WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.620 Track 1: Get my sexy radio voice on. 00:00:02.765 --> 00:00:03.600 Ah, no, I'm 00:00:03.750 --> 00:00:04.635 Quobix: Radio dj. 00:00:05.010 --> 00:00:06.540 Track 1: that was a bad joke and everyone's upset. 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:09.370 Hello everybody. 00:00:09.370 --> 00:00:11.560 Welcome to another episode of APIs. 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:13.510 You won't hate the podcast version. 00:00:13.740 --> 00:00:16.740 And yeah, I'm excited once again. 00:00:16.770 --> 00:00:17.730 I'm running the show. 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:21.030 No, Mike to help me out, so bear with us. 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:22.200 I think it's recording. 00:00:22.350 --> 00:00:23.370 I guess you'll find out. 00:00:23.370 --> 00:00:30.160 I, today I am joined by David Shanley who you may have heard all over the place. 00:00:30.340 --> 00:00:31.180 He's popping up. 00:00:31.255 --> 00:00:33.730 I, I was talking to him at API days. 00:00:34.255 --> 00:00:38.425 In Paris recently and he's made a whole bunch of really cool tools. 00:00:38.425 --> 00:00:41.430 So David, do you wanna tell everyone a bit about yourself? 00:00:42.890 --> 00:00:44.030 Quobix: Thank you for having me, Phil. 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:45.815 Yeah, so my name is Dave Shanley. 00:00:46.215 --> 00:00:47.325 I go by the name of Quos. 00:00:47.735 --> 00:00:49.930 You know, but, you know that's just, you know, a stupid internet thing. 00:00:49.930 --> 00:00:51.970 But anyway Dave, Dave Shanley. 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:52.409 I, 00:00:52.424 --> 00:00:53.385 Track 1: I, I called you David. 00:00:53.385 --> 00:00:53.684 Sorry. 00:00:53.689 --> 00:00:57.314 I, I, I go, I, I'm, I'm posh Now I go too formal. 00:00:57.404 --> 00:00:58.154 That's upsetting. 00:00:58.664 --> 00:00:59.080 Just Dave, 00:00:59.654 --> 00:01:01.874 Quobix: No problem, no problem at all. 00:01:02.214 --> 00:01:07.170 So I'm the founder of Princess Beef Heavy Industries or PB three, three F. 00:01:07.270 --> 00:01:10.420 You know, it's, it's, it's, it's shorter to write, but it's just longer 00:01:10.425 --> 00:01:12.310 to say in all, in all of all forms. 00:01:12.880 --> 00:01:13.210 Track 1: What is that? 00:01:13.210 --> 00:01:13.690 name about? 00:01:13.690 --> 00:01:16.420 Tell us some more about that before you get back to the intro. 00:01:16.435 --> 00:01:18.685 Quobix: Yeah, so actually I was, I was thinking of, you know, what do 00:01:18.685 --> 00:01:22.315 I call, what do I call, what would I call myself or would I call my company? 00:01:22.675 --> 00:01:25.595 And it was actually my 2-year-old daughter, which she was two at the time. 00:01:25.715 --> 00:01:27.365 And she came up, she used to watch this show. 00:01:27.365 --> 00:01:30.520 It was blaze in the Monster Machines, which is a show about monster trucks. 00:01:31.059 --> 00:01:33.605 And she said, I wanna watch Princess Beef. 00:01:33.665 --> 00:01:33.964 I'm like. 00:01:34.385 --> 00:01:35.705 What Princess? 00:01:36.064 --> 00:01:40.235 Princess Beef, there's no mentions of princesses or beef or 00:01:40.235 --> 00:01:41.434 anything like that in the show. 00:01:41.434 --> 00:01:42.784 She just called it Princess Beef. 00:01:42.784 --> 00:01:46.254 So then, you know, actually it was a little while longer, she said she was 00:01:46.259 --> 00:01:49.224 playing the drums, like toy drums and she called them the honey drums and 00:01:49.224 --> 00:01:51.594 I put the two together and thought Princess Beef and the honey drums. 00:01:52.314 --> 00:01:54.054 Isn't that a great name for a band? 00:01:54.804 --> 00:01:55.674 If I was younger? 00:01:55.734 --> 00:01:55.794 You 00:01:55.794 --> 00:01:58.044 know, I thought, I thought, yeah, may maybe, maybe. 00:01:58.044 --> 00:02:00.114 But then I thought, you know, it's bit too much for company 00:02:00.114 --> 00:02:01.974 name, but Princess beef and then. 00:02:02.664 --> 00:02:05.184 I looked it up and there's already a company called Princess Beef. 00:02:05.544 --> 00:02:08.154 They're a ranch in Colorado, I think. 00:02:08.184 --> 00:02:09.654 And they, they, they raise cattle. 00:02:10.074 --> 00:02:12.834 So I thought, well, okay, well how do I differentiate it? 00:02:13.134 --> 00:02:16.464 And I was thinking back to, you know, my, my, my nineties roots 00:02:16.565 --> 00:02:20.615 and there was a wonderful company called Loft Heavy Industries, or. 00:02:20.895 --> 00:02:23.835 10 PHT depends on how you, you would say the acronym. 00:02:24.105 --> 00:02:27.375 It was a hacker think group hack, hacker tank think tank type thing. 00:02:27.865 --> 00:02:29.815 And I just love that heavy industries element. 00:02:29.815 --> 00:02:33.805 And there was like a bunch of skater companies that had heavy industries on 00:02:33.805 --> 00:02:35.245 there, you know, postpay it to the name. 00:02:35.605 --> 00:02:36.355 I thought, why not? 00:02:36.385 --> 00:02:39.205 Let's, let's go right back to the nineties and re, you know, 00:02:39.445 --> 00:02:41.035 relive all of this, this joy. 00:02:41.040 --> 00:02:42.895 Anyway, so that's the, that's the reason why it's called that. 00:02:42.895 --> 00:02:44.965 No, nothing else other than I just, I love 00:02:45.095 --> 00:02:45.690 Track 1: software. 00:02:45.720 --> 00:02:46.650 I like the approach. 00:02:47.010 --> 00:02:50.400 I'm, I'm, I'm apparently trying to do like the punk version of the Woodland Trust, so 00:02:50.405 --> 00:02:52.140 I like the, the punk version of software. 00:02:52.200 --> 00:02:52.950 Let's, let's do it. 00:02:53.190 --> 00:02:54.090 Keep it interesting. 00:02:54.640 --> 00:02:55.235 Alright, brilliant. 00:02:55.235 --> 00:02:58.265 So I interrupted you, but you were telling us about a bit more about 00:02:58.265 --> 00:02:59.435 what yourself and what you get up to. 00:03:00.620 --> 00:03:01.070 Quobix: Yes. 00:03:01.100 --> 00:03:02.780 So I'm the f founder of Princess Beef. 00:03:02.830 --> 00:03:05.645 I'm also, you know, that's, that's what I do by, by night. 00:03:05.915 --> 00:03:08.765 But I also have a full-time job as a distinguished engineer 00:03:08.765 --> 00:03:10.115 at a company called Splunk. 00:03:10.635 --> 00:03:12.435 If you haven't heard of it, it's it's like we do. 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:13.559 Big data. 00:03:13.619 --> 00:03:17.460 We collect all the logs, all the information, put it into our big index 00:03:17.460 --> 00:03:19.530 and allows you to make sense of it. 00:03:19.530 --> 00:03:22.319 And we build premium applications on top of that platform. 00:03:22.499 --> 00:03:23.999 So yeah, that's what I do during the day 00:03:23.999 --> 00:03:24.179 and 00:03:24.275 --> 00:03:25.260 Track 1: have heard of them. 00:03:26.234 --> 00:03:28.304 The, that's, it's like a pretty big deal, right? 00:03:28.905 --> 00:03:31.035 It's like a pretty big company or how many? 00:03:31.035 --> 00:03:31.364 A few are 00:03:31.440 --> 00:03:33.900 Quobix: Yeah, it's, but there's, there's, there's about 8,000 people 00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:35.790 in the company, maybe 9,000 now. 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:36.530 It's pretty large. 00:03:36.530 --> 00:03:41.000 It's actually just been bought, acquired, well, it hasn't closed yet, but Cisco has 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:43.310 just purchased it for 27 billion, which 00:03:43.475 --> 00:03:44.075 Track 1: Good lord. 00:03:44.090 --> 00:03:44.630 Quobix: largest. 00:03:44.630 --> 00:03:46.250 Yeah, it's a larger, large amount of money. 00:03:46.660 --> 00:03:48.580 So yeah, we'll see what hap what happens with that. 00:03:48.580 --> 00:03:48.790 But 00:03:48.910 --> 00:03:49.899 Track 1: much of that do you get? 00:03:51.235 --> 00:03:53.904 Quobix: 0.0001% 00:03:54.485 --> 00:03:57.905 Track 1: But yeah, there, there was a number at the end 00:03:57.905 --> 00:03:58.745 of all those zeroes though. 00:03:58.745 --> 00:03:59.795 So there is something, there is 00:03:59.855 --> 00:04:01.475 Quobix: There is some, there is definitely something. 00:04:01.555 --> 00:04:04.675 But yeah, definitely not what the CEO is gonna be walking away with for sure. 00:04:05.245 --> 00:04:05.485 Track 1: now. 00:04:05.485 --> 00:04:05.965 Fair. 00:04:06.025 --> 00:04:08.665 Alright, well that's, that's, that's news. 00:04:08.695 --> 00:04:10.345 It's not, it's not bad news, it's news. 00:04:10.805 --> 00:04:11.615 Fantastic. 00:04:12.094 --> 00:04:17.255 And so on the side you are working on a bunch of really cool stuff and so. 00:04:18.380 --> 00:04:20.240 I, we, we spoke a bit. 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:23.840 You've been helping out with open API tools, the website that lists, guess what? 00:04:23.840 --> 00:04:24.979 A bunch of open API I tools. 00:04:24.979 --> 00:04:26.150 I dunno why I expanded on that. 00:04:26.150 --> 00:04:27.200 It's in the name. 00:04:27.229 --> 00:04:28.250 It does what it says on the tin. 00:04:28.590 --> 00:04:30.900 But we'd been a little bit snowed under and you were helping with some 00:04:30.905 --> 00:04:32.579 pull requests and I appreciated that. 00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:37.119 And then, yeah, I got to see you give a talk at API days in Paris. 00:04:37.269 --> 00:04:39.069 I went over there, was running about. 00:04:39.224 --> 00:04:40.184 Who needs some work? 00:04:40.184 --> 00:04:41.054 Do you need some work? 00:04:41.054 --> 00:04:42.014 Can I write for you? 00:04:42.314 --> 00:04:43.094 Oh God. 00:04:43.094 --> 00:04:43.394 Work. 00:04:43.394 --> 00:04:47.384 You know, work, work work is hard when you don't have a regular, regular job. 00:04:47.414 --> 00:04:48.164 I just have to go and 00:04:48.264 --> 00:04:48.984 Quobix: It is, yeah. 00:04:48.984 --> 00:04:51.384 You know, trying and lots of talking to people 00:04:51.744 --> 00:04:54.534 Track 1: Yeah, it was the first time I've actually had to do networking, right? 00:04:54.534 --> 00:04:57.054 Like, normally I just turn up at a conference and I'm like, the company 00:04:57.054 --> 00:04:58.704 I'm working for paid me to be here. 00:04:58.704 --> 00:04:59.454 Here's my talk. 00:04:59.454 --> 00:05:00.894 I'll be at the pub from here on out. 00:05:01.074 --> 00:05:03.714 But this time it was very much like I actually need to go to every 00:05:03.714 --> 00:05:06.174 booth and shake every hand and talk to everyone and see if anyone 00:05:06.294 --> 00:05:08.574 has any paid work for me anyway. 00:05:08.624 --> 00:05:12.554 Seeing your talk was, was a, a nice refreshing break from a lot of, 00:05:12.554 --> 00:05:15.714 like, AI will save the world and, if you don't need to build an API, 00:05:15.924 --> 00:05:18.624 you don't need to build an API Ever 'cause you can just get AI to do it. 00:05:18.624 --> 00:05:21.504 Although you have to write a specific API for the AI to work. 00:05:21.584 --> 00:05:23.114 Just a lot of very silly talk. 00:05:24.419 --> 00:05:25.349 Brilliant talk. 00:05:25.499 --> 00:05:27.029 We won't, we won't get onto that tangent. 00:05:27.239 --> 00:05:27.869 Good talk from you. 00:05:28.049 --> 00:05:33.099 You were, it, it was, I really enjoyed the talk considering you spent the a 00:05:33.099 --> 00:05:36.069 good half of the talk, making fun of spectral a tool that I helped to build. 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:39.549 So I did what any rational human being would do and we all, we went to the 00:05:39.554 --> 00:05:41.139 pub and shot the shit and it was great. 00:05:41.549 --> 00:05:48.209 You built, you built vacuum, which is kind of like a go equivalent of, of spectral. 00:05:48.209 --> 00:05:50.399 And to save me butcher in the introduction, like, tell me, 00:05:50.429 --> 00:05:52.229 tell, tell our listeners a little bit more about vacuum. 00:05:52.944 --> 00:05:57.364 Quobix: Yeah, so, so it's, it's it's inspired by spectral it's, it's it's 00:05:57.364 --> 00:06:01.654 based on the same concept, so it's compatible with spectral rules and 00:06:01.654 --> 00:06:03.334 core functions and things like that. 00:06:03.334 --> 00:06:03.574 So you. 00:06:03.964 --> 00:06:07.744 In theory, you should be able to take a spectral rule set, plug it into vacuum, 00:06:07.744 --> 00:06:09.454 and it'll give you the same results. 00:06:09.454 --> 00:06:12.004 There's, there's, there's different logic and it, it's, it's built differently. 00:06:12.004 --> 00:06:12.604 Completely different. 00:06:12.604 --> 00:06:17.434 It's different architecture, but the reason why it exists and now 00:06:17.434 --> 00:06:20.644 understand I was making fun of some of the speed was, was, was because 00:06:20.649 --> 00:06:21.869 of the, was because of the speed. 00:06:22.714 --> 00:06:25.594 So I'll take, I take you back to the, the kind of origins of it. 00:06:25.944 --> 00:06:29.239 It was around like 2019 when I was working at a company called VMware. 00:06:29.949 --> 00:06:30.849 It doesn't exist anymore. 00:06:30.909 --> 00:06:32.589 It's been bought by Broadcom. 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:37.099 But yeah, but the, the, the, the big thing there was, you know, there 00:06:37.104 --> 00:06:40.699 was a huge, there's thousands and thousands of open API specs, and 00:06:40.789 --> 00:06:43.879 there was, some were generated, some were handwritten, some were rubbish, 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:45.199 some were just, didn't even work. 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:46.279 But these were all being just. 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:51.049 Pushed out as documentation to customers, and they were just rubbish. 00:06:51.049 --> 00:06:51.739 They were just terrible. 00:06:51.739 --> 00:06:53.149 They didn't work in co generators. 00:06:53.149 --> 00:06:55.249 They, the, the documentation was awful. 00:06:55.249 --> 00:06:56.239 It, it just didn't load. 00:06:56.659 --> 00:06:58.819 It was, there was no SEO, you couldn't discover it. 00:06:58.819 --> 00:07:01.069 All, all kinds of problems anyway. 00:07:01.179 --> 00:07:05.079 So I got tasked with this problems like, can you start figuring this out? 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:06.369 Can you start figuring this mess out? 00:07:06.699 --> 00:07:10.539 And the first thing I did was, okay, let's go and grab some tools from the internet. 00:07:10.544 --> 00:07:13.959 So I started grabbing documentation tools and linting grab spectral 00:07:14.259 --> 00:07:18.729 started running it, and it was doing fine for the smaller specs, you 00:07:18.729 --> 00:07:20.229 know, the smaller SaaS services. 00:07:20.589 --> 00:07:23.319 But when I fed in, there's a product of VMware called vSphere. 00:07:24.189 --> 00:07:29.889 This thing was built in 2006, and it has. 00:07:30.514 --> 00:07:31.564 10,000. 00:07:31.624 --> 00:07:36.304 20,000 a Ps, an ungodly amount of APIs, and all these models were object oriented, 00:07:36.994 --> 00:07:40.084 fed some of those specs in, and they were like 70, 80 megabytes a piece. 00:07:41.599 --> 00:07:43.249 spect, which did give us a response back. 00:07:43.249 --> 00:07:44.629 It just, it just never came back. 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:46.639 It went off, never came back. 00:07:47.239 --> 00:07:48.739 It was like, okay, what do we do about that? 00:07:48.949 --> 00:07:52.999 So started, we actually tried to build a tool internally to replicate spectral, 00:07:52.999 --> 00:07:55.009 and failed absolutely miserably. 00:07:55.069 --> 00:07:55.579 We failed. 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:58.399 Couldn't do it just because spectral was, it's so complicated. 00:07:58.429 --> 00:07:58.999 Did such a good 00:07:58.999 --> 00:08:00.169 job and it was, you know, 00:08:00.229 --> 00:08:01.849 Track 1: does a lot of different things as well. 00:08:01.939 --> 00:08:05.509 Like the way, so one thing that people always kind of forget about with linter 00:08:05.509 --> 00:08:09.229 is like when you've got a code-based linter, you can usually look at that 00:08:09.234 --> 00:08:12.739 file to find out if that syntax is correct, or you can, you can kind of use 00:08:12.739 --> 00:08:15.199 reflection APIs in PP to use the PHP term. 00:08:15.409 --> 00:08:16.219 You can look at the reflection. 00:08:16.219 --> 00:08:16.759 API. 00:08:16.779 --> 00:08:20.769 To load it up and be like, does the name of this function look right to you? 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.899 But it, but you, you know what line that that file is on or that function is on 00:08:24.904 --> 00:08:27.989 and you, and it's, it's a lot easier to, to work with individual files, 00:08:27.989 --> 00:08:31.729 which is therefore quicker than it, than with open API because you have to. 00:08:32.104 --> 00:08:36.124 Build all of the structure into memory, like you have to follow every single 00:08:36.124 --> 00:08:37.714 ref of which there might be thousands. 00:08:37.894 --> 00:08:41.254 And then build kind of like a, an actual map, a fully referenced map 00:08:41.284 --> 00:08:42.694 of that, which gets quite chunky. 00:08:42.944 --> 00:08:45.614 And then you have to like find out if something is a problem 00:08:45.614 --> 00:08:47.324 in every single location. 00:08:47.324 --> 00:08:48.494 What it is used like the. 00:08:48.604 --> 00:08:52.684 The issue might not be in the file you are looking at, it's when that file is, is 00:08:52.684 --> 00:08:55.204 reved into a place and now it's a problem. 00:08:55.204 --> 00:08:57.574 And then, and then a lot of tools have done that. 00:08:57.574 --> 00:09:00.244 Like Specky, the thing that kind of inspired Spectral did that, 00:09:00.484 --> 00:09:03.124 but then it couldn't tell you which file the problem was in. 00:09:03.304 --> 00:09:06.514 So you have to kind of go up and down into these different formats and like 00:09:06.604 --> 00:09:10.744 map everything to a different place and it's bloody confusing to do so. 00:09:10.794 --> 00:09:13.614 I can only imagine, like I've, I've played with the Spectral Source code quite a lot. 00:09:13.614 --> 00:09:16.714 I didn't write it, but I was like the product manager there for a while. 00:09:16.714 --> 00:09:19.814 And yeah, every time I look in there, I just go, Hmm, 00:09:19.874 --> 00:09:20.924 someone else can work on that. 00:09:20.924 --> 00:09:22.754 I'm not gonna, I'm not, not gonna even try. 00:09:24.724 --> 00:09:29.644 Quobix: It, you know, the, so and I discovered that when, after, long story 00:09:29.644 --> 00:09:33.634 short we were trying to run spectral with some of this tooling, couldn't get it to 00:09:33.634 --> 00:09:34.894 run at the speed that we needed it to. 00:09:34.894 --> 00:09:36.454 So I said, look, let's, let's rebuild it. 00:09:36.454 --> 00:09:37.444 And VMware said no. 00:09:37.924 --> 00:09:40.654 And as I got all these other tools that we built, said, let's open source them. 00:09:40.659 --> 00:09:42.214 And they're like, no, we're not gonna do any of that. 00:09:42.214 --> 00:09:45.604 So I was like, okay, I want to, I want to give back to the community. 00:09:45.604 --> 00:09:46.624 I want to work on this stuff. 00:09:46.624 --> 00:09:47.464 I want to build this link. 00:09:48.319 --> 00:09:50.059 You won't, you don't wanna do it. 00:09:50.269 --> 00:09:52.339 I don't have a future here if you don't wanna work on it. 00:09:52.339 --> 00:09:52.789 So I'm out. 00:09:52.789 --> 00:09:56.299 So when I, and I basically quit VMware and started building it from scratch, so. 00:09:56.674 --> 00:10:00.064 Th going through that process of day zero, blank slate. 00:10:00.154 --> 00:10:02.224 Okay, I'm gonna build my own version. 00:10:02.254 --> 00:10:06.184 I'm gonna take spectral as a template or as a, as a, as an inspiration. 00:10:06.184 --> 00:10:08.824 Look at the source code and then reimagine that and go. 00:10:09.274 --> 00:10:12.714 And I spent two months rewriting that. 00:10:12.974 --> 00:10:15.944 Reference, look up, trying to figure that out. 00:10:16.544 --> 00:10:20.744 Recursive logic, months, months of scratch scratching my head 00:10:20.744 --> 00:10:22.274 and I failed multiple times. 00:10:22.274 --> 00:10:24.434 I couldn't get it to work and I couldn't get it to work fast. 00:10:24.944 --> 00:10:27.404 So trying to make that work, you know, the work that was done 00:10:27.404 --> 00:10:29.024 on Spectra was, was phenomenal. 00:10:29.504 --> 00:10:32.804 It to be months and months just to wrap my head around how to get the logic together. 00:10:33.204 --> 00:10:35.994 Eventually I pulled it, pulled it, pulled it together, but I was having like. 00:10:36.739 --> 00:10:37.699 Recursive dreams. 00:10:37.699 --> 00:10:40.909 Like I was waking up, you know, in the same like loop in my head, like trying 00:10:40.909 --> 00:10:45.929 to program my way through a dream, you know, in this recursive stepping in way. 00:10:45.929 --> 00:10:49.139 Anyway, it was driving me nuts, but yeah, got there in the end and, and 00:10:49.144 --> 00:10:53.669 the whole purpose was to, I want to be able to generate a spectral report 00:10:53.909 --> 00:10:55.969 or a report but I want it to run. 00:10:56.479 --> 00:11:01.009 Fast and I need a, a language that's more suited to do this type of stuff. 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:05.389 You know, ideally it would've been in Rust or done it in c plus plus or something, 00:11:05.389 --> 00:11:08.359 but you know, I was familiar with Go Loved Go, been using it for years and 00:11:08.364 --> 00:11:10.699 it's almost as fast, you know, you know, 00:11:10.699 --> 00:11:13.969 it's not as, not as fast, but yeah, almost as fast. 00:11:14.269 --> 00:11:15.529 So it would, it would do the job. 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:19.219 Plus there's a, there's a pretty large community for Go, so yeah, it's 00:11:19.219 --> 00:11:23.809 spent like four months, five months building it, you know, just every day. 00:11:24.144 --> 00:11:24.954 Chop away. 00:11:25.044 --> 00:11:25.674 Chop away. 00:11:25.704 --> 00:11:26.304 Chop away. 00:11:26.634 --> 00:11:27.264 Threw it away. 00:11:27.264 --> 00:11:28.014 Start again. 00:11:28.044 --> 00:11:28.704 Start again. 00:11:29.034 --> 00:11:31.744 Eventually I got a design that actually worked and worked well 00:11:31.744 --> 00:11:35.614 and was something I could then add onto to and scale up and open. 00:11:35.614 --> 00:11:38.464 Sourced it and said, you know, what do you think? 00:11:39.124 --> 00:11:39.274 No. 00:11:39.604 --> 00:11:41.254 First few months there was zero. 00:11:41.254 --> 00:11:42.814 It was like, no, it was cricket, but yeah. 00:11:42.814 --> 00:11:43.489 Started to take off. 00:11:44.534 --> 00:11:45.074 Track 1: that's wild. 00:11:45.074 --> 00:11:45.524 I mean, yeah. 00:11:45.524 --> 00:11:50.604 The, the entire API linting when was vacuum released a year or two ago, 00:11:51.294 --> 00:11:54.404 Quobix: Yeah, it was 2022, like April or May, 00:11:54.734 --> 00:11:55.424 Track 1: Yeah, I gotcha. 00:11:55.544 --> 00:11:59.354 So that's, that's like linting is a thing now by 2022, right? 00:11:59.359 --> 00:12:03.094 Like that, that's it still kind of early days, but in it is been the 00:12:03.094 --> 00:12:05.704 last year or two where it's really taken off all of the tooling vendors. 00:12:06.089 --> 00:12:07.019 Are working on it. 00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:10.709 They've either, you know, they've either baked, spectral in under the hood like 00:12:10.709 --> 00:12:15.729 Postman did, or e even SmartBear have kind of replaced their, their own kind 00:12:15.729 --> 00:12:19.524 of mostly red checks or whatever based linting with spectral under the hood. 00:12:19.529 --> 00:12:23.934 Now they've acquired stoplight or they're working on their own kind of thing. 00:12:23.959 --> 00:12:26.124 Or like everyone's, everyone's into it now. 00:12:26.124 --> 00:12:28.824 It's a thing, like it didn't exist as a, as a. 00:12:29.739 --> 00:12:33.249 It didn't exist more than conceptually in bullshit hacks until, until about then. 00:12:33.309 --> 00:12:34.239 So yeah. 00:12:34.239 --> 00:12:37.969 Now, now we're onto the, the good uptake the good part of the hype cycle where 00:12:37.969 --> 00:12:40.429 it's not just early adopters, it's loads more people and people are looking 00:12:40.429 --> 00:12:42.829 for different tools and they might not want something that's JavaScript. 00:12:42.829 --> 00:12:45.499 They might not want something that's slow and that, and they might want 00:12:45.504 --> 00:12:48.229 something, you know, some people want things that are CLI based or like 00:12:48.229 --> 00:12:49.549 other different types of interface. 00:12:49.554 --> 00:12:52.354 We've got the rate my open API app. 00:12:52.834 --> 00:12:54.874 That's turned up that you've been helping out with. 00:12:54.924 --> 00:12:57.684 So that's by Zulo, but you know, they, they're running on, on vacuum. 00:12:58.044 --> 00:13:01.469 And then there's I did a review of these two API insights as a 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:02.444 Quobix: by treble though, right? 00:13:02.804 --> 00:13:03.194 Track 1: Trouble. 00:13:03.194 --> 00:13:03.584 Yeah. 00:13:03.584 --> 00:13:08.114 And so them on the podcast recently, and I've done a review on APIs, you went hate 00:13:08.114 --> 00:13:11.594 blog about those two tools, but they're both more visuals instead of CLI based. 00:13:11.594 --> 00:13:15.734 So we, we've gone from a world where like these tools didn't exist to now where 00:13:15.734 --> 00:13:19.244 like these tools are aimed at different types of user and different types of use 00:13:19.244 --> 00:13:20.954 case, which is a brilliant place to be. 00:13:20.984 --> 00:13:22.694 'cause now we're all sharing ideas and. 00:13:22.939 --> 00:13:24.769 Powering each other and improving things. 00:13:24.769 --> 00:13:27.959 And there is a bit of a, in, in my head, coming from like a, a 00:13:27.959 --> 00:13:29.249 background with standards bodies. 00:13:29.249 --> 00:13:31.259 I'm like, why are there five different formats? 00:13:31.649 --> 00:13:35.189 You know, there's like, you thankfully have gone with a spectral compatible thing 00:13:35.189 --> 00:13:36.629 and maybe that will change in the future. 00:13:36.629 --> 00:13:41.249 But then there's kind of the redoc le into, which is its own more simple DSL. 00:13:41.774 --> 00:13:43.574 Simpler, but somewhat less powerful. 00:13:43.754 --> 00:13:48.664 And then potentially, and then there's the open, there's the optic CLI lint 00:13:48.664 --> 00:13:52.114 GPT, which is like, you can just send it a string of human words. 00:13:52.114 --> 00:13:55.144 And if you, you know, ask the wizard nicely, it will, it will 00:13:55.144 --> 00:13:56.074 give you the thing you want. 00:13:56.464 --> 00:13:58.679 And review of that on the blog recently as well. 00:13:59.009 --> 00:14:00.899 So we're in this amazing place where there's loads of 00:14:00.929 --> 00:14:02.629 linting going on and, and. 00:14:03.114 --> 00:14:03.834 I'm into it. 00:14:03.934 --> 00:14:08.374 I think vacuum, from what I've seen is, is blooming brilliant and I think your choice 00:14:08.374 --> 00:14:13.204 of langu in go is, is probably isn't gonna be a limiting factor to the speed. 00:14:13.204 --> 00:14:13.384 Right. 00:14:13.389 --> 00:14:17.914 I think a, a big benefit that you've got there is the way that it was architected. 00:14:17.944 --> 00:14:22.744 I think spectral is kind of tipping it hand as being in initially. 00:14:23.259 --> 00:14:27.699 A utility of stoplight studio where you are editing a bunch of files and 00:14:27.699 --> 00:14:31.089 whether they're local or on the cloud, it has all the files kind of local. 00:14:31.420 --> 00:14:35.829 Even the, even the cloud version would clone the entire repo into your browser 00:14:35.949 --> 00:14:37.719 and have all of those files like there. 00:14:37.939 --> 00:14:39.884 Yeah, clone it somewhere. 00:14:39.884 --> 00:14:41.384 It'll clone it into local storage. 00:14:41.604 --> 00:14:43.165 And then you could kind of access it from there. 00:14:43.314 --> 00:14:47.044 And basically the idea was, you'd kind of you'd run it and it would 00:14:47.044 --> 00:14:50.674 get an idea of all of your open API and then you'd, you'd edit one model 00:14:50.734 --> 00:14:53.435 and it would go, alright, let's just update that one model in, in the 00:14:53.435 --> 00:14:54.844 storage and it would run it from there. 00:14:54.844 --> 00:14:59.704 So it's more meant to lint while you edit, which is quite fast. 00:14:59.734 --> 00:15:02.435 'cause it does the initial upfront load and then it's just like, oh, 00:15:02.524 --> 00:15:04.234 you change your speech, change your speech, change this bit. 00:15:04.534 --> 00:15:08.265 But yeah, like when you've got, you know what's the, you, you were using GitHub. 00:15:08.930 --> 00:15:11.239 The GitHub example, which is Monstrous and Stripe as well. 00:15:11.239 --> 00:15:12.079 They're both huge. 00:15:12.499 --> 00:15:15.199 And yeah, when you just say, go and figure that whole thing out, it just 00:15:15.199 --> 00:15:18.919 kind of weeps and just can't handle it. 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.369 So yeah, it's great to see these different use cases being covered by by different 00:15:22.369 --> 00:15:26.059 approaches and I can only imagine how hard that was to, to build from scratch. 00:15:26.459 --> 00:15:26.879 Yeah. 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:27.849 Quobix: was, it was an adventure. 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:31.539 It was, it was, you know, it was definitely putting my imposter syndrome 00:15:31.599 --> 00:15:36.069 on full tilt, you know, standing and think, why can't I figure this out? 00:15:36.074 --> 00:15:38.649 You know, why can't I get this algorithm to work? 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:40.180 Why is it getting stuck? 00:15:40.180 --> 00:15:41.259 Why is it spinning out? 00:15:41.259 --> 00:15:42.399 Why are these threads pauses? 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:43.089 Why is this lock? 00:15:43.119 --> 00:15:46.359 I mean, it was just every, every time I tried to do it. 00:15:46.659 --> 00:15:51.090 So, you know, hats off to the engineers working on spectral because solving 00:15:51.090 --> 00:15:54.810 that problem, you know, and doing it in a way that works consistently. 00:15:55.275 --> 00:15:56.385 Very, very, very hard. 00:15:56.445 --> 00:15:57.225 Very, very hard. 00:15:57.510 --> 00:16:00.009 Track 1: Do you have you mentioned there wasn't that much adoption at 00:16:00.009 --> 00:16:01.989 first, is have things been picking up? 00:16:02.049 --> 00:16:04.599 That's where I started to go with my like hype cycle, ramble. 00:16:05.305 --> 00:16:08.034 Quobix: Yeah, there's, so it, it kind of, it, it's, it, it goes 00:16:08.034 --> 00:16:10.374 through little waves, depends on whether there's a holiday or not. 00:16:10.374 --> 00:16:15.414 Like a, the traffic to the docks, it's weekends, ghost Town, Monday 00:16:15.414 --> 00:16:17.634 morning, straight again spikes up. 00:16:17.634 --> 00:16:21.055 So it's very much following that kind of business you know, peaks and troughs. 00:16:21.444 --> 00:16:23.754 So, over Christmas it kind of dipped a bit, but then it was, you know, 00:16:23.874 --> 00:16:29.574 it's up to about, between 11, 12,000 downloads a month via MPM, it's had 00:16:29.574 --> 00:16:31.434 nearly half a million downloads, so it's. 00:16:31.929 --> 00:16:32.289 Track 1: Wow. 00:16:32.349 --> 00:16:33.281 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:16:33.535 --> 00:16:34.134 Quobix: it's moving. 00:16:34.140 --> 00:16:36.135 It's not where I'd want it to be, obviously, but it's 00:16:36.135 --> 00:16:37.214 definitely moving, you know, 00:16:37.409 --> 00:16:38.129 Track 1: Oh yeah, and I saw that. 00:16:38.134 --> 00:16:40.679 So it can be installed by NPM as well. 00:16:40.779 --> 00:16:40.999 Quobix: Yes. 00:16:41.419 --> 00:16:43.009 Track 1: That, that's, that's pretty interesting. 00:16:43.014 --> 00:16:43.189 Yeah. 00:16:43.219 --> 00:16:45.859 'cause things I, I've never, I've never tried running go in 00:16:45.859 --> 00:16:47.149 like GitHub actions or whatever. 00:16:47.149 --> 00:16:48.319 I'm sure it's fine. 00:16:48.439 --> 00:16:51.709 But whenever you ask people, like most open API tooling is. 00:16:52.474 --> 00:16:53.194 In JavaScript. 00:16:53.194 --> 00:16:56.824 It seems to be like a really node heavy community and not entirely 00:16:56.824 --> 00:16:57.934 sure why that is, but it is. 00:16:58.214 --> 00:17:01.334 And it's, so, it's, it is always good to see other languages 00:17:01.334 --> 00:17:02.594 kind of getting involved. 00:17:02.684 --> 00:17:05.444 But then because so many people are used to NPM, it's good 00:17:05.449 --> 00:17:06.344 to have that covered as well. 00:17:06.374 --> 00:17:08.834 'cause if you are, if you, if you're currently running spectral, you could 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:10.364 just run vacuum and, and see if it works 00:17:10.379 --> 00:17:12.239 Quobix: I mean, that's where the majority of the downloads 00:17:12.244 --> 00:17:14.429 come from is from MPM use. 00:17:14.529 --> 00:17:16.414 Whenever I speak to people on the forums or they come on the 00:17:16.414 --> 00:17:17.435 Discord, you know, they're. 00:17:17.989 --> 00:17:21.019 They're running it or installing it via MPM or Docker, those two, 00:17:21.050 --> 00:17:23.779 the, the most popular, which is really surprising for me. 00:17:23.779 --> 00:17:26.329 You know, I, I thought, you know, most people would want to be installing 00:17:26.329 --> 00:17:30.139 it, you know, as a CLI tool and have it as a binary, just, you know, using 00:17:30.139 --> 00:17:32.149 Home Brew or via Shell or something. 00:17:32.540 --> 00:17:33.620 But no, it's Docker. 00:17:33.679 --> 00:17:34.969 Yeah, Docker and MPM most 00:17:34.969 --> 00:17:35.389 popular. 00:17:36.259 --> 00:17:37.370 It was, yeah, very surprising. 00:17:38.029 --> 00:17:38.449 Track 1: Nice. 00:17:38.569 --> 00:17:42.439 Well yeah, great to give people a bunch of different installation options and where. 00:17:43.684 --> 00:17:44.944 Where's it at and where's it going? 00:17:44.944 --> 00:17:46.324 What's the plan for vacuum? 00:17:46.850 --> 00:17:47.299 Quobix: Yes. 00:17:47.389 --> 00:17:48.169 That's a great question. 00:17:48.169 --> 00:17:51.350 So the, the, the kind of the purpose of, of what I've been working 00:17:51.350 --> 00:17:54.590 recently, or up until this point, was to be able to get it to a state 00:17:54.594 --> 00:17:56.600 where it's consistently operated. 00:17:56.600 --> 00:18:00.350 The, the bugs that I can fix, I can solve are mostly, mostly cleared. 00:18:00.709 --> 00:18:04.309 And to be honest, the majority of them live outside of vacuum is actually in lib 00:18:04.309 --> 00:18:06.350 open API, which we can talk about a bit. 00:18:06.840 --> 00:18:10.080 And that getting that, that's, that's kind of the beating heart of everything 00:18:10.084 --> 00:18:11.729 and getting that to a point where. 00:18:12.274 --> 00:18:16.235 It's working for all the use cases of all the variations from the very, very 00:18:16.235 --> 00:18:18.364 complicated to the very, very simple. 00:18:18.735 --> 00:18:21.405 Basically, I wanted it to stop blowing up because I actually run it 00:18:21.405 --> 00:18:25.850 as a demo in the pipeline and when I first put it up, you know, every day. 00:18:26.349 --> 00:18:28.449 It just panic, panic, panic. 00:18:28.449 --> 00:18:29.649 And it would reset itself. 00:18:29.649 --> 00:18:32.919 You know, it's like a tiny little container, but I was just watching this 00:18:32.919 --> 00:18:36.039 just blow up over and over and over again, and I'd fix those bugs and then I'd 00:18:36.044 --> 00:18:38.229 wait, wait for it to spin outta control. 00:18:38.589 --> 00:18:40.149 And that stopped happening now. 00:18:40.179 --> 00:18:42.279 So now it's, it's not blowing up anymore. 00:18:42.284 --> 00:18:43.870 It's not spinning outta control. 00:18:44.049 --> 00:18:45.009 It's consistent. 00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:47.979 The error reports I'm seeing are very, very limited or 00:18:47.979 --> 00:18:49.179 things I already know about. 00:18:49.659 --> 00:18:53.559 So that's been the goal is to harden it, get it to the point where it's. 00:18:54.174 --> 00:18:58.404 I'm happy to say it's gonna run, you know, consistently now, wherever it is, the next 00:18:58.404 --> 00:19:00.504 piece is to start making it more usable. 00:19:00.504 --> 00:19:01.524 So for example. 00:19:02.095 --> 00:19:05.575 Like you, like you were talking about with rule sets and rules and the syntax of the 00:19:05.575 --> 00:19:10.524 DSL and doing J path queries and figuring out functions and function options, 00:19:10.885 --> 00:19:14.115 it can get a bit hairy particularly with, you know, you know, some really 00:19:14.115 --> 00:19:16.995 complicated rules and then you ha adding in custom JavaScript functions, 00:19:17.535 --> 00:19:20.115 all of that kind of, is it working? 00:19:20.175 --> 00:19:21.075 Can I test it? 00:19:21.165 --> 00:19:22.515 How do I know it's working? 00:19:22.875 --> 00:19:24.705 You need some kind of, you know. 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.890 Tool to be able to test your rule sets, test your rules, test your path, 00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:30.570 test your functions, test your logic. 00:19:31.020 --> 00:19:32.490 That doesn't exist right now. 00:19:32.550 --> 00:19:38.310 So that's the next step is to, to allow you to see your spec, see the linting, 00:19:38.310 --> 00:19:42.450 so, and label it to work with a language server so we can plug it straight into. 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.600 Vs code and, you know, make a VS code extension and then 00:19:45.630 --> 00:19:46.680 bring that even further. 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:50.730 So you can have a rule set editor and a rule editor and a, you know, try out your 00:19:50.730 --> 00:19:52.860 JavaScript function, see if it works. 00:19:52.860 --> 00:19:54.120 You know, does it, what does it pick up? 00:19:54.300 --> 00:19:55.020 What does this pick up? 00:19:55.020 --> 00:19:55.500 What happens? 00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:56.220 What's the outcome? 00:19:56.490 --> 00:20:00.120 So it's like a, you know, like a sound bit or a sandbox for rules and rule sets. 00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:03.600 That's where I'm gonna go next with it and improve the, the rendering. 00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:05.940 Right now there's an H TM L report, which I think is pretty good, 00:20:06.270 --> 00:20:08.640 but I could do better, do much 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:08.910 better. 00:20:09.540 --> 00:20:12.030 Track 1: Well, it's exciting to hear that 'cause I think the, 00:20:12.060 --> 00:20:13.320 the dev experience, like anyone. 00:20:13.995 --> 00:20:16.755 Anyone who's tried writing a bunch of spectral rule sets will 00:20:16.815 --> 00:20:18.405 know that it can be very hard. 00:20:18.405 --> 00:20:23.264 I'm currently updating the spectral ow wasp security rule set for security. 00:20:23.364 --> 00:20:24.834 What the top 10, 20, 23? 00:20:24.894 --> 00:20:26.604 'cause the previous report was 2019. 00:20:26.634 --> 00:20:31.844 And yeah, like I'm, I'm doing zany stuff and I, it's hard work and I think. 00:20:32.219 --> 00:20:35.069 It was always discussed at, sort like a long time ago that the 00:20:35.069 --> 00:20:39.149 plan was to build some sort of dev experience to help people do that. 00:20:39.149 --> 00:20:42.299 But it, it didn't get around to materializing 'cause the the effort was 00:20:42.304 --> 00:20:45.989 put into like making hosted rule sets where you could, instead of editing 00:20:45.989 --> 00:20:49.199 a YAML file on your computer, you've got a nice gooey for working on them. 00:20:49.439 --> 00:20:51.629 But that gooey was replacing the YAML file. 00:20:51.629 --> 00:20:53.339 It wasn't replacing the, the, the. 00:20:53.339 --> 00:20:56.084 The guts or the experience of working out what rules to put in. 00:20:56.384 --> 00:21:00.884 And so e even like a RegX power.com equivalent of like, here I am typing 00:21:00.884 --> 00:21:04.774 in a rule here you can see it's selecting the right bit of open API 00:21:04.774 --> 00:21:06.064 Now what would you like to do with it? 00:21:06.304 --> 00:21:08.044 Anything along those lines would really help. 00:21:08.254 --> 00:21:10.864 It's why I build them as NPM test suites because I could just 00:21:10.864 --> 00:21:13.924 type like NPM test, NPM test, NP test, and PM test and just like. 00:21:14.199 --> 00:21:17.349 Randomly bullshit my way towards getting to the correct solution. 00:21:17.349 --> 00:21:21.129 But that, that's the key thing because this is why we've seen people making 00:21:21.429 --> 00:21:25.809 wizard based approaches or like nicer DSL based approaches because the J 00:21:25.959 --> 00:21:29.620 path thing is so complicated and, and custom functions can be so difficult. 00:21:29.620 --> 00:21:33.609 But I don't feel like you can just avoid that problem with the DSL. 00:21:33.609 --> 00:21:39.289 Like with it, there's, there needs to be something in the middle or just a DSL. 00:21:39.289 --> 00:21:40.729 You can only do what the DSL does. 00:21:41.669 --> 00:21:46.829 But leaning forward into like, I'm gonna combine JSON path plus RegX based with 00:21:46.829 --> 00:21:51.089 RegX in it and like have no way of knowing if that's working well or not, apart from 00:21:51.094 --> 00:21:52.679 like trying it and seeing what happens. 00:21:52.979 --> 00:21:55.620 Neither of those are particularly good experiences. 00:21:56.474 --> 00:21:58.304 Quobix: Yes, exactly, exactly that. 00:21:58.304 --> 00:22:00.854 It's like you just, you just keep hitting it with a hammer over and over 00:22:00.854 --> 00:22:02.324 and over again until you see something. 00:22:02.794 --> 00:22:06.215 Having some kind of guide, some like feedback. 00:22:06.245 --> 00:22:08.764 It's, you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong. 00:22:08.770 --> 00:22:11.554 I've tried to capture that with some of the linting rules that. 00:22:12.020 --> 00:22:15.260 One thing you don't get with, I haven't seen anyway, with spectral is 00:22:15.260 --> 00:22:17.000 like, here's how to fix this problem. 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.510 It's like, here's your problem, but here's what you go and do to go and remedy it. 00:22:20.510 --> 00:22:23.209 And here's some docs of a good example and a bad example. 00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:26.690 So doing that same type of thing, but with, you know, the dev 00:22:26.690 --> 00:22:28.340 experience, you know your rules wrong. 00:22:28.340 --> 00:22:29.510 This is not finding anything. 00:22:29.510 --> 00:22:30.379 This is what it's picking up. 00:22:30.379 --> 00:22:32.389 This is, this is what you think you are getting, this is what you're 00:22:32.389 --> 00:22:33.350 actually getting, type thing. 00:22:33.800 --> 00:22:34.550 Track 1: Yeah, I gotcha. 00:22:34.850 --> 00:22:35.179 Alright. 00:22:35.209 --> 00:22:38.120 We could talk about Linton stuff for ages, and that's why I wanted 00:22:38.120 --> 00:22:39.139 to get this one done first. 00:22:39.139 --> 00:22:44.240 But you've built loads of other tools as well, and so wiretap is really cool. 00:22:44.270 --> 00:22:48.560 A a, a mocking server aiming to do some of what Prism was meant to do, but Prism 00:22:48.560 --> 00:22:53.120 kind of got left behind in prioritization a little bit and hasn't really done 00:22:53.270 --> 00:22:54.860 many of the things that it wanted to do. 00:22:55.504 --> 00:22:56.825 When it, when it started off? 00:22:56.875 --> 00:22:57.475 Unfortunately. 00:22:57.475 --> 00:23:00.235 So tell me a little bit about wire itap and 00:23:00.415 --> 00:23:00.804 Quobix: Yeah. 00:23:00.804 --> 00:23:01.195 Great. 00:23:01.195 --> 00:23:01.675 Thank you. 00:23:02.195 --> 00:23:05.634 So wiretap, it actually started this, there's this, there's something 00:23:05.634 --> 00:23:08.805 that's a, like a real u real life use case that I have at Splunk. 00:23:09.365 --> 00:23:10.295 There's two things. 00:23:10.345 --> 00:23:13.885 First the way that our, that we build our premium applications as Splunk 00:23:13.935 --> 00:23:16.935 we were using Webpac dev server for all of our front end stuff. 00:23:16.935 --> 00:23:19.634 So, you know, we, we load up our front end and it'll make all 00:23:19.634 --> 00:23:21.254 these API calls at the back end. 00:23:21.554 --> 00:23:23.685 Problem is, is that, you know, when we do. 00:23:24.175 --> 00:23:27.985 Running this thing for know, a few hours, it would start to choke, right? 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:30.834 The, the whole thing would just start, you know, API calls are 00:23:30.834 --> 00:23:32.905 failing, weird errors are coming back. 00:23:32.905 --> 00:23:34.495 It was caching some weird stuff. 00:23:34.764 --> 00:23:36.504 It was just, just didn't work. 00:23:36.504 --> 00:23:36.685 You know? 00:23:36.689 --> 00:23:37.975 It didn't work at scale. 00:23:38.004 --> 00:23:41.544 Great for smaller stuff, and when you start using it, let scale didn't work. 00:23:41.544 --> 00:23:42.504 So we had that problem there. 00:23:42.504 --> 00:23:43.195 The next problem is. 00:23:43.919 --> 00:23:47.820 We have all these front ends and backends, and some of them have a open API spec. 00:23:47.820 --> 00:23:51.509 Some of them don't, and we don't actually know if any of them 00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:52.799 are compliant with each other. 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:54.719 We don't have the backends been implemented properly. 00:23:54.725 --> 00:23:56.729 We don't have the front ends been implemented properly. 00:23:57.189 --> 00:24:00.850 And we don't, well, obviously the API open API spec is in in one condition as well. 00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:05.889 So problem A is we're struggling with how to build our UIs in 00:24:05.889 --> 00:24:08.290 the front end Problem B is. 00:24:08.605 --> 00:24:12.475 We we can't tell if our API traffic is compliant, frontend or backend. 00:24:12.595 --> 00:24:14.785 And there's the third problem, which is mocking and frontend. 00:24:14.785 --> 00:24:15.175 Mocking. 00:24:15.415 --> 00:24:18.175 Obviously you've been in software development, you know, the front end 00:24:18.355 --> 00:24:19.915 moves at different speed from the backend. 00:24:20.275 --> 00:24:24.175 So we get a bunch of requirements from PMs and the backend teams start moving 00:24:24.175 --> 00:24:25.795 at this, you know, a glacial speed. 00:24:25.795 --> 00:24:28.165 And the front end team, we're all like mocked up and ready to go with 00:24:28.165 --> 00:24:29.575 the ux, but there's no backend. 00:24:30.115 --> 00:24:30.895 What do we do? 00:24:30.925 --> 00:24:31.795 How do we move forward? 00:24:32.125 --> 00:24:36.235 So with API first, with an API first methodology, working on the contract 00:24:36.235 --> 00:24:39.655 first, we can then take something like wiretap and, and mock it out 00:24:40.044 --> 00:24:43.284 so we can have a front end working with the contract whilst the backend 00:24:43.290 --> 00:24:44.754 does, you know, their implementation. 00:24:45.145 --> 00:24:48.205 So it solves those, those three problems that we, that we have. 00:24:48.655 --> 00:24:49.705 And, you know, so. 00:24:50.155 --> 00:24:55.330 The, the way that we use it today is it powers our, our call local dev suite. 00:24:56.170 --> 00:25:00.010 So all the UI developers, they, when they run NPM start, it actually spins 00:25:00.010 --> 00:25:01.900 up wiretap, it's not spinning up webpac. 00:25:02.270 --> 00:25:04.940 And we can run a, we run web pack as a watcher, so it's recompiling all 00:25:04.940 --> 00:25:06.830 the JS and the CSS in the background. 00:25:07.280 --> 00:25:10.520 So it spins that up and then we start capturing all the, all the API traffic. 00:25:10.520 --> 00:25:13.040 So the other thing that it does was its primary goal. 00:25:13.615 --> 00:25:15.955 The, the, that's what I wanted to build it for. 00:25:15.955 --> 00:25:17.785 But I also saw these other use cases as well. 00:25:18.115 --> 00:25:21.685 Primary goals was mocking and API open API validation. 00:25:22.135 --> 00:25:26.085 So whilst it's serving all the static content, any APIs, it can, you 00:25:26.235 --> 00:25:29.985 read them in and you can configure them with, you know allow lists and 00:25:29.985 --> 00:25:31.545 denial lists and things like that. 00:25:31.545 --> 00:25:32.955 You can do path rewriting. 00:25:33.465 --> 00:25:36.705 A lot of the stuff that you get from like, like Webpac dev server, it's 00:25:36.705 --> 00:25:39.525 actually a drop in replacement for a lot of those features like, you 00:25:39.525 --> 00:25:42.555 know, variables and authentication tokens and all that kind of stuff. 00:25:42.555 --> 00:25:46.635 Anyway, it act as a proxy, a, a, a complete transparent proxy for all of 00:25:46.635 --> 00:25:50.625 your APIs and remap 'em if they need to, but it captures all the API traffic 00:25:50.925 --> 00:25:55.875 and allows you to, you know, validate the, the requests and responses and sch. 00:25:57.485 --> 00:26:01.805 Effectively looks at the whole open API contract in detail, and then shows 00:26:01.805 --> 00:26:03.875 you which of your requests are invalid. 00:26:03.875 --> 00:26:05.405 You know, how, how compliant are you? 00:26:05.675 --> 00:26:08.795 And then you can see where those, those, those violations are. 00:26:08.855 --> 00:26:12.005 And it gives you numbers to straight to the spec. 00:26:12.455 --> 00:26:16.145 That's something that's missing from a number of tools, is the ability to get to. 00:26:16.965 --> 00:26:17.895 Here's your problem. 00:26:18.075 --> 00:26:20.805 Here's why it's wrong here it is in the spec. 00:26:20.810 --> 00:26:24.645 Here's where it is in those line numbers and in go that functionality was 00:26:24.645 --> 00:26:28.095 missing from, from, you know, another of other libraries that are out there. 00:26:28.245 --> 00:26:28.485 So 00:26:28.575 --> 00:26:28.935 Track 1: gotcha. 00:26:28.965 --> 00:26:29.655 That's pretty handy. 00:26:29.655 --> 00:26:31.575 'cause the, that, that's always been, that's been the 00:26:31.575 --> 00:26:32.865 goal of so many tools that. 00:26:33.465 --> 00:26:36.675 Kind of the contract validation stuff I think is really important. 00:26:36.675 --> 00:26:39.345 So when we talk about validation, there's two types. 00:26:39.345 --> 00:26:43.545 And so vacuum tools like that, the linters, they are schema 00:26:43.545 --> 00:26:45.795 validators, like is my schema correct? 00:26:45.845 --> 00:26:49.185 To whatever roles I may have defined to the spec and to my preferences. 00:26:49.530 --> 00:26:53.110 But then there's the, I call it data validator which I've never 00:26:53.110 --> 00:26:54.400 said out loud and is annoying. 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:55.480 I need a different term now. 00:26:55.810 --> 00:26:57.770 But data validation doesn't sound so bad. 00:26:57.990 --> 00:27:01.560 But yeah, the goal of that is like, and is the data, is this, is this 00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:06.000 instance of Jason or whatever valid to what the schema said it should be. 00:27:06.190 --> 00:27:08.380 And, and that's pretty bloody key when people are. 00:27:08.910 --> 00:27:13.260 If you're doing the a PA design first, then you can, your, whatever, 00:27:13.260 --> 00:27:16.200 your teams in general will agree on a contract, and then everyone 00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:17.280 has to build to that contract. 00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:19.670 And, and your front end teams wanna build to it, and your 00:27:19.675 --> 00:27:20.870 backend teams wanna build to it. 00:27:21.110 --> 00:27:24.920 And if the, if the clients are sending things that don't conform to the rules. 00:27:25.245 --> 00:27:26.445 Someone should tell them. 00:27:26.665 --> 00:27:30.415 And if the backend team is also like emitting stuff that isn't 00:27:30.475 --> 00:27:32.155 right, someone should tell them too. 00:27:32.395 --> 00:27:35.245 And I think we kind of aim to do that with Prism. 00:27:35.275 --> 00:27:38.425 With you, you, you can build a mock server, so if the backend doesn't exist, 00:27:38.425 --> 00:27:40.775 you've got the mock server and you can just talk to the mock and it all 00:27:40.775 --> 00:27:41.915 let you know if you're doing it wrong. 00:27:42.125 --> 00:27:45.385 And then once you've actually got the once you've actually got the API, you switch 00:27:45.385 --> 00:27:49.075 that mock to a proxy and it will still put the same traffic through pretty invisible. 00:27:49.225 --> 00:27:51.115 Just there's a bit more business logic happening. 00:27:51.245 --> 00:27:53.435 Tax rules might actually be applied instead of just 00:27:53.435 --> 00:27:54.635 static examples coming back. 00:27:54.635 --> 00:27:55.835 That was kinda the plan for Prism. 00:27:56.045 --> 00:27:59.135 Sounds like y'all do the same thing too, but what I really liked about 00:27:59.135 --> 00:28:02.875 it was you, you've got a built in, like a Go terminal, like a ui thing. 00:28:03.025 --> 00:28:05.755 So you can actually see the requests that have gone through, see which one's 00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:07.345 passed, see which one, which one's failed. 00:28:07.585 --> 00:28:10.405 And if you wanted that with, with Prism, you didn't really get it like. 00:28:10.550 --> 00:28:11.750 You could sniff on some headers. 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:16.210 I think we had like a Xen something or other responses validation 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:19.960 errors kind of Jason that you then have to like unfurl somehow. 00:28:19.990 --> 00:28:22.960 But yeah, having it in that terminal built in, otherwise you've gotta go 00:28:22.965 --> 00:28:24.610 and have another proxy installed. 00:28:24.610 --> 00:28:26.830 Like go and set up Charles proxy or go and 00:28:26.930 --> 00:28:27.935 Quobix: Right, right. 00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:28.160 Yeah. 00:28:28.385 --> 00:28:30.695 Track 1: Some sort of sniffing thing, which is a bit of a pain in the backside. 00:28:30.695 --> 00:28:33.655 So yeah, having that all in one place is, is pretty handy. 00:28:33.655 --> 00:28:36.895 And especially if that's one command that your front end people can write. 00:28:37.075 --> 00:28:40.255 Maybe the front end people are, aren't, aren't the ones that 00:28:40.255 --> 00:28:41.305 wanna set up Charles' proxy. 00:28:41.305 --> 00:28:43.495 So yeah, that's, that's really handy. 00:28:44.005 --> 00:28:46.855 Quobix: Yeah, so it, it was, it was that, it's the same thing with vacuum. 00:28:46.855 --> 00:28:49.435 Like there's a console, CLI, there's a sort, the terminal 00:28:49.435 --> 00:28:51.505 CLI, there's A-H-T-M-L report. 00:28:51.505 --> 00:28:54.115 So with Wire it's got the same thing that, you know, you can 00:28:54.115 --> 00:28:55.465 run it, run it as a service. 00:28:55.555 --> 00:28:57.655 It runs, it actually powers some other stuff as well. 00:28:57.655 --> 00:29:04.110 But it runs as service or it runs as a, you know, as a, as a, a local, local ui, 00:29:04.145 --> 00:29:06.245 local GUI to be able to, to, to view it. 00:29:06.745 --> 00:29:07.135 And 00:29:07.135 --> 00:29:08.215 part of the, you know, the, the, 00:29:09.565 --> 00:29:09.715 Track 1: Sorry. 00:29:09.745 --> 00:29:12.715 I was just gonna say it, it, it can be a fia when I, I've said in the 00:29:12.715 --> 00:29:16.585 past some teams, some front end teams, like I, I don't, front end teams 00:29:16.585 --> 00:29:19.375 are perfectly smart and the front end stack is a lot more complicated 00:29:19.375 --> 00:29:20.635 than the backend in so many ways. 00:29:20.855 --> 00:29:24.605 But yes, when you give 'em a new tool, if I've tried to say like, oh yeah, 00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:28.565 just install like Prism and point it at this open API file and then like pass 00:29:28.565 --> 00:29:32.045 these options or whatever, and they're like, I don't really want to do that. 00:29:32.075 --> 00:29:33.395 'cause then they've got, you know, trying to get the. 00:29:33.615 --> 00:29:37.245 The proxy information out's a bit of a faf, but when I, if you can host 00:29:37.245 --> 00:29:40.485 it, then you can just like change an environment variable and say like, 00:29:40.485 --> 00:29:43.965 just point your front end at this instead of pointing it at that, or 00:29:44.085 --> 00:29:45.435 it's completely seamless to them. 00:29:45.435 --> 00:29:48.555 Like just point it at the API and you don't even need to know that 00:29:48.555 --> 00:29:49.575 it's running the proxy right now. 00:29:49.575 --> 00:29:50.955 We've just squished that into place. 00:29:51.205 --> 00:29:53.720 That, that makes it a lot more useful for those teams that don't wanna 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:54.860 figure out a new tool right now. 00:29:55.420 --> 00:29:58.870 Quobix: That's, it was exactly that use case is how, how, how do I make 00:29:58.870 --> 00:30:02.380 this completely transparently replace the thing that's giving us our dev 00:30:02.385 --> 00:30:06.430 experience right now and serving all the content and making all the API calls and 00:30:06.460 --> 00:30:08.200 proxying them to our staging servers. 00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:13.120 How do I replace that with, you know, so it's completely transparent so that 00:30:13.120 --> 00:30:16.780 even the MPM commands are the same in the script, is just, it's, you know, 00:30:16.900 --> 00:30:17.950 they don't have to think about it. 00:30:18.280 --> 00:30:20.770 That's what obviously makes the adoption so much easier 00:30:20.770 --> 00:30:21.670 because, you know, it's just. 00:30:22.340 --> 00:30:25.880 Just all of a, all of a sudden one day, it's just, it's not breaking anymore. 00:30:26.980 --> 00:30:27.310 Track 1: Yeah. 00:30:27.340 --> 00:30:27.730 Brilliant. 00:30:28.120 --> 00:30:31.060 Alright again, loads of other stuff I could talk to you about this, about. 00:30:31.110 --> 00:30:32.685 This is mostly just a chance for. 00:30:33.270 --> 00:30:36.270 For me to nerd out with someone who's working on the exact same problems 00:30:36.270 --> 00:30:37.410 that I spent years working on. 00:30:37.410 --> 00:30:39.630 So hopefully, hopefully some other listeners like this, 00:30:39.635 --> 00:30:40.800 but it's fun for me at least. 00:30:41.190 --> 00:30:44.760 Anyway, the next one, otherwise a massive waste of time. 00:30:45.100 --> 00:30:45.370 Hello. 00:30:45.375 --> 00:30:49.150 Is this thing on the, another thing you've been working on, which I 00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:52.530 always wanted to get involved with, but never had the chance is kind 00:30:52.530 --> 00:30:54.540 of changes and change detection. 00:30:54.545 --> 00:30:58.290 So this is a new, a new area that's kind of popping up for people is 00:30:58.650 --> 00:31:01.830 we've now, we've now spent enough time with the API design, first 00:31:01.830 --> 00:31:04.080 lifecycle, or whatever is going on. 00:31:04.320 --> 00:31:07.320 Enough people are making open API and describing their APIs well. 00:31:07.820 --> 00:31:12.650 They've learned how to, you know, describe it well with, with good standards. 00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:17.240 And they've learned how to make sure it's true by using contract 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:21.020 testing in their test suite or prison contract testing style proxies. 00:31:21.230 --> 00:31:22.730 That stuff's done great. 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:28.700 Now it's in production and people are making changes and shit's breaking 'cause 00:31:28.700 --> 00:31:32.030 people love making breaking changes and. 00:31:32.335 --> 00:31:36.265 There's an increasing number of tools that are coming out to, I, I haven't looked at 00:31:36.265 --> 00:31:41.255 how open API changes actually works, but I, there's optic Diff and Bump have got 00:31:41.255 --> 00:31:44.765 like breaking change detection on their, on their documentation deployment, which 00:31:44.765 --> 00:31:47.765 I'm, I've been doing some writing for them recently and it's quite a cool, and where 00:31:48.035 --> 00:31:51.065 you just kind like deploy your docs, keep on deploying your docs, put it in the. 00:31:51.335 --> 00:31:53.645 Put it in the pull request and just keep on deploying your 00:31:53.645 --> 00:31:54.815 docs when they go to master. 00:31:54.995 --> 00:31:57.515 And then on your pull requests it can go, whoa, there, there's 00:31:57.515 --> 00:31:58.595 a break and change in here. 00:31:58.595 --> 00:31:59.915 Is that something that you wanted to do? 00:31:59.915 --> 00:32:01.655 Or like, this has been removed, that's been added. 00:32:01.925 --> 00:32:04.265 And it's really nice to see more people getting into that. 00:32:04.295 --> 00:32:07.805 'cause that's one of the hardest problems in APIs is if y'all break, 00:32:08.045 --> 00:32:11.585 if you, if you change stuff, things are gonna break for your consumers. 00:32:11.615 --> 00:32:16.015 So how have you gone about stepping into the world of, of API changes and 00:32:16.015 --> 00:32:16.910 what problems are you trying to solve? 00:32:17.350 --> 00:32:17.470 I. 00:32:17.860 --> 00:32:19.330 Quobix: Yeah, it's a great question. 00:32:19.330 --> 00:32:22.720 So the, it's, it's exactly that is how do we know, and this is another 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.300 thing, there's another problem that, again, it's with my day job. 00:32:25.790 --> 00:32:28.760 I've always wanted to build this, I've actually built it before with VMware, 00:32:28.760 --> 00:32:33.240 but this is a very real problem, is devs aren't, because there's no testing, 00:32:33.245 --> 00:32:36.720 there's no compliance validation, there's no quality assurance on, on his open API 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:39.870 contracts, they're making changes or they changed automatically through code changes 00:32:39.870 --> 00:32:42.450 if it's code first and it gets deployed. 00:32:42.840 --> 00:32:45.540 There's no testing and a customer gets broken. 00:32:45.750 --> 00:32:48.840 It's like, well, well we, we read the contract and it's not working, 00:32:49.170 --> 00:32:52.110 and we're breaking each other, like we're breaking product A to product B. 00:32:52.390 --> 00:32:55.600 The integration points between them, because the teams just aren't. 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.500 They don't know, they, they're not following the, the dots aren't connected. 00:33:00.070 --> 00:33:03.410 So first, you know, you, the, the change detection only works 00:33:03.410 --> 00:33:06.420 if you are using the open a PA contract as that source of truth. 00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:09.240 And when you are, you know, you want to know exactly what has changed. 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:12.550 So there's, there's a, there's other tools out there, like like it's great 00:33:12.550 --> 00:33:16.340 tools like OASD that does, you know, same thing, you put rules in there. 00:33:16.810 --> 00:33:20.470 The, the thing that I noticed though with a lot of these diff tools is. 00:33:21.065 --> 00:33:25.485 I, I, I'm, I'm getting like a, like you would get with vacuum, you get a straight. 00:33:26.120 --> 00:33:28.845 A hot list of all of the violations that have occurred. 00:33:29.235 --> 00:33:32.865 And it's, it's when there's, there's a lot of them, it's a okay, where 00:33:32.865 --> 00:33:33.975 in the model has that changed? 00:33:33.975 --> 00:33:38.880 Because that property, that name ID, is used 10,000 times and I 00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:40.455 dunno, which, I dunno where it is. 00:33:40.455 --> 00:33:43.485 And if I can't see it, I don't have a visual representation of it. 00:33:43.825 --> 00:33:46.375 I'm struggling to get the gestalt of what's actually changed. 00:33:46.795 --> 00:33:49.675 So that was the approach that I took with Open API changes is it's 00:33:49.885 --> 00:33:51.865 actually more of a visual rendering. 00:33:51.865 --> 00:33:52.345 So it does. 00:33:52.600 --> 00:33:53.260 Two things. 00:33:53.260 --> 00:33:56.050 It the way, the way it works, it, it reads in the model. 00:33:56.690 --> 00:34:00.970 From both A and B, then it does actually every single object 00:34:00.970 --> 00:34:02.620 as a hash check against this. 00:34:02.620 --> 00:34:05.260 So it takes the object, hashes it in to says, has it changed? 00:34:05.530 --> 00:34:08.410 And if it has changed, it looks at every single property, what was 00:34:08.410 --> 00:34:10.300 added, what was removed, and decide if it was, you know, is there a 00:34:10.300 --> 00:34:14.140 braking change if you added like a, a non-optional parameter, things like that. 00:34:14.625 --> 00:34:18.075 And then what it will do is render out those changes as part of the. 00:34:18.095 --> 00:34:20.195 The model of the open API document. 00:34:20.435 --> 00:34:23.465 So you can see the past, you can see the parameters were added. 00:34:23.465 --> 00:34:27.905 You can see where in the structure it was changed and then you can flip it. 00:34:27.955 --> 00:34:30.625 Instead of just looking at a tree, you can look at a graph like it 00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:32.725 actually renders out a visual graph. 00:34:33.145 --> 00:34:37.870 I was really inspired by a tool called jason crack.com and it's 00:34:37.875 --> 00:34:41.020 allows you to feed in adjacent file and it will visualize it. 00:34:41.050 --> 00:34:42.880 It broken apart and you can see it. 00:34:43.315 --> 00:34:45.010 I was like, that's very, very good. 00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:46.710 That's very useful. 00:34:46.740 --> 00:34:49.710 I would like to see that, but with something that's not just adjacent 00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:52.020 file, you know, a, a, a data structure. 00:34:52.410 --> 00:34:53.700 So I took that same idea. 00:34:53.910 --> 00:34:54.810 I used all the same light. 00:34:54.810 --> 00:34:57.360 In fact, I built this all in React just so I could make it work with the 00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.440 tool that they, because I loved it. 00:34:59.030 --> 00:35:02.300 And yeah, we recreated that same experience, but now instead of 00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:05.060 rendering out just the J file, it's rendering out the change tree. 00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:10.490 So you can see the open API document as a visual graph and explore it that way, and 00:35:10.495 --> 00:35:14.000 you can rotate it, you know, and we'll get all different layouts and stuff like that. 00:35:14.710 --> 00:35:19.300 But, so it's a visual way to explore and also it then it gives 00:35:19.300 --> 00:35:20.980 you the ability to go back in time. 00:35:21.250 --> 00:35:24.310 So you can not only see, you know, the change from where you are today, but you 00:35:24.310 --> 00:35:26.710 can see where it was previous before that. 00:35:26.715 --> 00:35:30.190 And then it gives you some graphs and charts of how it has changed over time. 00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:34.810 So it's, it's like a local tool right now that will give you that, whether, whether 00:35:34.810 --> 00:35:37.660 you've got a local Git repository, it will look through all of your revisions. 00:35:37.660 --> 00:35:43.280 It will just do a left or a right, or it can pull straight from GitHub and pull 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:44.780 down all the, the revisions for that. 00:35:44.780 --> 00:35:48.740 You just literally pointed at the, the open file and pull down all the, all the, 00:35:49.010 --> 00:35:53.240 the commits that you've had, and then do diffs for every single one up to a limit. 00:35:53.270 --> 00:35:57.410 You can, you can limit it to five or 10 or whatever, but it was a different 00:35:57.410 --> 00:35:58.640 experience that I was missing. 00:35:58.790 --> 00:36:02.090 I want to see what's changed over time and I want to visualize it. 00:36:02.150 --> 00:36:06.830 I don't just want a, a straight list of violations here in like, like a. 00:36:07.095 --> 00:36:10.365 You know, like vacuum or spectral, when is something more visual? 00:36:10.635 --> 00:36:13.035 So that's, that's the difference of how it works. 00:36:13.065 --> 00:36:14.565 It's gets custom built. 00:36:14.625 --> 00:36:17.535 It doesn't use any other existing libraries other than the open API. 00:36:18.035 --> 00:36:19.985 And it walks the model as a hierarchy. 00:36:19.985 --> 00:36:24.065 So it gives you a hierarchical rendering com complete with, you know, line numbers 00:36:24.065 --> 00:36:26.885 and columns, which is also missing from a number of other tools that don't 00:36:26.885 --> 00:36:28.655 give you the line numbers and columns. 00:36:28.655 --> 00:36:30.575 They just tell you the path to where it changed. 00:36:30.930 --> 00:36:31.620 Track 1: Absolutely. 00:36:31.890 --> 00:36:34.200 Well, yeah, that's, that's back to what I said about some of the pres 00:36:34.200 --> 00:36:38.040 spectral stuff in it where yeah, people are like, I, I read all of 00:36:38.040 --> 00:36:40.530 your files into this massive array. 00:36:40.530 --> 00:36:43.620 Now go figure out where in this massive array array it went wrong. 00:36:43.625 --> 00:36:44.850 You're like, that's not helpful. 00:36:44.850 --> 00:36:45.840 I need to fix this. 00:36:46.260 --> 00:36:51.520 So yeah, I think some of those tools were kind of designed by either. 00:36:51.985 --> 00:36:54.655 Very small teams that didn't have a chance to like really get into it, 00:36:54.655 --> 00:36:58.615 or were kind of designed by people that aren't as in the trenches 00:36:58.615 --> 00:37:00.115 doing open API stuff all the time. 00:37:00.115 --> 00:37:01.945 So therefore, didn't really realize the importance. 00:37:01.950 --> 00:37:05.935 Like, Hey, our product manager's happy, but the people that actually 00:37:05.935 --> 00:37:08.305 need this to solve actual problems aren't, aren't so impressed. 00:37:08.310 --> 00:37:10.045 So that's, that's pretty handy. 00:37:10.565 --> 00:37:13.925 I do wonder with some of this stuff, with like the breaking changes in open 00:37:13.925 --> 00:37:17.105 API, like, I feel there's, there's a little part of my brain that's like, 00:37:17.105 --> 00:37:18.605 did we create a problem for ourselves? 00:37:18.845 --> 00:37:24.935 Where originally a lot of the tools that I didn't like so much would keep open API 00:37:25.265 --> 00:37:26.885 completely separate from the source code. 00:37:27.035 --> 00:37:30.305 And, you know, maybe some, if you're doing code first and then you just render it, 00:37:30.395 --> 00:37:33.935 render out some open API and it somewhere that's, whatever, that's a bit different. 00:37:34.355 --> 00:37:38.825 But as, as well, a lot of people will export the open API from their 00:37:38.825 --> 00:37:40.775 code and then it goes into the repo. 00:37:40.925 --> 00:37:43.445 And if you're designed first, it lives in the repo and then you actually use 00:37:43.445 --> 00:37:46.985 it as the source of truth, maybe for testing, maybe to power some of the code. 00:37:46.985 --> 00:37:53.075 So either way you go more often, open API lives in the repo so that you 00:37:53.075 --> 00:37:56.165 know when you make a pull request, any changes that happen will happen to your 00:37:56.165 --> 00:37:59.495 open API and therefore your docs and your hosted marks and everything else 00:37:59.500 --> 00:38:01.295 all at once, all along with the code. 00:38:01.300 --> 00:38:02.405 So it's a bit more atomic. 00:38:02.595 --> 00:38:06.435 A way that things worked before that was, yeah, you, you've got your code over here 00:38:06.585 --> 00:38:10.455 and you've got your contract testing suite over there and that meant that if you made 00:38:10.455 --> 00:38:14.205 a breaking change, then it would probably notice, like the completely separate 00:38:14.205 --> 00:38:18.255 contract test suite would, would kind of notice 'cause you hadn't updated that. 00:38:18.555 --> 00:38:22.095 And it was always really annoying if you, if you make an intentional change. 00:38:23.070 --> 00:38:26.220 Then it breaks your contract test suite and you have to go and change that. 00:38:26.220 --> 00:38:30.510 So that always kind of annoyed me, but it, it does at least kind of then give you 00:38:30.510 --> 00:38:32.730 some protection against that happening. 00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:35.850 But as soon as we've moved it all into the repo, you can easily just like delete 00:38:36.090 --> 00:38:37.860 something and it breaks for everyone. 00:38:38.110 --> 00:38:40.420 And it goes, yes, I've contract tested with myself, and I've 00:38:40.420 --> 00:38:41.410 agreed that I'm correct. 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:45.510 So even though I'm not what the clients want and that, and that's 00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:47.130 where tools like Pact come in, right? 00:38:47.130 --> 00:38:51.450 'cause then the, the, the consumer has to set up their own contract testing, which 00:38:51.450 --> 00:38:55.560 isn't, you know, the, the producer is, hi, my API does what I think it should. 00:38:55.710 --> 00:38:59.190 And then consumer testing is like, does your API do what I think it should. 00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:02.550 And I, you know, the consumers can test for the bits they're interested in. 00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:08.860 But if, if you have change detection running then you can, I dunno if open 00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:12.610 a PA changes does this, some of the diff tools do where your consumers can 00:39:12.610 --> 00:39:16.300 actually subscribe to changes and get like an email when changes come out. 00:39:16.540 --> 00:39:16.840 And I don't 00:39:16.885 --> 00:39:17.635 Quobix: that's a good idea. 00:39:17.785 --> 00:39:18.570 I'll run that one down. 00:39:18.820 --> 00:39:21.010 Track 1: automate something that, something the bump does. 00:39:21.010 --> 00:39:23.560 And I really like that 'cause it, it, it solves both. 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:26.230 I've not needed to make this really annoying. 00:39:26.560 --> 00:39:30.070 Blocker where, you know, your contract testing is totally separate from your 00:39:30.070 --> 00:39:33.460 code and you constantly have to go and change it in two different places, but 00:39:33.520 --> 00:39:37.060 you haven't also forced all of the work onto your consumers to find out whether 00:39:37.060 --> 00:39:38.620 you've broken shit recently or not. 00:39:38.890 --> 00:39:40.240 They can find out what's changed. 00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:41.800 They can find out if they care about it. 00:39:41.805 --> 00:39:44.380 And, and that's a, a powerful thing for change detection, I think. 00:39:44.380 --> 00:39:45.820 But yeah, that 00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:46.360 Quobix: Yeah, it is. 00:39:46.385 --> 00:39:49.600 it it it it very powerful and it's a, it is a big problem, right? 00:39:49.600 --> 00:39:52.000 Big problem is like, how do, how do, how, how do we, you 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.020 know, find the balance there. 00:39:53.290 --> 00:39:57.400 I like that idea of, you know, like a Slack or a message email or something. 00:39:57.730 --> 00:40:01.450 It don't do any of that stuff because it's, it's just like a local tool. 00:40:01.450 --> 00:40:03.430 It has no kind of network connect. 00:40:03.430 --> 00:40:06.470 I mean, it, it, it does some stuff, but yeah, there's no like put 00:40:06.470 --> 00:40:07.940 your emails, no subscriptions yet. 00:40:08.180 --> 00:40:08.810 Track 1: No, that's cool. 00:40:08.810 --> 00:40:10.790 Well, we've got more to talk about here 'cause you've got, you've 00:40:10.790 --> 00:40:12.230 been busy, you've been really busy. 00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:15.130 We have been talking about three open source tools that you've worked 00:40:15.130 --> 00:40:20.320 on, and they are powered by lib open API Now do you just enjoy writing 00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:22.630 code or why, why does that exist? 00:40:23.875 --> 00:40:27.980 Quobix: So, yeah, so it, again, it started with this, all the tools that I've seen 00:40:27.980 --> 00:40:31.610 out there, they're missing some of these key pieces that I need to be able to 00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:32.930 build the tools that I want to build. 00:40:32.930 --> 00:40:35.660 So I'm still trying to build the tool that I want to build and all the bits 00:40:35.660 --> 00:40:38.720 that I need to build it haven't, they didn't exist or they didn't exist 00:40:38.720 --> 00:40:39.770 in the way that I needed them to. 00:40:40.310 --> 00:40:44.630 And I started with vacuum and lib open API was born inside vacuum. 00:40:44.875 --> 00:40:49.425 And it was, how do I, how do I pass this open API filing go. 00:40:49.605 --> 00:40:52.665 So there's already a great library out there, like kin open API. 00:40:53.065 --> 00:40:55.645 And that was my, just, so why would I reinvent this? 00:40:55.650 --> 00:40:57.025 Why would I redo this work? 00:40:57.595 --> 00:40:59.635 And I went to the plug it in. 00:40:59.640 --> 00:41:00.955 But there's, there's, there's a problem. 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:02.065 There's two problems actually. 00:41:02.875 --> 00:41:05.755 The first problem is it's a fundamental design problem. 00:41:06.305 --> 00:41:10.445 The way that it, when it passes in the model, it loses all the context 00:41:10.445 --> 00:41:15.185 of line numbers and columns, which is critical in my opinion, for being 00:41:15.185 --> 00:41:18.085 able to do change detection and show you where things have changed. 00:41:18.085 --> 00:41:21.325 And then with the, you know, being able to build, same thing for linting. 00:41:21.385 --> 00:41:23.935 I need to know where it is to be able to say, here's the problem. 00:41:24.395 --> 00:41:26.790 And it doesn't have that, and it won't be able to have that because of the, 00:41:26.790 --> 00:41:28.050 the way the architects put together. 00:41:28.050 --> 00:41:32.610 So the only way to do it was to literally rebuild it from scratch as 00:41:32.610 --> 00:41:34.350 a, like a compiler passing the abac. 00:41:34.835 --> 00:41:39.275 Abstract syntax tree, which is, you know, the raw YAML effectively, 00:41:39.275 --> 00:41:42.995 or the raw Jason, and then put that into a model that captures 00:41:42.995 --> 00:41:44.675 all of that low level information. 00:41:44.675 --> 00:41:48.005 And there's things like anchors and aliases and comments 00:41:48.005 --> 00:41:49.535 in YAML that all get lost. 00:41:49.955 --> 00:41:52.985 And you need to know about all of the sources of that and where it was come 00:41:52.985 --> 00:41:54.755 from, particularly doing like references. 00:41:55.325 --> 00:41:57.395 Anyway that's why it exists because. 00:41:58.020 --> 00:41:59.760 F first of all, there was no lineups and columns. 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:03.900 The second thing is that KIN doesn't support 3.1 yet, and 00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:04.140 that 00:42:04.515 --> 00:42:06.405 Track 1: Does it spot 3.0 even? 00:42:06.630 --> 00:42:08.760 Quobix: it does, yeah, it does support 3.0. 00:42:09.170 --> 00:42:12.360 But simply because of it's got its own Jason Schema model. 00:42:12.660 --> 00:42:15.630 The problem is, is we have exclusive minimum, exclusive maximum, you know, 00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:17.850 went from Boolean to and things like that. 00:42:17.925 --> 00:42:18.285 Track 1: All the nut 00:42:18.525 --> 00:42:21.525 Quobix: Unless you've got like, like ability to do dynamic objects, 00:42:21.525 --> 00:42:25.605 which is what we have in lib open API, you're kind of stuck and you've 00:42:25.605 --> 00:42:27.045 gotta rebuild the whole thing again. 00:42:27.115 --> 00:42:29.005 And that's kind of where the project is. 00:42:29.005 --> 00:42:32.955 It's you've gotta rebuild the model to be able to make this work, which is just, 00:42:33.225 --> 00:42:35.095 it's just too much for some maintainers. 00:42:35.725 --> 00:42:39.835 So that's why I, I built it 'cause what I needed didn't exist and we, I wasn't 00:42:39.835 --> 00:42:41.485 gonna be able to get to 3.1 support. 00:42:41.925 --> 00:42:45.255 And, you know, it's a useful tool by itself. 00:42:45.285 --> 00:42:46.875 So live it just inside vacuum. 00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:49.515 When people don't wanna do linting, they just wanna be able to pass the model 00:42:49.515 --> 00:42:51.705 or do d diff checking programmatically. 00:42:52.005 --> 00:42:54.195 So that's, that's why I built it and that's why I exist. 00:42:54.195 --> 00:42:56.175 And yes, to answer your first question, I love coding. 00:42:56.655 --> 00:42:57.585 Love coding 00:42:57.780 --> 00:43:01.170 Track 1: Just like you really enjoy writing the really just like difficult 00:43:01.170 --> 00:43:05.340 under the hood, low level, just like writing some code that in, in like 00:43:06.600 --> 00:43:10.680 inspects YAML anchors, like most people don't even like working with YAML 00:43:10.680 --> 00:43:14.430 anchors, but you're like, let me write some code that muck about with this, or 00:43:14.745 --> 00:43:16.005 Quobix: yeah, yeah. 00:43:16.545 --> 00:43:16.995 yeah. 00:43:17.055 --> 00:43:19.605 Part, you know, part of the challenge is can, can I even do this? 00:43:19.605 --> 00:43:21.165 Do I, am I good enough to do that? 00:43:21.165 --> 00:43:24.675 And you know, the, then there's the, there's something, there's something 00:43:24.680 --> 00:43:27.315 really rewarding about, you know, when you're working in these high 00:43:27.315 --> 00:43:30.285 level experiences and you are, know, rendering, you know, graphs 00:43:30.290 --> 00:43:32.685 and charts to be able to trace. 00:43:33.295 --> 00:43:37.195 All the way down to the, the code that literally read those bites in from the 00:43:37.195 --> 00:43:40.975 spec and know that tree is something very rewarding about that to me. 00:43:41.065 --> 00:43:41.605 You know, have 00:43:41.605 --> 00:43:44.665 that, that over at that full, that full view. 00:43:45.175 --> 00:43:46.675 But anyway, yeah, that's that's a lib open. 00:43:46.675 --> 00:43:46.975 API. 00:43:46.975 --> 00:43:48.505 It's the heart of all the tools. 00:43:48.565 --> 00:43:51.265 It's, you know, it's the ultimate in dog food, if you will. 00:43:51.415 --> 00:43:53.275 Every single piece relies on this. 00:43:53.635 --> 00:43:58.585 So when all these things break in these higher levels, it always usually traces 00:43:58.585 --> 00:44:00.055 back to a problem in live open a p. 00:44:00.900 --> 00:44:01.190 Track 1: Yeah, 00:44:02.010 --> 00:44:03.090 Quobix: It's pretty robust. 00:44:03.150 --> 00:44:05.700 There's no real open bug reports. 00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:08.620 Clinger, there's a few, but maybe it depends on who you look at 00:44:08.695 --> 00:44:10.135 Track 1: there's, there's, there's always some things. 00:44:10.540 --> 00:44:12.520 Quobix: there's always some stuff in, there's, there's, there's a few things 00:44:12.520 --> 00:44:16.510 in there, but it's, it's actually the point where, you know, if I wanted to, 00:44:16.510 --> 00:44:20.680 it would be able to cut a 1.0 release, which is kind of very rare, but Yeah. 00:44:20.830 --> 00:44:21.220 it's, 00:44:22.495 --> 00:44:23.455 Track 1: Well, that's, that's brilliant. 00:44:23.455 --> 00:44:27.745 And so you, you're doing this, you're doing this all as a side project and 00:44:27.750 --> 00:44:31.500 one of the questions someone was asking APIs was like, how sustainable is this? 00:44:31.505 --> 00:44:33.570 Like, is this just a hobby that you'll get bored of? 00:44:33.940 --> 00:44:37.270 And so that brings us to the next topic, which is. 00:44:37.810 --> 00:44:40.660 You're building like a SaaS and a suite to tie this all together. 00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:41.320 How? 00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:42.220 How does that work? 00:44:42.940 --> 00:44:43.600 Quobix: So like that. 00:44:43.600 --> 00:44:46.360 So all of the individual tools, you know, they're useful in their own purposes, 00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:49.390 but they're all designed as, they're, they're tools that you download them, you 00:44:49.395 --> 00:44:51.310 own them, you run them, you modify them. 00:44:51.315 --> 00:44:52.780 They're, they're yours forever. 00:44:53.300 --> 00:44:55.815 But then there's the idea of, well, well, all these individual pieces 00:44:55.815 --> 00:44:57.465 are valuable, but what if it was all. 00:44:58.030 --> 00:45:01.510 Put together, you know, the, the idea of a suite, that that's, they're all in. 00:45:01.540 --> 00:45:03.070 They're actually designed to work together. 00:45:03.070 --> 00:45:05.380 They're all put, built in a way that they'll click together. 00:45:05.900 --> 00:45:09.560 So it's being able to do quality analysis and have the ability to edit 00:45:09.560 --> 00:45:13.670 rule sets and, you know, and then be able to visualize your contracts 00:45:13.670 --> 00:45:15.440 and see your schemas visually. 00:45:15.470 --> 00:45:17.270 It's another thing that we've kind of lacking on. 00:45:17.660 --> 00:45:19.880 You know, there's, there's tools out there that will visualize. 00:45:19.905 --> 00:45:21.135 To a certain degree. 00:45:21.135 --> 00:45:25.905 But for example, if I'm designing a whole bunch of schemas in an open API, how can 00:45:25.905 --> 00:45:27.975 I take a look at the, the class hierarchy? 00:45:28.035 --> 00:45:28.965 Hierarchy, sorry. 00:45:29.315 --> 00:45:33.085 In, you know, in some form of UML, you know, maybe not ml, I dunno. 00:45:33.355 --> 00:45:36.775 But you get to the point is how do I visualize it? 00:45:36.895 --> 00:45:38.605 How do I do change detection? 00:45:38.605 --> 00:45:40.525 How do I do mocking and testing? 00:45:40.555 --> 00:45:41.635 How do I do compliance? 00:45:41.635 --> 00:45:42.625 How do I do validation? 00:45:42.985 --> 00:45:44.035 Having that as part of. 00:45:44.375 --> 00:45:48.485 One tool that, you know, works as a desktop app, but also is 00:45:48.485 --> 00:45:50.315 available as a SaaS platform. 00:45:50.315 --> 00:45:54.215 So know, so it's got its own full API and then it means it can be introduced 00:45:54.220 --> 00:45:58.115 into things like GitHub actions and all of those functionalities that you 00:45:58.120 --> 00:46:02.705 use as the individual tools now become available as a service or as a suite 00:46:02.705 --> 00:46:06.455 that you can, you can download and then moving that forward and offering, you 00:46:06.455 --> 00:46:08.765 know, really what I wanna focus on is. 00:46:09.015 --> 00:46:13.935 The upstream elements of all of open APIs focusing on the contracts, not 00:46:13.995 --> 00:46:17.775 necessarily the artifacts that are generated from the contracts like SDKs 00:46:18.215 --> 00:46:23.645 and, you know, docs to some degree, but it's really about maintaining, you know 00:46:23.700 --> 00:46:25.800 giving you visibility into the contract. 00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:29.130 A lot of it is inspired by a lot of the work that's stoplight has done, you know 00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:30.240 Track 1: Cool. 00:46:30.270 --> 00:46:32.910 I mean, yeah, there's, there's a lot of different verticals, right? 00:46:32.940 --> 00:46:36.540 So there, we talk to a lot of all vendors on this podcast and I'm usually asking 00:46:36.540 --> 00:46:37.680 'em which bits they're going for, 'cause. 00:46:38.155 --> 00:46:40.585 Jason Harmon from Stoplight did a brilliant piece about how you can't 00:46:40.585 --> 00:46:44.965 do every vertical well, and anyone who tries is delusional or lying. 00:46:45.075 --> 00:46:48.140 And not, not those exact words, but something along those lines. 00:46:48.140 --> 00:46:50.150 And it, it definitely, it definitely checks out. 00:46:50.150 --> 00:46:52.700 Like there's a lot of companies that kind of do a certain vertical 00:46:52.700 --> 00:46:55.910 as a checkbox activity and, and it's just sad for everyone. 00:46:55.910 --> 00:46:58.185 But yeah, it seems like, so focusing on. 00:46:58.775 --> 00:47:04.605 Kind of linting and mocking and, and validation and that, that's, that's 00:47:04.605 --> 00:47:05.895 already quite and change detection. 00:47:06.075 --> 00:47:10.065 That's already quite, quite a blooming lot, but it's, it's all areas that 00:47:10.575 --> 00:47:13.895 aren't massively well served currently. 00:47:13.900 --> 00:47:17.025 I mean yeah, there's a lot of tools that kind of go for it, but they've 00:47:17.025 --> 00:47:19.245 all got primary focuses elsewhere. 00:47:19.455 --> 00:47:23.535 So e even if you kind of do put in some, some docs, I mean, you know. 00:47:24.120 --> 00:47:25.200 Not, that's not the hardest one. 00:47:25.200 --> 00:47:28.290 Once you've got some open API, you can render it with a pretty interface. 00:47:28.620 --> 00:47:30.480 So like everyone does docs and something else. 00:47:30.590 --> 00:47:34.010 But yeah, that's, it's an interesting series of verticals to go for and it's 00:47:34.015 --> 00:47:37.880 good that there's a plan to get some money involved to help you work on that. 00:47:37.910 --> 00:47:38.360 'cause it's not, I. 00:47:38.810 --> 00:47:42.710 Something you can do Well if it's purely evenings and weekends, not, not 00:47:42.725 --> 00:47:43.015 Quobix: Yeah. 00:47:43.370 --> 00:47:44.690 Track 1: not in that sweet sense. 00:47:44.690 --> 00:47:46.880 Like you can make the tools and give them out to people, 00:47:47.090 --> 00:47:48.230 but glue in it all together. 00:47:48.230 --> 00:47:51.950 I, I compare it to like, you know, I want, I want to set a cutlery and and, 00:47:51.950 --> 00:47:54.620 and I've just got a knife and I'm like, all right, well let me just whittle for 00:47:54.650 --> 00:47:56.870 the next two days and I'll have that. 00:47:57.060 --> 00:47:58.920 But like, not everyone wants to do that. 00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.340 They don't want to go, all right, let me plug this into this part of the ci and 00:48:02.340 --> 00:48:06.300 then that can do these other 12 steps, you know, glue it together for me please. 00:48:06.765 --> 00:48:07.665 Quobix: Yes, yes. 00:48:07.695 --> 00:48:08.175 It's the glue. 00:48:08.235 --> 00:48:08.355 Yeah. 00:48:08.355 --> 00:48:11.385 Gl I'll, I'll, here's a service that sticks it all together for you and 00:48:11.385 --> 00:48:15.375 gives you, you know, a lovely set of interfaces, easy APIs to integrate with. 00:48:15.805 --> 00:48:16.315 So you're right. 00:48:16.315 --> 00:48:16.495 Yeah. 00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:20.515 It, it, it can't be something that just stays as evenings and weekends. 00:48:20.570 --> 00:48:23.720 That's my long term goal is to turn it into, you know, a business that 00:48:23.780 --> 00:48:25.280 I can work on, you know, full time. 00:48:25.850 --> 00:48:27.530 That's, that's where, that's where I want to be. 00:48:27.590 --> 00:48:29.780 And, you know, it depends on the, the reason why I'm doing 00:48:29.780 --> 00:48:31.520 this right now is validation. 00:48:31.520 --> 00:48:36.800 Is it, would people even pay, would they be interested in, you know, there's users 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:40.700 of open API, there's all these companies that are using it, but are they gonna. 00:48:41.225 --> 00:48:41.795 Four Cal. 00:48:41.795 --> 00:48:44.915 And I know that model exists because, you know, the, through the success 00:48:44.915 --> 00:48:50.525 of companies like Bump or optic or Speakeasy or you know stop Lying, being 00:48:50.525 --> 00:48:53.315 acquired, definitely a, a market for it. 00:48:53.625 --> 00:48:56.235 I just wanted to see, first of all, would people be interested 00:48:56.235 --> 00:48:57.525 in using my tools first? 00:48:58.215 --> 00:49:00.945 That seems to be, you know, validated to a degree. 00:49:01.005 --> 00:49:03.645 Now it's, let's, let's make it better. 00:49:04.200 --> 00:49:04.800 Track 1: it's 00:49:04.995 --> 00:49:05.145 Quobix: the gas. 00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:08.130 Track 1: exactly, I mean that's, I think, I think something you mentioned 00:49:08.130 --> 00:49:09.150 when I saw you talk was like. 00:49:09.555 --> 00:49:13.755 If people, if people start paying and you can afford to bring somebody on, then 00:49:13.755 --> 00:49:16.785 that's, that's something that you know, you'd like to do and start to expand it. 00:49:16.785 --> 00:49:18.525 And that, that I think is really interesting. 00:49:18.525 --> 00:49:22.235 Like my, my background when I'm not messing with startups it 00:49:22.240 --> 00:49:23.555 is mostly bootstrapped, right? 00:49:23.555 --> 00:49:26.075 Like I, yeah, I, I work for WeWork, definitely not a startup. 00:49:26.075 --> 00:49:28.325 They like to pretend they are and they have the ping pong tables, but 00:49:28.565 --> 00:49:30.155 obviously a massive corporation. 00:49:30.375 --> 00:49:32.655 But before that, loads of loads of bootstrap companies and, 00:49:32.655 --> 00:49:33.645 and small startups and stuff. 00:49:33.705 --> 00:49:34.895 And yeah, it's. 00:49:35.390 --> 00:49:39.950 It's really cool to see you go in the bootstrapped approach and, and 00:49:39.950 --> 00:49:45.470 look into grow, but also starting off still with so much open source. 00:49:45.475 --> 00:49:49.340 Because the balance for most of these tooling companies is if you make 00:49:49.345 --> 00:49:52.490 everything so that people have to pay you a thousand pounds a month just to 00:49:52.490 --> 00:49:55.520 start using it, you have a really hard time getting people to start using it. 00:49:55.550 --> 00:50:00.170 'cause it's, it's 100% like enterprise sales, team driven and you've gotta 00:50:00.170 --> 00:50:03.410 get those big enterprise contracts and you've gotta have a lot of functionality. 00:50:03.410 --> 00:50:04.550 So it's a massive chicken and egg. 00:50:04.830 --> 00:50:08.100 But then if you have open source, you get a lot of developers using it and 00:50:08.100 --> 00:50:09.600 some of them might start paying for it. 00:50:09.600 --> 00:50:12.950 So stoplight's approach was, we've got, you know I can't really put 00:50:12.950 --> 00:50:17.540 numbers on it, I I, but it felt like kind of 20, 25% of our effort 00:50:17.540 --> 00:50:19.430 would be like entirely open source. 00:50:19.430 --> 00:50:22.700 Like, you know, issues that only really affect the open source projects or are 00:50:22.700 --> 00:50:24.770 primarily asked for by open source. 00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:27.770 And so you're kinda like making that stuff out there in the open 00:50:27.770 --> 00:50:30.740 that people can use, but then it's also powering your paid products. 00:50:30.740 --> 00:50:32.030 And not only does that mean that. 00:50:32.259 --> 00:50:34.690 You know, some people might be contributing bugs that then 00:50:34.690 --> 00:50:37.660 improve the experience for your paid users, which is cool. 00:50:37.939 --> 00:50:43.069 But you are also like getting people hooked on the free stuff and then not, 00:50:43.069 --> 00:50:45.829 you know, then you glue it together for them and that that brings them in. 00:50:46.099 --> 00:50:52.189 So it is really interesting to see a one man army kind of just go, well, I'll just 00:50:52.189 --> 00:50:54.709 start off with open source and bloody everything and figure it out later. 00:50:54.740 --> 00:50:57.589 Like, I really kind of just like the, it's, it's bold. 00:50:57.679 --> 00:50:58.519 It's a bold choice. 00:50:58.924 --> 00:50:59.750 But it seems to be working. 00:50:59.915 --> 00:51:00.754 Quobix: I appreciate that. 00:51:00.814 --> 00:51:04.174 Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's going in the right direction. 00:51:04.174 --> 00:51:05.194 That, that's for sure. 00:51:05.254 --> 00:51:07.564 For now, you know, anything, can anything come along and derail 00:51:07.624 --> 00:51:11.714 anything But it, the, the hunger's there, the, the audience is there. 00:51:11.714 --> 00:51:13.784 The interest in Open API is growing. 00:51:13.844 --> 00:51:17.914 It seems there's a friend of mine who, he mentioned, he calls it like 00:51:17.914 --> 00:51:19.354 an evergreen, it's an evergreen 00:51:19.354 --> 00:51:19.804 field. 00:51:19.804 --> 00:51:24.154 You know, in 2016, I remember, you know, there was, we were coming 00:51:24.334 --> 00:51:27.004 off the Ramel versus swagger wars. 00:51:27.594 --> 00:51:30.384 And you know, the conversation was like, what, we need to invest 00:51:30.384 --> 00:51:31.524 in this, this is important. 00:51:31.524 --> 00:51:32.604 We should care about this. 00:51:32.904 --> 00:51:35.419 So even then, you know, the same conversations are happening. 00:51:36.324 --> 00:51:39.564 We really haven't made huge amounts of progress towards 00:51:39.744 --> 00:51:42.474 actually getting this sold, you know, at at, at the company level. 00:51:42.474 --> 00:51:44.664 There's lots of individual companies doing this really well, 00:51:44.874 --> 00:51:49.254 but large enterprises are still mostly absolutely terrible at this. 00:51:49.554 --> 00:51:51.684 So it's, there's this field where there is evergreen. 00:51:51.684 --> 00:51:56.934 There's always a need to improve here, and my opinion is the open API is like it. 00:51:58.614 --> 00:52:01.854 It is the key to rest, like is if, just, just to say that we, if we're 00:52:01.854 --> 00:52:05.784 gonna do rest, there's open API Sure there's other DSLs out there in other 00:52:05.789 --> 00:52:09.234 languages, but it's, it's the one that everyone, every company has settled on. 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:11.274 I, I don't see anyone talking about any of the 00:52:11.329 --> 00:52:11.819 Track 1: exactly. 00:52:12.089 --> 00:52:13.404 Doesn't need to like. 00:52:13.899 --> 00:52:15.579 We don't necessarily need to think it's the best. 00:52:15.579 --> 00:52:16.689 It's the one that stuck 00:52:17.364 --> 00:52:17.694 Quobix: Yeah. 00:52:17.694 --> 00:52:18.714 It's VHS, right? 00:52:18.714 --> 00:52:18.774 It 00:52:18.914 --> 00:52:19.204 Track 1: Yeah. 00:52:19.704 --> 00:52:19.974 Quobix: tape. 00:52:19.974 --> 00:52:20.934 It's, it just, we, 00:52:20.979 --> 00:52:22.629 Track 1: Laser discs were cool. 00:52:22.879 --> 00:52:25.159 You could use them as giant dangerous Frisbees as well. 00:52:25.389 --> 00:52:30.189 Yeah, I mean the last the last I think two podcasts we've done, we, we had Daryl 00:52:30.194 --> 00:52:32.529 Miller and Vincent whose surname I forgot. 00:52:32.529 --> 00:52:33.069 I'm sorry. 00:52:33.279 --> 00:52:35.649 I, I, I got really cocky that I knew everyone's names and 00:52:35.654 --> 00:52:36.729 then, and then went for it. 00:52:36.734 --> 00:52:38.249 But but Lorna Mitchell as well. 00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:40.529 And we were talking about moonwalk a little bit, like yeah, there's, 00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:41.969 there's a V four open, API coming. 00:52:43.059 --> 00:52:46.809 And I do want to dig in more to see how that is looking. 00:52:46.839 --> 00:52:49.929 'cause I'm, you know, that's gonna be a big change for a lot of 00:52:49.929 --> 00:52:52.599 tooling developers and it's, it's rough to see like this massive. 00:52:52.919 --> 00:52:55.409 Massive improvement in tools happening recently. 00:52:55.409 --> 00:53:00.269 Like I set up open APA duct tools because everything, everything was kind of shy, 00:53:00.299 --> 00:53:02.399 like a lot of the open source space was. 00:53:02.654 --> 00:53:05.459 We, we were all like, they were all really small tools and everything 00:53:05.459 --> 00:53:09.369 was like you know, little, little dodgy projects with like three stars. 00:53:09.369 --> 00:53:13.029 And it was all, we'd all, we were all really just a young ecosystem 00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:17.559 and everything was coming off of like swagger two and getting ditched 00:53:17.739 --> 00:53:20.889 and starting over and in open API three 'cause it was so different. 00:53:21.194 --> 00:53:25.424 And, and it just felt like at that time, so much of the cool flashy works 00:53:25.424 --> 00:53:28.934 really well, looks really nice, has good marketing, is really battle tested. 00:53:28.934 --> 00:53:30.014 So much of the good stuff. 00:53:30.104 --> 00:53:32.144 All of that effort was just going into different communities. 00:53:32.294 --> 00:53:35.144 It was all going into GraphQL and they were making cool stuff and 00:53:35.144 --> 00:53:36.734 they were like, screw, screw, rest. 00:53:36.794 --> 00:53:37.814 The shiny stuff's over here. 00:53:37.814 --> 00:53:39.914 I was like, you could make, you could do all of that over here. 00:53:39.914 --> 00:53:41.294 You've just chosen to do it over there. 00:53:41.294 --> 00:53:42.644 And now we're kind of stuck with nothing. 00:53:43.034 --> 00:53:45.799 But over the last couple of years, like the, the tooling has, has 00:53:45.804 --> 00:53:47.294 grown up so much that I like. 00:53:47.554 --> 00:53:50.014 I have absolutely no envy for those folks over there. 00:53:50.014 --> 00:53:52.084 And people are starting to come back and, you know, the hype 00:53:52.084 --> 00:53:53.914 cycle on GraphQL is calming down. 00:53:54.099 --> 00:53:57.544 And, and, and the ma the tooling here is maturing to a really good spot. 00:53:57.544 --> 00:54:02.674 So I love to see the competition in, in the different spaces and verticals 00:54:02.854 --> 00:54:04.444 happening to push everyone forwards. 00:54:04.444 --> 00:54:07.624 And the focus on, on just like good looking websites and good looking 00:54:07.624 --> 00:54:10.264 tools and good looking simple things that plug and play together. 00:54:10.624 --> 00:54:12.844 So, yeah, I'm really excited to, to see where it goes. 00:54:12.844 --> 00:54:18.674 And I just, I hope that the open a PV four isn't a, a big drop kick between 00:54:18.674 --> 00:54:22.484 the legs of the progress that we've, we've all been making on that front. 00:54:22.594 --> 00:54:24.274 So remains, remains to be seen. 00:54:24.784 --> 00:54:26.674 Quobix: It's quite as, it's quite as significant. 00:54:26.674 --> 00:54:29.524 W So the moonwalks, from what I've seen from the early earliest 00:54:29.584 --> 00:54:33.484 specifications, it's, it is gonna, it will be a nuclear bomb being 00:54:33.484 --> 00:54:36.964 dropped on, on the deaf community, particularly with the existing tools. 00:54:36.994 --> 00:54:40.174 It's, there's lots of Jason Schema support, which is great. 00:54:40.764 --> 00:54:41.064 Yeah. 00:54:41.094 --> 00:54:41.724 But yeah. 00:54:42.829 --> 00:54:43.699 It will take some time. 00:54:43.704 --> 00:54:48.439 I don't, I don't even know how close we are to, you know, full adoption of 3.1, 00:54:48.439 --> 00:54:53.909 yet there's still, you know, a huge amount of 3.0 spec still being created today. 00:54:54.529 --> 00:54:57.559 But anyway, yeah, it's fun to see where it goes and I'm glad that it's moving. 00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:00.439 You know, it's, it's the fact that we've got the workflow specification 00:55:00.444 --> 00:55:04.169 that's almost there, that's, that's really big overlays as well 00:55:04.169 --> 00:55:05.609 is an interesting thing that's 00:55:05.669 --> 00:55:06.779 not quite there yet. 00:55:07.059 --> 00:55:09.699 But like companies like speakeasy, they've already gone ahead and, you know. 00:55:09.699 --> 00:55:13.139 Adopted some of the, like lib open API, they've already built their own kind of 00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:15.109 extensions for it to support overlay. 00:55:15.139 --> 00:55:17.959 I think so anyway, I, I'm guessing they support overlays 00:55:17.959 --> 00:55:20.179 and they use lib open api, so I'm guessing they've done that, but 00:55:20.209 --> 00:55:20.749 Track 1: Perfect. 00:55:20.779 --> 00:55:21.439 Yes. 00:55:21.749 --> 00:55:21.899 No. 00:55:21.899 --> 00:55:22.949 I was playing around with the speakeasy. 00:55:22.949 --> 00:55:24.419 Implementation is pretty, it's pretty good. 00:55:24.609 --> 00:55:28.359 Yeah, so there's loads of cool stuff coming in open API four and the kind 00:55:28.359 --> 00:55:32.319 of open API connected ecosystem with these working groups, and we've talked 00:55:32.319 --> 00:55:33.759 about that in previous episodes. 00:55:33.879 --> 00:55:36.039 I'll have to talk about that more in future ones 'cause. 00:55:36.274 --> 00:55:37.714 This is getting close to being. 00:55:37.864 --> 00:55:39.274 Well, this is, we did it. 00:55:39.274 --> 00:55:40.144 It's a podcast. 00:55:40.314 --> 00:55:43.254 Thank you so much for coming and talking about all this stuff. 00:55:43.254 --> 00:55:45.864 We, we could have gone for like two hours, but we'll, we'll, we'll 00:55:45.864 --> 00:55:49.764 make life easier for the editor and, and, and get outta here, but 00:55:49.979 --> 00:55:50.879 Quobix: Thank you so much. 00:55:51.504 --> 00:55:52.194 Track 1: pleasure having you. 00:55:52.374 --> 00:55:52.764 Cheers. 00:55:53.219 --> 00:55:53.309 Quobix: it. 00:55:53.339 --> 00:55:53.864 Cheers to the chat. 00:55:54.124 --> 00:55:54.344 Bye.