Speaker 1: Hello, dear friends, this is John Butler
Speaker 1: and you're about to listen to a podcast
Speaker 1: called Running the River.
Speaker 1: This is a new podcast that I have put
Speaker 1: together with my dear friend Dingo Spender.
Speaker 1: He, you may recall, helped me with the last
Speaker 1: podcast I made for my album Home.
Speaker 1: Here again we deconstruct and get under the
Speaker 1: skin and get our hands dirty in the
Speaker 1: substrate soil of what I was envisioning
Speaker 1: for this latest ambient album.
Speaker 1: This is an album I made for wellness
Speaker 1: practitioners and practicers alike to
Speaker 1: defrag and decompress in this very busy,
Speaker 1: fast and quick world, and we hope you enjoy
Speaker 1: as we take you up, down and across the
Speaker 1: river.
Speaker 1: This is Running the River.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, now that we've
Speaker 1: gotten through all the things we want to
Speaker 1: talk about.
Speaker 1: Is this like?
Speaker 1: What are you using to, if we're talking
Speaker 1: about?
Speaker 1: You know if the theme?
Speaker 1: Is you regulating the nervous system?
Speaker 1: and dealing with all the pressures of
Speaker 1: modern society, let alone what we inherit
Speaker 1: epigenetically.
Speaker 1: What are your practices to um create a more
Speaker 1: uh conducive life to uh uh ease and I don't
Speaker 1: know, or may not that life has to be all
Speaker 1: ease, but just maybe uh more peaceful yeah,
Speaker 1: peaceful, that's a good word.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, my my.
Speaker 2: Now you know my tools and my tool belt.
Speaker 2: Uh, breath would be my like my hammer you
Speaker 2: know, that's my go-to daily work, um, and
Speaker 2: you know I went really deep into um,
Speaker 2: ashtanga yoga.
Speaker 2: So like a fairly solid ashtanga yoga
Speaker 2: practice and you know the combination of
Speaker 2: those two, with always meditating, you know,
Speaker 2: every morning.
Speaker 2: And then my primary ways of getting through
Speaker 2: and being a kind, open-minded, patient,
Speaker 2: compassionate human being yeah, to myself
Speaker 2: and my community.
Speaker 2: And my family yeah, solid solid regime yeah,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna be the first to say it's like
Speaker 2: I'm not nailing it every morning.
Speaker 2: I'm, you know, I hope that you know in the
Speaker 2: telling of this, there is no, there is no
Speaker 2: part of it where it's like I do this every
Speaker 2: single morning without fail, like you know.
Speaker 2: The discipline side of it, where it's like
Speaker 2: I do this every single morning without fail,
Speaker 2: like you know, the discipline side of it,
Speaker 2: is a work in progress still.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it always is, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the real thing, you know.
Speaker 1: Like one thing, I've the reoccurring thing
Speaker 1: I've heard from you know a few different
Speaker 1: meditation modalities.
Speaker 1: It's like you will lose your center or you
Speaker 1: will lose the mantra just come back to it.
Speaker 1: And how you come back to it is actually
Speaker 1: more important than actually, yes, not
Speaker 1: falling off, because we will all fall.
Speaker 1: It's a wobble, you know yeah yeah, the
Speaker 1: whole thing wobbles, yeah, the whole thing,
Speaker 1: yeah, like energy.
Speaker 1: Energy wobbles, yeah, up and down, up and
Speaker 1: down, the worth.
Speaker 1: The earth is wobbling on its axis.
Speaker 1: It's like we're all wobbling.
Speaker 1: I think the idea, I think most people who
Speaker 1: practice kind of know this, but I think
Speaker 1: it's the, you know, there's that kind of
Speaker 1: romantic um aspect to kind of the whole
Speaker 1: quote-unquote wellness world or whatever
Speaker 1: else that people see from the outside.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, it's like, when you're
Speaker 1: looking for this, some kind of utopic, um
Speaker 1: unrealistic, fantastical idea of um
Speaker 1: serenity or you know, and actually a lot of
Speaker 1: times it's there's a lot of discomfort,
Speaker 1: yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And the tension and the release of it all
Speaker 1: it's like it's not just all about release.
Speaker 1: There has to be, yeah, sun and moon, day
Speaker 1: and night, you know, and yeah, that you
Speaker 1: know.
Speaker 1: I think, another definition of yoga it's
Speaker 1: just like the practice, you know it is, it
Speaker 1: is the journey.
Speaker 1: It's like it's not, it's not this, it's
Speaker 1: more of a way than a discipline, so to
Speaker 1: speak.
Speaker 1: That life is, yeah, it's not, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not this, it's more of a way than a
Speaker 1: discipline, so to speak.
Speaker 1: That life is it's not like, cool, once you
Speaker 1: do this and then you do this, then it's all
Speaker 1: right, it's like, and then this too shall
Speaker 1: pass and something else is going to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And for me it's like finding the right
Speaker 1: combination, as well.
Speaker 1: I need running in my life or skateboarding
Speaker 1: in my life to give me that burst, and also
Speaker 1: just, literally just the cardio.
Speaker 1: And then I need other things that stop all
Speaker 1: the noise and have to sit still and
Speaker 1: meditate and then the breathing, which you
Speaker 1: know.
Speaker 1: The modality that I was introduced to, you
Speaker 1: know, yeah, a year or so ago, was just this
Speaker 1: idea like you're not trying to still the
Speaker 1: mind, you're not, you're actually just
Speaker 1: trying to keep the breath.
Speaker 1: Natural.
Speaker 1: You can move as much as you want, you can
Speaker 1: think about whatever you want to think
Speaker 1: about and, you know, just lack of
Speaker 1: expectation to get it right was actually
Speaker 1: really, really great little practice to
Speaker 1: have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's coming back to that
Speaker 2: practice, which is the foundation of all
Speaker 2: these particular eastern practices, is is
Speaker 2: approaching it with kindness.
Speaker 2: You know why would I approach?
Speaker 2: Why would I beat myself up over not
Speaker 2: relaxing enough?
Speaker 1: you know why would I get stressed that I'm
Speaker 1: not relaxed enough?
Speaker 2: you know it's like it's like ah, okay it's
Speaker 2: such an industrialized way of approaching
Speaker 2: anything.
Speaker 1: I think we've been so, we've so inherited a
Speaker 1: model, and I don't know if you want to call
Speaker 1: it industrialization, capitalism, yeah,
Speaker 1: patriarchy, I don't know, whatever, give me
Speaker 1: a mixture of all of it.
Speaker 1: You know, inherited trauma, blah, blah,
Speaker 1: blah.
Speaker 1: But this idea that, like you know, we see
Speaker 1: that in the West a bit with, say, you know,
Speaker 1: yoga, for example, it's like you know,
Speaker 1: there's a, there's a, there is a small
Speaker 1: tendency or, depending on how large, I'm,
Speaker 1: not part of the culture that much but that
Speaker 1: it becomes a competition Like how much can
Speaker 1: you stretch, how long can you hold it, how
Speaker 1: bad it's, like it's.
Speaker 1: We industrialize everything, everything has
Speaker 1: to be a commodity in a competition in the
Speaker 1: west, and like and to take that competition
Speaker 1: out and be kind.
Speaker 1: You know I always, you know recall I
Speaker 1: probably said this in the last podcast.
Speaker 1: I said a lot.
Speaker 1: It's like asking a friend about how he
Speaker 1: deals with anxiety and like I'm like what
Speaker 1: do you do?
Speaker 1: I need some help.
Speaker 1: And she's like I just well, I just try to
Speaker 1: be kind to myself.
Speaker 1: And I'm just like what did you say?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he said.
Speaker 1: I said kind of like.
Speaker 1: What's that word mean?
Speaker 1: Like like I was.
Speaker 1: It was almost like he spoke another
Speaker 1: language to me.
Speaker 1: Protocol that I would kind of yeah, I've
Speaker 1: been raised with.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that my parents weren't kind,
Speaker 1: I'm saying just this idea of oh well, first
Speaker 1: of all be kind, oh, that's all right
Speaker 1: because that's okay, but then fuck I can't
Speaker 1: do this, why can't I do?
Speaker 2: everybody else can do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, and and you know,
Speaker 2: when you start going the, the distilled
Speaker 2: wisdom of the masters, the spiritual
Speaker 2: masters like Thich Nhat Hanh, his, his
Speaker 2: approach, he embodies um 100%, the, the
Speaker 2: lifelong pursuit of kindness, like it's,
Speaker 2: it's an actual religion, that Buddhism he
Speaker 2: built Buddhism around to, to just keep
Speaker 2: supporting the intention of kindness to
Speaker 2: himself and community and the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What year is this?
Speaker 2: Thich Nhat Hanh is like uh, he died, I
Speaker 2: think three years ago, vietnam, very famous
Speaker 2: Vietnamese Buddhist master.
Speaker 2: I'll pass this on.
Speaker 2: He's my his interpretation of um of the
Speaker 2: Buddha is like is just heaven.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Heaven, yeah Interesting of the buddha is
Speaker 2: like it's just heaven yeah, heaven, yeah
Speaker 2: interesting.
Speaker 2: And what he did with his life and that the
Speaker 2: example that his life became of kindness.
Speaker 2: It is a testament to it is probably the
Speaker 2: most peaceful action.
Speaker 2: It is beyond what he yeah, he's.
Speaker 1: He's my hero it's funny like I was saying
Speaker 1: um, we're talking about the propensity, uh,
Speaker 1: the ease in which meanness comes compared
Speaker 1: to kindness online, you know, it's like to
Speaker 1: be kind.
Speaker 1: It's probably the most radical it is and
Speaker 1: badass and punk punk thing that you could
Speaker 1: do, and actually one of the hardest things
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 1: It's actually so easy to judge.
Speaker 1: I heard this.
Speaker 1: I don't know who he was.
Speaker 1: I recognize him from a movie of some sort.
Speaker 1: He was doing a valedictorian speech for the
Speaker 1: graduation class and I don't know if those
Speaker 1: are the same.
Speaker 1: A valedictorian is probably somebody who's
Speaker 1: part of the graduation class.
Speaker 1: Anyways, he was doing a graduation speech
Speaker 1: as the guest speaker and he was like you
Speaker 1: can always tell who the smartest and not so
Speaker 1: smartest people in the room are.
Speaker 1: The meanest people are always the less
Speaker 1: intelligent and the nicest people are the
Speaker 1: most.
Speaker 1: And he said whether this is true or not,
Speaker 1: this isn't you know.
Speaker 1: Obviously it's a metaphor for those
Speaker 1: listening, but it's like.
Speaker 1: It's like we are wired with fight or flight
Speaker 1: and negative bias to see others that are
Speaker 1: different to us, who don't, who are not,
Speaker 1: birds of a feather to us, as a mystery,
Speaker 1: different and potential danger, whether
Speaker 1: that is sex, gender, orientation, ethnicity,
Speaker 1: color.
Speaker 1: Uh, we are wired by a lot biology,
Speaker 1: biologically, to a certain degree, to go,
Speaker 1: oh, that's different, is this a threat or
Speaker 1: you know, or an advantage, you know,
Speaker 1: whether we kind of like it or not, let
Speaker 1: alone all the social norms that then get
Speaker 1: built upon those things.
Speaker 1: He goes, and to be kind is to have enough.
Speaker 1: He's in enough of the last of our nervous
Speaker 1: system.
Speaker 1: You know the prefrontal cortex, you know
Speaker 1: the youngest part of our nervous system and
Speaker 1: to analyzing and to go, oh, but that person,
Speaker 1: just because they're a different color than
Speaker 1: me, doesn't mean they're a threat.
Speaker 1: Because that person likes that sexual
Speaker 1: orientation or because of that political
Speaker 1: persuasion or faith persuasion, that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're different to me and
Speaker 1: they see the world maybe differently to how
Speaker 1: I see it or have a different perspective or
Speaker 1: a different preference, but they are not a
Speaker 1: threat to me and they are no different to
Speaker 1: me in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1: To have that cognitive practice, to be
Speaker 1: mindful enough and not a reptile, enough
Speaker 1: shows intelligence.
Speaker 1: So the meanest are actually the less
Speaker 1: intelligent, the most driven by primordial
Speaker 1: fears, and I guess what I'm making, a
Speaker 1: statement, is much as just like when you
Speaker 1: said kindness, most driven by primordial
Speaker 1: fears, and there was this always.
Speaker 1: You know, I guess, what I'm making, a
Speaker 1: statement as much as, just like when you
Speaker 1: said kindness, I'm really struck that it it
Speaker 1: utilizes our most advanced inner biological
Speaker 1: technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it does.
Speaker 1: Takes a lot to to love, to be kind it does
Speaker 1: when the world's driven by fear, a lot of
Speaker 1: it.
Speaker 1: To be kind it does when the world's driven
Speaker 1: by fear a lot of it and we're fed fear To
Speaker 1: bypass that.
Speaker 1: Enough to have enough regulation, fucking
Speaker 1: regulation, I mean.
Speaker 1: That's the main reason why I do it.
Speaker 1: Regulating is key.
Speaker 1: My biggest regrets, nine times out of ten,
Speaker 1: of the fact that I wasn't regulated enough,
Speaker 1: usually around the people I love the most
Speaker 1: or the people I was so wanted to be
Speaker 1: understood by you know how to regulate the
Speaker 1: fear in me.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, dan.
Speaker 1: There I was like I'm like man, I'm like my
Speaker 1: intuition's pretty spot on, my gut is
Speaker 1: pretty spot on and somehow I think she said
Speaker 1: it we both got to it's like it's actually
Speaker 1: not the intuition of the gut, it's the
Speaker 1: filter that has to go through to get to a
Speaker 1: thought form and an action.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the filter that my thoughts go
Speaker 1: through are survival and negative bias, so
Speaker 1: I'll get a fucking smell on something like
Speaker 1: something's not right.
Speaker 1: And then the filters it has to go through,
Speaker 1: which are going to be mixed with my trauma
Speaker 1: and my predispositions and everything else
Speaker 1: that I've inherited, either psychologically,
Speaker 1: physically, epigenetically, culturally.
Speaker 1: Psychologically, physically, epigenetically,
Speaker 1: culturally.
Speaker 1: It has to go through all that, all those
Speaker 1: biases, to then pop out.
Speaker 1: The other side is and this is what I think
Speaker 1: about that, or this is how I'm going to
Speaker 1: respond to it yeah, and I just find that
Speaker 1: really interesting that you know, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can have a great intuition, but if it's, if
Speaker 1: it's been translated through an app that
Speaker 1: has trauma bias- of some sort it's going to
Speaker 1: come back as defensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's the same way when they talk about AI
Speaker 1: or the internet.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, first of all it's not
Speaker 1: artificial, nor is it intelligent to a
Speaker 1: certain degree.
Speaker 1: First of all, it's not artificial.
Speaker 1: It's completely coded by us and all our
Speaker 1: bias our cultural and our racial bias and
Speaker 1: our political bias and you can see that
Speaker 1: online as we speak.
Speaker 1: And nor is it very intelligent.
Speaker 1: Sometimes, you know, like it's how we
Speaker 1: choose to filter and what the input and the
Speaker 1: data points that are coming in are just
Speaker 1: data points and it's like.
Speaker 1: It's like almost that kind of that Zen
Speaker 1: things.
Speaker 1: It's just stuff happening, it's just life.
Speaker 1: There's no meaning to any of it.
Speaker 1: And then we're us meaning making machines,
Speaker 1: we process it in this hardware and what
Speaker 1: pops out the other side can be anything
Speaker 1: from make America great again to uh, I
Speaker 1: choose not to eat any living animals to.
Speaker 1: You know, I do not understand that.
Speaker 1: That race or that religion and how we
Speaker 1: program, how we choose to regulate.
Speaker 1: That I find interesting.
Speaker 1: You know, by no means to anybody listening
Speaker 1: do I think I have any of the answers.
Speaker 1: I'm just profoundly struck by the filters
Speaker 1: in which we choose to take this data in.
Speaker 1: Yes, and then the narratives that we build
Speaker 1: them into, that create our realities.
Speaker 2: Absolutely what I'm imagining, or you know
Speaker 2: what I, the way I interpret that is through,
Speaker 2: you know it's actually going back to
Speaker 2: another buddhist.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm really into'm really into
Speaker 2: Buddhism, but it's the way I I'm regulating
Speaker 2: as well through that technology of Buddhism
Speaker 2: and it's the concept that how you label it,
Speaker 2: how I label it, is how it appears.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm creating, and the more
Speaker 2: conscious I am of my labeling style um,
Speaker 2: habit, habit, passion, it is not not
Speaker 2: passion, pretty suspicious, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Predispositions on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the more I am afraid of being at the
Speaker 2: mercy of that or like a victim of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, filtering, you know, the more, the
Speaker 2: more I'm conscious of how I'm filtering and
Speaker 2: and all.
Speaker 2: It only requires a consciousness, it
Speaker 2: doesn't require anything, it doesn't
Speaker 2: require me to like even labor or effort.
Speaker 2: What I want my new filter to be, at that
Speaker 2: point, the just, even the recognition of
Speaker 2: what is already there is incredibly
Speaker 2: liberating, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you actually realize I wrote
Speaker 1: that.
Speaker 1: Oh, I just made that up.
Speaker 1: I think's where, if it's related back to
Speaker 1: anything we're talking about, I keep on
Speaker 1: wanting to say here's a bit of
Speaker 1: predisposition.
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to protect myself and so
Speaker 1: I want to say to keep on saying to
Speaker 1: everybody we don't know what we're talking
Speaker 1: about, we're just jamming here and you know,
Speaker 1: we're just taking a bunch of evidence that
Speaker 1: we've collated and some things work for us.
Speaker 1: They may not work for you, but the you know,
Speaker 1: yeah, framing, you know how we choose to
Speaker 1: frame.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like it is the end all and
Speaker 1: be all, and again, that's what I was.
Speaker 1: I found myself again.
Speaker 1: Is that, and that's, I think, why we do the
Speaker 1: practice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that maybe in a glimpse, in a
Speaker 1: fucking mere little glimpse, you're like,
Speaker 1: oh, I just made that up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I just made that.
Speaker 1: Like I had enough distance from the canvas,
Speaker 1: yeah, to observe myself, you know, to be
Speaker 1: the observer for five seconds.
Speaker 1: I think that's what the practice like
Speaker 1: allows, and usually for me, probably,
Speaker 1: because how much I practice when you know
Speaker 1: is, I get glimpses mm-hmm and I'll sit
Speaker 1: there and watch this person yeah, who's
Speaker 1: myself and and what they're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hanging up the clothes, and I should.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, it's like and
Speaker 2: that's what are you saying.
Speaker 1: You just know, and I've actually said it
Speaker 1: out loud hey to myself, hey myself, hey,
Speaker 1: you made that up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what will happen is stories
Speaker 1: are so important to me and to, I think, us
Speaker 1: as human beings we're built off stories.
Speaker 1: They can instantly, for me, I'm really
Speaker 1: noticing cause a chemical reaction in my
Speaker 1: body.
Speaker 1: If I get a good enough story, I get scared
Speaker 1: or I get moved in some way.
Speaker 1: I have a predensity to protect myself be
Speaker 1: scared.
Speaker 1: It's fight or flight.
Speaker 1: So I interested in just instantly start
Speaker 1: making more cortisol.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I, all of a sudden I'm finding a
Speaker 1: chemical reaction in my body that literally
Speaker 1: I'll come down from, like I'll have to,
Speaker 1: like I have to take a walk, yeah, and wait
Speaker 1: until I'm sober, yeah, from this chemical
Speaker 1: infiltration.
Speaker 1: That's just from a thought yeah, from your
Speaker 1: own thought.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not even from a thought planned by an
Speaker 2: external party, not even a real thing
Speaker 2: generated.
Speaker 1: We're wacky we're great, it's amazing, but
Speaker 1: I think it's what the practice is allowed.
Speaker 1: You know, in some way another I guess it's
Speaker 1: just those brief moments of like oh, that's
Speaker 1: narrative, that's not real.
Speaker 1: And I think once you start looking at life
Speaker 1: a little bit that way, that's when things
Speaker 1: can almost feel a little bit unsettling at
Speaker 1: times because you're like, oh, this is a
Speaker 1: collection of narratives, yeah, yeah, oh
Speaker 1: shit, yeah, I think it's kind of what
Speaker 1: happened to jim carrey a little bit, like
Speaker 1: he kind of had this great point of view
Speaker 1: perspective on himself and everything else
Speaker 1: and it's like what's canadian mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what's jim mean.
Speaker 1: I mean, really, it's a frame, it's an idea,
Speaker 1: it's a good agreement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that who I am?
Speaker 1: Like he can really start going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's great right out there.
Speaker 1: A little bit as far as yeah, all the things
Speaker 1: are yeah I like.
Speaker 1: I like that it allows just a little bit of
Speaker 1: spacing between me and that narrative to
Speaker 1: see maybe there's an author and do I choose
Speaker 1: to actually want to go on that?
Speaker 2: story right or not?
Speaker 1: a little bit more choice a little bit more
Speaker 1: choice no-transcript.