WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.989 --> 00:00:03.480 Mark Butler: Hey, this is Mark and you're listening to a podcast for coaches. 00:00:03.619 --> 00:00:08.840 I'm here today with a coach, a client of mine, Paula. 00:00:08.940 --> 00:00:09.790 How do you pronounce your last name? 00:00:09.790 --> 00:00:10.629 Paula Ingebrigtsen. 00:00:11.140 --> 00:00:11.710 Ingebrigtsen. 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:12.030 Yep. 00:00:12.159 --> 00:00:12.689 Ingebrigtsen. 00:00:13.660 --> 00:00:16.969 You know about the world famous track athlete track family with that last name? 00:00:17.590 --> 00:00:18.330 I do not. 00:00:18.539 --> 00:00:23.070 Oh, like, like there's a Norwegian speaking of ADHD, by the way, uh, 00:00:23.090 --> 00:00:31.740 there's a, there's a Norwegian family who are all absolute star studs in track. 00:00:32.644 --> 00:00:33.655 Who shared your last name? 00:00:33.655 --> 00:00:36.195 Paula Engebretson: I'll have to look into that. 00:00:36.195 --> 00:00:38.265 Mark Butler: Things are on my mind. 00:00:40.394 --> 00:00:41.815 You are a coach. 00:00:42.475 --> 00:00:45.695 You're a coach who specializes in people, as far as I understand it, 00:00:45.815 --> 00:00:53.355 people who either have an ADHD diagnosis or see ADHD tendencies in themselves. 00:00:54.050 --> 00:00:54.370 Yeah. 00:00:54.690 --> 00:00:54.840 Yeah. 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:55.790 Is that how you would say it? 00:00:55.860 --> 00:00:56.570 How would you say it? 00:00:57.160 --> 00:00:57.510 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:00:57.510 --> 00:01:01.789 So I work with people who have ADHD or ADHD tendencies is 00:01:01.789 --> 00:01:04.069 how I tend to talk about it. 00:01:04.140 --> 00:01:04.550 Yeah. 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:09.269 And help them basically step out of the neurotypical box of all the ways we 00:01:09.269 --> 00:01:14.329 think we should do things and actually work with their brain to get stuff done. 00:01:14.330 --> 00:01:15.460 Mark Butler: Their way of being. 00:01:15.919 --> 00:01:16.330 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:01:16.449 --> 00:01:18.060 Uh, do you have an ADHD diagnosis? 00:01:18.535 --> 00:01:18.975 I do. 00:01:19.615 --> 00:01:22.505 I was diagnosed in 2016. 00:01:23.105 --> 00:01:24.765 How did you come to that diagnosis? 00:01:26.095 --> 00:01:29.665 So, uh, prior to being a coach, I was a professor. 00:01:30.535 --> 00:01:37.085 and I was in a training to support students with learning differences 00:01:37.285 --> 00:01:41.834 and they got to the ADHD topic and they put the slide up and I was like, 00:01:41.865 --> 00:01:44.045 Oh dear God, that's me in a slide. 00:01:44.665 --> 00:01:48.825 And it was very eyeopening of, you know, how it presents itself for 00:01:49.474 --> 00:01:53.645 adults in academia and, um, went and got a diagnosis and through 00:01:53.645 --> 00:01:55.065 the whole process and everything. 00:01:55.075 --> 00:01:56.925 So that's how I learned. 00:01:57.285 --> 00:02:01.550 Mark Butler: Was there one, was there one or Uh, two things that jumped out where 00:02:01.810 --> 00:02:03.690 they were your particular pain points. 00:02:04.890 --> 00:02:07.280 Uh, yeah, so it was a struggle for you. 00:02:07.720 --> 00:02:12.150 Paula Engebretson: Yeah, it was a lot around, uh, the working memory component, 00:02:12.200 --> 00:02:14.270 especially in the academic space, it's. 00:02:14.875 --> 00:02:18.645 Very challenging for me to read like a really dense article and 00:02:18.675 --> 00:02:20.665 actually remember what I just read. 00:02:21.055 --> 00:02:23.965 Uh, I'd have to circle back and keep rereading and that kind 00:02:23.965 --> 00:02:25.675 of thing was a huge component. 00:02:26.075 --> 00:02:32.635 And then also, um, need for a deadline, some sort of accountability, some 00:02:32.635 --> 00:02:36.905 sort of thing on the other side, otherwise time just expands forever 00:02:37.275 --> 00:02:38.484 and you can't get that thing done. 00:02:39.005 --> 00:02:39.105 Yeah. 00:02:39.185 --> 00:02:39.445 Yeah. 00:02:40.865 --> 00:02:44.045 Mark Butler: Were you, uh, were you struggling? 00:02:45.295 --> 00:02:46.225 Were you frustrated? 00:02:46.225 --> 00:02:50.654 Were you, when you saw the slide and you saw yourself in that slide, 00:02:51.935 --> 00:02:54.915 were you functioning at a high level and completely happy and content? 00:02:54.925 --> 00:02:58.535 Or were you struggling in some noticeable ways and you said, 00:02:58.855 --> 00:03:00.465 Oh, maybe this is the problem? 00:03:01.045 --> 00:03:01.575 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:03:01.965 --> 00:03:03.665 So I was definitely struggling. 00:03:03.795 --> 00:03:07.385 And I think when people get. 00:03:08.079 --> 00:03:08.940 a diagnosis. 00:03:08.950 --> 00:03:11.019 It, it lands in a lot of different ways, right? 00:03:11.019 --> 00:03:14.430 People all kind of go through the process very differently. 00:03:14.899 --> 00:03:19.950 For me, it was a huge relief because I was so convinced that I was just the problem 00:03:19.950 --> 00:03:21.480 and not smart enough to be in academia. 00:03:22.350 --> 00:03:28.009 And to be able to go, Oh, that's why, like, this is why it's so 00:03:28.019 --> 00:03:30.670 hard is because of these things. 00:03:31.260 --> 00:03:32.970 Now I can actually put in supports. 00:03:32.970 --> 00:03:36.190 It's not that I'm, like, if I'm just too stupid, what am I going to do? 00:03:36.580 --> 00:03:37.490 There's nothing I can do. 00:03:37.820 --> 00:03:40.880 But now it's like, oh, I just have working memory issues. 00:03:41.649 --> 00:03:42.719 I just need deadlines. 00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:45.920 Like, I need these different things that I can work with. 00:03:46.189 --> 00:03:49.810 So it was actually really a relief and more empowering for 00:03:49.820 --> 00:03:52.710 me, but of course for everybody, there's a, is a different journey. 00:03:53.885 --> 00:03:54.315 Yeah, 00:03:54.475 --> 00:03:55.144 Mark Butler: that makes sense. 00:03:55.805 --> 00:03:58.995 Um, how do you go from there to coaching? 00:04:00.145 --> 00:04:07.135 Paula Engebretson: Yeah, so I started like I'm working with my psychiatrist 00:04:07.135 --> 00:04:11.204 and a therapist and getting my meds figured out in like that whole process. 00:04:11.554 --> 00:04:15.865 Uh, and in that process, I was working on a lot of stuff around 00:04:15.965 --> 00:04:18.974 perfectionism because that's another thing that I deal with. 00:04:19.425 --> 00:04:23.164 And that kind of led me into the personal development space, which 00:04:23.164 --> 00:04:24.855 then led me into the coaching space. 00:04:24.875 --> 00:04:30.830 And Went through certification, uh, and just knew that this is 00:04:31.300 --> 00:04:35.390 the, the area that I wanted to explore, uh, and to, to work on. 00:04:35.400 --> 00:04:35.990 Cause it was. 00:04:36.070 --> 00:04:39.290 Um, you know, my thing that I've worked through, 00:04:41.690 --> 00:04:43.820 Mark Butler: I I've always had this question for you. 00:04:46.770 --> 00:04:50.100 I don't, I don't know that I have ADHD. 00:04:50.200 --> 00:04:55.780 I won't get tested, but I, I read your emails. 00:04:55.780 --> 00:04:56.999 You know, I read your emails. 00:04:57.019 --> 00:04:57.870 You know, I like your emails. 00:04:57.870 --> 00:04:59.089 That's part of why you're here. 00:04:59.219 --> 00:05:04.880 And I've read your promotional messages for your programs. 00:05:05.520 --> 00:05:06.360 And I think they're excellent. 00:05:06.380 --> 00:05:07.819 I've told you, I think they're excellent. 00:05:07.840 --> 00:05:12.499 I think they're great models of really high quality copywriting and 00:05:12.499 --> 00:05:17.059 persuasive, uh, really good persuasive stuff with none of the grossness that 00:05:17.349 --> 00:05:19.199 can creep into these kinds of things. 00:05:19.929 --> 00:05:27.349 And I also find myself thinking, so does Paula have a hard 00:05:27.350 --> 00:05:29.280 time corralling her audience? 00:05:30.520 --> 00:05:37.049 Into a room, a program, like to show up to an appointment. 00:05:37.430 --> 00:05:42.119 I mean, I will say that, frankly, I've never even considered signing up for a 00:05:42.119 --> 00:05:44.109 program because I know I won't do it. 00:05:45.340 --> 00:05:46.110 I won't. 00:05:47.379 --> 00:05:53.419 If there's like a calendar or a, or a sequence, I'm just like, cool, that's 00:05:53.419 --> 00:05:54.919 going to be amazing for somebody else. 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:58.770 I'm not ever going to look at that again, but I know that my way of being 00:05:58.770 --> 00:06:00.030 isn't everybody else's way of being. 00:06:00.030 --> 00:06:00.880 So I've always been curious. 00:06:00.880 --> 00:06:02.809 Cause I know you have a very successful business. 00:06:02.860 --> 00:06:03.609 I'm your bookkeeper. 00:06:05.429 --> 00:06:06.739 You have a fantastic business. 00:06:06.739 --> 00:06:09.120 So have you had to deal with that? 00:06:09.180 --> 00:06:10.640 How have you dealt with that? 00:06:11.020 --> 00:06:15.760 Do you have people like me who are like, Oh man, it's just like herding cats. 00:06:16.290 --> 00:06:18.380 Like, what's it like to be you in your practice? 00:06:19.099 --> 00:06:21.809 Paula Engebretson: Yeah, so I definitely do. 00:06:21.830 --> 00:06:24.069 I will also say, I think I attract. 00:06:25.110 --> 00:06:30.420 Um, a lot of people who are regimented and feet that feel supportive 00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:31.870 for them, but it's really hard. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.340 Like they can't figure out their level of structure that feels good. 00:06:35.880 --> 00:06:39.020 Um, and so they're craving it, but they can't find it. 00:06:39.250 --> 00:06:44.210 So usually they want the syllabus, like they want the step by step. 00:06:44.359 --> 00:06:48.710 So I will say that there is that component, um, but what I like 00:06:48.750 --> 00:06:49.550 Mark Butler: for that person, 00:06:49.830 --> 00:06:50.850 Paula Engebretson: I think it does. 00:06:50.890 --> 00:06:51.040 Totally. 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:52.170 I think it does. 00:06:53.780 --> 00:06:56.500 But within that, there's still kind of the rebellion against, 00:06:56.500 --> 00:06:57.740 don't tell me to do that. 00:06:57.810 --> 00:06:58.670 I don't want to. 00:06:59.289 --> 00:06:59.420 Yes. 00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:00.280 Don't. 00:07:00.590 --> 00:07:00.770 Yes. 00:07:00.770 --> 00:07:01.149 Yes. 00:07:01.150 --> 00:07:07.520 And so, um, I do like in my programs, I am always trying to speak to 00:07:07.789 --> 00:07:11.509 different learning styles and create the freedom within the container 00:07:11.509 --> 00:07:13.450 of like, you can do this or not. 00:07:13.619 --> 00:07:16.599 You can try this or that if you feel like it. 00:07:16.609 --> 00:07:17.710 Like a lot of. 00:07:18.445 --> 00:07:19.455 self selection. 00:07:19.494 --> 00:07:22.925 So you have to get in the container, but then there's a lot of room to play 00:07:22.925 --> 00:07:24.715 within it in a way that works for you. 00:07:25.905 --> 00:07:26.745 Mark Butler: Makes total sense. 00:07:27.275 --> 00:07:29.104 I'm sure you navigate it beautifully. 00:07:29.474 --> 00:07:29.844 It's funny. 00:07:29.844 --> 00:07:30.894 You mentioned the rebellion thing. 00:07:30.895 --> 00:07:32.514 That just reminded me of one of your messages. 00:07:32.665 --> 00:07:35.555 It didn't seem like too long ago, but in one of your emails recently, you talked 00:07:35.555 --> 00:07:37.465 about rebelling against going to bed. 00:07:38.245 --> 00:07:38.855 Oh, bedtime 00:07:38.855 --> 00:07:39.665 Paula Engebretson: procrastination. 00:07:39.755 --> 00:07:40.165 Mark Butler: Oh yeah. 00:07:40.845 --> 00:07:44.005 And I was like, Oh, I'm rebelling. 00:07:44.034 --> 00:07:45.344 That's why I do that. 00:07:45.765 --> 00:07:51.155 It really, it really, I was like, that is so I still do it. 00:07:52.275 --> 00:07:55.974 I mean, I think last night, I think I couldn't sleep. 00:07:56.265 --> 00:07:57.515 My sleep is horrible. 00:07:58.375 --> 00:08:01.734 And I think I was, I think I was like on YouTube shorts at like two in the 00:08:01.734 --> 00:08:07.554 morning and I used to really punish myself for that and be mad at myself. 00:08:07.554 --> 00:08:10.134 Now I just like, whatever, this is what we're doing right now. 00:08:11.005 --> 00:08:12.195 Uh, I'll go to sleep eventually. 00:08:12.395 --> 00:08:16.114 But your message about bedtime procrastination just, I was 00:08:16.114 --> 00:08:17.335 like, Oh, she's good at this. 00:08:17.710 --> 00:08:18.080 Yeah. 00:08:18.140 --> 00:08:18.419 Yeah. 00:08:18.429 --> 00:08:19.590 It was very resonant 00:08:19.950 --> 00:08:21.140 Paula Engebretson: for me. 00:08:21.909 --> 00:08:22.580 Yeah. 00:08:22.820 --> 00:08:27.260 It's, I mean, the whole title is Revenge Bedtime Procrastination. 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:28.170 And it is. 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:29.250 It's this like. 00:08:30.210 --> 00:08:33.789 You're, you're pushing back often because we're doing all these things all 00:08:33.789 --> 00:08:37.430 day long for other people, for other, and we're never giving ourselves the 00:08:37.430 --> 00:08:43.799 white space that we actually want to watch YouTube shorts or to work on that 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.200 hobby or to like whatever the thing is. 00:08:46.880 --> 00:08:49.939 And so we grab it at night because that's the time we have. 00:08:50.490 --> 00:08:50.830 Yeah. 00:08:51.810 --> 00:08:53.740 Mark Butler: At, at high, at great cost. 00:08:54.290 --> 00:08:54.800 Yes. 00:08:54.850 --> 00:08:55.720 But I still do it. 00:08:55.990 --> 00:08:58.520 And you describe my reasons perfectly. 00:08:59.010 --> 00:08:59.570 Mm hmm. 00:09:00.115 --> 00:09:00.285 Yeah. 00:09:00.285 --> 00:09:04.295 So that's part of why you're here today, because, um, on this podcast, 00:09:04.375 --> 00:09:08.574 I talk a lot about resonance and I talk about how, where there is 00:09:08.575 --> 00:09:10.935 resonance with a person or an audience. 00:09:11.675 --> 00:09:12.515 It's easier for me. 00:09:12.515 --> 00:09:14.845 It's easier to think in terms of a person than an audience. 00:09:14.845 --> 00:09:16.255 Audience is this nebulous idea. 00:09:16.255 --> 00:09:16.705 I don't know. 00:09:17.605 --> 00:09:19.705 I think a lot of people find that very overwhelming. 00:09:19.735 --> 00:09:25.734 I certainly have, but I talk a lot about emotional resonance with a person and how, 00:09:25.744 --> 00:09:29.994 when there's resonance, there is action. 00:09:30.034 --> 00:09:32.625 And when there is not resonance, there is not action. 00:09:32.675 --> 00:09:36.835 And you, and I, it's a very strong dark line between those two. 00:09:40.435 --> 00:09:44.045 You, and you do this thing, um, with your content where it's resonant 00:09:44.055 --> 00:09:46.774 with me, but it's also very reliable. 00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:53.199 In terms of how frequently you're in my inbox, which as a person who 00:09:53.199 --> 00:09:56.210 deals with other coaches, I think a lot about, you know, how often 00:09:56.210 --> 00:09:57.630 is a person sending me messages? 00:09:57.630 --> 00:10:01.640 What's the, what's the proportion of sort of, uh, sales or persuasive 00:10:01.640 --> 00:10:05.380 messages versus other kinds of messages. 00:10:06.090 --> 00:10:10.970 You strike a really nice balance there, but as the, as the person with ADHD 00:10:10.970 --> 00:10:16.870 who helps people with ADHD, uh, in your case, I find you fascinating because 00:10:16.870 --> 00:10:18.480 you're so reliable and consistent. 00:10:18.549 --> 00:10:18.849 Paula Engebretson: Mm. 00:10:19.319 --> 00:10:23.210 Mark Butler: Whereas I consider myself always on the brink of disappearing 00:10:23.210 --> 00:10:29.440 for an extended period of time Yes, like right now today I have felt my 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:31.810 energy for a podcast for coaches. 00:10:32.110 --> 00:10:34.739 I've felt my energy going in a direction I'm like, oh, I think 00:10:34.739 --> 00:10:36.049 a big break might be coming 00:10:36.050 --> 00:10:38.519 Paula Engebretson: Uh, 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:42.800 Mark Butler: and hopefully I won't just disappear like I often do 00:10:42.800 --> 00:10:44.069 Paula Engebretson: But 00:10:44.430 --> 00:10:49.340 Mark Butler: I might and you don't and I think that's interesting 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:50.569 Paula Engebretson: How 00:10:50.950 --> 00:10:51.760 Mark Butler: did we get there? 00:10:53.310 --> 00:10:53.890 Yeah. 00:10:54.280 --> 00:10:56.350 Or is that just not something you've struggled with? 00:10:57.230 --> 00:10:59.320 Paula Engebretson: No, no, it, it certainly has. 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:05.750 Um, and there's, there's a couple of things that are coming up for me. 00:11:05.780 --> 00:11:13.959 One of them is, um, as ADHDers, we tend to be, uh, black and white thinkers 00:11:14.110 --> 00:11:16.110 generally, like all or nothing. 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.030 And that can be not supportive at all. 00:11:20.180 --> 00:11:25.590 And I can really use it for me by creating rules of like, Oh, 00:11:25.590 --> 00:11:26.970 we just do this on Tuesdays. 00:11:28.170 --> 00:11:29.260 This is what we do on Tuesdays. 00:11:29.260 --> 00:11:29.860 You write an email, 00:11:31.300 --> 00:11:31.840 Mark Butler: but then you don't 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:32.880 Paula Engebretson: rebel against that. 00:11:33.820 --> 00:11:35.400 Not usually. 00:11:35.410 --> 00:11:38.500 And because of like these other things. 00:11:38.760 --> 00:11:43.680 So when I'm making these rules for myself, they're done 00:11:43.710 --> 00:11:47.770 intentionally from like a full body. 00:11:47.890 --> 00:11:48.390 Yes. 00:11:48.409 --> 00:11:51.000 Which sounds so weird, but like all of me, not here. 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:51.550 It doesn't 00:11:52.270 --> 00:11:52.710 Mark Butler: a full body. 00:11:52.920 --> 00:11:53.540 Yes. 00:11:53.930 --> 00:11:57.390 I love a describe it because I've often described, uh, like if I'm 00:11:57.390 --> 00:12:00.919 having a no, I'll, I'll say like, no, it's like a, it's a total internal. 00:12:00.930 --> 00:12:01.280 No. 00:12:01.995 --> 00:12:02.465 Paula Engebretson: Yes. 00:12:02.525 --> 00:12:05.525 Mark Butler: So for you to say a full body yes totally resonates with me. 00:12:05.575 --> 00:12:05.975 Okay. 00:12:06.265 --> 00:12:06.625 Paula Engebretson: Yes. 00:12:06.635 --> 00:12:12.255 So when I'm agreeing and actually creating like a rule for myself, a 00:12:12.255 --> 00:12:18.534 guideline, it's a support, like I want it and it has to be a full body yes. 00:12:18.734 --> 00:12:23.125 It can't be an intellectual should, but that's what everyone else says. 00:12:23.205 --> 00:12:25.205 Like everyone says I should have a podcast. 00:12:25.215 --> 00:12:27.685 So I mean, I guess it's kind of interesting and then you 00:12:27.685 --> 00:12:29.195 like talk yourself into it. 00:12:29.335 --> 00:12:32.265 It needs to start for me in my body of like, yes. 00:12:34.265 --> 00:12:35.105 Mark Butler: Oh, okay. 00:12:36.135 --> 00:12:38.315 Do you, do you, I'm just going to get freaked. 00:12:38.345 --> 00:12:38.985 Everybody just. 00:12:39.550 --> 00:12:40.290 Do carry on. 00:12:40.290 --> 00:12:41.200 I'm going to get some free coaching. 00:12:41.520 --> 00:12:47.960 Um, do you, do you, do you not struggle with apathy? 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:50.260 I struggle. 00:12:50.670 --> 00:12:54.479 So what you just said totally resonates with me about, um, 00:12:55.680 --> 00:12:56.779 wanting to get to a full body. 00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:57.069 Yes. 00:12:57.109 --> 00:12:58.519 I feel like I lose that. 00:12:58.519 --> 00:12:59.009 Yes. 00:12:59.119 --> 00:13:00.139 Like it's here. 00:13:01.110 --> 00:13:05.379 Um, I once told my coach that, Oh, that's funny that I'm going to say 00:13:05.379 --> 00:13:06.839 this on this podcast, but it's okay. 00:13:06.839 --> 00:13:07.930 I'm going to say it on this podcast. 00:13:08.630 --> 00:13:09.740 I was joking with my coach. 00:13:09.740 --> 00:13:11.789 I'm like, I kill with middle aged women. 00:13:12.055 --> 00:13:15.895 Middle aged women, just Mark Butler and middle aged women. 00:13:15.895 --> 00:13:17.305 It's just like peanut butter and jelly. 00:13:17.365 --> 00:13:19.855 It's just like, just great. 00:13:20.214 --> 00:13:24.325 And I was making fun of myself to my coach because I like, I'm so inconsistent. 00:13:24.685 --> 00:13:25.714 I said, here's what I need. 00:13:25.714 --> 00:13:30.465 Liz, I need like 30 middle aged women in the room next to my office. 00:13:30.895 --> 00:13:34.765 And then every week or so I just need him to like knock the door down 00:13:34.795 --> 00:13:39.655 and tell me how wonderful I am and tell me how important my work is. 00:13:40.104 --> 00:13:43.665 And if they would just do that, I bet I would always publish my podcast. 00:13:44.695 --> 00:13:47.825 And I was making fun of myself and we were having a good laugh about it. 00:13:47.825 --> 00:13:51.275 She said, she's like, I, you're being funny and I get it. 00:13:51.275 --> 00:13:54.774 She said, but do you understand that what you're also doing is you've 00:13:54.774 --> 00:14:00.454 created this very clear model for re contextualizing the importance of 00:14:00.454 --> 00:14:02.724 what you're doing because you lose it. 00:14:02.744 --> 00:14:06.815 And I'm like, Oh, she said, so if those women were there and if they 00:14:06.815 --> 00:14:11.185 would kick your door down and tell you how special you are, it's not about 00:14:11.185 --> 00:14:12.775 your ego as much as you think it is. 00:14:12.785 --> 00:14:17.534 It's also largely about you wanting to know what to do and when to do it. 00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:19.990 And why it matters. 00:14:20.079 --> 00:14:21.050 Paula Engebretson: And why it matters. 00:14:21.069 --> 00:14:22.750 That's what's coming up for me there. 00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:23.149 Mark Butler: Yeah. 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:26.680 It's like, because, because on any given Thursday when I'm supposed to 00:14:26.680 --> 00:14:31.569 publish this podcast, I don't remember why it matters and I don't care. 00:14:33.069 --> 00:14:33.469 It's just gone. 00:14:34.770 --> 00:14:36.699 Do your rules help with that? 00:14:36.709 --> 00:14:40.729 Do you not struggle with that or what have you done around that? 00:14:41.689 --> 00:14:42.179 Yeah. 00:14:42.209 --> 00:14:48.560 Paula Engebretson: So the, the why behind this full body, yes, 00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:50.379 these decisions that I've made. 00:14:51.055 --> 00:14:55.085 Again, that, that's part of it and it has to be so compelling. 00:14:55.635 --> 00:15:01.135 And for me, the pain I was in was so great before I had these tools 00:15:01.234 --> 00:15:02.725 that I'm like, are you kidding me? 00:15:02.725 --> 00:15:04.255 This has to be out there. 00:15:04.885 --> 00:15:11.494 Like I am so driven, create generational change for people with ADHD. 00:15:11.505 --> 00:15:14.785 Like that is what I want to do because it's passed on. 00:15:14.795 --> 00:15:16.175 And like, if I can get. 00:15:16.199 --> 00:15:18.940 Um, tools to the parents than the kiddos will actually know 00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:20.450 how to navigate this stuff. 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:23.980 And I'm like, stop it, go like, this is it. 00:15:24.010 --> 00:15:24.270 Let's go. 00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:29.320 And so it's so strong in me. 00:15:30.670 --> 00:15:35.700 And then on the other side, it's a topic that I'm fascinated about. 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:37.570 So I love to research it. 00:15:38.630 --> 00:15:39.849 Like, I have a research brain. 00:15:39.849 --> 00:15:42.110 I think you've mentioned on the pod like you like to do 00:15:42.110 --> 00:15:44.120 research and gather and learn. 00:15:44.130 --> 00:15:45.699 I feel like I've heard you say this before. 00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:46.039 Mark Butler: Yeah. 00:15:46.050 --> 00:15:47.380 Very inconsistently, though. 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:48.450 Okay. 00:15:48.550 --> 00:15:50.379 And I'm a skimmer. 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:51.150 Mm hmm. 00:15:51.150 --> 00:15:52.660 I, I'm gonna read the headlines. 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.720 I'm gonna read the headlines and then act like I know about the topic. 00:15:56.210 --> 00:15:56.640 Mm hmm. 00:15:56.850 --> 00:15:58.590 That's more how I tend to be. 00:15:59.080 --> 00:15:59.700 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:02.570 Mark Butler: You're more of like, you're gonna go deep. 00:16:03.340 --> 00:16:03.720 Paula Engebretson: I do. 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.910 I like to, like, go all the way down the rabbit hole. 00:16:06.920 --> 00:16:07.250 Mark Butler: Love it. 00:16:07.290 --> 00:16:07.380 Okay. 00:16:08.280 --> 00:16:08.480 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:16:08.530 --> 00:16:08.930 Yeah. 00:16:09.390 --> 00:16:09.940 Yeah. 00:16:10.630 --> 00:16:15.559 But for me, it's that why, like that why behind it is what helps when 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:19.070 there's the apathy or if I'm like, well, is this, does this even matter? 00:16:19.229 --> 00:16:19.469 Yeah. 00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:21.719 That's one of the things I think can be a problem. 00:16:21.719 --> 00:16:26.490 It gets, if somebody chooses, Oh, I'm going to do a podcast. 00:16:26.520 --> 00:16:28.500 I want to be consistent in my podcast. 00:16:28.770 --> 00:16:28.790 Yeah. 00:16:28.950 --> 00:16:29.950 And you're doing it. 00:16:30.329 --> 00:16:33.020 Because you want to get more clients, which is like great. 00:16:33.040 --> 00:16:38.290 I mean, you do this for marketing and stuff, but that can quickly lead to 00:16:38.290 --> 00:16:41.890 like, but I've put out 17 episodes and I haven't gotten a client yet. 00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:42.729 What's wrong? 00:16:42.770 --> 00:16:44.309 And like, yes, you want to look at this. 00:16:44.310 --> 00:16:47.329 And I remember your episode on like 200 some episodes and have 00:16:47.329 --> 00:16:48.390 we gotten a client or whatever? 00:16:48.780 --> 00:16:50.430 Um, yes, we want to look at that. 00:16:51.079 --> 00:16:52.140 But also. 00:16:53.505 --> 00:16:56.265 I can, I think it can slip into this kind of entitlement of like, 00:16:56.545 --> 00:16:57.805 well, I should have clients by now. 00:16:57.805 --> 00:16:59.025 I've put out this much stuff. 00:16:59.245 --> 00:17:03.175 I think it needs to be a different reason to really drive it. 00:17:03.875 --> 00:17:04.755 The consistency. 00:17:04.965 --> 00:17:09.665 Mark Butler: The way I've described that before is, um, in myself is I 00:17:09.684 --> 00:17:12.155 seem to do things that I can't not do. 00:17:14.665 --> 00:17:16.755 Like they just, they won't leave me alone. 00:17:18.974 --> 00:17:24.735 Uh, it sounds like that is part of your drive as it relates to supporting, 00:17:24.735 --> 00:17:26.310 you know, the people with ADHD. 00:17:27.220 --> 00:17:33.250 So are you telling me that you don't really experience, uh, significant 00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:38.730 or sustained dips in that energy? 00:17:38.780 --> 00:17:40.389 That could be a totally unfair question. 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.680 I'm just actually curious because I'm projecting myself onto you. 00:17:46.029 --> 00:17:49.100 I'm curious, do you not find yourself going through seasons 00:17:49.100 --> 00:17:52.530 where you're like, I don't care and I don't remember why I cared? 00:17:57.520 --> 00:18:01.740 Paula Engebretson: I, I have gone through that in terms of like creating? 00:18:02.375 --> 00:18:09.945 Getting out an email, getting out an episode, uh, I have a running list, 00:18:10.015 --> 00:18:13.335 I literally call it my brilliant ideas list, but it's like all of 00:18:13.335 --> 00:18:16.514 my podcasts, like anything that pops in my mind, I jot it down. 00:18:16.525 --> 00:18:17.774 It's all in that one place. 00:18:18.174 --> 00:18:23.595 And if I read through that, it can usually make me go, Oh yeah, here are the things. 00:18:23.895 --> 00:18:25.075 These are the things that matter. 00:18:25.405 --> 00:18:26.465 This is why I'm doing this. 00:18:26.485 --> 00:18:27.955 And it's all in one place. 00:18:28.375 --> 00:18:28.835 It is. 00:18:28.835 --> 00:18:29.815 It's just a Google Doc. 00:18:30.014 --> 00:18:30.764 Google Doc. 00:18:30.955 --> 00:18:32.705 Like, bulleted 00:18:32.825 --> 00:18:34.105 Mark Butler: sure you have ADHD? 00:18:35.005 --> 00:18:35.105 Paula Engebretson: I'm sure. 00:18:35.105 --> 00:18:36.065 Because I think it's supposed to be 00:18:36.065 --> 00:18:37.265 Mark Butler: like nine places. 00:18:37.465 --> 00:18:38.164 Paula Engebretson: Nine places. 00:18:38.164 --> 00:18:41.355 Some sticky notes that maybe are like under your desk. 00:18:41.435 --> 00:18:41.765 Yeah. 00:18:43.454 --> 00:18:43.954 Mark Butler: Yeah. 00:18:44.045 --> 00:18:45.414 You're, you've evolved. 00:18:45.675 --> 00:18:48.085 You're, you're operating on a higher plane at this point. 00:18:48.495 --> 00:18:50.815 Paula Engebretson: When I was writing my dissertation, it was all sticky 00:18:50.815 --> 00:18:52.344 notes and all the things and all the, 00:18:53.385 --> 00:18:54.605 Mark Butler: I've learned, I've learned. 00:18:55.984 --> 00:18:59.165 So you can go there, you can go to your ideas list and reading your 00:18:59.165 --> 00:19:04.634 ideas list re energizes you for, for the work, for the, for today's 00:19:04.634 --> 00:19:06.214 email, today's podcast episode. 00:19:08.035 --> 00:19:10.415 Paula Engebretson: I mean, another, I, I see a lot of 00:19:10.415 --> 00:19:12.195 clients, like, I love coaching. 00:19:12.195 --> 00:19:15.875 I don't see clients just like once or twice a week. 00:19:15.875 --> 00:19:20.135 So when I'm interacting with them, I'm always fueled by like, Oh, that's an idea. 00:19:20.175 --> 00:19:20.985 That's a podcast. 00:19:21.164 --> 00:19:22.034 I got to get that out there. 00:19:22.935 --> 00:19:23.975 And you capture that? 00:19:24.765 --> 00:19:25.275 Yeah. 00:19:25.725 --> 00:19:26.525 In your Google Doc? 00:19:28.294 --> 00:19:31.935 Like I just got off a call and I was like, Oh yeah, I want to do an episode. 00:19:32.475 --> 00:19:35.575 So I don't know, an hour and a half ago, I finished my call. 00:19:36.375 --> 00:19:39.364 I got off, we were talking about decision making and how we spin in 00:19:39.364 --> 00:19:42.855 like the small decisions and we're talking about this quick strategy. 00:19:42.974 --> 00:19:48.605 And so I jotted it down and then I went and recorded a 15 minute podcast because 00:19:48.605 --> 00:19:50.175 I had like the time right before our call. 00:19:50.175 --> 00:19:51.175 I was like, I'll just do that quick. 00:19:52.125 --> 00:19:52.545 Mark Butler: Yes. 00:19:53.325 --> 00:19:57.925 And you do well in that kind of like high pressure sort of, I have 15 minutes, 00:19:57.925 --> 00:19:59.015 I'm going to record this podcast. 00:19:59.945 --> 00:20:02.725 Paula Engebretson: That's where I, I go up and down. 00:20:03.135 --> 00:20:07.674 Um, like sometimes I need a lot more spaciousness cause I want to think through 00:20:07.674 --> 00:20:12.504 it and I, my perfectionism will come in and it's like, Oh no, let's literally 00:20:12.514 --> 00:20:14.825 have a thesis written on this topic. 00:20:14.825 --> 00:20:16.395 And have you done enough research yet? 00:20:16.435 --> 00:20:18.605 And all of that, like that's where I can get tripped up. 00:20:19.085 --> 00:20:27.565 Um, And so I like to use a timeframe to push me out of my usual 00:20:27.565 --> 00:20:32.975 tendency, which is over researching, over preparing, over overing. 00:20:33.235 --> 00:20:33.304 Yeah. 00:20:33.305 --> 00:20:34.474 Mark Butler: Yeah. 00:20:34.475 --> 00:20:34.764 Yeah. 00:20:34.774 --> 00:20:37.784 You, you've gotten through that with things like a doctoral 00:20:37.784 --> 00:20:38.875 dissertation, apparently. 00:20:39.374 --> 00:20:39.844 Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm. 00:20:39.884 --> 00:20:41.314 Mark Butler: I don't think I knew you had a PhD. 00:20:42.054 --> 00:20:42.284 That's cool. 00:20:44.505 --> 00:20:45.395 How did you do that? 00:20:45.705 --> 00:20:48.014 So I, I find that With a lot of crying. 00:20:48.745 --> 00:20:49.084 Yeah? 00:20:49.915 --> 00:20:49.935 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:20:50.594 --> 00:20:51.294 It's miserable. 00:20:51.295 --> 00:20:51.554 It's miserable. 00:20:51.554 --> 00:20:51.814 It's miserable. 00:20:52.425 --> 00:20:53.945 Academia is not my, not for me. 00:20:55.455 --> 00:21:02.105 Mark Butler: I, I find that, uh, I, I'm fascinated by people who 00:21:02.105 --> 00:21:07.135 can break big projects into small pieces and work on them over time. 00:21:08.034 --> 00:21:09.774 That is mysterious to me. 00:21:10.775 --> 00:21:14.045 I tend to, I tend to be sort of, um, 00:21:16.505 --> 00:21:18.565 I I'll do it in 15 minutes or not at all. 00:21:19.155 --> 00:21:19.515 Paula Engebretson: Yep. 00:21:20.755 --> 00:21:24.045 Mark Butler: And if it, and if it extends, if it extends into another 00:21:24.045 --> 00:21:30.215 work session, I'm out, like it's, it's gone with the one, the one exception 00:21:30.215 --> 00:21:31.905 being in a software development. 00:21:32.765 --> 00:21:33.175 Okay. 00:21:34.065 --> 00:21:34.764 What's different? 00:21:35.225 --> 00:21:39.295 Um, there's probably, probably there's no difference. 00:21:39.504 --> 00:21:43.555 The, my perceived difference is with software development. 00:21:45.815 --> 00:21:47.035 If I'm writing code. 00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:51.980 I can leave it and come back to it. 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.450 And it's, Oh, this is useful. 00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:57.270 I think it's that I can leave it and come back to it and recontextualize 00:21:57.300 --> 00:21:58.640 where I am in the puzzle, 00:22:00.840 --> 00:22:02.890 like, okay, I know what I want it to do. 00:22:03.300 --> 00:22:08.209 I know where it breaks and that tells me we're going to work on this piece 00:22:08.209 --> 00:22:13.120 right now, and we're going to work on it until it's doing what I want 00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:14.600 it to do the way I want it to do it. 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:17.010 Paula Engebretson: So you have a clear objective. 00:22:18.210 --> 00:22:20.050 You know exactly where you're starting. 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:21.900 Mark Butler: Yeah. 00:22:21.909 --> 00:22:22.150 True. 00:22:22.179 --> 00:22:22.389 Yep. 00:22:22.659 --> 00:22:25.060 Paula Engebretson: And your brain has that just right level of challenge. 00:22:25.060 --> 00:22:27.260 That's fun for you to figure out the problem. 00:22:28.530 --> 00:22:28.960 Mark Butler: Yes. 00:22:28.970 --> 00:22:33.629 Which I, which I totally feel with programming and I mostly don't 00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:35.000 feel it with content creation. 00:22:35.010 --> 00:22:35.770 That's interesting. 00:22:35.770 --> 00:22:36.510 Paula Engebretson: I, 00:22:36.510 --> 00:22:42.680 Mark Butler: uh, uh, a podcast episode or a newsletter, those don't feel like, 00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:45.060 feel like puzzles to be solved to me. 00:22:46.230 --> 00:22:49.410 Paula Engebretson: That's so one of the questions I'm always asking 00:22:49.410 --> 00:22:50.639 myself is where's the friction? 00:22:51.010 --> 00:22:54.740 There's something in the way that doesn't make it feel easy and smooth where with 00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:58.540 software development for you, there's no friction or very little friction, 00:22:58.880 --> 00:22:59.230 Mark Butler: right? 00:22:59.560 --> 00:23:00.320 Pretty much none. 00:23:00.650 --> 00:23:01.090 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:23:01.550 --> 00:23:06.460 So for me, the content creation, because my identity is a teacher, 00:23:07.449 --> 00:23:08.740 I have always been a teacher. 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:10.689 Like I did not play house when I was little. 00:23:10.749 --> 00:23:12.609 I played school and I gave my sister homework. 00:23:12.609 --> 00:23:14.239 I am a teacher. 00:23:15.879 --> 00:23:19.839 And so my brain is always thinking about that's really interesting. 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.849 How could I break that down? 00:23:21.510 --> 00:23:23.340 How can I teach that? 00:23:23.690 --> 00:23:25.230 Like what are the three steps here? 00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:27.270 Like my brain is thinking in that process. 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:31.770 Or how can I write that in an email that would be like compelling and 00:23:31.770 --> 00:23:34.770 they could actually take action on it, even if they did nothing else. 00:23:35.410 --> 00:23:37.909 And so my brain is like puzzling that. 00:23:38.020 --> 00:23:38.339 Uh huh. 00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:41.480 And so what I'm thinking about is like, 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:44.560 what, 00:23:48.460 --> 00:23:52.370 like, when you think about podcasting, when you think about content creation, 00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:56.529 is there anything that does feel easy? 00:23:58.340 --> 00:23:58.580 Mark Butler: Yeah. 00:23:58.580 --> 00:24:05.169 Hitting record and talking into a microphone feels very easy and always has. 00:24:05.170 --> 00:24:10.580 Uh, I've, I've made, I may have said this on this podcast, I've, 00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:11.564 I've definitely made this too easy. 00:24:12.385 --> 00:24:16.115 Joke or comparison with my own coach and my wife and with other people if 00:24:16.115 --> 00:24:24.174 you tell me to write a book it It seems Absurd, it doesn't even seem impossible. 00:24:24.174 --> 00:24:28.005 It just seems like you told me to float up to the moon Yeah, just like 00:24:28.005 --> 00:24:33.444 a ridiculous thing to even discuss But if you tell me that there's a stadium 00:24:33.444 --> 00:24:36.715 with 70, 000 people in it and the speaker canceled and we need someone 00:24:36.715 --> 00:24:41.014 to go talk Into that microphone for the next hour I'm like, Oh, I'll do it. 00:24:41.435 --> 00:24:44.355 Do I have a topic or do you just, what, what do you need? 00:24:44.854 --> 00:24:49.284 And I will feel, yes, I'll feel nervous, but it'll be an excited nerve and 00:24:49.284 --> 00:24:52.544 I'll, I'll be, I'll be thrilled to walk up the stairs onto that stage. 00:24:53.504 --> 00:24:57.995 So when it comes to content creation, pushing, hitting record on them and 00:24:57.995 --> 00:25:02.364 talking into a microphone feels very easy to me, uh, preparing for that 00:25:02.364 --> 00:25:09.044 episode in some structured way or some researched way feels impossible to me. 00:25:10.514 --> 00:25:12.814 Paula Engebretson: Why do you think you have to do it in that way? 00:25:13.155 --> 00:25:17.425 Mark Butler: Um, I, I mostly don't at this point, luckily, thanks to good coaching 00:25:17.425 --> 00:25:24.705 and therapy, uh, practice, and I also have had enough feedback where people, 00:25:27.384 --> 00:25:30.995 my favorite compliment to receive is when people tell me they like how I think. 00:25:31.995 --> 00:25:32.345 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:25:32.605 --> 00:25:35.835 Mark Butler: And once I was willing to accept that compliment and adopt it into 00:25:35.835 --> 00:25:41.385 my view of myself, make it my identity, people like how I think, well, then maybe 00:25:41.385 --> 00:25:43.175 that means my job is to think out loud. 00:25:44.844 --> 00:25:44.965 Oh, 00:25:44.965 --> 00:25:45.245 Paula Engebretson: I love 00:25:45.245 --> 00:25:45.475 Mark Butler: that. 00:25:45.675 --> 00:25:52.415 And once I got there, uh, it became much easier to, for example, jump back into 00:25:52.415 --> 00:25:56.984 this podcast and record something like 25 episodes since I took a long break. 00:25:56.994 --> 00:25:57.664 That sort of thing. 00:25:58.084 --> 00:25:58.274 Mm hmm. 00:25:58.284 --> 00:26:00.965 Where I struggle now is I, I fall back into apathy. 00:26:02.314 --> 00:26:06.225 And by apathy, it doesn't, I don't mean I don't care about the people. 00:26:06.604 --> 00:26:08.794 It means I don't think that what I'm saying matters. 00:26:09.225 --> 00:26:09.554 Yeah. 00:26:10.055 --> 00:26:13.055 That no one is worse off if I don't talk into this microphone. 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:15.130 But why would I do it? 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:17.910 Because I could be writing software right now and that would be 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:20.530 really pumping me with dopamine. 00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:26.330 But then I do, I'll hear from people and they'll say, Oh, that one episode 00:26:26.330 --> 00:26:28.880 or that one thing you've said. 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.949 And then I think, Oh, okay, I better talk into the microphone then because it 00:26:31.950 --> 00:26:33.849 seems to be helpful to at least somebody. 00:26:34.529 --> 00:26:36.050 Paula Engebretson: And do you capture those anywhere? 00:26:38.004 --> 00:26:38.365 Mark Butler: No. 00:26:38.395 --> 00:26:39.024 Heavens no. 00:26:39.105 --> 00:26:39.615 How? 00:26:39.615 --> 00:26:40.595 I mean, I don't. 00:26:42.215 --> 00:26:42.644 Like, even 00:26:42.644 --> 00:26:46.235 Paula Engebretson: a, have, have someone on your team, anything positive, 00:26:46.245 --> 00:26:47.864 feedback, throw it in a folder. 00:26:49.715 --> 00:26:55.074 Mark Butler: Well, uh, I mean, I don't have a team, so I would, 00:26:56.314 --> 00:26:57.844 I mean, I could text myself. 00:26:57.905 --> 00:26:59.084 I could text myself. 00:26:59.115 --> 00:27:02.614 That's probably been my most reliable form of capture ever, 00:27:02.644 --> 00:27:02.664 Paula Engebretson: is 00:27:03.544 --> 00:27:04.804 Mark Butler: I just send myself a text. 00:27:05.225 --> 00:27:05.675 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:27:07.875 --> 00:27:10.825 Mark Butler: I've never done it with, uh, uh, somebody, you know, thanking me 00:27:10.825 --> 00:27:12.095 for the podcast or anything like that. 00:27:12.095 --> 00:27:12.205 Yeah. 00:27:12.205 --> 00:27:12.224 Yeah. 00:27:12.685 --> 00:27:17.485 Paula Engebretson: Yeah, I remember when I was, I, so when I was still 00:27:17.485 --> 00:27:21.505 a professor, and again, I did, was not having a great time there. 00:27:21.715 --> 00:27:24.135 And so I was blogging as just like an outlet. 00:27:24.425 --> 00:27:30.375 And I remember hearing somebody say that they created just this folder of 00:27:30.514 --> 00:27:35.665 compliments for whenever they get crappy feedback of like, okay, there it is. 00:27:35.705 --> 00:27:39.415 But let me go read this supportive stuff as well. 00:27:39.725 --> 00:27:47.075 Um, And if we can remember to save it, capture it. 00:27:48.135 --> 00:27:48.565 Yeah. 00:27:48.895 --> 00:27:49.275 Mark Butler: Yeah. 00:27:50.185 --> 00:27:51.085 It's very helpful though. 00:27:52.465 --> 00:27:55.395 Of course, me being the way I am now, I'm going to go write software. 00:27:56.675 --> 00:27:57.395 I'll, I'll. 00:27:58.135 --> 00:28:01.875 Leave everything that it matters for like three weeks and I'll go write software. 00:28:02.534 --> 00:28:07.845 That's a compliment reminder system And then I'll never look at it again 00:28:10.654 --> 00:28:14.584 That's really also thinking I'm sorry go ahead I was gonna say it's helpful 00:28:14.585 --> 00:28:18.635 because if I were to Text myself if somebody says night something nice to 00:28:18.635 --> 00:28:22.995 me if I were to text myself Then there would just be a text feed on my phone. 00:28:22.995 --> 00:28:23.955 I could just scroll through it. 00:28:24.145 --> 00:28:27.014 That would be that's low friction Very low for 00:28:27.014 --> 00:28:27.595 Paula Engebretson: yeah. 00:28:27.825 --> 00:28:30.305 Yeah You Yes, 00:28:33.785 --> 00:28:37.955 I'm thinking too for, you know, consistent creation, whatever, 00:28:38.685 --> 00:28:43.375 I think there's an importance in deciding what consistency means. 00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:44.720 Yeah. 00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:45.560 For the person. 00:28:45.780 --> 00:28:46.070 Right? 00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:47.170 Does it mean every week? 00:28:47.180 --> 00:28:50.570 Does it mean posting every day? 00:28:50.600 --> 00:28:54.290 Does it mean, like, I love the guideline of I don't skip more 00:28:54.290 --> 00:28:56.379 than one day or more than one week. 00:28:56.590 --> 00:29:00.579 Like, so it gives me the, the flexibility of, okay, we missed it. 00:29:00.600 --> 00:29:01.089 It's fine. 00:29:01.260 --> 00:29:02.629 We just don't skip more than one. 00:29:03.535 --> 00:29:04.045 In a row. 00:29:06.945 --> 00:29:08.505 Mark Butler: Yes, I've heard that. 00:29:10.335 --> 00:29:12.955 I'm weirdly willing to skip more than one in a row. 00:29:14.245 --> 00:29:14.835 That's it. 00:29:14.835 --> 00:29:15.015 Maybe you 00:29:15.015 --> 00:29:16.015 Paula Engebretson: extend the container. 00:29:18.055 --> 00:29:20.805 Mark Butler: Uh, I've, one time I was talking to a group of coaches and they 00:29:20.805 --> 00:29:22.225 were saying, what about consistency? 00:29:22.225 --> 00:29:25.225 And I said, well, I get to define consistency and for me, consistency 00:29:25.225 --> 00:29:26.925 might mean three episodes in a year. 00:29:29.244 --> 00:29:31.545 At the time it felt like I was lying to myself though. 00:29:31.924 --> 00:29:34.705 It didn't, that didn't feel like an internal truth. 00:29:34.725 --> 00:29:36.355 It felt like a justification. 00:29:36.785 --> 00:29:38.135 Like a rationalization. 00:29:38.865 --> 00:29:46.285 Um, so I think that for me, consistency might not mean weekly 00:29:49.395 --> 00:29:54.885 probably doesn't mean I get, just get to show up when I feel like it, that feels. 00:29:55.465 --> 00:29:57.125 Self, self deceptive too. 00:29:59.615 --> 00:30:02.465 Paula Engebretson: I do think it's interesting how you mentioned, though, 00:30:02.755 --> 00:30:06.905 you have your, you have waves, like, is there a way, and this is for everybody 00:30:06.905 --> 00:30:11.035 too, like, is there a way to ride that wave where if you have ideas 00:30:11.035 --> 00:30:16.242 and you're in flow, can you record a handful of episodes so they're in 00:30:16.242 --> 00:30:18.215 the, you know, in the can or whatever? 00:30:19.705 --> 00:30:20.345 Mark Butler: Yes. 00:30:20.615 --> 00:30:24.955 And that is something that my own coach, Liz, has encouraged me to do because we've 00:30:24.955 --> 00:30:26.495 talked a lot about the wave metaphor. 00:30:27.350 --> 00:30:29.850 And she said, you probably, she said, you could, you could create 00:30:29.860 --> 00:30:34.230 52 newsletters in a year, but you might create 20 of them in a day. 00:30:35.140 --> 00:30:35.530 Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm. 00:30:35.870 --> 00:30:37.720 Mark Butler: Uh, and that resonated with me. 00:30:39.750 --> 00:30:44.080 I, then you have to have a system for taking those 20 and making 00:30:44.080 --> 00:30:45.850 sure they get to the world. 00:30:47.370 --> 00:30:51.420 Because I'm one that would be very prone to having a hundred newsletters 00:30:51.810 --> 00:30:54.540 in a folder that never get published. 00:30:56.915 --> 00:30:59.315 I have a bunch of videos right now actually in a folder that 00:30:59.325 --> 00:31:01.095 will likely never be published. 00:31:05.385 --> 00:31:06.165 That's solvable. 00:31:06.175 --> 00:31:09.025 I realize that's, that's, that's solvable. 00:31:10.745 --> 00:31:12.945 Paula Engebretson: And what's the, like, cause they are the, again, 00:31:12.945 --> 00:31:14.215 I'm like, what's the friction? 00:31:14.555 --> 00:31:20.915 Is it, is it a decision of like what am I going to do with these videos? 00:31:21.125 --> 00:31:22.105 What's the point of them? 00:31:22.105 --> 00:31:25.155 I need to make a decision or is it the friction of now I have to go 00:31:25.155 --> 00:31:30.295 into the scheduler and do the stupid, tedious stuff of like, when is it 00:31:30.295 --> 00:31:31.985 going to go out and dah, dah, dah, dah. 00:31:32.145 --> 00:31:33.095 What's the friction? 00:31:33.555 --> 00:31:34.755 Mark Butler: That's tons of friction. 00:31:35.645 --> 00:31:39.335 I don't know how many, just a few times I've signed up for like social 00:31:39.335 --> 00:31:42.205 media, scheduling, something software. 00:31:43.455 --> 00:31:46.355 And then I do the trial and then I usually pay for it for one or two 00:31:46.355 --> 00:31:49.495 months and then finally admit to myself, I'm never going to do this. 00:31:49.505 --> 00:31:50.455 And then I canceled it again. 00:31:52.385 --> 00:31:57.375 So what, uh, my wife and I've talked a lot about this cause she feels frustrated when 00:31:57.375 --> 00:32:00.995 she, she's like, you have things to say, they help people, but you won't do it. 00:32:02.295 --> 00:32:04.215 And I'm like, well, I would do it. 00:32:04.755 --> 00:32:06.625 She said, well, how do I help? 00:32:07.885 --> 00:32:11.995 And I said, well, if I could just Record if I could push record and 00:32:11.995 --> 00:32:17.855 then push stop and then never and then that's all I do then it could happen 00:32:18.295 --> 00:32:18.675 Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm, 00:32:19.565 --> 00:32:20.115 Mark Butler: and she said, okay. 00:32:20.115 --> 00:32:21.255 Well, then what would I need to do? 00:32:21.255 --> 00:32:23.035 And I said, well I guess you'd have to go find the recordings 00:32:23.035 --> 00:32:27.625 and publish them wherever they're gonna be published and she's agreed 00:32:27.625 --> 00:32:29.135 to it And then I just drop it. 00:32:29.565 --> 00:32:30.975 I don't ever go back to it. 00:32:32.325 --> 00:32:35.265 I think what this reveals Uh paula because what you're telling 00:32:35.265 --> 00:32:36.625 me is so helpful and useful. 00:32:36.865 --> 00:32:43.635 I think I have I think I have um, Persistent mental and emotional 00:32:43.645 --> 00:32:48.635 stuff around publishing that that is probably more of the friction 00:32:48.635 --> 00:32:49.855 than the procedural friction 00:32:52.065 --> 00:32:55.055 The procedural friction is so solvable because either I can write software 00:32:55.055 --> 00:32:59.545 that solves it which I love to do Or my wife is willing to if I show her a 00:32:59.545 --> 00:33:02.215 google drive folder She'll take that and publish it wherever I need it to 00:33:02.215 --> 00:33:06.200 be published I think I have deeper resistance to publishing, period, now 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.890 that we're talking about it, now that you're giving me this great coaching. 00:33:09.340 --> 00:33:09.630 Paula Engebretson: Right. 00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:11.280 Like, is it actually a full body yes? 00:33:12.070 --> 00:33:12.590 Mark Butler: It's not. 00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:14.670 Paula Engebretson: It never has been. 00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:16.420 That's where it is, then. 00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:21.280 Mark Butler: When you said this earlier, it resonated instantly. 00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:22.080 It's a should. 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:27.030 It's a should that sometimes turns into a yes when I feel like someone 00:33:27.030 --> 00:33:32.110 has benefited, but that actually might just mean it's a stronger should. 00:33:35.185 --> 00:33:39.825 Cause if someone says, Oh, your episode about X really helped me out. 00:33:40.095 --> 00:33:44.825 I had someone email me a couple of months ago and say, your 00:33:44.995 --> 00:33:51.535 episode about the urge to create a course saved me 3, 000 that day. 00:33:53.235 --> 00:33:54.225 And she told me the story. 00:33:54.815 --> 00:33:55.165 Wow. 00:33:56.205 --> 00:33:57.015 Feels amazing. 00:33:57.325 --> 00:33:57.945 Doesn't happen. 00:33:57.975 --> 00:33:59.055 You know, that doesn't happen often. 00:33:59.055 --> 00:34:00.885 We're talking like small handfuls of times. 00:34:00.885 --> 00:34:03.775 These things happen over a lifetime, but it's not like I have people kicking down 00:34:03.775 --> 00:34:05.105 my door and telling me I'm wonderful. 00:34:06.090 --> 00:34:10.240 It happens every once in a while, but I think even in those moments, what 00:34:10.240 --> 00:34:13.660 it does for me is it makes me think it just makes the should stronger 00:34:18.310 --> 00:34:18.660 because 00:34:21.650 --> 00:34:25.260 don't add it as a baseline. 00:34:25.770 --> 00:34:29.220 I'm not excited to publish stuff. 00:34:31.330 --> 00:34:33.600 It's not what I'm falling asleep at night thinking about. 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:35.730 It's not what I'm waking up in the morning thinking about. 00:34:35.750 --> 00:34:38.730 And for me, I promote that as a big signal. 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:42.390 You have 00:34:42.390 --> 00:34:42.690 Paula Engebretson: that. 00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:43.700 Mark Butler: You do have 00:34:43.710 --> 00:34:43.760 Paula Engebretson: that. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:44.060 Yeah. 00:34:44.220 --> 00:34:46.560 Like that is what I'm, I'm always problem solving that. 00:34:46.570 --> 00:34:48.050 Like, how can I teach this? 00:34:48.120 --> 00:34:49.180 How can I share this? 00:34:49.230 --> 00:34:51.860 Ooh, that would be a really interesting analogy. 00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:53.550 How can I bring that in? 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.315 Like I was literally watching Mary Poppins the other day and I was like, That line 00:34:58.325 --> 00:35:01.895 needs to be a podcast episode and then it was like, I'm literally talking about 00:35:01.895 --> 00:35:03.215 Mary Poppins in one of my episodes. 00:35:03.995 --> 00:35:04.335 What? 00:35:06.165 --> 00:35:07.245 Mark Butler: Yeah, but your stuff is good. 00:35:07.265 --> 00:35:08.385 It comes through. 00:35:08.985 --> 00:35:13.395 I haven't listened to your podcast, but I read a high percentage of your emails. 00:35:14.375 --> 00:35:16.395 It comes through very clearly. 00:35:17.065 --> 00:35:21.145 Your enthusiasm for your work is so obvious. 00:35:23.580 --> 00:35:24.280 So that's awesome. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:27.630 I'm not sure what to do with this realization. 00:35:29.080 --> 00:35:32.120 Paula Engebretson: I was thinking, again, I mean, if it's just, if 00:35:32.120 --> 00:35:36.870 it's a should, that's something to, to sit with and notice, right. 00:35:36.870 --> 00:35:40.710 And just to like, let that be for, to see what else arises. 00:35:41.300 --> 00:35:46.950 But I was also thinking about in terms of the format, like maybe 00:35:46.950 --> 00:35:48.450 you do better with responding. 00:35:48.450 --> 00:35:51.060 If people sending questions, is it easier for you to hop on 00:35:51.060 --> 00:35:52.210 and just speak to the question? 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:52.890 Mark Butler: Definitely. 00:35:53.350 --> 00:35:54.120 Paula Engebretson: You know, like. 00:35:54.240 --> 00:35:54.570 Yes. 00:35:54.720 --> 00:35:56.070 Everybody just send in their questions. 00:35:56.550 --> 00:35:57.370 What do you think about this? 00:35:57.410 --> 00:35:59.930 And you're like, Let me tell you in 15 minutes. 00:35:59.930 --> 00:36:00.380 Here we go. 00:36:00.790 --> 00:36:01.310 Absolutely. 00:36:01.310 --> 00:36:01.660 Yes. 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:04.300 Mark Butler: Much, much easier. 00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:05.110 So easy. 00:36:05.670 --> 00:36:08.190 But I tell myself a story that those are questionably useful. 00:36:09.950 --> 00:36:10.410 Really? 00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:10.940 I do. 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:11.310 I know. 00:36:11.310 --> 00:36:17.760 And I know that we'll find evidence that I'm wrong, but I can also 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:18.830 find evidence that I'm right. 00:36:19.620 --> 00:36:23.440 Uh, it's actually, I said this, I do this office hours thing where people can just 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:26.780 show up and do exactly what you just said, it's free and people show up and we chat. 00:36:27.560 --> 00:36:30.850 And I told the people there that that experience for me is simultaneously 00:36:31.110 --> 00:36:32.650 pretty exhilarating and I enjoy it a lot. 00:36:33.090 --> 00:36:39.620 But the rest of those days that I do those sessions, my anxiety is way elevated in 00:36:39.620 --> 00:36:45.310 large part because I don't remember what I said and I don't remember if it was. 00:36:45.850 --> 00:36:50.380 Like the three things, uh, my friend, Jody Moore gave me this a long time ago. 00:36:50.420 --> 00:36:52.560 She, she recommended a book to me and this was in the book. 00:36:53.490 --> 00:36:56.410 When we talk to ourselves, we always want to be saying, you know, is it true? 00:36:56.410 --> 00:36:57.020 Is it kind? 00:36:57.020 --> 00:36:57.880 And is it useful? 00:36:59.040 --> 00:37:03.840 Which I think is a brilliant filter that I don't, I find that when I do these 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:08.600 live Q and a sessions, I can't look back later in the day and easily know 00:37:08.610 --> 00:37:10.430 whether it was true, kind, or useful. 00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:15.330 And I, and I get really, uh, dysregulated around it. 00:37:15.420 --> 00:37:19.830 So it's super easy in the moment and then like stressful for the rest of the day. 00:37:20.450 --> 00:37:21.250 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:37:22.650 --> 00:37:23.790 Through an ADHD lens. 00:37:23.790 --> 00:37:26.870 I'm like, Oh, that's a bunch of rejection sensitivity coming up right there. 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:26.970 What's 00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:27.310 Mark Butler: that? 00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:27.830 What's that? 00:37:28.120 --> 00:37:28.210 Paula Engebretson: I 00:37:28.210 --> 00:37:28.800 Mark Butler: don't know about that. 00:37:29.010 --> 00:37:32.380 Paula Engebretson: So some people talk about it as rejection sensitive dysphoria, 00:37:33.010 --> 00:37:38.515 other people rejection sensitivity, but it's just, uh, it's, under the executive 00:37:38.515 --> 00:37:44.655 function of emotional regulation, but it's this intense experience that a lot 00:37:44.655 --> 00:37:52.325 of ADHDers have of rejection, perceived rejection, potential rejection, we 00:37:52.325 --> 00:37:56.755 reject ourselves instead, it's so strong that it'll keep us from publishing, 00:37:56.955 --> 00:38:02.015 it'll keep us from even reaching out to somebody to like make a connection. 00:38:02.755 --> 00:38:06.865 If you send a text, like there will be times where I'll send a 00:38:06.865 --> 00:38:09.195 text and someone will respond back. 00:38:09.275 --> 00:38:11.675 And if I'm not managing my mind, I'll be like, they didn't have 00:38:11.675 --> 00:38:12.955 their normal amount of emojis. 00:38:12.975 --> 00:38:13.875 What did I do wrong? 00:38:14.325 --> 00:38:14.795 You know? 00:38:14.795 --> 00:38:17.925 And it's like, clearly I said something wrong. 00:38:18.125 --> 00:38:19.585 There weren't three hearts after it. 00:38:19.955 --> 00:38:24.855 Um, it's just that you can be really intense and kind of put this filter over. 00:38:24.955 --> 00:38:24.975 Yeah. 00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:27.050 Whatever it is you're doing. 00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:29.960 And I see it come up with a lot of people who are in the coaching 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:34.300 or content creation space, because there's such an intense experience of. 00:38:34.870 --> 00:38:40.300 Potential rejection perceived rejection that kind of thing that resonates. 00:38:40.600 --> 00:38:45.410 Mark Butler: I I don't uh, I don't 00:38:48.250 --> 00:38:54.300 I don't tend to worry that people won't like me or that But the way you're 00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:57.410 describing that experience and the way I feel on the days where I do these 00:38:57.410 --> 00:39:02.490 live q a's That there seems to be some overlap There my honestly my biggest 00:39:02.490 --> 00:39:07.740 concern when I do those is was I nice because I worry a lot that like I was rude 00:39:08.660 --> 00:39:09.310 Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:15.090 Mark Butler: and or that I was dismissive or that I was Anyway, that may be neither 00:39:15.090 --> 00:39:19.280 here nor there, but yes, it is the easiest way for me to produce content. 00:39:19.290 --> 00:39:22.150 If I had an appointment where people just showed up and asked questions and then 00:39:22.150 --> 00:39:25.020 someone took the recording of that and they just made it exist in the world, 00:39:25.650 --> 00:39:27.470 content would be frictionless for me. 00:39:28.600 --> 00:39:30.130 It would be essentially zero cost. 00:39:30.310 --> 00:39:32.800 Well, if I could manage the emotions after the fact, it would be zero cost. 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:34.820 Paula Engebretson: I was like, that would be the thing then, 00:39:34.830 --> 00:39:38.510 like if you wanted to do the work around the mind management after 00:39:40.560 --> 00:39:45.090 that could be a streamlined approach to consistent content 00:39:45.500 --> 00:39:46.850 creation, at least in this space. 00:39:46.850 --> 00:39:46.910 Thank you. 00:39:47.870 --> 00:39:51.260 Mark Butler: What have that's so helpful as we, as we wind down, I'm curious, 00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:57.850 what would you call the fruits of your consistency in your, in your publishing 00:39:57.860 --> 00:39:59.170 over the years that you've been doing it? 00:40:01.510 --> 00:40:01.910 Paula Engebretson: So 00:40:04.370 --> 00:40:09.905 I think for my, for myself, when I first started out, It was kind of 00:40:09.915 --> 00:40:13.265 fruits just for myself, because with a podcast, I don't know, it's a slow burn. 00:40:13.865 --> 00:40:16.585 Usually you're not creating a lot of clients right away. 00:40:17.095 --> 00:40:24.675 But I learned so much about myself, about ADHD, about all of these different areas. 00:40:24.685 --> 00:40:26.635 Like there was so much growth for myself. 00:40:26.810 --> 00:40:30.700 Because again, I think when you teach, you learn things at a deeper level as well. 00:40:30.730 --> 00:40:33.200 And I'm always thinking about teaching in the podcast. 00:40:33.200 --> 00:40:35.550 So that's like a huge component. 00:40:35.890 --> 00:40:42.950 Um, but once I actually started building up more of an audience, it's, it's such 00:40:42.950 --> 00:40:47.110 a rewarding experience to be able to share something and to know that it's 00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:48.840 an accessible thing that's out there. 00:40:49.240 --> 00:40:52.940 I genuinely think anyone who has ADHD needs these supports. 00:40:52.940 --> 00:40:54.890 So it's just a really fulfilling. 00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:58.660 Experience to be able to put this stuff out there. 00:40:59.030 --> 00:41:00.880 Mark Butler: So it's meaning and yeah, it's 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:01.910 Paula Engebretson: yeah, there's meaning in it 00:41:04.210 --> 00:41:04.760 Mark Butler: That's amazing. 00:41:06.680 --> 00:41:07.290 That's amazing. 00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:08.450 And I can see again. 00:41:08.660 --> 00:41:12.440 I'm your bookkeeper So I I I can interact with you and know that you're 00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:15.810 deriving a lot of good meaning and and richness from it And also I know 00:41:15.810 --> 00:41:17.980 that the business is doing great. 00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:23.990 Um, What else would you want to say in conclusion to to anybody in the audience 00:41:23.990 --> 00:41:26.550 who might resonate with adhd tendencies? 00:41:30.020 --> 00:41:31.230 Paula Engebretson: I think I would say 00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:39.360 If it feels off You If it, you're just, if you just keep forcing yourself 00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:42.170 and you're like, it shouldn't be this hard, you're probably right. 00:41:42.730 --> 00:41:45.400 And there might be a different way to work with it. 00:41:46.100 --> 00:41:49.680 And you might be trying to kind of force yourself into the shoulds. 00:41:50.105 --> 00:41:53.935 Of, well, this is how I was taught and this is how they teach it in this 00:41:54.205 --> 00:41:59.285 funnel thing or whatever you, you know, like, it's just very possible that your 00:41:59.285 --> 00:42:03.595 brain just needs a different type of scaffolding, a different type of support. 00:42:03.875 --> 00:42:05.195 So it can feel easier. 00:42:07.425 --> 00:42:07.585 Mark Butler: That's 00:42:07.585 --> 00:42:08.255 Paula Engebretson: fantastic. 00:42:09.335 --> 00:42:11.379 Mark Butler: Where should I send people to find you? 00:42:12.650 --> 00:42:16.450 Paula Engebretson: Yeah, they can, uh, head to imbusybeingawesome. 00:42:16.490 --> 00:42:20.250 com my, uh, what podcast is called I'm busy being awesome. 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:22.430 Um, so fantastic. 00:42:22.720 --> 00:42:23.020 I love 00:42:23.020 --> 00:42:23.510 Mark Butler: that name. 00:42:24.270 --> 00:42:26.980 Your program is called we're busy being awesome, right? 00:42:27.100 --> 00:42:27.480 Paula Engebretson: Yeah. 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:29.300 So the group is we're busy being awesome. 00:42:30.740 --> 00:42:31.210 Company. 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:32.170 I'm busy being awesome. 00:42:32.330 --> 00:42:32.590 Yeah. 00:42:33.460 --> 00:42:33.830 Awesome. 00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:36.510 Mark Butler: I'm so grateful that you'd come here and do this. 00:42:37.040 --> 00:42:39.260 Uh, I'm excited to send people your way. 00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:40.631 And unless 00:42:40.631 --> 00:42:41.313 Paula Engebretson: you have 00:42:41.313 --> 00:42:44.380 Mark Butler: a problem with it, this will be live probably in about 00:42:44.380 --> 00:42:46.090 an hour, because that's how I am. 00:42:46.660 --> 00:42:47.160 Paula Engebretson: I love it. 00:42:47.270 --> 00:42:47.960 Fantastic. 00:42:48.370 --> 00:42:51.860 Mark Butler: So I'll get you linked up in the notes and we'll 00:42:51.860 --> 00:42:52.730 send you a couple of people. 00:42:53.350 --> 00:42:53.740 Paula Engebretson: Awesome. 00:42:54.040 --> 00:42:55.070 Thanks so much for having me. 00:42:55.340 --> 00:42:56.020 Mark Butler: Thank you, Paula. 00:42:56.020 --> 00:43:00.200 Thanks everybody for listening and yeah, this podcast will 00:43:00.210 --> 00:43:02.060 probably be back next week, but. 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.070 You know, who could say really? 00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:07.050 All right, folks. 00:43:07.050 --> 00:43:07.600 Have a good one. 00:43:07.990 --> 00:43:08.340 See you, Paula.