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Evangelism site or Internet site for teenagers that I was involved in. That was, one of the real early interactive flash based websites for teens back in 1998. You know, working on early products like that or taking magazines with a long history, maybe a 100 year history, and bringing them online for the first time, or some of the books I've written. But creating something that didn't exist before or that wasn't available widely before and making it so that a lot more people had access to it in new and creative and different ways. That that's something that I think is, has really been something I've enjoyed the most in my career is seeing that happen.
Speaker 2:Well, there's there's so many directions I could go to. I I don't know where to start, but, okay, so you said you said teens. I wanna hear all about that project. Who are the teens? What was the challenge, so to speak, that they were facing, and what was the solution that you provided?
Speaker 1:So, the challenge was that especially back in the late nineties, teens were just coming online. Right? They were just getting access to the Internet, and they were starting to seek answers or look for help with felt needs. So whether it be loneliness or whether it be friendship or issues around drug abuse and and challenges they were facing in their life, where to how to find good relationships. And we were designing pathways for teens to explore, how they could get answers to those questions.
Speaker 1:And because I'm a person of faith, the website that we were developing was providing faith answers to those questions. But the idea was that, that a teenager with with any background could really benefit from engaging around these pathways we were building.
Speaker 2:The I mean, you said I said the nineties. Like, you are way ahead of your time in this work.
Speaker 1:You know, I think the the place where I saw some of the most interesting impact was back in the late nineties, especially around the world. Most young people interacted with the Internet via what was called a cyber cafe, which is not something we think about much anymore because everyone just has access on their phones, you know, 247 to the Internet. But back in that day, the only way a young person could access the Internet was to go to a special little coffee shop where they had computers and buy time. And so we would do events in cyber cafes, and what was so interesting and so much fun was to meet teenagers around the world. We would do these events all over the world and hear what their challenges were and interact with them and talk with them and and, essentially open up new opportunities to them by sharing, ways they could find information to really help them with the felt needs that they were dealing with at that moment.
Speaker 1:And so being in those cyber cafes and interacting with teenagers was was, I think, one of the really impactful things that I enjoyed doing as part of that early project.
Speaker 2:That god. That's incredible. So I I love the merge, so to speak, online and offline, bridging those two spaces. I I honestly, I don't think I can remember anybody sharing a story like that where they've done such an interesting combination. And this was in the nineties.
Speaker 2:Like, oh, my God. That's amazing. So okay. Let let me tell you a small story. Right?
Speaker 2:So I, before COVID hit and everything went to, you know, hit the fan, I did a program called, this is a rotary thing. Right? Because I'm a Rotarian. It's called Ryla Youth, Leadership Award. And there's a thing in Ryla that we call I can't remember the name right now, but, basically, it's this sharing session where everybody shares something that happened to them, and it kind of is like a bonding session.
Speaker 2:And more often than not, you you hear horrible stories, like, horrible things that have happened to these teenagers. And you wouldn't think that they went through that terrible experience if you're just interacting with them on a day to day basis. And, you know, it's impossible to finish that session, you know, not emotional and in tears more often than not. And at the end, we always, you know, say you're not alone. Right?
Speaker 2:And that's the key. I mean, just by saying those words, I have a goosebumps because it brings me back to those moments at Rotary. And, you know, the stories obviously, we maintain privacy, but the stories are across the board and terrible, terrible things. And and you can imagine. And the amount of times that we hear about sexual harassment and stuff like that is just horrific.
Speaker 2:And it's all, of of course, completely, completely private and confidential. You never have people who know each other in these sessions. So, basically, people leave and maintain that that, secrecy. Constantly, people go away from these sessions where they know they've been seen. They know they've been heard.
Speaker 2:They know that they're not alone because they've heard other people in that same session who've gone through these kind of terrible experiences, they they come away and they say to me later because very often, there's there's a relationship that's maintained. And these people went through Raila. They come back, and then they become the Raila, counselors the next year or the year after. So there's a maintained relationship. But often the words that are said is that this changed my life.
Speaker 2:So I I I I can't I can't, first of all, say how much I appreciate all the work you do, and this is just one example because this really has an impact. It really, really has an impact.
Speaker 1:Throughout my career is really to, help organizations that are doing very innovative and complicated things to make it clear and simple for people to engage with. Right? And that media organization, what they do is they helped set up local community radio in countries around the world. So they would help it was called planting a radio station. So setting up local community radio.
Speaker 1:And, it's very complicated with all the, you know, transmitters and antennas and technology and all the things required to make a radio station work. But what one of the things that I'll share with you that, really stuck with me, I was visiting one of those radio plants in Indonesia on a small island. That radio station, when they inaugurated, they launched it, people came from all over the island who could hear it to visit the the station. And, and they came and they they, yeah, talked to me about how having that onset, having local radio was impacting their lives. A lot of people I went to one village where they left the radio on all night.
Speaker 1:And when the radio came back on in the morning, that was their alarm clock. So they just left it on, and when the broadcaster started broadcasting at 5 or 6 in the morning, that's what woke them up in the morning to start up their day. But this radio station, the one thing I remember about it so we were helping make the radio station possible with the technology and the training, the on air training, all those things. But this radio station had a really unique model on this little island. They were doing, radio.
Speaker 1:They had an orphanage in the radio station, and the orphanage was then the part of the audience and part of the content of the radio, meaning they allowed the kids to go on the air and share stories and be part of what was going on on the on the radio as well. So you had this organization that was not only providing radio content and music to the local community, they were providing shelter for children in the community with no home, and then they were getting the kids involved in, being a part of the content that would go out to the community itself. And I thought that was just a great example where we're taking technology and how to do radio, which is something that in many parts of the world is very common everyday thing that everyone has. We're taking it to to a new setting that hasn't had it before, and we're watching them localize it in a way and make it an authentic and real help to the people in that community. And it was just really exciting to be able to be there and be part of seeing that radio station in action.
Speaker 2:I mean, I can just imagine those kids, right, telling their stories and have a whole the whole island hear them. I mean, just thinking about that, that's crazy. I mean, that must have empowered them in ways that that, honestly, I don't think I can even imagine. And then that combination you said it's a radio station, but, really, it was an orphanage. Right?
Speaker 2:You kinda buried the lead there that that did something amazing and combined technology. And, really, what they did is they created community. And I would argue that creating community is probably one of the most powerful forces for good anywhere. And you've been creating community forever. And in fact, let me argue something and tell me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2:Almost every single project that you are involved in creates community.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's an element of that because it's such a high personal value because, you know, so what what drives me is is helping people share what they know and take those ideas and innovate around them. Right? That's what drives me. And that can't happen outside of community.
Speaker 1:So you're absolutely right that that in in the different roles I've had, whether it's my current role with SIL where we're helping people flourish with the languages they value most. We're working with the world's 7,000 languages. Or going back to, you know, working with a radio organization or, different organizations with, digital transformation or research and development organizations in the nonprofit space. Each one of those, what we've always done around those is helped people come together to hear each other's stories, to riff off each other and develop their ideas, and then encourage each other as they pursue those ideas and develop them into the life changing solutions that they can become.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. I mean, I think that you have an angle here, which most tech companies just completely misunderstand or don't even understand. And it's all about how empowering communities, building communities through using tech, that's what creates real change, real power. It's not the tech that changes anything. It's how the tech empowers the community.
Speaker 2:And communities are built out of people, and people tell stories. And, you know, I would be remiss not to since, you know, name of this whole podcast is Story Samurai. I would be remiss not to capitalize on that point that this art of storytelling is is from the cave. Right? We were telling stories in the caves maybe before that even.
Speaker 2:And it's the way that we communicate culture. It's the way that we communicate values. It's the way that we connect. But you're saying something super interesting here. It's the way that we innovate.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. So so I think, you know, yourself and SIL tapping into this, I think, very old method of innovation through storytelling and empowered communities is absolutely incredible. I wanna, take a small shift and talk about the most challenging experience that you've ever had. So if you think through professional or personal history. Right.
Speaker 2:I'm opening it up right now. What was the most difficult moment that you had where for a second there you're like, I didn't think I could get through this, but you did.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The the most difficult thing I've done is, as a CEO to close down an organization proactively. It it was something that, that I, looking back at like you said, I don't know how other than my faith and my family and my friends and the, skills and abilities that that I've been able to build. I don't know how I could have done such thing because it was so challenging. But what happened was I was leading a nonprofit that was a niche research and development organization for the nonprofit space.
Speaker 1:So we did geospatial and qualitatively quantitative research for nonprofits. And, fundamentally, when when I was about 2 or 3 years into the organization, we made a major pivot to the funding model, the business model of the nonprofit, out of necessity. And a few years into that process, we realized that, we didn't have the resources to, make it go. And we we worked, on some acquisitions and mergers, and and we tried multiple things over over over 12 months. And it was just very clear that none of them were gonna be viable.
Speaker 1:And so I had to sit down with the board, and we had to say, is there a path to viability here, or should we close down this 30 plus year old organization? And me as a young CEO, having to wrestle with the fact that on my watch, that was gonna happen was really, really challenging. But I was so proud of my board. They came alongside me. They walked alongside me.
Speaker 1:We walked through the details, and we said, you know, the right thing is to close it. It it doesn't have a path forward. And so we then went on a journey of over 15 months of, selling certain assets, granting certain assets to other nonprofits, placing all of our staff at other organizations, and actually closing in the black. And we were able to close everything with paying everything off and closing in the black with everyone supported and helped onto their next role, so none of the staff were left in the. And at the end of that time, I just collapsed.
Speaker 1:I was just exhausted. It was such a challenging time. We even had a party. One of our founding organizations that had founded us called the port party and invited people from all over the world, either virtually or in person, to come and participate in celebrating the life of that organization?
Speaker 2:I I never know what to expect. I've never heard that story. So for the audience listening, I've never heard that specific story before from John. I I I I I have goosebumps. When I when I fired my first person, I didn't sleep for for for days before that.
Speaker 2:It was a relatively quick turnaround when we came to the conclusion, and I understood. And the CEO said you need to do this. We did it basically, few days later, but I didn't sleep. I was I was mortified that I had to do this, and I felt very comfortable. And then the second time, I, I was actually fired, and they told me my last task was to fire everybody else, basically.
Speaker 2:Only 2 employees were left in the company, and we didn't have a year to do stuff like you did. My my, you know, owners were not that kind. And basically, you know, they didn't give me any kind of support as opposed to, but I found each and every one of them the resources that they needed in order to find that next job. And, actually, that experience, that traumatic but also very positive experience of helping each and everyone find their job and help them with the PR and create meetings for them and networking, actually, that's what what founded this company in in many ways. So it's it's funny that you told that story.
Speaker 2:But I wanna I wanna drive back, and I wanna learn a little bit about what was happening in the moment. So describe to us the moment where you had to come to the team for the first time and tell them, look. This company is shutting down, and this is the plan.
Speaker 1:So, the good news was is that, there wasn't a moment like that because I've been involving the team in the whole process. So the whole team had been part of reimagining the organization, doing the various product market fit trials to figure out, do we have a path forward? And so when we got to the point of saying we have to close down, well, not everyone was necessarily on the same page, and we were all wrestling with our own, you know, levels of of grief and and wrestling with with the reality of that moment. Everyone knew the situation. And I think what what that did for us was, that gave us a similar footing on which to have that meeting to say, hey.
Speaker 1:We're not gonna be able to continue this. So, so I think that, it was a very different moment because it wasn't one moment. It was dozens and dozens of touch points of working with the team and making them part of the journey so that we own the end result.
Speaker 2:I I have to call out something that is, I think, nontrivial. You know, when when I had to fire my whole team, actually, the executive staff hid the financial information from us months in advance, so we didn't know what was happening. But you chose a completely different strategy. You were being inclusive in sharing information. That is that is incredible.
Speaker 2:So so you believed in your team not only that they can handle it, but they will help to bring the organization one way or another to the best possible outcome. Was there at any moment that you were struggling with, well, should we just hide this information from everyone and and continue as if business, you know, BAU business is normal? Or was it clear to you from the get go that this is the right thing to do?
Speaker 1:No. I think I think it was clear that transparency was the right approach. I think the the the bigger struggle wasn't so much the transparency issue. The bigger struggle was really, how do I keep, my teams focused on delivering value and not having to live in the moment of of what's the future of our organization. Right?
Speaker 1:You know? So it was more it was not so much a struggle of should I include them or not? We we we did that very early and and and ongoing. The struggle was more how how do I how do I separate out, process of of allowing my team to really focus on doing what they do best, from the from the, daily pivoting we were having to do maybe at the organizational level, so that we involve them at the moments when it was when they could really add value there and be part of something that was significant to them rather than every little permutation. So I think that was probably the bigger struggle was was how to do that well.
Speaker 2:I I think that's incredibly insightful because I think that's what scares executives. They don't know how to keep the team operational while the pivot, the change, the restructuring is happening. So their decision is let's keep everybody in the dark except for the senior executives. So it sounds to me like you took onto yourself to explore something that most people don't know how to do, and you took that leap of faith, so to speak, and you took that risk. And, you know, I don't think that the measure of success is whether the organization closed or not.
Speaker 2:I think the measure of success is how the team responded. And it sounds like the response was positive, but tell me more about this. So throughout these multiple touch points, the team is learning more and more. They're being involved in these small decision points along the way, many and many of them. Describe one of those interactions to me.
Speaker 2:What does it look like? Maybe the most challenging or or most or or least challenging one, most happy one, or maybe the party at the end. That must have been incredibly emotional.
Speaker 1:So I'll say that, that definitely this was I don't wanna paint a rosy picture in the sense that you can just imagine all of the emotions that a whole team of people would be going through, especially if some of the staff had been with this organization for 20 or 30 years. So they they had been there since the beginning. And so some of you know, you can imagine all the emotions that our staff was going through of of wrestling with, you know, is there another way? And and and does this have to be this way? And and could we do this?
Speaker 1:And should we try this? And so I I won't paint a rosy picture at all in the sense that there was lots of wrestling and and there were some disagreements and then there was some agreement and there was all kinds of those dynamics. What I'll say, though, about it is that, is that I think what made it different than some of those scenarios that you might have heard about in the news or some of those things is that I think the group that was there wasn't there for themselves. You know? And and, you know, this is a nonprofit.
Speaker 1:They they came to be involved in a mission, which is which is helping people steward knowledge to make decisions that make a difference to the world. Right? And so, even though, there were lots of challenges and disagreements and struggling and and wrestling with how to come to the final conclusion of closing, this organization down, It was also a sense that we're here for a bigger purpose, and that fundamentally changes the equation for how people wrestle. Right? And so when it came to that party at the end, what the party was about was people saying, even though this has to come to an end, here were all the outcomes that were accomplished in that mission of stewarding knowledge to help people make decisions that have an impact in the world.
Speaker 1:And what we heard were all the stories of the impact that had happened to this organization over the years because of that data that they had stewarded, whether through research projects or mapping projects or whatever it might have been. And so, so that's what maybe made the difference, even though it was tremendously challenging to walk through that process.
Speaker 2:I I I, honestly, I'm I'm I'm speechless. That is I I I almost feel like I'm there with you, and I I'm I'm just feeling goosebumps throughout this whole whole discussion that we've had. It's it's crazy. I'm gonna have to cut this because I I don't know what to say. How how do you move forward after that?
Speaker 2:Like, it's such an emotional thing that happens. What what's the next step? I mean, you've had the party. It's shut down, basically. You've done everything that you can.
Speaker 2:Do you just start looking for your next job?
Speaker 1:Well, I think I got some real wise counsel. One of the things that I really appreciated was, that I had senior leaders come around me, whether they be board members or simply other CEOs and and give me some really wise counsel. I had some really great, job counseling, But also counseling around saying, hey. You need to take a sabbatical. You need to let yourself process what you've just been through as a leader.
Speaker 1:And don't make any quick decisions. Right? Don't don't decide in exhaustion to take another job. And so what I did was I actually I so I took a short sabbatical where I didn't do any work activity at all. I I did nothing related to my career at all.
Speaker 1:And then when I came back in, I didn't come back in with a next job. Instead, I I had several organizations ask me to do contract work for about 8 or 9 months, and I did contract work where I simply explored other avenues of work. And I found that super helpful because what it allowed me to do was to dive into something that could be really helpful and productive for someone, and it was rewarding for me, but it wasn't a big decision yet. And that then allowed me to essentially take time and space. And so what I did in that time while I was doing that contract work was I interviewed dozens and dozens of CEOs, and I asked them 2 questions.
Speaker 1:Said, what is your greatest challenge right now, and what is your greatest opportunity? And I used all of that input and that brainstorming and thinking to help craft then what my next pathway would be forward.
Speaker 2:That is absolutely amazing, and that's so applicable to, you know, the next generation, our young generation that are now looking to find their opportunity. And one of my my customers, she she's amazing, but she doesn't know what she wants to do. What would you advise her?
Speaker 1:So I think the the world is changing very, very rapidly, especially with the, introduction of generative AI and how it's impacting pretty much every industry and sector. And so I I think, the question that I have been challenging people to think about is, what is my greatest human contribution? So don't look at what production needs to be done. Mhmm. Because production is gonna change for that.
Speaker 1:Don't look at what people are hiring for today because that is gonna change dramatically. You need to say, as a human, what is my greatest contribution? And then you say, where is that contribution most going to be needed? As AI and other things, geopolitical things and everything else, a change and morph around me? Where is that contribution really going to be needed?
Speaker 1:And begin to skate to that puck Right. Rather than the other way around.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's that's amazing. I I I don't think we can continue continue after that. That's this is, like, the high that we need to finish with, John. John, like, we we have to have you back.
Speaker 2:This is so amazing. I feel like I have learned so much from you every time we speak, and and notwithstanding this time, again, I I feel so blessed to to to know you and to be able to support you and to have your support. So let me let me just very sincerely and I've been, like, taking so many notes. That's why I've been looking down. But let me, I may have even made the table rock because I've been writing so fast.
Speaker 2:I apologize for that. But, let me just say thank you from bottom of my heart for for the relationship that we have. I appreciate you greatly. We have to have you come back because this is wonderful. And, I wanna do one last thing.
Speaker 2:I think it's wonderful what you said about having people identify what is the lasting change that they wanna create in the world. And these are my words, not yours. And then skate to that puck. How do you do that? What's the what's the thing?
Speaker 2:What's the process? What's the question you need to ask yourself? Because that's incredibly complicated. We're torn between this need to make money and have vacations and support our family and have health care and then do the things that we love. How do we find that Japanese overlap, right, between the things we're good at, the things we love, and the things that are needed?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It it is really challenging to to find greater purpose, in a world that is is commodifying so much about our so much about us. Right? So I think, you know, I I I look to a few sources for that. I, as a person of faith, faith is a big part of finding purpose.
Speaker 1:And then I think you also look at your skills, your makeup, how you're designed. You are designed in ways that allow you to bring really specific value to them. Then I look at your experiences. What are the sum of all the things you've experienced in your life that bring your unique contribution? And then you look at your relationships.
Speaker 1:You say, who are the people I know and the connections and the networks, and how do those things tie into those other things? And and you overlay those, those circles into a Venn diagram. And at the center of all that is your really great human contribution that you can make.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Amazing. I I I want you to talk to one of our our community members because I think she needs hear what you have to send. I'll send her this recording. But if you're amicable, I'd like her to talk to you.
Speaker 2:John, again, I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. We will if you're okay with it, we will definitely have you back if you will will agree. This has been amazing, and let me just say sincerely, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for letting me be a part, and I appreciate our friendship as well, Larry.