WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:04.950 The CRO Spotlight Podcast. 00:00:08.670 --> 00:00:12.990 Hi, I'm Warren Zenna, founder and CEO of the CRO Collective, and 00:00:12.990 --> 00:00:15.060 welcome to the CRO Spotlight Podcast. 00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:20.400 This podcast is for Chief Revenue Officers, aspiring CROs and 00:00:20.400 --> 00:00:23.520 CEOs who are looking to hire or support a CRO to succeed. 00:00:25.330 --> 00:00:29.410 To join me in my expert guests as we debate, discuss and tackle today's 00:00:29.410 --> 00:00:32.560 complex revenue growth challenges, and provide practical insights 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:33.970 to help CROs succeed in the role. 00:00:34.510 --> 00:00:36.910 We're really excited to have you with us Now let's get to it. 00:00:44.565 --> 00:00:44.684 Hi. 00:00:44.684 --> 00:00:45.045 Hello. 00:00:45.045 --> 00:00:47.265 Welcome to the uh, CRO Spotlight Podcast. 00:00:47.265 --> 00:00:48.635 I'm your host, Warren Zenna. 00:00:48.855 --> 00:00:50.355 Um, I'm doing solo today. 00:00:50.655 --> 00:00:53.504 Uh, Lu pays out, but I'm excited because we have a great, 00:00:53.595 --> 00:00:54.644 great conversation to have. 00:00:54.644 --> 00:00:58.485 I wanna start out a bit first talk a little about the downturns 00:00:58.485 --> 00:01:00.945 that we're seeing, cuz I'm getting a lot of input on this. 00:01:01.035 --> 00:01:04.185 So a lot of my clients and other people are, as you all know, 00:01:04.185 --> 00:01:05.625 are seeing a lot of layoffs. 00:01:07.395 --> 00:01:11.085 So, uh, then what I'm noting here, and I've been talking about 00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:12.675 this quite a bit, is the fact. 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:16.320 Most of the layoffs are in sales, some in marketing. 00:01:17.310 --> 00:01:20.400 We're seeing a lot of salespeople get laid off, and I think that 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:24.390 it's a habit that a lot of these, um, kind of growth hack based 00:01:24.390 --> 00:01:27.240 companies, they overhire salespeople. 00:01:28.770 --> 00:01:33.450 They hire these, um, kind of SDR groups and they double up on their sales 00:01:33.450 --> 00:01:36.810 forces, and then when the downturn comes, they don't need them anymore. 00:01:36.810 --> 00:01:39.060 And something off with that. 00:01:40.020 --> 00:01:44.250 Because I believe what's going on too often is they throw more salespeople 00:01:44.310 --> 00:01:47.730 at a problem and then they don't need them anymore when the downturn comes. 00:01:48.630 --> 00:01:51.780 And I see this as really a reflection of the focus that some 00:01:51.785 --> 00:01:55.289 of these companies have is on their sales channel almost exclusively. 00:01:56.520 --> 00:01:58.860 And so, you know, I've got a lot of friends who got hired 00:01:58.860 --> 00:02:01.800 like a month, and then after the month was over, they got canned. 00:02:02.970 --> 00:02:06.680 . So, you know, and I, I've been ranting about this a lot and a lot. 00:02:06.685 --> 00:02:08.250 I don't think a lot of people are not happy about it. 00:02:08.250 --> 00:02:10.000 But, you know, I think some of. 00:02:10.485 --> 00:02:11.835 , well, we're gonna be talking about this today. 00:02:11.835 --> 00:02:14.715 Some of the growth hacking and the, the growth at all costs. 00:02:14.775 --> 00:02:17.535 Um, mentality of some of these companies has been so focused 00:02:17.535 --> 00:02:19.605 heavily on driving pipeline growth. 00:02:20.475 --> 00:02:22.395 And I'm not denouncing the idea of pipeline growth. 00:02:22.395 --> 00:02:25.575 I think it's obviously critically important, but you know, it comes 00:02:25.605 --> 00:02:27.285 sometimes the expense of other things. 00:02:27.285 --> 00:02:30.375 And I think to some degree, I think even the SDR organizations are doing 00:02:30.375 --> 00:02:31.755 the job that marketing should be doing. 00:02:31.905 --> 00:02:32.745 We'll talk about that a bit. 00:02:34.290 --> 00:02:37.320 But what I'm saying is I think that the key here is if you're from, from a 00:02:37.320 --> 00:02:40.110 chief revenue officer perspective, you have to be looking at your organization 00:02:40.110 --> 00:02:42.900 from um, am I bringing out the math? 00:02:42.990 --> 00:02:46.710 If I'm, am I maximizing the utility of my Salesforce and are they efficient? 00:02:46.740 --> 00:02:47.790 Are they sufficient for me? 00:02:47.850 --> 00:02:48.720 Do I really need more? 00:02:50.040 --> 00:02:52.410 You know, sometimes I think what drives hiring more 00:02:52.410 --> 00:02:53.790 salespeople is cuz it looks good. 00:02:54.780 --> 00:02:55.170 You know? 00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:58.080 I mean, if you could tell you're bored, you hired more salespeople than the 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.780 natural, you know, reaction is gonna be, well then you're gonna get more pipeline. 00:03:00.785 --> 00:03:01.050 Right. 00:03:02.320 --> 00:03:05.760 You know, there's a quality versus quantity issue, which 00:03:05.790 --> 00:03:07.260 we're dealing with right now. 00:03:08.190 --> 00:03:12.090 The amount of spam that I get, I got a three cold calls on my cell phone, 00:03:12.600 --> 00:03:19.605 uh, over the last week, and they were all pointless, not useful, and so, In 00:03:19.605 --> 00:03:22.635 any event, I think that, uh, this is an important topic we'll get into, but I 00:03:22.635 --> 00:03:24.795 wanna introduce, uh, our guest today. 00:03:24.795 --> 00:03:25.605 I'm real excited about it. 00:03:26.055 --> 00:03:27.285 Uh, his name is Mike Schumann. 00:03:28.395 --> 00:03:31.395 Uh, Mike Schumann is currently the CRO at Revenue Base, which 00:03:31.395 --> 00:03:32.895 is a Bessemer portfolio company. 00:03:33.435 --> 00:03:36.375 Uh, they help organizations more efficiently create top line funnel. 00:03:36.600 --> 00:03:38.579 That converts to higher rate to meet revenue goals. 00:03:39.209 --> 00:03:42.239 Uh, Mike spent the last decade as a revenue leader for Rev Venture backed 00:03:42.239 --> 00:03:46.739 companies like Sify, our work and Cloud Fast Path, which is now a box company. 00:03:47.459 --> 00:03:48.839 Um, Mike and I talk a lot. 00:03:48.869 --> 00:03:51.690 We have really interesting perspectives on things and we share them a lot. 00:03:51.690 --> 00:03:53.910 And I thought it'd be a really good time to have a conversation with him 00:03:53.910 --> 00:03:56.609 cuz he has a lot of thoughts on some of the shifts that are taking place. 00:03:56.609 --> 00:03:57.329 So Mike, welcome. 00:03:57.329 --> 00:03:57.720 Thank you. 00:03:57.720 --> 00:03:58.230 It's great. 00:03:58.230 --> 00:03:59.339 Uh, great to be here Warren. 00:03:59.339 --> 00:04:00.029 Thanks for having me. 00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:00.510 Sure thing. 00:04:01.495 --> 00:04:04.345 So first, if you don't mind, um, we'd love to hear a little bit more about your 00:04:04.345 --> 00:04:08.365 background and what you're doing right now and sort of like what got you here. 00:04:08.365 --> 00:04:12.055 I think a lot of things, what our audience likes to hear is, so if you're 00:04:12.055 --> 00:04:13.525 a C R O, like how'd you get there? 00:04:14.275 --> 00:04:14.545 , right? 00:04:14.695 --> 00:04:17.215 Because I work with a lot of people that are sort of trying to navigate that, 00:04:17.215 --> 00:04:18.565 so that's always an interesting thing. 00:04:18.565 --> 00:04:20.035 So if you don't mind, love to hear a bit more about that. 00:04:20.035 --> 00:04:20.575 Sure. 00:04:20.575 --> 00:04:25.945 So coming out of, um, out of college, I, I, I really came to sales in, 00:04:25.945 --> 00:04:27.835 in business in general, very late. 00:04:28.635 --> 00:04:35.925 in my academic career and I, I came out of college with a very rough plan, 00:04:36.375 --> 00:04:39.375 um, after a couple of happenstances that I won't bore you with. 00:04:39.675 --> 00:04:46.665 My plan was I was going to get my street education in business by being in sales. 00:04:47.070 --> 00:04:51.659 For four, three to four years, and then going back for an MBA where 00:04:51.659 --> 00:04:56.099 I was gonna focus on finance to get my formal business education. 00:04:56.520 --> 00:05:00.210 These were like very broad, naive brushstrokes, but it was the only 00:05:00.210 --> 00:05:01.890 plan that I had, but it was a plan. 00:05:02.650 --> 00:05:07.390 And part of it really had me focusing on sales as an extension of my academic 00:05:07.395 --> 00:05:09.490 work, where I took it seriously. 00:05:09.490 --> 00:05:13.390 I was the guy reading the books, driving around, listening to tapes. 00:05:13.690 --> 00:05:17.320 I watched other more successful salespeople, figured out what they 00:05:17.320 --> 00:05:19.330 were doing and adopted those behaviors. 00:05:20.080 --> 00:05:26.230 Uh, but really found myself getting very comfortable at operating. 00:05:26.594 --> 00:05:28.375 With very little resources. 00:05:28.380 --> 00:05:30.795 I didn't realize that when I was hired at this small company, 00:05:30.795 --> 00:05:32.145 I was basically cannon fodder. 00:05:32.265 --> 00:05:39.675 Nobody cared whether I was successful or not, and I, I wanted to be successful. 00:05:40.635 --> 00:05:42.495 I didn't see myself as cannon fodder. 00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:49.620 So every day I, I continued to learn and grow and I got very comfortable generating 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:52.470 and creating revenue streams from scratch. 00:05:53.010 --> 00:05:57.600 So I, uh, threw some twists and turns after my M B A ended up at a 00:05:57.605 --> 00:06:01.860 publicly traded company where I had launched a new product for them. 00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:06.450 They, they desperately needed to show that they could take their technology and 00:06:06.450 --> 00:06:11.550 put it into a new vertical and create a stream of revenue to try to get the, the. 00:06:12.750 --> 00:06:18.480 The share price up and I went into my first day, I was working directly for the, 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:24.840 the VP responsible for the product and pulled together a little team internally. 00:06:26.145 --> 00:06:29.505 And, uh, nine months later, I walked into her office and I said, 00:06:29.505 --> 00:06:33.435 congratulations, you just generated a million dollars of incremental revenue. 00:06:34.065 --> 00:06:37.305 The sales channels are built and we're meeting our sell through rates. 00:06:37.545 --> 00:06:40.725 And when you do that, you tend to get people's attention, especially in a big 00:06:40.725 --> 00:06:42.165 company that's sort of been lagging. 00:06:42.555 --> 00:06:45.725 So I ended up working very closely with the president and the C E O. 00:06:46.635 --> 00:06:53.505 Launching new products or testing products from outside the US into the us um, market 00:06:53.985 --> 00:06:56.655 and creating more streams of revenue. 00:06:56.655 --> 00:07:00.135 And my, my wife and I at the time, were living at where we live now, 00:07:00.135 --> 00:07:03.495 which is equally distant between Harvard and m i t and Cambridge. 00:07:03.975 --> 00:07:04.155 Mm-hmm. 00:07:04.395 --> 00:07:08.925 . Um, and there were all these early stage companies and at the 00:07:08.930 --> 00:07:10.405 publicly traded company I was. 00:07:11.145 --> 00:07:14.745 It used to be a startup and there were still people in the 00:07:14.745 --> 00:07:16.815 halls that had taken that ride. 00:07:17.205 --> 00:07:19.245 And I thought, man, I wonder if I could ever do this. 00:07:19.245 --> 00:07:20.715 Like, how good am I really? 00:07:20.715 --> 00:07:24.315 Like, can I, could I actually generate a revenue stream from 00:07:24.315 --> 00:07:26.985 scratch in one of these scenarios where there's no brand equity? 00:07:27.630 --> 00:07:31.469 You know, there's a really compelling solution, but it's causing, people 00:07:31.469 --> 00:07:34.859 need to think about the problem differently and the solution differently. 00:07:35.609 --> 00:07:41.520 And I threw myself into the early stage community where I knew absolutely no one. 00:07:41.940 --> 00:07:48.210 I had absolutely no credibility and I just focused on helping other people accomplish 00:07:48.210 --> 00:07:49.740 the things they needed to achieve. 00:07:50.609 --> 00:07:53.729 And I really looked at these entrepreneurs as people that could really do it all. 00:07:54.330 --> 00:07:57.419 And what I didn't realize is a lot of 'em are, while they're extremely 00:07:57.425 --> 00:08:02.190 bright in areas that I, I don't necessarily count as my strengths. 00:08:03.330 --> 00:08:09.300 Really selling and understanding how to build a sales process, sales structure, 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:14.310 and a sales organization to drive, uh, repeatable revenue that's predictable is 00:08:14.315 --> 00:08:15.640 something I'm actually really good at. 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:19.230 Um, and doing that without very little guidelines. 00:08:19.230 --> 00:08:24.570 And then I, you know, SIFY, I was the first sales hire there, took 00:08:24.570 --> 00:08:29.010 them from zero to a million in like 18 months that they're now, you 00:08:29.010 --> 00:08:30.450 know, valued at over $2 billion. 00:08:31.745 --> 00:08:33.310 , uh, they have a great leadership team. 00:08:33.310 --> 00:08:36.400 Much of the credit goes to them and the terrific people they hired. 00:08:36.760 --> 00:08:40.840 Um, I worked myself out of a job very quickly, um, but was smart 00:08:40.845 --> 00:08:43.810 enough to stick around to learn from a very skilled sales leader. 00:08:43.815 --> 00:08:47.290 That took over for me, and I just kept building and building 00:08:47.290 --> 00:08:50.380 and building my knowledge, base, my skillset, demonstrating my 00:08:50.380 --> 00:08:52.620 abilities, until really I earned the. 00:08:53.445 --> 00:08:56.895 To take over the, the broad responsibilities that I have now. 00:08:56.895 --> 00:09:02.325 So the way I approached my career in general was, um, both 00:09:02.325 --> 00:09:03.555 my parents were in the Navy. 00:09:04.245 --> 00:09:04.335 Mm-hmm. 00:09:04.665 --> 00:09:10.065 and, um, I all, I always believe that if I was going to have the privilege of 00:09:10.065 --> 00:09:14.505 captaining a ship, that I wanted to be the captain, the kind of captain that not only 00:09:14.505 --> 00:09:20.715 knew how to do every job on the ship, but I also know how to work as an effective. 00:09:21.585 --> 00:09:22.545 Of a fleet. 00:09:23.175 --> 00:09:28.814 So if the build pump on the ship broke and, and my, uh, you know, 00:09:28.814 --> 00:09:32.955 maintenance person was down, I wanted to be able to repair that build pump. 00:09:33.225 --> 00:09:37.185 And I treated sales and revenue generation that same way all the 00:09:37.189 --> 00:09:41.085 way through, up to very complex, uh, go-to-market strategies and, and 00:09:41.085 --> 00:09:42.495 metrics, which is where I am today. 00:09:42.525 --> 00:09:43.245 Got it, got it, got it. 00:09:43.245 --> 00:09:43.515 Great. 00:09:43.545 --> 00:09:43.905 Thanks. 00:09:44.685 --> 00:09:45.165 That's really cool. 00:09:45.165 --> 00:09:45.945 So thanks. 00:09:45.945 --> 00:09:47.925 I wanna talk a bit about some of that stuff cuz you mentioned some 00:09:47.925 --> 00:09:48.825 things in there that I'm interested. 00:09:48.825 --> 00:09:52.140 I, the first thing I'd like to know, , like when you think of the 00:09:52.140 --> 00:09:55.229 role of a chief revenue officer, cuz you mentioned you came up through the 00:09:55.229 --> 00:09:57.420 sales channel, which most, most CROs do. 00:09:57.839 --> 00:09:57.930 Mm-hmm. 00:09:58.170 --> 00:09:59.430 and we can, we can talk about that too. 00:09:59.489 --> 00:10:01.410 There's an interesting kind of perspective on that. 00:10:01.410 --> 00:10:04.439 But would what, how do you describe the role? 00:10:04.530 --> 00:10:06.089 What's your perspective on the role? 00:10:07.225 --> 00:10:11.175 , you know, if you were, let's say, advising a C E O right, and hiring 00:10:11.175 --> 00:10:15.015 a chief revenue officer, how would you advise them to appoint one and 00:10:15.015 --> 00:10:16.785 deploy one to the, to their business? 00:10:16.875 --> 00:10:17.055 Yeah. 00:10:17.055 --> 00:10:23.145 I think you really want someone who's gonna be a, a steward, a, a steward 00:10:23.205 --> 00:10:31.155 of, of revenue and, and, and a steward of the, the different functions. 00:10:32.020 --> 00:10:36.855 that participate in revenue generation from marketing, sales, customer success. 00:10:37.155 --> 00:10:37.245 Mm-hmm. 00:10:37.485 --> 00:10:40.665 really a steward to the ceo. 00:10:41.205 --> 00:10:43.785 You know, they need someone who's gonna be watching out for them. 00:10:43.785 --> 00:10:46.095 They spend so much time looking out for everybody else, well, 00:10:46.095 --> 00:10:48.015 who's looking out for them, right? 00:10:48.020 --> 00:10:48.045 Right. 00:10:48.045 --> 00:10:53.235 And by being the machine that can drive revenue, that enables that c e o to 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:57.315 make the really fun decisions, like how do we grow, how do we expand, what 00:10:57.315 --> 00:10:58.845 new products could we be offering? 00:10:58.845 --> 00:11:02.115 Versus like, oh my God, how are we gonna meet budget this month? 00:11:02.115 --> 00:11:03.105 How are we gonna meet payroll? 00:11:03.105 --> 00:11:06.135 Like, we're, we're, we're like dying over here, right? 00:11:06.675 --> 00:11:06.765 Mm-hmm. 00:11:07.005 --> 00:11:10.185 . So I, I would say it's that mentality of. 00:11:10.979 --> 00:11:18.060 Of a steward who, who really does need to possess not only a strong business 00:11:18.209 --> 00:11:23.069 acumen, but they have to have a high level of technical skills as it relates 00:11:23.069 --> 00:11:29.849 to reporting and metrics and other performance capabilities and, and how 00:11:30.060 --> 00:11:36.854 to influence, um, The improvement of those KPIs, but they also have to have 00:11:36.854 --> 00:11:38.474 a high degree of professional skills. 00:11:38.474 --> 00:11:41.265 I'm, I'm told that now, soft skills. 00:11:41.805 --> 00:11:41.984 Mm-hmm. 00:11:42.375 --> 00:11:46.875 , uh, credit, my friend are now, uh, I should call 'em professional skills. 00:11:47.655 --> 00:11:49.245 They have to be a steward of people. 00:11:49.245 --> 00:11:54.495 They have to be someone who is of service who can set a tone for a team. 00:11:54.525 --> 00:11:57.944 They're the, they're, they're, they're not necessarily on the field 00:11:57.944 --> 00:11:59.324 as the quarterback of the team. 00:11:59.324 --> 00:11:59.745 They're more. 00:12:00.750 --> 00:12:05.230 , you know, the, the, the coach or the GM level mm-hmm. 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:08.790 , you know, they're particularly effective with it when they can really get down 00:12:08.790 --> 00:12:13.650 to that grassroots up, grassroots level on the ground with the team 00:12:13.710 --> 00:12:16.860 in the trench and be effective there as well, because sometimes people 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:18.330 just need a good example to follow. 00:12:18.750 --> 00:12:19.770 Right, right. 00:12:19.890 --> 00:12:23.460 And, and I think a successful c R O. 00:12:24.079 --> 00:12:28.590 , I think you wanna see that person that's going to bring energy to the team. 00:12:28.590 --> 00:12:31.740 They're gonna, they're gonna help the people around them really level up their 00:12:31.740 --> 00:12:35.360 games in a way where people may leave. 00:12:36.210 --> 00:12:36.930 , you know, revenue base. 00:12:36.930 --> 00:12:42.510 Like, look, we, we operate from a revenue team that we are of service 00:12:42.510 --> 00:12:44.970 to everybody else in the company. 00:12:45.090 --> 00:12:45.180 Mm-hmm. 00:12:45.420 --> 00:12:46.199 , like, let's face it. 00:12:46.410 --> 00:12:46.770 Right? 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:51.569 Most people in an organization are scared to death of salespeople, . They 00:12:51.574 --> 00:12:53.010 don't know how we do what we do. 00:12:53.370 --> 00:12:55.080 They don't wanna know what we do. 00:12:55.350 --> 00:12:58.530 Like they see us coming and they're like, oh no, here they come again. 00:12:58.530 --> 00:13:00.840 These people are crazy and it's our. 00:13:01.724 --> 00:13:05.115 To be grateful to them for the work they're doing to appreciate what 00:13:05.115 --> 00:13:06.854 our colleagues are doing, right? 00:13:06.854 --> 00:13:06.944 Mm-hmm. 00:13:07.194 --> 00:13:10.964 , you, you wanna have a leader that's gonna set the tone for the salespeople and 00:13:10.964 --> 00:13:16.665 say, look, you're, you're not entitled to anything y you're actually responsible 00:13:17.084 --> 00:13:20.655 for the wellbeing of these people and their families, and you better bring 00:13:20.655 --> 00:13:22.515 that intensity every day to what you're. 00:13:23.550 --> 00:13:26.190 . And I think when you do that, it does set a really healthy tone 00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:29.640 for people and, and leads to some terrific, uh, not only professional 00:13:29.640 --> 00:13:31.230 growth, but but personal growth. 00:13:31.260 --> 00:13:31.500 Yeah. 00:13:31.560 --> 00:13:33.030 So you brought a lot of things up there. 00:13:33.090 --> 00:13:37.710 Um, I think it seemed like you emphasized a lot on the leadership and personal, 00:13:37.715 --> 00:13:39.150 or I call them professional skills. 00:13:39.990 --> 00:13:42.000 Um, so I'm gonna play a game with you. 00:13:42.465 --> 00:13:43.995 Gonna have the conversation a lot with people. 00:13:44.925 --> 00:13:47.895 If you're interviewing A A C O, a potential one, like you're your 00:13:47.895 --> 00:13:51.675 CEO of a company and you're, you're interviewing a C R O and that particular 00:13:51.680 --> 00:13:55.755 candidate, you can tell possesses incredible personal professional 00:13:55.755 --> 00:13:57.735 skills, great leadership, right? 00:13:57.885 --> 00:14:01.064 Really motivating great coach, great leader, great visionary. 00:14:01.665 --> 00:14:03.555 You know, someone who, you know, would, like you said, be 00:14:03.555 --> 00:14:06.045 that sort of like professional steward of the business, right? 00:14:07.125 --> 00:14:10.425 But they're not as competent in the technical skills. 00:14:11.670 --> 00:14:12.540 and then vice versa. 00:14:12.900 --> 00:14:13.230 Right? 00:14:13.410 --> 00:14:13.980 Vice versa. 00:14:14.400 --> 00:14:17.610 You met someone who was incredible metrics driven, really data driven 00:14:17.610 --> 00:14:22.140 person, really has strong acumen, but lacked some of those like per 00:14:22.145 --> 00:14:23.250 professional leadership skills. 00:14:23.610 --> 00:14:27.240 Which one do you think would make a better or suitable candidate for you? 00:14:27.390 --> 00:14:28.200 Yeah, hands down. 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:32.820 The person that possesses those, those professional skills, because I think that 00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:35.010 that in my mind is more about who you. 00:14:36.135 --> 00:14:38.625 Versus what, you know, I can teach you technical skills. 00:14:38.630 --> 00:14:39.255 Sure, sure. 00:14:39.255 --> 00:14:43.365 I can surround you with enough people to help you become quite astute in a very 00:14:43.365 --> 00:14:48.555 short period of time on some of the, the key metrics we're, we're looking for. 00:14:48.885 --> 00:14:51.165 But if you're gonna walk around sucking the life out of people, 00:14:51.870 --> 00:14:53.040 Yeah, making them uncomfortable. 00:14:53.040 --> 00:14:55.560 And you can't preserve a team because nobody wants to work with you. 00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:56.240 Right. 00:14:56.245 --> 00:14:57.360 Uh, I can't teach that. 00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:58.000 And that's a emotion. 00:14:58.000 --> 00:14:59.970 You know, I, I had a really interesting conversation about this. 00:15:00.040 --> 00:15:01.230 I, I bring this up for a reason. 00:15:01.380 --> 00:15:03.360 I'm really glad you had this, this, you brought this up. 00:15:03.630 --> 00:15:06.540 So I was at a dinner in Utah a couple weeks, uh, two, three weeks 00:15:06.540 --> 00:15:08.670 ago, and we were having this big conversation about this very topic. 00:15:10.220 --> 00:15:14.745 and uh, you know, one of the questions that come to me a lot are, wow, 00:15:14.745 --> 00:15:16.605 this c o role is so complicated. 00:15:16.965 --> 00:15:18.225 Somebody has to know sales. 00:15:18.225 --> 00:15:21.405 They have to know marketing, and they need to know how to manage customer experience. 00:15:21.410 --> 00:15:23.954 And they have to understand numbers and they have to be good in metrics. 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.314 They have tech abilities and, you know, who is this unicorn? 00:15:27.465 --> 00:15:27.855 You know? 00:15:28.245 --> 00:15:31.845 And it's a great question cuz I, I do know some people whom are really 00:15:31.845 --> 00:15:34.545 amazing at all these things, but they, they get there over time. 00:15:34.545 --> 00:15:36.585 It's not like you're not, you don't come out of the womb that way. 00:15:36.944 --> 00:15:37.125 Sure. 00:15:37.125 --> 00:15:38.985 So the point is like, if you don't possess. 00:15:39.574 --> 00:15:42.425 You can't, you don't have some way to speed time up. 00:15:43.204 --> 00:15:46.145 You have to learn those things along the way, but you still have that job. 00:15:46.145 --> 00:15:51.974 So sort of the way that I navigate this particular conundrum is, Ask yourself 00:15:51.974 --> 00:15:56.115 the question is, what are the sort of endemic, rela, um, skillsets that I 00:15:56.115 --> 00:15:58.665 know somebody has to have to succeed? 00:15:58.665 --> 00:15:58.905 Right? 00:15:58.905 --> 00:15:59.625 What are those? 00:15:59.745 --> 00:16:00.015 Right? 00:16:00.405 --> 00:16:02.954 So I think the, the, the initial thought would be, well, I need 00:16:02.954 --> 00:16:06.224 someone who's really amazingly good at, you know, managing business data. 00:16:06.405 --> 00:16:07.995 Because ultimately that's their job, right? 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.724 They need to be able to manage business data and create more, you know, co 00:16:10.724 --> 00:16:14.714 cohesion between different functions and develop, uh, an ability to read 00:16:14.714 --> 00:16:19.790 the tea leaves and have strong business acumen that based on that, , but then, 00:16:19.790 --> 00:16:21.890 you know, they think about it and they're like, well, you know, if I'm 00:16:21.890 --> 00:16:25.100 gonna hire a CRO in the way that you and I are proposing, which I think we 00:16:25.250 --> 00:16:27.800 obviously were in agreement that they have to be somewhat like a more of a 00:16:27.800 --> 00:16:29.450 leader of a lot of different functions. 00:16:30.050 --> 00:16:33.020 It's really critical that person understands how to manage people and 00:16:33.020 --> 00:16:35.210 drive, you know, I mean there's a lot of problems associated with that. 00:16:35.215 --> 00:16:35.300 Sure. 00:16:35.390 --> 00:16:35.870 Definitely. 00:16:35.870 --> 00:16:37.520 You gotta manage up, you gotta manage down. 00:16:37.760 --> 00:16:40.520 So this is the sort of, I'm leading up to a bit of a punchline here. 00:16:40.520 --> 00:16:46.370 So the way that I sort of described it is, um, uh, I could delegate technical. 00:16:47.955 --> 00:16:50.985 I can hire a rev ops leader who's amazing at this, and that person reports 00:16:50.985 --> 00:16:53.685 to me and I can give that person a really clear direction and over time 00:16:53.685 --> 00:16:54.825 accumulates some knowledge about it. 00:16:55.245 --> 00:16:57.015 I can find someone who's really good at marketing. 00:16:57.020 --> 00:17:00.375 I can put somebody in in charge of marketing who's a genius at marketing, 00:17:00.375 --> 00:17:03.495 and I can manage that person's outcomes based on them my direction. 00:17:04.095 --> 00:17:05.565 I can't delegate leadership. 00:17:07.665 --> 00:17:09.464 I can't have somebody else be the leader for me. 00:17:10.409 --> 00:17:10.560 Right. 00:17:10.560 --> 00:17:10.859 Absolutely. 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:12.389 You can't, you have to do that yourself. 00:17:12.899 --> 00:17:13.260 Hundred percent. 00:17:13.260 --> 00:17:16.319 So you think about the thing you can't delegate, that's the thing that you have 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:20.129 to do and give it, given its importance, you have to do really well at it. 00:17:20.129 --> 00:17:22.949 So I'm, I'm in agreement with you, but I, the reason I bring this up is 00:17:22.949 --> 00:17:27.719 because while I haven't had any, had anybody argue this point, the problem 00:17:27.724 --> 00:17:31.290 I'm seeing in the marketplace is that when people go to interview for a 00:17:31.649 --> 00:17:33.090 COO job, they're not looked at that. 00:17:33.149 --> 00:17:35.879 That way they're actually looked at for the skillsets that they can. 00:17:37.320 --> 00:17:41.100 So someone would say, for example, a great leader would walk in the office and they'd 00:17:41.100 --> 00:17:42.600 go, yeah, yeah, he's an amazing person. 00:17:42.600 --> 00:17:45.750 My God, he really would be great on the team, but eh, you know, 00:17:45.754 --> 00:17:48.449 he really doesn't really have a strong sense of data management. 00:17:48.510 --> 00:17:49.530 Let's find somebody else. 00:17:49.590 --> 00:17:52.919 And so they end up sort of doing the thing, I think that they look 00:17:52.925 --> 00:17:55.229 at as more, um, um, what's the word? 00:17:55.229 --> 00:17:55.919 Maybe more of a. 00:17:57.070 --> 00:17:59.980 , an immediate, superficial need in. 00:18:00.040 --> 00:18:04.330 Um, and they, and they sort of do it at the expense of someone who can really 00:18:04.570 --> 00:18:05.950 manage things really well, you know? 00:18:06.370 --> 00:18:06.460 Mm-hmm. 00:18:06.705 --> 00:18:09.189 and, and I think that that's why a lot of CROs have a hard time getting 00:18:09.189 --> 00:18:12.790 the job for the first time is because they have to earn their stripes. 00:18:13.090 --> 00:18:16.510 by doing certain things, and then they find out later on that it's 00:18:16.510 --> 00:18:19.419 the way someone actually operates and it actually is, is, is gonna 00:18:19.419 --> 00:18:20.530 ultimately be more important. 00:18:20.530 --> 00:18:23.050 So I I I, I don't wanna get into it too much, but I think it's a, it's an 00:18:23.050 --> 00:18:26.620 interesting topic and it's one that I have a lot, so I, I'm glad you brought that up. 00:18:27.100 --> 00:18:29.709 So another thing that you and I talked about as a topic here is, 00:18:29.715 --> 00:18:30.580 and you mentioned already is. 00:18:31.635 --> 00:18:33.885 You know, this shift that's taking place in the market right now. 00:18:33.915 --> 00:18:34.185 Right. 00:18:34.185 --> 00:18:38.415 This whole growth at all costs sort of mentality of the SAS-based or, you know, 00:18:38.415 --> 00:18:41.415 subscription based businesses is really, was very successful for a long time. 00:18:41.415 --> 00:18:42.705 That's how unicorns get created. 00:18:43.155 --> 00:18:43.305 Yep. 00:18:43.305 --> 00:18:46.035 You know, these companies, they just build multiples and multiples and multiples 00:18:46.035 --> 00:18:47.475 and they're able to scale, scale, scale. 00:18:48.225 --> 00:18:51.585 And um, this is the conundrum and I kind of wanna get into with you about 00:18:51.585 --> 00:18:54.375 this because there's two reasons businesses are created, right? 00:18:54.405 --> 00:18:55.905 One is to serve customer. 00:18:56.290 --> 00:18:56.500 Yep. 00:18:56.889 --> 00:18:58.090 And the other one is to make money. 00:18:58.270 --> 00:18:59.800 Now everybody wants both, right? 00:18:59.860 --> 00:19:02.710 Everybody wants ha, happy customers and a profitable business. 00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:03.490 Of course they do, right? 00:19:03.490 --> 00:19:04.450 And there, there are some. 00:19:05.260 --> 00:19:07.720 But I think the thing is, is what is the context? 00:19:07.810 --> 00:19:08.169 You know? 00:19:08.919 --> 00:19:12.250 Is your business built because you want it to scale and grow and get 00:19:12.254 --> 00:19:14.560 more like a higher valuation, right? 00:19:14.560 --> 00:19:16.930 Or do you want it to be, you know, increase its stock price? 00:19:17.500 --> 00:19:20.050 Or do you want to create an outcome for people that's really great and that 00:19:20.050 --> 00:19:21.790 they love the product and those things. 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:23.150 Always easy. 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:24.680 You can't manage both of those things. 00:19:25.130 --> 00:19:25.430 You know? 00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:27.080 They, they don't always work together. 00:19:27.830 --> 00:19:31.310 If I'm going for just making more money, I'm gonna sometimes have to do it at 00:19:31.310 --> 00:19:32.630 the expense of the customer experience. 00:19:32.635 --> 00:19:33.680 We all know this, right? 00:19:33.830 --> 00:19:34.040 Yep. 00:19:34.670 --> 00:19:37.520 And I, and I think what's happening, I do, I think that it's happening is a lot 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:41.985 of the tools in the marketplace, a lot of this automation now, The s d r sort 00:19:41.985 --> 00:19:46.125 of wave that's going on, these, these new sort of organizational growth, um, 00:19:46.545 --> 00:19:50.745 segment that's being built and all the subsequent industry that's being placed 00:19:50.745 --> 00:19:56.385 around it, it seems to me that it's sort of hitting peak, you know, volume. 00:19:56.385 --> 00:19:58.995 You know, I, I don't know about you cuz we're probably both around the 00:19:58.995 --> 00:20:04.125 same, you know, age and whatnot, just how many inbound garbage messages 00:20:04.125 --> 00:20:05.445 I get through every single channel. 00:20:06.185 --> 00:20:07.595 , I am occupied right now. 00:20:07.595 --> 00:20:11.975 As I told you, I had three spam calls from salespeople on my phone 00:20:12.155 --> 00:20:15.035 yesterday, you know, and some very inconvenient places I have to tell you. 00:20:16.055 --> 00:20:21.755 And um, so I just wanted to get into with you, you know, this idea of, of like, is 00:20:21.755 --> 00:20:26.810 it really a shift or are people saying this, Because it sounds good to say, but 00:20:26.810 --> 00:20:30.140 back in the back room people are still doing this stuff because they have to grow 00:20:30.170 --> 00:20:31.340 cuz that's what everybody else is doing. 00:20:31.340 --> 00:20:34.280 Like is it really changing or are people just kind of giving it 00:20:34.285 --> 00:20:35.510 lip service that it's changing? 00:20:35.510 --> 00:20:37.010 I don't, I'm not frankly sure. 00:20:37.040 --> 00:20:37.400 Yeah. 00:20:37.405 --> 00:20:42.590 So look, I think people are, you know, becoming more, uh, 00:20:42.650 --> 00:20:45.820 acutely aware of the fact that. 00:20:47.355 --> 00:20:51.825 You know, it's so valuable to keep really good customers, right? 00:20:51.825 --> 00:20:55.245 We, we've sort of, we've known that people talk about, well, it's always easier to 00:20:55.245 --> 00:20:58.845 keep a customer than it's cheaper to keep one, than to go out and get a new one. 00:20:58.845 --> 00:21:00.435 And, and that's true. 00:21:01.185 --> 00:21:04.575 And that's not necessarily, you know, a great scenario, but, okay. 00:21:04.580 --> 00:21:08.475 So that, that is in fact the case. 00:21:09.435 --> 00:21:15.720 And, you know, I think that, Like, let's, let's, let's talk about 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:16.770 like where that starts, right? 00:21:16.890 --> 00:21:20.280 And, and I'm not, I'm not, this is not gonna be a commercial for revenue 00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:23.130 based, but I, I think it's one of the reasons why we, you know, we 00:21:23.430 --> 00:21:29.640 started the company is that this idea of really getting a sense of, does 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:31.470 this person have this problem or not? 00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:34.770 Like, does this company have this issue potentially or not? 00:21:34.770 --> 00:21:36.480 Are they sending out the signals that tell us. 00:21:37.915 --> 00:21:42.990 and, and for us to help our customers do that is yielding dramatic impact 00:21:43.050 --> 00:21:46.860 on their ability to drive not only the volume of the top of funnel, 00:21:47.310 --> 00:21:48.810 but the amount that it's converting. 00:21:48.840 --> 00:21:49.410 Why? 00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:52.440 Because we're just talking to the right people about things they care about. 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:59.470 You know, this idea of the B to C sort of level of personalization 00:21:59.475 --> 00:22:04.080 drifting into the B2B space, I think is really all about, like all the 00:22:04.080 --> 00:22:06.240 noise and crap and poor execut. 00:22:06.600 --> 00:22:12.270 That passes as, as, uh, work in some of these organizations. 00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:15.060 And I maybe, I mean, I, I hear you. 00:22:15.060 --> 00:22:17.430 I, I don't disagree in general, but I do think. 00:22:18.210 --> 00:22:21.420 You know, I, I, cuz I'm pretty intimately close with a lot of the people that 00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:23.820 are doing this sort of thing, and they have a lot of tools they're using, you 00:22:23.820 --> 00:22:26.880 know, they have a lot of their, their, their sales stack and their, their 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.530 MarTech stack is pretty sophisticated. 00:22:28.530 --> 00:22:31.320 You know, they're, they're doing a pretty good job of trying to scrape 00:22:31.320 --> 00:22:34.530 the marketplace and identify their I C P and, you know, look, we're, 00:22:34.530 --> 00:22:35.580 they're gonna get it wrong a lot. 00:22:35.580 --> 00:22:36.540 There's no question about that. 00:22:36.540 --> 00:22:37.050 We know that. 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.250 Um, but I don't think, I guess what I'm saying is I'm, I'm trying 00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:44.820 to understand it to a bit like how much of, of it is laziness. 00:22:45.810 --> 00:22:47.700 and how much of it is that? 00:22:48.270 --> 00:22:52.710 In some respects, I think some businesses are cannibalizing their market, like 00:22:52.710 --> 00:22:54.330 there's just not enough people to sell to. 00:22:54.335 --> 00:22:57.180 Like they've already blown their opportunity with the people 00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:58.650 that they do wanna sell to. 00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:01.740 And without those people being in the funnel, they have to go reach others. 00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:04.530 And so they're sort of like hoping that they can convert people to think 00:23:04.560 --> 00:23:07.650 a certain way as opposed to going out for the people that they know they are. 00:23:08.280 --> 00:23:10.890 I'm, I'm just trying to understand the, from your perspective. 00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:11.580 Yeah. 00:23:11.730 --> 00:23:12.930 What's, what, what's going on here? 00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:14.460 Because there are some businesses that have pretty. 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:15.820 Tams, right? 00:23:15.820 --> 00:23:18.880 They're, they're big and they have a lot of opportunities or a lot at 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:21.220 bats, but then there are a lot of companies who have a niche business 00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:23.740 and they have a very small opportunity. 00:23:24.190 --> 00:23:27.280 And you know, if you don't go about it right, you ruin the opportunity 00:23:27.280 --> 00:23:28.840 you have with that small audience. 00:23:28.870 --> 00:23:31.690 And I'm wondering like, how many of these calls are emails that I'm getting 00:23:32.230 --> 00:23:35.260 are due to the fact that either a, just really bad targeting, like they're 00:23:35.620 --> 00:23:39.040 just lazy and they've somehow made some assumptions that are wrong about me? 00:23:39.730 --> 00:23:40.360 Or is it. 00:23:41.235 --> 00:23:43.440 , they've actually already expunged all the people. 00:23:43.530 --> 00:23:46.140 And now I'm like on the fringe and they're hoping that, eh, 00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:47.700 maybe this guy will say yes to me. 00:23:48.120 --> 00:23:49.410 Like what, what are your thoughts on that? 00:23:49.410 --> 00:23:51.060 Cause I know you guys are doing this right now. 00:23:51.150 --> 00:23:51.240 Yep. 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:54.570 What are the dynamics you think that affect this sort of thing that's going 00:23:54.570 --> 00:23:55.830 on inside these companies right now? 00:23:55.830 --> 00:23:59.430 So, not to be in bad form and contradict my, my host, but I'll give you, I 00:23:59.435 --> 00:24:01.030 know you're, you're smart enough that. 00:24:01.530 --> 00:24:02.139 It's okay. 00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:04.260 I enough to know that's why we're here. 00:24:04.330 --> 00:24:05.860 A little bit of a different approach, right? 00:24:06.170 --> 00:24:06.659 Yeah. 00:24:06.790 --> 00:24:10.230 So fundamentally, I don't agree with the fact that, you know, 00:24:10.290 --> 00:24:12.030 that getting it wrong is o it. 00:24:12.030 --> 00:24:14.700 I know you didn't say it's okay, but like, eh, you kind of just, ah, they're gonna 00:24:14.700 --> 00:24:17.159 get it wrong some of the time and ah, they don't really know that ta It's like, 00:24:17.159 --> 00:24:20.070 well, I think it's just like anything, you know, things go wrong sometimes. 00:24:20.070 --> 00:24:24.210 I, I, I think when you're dealing with a large sets of opportunities 00:24:24.210 --> 00:24:27.690 in repetition, you know you're gonna have, like anything, there's gonna. 00:24:28.120 --> 00:24:29.169 Some misses. 00:24:29.169 --> 00:24:29.379 Right. 00:24:29.379 --> 00:24:30.580 I'm not saying it's a good thing. 00:24:30.580 --> 00:24:31.300 I agree with you. 00:24:31.300 --> 00:24:32.709 I don't, I'm not saying that you should allow it. 00:24:32.709 --> 00:24:33.939 I'm simply saying it's a fact. 00:24:33.939 --> 00:24:35.080 It's like physics, you know? 00:24:35.080 --> 00:24:38.649 Like you, you're not gonna get it right all the time, but Okay, go ahead. 00:24:38.800 --> 00:24:44.320 I'll So, so, so part of our mission is to eliminate that whole assumption and 00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:47.590 that whole level of like, it's okay. 00:24:48.010 --> 00:24:48.310 Right. 00:24:48.310 --> 00:24:52.540 People do need to know exactly how big their TAM is. 00:24:52.540 --> 00:24:53.889 Where are those people? 00:24:53.889 --> 00:24:55.030 Where are those companies? 00:24:55.030 --> 00:24:56.919 Where are those personas that we want to meet? 00:24:57.250 --> 00:24:57.399 Right. 00:24:57.405 --> 00:25:01.840 And like the acceptance of things like bounce rates in the 20 to 40% 00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:03.490 we're like, that is not acceptable. 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:04.210 Okay. 00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:06.669 That's, that's not, that's an assumption. 00:25:07.264 --> 00:25:12.690 , uh, or a, a, a conclusion that we just simply don't agree is okay, 00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:14.670 like that doesn't get it done. 00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:15.149 Sure. 00:25:15.155 --> 00:25:16.440 For us and for our customers. 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:18.180 And then, and then I would also, yeah. 00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:18.629 Yeah. 00:25:18.629 --> 00:25:23.340 I would, I would also add, you know, gr I, and I think people did the best they 00:25:23.340 --> 00:25:25.570 could with what they knew was mm-hmm. 00:25:25.830 --> 00:25:30.600 available, but like the world and the availability of information 00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:32.040 and the technology around. 00:25:33.090 --> 00:25:41.130 Uh, when applied in a more effective way, can yield dramatically improved outcomes. 00:25:41.870 --> 00:25:43.815 . Which is, which is what we are doing. 00:25:44.235 --> 00:25:48.315 Oh, your supposition here is this, your supposition here is that, is that because 00:25:48.315 --> 00:25:51.405 of the way that we are today and the world today, the sophistication that we 00:25:51.405 --> 00:25:53.745 have available today, there's no excuse. 00:25:54.045 --> 00:25:55.365 Like you should be able to get it right. 00:25:55.365 --> 00:25:55.665 Right. 00:25:55.665 --> 00:25:56.985 That's basically what I'm hearing you say. 00:25:57.045 --> 00:25:57.195 Right. 00:25:57.195 --> 00:25:58.065 It's start to get it right. 00:25:58.185 --> 00:25:58.725 Okay, I got it. 00:25:58.725 --> 00:25:59.475 Right, right. 00:25:59.685 --> 00:26:02.745 So then my question to you is this, cuz I, I, I'd rather avoid getting 00:26:02.745 --> 00:26:05.715 into a conversation about your company, but more about your philosophy, 00:26:05.745 --> 00:26:07.545 which is then why is it not right? 00:26:07.545 --> 00:26:11.720 In other words, . Everyone has the same availability, the same technologies and 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:12.980 everything, and everybody wants that. 00:26:13.010 --> 00:26:14.930 I mean, I don't think I'd sit down with any c e O right now 00:26:14.935 --> 00:26:16.040 that would say, oh yeah, sure. 00:26:16.040 --> 00:26:17.540 I want to get crap in my system. 00:26:17.540 --> 00:26:17.930 They don't. 00:26:17.930 --> 00:26:19.220 They all want it to work, right. 00:26:19.340 --> 00:26:21.860 So what I'm saying is, why is it not? 00:26:21.860 --> 00:26:23.570 Is it because they don't know what they're doing? 00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:25.910 Is it like financial pressure? 00:26:26.330 --> 00:26:27.710 Is it culture? 00:26:27.770 --> 00:26:29.060 Is it technology? 00:26:29.060 --> 00:26:29.900 Is it skill? 00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:30.590 Is it knowledge? 00:26:30.590 --> 00:26:32.300 Like, what do you think it is given the cause? 00:26:32.300 --> 00:26:32.900 I agree with you. 00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:35.780 There shouldn't be any reason why anybody gets this wrong 00:26:35.780 --> 00:26:37.640 anymore, but so many people do. 00:26:38.110 --> 00:26:39.050 What's happening? 00:26:39.110 --> 00:26:39.230 Yeah. 00:26:39.230 --> 00:26:41.390 In your view, that's going on out there, that it's going on, 00:26:41.395 --> 00:26:42.470 what's the, what's the reason? 00:26:42.470 --> 00:26:49.140 So sometimes I think it's, it's a little bit of a, Of a, of a mindset around like 00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:52.020 cast that wide net, get every deal we can. 00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:54.810 Even the ones out on the fringe, even if they're not a great fit, 00:26:54.815 --> 00:26:56.550 like, like let's just like get it in. 00:26:56.550 --> 00:26:56.790 Right. 00:26:56.795 --> 00:26:58.710 This is the vanity metric sort of thing. 00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:00.420 Well, I don't know that it's vanity. 00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:03.150 I think these are, look, these are all very bright people. 00:27:03.270 --> 00:27:04.680 They're not unintelligent. 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:05.470 They know exactly. 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.910 They, I mean these people are, and excuse me, but many of them. 00:27:09.524 --> 00:27:11.145 Much more skilled than I am. 00:27:11.385 --> 00:27:12.135 Sure, sure. 00:27:12.135 --> 00:27:12.524 Right. 00:27:12.735 --> 00:27:13.034 I get it. 00:27:13.034 --> 00:27:16.875 Are are making some very good decisions with, with what they know, but there is 00:27:16.875 --> 00:27:21.284 this like risk of like, well, should we just cast the net a little bit wider? 00:27:21.284 --> 00:27:23.024 A little bit wider? 00:27:23.085 --> 00:27:28.754 Then you're doing that with some people that you know, these young professionals 00:27:28.760 --> 00:27:34.784 that maybe not have been as well trained, so you're maybe starting sales cycles. 00:27:36.555 --> 00:27:40.995 People on the fringe versus like those people at the core that you really meet. 00:27:41.595 --> 00:27:46.425 You know, they have an intense level of challenges that you solve. 00:27:46.575 --> 00:27:46.665 Sure. 00:27:46.965 --> 00:27:47.865 With your solution. 00:27:48.255 --> 00:27:50.175 That's like your ideal customer profile. 00:27:50.175 --> 00:27:50.415 Yeah. 00:27:50.475 --> 00:27:55.965 I would say if you can put more energy into that, i C P, not only are you 00:27:55.965 --> 00:28:00.285 gonna close deals at a higher rate, but you're gonna retain them all Right. 00:28:00.285 --> 00:28:01.905 You're gonna have a chance to expand them. 00:28:02.205 --> 00:28:02.445 Yep. 00:28:03.780 --> 00:28:06.180 The, this idea of like, we don't know. 00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:10.650 Now, I'm not saying that you sort of put your blinders on and focus. 00:28:11.310 --> 00:28:15.480 If you wanna see what's out in the fringe, then go run some experiments 00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:20.730 that you can actually measure and execute against to, to run a test. 00:28:21.090 --> 00:28:21.270 Right? 00:28:21.275 --> 00:28:22.380 You want to go to a new vertical? 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:23.040 Absolutely. 00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:23.400 Go there. 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:24.090 I love that. 00:28:24.450 --> 00:28:24.750 Sure. 00:28:24.755 --> 00:28:28.920 Actually, but do it in a very structured way with a degree of knowledge and don't, 00:28:29.010 --> 00:28:32.430 don't rely on maybe your existing team. 00:28:33.735 --> 00:28:36.105 To execute that experimentation. 00:28:36.105 --> 00:28:37.845 It's, it's gonna debilitate them. 00:28:37.845 --> 00:28:39.945 It's gonna demoralize them if it's not successful. 00:28:39.945 --> 00:28:43.605 But if they go into it saying, Hey gang, we're gonna go out 00:28:43.605 --> 00:28:44.955 and we're gonna like, go test. 00:28:44.955 --> 00:28:47.505 We're gonna go, we're gonna dive into the jungle and we're gonna 00:28:47.505 --> 00:28:48.645 see if there's a path here. 00:28:48.765 --> 00:28:49.065 Got it. 00:28:49.275 --> 00:28:49.605 Right. 00:28:49.665 --> 00:28:52.065 So then you're, you're, you're, let's say, because I, I hear you. 00:28:52.275 --> 00:28:53.895 Let's say you're a chief revenue officer at a company. 00:28:54.794 --> 00:28:58.125 , get your job to, as you say, steward, make all these things that are going on. 00:28:58.605 --> 00:28:58.665 Yeah. 00:28:58.695 --> 00:29:02.024 And you know, you're getting a directive, um, that might sound, 00:29:02.024 --> 00:29:03.074 I, I'm sure it happens a lot. 00:29:03.080 --> 00:29:06.195 Something like pipeline's just not big enough. 00:29:07.965 --> 00:29:09.284 I'm looking at the system. 00:29:09.314 --> 00:29:13.485 I, I did a run at readout of our Salesforce and we're just seeing, it just 00:29:13.485 --> 00:29:17.205 seems light to me, you know, given the, the metrics that you've provided us in 00:29:17.205 --> 00:29:20.085 terms of our close rates and our time to close and whatever the case may be. 00:29:21.135 --> 00:29:22.304 Um, the sales cycle. 00:29:23.205 --> 00:29:26.895 We're concerned that, you know, we're not gonna have enough opportunities in 00:29:26.895 --> 00:29:31.034 the, in the pipe in another three or four months, and I need you to get it up there. 00:29:32.715 --> 00:29:38.175 Now you know that you've been following the philosophy that you've just laid 00:29:38.175 --> 00:29:40.965 out, which you, you've been really targeted and really focused on having 00:29:40.965 --> 00:29:43.814 the right conversations, and you and I know that those take a little bit longer. 00:29:43.814 --> 00:29:45.465 You nurture people, et cetera, et cetera. 00:29:45.585 --> 00:29:46.004 Yep. 00:29:46.365 --> 00:29:49.095 And someone's basically saying to look, just increase it. 00:29:50.034 --> 00:29:50.325 I. 00:29:50.774 --> 00:29:54.584 My board is looking at this and they're really worried and they have a concern 00:29:54.584 --> 00:29:59.115 now that, you know, the pipeline seems to reflect right, the opportunities we 00:29:59.120 --> 00:30:02.445 have in the marketplace and that cascades towards, you know, some bad returns and 00:30:02.445 --> 00:30:03.675 we need you to do something about it. 00:30:04.425 --> 00:30:08.504 What's the CROs way to handle that in your context so that 00:30:08.510 --> 00:30:10.064 they can deal with that reality? 00:30:10.064 --> 00:30:12.344 That happens a lot, you know, what do you think? 00:30:12.344 --> 00:30:12.764 Yeah. 00:30:13.544 --> 00:30:19.245 Um, look, I think that there needs to be a, a level of understanding before. 00:30:20.100 --> 00:30:22.545 , it gets to that point, right? 00:30:22.545 --> 00:30:26.805 Once that horse has sort of left the barn, it's really hard to get it back in. 00:30:26.805 --> 00:30:31.185 Like you don't have a time machine, so you can't go back and start looking at 00:30:31.185 --> 00:30:33.195 like, why are we winning some deals? 00:30:33.735 --> 00:30:35.835 Why are we losing some deals? 00:30:36.285 --> 00:30:40.755 Where, where maybe does this same issue exist in maybe an 00:30:40.755 --> 00:30:43.095 adjacent market like the job? 00:30:44.020 --> 00:30:47.264 of the cro O is to be seeing around those corners. 00:30:47.354 --> 00:30:47.445 Mm-hmm. 00:30:47.834 --> 00:30:48.705 in advance. 00:30:48.945 --> 00:30:49.245 Yep. 00:30:49.334 --> 00:30:49.695 Right. 00:30:49.695 --> 00:30:54.195 So yes, all of the metrics of what's happening today, but being fully 00:30:54.195 --> 00:30:58.844 aware and, and in lockstep with the c e o and frankly the board to know, 00:30:58.844 --> 00:31:02.655 like where, where we need to get to, they start seeing pipeline drying up 00:31:03.615 --> 00:31:08.385 if their, if their metrics are being followed and they know their unit 00:31:08.385 --> 00:31:11.475 economics and, and all the associated. 00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:14.370 Measures around their business. 00:31:14.490 --> 00:31:16.980 They should have seen this coming long before. 00:31:17.745 --> 00:31:17.985 . Okay. 00:31:18.625 --> 00:31:20.895 Recognizing like there, there's a challenge, like what do you do about it? 00:31:20.895 --> 00:31:25.395 Now look, you're going to, you, you dig in with your teams and you start relying 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:27.185 on the people around you to see mm-hmm. 00:31:27.265 --> 00:31:30.405 , if there's any other insight, is there anything we should be changing 00:31:30.405 --> 00:31:31.755 about how we're going about it? 00:31:31.755 --> 00:31:35.895 Has there been some shift, for example, externally in the market, like we 00:31:35.895 --> 00:31:37.335 haven't seen with the competitor? 00:31:37.575 --> 00:31:41.055 What, what is, what is it that's bringing about all of a sudden if 00:31:41.060 --> 00:31:44.835 we were doing really well, well, what is it that's changed and 00:31:44.835 --> 00:31:46.485 now as a group, what can we do? 00:31:47.455 --> 00:31:47.815 Hmm. 00:31:47.925 --> 00:31:48.455 . Yeah, I agree. 00:31:48.455 --> 00:31:50.205 So I would, I would lean on the people around. 00:31:50.355 --> 00:31:53.715 So you're, you're saying it really has to do really with the upfront work that you 00:31:53.715 --> 00:31:56.685 do, not the tactical work that Absolutely. 00:31:56.685 --> 00:31:57.075 Right. 00:31:57.475 --> 00:32:02.145 And frankly, I agree with, and, and frankly, I would say it gets down to 00:32:02.145 --> 00:32:08.535 the level, to some of your most junior people and how they're being supported 00:32:08.535 --> 00:32:14.504 and nurtured and how they're, how they're being, uh, to level up their 00:32:14.504 --> 00:32:17.115 professional and technical skills. 00:32:17.415 --> 00:32:17.804 Yeah. 00:32:18.495 --> 00:32:20.115 You know, I agree. 00:32:20.235 --> 00:32:23.024 It's all much about the framework of setting things up. 00:32:23.024 --> 00:32:25.215 And we'll get into this cuz I wanna just chat a bit about. 00:32:25.590 --> 00:32:27.510 Some of the evidence of how this isn't happening. 00:32:27.510 --> 00:32:32.250 And, you know, I see these, um, and again, I, I, I don't want sound like 00:32:32.250 --> 00:32:35.520 I'm demeaning like this whole group of people because I, I talk a lot 00:32:35.520 --> 00:32:39.450 about the SDR thing and you know, the pushback is, oh, come on, these are great 00:32:39.450 --> 00:32:41.070 people and they're doing a hard job. 00:32:41.075 --> 00:32:42.180 And, you know, it's a tough thing and I. 00:32:42.350 --> 00:32:43.580 Totally agree with that. 00:32:43.580 --> 00:32:46.070 Like, I don't have any issue at all with the people that 00:32:46.070 --> 00:32:46.909 are making these phone calls. 00:32:46.915 --> 00:32:48.530 I don't, they're just doing their job. 00:32:48.530 --> 00:32:50.419 They're being told to do something and they're doing it and they're 00:32:50.419 --> 00:32:52.909 doing difficult job, and they're, some of 'em are really good at it. 00:32:52.909 --> 00:32:56.810 So it's not that it's the, it's the strategy I have a problem with. 00:32:57.620 --> 00:32:59.629 It's the deployment that I have a problem with. 00:33:00.290 --> 00:33:03.080 It's that some of these people are being asked to make a hundred calls 00:33:03.080 --> 00:33:05.689 a day or whatever the metric is. 00:33:07.020 --> 00:33:11.220 That maybe was fueling my earlier comment, which is if I'm gonna make a hundred 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:14.730 calls a day, I know that, you know, a good point of be people that I probably 00:33:14.730 --> 00:33:17.160 shouldn't have called in the first place, but I have to make a hundred calls a day. 00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:20.850 So it's sort of baked into the system to some degree that I'm gonna do a lot 00:33:20.850 --> 00:33:25.380 of misses, but the volume gets the, the check mark at the end of the day, right? 00:33:25.385 --> 00:33:25.900 Mm-hmm. 00:33:26.220 --> 00:33:30.180 . And so, so the way that I would like to walk through something with you 00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:34.860 is, so what I counsel my clients on getting a chief revenue officer job, I 00:33:34.865 --> 00:33:36.030 tell 'em the same thing you just did. 00:33:36.810 --> 00:33:40.169 I say, look, your job success is gonna be predicated on one thing, 00:33:40.889 --> 00:33:43.290 and that is the agreement that you have with your C E O and how 00:33:43.290 --> 00:33:44.370 you're gonna go to market together. 00:33:44.429 --> 00:33:46.709 Because if you don't have that together, then you're sort of at the mercy 00:33:46.715 --> 00:33:48.330 of every whim that comes up, right? 00:33:48.750 --> 00:33:49.050 Yes. 00:33:49.260 --> 00:33:50.070 How do you do that, right? 00:33:50.070 --> 00:33:51.030 How do you establish it? 00:33:51.030 --> 00:33:54.149 So I wanna ask you that question, so, so you're look at it from 00:33:54.149 --> 00:33:54.990 both perspectives, right? 00:33:54.990 --> 00:33:56.770 You're a C R O or a C E O. 00:33:57.120 --> 00:34:02.070 What's the manner in which you'd suggest or advise counsel a new c 00:34:02.070 --> 00:34:05.490 r o to establish that relationship so that that doesn't happen? 00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:06.090 What's the. 00:34:06.969 --> 00:34:08.810 to do that in your I see. 00:34:08.810 --> 00:34:11.940 Any the, it's the key element that has to exist in any meaningful 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:13.529 relationship and its trust. 00:34:14.339 --> 00:34:18.330 I think there's a level of credibility that has to come along with that. 00:34:18.335 --> 00:34:24.480 I think there's a level of transparency and a personal accountability 00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:27.839 goes an awful long way, you know? 00:34:28.654 --> 00:34:31.560 . It's doing those little things in the beginning. 00:34:31.560 --> 00:34:33.330 Those things that you really can do as you're trying to get your 00:34:33.330 --> 00:34:35.670 feet underneath you as you're trying to understand the business. 00:34:35.670 --> 00:34:41.880 It's overcommunicating and it, it's really helping that c e o understand, 00:34:41.884 --> 00:34:45.480 like, wow, this person really like, knows what they're doing. 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:47.250 They're looking down the road. 00:34:47.429 --> 00:34:48.420 They're buttoned up. 00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:51.659 They're, they're giving me, I'm gonna say like giving me energy 00:34:51.665 --> 00:34:53.130 because they're not making me really. 00:34:54.250 --> 00:34:58.230 and like have to put in like a lot of extra work to understand what's going on. 00:34:58.259 --> 00:35:01.350 They're, they're actually, they're, they're making me smarter. 00:35:01.560 --> 00:35:02.049 Yeah. 00:35:02.049 --> 00:35:02.490 Right. 00:35:02.495 --> 00:35:02.520 Yeah. 00:35:02.520 --> 00:35:06.359 And I think that that goes a very long way into establishing that trusting 00:35:06.359 --> 00:35:08.430 relationship and that healthy dynamic. 00:35:08.850 --> 00:35:13.319 Of, Hey, we're not like looking across the, the room pointing 00:35:13.319 --> 00:35:14.430 our fingers at each other. 00:35:14.430 --> 00:35:19.259 We're actually sitting next to each other at a table looking at the same problem, 00:35:19.259 --> 00:35:23.160 maybe from different angles, but really driving to that same ultimate conclusion 00:35:23.160 --> 00:35:24.660 that we've all agreed is our objective. 00:35:24.660 --> 00:35:25.439 Yeah, I got it. 00:35:25.444 --> 00:35:29.430 And so, you know, my a hundred percent agree, it, it, it, I think 00:35:29.430 --> 00:35:30.839 it starts to, the interview process. 00:35:31.965 --> 00:35:32.265 , right? 00:35:32.505 --> 00:35:37.215 I mean, so again, big conversation to have with my clients a lot is when you're 00:35:37.275 --> 00:35:41.775 looking at a Chief Revenue officer role, like instead of being in a situation 00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:46.305 where you're just trying to get the job, try and create the job right. 00:35:47.095 --> 00:35:51.345 the job that's gonna work because this is a job that traditionally doesn't 00:35:51.345 --> 00:35:56.265 last . Most CROs last about 17 months or 18 months or something like that. 00:35:56.985 --> 00:35:58.575 And that's not good for either party, right? 00:35:58.575 --> 00:36:00.585 I mean, it's a very expensive failure, right? 00:36:00.585 --> 00:36:01.215 For everyone. 00:36:01.725 --> 00:36:06.165 Um, and so, you know, I'm, and I'm in the, I'm in the midst of this 00:36:06.165 --> 00:36:08.775 discussion with a lot of my clients right now, which is what's the 00:36:08.775 --> 00:36:10.215 right way to set the foundation up. 00:36:11.355 --> 00:36:15.435 To that end, um, this kind of gets into the conversation about hiring, which 00:36:15.435 --> 00:36:18.795 I know you and I have talked about a little bit too, and the way that CROs 00:36:18.795 --> 00:36:21.884 need to start thinking differently about hiring and, you know, this is 00:36:21.975 --> 00:36:25.605 a whole other like big disciplinary problem we're seeing in the marketplace. 00:36:25.605 --> 00:36:29.055 I have more and more friends of mine or people that I know that are incredibly 00:36:29.055 --> 00:36:33.315 skilled at something, but they can't get jobs because the hiring criteria. 00:36:33.870 --> 00:36:36.299 is not looking for the skills that they have, it's looking for 00:36:36.299 --> 00:36:38.129 other things that are different. 00:36:38.129 --> 00:36:38.370 Right. 00:36:38.970 --> 00:36:43.109 And so, you know, people are making the wrong very, I think sometimes superficial 00:36:43.115 --> 00:36:46.799 hiring decisions and they're not predicating it on what people really need. 00:36:46.799 --> 00:36:50.400 So I'm just curious, if you're a c o and you're in a situation where you're 00:36:50.850 --> 00:36:55.020 building your team, what are some thoughts you have on the way hiring is changing 00:36:55.020 --> 00:36:56.069 and the way you need to be looking? 00:36:56.129 --> 00:36:56.220 Oof. 00:36:56.759 --> 00:37:01.379 Um, you know, I don't know that it's really, that it's really changed. 00:37:02.015 --> 00:37:05.669 , um, for me, so to, to call it, you know, how I see it changing. 00:37:05.669 --> 00:37:12.120 I mean, look, there's definitely been this, this, um, this, this shift from 00:37:12.120 --> 00:37:18.629 a, it being sort of a candidate market to a, to a company market, right? 00:37:18.629 --> 00:37:19.020 It's right. 00:37:19.740 --> 00:37:25.649 Um, you know, people that, that didn't want to talk to me, uh, two months ago 00:37:25.649 --> 00:37:28.290 or now they're, now they're calling me, they want to talk again cuz 00:37:28.350 --> 00:37:29.790 you know, we're hiring up the team. 00:37:31.310 --> 00:37:36.255 Um, so I don't, I don't know that it's really changed for me. 00:37:36.465 --> 00:37:45.045 Uh, I would say that one of the things that I struggle with and, and I hope 00:37:45.045 --> 00:37:48.135 the recruiters out there, don't get angry at me because I know you're 00:37:48.140 --> 00:37:51.315 doing what you've been asked, which is like, I feel like when you're working 00:37:51.315 --> 00:37:55.170 with a client sometimes, , like you're looking for the client to describe the 00:37:55.170 --> 00:37:58.860 ice cube tray, and then your job is to go out and find ice cubes that like 00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:01.290 fit into it from a technical skill. 00:38:02.430 --> 00:38:09.600 And given sort of my, my background and, and my mentality as it relates to 00:38:09.605 --> 00:38:13.830 people and in general and professionals, I, I, I just like indications of 00:38:13.830 --> 00:38:17.370 people being interested in what they're doing and committed to it. 00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:23.235 Um, when I'm interviewing candidates, I'm frankly like, I, I've, I've interviewed 00:38:23.235 --> 00:38:26.955 some great candidates and when I ask 'em, like, tell me about the latest 00:38:26.955 --> 00:38:31.785 like sales book that you've read or tell me about like the things that you're 00:38:31.785 --> 00:38:33.705 doing every day to improve your craft. 00:38:33.705 --> 00:38:37.605 And I go, well, you know, I, I followed this person on LinkedIn and I've like 00:38:37.605 --> 00:38:41.475 watched a couple of YouTube videos and I'm, to me, I'm alright, well, what 00:38:41.475 --> 00:38:42.645 have you tell me about the latest one. 00:38:42.645 --> 00:38:43.815 You saw it, what'd you get out of it? 00:38:43.815 --> 00:38:44.745 How did you apply it? 00:38:46.710 --> 00:38:49.260 You know, they're not invested in themselves. 00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:49.740 Mm-hmm. 00:38:50.160 --> 00:38:52.920 , and I thought, I think, you know, geez, I'm, I'm about to like, give 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:56.850 a significant amount of my time and energy to this individual. 00:38:57.570 --> 00:38:59.070 I'd like to be met halfway. 00:38:59.130 --> 00:39:02.100 I'd like to be working with someone who's as, who is as interested. 00:39:03.055 --> 00:39:04.665 in themselves as I am mm-hmm. 00:39:04.935 --> 00:39:07.095 in terms of their professional success. 00:39:07.485 --> 00:39:07.725 Okay. 00:39:07.725 --> 00:39:11.145 And it just sometimes you don't see, it sounds like that that's, uh, 00:39:11.145 --> 00:39:12.945 you're speaking to candidates, right. 00:39:12.945 --> 00:39:15.615 Whom are bringing themselves to the marketplace and how they 00:39:15.615 --> 00:39:17.565 should be positioning themselves. 00:39:17.625 --> 00:39:20.895 Well, I think it's, I think it's that, but also, you know, for. 00:39:20.950 --> 00:39:23.770 For people that we're being, that we're asking to help us 00:39:23.770 --> 00:39:26.890 find really good candidates, like we, we give them direction that 00:39:27.069 --> 00:39:27.970 Oh, I see what you're saying. 00:39:28.339 --> 00:39:30.710 It's not just about the technical Yeah. 00:39:30.714 --> 00:39:31.390 Fitting, fitting a box. 00:39:31.779 --> 00:39:34.240 You know, I, I talk to a lot of recruiters and, and the problem 00:39:34.240 --> 00:39:36.730 that most of them have, as you probably know, is that they do bring. 00:39:36.820 --> 00:39:39.280 Innovative people or different types of people to the table. 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:40.540 And their boss goes, what'd you bring me? 00:39:40.540 --> 00:39:42.070 This person for this person isn't a fit. 00:39:42.070 --> 00:39:42.730 Get 'em outta here. 00:39:42.730 --> 00:39:43.060 You know? 00:39:43.660 --> 00:39:45.070 Um, you don't know what you're doing. 00:39:45.070 --> 00:39:45.460 You know? 00:39:45.465 --> 00:39:48.430 Uh, I asked you to get me the square peg to go into the square peg, 00:39:48.430 --> 00:39:49.360 and you brought me a round one. 00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:50.110 Get outta my office. 00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:51.010 This person is so good. 00:39:51.430 --> 00:39:52.720 And I used to have this conversation. 00:39:52.720 --> 00:39:54.610 I was working in a big, big company and they had this, you 00:39:54.610 --> 00:39:55.480 know, recruiting department. 00:39:55.480 --> 00:39:57.460 They'd say to me, you know, dude, they don't, they don't 00:39:57.465 --> 00:39:58.510 want people that are innovative. 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:01.780 If I, if I bring somebody to the table that has this specific type 00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:05.660 of you, Business skill or this specific type of personality trait 00:40:05.660 --> 00:40:06.890 that I know would be good here. 00:40:07.250 --> 00:40:10.040 They look at them and they say, this person never worked in an agency before. 00:40:10.040 --> 00:40:10.250 I don't. 00:40:10.250 --> 00:40:11.390 Why are you bringing this person to me? 00:40:11.390 --> 00:40:12.380 I don't even wanna talk to this person. 00:40:12.890 --> 00:40:14.450 So there's constraints, right? 00:40:14.690 --> 00:40:17.900 Um, so I, I, I, it, it's broken. 00:40:18.345 --> 00:40:19.964 I mean, there isn't any doubt about that. 00:40:20.085 --> 00:40:23.714 I mean, the problem right now too is, you know, if you put your resume in any 00:40:23.714 --> 00:40:27.375 one of these online systems right now, a bunch of AI bots look at a bunch of 00:40:27.375 --> 00:40:28.725 keywords and that's how they get show. 00:40:28.845 --> 00:40:30.884 So it's a, it's a robot that's making a decision. 00:40:31.484 --> 00:40:34.095 So, you know, I think there's two sides of this, right? 00:40:34.095 --> 00:40:36.705 One is you have a recruiting layer, right? 00:40:36.705 --> 00:40:39.734 Who you've deployed into the marketplace did sift through the marketplace 00:40:39.734 --> 00:40:41.025 for you and bring you back bodies. 00:40:42.120 --> 00:40:45.990 I understand that and I know that, you know, if I'm a small company, you know 00:40:45.990 --> 00:40:49.200 I have some degree of control over how I put those people to market and I can 00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:51.720 say, you know, I want you to look for innovators or I want you to look for 00:40:51.720 --> 00:40:53.670 people that can like address these things. 00:40:54.210 --> 00:40:55.890 I don't think most people are that creative. 00:40:55.890 --> 00:41:00.480 Most people say, I need a project manager and I need somebody who's been a project 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:04.980 manager at a company like this that's worked on projects like this successfully. 00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:07.410 Cuz I need someone to do that for me tomorrow. 00:41:08.385 --> 00:41:08.595 Right. 00:41:08.595 --> 00:41:12.255 I can't afford to like build this person up over the next six months 00:41:12.255 --> 00:41:13.365 cause I need this done tomorrow. 00:41:13.365 --> 00:41:17.385 I want someone that can jump right in here and get into my system and start doing it. 00:41:17.625 --> 00:41:18.705 And that's a real need. 00:41:18.705 --> 00:41:20.715 I don't think that's a, there's anything to be said about that. 00:41:20.720 --> 00:41:26.145 I think that we're working in an immediacy based society right now in our industries, 00:41:26.150 --> 00:41:27.335 which are, you know, very fast moving. 00:41:28.240 --> 00:41:30.040 and, you know, I'm, I'm guilty of this. 00:41:30.040 --> 00:41:31.990 I mean, I look for people and I'm like, I need someone that can, I can 00:41:31.990 --> 00:41:34.690 hire tomorrow and they can jump into my thing and fix it for me, you know? 00:41:35.470 --> 00:41:39.250 Um, and I probably am overlooking people who might be better at it if, 00:41:39.399 --> 00:41:42.009 you know, I gave 'em a little bit more time, but I don't have the time. 00:41:42.520 --> 00:41:45.160 So, you know, I'm looking at this, again, I, I don't wanna give this 00:41:45.160 --> 00:41:48.250 new recruiting conversation as much as, as a chief Revenue Officer, and 00:41:48.250 --> 00:41:50.529 I'm saying this again, from that perspective, you have a lot of people. 00:41:51.134 --> 00:41:51.734 Bring together. 00:41:52.245 --> 00:41:55.935 You've got marketing people, you've got sales people, you've got customer success 00:41:55.935 --> 00:41:57.645 people, you've got technical people. 00:41:58.515 --> 00:42:02.115 So, you know, what's the sort of, I don't know if there is an answer to this 00:42:02.115 --> 00:42:06.555 question, but you know, what's the Cro o's sort of perspective that needs to 00:42:06.555 --> 00:42:10.095 be brought to that conversation when the CRO wants to build the right team? 00:42:10.125 --> 00:42:12.794 Cuz this team is gonna be the way that that steward is gonna fulfill 00:42:12.794 --> 00:42:14.084 on the obligations that you have. 00:42:14.174 --> 00:42:14.475 Right? 00:42:14.685 --> 00:42:18.285 So I think one of the first things that you want to do is, 00:42:18.285 --> 00:42:20.234 you know, rely on the structure. 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.900 That any structure that you have in place, you wanna leverage, right? 00:42:25.410 --> 00:42:29.250 Whether it's your head of customer success, focusing 00:42:29.250 --> 00:42:30.930 on their, on their people. 00:42:31.230 --> 00:42:34.800 Um, and you're also supporting them, right? 00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:39.330 That first team mentality of really helping out your teammates internally. 00:42:39.890 --> 00:42:44.520 So I think in a way you've gotta have them sort of shoulder. 00:42:45.295 --> 00:42:52.170 some of the, the load in terms of hiring and you really owe it to them to 00:42:52.170 --> 00:42:58.920 give them a structure in which to have candidates participate in an interview 00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:00.990 process that's really well thought out. 00:43:01.860 --> 00:43:02.100 Right? 00:43:02.100 --> 00:43:06.091 It has to be detailed and it's less about maybe the titles they've had 00:43:06.096 --> 00:43:09.120 or the companies they've been in and necessarily maybe the industries, 00:43:09.450 --> 00:43:11.220 but there are other elements. 00:43:11.740 --> 00:43:16.004 that you will also want to have on that scorecard for a particular role. 00:43:16.154 --> 00:43:16.245 Mm-hmm. 00:43:16.484 --> 00:43:18.315 , but you've gotta do that homework upfront. 00:43:18.404 --> 00:43:19.015 Mm-hmm. 00:43:19.395 --> 00:43:20.214 in terms of defin. 00:43:21.270 --> 00:43:23.655 , like what is a good fit for this position? 00:43:23.835 --> 00:43:24.705 Yeah, yeah. 00:43:24.855 --> 00:43:28.785 But then also rely on the structure that you have in place. 00:43:28.790 --> 00:43:30.525 Other, other managers or teammates. 00:43:30.525 --> 00:43:34.545 I mean, shoot, I've got AEs on our team now doing role play 00:43:34.545 --> 00:43:35.985 interviews with candidates. 00:43:36.065 --> 00:43:36.305 Yeah. 00:43:36.825 --> 00:43:37.005 Yeah. 00:43:37.005 --> 00:43:40.035 It sounds like it's more like, um, a competency based 00:43:40.035 --> 00:43:41.505 approach as opposed to a job. 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.260 Approach, which I agree with, and you have to assess those competencies. 00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:48.110 So we're getting close to end here cause we, you and I can talk for another hour. 00:43:48.110 --> 00:43:48.380 I can tell. 00:43:48.590 --> 00:43:48.910 Sure. 00:43:48.915 --> 00:43:52.790 But, um, I wanna give you a minute to just expound on one thing before I close out. 00:43:53.150 --> 00:43:57.350 And that is, is this, um, if you could give a, I'm trying to think 00:43:57.350 --> 00:43:58.070 how to do this the best way. 00:43:59.025 --> 00:44:02.835 If you could, if you were speaking to a chief executive officer of a company 00:44:02.924 --> 00:44:06.315 that you like kinda look at in the space that we are in, like a revenue, 00:44:06.435 --> 00:44:10.575 uh, like a subscription based or a SaaS based company right now, and they 00:44:10.575 --> 00:44:12.375 were looking to hire their first c R O. 00:44:13.545 --> 00:44:15.885 In a, in a minute, what would be some of the things that you'd say 00:44:15.885 --> 00:44:19.155 they need to be thinking about to appoint their first chief revenue 00:44:19.155 --> 00:44:22.455 officer and the approach they should take before they make that decision? 00:44:22.455 --> 00:44:28.815 So I would, I would have them do some introspection on themselves, maybe where 00:44:28.815 --> 00:44:31.905 they see some of their, their gaps. 00:44:32.475 --> 00:44:36.645 Um, working closer to strengths, some areas where they would really 00:44:36.645 --> 00:44:39.945 be looking for a partner in crime to. 00:44:41.865 --> 00:44:48.225 To collaborate with and then, um, you know, maybe look at areas where they're, 00:44:48.315 --> 00:44:53.745 they have strengths that maybe they don't necessarily need this person to possess. 00:44:53.745 --> 00:44:55.935 Sort of a nice to have, need to have. 00:44:56.745 --> 00:45:04.215 Um, I would also say that spends get plan on spending some time with this person. 00:45:05.314 --> 00:45:11.069 , um, maybe consider some type of arrangement where you're able to 00:45:11.069 --> 00:45:15.419 work with them on a contract basis for a period of time leading up to 00:45:15.419 --> 00:45:16.649 the hire, if they're open to that. 00:45:16.654 --> 00:45:19.500 It kind of gives both parties the chance to get to know each other date 00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:20.850 before you get married, so to speak. 00:45:21.149 --> 00:45:21.480 Yep. 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:21.481 Yep. 00:45:22.020 --> 00:45:22.200 Okay. 00:45:22.259 --> 00:45:29.310 Um, and, uh, uh, I would say that, um, you know, understand the technical 00:45:29.310 --> 00:45:31.200 skills that you want this person to. 00:45:32.745 --> 00:45:37.105 and just ensure that they can either like, lock that down or have resources 00:45:37.109 --> 00:45:42.404 to, to quickly get schooled up on the areas where they may not have 00:45:42.585 --> 00:45:47.174 as strong a, a visibility of, you know, the technical side of things. 00:45:47.685 --> 00:45:51.315 Um, we talked about our, talked about it earlier, Warren, is this idea of, 00:45:51.585 --> 00:45:56.565 I would put a high emphasis on the professional skills, the leadership 00:45:56.565 --> 00:45:58.455 skills, times where they failed. 00:45:58.975 --> 00:45:59.585 Mm-hmm. 00:45:59.665 --> 00:46:00.865 , where they speak freely about. 00:46:01.595 --> 00:46:01.875 . Mm-hmm. 00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:03.255 , are they gonna withhold that? 00:46:03.255 --> 00:46:07.725 Do they have the confidence to, to speak to that and articulate like where 00:46:07.725 --> 00:46:10.635 they've, where they've won mm-hmm. 00:46:10.995 --> 00:46:14.265 despite those, those losses, like what are they made of? 00:46:14.505 --> 00:46:15.115 Mm-hmm. 00:46:15.975 --> 00:46:16.425 . Right. 00:46:16.845 --> 00:46:18.645 Um, spend some time doing that. 00:46:19.725 --> 00:46:21.315 Because it is a very important hire. 00:46:21.345 --> 00:46:21.525 Yep. 00:46:21.675 --> 00:46:23.475 It's, it's the, the most important hire. 00:46:24.134 --> 00:46:26.745 So all, we're running out of time, but this was great. 00:46:26.805 --> 00:46:29.325 Like I really had really some great, I hope people find it helpful. 00:46:29.775 --> 00:46:30.465 I appreciate you. 00:46:32.055 --> 00:46:33.225 Yeah, no, no problem. 00:46:33.225 --> 00:46:36.285 I mean, it's a good topic cuz I think the CROs are being hired wrong, 00:46:36.435 --> 00:46:37.365 you know, to be honest with you. 00:46:37.365 --> 00:46:38.445 They're not being hired properly. 00:46:39.015 --> 00:46:41.835 Um, and your perspective is really valuable, so thank you for that. 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:44.450 So how can people reach you and, and what's the best way they can get in 00:46:44.450 --> 00:46:45.350 touch with you and what are you up to? 00:46:45.410 --> 00:46:52.910 Yeah, so, uh, uh, the best way is, uh, Mike revenue base.ai, um, is my email. 00:46:52.910 --> 00:46:57.470 I, I will just say I look, I've been where people are when they've struggled, 00:46:57.475 --> 00:47:00.680 and one of the things I'd always hoped is that somebody would just take a 00:47:00.680 --> 00:47:05.450 minute and listen to me and maybe help me out a little bit and not just, 00:47:05.930 --> 00:47:07.730 you know, dismiss me out of hand. 00:47:07.730 --> 00:47:11.090 So I promised myself that if I was ever in a position to help somebody, I was gonna. 00:47:12.265 --> 00:47:17.280 and, um, so I'm, I'm all ears to anybody that, you know, may want to 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:24.540 chat and, uh, maybe have a, have a, a, a method of sort of, you know, safe 00:47:24.540 --> 00:47:27.780 place to talk and some place to provide 'em with a little bit of support. 00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:30.360 Who isn't gonna go around gossiping about the challenges, who's gonna 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:31.770 more revel in their successes? 00:47:31.770 --> 00:47:34.920 So, um, that's probably the best way of getting ahold of me. 00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:35.820 I'm on linked. 00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:41.445 , um, it's, uh, Michael j Schumann is, is the handle. 00:47:41.655 --> 00:47:46.695 And, um, you know, I'm, like I said, I'm just thrilled to have been 00:47:46.695 --> 00:47:49.545 here and thanks Warren, and keep up the good work on your end too. 00:47:49.635 --> 00:47:50.265 Well, thank you. 00:47:50.270 --> 00:47:52.635 I, there's great conversation and you brought a lot of really 00:47:52.640 --> 00:47:53.775 good things to talk about here. 00:47:53.775 --> 00:47:56.325 So thank you very much for your perspective and your experience. 00:47:56.325 --> 00:47:58.755 So, uh, we're signing off Mike Schumann. 00:47:58.755 --> 00:48:01.455 Thank you very much and, uh, looking forward to talk to you more. 00:48:01.455 --> 00:48:01.785 Pleasure.