1 00:00:01,810 --> 00:00:10,700 Welcome to Oxford+, the podcast series that takes you deep into the myths and 2 00:00:10,700 --> 00:00:13,140 truths of the Oxford investing landscape. 3 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,270 I'm your host, Susannah de Jager and I've spent over 15 4 00:00:16,270 --> 00:00:17,890 years in UK asset management. 5 00:00:18,515 --> 00:00:20,105 My guest today is Ed Bussey. 6 00:00:20,295 --> 00:00:23,715 Ed studied natural sciences at Cambridge University before starting 7 00:00:23,715 --> 00:00:27,365 his career serving in counter terrorism operations with the UK military 8 00:00:27,814 --> 00:00:30,164 and national security agencies. 9 00:00:30,325 --> 00:00:35,695 Ed recently took on the role as CEO of OSE, Oxford Science Enterprises, which 10 00:00:35,695 --> 00:00:37,425 was originally Oxford Science Innovation. 11 00:00:39,235 --> 00:00:44,085 As mentioned in my last interview with the OSI founder Dave Norwood, OSE is 12 00:00:44,085 --> 00:00:47,864 the largest university venture fund globally and has brought in over 1. 13 00:00:47,865 --> 00:00:52,364 5 billion of capital to Oxford since its inception in 2015. 14 00:00:53,354 --> 00:00:55,025 Ed is a serial entrepreneur and leading UK technology expert having 15 00:00:55,025 --> 00:00:56,089 launched, scaled and successfully exited three venture-backed 16 00:00:56,089 --> 00:00:56,544 disruptive technology businesses. 17 00:01:01,104 --> 00:01:06,225 I'm really pleased to have Ed here today, as one of the main messages 18 00:01:06,225 --> 00:01:10,034 of Oxford+ is to dispel myths and expose truths around Oxford. 19 00:01:10,554 --> 00:01:15,104 OSE is a huge part of the ecosystem and is often the subject of many of these. 20 00:01:15,445 --> 00:01:19,195 Ed's views and plans on how to disprove, overcome or dispel some 21 00:01:19,195 --> 00:01:22,765 of these will be exceptionally informative for anyone who has or 22 00:01:22,795 --> 00:01:24,495 thinks they should invest into Oxford. 23 00:01:25,450 --> 00:01:27,790 So, Ed, thank you so much for joining today. 24 00:01:27,910 --> 00:01:29,160 My pleasure, it's great to be here. 25 00:01:29,510 --> 00:01:30,170 Wonderful. 26 00:01:30,820 --> 00:01:32,290 So, how is it going? 27 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:33,220 Five months in. 28 00:01:33,355 --> 00:01:36,425 It's the best job in the world, honestly, really. 29 00:01:36,805 --> 00:01:44,304 It's almost as if I had to design the ideal role for me, it's the culmination 30 00:01:44,304 --> 00:01:46,774 of everything I've done along my journey. 31 00:01:46,775 --> 00:01:49,794 I studied science, dare I say, at Cambridge rather than Oxford, but that 32 00:01:49,794 --> 00:01:54,880 gives me a, but yeah, but that does mean when I say Oxford is the number 33 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,750 one research university in the world, I'm saying that very objectively based 34 00:01:58,799 --> 00:02:01,510 off the fact that that's the case. 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,670 The period I spent in government is also proving to be very relevant 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,800 and the last two decades, I've spent building disruptive technology 37 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,920 companies from the ground up through to exit and fundamentally what OSE is 38 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:21,390 doing, beyond investing, is building sort of world changing businesses. 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,749 So to bring this all together in a leadership role is just perfect for me. 40 00:02:25,749 --> 00:02:29,660 I'm not pretending it's without its challenges, but I actually think this 41 00:02:29,660 --> 00:02:34,820 job is a real privilege, if I look at what we're doing and with the sorts 42 00:02:34,820 --> 00:02:38,309 of companies and the sort of impact that they're going to have and are 43 00:02:38,309 --> 00:02:41,180 having, is quite humbling actually. 44 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:43,620 I'm very pleased to hear that, that's wonderful. 45 00:02:44,070 --> 00:02:49,420 I've heard it said that in the UK there's a sort of criticism of venture capital, 46 00:02:49,459 --> 00:02:53,390 of which this is a particular kind of venture building out of universities, 47 00:02:53,859 --> 00:02:57,169 that it's often intermediated by financiers and accountants and 48 00:02:57,279 --> 00:03:00,479 that's a kind of complaint about the fact that it's not entrepreneurs. 49 00:03:00,769 --> 00:03:03,740 So you obviously do have, as you just referenced, a very 50 00:03:03,769 --> 00:03:05,060 entrepreneurial background. 51 00:03:05,390 --> 00:03:09,765 How do you think that's different in the way that you're approaching the new role? 52 00:03:10,485 --> 00:03:16,404 Yeah, so I'm lucky that on the same time I joined, I was joined 53 00:03:16,435 --> 00:03:21,005 by Jack Edmondson who's come in as our Chief Investment Officer and 54 00:03:21,144 --> 00:03:22,305 two parts really to the answer. 55 00:03:22,315 --> 00:03:25,094 One is, how do I see things differently? 56 00:03:25,475 --> 00:03:26,954 I guess first off, I am a founder. 57 00:03:27,355 --> 00:03:30,894 I've been through that journey and I know how painful it is, I've run out 58 00:03:30,945 --> 00:03:37,425 of money, I have had very difficult conversations with my investors, I have 59 00:03:37,465 --> 00:03:42,794 slept in the office, I have had sleepless nights, had to sacrifice all that goes 60 00:03:42,814 --> 00:03:46,714 with building a business, whether that's with family and friends and so on. 61 00:03:47,044 --> 00:03:53,144 So I come at this with a very natural empathy for what the founders of our 62 00:03:53,144 --> 00:03:58,065 businesses are going through and I think that's a really healthy perspective 63 00:03:58,065 --> 00:04:02,825 to have, because whether we agree with everything that our founders say, I know 64 00:04:02,875 --> 00:04:06,554 that at the end of the day, these are the people that need the most support and help 65 00:04:07,084 --> 00:04:09,415 and so that for me is front and center. 66 00:04:09,454 --> 00:04:12,975 So I'm really enjoying going out and getting time with the portfolio companies, 67 00:04:12,975 --> 00:04:16,125 the founders, and so on, we're doing site visits, Jack and I, you know, we'll 68 00:04:16,125 --> 00:04:19,245 be, we'll work our way through the whole portfolio, we're about 40 percent through 69 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:23,810 the core portfolio already, so I think that perspective is a really helpful one. 70 00:04:23,810 --> 00:04:25,100 You're like a peer, aren't you really? 71 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:26,430 Yeah, I can speak to them as a peer. 72 00:04:27,090 --> 00:04:31,500 I can really relate to the decisions around, you know, the hard decisions 73 00:04:31,505 --> 00:04:35,010 and tradeoffs you're making maybe on a funding round and you take money from 74 00:04:35,010 --> 00:04:38,970 this investor or that investor and the things to watch out for the challenge in 75 00:04:38,970 --> 00:04:44,295 the UK, the pressure to sell early, and you know, I've been there and I know the 76 00:04:44,295 --> 00:04:47,795 conversations that I'd like to have had with my investors, but frankly never did. 77 00:04:48,105 --> 00:04:53,005 So I can then start to maybe be a more helpful, empathetic sounding 78 00:04:53,005 --> 00:04:54,655 board from the investor side. 79 00:04:54,655 --> 00:04:55,834 So I think that's important. 80 00:04:56,425 --> 00:05:00,750 The second part of the answer is with Jack, as I say, joining alongside me as 81 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:06,505 CIO and OSE having split the role into two parts, frankly I am not clear how 82 00:05:06,525 --> 00:05:10,515 it could have been done properly as a merged role historically, because they're 83 00:05:10,515 --> 00:05:12,325 two completely different skill sets. 84 00:05:12,885 --> 00:05:19,434 So my role as CEO at OSE is to design a strategy and execute that strategy 85 00:05:19,475 --> 00:05:21,164 with a focus on how do we do that? 86 00:05:21,174 --> 00:05:24,114 How do we build and scale the organization efficiently? 87 00:05:24,114 --> 00:05:29,695 And what I've done all the way through my journey is work through in different 88 00:05:29,695 --> 00:05:35,555 sectors, how do you efficiently scale organizations and deliver results? 89 00:05:36,095 --> 00:05:42,514 And Jack's focus alongside me is on making very high quality investment decisions 90 00:05:42,525 --> 00:05:47,525 and running a very robust investment process, but that is a skill set that, 91 00:05:47,534 --> 00:05:53,435 you know, he has clear expertise and experience of, I have received that 92 00:05:53,435 --> 00:05:58,275 money, but my focus is on how do we organise OSE efficiently to scale? 93 00:05:58,294 --> 00:06:01,014 Because I want to really challenge all of our stakeholders, our 94 00:06:01,015 --> 00:06:05,385 investors, our team to be much more ambitious around what we could do. 95 00:06:05,525 --> 00:06:08,555 But to do that means we need to scale the organisation far more 96 00:06:08,555 --> 00:06:13,700 efficiently and so that's where my experience comes in alongside 97 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:15,630 and very complementary to Jack's. 98 00:06:15,700 --> 00:06:17,789 That's really clear and actually, as you describe it, 99 00:06:18,039 --> 00:06:19,080 I'm inclined to agree with you. 100 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,020 It's hard to envisage that somebody could focus on the day job. 101 00:06:22,090 --> 00:06:24,759 You said yourselves, you've only got 40 percent of the way through the 102 00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:29,359 portfolio, you've both been in situ for five months, I think it is now, 103 00:06:30,030 --> 00:06:32,830 you know, it's a big portfolio, it's a lot of work and so the idea you 104 00:06:32,830 --> 00:06:36,669 could do that and build a strategy and scale, it sounds like a really 105 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:38,419 good call that they've been split out. 106 00:06:39,049 --> 00:06:45,250 So in terms of building and scaling, why is that such a large objective of yours? 107 00:06:45,250 --> 00:06:46,620 How have you come to that conclusion? 108 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,380 And what are the benefits both for your stakeholders, but also presumably 109 00:06:50,380 --> 00:06:52,240 for the university for that to happen? 110 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:57,150 Yeah, so if I go back to the beginning and in fact, this came out of my own 111 00:06:57,270 --> 00:07:01,470 due diligence on OSE before coming in and I've come into this with my 112 00:07:01,470 --> 00:07:05,190 eyes wide open, as did Jack and we had a lot of conversations over the 113 00:07:05,190 --> 00:07:07,120 summer before we started in September. 114 00:07:07,810 --> 00:07:13,640 What's clear is we are not touching the sides of the container in terms of the 115 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:19,280 scale of the opportunity and for all sorts of reasons the organisation has been, and 116 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,819 I'm not saying this as a criticism, it's necessarily been a bit inward looking the 117 00:07:22,819 --> 00:07:27,460 last few years, but from conversations we've both had and certainly I've had 118 00:07:27,460 --> 00:07:31,800 across the university and in departments and within academics, there are a 119 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,920 whole number of spin out opportunities that we haven't even looked at. 120 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:39,590 It's not a numbers game, without compromising the quality of what we're 121 00:07:39,590 --> 00:07:44,840 trying to do, we could be doing a lot more and to do a lot more, we need 122 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,739 to be really clear about how we work. 123 00:07:46,740 --> 00:07:50,110 So one of the things that folks on very early on, is to define what I call 124 00:07:50,110 --> 00:07:51,919 our operating model, how do we work? 125 00:07:52,530 --> 00:07:55,740 And to then think about that operating model and all the different 126 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:57,560 stages and how do we do each one? 127 00:07:57,719 --> 00:08:01,440 How do we address each of those stages in a much more scalable way? 128 00:08:01,869 --> 00:08:06,139 Because I think there are many aspects of what OSE is doing to level of 129 00:08:06,189 --> 00:08:11,629 excellence, but that excellence and best practice isn't being run across the 130 00:08:11,629 --> 00:08:16,309 whole organisation necessarily in all areas in a really clear and consistent 131 00:08:16,309 --> 00:08:20,020 way and that's where, actually, if we want to go, you know, the opportunity 132 00:08:20,030 --> 00:08:23,870 is, you know, current plan, you know, roughly, let's just say we're worth a 133 00:08:23,990 --> 00:08:30,490 billion, one billion and three now, the current plan takes us to three billion. 134 00:08:31,490 --> 00:08:33,420 I think we need to be much more ambitious than that. 135 00:08:33,470 --> 00:08:35,629 I think we could be doing a hundred percent of that. 136 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,299 We could be square brackets working on a path now, how do we 137 00:08:39,299 --> 00:08:40,919 get to seven or eight billion? 138 00:08:40,949 --> 00:08:41,099 Yeah. 139 00:08:41,390 --> 00:08:45,050 But to do that, you know, this isn't about doubling the headcounts and 140 00:08:45,329 --> 00:08:48,500 doubling the number of the companies that we're investing in, but it is 141 00:08:48,500 --> 00:08:51,910 about doing what we do more efficiently and that's where this comes in. 142 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,210 But to be more efficient, we need to really understand how do we work 143 00:08:55,490 --> 00:08:59,549 across all the different stages of the sequence of what OSE does. 144 00:09:00,350 --> 00:09:04,320 So I will try and walk you through this in the air. 145 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,130 The elevator pitch. 146 00:09:06,430 --> 00:09:06,690 Yeah. 147 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:11,460 So the first thing is we need to maximise the number of high 148 00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:13,410 potential spin outs that we generate. 149 00:09:13,410 --> 00:09:18,779 So at the top of the funnel and there are a number of departments in the university 150 00:09:18,779 --> 00:09:21,869 where we have really amazing engagement. 151 00:09:22,125 --> 00:09:26,765 Some of our team members are in there regularly, at least once a week, coffees, 152 00:09:26,765 --> 00:09:30,315 walking the corridors, talking to the academics, there's a, you know, really 153 00:09:30,355 --> 00:09:34,555 sort of vibrant level of discussion and an idea generation, which is amazing. 154 00:09:34,874 --> 00:09:38,844 On the other end of the spectrum, there are some departments we have zero contact 155 00:09:38,845 --> 00:09:43,305 with at all, despite the fact we've been on the ground here, you know, we've got 55 156 00:09:43,305 --> 00:09:45,335 people, we've been here for eight years. 157 00:09:45,555 --> 00:09:49,365 So we can see there are some opportunities and we need to think about how we 158 00:09:49,365 --> 00:09:50,925 better engage with those departments. 159 00:09:50,935 --> 00:09:52,955 So it can't be a cookie cutter approach. 160 00:09:52,965 --> 00:09:56,435 We need to think in some areas and do we need to offer a prize? 161 00:09:56,445 --> 00:09:59,414 In other areas it might be more effective to bring in some of the 162 00:09:59,414 --> 00:10:03,345 successful academics who work with us who can come back and showcase 163 00:10:03,345 --> 00:10:05,285 by example what's possible. 164 00:10:05,285 --> 00:10:08,645 But in all cases what's really important, again we might come on 165 00:10:08,675 --> 00:10:12,874 talk about this, is OSE needs to be a lighthouse of inspiration. 166 00:10:12,885 --> 00:10:15,555 We have a very privileged position here in Oxford and we 167 00:10:15,555 --> 00:10:17,085 should not take that for granted. 168 00:10:17,085 --> 00:10:21,245 We have a special relationship with the university, but I would never want an 169 00:10:21,245 --> 00:10:25,515 academic to come to us and nor would they off the base of the fact that we 170 00:10:25,525 --> 00:10:26,954 have an agreement with the university. 171 00:10:26,954 --> 00:10:32,184 I want people to come to us as the first place they call because they have an idea 172 00:10:32,525 --> 00:10:36,155 of a business that they would consider spinning out and they come to us because 173 00:10:36,155 --> 00:10:37,785 they can see the strength of our offering. 174 00:10:38,095 --> 00:10:41,285 So the first thing we need to do is we need to improve our engagement across the 175 00:10:41,285 --> 00:10:43,174 university with, at the department level. 176 00:10:43,505 --> 00:10:45,135 to increase the top of the pipeline. 177 00:10:45,585 --> 00:10:49,885 Now, that is necessarily going to mean we're going to say no to things. 178 00:10:50,205 --> 00:10:52,475 We can't back every single business. 179 00:10:52,475 --> 00:10:56,004 But I want to invest more at that upfront stage and arguably, we're going 180 00:10:56,004 --> 00:10:59,394 to take some resource from the top end of the business at the later stage 181 00:10:59,395 --> 00:11:03,485 and bring it back down to that early stage, what we call sourcing phase. 182 00:11:04,110 --> 00:11:08,430 The second phase on the operating model is then the venture building 183 00:11:08,430 --> 00:11:12,670 phase and what we need to do here is we need to accelerate the 184 00:11:12,670 --> 00:11:14,610 speed at which we build companies. 185 00:11:15,060 --> 00:11:18,830 Again, just being very candid for a very obvious good reasons, OSE's done 186 00:11:18,830 --> 00:11:23,049 a really good job actually of building businesses, but we arguably stay in the 187 00:11:23,050 --> 00:11:27,230 build mode for a bit too long and it's a really simple thing, we just need to 188 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,770 have a clearer gate between the point at which the company is self standing 189 00:11:31,770 --> 00:11:36,070 and good to go and we can then let go and not sort of saying with a drift that 190 00:11:36,070 --> 00:11:40,720 we're sort of still building sort of X years in because once we've built a 191 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,199 standalone company, the measure of success should be that maybe bar a seat on the 192 00:11:45,199 --> 00:11:47,670 board, we can step right back, job done. 193 00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:51,295 So I'll give you an example of that, rather than us doing the hiring for 194 00:11:51,295 --> 00:11:54,215 the companies all the way through the journey, we should be embedding 195 00:11:54,245 --> 00:11:58,145 people in the companies to do that hiring more effectively themselves. 196 00:11:58,365 --> 00:12:01,625 How do we equip the companies and the founding teams to build 197 00:12:01,625 --> 00:12:04,565 the company more efficiently and effectively themselves rather than 198 00:12:04,565 --> 00:12:05,935 us doing all the heavy lifting? 199 00:12:06,135 --> 00:12:10,625 And I presume, sorry to interject, but you know, there will be culture that is 200 00:12:10,625 --> 00:12:16,194 specific to those companies too, and if you are too involved, you risk trying to 201 00:12:16,194 --> 00:12:20,104 make them homogenous or it by happening by accident, not even trying and that 202 00:12:20,104 --> 00:12:24,590 whatever is unique about that founder, might be a little bit diluted and that 203 00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:28,130 could actually have an impact on the probability of success in itself and yeah. 204 00:12:28,130 --> 00:12:30,875 Absolutely and there's going to be a phase right at the beginning, you know, 205 00:12:30,875 --> 00:12:35,554 we have one academic, we have some science and you know, and a legal framework of 206 00:12:35,554 --> 00:12:37,445 a company and some IP, but that's it. 207 00:12:37,655 --> 00:12:40,304 So in the early days, we're going to need to do that heavy lifting 208 00:12:40,304 --> 00:12:41,474 and helping build the team. 209 00:12:41,580 --> 00:12:45,420 And that's what somebody would expect from a good investor, is help and 210 00:12:45,429 --> 00:12:47,970 guidance and advice, to a point. 211 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,915 To a point and I think if we were to look at this point in 212 00:12:50,915 --> 00:12:52,885 tangible terms, what does it mean? 213 00:12:52,885 --> 00:12:59,515 It means that actually we incentivise the teams inside OSE that the success 214 00:12:59,515 --> 00:13:04,995 metric is the number of successful builds, yeah, that we can create in a year, 215 00:13:05,574 --> 00:13:07,405 rather than it's somewhat open ended. 216 00:13:07,415 --> 00:13:09,134 So that's the second way, we need to get that right. 217 00:13:09,135 --> 00:13:11,165 But I would say there's real excellence. 218 00:13:11,165 --> 00:13:14,735 I mean, one of the myths around OSE, of which there are 219 00:13:14,735 --> 00:13:17,145 a number, is that we are... 220 00:13:17,145 --> 00:13:18,175 I've never heard any of them! 221 00:13:18,175 --> 00:13:19,015 Ok, sure. 222 00:13:19,625 --> 00:13:21,955 of them is that we're an investor, full stop. 223 00:13:22,555 --> 00:13:25,360 We are an investor, but that is a fraction of what we do. 224 00:13:25,790 --> 00:13:28,400 I set up my first business at Cambridge. 225 00:13:28,860 --> 00:13:33,320 There was no organisation like OSE and frankly, if I had seen an OSE, I would 226 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:38,240 have bitten the arm off the organisation to do what we do, for free, to help 227 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:40,300 our academics build their company. 228 00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:45,140 So this venture building phase, we find the fractional CFO, we help put the EMI 229 00:13:45,140 --> 00:13:49,319 share option plan in, we get the lab space, we find the chairman, sometimes we 230 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,860 need to find the, I mean, it's a huge, we make sure they've got two bank accounts 231 00:13:52,860 --> 00:13:56,279 rather than one bank account with SVB, you know all these sorts of things. 232 00:13:56,510 --> 00:14:01,330 Yeah, there's a long list and that takes 18 to 36 months of heavy lifting. 233 00:14:01,650 --> 00:14:05,909 So we do that well, but we know there's more efficiency needed around it. 234 00:14:05,955 --> 00:14:09,235 The third phase is how do we help our companies scale? 235 00:14:09,575 --> 00:14:12,365 Obviously, there's some overlap with the venture building phase when we're 236 00:14:12,395 --> 00:14:14,315 thinking about scale then as well. 237 00:14:14,525 --> 00:14:17,145 But how do we manage that scale phase more efficiently? 238 00:14:17,155 --> 00:14:22,014 And so this is where we move into more of a portfolio management role and we 239 00:14:22,014 --> 00:14:25,870 need to think about how we manage a sort of growing portfolio of companies 240 00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:30,520 in a more traditional sort of VC sort of P manner where we've created the 241 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:31,980 company and then we can step back. 242 00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:36,319 So I think there's some things we need to think about and work on there. 243 00:14:37,510 --> 00:14:43,370 The fourth phase might initially sound a bit outta place, but 244 00:14:43,370 --> 00:14:44,810 I think it's really important. 245 00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:49,390 We want our companies to impact the world's greatest challenges. 246 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,360 So if we go right back to the beginning, we are looking for companies that 247 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,020 have the potential to become billion pound businesses and solve the world's 248 00:14:56,020 --> 00:15:00,580 greatest challenges and frankly, that's why many of the team, if not everyone 249 00:15:00,580 --> 00:15:03,130 on the team comes into work and it's partly why I've taken this role. 250 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:08,610 It's a really inspiring mission that we are explicit about internally and so on 251 00:15:08,610 --> 00:15:12,720 that journey, which sounds quite sort of operational from finding the spin outs 252 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,660 and venture building them and then manage them in a scalable way, that's all great. 253 00:15:18,020 --> 00:15:22,519 But also we want to make sure we don't lose sight of the fact that, you know, 254 00:15:22,549 --> 00:15:27,140 from an ESG perspective, but also from a motivational point of view, we're also 255 00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:31,780 looking to create companies that have a positive impact on the world and we need 256 00:15:31,780 --> 00:15:37,400 to get that right to drive the fifth stage of the flywheel, which is we need 257 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,490 to deliver returns for our shareholders. 258 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,560 Obviously, we're an investment business, yes, and we're all coming 259 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,120 into work to make a difference. 260 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,480 But at the end of the day, we also have to deliver the best possible 261 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,410 financial returns for our shareholders and this is the stage where, you 262 00:15:52,449 --> 00:15:54,270 know, Jack really comes into his own. 263 00:15:54,640 --> 00:16:00,510 He is responsible with my and Jim Wilkinson's support, the CFO, to maximise 264 00:16:00,530 --> 00:16:05,270 returns for our shareholders and the sixth and final stage of the flywheel, 265 00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:11,910 I've gone sort of round the clock, is if we get all of that right, then we help 266 00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:19,090 communicate the message that OSE is the partner of first choice for academics 267 00:16:19,439 --> 00:16:24,260 and for investors and other stakeholders that want to participate on this mission 268 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:27,820 because if we get all of those things right, then we become a very compelling 269 00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:33,210 partner to invest in, we've become a really compelling partner to help grow 270 00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:39,250 your business and we become an exciting place to work and that is the operating 271 00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:45,719 model and my job as CEO is, well, having helped to define that is then now to 272 00:16:45,719 --> 00:16:50,110 build a strategy that then executes on all of those different six areas. 273 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,060 Thank you, that was very clear and I imagine normally you have an 274 00:16:54,070 --> 00:16:55,340 infographic that helps you with that. 275 00:16:55,340 --> 00:16:57,170 I'm trying to, yeah, paint in the air! 276 00:16:57,380 --> 00:16:59,870 But hopefully it came across! 277 00:16:59,930 --> 00:17:00,430 Thank you. 278 00:17:00,430 --> 00:17:04,189 So at the end there you're talking about the partner of choice and you've 279 00:17:04,190 --> 00:17:08,209 obviously bought an enormous amount of money into Oxford university since 280 00:17:08,209 --> 00:17:13,020 inception in 2015, there's been a lot of businesses that come out and you 281 00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:14,200 know, you have already built a lot. 282 00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:19,300 There's a lot of brilliant stuff that's come out of OSE as an entity and yet, 283 00:17:19,550 --> 00:17:23,950 when you say partner of choice, you are alluding to the fact that there 284 00:17:23,950 --> 00:17:28,879 is perhaps a little bit of a sentiment among some, and I wouldn't say all 285 00:17:28,929 --> 00:17:33,830 by any stretch, that perhaps for some reasons, that hasn't been the case and 286 00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:37,120 you alluded, you know, or you mentioned outright, rather, some departments 287 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:41,109 have been better interacted with than others and they have borne more fruit, 288 00:17:41,149 --> 00:17:44,970 inevitably, maybe a better specialist, maybe just personalities at play. 289 00:17:45,570 --> 00:17:49,410 But you also spoke earlier about your role as a founder, your empathy for 290 00:17:49,410 --> 00:17:53,840 the founders, the importance of being involved, but then stepping back and it 291 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,145 is candidly one of the, you know, if we were to call them myths, but perhaps, 292 00:17:58,145 --> 00:18:02,655 you know, one could go further that I have heard about OSE is that there 293 00:18:02,655 --> 00:18:07,405 is a propensity to sometimes have a playbook, flip the founder out and the 294 00:18:07,405 --> 00:18:11,905 management team and clearly there's a few things in there, one is the investment 295 00:18:11,905 --> 00:18:17,275 cycle that you yourselves are to a degree answerable to as are all venture 296 00:18:17,275 --> 00:18:22,580 capital firms to a degree, but also there is a risk that a really great 297 00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:26,590 founder might say, well I don't know, they've got a bit of this reputation 298 00:18:27,030 --> 00:18:31,210 and so you've in part answered it, but I would sort of name it out front because 299 00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:34,370 it is there to be overcome, I think. 300 00:18:34,945 --> 00:18:38,785 Yeah, it's a really important point and look, I can relate to it on my 301 00:18:38,785 --> 00:18:43,315 own journey and you know, I think if I think back to when I brought the first 302 00:18:43,335 --> 00:18:47,955 VC money onto my third business, I've been through the journey twice and 303 00:18:47,955 --> 00:18:53,605 I'd seen it work well with one founder and less well with another founder. 304 00:18:54,065 --> 00:18:56,014 So I'd seen some data points around this. 305 00:18:56,034 --> 00:18:59,175 Actually, I made a point with that VC on the third business of saying to them 306 00:18:59,195 --> 00:19:04,160 when they came in, look, if at any point you think I'm not the right CEO for this 307 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,640 business, let's just sit down and have a conversation, because the reality is, 308 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:14,890 in most cases, the founding CEO is not necessarily the same and best person 309 00:19:14,890 --> 00:19:18,720 to take it all the way through to exit and if you look at OSE's journey, we've 310 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,320 been on our own sort of startup journey and you know, Dave Norwood, who I've had 311 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,160 many conversations with in the run up to taking the role, you know, he needed a 312 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,950 particular energy to, you know, to really get this off the ground and to knock 313 00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:36,550 some things together and so on, and to have real vision, whereas arguably today, 314 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,730 the role needs more operational focus. 315 00:19:39,730 --> 00:19:42,950 It's about scale and detail, it's a different focus. 316 00:19:43,380 --> 00:19:45,950 So it's not a, there's no implied criticism in this. 317 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:51,960 So I think almost unapologetically, I think as a responsible investor, when 318 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:57,390 you're a custodian of other people's money and in our case, that includes people's 319 00:19:57,420 --> 00:20:02,110 pension money, for example, but lots of people's money, it's incumbent on us to 320 00:20:02,110 --> 00:20:07,280 make the right decisions for our companies and sometimes that does mean we have to 321 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,940 make some hard decisions and I say, I've been on the receiving end of this, so 322 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:14,570 I know what that's like and it's very difficult when you've taken your baby and 323 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:20,290 you've put your life, soul, everything into it, it's a deep emotional attachment 324 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:23,490 you have to the business that you've taken from nothing to something, it's very 325 00:20:23,490 --> 00:20:29,480 difficult to step aside, but it's really important that founders, me included, know 326 00:20:29,490 --> 00:20:31,160 when it's the right time to step aside. 327 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:36,640 Now, having said all that, I think it's also incumbent on OSE and other investors, 328 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,180 particularly those of us, you know, we are doing a very specific type of investment 329 00:20:40,180 --> 00:20:43,720 because we're investing right at the beginning before there is a business. 330 00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:47,700 I really believe in transparency internally and I have a 331 00:20:47,740 --> 00:20:50,730 sort of term called radical transparency, which I try to adopt. 332 00:20:51,170 --> 00:20:55,195 But just on this, it's really important we're transparent with our founders at 333 00:20:55,195 --> 00:20:59,425 the beginning and we say to them, look, we might know at that point, you know, 334 00:20:59,425 --> 00:21:02,965 you could be an amazing chief science officer or an amazing chief technology 335 00:21:02,965 --> 00:21:08,065 officer, but you know, candidly, we don't think you've got the right skill set to 336 00:21:08,075 --> 00:21:12,245 be the CEO and if we know that at the beginning, we need to be clear about that. 337 00:21:12,465 --> 00:21:14,415 Now it's a hard judgment and maybe we don't know. 338 00:21:14,745 --> 00:21:17,535 It might be we say, look, we're really happy to back you now, but we're going 339 00:21:17,535 --> 00:21:19,465 to need to review this in two years. 340 00:21:19,875 --> 00:21:24,395 So I think those questions need to be had in an open and transparent way 341 00:21:24,445 --> 00:21:29,075 and it's not a criticism because not everyone is cut out for every single 342 00:21:29,075 --> 00:21:34,225 role in the building of a business and people need to be highly self aware and 343 00:21:34,255 --> 00:21:40,265 open to feedback and guided to play to their strengths for the interests of 344 00:21:40,265 --> 00:21:44,436 the whole team and the whole business and by the way that includes OSE. 345 00:21:44,786 --> 00:21:47,705 So those are my thoughts on that, but it's a question that's come 346 00:21:47,705 --> 00:21:50,695 up very close to my heart, a number of times on my own journey. 347 00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:52,320 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 348 00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:57,170 One of the other kind of things that one has heard over the years is that 349 00:21:57,170 --> 00:22:00,240 because we're this number one leading university in Oxford and we've got all 350 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,300 the great science that sometimes we have given the impression to other investors 351 00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:09,585 that might want to come in and bring capital to play here, sort of almost 352 00:22:09,585 --> 00:22:12,270 that we don't need them, which of course is never going to be anyone's intent 353 00:22:12,290 --> 00:22:13,890 and couldn't be further from the truth. 354 00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:16,970 You've just talked about scaling, clearly that would require more capital. 355 00:22:17,995 --> 00:22:21,645 But, you know, if those investors hopefully might possibly be 356 00:22:21,645 --> 00:22:22,785 listening, what would you say? 357 00:22:22,785 --> 00:22:26,285 And in this role, how do you view those investors coming in? 358 00:22:26,565 --> 00:22:30,755 I think the most important thing I can say on this, just to be really clear, 359 00:22:30,895 --> 00:22:35,815 is we are open for business, full stop and I can stop right there, but 360 00:22:36,185 --> 00:22:37,935 let me expand on why I'm saying that. 361 00:22:38,545 --> 00:22:44,700 I understand why there is a perception that OSE is in some areas perceived 362 00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:48,360 as a gatekeeper, maybe even as a blocker, to other investors 363 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:50,030 coming into the ecosystem here. 364 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,370 But I categorically can tell you it is not true today and Jim and 365 00:22:56,370 --> 00:23:01,160 I are on a mission to really reset the false narrative around this. 366 00:23:01,550 --> 00:23:03,900 But let's just go back because it hasn't come from nowhere. 367 00:23:04,550 --> 00:23:09,430 It's come from a time, I think, in the early days of OSE when, you know, it was 368 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:15,660 for sure the key, biggest, only major player on the ground in this area in 369 00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:20,135 Oxford and it had an approach where it was looking to do a hundred percent of 370 00:23:20,135 --> 00:23:22,335 every single spin out that came out. 371 00:23:22,835 --> 00:23:25,815 That is not the case today and hasn't been for the last few years. 372 00:23:26,235 --> 00:23:29,045 I've asked my team because I've had this fed back to me a number 373 00:23:29,045 --> 00:23:30,825 of times in the first five months. 374 00:23:31,375 --> 00:23:32,925 The numbers speak for themselves. 375 00:23:33,365 --> 00:23:38,745 We've invested approaching a billion pounds in Oxford in the last eight years. 376 00:23:39,405 --> 00:23:45,415 We have now leveraged another billion on top, so two billion pounds that we've put 377 00:23:45,415 --> 00:23:50,935 into Oxford University spin outs, that other billion has come from north of 300 378 00:23:50,975 --> 00:23:55,315 co investors who we have brought into the ecosystem to invest alongside us. 379 00:23:55,835 --> 00:24:00,005 We had a deep tech event in London a couple of weeks ago where we wanted to 380 00:24:00,005 --> 00:24:04,005 showcase some of the really exciting companies in the deep tech portfolio. 381 00:24:04,345 --> 00:24:10,770 We had 140 investors, attendees at that event and we're doing this 382 00:24:10,830 --> 00:24:17,100 because number one, it makes total economic sense for us to share the 383 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:19,000 load of what we're trying to do. 384 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,540 We cannot do this and do not want to do this on our own. 385 00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:25,940 We don't want to be sat owning 100 percent of every single company in our portfolio. 386 00:24:26,150 --> 00:24:31,230 We want to bring in smart investment capital to sit alongside us, to support 387 00:24:31,230 --> 00:24:33,510 us and support our companies financially. 388 00:24:33,745 --> 00:24:37,585 But also to validate the theses of our investments, many of the companies 389 00:24:37,585 --> 00:24:41,065 we're investing are doing things that have never been done before and so 390 00:24:41,095 --> 00:24:45,905 the more brains and smart capital we have alongside us, the better. 391 00:24:46,355 --> 00:24:51,765 So I say, I can see where it's come from, but we actively want more 392 00:24:51,765 --> 00:24:53,775 investors in the ecosystem here. 393 00:24:54,145 --> 00:25:00,115 The challenge we've got now, and I'm saying this in a, OSE has 55 people 394 00:25:00,155 --> 00:25:06,235 on the ground here, just numerically we've invested in more people, in 395 00:25:06,235 --> 00:25:10,575 more departments, we're sponsoring more courses, more PhDs, I mean, we're 396 00:25:10,575 --> 00:25:15,525 spending millions just in the ecosystem here and so we are very present and 397 00:25:15,985 --> 00:25:19,980 there will be some Investors who don't want to get on the 50 minute train 398 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,390 from Paddington to Oxford, but frankly, they're missing out and from our point 399 00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:25,500 of view, we would love to see them. 400 00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:26,790 We'd love to have them here. 401 00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:31,460 But, I think we, you know, we should be confidently saying that we collectively, 402 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:37,560 as in the university and OSE, OUI, we've built something really incredible in OSE. 403 00:25:37,940 --> 00:25:41,110 We believe we are the largest venture builder of spin outs 404 00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:42,500 outside the United States. 405 00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:46,050 That's something we should be really proud of and if you just look at the capital we 406 00:25:46,050 --> 00:25:51,000 brought in, it far outstrips anything else across Europe and so I say we should be 407 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,620 really proud of that and we're saying that with a view to how do we use that success 408 00:25:56,020 --> 00:26:00,990 to be a magnet to bring in even more capital than we currently have and that's 409 00:26:00,990 --> 00:26:05,760 what I say we're on a mission to sort of course correct in terms of the narrative. 410 00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:09,250 Okay, so I'm going to lay the final one out for you Ed, because you know, 411 00:26:09,310 --> 00:26:11,420 we're on a roll now, killing the myths. 412 00:26:11,630 --> 00:26:14,390 One of the other things that I have sometimes heard, and I'm sure you have, 413 00:26:14,420 --> 00:26:18,390 and to be honest, it's now sort of been brought to the fore by, you know, Irene 414 00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:21,840 Tracey being a co author of the spin out review and one of the things that 415 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,335 was in there was equity stakes and have historically heard that, you know, the 416 00:26:26,335 --> 00:26:31,255 perception was that the equity stakes taken by Oxford and by extension by OSE 417 00:26:31,275 --> 00:26:35,765 in many cases was too large and that was having a dampening effect on other 418 00:26:35,995 --> 00:26:39,955 great investors that you just alluded to wanting to have alongside for all 419 00:26:39,965 --> 00:26:43,745 of the great signaling and you know what they can bring in their networks. 420 00:26:44,115 --> 00:26:48,105 So what would you say to that particular sort of perception? 421 00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:52,650 Well, I think the consensus of the review was that actually we've landed 422 00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:59,080 in exactly the right place in so far as the university has a 20 percent position 423 00:26:59,130 --> 00:27:05,450 in spin outs that include IP that has been somehow, some form funded by the 424 00:27:05,450 --> 00:27:11,350 university and again, historically, it was a bigger percentage and so you can 425 00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:15,350 see where it's come from, but I think everyone, no, well, it's not everybody, 426 00:27:15,630 --> 00:27:19,270 most people I'm talking to think that's, you know, bearing in mind the maturity 427 00:27:19,270 --> 00:27:22,860 of the ecosystem here, most people feel that's about the right balance. 428 00:27:22,870 --> 00:27:27,560 So the founders have 80 percent and the university, based off its ownership 429 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:33,890 of the IP, lands at 20% and that model is, and that template has, is being 430 00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:38,840 followed by Northern Gritstone in Manchester, by Midlands Mineforge and 431 00:27:38,850 --> 00:27:42,690 others, I gather even in Australia, they're copying the same template. 432 00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:45,960 I feel relatively comfortable, and most of the people I'm 433 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,280 talking to feel it's about right. 434 00:27:47,730 --> 00:27:53,000 Now, when we're maybe at the level of MIT and you know, this flywheel is just 435 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,220 throwing off spin outs and you know, there's an enormous amount of money coming 436 00:27:57,220 --> 00:28:01,370 back into the University Endowment Fund and the College Endowment Fund, maybe 437 00:28:01,370 --> 00:28:04,700 we can take another look at it, but we're not there yet, we're not close. 438 00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:08,400 Now our ambition and my ambition with OSE is we get it to that sort of level, 439 00:28:08,850 --> 00:28:10,650 but that is not where we are right now. 440 00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:14,060 So I think over time we need to, we might need to review it again, but I think 441 00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:15,460 it's about right for where we are now. 442 00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:16,830 Perfect, thank you. 443 00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:22,700 So talking about MIT and Institutes of Technology, how do you think the Ellison 444 00:28:22,730 --> 00:28:26,880 Institute for Technology is going to impact Oxford and what's your view? 445 00:28:27,205 --> 00:28:32,865 Well, I mean, I think, it's an incredible stamp of approval and validation on the 446 00:28:32,865 --> 00:28:37,375 quality of the science that's here and I think that's just a, you know, a massive 447 00:28:37,375 --> 00:28:42,755 tick in the box for Oxford in the broadest sense and you know it's exciting, again 448 00:28:42,755 --> 00:28:49,265 it's just the sense that Larry Ellison has picked Oxford for this and is investing 449 00:28:49,265 --> 00:28:55,015 a significant amount of capital in Oxford to create something so exciting, I think 450 00:28:55,025 --> 00:29:01,445 just speaks to, and I'm saying this as a Cambridge graduate, speaks to what is 451 00:29:01,495 --> 00:29:07,405 actually really special about Oxford and why, when I look at just the mind blowing 452 00:29:07,405 --> 00:29:12,505 science that's coming out of the labs that we're seeing, that we're turning 453 00:29:12,505 --> 00:29:14,335 into companies that will change the world. 454 00:29:14,515 --> 00:29:19,305 I can see why he's chosen Oxford and I think it just reinforces the, power 455 00:29:19,305 --> 00:29:23,015 of the ecosystem and the brand that we have here, which is globally recognised. 456 00:29:23,035 --> 00:29:26,845 I mean, essentially, if you look at our cap table, a significant proportion of 457 00:29:26,845 --> 00:29:31,845 our investors come from outside the UK and the draw is the Oxford brand, the 458 00:29:31,845 --> 00:29:35,725 quality of the science and the quality of the companies that are coming out 459 00:29:35,735 --> 00:29:37,340 of the ecosystem off the back of that. 460 00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:41,030 Yeah, really interesting and you spoke about your experience 461 00:29:41,030 --> 00:29:42,090 in government earlier. 462 00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:45,250 What are the interactions that you're having on that front 463 00:29:45,290 --> 00:29:46,880 at the moment in your role? 464 00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:50,160 So I guess there are a couple of themes. 465 00:29:50,770 --> 00:29:54,980 So I'm talking, I'm on different round tables, sort of up to a 466 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,650 ministerial level, I was in 10 Downing Street a couple of months ago. 467 00:29:59,060 --> 00:30:04,510 I think there's a few themes to this and it's a dialogue that's work in progress. 468 00:30:04,510 --> 00:30:13,110 But one of the themes is that I truly believe that the university science 469 00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:20,560 ecosystems that we are building here in the UK are a national asset and I want to 470 00:30:20,580 --> 00:30:24,760 challenge the awareness of this because I think we're sat on, if I quote somebody 471 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:30,310 who's taken a look at our portfolio, we're sat on their equivalent of Gulf Oil. 472 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,375 There are very few countries that dominate, well we dominate the 473 00:30:35,375 --> 00:30:38,685 university league table and if you look at the science and the spin 474 00:30:38,685 --> 00:30:40,745 outs coming out, it is world class. 475 00:30:41,175 --> 00:30:47,085 So I don't think there is as widespread understanding, sort of more nationally, 476 00:30:47,345 --> 00:30:52,375 around how valuable this is as an asset to the whole country, so that's one thing. 477 00:30:52,565 --> 00:30:56,355 I can see that's understood at a senior level in government, but I think 478 00:30:56,355 --> 00:31:00,505 we could do more to really amplify how valuable this is to everybody. 479 00:31:00,735 --> 00:31:03,055 Well, but it's only valuable if we keep it here. 480 00:31:03,355 --> 00:31:05,835 And that's my second point! 481 00:31:05,865 --> 00:31:09,275 And there are different schools of thought on this and I do understand at some 482 00:31:09,275 --> 00:31:11,955 point, you know, you need to follow the money and follow where the returns are. 483 00:31:12,435 --> 00:31:17,665 But my second challenge is, and I'm watching this sort of ringside seats. 484 00:31:18,325 --> 00:31:23,675 We, as in not just OSE, but others, are doing an incredible job taking the most 485 00:31:23,675 --> 00:31:28,105 advanced science on the planet, going through all the hard yards and pain of 486 00:31:28,105 --> 00:31:32,895 building a self standing company, raising considerable amounts of capital and then 487 00:31:32,895 --> 00:31:38,635 we catapult it out of the UK, to list somewhere on NASDAQ or somewhere else and 488 00:31:38,645 --> 00:31:42,875 look, that's in and of itself, that's not a bad thing and you get good valuations 489 00:31:42,875 --> 00:31:48,140 and so on, but some of our companies are critical to the national interest, they're 490 00:31:48,140 --> 00:31:53,840 strategically valuable to the UK and so again, I just want to just challenge, I'm 491 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,340 not saying it's the wrong thing to do. 492 00:31:55,340 --> 00:32:00,270 I just want to challenge the, status quo because right now that 493 00:32:00,270 --> 00:32:04,190 is almost the default conveyor belt. 494 00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:10,010 We build the business, we invest in it and then we launch it off into another market 495 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,830 and then when the big liquidity event happens, I know the listing or whatever, 496 00:32:15,210 --> 00:32:20,560 that capital, the flow of that capital, then cascades down somewhere else and what 497 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:26,600 we need to then inspire and capitalise the next generation of entrepreneurs, which is 498 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,420 why the US has been so successful, we need that to happen in Oxford, in Cambridge 499 00:32:30,430 --> 00:32:35,100 and in Manchester and Leeds and Sheffield, that's where we need to have it and so 500 00:32:35,130 --> 00:32:37,170 that we can start recycling that capital. 501 00:32:37,650 --> 00:32:41,220 So that's my second challenge, I think there's more around skills and so on, 502 00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:42,910 but I think those are the two big themes. 503 00:32:43,060 --> 00:32:47,190 Yeah, no, it's really interesting and I've had, you know, in projects I've worked on 504 00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:54,080 discussions with government and you know, in particular focused on scale up capital 505 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,670 that companies need and where there's a real drop off in domestic capital and it's 506 00:32:58,670 --> 00:33:03,159 an interesting question because domestic capital clearly keeps companies in the UK. 507 00:33:03,310 --> 00:33:05,750 But you've got international capital, but you're domestically 508 00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:07,080 based, so that can work too. 509 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,460 It doesn't have to mutually exclusive. 510 00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:10,560 Yeah, absolutely. 511 00:33:10,860 --> 00:33:15,150 But you know, actually one of our guests previously was Alderman Nicholas Lyons, 512 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,880 who was the Lord Mayor that brought across the Mansion House Compact and 513 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,660 very successfully getting defined contribution pension plans to commit 514 00:33:22,660 --> 00:33:28,420 to 5 percent in unlisted by 2030, which will be a huge amount of money. 515 00:33:28,905 --> 00:33:31,635 How do you see that playing into these problems? 516 00:33:31,915 --> 00:33:33,415 Are you looking to capture some of that money? 517 00:33:33,415 --> 00:33:33,735 Are you..? 518 00:33:33,890 --> 00:33:39,460 Absolutely and so by the way, when I say I just want to raise this, it's to be fair 519 00:33:39,460 --> 00:33:41,080 to the people I'm speaking in government. 520 00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:44,860 I'm preaching to the converted by the way, so this is not new news. 521 00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:47,615 They're they're quite good at agreeing and maybe... 522 00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:52,310 I'm giving a live example of, the implications of this not being the case 523 00:33:52,310 --> 00:33:56,630 right now, because I'm saying we're watching this live with some really 524 00:33:56,690 --> 00:34:03,150 exciting, globally unique companies looking at moving, their headquarters 525 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,210 out of the UK to other countries. 526 00:34:05,210 --> 00:34:06,280 So the momentum is not in the right direction. 527 00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:07,690 It's not in the right direction. 528 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,060 So I think the government understands this. 529 00:34:10,370 --> 00:34:14,910 I think the mansion house compact is really, it's really encouraging, you know, 530 00:34:14,910 --> 00:34:16,680 in our world, five years is a long time. 531 00:34:17,625 --> 00:34:22,225 Okay, so I think if we can work, we collectively can work this through, 532 00:34:22,235 --> 00:34:25,565 it'd be, it would be a good, there's clearly a significant pool of capital 533 00:34:25,805 --> 00:34:31,115 and yes, we have conversations running as well with pension funds and hopefully 534 00:34:31,115 --> 00:34:33,175 we can fast track some of that process. 535 00:34:33,495 --> 00:34:39,585 But this process needs to work because it's a critical missing piece right 536 00:34:39,585 --> 00:34:45,235 now and we have, the capital is sat there and if we can unlock it in 537 00:34:45,245 --> 00:34:48,500 the way that it, what we're talking about that could solve some of these 538 00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:50,880 issues, it could be a game changer. 539 00:34:51,090 --> 00:34:54,480 So there's a bit of me that's really excited about it, but as I say, 540 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,890 five, six years is a long wait. 541 00:34:56,890 --> 00:35:00,670 So I'm really hoping that, you know, we'll get some movement on that within that 542 00:35:00,670 --> 00:35:04,810 timeframe rather than we have to wait till 2030 to see the first funds flowing. 543 00:35:05,115 --> 00:35:06,735 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. 544 00:35:07,155 --> 00:35:10,555 It's four trillion nearly, that we've got in pension capital and less than 545 00:35:10,555 --> 00:35:14,995 one percent invested and so I think the government are slightly hamstrung by 546 00:35:14,995 --> 00:35:20,660 the financial circumstance but you know, tax breaks, UK ISAs, encouraging our 547 00:35:20,660 --> 00:35:24,830 own pension funds to invest, all these seem like, you know, low hanging fruit. 548 00:35:25,610 --> 00:35:27,650 So that's exciting, hopefully. 549 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,000 Well, listen, thank you so much, Ed. 550 00:35:30,010 --> 00:35:34,060 You've been really candid and open, and I hope you don't mind me sort of throwing 551 00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:36,660 you the sacred cows to kill, as it were. 552 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,980 Is there anything else that you kind of particularly wanted to have as a 553 00:35:40,990 --> 00:35:43,200 parting thought for anyone listening? 554 00:35:43,810 --> 00:35:48,130 First of all, thanks to you for giving me the opportunity to share my thoughts. 555 00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:53,540 My approach is always to be very candid, I think that's really the only 556 00:35:53,540 --> 00:35:55,710 way, not everyone's going to agree. 557 00:35:56,130 --> 00:36:02,365 But I guess probably all I would say is, I genuinely believe that we have 558 00:36:02,365 --> 00:36:04,325 something quite remarkable here. 559 00:36:04,485 --> 00:36:08,165 I want to say we have, what we have is not just OSE, we have an 560 00:36:08,175 --> 00:36:12,315 ecosystem with the most incredible science, with some really incredible 561 00:36:12,315 --> 00:36:15,405 talent and the capital and a brand. 562 00:36:15,765 --> 00:36:20,975 We have all the ingredients to build something amazing and I'm determined 563 00:36:20,995 --> 00:36:26,305 to make that happen and I guess my ask of people in the ecosystem is please 564 00:36:26,305 --> 00:36:32,315 help, please help us, because the more of us that can get behind this endeavor, 565 00:36:32,635 --> 00:36:36,925 broader than building OSE, but build the endeavor of building a really exciting 566 00:36:37,385 --> 00:36:39,955 ecosystem around this, the better. 567 00:36:40,475 --> 00:36:44,395 That's probably one thing and the second thing is, you know, inevitably when you're 568 00:36:44,405 --> 00:36:48,165 trying to do something new, you're going to misstep and there's going to be some 569 00:36:48,165 --> 00:36:54,065 trip ups along the way and in the same way I am candid in what I say, I'm also 570 00:36:54,065 --> 00:37:02,175 very open and approachable on feedback and I really encourage anyone who, if there 571 00:37:02,175 --> 00:37:06,440 are any missteps on our part or issues that, you know, people just call me. 572 00:37:07,835 --> 00:37:08,465 Come and tell me. 573 00:37:08,515 --> 00:37:10,625 I'm interested to understand where can we do better? 574 00:37:11,215 --> 00:37:12,445 What could we do differently? 575 00:37:12,515 --> 00:37:16,795 I am just interested in building something incredible and the more I 576 00:37:16,795 --> 00:37:20,055 can learn from where we're getting things wrong, as well as things right, 577 00:37:20,125 --> 00:37:22,285 the more likely we can be successful. 578 00:37:22,595 --> 00:37:26,505 Thank you, I'm sure that will be well received and thank you so much for 579 00:37:26,505 --> 00:37:30,305 your time and your candor Thanks for listening to this episode of Oxford+ 580 00:37:30,655 --> 00:37:32,465 presented by me, Susannah de Jager. 581 00:37:32,945 --> 00:37:36,355 If you want to stay up to date with all things Oxford+, please visit our website 582 00:37:36,405 --> 00:37:41,175 OxfordPlus.co.uk and sign up to our newsletter so you never miss an update. 583 00:37:41,785 --> 00:37:44,965 Oxford+ was made in partnership with Mishcon de Reya and is produced 584 00:37:44,965 --> 00:37:51,975 and edited by Story Ninety-Four.