs are always a good thing.
And I think also a lot of these EV charging companies are new, right?
Outside of maybe a well established brand, like a Tesla charging that you've heard of other ones, you know, may not be a company you're familiar with, or they're just kind of
building up more and more chargers.
The other thing is, which I'm sure you know, having two EVs is when you own an electric vehicle, the EV itself will direct you towards charging stations, right?
So I think a lot of times the signage is
You know, more so for those who don't own an EV to be like, this is here in real thing.
You're also seeing more electric vehicle charging stations that are designed maybe similarly to a rest stop or a gas station and maybe less that are kind of in a mall back
parking lot.
A lot of interesting articles out over the past year, kind of looking at some of the new companies and their strategy.
And everyone is differing a little bit with how they're playing in the fast charging space.
But yeah, I agree that.
There is a psychological element here and making sure that people understand that there is chargers around them if you don't have an app.
And so it's easy.
In New York, you see on some of the garages that there's EV chargers.
But when it comes to the fast charging, if I wasn't in the EV space and attending events where you hear about Xhub being built out, I wouldn't really know.
Yeah, I think one of the things that stood out to me in the conversation I had was around if you're not a person in the know Yeah, maybe you come up to a Tesla supercharger and
says Tesla on it.
You're like, okay Maybe those are charged but especially if you're by some sort of just average charger and especially if it's like in the back of a lot and there's no car
charging there the average person just assumes like that's electrical trans it's just like something they have no idea what it is and
kind of just blends into the background as like being an electrical transformer or something else versus having that like active perception of seeing a chart like a car
charging in it to know that's what it actually is.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's completely spot on.
And I think that's also aligns with when you leave.
Yeah.
The early adopter phase of any technology, right, are going to be really well regarded and well known on a topic.
I mean, I'll even even date myself and say, like, I'm a big Nintendo fan and there's a Nintendo Switch 2 coming out.
I'm an early adopter.
know all the details on it and research on it.
And we'll look into it.
but you're selling to a mass market, whether you're an EV company, a video game maker, whoever, when you leave that kind of small phase of the people who are diehards, who
understand charging, who understand range, who understand home charging versus L2 charging versus, I mean, some home charging is L2 charging, versus fast charging, reaching those
new consumers and getting them comfortable is really important.
And the industry has been working hard at it, but it's on all of us together to help explain.
the benefits of charging.
I was at an event where, you know, kind of a round table thing and, you know, two of the benefits I think that were mentioned around EVs, around charging, that again, you have to
restate because people who don't have EVs don't recognize it as one, you know, you never have to go to a gas station again.
And that is such a seismic shift in how you use your driving time that sometimes I think EV owners almost underappreciate it.
You know,
My dad will sometimes say like, it's been X amount of time since I've been at a gas station.
But beyond that, you kind of made the transition and moved on.
The other one is just how affordable a lot of charging is.
Every state has different electricity prices and different moments where electricity may be in higher demand.
But on the whole, there's a lot of benefit and efficiency to electric vehicle charging as well.
So two points that again, until you're like in it,
or you own an EV, you won't necessarily know, but are important to reiterate.
Are there any other things that you've seen or just kind of noticed that are especially around any data that are those kind of mental shift moments that really kind of realign
and make the person think, I didn't really think of it that way or you're finding a lot of success for people to try and get it to really connect with what's actually happening with
electrification.
You know, those are two good points there.
also depends who your audience is or what type of person you're talking to.
think just like in other technologies, when you have friends who own the product, think surveys and data has shown that there's a more positive inclination towards electric
vehicles versus like them being kind of a far off futuristic thing.
like a friend or a colleague or family member has them.
We just, this is a little bit of a tangent, but we just put out a poll.
with a couple of other groups, and I'm even gonna pull up the groups here, basically outlining that electric vehicles kind of across the political spectrum are pretty positive
in terms of Democrats, Republicans, and independents.
so, more and more people see electric vehicle investment here in the US as a important thing.
And so that's another kind of shift on top of just the kind of benefits that you see.
know, of stats that kind of draw people to that space.
But again, people might not be thinking about it, even if it's a point that they agree with, top of mind.
And the overall top line number here and the other groups that we were working with was in releasing the poll with Centerline Liberties and the Conservative Energy Network.
But really, you you saw 85 % of voters believing that, you know, the federal government should support American companies that are aiming to make affordable and powerful electric
vehicles and
76 % of Republicans surveyed felt the same way.
So it's more and more people kind of are seeing the benefits of this EV industry.
But again, I think continuing the conversation or bringing up the kind of advantages and points is key.
Yeah, one of the things you shared with me, kind of before this was around like the, I believe it's a hundred over 157 billion in us, EV battering, critical, critic critical
mineral supply chain investments.
and that's just really since the, by, the infrastructure law was passed.
And if everything kind of falls through and goes forward, that means
You're seeing probably resulting in about a hundred sixty three thousand jobs Do you see that as being a big part of the reason that there's just becoming such a large?
kind of cohesion Between like people just being much more open to and for electric vehicles because I do feel like there has been a pretty big I've been impressed surprised
by not just the Openness to an electric vehicle because I feel like I knew quite a few people across the spectrum politically
that had, some, they were like kind of open to it, but they're like, you know, that's great, but it's not for me.
And now it seems to be like, well, maybe that will be my next car.
And I, I'm curious if there's any other kind of trends around that, that you're seeing in it.
It really seems like in my anecdotal experience, a big piece of that conversation is around account, the job creation and domestic manufacturing.
Yeah, and mean, you're seeing, know, Zeta has cited this quite a bit, about three or four of electric vehicles sold in the US were made in the US.
You've seen, you know, many electric vehicles, final assembly in North America, which is really important, and overall supporting, you know, anywhere between the kind of 190 to
240,000 jobs, depending on how far back you're going to start your data point.
And so it is becoming integrated into the automotive industry in a way that is exciting and interesting to follow and important for the U.S.
in global competitiveness.
know, in a previous life when I was at Bloomberg, you know, did a lot of traveling internationally and went to places like South Korea, Japan, and they're just as passionate
about their automotive base there as Americans are here, for seeing companies succeed.
And I think, you know, there's a pride in it.
many people's livelihoods depending on it.
And every country for the most part now, you know, is invested in the CV transition or working to make some type of clean car transition work.
I won't say that, you know, US, South Korea, Japan, China, EU are all exactly the same in their approaches.
Obviously, they're very different places, but the jobs and supply chain here and impact is real.
And I think that's what Zeta has been pointing out as it's been going.
across the country to show that it's not just about one vehicle or one company or one subsidy, but really global competitiveness and real opportunity here in the US in terms of
work.
Yeah, I mean, that does seem to be a pretty core.
I feel like with some of the international or previously like kind of global messaging around it, obviously a big part of it to start with kind of the environment and there's
still definitely a portion of that, but it really just seems like the biggest thing has been just the connection with messaging globally around the jobs and kind of the future
proofing of industry.
I'm, kind of curious if there's anything kind of
you've talked about in your travels and even some of the slides you shared with me about like Anything different from the u.s's approach versus some of those other countries?
and Obviously some of that may be cultural and other reasons but just kind of any interesting trends or things that You've noticed between the u.s and others abroad around
that
I think to kind of draw something in common and obviously like if we were going into a more technical discussion, there's been different levers pulled depending on what type of
frankly economy or country you're in and don't want to go too far down that road necessarily.
But what I will say is that it's this idea of being invested in the EV transition and putting your foot forward and having policy certainty has served a lot of countries really
well.
Or even if you look at specific state markets in the US,
know, California and Colorado are two that see very high, you know, EV share of sale.
And they've had policy certainty and incentives at the state level and programs to address some of the issues we've discussed.
In Europe, you know, UK is pretty close to a sister market.
They've also had, you know, for a long time, they had purchase incentives.
They have, you know, ride hailing or taxi incentives as well.
And they have different challenges.
I mean, one benefit that we have here in the U.S.
that not every country with high EV adoption has is
We have the automakers here, whether you're talking about the legacy OEMs or the kind of newer EV companies, many of which are Zeta members.
That's something exciting to be a part of.
There are just some companies, excuse me, that maybe do it for an environmental reason or a policy goal.
But here, just as Germany is another example, it's a competitiveness conversation too, right?
Because anytime you're leaving a hole on a global kind of market,
someone may step in.
So it's a big opportunity for the US companies.
I think a lot of them have seen it in terms of upping their investment here in the US, but also thinking about their supply chains in North America.
Yeah.
And I think that's kind of really great to see.
just looking at the members of Zeta and kind of what they're interested in and what they kind of stand for.
It seems like a really interesting alignment around what that kind of future in state is and what obviously the industry is trying to get towards.
I'm curious about, and I mean, a lot of the people who are members of Zeta are
the battery manufacturers are the automotive, some of the automotive startups among others that you mentioned.
Some of the other ones are the utilities.
And I know a lot of what we've kind of talked about so far has been a little bit more on the automotive and the EV charging side, but I'm kind of curious around any of the data.
Cause just because that's such a fundamental piece, especially once you get, getting into like the large, not just DC fast charging, but even like fleet electrification.
application.
I'm just curious around that and what you're hearing and seeing from members in the space.
Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a better utility point in the slide deck I sent you.
And as a good research analyst, I always say, won't overstep what the data shows or what my experience shows.
But I think that many of Zeta's members and other utilities continue to make investments in EV charging and how they're approaching electrification in their specific region within
states.
And that's really important work or how EVs will.
in the future interact with the grid.
There's excitement and also challenges around that interaction outside of the data center and AI questions and all the other kind of challenges that utilities will deal with.
So of course, they're a really important part of the conversation here in New York.
I'm in Con Ed's jurisdiction, the investments that they're making to increase electrification or to prepare for an electric future.
So every utility varies and differs where they're at on this journey.
Obviously, California utilities, when your EV share of sale is 25%, you have a lot more EVs on the road.
It's a different experience than where EVs are just getting started.
so I think really important partners, really important to continue to engage and work with.
And it's exciting to have them as a part of the team here at Zeta as well, because they offer a unique perspective.
And also, when we were talking about certainty before, right?
their utilities have different planning cycles.
They have different programs.
have different regulators and different speed altogether.
So definitely an area that I personally need to kind of get up to speed more and continue learning about.
Even as like someone in research, you're always learning more and doing more.
But this transition is going to be successful in part because the utilities are there to kind of help ease it along over time.
As far as kind of what you're seeing in the data, what are the trends that have been kind of the most?
I don't know, just like the ones that you've been kind of most optimistic and kind of positive about as far as kind of like looking forward with the growth of the industry.
Yeah, this is honestly, it's almost like you, I'm not saying I gave you this question, Chase, but it's almost a nice tee up to see if one of my former BNEF colleagues listens to
this and makes it all the way to, you know, as far as we are in the conversation.
So BNEF, Bloomberg NEF puts out a battery price survey every year, which looks at the actual kind of prices of battery packs and more.
And
BNEF has been doing this for over a decade and tracks prices back to 2010.
So really a lot of this transition has been pushed forward by the idea that lithium ion battery prices have fallen around 90%.
I don't have the exact math off the top of my head at this moment, but from that price in 2020, $4, around $1,400 per kilowatt hour down to $115 per kilowatt hour.
And it is such a...
massive change in how affordable these batteries are that have begun to impact more of these affordable EVs existing, impact the existence of stationary storage in a major way
and can transform both our transportation economy, but also our power sector.
And there's no way that you can't look at that chart and then also all the kind of EV sales charts working kind of in tandem as the battery prices have come down, EV sales have
gone up.
and not feel good about the future.
BNEF continues to of forecast battery prices out and continuing to fall into a cheaper and more affordable range, which will be passed on to consumers.
So I think between that and seeing used EV sales begin to pick up, there's a lot of reasons to feel good.
think whenever I have conversations like this, Chase, I always try and be non-Pollyannish, not say that everything will be easy, transitions will take place overnight.
One set I always like to really use is that like in the early 1900s, like basically 1910 to 1930, as the internal combustion engine was picking up, there were many different types
of fueling used to power gas cars.
Kerosene, I think, was one.
And so it's not like ICE vehicles, you know, flipped a switch in a year, in five years, were dominating the world.
know, companies like Ford at the time made the innovation, like many companies in the EV space are doing today.
but it is a transition for a reason.
And I think it's an exciting one to be a part of, but just like any transition, there are bumps in the road.
I have so many stats I could throw.
I don't have it off the top of my head, but there was a good survey in like, I want to say the early 2000s around cell phone usage.
If people will like ever want smartphones or not.
And it was like 20 % or so people thought it'd be a thing.
And then, know, here we go.
We got the iPhones, you know, all in our.
all over the place.
So it's exciting.
And I think there's a lot of reasons to feel optimistic, but also highlights why groups like Zeta are really important because there are challenges to address and a lot of
uncertainty.
I'm having conversations with friends or industry, what they say, what's going to happen with tariffs, what's going to happen with Policy X or Policy Y.
And there's a lot of news developments every day.
so the big picture story has been really good.
And there is a lot more
work to do, but I think that kind of keeps you positive and keeps you kind of in the moment where, yeah, you might be getting a bunch of new stories in a single day and trying
to figure out what the heck is going on.
Yeah, I think that's actually an excellent call out because you wind the clock only a few years and really just kind of right before COVID.
One of the biggest things you always heard about electric vehicles is like, well, the batteries are so expensive, it'll never happen.
There's no way it'll ever get down to around 100 bucks per kilowatt hour and all these other things.
And those are just things that have kind of happened in the past few years.
And we've kind of taken for granted and forgotten how much pushback there used to be.
to that part of the conversation altogether.
We're approaching that kind of price parity.
I always used to say Bloomberg that price parity is in a moment.
It's kind of a spectrum over time because different segments reach price parity depending on your markets.
It could be at $125 per kilowatt hour, $100 per kilowatt hour, some even 90.
Haven't looked at the numbers at Bloomberg in a little bit.
So we'll throw stuff out there.
But if you look at most studies now in the US, again, putting kind of the short term challenges to the side.
we're seeing parity within the next couple of years and arguably many vehicles might be added today.
And so that is a transformative moment, but it can be lost in a lot of noise sometimes.
Yeah, and I mean, I always kind look back.
I mean, the big thing was always that $100 a kilowatt hour mark or even 150.
And it just seems like as we got closer and closer, people would either look for more reasons.
Well, well, actually, it's this, that and the other.
But the more you pulled it apart, the more you realize that that actually number wasn't taking into account so many of the other things that actually make an electric vehicle so
much more cost efficient that sure, maybe there's some of these upfront battery costs.
But they've continued to fall in.
I think you're totally right about specific industries.
Those impacts have been greater than others.
And a great one is, as you kind of mentioned, utility and grid storage power and how batteries have really taken off in that because there's so many other issues you run into
with when you have to have like a coal peaker plant that batteries don't have to be dirt cheap, that you're saving already a lot of money and you're already just starting to see
that safety and consistency with a lot of these battery grid tied systems.
Yeah, it's exciting to be around.
I always feel good when I'm talking to industry people.
feel like that is a, even though people are, think, I think there's frustrations around all the uncertainty for sure.
But I think people believe in the mission and believe in, you know, working in these kinds of growing fields.
And I think it keeps people motivated.
For sure.
I think there's just so much, I've always been kind of like a long-term person.
There's always short-term noise and all these things that kind of, if you pay attention just from that, it looks like the world's going to end tomorrow or something.
But then you, and I'm always also a person who doesn't like to look back at stuff, but if you just look back five to 10 years, you really do see just how far things have come.
And it's all stuff that makes you kind of optimistic to see where all of this is clearly going.
And when it, when it,
I'm sorry, we're gonna say something.
No, I mean, it's even that point that I brought up on the US where like alternative drive, drive trains, meaning Bevs, P-Hubs and hybrids were about 2 % of all sales in the US in
2015 and were, you know, over 19 % last year.
So even in the US, you know, change is coming and change has been occurring, which is exciting to see.
Yeah.
And I think that's a perfect example of what I kind of meant about looking.
There were so many people, especially the automotive industry though.
Well, it's only 2%.
What will it ever grow to?
And in such a short time, it's almost 10 X to that.
And that's where you kind of have to look at not just where it is or what it's been.
You have to look at that growth factor to all of it.
And one of the other areas I know that I've talked to some of the other members about at Zeta about before is the work you're also doing with kind of electric school buses.
Yeah.
In some of these kind of traditionally non passenger EV spaces that have really started to stand out
Yeah, I mean, and I think the electric school bus one is always a great example because you're having a public health benefit on top of, you know, just another segment on top of,
you know, pilots around electric school buses and the grid.
And, know, really important federal programs that have been, you know, in helping establish factories in places like West Virginia and elsewhere.
And it's exciting to see the technology grow.
mean,
there's about 500,000 school buses in the US, which is massive.
In my former life, I worked on buses a little bit as well, it's transit buses are around 70,000 electric school buses, 500,000.
It's a massive market opportunity with different challenges.
In a weird way, I almost think that like passenger EVs is consumer product plus renewable energy kind of spin on it.
With electric school buses, it does have more of that kind of fleet process.
But that means there's different challenges of like, how do you get school districts to be able to afford it and to kind of drivers to learn it in a different way.
And I think people are always really excited seeing them, which is a good feeling.
I mean, I think people are excited seeing passenger EVs too, but just the kind of visceral reaction to running into an electric school bus or going to an event with them is always
really fun.
Yeah, and think it just highlights when people are thinking about this in a way that it's like trying to say these universal truths are like, this won't work for that.
But then you start really breaking it down by industry or need around like when electric school bus needs versus what a consumer needs for day to day versus kind of what we're
talking about with you deal like utility scale grade.
They're serving.
They're kind of the same technology, but the way they do it and to what extent they serve does actually have some pretty
drastic and impactful differences for those different product lines and industries.
Yeah, and there are different places in the kind of development of the supply chain, right?
So it's building up economies of scale across the board has been shown as a positive move.
so, you know, buses and trucks, like commercial vehicles, like your your vans put out by, you know, Ford Rivian is moving along quite nicely.
Electric school buses, you know, still have a bit of a ways to go.
Just like in the passenger EV space, you really got two ways of doing it, right?
You could be an all electric startup or you can be an ice make, you know, traditional diesel school bus maker who kind of learns how to do electric.
Same with, you know, mail trucks and all of these different functions.
But I think there you even see the total cost of ownership benefit more so, right?
Where it's like these products are cheaper to run and to fuel.
And that's, that's without getting to the, you know, ancillary benefits of electrification.
Again, we're early on all this stuff.
so there's different companies being established who are trying, just like any kind of new industry, there's going to be success, there's going to be setbacks, but it shows that
really, you know, there's a lot of potential for electrification.
And let's just say, you know, cleaner technologies across the board, you know, aiming towards that kind of zero emission in our title, right?
To kind of...
hit up over the long term or those heavy duty trucks, all really challenging things, but exciting nonetheless.
And maybe we come back in five to 10 years and talk about electric aviation, but I think not necessarily today.
Well, I think that's a good tee up for the next conversation.
I mean, I'm super passionate about the aviation space and I think what's happening there is really cool, but that's like a perfect example.
It's like where we're seeing the scaling of consumer vehicles use cases, pretty clear.
There's a use case and path to electric aviation, but there's still some kind of technical.
I, when you see like the battery density and where the technology is going, it's likely it will get there.
But we're still a little further.
We're kind of where like the EV industry with that is maybe a decade, maybe a little more ago, which once again, that's so cool to think that we're seeing that continued growth.
But Corey, this has been a really fascinating conversation.
really enjoyed kind of talking about these different topics, but with kind of all the data and research we're seeing to kind of really show that there's so much to be positive
about.
And it's all growing pretty quickly and changing in a lot of different areas in a positive way.
But for
those who are curious and want to learn more, what's the best way to kind of follow you and kind of learn more about the work that you're doing at Zeta.
Yeah.
So first I'll plug the Zeta website.
You know, always good to keep tabs on what we're doing.
We have both kind of, you know, the advocacy work and then a lot of education work on things like, you know, cost of EVs or EV charging.
So, you know, zeta.org, gotta give the, you know, the team a shout out.
In terms of me, LinkedIn, Twitter, Blue Sky on all of it, you'll get some EV content.
You'll get a lot of basketball complaining about the Brooklyn Nets.
So.
Be careful what you sign up for.
it's, you know, got to be true to yourself, Chase.
You can't be business all the time.
usually after work hours, you'll see me complaining about the nets losing.
Although this year, winning or losing, this year I want them to be worse off so they get a better draft pick.
So if you want some real entertainment, follow me around the MBA draft, but also really follow Zeta's work around electrification and the kind of efforts on the EV supply chain.
Yeah, unfortunately, as a Portland Trailblazers fan, can too easily relate to where you're at in that experience as well.
But yes, thank you so much.
Well, I mean, that could be its own podcast.
We got to talk about that sometime too on the situation, the NBA.
But this has been really fascinating.
Looking forward to having you and other members from the Zeta team back on soon again.
It's always really interesting and great to hear what's happening.
So thank you so much, Corey.
Yeah, thank you so much for your time, Chase.
Hope you have a good rest of your day.
That's a wrap on this episode of grid connections.
A huge thank you to Corey Cantor from Zeta for joining us and bringing the data insight and optimism.
We need to keep pushing this transition forward.
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