00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:20,760 [Bill]
[upbeat music] Welcome to our continuing conversation for a wild and changing world, what we call The Wild Idea podcast. My name is Bill Hodges, and along with my friend and colleague Anders Reynolds, we are fostering important conversations about how humans and wild nature coexist in the modern world. It is a very, 

00:00:21,820 --> 00:00:41,980 [Bill]
very special episode for us today as we get to visit with a friend, someone at the helm of an organization deep in our own DNA. Caitlin Deverona is the executive director of Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards, or SAWS, as they say. And Anders, I think it's safe to say we're both pretty excited for this journey about SAWS today. 

00:00:41,980 --> 00:00:42,740 [Anders]
Oh, hi, Bill. 

00:00:43,800 --> 00:01:11,080 [Anders]
Yeah, Stewardship Month continues on The Wild Idea. We're having some really great conversations with stewards of lands and waters across the United States. Um, but as special as they all are, I think this one, if I could speak for you, is probably gonna be the most meaningful for me and for you because SAWS is, is the origin of our, uh, our friendship, for one. 

00:01:11,080 --> 00:02:00,660 [Bill]
It is. I... And you know, as folks will hear, you know, we were both involved in this organization intimately for quite a while. It's where we met. Well, technically we met on a wilderness campaign. Uh, but something to sort of brag about you for a minute is you were a DC-based advocate for land protections who didn't pause for a second when you saw that one thing that was critical is that we continue to show up in communities after we're successful with the legislative side of it. And I'll never forget you saying, "Hey, I wanna come on one of these SAWS volunteer trips." And you did that, and you joined us in the Linville Gorge Wilderness. I'll for- I'll never forget that weekend and, um, I think it's pretty cool that we get to talk about it with the current vibrant leadership of an organization that means so much to us. 

00:02:00,720 --> 00:03:06,340 [Anders]
I'm really, really excited about this. I, I was on the board sort of bridging the time between your leadership at SAWS and Caitlin's leadership at SAWS, and I can say, and I, I wanna say this to her too, you know, y- you guys led in very different ways, but you also have some really great similarities, um, your passion, your commitment to your staff, um, your commitment to the resource. So this episode could devolve really quickly into a love fest, but i- in this case, I think it's warranted. All three of us love this organization. We know it intimately, and I can't wait to share with listeners, um, more about SAWS. But Bill, before we dig in, I do have an idea for a bonus episode that I haven't floated by you yet. Um, but someone reminded me recently that I played the role of the steward in Into the Woods, um, the musical, which I did in college. And I think our audience is probably interested in and deserves like a 90-minute, maybe, maybe even a multi-part series on that, like 

00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:21,740 [Anders]
the research I did for it, uh, the preparation that got me ready for the role, um, all the kudos and reviews that just came, you know, rolling in, um, once people saw me. I... Do you think, do you think people will be interested in that? 

00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:30,070 [Bill]
[laughs] It sounds so captivating. Like, I think it will be far and away our number one episode if we ever get around to, to releasing it. I will 

00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:40,930 [Bill]
discuss the irony of, for the guy who wants to make sure that we're always short, pithy, we keep these episode concise, that you're willing to go 90 minutes if the episode's all about you. 

00:03:40,930 --> 00:03:49,420 [Anders]
Well, that's as concise as this story could be. I had three or four lines in that musical, and we really need to break them all down, I think. 

00:03:49,420 --> 00:03:49,640 [Bill]
[laughs] 

00:03:51,040 --> 00:04:23,380 [Bill]
I can't wait for that episode, but right now I can't wait to get to this conversation [laughs] with Caitlin Deverona. Caitlin, just a rock star, and we are so excited to have her join us. So Caitlin, welcome to The Wild Idea podcast, what I hope will feel like a classic SAWS campfire conversation. We have all kinds of time to talk about Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards, but before we dive into that, I wanna ask you about the role that time spent in the Spring Mountains of Southern Nevada played in your wildlands journey. 

00:04:23,380 --> 00:06:08,099 [Kaitlin]
Absolutely. It is the, the start of my public lands and outdoor journey right there in the Spring Mountains. I... You know, throughout my whole life, I just wasn't an outdoor kid. We never went hiking. We never went camping. The only time I ever spent outdoors was on a ball field or on a soccer field, uh, so very manicured places. And I don't even know what came over me, but I was in undergrad. Uh, I was at a career fair still trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I was talking to all these people, and gosh, they were just so, [laughs] so boring. And but w- on my way out as I, uh, I happened to talk to these two women who were holding, you know, their shovels, and they had their Carhartt pants, and, and they were just so interesting. I was kinda like, "What, what do you guys do?" And they had these huge poster of the Spring Mountains in the background, and they told me about trail crew. And so I was introduced to public lands through very remote spaces in Nevada. Uh, I- in a space like, uh, Las Vegas. It's right outside of Las Vegas where people also might not be connecting to the outdoors as much. I was able to fall in love with some of the most remote, most beautiful wilderness areas in the Spring Mountains. They have bristlecone pine trees. You, you know, you can see as far as the eye can see, um, these vast landscapes. And working alongside a, a trail crew, these folks who you're, you're living with, you're eating with, you're sleeping with, and then you're working your butt off out there, um, to put in a retaining wall or to, to clear a trail. And so that kind of work, um, just the camaraderie, uh, and the adventure really led me com- to completely change, um, the trajectory of my career and go down this, you know, conservation natural resource career, um, from that moment on really

00:06:09,652 --> 00:06:40,772 [Anders]
You know, so many conservation journeys do start on the trail crew. I mean, here, here in Montana, like if you meet somebody in conservation there's a better than 50/50 chance that they spent time on the Montana Conservation Corps on a trail crew somewhere. But your journey was also informed by, let's call it the technical side of wilderness stewardship, digging into data and collecting data and creating narratives that define what makes a place wild. How did that experience sort of add to the clay that is your career? 

00:06:40,772 --> 00:06:47,662 [Kaitlin]
So after I worked on a variety of trail crews, just like you said, and field crews, I kind of had 

00:06:49,272 --> 00:08:52,372 [Kaitlin]
th- um, this idea to go back to grad school, go back to do more school to decide if I wanted to do, um, the academia route and study, um, you know, in the, the academia sphere, maybe teach, or if I wanted to go down the practitioner route and, and do, you know, some of the actual, you know, managing or field work. And so in, in grad school, you know, there's a lot of technical writing and data processing that we were doing. Um, so when I got out of grad school, you know, the first job I got out of school was, um, with the Park Service and then, uh, later with SAWS. But we were working on, uh, wilderness character monitoring. And so within this hu- this framework that all four, uh, agencies who, land management agencies that manage wilderness are using was to, you know, write these big baseline foundational documents about a particular wilderness area, um, and, and look at different data, um, that we could be collecting to monitor over time if how well we are, um, managing and stewarding these wilderness and wild places. So things like air quality. I mean, we've been collecting air quality for, for decades now, um, water quality in these spaces. And so we can look at the trends over time to see, like how well is that particular resource, um, um, being, being stewarded over time. Uh, we can look at non-native invasive species. We can look at, um, you know, developments in wilderness or, um, helicopter landings in wilderness, or the number of, of trails or social trails in wilderness. Um, and how many, how much trammeling is going on. So there was a variety of ways that we could collect hard data and look at and, you know, c- compile it all for a manager to look at and they can make a decision, you know, is it worth trammeling this one time in this space so that we could keep this area more natural for, you know, the next t- two decades? Uh, decisions like that. So being able to hand land managers data to make informed decisions was something that felt really meaningful for me, especially out of grad school where I was able to kinda use some of that technical writing that I'd been working on and perfecting, and then help, uh, make a meaningful impact to the land managers, uh, out here in the east. 

00:08:53,532 --> 00:09:07,742 [Anders]
Caitlin, what a sight for sore eyes. It's so good to see you again. It's so good to hear you talking through the technical aspects of wilderness stewardship again. It's reminding me so much of our time together, and it's so good to see you again. 

00:09:07,742 --> 00:09:09,781 [Kaitlin]
It's so good to see you. [laughs] 

00:09:09,781 --> 00:10:06,232 [Anders]
Thanks. I, um, I don't wanna toot my own horn here, but I've never let that stop me from tooting it. Um, but when Bill left SAWS, let's say it was under like a, a cloud of controversy. That's not true, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Um, the burden fell to me and to the rest of the board to replace him, and we were lucky to have a board member willing to step in immediately as an interim leader, and I'm talking here about Meryl Harrell, our friend who Bill and I will be talking to next week. But eventually the official search, uh, led to you, a bigger, better, bolder leader than Bill ever considered being. Um, and I want you to take us back to that time, to the beginning, uh, of your time as the leader of SAWS. What were your immediate concerns? What was your vision? What was your theory of change? How did you approach the work? 

00:10:06,232 --> 00:13:10,449 [Kaitlin]
Oh, I remember that time really well. I think I had kind of your maybe classic female approach to a, a, a big new opportunity where I was like l- you know, interested in the opportunity to become an executive director, but looking at the, all of the qualifications and it was like, oh, you know, maybe I have a couple, but I don't have all of these, so I, I'm not qualified. Um, but I was still really eager for the opportunity and, and through some really inspiring conversations with others, um, got the courage to go ahead and put my name in the hat and which I am incredibly continually grateful for. And, um, just so remarkable to me and so grateful for the opportunity to get to lead such a wonderful organization that I care very much about. Um, the reason I think I've been able to hopefully continue to move the ball forward is that basically from that, that time I told you a little bit about when I was on my first trail crew and had this completely transformational experience in the outdoors where just like, this is what I wanna do, this is what matters above so much else that's going on in this world. Now I have this opportunity, you know, it was like, uh, 15 years later, to continue to provide that opportunity to others, uh, and continue to connect people and inspire them to the outdoors that are so profound and so meaningful in our lives. I get to kinda give that back to my community or the next generation of conservation leaders, which feels incredibly good. And some of the vision that I had, you know, I remember, um, one of my first... It was like a board retreat, um, which was probably right after the, um, you know, I was selected for the position. I think I had a baby, um, on me for the board retreat, and I remember kinda talking about one of the things I really wanted to be able to do with SAWS is to invest a little bit more into the folks that are coming through our program. And so that maybe we didn't have to be, um, you know, a, a conservation corps per se where f- we're-We're able to get folks who are, are necessarily brand new, but we can take them and develop them further, and this could be more of like a stepping up one level. Not only can you get inspired and connected to work in the outdoors, but we can give you the, the s- skillsets that you need to either continue your career here in SAWS or continue your career with another agency. I think what happens a lot, and from experience, folks bounce around from Conservation Corps to Conservation Corps 'cause they love it so much, um, but it usually doesn't pay very well, and it usually doesn't come with benefits. And so one of the things I had stood up is, you know, I wanna be able to have that next level crew, like maybe a pro crew that is able to... You know, maybe you started a seasonal crew, but now you can be on this pro crew that might be year-round, and maybe you have access to benefits. And then in that way, we can be a stepping stone into more, uh, career, uh, professionals, um, wilderness professionals, uh, Conservation Corps careers, um, that I think is really needed in our field. 

00:13:10,449 --> 00:14:24,440 [Anders]
I'm so happy to be on here with both you and Bill. I served on the SAWS board under both of you, and you have different leadership styles, that's true, but I, I think you were both the right person for the right time in the life cycle of SAWS, right? I think every sort of nonprofit conservation group has a life cycle, and I think you guys were the perfect leader for the perfect time. I will say, just building on your answer, I... One thing I've, I have valued about both of you, and now I'm gonna toot y'all's horns, is that y'all, y'all were both so invested in the growth of the people, um, working for the organization. You really wanted to see them grow as professionals and as people, and often went the extra mile, whether it was salary, benefits, personal time, uh, professional development, whatever. So I guess now that I'm talking about both of you, I've got a question for both of you, um, because I think we should rewind back a little bit further for our listeners, uh, back before, um, I was in the picture. You know, for listeners who are new to SAWS, could the two of you walk us through the origin story? Where did the organization come from? What problem was it built to solve? And how has it evolved over the years into what it is today? What problems is it solving today? 

00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,930 [Bill]
Well, I guess I'll [laughs] I'll start since I was there at the beginning. Um, you know, the- 

00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:32,390 [Kaitlin]
Who could tell it better? No one. [laughs] 

00:14:32,390 --> 00:16:01,710 [Bill]
[laughs] You know, it, it, it, its origins are, are in this idea that public lands can make a difference in people's lives. Um, it had made a difference in my life, uh, from the time I was 10 years old. Um, I fell in love with the Pisgah National Forest, Linville Gorge Wilderness. Um, and I had gone off and done an entirely different career. I was in college sports and broadcasting space for 25 years, and found my way back to this, uh, as a volunteer for a wilderness campaign that, Anders, you and I got to meet on later. But Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards, or, or SAWS, as you'll keep hearing us referring to it as, was an outgrowth of that wilderness campaign. Um, my job first as a volunteer and eventually as a contractor was to deal with the only real pushback for this bill that was gonna protect 20,000 acres of the Cherokee National Forest was, oddly enough, coming from the trail stewardship community. Uh, the- mostly in the East, that is mostly made up of local trail clubs full of older retired folks who would give up a day or two a week to come out and help keep their local trails open. And those groups were concerned about, um, what they perceived as the burden of having to work with traditional tools in wilderness. They were gonna lose their chainsaws. They were gonna lose their weed eaters. Um, those who have spent any time in the Southeast know if you don't touch a trail for a couple years in the Southeast, it will go away, [laughs] um, because vegetation grows very rapidly. Um, and, and in that journey 

00:16:02,980 --> 00:16:15,689 [Bill]
to respond to that concern from that community of trail crew members, um, we convened what we called the Wilderness Trail Summit at Montreat College in Western North Carolina, um, in July of 2010. 

00:16:16,940 --> 00:18:02,000 [Bill]
And, um, at that summit, where about 40 different trail clubs from across the Southern Appalachians showed up, I floated the idea of what if there was an organization. 'Cause the other thing that I was hearing from these trail clubs were, were concerned about the capacity to keep these trails open in wilderness areas and where are all the young people. Uh, and so I presented this idea of what if there was an organization who was rooted in being there forever for these places, for these landscapes, uh, committing to these places, and, and there's a whole lot more detail here. Certain clubs were pretty rooted in their opposition. But, uh, but also that we were gonna be rooted in connecting a younger and specifically more diverse generation to working on public lands, and so that's kind of the origin story. I, I, I, I sat down at my desk November 1st of 2010, and that was what I would call the first day of SAWS, and said, "Okay, what is this thing gonna be?" Uh, and without boring people too much, there was a part of that journey in which The Wilderness Society stepped forward and offered some funding and made me a s- a Wilderness Society employee, and that was a great part of the journey and got us rolling. Uh, but yeah, those, those early years, 2011, 2012, 2013, those first few field years were a, were a true learning experience for a guy who had spent most of his time in a coat and tie, and now all of a sudden I'm trying to, uh, you know, inform a new generation of land stewards. Uh, and, uh, uh, into those few years, uh, walks Caitlin, and, uh, what a, a wonderful gift for the organization, first as a, as a wilderness sort of ranger and, and, uh, specialist working on all the stuff she talked about, that baseline. But, uh, it just became a real, um, 

00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:51,044 [Bill]
vibrant, uh, collection of people who were committed to the idea. They weren't just there because they needed a summer. Some were, but a lot of them were there because they likeThey love the resource. They love the idea of places that we allow to be self-willed, these wilderness places. And so, um, yeah, I think, you know, I think I'll kind of stop there, and Caitlin can kind of pick it up from there. But, you know, that was, that was my journey from 2010 to, to the time at which I left, which was in 2019 when I decided I was concerned about, um, you know, founder syndrome, which I think is a real thing. Um, SAWS was pretty synonymous with me at the time, and I think it was time for it to not be so connected to one individual, and, and, uh, I stepped away and, and, uh, Caitlin can kind of pick up the story from there. 

00:18:51,044 --> 00:19:21,204 [Kaitlin]
Sure, thanks. I often think about how difficult it would be, uh, to be in your shoes and to start a nonprofit or to start a program, and f- just from scratch. It just seems incredibly difficult, so very grateful for all that hard work you put in to give us a really strong foundation, um, to grow from. And, oh, God, you'll have to say a few more words too about, um, the farm bill that ended up passing in, uh, 2018. Can you share a touch of that? 'Cause I always tell the full circle, like- 

00:19:21,204 --> 00:19:21,294 [Bill]
Yeah 

00:19:21,294 --> 00:19:25,964 [Kaitlin]
... you know, you were working towards it, and then... T- tell us really quick. 

00:19:25,964 --> 00:20:04,463 [Bill]
Yeah. So, you know, I mentioned this wilderness bill that, that Anders and I had the chance to work on, uh, the Tennessee Wilderness Act. Again, the idea was to protect 20,000 acres of the Cherokee National Forest. It created a new wilderness area called the Upper Bald River Wilderness. It expanded five others, uh, both in Northeast and Southeast Tennessee. Um, but that opposition to the bill that came from the trail community slowly started to turn into support. Um, early on, we've, you know, we- uh, early leaders of the campaign had found a real champion on the Hill in Senator Lamar Alexander, who brought along Senator Bob Corker with him. 

00:20:05,844 --> 00:20:53,024 [Bill]
One of the things we needed was support on the House side, and ultimately we found that in, uh, in, in Congressman Phil Roe, who was the congressman from Tennessee's 1st district, Northeast Tennessee at the time. And, uh, Phil had said that he would support our bill if we won the specific support of an Appalachian Trail maintaining club called the Tennessee Eastman Hiking and Canoe Club. Shout out to Joe DeLoach and others. Um, but eventually when that club switched from opposing the bill to supporting the bill, Phil Roe, man of his word, supported that. Um, but that didn't mean we were done, right, Anders? So there was like... I think we had five introductions. We had to go through five Congress sessions, uh, for this bill. Uh, and I will say this is where I'll toot Anders' horn a little bit. 

00:20:54,484 --> 00:21:56,504 [Bill]
You know, we had done a lot of the ground game there in East Tennessee to, to build support, to change opposition to support, but you still have to have that insider in DC who knows where the gears turn and how the gears turn. Uh, and Anders exhausted all the different gears. I think at one time we looked at the National Defense Authorization Act as a ve- vehicle in which our bill would move. Um, but ultimately, I'm gonna hand it over to Anders now for a minute. Ultimately, it was the farm bill in 2018. He's shaking his head. He doesn't wanna take this one, but, like, after all of that groundswell of support, of which SAWS played a critical role. So this is my reminder to everybody, stewardship is advocacy in a different form. It's the other side of the same coin. And so all that commitment to stewarding the ground, and SAWS doesn't, you know, speak for Caitlin, it doesn't have an advocacy mission, but it does in the fact that it creates people who love public lands and are connected to public lands. But yeah, ultimately, that bill ends up in the farm bill. Anders, can you tell a little bit about that part of the story? 

00:21:56,504 --> 00:23:04,044 [Anders]
Well, I wanna get back to Caitlin as, as quickly as possible. So all I'll say is, you know, our strategy had relied for a long time on a Senate-only strategy, and when we finally decided maybe a House companion would help us, and, and SAWS did the great work of bringing along Congressman Phil Roe, um, things really started to move. And Bill, the moment I really remember is I think you had spent a day on the Hill walking around in a suit and tie, um, wearing out your, your shoe leather, and had just gotten back to your hotel, and I think started to relax when I called you and said, "Nah, we're not done. You gotta put the tie back on, gotta throw the shoes back on. You gotta come back up, talk to Phil Roe, and tell him that the House and Senate Conference Committee on the farm bill needs a letter from him saying he supports this, and that's all it's gonna take. We're golden. This will be the last step." And I think you, you, you sighed pretty hard, but then you got up and you went to the Hill, you got the letter, the language was inserted into the farm bill, and the good guys won. 

00:23:04,044 --> 00:23:38,564 [Bill]
They did. [laughs] I don't think I sighed. I think I resisted pretty aggressively. Uh, it was a classic DC 95 degree, 90% humidity kinda day. I had probably sweated through my dress shirt more than a couple times already that day. But I, uh, I took your guidance, Anders, and, uh, and I went back to the Hill. We got that letter signed, and the rest is history. In December of 2018, the Tennessee Wilderness Act became law as a part of the farm bill. And, uh, you know, it's kinda funny that I think that was part of the start of the transition, Caitlin, for, for me stepping away because that was sort of a, um, 

00:23:39,844 --> 00:24:06,744 [Bill]
not a completion of the, of my commitment to what SAWS would become, but it was a completion of the commitment to getting the Tennessee Wilderness Bill done. I had had my time at the helm of SAWS and, and, uh, as Anders mentioned, there was a interlude between you and I, which was Meryl. And, um, but yeah, that's, uh, that's sort of... I mean, sorry, folks, that's a big deep dive, but this is, this is an episode that's about SAWS, so I thought we could fill in that piece. So Caitlin, thanks for indulging me. 

00:24:06,744 --> 00:26:08,068 [Kaitlin]
Yes. I just, it makes me so happy to tell that kinda it's full circle moment at SAWS that I think is so important to the origin story. And, you know, youHad some folks who were a little bit against, um, you know, additional wilderness designation or expansion there in Tennessee. And by showing up for the community and for the wilderness, you know, day after day, week after week, y- for 10 years you were able to, you know, convince the community like, "Hey, we're here to stay, we're here to show up, and we're here to support these, um, backcountry remote areas," and a- and complete, you know, at least part of this, uh, mission and story. But I wanted to share even this morning, um, Bill, I was writing thank you cards to some of those folks who, uh, individual folks who were originally against, um, against that, uh, d- additional designation are continued, uh, you know, annual supporters of SAWS and, and continue to be part of the story. And, and another, uh, you know, that legacy kind of lives on by showing up for the community. I wanted to share, uh, you know, an additional story that we just recently, uh, went through here in Helene. You know, one of the reasons folks weren't interested in more wilderness is 'cause it's ver- it can be difficult to get to, it can be difficult to steward, you know? And if, um, volunteers are largely, uh, picking up the slack and doing a lot of the stewardship work, it can be hard to get into the backcountry to do, you know, long meaningful work, uh, when you have to come out that same day. And so if you, you know, SAWS has these crews who can go backcountry for eight days, um, you know, building off, um, that origin story, we had, you know, Helene came through the area and, you know, it did a lot of damage in a lot of places. Uh, but one particular place was, uh, on the Appalachian Trail in those same remote areas of Tennessee that we've been talking about here. And, um, it's, it's so funny because even though, um, I think we do incredible work, uh, year after year, show up strong, um, in the f- in the face of that much disaster where, you know, entire forests are just kinda pick up sticks on the ground and, and laying down, 

00:26:09,108 --> 00:28:25,628 [Kaitlin]
it... Seeing thousands of trees down like that still, um, folks had that same reaction that they always do with wilderness a- and disasters, which is like, "Oh, this couldn't, this could never be cleaned by, um, you know, traditional tools. Um, it is impossible to do with cross-cut saws. Um, you know, there's no way, it's unsafe, it can't be done." That was the initial reaction. It, it is al- it's almost always like that. Um, but once we caught wind of, you know, there was maybe some momentum trying to see if we could get, you know, chainsaws back there, and, and once we caught wind of it, it was kinda like, "Raise my hand. Can we have a shot here so we can go out and put some crews on the ground?" Um, and, and then they were like, "Yeah, let's do it." So we had in one week's notice, um, you guys, we, i- in, in February, [laughs] the freezing cold temperatures, we put a pro crew on the ground with our, you know, our managers and our trainers, folks who've been in the SAWS orbit for many, many years, who cross-cut saw seed Sawyers, right? The best of the best. We're, we put them out there in the freezing cold winter conditions, snowed first day on their, you know, four-day hitch back there. They went out to Big Laurel Branch, they went out to Pond Mountain, and they were able to clear all of those, you know, it was like 700 trees, um, in under six weeks. Um, and they did it on a week's notice, no injuries, and I think they said maybe all in all, three or four of them were technical trees, but mostly it was just the volume, right? And so, uh, three of their hitches had, had snow storms, their waters were freezing, so, so much weather that they were competing with. But it was just again, this example where SAWS showed up strong that, and we were able to show up quickly for the community to, to show again, like we are here to take care of, you know, the wilderness and wild backcountry areas. Um, we, we did it with, you know, our, the, the young staff here, and they were able to stay out for multiple days and get the work done, uh, in a meaningful, very quick way. No chainsaw needed, you know, no, no authorization needed to do anything different than what we usually do except for use the, our traditional tools, um, and the skill sets that we've been, you know, cultivating, uh, in the next generation for many, many years. So it was just a great example, and, and so, so grateful to show up for the community in that way, um, just as we'd said we would from the beginning. 

00:28:25,628 --> 00:29:25,048 [Anders]
Just astounding. I'm so glad you brought up Helene. Um, I know Bill and I wanted to ask you about that. You know, the story we just told talked about, um, stewardship as, as a tool for advocacy, but you're now talking about stewardship as a tool for recovery, and that's something I think we wanna dig into. Um, I've asked you to rewind a lot, but I'm gonna ask you to do it again. Rewind just a little bit. Um, talk to us about something a little more personal. When Hurricane Helene hit, um, you were responsible not just for that mission you just talked about, but for the people, right, um, working for you at SAWS. Walk us through those first hours and days, the m- the moment you knew that this was a serious storm. Um, what was it like trying to track everyone down, make sure everyone was okay? And then tell us about how you started to get a picture of what had actually happened and, and what the role, um, that SAWS might play in, in the recovery would be. 

00:29:25,048 --> 00:34:10,808 [Kaitlin]
Yeah. Thanks for that opportunity. Um, it was definitely a very emotional time and, uh, I hope folks, I don't know if your audience hears too much about Helene, but, uh, it was definitely an impactful, um, time for us at SAWS. Um, so, you know, that morning, uh, it was like 7:00 in the morning, I was grant writing. I'm always trying to grant write for, for SAWS and, and you know, you could just see the water going up and up all around my house. I'm kind of on this hill, and it was like, "This is, this is seeming wild." I mean, this tiny little creek that I got married on 10 years ago now looks like, [laughs] like James for some reason. And so it was just, you could tell even from, you know, looking outside that this was going to be a significant event. And then, you know, shortly after that, losing, um, water and power and, um, leaving wasn't an, an option for the first couple days. Um, you know, I'm only five minutes from the freeway, and there were hundreds of trees down on the road, right?And so we were thankfully safe. My family's safe. I have three young kids, um, and we were all together that morning, and so, um, we were safe. Um, I remember being stressed because even though I had a lot of, ah, warning about needing to go get food, I didn't have any f- very much food in my house, and, like, neighbors were bringing over packages. And the thing that really stuck with me the most is neighbors, um, immediately began to help other neighbors. It was like the community coming alive, right? Like, everyone was bringing out their chainsaws. Everyone was cutting out roads. People were leaving food, food baskets on your porch with, you know, without, no questions asked, and it was just so beautiful. Lot of crying. And, um, one thing I chose to do, um, back to saws, was I, I chose to immediately leave, which felt very painful in this time where my neighbors are out with their chainsaws. I have a chainsaw and I, you know, I had, I know how to use it well. Like, I could be out there with my chainsaw. But what immediately was so important to me was, like, my team. I need to make sure my team is okay. Um, this looks like my team isn't gonna have work in, in the forest for multiple weeks. Like, I'm thinking about having to lay people off and, and so I'm just becoming very consumed with making sure my saws family is, is safe. And so, um, it was very tearful to leave the immediate action, but I needed internet so I could try to make sure my, my team was safe. And I'm so glad in the end that I did because I spent the next, um, every single day, you know, calling every single person on staff. There was probably, like, you know, 35 at the time, so calling every single person, texting them, making sure everyone was safe. Uh, and thankfully everyone on my team was safe. We had cars flooded. We had, um, apartments flooded, basements flooded, so a lot of maybe property damage, but everyone was safe. And what I was able to do in the, in the coming, like, the next two weeks was because so much emergency funding was coming in, and thank you to everyone across the country for that, I was able to apply for grants because you could tell by talking to some Forest Service folks, you know, the forests were gonna be completely closed and it was gonna be a long time. So that meant all of our projects were stopped, and that meant all four of my crews didn't have work anymore. And so that, uh, is not what you want in the, to lose your job in the face of a major hurricane that has already taken your car and, and maybe half the things in your basement. And so I was able to apply for some really quick grants and get them in the door, um, thankful for some really expedient processing, and s- move the, the crews to doing work out in the field that was now closed to doing immediate community work. Um, so they were able to go to food drives and hand out, and hand out food to the community. They were immediately able to go to businesses in downtown Asheville and, and in Old Fort, um, to start, like, gutting, uh, businesses. And they were able to, um, deliver firewood to remote areas where people weren't able to be quickly cut out in three days, and it took multiple weeks or maybe more, and literally go walk them firewood because so much of their firewood had swept, been swept away. Um, we went to elementary schools and we were able to clear down, you know, downed trees just with our crosscuts. They were still able to do it fast. So we were able to do all of this, like, really specific targeted community work. No one lost their job. Earlier, you know, the, everyone made it to the end of their season. And so it was such a unique experience for saws to be able to show up for its community in the way that we needed it the most, um, and, and, and kind of put some of that stewardship work on hold. But, but, you know, the, the most important thing was like these people need help, like, life and safety right now. And, and to be able to fill in, um, in that space was just incredible to both serve the community, but also serve the team so that no one lost their job unexpectedly. Um, it was a wild time, um, but a very, I guess, 

00:34:11,908 --> 00:34:12,068 [Kaitlin]
ah, 

00:34:13,148 --> 00:34:15,948 [Kaitlin]
inspiring one as well. The saws team really came together. 

00:34:15,948 --> 00:34:20,028 [Bill]
We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation. 

00:34:21,348 --> 00:34:26,548 [Bill]
I'm Mingja from Las Vegas, Nevada, and you are listening to The Wild Idea. 

00:34:28,188 --> 00:34:28,728 [Bill]
So Caitlin, 

00:34:29,838 --> 00:35:09,848 [Bill]
thanks for, you know, earlier sharing that story of, of the immediate response. But I just, I just want to speak to the masterful job of steering saws literally through the eye of the storm, if you will. But can you talk about now how you've had to reimagine saws and that sort of expansion of saws to meet the moment and the work that the team, and it is a-- Maybe you could talk about just how robust that team is today and sort of you haven't shifted away from the core, but you've had to respond to this moment in time. Can you talk about what you guys look like today as it relates to responding to, uh, to the ongoing impacts from the storm? 

00:35:09,848 --> 00:36:41,827 [Kaitlin]
Yeah, absolutely. So after the initial craziness and the storm and, um, just a lot of support from a variety of community members and foundations, you know, we, we were sitting at, uh, 'cause the storm happened in October, right at the end of September, so we're sitting in wintertime, right? And so, you know, you kinda pick up this, um, this story I just recently told about, you know, coming back and, and serving the Tennessee mountain areas, um, where, you know, we were initially told as partners, "Hey, um, stand down. Do not do any work out there. You know, we're, we're immediately focused on life and safety for the moment." And then, you know, it was like folks came back full steam ahead suddenly. Uh, you know, then you started hearing like, "Oh, we need chainsaws out there. This is gonna be impossible to clear," right? And so that's when we were able to rejoin the conversation like, "Whoa, we're here. We're, we're ready to get in the backcountry, even if it's February." And so we, we did that work that I had talked about, um, some of that kind of initial maybe response to, um, Helene back out in the forest. And then, um, from there we spent many months, you know, working with the Forest Service. Uh, they, they ended up getting, um, you know, a package to, uh, some really big disaster dollars to be able to recover from this major storm that hit, you know, five different national forests in a really major way. Um, I heard one, one land recreation manager state that one of the wildernesses, you know, on his district, he would've guessed maybe lost 90% of its canopy, like that kind of crazy damage. And so, um, 

00:36:42,978 --> 00:40:27,292 [Kaitlin]
we, we were able to talk with them and, and, you know, when we were, we, w- when we were in discussions about, you know, what could this, um-[inhales] disaster work for Saws look like, we had a decision to make. So we had always been running s- these seasonal crews, um, you know, six to nine months. Uh, we had a lot of seasonal positions. We have never really run, um, field crews, uh, year-round. But kind of going back to some of the things I had wanted to provide, um, as a leader here at Saws was a, a, more investment in, um, the conservation folks that come through the door. And so rather than putting more crews on the ground, you know, like, and we could put 12 crews out there, um, I wanted to invest deeper in the crews that we were able to bring in the door. So higher pay, um, the, the health benefits, and the, you know, the long-time stability of a, of a crew job, which I think and I had been hearing for many, many years is what folks are wanting. And so we were able to put together an agreement, um, and, and really ramp up to, um, this Helene disaster response that Saws is currently undergoing, um, through this model. So right now we have about 70 employees. This is- uh, it's like more than double the amount Saws has ever seen. Um, we, we run these four, um, pro crews I call them, um, in each of the forests. And so these are year-round, um, crews that have some of the best, um, skill sets that I've ever, ever seen come through Saws, and, and we are gonna continue to provide them, um, that professional development to move on. Um, and those crews are going out eight days at a time, getting the biggest, baddest, hardest stuff in the most remote areas, um, and, and working on that project work that, that really takes m- many days to fulfill out there. Um, we have these awesome trail specialists who are kinda individually placed on these districts who can help support the rec teams on, on different districts by ... They're, they're, you know, one or two-person crews. They're working a lot on the trails, but they can also connect with visitors. So, you know, tell them this area might be closed or maybe this other place might be better or, uh, you know, if you are gonna go down there you might wanna be careful of this damage. So they can really be that public-facing interacting piece, um, that is often lacking in some of the land management agencies. Um, and then we also continue to run the seasonal crews. So we have seasonal crews that come in. We still wanna engage brand new folks in conservation. We still wanna be able to connect that new person and give them that opportunity, which is how I even got started in it, right? So we have kind of your, your, um, you know, your more green, um, seasonal crews, but they're still going out doing really meaningful Helene work. Um, and they're still going out and learning, you know, from crew leaders or lear- or working together with the pro crew for a hitch so that they can all, uh, you know, continue to learn from one another. Um, we're continuing to run, uh, the Wilderness Skills Institute, which I hope we talk about in a little bit, um, where we're able to continue to not only train our own staff about stewardship, but continue to train the community members or other volunteers or other land managers and train... Not train them, but train with them together. So we're all continuing to build that stewardship arm and, um, that skill sets and the knowledge to be the best stewards out there of our wild public lands. Um, and so right now that even though we went through a pretty traumatic, um, Helene ex- storm experience, um, we are on the other side, not only rebuilding our community, our homes, you know, our roads, our bridges, our schools. My kids' school was out of commission for an entire year. But we're also rebuilding, um, and revitalizing our public land. And so that's the, the piece where Saws is showing up strong for the community in that space. Um, and it is just a wonderful opportunity to make the trails out there the best, you know, that they have ever been. 

00:40:28,312 --> 00:41:05,571 [Bill]
I really appreciate you bringing up the Skills Institute. To me it brings together what I think is the sort of the best of Saws. Saws is about capacity and about community. And the Skills Institute, which is a-- I'll, I'll let you talk about it, but it is a partnership. It's not just a Saws thing [laughs]. And some people listening to this will laugh at that comment. It always was my favorite time of the year because you saw new faces. You saw faces you've seen for over a decade now showing up every year to build the skill set. Can you tell people what the Wilderness Skills Institute is? And I know you're just coming off of it here in the last couple weeks, kinda what the vibe was in 2026. 

00:41:05,572 --> 00:44:27,174 [Kaitlin]
Yes. We commented so much on the vibe [laughs] 'cause it was the best maybe we had seen in a long time or ever. Um, we always say, you know, WSI, the Wilderness Skills Institute, is the best two weeks of the year, and truly feel that and mean it as well. Um-And what it is is this, you know, this community... I've said community so much, but it's so- it's like definitely a value that we have here at SAWS. And, and Bill, you helped really cultivate that for us. But it's, it's this training opportunity for the community, not just for one organization, but all, you know, partnership or stewardship organizations, uh, in the Southeast or, or the wh- nation. You know, we have folks who even come as far as California, and New Mexico, and New York. And, and so this opportunity to come together, um, as land managers, as partners, and as volunteers to learn about, you know, wilderness stewardship, um, field technical skill sets that you may need to, to better steward wilderness, um, y- you know, in your backyard. And so what I think the secret sauce about WSI truly is is that it is this partnership. Um, but it is not a, uh, this training that, uh, is always coming from one organization. You know, like top-down, we, we have all the knowledge and we're gonna train you how to do it our way, but it's so much more collaborative than that, where we are lifting up... You know, sometimes volunteers, um, are, are instructors. They, they... And sometimes land managers are, are participants. And so it... Sometimes someone will come and be an instructor for eight years in a row, and the next year they'll be a participant in a different course. We offer typically about 10 courses a year, anything from, um, crosscut saw certifications. This year we had crosscut saw sharpening. We do packing. We do tool rehandling. Um, you know, trail maintenance 101 or advanced trail maintenance, stone work. And so there's just this, a variety of skills. Leave No Trace, uh, Wilderness First Aid, things you, skill sets that you need or certifications you need to be, you know, a, a, a great steward or volunteer, um, out there in the woods w- no matter your agency. And so that part is so special because, um, there's always this opportunity to learn from one another. Even folks who have been trail building or on crews for many, many years can learn something from someone else who's learned a different technique in another state. And so it's just this platform to come together and learn together. And, and the best part, I mean, that is the secret sauce, but it's also in person. And so just in this world where we're often, um, separated virtually in these boxes as we are right now, the Wilderness Skills Institute brings people together. So you are, uh, having a fire, uh, you're having dinner at, at night or, you know, you're, you're sharing a beverage i- in the parking lot, or you just have this opportunity to walk to class with someone who actually works for the Forest Service or who works for another nonprofit. And so that part has just been such a treasure from the moment that I started with SAWS, um, and beyond. And so, uh, that is alive and well. Um, this past Wilderness Skills Institute, we didn't have any incidents. Everything went so smoothly. We didn't even have any bear activity. We usually always have [laughs] some bear is ripping some person's tent apart, and this year we didn't have any of that. It barely rained, Bill. [laughs] You know, it u- usually downpours. [laughs] 

00:44:27,174 --> 00:44:27,184 [Bill]
Yeah. 

00:44:27,184 --> 00:44:36,684 [Kaitlin]
And it was just like, um, such a treat, um, from the last year where it was a little rougher than that. So yes, a special, special time. 

00:44:36,684 --> 00:45:02,794 [Bill]
It was always my favorite two weeks of the year. And a couple shout-outs that I feel like I have to put in here. So a real shout-out to Andrew Downes who, uh, is with, uh, the New River Conservancy but used to be with the Appalachian Trail Conservancy. It was in a conference room at the supervisor's office in Asheville that Andrew first floated an idea that he and I, and then Jimmy Guidry came into the mix from the Forest Service, and, and what became the Skills Institute. The fact that it didn't rain and you didn't have any flooding, 

00:45:03,924 --> 00:45:58,274 [Bill]
uh, for, for folks who don't know, the Wilderness Skills Institute is at the Cradle of Forestry, which is in Transylvania County, North Carolina, which is the wettest county, um, east of the Mississippi. And, uh, all that rain tended to fall during the two weeks [laughs] of the Wilderness Skills Institute, so I'm glad it was dry this year. It is such a magical two weeks and, and, uh, I just wanted to give that, uh, the shout-out to, to Andrew and, and to Jimmy, and so many people on the planning teams over the years that, uh, I'm just... It was, it's so fun now from afar to l- watch the photos and go, "Oh, I can only imagine what it was like to sit on a tailgate at Pink Beds and have a beer after a day of learning together." And, and, uh, I'm just so thankful that you continue to, to not just continue the tradition, but to build on that tradition and b- build it into something new is, is just really amazing. So I, I, I'm glad you guys had a really good, uh, good Skills Institute this year. 

00:46:00,554 --> 00:46:08,444 [Anders]
My biggest regret around SAWS is that I never got to attend a Wilderness Skills Institute. So sad. But maybe, but maybe there's one in my future. 

00:46:08,444 --> 00:46:11,143 [Kaitlin]
Well, there's one in your future. [laughs] 

00:46:11,143 --> 00:47:08,844 [Anders]
[laughs] Caitlin, I'm so, so grateful for you coming on today. You're just as thoughtful and as visionary as ever. It's so much fun talking to you. You guys have both brought up community, and maybe there's, there's no greater indication of the SAWS community than the fact that the three of us who have been involved in different ways and in different time have been in dialogue for a long time. We're still in dialogue today. We're still connected, and I hope we're connected for a long, long time. As we start to wrap up, I do wanna ask you one last question. I want you to, to look forward, not just through this time of, of recovery related to Hurricane Helene but, but beyond even that. When you imagine SAWS five years from now or 10 years from now, what does SAWS look like? What does this incredible team that you've been describing, um, look like on the other side of all this work? 

00:47:08,844 --> 00:47:17,764 [Kaitlin]
Yes. So big. I think what SAWS looks like in 10 years or on the other side of Helene is 

00:47:19,444 --> 00:47:42,654 [Kaitlin]
really continuing to provide an opportunity, um, that's more visible and accessible, um, to the next generation of conservation stewards, um, to plug in-To serve a- and, and be connected to the outdoors, um, in an easier way. I just think, I can't believe I was, like, 20 years old before I even knew about 

00:47:44,534 --> 00:49:06,633 [Kaitlin]
public lands or, you know... And, and I grew up in the state that has 80% public lands. [laughs] So it's just wild that I think there's so much opportunity to continue to get in front of the next generation and to young people who maybe don't have parents or the community who are able to introduce them themselves. But if we can be in more classrooms or if we can be, you know, connecting virtually if we have to, to open up more doors so that young people have an idea that they can have a career in conservation. I just spoke to a bunch of fifth graders a couple weeks ago to tell them, like, "Hey, you can work outside. You don't necessarily have to even go to college. You can, you can get a really meaningful job in, in conservation and, and come to work on a, you know, on a trail crew." And Fill Your Soul Cup is something we always talk about. Like, this is way more than a job. Like, this is friends and, and adventure and just, like, true profound meaning. And I think if I can help provide that to more individuals who maybe they're interested in national parks or state parks or, you know, how can I connect better with colleges, I think just making conservation careers more accessible, um, to more folks even outside of the southeast is, is where I would want to see SAWS continue to serve. And, and maybe in the places where folks are the least connected, I wanna be there. 

00:49:06,634 --> 00:49:11,914 [Bill]
I love that vision. I, I, and I cannot thank you enough for what you have done, 

00:49:13,194 --> 00:50:27,634 [Bill]
you know, with the baseline of SAWS and turned it into what you have today. It's so nice to also hear that you and I share in common that our fuel for doing this work is actually the development we get to do for the people that are around us. I mean, that is what feeds my soul. It's not the paycheck. It's, yes, it was important to get the wilderness bill across the finish line in 2018, but it, it's, it's really just that personal journey of helping people become what they have the potential to become and, and providing the fertile ground in which that happens. And, and Caitlin, I'm just so thankful that you and prior to you, that Meryl, you know, you talk about, you know, this idea of, of creating more career pathways. You know, Meryl and the work she did in her time running SAWS, between the two of us with The Bridge Project. There's so many great things, the Wilderness Skills Institute that has now sort of morphed into other training platforms around the country that are very similar. I wanna thank you for your leadership. I wanna thank you for taking the time to join us today. It has just been, uh, a dream to have you on and, and a dream to know that you're back there in Asheville with a solid hand on the tiller and keeping this thing going forward and developing it into the just juggernaut that you have turned it into. And I, I wanna thank you for that. 

00:50:27,634 --> 00:50:37,674 [Kaitlin]
Thank you both so much. You two are very inspiring and ha- have helped get me to where I am today, and it has just been such a pleasure to chat with you today, so thanks. 

00:50:37,674 --> 00:51:14,614 [Bill]
Boy, this has been a dream for me, folks. Coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we continue our Month of Stewards, and we talk about the Wild and Scenic River system here on my home waters with the Flathead Rivers Alliance. If you wanna stay on top of what all we have going on, you can register for our newsletter at thewildidea.com. If you want to be an active member of our community, we would love a recommendation to your friends and family. And if you wanna buy us a coffee or a stiff drink, well, you can support us with a contribution through Buy Me A Coffee, which you can find on our website. We are excited for the journey that you are all on with us, and we can't wait to see all of you on down the trail. 

00:51:14,614 --> 00:51:49,754 [Speaker 3]
The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilcheszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Springhill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com. [upbeat music]