1 00:00:00,010 --> 00:00:03,030 Tom: Chaz, when you said it off camera and then Stu stole your thunder, 2 00:00:03,070 --> 00:00:07,490 Tom: I immediately went, oh yes, that's absolutely right. 3 00:00:07,750 --> 00:00:11,050 Tom: And now that I think about it, I go, is it? 4 00:00:20,730 --> 00:00:22,190 Stu: Hi, I'm Stu Willis. 5 00:00:22,370 --> 00:00:23,450 Chas: And I'm Chaz Fisher. 6 00:00:23,630 --> 00:00:28,490 Stu: And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two emerging filmmakers and a special 7 00:00:28,490 --> 00:00:32,730 Stu: guest in today's episode, try to work out what makes great screenplays work. 8 00:00:32,930 --> 00:00:37,270 Chas: One established screenwriter. And just before we introduce him to let everyone 9 00:00:37,270 --> 00:00:42,450 Chas: know, today we brought our guest on in particular to talk about subtext. 10 00:00:42,650 --> 00:00:46,130 Chas: We're going to talk about what subtext means to us. 11 00:00:46,330 --> 00:00:51,550 Chas: In particular, I guess, how to make it work and whether it should be an objective at all. 12 00:00:51,690 --> 00:00:55,730 Chas: And to do so, we're looking in particular at the films of Michael Clayton. 13 00:00:55,730 --> 00:01:02,410 Chas: Yes, Michael Clayton is back after last episode, written and directed by Tony Gilroy. 14 00:01:02,610 --> 00:01:07,110 Chas: We're looking at Inglourious Bastards, which we've done a whole episode on Tarantino, 15 00:01:07,230 --> 00:01:10,890 Chas: but I'm not sure if we've ever done Inglourious Bastards in particular, 16 00:01:11,190 --> 00:01:13,170 Chas: written and directed by Quentin Tarantino. 17 00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:20,590 Chas: And then we are doing the fabulous, more recent entry into this particular group, 18 00:01:20,990 --> 00:01:24,290 Chas: The Substance, written and directed by Coralie Faget. 19 00:01:24,510 --> 00:01:24,950 Tom: Yes. 20 00:01:24,950 --> 00:01:29,250 Stu: And that voice you hear is this established screenwriter. It is Tom Vaughan, 21 00:01:29,350 --> 00:01:30,630 Stu: screenwriter and teacher. 22 00:01:31,130 --> 00:01:34,490 Stu: Tom, if you don't know him, he's quite active on social media. 23 00:01:34,610 --> 00:01:37,570 Stu: And I started reading his tidbits about screenwriting and went, 24 00:01:37,650 --> 00:01:41,630 Stu: oh, this is a guy who kind of aligns with the way I think about screenwriting. 25 00:01:41,770 --> 00:01:46,270 Stu: And I signed up to his excellent newsletter, Story and Plot. 26 00:01:46,430 --> 00:01:50,250 Stu: And he wrote this incredible article on how subtext is overrated. 27 00:01:50,830 --> 00:01:54,270 Stu: And here we are, almost a year later, we're trying to organize it, 28 00:01:54,390 --> 00:01:55,450 Stu: having and talking about it. 29 00:01:55,530 --> 00:01:59,190 Stu: We have Tom on the show to join us talking about Subtext. Welcome. 30 00:01:59,550 --> 00:02:05,850 Tom: Thank you. Yeah, it's been a lot of direct text trying to get a meeting going. 31 00:02:06,550 --> 00:02:09,850 Stu: In our defense, even though you've written a film that was shot in Australia, 32 00:02:10,090 --> 00:02:14,270 Stu: which is The Great Winchester, you're actually based in Texas. 33 00:02:14,270 --> 00:02:21,770 Tom: I am. I am based in Texas and dying to get down there to film another movie, hopefully pretty soon. 34 00:02:22,370 --> 00:02:26,910 Stu: Awesome. And maybe the fact that you obviously have a passion for horror is 35 00:02:26,910 --> 00:02:31,270 Stu: maybe the reason I align with your take on it, because I think some of those 36 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:35,410 Stu: more visceral genres require a certain approach to screenwriting. 37 00:02:35,510 --> 00:02:39,210 Stu: And that is reflected in this conversation around subtext. 38 00:02:39,470 --> 00:02:43,690 Stu: So I'm going to start with my kind of biases, because I think we should define subtext. 39 00:02:43,690 --> 00:02:49,170 Chas: Sure i love that you're starting and not asking our guest what his take on subtext this is very draft. 40 00:02:50,140 --> 00:02:55,500 Stu: This is true maybe we should cut this and we go tom why is subtext overrated no. 41 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:58,220 Tom: I i want mine to be a reaction okay. 42 00:02:58,220 --> 00:02:59,740 Chas: All right so stew you go. 43 00:02:59,740 --> 00:03:02,620 Stu: Okay so it's not what is subtext it's more 44 00:03:02,620 --> 00:03:05,920 Stu: like why i'm interested in this when i was a beginning screenwriter 45 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:09,020 Stu: i wrote stuff and i kind of struggled 46 00:03:09,020 --> 00:03:12,300 Stu: with the idea of subtext and i was making stuff where characters 47 00:03:12,300 --> 00:03:15,360 Stu: kind of talked around each other and it didn't really sound natural and 48 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,300 Stu: it was overly loaded or overly laden with 49 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:21,120 Stu: symbolism right i kind of made stuff 50 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,900 Stu: like a little bit indecipherable but i thought it 51 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:26,740 Stu: was like subtext sure and i've taught screenwriting and seen 52 00:03:26,740 --> 00:03:29,920 Stu: that same problem with kids it's like how do you kids i 53 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:32,720 Stu: mean they're young young adults and it's like how do you teach people to 54 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,740 Stu: think about subtext so there's that element of like at the beginning of 55 00:03:35,740 --> 00:03:38,760 Stu: your screenwriting journey but i think as i've gotten older 56 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,220 Stu: and more experienced it's less about that and more about how do i write the 57 00:03:43,220 --> 00:03:48,300 Stu: subtext on the page what are the tools that i can use to kind of i was gonna 58 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:53,300 Stu: say the implicit explicit in a way but we'll get to what i mean by that what 59 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:57,060 Stu: about you chas what kind of brought you to to wanting to discuss this with tom i. 60 00:03:57,060 --> 00:03:59,820 Chas: Think i'm just going to be a bit literal for a 61 00:03:59,820 --> 00:04:03,060 Chas: second subtext is whatever text 62 00:04:03,060 --> 00:04:05,960 Chas: is going on beneath the text so what 63 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,860 Chas: do we mean by text i'm like we're talking about film 64 00:04:08,860 --> 00:04:12,260 Chas: and tv what are the characters literally doing 65 00:04:12,260 --> 00:04:16,100 Chas: and saying and is there any other meaning underneath 66 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:18,880 Chas: that beyond the literal beyond what they're doing and 67 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:25,220 Chas: saying and that to me is subtext and there's i think when when subtext is done 68 00:04:25,220 --> 00:04:29,100 Chas: really well in a scene where and we're going to look at this incredible scene 69 00:04:29,100 --> 00:04:33,660 Chas: from michael clayton where two characters are talking around something but the 70 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:37,080 Chas: audience understands so clearly what they're actually talking about, 71 00:04:37,460 --> 00:04:42,100 Chas: that it can be seen as subtle and deft and awesome. 72 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,220 Chas: But I think there's a lot of work going on under the hood of those scenes that 73 00:04:47,220 --> 00:04:53,660 Chas: is not like a writer just going, oh, I need to be more subtle or something like that to- 74 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:58,630 Chas: to make subtext work. So not to bury the lead. All right, Tom, 75 00:04:58,910 --> 00:05:01,730 Chas: reaction time. What's your take on subtext? 76 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:09,470 Tom: I think they're both fine takes. I think the literal take is definitely what I tend to think about. 77 00:05:09,730 --> 00:05:12,550 Tom: I know when I'm writing, I've been writing a long time. 78 00:05:13,630 --> 00:05:18,950 Tom: I used to find subtext fun, you know, a lot like Stu of like, 79 00:05:19,070 --> 00:05:20,410 Tom: okay, this is part of the job. 80 00:05:21,190 --> 00:05:26,770 Tom: And now I don't think about it at all. Like I never, it never occurs to me about subtext. 81 00:05:27,150 --> 00:05:30,590 Tom: It's just not parts, it's just not part of my scenes anymore. 82 00:05:31,310 --> 00:05:36,730 Tom: And I think someone who would read my scenes or, you know, watch these movies 83 00:05:36,730 --> 00:05:39,170 Tom: would think, oh, that subtext. 84 00:05:40,150 --> 00:05:44,510 Tom: Because just like from the literal, you know, explanation that you had, 85 00:05:44,650 --> 00:05:47,070 Tom: it was just like, well, it's just what's not being said. 86 00:05:47,590 --> 00:05:51,030 Tom: But for me, it's, it's just 87 00:05:51,030 --> 00:05:54,270 Tom: tactics it's just tactics and fear it 88 00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:57,450 Tom: is how are you trying to get what you want and what 89 00:05:57,450 --> 00:06:04,110 Tom: are you willing to reveal to the people in the room yeah and so it comes out 90 00:06:04,110 --> 00:06:10,110 Tom: sounding like subtext but from a dramatic standpoint everyone in the room knows 91 00:06:10,110 --> 00:06:14,150 Tom: everyone in the audience knows just that that scene for michael clayton everyone 92 00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:16,930 Tom: in the audience knows exactly what this scene is about, 93 00:06:17,590 --> 00:06:23,790 Tom: And it reminds me of the old Billy Wilder line of, it can be subtle as long as it's obvious. 94 00:06:25,310 --> 00:06:27,170 Stu: I bet it's actually so good. 95 00:06:27,310 --> 00:06:32,090 Tom: So you start out when you're writing and you want to have subtext and you hope 96 00:06:32,090 --> 00:06:34,570 Tom: that you can sit there with the actors and explain it to them. 97 00:06:34,670 --> 00:06:36,950 Tom: And they go, oh, I see. That's great. 98 00:06:37,410 --> 00:06:39,370 Tom: And that's actually bad writing. 99 00:06:40,230 --> 00:06:45,310 Tom: It's actually not particularly interesting writing from a dramatic standpoint. 100 00:06:45,310 --> 00:06:51,650 Tom: So you know when i approach a scene it's it is what are they revealing what 101 00:06:51,650 --> 00:06:54,930 Tom: are they willing to reveal what do they want what are they trying to get what 102 00:06:54,930 --> 00:07:00,890 Tom: are they willing to reveal and it is it is either a tactic to get what they 103 00:07:00,890 --> 00:07:04,150 Tom: want or a tactic to avoid what they don't want yeah. 104 00:07:04,150 --> 00:07:11,910 Chas: And i think before we jump in uh for the for your benefit tom sue and i have 105 00:07:11,910 --> 00:07:16,590 Chas: had several explorations on tactics in previous episodes, 106 00:07:16,830 --> 00:07:19,290 Chas: which is, we've never discussed it in this context. 107 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:24,230 Chas: So just to say that we're really on board that approach. 108 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:29,450 Chas: It even happened in a recent workshop on a piece of work of mine where people, 109 00:07:29,670 --> 00:07:34,550 Chas: I've got these moments where the characters build up and they let loose the truth of themselves. 110 00:07:35,010 --> 00:07:40,210 Chas: And I believe it was Stu. If not, I make Stu the villain of all my stories but 111 00:07:40,210 --> 00:07:44,670 Chas: he said oh we can do that yeah oh yeah we can but she was like 112 00:07:44,980 --> 00:07:48,420 Chas: So why did they do that? What are they trying to achieve? 113 00:07:48,620 --> 00:07:51,580 Chas: What is their tactic in revealing the truth of themselves? 114 00:07:51,780 --> 00:07:55,660 Chas: What is it they want that they've been left with no other recourse other than 115 00:07:55,660 --> 00:07:59,400 Chas: to reveal the truth of themselves? I'm like, damn it, those are really good questions. 116 00:08:01,020 --> 00:08:02,040 Tom: It's a good model. 117 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:02,440 Chas: Arthur. 118 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:06,780 Stu: I mean, what I like about your take on tactics there, 119 00:08:06,940 --> 00:08:10,660 Stu: which is what are they trying to reveal or not reveal, 120 00:08:10,660 --> 00:08:15,360 Stu: I like that as a simple way of thinking about it in the same way that another 121 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,520 Stu: thing that I think we can explore in these scenes a little bit is this idea 122 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:23,540 Stu: of the emotional event, which we got from Judith Weston and we did an episode with her. 123 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:24,500 Tom: Gosh, she's great. 124 00:08:24,780 --> 00:08:28,940 Stu: Yeah. And I love that she's got this beautiful, complex story about emotional events. 125 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,920 Stu: She's like, the simple way of thinking about is this relationship close? 126 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,560 Stu: Are these people closer or further apart at the end? 127 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:39,480 Stu: Right? And that's a simple way into thinking about it. And so, 128 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,780 Stu: coming back to what you were saying about tactics, and I'm going to quote your 129 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:46,920 Stu: own article on this, which is subtext is not the goal, right? 130 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:48,980 Stu: It's a byproduct of other goals. 131 00:08:49,140 --> 00:08:54,360 Stu: And I think sometimes the emphasis on thinking too much about the subtext is 132 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,740 Stu: it feels artificial because it's not what the characters are doing. 133 00:08:56,780 --> 00:08:59,660 Stu: And so, when you're thinking about it from what are the characters doing, 134 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,240 Stu: subtext is going to emerge because, as you say, it's the result of the subtext, 135 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,500 Stu: how they're trying to get what they want, right? 136 00:09:05,620 --> 00:09:05,780 Tom: Yeah. 137 00:09:05,780 --> 00:09:09,360 Stu: But I want to connect it to what Chaz has kind of said earlier, 138 00:09:09,660 --> 00:09:11,540 Stu: and he actually said it off mic. 139 00:09:11,620 --> 00:09:12,940 Chas: Oh, you're going to steal my observation. 140 00:09:14,020 --> 00:09:17,380 Stu: That there's the subtext that the characters are in control of, 141 00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:21,220 Stu: which is tactics, and the subtext that the filmmakers are in control of. 142 00:09:21,380 --> 00:09:27,300 Stu: And then I've got irony and dramatic questions and kind of emotional events 143 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:31,140 Stu: as kind of the tools that the writers are in control of. 144 00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:37,280 Stu: I mean, in some ways, the emotional event is the result of characters seeking what they 145 00:09:37,690 --> 00:09:41,950 Stu: what they want. But I think the idea of how you dramatize that is something 146 00:09:41,950 --> 00:09:43,550 Stu: that the writers can put on the page. 147 00:09:43,690 --> 00:09:47,730 Stu: And I think what's important about, and we'll see if it bears true, 148 00:09:47,930 --> 00:09:55,610 Stu: the importance of tactics is that should be on the page, on the actual screen play page. 149 00:09:55,770 --> 00:09:58,970 Stu: And I think irony is built structurally. 150 00:09:59,190 --> 00:10:01,990 Stu: And so as much as we're talking about these small scenes and 151 00:10:01,990 --> 00:10:07,810 Stu: it's the Michael Clayton it's the scene when Karen is kind of basically asking 152 00:10:07,810 --> 00:10:13,970 Stu: for a hit to be taken out in glorious bastards it's when so Santa is confronted 153 00:10:13,970 --> 00:10:18,730 Stu: with the killer of her family and we and her are trying to work out if he knows 154 00:10:18,730 --> 00:10:21,930 Stu: who she is and the substance substance well, 155 00:10:22,610 --> 00:10:28,550 Stu: it's when we she turns into a giant gooey monster you know but there is interesting 156 00:10:28,550 --> 00:10:31,010 Stu: thing in that Because I think that's more, I think we're going to leave that 157 00:10:31,010 --> 00:10:35,470 Stu: at the end, because I think that's more about the filmmakers trying to communicate something else. 158 00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:39,990 Stu: And so that is shifting subtext into this idea of maybe symbolism or theme. 159 00:10:40,150 --> 00:10:40,330 Tom: Yeah. 160 00:10:40,390 --> 00:10:42,470 Stu: These other ways that people think about subtext. 161 00:10:42,930 --> 00:10:46,870 Tom: Because when you said it, Chaz, when you said it off camera and then Stu stole 162 00:10:46,870 --> 00:10:51,770 Tom: your thunder, I immediately went, oh, yes, that's absolutely right. 163 00:10:52,170 --> 00:10:57,370 Tom: And now that I think about it, I go, is it? Wait, what did you mean? Like what? 164 00:10:57,970 --> 00:11:01,830 Tom: And like now it's one of those things of like a light bulb went off and then 165 00:11:01,830 --> 00:11:04,810 Tom: it's just slowly, okay, I'm going to need you to explain this now. 166 00:11:06,050 --> 00:11:11,550 Tom: Like give me an example of subtext. I will say things, I just had this little 167 00:11:11,550 --> 00:11:14,470 Tom: moment because I will say things in social media and I will say things that 168 00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:18,850 Tom: I've thought about and I will state and then someone will immediately say, hey, give me an example. 169 00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:24,310 Tom: And I get angry. Like I just did some work. You can do a little bit of work in this conversation. 170 00:11:24,930 --> 00:11:29,890 Tom: You know it could be a back and forth uh so i just caught myself going give 171 00:11:29,890 --> 00:11:31,130 Tom: me an example of what you mean. 172 00:11:31,130 --> 00:11:34,410 Chas: Well i this might be a good segue to uh 173 00:11:34,410 --> 00:11:37,530 Chas: to go into these actual examples but 174 00:11:37,530 --> 00:11:41,550 Chas: i'm going to bury the lead michael clayton is a really clear example of both 175 00:11:41,550 --> 00:11:46,010 Chas: characters are talking around something they are very deliberately choosing 176 00:11:46,010 --> 00:11:50,490 Chas: what to say and what not to say yes and the subtext is between the two of them 177 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:54,970 Chas: it's understood between the two of them and it's understood by the audience as well, right? 178 00:11:55,230 --> 00:12:00,150 Chas: In Inglourious Bastards, we are not clear on what the characters, 179 00:12:00,450 --> 00:12:06,530 Chas: we're very clear on what Shoshana knows, we are not clear on what Landa knows, 180 00:12:06,770 --> 00:12:12,870 Chas: and to me it's very much all the text of that scene is them literally talking 181 00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:16,810 Chas: about Strudel, and the subtext of it is... 182 00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:22,660 Chas: For the audience. And it's also for Shoshana in terms of her trying very hard 183 00:12:22,660 --> 00:12:26,700 Chas: not to say something, but we're really not sure where Lander sits. 184 00:12:26,780 --> 00:12:30,020 Chas: And that's where the drama and the tension of the scene comes from. 185 00:12:30,140 --> 00:12:33,540 Chas: And then I think when we'll get to the substance, you said off mic, 186 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:35,100 Chas: I don't think there's text. 187 00:12:37,420 --> 00:12:44,440 Chas: The endings of the substance, the text is don't take unknown substances. 188 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,760 Chas: And if you happen to turn yourself into a hideous monster 189 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,880 Chas: don't then go and host a new 190 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,940 Chas: year's televised live event that's what the text is 191 00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:57,100 Chas: saying right but the subtext is 192 00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:02,100 Chas: really screaming at you that it's about beauty standards and what we're prepared 193 00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:07,340 Chas: to go through and we'll get into that more but that's sue and elizabeth in the 194 00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:13,660 Chas: substance are not aware of the subtext that is being screamed at us right by 195 00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:16,580 Chas: the film by the text by the filmmakers okay. 196 00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:23,600 Tom: Okay all right uh i see what you're saying i i i would definitely i like this 197 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:30,540 Tom: way of thinking but i i can certainly say like i wonder if we're just robbing theme and tension. 198 00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:31,360 Chas: From their. 199 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,960 Tom: Own definitions and calling it subtext probably. 200 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:40,040 Chas: Well i was just because i was going into this like broad thing like what is 201 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,520 Chas: the text underneath the literal meaning of the scene in front of us. 202 00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:48,460 Chas: And it could be that for, when you look at it from a character perspective in 203 00:13:48,460 --> 00:13:50,060 Chas: the substance, there is no subtext. 204 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,700 Chas: They are doing exactly and saying exactly what they mean and want. 205 00:13:55,060 --> 00:13:59,540 Chas: There's zero subtext from a character perspective. I think there is a lot of 206 00:13:59,540 --> 00:14:04,900 Chas: theme and a lot of tension coming through that has nothing to do with the characters. 207 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,440 Chas: So, I mean, that's why for my, you might be right, maybe using the subtext is 208 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:13,220 Chas: the wrong word. And certainly talking about subtext in just a character context 209 00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:15,080 Chas: is going to make better scenes. 210 00:14:15,220 --> 00:14:20,500 Chas: So maybe from a craft perspective, we could limit it that way. 211 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:24,760 Tom: Yeah, because when you did say it, and I immediately thought of Inglourious 212 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:30,120 Tom: Bastards, because the narrative in our head is different from both of their heads. 213 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:30,640 Chas: Yes. 214 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,000 Tom: And so that's kind of what I clued in with what you were saying. 215 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,520 Tom: It's like, okay, is that what he means by that? Because we have a very different 216 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,160 Tom: set of what is going on than each character does. 217 00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:48,120 Chas: Yeah, exactly. And look, ultimately, it could be that we're talking about narrative 218 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,220 Chas: point of view here in terms of what does the audience know with respect of the characters. 219 00:14:52,540 --> 00:14:56,340 Chas: So in Michael Clayton, both characters and the audience all know exactly the 220 00:14:56,340 --> 00:14:57,360 Chas: same amount of information. 221 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,120 Chas: Whereas we'll get to the big print of Inglourious Bastards. Sorry, 222 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,640 Chas: we call Action Lines big print here in Australia. 223 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,100 Tom: Oh, I did not know that. 224 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:08,700 Chas: We get a lot of listeners going, what is this big print that they're talking about? 225 00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:16,360 Chas: But the action lines in the script of Inglourious Basterds, and we'll get into the nitty gritty of it, 226 00:15:16,910 --> 00:15:22,390 Chas: They are reinforcing the narrative irony all the time. 227 00:15:22,930 --> 00:15:25,590 Chas: It's like hitting us over the head. This is what you, the audience, 228 00:15:25,850 --> 00:15:32,370 Chas: know that Landa may or may not know, but that Shoshana very much knows. 229 00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:32,710 Tom: Yeah. 230 00:15:32,950 --> 00:15:37,030 Stu: So, just to unpick at this idea a little bit, because I think it will be useful. 231 00:15:37,050 --> 00:15:39,910 Stu: I've had the advantage that I've had time to think while Chaz talks. 232 00:15:41,510 --> 00:15:43,930 Chas: And not listen to me. And Iota. 233 00:15:45,470 --> 00:15:50,190 Stu: No, because you asked for an example about the separation between subtext for 234 00:15:50,190 --> 00:15:54,610 Stu: the audience and subtext for the characters, and why don't we just call it theme? 235 00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:58,770 Stu: And I just think there is this line between moving from character into theme, 236 00:15:58,830 --> 00:16:02,170 Stu: and I think it's how divorced we are maybe from the experience. 237 00:16:02,350 --> 00:16:07,370 Stu: As you were saying, Tom, it's about the story in your head and the story for the characters. 238 00:16:07,370 --> 00:16:13,530 Stu: And an example of something which kind of leans more into the subtext from the 239 00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:18,010 Stu: filmmakers, I think, is the zone of interest, right, which has got this very 240 00:16:18,010 --> 00:16:20,650 Stu: interesting effect between here are these characters. 241 00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:22,910 Stu: And it's a World War II movie, for those who haven't seen it, 242 00:16:23,010 --> 00:16:27,070 Stu: about the people that built the concentration camps, Auschwitz in particular, 243 00:16:27,290 --> 00:16:32,350 Stu: and we're seeing their ordinary lives that we never see over the wall, etc. 244 00:16:32,350 --> 00:16:35,650 Stu: So, there's this tension between what the characters are trying to do, 245 00:16:35,770 --> 00:16:41,190 Stu: the ordinariness of what they're doing, and our understanding of the larger 246 00:16:41,190 --> 00:16:44,510 Stu: story, and the tension between that. 247 00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:49,750 Stu: So, how the film is being told to us, for me, kind of has a subtextual element 248 00:16:49,750 --> 00:16:54,790 Stu: that is obviously thematic, but sits somewhat more closer to the kind of stuff 249 00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:56,190 Stu: that we're talking about. 250 00:16:56,310 --> 00:17:00,710 Stu: It's almost like the tactics of the storyteller, as opposed to the tactics of the character. 251 00:17:00,890 --> 00:17:01,170 Tom: Right. 252 00:17:01,830 --> 00:17:05,650 Stu: Might be a way of thinking about it. And you could just call it, 253 00:17:05,790 --> 00:17:07,070 Stu: as you say, theme and meaning. 254 00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:10,550 Stu: And there is obviously something very useful about that. But... 255 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,160 Stu: Not everyone's going to be as precise as their terminology as us, 256 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,180 Stu: and you may be in a development meeting where someone goes, oh, 257 00:17:17,260 --> 00:17:20,800 Stu: we need to work on the subtext here, and what they're actually talking about 258 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:26,640 Stu: is how the audience interprets the meaning of your story as opposed to talking 259 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,220 Stu: about the dramatic events within this scene. 260 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:29,660 Tom: Sure. 261 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,620 Stu: So, I'm not saying we're going to be able to cover both fully, 262 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,880 Stu: but I think The Substance does do some good stuff on the page that helps you 263 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,480 Stu: understand what it's trying to say. 264 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,840 Stu: And I think the Inglourious Bastards does some good writing on the page as well 265 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,400 Stu: that helps us understand that story in our heads. 266 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,220 Stu: So I think that to me is actually a really great way of thinking about it. 267 00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:54,140 Stu: The irony requires us to have the story for the characters and the story in 268 00:17:54,140 --> 00:18:02,420 Stu: us as the audience and being aware of them both may help that stuff work. 269 00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:09,620 Tom: Yeah, it's a great example, a zone of interest of us having a view of it 50, 270 00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:16,340 Tom: 60 years later when we know, gosh, it's 80 years later, of what that is. 271 00:18:16,620 --> 00:18:19,780 Tom: And then, you know, some of those tales that tell their structure backwards 272 00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:25,160 Tom: also have that same thing where we know the ending of this and the characters do not. 273 00:18:25,380 --> 00:18:30,240 Tom: And then, of course, there's no greater example of that than the ultimate filmmaker 274 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,340 Tom: subtext film of Planet of the Apes. 275 00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:33,720 Stu: Yeah. 276 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:39,380 Tom: Where they end it. They don't know what happened It was earth the whole time 277 00:18:39,380 --> 00:18:44,040 Tom: I don't know if you guys do that Earth the whole time Not. 278 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,940 Chas: In the Tim Burton 90's version. 279 00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:52,840 Tom: No subtext in that movie Zero subtext in the Burton film It. 280 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:58,700 Chas: Was like plot twist Alright Well let's dive into the Examples. 281 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:06,340 Excerpts: Michael thank god Look I got a situation Arthur Edens just stripped down naked 282 00:19:06,340 --> 00:19:08,300 Excerpts: in a deposition room in Milwaukee. 283 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,080 Excerpts: You are the senior litigating partner of one of the largest, 284 00:19:12,220 --> 00:19:14,260 Excerpts: most respected law firms in the world. 285 00:19:14,380 --> 00:19:17,320 Excerpts: You are a legend. I'm an accomplice. You're a manic depressive. 286 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:20,400 Excerpts: I am Shiva, the god of death. 287 00:19:23,020 --> 00:19:27,620 Excerpts: I'm Michael Clayton. You're late. This is a $3 billion class action lawsuit. 288 00:19:28,020 --> 00:19:32,640 Excerpts: The architect of our defense has been arrested for running naked through a parking lot. 289 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:36,360 Excerpts: He's building the case against you, North. Nobody's going to let him do that. 290 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,220 Excerpts: Let him? Who the hell's going to stop him? 291 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,440 Excerpts: I spent 12% of my life defending the reputation of a deadly weed killer. 292 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,160 Excerpts: Arthur. No way! They killed the Michael. 293 00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:48,360 Excerpts: You, North, need to know he's under control. They've been shook up. 294 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,420 Excerpts: They need to be reassured. 295 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,920 Excerpts: What are you telling me? That I'm counting on you. You're not going to say... 296 00:19:55,140 --> 00:20:01,960 Excerpts: Just that it was something that would win the whole case. I'm not the enemy. Then who are you? 297 00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:06,380 Chas: Michael Clayton is a legal thriller about the titular character. 298 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,160 Chas: Michael Clayton, he's a fixer of a big New York law firm. 299 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:14,300 Chas: He's played by George Clooney. The law firm's biggest case is a class action 300 00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:20,260 Chas: lawsuit with a company called U-North that make a weed killer. 301 00:20:20,660 --> 00:20:23,420 Stu: The weed killer kills more than weeds. 302 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:23,720 Chas: Yes. 303 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,300 Stu: It's kind of the key thing. 304 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:33,540 Chas: Yeah. The lead litigator for the law firm that Michael Clayton works for has 305 00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:35,880 Chas: decided to defect to the other side. 306 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,380 Chas: He's learned so much about U-North and has had a crisis of conscience that he's 307 00:20:40,380 --> 00:20:45,000 Chas: actually going to release to the world just how evil and terrible U-North is. 308 00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:49,980 Stu: Yeah, he's found a document, an internal document. This scene's actually about 309 00:20:49,980 --> 00:20:55,100 Stu: Arthur, not Michael Clayton himself. It's about Arthur played by the late, great Tom Wilkinson. 310 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:01,440 Stu: He has discovered the smoking gun, effectively, of the document where you North 311 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:07,940 Stu: knew their weed killer killed people and they decided to not do anything about it. 312 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,780 Stu: And they've been surveilling him. You North have been surveilling him. 313 00:21:11,780 --> 00:21:18,660 Chas: Yeah. And so, I mean, we discussed at length in the previous episode about how 314 00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:23,100 Chas: Tony Gilroy is a humanist and just sees so much, 315 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:27,540 Chas: even in his quote unquote villains or evil people, he loves bringing out their humanity. 316 00:21:27,540 --> 00:21:32,300 Chas: And this scene is actually about the general counsel of U-North, 317 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:40,140 Chas: Karen, played by Tilda Swinton, and the man that she has hired, the leader of the team, 318 00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:42,760 Chas: Verne, to surveil Arthur. 319 00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:46,280 Chas: So, that's the context of the scene that we're coming into. 320 00:21:46,580 --> 00:21:49,360 Stu: Maybe we should listen to the scene. It is short. 321 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:49,700 Chas: Yeah. 322 00:21:53,150 --> 00:21:54,510 Excerpts: It seemed to warrant my company. 323 00:21:57,130 --> 00:22:04,590 Excerpts: You have to contain this. Contain? Right. Well, that's my question. 324 00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:11,710 Excerpts: What are the... What's the option that we're looking at along those lines? 325 00:22:12,690 --> 00:22:14,750 Excerpts: You're talking about the paper, the data? 326 00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:22,830 Excerpts: Well, I'm wondering if there is some other option. I mean, something I'm not thinking of. 327 00:22:23,870 --> 00:22:28,170 Excerpts: We deal in absolutes. Okay. I understand that. I do. 328 00:22:28,910 --> 00:22:35,650 Excerpts: In the material of the papers, I'm not a lawyer. We try. We do what we can. The other way? 329 00:22:38,530 --> 00:22:39,570 Excerpts: It is the other way. 330 00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:47,530 Excerpts: Maybe you want to bring Don in on this. No, this has nothing to do with Don. 331 00:22:47,670 --> 00:22:49,790 Excerpts: He's busy. This has nothing to do with Don. 332 00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:58,350 Excerpts: Do you think it's doable? 333 00:23:00,770 --> 00:23:05,830 Excerpts: Yeah, we have some good ideas. You say move, we move. The ideas don't look so 334 00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:07,850 Excerpts: good, we back off, reassess. Okay. 335 00:23:12,570 --> 00:23:15,390 Excerpts: Is that okay? You understand her okay? 336 00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:22,430 Chas: So, Tom, why did you choose this scene? Why is this your example? 337 00:23:22,770 --> 00:23:25,110 Tom: Primarily because it's full of subtext. 338 00:23:25,630 --> 00:23:26,230 Chas: Yeah. 339 00:23:27,790 --> 00:23:34,930 Tom: To me, this is the quintessential example of what we think of as subtext, 340 00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:42,830 Tom: where they are talking around a topic, and it goes to what I tend to think of. 341 00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:47,670 Tom: They have a tactic. She has to pretend she's not talking about what she's talking. 342 00:23:47,670 --> 00:23:53,810 Tom: And he has to pretend that she's talking about something else when they both 343 00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:55,350 Tom: know what they're talking about. 344 00:23:55,870 --> 00:24:01,410 Tom: And she's like, one of the lines that I love about something I haven't thought about, 345 00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:08,050 Tom: you know, like such a great, like pretending that she's not the one offering, 346 00:24:08,050 --> 00:24:12,830 Tom: I'm not initiating this conversation, but she absolutely is. 347 00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:20,650 Tom: And so, to me, it is, I want the option of, are we going to kill Arthur or not? 348 00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:24,070 Tom: And I want that on the table because all the other options are not acceptable. 349 00:24:24,290 --> 00:24:29,430 Tom: But the tactics are, is I'm not willing to admit that I'm initiating the conversation, 350 00:24:30,090 --> 00:24:32,490 Tom: just in case I'm being recorded. 351 00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:39,750 Tom: I have the same, like, my emails are full of subtext because I write every email 352 00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:41,970 Tom: with the assumption it will be made public. 353 00:24:41,970 --> 00:24:42,870 Chas: Probably sensible. 354 00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:46,050 Tom: Yeah. Like, I have no idea where this is going to be. 355 00:24:46,290 --> 00:24:51,150 Tom: So, like, I may get vicious emails from directors and stuff. 356 00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:57,350 Tom: And my reply is always, well, I'm just going to assume the producer is going to read this email. 357 00:24:57,770 --> 00:25:01,310 Tom: So, this is what she's doing. 358 00:25:01,310 --> 00:25:10,390 Tom: Now, a good question about subtext is, is she preparing herself so she can convince 359 00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:13,770 Tom: herself later she didn't do it? She didn't make this choice. 360 00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:16,610 Tom: And I think that's another layer of... 361 00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:22,900 Tom: Of subtext that we don't often think about. I just said we, I don't often think about or discuss. 362 00:25:23,220 --> 00:25:28,220 Tom: But I know, like, I can convince myself of a lot of things. And I can certainly 363 00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:31,040 Tom: convince myself of the righteousness of decisions. 364 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:40,040 Tom: And I know, I am sure I've got stories of bad decisions that I have done that 365 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,560 Tom: I have mentally scrubbed over the years. 366 00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:48,220 Tom: Where it was, well, I had to do that, or I didn't mean that or that was an accident 367 00:25:48,220 --> 00:25:49,680 Tom: when it really wasn't an accident. 368 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:56,180 Tom: And we can convince ourselves of these things. And so like I'm curious of here 369 00:25:56,180 --> 00:26:04,080 Tom: of is this just as much for herself to deny that she initiated the idea? 370 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:09,320 Tom: Even though in this moment it is purely like she's conscious of it, she's very aware of it. 371 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,820 Stu: I think so, yes. I mean, I think it's an interpretation but I think part of what makes this scene, 372 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:18,840 Stu: fun and it's a fun scene is 373 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,700 Stu: because you've got this thing of they have to they're talking around 374 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:25,060 Stu: this issue but they actually need a uh a clear 375 00:26:25,060 --> 00:26:29,340 Stu: understanding of what like how to do it so it's how do you talk around about 376 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:33,420 Stu: what we is but make sure we're on the same page because there's no walking this 377 00:26:33,420 --> 00:26:39,460 Stu: back you know and it ends with verne the uh the corporate spy i guess saying 378 00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:42,620 Stu: you know you mean okay you understand or okay proceed yeah. 379 00:26:42,620 --> 00:26:44,140 Tom: It's great great line. 380 00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:46,960 Stu: But i think that's what makes the scene fun because they've got the tactics 381 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,420 Stu: but kind of the obstacle is them the fact that they have to talk around it so 382 00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:52,840 Stu: they're talking around this issue 383 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280 Stu: and their obstacle is they're actually talking around this issue yeah. 384 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:56,480 Chas: The. 385 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,440 Tom: Subtext is the. 386 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:57,840 Chas: Problem. 387 00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:05,000 Chas: But okay so there is very clear subtext they are not talking about putting a 388 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,800 Chas: hit out on Arthur in the words that they're saying. So, that's the subtext. 389 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,720 Chas: They are arranging and discussing and workshopping, putting a hit out on a human 390 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,140 Chas: being without talking about that at all. So, there's text and subtext. 391 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,520 Chas: However, the text... 392 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,420 Chas: Is not something else entirely, which is what we have in the Inglorious Bastard 393 00:27:26,420 --> 00:27:31,520 Chas: scene where they're talking about arranging a cinema and talking about Strudel. 394 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,620 Chas: They're not talking about anything else here. They're just trying very hard 395 00:27:35,620 --> 00:27:38,480 Chas: not to talk about the subtext. 396 00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:44,960 Chas: And I think, Tom, where you're coming from in terms of the character's internal drama about, 397 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,920 Chas: is she avoiding talking about this, not just in case she's being recorded, 398 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,200 Chas: but is she avoiding talking about this because she internally does 399 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,340 Chas: not want to be as a person responsible for murdering another 400 00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:59,480 Chas: person i think is very deliberately structured 401 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,320 Chas: by tony gilroy by how we leave the 402 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,600 Chas: scene because like you've you've just pointed out she 403 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:11,640 Chas: says okay and verne comes back saying you mean okay you understand or okay proceed 404 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:17,580 Chas: yeah yeah and then she doesn't answer the question and the action line that 405 00:28:17,580 --> 00:28:24,900 Chas: Tony Gilroy has written that we leave the scene on is Vern nods full stop, but hanging full stop. 406 00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:27,080 Chas: Where are they? Question mark. 407 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,860 Chas: Still waiting for an answer as dash, dash, we cut out of the scene. 408 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,320 Chas: So he is very deliberately left us as the audience. 409 00:28:37,420 --> 00:28:41,540 Chas: And he's telling us as the reader that he's leaving us going, 410 00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:48,440 Chas: she has not confirmed in words that she is going to be responsible for the murder of a person. 411 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,120 Tom: It's not in the movie but i'd be 412 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:59,160 Tom: very curious if gilroy would write the sequel to this scene where verne says 413 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:05,780 Tom: she told me to do it and what would her reaction be like what what would like 414 00:29:05,780 --> 00:29:10,120 Tom: what would she say like like what would like i didn't tell you to do it we. 415 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,760 Chas: Were we were discussing stealing the document. 416 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,620 Tom: Yeah it's like my god man i was yeah my god what do you what were you thinking 417 00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:20,880 Tom: but you told me no i did not yeah. 418 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,160 Stu: Yeah because it's it's in the response to and and 419 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,200 Stu: it's in parent the use of parentheticals throughout this 420 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,840 Stu: script and in this scene is so fantastic you know you mean okay you understand 421 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,600 Stu: or okay proceed parenthetical silence and then vern saying maybe you want to 422 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:41,340 Stu: bring don in on it so she doesn't respond the silence she's made he's he's feeling 423 00:29:41,340 --> 00:29:46,900 Stu: the silence and he we get his interpretation of what that silence means immediately, 424 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,400 Stu: which is maybe we need to talk to Don about this, 425 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,980 Stu: right? So obviously you're meaning you want to continue. 426 00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:59,840 Tom: He's got such clear beats in his scene. He's such clear what emotion causes 427 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,040 Tom: and creates the next beat. 428 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,320 Tom: He's as good as they come with that. 429 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,000 Stu: Oh yeah, Tony Gilroy. I thought you meant Vern, but you actually meant Gilroy. 430 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,780 Tom: Speaking of subtext. 431 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,100 Stu: But I mean, I think the structure of the scene, speaking of that, 432 00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:17,740 Stu: is really interesting, right? So we start with them listening to... 433 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:23,100 Stu: Arthur. Vern's like, you know, I wanted this to bring this to your attention. 434 00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:28,100 Stu: He wants her to give him some instructions or directions, right? 435 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:34,540 Stu: And she's like, yes. And the big print just emphasizes the awkwardness of this, 436 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,900 Stu: an awkward beat, people, cars, life going by, right? 437 00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:41,600 Stu: And then Karen is like, asks him to contain it. 438 00:30:41,740 --> 00:30:46,460 Stu: And so the first kind of, the first third, I guess, The beginning of the scene 439 00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:47,740 Stu: is them listening to Arthur. 440 00:30:47,940 --> 00:30:54,900 Stu: The second little section, the second beat of this is Karen trying to get Verne 441 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:56,880 Stu: to realize what she's asking. 442 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:57,720 Chas: Right. 443 00:30:58,260 --> 00:31:03,480 Stu: And then when he understands it, what he's asking, he's, he's seeking confirmation. 444 00:31:03,780 --> 00:31:07,640 Stu: Right. And then that last little beat is him seeking confirmation of, 445 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,680 Stu: do I understand you correctly? 446 00:31:09,940 --> 00:31:13,340 Stu: That's kind of like, to me, how I interpret the structure of the scene. 447 00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:18,060 Stu: The midpoint is, I mean, I'm using the terms loosely, but it's like, 448 00:31:18,140 --> 00:31:22,440 Stu: to me, the midpoint of the scene where the scene hangs is when Karen says, 449 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,520 Stu: and the other way, and Vern says, is the other way. 450 00:31:25,660 --> 00:31:29,640 Stu: And it emphasizes the heaviness of this, because in the big print, 451 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,260 Stu: there's not much action lines or big print in this scene. 452 00:31:33,380 --> 00:31:36,760 Stu: But after he says, is the other way, the big print is heavy pause, 453 00:31:37,020 --> 00:31:43,520 Stu: life passing all around them. And I like that the script slows down for a moment, right? 454 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,980 Stu: It could just use the word beat or put it in parenthetical, but they want to 455 00:31:47,980 --> 00:31:53,280 Stu: put you in the action line because they want you as the reader to sit with the implication of it. 456 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:53,920 Tom: Right? 457 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,880 Stu: So, it's a great bit of writing because this is like the storyteller subtext, right? 458 00:31:59,660 --> 00:32:04,500 Stu: They're using that tool to make sure we understand what she's got into it. 459 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,580 Stu: So, we kind of catch up to Vern. I mean, I've seen this film a few times now, 460 00:32:08,660 --> 00:32:11,260 Stu: so it's hard to know what that first time experience was. 461 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:17,100 Stu: But my memory is you're probably experiencing this scene more with Verne, right? 462 00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:19,800 Stu: You're coming in, he's giving it to her. 463 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,740 Stu: You're kind of catching up to what she is saying with Verne. 464 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,000 Stu: And then you're like, oh, okay, this is what you're asking for. 465 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:28,960 Stu: And I think that line kind of does that. 466 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,300 Chas: Definitely. I mean, I love, because you're right, as they're starting to talk- 467 00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:38,650 Chas: She's trying to ask Vern, can you kill Arthur? 468 00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:43,470 Chas: And Vern thinks initially that she's talking about the report because she's 469 00:32:43,470 --> 00:32:47,470 Chas: saying, you know, you have to contain this. He responds, contain. 470 00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:52,430 Chas: She says, right, that's my question. Having not asked a question at all, I do enjoy that. 471 00:32:54,190 --> 00:32:59,210 Chas: Short of whatever else, something more, what's the option for something along 472 00:32:59,210 --> 00:33:01,690 Chas: those lines? That is just like word salad. 473 00:33:01,910 --> 00:33:05,010 Chas: That means absolutely nothing. thing and burn 474 00:33:05,010 --> 00:33:08,590 Chas: responds you're talking about the paper the data and 475 00:33:08,590 --> 00:33:11,950 Chas: so she's she's got to keep word salading 476 00:33:11,950 --> 00:33:15,330 Chas: at him until he understands and you 477 00:33:15,330 --> 00:33:18,030 Chas: know you're talking about parenthetical stew the next one is one of 478 00:33:18,030 --> 00:33:21,170 Chas: the best parentheticals i've ever read karen says that there's 479 00:33:21,170 --> 00:33:24,930 Chas: a more limited option is what i'm asking and then in parentheticals it says 480 00:33:24,930 --> 00:33:30,590 Chas: cold sweat fumbling something i'm not thinking of and like tom you you brought 481 00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:34,690 Chas: up that line before because it's like i want i'm trying to tell you something 482 00:33:34,690 --> 00:33:38,330 Chas: and i'm trying to tell you that i'm not thinking about it at all and. 483 00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:42,050 Stu: Then i love that verne says we deal in absolutes which is like stop with your 484 00:33:42,050 --> 00:33:47,890 Stu: word salad but again that creates the the subtext of the scene is. 485 00:33:47,890 --> 00:33:48,590 Chas: That he. 486 00:33:48,590 --> 00:33:53,910 Stu: Is probably want something more explicit right and i think he is growing frustrated with her. 487 00:33:53,910 --> 00:33:57,150 Chas: Yeah and that's why he asked whether she should bring don in like well. 488 00:33:57,150 --> 00:33:59,690 Tom: It's it's like she's trying to inception him or. 489 00:33:59,690 --> 00:34:01,810 Chas: Something you. 490 00:34:01,810 --> 00:34:02,350 Stu: Know. 491 00:34:02,350 --> 00:34:04,310 Tom: Something i'm not thinking of. 492 00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:10,050 Stu: Yeah so it's his idea as you say it's like her i mean maybe that's part of the subtext of the. 493 00:34:10,050 --> 00:34:10,910 Chas: Scene the tactics. 494 00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:16,450 Stu: Is she wants him he she's trying to incept him so it's his idea and he knows 495 00:34:16,450 --> 00:34:22,330 Stu: that that's what she is trying to do yeah so he wants her to be explicit but he also works for her. 496 00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:29,290 Tom: And also that moment down there and end the other way is the other way. They've done it before. 497 00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:30,530 Chas: Yeah. 498 00:34:30,730 --> 00:34:36,290 Tom: They've done it before. Maybe not together, but Vern has. She hasn't, but Vern has. 499 00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:42,770 Tom: Because end the other way is the other way. That's not someone who's never had to make this choice. 500 00:34:43,410 --> 00:34:47,910 Stu: And how much you get from that one line to read into that. I mean, this is just. 501 00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:48,090 Tom: Yeah. 502 00:34:48,090 --> 00:34:53,050 Chas: And clearly Don has previously instructed him to make this choice in the past. 503 00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:57,410 Chas: He's like, maybe we should bring in the guy who will just tell me a yes or no answer on the murder. 504 00:34:58,330 --> 00:34:59,130 Tom: Oh, yeah. 505 00:34:59,630 --> 00:35:00,050 Chas: Yeah. 506 00:35:00,610 --> 00:35:06,750 Tom: He's busy. He's very busy. He cannot. He's too busy to order a hit. 507 00:35:07,730 --> 00:35:08,170 Stu: Yeah, yeah. 508 00:35:08,650 --> 00:35:11,350 Chas: And scene is a total of like a page and a. 509 00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:17,130 Chas: Quarter, maybe a page and a third, and that it has three such clear movements 510 00:35:17,130 --> 00:35:22,870 Chas: in it that are so dramatically powerful, without them at any point ever saying 511 00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:24,350 Chas: what they truly mean is incredible. 512 00:35:24,510 --> 00:35:24,650 Tom: Yeah. 513 00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:31,450 Stu: And coming back to subtext as a result, we had to lay a bunch of groundwork 514 00:35:31,450 --> 00:35:37,230 Stu: about what the story was, Arthur, the implications of this information, right? 515 00:35:37,230 --> 00:35:42,390 Stu: So when we come into this scene, right, the audience is able to put together 516 00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:47,030 Stu: the pieces of what she is asking for, because we actually understand what's 517 00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:49,830 Stu: at stake for her as well, right? 518 00:35:50,010 --> 00:35:50,150 Chas: Yeah. 519 00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:55,650 Stu: And we kind of understand, we've already seen Vern and his kind of like ruthless efficiency. 520 00:35:56,190 --> 00:35:59,790 Stu: He's the kind of guy where the other way is the other way, right? 521 00:35:59,790 --> 00:36:05,770 Stu: And we've seen all that. So, this scene can have these characters talking around 522 00:36:05,770 --> 00:36:11,930 Stu: each other and we fully understand what it is, what they're asking. And it's interesting. 523 00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:16,850 Stu: It's such a weird way to talk about it. But when we edited the previous episode, 524 00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:20,670 Stu: we played the trailer for the movies or sections of the trailer as a way of 525 00:36:20,670 --> 00:36:23,190 Stu: introducing them. And I watched a bunch of trailers for Michael Clayton. 526 00:36:23,290 --> 00:36:26,270 Stu: And even though this is a scene that everyone remembers from the film, 527 00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:29,890 Stu: it's not in the trailer. Because I don't think if you have the information, 528 00:36:30,290 --> 00:36:33,430 Stu: you wouldn't know what they're talking about. 529 00:36:33,590 --> 00:36:40,930 Stu: You need the information beforehand to understand the power of those words. 530 00:36:41,710 --> 00:36:47,150 Tom: And it might very well be why subtext is essentially dead in movies, is because... 531 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,700 Tom: You just can't get a trailer full of subtext. 532 00:36:50,620 --> 00:36:51,060 Chas: No. 533 00:36:51,460 --> 00:36:53,320 Tom: You can't market subtext, man. 534 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,440 Stu: You have to market it by saying it's overrated. And then hopefully people read 535 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,020 Stu: your newsletter and listen to a podcast on it. 536 00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:03,180 Tom: Every line is literal. 537 00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:03,740 Stu: Yes. 538 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:04,540 Tom: Coming this summer. 539 00:37:04,980 --> 00:37:08,540 Stu: I mean, Chaz ended up reading. I did my usual thing. 540 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,480 Stu: I send Chaz an article and then the knowledge that he'll read it and then summarize it for me, 541 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,380 Stu: which is there was the article on the new literalism, talking about the substance 542 00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:24,000 Stu: and this trend to have an absence of subtext in modern movies. 543 00:37:24,140 --> 00:37:25,200 Tom: Oh, that's interesting. 544 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,340 Stu: Yeah, yeah. We'll get to that in the substance. Yeah. 545 00:37:30,020 --> 00:37:33,960 Chas: Because that was one of the examples the writer was calling out. 546 00:37:34,140 --> 00:37:41,160 Tom: I just want to note that Stu sent Chaz an article about how the substance has 547 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,760 Tom: no subtext. And Chaz responded with, I want to talk about the subtext in the substance. 548 00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:54,740 Tom: This is a direct FU to either you or the writer of this article. 549 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,180 Tom: And I don't know which one. 550 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,660 Chas: But this scene is as fabulous as it is. 551 00:38:03,540 --> 00:38:09,060 Chas: Because to Stu's point, the work that's gone in leading up to the scene is that 552 00:38:09,060 --> 00:38:11,180 Chas: we all have the same amount of information. 553 00:38:11,180 --> 00:38:14,660 Chas: The audience and both characters uh karen 554 00:38:14,660 --> 00:38:17,700 Chas: comes into the scene catching up to us yeah but 555 00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:20,920 Chas: verne and us as the audience we know 556 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,960 Chas: what arthur's plan is and karen learns that information at the very beginning 557 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:31,100 Chas: of the scene she's hearing the recording that they have so that's the the pre-work 558 00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:37,540 Chas: that has gone into a scene like this is putting all all of us on the same like 559 00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:40,260 Chas: orienting us as an audience And then Tom, 560 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,140 Chas: your, your description of their tactics is like how the tactics can be summarized 561 00:38:45,140 --> 00:38:46,320 Chas: so simply, but it's so beautiful. 562 00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:50,860 Chas: It's like, how can you have a meeting which needs a decision when no one in 563 00:38:50,860 --> 00:38:57,460 Chas: the meeting can actually talk about what the decision has to be or how it can be brought about? 564 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,980 Tom: Yeah. Everyone wants everyone else to make the decision of the thing that they can't even talk about. 565 00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:02,260 Chas: Yeah. 566 00:39:02,580 --> 00:39:03,880 Stu: Sounds like every meeting in front. 567 00:39:07,220 --> 00:39:12,200 Chas: But but sublime just because and it's just because of those to your point tom 568 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,820 Chas: i don't think tony gilroy sat 569 00:39:13,820 --> 00:39:19,200 Chas: down and said i'm gonna write the the best subtext ever yeah this scene, 570 00:39:19,820 --> 00:39:26,780 Chas: It evolves so beautifully from the tactics that the characters are adopting. 571 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:27,500 Tom: Yeah. 572 00:39:27,620 --> 00:39:30,160 Stu: Coming back to the structure, because I've looked at it again, 573 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,380 Stu: the subtle shifting tactics. 574 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,640 Stu: So, you know, she brings up this containment thing. So, her goal is to get it 575 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,620 Stu: contained. Her goal for the scene is to get it contained. 576 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:46,200 Stu: And then she realizes when Vern says contain, she needs to get him to understand 577 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:51,740 Stu: what that means, right? And then that beat from contain question mark ends with 578 00:39:51,740 --> 00:39:54,980 Stu: the, is this the other way, right? That's the end of that first section. 579 00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:57,860 Stu: She then asks him, do you think it's doable? 580 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:04,260 Stu: And then that other beat is the, will she get him to agree to it? 581 00:40:04,380 --> 00:40:09,560 Stu: And that ends when he, Ver nods, the scene ends with Ver nodding. 582 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,940 Stu: He's agreed to what she's asked. 583 00:40:12,180 --> 00:40:15,640 Chas: Well, to my mind, they do actually want two different things. 584 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,880 Chas: As soon as they understand what they're talking about, which is most of the 585 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,400 Chas: scene, is them gaining a mutual understanding of what Karen is talking about, 586 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:24,920 Chas: and then you've got the decision. 587 00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:28,140 Chas: But in that decision, the two characters want two different things. 588 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:35,620 Chas: Karen wants Arthur killed, and Vern wants Karen to take responsibility for the 589 00:40:35,620 --> 00:40:37,440 Chas: decision of killing Arthur. 590 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:41,080 Tom: Yeah, even though Vern is already like, we have some good ideas. 591 00:40:41,740 --> 00:40:42,220 Stu: Yeah. 592 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:43,180 Tom: They've discussed it. 593 00:40:43,180 --> 00:40:45,900 Chas: You mean okay you understand or okay proceed. 594 00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:53,720 Tom: Yeah yeah it's such a good scene and and just from a writing standpoint or a 595 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:57,780 Tom: writer's standpoint you just have this scene on your board that says, 596 00:40:58,380 --> 00:41:03,520 Tom: karen makes the decision and and then it's just like well how much fun is that 597 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,260 Tom: going to be to write and then you just go in knowing this is going to be this 598 00:41:07,260 --> 00:41:09,620 Tom: and this is this tactic and this is this tactic, 599 00:41:09,860 --> 00:41:13,820 Tom: and then probably made the decision, and obviously I don't know, 600 00:41:14,020 --> 00:41:15,860 Tom: but probably made the decision to 601 00:41:16,270 --> 00:41:21,170 Tom: in the writing of the scene that we were going to cut out before she actually makes a decision. 602 00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:24,590 Tom: Because otherwise, there's no point to this scene. 603 00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:32,210 Tom: Unless the point was is he had this idea for a scene where they had to talk 604 00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:34,010 Tom: about a hit but couldn't talk about a hit. 605 00:41:34,430 --> 00:41:40,610 Tom: Which I tend to think is less likely. That tends to be the way you're going to execute a scene. 606 00:41:41,550 --> 00:41:44,450 Tom: But every now and then, of course, you have this idea of how you're going to 607 00:41:44,450 --> 00:41:48,790 Tom: execute a scene and then you... And then that becomes like, where do I put that scene? 608 00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:49,470 Chas: Yeah. 609 00:41:49,730 --> 00:41:51,250 Tom: Because she doesn't make the decision. 610 00:41:51,490 --> 00:41:56,210 Stu: That's actually a really profound revelation. The idea that the scene works 611 00:41:56,210 --> 00:41:58,570 Stu: and is in the movie because she doesn't make the scene. 612 00:41:59,010 --> 00:42:01,110 Stu: It doesn't make the decision. On screen. 613 00:42:01,370 --> 00:42:03,930 Chas: Well, I mean, obviously someone makes the decision. 614 00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:06,370 Tom: Someone does. Later we learn, yeah. 615 00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:12,890 Chas: Arthur gets killed in a very chilling sequence that's trying to replicate real time. 616 00:42:12,890 --> 00:42:17,050 Tom: And and apparently that makes the hit on michael much easier to choose too yeah. 617 00:42:17,050 --> 00:42:22,510 Stu: Well we we never see that is we never see a similar scene about michael we just. 618 00:42:22,510 --> 00:42:23,350 Tom: See yeah yeah and. 619 00:42:23,350 --> 00:42:26,190 Stu: We understand that that's what they're they're doing with the car bomb. 620 00:42:26,190 --> 00:42:34,170 Tom: She goes from like not being able to say it to just like now she's got a game of thrones hit list yeah. 621 00:42:34,170 --> 00:42:37,230 Stu: She general counsel cersei to uh. 622 00:42:37,230 --> 00:42:42,570 Tom: Yeah and it's still it's one of my favorite lines from this film is later on 623 00:42:42,570 --> 00:42:47,830 Tom: where he's like i'm not the guy you hit i'm the guy you buy off like yeah i'm 624 00:42:47,830 --> 00:42:53,850 Tom: so obvious like like i'm so corrupt and so obvious how could you make this mistake now. 625 00:42:53,850 --> 00:42:57,610 Chas: I'm conscious that we've got you for another little over another hour tom so 626 00:42:57,610 --> 00:43:02,150 Chas: i think we should move on to two inglorious bastards we're. 627 00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:07,290 Excerpts: Gonna be dropped into France dressed as civilians. We're gonna be doing one thing, one thing only. 628 00:43:09,070 --> 00:43:14,610 Excerpts: Killing Nazis. Yes, sir! Members of the National Socialist Party conquered Europe 629 00:43:14,610 --> 00:43:18,410 Excerpts: to murder, torture, intimidation, and terror. 630 00:43:18,690 --> 00:43:22,790 Excerpts: And that's exactly what we're gonna do to them. We will be cruel to the German 631 00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:25,150 Excerpts: and through our cruelty they will know who we are. 632 00:43:25,730 --> 00:43:29,510 Excerpts: They will find the evidence of our cruelty in the disemboweled, 633 00:43:29,630 --> 00:43:32,910 Excerpts: dismembered, and disfigured bodies they're brothers we leave behind us. 634 00:43:33,090 --> 00:43:36,810 Excerpts: And the German will not be able to help themselves from imagining the cruelty 635 00:43:36,810 --> 00:43:41,250 Excerpts: their brothers endured at our hands and our boot heels. 636 00:43:57,650 --> 00:44:05,130 Excerpts: Natsy ain't got no humanity they need to be destroyed each and every man under 637 00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:10,790 Excerpts: my command owes me 100 natsy scalps and i want my scalps, 638 00:44:13,170 --> 00:44:17,930 Excerpts: nine nine nine nine nine nine sound good yes sir. 639 00:44:20,130 --> 00:44:23,010 Chas: So as i mentioned before the inglorious bastard scene 640 00:44:23,010 --> 00:44:25,990 Chas: that we're talking about is the infamous strudel scene but just 641 00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:29,050 Chas: to set up a little bit inglorious bastards 642 00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:32,170 Chas: is the world war ii fan fiction 643 00:44:32,170 --> 00:44:35,550 Chas: by uh quentin tarantino it's possible 644 00:44:35,550 --> 00:44:39,210 Chas: it's in my top three tarantino films so i really really is it really yeah i 645 00:44:39,210 --> 00:44:43,770 Chas: really really like inglorious bastards but as is tarantino's want it it follows 646 00:44:43,770 --> 00:44:49,110 Chas: a number of different storylines that all happen to conveniently come together 647 00:44:49,110 --> 00:44:52,450 Chas: in a glorious climax of violence and fire, 648 00:44:52,630 --> 00:44:59,530 Chas: but this particular scene, the film opens with Colonel Hans Lander, who's an SS, 649 00:45:00,350 --> 00:45:04,790 Chas: his nickname is the Jew Hunter played by Christoph Waltz. 650 00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:07,250 Tom: Murdering the- There's some subtext for you. 651 00:45:08,890 --> 00:45:13,690 Chas: Murdering the entire family of Shoshanna. 652 00:45:26,140 --> 00:45:34,680 Excerpts: And a few years later. 653 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,940 Chas: Shoshana is being wooed. She's moved to Paris. 654 00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,240 Chas: She's assumed a new identity, hiding her religion and her ethnicity. 655 00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:54,340 Chas: She's now inherited a cinema in Paris and she is being wooed by a Nazi sniper called Frederick. 656 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,600 Stu: He's also becoming a movie star. 657 00:45:56,940 --> 00:46:03,180 Chas: Yes, Frederick has become the star of Goebbels' latest propaganda exercise. 658 00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:10,560 Chas: And Frederick, as part of his attempts to woo Shoshana, wants the premiere of 659 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,780 Chas: Goebbels and his movie to be at Shoshana's cinema. 660 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:23,480 Chas: Now, the context of this scene is that Shoshana has just been told by a Gestapo 661 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,280 Chas: major to get in a car and she has no idea where she's going. 662 00:46:28,220 --> 00:46:34,320 Chas: And she shows up at a famous Parisian cafe and there is Goebbels and Frederick. 663 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:39,660 Chas: Now, I think the scene that we particularly want to talk about is the final 664 00:46:39,660 --> 00:46:44,360 Chas: third of this scene, but we recently did an episode on Adolescence, Tom, 665 00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:50,080 Chas: the Netflix show, and we talked a lot about French scenes where the scene changes 666 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:55,740 Chas: by the entrance and exit of characters and that is definitely the case with this scene. 667 00:46:55,860 --> 00:46:56,180 Tom: Oh, yeah. 668 00:46:56,180 --> 00:47:01,560 Chas: There's an initial scene between Goebbels, Goebbels' French translator, 669 00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:05,760 Chas: Frederick and Shoshana, and then Lander appears. 670 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,260 Excerpts: Ah, Lander, there you are! 671 00:47:11,630 --> 00:47:19,430 Chas: He comes into the scene, sits at the table. 672 00:47:19,710 --> 00:47:24,090 Chas: There's then another scene with this new dynamic introduced by Lander. 673 00:47:24,490 --> 00:47:29,890 Chas: And obviously Shoshana trying very hard not to react to the fact that her family's 674 00:47:29,890 --> 00:47:31,290 Chas: murderer is sitting next to her. 675 00:47:31,610 --> 00:47:35,750 Chas: And then even more terrifying, Goebbels and Frederick leaves. 676 00:47:35,970 --> 00:47:41,410 Chas: And Lander asks to just have Shoshana stay behind. 677 00:47:41,410 --> 00:47:49,490 Chas: So that they can have just a one-on-one conversation that is the final movement 678 00:47:49,490 --> 00:47:52,490 Chas: or the final French scene within this larger scene. 679 00:47:52,730 --> 00:47:56,450 Chas: Is that a reasonable summary of where we're going to? 680 00:47:57,110 --> 00:48:02,650 Tom: Yes. I think it's worth noting that his justification is a security concern. 681 00:48:02,910 --> 00:48:03,510 Stu: Yes. 682 00:48:03,710 --> 00:48:09,370 Chas: I'm just going to quote one bit of Action Line, which is, the SS officer sits 683 00:48:09,370 --> 00:48:12,870 Chas: down and it's our old friend from the first scene, Colonel Hans Lander. 684 00:48:13,330 --> 00:48:16,830 Chas: Frederick introduces Emmanuel. This is Colonel Hans Lander of the SS. 685 00:48:17,010 --> 00:48:18,450 Chas: He'll be running security for the premiere. 686 00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:24,390 Chas: Close up on Shoshana. A bomb is dropped and detonated behind her eyes. 687 00:48:24,490 --> 00:48:28,750 Chas: But if she gives any indication of this, her war story ends here. 688 00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:35,250 Chas: The SS officer who murdered her family takes her hand and kisses it. 689 00:48:35,250 --> 00:48:41,310 Chas: So like what what we were saying earlier tarantino is screaming to us the subtext 690 00:48:41,310 --> 00:48:43,490 Chas: of this scene in the action lines. 691 00:48:43,490 --> 00:48:47,550 Tom: And and what's interesting is in the actual movie itself he turns the music 692 00:48:47,550 --> 00:48:49,930 Tom: up to 11 at that moment too oh. 693 00:48:49,930 --> 00:48:51,850 Stu: It's in the movie that's what. 694 00:48:51,850 --> 00:48:56,530 Tom: You read this and you watch the movie and it's close up you're like yep i i 695 00:48:56,530 --> 00:49:01,690 Tom: i will tell my students as i teach it's interesting i never made this connection 696 00:49:01,690 --> 00:49:05,010 Tom: until just now but I will tell them like a director, 697 00:49:05,770 --> 00:49:09,430 Tom: a director has this great tool of music, 698 00:49:10,130 --> 00:49:16,370 Tom: in their movie and you don't have that and so your action lines have to play 699 00:49:16,370 --> 00:49:19,890 Tom: that role in your movie it has to play the 700 00:49:20,190 --> 00:49:25,270 Tom: role of the musical score and that's exactly what he does here when he says 701 00:49:25,270 --> 00:49:29,970 Tom: the monster that killed her family that's the text version of the music, 702 00:49:30,630 --> 00:49:33,030 Tom: that the score turns up in that moment in the movie. 703 00:49:33,250 --> 00:49:37,850 Stu: I actually like that way to think about action lines being the music, 704 00:49:37,970 --> 00:49:40,010 Stu: because it's something that Chaz and I play with a lot, 705 00:49:40,250 --> 00:49:46,210 Stu: is revealing the interiority of characters in the action line or clarifying 706 00:49:46,210 --> 00:49:49,510 Stu: them in parentheticals or in big print. 707 00:49:49,690 --> 00:49:52,130 Stu: And some people ask us why, and I think now I can give the answer. 708 00:49:52,250 --> 00:49:53,830 Stu: It's like, it's the score, right? 709 00:49:53,950 --> 00:49:54,110 Tom: Yeah. 710 00:49:54,290 --> 00:49:59,030 Stu: If you need to turn it up to 11 or if you need to cut it, 711 00:49:59,030 --> 00:50:01,970 Stu: right you know you need to kind of un you know drop the 712 00:50:01,970 --> 00:50:06,090 Stu: sincerity or whatever it is that you're playing with you kind of actually have 713 00:50:06,090 --> 00:50:11,030 Stu: to use your big print to to do it and sometimes it's the fix i'm on our own 714 00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:14,770 Stu: script there was no for the producer saying this beat is awkward and it's like 715 00:50:14,770 --> 00:50:19,290 Stu: yeah yes the beat is meant to be awkward and so we just wrote awkward beat, 716 00:50:20,330 --> 00:50:23,590 Stu: great right as the parenthetical before the dialogue so 717 00:50:23,590 --> 00:50:26,610 Stu: it's not like a huh it's like a oh that's that is 718 00:50:26,610 --> 00:50:29,490 Stu: deliberate that is the point and i think 719 00:50:29,490 --> 00:50:32,810 Stu: what is interesting about tarantino unlike 720 00:50:32,810 --> 00:50:35,630 Stu: gilroy is he definitely writes a 721 00:50:35,630 --> 00:50:41,490 Stu: lot of his writes a lot of quote-unquote music into his big print yeah and it's 722 00:50:41,490 --> 00:50:46,050 Stu: funny that how much he plays with that so you've got the narrator telling us 723 00:50:46,050 --> 00:50:51,190 Stu: things that are going on you've got the the flash cut to goebbels having the 724 00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:53,330 Stu: affair with his translator, right? 725 00:50:53,410 --> 00:50:56,370 Stu: They're not making that as a subtext that's played within the scene. 726 00:50:56,550 --> 00:50:59,450 Stu: They are telling the audience that this is what's going on. 727 00:50:59,530 --> 00:51:02,910 Stu: But that's important because it means that when we see their relationship, 728 00:51:02,910 --> 00:51:04,610 Stu: we're not trying to guess. 729 00:51:05,150 --> 00:51:11,230 Stu: We're not being pulled out of the scene trying to guess whether Goebbels and 730 00:51:11,230 --> 00:51:12,550 Stu: his translator are having an affair. 731 00:51:12,770 --> 00:51:18,070 Stu: We know they're having an affair and therefore we read into their interactions, right? 732 00:51:18,070 --> 00:51:21,970 Tom: Oh, I was like, I like the switch from the script to the movie too. 733 00:51:22,150 --> 00:51:27,290 Tom: Because in the script, the focus is on her when they're having sex. 734 00:51:27,410 --> 00:51:27,830 Stu: Yes. 735 00:51:28,130 --> 00:51:34,330 Tom: And in the movie, the focus is on him making very pig-like noises. Very exact. 736 00:51:38,850 --> 00:51:42,810 Tom: And it's it's just a like a like i'm just sure they just discovered that that 737 00:51:42,810 --> 00:51:47,950 Tom: this is that was more interesting and more dehumanizing of goebbels or like whatever it. 738 00:51:47,950 --> 00:51:48,770 Stu: Is it. 739 00:51:48,770 --> 00:51:54,490 Tom: Was just an interesting change from the first version of the movie to the final version of the movie. 740 00:51:54,490 --> 00:51:58,670 Stu: It is it is it is a interesting change and i think it kind of also reflects 741 00:51:58,670 --> 00:52:03,490 Stu: that in terms of the the tactics of the scene goebbels in this first section 742 00:52:03,490 --> 00:52:07,490 Stu: and we do want to talk more about the strudel but goebbels is basically an egomaniac 743 00:52:07,490 --> 00:52:13,990 Stu: right he's a narcissist and the whole scene is actually about him just talking about him and. 744 00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:16,550 Tom: His spider-like fingers which is just a great lie. 745 00:52:16,550 --> 00:52:20,630 Stu: And but i think what's interesting about that is obviously it has this point 746 00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:28,030 Stu: where he's trying to go to the this idea that shasana will host the premiere 747 00:52:28,030 --> 00:52:33,770 Stu: right and so that's kind of the tactics of all of that and it's And it inflates her importance. 748 00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:39,370 Stu: It inflates Frederick's importance from his egomania. 749 00:52:39,550 --> 00:52:40,930 Tom: And motivates it. It's great. 750 00:52:41,110 --> 00:52:46,890 Chas: I mean, a couple of times it does point out in the action lines that as if Shoshanna 751 00:52:46,890 --> 00:52:49,330 Chas: has any choice. I think it's twice throughout the scene. 752 00:52:49,790 --> 00:52:55,050 Chas: They are Shoshanna something. And in the action line, it says as if Shoshanna 753 00:52:55,050 --> 00:52:56,170 Chas: has any choice in the matter. 754 00:52:56,290 --> 00:52:59,670 Tom: And that's a similar thing is not replicated in the movie, though. 755 00:52:59,730 --> 00:53:00,790 Tom: That's what's kind of interesting. 756 00:53:01,010 --> 00:53:01,870 Stu: Oh, it isn't. 757 00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:09,990 Tom: No, because the question is there, and it is a commentary on the moment that's 758 00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:14,290 Tom: from Tarantino, but not Tarantino, the director. 759 00:53:14,590 --> 00:53:17,510 Tom: Because it's not a moment in the movie. Like, we understand of like, 760 00:53:17,630 --> 00:53:20,130 Tom: hey, would that be okay? And she goes, uh-huh. 761 00:53:20,650 --> 00:53:23,210 Tom: And then, of course, we go, well, of course, she has to agree. 762 00:53:23,670 --> 00:53:28,110 Tom: But there isn't that emotional beat where it's, well, of course, 763 00:53:28,270 --> 00:53:29,490 Tom: like, I don't have a choice. 764 00:53:29,490 --> 00:53:36,630 Tom: So it's just a it's it's an interesting commentary that has no dramatic equivalent 765 00:53:36,630 --> 00:53:38,030 Tom: when the film is executed. 766 00:53:38,030 --> 00:53:40,650 Stu: Okay so i'm i do want to 767 00:53:40,650 --> 00:53:43,370 Stu: get into the strudel but i do want to because it is 768 00:53:43,370 --> 00:53:46,390 Stu: interesting it's like three pages of google's waxing lyrical 769 00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:49,710 Stu: right yeah what makes it and and you know obviously tarantino 770 00:53:49,710 --> 00:53:53,450 Stu: is an incredibly gifted dialogue writer but i think he's incredibly gifted at 771 00:53:53,450 --> 00:53:58,190 Stu: drama which is why his dialogue is good what is goebel's tactic here if we're 772 00:53:58,190 --> 00:54:03,910 Stu: talking about like what is subtext is the result of these of drama what's his 773 00:54:03,910 --> 00:54:06,570 Stu: goal here what's his tactic here well. 774 00:54:06,570 --> 00:54:11,770 Tom: He's certainly uh aggrandizing himself just like the narcissist of of taking 775 00:54:11,770 --> 00:54:16,490 Tom: over the table uh but it's also interesting a lot of it's cut 776 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,340 Tom: A lot of this doesn't make the final cut of the film. 777 00:54:20,660 --> 00:54:25,100 Tom: So at some point, you might very well have had Tarantino going, 778 00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:27,500 Tom: what the hell is this all about? 779 00:54:28,780 --> 00:54:35,680 Tom: Let me just go ahead and cut it. There is a difference between scenes that are 780 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,980 Tom: full, long scenes that are full and are dense. 781 00:54:40,380 --> 00:54:44,000 Tom: And then there are long scenes that are just long. 782 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,940 Tom: And it's kind of i i think 783 00:54:48,940 --> 00:54:53,280 Tom: if you like history and you're interested in this sort of thing and but like 784 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:59,720 Tom: lucky kids like all that stuff this is what i'll there is irony to like i'll 785 00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:04,960 Tom: be remembered for lucky kids of course you know like that but there's a reason 786 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:06,920 Tom: why it's cut from the final film and. 787 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,400 Chas: Maybe it's the absence of subtext right the. 788 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:11,240 Tom: Oh yeah as. 789 00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:17,260 Chas: Soon as she realizes that she's not been brought to the cafe to be interrogated 790 00:55:17,260 --> 00:55:20,500 Chas: and executed as a Jew in hiding, 791 00:55:20,860 --> 00:55:26,860 Chas: as soon as she realizes that, the narrative tension somehow somewhat leaves the scene. 792 00:55:27,020 --> 00:55:27,280 Tom: Yeah. 793 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:32,180 Chas: And that it's all about Frederick basically trying to convince Goebbels to use 794 00:55:32,180 --> 00:55:35,100 Chas: her cinema and Goebbels, I think, just toying with Frederick. 795 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:36,000 Tom: Which- Yeah. 796 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,500 Stu: Doesn't sustain itself for three pages. 797 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,740 Chas: Well, especially not when Shoshana is our point of view character. 798 00:55:41,940 --> 00:55:42,140 Stu: Yeah. 799 00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:42,460 Tom: Yeah. 800 00:55:42,580 --> 00:55:47,540 Chas: Because she is completely incidental to what's going on in terms of the tactics 801 00:55:47,540 --> 00:55:49,060 Chas: of the people in the scene. 802 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,680 Chas: Like Shoshana's tactic is, I need to say as little as humanly possible. 803 00:55:53,060 --> 00:56:00,040 Chas: And the other two are the ones with an objective. And it's only when Hans arrives in the scene that, 804 00:56:00,550 --> 00:56:06,930 Chas: The subtext is reignited and it's just reignited pretty much through dramatic 805 00:56:06,930 --> 00:56:09,150 Chas: irony, through narrative point of view. 806 00:56:09,370 --> 00:56:13,210 Stu: I mean, he literally interrupts the scene in the script. 807 00:56:13,410 --> 00:56:18,690 Stu: They call out the fact that the uniform half enters frame, the bottom half of 808 00:56:18,690 --> 00:56:20,010 Stu: the uniform enters frame. 809 00:56:20,150 --> 00:56:24,650 Stu: And then he kind of takes over from that point of view. 810 00:56:24,810 --> 00:56:27,110 Stu: So, we should dive into this back half of it. 811 00:56:27,110 --> 00:56:27,670 Chas: It's. 812 00:56:27,670 --> 00:56:30,790 Stu: Just interesting interrogating that and it is good to realize that they did 813 00:56:30,790 --> 00:56:35,330 Stu: cut most of it yeah probably because that subtext isn't as strong to hold it together there's. 814 00:56:35,330 --> 00:56:36,170 Tom: No drama there. 815 00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:40,650 Chas: So i've already mentioned the the bomb going offline then 816 00:56:40,650 --> 00:56:44,770 Chas: once goebbels and friedrich and francesca leave i'm 817 00:56:44,770 --> 00:56:47,790 Chas: just going to read the action lines again because tarantino is 818 00:56:47,790 --> 00:56:50,810 Chas: telling us as the reader what we already 819 00:56:50,810 --> 00:56:54,470 Chas: know but he's like drawing our attention to it because like this is 820 00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:57,370 Chas: why the scene is going to be you're going to read dialogue 821 00:56:57,370 --> 00:57:00,310 Chas: about strudel but it's going to be tense as fuck 822 00:57:00,310 --> 00:57:04,330 Chas: uh so everybody says their farewells colonel 823 00:57:04,330 --> 00:57:07,450 Chas: lander offers the young jew in hiding a 824 00:57:07,450 --> 00:57:10,530 Chas: seat at a small table in the outside patio area of 825 00:57:10,530 --> 00:57:17,070 Chas: maxim's the fluency and poetic proficiency of the ss jew hunters french reveals 826 00:57:17,070 --> 00:57:22,990 Chas: to the audience that his feigning clumsiness at french with monsieur Lapadite 827 00:57:22,990 --> 00:57:27,750 Chas: in the film's first scene was simply an interrogation technique. 828 00:57:28,090 --> 00:57:30,430 Chas: So he's setting us up for the scene. 829 00:57:30,650 --> 00:57:33,050 Tom: Yes, but also that no one in the audience got. 830 00:57:33,310 --> 00:57:34,690 Chas: Yeah, sure. 831 00:57:35,350 --> 00:57:38,910 Tom: Yeah, like this is like, it can be subtle as long as it's obvious, 832 00:57:39,250 --> 00:57:43,110 Tom: but this was not like no one picked this up at all. No one. 833 00:57:43,170 --> 00:57:47,450 Stu: But what you do get is why does he want to talk to her? 834 00:57:47,610 --> 00:57:51,970 Stu: He suspects that you actually kind of get the obvious part of all of this. Yes. 835 00:57:52,290 --> 00:57:57,410 Chas: I mean, what they're setting up is that what he's telling us in the action lines 836 00:57:57,410 --> 00:58:02,710 Chas: is he is a skilled interrogator, and this is going to feel like an interrogation, 837 00:58:02,870 --> 00:58:05,750 Chas: which it does, from Shoshanna's point of view. 838 00:58:05,890 --> 00:58:11,210 Chas: She is unaware and desperately wants to know, am I sitting in an interrogation or not? 839 00:58:11,390 --> 00:58:12,370 Stu: And it means- 840 00:58:13,210 --> 00:58:16,590 Stu: means that when he just starts like, have you tried the strudel here? 841 00:58:17,090 --> 00:58:20,650 Stu: So it goes interrogation technique. Have you tried the strudel here? 842 00:58:20,810 --> 00:58:24,650 Stu: Right. Like on the big print, you feel the tonal shift, right. 843 00:58:24,830 --> 00:58:26,990 Stu: Which may be reflected in the music. 844 00:58:27,210 --> 00:58:31,350 Stu: Right. So as much as you're saying that no one in the audience got this subtle 845 00:58:31,350 --> 00:58:34,530 Stu: bit of, I mean, this is to me like directing the actor. 846 00:58:34,650 --> 00:58:37,710 Stu: This is a great bit of direction for the actor, which is Christopher, 847 00:58:37,930 --> 00:58:40,070 Stu: your, your French in the beginning of the film is going to be clumsy. 848 00:58:40,330 --> 00:58:43,050 Stu: It's not going to be clumsy here. That's something the audience is going to 849 00:58:43,050 --> 00:58:46,970 Stu: hear, but it's not going to be, and that you can play, but it's not going to 850 00:58:46,970 --> 00:58:48,930 Stu: be something that they're consciously aware of. 851 00:58:49,050 --> 00:58:53,970 Stu: But what it does do on the page is mean that there is a tonal shift to the second 852 00:58:53,970 --> 00:58:56,330 Stu: half that says, this is an interrogation. 853 00:58:57,030 --> 00:58:59,930 Stu: It's going to feel like an interrogation, which it does. 854 00:59:00,110 --> 00:59:02,710 Stu: I think in the way it's shot and probably the way its music is played, 855 00:59:02,710 --> 00:59:04,490 Stu: it feels more of an interrogation. 856 00:59:04,650 --> 00:59:09,490 Stu: I certainly remember the first time, this is one of those many tense scenes in this film. 857 00:59:10,430 --> 00:59:16,190 Stu: It's like the underground bar scene is the other big one that we also considered doing. 858 00:59:16,590 --> 00:59:20,030 Stu: The tension just ramps up and it's just people having normal conversation. 859 00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:22,310 Stu: But you can really feel the tension here. 860 00:59:22,670 --> 00:59:26,830 Stu: Because we know she's a Jew in hiding. And that's the important thing from the earlier beat. 861 00:59:26,910 --> 00:59:32,750 Stu: It's reminding us of the reader, what's at stake for her, right? 862 00:59:33,050 --> 00:59:36,630 Stu: And the irony, what she's trying to hide and not reveal. 863 00:59:36,850 --> 00:59:40,970 Stu: So, that's kind of the coming back to the tactic. This isn't the tactic of what 864 00:59:40,970 --> 00:59:44,490 Stu: she wants to reveal. This is the tactic of what she doesn't want to reveal. 865 00:59:45,130 --> 00:59:48,670 Stu: And then us filling the gap of him. 866 00:59:48,850 --> 00:59:51,250 Stu: What's interesting is we don't actually know why he's there. 867 00:59:51,390 --> 00:59:53,950 Stu: He just says he wants to discuss a security concern. 868 00:59:54,030 --> 00:59:57,110 Stu: So we kind of feel the void of information. 869 00:59:57,730 --> 00:59:58,450 Tom: I, I, 870 00:59:59,140 --> 01:00:05,960 Tom: I, and I'm certainly not being critical of Tarantino, who is certainly one of our best writers. 871 01:00:06,700 --> 01:00:12,040 Tom: He's just one of our best writers. But, like, of the three interrogation scenes, 872 01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:14,140 Tom: this, to me, is the least effective. 873 01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:15,180 Stu: You're right. 874 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,600 Tom: Like, the opening one, the opening one is incredibly effective. 875 01:00:20,020 --> 01:00:22,420 Tom: Like, that's, to me, it's one of the great scenes in cinema. 876 01:00:22,420 --> 01:00:29,380 Tom: The scene at the bar, which as you start to suspect that this officer suspects 877 01:00:29,380 --> 01:00:31,760 Tom: this officer isn't who he says he is. 878 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:36,580 Tom: Both those scenes, people were asking questions in an effort to get more information. 879 01:00:37,220 --> 01:00:46,580 Tom: Whereas in this scene, I think it leans way too much on we know that she's a Jew. We know who he is. 880 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:53,680 Tom: But he seemed somewhat uninterested. And he says, this is a formality. 881 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,200 Tom: And of course you hear that and you think, well, that's probably not true. 882 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:00,820 Tom: That's probably an interrogation technique. 883 01:01:00,980 --> 01:01:03,980 Tom: But it seems at the end of the scene that that was in fact true. 884 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,520 Chas: Yeah. He suspects nothing. 885 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:12,380 Tom: He's unaware, suspects nothing, makes no decisions or choices that lead him 886 01:01:12,380 --> 01:01:14,440 Tom: down one path or another path. 887 01:01:14,780 --> 01:01:16,960 Tom: He is just being polite. 888 01:01:17,700 --> 01:01:23,580 Tom: To the girl that gerbils. And so to me, there is a potential of tension that 889 01:01:23,580 --> 01:01:28,060 Tom: never fulfills itself and then falls flat at the end. 890 01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,440 Stu: This is interesting because I think this kind of connects back to a somewhat 891 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,660 Stu: similar version of the zone of interest thing. 892 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,940 Stu: This is subtext, the filmmaker's subtext, right? 893 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:40,680 Chas: Yeah. 894 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:46,660 Stu: In a way that, as you say, we're interpreting his questions as an interrogation 895 01:01:46,660 --> 01:01:51,480 Stu: And Tarantino's working very hard for us to feel that, to the point when he 896 01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:52,640 Stu: orders the glass of milk. 897 01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:55,000 Stu: And I remember that moment when he goes, oh, can I have a glass of milk? 898 01:01:55,300 --> 01:01:58,780 Stu: It calls back to the beginning of the film when he does the same thing, 899 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,560 Stu: when it actually writes in the big print. 900 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:05,200 Stu: Considering that show, Sanna grew up in a dairy farm, and the last time she 901 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,920 Stu: was on a dairy farm, her strudel companion murdered her entire family. 902 01:02:09,340 --> 01:02:12,860 Stu: His ordering her milk is, to say the least, disconcerting. 903 01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:15,140 Tom: But did you feel that in the scene? 904 01:02:15,140 --> 01:02:17,160 Stu: I found it disconcerting. 905 01:02:17,340 --> 01:02:17,620 Tom: Okay. 906 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:21,500 Stu: Yes, I did. The first time I saw it, I did find my tension ramped up. 907 01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:25,500 Stu: But as you say, that's not a tactic from him. That's her experience of it. 908 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:26,160 Tom: Yeah. 909 01:02:26,420 --> 01:02:30,500 Stu: And the ending of the scene is her literally having pissed herself. 910 01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:31,020 Tom: Yeah. 911 01:02:31,220 --> 01:02:36,120 Stu: Because what I think the filmmaker's intention of this, the subtext from the 912 01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:40,920 Stu: filmmakers or the storytellers point of view, is to make us realize how under 913 01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,620 Stu: threat she is in every part of her life. 914 01:02:44,620 --> 01:02:47,440 Stu: That these guys are scary even when they're 915 01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,600 Stu: not trying to scare you for someone like her yeah and 916 01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,760 Stu: i think for me it works like that but it's an interesting this is an interesting 917 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,720 Stu: i think this is that other type of subtext you know it's not theme it's not 918 01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:03,080 Stu: meaning it's the storyteller trying to make us feel something in a particular 919 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:07,880 Stu: way uh in this case i think to help us empathize with her yeah. 920 01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,960 Tom: It's it's it's one of the reasons why just filmmaking is just so damn hard. 921 01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:13,280 Stu: Oh yeah you know Like. 922 01:03:13,420 --> 01:03:17,480 Tom: It is just so much harder than it looks. Because I... 923 01:03:18,330 --> 01:03:23,490 Tom: I think the experience he wants the audience to have is the experience you have 924 01:03:23,490 --> 01:03:28,930 Tom: and the experience that i had was oh this is going to be another tension like 925 01:03:28,930 --> 01:03:29,950 Tom: this is going to be another, 926 01:03:30,750 --> 01:03:34,050 Tom: and then it feels like a letdown and 927 01:03:34,050 --> 01:03:36,870 Tom: then i had just read the script from you guys so like i only 928 01:03:36,870 --> 01:03:39,930 Tom: knew the movie up to this point which kind 929 01:03:39,930 --> 01:03:43,670 Tom: of shows her a moment of like that tension 930 01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:46,630 Tom: and fear releasing which i i just 931 01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:49,650 Tom: from a personal standpoint would like to have seen longer i would 932 01:03:49,650 --> 01:03:52,630 Tom: like i thought i thought it cut too short on just 933 01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:55,710 Tom: how of just what that would be like 934 01:03:55,710 --> 01:03:58,830 Tom: to try to pretend to keep 935 01:03:58,830 --> 01:04:01,610 Tom: a secret and hold that tension and then 936 01:04:01,610 --> 01:04:05,390 Tom: you have a single moment where you're it's allowed to go yeah 937 01:04:05,390 --> 01:04:10,570 Tom: i i would like to have seen what that looked like like a little longer but i 938 01:04:10,570 --> 01:04:15,410 Tom: like what you're saying to me the scene where oh my god is this interrogation 939 01:04:15,410 --> 01:04:17,350 Tom: this interrogation is this interrogation 940 01:04:17,350 --> 01:04:22,110 Tom: and then the realization of no he literally is just asking formally. 941 01:04:23,290 --> 01:04:26,450 Tom: And and to have that my god he was 942 01:04:26,450 --> 01:04:29,990 Tom: just being like going through polite and 943 01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:34,070 Tom: she practically vomited you know and she peed herself in the script yeah yeah 944 01:04:34,070 --> 01:04:39,870 Tom: and if i had felt that version of the scene which I think is what you're saying 945 01:04:39,870 --> 01:04:44,430 Tom: you felt that version of the scene then it would have been I was like oh my 946 01:04:44,430 --> 01:04:49,530 Tom: god what a great scene but it's why filmmaking is so hard of like how do you, 947 01:04:50,410 --> 01:04:56,090 Tom: give everyone in the audience the experience you want to give them while everyone 948 01:04:56,090 --> 01:05:00,010 Tom: in the audience feels like they're the only ones who had that private experience, 949 01:05:00,590 --> 01:05:04,030 Tom: without everyone having different because then if everyone's different you're 950 01:05:04,030 --> 01:05:07,990 Tom: not in control you're not telling a story and he's like obviously one of our 951 01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:11,830 Tom: best so it's just difficult craft yes. 952 01:05:11,830 --> 01:05:17,570 Chas: It's to put it in the context of like what works well about this and not is 953 01:05:17,570 --> 01:05:24,510 Chas: again he hasn't gone into it going lander is talking about something else he's 954 01:05:24,510 --> 01:05:31,710 Chas: not he is pure text he is talking about strudels and cinema security there is no subtext. 955 01:05:31,710 --> 01:05:32,870 Tom: Yeah whatsoever. 956 01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:37,690 Chas: To to the dialogue that that lander is in control of. 957 01:05:37,690 --> 01:05:38,150 Tom: Yeah right. 958 01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:42,850 Chas: And this is where we're talking about the subtext of is it the characters are 959 01:05:42,850 --> 01:05:48,050 Chas: aware of it which is what is in michael clayton versus the irony created by the filmmakers and the, 960 01:05:52,200 --> 01:06:00,380 Chas: I think potentially what you're missing, Tom, is Shoshana's tactic is to not give herself away. 961 01:06:00,620 --> 01:06:00,960 Tom: Sure. 962 01:06:01,020 --> 01:06:04,980 Chas: She desperately wants to know what Hans knows. 963 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:09,580 Chas: And in fact, this is once again called out in the action lines. 964 01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:14,400 Chas: So, right after that line that, Stu, you read out before about how disconcerting 965 01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:15,620 Chas: the ordering of the milk is. 966 01:06:15,620 --> 01:06:20,740 Chas: It says, the key to Colonel Lander's power and or charm, depending whose side 967 01:06:20,740 --> 01:06:25,900 Chas: you are on, lies in his ability to convince you he's privy to your secrets. 968 01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:31,240 Chas: Right. So Shoshana desperately wants to know, do you know who I am? 969 01:06:31,500 --> 01:06:34,360 Tom: Right. But that's in the text of the script. Is that in the scene? 970 01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,080 Chas: Well, I think it is in the scene. Like she's fearful, but. 971 01:06:37,260 --> 01:06:41,080 Tom: Because if he knows who she is, what's the point of the scene? 972 01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:46,400 Chas: Well, I think he's established with us in the first scene that he likes toying with people. 973 01:06:46,980 --> 01:06:50,800 Chas: So, you know, this is obviously a direct callback to the first scene. 974 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,980 Chas: Is he toying with her or is he not? 975 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:54,800 Tom: Yeah. 976 01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,980 Chas: And I think potentially the issue that you're missing that you feel in those 977 01:06:58,980 --> 01:07:04,920 Chas: other interrogation scenes is that Shoshana's tactic here is to not reveal herself. 978 01:07:05,220 --> 01:07:10,080 Chas: She's got an objective, which is, I want to know, is this an interrogation or not? 979 01:07:10,180 --> 01:07:15,160 Chas: But her tactic cannot go towards that dramatic objective at all. 980 01:07:15,340 --> 01:07:21,540 Chas: She just has to hide what she's feeling. Whereas in those other two scenes, 981 01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:26,700 Chas: Monsieur Lapidit has an objective and his tactic aligns with that objective 982 01:07:26,700 --> 01:07:28,840 Chas: to hide the family under the floor. 983 01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:34,060 Chas: And in the later scene, the Michael Fassbender character, I can't remember the 984 01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:35,680 Chas: name of his character, but... 985 01:07:36,620 --> 01:07:40,760 Chas: In that interrogation in the bar underneath, Michael Fassbender's character 986 01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,120 Chas: has tactics to try and counter the suspicion. 987 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:50,080 Chas: He goes into a long story about where his German accent comes from and the actor 988 01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,360 Chas: character is also playing along with that. 989 01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,640 Chas: So, that's where the movements of 990 01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:58,820 Chas: the scene and the drama and the tension can shift 991 01:07:58,820 --> 01:08:02,120 Chas: within the scene because of the tactics available to 992 01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:05,060 Chas: the characters so this this one scene there's no 993 01:08:05,060 --> 01:08:09,160 Chas: dramatic movement we looked at a one page scene with michael 994 01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,240 Chas: clayton where there was three dramatic movements in this 995 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,880 Chas: scene it is the same yeah drama throughout 996 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:20,140 Chas: it's just tension which tarantino is a master i'm not saying that that's a negative 997 01:08:20,140 --> 01:08:25,020 Chas: thing like he can sit in tension for so long but maybe that's what you're missing 998 01:08:25,020 --> 01:08:29,320 Chas: in comparison to those other scenes is maybe the lack of tactics available to 999 01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:31,060 Chas: the characters and as a result of 1000 01:08:31,060 --> 01:08:35,020 Chas: those lack of tactics there's a lack of dramatic movement to the scene i. 1001 01:08:35,020 --> 01:08:39,040 Tom: Really like your comment about the filmmaker's subtext here though like i think 1002 01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:43,280 Tom: this is a really good example of what i think i the light bulb went off when 1003 01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:48,500 Tom: you said of like here's here's the filmmaker's tactics because we eventually 1004 01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:50,780 Tom: learned landa has no real subtext here. 1005 01:08:50,780 --> 01:08:52,560 Chas: Yes you. 1006 01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:56,960 Tom: Know like we eventually learn and he he is just a formality that this woman 1007 01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:00,140 Tom: was literally introduced to him by Goebbels. 1008 01:09:00,340 --> 01:09:00,620 Chas: Yeah. 1009 01:09:01,020 --> 01:09:07,380 Tom: You know, like he's not looking or thinking anything, but he's polite and, 1010 01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:11,900 Tom: you know, he forgets the cream and so there's all these long moments of like, 1011 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:13,780 Tom: don't do the strudel with the strudel. So, 1012 01:09:14,570 --> 01:09:20,430 Tom: So to me of like, oh, well, like we're being told their subtext by the filmmaker 1013 01:09:20,430 --> 01:09:24,250 Tom: because she's trying to figure out what the subtext is. 1014 01:09:24,430 --> 01:09:24,630 Chas: Yeah. 1015 01:09:24,870 --> 01:09:27,650 Tom: But in actuality, there isn't the subtext. 1016 01:09:28,850 --> 01:09:29,410 Chas: Yeah. 1017 01:09:29,590 --> 01:09:35,990 Tom: And so I guess what I wanted to me to have felt that was like when it was done 1018 01:09:35,990 --> 01:09:43,650 Tom: to have understood that from the scene and watching the scene rather than a podcast discussion. 1019 01:09:43,650 --> 01:09:49,230 Tom: I wanted i wanted that i wanted to understand it in the moment and go oh that's 1020 01:09:49,230 --> 01:09:56,230 Tom: poor like like she thought she was an interrogation and she wasn't and what an awful awful life, 1021 01:09:57,070 --> 01:10:01,450 Tom: so like now that we talk about it it's like oh yeah this is this is really good 1022 01:10:01,450 --> 01:10:08,090 Tom: you know like okay but again it's like going back to it can be subtle as long as it's obvious, 1023 01:10:08,810 --> 01:10:13,950 Tom: of what is the experience, what is the shift and the change in the scene. 1024 01:10:14,670 --> 01:10:17,770 Tom: And it always feels, because it's just for fun, because you're just, 1025 01:10:17,890 --> 01:10:19,250 Tom: we're talking about Tarantino. 1026 01:10:19,450 --> 01:10:27,630 Tom: So like we're talking about, is it a 99 out of a hundred or is this a 98 out 1027 01:10:27,630 --> 01:10:30,190 Tom: of a hundred? And like, that's the debate. 1028 01:10:30,530 --> 01:10:30,670 Chas: Yeah. 1029 01:10:31,450 --> 01:10:36,090 Stu: I mean, and it is interesting just coming back to this filmmaker subtext Because 1030 01:10:36,090 --> 01:10:41,590 Stu: unlike Michael Clayton, he is doing a lot of work and he's writing a lot of 1031 01:10:41,590 --> 01:10:43,550 Stu: music in his action lines here. 1032 01:10:43,590 --> 01:10:43,750 Tom: Yeah. 1033 01:10:43,910 --> 01:10:50,970 Stu: Because he's wanting an effect that isn't arising from the drama of both characters. 1034 01:10:51,210 --> 01:10:54,450 Stu: Like, I certainly think we need to understand what she's thinking on the page 1035 01:10:54,450 --> 01:10:58,590 Stu: for him to have the effect that he is looking, which us sitting with her, 1036 01:10:58,810 --> 01:11:02,210 Stu: believing something is an interrogation when it is not. 1037 01:11:03,070 --> 01:11:06,750 Stu: And I definitely lean a little bit more into the Tarantino, you know, 1038 01:11:06,810 --> 01:11:10,510 Stu: that's what I've learned from reading Tarantino scripts is this kind of writing 1039 01:11:10,510 --> 01:11:12,870 Stu: of sometimes you just got to write in the- Oh. 1040 01:11:12,910 --> 01:11:15,990 Tom: I think you should. Yeah. You absolutely should. 1041 01:11:16,110 --> 01:11:19,010 Stu: This is the guy from the beginning of the film that murdered her old family. 1042 01:11:19,390 --> 01:11:19,870 Tom: Absolutely. 1043 01:11:20,350 --> 01:11:24,210 Stu: Because you will remember that when he sits down, you will recognize that face 1044 01:11:24,210 --> 01:11:26,870 Stu: because there is a literally a face to it. 1045 01:11:26,990 --> 01:11:32,010 Stu: Whereas on the page writing Colonel Lander has none, brings up none of those emotions. 1046 01:11:32,210 --> 01:11:36,230 Tom: No, watching a movie and reading a script are two different experiences, 1047 01:11:36,230 --> 01:11:42,170 Tom: and you have to create that experience of the movie for the reader. Yeah. You have to. 1048 01:11:42,370 --> 01:11:46,630 Stu: You have to. I mean, that's absolutely the best writing advice I was ever given 1049 01:11:46,630 --> 01:11:50,190 Stu: back when I was at the VCA, which is the film school I went to, 1050 01:11:50,330 --> 01:11:51,370 Stu: was write the experience. 1051 01:11:51,670 --> 01:11:55,290 Stu: And I've clung to that ever since. And in fact, 1052 01:11:55,370 --> 01:11:59,270 Stu: I think our podcast is all about that and maybe why we like what you write about 1053 01:11:59,270 --> 01:12:02,810 Stu: screenwriting and what you talk about because it's the same thing it's how do 1054 01:12:02,810 --> 01:12:07,370 Stu: you recreate the movie experience on the page yeah and this is, 1055 01:12:07,910 --> 01:12:13,070 Stu: carantina trying to do something because he has this idea in mind of and it's, 1056 01:12:13,740 --> 01:12:17,160 Stu: We're talking about the experience for the audience. I do think it's about putting 1057 01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,880 Stu: us in the experience of Shosanna as well. 1058 01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:24,240 Stu: And he is writing about it as it's not that it's scary for us. 1059 01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:27,260 Stu: It's that it's scary for her. This is the guy that murdered her family. 1060 01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:32,340 Stu: She is feeling anxious, all that stuff. It is about how his presence makes her 1061 01:12:32,340 --> 01:12:35,600 Stu: feel. But as you say, there is less shift. 1062 01:12:36,540 --> 01:12:40,140 Stu: There's less complexity in the shifting here. It's him sitting in the tension. 1063 01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:44,480 Stu: There's a couple of shifts, but they're very small. is she kind of blabbers 1064 01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:46,780 Stu: a bit and he says, there's no reason to feel anxious. 1065 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:47,160 Tom: Yeah. 1066 01:12:47,260 --> 01:12:51,560 Stu: And then she shifts to very short answers, right, in response. 1067 01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:53,380 Stu: But he doesn't seem to pick up on that. 1068 01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:57,000 Stu: You know, it would have been interesting if he's like, you've just gone from 1069 01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:58,460 Stu: blabbering to being really short. 1070 01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:02,920 Stu: And then when they bring up Marcel, her African projectionist, 1071 01:13:02,980 --> 01:13:05,900 Stu: and he picks up on that and he talks about the Negro, et cetera, 1072 01:13:06,060 --> 01:13:08,520 Stu: et cetera, the tension rises again. 1073 01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:08,840 Tom: Yeah. 1074 01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:13,500 Stu: But then he's like, oh, yeah, no, I can see how that works. and then it dissipates. 1075 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:18,120 Stu: So you've got these ebbs and flows, but it's not like these shifts in the same 1076 01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:19,560 Stu: way that we see in Michael Clayton. 1077 01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:23,240 Tom: Yeah, it doesn't escalate. It shifts, but it doesn't escalate. 1078 01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:28,280 Stu: Interestingly enough, all the substance does is escalate in madness. 1079 01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:33,220 Chas: That is a pretty amazing segue. Well done, Stu. 1080 01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:38,120 Chas: So can we move on to the substance, Tom? 1081 01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:44,100 Tom: Yes, let's go over the 67 pages of the substance that you sent to me. 1082 01:13:45,460 --> 01:13:47,840 Stu: I've only highlighted one page. 1083 01:13:51,700 --> 01:13:55,620 Excerpts: Have you ever dreamt of a better version of yourself? 1084 01:13:57,780 --> 01:14:01,800 Excerpts: Younger, more beautiful, more perfect. 1085 01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:08,740 Excerpts: One single injection unlocks your DNA and will release another version of yourself. 1086 01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:16,600 Excerpts: This is the substance. 1087 01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:27,160 Excerpts: A perfect balance of seven days each. The one and only thing not to forget. 1088 01:14:27,740 --> 01:14:30,240 Excerpts: You are one. 1089 01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:32,920 Excerpts: You can't escape from yourself. 1090 01:14:36,380 --> 01:14:40,040 Excerpts: There's been a slight misuse of the substance. 1091 01:14:43,340 --> 01:14:44,100 Excerpts: No! 1092 01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:50,980 Excerpts: This balance is not working! 1093 01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:57,080 Excerpts: Would you like to stop? Would you like to stop? 1094 01:14:59,380 --> 01:15:00,480 Excerpts: I'm fine. 1095 01:15:04,930 --> 01:15:08,030 Chas: To be clear so we were we came 1096 01:15:08,030 --> 01:15:15,270 Chas: into this with tom's article is called subtext is overrated and i was like all 1097 01:15:15,270 --> 01:15:20,670 Chas: right what's what film is an example of how subtext is overrated and i to put 1098 01:15:20,670 --> 01:15:26,270 Chas: my cards on the table i really love the substance but i also think any criticism leveled at it, 1099 01:15:26,430 --> 01:15:28,930 Chas: like in this New Yorker article, 1100 01:15:29,110 --> 01:15:31,670 Chas: that it is obvious is fair. 1101 01:15:31,850 --> 01:15:37,070 Chas: It is the most obvious film I think I've potentially ever seen. 1102 01:15:38,410 --> 01:15:40,730 Tom: But why is obvious a criticism? 1103 01:15:41,250 --> 01:15:49,290 Chas: And that's where I disagree with the whole premise of this article in the New Yorker. 1104 01:15:49,390 --> 01:15:53,850 Chas: But they were like, Anora and The Substance are too literal. 1105 01:15:54,030 --> 01:15:58,430 Chas: They're the new literalism. they're very obvious but then was like but conclave 1106 01:15:58,430 --> 01:16:05,410 Chas: and furiosa by contrast uh like the films that we should aspire to to have with 1107 01:16:05,410 --> 01:16:08,830 Chas: more sort of subtlety and grace i'm like furiosa. 1108 01:16:09,590 --> 01:16:12,330 Tom: That is a an odd mix in 1109 01:16:12,330 --> 01:16:16,290 Tom: that for it is such an odd criticism of 1110 01:16:16,290 --> 01:16:19,650 Tom: calling something obvious it's bizarre 1111 01:16:19,650 --> 01:16:23,350 Tom: to me now untruthful uninteresting 1112 01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:26,430 Tom: so obvious to the point where i didn't believe 1113 01:16:26,430 --> 01:16:29,450 Tom: the moment like i get that but 1114 01:16:29,450 --> 01:16:32,150 Tom: that's the problem isn't obvious the problem is you didn't believe the 1115 01:16:32,150 --> 01:16:36,170 Tom: moment like it didn't make you feel anything um 1116 01:16:36,170 --> 01:16:43,870 Tom: and and so you know translating that or interpreting that as obvious is i i 1117 01:16:43,870 --> 01:16:47,970 Tom: don't want to dive down the argument or like down this road but It really is 1118 01:16:47,970 --> 01:16:55,090 Tom: such an elitist interpretation of it should like some people shouldn't get it. 1119 01:16:55,270 --> 01:16:57,490 Tom: I should be the only one who gets it. 1120 01:16:58,590 --> 01:17:01,490 Tom: And if other people get it, it bugs me. 1121 01:17:02,590 --> 01:17:05,490 Tom: That's kind of like the heart of an elitist argument. 1122 01:17:05,830 --> 01:17:13,490 Chas: Yeah, well, I think there seemed to be a conflation between subtlety and originality, right? 1123 01:17:13,650 --> 01:17:22,550 Chas: That because there's no audience reaching for meaning, that means the experience 1124 01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:25,170 Chas: is uniform and unoriginal. 1125 01:17:25,170 --> 01:17:29,850 Chas: Whereas the substance, I mean, we should probably summarize it at some point. 1126 01:17:30,010 --> 01:17:33,770 Chas: And Stu, you've seen it more recently than me or Tom, if you're keen to have 1127 01:17:33,770 --> 01:17:37,470 Chas: a go at summarizing the substance by all means. 1128 01:17:37,630 --> 01:17:41,310 Chas: But it was a completely original experience for me. 1129 01:17:41,310 --> 01:17:46,190 Tom: Yeah. From every perspective. How it was filmed, how it was told. 1130 01:17:47,090 --> 01:17:51,310 Tom: There's certainly thematically, I would say, maybe it's not the most original, 1131 01:17:51,330 --> 01:17:56,250 Tom: but it's universal and it's a tale as old as time. 1132 01:17:57,070 --> 01:18:03,490 Tom: It is the heart of human nature of feeling like you're aging out of life. 1133 01:18:04,050 --> 01:18:10,310 Tom: And what do you do about it? Do you embrace where you are or do you try to recapture youth? 1134 01:18:11,330 --> 01:18:16,870 Tom: And it's told from the perspective of a celebrity, but that's also just a plain 1135 01:18:16,870 --> 01:18:18,950 Tom: old, you could have a midlife crisis. 1136 01:18:19,150 --> 01:18:22,050 Tom: You could have told that exact same story from a 52-year-old. 1137 01:18:22,130 --> 01:18:26,950 Tom: You could have told the exact same story, and they do, from an 80-year-old who does it. 1138 01:18:27,490 --> 01:18:29,850 Tom: And then they get to the younger version of themselves. 1139 01:18:30,710 --> 01:18:35,670 Tom: And to me, what makes it original is how they told this story. 1140 01:18:36,730 --> 01:18:41,050 Tom: And how surreal the editing is. 1141 01:18:41,310 --> 01:18:45,910 Tom: Like the choices it makes, all the things that it doesn't even bother to explain. 1142 01:18:47,310 --> 01:18:52,990 Chas: And just to be clear, I know you guys are both, we've got an Australian phrase 1143 01:18:52,990 --> 01:18:57,130 Chas: here, Tom, maybe you know it from your time here of paying that you both are paying me out. 1144 01:18:57,250 --> 01:19:01,550 Chas: You're both teasing me for choosing 67 pages of script. 1145 01:19:01,850 --> 01:19:06,790 Chas: But what I really want, my experience of the film was when I was watching it, 1146 01:19:07,390 --> 01:19:09,770 Chas: was that it ended multiple times. 1147 01:19:09,870 --> 01:19:15,390 Chas: It was almost Lord of the Rings in its like, oh, and here's another ending and 1148 01:19:15,390 --> 01:19:18,910 Chas: here's another ending. I kept expecting a cut to black, and then there was another 1149 01:19:18,910 --> 01:19:24,250 Chas: sequence where it was making the exact same point, but just as due to what you said earlier. 1150 01:19:24,410 --> 01:19:24,630 Tom: Yeah. 1151 01:19:24,790 --> 01:19:27,910 Chas: But it escalated, so it just kept ending, escalating, ending, 1152 01:19:28,130 --> 01:19:32,870 Chas: escalating, ending, escalating along the same point, and it was just hammering home its meaning. 1153 01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:38,850 Stu: In some ways, it's by the by. I actually found the script, reading the script 1154 01:19:38,850 --> 01:19:46,550 Stu: ending was a lot more of a forward, cohesive experience than the ending of the film itself. 1155 01:19:46,550 --> 01:19:50,690 Stu: The one thing the script did is ended up making a joke of the Flash titles, 1156 01:19:50,890 --> 01:19:56,010 Stu: you know, because we've got the three characters and it kind of introduces their 1157 01:19:56,010 --> 01:19:58,370 Stu: names in these big, bold fonts. 1158 01:19:58,570 --> 01:20:05,590 Stu: And then Monstro Ella Sue is kind of on the screen. And in the film, it's the last one. 1159 01:20:05,810 --> 01:20:10,370 Stu: But at the end of the script, that actually turns into a gag because every version 1160 01:20:10,370 --> 01:20:12,630 Stu: of her that falls off gets its own title card. 1161 01:20:13,770 --> 01:20:16,490 Stu: And in some ways, that actually makes it feel more cohesive to me. 1162 01:20:16,550 --> 01:20:23,850 Stu: But I think what I kind of reacted to in this sequence, what I reacted to was 1163 01:20:23,850 --> 01:20:26,610 Stu: it still tried to give us insight and access to the character. 1164 01:20:26,890 --> 01:20:27,410 Chas: Definitely. 1165 01:20:27,650 --> 01:20:30,070 Stu: Of these 60 billion pages you've sent us, Chad. 1166 01:20:32,530 --> 01:20:36,810 Stu: What I picked up on was just after it introduced the text, I actually love that 1167 01:20:36,810 --> 01:20:41,330 Stu: it actually uses the giant font. 1168 01:20:41,490 --> 01:20:48,070 Stu: It uses literal big print in the actual script. and uses like big Helvetica 1169 01:20:48,070 --> 01:20:51,250 Stu: fawn against black in the script to give us that experience. 1170 01:20:51,470 --> 01:20:55,210 Stu: But it's this bit after we've introduced the monster. So she's, 1171 01:20:55,230 --> 01:20:58,510 Stu: she's cloned herself using the technology. 1172 01:20:58,710 --> 01:20:59,990 Tom: Should we summarize the. 1173 01:21:00,110 --> 01:21:02,090 Stu: Oh, I thought we, I thought, sorry. 1174 01:21:02,510 --> 01:21:06,930 Tom: No, we kept, I kept talking. Chaz offered, do you want to summarize it? 1175 01:21:06,990 --> 01:21:08,710 Tom: And I said, I have an opinion instead. 1176 01:21:09,770 --> 01:21:15,530 Tom: So, uh, I, I would be happy to try to summarize this and I'd be curious, curious. 1177 01:21:15,790 --> 01:21:23,930 Tom: It's, It is about a celebrity fitness trainer who is on TV and played by Demi Moore. 1178 01:21:24,070 --> 01:21:27,130 Tom: And she gets older and she gets older. 1179 01:21:27,570 --> 01:21:32,550 Tom: And it's very, very clear they want to replace her. I believe she even gets fired. 1180 01:21:32,870 --> 01:21:40,690 Tom: And she gets a message about the substance, which offers her essentially youth back. 1181 01:21:41,090 --> 01:21:44,870 Tom: And she takes the substance. She injects herself. South. 1182 01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:51,360 Tom: Just kind of throwing herself into the void, no real idea of what's going to happen. 1183 01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:59,520 Tom: And as a result, a younger version of herself crawls out of her back. 1184 01:22:00,740 --> 01:22:06,800 Tom: And there are now two versions of herself, herself and a quote-unquote better 1185 01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:08,700 Tom: younger version of herself. 1186 01:22:09,060 --> 01:22:13,940 Tom: But they are different people, but yet they are the same spirit. 1187 01:22:13,940 --> 01:22:19,940 Tom: And as the movie keeps reminding us and them that you are one, you are one. 1188 01:22:20,060 --> 01:22:26,680 Tom: But you can only be conscious in one, only one body can be conscious at a time. 1189 01:22:26,860 --> 01:22:30,940 Tom: But as the younger version keeps grabbing more and more of her time, 1190 01:22:31,420 --> 01:22:37,780 Tom: she is stealing time from the older version of herself and then mutating her 1191 01:22:37,780 --> 01:22:43,720 Tom: body more and more until she turns into a, you think, 1192 01:22:43,940 --> 01:22:51,100 Tom: the total monstrosity and then uh her younger version of herself until the younger 1193 01:22:51,100 --> 01:22:58,200 Tom: until the older regular monstrosity is like i've had enough and she tries to kill the other version. 1194 01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,460 Chas: Yeah i mean they both try to kill each other so and. 1195 01:23:01,460 --> 01:23:06,020 Tom: Then she when she realizes yeah they kill each other or try to kill each other. 1196 01:23:06,020 --> 01:23:12,200 Chas: So so the the the demi moore character is called elizabeth and the younger better 1197 01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:13,860 Chas: version played by margaret qualley 1198 01:23:13,860 --> 01:23:20,060 Chas: is called sue yeah and yeah i mean it's it's a wonderful scene it's. 1199 01:23:20,060 --> 01:23:23,480 Tom: Even more surreal than the scenario i just gave you. 1200 01:23:23,480 --> 01:23:30,140 Chas: Yeah i mean surreal is right maybe maybe this film doesn't have subtext because 1201 01:23:30,140 --> 01:23:32,700 Chas: it has because it's surreal it's. 1202 01:23:32,700 --> 01:23:38,200 Tom: A very dreamlike it's a very dreamlike it's it's edited like a dream it ends 1203 01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:42,440 Tom: like the final final phase of a of a bad nightmare. 1204 01:23:42,440 --> 01:23:47,580 Chas: Yeah but in amongst all of that in these multiple endings in this long extended 1205 01:23:47,580 --> 01:23:53,740 Chas: sequence where the film ends sue you were observing that the the the big print 1206 01:23:53,740 --> 01:23:57,960 Chas: or the action lines of the script still are trying to put us in the characters 1207 01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:00,680 Chas: understanding or perspective So. 1208 01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:06,080 Stu: The moment I'm reacting to is we see this vicious, violent fight between Elizabeth and Sue. 1209 01:24:07,020 --> 01:24:07,140 Tom: Ugh. 1210 01:24:07,480 --> 01:24:12,140 Excerpts: Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! 1211 01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:15,520 Excerpts: Ah! Ah! Ah! 1212 01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:24,000 Stu: Elizabeth lies dying. Sue kind of goes to do her New Year's Eve party. 1213 01:24:24,180 --> 01:24:30,060 Stu: And that, in a way, acts as a talisman in the film. There's basically a billboard 1214 01:24:30,060 --> 01:24:32,620 Stu: sign, the world's biggest billboard, right out her window. 1215 01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:36,620 Stu: That she always glances to. And 1216 01:24:36,620 --> 01:24:40,220 Stu: it's interesting looking at the script as they've cut dialogue from it. 1217 01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,680 Stu: There's these people that call her and stuff. And now she just needs to look 1218 01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:46,300 Stu: at the billboard and we get everything we need from it. 1219 01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:50,720 Stu: Uh, and she goes to the new year's party and she starts literally falling apart. 1220 01:24:51,020 --> 01:24:55,840 Stu: Teeth fall out, her ear falls off. So she comes back with this plan to make 1221 01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:59,920 Stu: a better, younger, younger and better version of herself. And this is the young Sue. 1222 01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:05,960 Stu: So Sue injects herself with the, the substance and we have a horrific thing 1223 01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:10,180 Stu: and she emerges as like a Cronenbergian monster, right? 1224 01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:13,300 Stu: Like straight out of, I was going to say Rick and Morty 1225 01:25:13,300 --> 01:25:16,160 Stu: because the Cronenbergians are in rick and morty but 1226 01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:19,440 Stu: they got their name from someone i don't know who they 1227 01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:22,180 Stu: would call cronenberg after and we get 1228 01:25:22,180 --> 01:25:24,900 Stu: the monster lsu right and so 1229 01:25:24,900 --> 01:25:27,920 Stu: in the script and i love this in the script they have literal big print 1230 01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:30,760 Stu: they've got in giant white text against a 1231 01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:33,500 Stu: black block monster lsu and they use this 1232 01:25:33,500 --> 01:25:36,260 Stu: device uh in the script which i love it 1233 01:25:36,260 --> 01:25:39,700 Stu: is the experience of the film in the script of how impactful 1234 01:25:39,700 --> 01:25:42,620 Stu: those moments are a monstrous vision a being 1235 01:25:42,620 --> 01:25:45,800 Stu: with a hybrid face shapeless and hideous chaotic cellular 1236 01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:49,320 Stu: growth body parts placed haphazardly all the wrong places this 1237 01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:51,960 Stu: is how they describe describe her but then we have a 1238 01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:56,240 Stu: moment when she looks herself in in the mirror and she 1239 01:25:56,240 --> 01:25:59,820 Stu: wipes her mouth and turns her head from right to left as she looks at herself 1240 01:25:59,820 --> 01:26:04,760 Stu: in the mirror she's strangely calm as if this monstrous vision didn't scare 1241 01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:10,520 Stu: her almost fascinating her as if it pleased her as if she was truly seeing herself 1242 01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:13,940 Stu: for the very first time and finally accepting herself. 1243 01:26:14,710 --> 01:26:18,470 Stu: And then it says a little bit later on, because we see her try to get ready 1244 01:26:18,470 --> 01:26:20,330 Stu: for the New Year's Eve party, 1245 01:26:20,710 --> 01:26:25,090 Stu: she has the exact same gestures of vanity as if everything were normal, 1246 01:26:25,390 --> 01:26:30,330 Stu: which is even more weird and scary, giving her completely monstrous appearance. 1247 01:26:30,930 --> 01:26:34,790 Stu: So there's two things going here. There's the subtext for the actor, 1248 01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:39,330 Stu: which is you're going to look at yourself and you're going to accept yourself, 1249 01:26:39,330 --> 01:26:42,950 Stu: even though you're this monster. And then there's this big print, 1250 01:26:43,130 --> 01:26:45,010 Stu: which I understand now what it is. 1251 01:26:45,150 --> 01:26:49,250 Stu: It's this kind of filmmaker storyteller subtext, which is, this is going to 1252 01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:55,090 Stu: be weird and scary because she's acting if everything's completely normal and it isn't. 1253 01:26:55,210 --> 01:26:57,350 Stu: And so it's telling us in the big print. 1254 01:26:57,510 --> 01:27:02,070 Stu: And yes, this is literalism, but it is actually a pretty good indication of 1255 01:27:02,070 --> 01:27:05,730 Stu: the tone she's going for in this end part of the film. 1256 01:27:05,730 --> 01:27:11,830 Stu: And it is fascinating to watch because for me, my experience of this, 1257 01:27:12,050 --> 01:27:17,130 Stu: I didn't get the idea that Monster LSU was accepting herself truly. 1258 01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:24,490 Stu: What I got was the disconnect between her unable to see what she looked like, right? 1259 01:27:24,730 --> 01:27:31,890 Stu: And the weirdness of it, right? And for me, the film didn't completely stick the landing. 1260 01:27:31,890 --> 01:27:36,290 Stu: I was confused by what it was trying to say because it's this idea of she's 1261 01:27:36,290 --> 01:27:42,490 Stu: going through the routine and she is acting like nothing has changed, right? 1262 01:27:42,670 --> 01:27:46,830 Stu: And she goes up on stage. So I guess I did get that from a plot point of view, 1263 01:27:46,930 --> 01:27:50,950 Stu: this idea that she's going to go, that she's not shocked by her hideous anymore. 1264 01:27:57,130 --> 01:28:02,190 Excerpts: I'm so happy to be with you tonight. 1265 01:28:13,610 --> 01:28:18,970 Stu: But then everyone turns around and calls her a freak and attacks her. 1266 01:28:21,450 --> 01:28:23,070 Excerpts: The monster! 1267 01:28:31,350 --> 01:28:38,490 Excerpts: Shoot the monster! It's a freak! No. Shoot the monster! 1268 01:28:39,730 --> 01:28:42,150 Excerpts: Don't whisper! Monster! 1269 01:28:43,650 --> 01:28:46,630 Stu: And ultimately she dies on her 1270 01:28:46,630 --> 01:28:49,690 Stu: star and so the film was kind of saying to me 1271 01:28:49,690 --> 01:28:52,550 Stu: that she was wrong to to finally 1272 01:28:52,550 --> 01:28:55,650 Stu: accept herself and that really she should have stayed herself 1273 01:28:55,650 --> 01:28:59,990 Stu: as sue that's kind of the complexity like i wasn't sure what the the meaning 1274 01:28:59,990 --> 01:29:05,930 Stu: of the film was in that contradiction right i mean that's just a personal experience 1275 01:29:05,930 --> 01:29:09,830 Stu: from a writing point of view what i picked up on is it still gave us access 1276 01:29:09,830 --> 01:29:13,510 Stu: to character and it gave us the tonal aspects, 1277 01:29:13,770 --> 01:29:16,050 Stu: the, the, the film make, the storyteller's subtext. 1278 01:29:16,250 --> 01:29:20,150 Stu: He was trying to bring that out on the page. So we understood the tension. 1279 01:29:20,510 --> 01:29:25,130 Chas: Yeah. And can I, can I highlight one other moment that I thought was excellently 1280 01:29:25,130 --> 01:29:30,710 Chas: written, which was before she converts into the monster, when Sue has murdered 1281 01:29:30,710 --> 01:29:35,110 Chas: Elizabeth and she's gone to the studio and bits are starting to fall off her. 1282 01:29:35,110 --> 01:29:43,310 Chas: And the action lines read, her toothless smile gets bigger and bigger like the 1283 01:29:43,310 --> 01:29:47,390 Chas: black holes of a harmonica, a black hole into hell. 1284 01:29:47,610 --> 01:29:53,850 Chas: She stares down at the three teeth in the palm of her hand, the enormous and bloody roots. 1285 01:29:54,110 --> 01:29:58,970 Chas: It's as if her hidden dark side was suddenly coming to light. 1286 01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:11,000 Chas: So, yes, it's not necessarily playable. It's telling us what the metaphor is. 1287 01:30:11,180 --> 01:30:14,760 Chas: It's telling us, the reader, the meaning that we might not get from screen. 1288 01:30:14,820 --> 01:30:16,980 Chas: But it is what I find interesting. 1289 01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:22,340 Chas: And in a film that's so much about theme, it is still deeply focused in what 1290 01:30:22,340 --> 01:30:27,400 Chas: this means to Sue or to Monstro-Elysis. 1291 01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:35,400 Chas: Eli Sue. um but yeah tom what because i don't think you hadn't seen the substance 1292 01:30:35,400 --> 01:30:38,340 Chas: until i suggested it for this. 1293 01:30:38,340 --> 01:30:43,300 Tom: Uh topic i i can't remember the chronology but i i i certainly i think it was 1294 01:30:43,300 --> 01:30:47,120 Tom: somewhere around the same time so i either had just seen it or this motivated 1295 01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:56,180 Tom: me to like oh damn we're gonna talk sometime in the next 18 months i need i need to re see this movie, 1296 01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:01,380 Tom: Yeah, I still am, 1297 01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:11,720 Tom: On the fence about this As far as the subtext goes Because I don't think The, 1298 01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:18,700 Tom: Like the filmmaker And what's going on Everything seems to be completely in 1299 01:31:18,700 --> 01:31:25,520 Tom: sync to me And I love it Don't get me wrong I love it But I still feel like, 1300 01:31:26,180 --> 01:31:28,660 Tom: Maybe, um... 1301 01:31:29,270 --> 01:31:35,950 Tom: You know, like there is certainly these moments of like she puts a picture of her old self on her face. 1302 01:31:36,530 --> 01:31:37,090 Stu: Right. 1303 01:31:37,290 --> 01:31:43,370 Tom: Like there's clearly and and this is total denial. She's in total denial of what's going on. 1304 01:31:43,950 --> 01:31:48,230 Tom: And but then everyone kind of buys it for like when she enters, 1305 01:31:48,630 --> 01:31:51,830 Tom: like they accept that she has this picture on her face. 1306 01:31:51,830 --> 01:31:55,070 Tom: So that was kind of 1307 01:31:55,070 --> 01:31:58,510 Tom: when like you would think it was when the person crawled 1308 01:31:58,510 --> 01:32:01,550 Tom: out of the other person's back that i 1309 01:32:01,550 --> 01:32:05,110 Tom: would have went oh this is a surreal story but it 1310 01:32:05,110 --> 01:32:08,050 Tom: it really was it it wasn't until 1311 01:32:08,050 --> 01:32:11,350 Tom: like there was just moments of no no obvious 1312 01:32:11,350 --> 01:32:14,350 Tom: emotional truth to it where i 1313 01:32:14,350 --> 01:32:17,150 Tom: went oh this is very dreamlike this is 1314 01:32:17,150 --> 01:32:20,430 Tom: surreal this is this doesn't care anymore 1315 01:32:20,430 --> 01:32:24,030 Tom: this only cares about the raw emotion not 1316 01:32:24,030 --> 01:32:30,170 Tom: necessarily the emotional truth of plot or anything like that so you know like 1317 01:32:30,170 --> 01:32:36,010 Tom: you stew i i did not get the sense of acceptance i got the opposite sense of 1318 01:32:36,010 --> 01:32:41,570 Tom: denial yeah of i will just put a picture on my face and pretend that that's me. 1319 01:32:42,570 --> 01:32:49,030 Tom: And, you know, there's no good reason from a story point of view to just hose 1320 01:32:49,030 --> 01:32:55,990 Tom: down that house with blood and gush other than just punishment. 1321 01:32:55,990 --> 01:32:58,290 Tom: You know, like you're involved in this too. 1322 01:32:58,570 --> 01:33:03,070 Tom: Like the audience is just as at fault for all of this. 1323 01:33:03,070 --> 01:33:05,890 Tom: Not only not only you're applauding but your 1324 01:33:05,890 --> 01:33:09,230 Tom: sudden hatred as well and so everyone here 1325 01:33:09,230 --> 01:33:15,470 Tom: is going to get what they deserve uh because plot wise that it makes no sense 1326 01:33:15,470 --> 01:33:20,150 Tom: you know like there's just there's there's not enough blood in that little body 1327 01:33:20,150 --> 01:33:27,790 Tom: uh but it's like so for me as far as like the subtext goes i definitely lean more into i think this is, 1328 01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:35,600 Tom: I define theme as the ideas and values that are rewarded or punished within 1329 01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:39,400 Tom: a movie and within a story. And that's it. 1330 01:33:39,780 --> 01:33:44,600 Tom: You know, like characters behave a certain way and certain actions are rewarded 1331 01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:46,020 Tom: or certain actions are punished. 1332 01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:53,400 Tom: And whatever those ideas and values that get you to the end is essentially a theme. 1333 01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:57,720 Tom: And if you want to make a thematic statement out of it, you certainly can too. 1334 01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:07,600 Tom: So uh to me this this third act is pure resolution of a thematic statement yeah. 1335 01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,680 Stu: Yeah so that's what you mean by the word punishment she's 1336 01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:15,600 Stu: not i mean she has literally punished them by spying with blood but you're talking 1337 01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:22,200 Stu: about the the consequences of this thematic idea being explored the values ends 1338 01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:23,740 Stu: up in the people that follow those 1339 01:34:23,740 --> 01:34:27,840 Stu: values being punished for those values right is that what do you mean. 1340 01:34:27,840 --> 01:34:30,720 Tom: Yes rewarded or punished but yeah 1341 01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:33,900 Tom: like you look at her decisions of she was unable 1342 01:34:33,900 --> 01:34:36,780 Tom: to accept herself right like 1343 01:34:36,780 --> 01:34:40,000 Tom: and she was punished for it and in the 1344 01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:43,180 Tom: end all these people uh who put who 1345 01:34:43,180 --> 01:34:46,120 Tom: put this value onto we just want 1346 01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:49,980 Tom: we're going to throw away the old one we want the new one um 1347 01:34:49,980 --> 01:34:52,800 Tom: and so that value is 1348 01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:55,660 Tom: is essentially punished now you could certainly reward that 1349 01:34:55,660 --> 01:34:58,460 Tom: with irony and go well that wins you 1350 01:34:58,460 --> 01:35:01,320 Tom: know like valuing that but they don't really go that 1351 01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:04,260 Tom: way of like it like we've we got rid 1352 01:35:04,260 --> 01:35:07,240 Tom: of the old person and we all were rewarded for it 1353 01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:10,260 Tom: and so like there isn't that thematic 1354 01:35:10,260 --> 01:35:13,260 Tom: statement about yeah that wins that point of view 1355 01:35:13,260 --> 01:35:16,720 Tom: wins always get rid of the old person you 1356 01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:19,620 Tom: know like that's so like 1357 01:35:19,620 --> 01:35:23,040 Tom: i still struggle whereas like with the tarantino scene 1358 01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:26,980 Tom: like that that idea of filmmaker storyteller 1359 01:35:26,980 --> 01:35:32,680 Tom: subtext rings very very true and and it's such a great way to look at it i never 1360 01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:36,560 Tom: looked at it that way before and i really appreciate it this one i still struggle 1361 01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:42,660 Tom: because it's everything is so in line with itself uh thematically that i feel 1362 01:35:42,660 --> 01:35:46,040 Tom: like it's it's broaching into that territory yeah. 1363 01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:50,560 Stu: I i guess maybe what it is is just irony Right? 1364 01:35:50,820 --> 01:35:54,800 Stu: Irony, the structure, is something that the filmmakers have control over. 1365 01:35:55,100 --> 01:35:58,760 Stu: Right? We have control over tone, but we've got control over irony. 1366 01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:00,840 Stu: So... 1367 01:36:02,720 --> 01:36:06,740 Stu: There's obviously irony at work with Inglourious Bastards. We've got the story 1368 01:36:06,740 --> 01:36:10,360 Stu: in our head of we know who he is. We know she is. 1369 01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:14,820 Stu: You know, so we've got the two stories coming back to where we're in the beginning. 1370 01:36:15,100 --> 01:36:19,020 Stu: Right. And there is a slight disconnect between the story in our head and the 1371 01:36:19,020 --> 01:36:22,900 Stu: story in his head. We're kind of filling the void of it. 1372 01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:28,800 Stu: And here there is irony in which the script is trying to paint for us, 1373 01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:32,420 Stu: which is that she's acting completely normally, even 1374 01:36:32,420 --> 01:36:35,460 Stu: though it's really weird and gross and we can interpret that in in 1375 01:36:35,460 --> 01:36:38,200 Stu: at least two ways which is she's accepting who she 1376 01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:41,020 Stu: is or she's in denial of who she is 1377 01:36:41,020 --> 01:36:45,700 Stu: yeah i don't think there is i don't think the film tells us which one that is 1378 01:36:45,700 --> 01:36:49,400 Stu: i think probably i read it like you was denial i think that's a better word 1379 01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:53,100 Stu: uh even though the script's saying that she's accepted but i feel like that 1380 01:36:53,100 --> 01:36:59,920 Stu: is kind of sitting as a just a tool right like in some ways is a theme or is it subtext, 1381 01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:04,940 Stu: does it matter i'm not sure right like this this. 1382 01:37:04,940 --> 01:37:06,400 Tom: Is all fun conversation. 1383 01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:09,160 Stu: Does it really matter like yeah as a 1384 01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:12,340 Stu: story as a as a as a storyteller both 1385 01:37:12,340 --> 01:37:15,180 Stu: as a screenwriter and as a director it's about what tools can i use 1386 01:37:15,180 --> 01:37:18,080 Stu: to create the emotions that i want right and what's interesting 1387 01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:22,020 Stu: is there is kind of an absence of tactics here not 1388 01:37:22,020 --> 01:37:25,200 Stu: quite true like she's definitely trying to not reveal something 1389 01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:28,180 Stu: about her i love that idea of tactics is about not 1390 01:37:28,180 --> 01:37:31,080 Stu: revealing stuff so her tactics is when 1391 01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:33,800 Stu: her teeth are falling out she tries to in the script they cut 1392 01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:37,440 Stu: it out of the movie in the script she tries to glue the teeth back in yeah right 1393 01:37:37,440 --> 01:37:41,420 Stu: so she's trying to not reveal that she's falling apart until she can no longer 1394 01:37:41,420 --> 01:37:45,600 Stu: do that and she goes to go and find a new tactic which is inject herself with 1395 01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:50,040 Stu: substance so there is stuff going on and then i suppose her then dressing herself 1396 01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:53,240 Stu: up in the dress and sticking the face on is this tactic, 1397 01:37:53,860 --> 01:37:57,540 Stu: of my goal is to still do the show. So it's, 1398 01:37:58,150 --> 01:38:04,190 Stu: in there but it's not um there's no oppositional force yeah you know there's 1399 01:38:04,190 --> 01:38:09,270 Stu: no verne that she's trying to convince you know there's no opposition to her 1400 01:38:09,270 --> 01:38:13,530 Stu: like the ad just lets her in as you say i mean i kind of buy that the idea is 1401 01:38:13,530 --> 01:38:16,050 Stu: thank fuck the talent here is just go go go go go go, 1402 01:38:17,130 --> 01:38:20,870 Stu: someone else someone else makeup will deal with this wardrobe will deal with 1403 01:38:20,870 --> 01:38:25,510 Stu: what they turn up with i'm just the ad i get you to sit right yeah okay. 1404 01:38:25,510 --> 01:38:29,470 Chas: I mean the in the script i can't remember if they've edited it out of the movie, 1405 01:38:29,610 --> 01:38:31,410 Chas: but the AD letting her in is a fantasy. 1406 01:38:31,650 --> 01:38:38,490 Chas: It's what she's imagining happens when she knocks on the door and then it comes 1407 01:38:38,490 --> 01:38:44,510 Chas: back and she's still outside the door and the action line of the script actually 1408 01:38:44,510 --> 01:38:49,230 Chas: calls it out that the fictitious bubble has been burst. 1409 01:38:49,570 --> 01:38:53,530 Chas: But I do think there is an antagonist. The audience is the antagonist, 1410 01:38:53,530 --> 01:38:56,610 Chas: right her tactic is to stand up on stage and 1411 01:38:56,610 --> 01:39:00,090 Chas: say love me the looking the way that i do and 1412 01:39:00,090 --> 01:39:02,830 Chas: she wants them to explain she wants she's trying to explain she's trying 1413 01:39:02,830 --> 01:39:06,530 Chas: to tell them it's still me it's still sue it's still the person that you love 1414 01:39:06,530 --> 01:39:09,410 Chas: yeah and they're they they can't and 1415 01:39:09,410 --> 01:39:13,390 Chas: they they turn on her but that that's getting it's 1416 01:39:13,390 --> 01:39:16,590 Chas: so sort of not the point of what the 1417 01:39:16,590 --> 01:39:20,850 Chas: the text is trying to tell us that like who 1418 01:39:20,850 --> 01:39:23,870 Chas: monster Eliza suit like Sue I think I think 1419 01:39:23,870 --> 01:39:28,290 Chas: you're right it's only after you pointed out to me the biggest contradiction 1420 01:39:28,290 --> 01:39:33,950 Chas: within the story as it's being presented to us is her stapling the face or sticking 1421 01:39:33,950 --> 01:39:39,690 Chas: the face of the Demi Moore of Elizabeth onto her face if she had truly accepted 1422 01:39:39,690 --> 01:39:42,370 Chas: herself and loves what she was seeing she wouldn't. 1423 01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:46,200 Chas: Yeah do that so the i 1424 01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:49,560 Chas: think the script is telling us that monster eliza sue accepts 1425 01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:52,680 Chas: us and i felt watching it that it 1426 01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:57,200 Chas: wasn't so much denial just like it was compulsion like i have to go to the show 1427 01:39:57,200 --> 01:40:04,640 Chas: even though i now right look like this like the the i have no choice so it's 1428 01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:09,820 Chas: interesting that we've all got different reads yeah of that ending so. 1429 01:40:09,820 --> 01:40:11,400 Tom: Much for obvious Yes. 1430 01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:17,960 Stu: Yeah, exactly. I was thinking the same thing. For a film that's meant to be 1431 01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:20,500 Stu: literal, we're all like, oh, subtle interpretations. 1432 01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:23,860 Stu: And maybe that was the point of the ending. 1433 01:40:24,020 --> 01:40:29,020 Stu: What they're trying to go for is to escalate into that kind of more what we 1434 01:40:29,020 --> 01:40:31,880 Stu: would, what Chaz and I would call a thematic sequence. 1435 01:40:32,580 --> 01:40:37,260 Stu: That there's kind of like a Brechtian distancing effect that's meant to make 1436 01:40:37,260 --> 01:40:38,700 Stu: us go, what is this all about? 1437 01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:41,940 Stu: What are you trying to say? and have those discussions about, 1438 01:40:42,240 --> 01:40:45,200 Stu: you know, on another level, it's younger Sue. 1439 01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:47,380 Stu: It would have been interesting if it was younger Sue stapling, 1440 01:40:47,660 --> 01:40:51,040 Stu: like she stapled young Sue's, young Sue's, there's only one Sue. 1441 01:40:51,340 --> 01:40:54,780 Stu: Instead of Elizabeth's face, it's Sue's face. So it's, you know, 1442 01:40:54,940 --> 01:40:57,400 Stu: Sue has always been like, I'm the young person, I'm amazing. 1443 01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:02,620 Stu: Suddenly getting the experience of being no longer wanted, right, and desired. 1444 01:41:03,580 --> 01:41:09,640 Stu: But I mean, I think it's the symbolism is there. It's women destroying themselves 1445 01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:15,380 Stu: and their bodies to appease others, you know, appease this kind of patriarchal, 1446 01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:17,120 Stu: misogynistic culture, right? 1447 01:41:17,260 --> 01:41:19,420 Stu: And in the script, and I don't think it's as much in the movie, 1448 01:41:19,900 --> 01:41:23,080 Stu: like Alan in the script clearly gets fired for what he has done. 1449 01:41:23,260 --> 01:41:29,240 Stu: So, as you say, he is punished for the consequences of his decisions, right? 1450 01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:34,220 Stu: But I don't think it changes anything. I mean, maybe that's the cynicism of 1451 01:41:34,220 --> 01:41:39,960 Stu: the script, right? that Alan is now, he's just going to get replaced by someone else. 1452 01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:42,840 Stu: They'll find someone else new and younger to replace Alan. 1453 01:41:43,180 --> 01:41:43,580 Tom: Yeah. 1454 01:41:43,900 --> 01:41:46,840 Stu: And they're all just going to forget who Elizabeth is. 1455 01:41:46,940 --> 01:41:53,900 Stu: I mean, I love the symbolism and the imagery of the star that it opens and closes with. 1456 01:41:54,040 --> 01:41:56,620 Stu: The star on the sidewalk, the overhead shock, amazing. 1457 01:41:56,820 --> 01:41:57,260 Tom: Oh, yeah. 1458 01:41:57,340 --> 01:42:02,240 Stu: And I think this is part of what makes this film work, is the two previous scenes 1459 01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:03,660 Stu: that we did are very dialogue heavy. 1460 01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:04,440 Chas: Right? 1461 01:42:04,440 --> 01:42:09,060 Stu: We're now doing something that's very imagistic. And I think part of what makes 1462 01:42:09,060 --> 01:42:11,900 Stu: its power is that it's... 1463 01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:17,020 Stu: As you say, it's all text, but the text isn't words. It's not what they're saying. 1464 01:42:17,020 --> 01:42:21,680 Stu: The text is in the imagery and the symbolism it's choosing to use. 1465 01:42:22,260 --> 01:42:22,800 Chas: Yeah. 1466 01:42:23,220 --> 01:42:29,240 Tom: And still, certainly there's so many memorable scenes in this movie. 1467 01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:35,060 Tom: But the one, my favorite scene is when she can't go out on that date to meet 1468 01:42:35,060 --> 01:42:38,000 Tom: on that date. She can't bring herself to do it. 1469 01:42:38,620 --> 01:42:40,940 Tom: That's the one that really sits with me. 1470 01:42:40,940 --> 01:42:42,420 Chas: And of. 1471 01:42:42,420 --> 01:42:48,640 Tom: Like it's how and he was kind of too late at that point but like it would have 1472 01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:52,860 Tom: been a different outcome if she was able to do it. 1473 01:42:52,860 --> 01:42:56,500 Chas: Yeah definitely because that was so we're talking about a scene where elizabeth 1474 01:42:56,500 --> 01:43:00,780 Chas: the demi moore character has actually bumped into an old i think high school 1475 01:43:00,780 --> 01:43:06,680 Chas: uh friend and he's asked her out on a date and so that is like and. 1476 01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:10,780 Stu: She decides to call him so that's early on and then she kind of is confronted 1477 01:43:10,780 --> 01:43:14,000 Stu: with people saying you have no value and she realized this is a guy who has 1478 01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,800 Stu: specifically said to her you're still the most beautiful person i've ever met. 1479 01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:17,240 Chas: Yeah so. 1480 01:43:17,240 --> 01:43:22,060 Stu: She decides to call him in a moment of connection right or seeking connection 1481 01:43:22,060 --> 01:43:24,100 Stu: and we feel hopeful for her yeah. 1482 01:43:24,100 --> 01:43:25,940 Tom: And then she stands the guy up. 1483 01:43:25,940 --> 01:43:28,980 Chas: And she she looks amazing she looks great yeah she she 1484 01:43:28,980 --> 01:43:32,000 Chas: can't she can't force herself to leave the apartment despite looking 1485 01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:34,920 Chas: amazing because she can't reach the 1486 01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:37,740 Chas: standards of beauty that she once had and that 1487 01:43:37,740 --> 01:43:43,000 Chas: sue has and it is devastating but you know talking about the argument like if 1488 01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:47,800 Chas: she had accepted herself looking the way she looked and left then she would 1489 01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:55,780 Chas: have been rewarded for for doing so and instead she is punished for buying into the yeah. 1490 01:43:55,780 --> 01:43:59,440 Stu: That is an amazing scene and that is a scene with with subtext. 1491 01:44:00,020 --> 01:44:00,900 Chas: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 1492 01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:01,340 Tom: Yeah. 1493 01:44:01,460 --> 01:44:06,080 Stu: Right? Because she can't confront the truth of who she is in that particular 1494 01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:09,480 Stu: scene. And what is interesting is, I mean, we've chosen the ending for a particular 1495 01:44:09,480 --> 01:44:12,420 Stu: reason because it is pushing more into the thematic. 1496 01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:16,280 Tom: Yeah. And, like, so much of subtext is your fear, you know, of, 1497 01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:17,800 Tom: like, what you don't reveal. 1498 01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:22,400 Tom: And so, like, because we tend to think in terms of tactics as what you want. 1499 01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:22,840 Chas: Yeah. 1500 01:44:23,020 --> 01:44:29,220 Tom: Which is true. Like, that's vitally important. But, like, a lot of times the obstacle is your fear. 1501 01:44:29,440 --> 01:44:32,420 Tom: You know like that and what she wanted was 1502 01:44:32,420 --> 01:44:35,380 Tom: a connection but her fear was stronger 1503 01:44:35,380 --> 01:44:40,120 Tom: yeah and and like you were you were it was so painful to watch because you knew 1504 01:44:40,120 --> 01:44:46,100 Tom: like just get over it yeah he's kind of weird like he's not he's not the superstar 1505 01:44:46,100 --> 01:44:50,200 Tom: you normally but like he actually likes you and thinks the world of you yeah 1506 01:44:50,200 --> 01:44:52,940 Tom: uh and she can't she just can't do it. 1507 01:44:55,140 --> 01:44:58,520 Excerpts: You're still the most beautiful girl in the whole wide world Okay. 1508 01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:12,300 Excerpts: Hello. Hi, Fred. It's Lizzie. 1509 01:45:15,900 --> 01:45:18,960 Excerpts: Hello sorry i mean i'm in shock 1510 01:45:18,960 --> 01:45:22,400 Excerpts: oh wow wow wow 1511 01:45:22,400 --> 01:45:27,760 Excerpts: i i thought i'd never hear from you again after oh gosh no no not at all i've 1512 01:45:27,760 --> 01:45:34,780 Excerpts: just i've just i've just been really busy lately so listen i was thinking that 1513 01:45:34,780 --> 01:45:39,680 Excerpts: maybe we could get together and grab a drink, 1514 01:45:44,880 --> 01:45:48,180 Excerpts: are you still there sorry i'm 1515 01:45:48,180 --> 01:45:58,240 Excerpts: i'm i'm in shock again i could book luigi's at eight eight at luigi's it is 1516 01:45:58,240 --> 01:46:05,520 Excerpts: i i will see you tonight bye okay bye. 1517 01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:16,400 Chas: So tom i'm aware that you've got to go in three minutes 1518 01:46:16,400 --> 01:46:19,600 Chas: yes so how we how we normally end this 1519 01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:22,460 Chas: is uh did you take any key 1520 01:46:22,460 --> 01:46:25,820 Chas: learnings from this exercise now acknowledging that 1521 01:46:25,820 --> 01:46:29,180 Chas: we came into this with your tools from your 1522 01:46:29,180 --> 01:46:36,200 Chas: um from your uh blog uh and sorry your newsletter that we will if anyone wants 1523 01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:41,020 Chas: to find tom's newsletter please check out the show notes but did this change 1524 01:46:41,020 --> 01:46:46,060 Chas: or expand your your views that subtext is overrated and it all comes back to 1525 01:46:46,060 --> 01:46:48,480 Chas: character tactics and fear uh. 1526 01:46:48,480 --> 01:46:52,660 Tom: I have not changed my uh my stance on. 1527 01:46:52,660 --> 01:46:54,000 Chas: That uh at. 1528 01:46:54,000 --> 01:47:00,120 Tom: All but to me like these are all good examples of of like how you approach it 1529 01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:06,240 Tom: and each time the story demanded the choices that were made in the scene And, 1530 01:47:06,240 --> 01:47:09,720 Tom: you know, you, like, where's the tension coming from? 1531 01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:13,000 Tom: Is the tension coming from the subtext where, like, thematically? 1532 01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:16,980 Tom: And so I think people get in trouble. We started talking about it. 1533 01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:20,260 Tom: Like, we opened the podcast with, you know, Stu talking about it. 1534 01:47:20,420 --> 01:47:23,520 Tom: Of, like, people, like, I want subtext in my scene. 1535 01:47:24,540 --> 01:47:28,800 Tom: And the scene will tell you if there's going to be subtext. 1536 01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:33,940 Tom: And how you choose to execute the scene will tell you. It is, it is... 1537 01:47:34,710 --> 01:47:40,970 Tom: Your tactic as the storyteller of whether you need subtext or not. 1538 01:47:41,330 --> 01:47:44,230 Tom: Subtext is a result. It's still just a result. 1539 01:47:44,390 --> 01:47:52,190 Tom: But I like your perspective of sometimes we give the audience subtext as filmmakers, as storytellers. 1540 01:47:52,350 --> 01:47:59,630 Tom: We imply a subtext that may not actually be there because of the way we constructed the scene. 1541 01:48:00,350 --> 01:48:04,330 Chas: Yeah. I'm not sure if I said this on mic or off mic. 1542 01:48:04,710 --> 01:48:11,490 Chas: But where I got to in doing this homework is there's subtext that the characters are aware of. 1543 01:48:11,590 --> 01:48:16,070 Chas: Am I trying to talk about something else than what I'm actually talking about? 1544 01:48:16,430 --> 01:48:20,610 Chas: And then there's the subtext that the filmmakers are in control of. 1545 01:48:20,730 --> 01:48:24,330 Chas: Am I wanting the audience to know that there's something else going on underneath 1546 01:48:24,330 --> 01:48:27,190 Chas: this scene than what the characters may or may not be aware of? 1547 01:48:27,190 --> 01:48:33,910 Chas: Like Hans Lander was completely oblivious to all the subtext of the scene in Inglourious Basterds. 1548 01:48:34,030 --> 01:48:34,450 Tom: Yes. 1549 01:48:34,570 --> 01:48:39,790 Chas: And I think focusing on what the audience is aware of coming into the scene 1550 01:48:39,790 --> 01:48:44,670 Chas: is just going to be way more powerful than focusing on the characters. 1551 01:48:45,330 --> 01:48:49,410 Chas: I mean, but maybe that's not fair. That was my understanding coming in. 1552 01:48:49,410 --> 01:48:54,770 Chas: But the Michael Clayton scene, the joy of that scene, why it's so exquisite 1553 01:48:54,770 --> 01:48:57,150 Chas: is purely from the characters and their tactics. 1554 01:48:57,630 --> 01:48:59,670 Tom: Right. But it's still there for us. 1555 01:49:00,070 --> 01:49:00,790 Chas: Yeah, definitely. 1556 01:49:01,030 --> 01:49:04,090 Stu: I mean, which is why we're privy to the scene, which is why we're seeing it. 1557 01:49:04,090 --> 01:49:04,210 Chas: Yeah. 1558 01:49:04,290 --> 01:49:08,590 Stu: The most fundamental choice of a storyteller is what scenes are you showing 1559 01:49:08,590 --> 01:49:10,170 Stu: the audience? We show them that scene. 1560 01:49:10,250 --> 01:49:14,230 Stu: We don't show the scene when they're choosing to plant the car bomb, 1561 01:49:14,590 --> 01:49:18,030 Stu: you know, give the decision to kill Michael Clayton, right? 1562 01:49:18,270 --> 01:49:18,470 Chas: Yeah. 1563 01:49:18,470 --> 01:49:22,410 Stu: So, I'm going to end with, and I love doing this, this is the car bomb at the 1564 01:49:22,410 --> 01:49:24,210 Stu: end of the episode. I didn't mention it earlier. 1565 01:49:24,570 --> 01:49:28,730 Stu: One of the few good YouTube videos I've seen on subtext, and I would use it 1566 01:49:28,730 --> 01:49:32,990 Stu: for teaching, is from the best screenwriting channel, I think, on YouTube. 1567 01:49:33,810 --> 01:49:37,830 Stu: Because they basically think like how we think, which is called Raising the 1568 01:49:37,830 --> 01:49:39,890 Stu: Stakes. And they've got a video on what is subtext. 1569 01:49:40,070 --> 01:49:45,090 Stu: I may just define it as the gap between explicit meaning and implicit meaning. 1570 01:49:45,650 --> 01:49:48,590 Tom: It's my buddy Jonathan's chow. 1571 01:49:48,770 --> 01:49:50,090 Stu: Oh, well, there you go. It's great. 1572 01:49:50,470 --> 01:49:52,050 Tom: Yeah. Jonathan's fantastic. 1573 01:49:52,430 --> 01:49:56,510 Stu: And what I like about this presentation is that subtext is a spectrum. 1574 01:49:56,730 --> 01:50:01,190 Stu: If it's just the gap between explicit and implicit meaning, right, it can vary. 1575 01:50:01,370 --> 01:50:05,710 Stu: And so I think the question when someone goes, this scene needs more subtext 1576 01:50:05,710 --> 01:50:12,810 Stu: is actually what that is storytelling questions about not adding more subtext. It's like, what? 1577 01:50:13,170 --> 01:50:16,150 Stu: Maybe it's missing emotional truth, right? 1578 01:50:16,290 --> 01:50:22,510 Stu: Maybe it's missing the reason the characters are choosing to reveal or not reveal information, right? 1579 01:50:22,710 --> 01:50:26,850 Stu: And so, it's going to go back to your characters or it's going to be going back 1580 01:50:26,850 --> 01:50:31,870 Stu: to what the audience knows and therefore, what do we need them to not say? 1581 01:50:31,870 --> 01:50:36,310 Stu: You know if the characters know this do they need to talk about it no but how 1582 01:50:36,310 --> 01:50:40,590 Stu: do we then tell the audience you know i think obviously we didn't answer that 1583 01:50:40,590 --> 01:50:43,470 Stu: question in the podcast we're at the end of it but i think that's kind of what 1584 01:50:43,470 --> 01:50:51,390 Stu: i would be would be thinking about yeah it's not i've ever gotten that note you're. 1585 01:50:51,390 --> 01:50:52,590 Chas: Not being obvious enough stew. 1586 01:50:52,590 --> 01:50:57,370 Stu: Yeah i mean that's the that's the dilemma for modern screenwriters now all that 1587 01:50:57,370 --> 01:51:01,190 Stu: term you know people apparently are getting notes of like, you need to make this more obvious. 1588 01:51:01,590 --> 01:51:06,670 Stu: People are watching this while playing with their phones. But that's a discussion for another time. 1589 01:51:06,930 --> 01:51:15,050 Tom: And sometimes you do. I mean, it is, to me, it's the barrier of emotional truth is the criteria. 1590 01:51:15,470 --> 01:51:17,590 Tom: Make it more obvious is not a bad note. 1591 01:51:18,410 --> 01:51:22,510 Tom: Make it so obvious that you lose emotional truth is a bad note. 1592 01:51:22,710 --> 01:51:24,050 Chas: Yes. Yeah. 1593 01:51:24,510 --> 01:51:27,570 Stu: Sometimes being obvious is the emotional truth. 1594 01:51:27,750 --> 01:51:29,410 Tom: Yeah. Absolutely. 1595 01:51:29,730 --> 01:51:32,550 Chas: So Tom, I know we're just a couple of minutes over. 1596 01:51:32,810 --> 01:51:38,090 Chas: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing us. If you liked this format, 1597 01:51:38,290 --> 01:51:39,490 Chas: we would love you to come back on. 1598 01:51:39,610 --> 01:51:43,270 Chas: And if you can think of like another topic that you would love to explore with 1599 01:51:43,270 --> 01:51:44,770 Chas: these two random Australians. 1600 01:51:45,270 --> 01:51:48,630 Tom: Absolutely. Let's grab Jonathan. Yeah. 1601 01:51:48,890 --> 01:51:50,150 Stu: Oh yeah, that'd be good. 1602 01:51:50,150 --> 01:51:54,850 Tom: Because you were saying, like, what I think is the best channel on screenwriting 1603 01:51:54,850 --> 01:51:58,130 Tom: on YouTube. And I was thinking, I got to tell him about Raising the Stakes. 1604 01:51:58,670 --> 01:52:05,290 Tom: I had no idea that's who you'd mention. Let's plug his channel in the notes as well. He's great. 1605 01:52:05,690 --> 01:52:10,150 Stu: Yeah. Well, there you go. And the best newsletter on screenwriting is... 1606 01:52:10,750 --> 01:52:11,510 Chas: Story and Plot? 1607 01:52:12,570 --> 01:52:13,610 Tom: Storyandplot.com. 1608 01:52:13,770 --> 01:52:14,430 Chas: There you go. 1609 01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:19,300 Chas: And i agree well. 1610 01:52:19,300 --> 01:52:20,880 Stu: Thank you thank you so much thank. 1611 01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:22,800 Tom: You gentlemen thanks for getting up early. 1612 01:52:22,800 --> 01:52:24,220 Stu: I know what to do with myself. 1613 01:52:24,220 --> 01:52:27,040 Chas: Well i i'm going back to bed that's what i'm doing, 1614 01:52:28,280 --> 01:52:32,360 Chas: i've told my kids they can watch all the sunday morning tv they want i'm going back to bed, 1615 01:52:33,500 --> 01:52:36,340 Chas: but uh tom yes absolutely thank you 1616 01:52:36,340 --> 01:52:39,440 Chas: thanks as always to our amazing 1617 01:52:39,440 --> 01:52:42,300 Chas: patrons who bring you more draft zero more often and who in fact 1618 01:52:42,300 --> 01:52:45,400 Chas: weighed in heavily on the homework michael clayton was 1619 01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:48,920 Chas: selected by tom but the other two were uh 1620 01:52:48,920 --> 01:52:51,880 Chas: particularly the inglorious bastards uh scene was 1621 01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:58,280 Chas: a was a patreon pick so you two can pick our homework pick our topics and uh 1622 01:52:58,280 --> 01:53:05,020 Chas: and generally tell us how you feel uh more directly than than other other forums 1623 01:53:05,020 --> 01:53:10,800 Chas: uh but in particular thanks to our top tier patrons who truly bring you more Draft Zero more often. 1624 01:53:11,520 --> 01:53:19,740 Chas: Alexandra, Jenny, Jesse, Krob, Lily, Millay, Paolo, Randy, Sandra, Theis, and Thomas. 1625 01:53:20,460 --> 01:53:21,680 Chas: Thank you so much, guys. 1626 01:53:21,900 --> 01:53:25,820 Excerpts: I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on 1627 01:53:25,820 --> 01:53:27,440 Excerpts: this episode or anything in general. 1628 01:53:27,620 --> 01:53:34,220 Excerpts: And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com. 1629 01:53:34,420 --> 01:53:38,620 Excerpts: At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes, 1630 01:53:38,760 --> 01:53:44,080 Excerpts: as well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and 1631 01:53:44,080 --> 01:53:47,140 Excerpts: review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word. 1632 01:53:47,360 --> 01:53:52,200 Excerpts: Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than 1633 01:53:52,200 --> 01:53:57,920 Excerpts: a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting 1634 01:53:57,920 --> 01:53:59,780 Excerpts: these episodes to you quicker. 1635 01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:03,040 Excerpts: Thanks. And thanks for listening.