Intro: This is for the sled dogs in the trenches. Real hockey parents, real stories. The Good and the Gong Show. No filters, no sugarcoating, no politics, just straight hockey talk, and the best guests around the barn. Welcome to the Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast.
Alright, boys. Grind them corners, chirp responsibly, and bring that savage fire.
Scott: Alright, everybody. Welcome back to episode 62 of the Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast, the unfiltered podcast for hockey parents. No politics, no sugarcoating, just real talk for hockey parents in the trenches.
Jamie: Well done.
Scott: That's what's up. What's happening? It only took like 61 episodes to get it right. What is it? Like 60% of the time it works?
Jamie: Every time. Every time.
Scott: Man. That's where I'm at.
Jamie: Such movies.
Scott: What's happening? Not much, man. I'm No? Yeah. You know, the the there's a lot of other sports with the worst travel situations than hockey.
I'm just gonna say that.
Jamie: Oh, okay. You wanna talk about what you did this weekend.
Scott: Yeah. Okay. But we'll we'll get to that in a second.
Jamie: Should we take care of some business first? Yeah. Let's do that. Alright. So let's talk about Howie's hockey and Crazy 10, the 10% discount code that we have to Crazy Hockey Dads.
Crazy Hockey Dads. Wow. What? I don't know. Jeez.
Scott: Make you nervous?
Jamie: Not at all.
Heather: Are you sure?
Jamie: What I was trying to say was the
Scott: That's a tough one.
Jamie: That's a tough one. Oh, the. No. What I was trying to say is Howie's Hockey Crazy 10, the 10% discount code for our Crazy Hockey Dads listeners.
Scott: Oh. That's what's the trunk wister.
Jamie: That's what's trunk wister.
Scott: Now I see why you got so confused. Yes.
Jamie: Yes.
Scott: That was that was tough
Jamie: on the I'm following with my mouth.
Scott: No. Yes. No. Don't.
Jamie: So anyway, for for your tape, laces, gear, candles, scissors, sweatshirts, or Stacy's sons, our goalie's favorite, the yellow no. No. Not yellow. The light blue t shirt.
Scott: Oh, man.
Jamie: Rough start. My mind's like it was a long day.
Scott: Fair. I know the feeling.
Jamie: My mind does not wanna work right now.
Scott: That's okay. It doesn't need to. I got you know, got your back, buddy.
Jamie: Listen. I appreciate
Scott: that. Yeah. No. I got you.
Jamie: So if you need any gear, tape, laces, scissors, candles, gear, what else? I don't know.
Scott: I should say them all again.
Jamie: Sweatshirts. Go to Howie's Hockey. Use the code Crazy 10 for 10% off your Howie's hockey gear. Wow. Jesus Christ.
Sheesh. I'm telling you.
Scott: I'm gonna I don't know what to say. I'm Yeah. I'm all sorts of confused.
Heather: By the
Jamie: way, are you talk are you talking about we're talking about coach Kevin or we're talking about API?
Scott: No. We're gonna talk about coach Kevin.
Jamie: Alright. Let's talk about coach Kevin.
Scott: So for those of you that don't know coach Kevin, you gotta check out hockeytraining.com, and he's got this library of, off ice training. We've got stick handling. They got speed, strength, agility. He offers virtual stick handling classes, so it's a great opportunity for anyone looking to get some reps in in the off season, but not go to a gym or to the rink. You can do it at the comfort of your own home, backyard, wherever you can do some stick handling and body weight, strength, agility.
Jamie: I like it.
Scott: Yeah. Know. In any event, he's got a great app, great platform. Yeah. Him out.
Great for the off season.
Jamie: Yeah. Hockeytraining.com. Hockey training HQ is his Instagram.
Scott: That's it. Coach Kevin, let's go.
Jamie: And then we have Titan Battle Gear.
Scott: Titan Battle Gear.
Jamie: So Scott and I trust Titan Battle Gear for both our kids, and I think we think you should too.
Heather: Mhmm.
Jamie: They have the most stylish looking base layers and the most protective base layers on the market today. So use the code crazy dads 10 for 10% off your Titan battle gear. Scott and I use it for our kids. You should too.
Scott: That's it. Titan battle gear. Check them out. Next up, API, athletic performance insight. All of you coaches, managers that are looking for a video analytics for your team next season, take a look at athleticperformanceinsight.com.
You can check out the, the app, what it can do for you. You can reach out to Eric. He's in the contact form. He'll break down a video for you, give you a tour of the the software, and really a tremendous tool to help your team see, you know, plays Yeah. Review the good, the bad, the ugly from the past weekend.
You can look at team stats, goalies, individual stats, all the things that you might wanna go over with your team.
Jamie: Really great. Check it out. Athletic Performance Insight. For a 10% discount, which I believe is a $100 value?
Scott: Yep. Mentioned Crazy Hockey Dads.
Jamie: So apparently, Eric did a demo for our coaches. Your coaches? He did. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: Apparently, it went Well, I guess he did do it. Well, last year he did it.
Jamie: Yeah. But he just did one the other day for our coaches.
Scott: Yeah. That's awesome.
Jamie: Yeah.
Scott: So they're gonna go with it?
Jamie: I think I'm pretty sure.
Scott: No. It's great.
Jamie: Maybe that's the plan. Yeah. Yeah. So they're gonna give the kids access. It should be good.
I'm looking forward to it.
Scott: Yeah. You know what? There's and I I remember when we first onboarded, not last season, but when I used it in years past
Jamie: Yeah.
Scott: I was trying to do it all myself.
Jamie: Not easy. Well,
Scott: I mean, the point is not that it's look.
Jamie: Were tagging your own game.
Scott: Yeah. Tagging your own game. Oh, that's impressive. But the the reason why I'm even bringing that up is because it got me really familiar with the platform and how much it can do.
Jamie: Mhmm.
Scott: And so it's just like you'd mentioned that you're giving the players access. You can communicate with your players. Yeah. And you know what else is great for? For any kid that might be getting, video review Mhmm.
Done by, like, you know, another skills coach or someone else that's outside of the team. Right. You know, you can use also use the you know, that video footage and those breakdowns to guide those video review sessions.
Jamie: Got listening.
Scott: Yeah. No. It was good. Anyway
Jamie: Awesome. Sorry. Just fixed my No worries. No because it was the volume button was stuck. It kept popping up in the corner.
Scott: Oh.
Jamie: Yeah. The the yes. Anyway, are happy with how it looks? Oh, love it. Fantastic.
Yeah. No. I'm looking forward to it. It'll be it should be good. We're having all sorts of difficulties tonight.
Scott: Why? What else happened?
Jamie: Nothing. Just like I
Scott: think
Jamie: Me not be able to speak, the camera, like
Scott: Jeez.
Jamie: Other than that, we're good. Go out. That, know Other than that, we're styling.
Scott: Listen. Bad things happen in threes.
Jamie: So you're saying we're gonna screw something else up?
Scott: No. I I just said something bad's gonna happen to you.
Jamie: Why not you?
Scott: Because you're the one with the with all
Jamie: the issues so far. Listen. Doesn't mean that one's not gonna happen to you before my third's gonna happen.
Scott: I mean, that's fair. Right? But you're kind of like moving away from the.
Jamie: For sure, yeah. Good point. Anyway, yeah man. So that takes care of our business. So yeah, so we're using the API next year, it should be fun.
Pretty sure Dominic won't look at it once.
Scott: Why?
Jamie: I just don't think he has the bandwidth for that stuff.
Scott: Yeah. But doesn't he do video review?
Jamie: He does, but different type of video review.
Scott: Oh, yeah? Yeah. What type of video review?
Jamie: Like, he's on, like, a Zoom call with a coach where they do, a screen share, and then, like, they should watch his games on, like, you know, on Black Bear TV or Live Barn, whatever it is.
Scott: But, like, you you wouldn't but you wouldn't next year if you were using API, like, screen share API and then kind of Sure
Jamie: can. Can. Yeah.
Scott: Drill down on
Jamie: Yeah. He'll use it that in that respect
Scott: That's what I'm saying.
Jamie: With Alec. He'll
Scott: use I it wasn't mentioning
Jamie: Yeah. But will he use by himself?
Scott: Probably not.
Jamie: Yeah. But I bet you some other kids will. Some other kids will die
Scott: They're starting to get yeah. I'm I'm sure there are some
Jamie: that They will dive into it. Totally. They'll get into it.
Scott: Yeah. They'll geek out on.
Jamie: My kid won't won't touch it. Pretty sure. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he won't touch it. Without me telling him, hey, bud. Why don't you take a look at this?
Yeah. You know, your API is getting a little lonely in the corner.
Scott: Jason Tapp, shout out. Let's go.
Jamie: Exactly right.
Scott: Go Dartmouth?
Jamie: Yes. Go Dartmouth is right. Go big green. Anyway, yeah.
Scott: We digress.
Jamie: We do digress. So we had the parody coming up this weekend. We had our first practice last night.
Scott: And how'd that look?
Jamie: Looked good.
Scott: Yeah?
Jamie: Actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A bunch of new kids look good.
Scott: There was there, in terms of like the the coaches demeanors, the way they was was there a difference between what you've seen last year or was like kinda true to form? With the coaches? Yeah.
Jamie: No. Zero.
Scott: Zero change.
Jamie: They're the
Scott: same dudes. Consistent.
Jamie: Yeah. They're the same dudes. Nothing changed at all. You know? They were the normal.
Jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: Great.
Jamie: Yeah. Just a bunch of different kids, a bunch of different parents.
Scott: Did you get, turn you had, like, kinda a lot of not lots not the right word because I know it's not a
Heather: lot, but
Scott: between d Mhmm. And forwards, did you have turnover on both sides?
Jamie: Oh, yeah.
Scott: Yeah? One was one hit more than the other?
Jamie: More forwards than d? More forwards.
Scott: Okay.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: Yeah. You have you have some, like, new top liners or you got, like, more, like, depth players?
Jamie: I don't know. It looks we'll see. I honestly don't know. Yeah. You know?
Maybe some, maybe some new, like, top line deep pairing.
Scott: That's exciting.
Jamie: But maybe some top line forwards too. We'll find out.
Scott: Right.
Jamie: You know? I think we're gonna be pretty nasty, though.
Scott: That's awesome.
Jamie: Yeah. Like, the product on the ice was was sharp. So you watched? I did. I normally don't, but I I always watch, like, the first practice just to see what the new kids look like.
Scott: Yeah. That would do the same thing.
Jamie: Yeah. But but but I don't I don't need to go in there anymore.
Scott: It'll it's alright. It'll taper off quickly once you
Jamie: 100%.
Scott: Got it.
Jamie: Yep. I hear you. But yeah. Because I don't wanna be in there for practice at all. Zero.
But, yeah. No. It looked good. No complaints. Yeah.
Parent met some new parents. They seem lovely. Coach has code of conduct for parents and for kids.
Scott: Which didn't exist last year.
Jamie: I mean, it did, you know, but it did, I think. Pretty sure it did. Maybe it's just gonna be more enforced this year.
Scott: Ah. I don't know.
Jamie: We'll see. Okay. I mean, not that there were issues. There weren't issues last year, it's not like it wasn't enforced last year. But it'll be interesting.
Scott: Okay. Was there like a No. Wasn't it? How do you know what I'm gonna say? You're just saying no to
Jamie: I have an idea.
Scott: What's your idea?
Jamie: No. I'm not not going there.
Scott: What's your idea? No. Why? You've interrupted me. Well, at least you could do is share your ideas.
Jamie: I did interrupt you. Apparently, I do that a lot.
Scott: Says who?
Jamie: Our schmucky listeners. Not all some schmucky listeners.
Scott: I don't know. They might be on to something.
Jamie: Oh, no. They're on to me. Wasn't that a, ace not ace was Jim Carrey, and I think it was Liar Liar. He's like, oh, no. They're onto me.
Scott: It reminded me of like, no. This is me in a nutshell. Hey. I'm in a nutshell. How do I get out anyway.
Jamie: How do I get out of this really big nutshell?
Scott: Yes. So anyway Yes. What was your idea you were about
Jamie: to say? No. Was just assuming you were gonna say something about us having like problems with some parents, which I don't think we're going to.
Scott: No. No. No. That's not what I was gonna say.
Jamie: I shouldn't have interrupted you then.
Scott: No. No. You shouldn't have.
Jamie: Clearly not.
Scott: Yeah. Anyway, no. I was gonna say was there anything No. From oh my lord. Sorry.
That was well played. I will
Jamie: You like that? Go
Scott: ahead. I mean it would have been funnier if you were interrupting somebody else but I still found it funny.
Jamie: Sorry. Go ahead. Continue.
Scott: No. Are you sure?
Jamie: I am. Okay. Dead air is not good.
Scott: That's true. Was there anything on the code of conduct list that like caught you by surprise that was like, oh, that's weird or is it pretty much like stuff you would have expected to
Jamie: be
Scott: part of?
Jamie: It was pretty standard, I think. Yeah. Yeah. They had code of conduct for kids. They're getting more the coaches are getting more serious about
Scott: about that. What's the deal with the oh, sorry. Now I cut you off.
Jamie: Seriously, what the fuck?
Scott: Oh, Jesus.
Jamie: Jesus, you're so fucking rude. Why don't you guys call in and and bust his balls? You guys call in and always raid in and bust my balls. Why don't you bust his balls once? What are you saying?
You're saying?
Scott: No. You finished.
Jamie: I was done.
Scott: Oh, so I didn't cut you off.
Jamie: No. You did, but go ahead.
Scott: Yeah. No. I forget. Oh, no. So I was gonna ask.
There was
Jamie: there was nothing new in the code of conduct.
Scott: Got it. Social media. What's the deal with social media and kids? Do you remember? Do you know?
Is it part of it?
Jamie: No. But there's no phones allowed in the locker room.
Scott: Got
Jamie: it. Zero phones.
Scott: That yeah.
Jamie: But that was last year too.
Scott: Yeah.
Jamie: Same. There was zero phones in the locker room. I like that. There was, like I said, code of conduct for parents. It was pretty extensive, the thing they sent out.
Like, they're they started doing it last year. They're starting to treat the kids like older kids.
Scott: Right.
Jamie: They're they're starting to treat them like you 18, you 16 type kids.
Scott: What's,
Jamie: They're obviously not, but they're they're trying to get them prepared for
Scott: That makes sense. What's game day, dress?
Jamie: So normally, game day dress is like, slacks, shoes, shirt tie, or or like, not jacket, but like collared shirt and like pullover or something like
Scott: that. Cardigan. Thanks for asking. It's pullover.
Jamie: Pullover. Tic tac, sir.
Scott: The the funny part about that scene is when Harry
Jamie: Which one with the cop?
Scott: What? That scene? Yeah. Yeah. When when Harry's when he's is he's kind of observing this.
He's like, no. No. No. No. Okay.
Okay.
Jamie: He's like, you'll shut up if you know what's good for you or something like that. Okay. Oh, okay. Tic tac toe. Oh my god.
Yes. So, yeah. So, yeah. So, it yeah. No, it should be interesting and again, nothing new.
I think that the coaches are dialed in. I think the kids seem to be dialed in. I think that the parents seem cool. They shouldn't have an issue at all, code of conduct wise for anything. It's there, but I can't imagine we're gonna have issues.
You know what I mean? We haven't had issues in in years. So I
Scott: can't imagine we're going
Jamie: to now. You know? So, again Well, listen. Good parents. Like, I I our old parents are great.
Yeah. Like, similar like what Topher Scott says, like, you know, surround yourself with like good parents or like hopefully you surround yourself with good parents. Yeah. So we're I must say, I give Tyler credit because they have since we came three years ago, that's been something that he's really like he's really like staunch on. You know, he he does not want a problem.
Scott: No. I don't think anyone would.
Jamie: No. No. He, you know, he he has not taken kids on this team that could have been problems. Okay. Yeah.
So I I give him a ton of credit. He's been big on that for years. Good. He didn't just say. Yeah.
He's actually
Scott: Makes his life more difficult.
Jamie: It does. You're right. You're 100100%. But there's a lot of people that do take, you know, kids that are tough and parents that are tough just because, you know, a kid can play.
Scott: Without a doubt. There's ways to deal with those situations also. Yeah. You know, if you're willing to take that kind of thing on.
Jamie: Yeah. You gotta
Scott: Take on the challenge.
Jamie: You know the risk, you know, and you're upright.
Scott: High risk, high reward could be.
Heather: I bet it.
Scott: It's true. You know?
Jamie: Yeah. If you could kinda yeah. If you can get a kid in line to fall in line or listen to your trust or whatever. Yeah. But I can't imagine we're gonna have any issues.
Scott: Yeah. Good.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. So it should be fun. Yeah. So this so we have practice, what is it?
We practice Thursday, and then we have a three games on Sunday Mhmm. Not far away, down in, like, the Princeton area, so that should be cool. Nice. You know? So, yeah.
Looking for I'm I'm curious to see what this looks like on the ice.
Scott: Nice, dude.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. It should be fun. Sweet. Yeah.
Looking forward to it. You guys have no hockey?
Scott: No. We have some spring practices that have been scheduled in May.
Jamie: Got it.
Scott: So nothing just yet. Okay. Otto really has not been on the ice much. Like, he went to
Jamie: Well, yeah. You wanted to talk about your your travel.
Scott: I mean, I can yeah. In a second. But he was, I don't know. Since the season ended, it's been really minimal. I mean, he missed, like, he signed up for a clinic, a local clinic that, like, meets, I don't know, how many sessions there are.
Let's call it, I don't know, eight, six or eight sessions. He missed two because he was away.
Jamie: Is that it oh, that's that's it. The American dream. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely by
Scott: the way. Yeah. Well yeah. Not lovely. No.
No. I skated on it.
Jamie: Lovely Rink.
Scott: I didn't play hockey on it, but Yeah. How about his birthday there?
Jamie: Did he? Yeah. Copy of, like, the Mall Of America Rink.
Scott: It's the I think the same architects that did it.
Jamie: I think it's the same owner.
Scott: Could be that too.
Jamie: I thought so. Maybe I'm wrong about that. No. I could swear it was the same owner. Yeah.
Could be. Yeah. No. Nice. Really nice.
Yeah. Doesn't get used enough in my opinion.
Scott: I I don't keep tabs on it, but I
Jamie: don't either, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't get used a lot.
Scott: Probably less than other places?
Jamie: I think so. Yeah. Which is shocking because ice is hard to come by around here.
Scott: Yeah. You know? There's probably some logistics involved there.
Jamie: We don't talk logistics.
Scott: No. Pat Jay, what's up? Shout out. Anyhow, no. So he hasn't skated much.
He got back on the ice in Norley. It was like, yeah.
Jamie: Was he like Bambi?
Scott: He was pretty rusty, apparently.
Jamie: It happens.
Scott: Yeah. No. It's fine. I'm not hating. I'm
Heather: just saying.
Jamie: Yeah. No. Listen.
Scott: It happens. Yeah. So that's that mountain biking race, first one this past weekend. It was far away. It was an hour two and a half hours away.
Woah.
Jamie: It's like a hockey it's like a hockey weekend.
Scott: Two and a half hours away. Nice. He had to be there at 7AM for a, like, a I guess, like, I don't know, trial run or, like, whatever you wanna call it.
Jamie: Right. They got to, like, walk the course or, like, ride the course. Yeah.
Scott: They ride the course just so
Jamie: So they know
Scott: familiarize themselves.
Jamie: Where they're going when they actually ride it for real. Yep. Got it. Okay.
Scott: We drove down a Saturday night. Okay. Slept there.
Jamie: Stay in hotel.
Scott: Stay in hotel.
Jamie: It's really like a hockey weekend. Yep.
Scott: And there was like a mountain biking team in the lobby, and I was like, oh, a 100. I'm like, oh, this is just like hockey.
Jamie: I was gonna say, it's like you guys were in your element.
Scott: A 100. Yeah. Yeah. Nice.
Jamie: That's fun. Were the parents getting getting hammered in the lobby too?
Scott: They were drinking. Oh. Yeah. Literally. Same.
Jamie: Same exact thing.
Scott: Same thing. Okay.
Jamie: Here we go.
Scott: Yeah. So then we got there at 7AM the next morning. Right. Did his thing Mhmm. Which was like a forty minute tour through the woods.
So once he went into the woods, I was like, alright. Now I'm hanging up by myself. So you were just went to the car.
Jamie: Threw up like a lawn chair or something like that.
Scott: And I waited for Otto to get out. Okay. And then he staged for his event at like nine Mhmm. Thirty, 09:45 ish.
Jamie: K.
Scott: Since Ray started 10:03. K. And then he was in the woods again.
Jamie: So you saw him very little.
Scott: Yeah. And the point is, like, there's like, once the kids ride off into the woods, there's nothing to watch. It's not like, you know, even at, like, my daughter's swim meet, look look, I'm not like
Jamie: At least there's something to watch.
Scott: Listen. The truth is I'd be doing the same thing. I'd be on my phone or my computer, but the bottom line is that, like
Jamie: There's literally nothing to
Scott: watch. Literally nothing to watch.
Jamie: Gotta wait till it comes out of the woods.
Scott: Yeah. Got it. So that was like, okay.
Jamie: People don't, like, stagger along the route at all. They just wait at the at the finish line.
Scott: If they did, I didn't see a way to kind of venture into the woods, and they need volunteers. So you could be like a course marshal.
Jamie: Okay.
Scott: And you could be like stationed in the woods.
Jamie: Something like that or goes down or
Scott: Or just help direct people or whatever. But I was like, I'm no. As soon as you're done, we're leaving. You know? So I didn't wanna get, like, committed to being down there any longer than I needed to be.
Jamie: Understood.
Scott: But they try to make it, like, an event ish. Like, we got there. There was music playing. All the different teams had their own tents. People had barbecues going.
You know, there was some merch.
Jamie: It was kind Tailgate for a BMX, not BMX, for a mountain biking race.
Scott: But like it's a place because the kids go in like waves. Right? So like outdoors, you need a place to kinda like for the team to hang out. So all these teams have like pop up tents.
Jamie: Got it. Okay.
Scott: Some merch. I didn't really see anyone selling food. They had like an obstacle obstacle course is the wrong word, like a skills course for them with like jumps and like Okay. All different whatever. Cool.
Nice. So it was a little bit of a thing.
Jamie: Alright. Nice.
Scott: But yeah. I I mean, whatever. What time did you go home? We left we left Saturday at, like, five, and then I got home Sunday at, like, 03:30.
Jamie: Oh, long. Yeah. And not much to watch.
Scott: No. Oh, and there was no no reception to boot. So it's not like
Jamie: Oh, you're in the middle of nowhere.
Scott: Oh, yeah. Oh. Yeah. I was like, damn.
Jamie: You know, it's funny. Think you text me, yo, and then, like, you were the radio silence after that.
Scott: Because nothing I I was getting calls if Orly called me, but my outbound calls and my outbound We
Jamie: need to buy Starlink. We can't Oh
Scott: my god. I froze again.
Jamie: Oh my god. You did freeze again.
Scott: That's that's a less optimal. That's not a no, that's interesting.
Jamie: You mean the look on your
Scott: The look on my face.
Jamie: The look on you for freezing? Why you froze again? Why'd you freeze again?
Scott: I don't know. What's the deal?
Jamie: We have to fix that. That's two in a row.
Scott: It's embarrassing. That means we have to wrap this up.
Jamie: Alright. Alright. We can.
Scott: So we gotta kick it over to our next, our next interview.
Jamie: USA Hockey's Heather Mannix. That's right. Thank you very much.
Scott: Big name. On the player development front.
Jamie: Oh my god.
Scott: Yep. She's manager of education player development, and she's on the front lines of making sure our kids and coaches get it right, dude.
Jamie: She was so much fun, by the way. Yeah. Like, she was a great interview. Yeah. Like, she was a lot of fun.
Big fan.
Scott: Yeah. I know. She's, she was great. And, you know, the best part is, like, everyone that we've spoken to at USA Hockey Yeah. Is they've been great insightful conversations.
And so No.
Jamie: They're all wonderful. Yeah. I gotta tell you, the three rock stars that we spoke to over there, it's big fans.
Scott: Yeah. So let's kick it over to Heather.
Jamie: And hopefully, will unfreeze you.
Scott: Yeah. Will unfreeze me for sure. Sounds good. Everybody enjoy. Enjoy the episode.
Alright, everybody. Welcome back to our next interview with Heather Mannix. Heather is the manager of education player development for USA Hockey. She spent three years as an ADM manager of female hockey. She specifically works with local hockey associations and programs nationwide to support age appropriate training, competition, and long term athletic development.
Heather, thank you so much for joining us tonight. This is awesome.
Heather: Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Scott: Yeah. So so right out of the gate, if you could just kinda, like, set the table, for our audience, just to kinda clue us into, you know, your role at USA Hockey and maybe just dive a little bit deeper into, like, the things that you're doing day to day and and kind of where your primary focuses are.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. So my role, I've been with USA Hockey for a little over six years now. My role has kind of evolved over those six years, and it's it's pretty cool my what I get to do on a day to day basis now. So I like you said, I was hired in originally as an ADM manager for female hockey.
It was myself and Kristen Sager that basically split up the entire US working solely with with girls hockey, women's hockey. And then our our job descriptions kinda shifted a little bit. We we all became player development managers, and it's basically what we were doing anyways. And then and when I first started, it was in 2019. Things changed pretty quickly right
Jamie: out Yeah. Of the Sure.
Heather: Yeah. So so our job descriptions, everybody kind of changed a little bit, and we all had to adapt. And I got really into coaching education, which my background kinda supports that that space really well. And and so I got really into coaching education and kind of hit the ground running with that. We we changed.
We kind of flipped our coaching education program on its head a little bit, over the last five years. And so I've just kind of, with a great team, been, continuing to build that out on a on a day to day basis. So I actually now as a manager of education, I oversee all of our coaching education, the curriculum. And now my boss, Bob Mancini, took
Jamie: We know him well.
Heather: Yeah. Good guy. Right?
Jamie: Yes. He is. One of our favorites.
Heather: Actually. No. So, so he he his vision was wanting to get the officiating education and coaching education to be much more aligned. He created the manager of education role to kind of oversee both of our coaching education and officiating education. So that's where the majority of my time, lies, is kind of managing the the curriculum and building that out.
We're making some major changes on officiating education now as well. But I still get to to to do the player development stuff. I, I continue to to fight Bob for it. I I think that, that, you know, having my my my skates on the on the ice in local communities is is important for me to be able to continue to do the best work at the coaching education and officiating education standpoint. Knowing what's happening, locally, I think, is, is super important to make sure that, you know, our our education is still is is applicable, and it's necessary to, to meet the needs of the people on the ground.
So so yeah. So that's kind of my my day to day is really working in coaching and officiating education and then traveling all over the place wherever I'm needed in a player development role because that's always fun to get out on the ice with the kids. So, yeah. That's cool. Kinda sums it up.
Jamie: That's very cool. And talk about your I know you played when you were younger. Talk about from when you were a kid and how you got into the game. Your your your parents play it? Like, how'd you start?
Heather: Yeah. So my my parents didn't play. My my both my parents grew up in Southwest Detroit, and didn't necessarily have the means to to play ice hockey, but my dad played a lot of street hockey, was just loved the game, and got my brother into it. I think shortly after shortly after we learned how to walk, I think we had skates on our feet. And and, you know, I was a rink rat growing up, just following my brother around and wanting to do everything that he did.
And so, you know, just being around the game from I mean, my earliest memories are are being in a rink. So, so that's where I kind of got started. And my dad was actually my coach, until, shoot, I was probably 15 years old. Wow. Yeah.
And still to this day, you know, didn't play high level hockey, but one of the best coaches that I've ever had. Awesome. Horns down. Yeah. And and so kind of went through the the ranks of of youth hockey in in the Metro Detroit area.
So played with the Michigan Capitals when they still had a program, played with the Ice Dogs, then ended with Little Caesars, and continued on into into college, played played at Western Michigan University. And and yeah. So from a from a hockey standpoint, I was in the rink. My earliest memories, I took a little bit of a break after college and came back and started playing again as an adult. And I can tell you that I'm still having so much fun.
Although, since I travel so much this year, I've only played two games. And last night, I played, two games in the last year. Last night was my third game, and I'm, just say it's it was very noticeable that I'd only been on the ice two times in the last. Just happy to be here with you guys tonight. It was a little touch and go last night.
Jamie: Goodness. I'm I'm glad you made it. Yeah.
Scott: So, you know, I obviously, having played so much hockey and you said, like, a self proclaimed rink rat, like, what was it what was the the family dynamic like? I mean, I'm sure it was that, you know, the things were different then than they are now. But, like, just in terms of, like, you know, your parents, do you have, like, quote, unquote, crazy hockey parents where there's, like, super competitive? Like, what was that like, you know, from the car ride home to, like, you know, having supportive, like, parents? Like, was there anything, you know, for better or for worse that that, like, really sticks out to you about your family dynamic?
Heather: Yeah. I think that we we are a competitive family. That is hands down. I think anybody who knows us will will agree with that. It's interesting that you bring up the the car ride home.
And because my dad was my coach for so long Yeah. I can tell you that I actually really loved the car ride home because we would unpack the game, and I enjoyed I I liked that because it it helped me understand and see things from a different level. And I'm not saying that every single one of our car ride homes was was a great car ride home. There were times where, let's just say that we we butt heads a little bit. We're we're pretty we're pretty similar, he and I.
I think that I think that we we had a relationship that he could tell if this conversation was not helping the situation, and and we could shut it down. So that was, I think I think really important was his awareness of, you know, alright. I can push here. I can I can challenge here, or I need to back off? And and I think that, he was one of those coaches that there was no parent was concerned that he was showing me favoritism.
And, and but he was very consistent. Right? And he was consistent with every player. On the ice, I was a player. I wasn't necessarily his daughter.
So that's what I think was really important was there was there was no favoritism, and and he was incredibly consistent with the you know, these are the expectations. If you make these choices, these are the consequences, good or bad. And whether you're my daughter or whether you're, you know, somebody else that another one of the players on the team, you're going to receive the same treatment. And and I thought that that was actually pretty important. And and so I think I wouldn't necessarily say that I wouldn't I'm thinking back now, and I wouldn't classify either of my parents as as crazy hockey parents.
I think they were they were pretty realistic with with expectations, and they just wanted to make sure that they pushed us and challenged us as as much as they could to kind of help us to to grow and get out of our comfort zone. But I think that they both kind of knew when to to dial it back. My mom was always the one, you know, no matter what, she would she would be there to, you know, if she saw my dad going a little too hard, alright, that's enough, Fred. You know?
Jamie: My wife does the my wife does the exact same thing. So I know exactly what you mean.
Heather: Yes. So I mean, my dad was pretty self aware, but there were times where, you know, that awareness maybe wasn't so great, and that's when mom kicked in and, you know, she just came in with the, know
Jamie: Mama bear. Yes. Yes. Of course. Emotions run high with with dads for whatever reason.
Heather: Yeah. For
Jamie: sure. So that's interesting because you actually liked the car talking about it in the car ride. Most kids don't.
Heather: Yeah. You know? And I think that's important, right, is is figuring out, you know, what I mean, every kid is a little bit different. And that car ride home, it typically it just helped me help me see the game a little bit differently and and kind of digest it. And but I mean, it's I was very different than my brother in the sense that, you know, I was very competitive but if we lost a game, like, if he lost a game, he would be just pissed off.
For the rest of the day, don't talk to him, don't, you know, and for me, you know, we lost the game and I'm like, alright, let's figure out like what went wrong.
Jamie: What am Okay. I
Heather: doing now? What's happening? Analytical.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Very smart.
Scott: So so the, so I'd love to hear more about just, your time, when you were younger and just when you started playing, girls only hockey, for how long were you playing, like, you know, coed, and and maybe if you could share, like, your perspective, you know, certainly within your, you know, like, USA hockey lens, kind of like how any parents who have, you know, daughters playing hockey, kinda like how to navigate those types of decisions.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. So when I when I grew up in in Michigan, I played coed until I was 11. And one of the reasons was I think I was probably sixty five pounds, you know, soaking wet.
And I, you know, was sitting next to a kid named Lance Lackowitz who was like a buck three. And, you know, my mom's like, you're gonna die if you play Pee Wee next year, you have to check against kids that size.
Jamie: That's right. There was checking in Pee Wee back then. I should've heard about that.
Heather: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I and my coach that I originally started with, his name was Dave Boyk, and he he was an incredible guy. My my d partner, it was me and Melissa. We were the only girls on the team.
We were called the Bruise sisters. And we were you know, she was my deep partner, you know, and her dad actually started a a girls team right around that time. And so at that time in Michigan, we only had 15 u and 19 u. So those were the only two age categories. So I was 11 years old playing with, you know, 15 year olds, which Wow.
You look at back at it now and you're like, well, I mean, you had to grow up pretty quick. I mean, don't recommend that nowadays.
Jamie: No. USA hockey wouldn't like that today.
Heather: Yeah. No. No. And but so that's when I switched over was I was 11 years old. I started playing 15 U hockey, and and then I played girls hockey for for the rest of my my time playing.
We get asked that question a lot though is, alright. So does my girl does my my daughter have a better chance if she plays youth hockey, co ed hockey? When do when should she start moving over to to girls hockey? And I think the the the answer that I I truly believe in is with USA Hockey, we would love to have a situation where there is enough girls playing and there's enough opportunities that girls can choose whether they wanna play youth coed or all girls. Because it's gonna be different from girl to girl.
I had no problem playing on on a team of of mostly, I was the only girl in some in some instances, and I had no issue with that. But there are girls that will not play hockey because there's there's not an all girls option. And so, ideally, the the best case scenario is that we have situations where the girls can choose. Because the reality is is I think that girls and women's hockey has grown so much over the last, you know, ten, fifteen years, and twenty years that the the development is is catching up. You look at our our women's national team, and there are there are players on there that played girls hockey their entire career where
Jamie: Yeah.
Heather: Ten years ago, that wasn't the case. Where, you know, just ten years ago, you had to play boys hockey, or or coed hockey to to to get to a certain level. And so I think from a development standpoint and, you know, the the goal is that we are educating coaches on on how to coach girls. And the reality is is it's not that different. There are some things to to to absolutely be aware of, but, you know, at the end of the day, if I walk into a rink and I see a 10 u girls team playing on one side and a 10 u boys team playing on the other side competitively, like like, genetically speaking or physiologically speaking, there should be absolutely no difference in in the quality of play from a developmental standpoint.
If there's any difference, the girls should be a little bit better. Bigger, faster, stronger because they develop more
Jamie: mature sooner. Absolutely.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. And and so if that's not happening, take out, you know, the variables of the girls maybe, you know, haven't been skating as long as the boys or or something like that. If you if everything is equal from a development standpoint, the girls hockey should look exactly the same, especially at, like, before puberty. And we're starting to see that more and more, around the around the country.
So
Jamie: Curious. You know, I know that The USA hockey numbers, the registration numbers are up, you know, across The US. Or I'm assuming the girls numbers are are up as as well. Right? That's not just all boys.
It's it's across the board. Am I right?
Heather: Yeah. No. In fact, girls is one of our our fastest growing, subpopulations within the within our membership. And we we consistently are around 6% growth each year. So that's actually I mean, we're a lot of times, and this is one of the reasons why and I don't know if you had Ken on here.
He may have talked about, like, the reasoning behind starting the the ADM was in in 2008, our membership numbers were steadily growing, and it was because of girls in girls hockey and adult hockey were masking the, the plateau in certain areas, the decline of youth hockey, so on the boys' side. Interesting. So so that so, I mean, for pretty consistently over the past decade, the the girls' hockey growth actually, since since '98, really, the the ninety eight Olympics is what just, you know, skyrocketed our our girls' numbers, and we've been growing consistently ever
Jamie: since. That's great. Mhmm. It's awesome.
Scott: So as as far as the you know, we're just talking about coaching and how there's there's not that much, you know, difference necessarily between coaching, you know, a girl squad or a boy squad. But, you know, I'm curious about, like, the coaching education piece and, like, coupling that with, like, accountability. And I
Jamie: was just gonna ask that.
Scott: Yeah. Because, like, you know, you often hear, like, you know and and, you know, parents in the stands saying things like, oh, you know, our coach doesn't teach or our coach, you know, you know, doesn't do this or ice time isn't fair or there's ism. Like, these are all very common things. And some people, like, just are looking through very blurry lenses, but, you know, sometimes that's not the case. But if we just get back to, like, the coach doesn't teach piece, like, in terms of USA hockey and I mean, I've gone through coaching certifications myself.
So I think I'm level four I've gone gone through. So, you know, I've I've participated in, but what's interesting is the follow through from the organization was was next to nothing in terms of reinforcing USA Hockey, ADM, like, any of the stuff that we went through even though I, you know, needed to be certified. There's very little follow through. So in terms of, like, that accountability piece, like, kind of, like, how is that handled within USA Hockey?
Heather: Yeah. And when when was the last time that you went through your your coaching education?
Scott: Not this past year. Two years ago, I think I finished level four. I didn't do one going into last season or this yeah. So, like, two years ago.
Heather: Yeah. So that's one of the because you talk about our coach doesn't doesn't teach. So one of the one of the big changes that we made over the last, like, you know, it's been five years now. And so one of the big things that we changed was that, you know, our a lot of our coaching education before focused on the the what to coach, and all of that is very, very important. But what we what we start to notice, and this is kind of generally speaking across coaching education across different sports, is that that the what to coach was typically a priority when it came to, like, the content of coaching education.
And what was missing is that how to coach piece. And right now so the I think the goal of our coaching education program is is there's so much what to coach on the Internet now. Like, there there's so many resources at everybody's fingertips that just wasn't there, you know, twenty years ago. Unless you went to a coaching education course and you got the booklets and, you know, that was kind of like the extent of of what to coach at that time. And so we think about, like, there's so much out there.
The goal of our coaching education program right now is to introduce coaches to the the how to coach. Right? So those how to coach skills of explanation, of demonstrating, of how do you observe what's happening? Are you just are you just pushing pucks and and making sure that the drill is flowing, or are you actually taking a step back and observing the behaviors that you're seeing? And is this what I wanna see, or is this something that do I need to tweak the drill or or change things up a little bit to to actually get the behaviors that I want?
And all of that comes down to, you know, being able to take those observations. You're analyzing and making decisions in real time. And then how are you generating feedback or providing feedback? So all of those skills are things that coaches need to hone in order to be good teachers. I mean, a lot of that stuff comes from the classroom.
And and so that's kind of a a big change in terms of the content of our our coaching education to make sure that we coaches at least have an understanding or they are exposed to information of this how to coach piece. And then also getting them to start to think a little bit more critically about, alright. So you get this drill off of the Internet. Is it a good drill? Is it age appropriate?
Is it actually, you know, doing what you want it to do with your players? And are you seeing the behavior change that you actually are looking for? So those are kind of the two big pillars that that are are a little bit different than I think that is what's been done in the past. But when it comes to the accountability point, this is something that we work so closely with, like, countries like Sweden, Finland. And, you know, it's it's wonderful what they are able to do.
You know, they have player development managers or regional managers just like we do. They have about the same number as we do, but they have about the same number of players that, like, the state of Minnesota does.
Jamie: I was just gonna say, in the state of New Jersey, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's a totally different ballgame. Yeah.
Heather: It would be the equivalent of us taking all of our player development managers, putting them in Minnesota, and and that's, like, from an accountability standpoint.
Jamie: Cover everybody.
Heather: Yep. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so our player development role is is really to get out there and and to help with that accountability.
Right? It's to to try and get out there and support coaches in the field, on the ice. You know, our player development role used to kind of be we would go into associations. We would run, you know, a practice, show them this is this is what a really good practice looks like. And, you know, either the the hockey director would take the night off or the coaches would just sit back and be like, alright.
We don't have to do anything in this practice. And then we'd leave, and there's not there's not much change that's happening there. And so what we do now is we try to go into associations, and we do a little bit more kind of continuing education in the field. We get on the ice with the coaches. The coaches are running mostly, the coaches are running the practice.
We do debriefs with them afterwards of, alright. You know, what was your goal with this? What did you notice? How did you tweak these things? What went well?
What could go better next time? And and so that's kind of the role of the player development manager over the the last several the last, you know, since we've they've been in in in place. So that's what the the the accountability piece, you know, that's what from the national office, that's where it's coming from. However, it's a big country. Right?
And we have, you know Yes.
Jamie: It
Heather: is. Eight or nine player development managers. Actually, I think it's like seven or eight now.
Jamie: To cover the entire US.
Heather: To cover the entire US.
Jamie: Wow. Yeah. And
Heather: so there's there's that, but then we also have a a hockey director's course as well. And and one of the things that we're trying to do is because oftentimes, if a coach comes into our our our clinics, if they get jazzed up about the the new information, like, oh, wow. I wanna try this. And then they go back into an association, they're not necessarily supported because, you know, they the the, you know, hockey director or the association as a whole is like, this is how we've always done it. We're gonna keep doing it this way.
So that's where, like, we're trying to find these, you know, these, lever points, you know, where where like, what can we where can we start to tip the, you know, the that tipping point? Who who are the people that can help with that accountability in the field and how do we help support them? So not perfect. There's definitely limitations, but those are some things we're doing from the national office.
Jamie: You know, it's funny. Bob Biancini, when we had him on the first or the second time, I don't remember it, but he was telling us that certain pockets in The US, depending on where they are, don't necessarily follow USA Hockey's advice. Right? Northeast, there's some the old school hockey playing areas. Right?
And he said that the ones that are more receptive are the newer hockey hotbeds, California, Florida, Arizona. Right? So I'm curious. If you could build the perfect coach that ran the perfect practice, what would that look like? In in USA Hockey's the perfect scenario, which USA Hockey would be like this.
Heather: Yeah.
Jamie: Perfect. What would it look like?
Heather: Yeah. That's a great question. So knowing so my background, and we can get into that a little bit later if you want, but fun is very important to me. The importance of of fun when it comes to to development and and how that actually keeps kids engaged and how that that accelerates oftentimes their their actual development on the ice. That's so I think a practice, if it's if it is fun and engaging, then you are you're going to get better reps.
You're typically getting more reps. And and so from a a perfect coach, perfect practice standpoint, you know, I think that a perfect coach, if there is such a thing
Jamie: Yeah.
Heather: Never thinks that they know everything. Right?
Jamie: Well said.
Heather: As soon as you think you you know everything or you can't grow, that's a pretty dangerous situation to to put yourself in if you're trying to actually get better. So somebody who's constantly trying to get better, somebody who's constantly trying to to push the the envelope, but also being very open to different ways of doing things. I think the having a a a good foundational knowledge in the the constraints led approach where how do you how do you manipulate the the game that's happening in front of you? So I always say that and I'm I'm sure that I stole this from somebody or some one of my colleagues, but if you were to break the the game down in the most simplest form, it's a series of problems that your kids have to solve all over the ice. So if we can create those scenarios and games that that represent those problems and you give them rep after rep after rep in different scenarios, and you have the ability, the observation skills as a coach to be able to sit back and say, this isn't exactly what I was looking for.
Maybe we're gonna change we're gonna, you know, put this constraint on and see what kind of behaviors start to emerge. So a coach that that is well versed in in understanding how to manipulate the game and and get the behaviors that you're actually looking for in in a in a player. And I think that I am a big fan of I'm a big fan of games, but not just games for games' sake. Right? That's one of the the knocks that we get with USA Hockey is, you know, alright.
They they said we have to play small area games, so I'm gonna play three v three cross ice, and I'm doing what USA hockey told me to do. Like, yeah, they're gonna learn some things if you just let them play three v three cross ice. But what are you doing? What's the game within the game? What's the what are you know, and I always use this example.
It's, you know, if I'm looking for working on stick detail, you can play a three v three cross ice game. But now I'm gonna say that every time you score a goal, it's a point. But every time you get intentional stick on puck, so you got in there, you got stick on puck, you caused a turnover, your team gets a point. Well, now I've just created a game within the game, and I've incentivized a certain behavior or habit that I want my kids to to to start to do and and look for and actually, you know, actually skate for that opportunity because they know they're gonna get an extra point if they get sick on punk. That's what I want them to do in a game.
So it's not games just for game sakes. It's it is it's creating game like situations all over the ice in a fun and engaging way and a coach that doesn't think that they they'll ever know enough.
Jamie: So no standing still, constantly moving and doing. Right?
Scott: That type
Heather: of stuff. At the youngest ages, absolutely. Like, we wanna keep them moving. I'm coaching a ten year girls team right now, and and I it's very important that they are engaged because as soon as they are standing in line for
Jamie: Things happen.
Heather: Bad things happen. You know? But when I if you start coaching, you know, 13, 14 year olds now that you, you know, you have puberty is set in, their body is now, you know, building lactic acid. If you want them to have and play at the intensity, the game like intensity in each one of those reps, then you need to build in that that rest, you know, that one to one to two or one to three work to rest ratio, because their body needs that time to to recover and then be able to to keep that intensity high. So yeah.
Scott: So let me ask you in terms of, like so we're talking about coaching and some ideal, like, you know you know, I guess, attributes a coach would have in terms of, you know, having parents, I guess, better understand, you know, what to expect from coaches or just having their children, part of USA hockey. What do you, I guess, maybe wish parents understood about maybe the word development or their child's long term development? Because, you know, people, like, even now, like, you know, talking to parents, I just want my kid to develop develop. I mean, that that's the word. But, you know, I'm sure everyone's got their own slightly different version of what that actually means to them.
So so how do you kind of, like, address that when when the idea of development and long term development comes up?
Heather: Yeah. It's so I I don't have kids, but I my niece and nephew, and my my brother is an incredibly smart human and my sister-in-law incredibly smart. And and and I see this even with our our player development managers who have young kids that, you know, they they know and understand what's best for development, but the the parental pressure Oh.
Jamie: It's so funny you're gonna go there. Go
Scott: ahead. Right.
Heather: It's it is crazy. So people who even know better
Jamie: are 100%.
Heather: If I'm actually doing like, do we need to sign them up for this, you know, this tournament team? Because if they're not ready, they don't play in summer, then they're never gonna make the fall team. And if they don't play in fall, like and it's it's crazy. You like, I'm I'm very good friends with people that absolutely know better, and they're still like, wait, are we doing the right thing? So I think that it's the it's the, you know, the old adage of the everybody's racing to the finish line, but are you racing to the right finish line?
And and so often, you know, we we wanna continue to push adults adult the the adult game farther and farther down the line, to younger and younger stages and have these expectations younger and younger that they should be able to do this. They need to be able to do that if they're going to get to the next level. So from a from a parent's perspective, if you can remember, like, at, like, at the youngest ages, they have to love the game. Right? They have to love the game, and that's the most important thing no matter what.
Like, it is at at 10 years old, the the state championship or the tournament championship, it really, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Like, no college scout is going to ask what your eight year old's stats were, and were they on the power play, and did they score the game winning goal?
Jamie: And That's right.
Heather: Nobody asked that. But somehow, in some way, we've we've made those things so important, in our in our minds as as adults. And so from a parent's perspective, I would I would try to say, just don't rush to the wrong finish line. You know, you want your kid still loving the game at 16, 17, 18 years old. And if they're on the ice, you know, if they're, you know, practicing, you know, three, four days a week and they're playing, you know, 35 to 50 games as as a six and seven year old, which is happening out there Yes.
Often.
Jamie: Oh, yes. It is.
Heather: Or those kids are waking up at at 07:00 in the morning and or 05:00 in the morning in some cases for a six year old to to get to the rink, like, that's not fun. That sucks as a kid.
Jamie: And it is happening. You're right. Yeah. Which is one of the reasons why we started this podcast. You know, we had Alex Kim on from the Anaheim Junior Ducks.
And, right, Scott, Alex said, you know, you gotta get your ten hours in.
Scott: Well, that that that wasn't what he he recommended, but he said that's what, like, some of the most competitive players. Now, again, we might be talking about, like, 14, 15, 16 year olds, but still ten hours a week. Well, okay. But either way, ten hours a week of ice time is,
Jamie: like Is a lot.
Scott: That's healthy.
Jamie: For young kids.
Scott: Or unhealthy. Right. However you wanna look at it.
Heather: Yeah. And depending on the age. Right? I mean, like, once they get to, you know, that that 15, 16, 17 age, I mean and then and they've they've made that choice. Right?
They're old enough to to say, this is this is what I wanna do. This is what I wanna use my time for. Then, yeah, that's having those opportunities, I mean, that's one of the things with with the the scandic countries is, you know, they they have the opportunities to be on the ice three, four times a week. But they've they've done it in such a way that it's they're not burnt out by the time that they get there. And and so those those touches are they're able to take a little bit more time with their development at at that age.
But, I mean, if we're doing that at at six, seven, eight years old, and and you're consistently doing that all the way up to to 17, like
Jamie: Right.
Heather: That's just there's not a there's a whole lot of kids that'll burn out more than than kids that will develop. And and so, yeah, that's that's just a a cautionary tale.
Scott: Well, this might be a stupid question, and I don't know that I've I've asked it. But, in terms of, like, burnout and what that actually looks like, I I mean, I think I always assume that when we talk about a kid burning out, that means that they quit Mhmm. That they're ultimately not playing. But instead of saying they stopped playing, we say they burnt out. Like, you know, is is burnout the way that you talk about it with know, amongst your peers within USA hockey, is that always mean that that those these are kids that have stopped playing, or we or or perhaps there's another, like, way to think about what burnout is.
Heather: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that they they stopped playing. Right? I mean, there are kids that can absolutely be experiencing burnout but are still that are still playing. And and oftentimes, you you see a drop in their in their overall performance, and there's not really anything that is happening physically or, you know, like, it's not that they they didn't, you know, have enough electrolytes before practice or they, you know, it's oh, they played too many games in a row or too many practices in a row.
It's it's they their their motivation to to come to the rink, to want to, you know, to want to practice outside of the rink, that all starts to, you know, take a a nosedive down. And and that doesn't I mean, if you if they stay in that for for too long, the likelihood is that they're not going to continue to play. But there's a lot of kids that are experiencing burnout that are still in the in the game. You know, one of the things that that we know from research is, you know, like, fun is the number one reason why kids play sports, right, across the board. And the lack of fun, like, when it becomes no longer fun, that is the most commonly cited reason why kids stop playing.
I mean, makes complete sense. Right? That's not the only reason that they stop playing. If they get to a certain age, you know, their friends become a little bit more important or other sports may become more important. So it's not the only reason why kids stop playing sports, but it's a it's a huge contributing factor.
And and so the way that we as adults look at fun is is very different from what the kids have actually operationally defined it as.
Jamie: You know, that's actually very interesting that you say that. And it's funny. I think almost kids probably feel like it's more like a job and not fun to come to the rink, right, some of those ages, right, if you're experiencing burnout. But it's funny that you just said that. I'm curious.
Fun to a child, right, who's or to a player. I guess my question is, can coaches misconstrue if they're let's just say they're building a practice, and they're trying to make it fun for the kids. Right? Can they misconstrue what is fun? Like, what they think is fun, maybe not what the kid thinks is fun and vice versa?
Mhmm.
Scott: Is that
Jamie: a real thing?
Heather: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah? And that's that's one of the reasons. So my before I was with USA Hockey, I I worked at the George Washington University with I was able to work with my my thesis my thesis chair, doctor Amanda Visik, hired me on as her research associate for her NIH funded study.
And that right there is the reason why the government funded her her research was because the the the common misconception with adults is that, okay, we're gonna have a fun practice, so we're just gonna, you know, goof off, and we're just gonna just Right. You know, like Play
Jamie: game or whatever.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, growing up, was, hey. If you if everybody pays attention, everybody works hard, and we get through all of the drills that we need to get through
Jamie: At the end.
Heather: Have fun at the end. We'll play shinny before practice is over. Right? But what what the research has shown us is I mean, so we we asked players, parents, and coaches to define what makes playing sports fun for kids. And they came up with the original study came up with 81 actions and behaviors that that players, coaches, and parents can contribute to this fun experience for kids.
And we did we did research, and the original study was in in soccer. But we asked kids to don't just think about soccer, think about, you know, every sport that you play in to make sure that we could generalize it across team sports. And then we we did research with the Swedish Ice Hockey Federation, so we actually got it into to hockey. We did it with basketball, swimming. Amanda's continued to work with with tennis.
And it's remarkable how, consistent these principles and these tenets of fun are across the across sports in general. And one of the main things is, like, kids want to try hard. And that's something that I think that's a big misconception for for us as as adults because we think fun is, like, they're
Jamie: So funny you're
Heather: saying that. They're goofing off. Right? They're, like, look, if you're having fun, like, you're not playing triple a or tier one. Right?
If you're playing triple a tier one Yeah.
Jamie: That's the feeling. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. You're here to work. Like, this isn't here for fun.
Jamie: And Right.
Heather: I mean, I was told that my whole life, you know. Right. 12 years old, like, you're not here for fun. You're here to work. Like, well, can it be fun too?
I mean
Jamie: Right. Right. Feels a good job then. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. Exactly. Right? And and so if if we as adults understand what the kids are looking for, like and this is why I love the games based approach so much is because if you notice that if you have kids doing a basic drill or a block drill, you know, I always talk about, like, the example of, you know, working on stop starts transitions. I mean, how many times did we line up in the corner as as kids and you skated to one dot, you stop transitions, skate to the other dot, stop transitions, skate to the next dot, stop transition.
Right? And it's so easy to go through the motions in that situation because there's no competition. There's no decision It's boring. You know, I have to get through this. And if I'm if I'm skating hard, it's because of some external motivation.
Like, I don't want the coach to yell at me, scream at me, or chase me, you know, down the ice banging their stick, you know, telling me to skate harder. So that motivation to try hard comes from that external source. But as soon as you make it a a game or a competition, so we see it with we play, you know, trucks and trailers. It's basically one v one keep away. And you everybody's playing one v one keep away within the zone.
And it's you see how many stops, starts, transitions happen with the puck, but they'll those things are happening based on a read of off of a live opponent, which that skill will transfer to a game so much more effective than
Jamie: It's not a cone.
Heather: From dot to dot. Yeah. Exactly. And so but you notice their the intensity, as soon as you make it a competition, like, their effort goes through the roof. They want to try hard.
Oftentimes, we just haven't created the environment that will allow them to to have fun doing it. So that's it's all where where is the motivation for the behavior coming from? Is it coming from I wanna win this competition, or is it coming I don't wanna get yelled at by the coach? Very different outcomes.
Scott: Well, when you say the, being yelled at by the coach or where where that external motivation's coming from, just from, like, the, the mental the mental health side of things, you know, especially, you know, from, you know, children certainly that are playing tier one in a lot of instances where, like, the stakes are you know, feel really high and even sometimes when they're not, and, like, you have coaches that are super demanding, and you got parents that are super demanding. Like, just in terms of, like, how USA hockey is thinking about, like, mental health, and how coaches may, positively or negatively influence that in their their athletes and likewise for parents. Is there there any conversations that you've been having around that topic that you think, you know, maybe aren't touched upon, enough?
Heather: Yeah. And I think that in in our sports all around, this is something that is a is a huge priority, has to be a priority. That's one of the reasons why our our our manager of player safety, Kevin Margarucci, actually created an intern position that is that is solely around building resources for parents and coaches around how do you support, mental health and and mental performance. Two very different things, but they both are important for, you know, overall health, but also for from a from a performance standpoint that obviously impacts mental health as well. So those are some of the things that that we're doing from the national office is creating these resources and this is going to our goal is to make this a permanent internship so that we have we have graduate students and college students that are this is their field that they are going into and, you know, getting getting experience with the national office, but also helping us build those resources out for for coaches and parents.
And, you know, the other thing from a from a coaching education standpoint, it's interesting. Like, the as soon as I learned as soon as I I was taught these these how to coach skills, you know, that that explain, demonstrate, observe, analyze, make decisions, and and generate and provide feedback. That generating and providing feedback can be so impactful from a coaching standpoint. So you think about how we were coached as kids and it was, I'm the coach. You do what I said because I said so.
And, you know, there really wasn't a ton of, like, questioning back in the day. But now what we know is if we can coach through questioning, it becomes so much more impactful not just from a a player development standpoint, but also from a a coach athlete relationship standpoint. So it becomes a, like, a partnership versus a dictatorship. And and being able to, like, ask questions to get players to reflect, you know, we talk all the time about the the brain that does the thinking is the brain that does the learning. And so many times we, as coaches, we tell our players what to do, when to do it, where to do it, how to do it, and then when they come back to the bench, they tell them if they did it, and then we're, like, super pissed off that they don't know how to make decisions or think, you know?
But if you but if you just start asking questions, and so you can coach through questioning, and now you're engaging the player in that that experience, they have to actually think about what did I see on that last play? I made that pass, you know, right up the middle. And, you know, it's not that it necessarily was the the wrong play, but maybe I just didn't execute it rightly. So, like, hey, what did you see? What other options were out there?
You know, just coaching through questioning can be so impactful. And from a relationship standpoint, it feels less threatening oftentimes for the for the player when it's done right. And we don't have to I mean, look. There has to be discipline. There has to be structure.
There has to be respect. But they like, we don't have to yell at them all the time in order to get the outcome that we're looking for.
Jamie: So I am so curious to hear your response to this next question. So this was like a hot button topic that Scott and I were talking about on our last episode. And so Scott and I talked about effort a lot and, like, not passing the hockey puck, not back checking. As a coach, okay, how would you handle a couple kids on your team, boys or girls, doesn't matter, that we're not moving the hockey puck to the open person, or we're not giving effort on a back check? How do you, as coach Mannix, handle that?
I'm curious. So
Heather: the h, I think, will will impact the answer.
Jamie: Agreed. Let's hear let's hear the different tiers, I'm assuming. Right?
Heather: So alright. I can give you an example. Our ten year team. At that age, so eight years old, there it's still six, seven, eight. It's still like me and my puck.
Right? And and I am completely okay with bumblebee hockey. Like, I it's fine. Right? Because I want them to want the puck.
You'll start to see though the the older eight year olds and sometimes into the nine, like, you'll start to see the ones that figure out like, oh, if I just you know, I don't have to be in the scrum. If I'm right over here, I can get like, if that puck comes out, I'm I'm gone.
Jamie: I'm wide open. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: And so you start to see kids as their brain develops, they start to figure that out. But when it comes to when it comes to passing, when it comes to effort, we were we were in a situation where we knew we were gonna play a team that we had very there wasn't a chance that we were gonna beat this team. Like, the the the likelihood was that it was going to be a blowout. And we knew that if the girls were focused on the score on the board, that was absolutely going to impact their effort. And so what we did was we decided to play a game within the game, and we started doing a point system.
And so on the bench, I had the whiteboard and a marker, and I said, okay. For every time that we get stick on puck and create a turnover, we get a point as a team. Every time you make a pass, a tape to tape pass, you get a point. And every time we get a shot on net, we get five points because I knew there really wasn't gonna be a whole lot of shots. So I wanted to pump that one up.
And and what I saw and I told them, okay. So as a team, if we can get to at that time, it was 20 points. We bumped it up to 30 points because these girls are just their their effort is is through the roof now. But you said, as a team, if you can get 20 points, we're gonna give you a gummy bear. Between periods.
Right?
Jamie: Well, that's awesome. You had them on the bench. You're doling them on the bench.
Heather: Yeah. Awesome. And so after every shift, they would come back. How many points did I get? How many points did we get?
Jamie: They were so into it.
Heather: So into it. And then and what I was noticing was that the players that would have given up if they saw we're losing, you know, seven nothing, why should I even try? They were skating their little butts off. They were diving to get stick on pop.
Jamie: Well, that's
Heather: so good. It was insane. Like, the the the the level of compete that they had in that game was through the roof for the entire game. They had no idea at the end of the game that we lost. I think it was 17 nothing.
Jamie: Oh. But they had no clue.
Heather: No clue. Right? They they ran off the bench. They're all sugared up from their three gummy bears. Right.
And they, you know, they dogpile the goalie and, you know
Scott: No way.
Heather: That's awesome. Right? But their effort through the entire game was consistently high, and they didn't give up because of the score. So it's it like, it's about how do you incentivize that that behavior. As they start to get older, I think that you you can put constraints, you can you can play those games within practice to get kids to start to see that the their shared opportunities for action.
Right? So in the research, she called those affordances. But really what it is is just recognizing that there is an opportunity for a play and all of the kids or most of the kids on the ice can recognize that. And so in practice, if we create environments where we put constraints so that they start to see those opportunities, so getting a kid to pass. So many times we will we we put in in play, like, you have to pass five times before you can you can, you know, score a goal.
Well, what typically happens is you get two kids that go one, two, three, four, five And I could go. Great. But if you start if you say, you know, the amount the the goals count for the amount of passes your team made before you scored. If you score if you pass and you pass seven times and then you go and score, your team just got seven points. So you can you can put you can start to incentivize that behavior in practice.
But then as they get older, like, you can start to have a conversation with them. Right? Is, you know, this is about being a good teammate. What is what is being a good teammate mean? Does it mean, you know, leaving your your friends out to dry because you don't feel like back checking?
So there's a there's that combination of of starting to incentivize that behavior, but also, you know, having and setting those expectations at the beginning of the year of what does a good teammate look like. Let your kids define that at the beginning of the year. So ask them, you know, what does being a good teammate look like to you? And and then now you have core values as a team going into the year. So if you start to have situations and behavioral issues that start to vary or, you know, diverge from from those core values of what you set, you can bring those back to the team.
Hey. This is what we decided. This is what you guys defined as being a good teammate. Are you being a good teammate right now? How can we be a better teammate?
I mean,
Jamie: those are some
Heather: of the things that I've done.
Jamie: Kids at the older age for not moving the hockey puck or not back checking? Would you like bench kids?
Heather: At the at the older ages, if they are if they're they're purposefully doing it I mean, oftentimes, like, when we see that, they're they're so there's two things, two competing thoughts trying to come out of my head
Jamie: at the
Scott: same time.
Heather: So oftentimes, it's the kids that are are really good with the like, they they're really good. They they are rewarded because they they score often, and they don't wanna give up the puck because they're afraid that they're not going to get the puck back.
Jamie: I said that last week. Absolutely. Keep coming. Yes.
Heather: So so it's, you know, it's okay. Like, you have to learn how to trust your teammates. That comes into practice. How do we start to incentivize that behavior in practice? But then there's there's the other part of it.
It's it's really getting them to to see the big picture and the impact of their behavior. Right? So if you if you know that you're, you know, look, you're you're a goal scorer. Because what often happens is that the kids that at the older ages that don't want to pass the puck because they are successful when they have the puck on their stick, a lot of times the coaches before them, before you have basically said, hey, like, get Jamie the puck. Jamie is Jamie's gonna we know Jamie's gonna go end to end.
We Jamie the puck. Right?
Jamie: Say?
Heather: And so these kids grow up thinking, need to have the puck because if I don't have the puck, then we're not gonna win the game. And if we don't win the game, that's like and so a lot of times at the older ages when they get to you, it's because coaches have over time saw that the the quick win was get Jamie the puck. Well, now at 16 years old, Jamie thinks that he has to have the puck on his stick in order to win. And so if we can get coaches at the youngest ages to understand that this is where the winning right now versus winning long term in terms of the athlete's development, that's that's a perfect example of of how coaches can stunt an athlete's growth. If they are constantly get Jamie the puck because he can score and he can win for us
Jamie: And let him do what he wants to do Yeah. As opposed to the team game as a whole.
Heather: Exactly. Instead of saying, hey, Jamie, you're super fast with the puck. Try and get into the zone and buy time. Wait for your teammates. Like, how can you find space?
How can you, you know, protect the puck until you have options? Like, now you're starting to you're starting to challenge the the kid that is, look. If if the reward is there that I have the puck on my stick, when I have the puck on my stick, I score. When I score, we win. Like, all of those things are are rewarded behavior.
And so as coaches, that's where, you know, recognizing, like, the the short term win can can jeopardize long term development with with kids.
Scott: Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. So I I wanna kinda circle back to just, like, the the women's game or the girls' game. And it doesn't have to be limited to, like, the the youngest age groups, you know, even for any families listening that have girls that maybe, like, like, are high school bound or starting to think about college. You know, I I know there's there's so much, like, that that's different between those ages.
But just, you know, from where you're sitting and what you're seeing, out there in the ranks, in terms of girls hockey, is there anything that you know, advice that you might give parents, who are either, you know, looking to get into the game or are looking to make, you know, steps up to the next level? And and I know that's a broad question, but I just kinda wanna get your thoughts and feelings about the landscape of the girls' game.
Heather: Yeah. I think it's it is it's come such a long way, and it's it's so exciting to see where where it it's come from, where it is now, and and where it's going. And not just in The US, but, you know, worldwide, we're we're really starting to to see growth and development. And so getting into the game, I would tell parents, absolutely, let your your daughter is going to to want to play hockey one day. You should absolutely let her.
Right? Get her out there because holy moly, some of the the life lessons that you learn are they're next to next to nothing and the the camaraderie and, you know, I'm I'm speaking to the choir here. But as as, you know, like, as we get older, it's it's recognizing what are the what are the options that are out there. And and I think that's one of the exciting things about girls and women's hockey is that there are there are so many more options now at the at the higher levels than there ever was before. And and so, you know, like, yes, most girls aspire to want to play division one.
Not everybody is going to be able to play division one. You know? And getting getting girls to to start to think about, you know, I mean, now we have we have a professional league, which is really exciting because before it was, hey. College hockey is really cool, but what do you wanna do after? It's I think that that's still a very important question, especially at the division three and and and the ACHA level.
And that's one that's that's an area that is absolutely blowing up from from a a growth perspective. And there are so many really, really good options of of places to play that are still very, very competitive. ACHA is is more competitive now than it's ever been, and there are some teams that are that are ACHA teams that can beat division three teams. So, you know, that's a and that and that's a choice that that a player needs to make is where do I wanna go to school? What's a good fit for me?
And and, you know, what's the commitment level that I want? Like, NCAA sports are that's a that's a that's a huge commitment. Division one, it's like a it's like a job. It's a second job. You know?
Jamie: And Yeah.
Heather: And you have to, you know, also, like, be good at school if you wanna keep Yeah. Hockey. And and so I would tell them that from a standpoint of if if you wanna play call or if you wanna play hockey after high school, that academics is one of the most important things that you can focus on in high school because, I mean, that's something that I've always been told is, you know, if your if your academics aren't to a certain level, then you've already taken away a bunch of options that were that could have potentially been on the on the table for you. So first and foremost, it's, you know, focus on your academics and and that that keeps the doors open in terms of what colleges that you can go to. But I think that, you know, there are there are so many more options out there now than there ever have been.
And so, I I mean, shoot. I'm I'm still playing. I and this is where we talk about hockey for life. Right? It's it's if you can create the love at the youngest ages, that can get them through the tough times that they are going to experience.
And the hope and the goal is that, you know, as long as their bodies hold up, you know, that they keep playing for for as long as possible. So I I think that that's, you know, from a longevity standpoint of, you know, where the the women's game is. It's in it's in such a good place now. And and we're we're really lucky with USA Hockey that we have very good relationships with with our college coaches. They are a the the development pathway outside of USA Hockey that that we need in order to excel at the international level like we're seeing, you know, at the UA teams and then well, not the UA teams from college perspective, but, you know, the the collegiate series and and the women's national team.
The, you know, the the the college hockey pipeline is a is a critical component to to development to the highest levels, and we're very thankful that we have very good relationships with the with the college coaches out there.
Scott: Yeah. Know. It's an exciting time for women's hockey. My son my son, it was the other day. I I forget which game it was that he watched, but he's
Jamie: He's watching Finland, I think.
Scott: Was it Finland? And he goes, Ted, I was watching the women's hockey, and he's like, ew. Just ew.
Heather: It's so cool. It's so fun to watch.
Jamie: Yeah. It is. USA Hockey men's and women's. It's so great to watch right now. Yeah.
Fingers crossed it keeps getting better. Right?
Heather: I know. Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. So, Heather, do me a favor. Talk a little bit about the the refing part of what you guys do. Because I know we had Bob on, he was talking about, like, the green armband program that you guys are kinda rolling out. I don't think that the listen.
Hockey parents are not nice to refs. You know? It's it's a it's a it's not an easy job for them to do. It really isn't. It's it's not easy for them to do.
You know? But but talk a little bit about, you know, USA Hockey and the refing program that you guys kind of are are kind of kinda rolling out.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. The so full disclosure, not a ref, but big fan. Love the refs. You know, when I was playing, maybe a little bit more questionable on my
Jamie: Sure. Understood.
Heather: No. So it's funny because I've had the opportunity to to meet some really great people on that side, some that officiated at the the highest levels in the NHL. And and I joke that they've ruined me because now I'm watching four more people in every single game, like, it's too much. I there's too much to watch, you know. But, I find myself actually watching the referees almost as as much as I watch the the players sometime.
And I would I would challenge any parent to just watch the referees. And at the at the highest level, you see what they are expected to do. I mean, they are expected to stay out of the way. They are expected to navigate and dodge very large humans that are skating at a very high speed that you have to get out of the way for, you know, for, like, the game's sake, but also for your life. And, oh, by the way, you're supposed to be in position to make every single call perfectly because those are the expectations.
And so when you when you actually start to watch the officials in a game, it's amazing how what they're expected to do, the athleticism that that they need to have to be able to execute at the highest level, and and how far it's come from, you know, from even, you know, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. The game has changed so much. It's so much faster, and and the officials have to they have to be as athletic sometimes as the players to be able to keep up with it. So I would challenge parents to to actually watch referees and and just gain some respect for for that position and that role. And then you kind of extrapolate that down.
And it's it's tough. So, like, at the, you know, at the NHL and the college level, they have the ability the coaches have the ability to to have relationships and and rapport with with, you know, same or similar refs. And so they have those touch points, and so they can they can build that relationship. And those those coaches, their jobs depend on whether they win or lose, and so the stakes are really high. You take that down to youth sport, and you have to recognize again, like, what is the outcome and, like, and and does it actually matter in the big picture?
And then if you can answer that question and, you know, I won't say logically, but yes, if you can answer that question logically, then Yeah. Sometimes you can take a step back and and you can remove the emotion from the situation. And, like, hockey is an emotional emotional sport. We love that that passion and the emotion, but there is that that line that that needs to, you know, it needs to be clear. And as a coach, you really shouldn't step over it.
So When
Jamie: as a parent, you shouldn't step over it. Yes.
Heather: Absolutely. Yeah. There's look. I mean and I I say this too, like, I get it. Like, people say, you know, parents are crazy.
Parents are crazy. And they they absolutely are.
Jamie: Some are. Yeah.
Heather: It's true. Yeah. Absolutely. However, like, generally speaking, like, they are trying to do what's best for their kids with the information that they have. And, oh, by the way, like, you're watching your your heart, you know, living outside of your body, playing a very dangerous sport, and, you know, you want them in, like, your your you know, you want to protect them from from failure, from heartbreak, and there's so much emotion as a parent watching your kids play hockey.
And I totally understand and respect that. So from an education standpoint, that is one of the things that we're trying to do from you know, we're we're looking at in certain areas are piloting the the green armband. We've talked about putting a green crest. Right? So instead of having an armband where, like, who buys them, you know, does each ref, you know, keep them?
Like but with a green crest, it's anybody under 18, you know, and and we haven't passed this yet, but this is something that we're we're we're looking at. It's just a it is it's something that they have always on their on their chest. And so a coach should know at that point that this this is a child. Right? So maybe as a grown adult, I should not verbally abuse a child.
Like, I wouldn't do this on the street, you know, theoretically, most of the time. Most people wouldn't do that on the street, so it shouldn't be acceptable.
Jamie: She'd hope so.
Heather: Yeah. Just because you're you're in a rink. We're living in wild times, so, yeah, I don't know.
Jamie: Yes, are.
Heather: So so one of the things that we're doing on the education side is we're looking at trying to break down what does an official need to know in their first year. And and I think what we we have done in the past is we have tried to, and we did this with coaching education too, and and we're continuously trying to protect the level one because everybody it's just like player development. Everybody's like, no. No. No.
They have to know this in their first year. They have to know this in their first year. Well, then the next thing you know, they're drinking through a fire hose in their level one officiating clinic, and how much do they actually retain from from that. And so we're trying to figure out what what do they need to know to survive their first couple of games. Because we know that we can give them education in the classroom, but the real learning happens once you step out on the ice.
So it's our job to give them the best educational experience in the classroom, but recognize that the the the major growth in education and learning
Jamie: On the job training.
Heather: On the job. And and so that's where mentorship programs become hugely important in local associations. And and so there's there's things that that we can support at the local level, and that's what we're looking into. But from an education standpoint, we're looking at what does it like, what are the basics? The things that a a level one official needs to know before they get out on the ice.
Okay. So now the second year, they're they they got one year under their belt. They're coming back for level two. What do we build on, you know, from level one? And and so it's similar to the coaching education in the sense that the stuff in level two is going to build off of what happened in level one, and the stuff in level three is going to build off of what happened.
So we can try to scaffold it a little bit more realistic in in terms of what are they going to actually walk away and remember. And if we just try to get them to drink through a fire hose, the amount of things that we're they're actually going to remember is is, you know, a fraction of that. So
Scott: Right. So let me just, one other question about about officiating. And, like, when you speak to refs, those that are perhaps more seasoned or not, but, like, are there common themes? And I think I might know the answer to some extent. But are there common themes that they would come back and say, like, I wish parents wouldn't x, or if only this was different, it would be better?
Like, is it is it the obvious things, like, you know, like, the the yelling, the screaming, the cursing, or is there anything else that maybe parents might not be aware of that they could potentially do differently when they're, you know, at a rink?
Heather: Yeah. I honestly I've never seen a parent turn over a call or convince a ref to their mind. So when it when it comes to parents communicating with refs, the only time that that typically happens is if they're yelling or screaming through the glass. Hopefully, that's the only time that that communication is happening, but we have seen situations where parents have actually followed refs into locker rooms or, you know, into the into parking lots and things like things like that. So advice would be don't.
Scott: Yeah. That's it.
Jamie: That's
Heather: Knock it off. Well said. Yeah. Yeah. Don't.
Like, yeah. Like, there there really shouldn't be a time I I don't see any situation outside of like, a parent asking an official, hey, how do I become an official because you are so bad out there that I feel like I could do a better job? That never happens. But I mean, it's it's that's the only time that I think it would be appropriate for a a parent to communicate with an official is, like, how do I get into this? And I would I would absolutely implore parents to to to try that, or at least just become educated on the rules.
We say the same thing with coaches. There are so many times that coaches are yelling about something that they just don't know the rule. And if they knew the rule, then the likelihood is that they probably wouldn't be yelling in those situations. But it's a two way street. I think from a communication standpoint, like, there are some officials out there that are that are not necessarily very personable or, or nice for that matter.
And it's the the respect needs to be two ways. And so I don't think that coaches should be yelling at refs, but I also don't think that refs should be disrespectful to coaches. I mean, you think about this again, it's like, this is youth hockey. Like, it's like
Scott: Most important thing on the planet.
Heather: It is it is. And the the the kids are it is for the kids. It is for the Like and
Jamie: Yeah.
Heather: So many of the problems come from the parents and the adults and the and the coaches and the refs just not being able to get out of their own way.
Jamie: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So I'm curious. I think USA hockey gets a bad rep out there from parents.
I'm curious. What is something that I think what's like a common misconception that parents have about USA Hockey that you guys kind of hear about?
Heather: That's a
Jamie: good If there is one.
Heather: Yeah. No. Oh, I'm sure there's a lot. That's a that's a good one. I think that we don't do a great job of of talking about the the benefits of being with USA Hockey.
The you know, the there is research out there that shows the impact of having trained coaches versus untrained coaches and the experience from Absolutely. And we're one of the one of the few, maybe the only I'm trying to think. There might be a couple that that make it mandatory, but not to the scale that we I mean, we have last year, had 67,000 registered coaches. We put through on average about 30,000 of our coaches are actively going through our coaching education program each year. So I think that the value of of having a trained coach to to help guide your kids through this their their developmental experience, I think, is one of the biggest things that that we can that we can say that we provide from a from an education or from a from an overall, you know, membership standpoint from our kids.
But there are a lot of membership benefits that that I don't think we do a great job of of of Communicating? Mhmm. Yeah. So off the top of my head, I I I don't have one in in general, but I think that yeah. I would think that that's that's probably one of the the bigger ones is just understanding the the impact of having.
And that's not to say that just because you went through a USA hockey coaching education program that you're gonna be an excellent coach and provide a great developmental experience. But the the likelihood is that it's going to at least impact a little bit the the overall experience for your for your kids.
Jamie: Yeah. I I don't think USA Hockey gets enough credit for what you guys do. You see in the comment sections all the time on our Instagram, they're like, oh, USA Hockey is trying to take our money again.
Heather: I'm gonna say that actually, as soon as you said it, it's that USA Hockey is a money grab. That's probably one of the biggest misconceptions that
Jamie: And you know what? And and I that's why I'm I was curious to hear your thoughts because, you know, I and I wanna tell all these bonehead parents in the comment section, like, like, what? Like, they don't set the tuitions. Like, the game's expensive. It is what it is.
Like, you know, USA Hockey's not going, yeah. You know, you know, charge more to all the parents out there. They're stupid. They'll pay it. But it's a real it's a real thing, Heather.
It's a really bad misconception, and I think that you guys do a nice job. Again, I'm not trying to pump you or say hockey's tires, but I think you guys spend a lot of time in researching, you know, coaches and developing and raffing. And I I don't think you guys get enough credit for that.
Heather: Yeah. I think and then and it's tough. Right? I mean, there we're we're definitely we're absolutely cognizant of how how expensive the game has become. And, you know, like, yes, there is there is a component from a fee perspective of of of membership and from a from a coaching perspective of of getting your your coaching education.
A lot of times with, you know, people think, like, oh, we have to do we have to do so much. We have to do safe sport, do the background kind of we have to do this. We have to do that. And it's like safe bra safe sport and background checks are like, those are mandatory by congress. Like, any national governing body, coaches have to coaches or parents that are involved or or in contact with players have to go through SafeSport.
That is mandated through congress, and I think that's such a really important program. But I I do think that I I think that a lot of decisions and the the the things that impact the the family unit in terms of monetary impact, a a lot of that come from, you know, teams and associations and and things like that. And I think that the misconception is that this is all like, somehow USA Hockey is getting this money.
Jamie: Absolutely.
Heather: So, you know, the entrepreneurs out there that are, you know, trying to make a living in in youth sports that are that are costing parents and families that much money. Yeah.
Scott: Well, listen, Heather. We've been on the on the call. This interview has been going for quite some time, and I just wanna, you know, be mindful of of yours and just, you know, probably just wrap things up at this point. But, I mean, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I just wanna say thanks again so much for jumping on with us.
It was a real pleasure hearing about what you do at USA Hockey and and sharing, you know, all the good things that you guys got going on over there and also, you know, your take on the girls' game. Really It's great to hear.
Heather: Awesome. No. This has been a blast. I had no idea that we were on for this long.
Jamie: Yeah. It goes by quickly. It's funny you start talking hockey. I
Heather: know. Thank
Jamie: you, Heather. This was wonderful. We'll have to have you out again.
Scott: A 100%.
Heather: Definitely. I would love to.
Jamie: Thank you
Scott: so much. Alright. Let's go USA Women's Hockey.
Jamie: That's right.
Scott: Alright. Alright. Thanks again, Heather.
Jamie: Alright, everybody. We are back from our awesome interview with Heather Mannix from USA Hockey. Yeah. So much fun.
Scott: Amazing.
Jamie: I mean, definitely she it's like we wanna go out and have beers with her after. Right? Said that she said that after we stopped recording, like, a 100%.
Scott: Yeah.
Jamie: She was a ton of fun, man. It was great.
Scott: Yeah. No. And and like, you know, she's she's a lot of things that we've heard, you know, from from others who have been there, done that, but it's all it's always reassuring to hear it from, you know, people that are, you know, within USA Hockey. Yeah. You know, and one of the things that, you know, she you know, like, it's like, duh.
But, like, you know, no college scout is asking what your eight year old stats were. Mean, like, we hear that time and time again. You know? And just at the youngest ages, they have to love the game. Like, we were just talking about that as well.
It's like the most important thing because, you know and she did say what that there's still a lot of kids out there that are experiencing burnout, but they're still in the game. Yeah. And when it stops being fun
Jamie: I was just gonna say, it's big and big into fun.
Scott: Yeah. Which is huge. Yeah. And like Yeah. What did she say?
Like, when it stops being fun, that's when, like, kids that's the reason kids quit sports and not not just hockey, you know?
Jamie: No. No. It's not just hockey. Yeah. It's it's that's why parents need to kinda maybe relax a little bit Yep.
Or a lot of bit.
Scott: Just saying. Yeah. But we both know that even people who know better still still question
Jamie: This is true.
Scott: Whether or not they're doing the right thing. This is true. And and, you know, it's just it's We just talked about that. We just talked about it. Yeah.
And and it it it's like, well, while you might be able to see the a perspective, but then you look at your kid and you're like, does that really apply to my kid? Like, you know, and it's easy to start saying, well, my kids may be different or my kids this or my kids that. You know, and while some of these things might very well be true, you know, I I think that if you don't focus on the exceptions. Right? Because there are always be some exceptions and just like as a guiding light, look at some of these things and just, I don't know, maintain perspective.
It's never always gonna be like a one size fits all.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, listen. You know, he's you know, it it was great. I mean, I said he's you know, because I'm thinking about something else. My mind because I'm texting like six people while we're talking about this.
Scott: Oh, you know, I just wanna say thank you very much for your, attention and effort to this with what we're doing.
Jamie: Just Sorry. There's a lot going on, and it's late.
Scott: I just wanna say thanks again for trying to do your best. You know, we talk about this with our children all the time that like I'm having a rough night. That, you know, when you go out there, you just gotta give it your all and not to like, you know Listen. Do what you're doing.
Jamie: It is late and we are doing this and it is impressive that we are doing this at this late hour. I mean, we go above and beyond for our listeners. Wouldn't you say that's true?
Scott: Listen. I think we go above and beyond. Yeah. Ultimately, it's for the listeners, but like I'm just saying, you know, it's Yes. We do it because that's what we like to do.
Jamie: No. But but I'm really impressed with Heather. I like what she was saying about, not like the perfect coach. I I put her on the spot and I say, what what's the perfect coach look like? Or the perfect practice.
Right? But I'm I was actually I I want I really want coaches to hear this episode, by the way.
Scott: Yeah.
Jamie: Because I think that I love how USA Hockey does it. And I and, again, I'm not trying to pump USA hockey's tires, but I I think that they're onto something with the small area games, the puck touches, the competing factor in all the drills, the fact that they make them think. They're not just skating around cones to skate around cones. You know? I I like what USA hockey is doing, and Heather was talking about it a bunch.
I I I really like that. Like, I want coaches to hear this episode and take a lot from it and kinda tinker your practices to make them more like USA Hockey because I think it'll develop better hockey players. I do. Yeah. You know?
Like, I I I believe that that they are onto something.
Scott: Yeah. And and it's the the other part, you know, like we were talking about the development of the coach, but like also what did you say? Oh, it's escaping me. Oh, something about like like we needing making sure you're racing to the right finish line.
Jamie: Oh, yeah.
Scott: You know? Yeah. And that I thought that was also really well put. Yeah. Because if if your answer is for my son to be in the NHL, like, you know, listen.
There there's a time when that might be the finish line you're running to, but that's not when they're playing Yeah. Youth hockey.
Jamie: Yeah. I I would actually really like to see her, like, run a practice. I'd be really curious to see what that looks like.
Scott: Oh, well
Jamie: You know? I'm sure it's probably pretty sick.
Scott: Yeah. You know? And that was cool. Where she was going over to Tokyo, I think. Japan.
Japan?
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Need help.
Scott: I'm curious to hear how that went.
Jamie: Yes. We we should have her on again. Heather was a lot of fun. Yeah. She was a lot of fun.
Like, it was it was it was a great interview. Yeah. You know? I hope she comes on again with us. Yeah.
But, again, the the the the fun aspect, I think, you know, a lot of us parents, you know, sometimes break our kids' chops, and sometimes we make it less fun. I think
Scott: Yeah. But let Right? Yeah.
Jamie: Like, I think that's a a really big part of the game. You need to make sure this is fun for your kids because if it becomes a job, that's when your kid's not gonna wanna do it anymore.
Scott: Yeah. And that and that also doesn't mean, like, making it fun doesn't mean, like, not, you know, like, having your kid go through adversity and and having fun doesn't mean, you know, like all like, I don't know, puppy dogs and lollipops all the time because, know, it's But I think just from getting the kid to, you know, if they if they have to choose between I wanna go, you know, run outside on the fields or, you know, be inside on on a rink and maybe my coach isn't great and my dad keeps on pushing me there. Oh, maybe I'd love to be outside with my friends. Maybe that'd be better, you know?
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, listen, I get that. You know? And and you need to let the kids be kids too. Right?
I mean, like, you know, that we we say it all the time, you know, you you need to let the kids go be kids. Right? They can't just be doing, like, all hockey all the time or all lacrosse all the time or whatever the sport is. Right? You know?
But when they are doing the sport, it needs to be fun.
Scott: It needs to be fun.
Jamie: You know?
Scott: Yeah.
Jamie: That's a recurring theme of a
Scott: lot of
Jamie: people that we're talking to. Like, if this kid I mean and and they will also try harder at the sport if it's fun. Right? If they love if they they're passionate about the game and then you and as a parent, you're fostering that with your chill with your children, and they just love coming to the rink because it's fun. I mean, they just they try harder.
It's just a different it's just a different mindset when you enjoy what you're doing and when you're having a blast and when you're not pissed off and when you're not worried about what your parents gonna say. You know? So she's a big proponent of fun, and and I I agree with that a 100%.
Scott: Who doesn't like fun?
Jamie: Listen, Everybody likes fun, but like, you know, there there are certain drills. Right? Like bag skating, you know, bag skating is not fun. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I think that you can tail in listen.
Is is there an appropriate time for it? Maybe. You know? Why are you laughing?
Scott: I'm laughing about something that's not related to this, but it is related to fun.
Jamie: Oh, oh, gotcha. I don't I don't know where that's going, but I'm sure you'll
Scott: tell me afterwards. No. I'll tell you now.
Jamie: Oh, tell me now then.
Scott: So Orly and I were on a vacation and we there was a
Jamie: was like some kind of Was it this recently or is this a
Scott: No. It's like, you're kind of young. We're we're still adults. We were married at the time. Right.
Already had one kid. But anyway, so we we were talking to this another another another family, and this this woman, she was saying she was younger. Right. And she we're asking where she's from and she goes, oh. She goes, I'm from I'm from Canada.
I'm like, oh, no way. Like, where am in Canada? She goes, Regina. And I said Oh, boy. And she goes
Jamie: Where Conor Bedard played. But she
Scott: goes, know, Regina, you know, the the town that rhymes with Stop it. Fun.
Jamie: You know, I think you told me that story before. I I don't know why I forgot it. That's great.
Scott: When she starts there, like Regina, you know, town that rhymes with fun.
Jamie: That's that's fantastic, by
Scott: the way.
Jamie: That's she said to you?
Heather: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. That's tremendous. Yeah. What a great line that is, dude.
Scott: Yeah. That's good.
Jamie: No. But but she she was great. I I would love to have her on again. She was really insightful. I gotta tell you, all the USA hockey and I'm sure I'm gonna get roasted for saying this because listeners get mad at USA hockey.
But, like, all three people we've had on from USA hockey are all fucking rock stars.
Scott: Yeah. So much fun. Yeah. Well, I mean They've been great. But never mind the fun part.
It's just it's helpful to understand more about USA Hockey and, like, kinda how it works and, you know, the just learning more about, you know, the the whys behind a bunch of stuff has been been helpful in understanding their role and their place in all this and kind
Jamie: of what's important to them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
But I I listen. I I I I I'm I'm a big fan of of the three of them. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. We have definitely do it again. You know? But oh, and by the way, before I forget, because we didn't do it when we first when we first started this episode.
Scott: I wanna thank Big John Dangles because we didn't do it on the last episode.
Jamie: We didn't shit. Sorry, BJD. Our bad. Yeah. Sorry.
Thank you to Big John Dangles for doing our in our our intro. Thank you so much. BJD is a stud, And BJD BJD keeps popping up all over my Instagram. So the guy is now absolute rock star.
Scott: Yeah. He
Jamie: is. The like, he's if you if you're just listening to it, like Scott has said before, if you're just listening to it on our podcast Yeah. Go to YouTube. You should go to YouTube or you should check him out on his Instagram, bigjohndangles. It's so good.
Yeah. So so good.
Scott: It's a
Jamie: good name. Yes. It is a good name. And it's like you like you've said before, when you see it in person, you're like, oh, that's where that's coming from. Yeah.
When you hear it, it's different than when you hear
Scott: it I would have never thought that that's like what the whole thing is.
Jamie: So good.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie: So so good.
Scott: Yeah. Alright. My man. Well, good episode.
Jamie: Yes.
Scott: Time to sign off.
Jamie: Yes. Good good one. We'll see you guys in episode 63.
Scott: 63. Later, homeboy. Alright. Later. Bye.