1 00:00:11,843 --> 00:00:17,903 Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 2 00:00:18,413 --> 00:00:19,913 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 3 00:00:19,913 --> 00:00:22,613 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 4 00:00:22,613 --> 00:00:22,673 Okay. 5 00:00:35,984 --> 00:00:37,604 to Transformative Principle. 6 00:00:37,634 --> 00:00:39,044 I am your host Jethro Jones. 7 00:00:39,179 --> 00:00:39,299 I. 8 00:00:39,374 --> 00:00:44,084 my good friend Danny Bauer here with me and we are continuing our reject the premise. 9 00:00:44,489 --> 00:00:48,029 Book writing creation thing, whatever we're doing. 10 00:00:48,509 --> 00:00:59,459 It's been a while since we released one of these episodes, uh, and it's been a while on my podcast, especially because we are alternating between Transformative Principal and better leaders, better schools. 11 00:00:59,819 --> 00:01:10,169 And what we did about a year ago is we started writing a book and we made all these great ideas and did all these note cards, and then we both just let the pro the project go. 12 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:12,209 And then after a while we got. 13 00:01:13,004 --> 00:01:16,274 You know, we talk all the time and so we said, Hey, we should do something with this. 14 00:01:16,694 --> 00:01:23,774 And so we decided we're gonna record these episodes and then write a book from this and see what comes of it. 15 00:01:23,774 --> 00:01:31,484 So in the show notes today, you can find the link to part one of this and which was on Danny's No on Danny's podcast. 16 00:01:31,484 --> 00:01:32,864 Part two is on my podcast. 17 00:01:32,864 --> 00:01:37,394 Part three was on Danny's podcast, and this is part four, uh, of this. 18 00:01:37,394 --> 00:01:41,534 And we did like 46 cards, so this could go on. 19 00:01:41,969 --> 00:01:54,359 For a while, and we're not putting any pressure on ourselves to do this in any certain kind of way or, or anything like that because we're just gonna let it go with the flow and, uh, and release them as they come. 20 00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:57,329 So, uh, welcome and I hope you enjoy this. 21 00:01:57,329 --> 00:02:08,309 What we do is we go through each one of these premises that we have and why we should reject these ideas, reject the premise, and do something different instead. 22 00:02:08,339 --> 00:02:08,729 So 23 00:02:08,969 --> 00:02:09,149 Hmm. 24 00:02:09,239 --> 00:02:10,319 want to add to that, Danny? 25 00:02:11,339 --> 00:02:11,669 Yeah. 26 00:02:11,729 --> 00:02:13,529 Reject what we have to say too, right? 27 00:02:13,529 --> 00:02:14,789 So like that's the whole idea. 28 00:02:15,764 --> 00:02:26,924 The point is that you're thinking for yourself and that, you know, our assertion is, is at times school leaders are sort of given here's how we think about school. 29 00:02:27,074 --> 00:02:33,554 And you know, one of my mentors, Christopher Lockhead says, thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking. 30 00:02:33,674 --> 00:02:34,094 Right? 31 00:02:34,484 --> 00:02:38,024 And so don't just, uh, passively accept. 32 00:02:38,609 --> 00:02:45,629 What the system says, you know, what your colleagues say, even what Jethro and I, you know, talk about on the show. 33 00:02:45,839 --> 00:02:47,069 If you agree with us, great. 34 00:02:47,069 --> 00:02:48,419 If you disagree with us, great. 35 00:02:48,419 --> 00:02:49,079 Tell us why. 36 00:02:49,469 --> 00:02:51,269 Let's have a conversation on social media. 37 00:02:51,809 --> 00:03:03,689 Make it social again, less about, uh, politics and stuff that's just like gonna make people upset, but let's have real discussions right about, about school leadership and doing school, different things that we're passionate about. 38 00:03:03,689 --> 00:03:11,459 So I think that's, that's all I have to add is don't even accept what we have to say, um, as, as truth either. 39 00:03:11,459 --> 00:03:13,949 If it is for you, awesome. 40 00:03:13,979 --> 00:03:15,484 If it's not awesome. 41 00:03:17,054 --> 00:03:17,414 Yeah. 42 00:03:17,414 --> 00:03:26,444 And and the beauty is, is that as you define what you believe better, you actually attract people to you who believe what you believe. 43 00:03:26,504 --> 00:03:27,134 And. 44 00:03:27,854 --> 00:03:35,054 Even if you, uh, even if somebody completely disagrees with what you think, they at least know where you stand. 45 00:03:35,264 --> 00:03:45,584 And, and one of the, the real tragedies is that, we just, we don't understand where people stand enough, in my opinion. 46 00:03:45,734 --> 00:03:51,284 And we think that, yeah, we're all in school, so we all do it the same way and we all think the same things. 47 00:03:51,284 --> 00:03:55,964 And, uh, and thus one, not good for everybody. 48 00:03:56,324 --> 00:03:57,104 And two. 49 00:03:57,479 --> 00:04:01,739 That's not good for you yourself when you're just going along and going with the flow. 50 00:04:01,739 --> 00:04:04,079 So we're gonna get started here. 51 00:04:04,169 --> 00:04:09,059 Uh, our first one, uh, the, the, the premise is a question. 52 00:04:09,059 --> 00:04:10,139 What is good teaching? 53 00:04:10,529 --> 00:04:24,659 And, uh, and instead of asking what good teaching looks like, and this is something that I've been ranting on for, for a couple of years now, is schools should really be about learning, as a whole. 54 00:04:24,659 --> 00:04:25,409 First of all. 55 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:27,719 I have two answers. 56 00:04:27,749 --> 00:04:29,609 Two new premises to adopt here. 57 00:04:29,609 --> 00:04:40,169 One is that school should be about learning, not about teaching, and the second is, who are the kids becoming as a result of being in the school and the academic stuff. 58 00:04:40,469 --> 00:04:47,699 You know, I am sure I've said this before, but every time I do a speech or something, I ask people what they remember about their. 59 00:04:48,149 --> 00:04:50,849 Uh, their own K 12 education experience. 60 00:04:51,959 --> 00:04:59,339 it is never about the lessons or about the tests or about anything that we put so much intentionality into. 61 00:04:59,609 --> 00:05:08,369 It's almost always about who the teachers were, who they believed the kids could become, and, and what they really became is what mattered. 62 00:05:08,849 --> 00:05:10,379 What, what would you add there, Danny? 63 00:05:11,984 --> 00:05:13,154 It's not about the test. 64 00:05:13,154 --> 00:05:13,634 Jethro, 65 00:05:15,089 --> 00:05:15,929 I know, it's crazy. 66 00:05:16,349 --> 00:05:16,979 It's crazy. 67 00:05:17,294 --> 00:05:23,384 what's, what's wild about it is that, you know, obviously like the system and, and, and, um, politics. 68 00:05:23,384 --> 00:05:25,784 Like they put so much pressure on that outcome. 69 00:05:26,384 --> 00:05:28,244 Oh, what, what, what, what city is that? 70 00:05:28,244 --> 00:05:28,994 Starbucks Cup. 71 00:05:29,339 --> 00:05:33,449 Oh, uh, this is from Berlin where I went with my daughter this summer. 72 00:05:33,734 --> 00:05:35,204 Yeah, that's nice. 73 00:05:35,249 --> 00:05:37,049 So I bring one of these back. 74 00:05:37,079 --> 00:05:43,319 I, I got one from Prague also, and, had a great time over there in Europe. 75 00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:43,949 By the way, 76 00:05:44,654 --> 00:05:45,164 Right on. 77 00:05:45,269 --> 00:05:46,439 since I went, have 78 00:05:46,484 --> 00:05:49,064 No, so I, you know, I feel comfortable just going on a tangent. 79 00:05:49,454 --> 00:05:53,684 Um, and Miriam was just in, uh, Bangkok and, uh, Dubai. 80 00:05:53,954 --> 00:05:55,904 So she got one from both of those cities. 81 00:05:56,549 --> 00:05:57,719 Those cups are massive. 82 00:05:57,719 --> 00:05:59,339 We're talking about Starbucks cups. 83 00:05:59,339 --> 00:06:00,479 If you're not seeing the video. 84 00:06:01,019 --> 00:06:01,499 Uh, 85 00:06:01,649 --> 00:06:03,119 been there series. 86 00:06:03,509 --> 00:06:04,559 yeah, they've been there series. 87 00:06:04,559 --> 00:06:08,159 But you know, I think that's an, um, illustrative. 88 00:06:08,249 --> 00:06:08,939 Is that a word? 89 00:06:09,359 --> 00:06:10,469 Uh, it's it, 90 00:06:10,714 --> 00:06:11,014 it is. 91 00:06:11,129 --> 00:06:11,579 yeah. 92 00:06:11,639 --> 00:06:12,239 It's, it's show. 93 00:06:12,239 --> 00:06:13,019 It's showing. 94 00:06:13,409 --> 00:06:26,849 Um, learning in a sense, you know, you, you, you, uh, purchased a memento by getting out of the sort of the box, the four walls of the classroom and making the world the classroom opens up a, a world of possibility. 95 00:06:26,879 --> 00:06:27,179 Right. 96 00:06:27,179 --> 00:06:28,139 And what you can learn. 97 00:06:28,559 --> 00:06:30,659 And, you know, I know you've lived overseas. 98 00:06:30,659 --> 00:06:36,594 I've lived overseas for, for a while, uh, and getting out of your comfort zone, that's a part of learning too. 99 00:06:37,109 --> 00:06:37,529 Right. 100 00:06:37,769 --> 00:06:39,209 How do we measure that on a test? 101 00:06:39,239 --> 00:06:42,329 Where does it say like, how were you pushed and challenged and stretched? 102 00:06:42,389 --> 00:06:43,109 You know what I mean? 103 00:06:43,589 --> 00:06:47,819 Uh, instead of like, X's and O's and A, B, C, and D, and what's the correct answer? 104 00:06:47,819 --> 00:06:48,749 True and false. 105 00:06:49,229 --> 00:06:52,499 Um, I really love what you're saying about who students are becoming. 106 00:06:52,499 --> 00:06:59,759 So I, I, I haven't interviewed her yet, um, but the founder of the Alpha School in, uh, Dallas, Texas, and they're popping up everywhere. 107 00:06:59,764 --> 00:07:01,169 Have, have you seen those? 108 00:07:01,229 --> 00:07:01,499 Yeah. 109 00:07:01,559 --> 00:07:01,919 Yeah. 110 00:07:01,949 --> 00:07:02,369 Yeah. 111 00:07:02,499 --> 00:07:03,659 have you interviewed her yet? 112 00:07:04,709 --> 00:07:08,374 uh, no I haven't, but she's been on several different shows on the podcast network, so. 113 00:07:09,089 --> 00:07:09,629 Oh, cool. 114 00:07:09,809 --> 00:07:12,719 that she's, she's been on a bunch of these and, um, yeah, 115 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:13,349 Yeah. 116 00:07:13,469 --> 00:07:15,629 it's really fascinating stuff, what she's doing. 117 00:07:15,899 --> 00:07:16,259 Yeah. 118 00:07:16,319 --> 00:07:24,809 And a big deal, you know, networks like CBS and NBC, you know, like the, the, the local news type of stuff, they're featuring her and why 'cause she's doing school different. 119 00:07:24,869 --> 00:07:25,139 Right. 120 00:07:25,139 --> 00:07:30,779 And I'm sure it's making some people upset potentially because it's really turning the model upside down. 121 00:07:31,079 --> 00:07:34,139 And we have to grant that she has a lot of flexibility. 122 00:07:34,139 --> 00:07:35,879 It's a private school, right? 123 00:07:36,209 --> 00:07:37,889 So you have a little bit more, um. 124 00:07:38,144 --> 00:07:43,244 Opportunity to be creative, but I think there's lessons you can learn from there still. 125 00:07:43,574 --> 00:07:49,484 And, uh, it gives you permission to disrupt and innovate within, uh, a traditional space. 126 00:07:49,514 --> 00:07:54,434 That's what I say when we talk about ruckus makers do school different and rejecting the premise. 127 00:07:54,434 --> 00:08:00,854 The whole point of view is always that it's about re-imagining what's possible even in a traditional setting. 128 00:08:01,244 --> 00:08:08,504 So that you create a campus experience where it's showing up for, so back to Alpha School, and I'm looking forward to interviewing her. 129 00:08:08,804 --> 00:08:17,654 They, they compact the teaching and learning to two hours, two hours and leverage ai, right? 130 00:08:17,954 --> 00:08:24,919 They're seeing their students get, uh, more gains than traditional sort of ways of teaching. 131 00:08:25,334 --> 00:08:27,759 And then what do they do with all the rest of the time? 132 00:08:28,694 --> 00:08:31,244 They answer that question, who are the students becoming? 133 00:08:32,024 --> 00:08:37,574 They're teaching them to be good people, be good, responsible members of, uh, society. 134 00:08:38,054 --> 00:08:41,804 Um, they're, they're, they're pursuing passion projects. 135 00:08:42,164 --> 00:08:46,274 They're doing stuff that you just need to learn how to do, like ride a bike if you're a little kid. 136 00:08:46,304 --> 00:08:46,694 Right? 137 00:08:47,114 --> 00:08:48,674 Uh, it's, it's really interesting. 138 00:08:48,674 --> 00:08:53,264 But, you know, that, that's what I miss from a, from a school experience. 139 00:08:53,654 --> 00:08:54,824 Um, I'll never forget Chicago. 140 00:08:56,384 --> 00:09:00,854 You know, oh, reading scores down, call, you know, sound the alarms, right? 141 00:09:00,854 --> 00:09:03,674 Math scores, abyssal, whatever. 142 00:09:04,094 --> 00:09:12,464 And the mayor at the time, Ram Emanuel, you know, here's the thing, doing more of what you're already doing doesn't mean you're gonna get a better result. 143 00:09:12,854 --> 00:09:13,274 Right? 144 00:09:13,424 --> 00:09:13,714 Yeah. 145 00:09:14,204 --> 00:09:17,144 if the results are already, uh, suboptimal. 146 00:09:17,354 --> 00:09:23,024 And so the answer was, we're just gonna make all those poor public school kids go to school longer. 147 00:09:23,399 --> 00:09:26,879 And get extra doses of reading, not more effective. 148 00:09:27,089 --> 00:09:31,439 We're gonna give you the, the same slop, just a bigger bowl of it. 149 00:09:31,469 --> 00:09:31,949 Right? 150 00:09:32,159 --> 00:09:32,519 Yep. 151 00:09:32,639 --> 00:09:33,509 is like. 152 00:09:34,169 --> 00:09:34,949 you're dumb. 153 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:41,219 So we're gonna make you go to school longer and make you feel even more dumb, and we're gonna keep telling you that you're dumb 'cause you're not getting this. 154 00:09:41,219 --> 00:09:42,119 It's ridiculous. 155 00:09:42,119 --> 00:09:42,329 I don't 156 00:09:42,374 --> 00:09:44,444 Yeah, it's, it's wild. 157 00:09:44,444 --> 00:09:58,004 And, and then they cut from the arts, they cut from, you know, pe uh, stuff that kids really need to be a kid, especially like, this isn't worldwide, but in the US you don't even see kids being kids as much anymore. 158 00:09:58,364 --> 00:10:03,499 And I'm, I'm guessing like you used to hop on your bike and your parents were like, don't come home until dinner. 159 00:10:04,634 --> 00:10:05,534 Have you done your homework? 160 00:10:05,534 --> 00:10:06,134 Yes. 161 00:10:06,464 --> 00:10:09,464 You know, and then don't come home until dinner. 162 00:10:09,464 --> 00:10:11,534 And that doesn't happen as much in the US anymore. 163 00:10:11,534 --> 00:10:13,304 Other places it certainly does. 164 00:10:13,754 --> 00:10:14,714 Reasons for that. 165 00:10:14,744 --> 00:10:16,064 Not gonna get into it now. 166 00:10:16,514 --> 00:10:19,484 Um, but you learn stuff as you're out there exploring. 167 00:10:19,814 --> 00:10:27,554 I remember even like being across the street, crossing Robinson Avenue, going to the park, and boys bigger than me. 168 00:10:27,944 --> 00:10:34,784 Whooped my butt and threw these crab apples, hit me in the eye, black eye, all terrible stuff. 169 00:10:35,204 --> 00:10:39,644 Uh, but it also was sort of a learning moment, how to defend myself and what to do. 170 00:10:39,944 --> 00:10:41,054 I survived, right? 171 00:10:41,054 --> 00:10:41,684 Thank God. 172 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:42,119 Yeah. 173 00:10:42,374 --> 00:10:46,394 like, you don't get that if you're always in a bubble, you, uh, staying at home. 174 00:10:47,264 --> 00:10:53,504 So, um, I like the idea of who, who our students, who our students becoming, and that focus from teaching and learning. 175 00:10:54,854 --> 00:11:02,939 So, uh, one thing I want to add about Alpha School, I've talked to Mackenzie and several other people at Alpha School about what they're doing, and 176 00:11:03,089 --> 00:11:03,419 Yeah. 177 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,859 the, the idea, excuse me, is, is actually. 178 00:11:07,714 --> 00:11:19,834 Quite similar to what, uh, I did at, uh, in Fairbanks where we had the synergy time and we had kids work on passion projects and we were doing all that stuff without AI and without the support of it. 179 00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:20,639 Hm. 180 00:11:20,704 --> 00:11:28,084 amazing is that they've taken this idea that if there are discreet pieces of information that we want kids to learn. 181 00:11:28,474 --> 00:11:28,894 Mm-hmm. 182 00:11:29,009 --> 00:11:37,229 do that as fast and as quickly as simply as possible, and break it down so small that we know exactly what it is that they're missing. 183 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,139 And then we just make sure that they get that thing. 184 00:11:40,709 --> 00:11:57,959 And then with all the other stuff that takes so much more time, we should be things that are exciting, interesting, fun, enjoyable, but also hard, and put kids in these uncomfortable situations intentionally so that we can see. 185 00:11:58,259 --> 00:11:59,849 The kind of people that they're becoming. 186 00:12:00,179 --> 00:12:05,759 Martin Luther King Jr. Said the function of education is to teach one, to think intensively and to think critically. 187 00:12:06,119 --> 00:12:24,929 Intelligence plus character, that is the true goal of education I love that because it doesn't matter how smart you are if you are a terrible person and, and that is really something that is lacking in our education system, that we focus so much on these other things. 188 00:12:25,409 --> 00:12:42,209 And then we try to teach SEL and how to be a good person in character as lessons like we're teaching these other things, you know, like to teach, uh, addition up to 10 or up to a hundred in the same way that you're trying to teach how to be a good person. 189 00:12:42,209 --> 00:12:45,149 And the thing is, is that everybody in a vacuum. 190 00:12:45,524 --> 00:12:53,144 Knows what the right answer and can give it for the character issues, but it's how you actually act that really matters. 191 00:12:53,174 --> 00:13:12,674 And, and so my, my picture for this one is a report card with all of the, uh, character, social, emotional, uh, different aspects of who the kid is becoming, uh, listed out with, uh, descriptions and, and words describing it. 192 00:13:12,674 --> 00:13:13,484 So it's not just. 193 00:13:14,369 --> 00:13:18,809 You know, you passed it and then the academic stuff is just, yes, you got it. 194 00:13:18,809 --> 00:13:26,249 And that's what the thing that I really love about what Alpha School's doing is that they are saying, check all these boxes off. 195 00:13:26,279 --> 00:13:27,479 It's important to learn it. 196 00:13:27,659 --> 00:13:33,539 You need to be smart and have this information, but we can break it down in such a small way that we can get it done quickly. 197 00:13:33,779 --> 00:13:42,459 And then let's work on the real education, which is teaching you how to resilient, have grit, have a growth mindset, all these things that. 198 00:13:43,214 --> 00:13:46,634 we talk about and say we want an education, but we don't ever make the time for 199 00:13:48,194 --> 00:13:48,764 That's good. 200 00:13:49,184 --> 00:13:49,814 I like it. 201 00:13:51,434 --> 00:14:00,944 You know, I'll just, the last like 30 seconds, um, you remember last year in the football season, uh, was it AJ Brown? 202 00:14:00,944 --> 00:14:01,574 Is that his name? 203 00:14:01,574 --> 00:14:03,344 The wide receiver from the Eagles? 204 00:14:03,764 --> 00:14:04,364 Um. 205 00:14:04,889 --> 00:14:07,619 Philadelphia fans, you know, you're passionate about your team. 206 00:14:07,619 --> 00:14:14,129 If I mess that up, you could, uh, go ahead and, uh, send your hate mail to Jethro at Transformative Principal dot com. 207 00:14:14,549 --> 00:14:16,319 But anyway, uh, 208 00:14:18,389 --> 00:14:19,829 he, he scored a touchdown. 209 00:14:20,234 --> 00:14:23,384 And was then obviously resting. 210 00:14:23,474 --> 00:14:24,944 Um, on the sideline. 211 00:14:25,274 --> 00:14:26,294 He was reading a book. 212 00:14:26,384 --> 00:14:29,324 I got the book right here because I saw him holding it. 213 00:14:29,414 --> 00:14:30,254 Inner excellence. 214 00:14:30,254 --> 00:14:30,554 Right. 215 00:14:30,614 --> 00:14:33,074 I didn't buy it right away, but I remembered that moment. 216 00:14:33,074 --> 00:14:38,594 And what a great, what a great, uh, word of mouth, like sort of, you know, advertising campaign. 217 00:14:38,594 --> 00:14:41,654 Like it wasn't planned, it's just, you know, so he is reading it. 218 00:14:42,014 --> 00:14:42,704 Good book. 219 00:14:42,824 --> 00:14:43,394 Um. 220 00:14:43,784 --> 00:14:45,494 Yeah, very interesting. 221 00:14:45,824 --> 00:14:47,024 I think it could be shorter. 222 00:14:47,114 --> 00:14:47,714 That's okay. 223 00:14:47,714 --> 00:14:49,244 That's just a critique. 224 00:14:49,664 --> 00:14:50,324 You know what I mean? 225 00:14:50,324 --> 00:14:52,574 There's, there's, there's fluff, like with a lot of books. 226 00:14:52,994 --> 00:15:08,204 Uh, but the big lesson that I learned, and it was super helpful, uh, I realized how much I'm still focused and chasing sort of outcomes, you know, and, and putting, uh, too much of my worth on sort of external validation. 227 00:15:09,014 --> 00:15:17,559 Um, that is ultimately outta my control and the whole bo point of the book, um, as you can guess from the title, it's all about the inside. 228 00:15:18,869 --> 00:15:20,639 To your point, who are the students becoming? 229 00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:24,509 Who are we becoming and really making that the focus. 230 00:15:24,509 --> 00:15:26,189 That's the game that we're playing. 231 00:15:26,609 --> 00:15:31,949 And if you can sort of master that, you let the chips and the cards fall as they will. 232 00:15:32,279 --> 00:15:36,899 Uh, but you could still be happy that you showed up in the type of person with integrity that you want to be. 233 00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:37,679 You know what I mean? 234 00:15:37,859 --> 00:15:43,439 And so that is, that is the essential piece that, um, we should be focused more on. 235 00:15:43,999 --> 00:15:47,599 Whether it's school, business, society, writ large. 236 00:15:47,659 --> 00:15:48,979 So that's all I'll say there. 237 00:15:49,069 --> 00:15:49,489 I'm done. 238 00:15:51,164 --> 00:15:52,274 Yeah, that's good. 239 00:15:52,754 --> 00:15:56,174 Um, I've been pondering a lot about that kind of stuff also, 240 00:15:56,454 --> 00:15:56,744 Yeah. 241 00:15:57,224 --> 00:15:59,924 um, my kids actually said something to me. 242 00:16:00,629 --> 00:16:10,859 other day we were talking about life and stuff and they said, all these, all these worldly outside our family, things are not going 243 00:16:11,244 --> 00:16:11,664 Mm-hmm. 244 00:16:11,699 --> 00:16:12,269 them to. 245 00:16:12,749 --> 00:16:23,219 But we have a great family and we know we have parents that love us and like to hear my kids say that we're doing a great job as parents and they're teenagers, man. 246 00:16:23,369 --> 00:16:26,129 Like none of that other stuff matters at all. 247 00:16:26,429 --> 00:16:29,134 And, and so, know, that's. 248 00:16:29,834 --> 00:16:41,234 Focus less on the, on the, the outcomes that seem so important and more on the ones that you know are important and, and that's powerful. 249 00:16:41,984 --> 00:16:42,204 Yep. 250 00:16:42,344 --> 00:16:43,004 That's good. 251 00:16:43,784 --> 00:16:47,864 Uh, next one is, uh, this one. 252 00:16:47,864 --> 00:16:49,544 There are a couple different ways that we phrase this. 253 00:16:49,544 --> 00:16:53,084 Number one, because you haven't done my exact role, you can't lead me. 254 00:16:53,999 --> 00:16:59,489 something along the lines of principals need to have been in the classroom for at least a decade to be an effective principal. 255 00:17:00,119 --> 00:17:04,934 Uh, what's your an, what's the new premise after we reject that one? 256 00:17:05,729 --> 00:17:11,219 I mean, the idea that you have to have a decade of experience or whatever, you know? 257 00:17:11,249 --> 00:17:11,519 'cause 258 00:17:13,979 --> 00:17:30,509 social media, man, people on social, like I remember posting something from a Gallup, and this was research that they did recently within the last couple years, and they've found that 53% of students were disengaged from school. 259 00:17:30,539 --> 00:17:33,299 This is a. I, this is an alarm. 260 00:17:33,329 --> 00:17:37,049 This is a terrible critique of the campus experience, right? 261 00:17:37,259 --> 00:17:40,859 It's not worth showing up for, is what it says. 262 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:43,529 Fi over half your kids, Jethro. 263 00:17:43,529 --> 00:17:46,349 53% say I'm totally checked out. 264 00:17:46,409 --> 00:17:46,769 Right? 265 00:17:47,309 --> 00:17:54,719 Uh, and when I, when I posted that my follow up was the, the problem is clear. 266 00:17:54,809 --> 00:17:58,319 Students aren't creating a can't miss experience, right? 267 00:17:59,189 --> 00:17:59,909 So. 268 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:01,679 creating a can't miss experience. 269 00:18:01,859 --> 00:18:02,399 did I say? 270 00:18:02,969 --> 00:18:03,684 You said students. 271 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:05,039 Oh, yeah. 272 00:18:05,549 --> 00:18:06,209 Naughty Danny. 273 00:18:06,269 --> 00:18:06,599 Okay. 274 00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:09,689 Schools, schools aren't creating a can't miss experience. 275 00:18:09,749 --> 00:18:15,029 And so man, teachers, they were upset, Jethro. 276 00:18:15,389 --> 00:18:22,409 And essentially their, their responses to me is, um, I'm not bozo the clown. 277 00:18:22,409 --> 00:18:24,329 I don't work at Ringling Brothers. 278 00:18:24,719 --> 00:18:27,059 Uh, I'm not gonna do a dog and pony show. 279 00:18:27,659 --> 00:18:29,489 And the interesting thing about that. 280 00:18:29,579 --> 00:18:30,239 the point. 281 00:18:30,659 --> 00:18:31,469 Thank you. 282 00:18:31,769 --> 00:18:36,569 I'm glad you caught that because like hundreds, right? 283 00:18:36,599 --> 00:18:45,599 This, this, this, this post really took off and there was a lot of upset feelings and I'm like, why is everybody saying it has to be this like show? 284 00:18:45,899 --> 00:18:46,859 Who said that? 285 00:18:46,859 --> 00:18:47,249 Yeah. 286 00:18:47,309 --> 00:18:50,939 I said, schools aren't creating a can't miss experience. 287 00:18:51,209 --> 00:18:53,099 Like to this basics. 288 00:18:53,369 --> 00:18:57,059 You have something that's so interesting that's gonna happen. 289 00:18:57,419 --> 00:18:58,469 On campus. 290 00:18:58,829 --> 00:18:59,879 I'm not staying home. 291 00:18:59,879 --> 00:19:00,899 I gotta get there. 292 00:19:00,959 --> 00:19:01,259 Right. 293 00:19:01,529 --> 00:19:03,449 Even if it's something social. 294 00:19:03,569 --> 00:19:04,109 Right. 295 00:19:04,529 --> 00:19:07,049 Uh, or, or, or back to travel. 296 00:19:07,109 --> 00:19:13,829 You know, you were talking about, uh, we went, we went to London to, to, to march in the New Year's Day parade. 297 00:19:13,919 --> 00:19:14,309 Right. 298 00:19:14,429 --> 00:19:24,959 And I'm sure, I don't remember at the time, I bet there was like, you know, grade and behavior stuff maybe around that, you know, uh, to incentivize that we go, uh, but at the same time. 299 00:19:25,859 --> 00:19:27,839 Um, there's no way I was gonna miss that trip. 300 00:19:27,989 --> 00:19:29,909 Going to London marching the New Year's Day parade. 301 00:19:29,909 --> 00:19:30,599 That's amazing. 302 00:19:31,049 --> 00:19:32,819 And so are we doing it or not? 303 00:19:32,879 --> 00:19:36,659 You don't have to dress up like a clown, you know, that is not the point. 304 00:19:37,049 --> 00:19:39,779 You could, you could be like boring and monotone. 305 00:19:40,739 --> 00:19:43,619 Whatever, but still create experience that kids want. 306 00:19:43,769 --> 00:19:44,249 Right? 307 00:19:44,339 --> 00:19:47,699 And they'd still come, you know, so you don't need all this flash. 308 00:19:47,699 --> 00:19:49,319 It doesn't require resources. 309 00:19:49,649 --> 00:20:00,299 And what I, what I think it re requires that is connected to principals needing a decade, uh, you know, to be an effective principal, uh, experience as a teacher. 310 00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:02,789 No, you, you, you need a curiosity. 311 00:20:02,879 --> 00:20:04,349 You need a empathy, right? 312 00:20:04,349 --> 00:20:06,839 You need leadership and, um. 313 00:20:07,174 --> 00:20:14,314 It's, it's like about being, having the right skills, uh, to be that leader versus, um, versus the resume. 314 00:20:14,494 --> 00:20:18,634 You know, the old way is that you put in your years, right? 315 00:20:19,324 --> 00:20:25,504 And now if you've crossed some sort of threshold and you have a few more wrinkles and some gray hair, now you can be a principal. 316 00:20:25,624 --> 00:20:26,134 No 317 00:20:26,469 --> 00:20:26,709 Mm-hmm. 318 00:20:27,574 --> 00:20:33,334 curiosity, empathy, the right skills, hard work, creativity, wanting to do school, different, that kind of stuff. 319 00:20:33,689 --> 00:20:37,589 To me, that's what, you know, sets you up, uh, to be a success as a leader. 320 00:20:39,074 --> 00:20:39,464 Yeah. 321 00:20:39,854 --> 00:20:43,184 So yesterday was my kids' first day of school, my sophomore son. 322 00:20:43,574 --> 00:20:49,664 Came home from school and he said, my teacher had the best attention getter ever. 323 00:20:50,444 --> 00:21:04,034 he, he told the story of how his teacher was just, uh, was saying, hello, introducing, and, and talking and like just hanging out at the beginning of class, just getting to know kids while he was mixing something in a beaker. 324 00:21:04,484 --> 00:21:13,214 And then he dumped the stuff out of the beaker and he lit a flame and the thing went boom and, and made this huge explosion in the middle of the class. 325 00:21:13,499 --> 00:21:13,739 Yeah. 326 00:21:14,354 --> 00:21:19,244 like that is the kind of experience that is not a, 327 00:21:19,349 --> 00:21:19,409 Yeah. 328 00:21:19,409 --> 00:21:19,469 Yeah. 329 00:21:19,784 --> 00:21:24,494 and pony show because what he's going to do later, I know because I know this teacher. 330 00:21:24,809 --> 00:21:29,189 Is he's going to say, here's how I made that happen, and here's what it looks like and 331 00:21:29,339 --> 00:21:29,549 Yeah. 332 00:21:29,609 --> 00:21:30,989 these chemicals interact. 333 00:21:31,349 --> 00:21:39,029 And because he did that on the first day of school and his first interaction with the kids, it was, it was a can't miss experience. 334 00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:43,139 And if you weren't there for that day, then you're like, man, what did I miss? 335 00:21:43,139 --> 00:21:44,099 And so you are gonna 336 00:21:44,394 --> 00:21:44,474 Hmm. 337 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:46,949 to be there for those opportunities. 338 00:21:46,949 --> 00:21:54,299 And, and the reason why I share that is that, you said, you don't have to have been a teacher to. 339 00:21:54,734 --> 00:22:04,154 For a certain number of years to be able to lead effectively because you lead and seek leadership from everywhere and anywhere. 340 00:22:04,394 --> 00:22:10,184 And, and that's what real Rucks makers do, is they find a way to get that leadership there. 341 00:22:10,574 --> 00:22:16,574 Uh, Ralph Nader said the function of leadership is to produce more leaders, not more followers. 342 00:22:16,574 --> 00:22:21,164 And, and if you, you've been in the classroom for. 343 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:23,069 No time at all. 344 00:22:23,339 --> 00:22:35,129 You can still be an effective leader, and I know that that's blasphemous and that people will lose their minds from me saying that, but that is the truth that you can, and there 345 00:22:35,184 --> 00:22:35,454 Yeah. 346 00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:42,509 who are great leaders, who are not experts in that field because that's not what being a leader is about. 347 00:22:42,509 --> 00:22:43,829 You don't have to know everything. 348 00:22:44,904 --> 00:22:47,004 I'm glad you brought that up 'cause it reminded me. 349 00:22:47,004 --> 00:22:54,204 So the, the reason I, I went on the social media tangent is besides the clown thing, and like, oh, you need a dog and pony show. 350 00:22:54,624 --> 00:22:57,184 Uh, the other very common response, which is, is. 351 00:22:57,839 --> 00:22:58,949 Stupid and lazy. 352 00:22:58,949 --> 00:23:08,489 Like literally, if you took five seconds to look into my background, you wouldn't say what they said, but the tell me, you're not a teacher without telling me you're not a teacher. 353 00:23:09,269 --> 00:23:09,719 Right. 354 00:23:10,769 --> 00:23:11,579 I've gotten that. 355 00:23:11,609 --> 00:23:13,289 I've gotten that for school leadership. 356 00:23:13,289 --> 00:23:17,729 I've gotten that for central office and newsflash, I've actually had experience at all those levels. 357 00:23:17,879 --> 00:23:19,469 And so, um. 358 00:23:20,324 --> 00:23:26,954 I obviously that says more about the person than me, and I'm not gonna take it personally, but it's just, it's just interesting is all I'm saying. 359 00:23:26,954 --> 00:23:27,344 So, 360 00:23:28,039 --> 00:23:28,459 Mm-hmm. 361 00:23:29,414 --> 00:23:30,884 it makes me think about like. 362 00:23:31,244 --> 00:23:36,374 Tell me what you know about teaching as you're a teacher. 363 00:23:36,644 --> 00:23:39,914 Tweeting that and why I would never hire you. 364 00:23:40,154 --> 00:23:40,574 Right. 365 00:23:40,574 --> 00:23:49,484 Like, and, and speaking of that in terms of, um, you know, principals need in a decade, uh, you can see over my shoulder here, it's really pretty. 366 00:23:49,484 --> 00:23:50,144 It says create 367 00:23:50,579 --> 00:23:50,909 Yeah. 368 00:23:51,089 --> 00:23:52,634 results, not a resume. 369 00:23:53,354 --> 00:23:53,714 Right. 370 00:23:54,254 --> 00:24:10,124 This is a before and after old school, traditional resume, CV versus, um, you're out there creating results or, uh, you know, illustrating your learning, uh, in public, right? 371 00:24:10,394 --> 00:24:11,654 That's the new resume. 372 00:24:12,074 --> 00:24:18,674 So that, that teacher's post, like for me was a resume saying, oh, nasty attitude, right? 373 00:24:18,674 --> 00:24:21,674 Like, somebody I wouldn't wanna hire and they don't. 374 00:24:22,499 --> 00:24:26,129 Not even realizing what they're posting there and how that's the new resume. 375 00:24:26,189 --> 00:24:26,879 You know what I mean? 376 00:24:28,434 --> 00:24:28,724 Yeah. 377 00:24:29,084 --> 00:24:43,634 And, and so I think about that and this idea of there is, uh, the, the role of the principal, a lot of people think is the instructional leader, and that's what all the quote unquote research says. 378 00:24:43,949 --> 00:24:44,249 Yeah. 379 00:24:45,074 --> 00:24:50,624 and the reason because I'm working on my doctorate and have been reading this stuff. 380 00:24:51,029 --> 00:25:03,449 The reason the research says that the principal's, the instructional leader, is because the research says that the principal's, the instructional leader, because that's what they're looking at, they're not 381 00:25:03,499 --> 00:25:03,619 Hmm. 382 00:25:03,779 --> 00:25:15,779 at other things, and we know how important the cultural leader of the school is and how if, if you put all this emphasis on instruction and you only measure. 383 00:25:16,124 --> 00:25:32,714 The results of the instruction and you're missing out on the things we said before about what the real purpose of education is, then you're gonna not ever be able to see there are more important things than the actual instruction and about what people become. 384 00:25:32,714 --> 00:25:35,709 And so you don't have to be a master teacher. 385 00:25:36,404 --> 00:25:41,294 To be a principal, uh, you have to be great at inspiring people. 386 00:25:41,294 --> 00:25:45,164 You have to be great at creating a worthwhile experience for school. 387 00:25:45,164 --> 00:25:57,164 You have to be great at making people feel like this is a worthwhile profession, that they have the skills and the capacity to accomplish a great thing like molding a child into. 388 00:25:57,869 --> 00:26:00,659 A good human being as an adult. 389 00:26:00,779 --> 00:26:01,199 Mm-hmm. 390 00:26:01,409 --> 00:26:06,869 those are not simple things and they take a lot of effort and a lot of skill. 391 00:26:07,139 --> 00:26:18,479 And it is not just about instruction, even though that's the the lie that we've been told for years, that if we just teach the the academic's right, then we're gonna be fine. 392 00:26:18,929 --> 00:26:23,759 And even in the best schools academically, not everything is fine. 393 00:26:24,209 --> 00:26:25,439 Because we're all humans 394 00:26:25,629 --> 00:26:26,049 Mm-hmm. 395 00:26:26,134 --> 00:26:26,714 Mm-hmm. 396 00:26:27,149 --> 00:26:30,149 there are challenges and, and we mess things up and all that. 397 00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:35,009 So there's, there's so much more to it than just teaching academics. 398 00:26:36,964 --> 00:26:41,199 One last thing I'll say is, uh, you know, some systems like to, 399 00:26:43,569 --> 00:26:46,509 um, pretend that they're a, a business and. 400 00:26:47,749 --> 00:26:56,989 Um, wanna use sort of business language or ideas to run the school, and I don't necessarily know or think that that's, that that's bad. 401 00:26:58,189 --> 00:27:14,239 The interesting irony that I see is, um, you know, if we're gonna learn from other industries to enhance our leadership, uh, wouldn't it be interesting if we hired school leaders like venture capitalists fund? 402 00:27:15,304 --> 00:27:16,084 Founders. 403 00:27:16,564 --> 00:27:31,084 And what I mean by that, um, it's pretty clear that if you're a first time founder, it's really difficult to get funding for your business idea from venture capitals, capitalists. 404 00:27:31,534 --> 00:27:42,274 And, um, the reason that is, is because they want to know that you actually screwed up a business and failed big time before they trust you with their money. 405 00:27:42,994 --> 00:27:44,134 What's going on there? 406 00:27:44,464 --> 00:27:57,214 Right, because they know that through failure and going through the ringer, you have learned such important leadership life and business lessons. 407 00:27:57,664 --> 00:28:03,304 They can now trust you with a sizable amount of money that they might invest in your company. 408 00:28:04,114 --> 00:28:05,494 So isn't that interesting, right? 409 00:28:05,494 --> 00:28:08,254 Like what if we only hired principals? 410 00:28:08,869 --> 00:28:22,009 Who failed massively at something, at a do school, different dream that maybe didn't get like a hundred percent of the way there, but they learned some lessons and now they can do even better for kids. 411 00:28:22,129 --> 00:28:26,899 So, um, yeah, I think that's an interesting thread to pull on at some point. 412 00:28:27,919 --> 00:28:33,049 Yeah, that, that should be a, uh, an an additional premise that we. 413 00:28:33,409 --> 00:28:41,359 That we put in, like, you don't get to, you don't get the top job until you failed at, uh, a previous job. 414 00:28:41,629 --> 00:28:48,799 Which, which begs the question, how do you get experience when, uh, you have to have experience to get that experience? 415 00:28:48,834 --> 00:28:49,124 Yeah, 416 00:28:50,119 --> 00:28:56,779 and that I think is a really powerful, um, idea to, to be thinking about also. 417 00:28:57,034 --> 00:28:57,799 a hundred percent. 418 00:28:57,919 --> 00:29:00,889 that is not always, not always easy to. 419 00:29:01,864 --> 00:29:04,084 To understand and, and figure out either. 420 00:29:05,329 --> 00:29:05,629 Yeah. 421 00:29:07,864 --> 00:29:10,594 All right, so couple pictures from this one. 422 00:29:11,164 --> 00:29:16,024 Uh, here is, uh, an image 423 00:29:16,084 --> 00:29:16,304 Bam. 424 00:29:16,444 --> 00:29:21,814 that, uh, I drew is, uh, in the past, the. 425 00:29:22,684 --> 00:29:27,484 The principal standing on the cart saying, go, go, go to the person in front of him. 426 00:29:27,964 --> 00:29:32,494 And then the new premise is the principal standing behind, pushing, saying, is this what you need? 427 00:29:32,974 --> 00:29:46,924 And, and then I, I have another image, uh, which I will just describe, which is there is, uh, imagine a circle has management and another circle that has instructional leadership. 428 00:29:47,644 --> 00:29:50,854 Uh, and another circle that has instruc, that has instructional leadership. 429 00:29:51,679 --> 00:29:55,249 Uh, and all those circles that has, uh, leadership in it. 430 00:29:55,369 --> 00:29:55,789 And 431 00:30:00,229 --> 00:30:05,419 leadership is more than just about the, the academics more than just the classroom. 432 00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:08,329 so there's that, 433 00:30:09,634 --> 00:30:10,054 Great. 434 00:30:10,144 --> 00:30:10,444 Yeah. 435 00:30:10,504 --> 00:30:11,019 Thanks for sharing it. 436 00:30:12,979 --> 00:30:17,234 I am not gonna do my image 'cause I essentially drew that, which I already have. 437 00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:17,689 So this 438 00:30:17,784 --> 00:30:18,074 Yeah. 439 00:30:18,169 --> 00:30:20,089 know is gonna be fiery also, which is. 440 00:30:24,784 --> 00:30:27,904 Uh, poor student behavior causes discipline issues. 441 00:30:27,994 --> 00:30:35,974 That is the premise, and we reject that and we say adult emotional dysregulation causes behavior issues. 442 00:30:36,664 --> 00:30:37,744 have you gotta say about this one? 443 00:30:38,284 --> 00:30:38,884 You're right. 444 00:30:42,034 --> 00:30:42,244 Oh, 445 00:30:42,424 --> 00:30:44,794 I, I accept, I accept your new premise. 446 00:30:44,794 --> 00:30:48,934 What, what I'd love to, what I'd love to hear is how you learned it, you know what I mean? 447 00:30:48,994 --> 00:30:53,674 Um, and, and, uh, yeah, I'll leave it at that. 448 00:30:53,674 --> 00:30:57,244 I have a story of how I learned it, which I'll share, but how, how did you learn that lesson? 449 00:30:58,204 --> 00:31:00,484 So, uh, a couple things. 450 00:31:00,574 --> 00:31:05,614 Um, there's, there's a lot to unpack here, but the place I'm gonna start is the 451 00:31:05,794 --> 00:31:07,684 Yeah, you recommended that to me. 452 00:31:07,804 --> 00:31:07,894 Mm-hmm. 453 00:31:08,554 --> 00:31:08,944 Yeah. 454 00:31:09,274 --> 00:31:10,474 Uh, great book. 455 00:31:10,534 --> 00:31:14,494 And one of the things that it says in here, uh, that. 456 00:31:14,854 --> 00:31:23,314 Lemme just read a couple of the chapters because it's so powerful and so against what we, what we currently believe. 457 00:31:23,659 --> 00:31:23,929 Yeah. 458 00:31:23,929 --> 00:31:26,659 Chap chapter titles, or are you reading the full chapter? 459 00:31:26,659 --> 00:31:29,839 Like, I should go grab a coffee and sit in my, uh, reading chair. 460 00:31:29,944 --> 00:31:29,954 no. 461 00:31:30,004 --> 00:31:34,654 Just chapter titles, so, the first one is Deny trauma. 462 00:31:35,149 --> 00:31:35,509 Yeah. 463 00:31:35,824 --> 00:31:37,204 Trauma Doesn't Exist. 464 00:31:37,399 --> 00:31:38,329 Lord Almighty. 465 00:31:39,254 --> 00:31:39,474 Oh. 466 00:31:39,544 --> 00:31:43,234 second one is, all problems are interpersonal Relationship problems. 467 00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:44,359 Yeah. 468 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:47,749 have a problem, it is a interpersonal relationship problem. 469 00:31:48,379 --> 00:31:53,509 Uh, don't, don't make us accept responsibility for who we are and how we behave. 470 00:31:54,529 --> 00:31:54,949 Yeah. 471 00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:59,629 And then I'll just read the thi third one, which is reject other people's tasks. 472 00:31:59,809 --> 00:32:00,469 And, 473 00:32:00,544 --> 00:32:01,759 like reject the promise. 474 00:32:02,539 --> 00:32:02,899 yeah. 475 00:32:03,049 --> 00:32:11,899 So one of the, the main things here uh, the way that I learned this is my oldest daughter was born with Down syndrome. 476 00:32:12,584 --> 00:32:12,664 Hmm. 477 00:32:12,694 --> 00:32:23,344 And it changed how I saw raising kids and teaching kids, because we went from, I have three brothers and three sisters, lots of competition. 478 00:32:23,344 --> 00:32:24,364 Who's got the best kids? 479 00:32:24,364 --> 00:32:25,594 Who's got the smartest kids? 480 00:32:25,774 --> 00:32:30,814 My kids did this at this age, got this AP score, a SAT score, whatever. 481 00:32:31,084 --> 00:32:32,614 Lots of that kind of stuff happening. 482 00:32:32,884 --> 00:32:36,754 As soon as my daughter was born, all of those things just disappeared. 483 00:32:37,729 --> 00:32:48,949 And, and instead of us having these high expectations, which we all think are really important, we decided to have no expectations and we didn't expect anything. 484 00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:55,399 We just loved our kids and wanted them to be their very best version of themselves. 485 00:32:55,849 --> 00:32:58,009 And then we helped them do that. 486 00:32:58,339 --> 00:33:04,849 And now, nearly 20 years later, seeing how our kids have flourished and really become. 487 00:33:05,299 --> 00:33:10,249 Their best selves without any of the expectations has been really amazing. 488 00:33:10,639 --> 00:33:10,819 But 489 00:33:10,844 --> 00:33:10,964 Hmm. 490 00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:16,369 does this relate to problems are the problems of the adults? 491 00:33:16,669 --> 00:33:27,274 The, the problem arises when adults have expectations of kids and think that kids should act or behave in a certain way, and then they go after the kids and are. 492 00:33:28,054 --> 00:33:32,704 Bothered by what the kids are doing and are taking out their aggressions. 493 00:33:32,704 --> 00:33:36,334 And that is what is actually causing the behavior problems. 494 00:33:36,664 --> 00:33:40,804 It's not that the kids, yes, kids are gonna do stupid things, so we're adults by the way. 495 00:33:41,914 --> 00:33:56,434 but when you, when the problem is in how you, uh, prepare for that in advance, if you think that kids have to walk in a straight line and always be silent all the time, and then as soon as someone gets outta line, then you. 496 00:33:57,184 --> 00:33:58,069 your mind about 'em. 497 00:33:58,504 --> 00:34:03,454 All that does is escalate the situation for everybody, and it doesn't have to be that way. 498 00:34:03,724 --> 00:34:13,144 So, uh, one of those things from the courage to be disliked is the power of no expectations, which is not explicitly stated, but that's how I interpret it 499 00:34:13,514 --> 00:34:13,734 Hmm. 500 00:34:13,924 --> 00:34:14,344 us. 501 00:34:14,404 --> 00:34:17,164 And, and that is a really powerful thing. 502 00:34:17,164 --> 00:34:23,404 And when I stopped expecting something from kids, they actually did better than. 503 00:34:24,529 --> 00:34:34,129 I would have expected them to, originally performed better in all facets than had high expectations for 'em, 504 00:34:34,549 --> 00:34:34,819 Hmm. 505 00:34:35,089 --> 00:34:43,789 just a fascinating thing to experience, uh, which you really have to suspend that, that expectation for that to happen. 506 00:34:43,999 --> 00:34:50,029 And when I stopped expecting kids to be perfect, then their behavior got a lot better. 507 00:34:50,479 --> 00:34:52,279 And it's really amazing how that works. 508 00:34:54,649 --> 00:34:57,739 Yeah, you, you recommended that book to me ages ago. 509 00:34:57,979 --> 00:35:02,359 Uh, and the big idea that I always memorized was, um, the idea of whose task is it? 510 00:35:02,584 --> 00:35:02,644 It. 511 00:35:03,304 --> 00:35:03,754 Right. 512 00:35:04,204 --> 00:35:12,874 And I think, you know, uh, school leaders, teachers, um, this is how I learned the lesson is, is the tasks that my student had. 513 00:35:13,744 --> 00:35:20,044 I often, uh, made it my task and then I would be frustrated about it. 514 00:35:20,284 --> 00:35:20,614 Right. 515 00:35:20,734 --> 00:35:26,284 So, uh, example would be teach in sixth grade, right? 516 00:35:26,374 --> 00:35:29,554 Uh, they have lockers for the first time. 517 00:35:29,824 --> 00:35:34,234 At beginning of the year, you know, you're teaching 'em how to do a combo lock, right? 518 00:35:34,744 --> 00:35:40,504 Um, these, that's before like retina scanning and fingerprint, like thumb, thumb, fingerprint. 519 00:35:40,504 --> 00:35:43,114 Uh, we should, that'd be a good business idea. 520 00:35:43,864 --> 00:35:47,554 But, uh, you know, in, in kids it took a long time to learn it. 521 00:35:48,724 --> 00:35:54,064 So when a student was like, Mr. Power, can you help me with my lock? 522 00:35:54,124 --> 00:35:58,504 And it was the middle or the end of the year, you know, uh. 523 00:35:58,954 --> 00:36:01,894 I would say yes, but I'd have a big attitude about that. 524 00:36:02,074 --> 00:36:02,434 Right. 525 00:36:02,764 --> 00:36:05,014 And sometimes that happens here at home, right? 526 00:36:05,014 --> 00:36:09,574 My, my, my wife might make a request and it's up to me if I wanna honor it or not. 527 00:36:10,084 --> 00:36:12,664 Uh, but if I choose to honor it, I shouldn't have an attitude about it. 528 00:36:12,979 --> 00:36:13,279 Right. 529 00:36:13,279 --> 00:36:15,619 And that's that key point, having an attitude about it. 530 00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:19,999 So I was listening to a podcast, uh, at the time about parenting. 531 00:36:20,539 --> 00:36:30,499 Now I don't have, um, children, but I thought that I might be able to apply some of the lessons learned about parenting, potentially apply them to the school setting. 532 00:36:30,799 --> 00:36:31,879 And I was right. 533 00:36:32,329 --> 00:36:37,099 And the big theme that I learned from the, the episode was that, um. 534 00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:38,659 A couple things. 535 00:36:38,899 --> 00:36:47,869 One, it's really entertaining for a, a young person to see an adult lose their mind because they're out of, they're out of, they're out of control, right? 536 00:36:47,899 --> 00:36:51,619 And, uh, now you wanna talk about bozo is in the classroom. 537 00:36:51,949 --> 00:36:59,059 When you lose your, your, your, you know, when you're dysregulated and you're losing your mind as, as a teacher, you look like a freaking goofball. 538 00:36:59,059 --> 00:37:02,749 And it's hilarious to all types from kindergarten, I'm sure. 539 00:37:03,649 --> 00:37:05,449 To for sure to high school. 540 00:37:05,479 --> 00:37:05,869 Right. 541 00:37:06,169 --> 00:37:09,859 So that's entertaining and um, maybe I'd call it 542 00:37:10,024 --> 00:37:11,374 miss experience Danny. 543 00:37:12,289 --> 00:37:12,649 so. 544 00:37:14,704 --> 00:37:16,774 Did we just solve education's problems? 545 00:37:16,774 --> 00:37:20,164 Let's just find the most dysregulated adults and put 'em in classrooms. 546 00:37:20,164 --> 00:37:21,694 Nobody would wanna miss that. 547 00:37:21,844 --> 00:37:23,494 What's gonna happen today? 548 00:37:23,614 --> 00:37:27,574 It's WWE raw for, uh, you know, for schools. 549 00:37:27,934 --> 00:37:37,954 Um, that's funny that you said that, but you know, at times I would, I would, uh, be upset and kids found that funny, which only makes you more upset, right? 550 00:37:38,314 --> 00:37:40,984 So, um, that was one big aha. 551 00:37:40,984 --> 00:37:42,784 And then the second was, um. 552 00:37:43,414 --> 00:37:49,054 Uh, not acceptance, sort of like their, their problem was not my problem necessarily. 553 00:37:49,444 --> 00:37:50,764 And so stop, like owning it. 554 00:37:50,764 --> 00:37:54,784 Stop trying to be the, the savior, the hero in that situation. 555 00:37:55,084 --> 00:37:56,734 That took a lot of pressure off. 556 00:37:56,974 --> 00:38:03,609 And then the third thing was, um, sort of having a Jedi Middle way approach to. 557 00:38:04,939 --> 00:38:09,769 Like a negative comment, you know, that a student might make to get that reaction. 558 00:38:09,769 --> 00:38:10,549 That's interesting. 559 00:38:10,999 --> 00:38:12,289 Mr. Bower, you suck. 560 00:38:12,289 --> 00:38:13,309 You're a terrible teacher. 561 00:38:13,309 --> 00:38:15,469 And I would say you're probably right. 562 00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:16,579 What? 563 00:38:17,389 --> 00:38:19,789 Wait, I just called you a big jerk, right? 564 00:38:19,789 --> 00:38:21,199 You're a terrible teacher. 565 00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:23,449 Yeah, you're probably right. 566 00:38:23,929 --> 00:38:25,009 And that was that. 567 00:38:25,009 --> 00:38:28,189 And literally when I started sort of, um. 568 00:38:29,149 --> 00:38:33,769 Agreeing or having this middle road, you know, that could be probably true. 569 00:38:33,769 --> 00:38:34,759 Probably so. 570 00:38:34,759 --> 00:38:35,839 You're probably right. 571 00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:37,039 That kind of stuff. 572 00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:37,729 Oh no. 573 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:38,629 Right. 574 00:38:38,929 --> 00:38:42,169 All of a sudden the kids stopped making those insults. 575 00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:45,259 It was because they didn't get the response they wanted. 576 00:38:45,769 --> 00:38:47,089 Um, so last thing I'll say. 577 00:38:47,089 --> 00:38:49,669 There, there was a student, uh, um. 578 00:38:50,434 --> 00:38:52,864 And she was having trouble with her locker. 579 00:38:52,864 --> 00:38:53,734 It's the end of the year. 580 00:38:53,734 --> 00:38:59,614 Mr. Bauer, ah, help me and old Mr. Bauer would run out of the class, help her out, be upset. 581 00:38:59,614 --> 00:39:01,444 'cause he has a class full of kids. 582 00:39:01,444 --> 00:39:08,644 He should be instructing who's watching the kids and why doesn't this girl know how to do her lock at this time? 583 00:39:09,004 --> 00:39:14,674 And um, I remember when she said that to me and I was like, oh no. 584 00:39:16,024 --> 00:39:17,374 What are you gonna do about it? 585 00:39:17,674 --> 00:39:18,004 Right. 586 00:39:18,424 --> 00:39:23,014 And I put it, I put it back on her and she goes, um hmm. 587 00:39:24,754 --> 00:39:34,114 Would it be okay if I go and just slowly try to figure out my lock and would you please not gimme a tardy if I'm late coming to class? 588 00:39:34,474 --> 00:39:35,494 That was her response. 589 00:39:35,914 --> 00:39:38,794 I said, go for it right now. 590 00:39:38,794 --> 00:39:40,714 This was talking to the class clown. 591 00:39:41,344 --> 00:39:47,644 Somebody who was legitimately funny, even difficult for a teacher not to laugh at her jokes and her mannerisms. 592 00:39:48,034 --> 00:39:53,434 And usually when she came to class late, she'd make a big show, right? 593 00:39:53,464 --> 00:39:58,354 And everybody would laugh and you know, you'd have to get the back class back on track. 594 00:39:58,924 --> 00:40:01,444 This time she comes to class late. 595 00:40:01,954 --> 00:40:12,964 Got her locker open, had all her materials, gives me a thumbs up, and quietly walks to her seat as if she's been possessed by, I guess an angel, you know, in this case. 596 00:40:13,264 --> 00:40:15,814 Uh, because she does, she does it perfectly. 597 00:40:15,934 --> 00:40:16,264 Right. 598 00:40:16,264 --> 00:40:19,504 Exactly how you want your students to come into class late. 599 00:40:20,074 --> 00:40:22,024 And I was like, oh my God, this stuff works. 600 00:40:22,534 --> 00:40:22,924 Right? 601 00:40:23,164 --> 00:40:23,494 Yeah. 602 00:40:23,944 --> 00:40:34,819 And the realization for me in that moment, it's me how I. Respond to these situations in the classroom, literally changes the environment. 603 00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:39,649 And the second I learned that Jethro, that was the last day I wrote up a student with a referral. 604 00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:41,209 How about that? 605 00:40:41,209 --> 00:40:41,569 Yep. 606 00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:43,759 Kids didn't change. 607 00:40:44,029 --> 00:40:44,689 I changed. 608 00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:45,979 Yeah. 609 00:40:46,579 --> 00:40:47,089 totally. 610 00:40:47,839 --> 00:40:52,279 it's so fascinating that, that you bring up the referral piece because we. 611 00:40:53,209 --> 00:40:58,249 reduced office discipline referrals in all of my schools. 612 00:40:58,399 --> 00:41:01,729 Not because the kids change, but because we asked the teachers to change. 613 00:41:02,049 --> 00:41:02,309 All right. 614 00:41:02,869 --> 00:41:12,109 and, and once, once we started that kind of approach, then the, the referrals just went down dramatically. 615 00:41:12,289 --> 00:41:20,524 Because, because when, the only reason you ever write a referral is because you want someone else to deal with your problem. 616 00:41:21,649 --> 00:41:22,009 Hmm. 617 00:41:22,729 --> 00:41:22,999 Hmm. 618 00:41:23,059 --> 00:41:27,379 there's no reason to write it other than you want somebody else to take care of it. 619 00:41:27,679 --> 00:41:28,009 Yeah. 620 00:41:28,879 --> 00:41:45,079 and when you ask like, Hey, uh, like, I'm never going as the principal, I'm never going to have the same feeling about the situation that you do, and it's not going to be as effective for me to deal with it as it is for you. 621 00:41:45,499 --> 00:41:47,959 And one of the things that we also tried was saying. 622 00:41:48,784 --> 00:42:00,274 W if you're gonna write a referral or send the kid outta your office or outta your classroom to the office, we are gonna come down and take your class so that you can talk with the kid. 623 00:42:00,484 --> 00:42:03,064 Because that's really the issue is you don't have time to deal with it. 624 00:42:03,219 --> 00:42:03,439 Hmm. 625 00:42:04,114 --> 00:42:09,784 and so we did that a couple times and then teachers never asked for it again because they just found the time to 626 00:42:10,009 --> 00:42:10,969 To talk to the kid. 627 00:42:12,004 --> 00:42:13,894 that's what really needed to happen. 628 00:42:14,134 --> 00:42:14,584 Um. 629 00:42:15,739 --> 00:42:26,029 There's, there's one other aspect of this also from the courage to be disliked that I think is really important and, and that is the damage that praise causes. 630 00:42:26,299 --> 00:42:32,579 And it, it's in line with this because, um, well, let me set it up here this way. 631 00:42:34,129 --> 00:42:38,389 Let's say for example, that, uh, you're, you're in. 632 00:42:39,544 --> 00:42:47,704 You're in your, your school and, and you're doing something and a kid comes and helps you do something and you're like, oh, you're such a good helper. 633 00:42:47,704 --> 00:42:49,264 Thank you for helping me do this. 634 00:42:49,414 --> 00:42:53,044 That's a totally normal kind of thing that we, that we hear all the time. 635 00:42:53,044 --> 00:42:53,344 Right. 636 00:42:54,034 --> 00:43:03,334 let's say instead that the, that the principal's working on something and a teacher comes and helps him do that, and the principal says, you're such a good helper. 637 00:43:04,129 --> 00:43:10,639 Or let's say a husband is doing something in the garage and his wife comes out and he says, you're such a good helper. 638 00:43:11,479 --> 00:43:18,049 Both of those situations would be totally demeaning and disrespectful to the teacher and to the, to the wife. 639 00:43:18,294 --> 00:43:18,374 Hmm. 640 00:43:18,919 --> 00:43:24,169 And we would call that misogynistic if the husband's doing that and saying, you're 641 00:43:24,284 --> 00:43:25,654 Mm-hmm. 642 00:43:25,909 --> 00:43:32,389 because anytime that you make a, you pray someone, you create a vertical relationship that says. 643 00:43:32,809 --> 00:43:37,339 I am above you and I know more and I'm better than you. 644 00:43:38,059 --> 00:43:42,739 And the difference, the, the better way to do that is to express gratitude. 645 00:43:42,769 --> 00:43:47,869 Instead of saying, you're such a good helper, say, you so much for helping with this. 646 00:43:47,929 --> 00:43:51,259 I really needed your help and I didn't even have to ask you. 647 00:43:51,559 --> 00:43:52,219 And. 648 00:43:53,014 --> 00:43:55,204 So I appreciate how you helped me. 649 00:43:55,774 --> 00:43:55,994 Hmm. 650 00:43:56,044 --> 00:44:07,264 does is that creates a horizontal relationship and it makes the person that you're giving that gratitude to, instead of praise, feel like they are your equal and able to participate with you. 651 00:44:07,684 --> 00:44:07,924 Hmm. 652 00:44:08,764 --> 00:44:11,884 that is a powerful way to deal with students. 653 00:44:11,884 --> 00:44:13,654 Also in that. 654 00:44:14,404 --> 00:44:17,944 you are giving praise, you are forcing them to be below you. 655 00:44:18,244 --> 00:44:29,614 When you are giving them gratitude, you are elevating them to your same level, doing that, they then don't see you as the bad guy or someone on the other side. 656 00:44:29,614 --> 00:44:33,424 They see you as appropriate and respectful equal. 657 00:44:33,424 --> 00:44:38,344 That's exactly what that class clown girl did in your story is she. 658 00:44:38,689 --> 00:44:44,239 Saw you as an equal recognized that you were giving her an opportunity and respected you 659 00:44:44,839 --> 00:44:46,279 Because she was elevated up. 660 00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:46,729 Yeah. 661 00:44:47,179 --> 00:44:47,449 Yeah. 662 00:44:48,379 --> 00:44:57,649 Because you gave her the opportunity to solve her own problem, instead of saying, either I'll solve it for you, or you're now in trouble because you're 663 00:44:57,739 --> 00:44:58,249 You're late. 664 00:44:58,309 --> 00:44:58,459 on 665 00:44:58,644 --> 00:44:58,934 Yeah. 666 00:44:59,869 --> 00:45:06,679 There are lots of different ways that could have gone, but you made her an equal and not an equal in like there's still a hierarchy. 667 00:45:06,679 --> 00:45:07,399 You're still the teacher. 668 00:45:07,634 --> 00:45:08,054 Mm-hmm. 669 00:45:08,209 --> 00:45:16,219 you made her an equal in respect and value, not an equal, in some superfluous, non meaningful way. 670 00:45:16,224 --> 00:45:17,314 That doesn't actually matter. 671 00:45:17,899 --> 00:45:18,199 Yeah. 672 00:45:18,439 --> 00:45:20,959 You demonstrated that high, high regard, right? 673 00:45:20,959 --> 00:45:22,729 For, for her humanity. 674 00:45:23,179 --> 00:45:27,829 Um, I'm glad you took the time to explain that 'cause saying there's a problem with praise, just. 675 00:45:28,999 --> 00:45:29,599 On its own. 676 00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:30,649 Sounds crazy, right? 677 00:45:30,649 --> 00:45:32,449 I think people would have a hard time with that. 678 00:45:32,749 --> 00:45:39,559 But when you talked about, um, praise versus gratitude, vertical, horizontal relationships, that makes a lot of sense. 679 00:45:40,744 --> 00:45:41,044 Yeah. 680 00:45:41,644 --> 00:45:43,954 Uh, there's a lot of good stuff in that book. 681 00:45:44,119 --> 00:45:44,839 It's a good book. 682 00:45:45,319 --> 00:45:45,469 Yeah. 683 00:45:45,664 --> 00:45:45,994 Yep. 684 00:45:47,194 --> 00:45:58,744 so here's the picture that I drove or drew to drive that point home, which is the old premise is the principals on top, the teachers down below, and then the students are below the teacher. 685 00:45:59,104 --> 00:46:04,114 And in the new premise, uh, we have horizontal instead of vertical relationships. 686 00:46:04,394 --> 00:46:04,614 Mm. 687 00:46:05,314 --> 00:46:18,154 even though there is still a, a hierarchy of position, there is a horizontal, uh, level playing field as far as respect and humanity and value goes. 688 00:46:18,649 --> 00:46:19,129 Right on. 689 00:46:19,579 --> 00:46:22,249 My picture's just focused on what you can control, right? 690 00:46:22,249 --> 00:46:23,299 Can't change others. 691 00:46:23,299 --> 00:46:24,114 You can't change your. 692 00:46:25,129 --> 00:46:26,749 So that's, that's where it's at. 693 00:46:26,989 --> 00:46:33,199 Last thing I'll say, 'cause this has to do with, um, discipline being at the feet of, of the adult. 694 00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:37,549 But this is just a, a general leadership, um, idea. 695 00:46:37,549 --> 00:46:41,629 It's a quote that I got from, uh, Jocko, from Extreme Ownership. 696 00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:43,819 There are no bad teams, only bad leaders. 697 00:46:45,344 --> 00:46:45,634 Holy 698 00:46:45,874 --> 00:46:45,964 I 699 00:46:46,054 --> 00:46:47,274 smokes, in. 700 00:46:48,409 --> 00:46:49,909 I, I really like that. 701 00:46:49,909 --> 00:47:02,509 I mean, we could riff on this for the next 40 minutes and we won't, but maybe we'll end with this idea, which is imagine you couldn't change your staff, right? 702 00:47:03,919 --> 00:47:05,749 Get Jim Collins outta your head. 703 00:47:05,779 --> 00:47:12,499 Stop thinking about buses and the seats on the bus and where people are sitting, and if they're on the right bus. 704 00:47:13,009 --> 00:47:16,249 Instead, start thinking, I can't change my staff at all. 705 00:47:17,629 --> 00:47:22,939 And we can still be an incredible school, a legendary campus. 706 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:39,319 So if you accepted that as just a do it as a thought experiment, how would you have to show up differently in terms of, uh, potentially supporting and providing feedback and whatever you need to do as a ruckus maker and as a leader. 707 00:47:39,649 --> 00:47:44,119 But if you couldn't change your staff and you still would win however you wanted, define winning. 708 00:47:44,494 --> 00:47:44,884 Right. 709 00:47:45,244 --> 00:47:46,054 What changes? 710 00:47:46,054 --> 00:47:48,334 'cause there's no bad teams, right? 711 00:47:48,334 --> 00:47:49,564 Only bad leaders. 712 00:47:50,014 --> 00:47:50,854 Imagine that. 713 00:47:50,854 --> 00:47:56,794 And that's somebody who was, uh, in the military, I think a Navy Seal, don't, don't quote me on that. 714 00:47:57,184 --> 00:48:09,364 But the stakes were extremely high and he was saying, oh my team, it, this isn't a better, you know, objectively there might be guys who are, uh, fitter, smarter, you know, whatever, more resilient. 715 00:48:09,604 --> 00:48:11,494 But he said it's really. 716 00:48:11,914 --> 00:48:12,634 All on me. 717 00:48:12,784 --> 00:48:15,454 So that's the last thought I wanna share. 718 00:48:16,864 --> 00:48:17,224 Yeah. 719 00:48:17,224 --> 00:48:26,074 I, I really like that because it is, it is very true and you cannot actually change your staff, by the way, uh, despite what you may think. 720 00:48:26,074 --> 00:48:26,854 You can't. 721 00:48:26,974 --> 00:48:29,614 So, uh, your, your picture was perfect. 722 00:48:29,614 --> 00:48:31,024 You cannot change anybody else. 723 00:48:31,024 --> 00:48:31,804 You can try. 724 00:48:31,804 --> 00:48:33,064 You can think you can, but. 725 00:48:33,439 --> 00:48:34,969 The reality is that you cannot. 726 00:48:34,969 --> 00:48:35,179 And 727 00:48:35,269 --> 00:48:35,389 Hmm. 728 00:48:35,809 --> 00:48:36,889 that's really powerful. 729 00:48:36,889 --> 00:48:44,149 And um, I do want to give a shout out to Eric Shialla, uh, in Transformative Principal episode 2 51, 730 00:48:44,554 --> 00:48:45,364 All right, Eric. 731 00:48:45,489 --> 00:48:45,779 Oops. 732 00:48:46,459 --> 00:48:57,559 where he did not change his staff and completely transformed his school with no attrition and using the same people and can create a completely different model for a school. 733 00:48:57,949 --> 00:49:02,114 It is possible, but it is almost unheard of because almost always we think we need to. 734 00:49:03,034 --> 00:49:05,764 Get the, get the old guard out and bring new people in. 735 00:49:05,764 --> 00:49:07,564 And that's what has to happen. 736 00:49:07,564 --> 00:49:09,484 So, uh, it doesn't have to be that way. 737 00:49:09,634 --> 00:49:11,614 Uh, and you can only change yourself. 738 00:49:12,544 --> 00:49:14,614 Danny, this was awesome, as usual. 739 00:49:14,614 --> 00:49:16,924 Thank you so much for, for doing this. 740 00:49:16,929 --> 00:49:16,969 Uh. 741 00:49:17,449 --> 00:49:23,629 Uh, go check out the next episode of this on, uh, better Leaders, better Schools podcast. 742 00:49:23,959 --> 00:49:33,739 And then the next one after that, we'll be back here on Transformative Principal and you can see a link to all of them in the show notes, uh, for this show at Transformative Principal dot org. 743 00:49:33,769 --> 00:49:35,029 Thanks so much for being here, Danny. 744 00:49:35,784 --> 00:49:37,384 Thank you for the opportunity Jethro.