Mark Butler: Hey, this is Mark and you're listening to a podcast for coaches.
I'm here today with a coach, a client of mine, Paula.
How do you pronounce your last name?
Paula Ingebrigtsen.
Ingebrigtsen.
Yep.
Ingebrigtsen.
You know about the world famous track athlete track family with that last name?
I do not.
Oh, like, like there's a Norwegian speaking of ADHD, by the way, uh,
there's a, there's a Norwegian family who are all absolute star studs in track.
Who shared your last name?
Paula Engebretson: I'll have to look into that.
Mark Butler: Things are on my mind.
You are a coach.
You're a coach who specializes in people, as far as I understand it,
people who either have an ADHD diagnosis or see ADHD tendencies in themselves.
Yeah.
Is that how you would say it?
How would you say it?
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
So I work with people who have ADHD or ADHD tendencies is
how I tend to talk about it.
Yeah.
And help them basically step out of the neurotypical box of all the ways we
think we should do things and actually work with their brain to get stuff done.
Mark Butler: Their way of being.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
Uh, do you have an ADHD diagnosis?
I do.
I was diagnosed in 2016.
How did you come to that diagnosis?
So, uh, prior to being a coach, I was a professor.
and I was in a training to support students with learning differences
and they got to the ADHD topic and they put the slide up and I was like,
Oh dear God, that's me in a slide.
And it was very eyeopening of, you know, how it presents itself for
adults in academia and, um, went and got a diagnosis and through
the whole process and everything.
So that's how I learned.
Mark Butler: Was there one, was there one or Uh, two things that jumped out where
they were your particular pain points.
Uh, yeah, so it was a struggle for you.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah, it was a lot around, uh, the working memory component,
especially in the academic space, it's.
Very challenging for me to read like a really dense article and
actually remember what I just read.
Uh, I'd have to circle back and keep rereading and that kind
of thing was a huge component.
And then also, um, need for a deadline, some sort of accountability, some
sort of thing on the other side, otherwise time just expands forever
and you can't get that thing done.
Yeah.
Mark Butler: Were you, uh, were you struggling?
Were you frustrated?
Were you, when you saw the slide and you saw yourself in that slide,
were you functioning at a high level and completely happy and content?
Or were you struggling in some noticeable ways and you said,
Oh, maybe this is the problem?
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
So I was definitely struggling.
And I think when people get.
a diagnosis.
It, it lands in a lot of different ways, right?
People all kind of go through the process very differently.
For me, it was a huge relief because I was so convinced that I was just the problem
and not smart enough to be in academia.
And to be able to go, Oh, that's why, like, this is why it's so
hard is because of these things.
Now I can actually put in supports.
It's not that I'm, like, if I'm just too stupid, what am I going to do?
There's nothing I can do.
But now it's like, oh, I just have working memory issues.
I just need deadlines.
Like, I need these different things that I can work with.
So it was actually really a relief and more empowering for
me, but of course for everybody, there's a, is a different journey.
Yeah,
Mark Butler: that makes sense.
Um, how do you go from there to coaching?
Paula Engebretson: Yeah, so I started like I'm working with my psychiatrist
and a therapist and getting my meds figured out in like that whole process.
Uh, and in that process, I was working on a lot of stuff around
perfectionism because that's another thing that I deal with.
And that kind of led me into the personal development space, which
then led me into the coaching space.
And Went through certification, uh, and just knew that this is
the, the area that I wanted to explore, uh, and to, to work on.
Cause it was.
Um, you know, my thing that I've worked through,
Mark Butler: I I've always had this question for you.
I don't, I don't know that I have ADHD.
I won't get tested, but I, I read your emails.
You know, I read your emails.
You know, I like your emails.
That's part of why you're here.
And I've read your promotional messages for your programs.
And I think they're excellent.
I've told you, I think they're excellent.
I think they're great models of really high quality copywriting and
persuasive, uh, really good persuasive stuff with none of the grossness that
can creep into these kinds of things.
And I also find myself thinking, so does Paula have a hard
time corralling her audience?
Into a room, a program, like to show up to an appointment.
I mean, I will say that, frankly, I've never even considered signing up for a
program because I know I won't do it.
I won't.
If there's like a calendar or a, or a sequence, I'm just like, cool, that's
going to be amazing for somebody else.
I'm not ever going to look at that again, but I know that my way of being
isn't everybody else's way of being.
So I've always been curious.
Cause I know you have a very successful business.
I'm your bookkeeper.
You have a fantastic business.
So have you had to deal with that?
How have you dealt with that?
Do you have people like me who are like, Oh man, it's just like herding cats.
Like, what's it like to be you in your practice?
Paula Engebretson: Yeah, so I definitely do.
I will also say, I think I attract.
Um, a lot of people who are regimented and feet that feel supportive
for them, but it's really hard.
Like they can't figure out their level of structure that feels good.
Um, and so they're craving it, but they can't find it.
So usually they want the syllabus, like they want the step by step.
So I will say that there is that component, um, but what I like
Mark Butler: for that person,
Paula Engebretson: I think it does.
Totally.
I think it does.
But within that, there's still kind of the rebellion against,
don't tell me to do that.
I don't want to.
Yes.
Don't.
Yes.
And so, um, I do like in my programs, I am always trying to speak to
different learning styles and create the freedom within the container
of like, you can do this or not.
You can try this or that if you feel like it.
Like a lot of.
self selection.
So you have to get in the container, but then there's a lot of room to play
within it in a way that works for you.
Mark Butler: Makes total sense.
I'm sure you navigate it beautifully.
It's funny.
You mentioned the rebellion thing.
That just reminded me of one of your messages.
It didn't seem like too long ago, but in one of your emails recently, you talked
about rebelling against going to bed.
Oh, bedtime
Paula Engebretson: procrastination.
Mark Butler: Oh yeah.
And I was like, Oh, I'm rebelling.
That's why I do that.
It really, it really, I was like, that is so I still do it.
I mean, I think last night, I think I couldn't sleep.
My sleep is horrible.
And I think I was, I think I was like on YouTube shorts at like two in the
morning and I used to really punish myself for that and be mad at myself.
Now I just like, whatever, this is what we're doing right now.
Uh, I'll go to sleep eventually.
But your message about bedtime procrastination just, I was
like, Oh, she's good at this.
Yeah.
It was very resonant
Paula Engebretson: for me.
Yeah.
It's, I mean, the whole title is Revenge Bedtime Procrastination.
And it is.
It's this like.
You're, you're pushing back often because we're doing all these things all
day long for other people, for other, and we're never giving ourselves the
white space that we actually want to watch YouTube shorts or to work on that
hobby or to like whatever the thing is.
And so we grab it at night because that's the time we have.
Yeah.
Mark Butler: At, at high, at great cost.
Yes.
But I still do it.
And you describe my reasons perfectly.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
So that's part of why you're here today, because, um, on this podcast,
I talk a lot about resonance and I talk about how, where there is
resonance with a person or an audience.
It's easier for me.
It's easier to think in terms of a person than an audience.
Audience is this nebulous idea.
I don't know.
I think a lot of people find that very overwhelming.
I certainly have, but I talk a lot about emotional resonance with a person and how,
when there's resonance, there is action.
And when there is not resonance, there is not action.
And you, and I, it's a very strong dark line between those two.
You, and you do this thing, um, with your content where it's resonant
with me, but it's also very reliable.
In terms of how frequently you're in my inbox, which as a person who
deals with other coaches, I think a lot about, you know, how often
is a person sending me messages?
What's the, what's the proportion of sort of, uh, sales or persuasive
messages versus other kinds of messages.
You strike a really nice balance there, but as the, as the person with ADHD
who helps people with ADHD, uh, in your case, I find you fascinating because
you're so reliable and consistent.
Paula Engebretson: Mm.
Mark Butler: Whereas I consider myself always on the brink of disappearing
for an extended period of time Yes, like right now today I have felt my
energy for a podcast for coaches.
I've felt my energy going in a direction I'm like, oh, I think
a big break might be coming
Paula Engebretson: Uh,
Mark Butler: and hopefully I won't just disappear like I often do
Paula Engebretson: But
Mark Butler: I might and you don't and I think that's interesting
Paula Engebretson: How
Mark Butler: did we get there?
Yeah.
Or is that just not something you've struggled with?
Paula Engebretson: No, no, it, it certainly has.
Um, and there's, there's a couple of things that are coming up for me.
One of them is, um, as ADHDers, we tend to be, uh, black and white thinkers
generally, like all or nothing.
And that can be not supportive at all.
And I can really use it for me by creating rules of like, Oh,
we just do this on Tuesdays.
This is what we do on Tuesdays.
You write an email,
Mark Butler: but then you don't
Paula Engebretson: rebel against that.
Not usually.
And because of like these other things.
So when I'm making these rules for myself, they're done
intentionally from like a full body.
Yes.
Which sounds so weird, but like all of me, not here.
It doesn't
Mark Butler: a full body.
Yes.
I love a describe it because I've often described, uh, like if I'm
having a no, I'll, I'll say like, no, it's like a, it's a total internal.
No.
Paula Engebretson: Yes.
Mark Butler: So for you to say a full body yes totally resonates with me.
Okay.
Paula Engebretson: Yes.
So when I'm agreeing and actually creating like a rule for myself, a
guideline, it's a support, like I want it and it has to be a full body yes.
It can't be an intellectual should, but that's what everyone else says.
Like everyone says I should have a podcast.
So I mean, I guess it's kind of interesting and then you
like talk yourself into it.
It needs to start for me in my body of like, yes.
Mark Butler: Oh, okay.
Do you, do you, I'm just going to get freaked.
Everybody just.
Do carry on.
I'm going to get some free coaching.
Um, do you, do you, do you not struggle with apathy?
I struggle.
So what you just said totally resonates with me about, um,
wanting to get to a full body.
Yes.
I feel like I lose that.
Yes.
Like it's here.
Um, I once told my coach that, Oh, that's funny that I'm going to say
this on this podcast, but it's okay.
I'm going to say it on this podcast.
I was joking with my coach.
I'm like, I kill with middle aged women.
Middle aged women, just Mark Butler and middle aged women.
It's just like peanut butter and jelly.
It's just like, just great.
And I was making fun of myself to my coach because I like, I'm so inconsistent.
I said, here's what I need.
Liz, I need like 30 middle aged women in the room next to my office.
And then every week or so I just need him to like knock the door down
and tell me how wonderful I am and tell me how important my work is.
And if they would just do that, I bet I would always publish my podcast.
And I was making fun of myself and we were having a good laugh about it.
She said, she's like, I, you're being funny and I get it.
She said, but do you understand that what you're also doing is you've
created this very clear model for re contextualizing the importance of
what you're doing because you lose it.
And I'm like, Oh, she said, so if those women were there and if they
would kick your door down and tell you how special you are, it's not about
your ego as much as you think it is.
It's also largely about you wanting to know what to do and when to do it.
And why it matters.
Paula Engebretson: And why it matters.
That's what's coming up for me there.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
It's like, because, because on any given Thursday when I'm supposed to
publish this podcast, I don't remember why it matters and I don't care.
It's just gone.
Do your rules help with that?
Do you not struggle with that or what have you done around that?
Yeah.
Paula Engebretson: So the, the why behind this full body, yes,
these decisions that I've made.
Again, that, that's part of it and it has to be so compelling.
And for me, the pain I was in was so great before I had these tools
that I'm like, are you kidding me?
This has to be out there.
Like I am so driven, create generational change for people with ADHD.
Like that is what I want to do because it's passed on.
And like, if I can get.
Um, tools to the parents than the kiddos will actually know
how to navigate this stuff.
And I'm like, stop it, go like, this is it.
Let's go.
And so it's so strong in me.
And then on the other side, it's a topic that I'm fascinated about.
So I love to research it.
Like, I have a research brain.
I think you've mentioned on the pod like you like to do
research and gather and learn.
I feel like I've heard you say this before.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
Very inconsistently, though.
Okay.
And I'm a skimmer.
Mm hmm.
I, I'm gonna read the headlines.
I'm gonna read the headlines and then act like I know about the topic.
Mm hmm.
That's more how I tend to be.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
Mark Butler: You're more of like, you're gonna go deep.
Paula Engebretson: I do.
I like to, like, go all the way down the rabbit hole.
Mark Butler: Love it.
Okay.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
Yeah.
But for me, it's that why, like that why behind it is what helps when
there's the apathy or if I'm like, well, is this, does this even matter?
Yeah.
That's one of the things I think can be a problem.
It gets, if somebody chooses, Oh, I'm going to do a podcast.
I want to be consistent in my podcast.
Yeah.
And you're doing it.
Because you want to get more clients, which is like great.
I mean, you do this for marketing and stuff, but that can quickly lead to
like, but I've put out 17 episodes and I haven't gotten a client yet.
What's wrong?
And like, yes, you want to look at this.
And I remember your episode on like 200 some episodes and have
we gotten a client or whatever?
Um, yes, we want to look at that.
But also.
I can, I think it can slip into this kind of entitlement of like,
well, I should have clients by now.
I've put out this much stuff.
I think it needs to be a different reason to really drive it.
The consistency.
Mark Butler: The way I've described that before is, um, in myself is I
seem to do things that I can't not do.
Like they just, they won't leave me alone.
Uh, it sounds like that is part of your drive as it relates to supporting,
you know, the people with ADHD.
So are you telling me that you don't really experience, uh, significant
or sustained dips in that energy?
That could be a totally unfair question.
I'm just actually curious because I'm projecting myself onto you.
I'm curious, do you not find yourself going through seasons
where you're like, I don't care and I don't remember why I cared?
Paula Engebretson: I, I have gone through that in terms of like creating?
Getting out an email, getting out an episode, uh, I have a running list,
I literally call it my brilliant ideas list, but it's like all of
my podcasts, like anything that pops in my mind, I jot it down.
It's all in that one place.
And if I read through that, it can usually make me go, Oh yeah, here are the things.
These are the things that matter.
This is why I'm doing this.
And it's all in one place.
It is.
It's just a Google Doc.
Google Doc.
Like, bulleted
Mark Butler: sure you have ADHD?
Paula Engebretson: I'm sure.
Because I think it's supposed to be
Mark Butler: like nine places.
Paula Engebretson: Nine places.
Some sticky notes that maybe are like under your desk.
Yeah.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
You're, you've evolved.
You're, you're operating on a higher plane at this point.
Paula Engebretson: When I was writing my dissertation, it was all sticky
notes and all the things and all the,
Mark Butler: I've learned, I've learned.
So you can go there, you can go to your ideas list and reading your
ideas list re energizes you for, for the work, for the, for today's
email, today's podcast episode.
Paula Engebretson: I mean, another, I, I see a lot of
clients, like, I love coaching.
I don't see clients just like once or twice a week.
So when I'm interacting with them, I'm always fueled by like, Oh, that's an idea.
That's a podcast.
I got to get that out there.
And you capture that?
Yeah.
In your Google Doc?
Like I just got off a call and I was like, Oh yeah, I want to do an episode.
So I don't know, an hour and a half ago, I finished my call.
I got off, we were talking about decision making and how we spin in
like the small decisions and we're talking about this quick strategy.
And so I jotted it down and then I went and recorded a 15 minute podcast because
I had like the time right before our call.
I was like, I'll just do that quick.
Mark Butler: Yes.
And you do well in that kind of like high pressure sort of, I have 15 minutes,
I'm going to record this podcast.
Paula Engebretson: That's where I, I go up and down.
Um, like sometimes I need a lot more spaciousness cause I want to think through
it and I, my perfectionism will come in and it's like, Oh no, let's literally
have a thesis written on this topic.
And have you done enough research yet?
And all of that, like that's where I can get tripped up.
Um, And so I like to use a timeframe to push me out of my usual
tendency, which is over researching, over preparing, over overing.
Yeah.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
Yeah.
You, you've gotten through that with things like a doctoral
dissertation, apparently.
Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm.
Mark Butler: I don't think I knew you had a PhD.
That's cool.
How did you do that?
So I, I find that With a lot of crying.
Yeah?
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
It's miserable.
Academia is not my, not for me.
Mark Butler: I, I find that, uh, I, I'm fascinated by people who
can break big projects into small pieces and work on them over time.
That is mysterious to me.
I tend to, I tend to be sort of, um,
I I'll do it in 15 minutes or not at all.
Paula Engebretson: Yep.
Mark Butler: And if it, and if it extends, if it extends into another
work session, I'm out, like it's, it's gone with the one, the one exception
being in a software development.
Okay.
What's different?
Um, there's probably, probably there's no difference.
The, my perceived difference is with software development.
If I'm writing code.
I can leave it and come back to it.
And it's, Oh, this is useful.
I think it's that I can leave it and come back to it and recontextualize
where I am in the puzzle,
like, okay, I know what I want it to do.
I know where it breaks and that tells me we're going to work on this piece
right now, and we're going to work on it until it's doing what I want
it to do the way I want it to do it.
Paula Engebretson: So you have a clear objective.
You know exactly where you're starting.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
True.
Yep.
Paula Engebretson: And your brain has that just right level of challenge.
That's fun for you to figure out the problem.
Mark Butler: Yes.
Which I, which I totally feel with programming and I mostly don't
feel it with content creation.
That's interesting.
Paula Engebretson: I,
Mark Butler: uh, uh, a podcast episode or a newsletter, those don't feel like,
feel like puzzles to be solved to me.
Paula Engebretson: That's so one of the questions I'm always asking
myself is where's the friction?
There's something in the way that doesn't make it feel easy and smooth where with
software development for you, there's no friction or very little friction,
Mark Butler: right?
Pretty much none.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
So for me, the content creation, because my identity is a teacher,
I have always been a teacher.
Like I did not play house when I was little.
I played school and I gave my sister homework.
I am a teacher.
And so my brain is always thinking about that's really interesting.
How could I break that down?
How can I teach that?
Like what are the three steps here?
Like my brain is thinking in that process.
Or how can I write that in an email that would be like compelling and
they could actually take action on it, even if they did nothing else.
And so my brain is like puzzling that.
Uh huh.
And so what I'm thinking about is like,
what,
like, when you think about podcasting, when you think about content creation,
is there anything that does feel easy?
Mark Butler: Yeah.
Hitting record and talking into a microphone feels very easy and always has.
Uh, I've, I've made, I may have said this on this podcast, I've,
I've definitely made this too easy.
Joke or comparison with my own coach and my wife and with other people if
you tell me to write a book it It seems Absurd, it doesn't even seem impossible.
It just seems like you told me to float up to the moon Yeah, just like
a ridiculous thing to even discuss But if you tell me that there's a stadium
with 70, 000 people in it and the speaker canceled and we need someone
to go talk Into that microphone for the next hour I'm like, Oh, I'll do it.
Do I have a topic or do you just, what, what do you need?
And I will feel, yes, I'll feel nervous, but it'll be an excited nerve and
I'll, I'll be, I'll be thrilled to walk up the stairs onto that stage.
So when it comes to content creation, pushing, hitting record on them and
talking into a microphone feels very easy to me, uh, preparing for that
episode in some structured way or some researched way feels impossible to me.
Paula Engebretson: Why do you think you have to do it in that way?
Mark Butler: Um, I, I mostly don't at this point, luckily, thanks to good coaching
and therapy, uh, practice, and I also have had enough feedback where people,
my favorite compliment to receive is when people tell me they like how I think.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
Mark Butler: And once I was willing to accept that compliment and adopt it into
my view of myself, make it my identity, people like how I think, well, then maybe
that means my job is to think out loud.
Oh,
Paula Engebretson: I love
Mark Butler: that.
And once I got there, uh, it became much easier to, for example, jump back into
this podcast and record something like 25 episodes since I took a long break.
That sort of thing.
Mm hmm.
Where I struggle now is I, I fall back into apathy.
And by apathy, it doesn't, I don't mean I don't care about the people.
It means I don't think that what I'm saying matters.
Yeah.
That no one is worse off if I don't talk into this microphone.
But why would I do it?
Because I could be writing software right now and that would be
really pumping me with dopamine.
But then I do, I'll hear from people and they'll say, Oh, that one episode
or that one thing you've said.
And then I think, Oh, okay, I better talk into the microphone then because it
seems to be helpful to at least somebody.
Paula Engebretson: And do you capture those anywhere?
Mark Butler: No.
Heavens no.
How?
I mean, I don't.
Like, even
Paula Engebretson: a, have, have someone on your team, anything positive,
feedback, throw it in a folder.
Mark Butler: Well, uh, I mean, I don't have a team, so I would,
I mean, I could text myself.
I could text myself.
That's probably been my most reliable form of capture ever,
Paula Engebretson: is
Mark Butler: I just send myself a text.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
Mark Butler: I've never done it with, uh, uh, somebody, you know, thanking me
for the podcast or anything like that.
Yeah.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah, I remember when I was, I, so when I was still
a professor, and again, I did, was not having a great time there.
And so I was blogging as just like an outlet.
And I remember hearing somebody say that they created just this folder of
compliments for whenever they get crappy feedback of like, okay, there it is.
But let me go read this supportive stuff as well.
Um, And if we can remember to save it, capture it.
Yeah.
Mark Butler: Yeah.
It's very helpful though.
Of course, me being the way I am now, I'm going to go write software.
I'll, I'll.
Leave everything that it matters for like three weeks and I'll go write software.
That's a compliment reminder system And then I'll never look at it again
That's really also thinking I'm sorry go ahead I was gonna say it's helpful
because if I were to Text myself if somebody says night something nice to
me if I were to text myself Then there would just be a text feed on my phone.
I could just scroll through it.
That would be that's low friction Very low for
Paula Engebretson: yeah.
Yeah You Yes,
I'm thinking too for, you know, consistent creation, whatever,
I think there's an importance in deciding what consistency means.
Yeah.
For the person.
Right?
Does it mean every week?
Does it mean posting every day?
Does it mean, like, I love the guideline of I don't skip more
than one day or more than one week.
Like, so it gives me the, the flexibility of, okay, we missed it.
It's fine.
We just don't skip more than one.
In a row.
Mark Butler: Yes, I've heard that.
I'm weirdly willing to skip more than one in a row.
That's it.
Maybe you
Paula Engebretson: extend the container.
Mark Butler: Uh, I've, one time I was talking to a group of coaches and they
were saying, what about consistency?
And I said, well, I get to define consistency and for me, consistency
might mean three episodes in a year.
At the time it felt like I was lying to myself though.
It didn't, that didn't feel like an internal truth.
It felt like a justification.
Like a rationalization.
Um, so I think that for me, consistency might not mean weekly
probably doesn't mean I get, just get to show up when I feel like it, that feels.
Self, self deceptive too.
Paula Engebretson: I do think it's interesting how you mentioned, though,
you have your, you have waves, like, is there a way, and this is for everybody
too, like, is there a way to ride that wave where if you have ideas
and you're in flow, can you record a handful of episodes so they're in
the, you know, in the can or whatever?
Mark Butler: Yes.
And that is something that my own coach, Liz, has encouraged me to do because we've
talked a lot about the wave metaphor.
And she said, you probably, she said, you could, you could create
52 newsletters in a year, but you might create 20 of them in a day.
Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm.
Mark Butler: Uh, and that resonated with me.
I, then you have to have a system for taking those 20 and making
sure they get to the world.
Because I'm one that would be very prone to having a hundred newsletters
in a folder that never get published.
I have a bunch of videos right now actually in a folder that
will likely never be published.
That's solvable.
I realize that's, that's, that's solvable.
Paula Engebretson: And what's the, like, cause they are the, again,
I'm like, what's the friction?
Is it, is it a decision of like what am I going to do with these videos?
What's the point of them?
I need to make a decision or is it the friction of now I have to go
into the scheduler and do the stupid, tedious stuff of like, when is it
going to go out and dah, dah, dah, dah.
What's the friction?
Mark Butler: That's tons of friction.
I don't know how many, just a few times I've signed up for like social
media, scheduling, something software.
And then I do the trial and then I usually pay for it for one or two
months and then finally admit to myself, I'm never going to do this.
And then I canceled it again.
So what, uh, my wife and I've talked a lot about this cause she feels frustrated when
she, she's like, you have things to say, they help people, but you won't do it.
And I'm like, well, I would do it.
She said, well, how do I help?
And I said, well, if I could just Record if I could push record and
then push stop and then never and then that's all I do then it could happen
Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm,
Mark Butler: and she said, okay.
Well, then what would I need to do?
And I said, well I guess you'd have to go find the recordings
and publish them wherever they're gonna be published and she's agreed
to it And then I just drop it.
I don't ever go back to it.
I think what this reveals Uh paula because what you're telling
me is so helpful and useful.
I think I have I think I have um, Persistent mental and emotional
stuff around publishing that that is probably more of the friction
than the procedural friction
The procedural friction is so solvable because either I can write software
that solves it which I love to do Or my wife is willing to if I show her a
google drive folder She'll take that and publish it wherever I need it to
be published I think I have deeper resistance to publishing, period, now
that we're talking about it, now that you're giving me this great coaching.
Paula Engebretson: Right.
Like, is it actually a full body yes?
Mark Butler: It's not.
Paula Engebretson: It never has been.
That's where it is, then.
Mark Butler: When you said this earlier, it resonated instantly.
It's a should.
It's a should that sometimes turns into a yes when I feel like someone
has benefited, but that actually might just mean it's a stronger should.
Cause if someone says, Oh, your episode about X really helped me out.
I had someone email me a couple of months ago and say, your
episode about the urge to create a course saved me 3, 000 that day.
And she told me the story.
Wow.
Feels amazing.
Doesn't happen.
You know, that doesn't happen often.
We're talking like small handfuls of times.
These things happen over a lifetime, but it's not like I have people kicking down
my door and telling me I'm wonderful.
It happens every once in a while, but I think even in those moments, what
it does for me is it makes me think it just makes the should stronger
because
don't add it as a baseline.
I'm not excited to publish stuff.
It's not what I'm falling asleep at night thinking about.
It's not what I'm waking up in the morning thinking about.
And for me, I promote that as a big signal.
You have
Paula Engebretson: that.
Mark Butler: You do have
Paula Engebretson: that.
Yeah.
Like that is what I'm, I'm always problem solving that.
Like, how can I teach this?
How can I share this?
Ooh, that would be a really interesting analogy.
How can I bring that in?
Like I was literally watching Mary Poppins the other day and I was like, That line
needs to be a podcast episode and then it was like, I'm literally talking about
Mary Poppins in one of my episodes.
What?
Mark Butler: Yeah, but your stuff is good.
It comes through.
I haven't listened to your podcast, but I read a high percentage of your emails.
It comes through very clearly.
Your enthusiasm for your work is so obvious.
So that's awesome.
I'm not sure what to do with this realization.
Paula Engebretson: I was thinking, again, I mean, if it's just, if
it's a should, that's something to, to sit with and notice, right.
And just to like, let that be for, to see what else arises.
But I was also thinking about in terms of the format, like maybe
you do better with responding.
If people sending questions, is it easier for you to hop on
and just speak to the question?
Mark Butler: Definitely.
Paula Engebretson: You know, like.
Yes.
Everybody just send in their questions.
What do you think about this?
And you're like, Let me tell you in 15 minutes.
Here we go.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Mark Butler: Much, much easier.
So easy.
But I tell myself a story that those are questionably useful.
Really?
I do.
I know.
And I know that we'll find evidence that I'm wrong, but I can also
find evidence that I'm right.
Uh, it's actually, I said this, I do this office hours thing where people can just
show up and do exactly what you just said, it's free and people show up and we chat.
And I told the people there that that experience for me is simultaneously
pretty exhilarating and I enjoy it a lot.
But the rest of those days that I do those sessions, my anxiety is way elevated in
large part because I don't remember what I said and I don't remember if it was.
Like the three things, uh, my friend, Jody Moore gave me this a long time ago.
She, she recommended a book to me and this was in the book.
When we talk to ourselves, we always want to be saying, you know, is it true?
Is it kind?
And is it useful?
Which I think is a brilliant filter that I don't, I find that when I do these
live Q and a sessions, I can't look back later in the day and easily know
whether it was true, kind, or useful.
And I, and I get really, uh, dysregulated around it.
So it's super easy in the moment and then like stressful for the rest of the day.
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
Through an ADHD lens.
I'm like, Oh, that's a bunch of rejection sensitivity coming up right there.
What's
Mark Butler: that?
What's that?
Paula Engebretson: I
Mark Butler: don't know about that.
Paula Engebretson: So some people talk about it as rejection sensitive dysphoria,
other people rejection sensitivity, but it's just, uh, it's, under the executive
function of emotional regulation, but it's this intense experience that a lot
of ADHDers have of rejection, perceived rejection, potential rejection, we
reject ourselves instead, it's so strong that it'll keep us from publishing,
it'll keep us from even reaching out to somebody to like make a connection.
If you send a text, like there will be times where I'll send a
text and someone will respond back.
And if I'm not managing my mind, I'll be like, they didn't have
their normal amount of emojis.
What did I do wrong?
You know?
And it's like, clearly I said something wrong.
There weren't three hearts after it.
Um, it's just that you can be really intense and kind of put this filter over.
Yeah.
Whatever it is you're doing.
And I see it come up with a lot of people who are in the coaching
or content creation space, because there's such an intense experience of.
Potential rejection perceived rejection that kind of thing that resonates.
Mark Butler: I I don't uh, I don't
I don't tend to worry that people won't like me or that But the way you're
describing that experience and the way I feel on the days where I do these
live q a's That there seems to be some overlap There my honestly my biggest
concern when I do those is was I nice because I worry a lot that like I was rude
Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm
Mark Butler: and or that I was dismissive or that I was Anyway, that may be neither
here nor there, but yes, it is the easiest way for me to produce content.
If I had an appointment where people just showed up and asked questions and then
someone took the recording of that and they just made it exist in the world,
content would be frictionless for me.
It would be essentially zero cost.
Well, if I could manage the emotions after the fact, it would be zero cost.
Paula Engebretson: I was like, that would be the thing then,
like if you wanted to do the work around the mind management after
that could be a streamlined approach to consistent content
creation, at least in this space.
Thank you.
Mark Butler: What have that's so helpful as we, as we wind down, I'm curious,
what would you call the fruits of your consistency in your, in your publishing
over the years that you've been doing it?
Paula Engebretson: So
I think for my, for myself, when I first started out, It was kind of
fruits just for myself, because with a podcast, I don't know, it's a slow burn.
Usually you're not creating a lot of clients right away.
But I learned so much about myself, about ADHD, about all of these different areas.
Like there was so much growth for myself.
Because again, I think when you teach, you learn things at a deeper level as well.
And I'm always thinking about teaching in the podcast.
So that's like a huge component.
Um, but once I actually started building up more of an audience, it's, it's such
a rewarding experience to be able to share something and to know that it's
an accessible thing that's out there.
I genuinely think anyone who has ADHD needs these supports.
So it's just a really fulfilling.
Experience to be able to put this stuff out there.
Mark Butler: So it's meaning and yeah, it's
Paula Engebretson: yeah, there's meaning in it
Mark Butler: That's amazing.
That's amazing.
And I can see again.
I'm your bookkeeper So I I I can interact with you and know that you're
deriving a lot of good meaning and and richness from it And also I know
that the business is doing great.
Um, What else would you want to say in conclusion to to anybody in the audience
who might resonate with adhd tendencies?
Paula Engebretson: I think I would say
If it feels off You If it, you're just, if you just keep forcing yourself
and you're like, it shouldn't be this hard, you're probably right.
And there might be a different way to work with it.
And you might be trying to kind of force yourself into the shoulds.
Of, well, this is how I was taught and this is how they teach it in this
funnel thing or whatever you, you know, like, it's just very possible that your
brain just needs a different type of scaffolding, a different type of support.
So it can feel easier.
Mark Butler: That's
Paula Engebretson: fantastic.
Mark Butler: Where should I send people to find you?
Paula Engebretson: Yeah, they can, uh, head to imbusybeingawesome.
com my, uh, what podcast is called I'm busy being awesome.
Um, so fantastic.
I love
Mark Butler: that name.
Your program is called we're busy being awesome, right?
Paula Engebretson: Yeah.
So the group is we're busy being awesome.
Company.
I'm busy being awesome.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Mark Butler: I'm so grateful that you'd come here and do this.
Uh, I'm excited to send people your way.
And unless
Paula Engebretson: you have
Mark Butler: a problem with it, this will be live probably in about
an hour, because that's how I am.
Paula Engebretson: I love it.
Fantastic.
Mark Butler: So I'll get you linked up in the notes and we'll
send you a couple of people.
Paula Engebretson: Awesome.
Thanks so much for having me.
Mark Butler: Thank you, Paula.
Thanks everybody for listening and yeah, this podcast will
probably be back next week, but.
You know, who could say really?
All right, folks.
Have a good one.
See you, Paula.