Good morning, great connections listeners.
Thank you for your patience on this last two week hiatus.
In full disclosure, I just started a new job at a flight school in central Oregon
and it has caused me to be able to have some challenges with recording the last
couple of weeks and I'm hoping moving forward there won't be as many delays but
just full disclosure that may happen in the future again.
But today I'm joined by Steve Brichette.
He's an EV educator and the founder of Plug and Play EV.
He shares with us his experience on electric vehicles, especially kind of
living in the Boston area now, dealing with sometimes the winter and cold of
Northeast US can be a challenge for EVs and how he's been able to really excel and
make it easier and educate others about the advantages of actually still being
able to go to an electric vehicle, even in the cold and try to get over a lot of
those misperceptions.
I do also want to share that if you're listening today on Wednesday, April 10th,
I'll actually be going live today at
5pm pacific on his youtube channel plug and play ev where i'll be discussing road
tripping in an ev so definitely going to be a great episode really recommend you
check that out and would love to kind of get any feedback and thoughts for being on
other channels as well which reminds me i want to say thank you for all of the great
suggestions for having people on our show that you've sent to us
One thing worth noting though, if you can also occasionally reach out to these
people that you're trying to get on the show, it does help and it makes it easier
for us to get them on.
But really looking forward to some of the upcoming episodes that we're working on.
And so I just want to say with that, enjoy.
So thank you, Steve.
Yeah, thank you, Chase I appreciate you having me.
Yeah, for anyone who might not be familiar, can you tell us a little bit
more about what you're doing and then also your company?
So I'm relatively new as an EV business, I guess, but a long time EV driver.
So I've had about seven or eight years now driving electric, but kind of came into
the business side of it as an EV content creator and educator, I guess, about six,
seven months ago.
So Plug and Play EV started live as a YouTube channel, just trying to kind of
bring the adventures of a lonely or adventurous, depending on how you think
about it, bolt EV driver in the Northeast.
heading across various trips, but that kind of evolved into a YouTube channel
that's got a nice little following now and has slowly moved into becoming kind of a
marketer and content creator in the EV space.
So I always try and put myself as an educator first and business second, but
the two align quite well.
So I mean, yeah, a bolt driver, there's especially in the Northeast with the
different weather and a lot of the challenges you get up there.
Is there anything you can share maybe just as a story that makes you a little
standout or a time that just you felt like being a heavy driver, whether it was the
infrastructure of the car that really kind of tested your metal?
All of it really.
Well, the Bolt's been a very solid EV, it has its obvious limitations on the fast
charging side, because it's four or five times slower than some of the more modern
cars.
But initially the channel kind of started out of a, I wasn't even sure if it really
needed a channel because there were some really good Bolt TV content creators, Eric
Way of the News Coolum channel out on the west coast, was doing a great job from
California.
But I started to realise that charging wasn't, as we all know now, charging
wasn't particularly great in the winter, the cold of the north east.
as bad as maybe Canada or all the kind of Minnesota type winters but it still
affects charging and I didn't see any videos out there any content on that so I
started to kind of just film the sessions figure out what I was doing and thought
well maybe that needs to be shared with other Northeast bolt owners and it kind of
grew from that nucleus but yeah charging infrastructure has been a big one since
day one obviously it's you know night and day difference now but certainly still has
a ways to go in terms of reliability and coverage in
areas but yeah just really starting to try and get that information out there from
day one as a bolt TV owner to figure out how we use these cars and what we need to
do to make the infrastructure better.
Yeah, that's great.
I know the bolts are pretty popular.
I'm just curious.
I haven't heard as many people are driving them in the cold.
And so have there been any challenges that you've had around just making sure that
the thermals and kind of road tripping or do you see a pretty big hit when doing a
road trip?
Yeah, you
in the warmer months as it drops down in New England.
And I'm in greater Boston, so it's not exactly frigid, but it is below freezing
often enough.
And then you're getting charging rates that are maybe in half, and the mileage
gets down to that 180, 170 miles.
So it's just about really knowing what your long trips can then start to drag a
little bit, because you've got the hit of range, you've got the hit of slower
charging, and that starts to get into a little bit of drag.
many rip road trips I think you want to take in the winter right so maybe
Thanksgiving down to Grandma's house Christmas that kind of thing but January
February March we didn't typically do a lot of road trips so really only those two
months of kind of the holidays were the real kind of killers
Yeah, and so I appreciate you sharing that with me from when talking about being an
EV educator.
And for those who are listening, I'm sure that's something a lot of people who would
want to know more or kind of see some of the stuff that you're doing.
And as I mentioned, you have your YouTube video, but can you share some other kind
of examples of things that you do and offer to kind of help others learn more
about electric vehicles?
Yeah, so I've got a long background in content marketing, so I've kind of always
appreciated that using information to share services.
So a lot of folks who are new to the EV business world are also very good
educators or could be very good educators.
So the goal is really to take what those folks do, whether it's myself or other
companies, and just figure out how they can translate that into information that
connects with the consumers, the people who are using
who have a little, not very much experience in the EV side and figuring out
how to best communicate and package that content to educate their potential buyers.
Could be the YouTube side of things, videos, whether it's X, LinkedIn, there's
a bunch of platforms, but really it's about figuring out what the potential
information provider can give to folks and then packaging it in a way that they can
find it and consume it in the right kind of length and something
That's right for them.
Yeah, so I'm kind of curious since you've been doing this now for a while What are
some of the are there any trends that you've seen about like a lot of people
used to ask about this or have these?
Misperceptions and that started to change is that something you're saying?
It's almost reverted.
It's strange.
It's, you know, the first wave of folks were very obviously early adopters and a
lot of people did their homework, you know, way more than the dealers and people
they may go to seek help from.
So they, that first group of people, yourself, myself, and a bunch of others
kind of went in knowing what we needed to know, and probably a lot more that we
didn't.
But then the next wave has kind of, it's starting to hit the, not the mainstream
exactly, but we're on that kind of tipping point, right?
And you've got now a little pushback against DVs, so you're seeing some of the
same kind of conversations you had for people who were enthusiastic about
electric vehicles, but maybe had some questions about, as you said, range in
winter, how they perform on long trips, that kind of thing, and where to charge
them, of course.
That's coming back, and part of it is because of the kind of media, it's
coverage that is not always negative, but there's certainly a kind of hint of, will
these work?
Will they destroy the grid?
run out of juice on the side of the road and none of that really happens to the
everyday you know early adopter certainly and the infrastructure is getting so much
better that really those kind of range concerns aren't that much of a real-world
problem but
The media perception is one that you have to constantly morph and explain why some
things are valid.
People need to know what range they'll get, what kind of charging speeds, how
many times they're going to stop.
But realistically you're not going to run out on the side of the road unless you're
in a very unplanned road trip in the middle of the Great Plains maybe.
Yeah, and it definitely does seem like obviously there's the narrative and a
little bit of the clicks that drives from that.
But it does seem like there's almost a lag in the perception because in some ways,
like especially around the charging stuff, a couple of years ago, yeah, it was pretty
bad.
And even like 18 months ago, it was pretty bad.
And now it's definitely gotten a lot better, a lot smoother.
And it's just interesting that now within the last six months, you're starting to
see these stories.
So it just seems like it was kind of lagging some of the perceptions and the
facts of what was actually happening.
And my apologies.
My dog is in the room and I think he's just leaving.
So if you hear the noises, that's what it is.
But talking about that, kind of looking at that, what do you think are some of the
areas that when you have these conversations, what are some of the things
that when you talk with the person that they're like, oh,
I never thought about that and that kind of then reframes the conversation and
starts to kind of get them excited or much more optimistic and start to see like, oh
yeah, going to an EV really isn't a change and actually it's a benefit for me.
I think the biggest thing is the gap between when they'll need to refuel and
how, because the biggest focus is always on road trips, especially in North
America, you have big dis-fast distances to cover, those trips that people make
once or twice a year become the first thing they think about, so you have a
range of 250-300 miles, although there are
EVs that do much more than that now, but that's kind of the typical spot at the
moment.
People think, well my family's house is 400 miles away so I don't know the first
thing about how to get there.
So that's fine and that's a trip to plan for.
Certainly it's good that they're thinking about that.
But what they don't think about perhaps is the other 50 weeks of the year when
they're not making those trips.
And you know, a lot of people can charge in their driveway or at home.
You know, obviously there's different use case scenarios for different residential
areas, but two thirds of the country.
consider an EV at the moment can charge at home and get that benefit of, you know,
one-time installation of a home charger.
It's not generally that expensive.
Sometimes you can do it off the existing connections, depending on your home
situation and how old the home is.
But really, the, you know, how much benefit they're going to get from that to
wait like my car's ready to go now.
It's a 90% sitting there, you know.
just ready to leave the house because I charged last night.
So you're cutting out that weekly gas errand, and most people don't think about
that because it's just part of their lives now.
They just stop for that five, 10 minutes.
But sometimes it's a dedicated errand.
Sometimes you wake up for the school run and you haven't, you know, a person who
had it the previous day didn't fill it up.
And that's something you're cutting out of your weekly day-to-day life, which is, you
know, most of the time, most of the year, rather than this one trip that kind of
people fixate on that they will have to figure out charging.
Yeah, it's funny you mention that because I find like when I talk to people about
that kind of road trip misperception, I think it's Uh, I think the logic and the
concern behind it is understandable But it's kind of funny.
I now admittedly i'm kind of One of the few people that does do road trips and
actually fairly frequently but multiple times i've done About 1200 miles in a day
in an eevee and i've done it in a gas car, too
And when people hear that, they're like, oh, so it is even possible.
But then I've just also found right or wrong.
I started like asking people and kind of pushing them on it like the last time
they've gone on a road trip.
And for most people, it's not even like once a year.
It has either been multiple years or they're like, well, I guess I never really
have.
I usually fly.
And yeah.
right, of how much would you drive?
A lot of people do like to drive and that's great, but if you'd like to drive
you'll probably like the EV side because you get to have those nice stops every
200, 300 miles depending on your range.
But if it gets to that kind of, as you were talking about, you know, if you're
getting to four digits of driving, that's multiple days trips, you know, and at that
point the time concern really goes out of the window because the flying parts of it,
unless you really have a lot of stuff to move.
Right.
and it goes out the window.
So I never dismiss the long trip concern, but it definitely takes up most of the
oxygen in the room when the local day-to-day driving and how much driving
you actually do doesn't seem to register with people, you know.
No, I totally agree.
I just think it's been interesting when I've started really talking to people.
It just seems like more and more I've pushed people on that and they're like,
yeah, I guess I really don't do those anymore.
And I think that just is something they kind of keep hearing.
And it and once again, I don't want to say people don't do that.
I know plenty of people who do, but it's just shocking to me.
Even over like the last five or six years, when I've started like really talking to
people about that more than I like.
Yeah, I guess I've maybe only ever driven four to five hundred miles in a day.
Yeah, I think that's all.
into the rare thing where I yell, I'll do a thousand.
It's a long day, but even with an EV, it does add time.
But if you're smart about it, it's really not as big of a difference.
And like you said, it's kind of nice actually, every hour and a half to two
hours, just to kind of get out for like 10, 15 minutes, walk around, stretch, and
kind of a good mental reboot.
on a road trip.
I mean, there are natural limitations just to the human, but whether it's the car or
keep going, but the human has to stop, stretch, eat, all the rest of it.
Exactly and I would definitely run into those.
And I think that's where you just have to be smart about it and try to figure out
where you want to make those stops or if you decide you need to stop sooner.
That's kind of where it's important to have not only just working charging
infrastructure but like a car with a really reliable nav system where you can
say, okay, yep, this works.
Hopping out.
Exactly.
Previously we would make these road trips around the Charger, you know, wouldn't
really gloss over that.
It was, we had to stop where the Charger was.
So that, I quite often go from New York to Ohio and that's a fairly well covered
route.
Now we see that changing every time we go across.
Now you could stop at these brand new throughway plazas that have four, six,
eight Chargers.
And you know, there's Tesla ones as well, pretty close.
There's been a regular non-Tesla.
connectors as well.
So you've got the options there now but that wasn't the case, you know, even as
you said, you know, 18 months maybe two or three years ago certainly.
There was much more organization around where the charges were than now when you
can start to get off the, you know, most of these service platters, at least along
the routes that I travel.
Yeah, I think there's quite a few trips I've done kind of through the Midwest, and
that is where you might get a little bit more challenging, but like you're saying,
it's becoming more common to find these things.
The actual infrastructure itself has been more reliable for me at least.
And then the documentation, even if it's not the car, just even the amount of apps
now that are pretty effective for planning and finding these stops is made it a lot
easier.
Yeah, for sure.
And it's kind of that's what's going to keep changing.
The big focus in the middle of the country is really building out those travel
corridors with the funding that's going through at the moment.
So if you look at the amount of changes every week, but it was about last time I
checked, 56%, 57% of that funding has gone to gas stations and truck stops, because
that's where those, when you think about what's off and exit at most of these
places on travel routes, that's what's there.
So a lot of these loves Flying J, Travel Senses of America,
quite a lot of funding to put these things in so that people really don't have to
think about it that much anymore.
Yeah, and I think that is an area that's kind of especially I've noticed with a lot
of the public traditional public fast chargers really struggled with putting in
some of these fast chargers were always sometimes actually fairly far off the
road, especially if you're looking at highway or interstate.
You really have to do a detour.
And it's really kind of good to see whether some of that's the traditional
fast chargers.
But it does seem like more just the actual traditional gas stations.
And.
large companies like the pilots and the flying J's of the world, they're actually
making the investments themselves.
And so I think once again, just the more visibility people see of electric vehicle
chargers, the more they realize it's a actual possibility and the less of a
change it is to what they are now.
Because I think having to drive like 10 minutes off the highway to go find and
park in a Walmart definitely isn't the most ideal experience for a lot of people.
And there being now enough EVs on the road and interest around in general that
competition is forming and really pushing the traditional, I guess, fueling
stations.
and those others in the space to really either have to get their heck together or
just actually figure out a way to stay competitive.
But I guess that kind of brings up one of the things I know you wanted to talk about
a little bit today was just around NEVI funding.
So I'd really love to kind of get your thoughts on it.
We've definitely had a few guests on the past that have shared kind of updates
around it, but I would really love to hear what you've been seeing and what you want
to discuss with us today, Steve.
Yeah, so it's kind of interesting the Northeast has received.
the most nevysites in the world, at least the ones that are energized.
It's still in the single digits, but we have a few in New York that have received
some funding.
The first Tesla federally funded Tesla site went live last week, I think, in
Maine, which is a visit I have to plan at some point as the weather improves.
But so a lot of the, I think the first in the nation was Ohio, then we went to
Pennsylvania, there's one out in Hawaii.
So you're starting to see a little spread.
Obviously these are very different locations.
here.
maybe the up in Maine.
But, you know, the biggest piece is, I think, that these are starting to make...
other networks, maybe outside of Tesla and Electrify America, which were kind of the
first two to cross the country and make a strategic nationwide network for all of
their limitations perhaps in Electrify America.
The one thing they did do is build out a very large nationwide network across two
or three routes fairly quickly.
And what you're trying to see the NEVI funding doing initially is filling in
those gaps and say, for every 50 miles of interstate along these alternative fuel
corridors that have been designated in each state.
so that they have exactly what we've just talked about, is locations within a mile
of the interstate exit and somewhere that even if one is busy, you can roll onto the
next one and know that you're gonna be good to fill up your EV.
So I think it's interesting that has kind of driven a lot of these states and you
see the gaps in preparation now because states like New York and Ohio, which had a
previous plan, they were already working on this at the state level, whether it was
through power authorities or departments of transport, they've started to say,
got this map, existing map, that we wanted to fill.
Now we've got federal funds coming in to help us and they can start to drop the
pins in places that they really need to fill in those gaps.
Other states are just scrambling and on the back foot to be like, I don't know
where to put these things, we've never been through the process of sighting, you
know, looking at a map, figuring out where the power is, trying to contact the right
site hosts, all of this stuff that goes into the long, long...
process of getting a charger in the ground, which I don't think people
appreciate can be 18 to 24 months is quite reasonable for that from an initial
conception to actually energizing a site.
So there's a lot of work that goes into it and I think the states that are leading
that, you can see that they've had some kind of planning ahead of time.
But the end result is going to be the country, if the states get their plans in
place, covered with at least four chargers of 150 kilowatts or more and having that
capability.
ability to just roll off the site, roll off the end state, keep going once you've
done your whatever you do on a rest stop.
Yeah, I think it's great to finally see some of those funds turn from just kind of
projects and announcements to actually things people can go and use and kind of
hope to see that accelerate further.
I know some of the states have kind of been slow to adopt it and some of that
also has just been due to all sorts of changes along the way.
Not just obviously part of that is announcements by automakers kind of moving
towards the North American charging standard.
But it also just seemed like there was a lot of questions even around how to.
define and read and what some of these requirements actually stood for.
I know a big one was the variance in voltage.
And now we're trying to, we're finally seeing a lot of this alignment happen.
And now that these projects are on the ground, I'm hoping that for those states
who have kind of been laggards or just kind of waiting to have them, the more
clarity that now that they're seeing that the funds are being made, this isn't being
kind of on hold, it'll be kind of what gets the momentum for these other states
to get their projects online as well.
Yeah, there's quite a few.
I know Wyoming is one and there's a couple other states where more charging
infrastructure on the interstate would be awesome.
They have been lagging a little bit with that implementation.
Yeah, there's certainly some of those states that really could have benefited
from it.
It's not, you know, it seems to be a political divide thing sometimes, but
you've certainly got, you know, your Ohio's and Texas seem to be trying to
forge ahead.
And about half the states, pretty close to half of the states now have, you know,
announced some kind of funding and they've, usually when they announce the
first round of awards, that means sites, you know, they actually identify where the
sites are going to be.
So that is pretty, you know, then you're just into the construction phase, which
is, you know, depending on the location.
It could be 50, 60 days or on the upper end, closer to three months.
But it's fairly quick turnaround.
That's why you'll start to see a bunch of these rolling in.
The initial chikrin has been that it's been two years or two plus years since the
legislation was announced and they really, how does it take this long?
Well, probably three quarters of that was just the plans, getting the plans in
place.
So you see the early States starting to move.
And as you said, I think there's going to be a little bit of neighborly rivalry of
my next door neighbor.
once CVs hit that kind of tipping point at the mainstream, people will be saying, you
know, why is that state so good, you know, well covered and why can't I drive, you
know, down the road to my local kind of family in West Virginia or Wyoming or any
of these places that have kind of left things a little bit late.
Yeah, it's also been really interesting looking at, you talk about some of the
delays, and I think for the Nevi funds and some of the IRA funds, a large part of
that was the actual kind of definition of getting that clarity around what these
will be.
But I think one of the common things I hear from people who are a little confused
as to like announcements around charging and.
even when it's not, and it's why it takes so long, is just the implementation and
what needs to be done from the utility side.
I think even the other day, Tesla's kind of been famous for that they've now been
building their charging sites almost essentially pre-fab, and then they just
almost just drop ship them and it's ready to go, and they just said they set a new
record with doing that in four days.
And so I think a lot of people see that four day, like, oh my God, this is great.
This is gonna make it so these can be done all the time.
I might be able to go one place, and then next week
the actual site live and is that possible?
Sure, but I think the biggest challenge that's been facing getting more in the
ground outside of even that funding, that's in some ways it slowed a couple
things down but now we're kind of just seeing that more cohesive building of it
has really been around the permitting and getting the work from the utility and
trying to get that.
moving faster because that alone to itself can sometimes mean a site takes up to a
year to get approved or getting the new transformers, other site improvements that
need to be done actually by the utility before the charge point provider even
shows up and puts something in the ground.
So I'm curious if there's any thoughts you have around that or if you've as an EV
educator worked with any utilities to kind of help them highlight ways that they
could be doing
seeing if there's ways they can kind of speed up that.
Yeah, I haven't worked with anyone specifically on the process itself, but
certainly the communicating out where they're going and how these sites are
going in is a big piece of it.
So I was down in the New York International Auto Show last week with the
New York Power Authority, sorry, week before now, with the New York Power
Authority.
And that was really insightful to hear what their challenges have been, because
they've been through it, as I say.
They were doing this two or three years before the NEDD funding was really there
because
this stuff out and we're literally the day after the eclipse here.
And a lot of those sites that they had the foresight to put in that weren't along
these major east-west routes which is typically commonly what you've seen in
other states, they've built out into these more remote areas like the Adirondacks
which go up to the New York and Canada border down in the southern tier of the
state which is kind of mid-state I guess.
So a lot of these places that people want to access in an EV in a relatively high
adoption state,
those authorities knowing that they needed to put that in was a big piece of it.
Then you obviously have to communicate out where these things are, how people can use
it.
So the piece of the auto show was a very large booth, you know, by the EV test
track, fittingly.
So they could hear, you know, EVs, they could go and have a really, you know,
exciting test drive, get all the kind of bums in seats parts of the EV adoption
piece kind of checked off, and then come over to this booth and see right on a
practical level
how do I charge the thing?
Yeah, I know it's fun.
Yeah, I know I like the vehicle.
But to your point, where is the infrastructure?
Is it looking good near my house?
Is it looking good 200 miles from my house?
So for New York State specifically, stuff like the Chargeway Beacon that they use,
which is an app that you can have on your phone, but it's like a very big kind of
kiosk version of that app.
So people can literally stand by the map and then move around with an
in their state and beyond, plan road trips, that kind of thing.
So getting those kind of marketing assets out there is really, really valuable
because that's much more of an interactive piece, right?
So someone can tell you the vehicle has 300 miles and that's great, but then when
you look at a road trip planner and see, right, this is what that road trip of 500,
600 miles looks like, that's quite a big educational piece of getting people
confident that they can make this work for them.
Yeah, definitely.
And that's great to hear that Chargeway had one of their beacons there.
We've actually had Matt on the show before a couple of times and definitely big fans
of what they're doing, trying to help around that education, make the charging a
lot simpler for people.
I'm curious, being at the Yacht-O-Show, were there any things that you, I guess
one, were there any EVs or other new cars that you saw that you liked?
I'm curious if there was any other...
just kind of interesting trends you were seeing in general since you had both
combustion, electric vehicles, I guess also hybrids there as well.
Yeah, hybridization is a big piece for some of them.
Obviously Toyota will always lead that kind of side of things.
And they always have a massive, massive booth.
A lot of these things was Electrify Expo in New York a couple of years ago.
They had pretty large showing.
But just in general, I kind of go dip in and out of auto shows.
But I'm certainly seeing a lot more EVs on the floor.
I think it was somewhere between 40 and 50 electric vehicles that were on show.
they would have been maybe five to ten.
The big reveals were actually
you know, for most of the brands seem to be either plug-in hybrids or, you know, a
new version of something that they had previously produced, which was combustion.
So maybe the big reveals weren't electric this year, but we had Polestar 4 was
unveiled there and they, or at least they showed the North American version, the
pricing.
So Polestar CEO Thomas Inglath was, you know, there on site to kind of push EVs.
And obviously Polestar as an EV only brand is going to, you know, take a lot of
attention for electric vehicles.
Kia EV9 won a couple of awards, not just the World Electric Car of the Year, but
also the World Car of the Year.
Hyundai IONIQ 5N won the performance car of the year, which I don't know, put a few
noses out of joint I think for people who want to hear a roar of an engine when
they're performance vehicles.
But just generally every automaker, even GM, which in the past has disappointed me
because they kind of, you know, they had a lot of all GM promises, but only really
the next gen vehicles weren't really on display, weren't delivered.
We had the Silverado EV, Blazer EV, Equinox EV.
So I start to get to a point where I can't remember all the models.
That's a good sign that the automakers are doing a good job.
Good job.
And then with that, I mean, there are obviously a lot of people there.
I'm kind of just curious what, the big thing has always been Tom bad.
And I have found it effective, just getting to know butts in seats and people
driving cars.
I'm just curious if there were any other things that you've seen that's really
effective to get people kind of over that initial hump or kind of confusion around
EV and just what you found as far as maybe just the tone and.
thoughts from people at auto.
I just feel like auto shows, they've been struggling honestly for a long time and
especially since COVID.
And so I'm just kind of curious if you saw a lot of just normal people going there to
check out cars in general or was it more of a press announcements with a personal
connection, a part to it.
I'm just kind of curious to learn a bit more about the tone and anything that
stood out to you.
because I went on the media day, so I really only saw the people.
They were doing their unveils, you know, so it was much more of a kind of big
splash trying to make headlines, that kind of thing.
So you got some of the flavor.
But most of these people are inside baseball.
They know, you know, they're either pro-EV, maybe not so much for EV, but
whatever they were, they knew their stuff.
Day to day, I think, I mean you're right on auto shows in general, I think there's
a lot less buzz around them than there used to be.
There still were some decent announcements, but you know, it's not what
it was in terms of this is where everything will happen.
I think you're seeing, like for example, you know, Tesla wasn't there, so
immediately that's, you know, more than half of the EV market in the United States
not covered.
Although I think they did then a couple of days later, they must have known that
there was a crowd in town because they were in town with a cyber truck dragging
around a Tesla Model Y in a
case around Manhattan so there's definitely some activity around that.
Rivianne actually down in their showroom down there in the meatpacking district had
the R2 on display.
I don't know if the R3 was there.
I didn't get a chance to go down but so you I think you're seeing around when
there are these big events and they know people are in town they will
put events around it, but then not the new automakers, the new EV only automakers,
other than Polestar, were trying to find other ways to do these big reveals rather
than the traditional auto show.
And as far as people go, I think, it's still a nice family event.
I think if you can go out and spend an hour or two looking at the cool cars,
that's great.
But I think for pure EV adoption, you're probably looking at more of these, like
the month we're in right now is Drive Electric Earth Month, right?
Stuff like that, the kind of grassroots level, people being able to go to these
events
have an actual test drive, because even the test drives weren't really, there were
ride-alongs at the auto show rather than actual test drives.
So stuff like Electrify Expo, which is in a bunch of different cities this year,
those have actual test drives and slightly bigger tracks.
And if you go to these events that are, you know, just EV owners taking their
vehicles because they're early adopters and they kind of, you know, want to show
them off, you get a lot more of these kind of real world stories, I think, so
they'll, and they'll tell you, you know, most EV owners aren't shy about saying,
this journey was a nightmare, this was perfect.
These are the ones that, this is where it's gonna have a problem.
Pretty much, yeah.
And I think that's kind of that EV educator piece again, right?
It's not really, this isn't a particularly old industry if you take it as the modern
kind of mile marker, starting with the Nissan Leaf and then the Tesla Model S.
And for five years, we really didn't have that much activity.
I didn't come into it until that bolt kind of 2016, 2017 point, so it's not.
very long in the toothless industry.
There's a lot of stuff to learn still, and it's all changing every month.
There's something new happening in charging, in the models, in the technology
most months.
So you really just have to stay on top of it and then pass that knowledge on to
people who are coming into it just from a complete blank slate, I think.
Yeah, I think that's some great points about just it seems to be most effective
when it is more of a grassroots thing than by current owners.
I do want to take one step back though, because you mentioned something that kind
of was interesting around like how Tesla and Rivian more of the I mean, I don't
think you really call Tesla startup anymore, but they've always had definitely
count at least a startup mentality in their business approach.
And so I was just curious when you see.
I think it kind of goes back to what I was asking earlier about just like the current
state of honor shows and it's very interesting to see that in Rivian doing
their own things, taking advantage of some of the buzz of being in town and people
there, but also just kind of like, yeah, we're going to do our own thing instead of
having to pay for it.
Is that, I'm just kind of curious of your thoughts of that strategy because
obviously we're talking about it.
It is creating buzz.
And I had seen some headlines, I had been kind of busy, so I hadn't really fully
appreciated that those were all both around the time of the New York Auto Show.
I'm just kind of curious on your thoughts if those are the ways that maybe more
traditional auto companies need to start thinking more to really be positioning
EVs, to kind of stand out and do things that are a bit different to get that
interest.
I think so.
I mean, it's, you know, from a broader marketing perspective, you know, you
either put your marketing kind of efforts into somebody else's hands with an auto
show to an extent.
I mean, obviously you have the design and the creative, but you're also putting
yourself into a very loud environment.
So yes, you can probably come out and maybe that's part of the awards.
You know, I mean, I don't know how many, how much people really put stock in these
awards, but they certainly, you know, all the band.
Manufacturers will make big noise about these things, but it's only one piece of
maybe four five six other automakers with big announcements So you're competing for
that attention and there's only so much writing and so many articles that people
can put out, right?
So Rivian having a presence in New York for that was smart, but then they did the
big reveal for the R2 and the R3 I think it was probably three or four weeks before
and that
Yeah.
bubble, we hear all of this stuff anyway, it's never gonna pass us by, but they
certainly, you know, for the size of the company and how much presence they, you
know, don't have a massive presence in the US just yet, but that took a lot of
attention, you know, it's the R2 being in a relatively affordable, you know, family
SUV and not being launched at one of the biggest auto shows in the country at the
time of its launch, you know, is notable.
And I think they get to define that then, they get to own that experience,
It's true.
in Laguna Beach, they're trying to push this kind of adventure or kind of
outdoorsy family adventure brand vibe.
And you can still do that.
Super is a good kind of contrast because they have that and they'd always have a
really good booth.
It's an experience and they define that.
But they're only a piece of the wider show in that, whereas Rivian completely owned
the launch of that.
And I think you go back and see an automaker, traditional automaker doing
The ID Buzz is a good example, right?
They did the kind of Surfside California thing to kind of launch the ID Buzz.
you know, give it that brand value for the surfing kind of beach side atmosphere.
And you wouldn't get that as an auto show, or if you did, it would be very kind of
fake and artificial.
So I think that real world define it, choose your timing, you know, do it on
your terms is going to be valuable for, and then EV is a chance to do that.
You know, it's a chance to reinvent how you do the vehicle, certainly, but also
how you market, how you sell to people.
So I think it's an interesting way to kind of change things up and maybe
things that worked in the past but are kind of going by the wayside now.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think it's interesting when you using the example of Rivian, just looking
at the I think it's interesting everything you just said, but specifically when you
reference Subaru, because I think so much of the buzz in the comment section after
the
Rivian announces like, oh, this is going to kill Tesla or this is all this is going
to sell millions and millions of copies, which who knows?
It might it looks like actually a pretty awesome car.
I know a couple of people who already put down reservations for him.
But I think in practice, once you actually get into reality and out of the comment
section online, I think what you said about server is really interesting and
pretty accurate.
As someone who's owned a couple of servers and know plenty of people that still do
like.
I know some people who went to Tesla, but in a lot of ways it's a different kind of
psychographic if you wanna look at it as for like the buyer and stuff.
And there really hasn't been as great of a focus or niche for that kind of lifestyle
or building those products, especially in that price point.
And so, while I think a lot of media narrative and the comment section is
always talking about, oh, this is gonna.
It's either Rivian versus Tesla, which I don't think it is at all.
To me it's more like if you're a legacy automaker, especially like a Subaru who
has had a niche, but overall is actually pretty small volume in the US, but it's
one of their larger markets still as an automaker.
That's really the concern is to see a brand like Rivian that's getting those
people that have been kind of your tried and true so excited about EVs and so
excited about a new product that really is focused on them that.
I it's just been interesting to see that with the other.
You can kind of say that with Tesla when they first got into the space around the
traditional premium European automakers.
And now they've even kind of come down a little bit.
Well, I would still say it's a premium car in a lot of ways.
Their price point and what they offer kind of makes them competitive with like a
Honda and Toyota and their volumes and as well.
And so it's.
I'm curious if there's anything that you've been seeing that the way that the
new EV startups or startup mentality has been pushing automakers and why you don't
think that there has been more concern or outward expression by like the legacy
automakers, especially if you're the CEO of Subaru, what are you doing after the R2
was just announced?
long term, a pretty serious long term risk to them as a company.
Yeah, it's interesting, you know, long term versus short term, right?
Because I think, you know, you're still going to sell a lot more.
Toyota's than you are Rivian's or Subaru's even than you are Rivian's but that brand
loyalty only goes so far I think you do see it translate a little bit That's why
stuff like the VZ4X from Toyota and the Subaru Salterra will sell even though
they're not particularly great EV from a nerd kind of point of view don't charge
fast don't really do anything that special There's a brand loyalty that will extend a
little bit, but you're right long term I mean these are you know Rivian is a brand
that is forging it It's really well done
everything they put together is well crafted as an outdoors package.
So it's not just the R2 that they launch, it's a tent.
Whether it comes to fruition or not is another thing because everybody wanted
their camp kitchen for the R1-2 but that doesn't seem to be coming.
But they still have accessories, they are kind of geared to putting together an
ecosystem.
So I think the other side of it that is maybe pushing traditional automakers is
software.
and leading with that kind of piece of, you know, the car will do a lot of the
work for you or the infotainment and the software regularly updating itself, having
a vehicle in the driveway that is not going old by the model year, you know,
it's getting updated as you go.
I think you see a little bit of that with Ford.
They've probably been the most prominent US automaker at least that has kind of
started to drop a lot of updates.
You know, there's a lot of power-ups that come through and they've led obviously
with the...
transition to an ACS with the adapter.
Part of that is software as well.
There's a lot going on behind the scenes.
People couldn't get that vehicle charging on, you know, Tesla superchargers, even if
they had the adapter without that software update.
So you have to have that system in place.
So it's not trivial, you know, Tesla has been building this for years and has just
led with it as a software first kind of company.
Rivian is taking that to a similar kind of level for the outdoor stuff and tweaking
your vehicle for, you know, being able to adjust ride height,
for towing all these kinds of things that maybe manual before, you're starting to
see them come as not just software that comes with the vehicle, but software
updates over the air.
And I think that's challenging a lot of the traditional automakers, certainly
iDrive and IONIQ 5, and it's not.
It's night and day difference.
I do get over the air updates, which was a step up on my Bolt TV, but they are once
every half a year, I think, and usually it's something like the icons change and I
get a new map interface or something,
other manufacturers or EV startups or EV first companies are dropping these things
with all kinds of new features and things that actually affect your ownership
experience.
Yeah, I think especially around the conversation with like long-term and when
you look at like kind of brand loyalty that the software Is I think been kind of
the biggest Achilles heel and maybe not fully appreciated I think a lot of people
even still kind of like oh, yeah, that was cool We
put a lot of money into it, but it's just turned out to be such a big hassle and Ken
has now dismissed it.
But like your time out with Rivian, especially, like I think that is a huge
component while there is a lot of their marketing and the hardware and the camp
kitchen and all these sorts of things that they've kind of tried to put a focus on to
even reinforce that alignment.
I think
the people who actually buy the cars and then that day-to-day experience and become
those kind of grassroots and other people like pushing it, the software makes a huge
difference in that experience for them to kind of feel like they are having a fine
tailored experience unlike what they would have gone from driving a Subaru or
something.
And don't
I think it's just really interesting to me that software is a big component, I think,
of that long-term brand loyalty.
And I know that me personally, that's been a big thing for me, and especially when
you are going, as we started on, like long road trips, like if you're gonna, it
almost seemed like for a while that you had Tesla.
I think Porsche had a little bit, but unfortunately it's not like they're a very
accessible EV, but those are two cars that had pretty good route planning and that is
once again such a big part of the EV experience and that is driven by software.
And so I'm curious to see how, and Rivian obviously is now kind of gone up and
they're sending a lot of these updates very frequently.
And I do think that when you look at the long-term strategy for these
EV focused companies that is probably going to be the big one of the big three
things that makes them the companies that will be taking so much market share long
term from the traditional companies is that software that leads to a much more
engaging and kind of personalized experience.
I'm curious if there's any other things that you've seen that have really impacted
the brand loyalty for EVs or things that have kind of made.
you either loyal to your both or now kind of more loyal to the Ionic as just like as
far as these kinds of special things that stand out for you.
No, I think actually it's almost the opposite.
It's done a kind of reset on brand loyalty for a lot of, at least early adopters, I
don't know how their early mainstream will kind of position themselves, but I think
the reason I chose the IONIQ was purely the new platform, the 800 volt platform
and the charging.
So it's been, you know, we've gone from 40, 50 minute stops to 20 minute stops.
for our charging needs.
So, you know, it gives a little more flexibility on travel, but I don't think
other than being quite impressed with that EV technology, that I'm a Hyundai or Kia
or any other kind of loyal customer.
And that wasn't the case.
I've kind of loved the Bolt actually.
It was a really good car that I'd happily have again as a kind of second EV.
But again, GM has made some missteps.
And in terms of the software kind of thing that we're talking about, Hyundai hasn't
really pulled up any trees in delivering, you know.
regular updates and kind of system that's probably the weaker parts of the car.
I don't think any of them have really, including the new, the new manufacturers,
you know, there's Tesla has its following, of course, you know, that's, that's a huge
kind of driver in the industry.
But even them, I think you're seeing how do they crack this mainstream?
You know, there's a whole pool of people out there who are brand new to electric
vehicles, and there are some kind of segments that will stay with a Subaru,
that will stay with Toyota because they know it and they have that brand value.
But I think it's splintering and fracturing to a point where you say, well,
yeah, Toyota can build an excellent, reliable combustion car or a hybrid car.
But I don't think I think everybody has a track record to create now with
electrification.
And I think you're seeing brands like Hyundai and Kia.
trying to kind of reinvent themselves.
Like their design side has gone completely, you know, in the opposite
direction.
And a lot of really taking advantage of the form factor of EV is being able to
stretch out that wheelbase, make more space inside the car, you know, take away
the tunnel.
There's a bunch of different things that are kind of going into this transition and
it's an opportunity for a lot of automakers to start to really move.
I think what you're seeing though is, you know, some
Some automakers, traditional automakers, fumbled the ball a little bit.
Nissan being a good example, you know, we've talked about them starting the
movement with the Leaf and then just kind of going off on a weird side track, kind
of failing to deliver their Nissan area at a time when it would have been pretty good
EV and then launching it at a time when it's basically, you know, one of many,
many crossover SUVs in the market.
GM, another good one, you know, came to market pretty before, you know, Tesla
really with the Model 3.
They had the Bolt TV doing that 250, 300 miles, you know, before Tesla had that
Model 3.
But again, just kind of the switch to Altium has been really kind of...
Fumbled a little bit, you know the software side seems to have been a problem
They haven't managed to ramp up production as quickly as they wanted So then
discontinuing the bolt as a you know, the most affordable EV on the market You just
see these kind of semi
the missteps that, you know, they could have built both of these manufacturers,
General Moses and Nissan, very different, but they could have built quite a loyal
base of EV followers and adoption, and then build from there to prove that
they've got the kind of chops to become an EV only, or at least an EV primary
manufacturer.
But I think it's just a big opportunity for everybody.
You know, there's a lot of, a long way to go.
Nobody has really convinced everybody, except for Tesla, that they can make and
market EVs, you know, that are compelling.
consistently.
So it's kind of early days, even though it seems like we've been here for a long
time.
It's a lot of road ahead of
Thank you for joining us today and a big thank you to Steve for sharing his
experience and thoughts on the EV industry with all of us today.
I really appreciate everything that people have been doing to send feedback as well
as share recommendations for guests on the show.
I also hope that it wasn't too obvious that I recorded this episode at 5 a .m.
my time, but some of these things that we've had to do kind of on the fly with
the new job, but hoping to kind of get to more of a...
rhythm that should make it a lot easier and kind of get back to where we were
previous to the little hiatus there.
Once again remember this evening I will be on and this evening being Wednesday April
10th I will be on Steve's podcast as well talking about EV road tripping at 5 p .m.
Pacific.
Once again thank you and until next time this is the Grid Connections podcast
signing off.