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[MUSIC]

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All right. With me today is Ed Ge.

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Ed is a space entrepreneur who builds AI

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space computers that

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are radiation hardened

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and recently launched his

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first satellite to space in August.

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I met Ed back in 2020 when we were both

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students early in the startup journey

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and competing against each other at a

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pitch competition for some money.

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At the time, Ed was working on his first

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startup, Stradodyne, which was launching

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high altitude balloons to collect aerial

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imagery for farmers to be more efficient,

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but then pivoted into launching

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surveillance balloons in

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conflict zones for government

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agencies before eventually selling the

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company. It has been crazy

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following Ed's journey these

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last four years since we met. It's an

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absolute pleasure having you

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on as one of the first guests

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of the new podcast. One of the most

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unique things about Ed's

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journey is that, Ed, you went

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straight from university to building

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advanced hard tech and launching

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satellites with none of that

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traditionally thought to be required work

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experience. How did you manage to do it?

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You wake up and you start

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doing shit. I'm not kidding, right?

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There's a quote out there that says you

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can just do things and you really can.

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If you go into this when work experience

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is great, the way I see it

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is this. When you go into

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space tech, when you go into these deep

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tech industries from space

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techs or you go into them

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from these labs or academia, you get this

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tutorial that lets you

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figure out how things are

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done in the industry, figure out how the

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way things should be done

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in a relatively low-stakes,

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low-risk environment. It's not saying you

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have to go through that

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tutorial. You can just skip it

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and jump straight to the end game. It's

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really recommended that

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you go through that tutorial.

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I was a bit too stupid to go through that

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tutorial. I decided to

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start doing things and

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I just jumped straight to the end. When

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people tend to be

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founders, they tend to go after the

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low-hanging fruit for the first couple of

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starts. People tend to go up

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to be sass, event planning,

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consumer social, something that resonates

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with them, something with

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customers that they understand,

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something that they already have

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experience with. I decided I

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want to send shit into space

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and that's what I did. To be honest, that

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meant I had to deal with

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way more pains in the ass than

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I would have had I gone the software

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route. That also meant had it not been

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for a few lucky breaks

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along the way. I would have been fucked.

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I'm not kidding. When you go

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into these really high-stakes,

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highly technical industries where you are

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an outsider and everyone

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knows each other and it's

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very capital intense. You can't bootstrap

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your way in or even

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bootstrap an MVP. You're competing

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against a ton of 30-year-old engineers or

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40-year-old engineers who've

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been VPs of engineering like

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SpaceX, who have staff engineer

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experience from NASA. It really is super

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difficult to break into

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that field. Honest to God, it's not

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something I would recommend. When I look

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back on it, I'm like,

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there was so much shit that could have

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gone wrong. I am amazed at

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this point. I even managed to get

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this far. Why wouldn't you recommend it?

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Well, first of all, it's capital intense.

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You are not going to build a space

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company without venture financing or

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prior exit. That's off the

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table. We're talking millions of dollars

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just to get you an MVP.

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Second of all, the sales cycles

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are super, super long. We're talking

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months between even the customer agreeing

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to buy your stuff and

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months before they pay you. It's not like

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B2B SaaS where the customer

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is like, "All right, we want to

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use your shit and they just pay you

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within a week." That's if you have a

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completed MVP and that takes

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millions of dollars in the first place.

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The other big issue that I

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see is that a lot of hard tech,

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a lot of deep tech industries tend to be

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in this dead zone where it's

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too capital intensive to be

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venture backable, but you also can't

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really build it without

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venture backing. It's kind of like a

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lose-lose situation. That's a big reason

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why American manufacturing

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has fallen so far behind.

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There's a big reason why hard tech and

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deep tech startups are

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really difficult to get financing

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for. It's a big reason why everyone keeps

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going after the same B2B

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SaaS companies or the same

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Web3 or crypto companies or FinTech

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companies and so on because VCs

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understand it. They understand

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the ROI. They understand how the

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timelines, they understand the returns.

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In space, it's kind of

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hard to justify that, "Hey, it's hard to

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guarantee to someone that has no

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experience in it saying,

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"Hey, we're going to be a venture

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scalable outcome. We're going

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to be able to hit that 100-bit

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bucks in ARR within the next five years."

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When you talk about it,

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when we went out to fundraise,

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even with traction, VCs are always like,

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"Well, we love you

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guys. Business makes sense,

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but we have zero understanding of the

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broader market." We pass.

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That's a message that we got

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over and over and over. When you talk to

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my friends who are also

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building in hard tech,

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building in space, building in defense,

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that's a message that

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they're getting over and over and

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over and over too. It's not just from the

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VC side. From what we've

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seen, defense tech VCs,

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deep tech VCs are super capital

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constrained as well. They don't really

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have... You don't really

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see these big multi-stages. Up until

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recently, these big

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multi-stages didn't really lean into

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defense, didn't really lean into hard

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tech or deep tech. That's also because

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it's hard when you talk

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to LPs, and they're like, "Well, raise

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the software fund." That's easy because

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LPs understand software.

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LPs use software. Everyone uses software.

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We've seen software like

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eat the world and become

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trillion dollar, power trillion dollar

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economies. Space and

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deep tech and defense,

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well, that's much more difficult to

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justify raising a fund on.

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When you're outside of that

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narrow mandate, it's really hard to get

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VC to justify to their LPs

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that they can lead around

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like 20 millions of dollars of funding

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into you. It's hard to raise for. The

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second issue is that

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the feedback timelines are very long. The

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iteration timelines are very long.

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Imagine you're building software. A lot

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of founders build

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software. You can, let's say,

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push an iteration of the software out

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today. If something breaks

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or something doesn't work,

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you can fix the ditch, fix a bug, and

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push out a new iteration like tomorrow.

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Nothing is wrong with that. In space,

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well, you push out an

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iteration today. Something's broken.

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It's going to be like six months and

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hundreds of thousands of dollars or

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millions even before

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you can push out the next iteration.

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Everything has to be done right because

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the iteration cycles

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are so slow and because resource

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constraints of every single cycle of

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iteration are so high.

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This means everything has to be checked,

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double checked, and triple

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checked over and over and

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over again before you even push anything

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into production or you

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send something to orbit.

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The other, go ahead. I was just going to

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say build fast and break

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things is a little different.

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The stakes are a little different in your

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space, but what's the other thing?

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Well, you can build fast and break

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things. That's what

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SpaceX did, right? SpaceX,

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look at the Falcon 1, the first launch of

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the vehicle. That

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thing flew, what was it,

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like a dozen times and it was only

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successful twice. On its

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first launch attempt, Elon Musk

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was out of money. If that launch had

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failed, SpaceX would have

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gone bankrupt and we never

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would have gotten what we had today. It

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succeeded at the most

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critical time for SpaceX. Now we have

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SpaceX as a Falcon 9, as a Starship, as a

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Falcon Heavy. It's sending people into

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space on a recurring,

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regular basis. But it's the early days

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that are super hard. In the early days,

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even a small failure can

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kill an entire company.

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You recommend people not to

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do it, not to start there?

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I recommend, I'll say this, if you want

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to be a founder for the

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sake of being a founder,

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go into software. If you are debating

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between two fields, either

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FinTech or SpaceTech, go with

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FinTech. Only go into SpaceTech if you

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are 100% confident that

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there is no other field,

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no other market that you would rather be

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building in. Because

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otherwise, you will hate your life.

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I would be honest, Space, in terms of ROI

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of effort to financial ROI,

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space is by far one of the

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worst industries to be in. You look at

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the amount of effort needed to build a

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satellite company like

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planet or black sky or maxar. And then

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you look at the performance

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on the public markets. It is

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bad. You look at the amount of effort

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needed to build a manned

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space plane like Virgin

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Lactic. And you look at its performance

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on its back. That means

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being delisted at the moment.

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There are very few space stocks that have

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done well on the public

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markets. And that is something

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I don't really see that changing over at

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least over the next five

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years. And honestly, if you

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00:10:39,250 --> 00:10:40,708
look at the amount of dilution that space

280
00:10:40,708 --> 00:10:41,791
companies take, if you ever

281
00:10:41,791 --> 00:10:43,166
have a gone pitch book and look

282
00:10:43,208 --> 00:10:44,791
at that, you look at the amount of

283
00:10:44,791 --> 00:10:46,125
capital that is raised for

284
00:10:46,125 --> 00:10:47,583
every single mission attempt or

285
00:10:47,583 --> 00:10:49,791
every single launch, it is absolutely

286
00:10:49,791 --> 00:10:53,583
enormous. So space as of now

287
00:10:53,583 --> 00:10:54,875
is reserved for visionaries,

288
00:10:54,875 --> 00:10:57,458
but perhaps one day could become a more

289
00:10:57,458 --> 00:10:59,333
profitable endeavor. As

290
00:10:59,333 --> 00:11:00,625
space companies build the

291
00:11:00,625 --> 00:11:02,333
infrastructure for the next generation of

292
00:11:02,333 --> 00:11:04,041
entrepreneurs, what do you think of that?

293
00:11:05,166 --> 00:11:08,250
I think any company that's building in

294
00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:09,333
space today is making a

295
00:11:09,333 --> 00:11:10,083
bet that the space industry

296
00:11:10,166 --> 00:11:13,708
is going to be huge. Because I'm going to

297
00:11:13,708 --> 00:11:14,500
be honest, the space

298
00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,666
market, as it is today,

299
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,291
I don't really think it can support a

300
00:11:17,291 --> 00:11:18,333
venture scalable outcome.

301
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,625
I do believe that the space

302
00:11:20,625 --> 00:11:22,500
market continues on its same trajectory

303
00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:24,166
of growth. It can support

304
00:11:24,166 --> 00:11:25,708
these venture scalable outcomes.

305
00:11:25,708 --> 00:11:27,250
And that the space economy can eat the

306
00:11:27,250 --> 00:11:28,416
world in the same way that

307
00:11:28,416 --> 00:11:30,250
the software economy did.

308
00:11:30,791 --> 00:11:33,791
But I think that we are essentially

309
00:11:33,791 --> 00:11:36,041
making a bet that we aren't too early.

310
00:11:36,458 --> 00:11:37,166
Because if you look at

311
00:11:37,208 --> 00:11:38,708
the space startups that came out in like

312
00:11:38,708 --> 00:11:40,375
the 2010s and the 2000s,

313
00:11:40,375 --> 00:11:42,208
they came too early. And all of

314
00:11:42,208 --> 00:11:45,250
them either got acquired or died. And

315
00:11:45,250 --> 00:11:46,958
once it did survive, went out,

316
00:11:46,958 --> 00:11:48,500
it's like spacked, right? And

317
00:11:48,625 --> 00:11:50,583
all of the spacks just got the absolute

318
00:11:50,583 --> 00:11:52,291
shit kicked out of them once

319
00:11:52,291 --> 00:11:53,500
they hit the public markets.

320
00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:58,000
Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. So they're getting

321
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,583
their butt kicked. Why do you think VCs

322
00:12:00,625 --> 00:12:03,875
invest in space startups if they can't

323
00:12:03,875 --> 00:12:04,791
get that venture outcome?

324
00:12:04,791 --> 00:12:08,041
I think VCs invest in space startups

325
00:12:08,041 --> 00:12:09,250
because they're betting on

326
00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:10,208
the space market game bid.

327
00:12:10,625 --> 00:12:13,083
We ultimately are betting that, hey, as

328
00:12:13,083 --> 00:12:14,958
launch prices come down,

329
00:12:15,416 --> 00:12:17,041
the number of satellites going

330
00:12:17,041 --> 00:12:19,500
up to space goes up. And you see it,

331
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,000
right? Because last year

332
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,208
we launched, what was it,

333
00:12:23,208 --> 00:12:26,291
like 2,600 satellites. In 2014, we only

334
00:12:26,291 --> 00:12:29,333
launched 248 satellites. And

335
00:12:29,333 --> 00:12:31,083
this launch rate is only going

336
00:12:31,125 --> 00:12:34,041
up and launch prices are coming down,

337
00:12:34,708 --> 00:12:36,166
particularly with new potential

338
00:12:36,166 --> 00:12:37,833
competitors to Falcon 9,

339
00:12:38,083 --> 00:12:41,333
like New Glenn and Neutron, as well as

340
00:12:41,333 --> 00:12:42,291
new competitors in

341
00:12:42,291 --> 00:12:43,750
reusable rocket launch options

342
00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:46,708
from China and other nations around the

343
00:12:46,708 --> 00:12:48,500
world. And I think this is

344
00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:49,541
a trend that's only going to

345
00:12:49,541 --> 00:12:51,291
increase that new more and more reality

346
00:12:51,291 --> 00:12:53,041
will go up. And I also do

347
00:12:53,041 --> 00:12:55,291
believe that as humanity becomes

348
00:12:55,291 --> 00:12:57,041
more reliant on space-based

349
00:12:57,041 --> 00:12:58,541
infrastructure, like for example,

350
00:12:58,833 --> 00:13:00,458
Starlink, it's going to become far

351
00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,916
more apparent that space is going to

352
00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:04,583
become a very, very big

353
00:13:04,583 --> 00:13:06,916
economy and that we cannot live

354
00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:09,958
without the space economy today. But this

355
00:13:09,958 --> 00:13:11,000
is only going to become more

356
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:11,916
and more apparent. That's a

357
00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:14,583
year's go on. What do you think is going

358
00:13:14,583 --> 00:13:16,208
to be the next leap in

359
00:13:16,208 --> 00:13:17,333
space infrastructure?

360
00:13:19,208 --> 00:13:21,666
Well, Starlink already is that next leap.

361
00:13:21,916 --> 00:13:23,916
We look at how many

362
00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:25,750
people use Starlink nowadays.

363
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,583
Right. Of course, do you use Starlink? I

364
00:13:29,583 --> 00:13:31,208
do not. All right. Well,

365
00:13:31,208 --> 00:13:32,291
do you know anyone that uses

366
00:13:32,291 --> 00:13:36,291
Starlink? I do. Yeah. And they all got in

367
00:13:36,291 --> 00:13:37,416
like the past year or so,

368
00:13:37,416 --> 00:13:39,500
right? Yeah. Yeah. Like,

369
00:13:39,666 --> 00:13:43,041
it's my point, right? Like Starlink, when

370
00:13:43,041 --> 00:13:44,416
it first came out, like not that many

371
00:13:44,416 --> 00:13:44,958
people started using

372
00:13:44,958 --> 00:13:46,583
it. People started using it more and more

373
00:13:46,583 --> 00:13:48,875
and people were like,

374
00:13:48,875 --> 00:13:49,833
"Wow, this is like way better

375
00:13:49,833 --> 00:13:52,083
than fucking AT&T." Or like some shit.

376
00:13:52,083 --> 00:13:54,208
Yeah. Like I don't like AT&T. I don't

377
00:13:54,208 --> 00:13:55,791
like these big telecom

378
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,375
companies that have Monopoly. So

379
00:13:57,375 --> 00:13:59,500
everyone's slowly moving on to Starlink.

380
00:13:59,833 --> 00:14:01,500
Like United, right? United

381
00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:03,500
Airlines, they're buying starting

382
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:05,541
terminals. They aren't using like

383
00:14:05,541 --> 00:14:07,375
T-Mobile. They aren't using AT&T

384
00:14:07,375 --> 00:14:10,791
or Sprint or like these other traditional

385
00:14:10,791 --> 00:14:12,500
telecoms. So moving on to the

386
00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:14,958
new player in space. And as we

387
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,791
move forward, I think that really is

388
00:14:16,791 --> 00:14:17,916
going to be a trend we see.

389
00:14:17,916 --> 00:14:19,791
Like SpaceX and these big space

390
00:14:19,791 --> 00:14:21,083
companies, they're going to start

391
00:14:21,083 --> 00:14:23,333
vertically integrating and

392
00:14:23,333 --> 00:14:25,333
start like trying to go after

393
00:14:25,333 --> 00:14:27,750
the end customer themselves. Right. So in

394
00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:28,833
the past, you look at

395
00:14:28,833 --> 00:14:31,166
SpaceX, they would like make

396
00:14:31,166 --> 00:14:33,291
money from telecom indirectly by like

397
00:14:33,291 --> 00:14:35,166
launching a satellite for a telecom

398
00:14:35,166 --> 00:14:36,875
customer, be it like AT&T,

399
00:14:37,208 --> 00:14:40,666
T-Mobile or Iridium. But now SpaceX is

400
00:14:40,666 --> 00:14:42,166
like, "Well, why not just go

401
00:14:42,166 --> 00:14:43,750
directly to that end customer

402
00:14:44,333 --> 00:14:47,250
and then sell telecom services, internet

403
00:14:47,250 --> 00:14:48,166
services to that end

404
00:14:48,166 --> 00:14:50,291
customer?" And I think this is going

405
00:14:50,291 --> 00:14:52,333
to be more of a trend going up in the

406
00:14:52,333 --> 00:14:53,250
space industry as

407
00:14:53,250 --> 00:14:55,458
company, because I feel like any

408
00:14:55,458 --> 00:14:57,625
successful company is at the end of the

409
00:14:57,625 --> 00:14:59,000
day, a consumer company,

410
00:14:59,208 --> 00:15:00,208
right? They're selling their

411
00:15:00,208 --> 00:15:01,291
dream. They're selling their vision.

412
00:15:01,291 --> 00:15:02,291
They're selling to the

413
00:15:02,291 --> 00:15:05,041
consumer. And by selling starting

414
00:15:05,041 --> 00:15:07,000
terminals, SpaceX is effectively turning

415
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,833
themselves into the consumer electronics

416
00:15:08,833 --> 00:15:10,541
company. And as these

417
00:15:10,541 --> 00:15:12,000
space companies go directly to our

418
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,083
vertical integrating, they

419
00:15:13,083 --> 00:15:15,916
also directly become consumer

420
00:15:15,916 --> 00:15:18,083
company or start selling to these earth

421
00:15:18,083 --> 00:15:19,250
space customers that

422
00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:20,791
previously it wouldn't be able to

423
00:15:20,791 --> 00:15:24,833
access. Yeah, just a few days ago, I saw

424
00:15:24,833 --> 00:15:27,458
that Cutler Airlines, they

425
00:15:27,458 --> 00:15:29,416
initially got it in their

426
00:15:29,416 --> 00:15:32,708
planes. And I think Elon had a call with

427
00:15:32,708 --> 00:15:34,833
some folks while they were in flight,

428
00:15:34,833 --> 00:15:35,750
which I think is pretty

429
00:15:35,791 --> 00:15:38,625
incredible. Starlink really has been a

430
00:15:38,625 --> 00:15:39,458
leap, but what do you think

431
00:15:39,458 --> 00:15:41,083
the next leap is going to be?

432
00:15:41,083 --> 00:15:43,333
We can't yet see. Starlink feels like the

433
00:15:43,333 --> 00:15:44,416
obvious current leap,

434
00:15:45,416 --> 00:15:47,333
after payload cost reduction,

435
00:15:47,333 --> 00:15:49,583
perhaps as the previous link. What do you

436
00:15:49,583 --> 00:15:51,166
think is the next one just

437
00:15:51,166 --> 00:15:53,333
over the horizon that most

438
00:15:53,333 --> 00:15:55,333
of us laymen, most of us normal people

439
00:15:55,333 --> 00:15:56,333
who aren't in the industry

440
00:15:56,333 --> 00:15:59,541
can't yet see? So look at two

441
00:15:59,541 --> 00:16:02,000
trends. One trend is defaulting launch

442
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000
prices. And the second trend is

443
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,291
increasing reliance of

444
00:16:05,791 --> 00:16:08,708
the terrestrial economy on space based

445
00:16:08,708 --> 00:16:10,125
infrastructure. And

446
00:16:10,125 --> 00:16:11,208
that's like more and more.

447
00:16:12,666 --> 00:16:14,291
Then if you look at that, then the

448
00:16:14,291 --> 00:16:15,875
logical confusion is going

449
00:16:15,875 --> 00:16:17,041
to be the next leap is going

450
00:16:17,041 --> 00:16:19,583
to be an on orbit surfacing, right? Space

451
00:16:19,583 --> 00:16:22,083
tugs, fuel, fuel, vehicles,

452
00:16:22,291 --> 00:16:24,875
for orbital transfer vehicles that can

453
00:16:24,875 --> 00:16:26,541
move stuff between the moon

454
00:16:26,541 --> 00:16:27,916
and earth and like geosynchronous

455
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,208
orbit, low orbit, and so on. And we

456
00:16:31,208 --> 00:16:32,625
already are starting to see massive

457
00:16:32,625 --> 00:16:33,625
movements in that direction.

458
00:16:33,833 --> 00:16:37,625
For example, the Space Force has awarded

459
00:16:37,625 --> 00:16:38,916
recently like several large

460
00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:40,458
contracts to starfish space

461
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:43,041
for like the orbital tug, as well as like

462
00:16:43,041 --> 00:16:44,000
end of life services

463
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:44,875
and solid maintenance.

464
00:16:45,583 --> 00:16:48,791
And we've also seen more movement in this

465
00:16:48,791 --> 00:16:49,958
space, for example, from

466
00:16:49,958 --> 00:16:51,333
companies that truly nominate

467
00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:54,750
or orbit fab doing in orbit refueling.

468
00:16:55,583 --> 00:16:56,583
And this makes sense,

469
00:16:56,583 --> 00:16:57,583
right? Because the more we,

470
00:16:57,583 --> 00:17:01,041
as launch prices go down, the cost of

471
00:17:01,041 --> 00:17:01,916
deploying in orbit

472
00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:05,125
infrastructure also goes down. And the

473
00:17:05,125 --> 00:17:07,000
more in orbit infrastructure goes up, but

474
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:07,958
as more in orbit

475
00:17:07,958 --> 00:17:09,750
infrastructure goes up, this leads to

476
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:11,625
massive demand for maintaining that

477
00:17:11,625 --> 00:17:13,166
infrastructure, making sure it can be

478
00:17:13,166 --> 00:17:14,500
deorbited at the end of its

479
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:16,041
lifetime, making sure it can be pushed

480
00:17:16,041 --> 00:17:18,833
around this destination to maintain or

481
00:17:18,833 --> 00:17:19,916
fixed if anything goes

482
00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:23,791
wrong. And as this orbital infrastructure

483
00:17:23,791 --> 00:17:25,000
expands, you kind of

484
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,250
create a flywheel effect as it

485
00:17:27,291 --> 00:17:28,750
creates a demand for like satellite

486
00:17:28,750 --> 00:17:31,125
maintenance, tugs, fuel depots, and so

487
00:17:31,125 --> 00:17:32,750
on. And as these go up,

488
00:17:32,750 --> 00:17:34,000
then you can support more in orbit

489
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,250
infrastructure, even more cheap, extended

490
00:17:36,250 --> 00:17:37,583
lifetimes, which leads

491
00:17:37,583 --> 00:17:39,500
to even more orbital infrastructure going

492
00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:40,166
up from like these

493
00:17:40,166 --> 00:17:43,125
companies. And which leads to even

494
00:17:43,125 --> 00:17:44,708
greater demand for satellite maintenance.

495
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,291
And I really do think that

496
00:17:46,291 --> 00:17:47,833
this is going to be the next

497
00:17:48,166 --> 00:17:51,500
big thing in the space industry. But

498
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,666
that's all like hinged on increased

499
00:17:53,666 --> 00:17:54,708
terrestrial reliance on

500
00:17:54,791 --> 00:17:57,416
space infrastructure, correct? That is

501
00:17:57,416 --> 00:17:59,958
correct. So ultimately, if you look at

502
00:17:59,958 --> 00:18:01,458
it, we are making a bet

503
00:18:01,458 --> 00:18:05,958
on the bet here. Got it. What increases

504
00:18:05,958 --> 00:18:07,291
in that space

505
00:18:07,291 --> 00:18:09,291
infrastructure you see on the terrestrial

506
00:18:09,458 --> 00:18:13,333
side over the horizon, Starlink is an

507
00:18:13,333 --> 00:18:15,125
obvious one, connectivity.

508
00:18:15,958 --> 00:18:19,333
What you do at A-Thro is also

509
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:22,666
like clearly some additional value for

510
00:18:22,666 --> 00:18:25,083
us. What other kinds of

511
00:18:25,083 --> 00:18:26,750
domains do you think might open

512
00:18:26,791 --> 00:18:29,250
or like we need on earth things in space?

513
00:18:30,833 --> 00:18:31,500
That's a good

514
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:33,791
question. So I really do think

515
00:18:33,791 --> 00:18:36,125
remotes... So there's going to be two big

516
00:18:36,125 --> 00:18:38,000
markets, three actually,

517
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,208
that really rely on space-based

518
00:18:40,250 --> 00:18:42,291
infrastructure. The first one is going to

519
00:18:42,291 --> 00:18:43,875
be remote sensing, right?

520
00:18:43,875 --> 00:18:45,083
So like using space data

521
00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:47,041
to for everything from wildfire detection

522
00:18:47,041 --> 00:18:48,416
to mapping climate change,

523
00:18:48,416 --> 00:18:49,500
mapping carbon emissions,

524
00:18:50,083 --> 00:18:52,375
as well as ISR use cases like spy

525
00:18:52,375 --> 00:18:53,458
satellites, spotting Chinese

526
00:18:53,458 --> 00:18:57,083
warships in the Taiwan strikes.

527
00:18:57,833 --> 00:18:59,708
The second one, of course, is telecom

528
00:18:59,708 --> 00:19:01,875
with these new 5G

529
00:19:01,875 --> 00:19:03,875
constellations as well as Starlink and

530
00:19:03,875 --> 00:19:05,791
these IoT constellations going up into

531
00:19:05,791 --> 00:19:06,875
space offering space

532
00:19:06,875 --> 00:19:08,750
connectivity between different

533
00:19:08,875 --> 00:19:10,416
assets on the ground, different equipment

534
00:19:10,416 --> 00:19:11,458
or terminals or

535
00:19:11,458 --> 00:19:12,791
antennas and ground stations on

536
00:19:12,791 --> 00:19:15,250
the ground to their orbital shallots to

537
00:19:15,250 --> 00:19:17,416
transport data from two

538
00:19:17,416 --> 00:19:19,083
different points on earth faster

539
00:19:19,291 --> 00:19:22,291
than ever before. And the third one, of

540
00:19:22,291 --> 00:19:24,916
course, is with GPS. So

541
00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:29,541
we've seen new alternative GPS

542
00:19:29,541 --> 00:19:30,958
solutions come out, right? For example,

543
00:19:30,958 --> 00:19:31,916
you have the Zona space

544
00:19:31,916 --> 00:19:33,958
launched like GPS, like into low

545
00:19:33,958 --> 00:19:36,291
earth orbit with the idea that since it

546
00:19:36,291 --> 00:19:37,583
will be much closer to the

547
00:19:37,583 --> 00:19:38,958
earth, much closer to the

548
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,291
customer, you'll be able to get much far

549
00:19:41,291 --> 00:19:43,208
more precise navigation,

550
00:19:43,583 --> 00:19:44,833
far more precise targeting

551
00:19:45,291 --> 00:19:48,291
and direct pathfinding for stuff like

552
00:19:48,291 --> 00:19:49,583
autonomous vehicles or

553
00:19:49,583 --> 00:19:52,083
traveling through remote areas or

554
00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:54,958
offering alternative GPS solutions to the

555
00:19:54,958 --> 00:19:55,833
Department of Defense.

556
00:19:56,916 --> 00:20:00,166
How interesting. And you're in like what

557
00:20:00,166 --> 00:20:01,250
if there was a

558
00:20:01,250 --> 00:20:02,500
building could like directly

559
00:20:03,291 --> 00:20:05,625
plug into almost all those use cases,

560
00:20:05,625 --> 00:20:08,166
right? Well, anything that relies on

561
00:20:08,166 --> 00:20:09,333
doing data in space we

562
00:20:09,333 --> 00:20:12,541
can work with, right? The big thing is so

563
00:20:12,541 --> 00:20:13,583
we've taken a different

564
00:20:13,583 --> 00:20:15,958
my thesis around space data

565
00:20:15,958 --> 00:20:19,208
is this, right? It's the most difficult

566
00:20:19,208 --> 00:20:20,958
thing. It's one of the

567
00:20:20,958 --> 00:20:22,083
most difficult tasks in space

568
00:20:22,083 --> 00:20:24,083
right now is moving data from the space

569
00:20:24,083 --> 00:20:27,416
layer down to the earth later. Ground

570
00:20:27,416 --> 00:20:29,500
stations are limited.

571
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,916
Bandwidth is in short supply. The FCC and

572
00:20:32,916 --> 00:20:35,500
IQ are very strict on when

573
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:36,500
you can access these ground

574
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:38,208
stations, what your allocation is, what

575
00:20:38,208 --> 00:20:40,833
the data rate is. And this makes it

576
00:20:40,833 --> 00:20:42,000
difficult to run and

577
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,625
manage these satellite missions that are

578
00:20:43,625 --> 00:20:46,166
generating massive amounts of data on

579
00:20:46,166 --> 00:20:46,916
board the spacecraft.

580
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:50,000
So the less you have to move data from

581
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,166
the space layer to the earth

582
00:20:51,166 --> 00:20:52,416
layer, the more it can compute

583
00:20:52,416 --> 00:20:54,583
in space and the less you have to stay in

584
00:20:54,583 --> 00:20:55,583
contact with the ground

585
00:20:55,583 --> 00:20:57,583
station, the better it is.

586
00:20:57,666 --> 00:21:01,000
Could there be a paradigm shift in the

587
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,958
foreseeable future that eliminates that

588
00:21:03,958 --> 00:21:07,416
bandwidth constraint between orbit and

589
00:21:07,416 --> 00:21:09,500
the in earth to where

590
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:12,041
space compute is less needed?

591
00:21:13,416 --> 00:21:15,375
So there are alternative solutions and

592
00:21:15,375 --> 00:21:16,291
we've noted three of

593
00:21:16,291 --> 00:21:17,583
them. One of them is optical

594
00:21:17,583 --> 00:21:19,750
downlink. Second one is K-band, higher

595
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:20,916
frequency downlink. And the

596
00:21:20,916 --> 00:21:21,583
third one is the potential

597
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:25,458
proliferation of ground stations. The

598
00:21:25,458 --> 00:21:27,041
first one, optical downlink.

599
00:21:27,041 --> 00:21:28,375
There's one main problem with

600
00:21:28,375 --> 00:21:30,291
it, right? So optical downlink isn't

601
00:21:30,291 --> 00:21:32,333
really doable without

602
00:21:32,333 --> 00:21:33,750
clear weather, without a clear

603
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:35,125
line of sight to the ground. If you have

604
00:21:35,125 --> 00:21:36,333
cloud cover, you're fucked,

605
00:21:36,333 --> 00:21:37,458
you can't really send data

606
00:21:37,458 --> 00:21:39,750
down from the satellite. Or if you aren't

607
00:21:39,750 --> 00:21:41,125
directly on top of the

608
00:21:41,125 --> 00:21:42,166
ground station itself, you can't

609
00:21:42,333 --> 00:21:45,166
move a laser through the atmosphere at an

610
00:21:45,166 --> 00:21:46,541
angle. Rain fade,

611
00:21:46,541 --> 00:21:48,083
atmospheric fading will essentially

612
00:21:48,416 --> 00:21:50,500
jumble the data and you get a very, very

613
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:52,250
poor data rate. The second

614
00:21:52,250 --> 00:21:54,000
one, of course, is K-band,

615
00:21:54,250 --> 00:21:55,666
which experiences much of the same

616
00:21:55,666 --> 00:22:00,541
issues. K-band also suffer from rain

617
00:22:00,541 --> 00:22:02,041
fading, atmospheric effects,

618
00:22:02,875 --> 00:22:05,291
and other things have vastly reduced the

619
00:22:05,291 --> 00:22:06,875
effectiveness of the data rate if you're

620
00:22:06,875 --> 00:22:08,291
transmitting from an angle and also

621
00:22:08,291 --> 00:22:09,458
require a massive amount

622
00:22:09,458 --> 00:22:10,500
of ground stations to be

623
00:22:10,625 --> 00:22:13,750
deployed in the field. So you always will

624
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:15,000
have downlink sites. So

625
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:15,833
to say that, because the,

626
00:22:15,833 --> 00:22:19,375
I don't describe it like the cone, right?

627
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:20,291
Imagine satellite

628
00:22:20,291 --> 00:22:21,458
communications as a cone,

629
00:22:21,833 --> 00:22:24,333
right? You have a cone. And the K-band

630
00:22:24,333 --> 00:22:26,125
and optical band cone, the traditional

631
00:22:26,125 --> 00:22:27,166
satellite bands, S-band

632
00:22:27,166 --> 00:22:29,416
and X-band have a very wide cone because

633
00:22:29,416 --> 00:22:30,416
the satellites can

634
00:22:30,416 --> 00:22:31,583
communicate either from a greater

635
00:22:31,583 --> 00:22:38,416
angle, have steps down site without being

636
00:22:38,416 --> 00:22:39,041
that social ground

637
00:22:39,041 --> 00:22:40,458
station. But the higher frequency

638
00:22:40,458 --> 00:22:41,958
bands, because they suffer so much from

639
00:22:41,958 --> 00:22:43,000
atmospheric interference,

640
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,541
have a much more neural cone,

641
00:22:45,083 --> 00:22:46,666
which limits the line of sight that you

642
00:22:46,666 --> 00:22:48,500
have and increases the need

643
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:50,208
for much more proliferated

644
00:22:50,208 --> 00:22:52,416
ground stations. But this runs into a

645
00:22:52,416 --> 00:22:55,500
separate problem. The FCC and ITU are

646
00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:56,833
very strict on where

647
00:22:56,833 --> 00:22:58,541
you can build, where you can deploy

648
00:22:58,541 --> 00:23:00,416
ground stations, as well as

649
00:23:00,416 --> 00:23:02,125
where, like how data is moved

650
00:23:02,166 --> 00:23:04,166
between earth and space. Because when

651
00:23:04,166 --> 00:23:04,958
data is moved from a

652
00:23:04,958 --> 00:23:06,166
satellite, like down to your ground,

653
00:23:06,166 --> 00:23:07,583
that interferes with mirror time traffic,

654
00:23:07,958 --> 00:23:08,625
that interferes with

655
00:23:08,625 --> 00:23:10,333
airborne traffic, that interferes

656
00:23:10,416 --> 00:23:12,375
with like essentially things as simple as

657
00:23:12,375 --> 00:23:14,083
a radio on a ground, or even like wifi

658
00:23:14,083 --> 00:23:14,958
and stuff like that.

659
00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:19,791
So this means that the most popular

660
00:23:19,791 --> 00:23:20,666
satellite bands for

661
00:23:20,666 --> 00:23:22,791
communication are S-band and X-band.

662
00:23:22,791 --> 00:23:25,541
And put that perspective, there is only

663
00:23:25,541 --> 00:23:27,708
one commercial S and

664
00:23:27,708 --> 00:23:30,166
X-band downlink station in all

665
00:23:30,166 --> 00:23:32,416
of North America. There is none within

666
00:23:32,416 --> 00:23:33,125
the continent of the

667
00:23:33,125 --> 00:23:34,000
United States. There's only

668
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,125
S-band uplink within the United States,

669
00:23:36,375 --> 00:23:37,791
but that, these S-band

670
00:23:37,791 --> 00:23:39,333
uplink licenses have been granted,

671
00:23:39,583 --> 00:23:42,083
were granted decades ago. And the FCC is

672
00:23:42,083 --> 00:23:43,750
not brand new as band uplink licenses.

673
00:23:45,291 --> 00:23:48,291
From what we've seen, handling licensing,

674
00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:50,291
handling real estate for these

675
00:23:50,291 --> 00:23:52,000
complications, for these

676
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,583
new ground stations, is by far a much

677
00:23:54,583 --> 00:23:57,500
more greater obstacle than any

678
00:23:57,500 --> 00:23:59,416
manufacturing or technical

679
00:23:59,750 --> 00:24:01,875
challenge. And this is something that

680
00:24:01,875 --> 00:24:04,250
can't really be overcome with new

681
00:24:04,250 --> 00:24:05,416
technology or something that

682
00:24:05,416 --> 00:24:07,375
can really be overcome in the traditional

683
00:24:07,375 --> 00:24:08,166
sense, because you're

684
00:24:08,166 --> 00:24:09,250
dealing with local governments,

685
00:24:09,291 --> 00:24:11,750
you're dealing with regulations, you're

686
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:13,625
dealing with these agencies. Frankly,

687
00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:16,500
very antiquated and huge pains in the

688
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:18,666
assets to deal with. We dealt with the

689
00:24:18,666 --> 00:24:19,833
ITU, right? We dealt

690
00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:22,541
with the ITU, we dealt with the FCC for

691
00:24:22,541 --> 00:24:24,166
our first satellite. The FCC

692
00:24:24,166 --> 00:24:25,458
at least was understandable.

693
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,958
I hate the ITU. Every space company will

694
00:24:28,958 --> 00:24:30,166
say we hate the ITU,

695
00:24:30,166 --> 00:24:31,458
and for very good reason.

696
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,125
And it's just a pain in the ass to deal

697
00:24:36,125 --> 00:24:36,500
with all these

698
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:38,791
regulations. And not just that,

699
00:24:38,875 --> 00:24:42,875
it's if you look at these new ground

700
00:24:42,875 --> 00:24:45,166
stations, the main challenge

701
00:24:45,166 --> 00:24:47,625
for it, like if you look at

702
00:24:47,625 --> 00:24:49,541
these different optical things, right?

703
00:24:49,875 --> 00:24:52,541
Optical things and K-band, K-band

704
00:24:52,541 --> 00:24:53,416
transmitters and these

705
00:24:53,416 --> 00:24:55,083
high frequency transmitters require far

706
00:24:55,083 --> 00:24:57,125
more power on the satellite. So you

707
00:24:57,125 --> 00:24:58,083
aren't really doable on

708
00:24:58,083 --> 00:24:59,666
small satellite buses and oftentimes

709
00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:01,333
require customers to

710
00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:02,583
change entire configuration,

711
00:25:02,833 --> 00:25:04,708
change entire design of the satellite to

712
00:25:04,708 --> 00:25:05,416
accommodate these

713
00:25:05,416 --> 00:25:06,791
larger, far more powerful

714
00:25:06,875 --> 00:25:09,041
transmitters. Same scheme of laser names.

715
00:25:09,416 --> 00:25:10,375
Laser names require pointing

716
00:25:10,375 --> 00:25:14,166
accuracy of 0.00005 degrees.

717
00:25:14,916 --> 00:25:16,333
But that perspective, the average

718
00:25:16,333 --> 00:25:17,750
satellite in orbit only has a pointing

719
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:19,250
accuracy of 0.1 degrees.

720
00:25:19,833 --> 00:25:21,500
So asking the customer to essentially

721
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,583
change entire configuration of the

722
00:25:23,583 --> 00:25:24,625
satellite to accommodate

723
00:25:24,625 --> 00:25:26,958
either a far more powerful control system

724
00:25:26,958 --> 00:25:28,708
to hit that four order of

725
00:25:28,708 --> 00:25:29,583
magnitude increase in the

726
00:25:29,583 --> 00:25:33,333
pointing accuracy or to fit it with a

727
00:25:33,333 --> 00:25:35,083
much more powerful, much

728
00:25:35,083 --> 00:25:36,416
more larger transmitter.

729
00:25:36,666 --> 00:25:38,416
Oftentimes it's infeasible and customers

730
00:25:38,416 --> 00:25:40,250
don't want to do that when they can.

731
00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:44,291
So this is the problem that you guys step

732
00:25:44,291 --> 00:25:46,541
in to solve. You guys are

733
00:25:46,541 --> 00:25:48,500
doing the computation in

734
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:50,333
space and sending the results back down

735
00:25:50,333 --> 00:25:51,166
to earth fundamentally,

736
00:25:51,416 --> 00:25:52,333
like for my grandmother to

737
00:25:52,333 --> 00:25:54,791
understand if she's watching this, right?

738
00:25:54,791 --> 00:25:56,500
Absolutely. We do the

739
00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:57,416
computation in space.

740
00:25:57,458 --> 00:25:59,000
We can process the data in space,

741
00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:00,416
compress the data, and

742
00:26:00,416 --> 00:26:02,208
then by sending the processing

743
00:26:02,208 --> 00:26:04,125
and processing out of packets, it's much

744
00:26:04,125 --> 00:26:05,958
easier to route it to other

745
00:26:05,958 --> 00:26:07,083
satellites using the software

746
00:26:07,083 --> 00:26:09,541
to find radio or send it down to the

747
00:26:09,541 --> 00:26:10,583
ground without incurring

748
00:26:10,583 --> 00:26:12,000
the same bandwidth cost or

749
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,166
the same latency cost or the same data

750
00:26:14,166 --> 00:26:15,458
storage cost as you would

751
00:26:15,458 --> 00:26:17,500
with just moving massive

752
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:21,166
packets of data around the orbit. With

753
00:26:21,166 --> 00:26:22,791
the Starlink constellation, a

754
00:26:22,791 --> 00:26:23,750
constellation, could you

755
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,000
beam it to a Starlink satellite? I don't

756
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,375
know if that's something that is

757
00:26:27,375 --> 00:26:28,416
supported or exists.

758
00:26:29,083 --> 00:26:31,208
How widespread those things are? Could

759
00:26:31,208 --> 00:26:32,041
that be an alternative

760
00:26:32,041 --> 00:26:33,083
without getting too, too deep

761
00:26:33,083 --> 00:26:35,375
in the technical so that our viewers can

762
00:26:35,375 --> 00:26:37,166
understand? Is that a possibility?

763
00:26:38,166 --> 00:26:40,291
Theoretically, yes. So Starlink is

764
00:26:40,291 --> 00:26:41,666
selling their lasers as part

765
00:26:41,666 --> 00:26:43,166
of the plug and phaser program.

766
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,291
However, there are several issues with

767
00:26:46,291 --> 00:26:47,083
that. Starlink lasers,

768
00:26:47,375 --> 00:26:48,791
very big, very bulky, very

769
00:26:48,833 --> 00:26:50,833
expensive, still deals with the same

770
00:26:50,833 --> 00:26:51,500
issues of pointing

771
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:53,666
accuracy. You need to have that very

772
00:26:53,833 --> 00:26:56,541
high, very precise and fine level of

773
00:26:56,541 --> 00:26:57,791
control to be able to send

774
00:26:57,791 --> 00:26:59,250
data to a Starlink satellite.

775
00:27:00,166 --> 00:27:03,541
Issue number two is it's a closed

776
00:27:03,541 --> 00:27:05,583
ecosystem. If you buy a Starlink laser,

777
00:27:05,583 --> 00:27:06,458
you can only communicate

778
00:27:06,458 --> 00:27:08,125
to other Starlink satellites. You can't

779
00:27:08,125 --> 00:27:09,500
communicate to space for a satellite. You

780
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:10,208
can't communicate to

781
00:27:10,208 --> 00:27:11,416
Kuiper's satellite. You can't communicate

782
00:27:11,416 --> 00:27:13,208
to one web satellite. All

783
00:27:13,208 --> 00:27:14,125
of these optical digital

784
00:27:14,166 --> 00:27:15,583
constellations have their own community

785
00:27:15,583 --> 00:27:16,500
in protocols, their

786
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:17,625
own standards, their own

787
00:27:17,625 --> 00:27:20,500
bandwidths, and so on. The Space Force is

788
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:21,708
pushing to own standards

789
00:27:21,708 --> 00:27:22,875
for in-space communication

790
00:27:22,875 --> 00:27:25,333
between satellites. But obviously, big

791
00:27:25,333 --> 00:27:26,833
in-net megaconservations

792
00:27:26,833 --> 00:27:27,750
don't really give a shit about

793
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:28,833
it. They're just going with their own

794
00:27:28,833 --> 00:27:31,083
standards. This fragmentation of

795
00:27:31,083 --> 00:27:32,541
bandwidths and communication

796
00:27:32,541 --> 00:27:34,541
protocols and standards makes it

797
00:27:34,541 --> 00:27:35,541
difficult to essentially

798
00:27:35,541 --> 00:27:39,083
customers to buy one laser and

799
00:27:39,125 --> 00:27:41,583
communicate with other constellations or

800
00:27:41,583 --> 00:27:44,750
justify essentially

801
00:27:44,750 --> 00:27:46,458
locking the entire communication

802
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:48,500
infrastructure into one company's

803
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:52,041
ecosystem. I can also note that of the

804
00:27:52,041 --> 00:27:53,000
plug-in laser program,

805
00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:56,250
we have only known of one company that

806
00:27:56,250 --> 00:27:57,125
has bought Starlink

807
00:27:57,125 --> 00:27:59,583
lasers. That is VAS. VAS is

808
00:27:59,583 --> 00:28:01,416
building a space station that relies on

809
00:28:01,416 --> 00:28:02,333
the Dragon's life support

810
00:28:02,333 --> 00:28:03,583
system. They already are

811
00:28:03,583 --> 00:28:04,208
in the Space

812
00:28:04,208 --> 00:28:07,541
at Eagle system. Planet Labs is not going

813
00:28:07,541 --> 00:28:08,291
to put Starlink laser

814
00:28:08,291 --> 00:28:09,208
onto their satellites.

815
00:28:09,791 --> 00:28:11,291
Maxar isn't going to put Starlink laser

816
00:28:11,291 --> 00:28:13,000
onto their satellites. Of the

817
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:13,791
customers that we've thought

818
00:28:13,791 --> 00:28:15,666
to, all of our customers, none of them

819
00:28:15,666 --> 00:28:17,583
have any interest in

820
00:28:17,583 --> 00:28:19,291
buying Starlink phasers and

821
00:28:19,375 --> 00:28:20,833
communicating with the rest of the

822
00:28:20,833 --> 00:28:25,750
Starlink. Got it. I think,

823
00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:27,333
Aethro, you guys are the first

824
00:28:27,375 --> 00:28:30,750
company to put AI computing

825
00:28:30,750 --> 00:28:32,000
into space. Is that right?

826
00:28:32,708 --> 00:28:35,208
We are not the first. There are other

827
00:28:35,208 --> 00:28:36,666
companies in the past have

828
00:28:36,666 --> 00:28:38,833
used far less powerful chips,

829
00:28:38,833 --> 00:28:42,458
like the NVIDIA TX2 or TETRK1, and have

830
00:28:42,458 --> 00:28:43,083
deployed them

831
00:28:43,083 --> 00:28:44,541
successfully in orbit. For example,

832
00:28:44,791 --> 00:28:48,916
AI-TEX Venus computer deployed with the

833
00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:50,666
TX2. We also know of

834
00:28:50,666 --> 00:28:52,458
companies like ExoSpace have

835
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:55,458
flown TX2s in space before. However, we

836
00:28:55,458 --> 00:28:56,791
are the first, I

837
00:28:56,791 --> 00:28:58,458
believe, to use an NVIDIA Orin

838
00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:00,916
GPU, which is 20 times more powerful than

839
00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:01,708
preceding computer

840
00:29:01,708 --> 00:29:03,333
generations, as well as,

841
00:29:03,333 --> 00:29:06,458
I believe, the first chip to be based off

842
00:29:06,458 --> 00:29:07,791
the 8-nanometer process

843
00:29:07,791 --> 00:29:08,916
to be deployed in orbit.

844
00:29:09,708 --> 00:29:11,250
What does that mean for our laymen back

845
00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:13,791
home? What does that

846
00:29:13,791 --> 00:29:15,125
allow you to do functionally?

847
00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:18,875
Got it. It enables us to essentially run

848
00:29:18,875 --> 00:29:21,000
multiple computer

849
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,916
processes on board the computer.

850
00:29:23,541 --> 00:29:25,125
It enables us to run multiple AI and

851
00:29:25,125 --> 00:29:25,583
machine learning

852
00:29:25,583 --> 00:29:26,625
processes on board the computer

853
00:29:26,625 --> 00:29:29,375
simultaneously. In the past, you have a

854
00:29:29,375 --> 00:29:31,000
TX2 in orbit. As far as

855
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,041
processing power, it's only

856
00:29:32,041 --> 00:29:34,875
able to do orbital inference using the

857
00:29:34,875 --> 00:29:35,708
computer vision model that

858
00:29:35,708 --> 00:29:37,708
has onboard. With the Orin,

859
00:29:38,125 --> 00:29:40,500
since it's far more upgraded, processing

860
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:41,666
and computational power,

861
00:29:42,041 --> 00:29:42,875
what it means is that you

862
00:29:42,875 --> 00:29:45,791
can create software containers to run

863
00:29:45,791 --> 00:29:46,458
multiple different

864
00:29:46,458 --> 00:29:48,333
processes at once. You can have one

865
00:29:48,333 --> 00:29:49,875
software container on the satellite,

866
00:29:50,083 --> 00:29:52,708
let's say, an imaging

867
00:29:52,708 --> 00:29:55,333
satellite. As the images have

868
00:29:55,333 --> 00:29:56,750
the collection images, you can have one

869
00:29:56,750 --> 00:29:57,541
software container

870
00:29:57,541 --> 00:29:59,875
essentially doing inference on the

871
00:29:59,875 --> 00:30:02,500
images that's collecting. You can have

872
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:05,041
one software container

873
00:30:05,041 --> 00:30:06,791
simultaneously retraining

874
00:30:06,916 --> 00:30:09,500
its onboard computer vision model off of

875
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:10,750
the new images that's

876
00:30:10,750 --> 00:30:12,583
collecting. As it's collecting more

877
00:30:12,583 --> 00:30:14,291
images, a satellite can adapt to change

878
00:30:14,291 --> 00:30:16,875
situations, hone any onboard model that

879
00:30:16,875 --> 00:30:18,083
has, and the fact that

880
00:30:18,083 --> 00:30:20,916
it adapted to changing situations on the

881
00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:22,125
ground. You have a third

882
00:30:22,125 --> 00:30:24,500
one that is compressing all of

883
00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:26,333
the processed results and then

884
00:30:26,333 --> 00:30:28,291
communicating that to another satellite

885
00:30:28,291 --> 00:30:30,625
in orbit or, let's say,

886
00:30:30,666 --> 00:30:32,583
a partner really constellations

887
00:30:32,583 --> 00:30:34,000
potentially like Amazon

888
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,166
Kuiper and so on. This ability to

889
00:30:37,166 --> 00:30:38,875
handle multiple computational tasks

890
00:30:38,875 --> 00:30:41,583
simultaneously really cuts back on the

891
00:30:41,583 --> 00:30:43,166
time that you need to

892
00:30:43,208 --> 00:30:45,333
process and deliver data and get results

893
00:30:45,333 --> 00:30:46,583
from orbit. It also

894
00:30:46,583 --> 00:30:49,166
really makes it possible to

895
00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:52,708
make space missions truly autonomous,

896
00:30:52,708 --> 00:30:54,333
make them truly adaptive in

897
00:30:54,333 --> 00:30:56,125
a way that really hasn't ever

898
00:30:56,166 --> 00:31:00,583
been done before. Okay, so with the

899
00:31:00,583 --> 00:31:03,583
satellite you guys launched, the Deimos

900
00:31:03,583 --> 00:31:04,583
satellite, I believe it

901
00:31:04,583 --> 00:31:08,250
was in August of this year, what's it

902
00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:09,791
doing up there? What's it

903
00:31:09,791 --> 00:31:11,791
up to? Is it watching us?

904
00:31:13,333 --> 00:31:18,875
I wish I could say it. So Deimos is a

905
00:31:18,875 --> 00:31:23,083
prototype satellite. So it has one of our

906
00:31:23,125 --> 00:31:24,833
computers on board, very small computer,

907
00:31:25,083 --> 00:31:28,458
like fits in my hand. Oh nice, you have a

908
00:31:28,458 --> 00:31:31,958
prop there, right? All right. And what's

909
00:31:31,958 --> 00:31:33,416
it doing? Essentially,

910
00:31:33,625 --> 00:31:35,833
it's a very basic test.

911
00:31:37,041 --> 00:31:39,500
The point of Deimos was to prove to our

912
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:40,833
customers that yes, we can

913
00:31:40,833 --> 00:31:43,250
fly hardware in space. Our

914
00:31:43,250 --> 00:31:44,583
computer works in space, you can

915
00:31:44,583 --> 00:31:45,666
communicate with our computer

916
00:31:45,666 --> 00:31:47,500
in space, you can deliver OTA

917
00:31:47,625 --> 00:31:49,500
software updates to the computer when

918
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:50,958
it's in orbit. And not just

919
00:31:50,958 --> 00:31:53,541
that, the computer can run

920
00:31:53,541 --> 00:31:56,708
basic ML inference workloads in space

921
00:31:56,708 --> 00:31:58,708
with minimal effects on

922
00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:01,250
radiation, minimal issues from

923
00:32:01,375 --> 00:32:05,125
like thermal cycling, as well as that it

924
00:32:05,125 --> 00:32:08,000
could run on a very, very

925
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,458
power constrained budget,

926
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,750
on a very small satellite. Because if it

927
00:32:12,750 --> 00:32:14,166
can work on a very tiny

928
00:32:14,166 --> 00:32:16,125
cube, like Deimos, then it can

929
00:32:16,166 --> 00:32:18,250
most definitely work on larger satellite

930
00:32:18,250 --> 00:32:20,083
buses, be it like a

931
00:32:20,083 --> 00:32:22,041
larger micro sat or like an

932
00:32:22,250 --> 00:32:24,375
S-perclass small sat or a space station

933
00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:26,833
and so on. So it really is

934
00:32:26,833 --> 00:32:28,333
just this proof of concept.

935
00:32:28,583 --> 00:32:30,875
Some customers say, hey, we are a

936
00:32:30,875 --> 00:32:31,875
legitimate space company,

937
00:32:31,875 --> 00:32:33,083
we can send stuff into space.

938
00:32:33,375 --> 00:32:36,125
There's a quote out there. Have you ever

939
00:32:36,125 --> 00:32:37,416
heard, no one ever got

940
00:32:37,416 --> 00:32:38,541
fired for buying IBM?

941
00:32:38,875 --> 00:32:40,125
Oh yeah, for hiring deep

942
00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:41,250
blue, right? Or big blue?

943
00:32:41,291 --> 00:32:44,000
For hiring deep blue, yeah, right. And in

944
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,708
space, there is like a

945
00:32:45,708 --> 00:32:47,166
similar adage that goes like,

946
00:32:47,166 --> 00:32:49,083
no one ever got fired for buying a flight

947
00:32:49,083 --> 00:32:51,875
heritage product, right? So no one ever

948
00:32:51,875 --> 00:32:52,791
got fired for buying

949
00:32:52,791 --> 00:32:54,291
the technology, buying a product that's

950
00:32:54,291 --> 00:32:55,416
been proven to work in

951
00:32:55,416 --> 00:32:57,833
space before. Deimos proves

952
00:32:57,833 --> 00:32:59,291
that product can work in space, our

953
00:32:59,291 --> 00:33:00,875
hardware and our software can work in

954
00:33:00,875 --> 00:33:02,458
space. And by doing so,

955
00:33:02,458 --> 00:33:04,416
we eliminate a lot of the barriers that

956
00:33:04,416 --> 00:33:06,583
customers have to buy a product or

957
00:33:06,583 --> 00:33:07,833
working with Aethro,

958
00:33:08,166 --> 00:33:10,208
because they're like wealthy Aethro guys

959
00:33:10,208 --> 00:33:11,833
have proven that they can

960
00:33:11,833 --> 00:33:13,541
send stuff to build products,

961
00:33:13,583 --> 00:33:15,208
send it to that product space and have

962
00:33:15,208 --> 00:33:16,250
the product work. And

963
00:33:16,250 --> 00:33:17,375
when we buy this product,

964
00:33:17,458 --> 00:33:19,875
it's inherently de-risked in our mind.

965
00:33:20,375 --> 00:33:21,625
But if you buy, let's say

966
00:33:21,625 --> 00:33:22,583
a product that hasn't been

967
00:33:22,583 --> 00:33:24,291
proven in space, that hasn't been flown

968
00:33:24,291 --> 00:33:25,250
in space before, that hasn't

969
00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:26,458
been flown on salad before,

970
00:33:26,875 --> 00:33:29,500
you essentially are gambling your entire

971
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:31,916
job on having that

972
00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:33,500
technology work. If that's not really

973
00:33:33,583 --> 00:33:34,916
something that people in the space

974
00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:36,208
industry want to do, you

975
00:33:36,208 --> 00:33:38,458
don't want to be gambling a

976
00:33:38,458 --> 00:33:40,250
multi-million dollar satellite on

977
00:33:40,250 --> 00:33:41,166
something that has

978
00:33:41,166 --> 00:33:42,875
never been flown before.

979
00:33:43,708 --> 00:33:45,708
Understandable. So this was like proof of

980
00:33:45,708 --> 00:33:47,750
confidence to get that flight heritage to

981
00:33:48,541 --> 00:33:50,541
then get like assurance, like to show

982
00:33:50,541 --> 00:33:51,958
your potential customers,

983
00:33:51,958 --> 00:33:53,541
hey, we can do this thing.

984
00:33:54,333 --> 00:33:56,916
Yeah. All right. What's the next item I

985
00:33:56,916 --> 00:33:57,916
can have? What's it going to do?

986
00:33:57,958 --> 00:34:00,666
Yeah. It's going to be a far more

987
00:34:00,666 --> 00:34:03,416
powerful version of Deimos. We're calling

988
00:34:03,416 --> 00:34:05,125
it Phobos. We named it

989
00:34:05,125 --> 00:34:07,000
after the two moons of Mars. It's

990
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,958
actually a much twice as big as Deimos.

991
00:34:10,416 --> 00:34:12,750
And so the name matches

992
00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:15,291
in size as well. So the NetScii Lite,

993
00:34:15,291 --> 00:34:16,666
it's going to be testing out

994
00:34:16,666 --> 00:34:18,416
our ability to perform far more

995
00:34:18,416 --> 00:34:21,750
intense AI workloads in space, as well as

996
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:23,375
in-space training and the

997
00:34:23,375 --> 00:34:24,458
ability for it to potentially

998
00:34:24,625 --> 00:34:27,916
receive packets of data from Deimos and

999
00:34:27,916 --> 00:34:28,500
communicate the

1000
00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:29,625
packets of data to the ground

1001
00:34:30,083 --> 00:34:32,166
to essentially confirm our ability to

1002
00:34:32,166 --> 00:34:33,083
perform in-space best

1003
00:34:33,083 --> 00:34:33,750
that we're getting both

1004
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:34,291
inter-satellite

1005
00:34:34,291 --> 00:34:37,041
communication using our compute modules.

1006
00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:40,083
How interesting. Okay. I did not realize

1007
00:34:40,083 --> 00:34:41,250
you guys, the

1008
00:34:41,250 --> 00:34:42,083
satellites you'd be launching

1009
00:34:42,083 --> 00:34:43,458
would be communicating with each other.

1010
00:34:43,833 --> 00:34:44,666
Well, that's one,

1011
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,125
that's the stretch goal,

1012
00:34:46,125 --> 00:34:48,625
right? The primary goal is to essentially

1013
00:34:48,625 --> 00:34:49,833
approve our ability

1014
00:34:49,833 --> 00:34:50,875
to accomplish way more

1015
00:34:50,875 --> 00:34:53,958
ambitious AI workloads in space using a

1016
00:34:53,958 --> 00:34:54,708
much more powerful

1017
00:34:54,708 --> 00:34:55,833
satellite, a much more powerful

1018
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,000
form factor, and a newly updated board

1019
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,541
revision that takes into

1020
00:35:00,541 --> 00:35:01,916
account the lessons that we

1021
00:35:01,916 --> 00:35:03,416
learned from Deimos and the lessons that

1022
00:35:03,416 --> 00:35:04,250
we learned from shipping

1023
00:35:04,250 --> 00:35:06,000
our computers to our first

1024
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,250
initial couple of customers. And this

1025
00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:10,916
next satellite, this is

1026
00:35:10,916 --> 00:35:12,333
for a customer or also proof

1027
00:35:12,333 --> 00:35:15,083
of concept? Proof of concept is a flying

1028
00:35:15,083 --> 00:35:15,791
customer software

1029
00:35:15,791 --> 00:35:17,666
payload on it. Interesting.

1030
00:35:17,666 --> 00:35:20,625
Well, best of luck. I can't wait to hear

1031
00:35:20,625 --> 00:35:21,708
about it. When do you

1032
00:35:21,708 --> 00:35:22,791
think it's going to launch?

1033
00:35:23,375 --> 00:35:26,916
The target in May. Okay. May, most likely

1034
00:35:26,916 --> 00:35:27,375
it will be pushed

1035
00:35:27,375 --> 00:35:28,541
into June. You never know

1036
00:35:28,541 --> 00:35:30,041
space sets and transport or launches.

1037
00:35:30,333 --> 00:35:32,208
They tend to fall a

1038
00:35:32,208 --> 00:35:33,375
month or two behind schedule.

1039
00:35:35,083 --> 00:35:39,041
Are there any big hurdles or noteworthy

1040
00:35:39,041 --> 00:35:41,375
constraints for computing in space like

1041
00:35:41,875 --> 00:35:46,166
energy or heat dissipation? Yeah, both

1042
00:35:46,166 --> 00:35:47,875
massive. So energy is a

1043
00:35:47,875 --> 00:35:49,666
massive hurdle. If you talk about

1044
00:35:49,666 --> 00:35:51,458
the smaller microsap buses or

1045
00:35:51,458 --> 00:35:52,708
nano-satellite buses on

1046
00:35:52,708 --> 00:35:55,250
these bigger buses, let's say,

1047
00:35:55,666 --> 00:35:58,125
as per class, most energy isn't that big

1048
00:35:58,125 --> 00:35:59,791
of a hurdle. These big as

1049
00:35:59,791 --> 00:36:01,458
per class buses also tend to

1050
00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:03,916
have the ability to dissipate heat from

1051
00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:05,833
like, if a computer is

1052
00:36:05,833 --> 00:36:07,000
going to be this small, right?

1053
00:36:07,416 --> 00:36:08,958
These big satellite buses are going to

1054
00:36:08,958 --> 00:36:10,791
have more than enough capacity to

1055
00:36:10,791 --> 00:36:11,666
dissipate heat away from

1056
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:14,916
them or like power them up if they're

1057
00:36:14,916 --> 00:36:15,791
only running like two or

1058
00:36:15,791 --> 00:36:18,541
three of them. Energy and heat

1059
00:36:18,541 --> 00:36:20,083
dissipation space really comes into issue

1060
00:36:20,083 --> 00:36:20,666
when you're working with

1061
00:36:20,666 --> 00:36:21,541
these small satellite form

1062
00:36:21,541 --> 00:36:23,541
factors or if you're talking about the

1063
00:36:23,541 --> 00:36:25,208
point, like a ton of them on a single

1064
00:36:25,208 --> 00:36:26,041
satellite, let's say,

1065
00:36:26,333 --> 00:36:28,083
a data center or cluster computing

1066
00:36:28,083 --> 00:36:30,833
configuration. For that, there are

1067
00:36:30,833 --> 00:36:32,083
several different ways to

1068
00:36:32,083 --> 00:36:33,291
manage it. For example, we have heat

1069
00:36:33,291 --> 00:36:35,500
sinks on our computer. Like if you look

1070
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:36,708
at the copper piece,

1071
00:36:36,708 --> 00:36:38,916
it's just a massive copper heat sink. We

1072
00:36:38,916 --> 00:36:40,083
have thermal straps,

1073
00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:41,833
which essentially can connect

1074
00:36:41,833 --> 00:36:44,000
to an entire side panel of the satellite

1075
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,541
turned down to a radiator or

1076
00:36:45,541 --> 00:36:47,291
connect to a radiator itself.

1077
00:36:47,708 --> 00:36:49,750
Some shots we see also have thermal

1078
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:51,291
control buses, which is pretty much like

1079
00:36:51,291 --> 00:36:52,500
a skeleton within the

1080
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:53,875
satellite that like dissipates heat

1081
00:36:53,875 --> 00:36:55,416
across the entire satellite bus and

1082
00:36:55,416 --> 00:36:56,708
spreads it out. And we

1083
00:36:56,708 --> 00:37:01,916
also see like more complex ways to pull

1084
00:37:01,916 --> 00:37:02,875
computers that we haven't

1085
00:37:02,875 --> 00:37:04,250
explored yet. For example, we saw

1086
00:37:04,541 --> 00:37:06,916
one concept of cooling the internal

1087
00:37:06,916 --> 00:37:08,833
satellite that used like to

1088
00:37:08,833 --> 00:37:10,416
cycle water back and forth.

1089
00:37:10,875 --> 00:37:13,750
Or like, what's water? It's some type of

1090
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:15,208
fluid. It's just like with

1091
00:37:15,208 --> 00:37:17,500
a back and forth to cool the

1092
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:20,083
satellite. And yes, that works, but it's

1093
00:37:20,083 --> 00:37:21,250
a pain in the ass to do.

1094
00:37:21,583 --> 00:37:23,875
And also vastly increases the

1095
00:37:23,875 --> 00:37:25,250
number of failure points that you would

1096
00:37:25,250 --> 00:37:28,416
have. And in terms of, I

1097
00:37:28,416 --> 00:37:31,375
mean, Ray, you have to understand

1098
00:37:32,833 --> 00:37:35,541
so it's space. Yes, it is cold in space.

1099
00:37:36,750 --> 00:37:37,958
But the problem is when

1100
00:37:37,958 --> 00:37:39,208
you're on the sun facing side,

1101
00:37:39,208 --> 00:37:41,375
it's very hot, hot enough to boil water.

1102
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:43,958
And when it's very cold,

1103
00:37:44,416 --> 00:37:45,500
yes, it is cold, but it's

1104
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:47,333
basically the vacuum. There really isn't

1105
00:37:47,333 --> 00:37:49,291
anything to dissipate that heat away

1106
00:37:49,291 --> 00:37:50,750
beyond just radiation.

1107
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:54,625
So managing thermals is particularly

1108
00:37:54,625 --> 00:37:58,791
difficult. Why space? Why did you get

1109
00:37:58,791 --> 00:37:59,958
into this? Like what

1110
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,041
happened in your life that made you the

1111
00:38:02,041 --> 00:38:03,916
most obsessed person I know about space?

1112
00:38:04,791 --> 00:38:08,916
Dude, I fucking love space. I want to do

1113
00:38:08,916 --> 00:38:09,708
shit that no human has

1114
00:38:09,708 --> 00:38:12,333
done before. I want to do

1115
00:38:12,333 --> 00:38:13,791
shit that no human has done before. I

1116
00:38:13,791 --> 00:38:14,708
want to see shit that no

1117
00:38:14,708 --> 00:38:16,083
human has ever seen before.

1118
00:38:17,041 --> 00:38:19,208
And to be honest, when you talk about

1119
00:38:19,208 --> 00:38:22,041
space, with the building in space, that

1120
00:38:22,041 --> 00:38:23,250
is the industry to be

1121
00:38:23,291 --> 00:38:25,000
in if you want to do these two things.

1122
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:27,500
Like I see the energy

1123
00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:31,500
around. When I was a kid, I always

1124
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:34,125
imagined that if had it been the 1500s or

1125
00:38:34,125 --> 00:38:35,541
the 1400s, I would have

1126
00:38:35,541 --> 00:38:36,500
been on one of the ships

1127
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:38,625
set selling to the new world selling to

1128
00:38:38,625 --> 00:38:39,625
the Americas, because I

1129
00:38:39,625 --> 00:38:41,958
always want to I've always

1130
00:38:41,958 --> 00:38:45,041
wanted to explore new frontiers at sea,

1131
00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:47,833
do things that have haven't been done

1132
00:38:47,833 --> 00:38:50,125
before. Right. And like

1133
00:38:50,541 --> 00:38:53,625
turn the universe in of mysteries into

1134
00:38:53,625 --> 00:38:54,750
something that is known,

1135
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,083
something I know that is tangible,

1136
00:38:57,083 --> 00:39:01,000
something that I can record or study. And

1137
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,000
space really is that final

1138
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,625
frontier where there's still

1139
00:39:04,625 --> 00:39:09,708
so much so much unanswered mysteries

1140
00:39:09,708 --> 00:39:11,083
about the physical universe in

1141
00:39:11,083 --> 00:39:13,791
space. And really, it's going

1142
00:39:13,791 --> 00:39:15,208
to be something that will be exploring

1143
00:39:15,208 --> 00:39:16,583
for the next like millions

1144
00:39:16,583 --> 00:39:18,375
of years potentially. Right.

1145
00:39:18,416 --> 00:39:20,291
Because if you look at the scope, the

1146
00:39:20,291 --> 00:39:21,583
sheer scope of the universe,

1147
00:39:22,250 --> 00:39:23,333
think about all the things that

1148
00:39:23,333 --> 00:39:25,250
could be out there. And you just really,

1149
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:27,208
really are like, well, I want

1150
00:39:27,208 --> 00:39:28,916
to see them all. I want to see

1151
00:39:28,916 --> 00:39:31,416
them all. I want to know them, know about

1152
00:39:31,416 --> 00:39:32,500
all of them. And I want

1153
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:33,583
to study them and see these

1154
00:39:33,583 --> 00:39:36,125
phenomena up close with my with my own

1155
00:39:36,125 --> 00:39:39,166
eyes. And not just that I I'm

1156
00:39:39,166 --> 00:39:41,500
personally of the opinion that

1157
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,750
if humanity, I'm not the opinion of two

1158
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:45,875
things. One is that if

1159
00:39:45,875 --> 00:39:47,333
humanity wants to become

1160
00:39:48,250 --> 00:39:50,958
immortal, space is the only way to go.

1161
00:39:50,958 --> 00:39:53,041
Right. I think that we are

1162
00:39:53,041 --> 00:39:54,458
reaching the introduction point

1163
00:39:54,458 --> 00:39:56,833
in our civilization, where if we don't

1164
00:39:56,833 --> 00:39:57,583
become a space from

1165
00:39:57,583 --> 00:39:59,916
civilization within the next century,

1166
00:40:00,458 --> 00:40:02,708
we never will. We just never will because

1167
00:40:02,708 --> 00:40:03,916
we will no longer have

1168
00:40:03,916 --> 00:40:04,875
the resources, we will no

1169
00:40:04,875 --> 00:40:06,625
longer have the economic might, we will

1170
00:40:06,625 --> 00:40:07,875
no longer have the ability

1171
00:40:07,875 --> 00:40:10,291
to focus our ambitions on off

1172
00:40:10,291 --> 00:40:13,000
the world exploration, we don't do it

1173
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,666
now. So we have to do it.

1174
00:40:14,666 --> 00:40:16,375
There is no option, there is no

1175
00:40:16,416 --> 00:40:18,625
cavalry coming to save us. We have to do

1176
00:40:18,625 --> 00:40:19,666
it now. We have to do it

1177
00:40:19,666 --> 00:40:20,875
today. And we have to push on it

1178
00:40:20,875 --> 00:40:23,541
as much as possible. The second thing is,

1179
00:40:24,208 --> 00:40:26,000
I'm of the opinion of a

1180
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,083
question. Do you if no human

1181
00:40:29,291 --> 00:40:32,125
is alive to study the works of Aristotle,

1182
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:35,166
of Plato, of Confucius and

1183
00:40:35,166 --> 00:40:35,958
the straight philosophers,

1184
00:40:36,166 --> 00:40:38,166
if no human is alive to enjoy these

1185
00:40:38,166 --> 00:40:39,750
massive cultural legacies

1186
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:41,208
that we have accumulated,

1187
00:40:41,541 --> 00:40:43,333
and the stories that we've left behind,

1188
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,791
will any of humanity's works

1189
00:40:46,791 --> 00:40:48,666
or any of humanity's culture

1190
00:40:48,666 --> 00:40:53,416
ever have mattered? That's a

1191
00:40:53,416 --> 00:40:55,166
philosophical question. Even if we're

1192
00:40:55,166 --> 00:40:56,708
immortal, still doesn't matter.

1193
00:40:57,791 --> 00:40:59,375
What does it mean to have meaning and

1194
00:40:59,375 --> 00:41:02,125
matter? This is quite a can

1195
00:41:02,125 --> 00:41:03,083
of worms you opened here, Ed.

1196
00:41:04,083 --> 00:41:08,875
I mean, I'm with you. I want us to

1197
00:41:08,875 --> 00:41:11,208
diversify our investment, like just not

1198
00:41:11,208 --> 00:41:12,541
just have like a single

1199
00:41:12,541 --> 00:41:15,208
planet and that tremendously increases

1200
00:41:15,208 --> 00:41:18,500
our odds of immortality, but at the same

1201
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:19,333
time, like everything

1202
00:41:19,666 --> 00:41:22,000
in the scope of infinity must end, right?

1203
00:41:23,208 --> 00:41:26,458
Well, theoretically, yes. But

1204
00:41:26,458 --> 00:41:28,291
theoretically, I also am,

1205
00:41:28,333 --> 00:41:32,000
I don't like these odds. And I think

1206
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,166
like, sometimes you just

1207
00:41:33,166 --> 00:41:34,416
know the odds, you're like,

1208
00:41:34,416 --> 00:41:35,875
fuck it, let's do it, right? Like, like,

1209
00:41:35,875 --> 00:41:38,208
if you're a, you're a founder, so you

1210
00:41:38,208 --> 00:41:39,333
sympathize with this,

1211
00:41:39,333 --> 00:41:40,750
right? We're both founders, we empathize

1212
00:41:40,750 --> 00:41:41,958
with it. And I'm like, yeah,

1213
00:41:41,958 --> 00:41:43,250
we know the odds of success,

1214
00:41:43,250 --> 00:41:44,500
but we don't give a shit, we're just

1215
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:46,333
gonna be doing it. And I

1216
00:41:46,333 --> 00:41:48,250
personally, I'm of the opinion

1217
00:41:48,250 --> 00:41:51,000
that the thing that provides meaning to

1218
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,708
human life is the creation of a human

1219
00:41:53,708 --> 00:41:54,291
story, the creation of

1220
00:41:54,791 --> 00:41:57,375
a human, a species wide legacy that you

1221
00:41:57,375 --> 00:41:59,083
binds and unites all of

1222
00:41:59,083 --> 00:42:01,166
humanity. These stories, these

1223
00:42:01,166 --> 00:42:03,958
cultural works, these great figures of

1224
00:42:03,958 --> 00:42:06,166
history, all of them have

1225
00:42:06,166 --> 00:42:08,250
meaning, even from the small,

1226
00:42:08,708 --> 00:42:12,625
like even the lives of the lowest, lowest

1227
00:42:12,625 --> 00:42:13,916
peasant from the medieval

1228
00:42:13,916 --> 00:42:16,166
era to a random office worker

1229
00:42:16,166 --> 00:42:18,375
today has meaning because that peasant

1230
00:42:18,375 --> 00:42:21,416
probably created through like, if you

1231
00:42:21,416 --> 00:42:22,208
look at it, probably

1232
00:42:22,416 --> 00:42:24,708
has like a butterfly effect where he has

1233
00:42:24,708 --> 00:42:27,000
a massive effect on

1234
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,041
geopolitical events today,

1235
00:42:28,041 --> 00:42:29,500
right? Because all of our actions are

1236
00:42:29,500 --> 00:42:31,750
interconnected, all of our actions have

1237
00:42:31,916 --> 00:42:37,958
cause and effect on each other. And like,

1238
00:42:37,958 --> 00:42:40,875
honestly, and I think that

1239
00:42:40,875 --> 00:42:42,833
so long as there's some human

1240
00:42:42,875 --> 00:42:45,333
out there in the universe, some human,

1241
00:42:45,333 --> 00:42:46,458
some fragment or some

1242
00:42:46,458 --> 00:42:48,416
ember or spark of humanity,

1243
00:42:48,750 --> 00:42:50,250
somewhere in the universe, does not be on

1244
00:42:50,250 --> 00:42:52,833
earth. Everything that

1245
00:42:52,833 --> 00:42:54,625
humanity has done, up to that

1246
00:42:54,625 --> 00:42:57,375
point, will have had meaning, and all of

1247
00:42:57,375 --> 00:42:58,500
humanity lives on through

1248
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:00,625
them. But if humanity is

1249
00:43:00,625 --> 00:43:03,125
extinguished, then nothing that we did

1250
00:43:03,125 --> 00:43:04,125
ever has had value,

1251
00:43:04,416 --> 00:43:05,750
nothing we did ever has met,

1252
00:43:06,208 --> 00:43:09,000
nothing did ever matters. And is our goal

1253
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,750
to keep that spark that

1254
00:43:10,750 --> 00:43:12,375
kind of fragment of human

1255
00:43:12,416 --> 00:43:15,458
consciousness and sentience and form

1256
00:43:15,458 --> 00:43:18,000
alive as long as possible,

1257
00:43:19,250 --> 00:43:21,166
even if it means expanding

1258
00:43:21,166 --> 00:43:22,958
humanity off world, even if it means

1259
00:43:22,958 --> 00:43:25,208
sending humans, like spreading humanity

1260
00:43:25,208 --> 00:43:27,750
across billions of worlds

1261
00:43:27,833 --> 00:43:30,416
or trillions of galaxies, we have to do

1262
00:43:30,416 --> 00:43:32,708
it. I'm with you. I want it

1263
00:43:32,708 --> 00:43:35,125
to happen. And I absolutely

1264
00:43:35,208 --> 00:43:38,583
hope that we can, the human species can

1265
00:43:38,583 --> 00:43:40,416
survive for infinity and

1266
00:43:40,416 --> 00:43:43,375
beyond for as long as can be,

1267
00:43:43,375 --> 00:43:46,250
just like building a company, building a

1268
00:43:46,250 --> 00:43:47,541
lasting company, all

1269
00:43:47,541 --> 00:43:50,833
companies eventually die, trying to

1270
00:43:50,875 --> 00:43:53,000
prolong our species. Perhaps we can agree

1271
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,500
to disagree on this one. I

1272
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:55,208
don't want to be pessimistic,

1273
00:43:55,916 --> 00:43:58,083
but I would love for us to be on tens of

1274
00:43:58,083 --> 00:43:59,291
thousands, millions, billions of

1275
00:43:59,291 --> 00:44:00,208
different worlds and survive

1276
00:44:00,333 --> 00:44:02,708
for billions or trillions of years. But

1277
00:44:02,708 --> 00:44:06,166
this too shall pass, right?

1278
00:44:06,625 --> 00:44:08,041
Everything does have an ending

1279
00:44:08,250 --> 00:44:10,375
when the grand scope of infinity, perhaps

1280
00:44:10,375 --> 00:44:12,875
we can agree. I think the

1281
00:44:12,875 --> 00:44:14,375
ending of humanity would look

1282
00:44:14,583 --> 00:44:17,583
less like a traditional extinction. And

1283
00:44:17,583 --> 00:44:18,416
we're around millions of

1284
00:44:18,416 --> 00:44:19,791
worlds. There is nothing that

1285
00:44:19,791 --> 00:44:21,666
can really drive humanity extinct. There

1286
00:44:21,666 --> 00:44:22,791
is no cosmic event.

1287
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,958
Humanity would have been so greatly

1288
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,333
dispersed that nothing can harm us down.

1289
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:29,833
Nothing can exterminate us.

1290
00:44:29,833 --> 00:44:30,916
I think what will eventually

1291
00:44:30,958 --> 00:44:34,625
happen is humanity evolves along

1292
00:44:34,625 --> 00:44:37,000
different paths. And in 10 million years

1293
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:38,166
or billions of years,

1294
00:44:39,291 --> 00:44:41,291
we'll have tons and tons of descendant

1295
00:44:41,291 --> 00:44:45,083
species, but it will be

1296
00:44:45,083 --> 00:44:47,625
completely unrecognizable to

1297
00:44:47,666 --> 00:44:50,000
modern day humans. But I think

1298
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,625
maintaining that so long as our

1299
00:44:51,625 --> 00:44:52,791
continuous line continues,

1300
00:44:53,333 --> 00:44:55,000
and we still have these descendants

1301
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,666
species spread across

1302
00:44:58,666 --> 00:45:00,916
millions of worlds, humanity still

1303
00:45:00,916 --> 00:45:03,000
lives on through them. They're still

1304
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,583
descendants in a way. They're still

1305
00:45:05,583 --> 00:45:06,875
connected to the main

1306
00:45:06,875 --> 00:45:09,916
line of humanity. And as long as they

1307
00:45:09,916 --> 00:45:10,791
exist, humanity also

1308
00:45:10,791 --> 00:45:13,041
exists, even if they aren't

1309
00:45:13,208 --> 00:45:15,291
demonstratively human anymore. Right.

1310
00:45:15,666 --> 00:45:16,708
That was my next question.

1311
00:45:17,333 --> 00:45:19,083
You hear that, we're thinking in

1312
00:45:19,125 --> 00:45:21,666
the same place there. What do you think

1313
00:45:21,666 --> 00:45:24,125
about life outside of

1314
00:45:24,125 --> 00:45:25,916
Earth, aside from humans today?

1315
00:45:26,375 --> 00:45:29,125
Like where do you think it exists?

1316
00:45:30,250 --> 00:45:31,208
Without a question, without

1317
00:45:31,208 --> 00:45:33,208
a doubt. It's a mathematical

1318
00:45:33,291 --> 00:45:35,833
certainty. I think it's probably even

1319
00:45:35,833 --> 00:45:36,916
more likely that life exists

1320
00:45:36,916 --> 00:45:38,291
in the solar system, right? You

1321
00:45:38,291 --> 00:45:40,500
look at the icy moons of Europa, you look

1322
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:42,791
at the oceanic moons of

1323
00:45:42,791 --> 00:45:44,375
Jupiter and Saturn, you look at

1324
00:45:44,416 --> 00:45:47,791
Titan. We have found organic compounds in

1325
00:45:47,791 --> 00:45:48,500
the atmosphere and

1326
00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:51,166
methane that's a Titan. And we

1327
00:45:51,291 --> 00:45:54,708
know like the oceans of Europa are warm

1328
00:45:54,708 --> 00:45:56,458
at the very core of it because

1329
00:45:56,458 --> 00:45:58,000
gravitational effects on the

1330
00:45:58,625 --> 00:46:00,583
rock core of Europa actually generates

1331
00:46:00,583 --> 00:46:02,666
heat. And it's shielded from the

1332
00:46:02,666 --> 00:46:03,875
radiation of Jupiter by

1333
00:46:03,875 --> 00:46:05,666
mouths of ice as well as mouths of

1334
00:46:05,666 --> 00:46:09,625
underwater ocean. We also know that

1335
00:46:09,625 --> 00:46:10,791
liquid water exists elsewhere

1336
00:46:10,875 --> 00:46:12,541
in the solar system. And we have found

1337
00:46:12,541 --> 00:46:14,000
liquid water on, I believe,

1338
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,791
Mars, as well as other moons

1339
00:46:15,833 --> 00:46:18,708
in the outer solar system. And I also do

1340
00:46:18,708 --> 00:46:21,041
believe that these oceanic

1341
00:46:21,041 --> 00:46:22,833
moons are actually the most

1342
00:46:23,041 --> 00:46:26,583
likely outcome of life-bearing worlds,

1343
00:46:26,583 --> 00:46:29,750
right? Look at how many terrestrial

1344
00:46:29,750 --> 00:46:30,666
life-bearing planets

1345
00:46:30,875 --> 00:46:32,583
worlds are in the solar system today.

1346
00:46:33,083 --> 00:46:34,791
One. But if you include the

1347
00:46:34,791 --> 00:46:37,250
moons in it, the oceanic moons,

1348
00:46:37,458 --> 00:46:40,708
then that count vastly increases to what,

1349
00:46:41,083 --> 00:46:42,666
like three or four maybe?

1350
00:46:43,208 --> 00:46:44,625
And I think the life that as

1351
00:46:44,625 --> 00:46:47,458
we know it, life on these oceanic moons

1352
00:46:47,458 --> 00:46:49,833
is probably far more likely outside of

1353
00:46:49,833 --> 00:46:50,375
the solar system too

1354
00:46:50,375 --> 00:46:53,000
because these moons and these oceanic icy

1355
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:54,666
worlds are going to be

1356
00:46:54,666 --> 00:46:56,166
far more common in like a

1357
00:46:56,250 --> 00:46:58,041
temperate terrestrial planet like

1358
00:46:58,041 --> 00:47:02,250
Earth's. And we essentially by this over,

1359
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:03,416
I think we are a bit

1360
00:47:03,458 --> 00:47:05,083
over indexing on trying to find the most

1361
00:47:05,083 --> 00:47:06,583
Earth-like planet possible

1362
00:47:06,583 --> 00:47:09,250
when life can exist on so many

1363
00:47:09,375 --> 00:47:11,375
in so many other different forms on so

1364
00:47:11,375 --> 00:47:13,166
many other different planets. I will,

1365
00:47:13,166 --> 00:47:14,166
however, note that I

1366
00:47:14,166 --> 00:47:19,291
think industrial space-faring species

1367
00:47:19,291 --> 00:47:21,916
like us is a rarity. It's

1368
00:47:21,916 --> 00:47:23,333
an anomaly in the universe.

1369
00:47:24,041 --> 00:47:26,000
I think that we are, it's not unlikely

1370
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,166
that we are amongst

1371
00:47:27,166 --> 00:47:29,125
the first generation of

1372
00:47:29,375 --> 00:47:30,916
space-faring civilizations, potentially

1373
00:47:30,916 --> 00:47:32,791
space-faring civilizations out there.

1374
00:47:33,666 --> 00:47:36,250
And the main reason is intelligence isn't

1375
00:47:36,250 --> 00:47:37,000
really something that

1376
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,416
evolves, that evolution evolves

1377
00:47:39,416 --> 00:47:41,458
for, right? Evolution seducts for

1378
00:47:41,458 --> 00:47:42,750
short-term benefits

1379
00:47:42,750 --> 00:47:45,083
focused around reproduction, not

1380
00:47:45,208 --> 00:47:47,666
long-term benefit. Like there is nothing

1381
00:47:47,666 --> 00:47:49,583
in evolution that says

1382
00:47:49,583 --> 00:47:51,333
intelligence is inherently

1383
00:47:52,708 --> 00:47:54,625
a trait that supports reproduction,

1384
00:47:54,916 --> 00:47:55,833
right? Intelligence does

1385
00:47:55,833 --> 00:47:56,875
help us survive against

1386
00:47:56,875 --> 00:47:58,458
predators, it helps us hunt, it helps us

1387
00:47:58,458 --> 00:48:00,833
gather food, but there is nothing about

1388
00:48:01,916 --> 00:48:04,333
building like an urban civilization that

1389
00:48:04,333 --> 00:48:07,666
like really makes it...

1390
00:48:08,416 --> 00:48:10,208
Okay, there's nothing about like having

1391
00:48:10,208 --> 00:48:12,166
an urban civilization which reproductions

1392
00:48:12,166 --> 00:48:13,583
easier. If anything,

1393
00:48:13,583 --> 00:48:15,458
having urban civilization like fucking

1394
00:48:15,458 --> 00:48:16,875
dating after kings makes our

1395
00:48:16,875 --> 00:48:17,791
reproductions harder.

1396
00:48:20,083 --> 00:48:22,583
I'm just saying it, right? So there's

1397
00:48:22,583 --> 00:48:26,458
nothing like... And there's also

1398
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:28,750
other aspects like we have hands, our

1399
00:48:28,750 --> 00:48:31,083
hands create tools or we

1400
00:48:31,083 --> 00:48:33,041
can use these tools to farm,

1401
00:48:33,041 --> 00:48:34,291
we can use these tools to build cities,

1402
00:48:34,291 --> 00:48:35,500
we can use tools to build construction.

1403
00:48:37,458 --> 00:48:39,916
Animals like dolphins can be as smart as

1404
00:48:39,916 --> 00:48:41,291
humans. They don't have hands though,

1405
00:48:41,625 --> 00:48:42,916
they can't, they will never find fire,

1406
00:48:43,250 --> 00:48:44,333
they will never farm, they

1407
00:48:44,333 --> 00:48:46,083
will never build structures on

1408
00:48:46,083 --> 00:48:48,875
the water. And this kind of means that

1409
00:48:48,875 --> 00:48:49,875
even if dolphins are as

1410
00:48:49,875 --> 00:48:51,625
smart as humans, they never will

1411
00:48:51,625 --> 00:48:53,583
have the ability to develop a truly

1412
00:48:53,583 --> 00:48:55,083
industrial and space-faring

1413
00:48:55,083 --> 00:48:56,041
civilization, they will never

1414
00:48:56,083 --> 00:48:58,416
be able to advance down like the tech

1415
00:48:58,416 --> 00:49:00,541
tree of civilization. And

1416
00:49:00,541 --> 00:49:02,250
this is also something that we

1417
00:49:02,250 --> 00:49:05,625
are like... So if intelligence isn't

1418
00:49:05,625 --> 00:49:06,416
really something that

1419
00:49:06,416 --> 00:49:07,791
life naturally evolves to,

1420
00:49:08,291 --> 00:49:10,458
and hands also isn't something that life

1421
00:49:10,458 --> 00:49:12,000
naturally evolves to, then

1422
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,625
it can be seen that yeah,

1423
00:49:13,625 --> 00:49:17,041
humanity is a fluke. We weren't really

1424
00:49:17,041 --> 00:49:18,291
supposed to exist and yet we

1425
00:49:18,291 --> 00:49:20,708
do. And that really is what

1426
00:49:20,750 --> 00:49:22,208
I think is most beautiful aspect of it

1427
00:49:22,208 --> 00:49:24,958
all. What do you think

1428
00:49:24,958 --> 00:49:27,416
about this? If we don't really

1429
00:49:27,416 --> 00:49:30,583
know what the beginning of time was,

1430
00:49:31,875 --> 00:49:33,833
there could have been an

1431
00:49:33,833 --> 00:49:35,666
infinite amount of time before

1432
00:49:36,875 --> 00:49:39,958
Earth's existence. Isn't it inevitable

1433
00:49:39,958 --> 00:49:41,958
that there have been an

1434
00:49:41,958 --> 00:49:44,541
infinite amount of species that are

1435
00:49:44,541 --> 00:49:46,083
more intelligent than us that already

1436
00:49:46,083 --> 00:49:48,958
existed, do exist and will exist? With

1437
00:49:48,958 --> 00:49:50,625
the unknown limitations

1438
00:49:50,708 --> 00:49:54,541
of space, how far it goes, and the

1439
00:49:54,541 --> 00:49:56,541
unknown of how far time went

1440
00:49:56,541 --> 00:49:58,125
back and time goes forward?

1441
00:49:59,166 --> 00:50:00,708
Well, we have an idea of how long the

1442
00:50:00,708 --> 00:50:02,541
universe has been around.

1443
00:50:04,166 --> 00:50:06,375
Based on like traveling, but there's like

1444
00:50:06,375 --> 00:50:07,500
an unperceivable universe,

1445
00:50:07,875 --> 00:50:10,833
right? Unperceivable space past our realm

1446
00:50:10,833 --> 00:50:11,583
of detection, right?

1447
00:50:12,666 --> 00:50:17,250
That's true, but that also... If we go

1448
00:50:17,250 --> 00:50:18,041
into that, we're going to talk about

1449
00:50:18,041 --> 00:50:18,958
quantum physics and that.

1450
00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:20,666
I'm afraid that's a field I'm not really

1451
00:50:20,666 --> 00:50:21,541
qualified to answer.

1452
00:50:22,416 --> 00:50:23,291
Sure, sure.

1453
00:50:23,750 --> 00:50:28,916
I can also point out that the elements

1454
00:50:28,916 --> 00:50:30,583
required to build

1455
00:50:30,583 --> 00:50:32,666
industrial civilization like uranium,

1456
00:50:33,166 --> 00:50:35,500
plutonium, like these elements, right?

1457
00:50:35,833 --> 00:50:37,000
They have only come

1458
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,041
into existence through the

1459
00:50:38,083 --> 00:50:40,000
successive generations of stars being

1460
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,500
born, stars compressing, crushing

1461
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:43,666
materials within the core,

1462
00:50:44,083 --> 00:50:50,208
and stars dying. Yes, it is possible that

1463
00:50:50,208 --> 00:50:51,541
the second or third

1464
00:50:51,541 --> 00:50:53,541
generation of stars had the ability

1465
00:50:53,666 --> 00:50:57,208
to produce these life-bearing worlds, but

1466
00:50:57,208 --> 00:50:59,041
these life-bearing worlds in the far, far

1467
00:50:59,041 --> 00:51:01,458
early universe wouldn't have necessarily

1468
00:51:01,458 --> 00:51:03,041
had access to these heavy

1469
00:51:03,041 --> 00:51:05,083
elements required to build

1470
00:51:05,583 --> 00:51:08,166
large-scale civilization. So I don't

1471
00:51:08,166 --> 00:51:09,791
think... I think it is

1472
00:51:09,791 --> 00:51:10,625
possible that we are...

1473
00:51:10,958 --> 00:51:12,833
Like our sun is still early, right? The

1474
00:51:12,833 --> 00:51:15,708
universe right now is... We

1475
00:51:15,708 --> 00:51:17,500
haven't even gotten to 1% of

1476
00:51:17,500 --> 00:51:19,666
the universe's lifespan, I don't think.

1477
00:51:20,333 --> 00:51:22,041
And like 99% of the universe's

1478
00:51:22,041 --> 00:51:23,125
life-sharing is still ahead of us.

1479
00:51:23,125 --> 00:51:26,125
So it is not unlikely that we are amongst

1480
00:51:26,125 --> 00:51:27,708
the first, if not like the

1481
00:51:27,708 --> 00:51:29,583
first five or so generations

1482
00:51:30,583 --> 00:51:33,125
of stars that are capable of producing

1483
00:51:33,125 --> 00:51:36,250
life with the ability

1484
00:51:36,250 --> 00:51:38,000
to go to other worlds,

1485
00:51:38,250 --> 00:51:39,541
with the ability to develop advanced

1486
00:51:39,541 --> 00:51:40,500
technologies, and with the

1487
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:41,708
ability to industrialize.

1488
00:51:45,875 --> 00:51:48,958
Do you see time travel and space travel

1489
00:51:48,958 --> 00:51:51,083
as integrally interconnected?

1490
00:51:52,375 --> 00:51:53,875
Well, they already are. They were at the

1491
00:51:53,875 --> 00:51:54,875
theory of relativity. I

1492
00:51:54,875 --> 00:51:56,375
mean, if the moon had like speed,

1493
00:51:56,416 --> 00:51:58,583
right? Like time moves much more fast for

1494
00:51:58,583 --> 00:52:00,000
you versus like time

1495
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,458
for someone, an external

1496
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:03,458
observer. So we can travel to the future,

1497
00:52:04,125 --> 00:52:05,166
but can we travel through

1498
00:52:05,166 --> 00:52:07,125
the past? And I have no idea

1499
00:52:07,208 --> 00:52:08,875
how we would ever travel through the

1500
00:52:08,875 --> 00:52:11,125
past. That opens up a whole can of words,

1501
00:52:11,708 --> 00:52:13,000
a bunch of questions.

1502
00:52:13,833 --> 00:52:15,833
Like you have something different

1503
00:52:15,833 --> 00:52:18,000
temporal paradoxes. And

1504
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,958
my personal theory is,

1505
00:52:21,125 --> 00:52:23,250
hypothesis always has been that if you

1506
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:24,000
travel to the past, you

1507
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:24,750
just create a new alternate

1508
00:52:24,875 --> 00:52:27,166
universe and that just kind of handwaves

1509
00:52:27,166 --> 00:52:29,416
away all of the paradox theories.

1510
00:52:31,333 --> 00:52:32,750
We've already noticed like a difference

1511
00:52:32,750 --> 00:52:34,541
in like the movement of

1512
00:52:34,541 --> 00:52:35,875
time between like astronauts

1513
00:52:35,875 --> 00:52:37,500
in the space station and earth, like very

1514
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:38,416
minuscule, of course.

1515
00:52:38,625 --> 00:52:39,583
Very minuscule.

1516
00:52:39,833 --> 00:52:42,000
As we move forward, right?

1517
00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:45,875
Yeah. And as humanity like starts going

1518
00:52:45,875 --> 00:52:47,083
into stutter, right,

1519
00:52:47,250 --> 00:52:48,458
and like over the next few

1520
00:52:48,458 --> 00:52:50,000
centuries, I start saying it's lower than

1521
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,000
like starships, out

1522
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:51,708
to like Alpha Centauri,

1523
00:52:52,333 --> 00:52:55,291
out to like Barnard star or like Sirius,

1524
00:52:56,458 --> 00:52:57,583
we moving at, let's say

1525
00:52:57,583 --> 00:52:59,500
50% light speed or like 70%

1526
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:01,208
light speed, that's when we come very,

1527
00:53:01,208 --> 00:53:02,041
very apparent. And

1528
00:53:02,041 --> 00:53:03,291
like we're gonna, I mean,

1529
00:53:03,291 --> 00:53:04,791
it's gonna be strange really, like seeing

1530
00:53:04,791 --> 00:53:07,708
astronauts coming back from a star from a

1531
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:09,666
mission that took like 30 years and

1532
00:53:09,666 --> 00:53:10,375
you're still with the same

1533
00:53:10,375 --> 00:53:11,583
age that they were as they left.

1534
00:53:12,250 --> 00:53:13,291
And but that's just,

1535
00:53:13,291 --> 00:53:14,375
that's just relativity.

1536
00:53:15,791 --> 00:53:18,958
Do you think in order to explore like the

1537
00:53:18,958 --> 00:53:20,083
rest of the known universe

1538
00:53:20,083 --> 00:53:21,916
that we will need to be able to

1539
00:53:22,041 --> 00:53:24,250
exceed the speed of light? Or do you

1540
00:53:24,250 --> 00:53:25,500
think that will be a fundamental

1541
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:28,333
limitation and we have to

1542
00:53:28,333 --> 00:53:29,625
like freeze ourselves

1543
00:53:29,625 --> 00:53:30,708
or do something else?

1544
00:53:32,250 --> 00:53:35,958
So if you can reach 99% light speed, or

1545
00:53:35,958 --> 00:53:37,583
these massive velocities,

1546
00:53:37,583 --> 00:53:38,250
you actually don't need to

1547
00:53:38,250 --> 00:53:41,166
freeze yourself. Now getting back is

1548
00:53:41,166 --> 00:53:44,291
another issue. But if you go, but the

1549
00:53:44,291 --> 00:53:45,125
theory of relativity,

1550
00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:47,166
let's say you're going to 99% speed of

1551
00:53:47,166 --> 00:53:49,916
light, right? One day for

1552
00:53:49,916 --> 00:53:51,208
you is one year on earth.

1553
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,125
Well, that means you can essentially hit

1554
00:53:54,125 --> 00:53:55,375
Alpha Centauri in four

1555
00:53:55,375 --> 00:53:56,458
days from your perspective.

1556
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,833
You can cross, you can hit a star system

1557
00:53:59,833 --> 00:54:01,791
that's 300 light years away

1558
00:54:01,791 --> 00:54:03,541
in just 300 days and you just

1559
00:54:03,541 --> 00:54:06,375
move like 99.9999 or like just keep

1560
00:54:06,375 --> 00:54:08,791
generating. You can essentially cross a

1561
00:54:08,791 --> 00:54:10,541
Milky Way in a month,

1562
00:54:10,750 --> 00:54:13,916
potentially, just by like, and yes, from

1563
00:54:13,916 --> 00:54:15,000
the perspective of Earth,

1564
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:16,416
it took you 100,000 years

1565
00:54:16,416 --> 00:54:18,000
to cross the Milky Way. But from your

1566
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,791
perspective, since you're moving so close

1567
00:54:19,791 --> 00:54:20,458
to the speed of light,

1568
00:54:20,500 --> 00:54:23,500
only took you a month. And if you're fine

1569
00:54:23,500 --> 00:54:25,666
with it being a one way

1570
00:54:25,666 --> 00:54:27,125
trip, since I'm assuming you

1571
00:54:27,125 --> 00:54:28,500
probably don't want to come back to Earth

1572
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:31,375
after like 200,000 years, you can

1573
00:54:31,375 --> 00:54:32,500
probably like spread

1574
00:54:32,500 --> 00:54:37,000
humanity out very, very, very far. What

1575
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,708
about like, answering my

1576
00:54:39,708 --> 00:54:41,708
question for like the further

1577
00:54:41,750 --> 00:54:44,291
bounds of our universe, like that are

1578
00:54:44,291 --> 00:54:46,500
much further out? Like, what do you think

1579
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:47,083
about that? Like, how

1580
00:54:47,125 --> 00:54:49,375
do you think space travel may evolve for

1581
00:54:49,375 --> 00:54:50,083
those where you're

1582
00:54:50,083 --> 00:54:52,500
traveling for a decade plus at the

1583
00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:54,791
speed of 99% the speed of light, like

1584
00:54:54,791 --> 00:54:55,625
you're still not able to

1585
00:54:55,625 --> 00:54:56,583
reach everything, right?

1586
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,000
Like what are you correct solutions may

1587
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,958
look like, like as we become a space

1588
00:55:00,958 --> 00:55:01,708
faring civilization,

1589
00:55:01,833 --> 00:55:05,083
and this becomes like a real thing. Well,

1590
00:55:05,083 --> 00:55:06,083
if you're trying to so the

1591
00:55:06,083 --> 00:55:07,958
universe is expanding faster

1592
00:55:08,208 --> 00:55:12,750
than the speed. To be honest, if I have

1593
00:55:12,750 --> 00:55:14,125
no idea what will compel a

1594
00:55:14,125 --> 00:55:16,541
man to attempt to reach the

1595
00:55:16,916 --> 00:55:19,125
part of the universe that you cannot even

1596
00:55:19,125 --> 00:55:20,791
travel to at light to be.

1597
00:55:22,666 --> 00:55:23,958
Because at that point, you're

1598
00:55:24,916 --> 00:55:27,041
dude, there's like so much other stuff.

1599
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:29,250
So much closer. I have no

1600
00:55:29,250 --> 00:55:31,500
idea how that would even be

1601
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:33,625
possible. Sure. To be honest, like I've

1602
00:55:33,625 --> 00:55:34,625
not like unless you're

1603
00:55:34,625 --> 00:55:36,000
doing some like, fuckery,

1604
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,000
but I don't think we do that fuckery like

1605
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:39,000
wormholes or some shit.

1606
00:55:39,458 --> 00:55:41,583
Right? Yeah, I know. I have no

1607
00:55:41,625 --> 00:55:43,666
idea. I'm not physicist. I'm not

1608
00:55:43,666 --> 00:55:44,500
physicist. I have no

1609
00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:45,375
idea how that's possible.

1610
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:47,583
Right. Coming a little more back down to

1611
00:55:47,583 --> 00:55:49,750
earth, pun intended. What

1612
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:51,208
do you think the next like,

1613
00:55:51,583 --> 00:55:53,666
the next 50 to 100 years are going to

1614
00:55:53,666 --> 00:55:55,916
look like? And like what

1615
00:55:55,916 --> 00:55:57,500
we're doing in space? Like,

1616
00:55:57,500 --> 00:55:59,875
what do you think like the next few, like

1617
00:55:59,875 --> 00:56:01,083
milestones like our

1618
00:56:01,083 --> 00:56:02,833
generations moon landing equivalent,

1619
00:56:03,291 --> 00:56:05,416
and maybe like our children's generation

1620
00:56:05,416 --> 00:56:06,291
moon landing equivalent?

1621
00:56:06,291 --> 00:56:07,083
What do you think those two

1622
00:56:07,416 --> 00:56:09,750
next tremendous leaps might look like?

1623
00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:11,458
Not in terms of technology,

1624
00:56:11,708 --> 00:56:13,500
but perhaps in like milestones

1625
00:56:13,583 --> 00:56:15,750
that are realizable and understandable to

1626
00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:17,583
all layman's on earth in

1627
00:56:17,583 --> 00:56:19,291
space? Yeah, exactly. In

1628
00:56:19,291 --> 00:56:23,666
space, though. Yeah. So our art set. So

1629
00:56:23,666 --> 00:56:25,125
when we landed on the

1630
00:56:25,125 --> 00:56:26,541
moon, that was a very clear,

1631
00:56:26,791 --> 00:56:28,666
clear cut, like achievement, right? Like,

1632
00:56:28,666 --> 00:56:29,750
commande has touched

1633
00:56:29,750 --> 00:56:31,666
down on the moon, we can,

1634
00:56:31,666 --> 00:56:33,166
we've walked on the surface, everyone can

1635
00:56:33,166 --> 00:56:35,000
see the moon. And like,

1636
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:35,833
that was deemed as very

1637
00:56:35,875 --> 00:56:37,541
futuristic. We were in part of the space

1638
00:56:37,541 --> 00:56:38,625
race. We want to be

1639
00:56:38,625 --> 00:56:40,791
director reds. Nowadays,

1640
00:56:41,958 --> 00:56:43,708
perhaps the first man landing on Mars.

1641
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,500
The big thing is, I don't

1642
00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:49,333
really know when the first

1643
00:56:49,333 --> 00:56:51,250
Mars thing will happen. NASA says, this

1644
00:56:51,250 --> 00:56:53,041
would do in 2040. I've looked at that,

1645
00:56:53,041 --> 00:56:53,625
like, if you look at

1646
00:56:53,625 --> 00:56:55,125
NASA's Mars architecture, though, the

1647
00:56:55,125 --> 00:56:55,791
same thing, the one that

1648
00:56:55,791 --> 00:56:57,875
does 16, so less rockets, which

1649
00:56:58,083 --> 00:57:00,083
everyone knows is not going to happen.

1650
00:57:01,291 --> 00:57:02,416
NASA has pushed back the day

1651
00:57:02,416 --> 00:57:03,833
for Mars landing, like that,

1652
00:57:03,875 --> 00:57:05,750
by decade, by decade, by decade, they

1653
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:06,791
said it would download Mars.

1654
00:57:06,791 --> 00:57:08,333
And then I remember a project

1655
00:57:08,333 --> 00:57:09,875
constellation said it would download Mars

1656
00:57:09,875 --> 00:57:10,958
by like sometime in the

1657
00:57:10,958 --> 00:57:13,083
late 2020s. Obviously, I never

1658
00:57:13,083 --> 00:57:14,500
happened. That's not going to happen when

1659
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:14,708
the project

1660
00:57:14,708 --> 00:57:16,250
constellation got canned. They said

1661
00:57:16,250 --> 00:57:18,666
sometime in the 2030s. Now, obviously

1662
00:57:18,666 --> 00:57:19,916
that's going to happen. And now it's

1663
00:57:19,916 --> 00:57:20,875
saying sometime in the,

1664
00:57:21,041 --> 00:57:23,875
in the 2040s. So a Mars landing is always

1665
00:57:23,875 --> 00:57:26,958
20 years away. But

1666
00:57:26,958 --> 00:57:30,125
there also is the aspect of

1667
00:57:30,166 --> 00:57:32,291
greater Jupiter competition from nations

1668
00:57:32,291 --> 00:57:34,083
like China, right? China's

1669
00:57:34,083 --> 00:57:35,583
wild card, China, the Chinese

1670
00:57:35,583 --> 00:57:39,000
space agency. Yes, they do have a bad

1671
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,291
habit of dropping rockets on

1672
00:57:41,291 --> 00:57:42,291
top of the world villagers.

1673
00:57:43,125 --> 00:57:45,416
However, they have a very good habit of

1674
00:57:45,416 --> 00:57:47,500
sticking to timelines to

1675
00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:49,041
give them credit for that.

1676
00:57:49,625 --> 00:57:52,750
Yeah, well, I mean, like, when you're,

1677
00:57:52,750 --> 00:57:53,375
when you're building

1678
00:57:53,375 --> 00:57:54,833
things for communist regime,

1679
00:57:55,125 --> 00:57:58,041
failure could mean so much more for you

1680
00:57:58,041 --> 00:57:59,000
and your family than

1681
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,166
failure in capitalism, right?

1682
00:58:02,583 --> 00:58:04,333
I imagine, I imagine, I imagine they are

1683
00:58:04,333 --> 00:58:06,875
quite, quite expedient and motivated.

1684
00:58:08,125 --> 00:58:10,666
I would also argue they are motivated by

1685
00:58:10,666 --> 00:58:12,208
a factor of national pride.

1686
00:58:12,208 --> 00:58:13,208
They want to show that their

1687
00:58:13,208 --> 00:58:14,708
technology is superior to that, the

1688
00:58:14,708 --> 00:58:18,750
technology in particular superior to that

1689
00:58:18,750 --> 00:58:19,708
of the United States.

1690
00:58:20,250 --> 00:58:21,916
And there is no better way to demonstrate

1691
00:58:21,916 --> 00:58:23,458
that than beating the US

1692
00:58:23,458 --> 00:58:24,375
back to the moon and beating

1693
00:58:24,416 --> 00:58:27,916
the US to Mars. And to be honest, like,

1694
00:58:27,916 --> 00:58:30,500
if it was not for Elon Musk,

1695
00:58:31,375 --> 00:58:34,416
and SpaceX, I would bet all my

1696
00:58:34,416 --> 00:58:36,708
money that China would that the first man

1697
00:58:36,708 --> 00:58:37,958
back on the moon would be speaking

1698
00:58:37,958 --> 00:58:39,000
Chinese and at the first

1699
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,250
man and the language spoken by the Mars

1700
00:58:41,250 --> 00:58:42,958
would be fucking Mandarin.

1701
00:58:44,583 --> 00:58:46,875
Well, I guess, thank God we have Elon.

1702
00:58:47,541 --> 00:58:49,750
What do you think like the role of

1703
00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:50,791
governments should be in

1704
00:58:50,791 --> 00:58:52,458
the space business? Like, do you think

1705
00:58:52,458 --> 00:58:54,458
that like, you know, government, like

1706
00:58:54,458 --> 00:58:55,458
especially like the US,

1707
00:58:55,458 --> 00:58:56,916
like our government has proved its

1708
00:58:56,916 --> 00:58:58,375
incompetence and it's time

1709
00:58:58,375 --> 00:58:59,625
to really hand over the reins,

1710
00:58:59,916 --> 00:59:02,208
like an invest like taxpayer money into

1711
00:59:02,208 --> 00:59:05,708
more of these private companies? What's

1712
00:59:05,708 --> 00:59:06,458
your stance on that?

1713
00:59:06,458 --> 00:59:08,916
What do you think? To guide, but not to

1714
00:59:08,916 --> 00:59:13,000
be involved. So that's the biggest

1715
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,416
success that NASA has had

1716
00:59:14,416 --> 00:59:17,041
in the past decade, or one in the food

1717
00:59:17,041 --> 00:59:18,250
aspect has been the

1718
00:59:18,250 --> 00:59:19,375
commercial food program, right?

1719
00:59:19,666 --> 00:59:22,041
Getting the space, getting spaces to fly

1720
00:59:22,041 --> 00:59:23,083
the manned dragon

1721
00:59:23,083 --> 00:59:24,416
capsules up to the international

1722
00:59:24,500 --> 00:59:26,208
space station for crew rotations, as well

1723
00:59:26,208 --> 00:59:26,916
as performing more

1724
00:59:26,916 --> 00:59:28,833
private missions like the

1725
00:59:29,500 --> 00:59:31,541
Polaris program with Jared Isaacman.

1726
00:59:32,625 --> 00:59:34,833
NASA's performance in the

1727
00:59:34,833 --> 00:59:36,583
manned aspect otherwise has

1728
00:59:36,583 --> 00:59:38,791
been essential. Look at the space launch

1729
00:59:38,791 --> 00:59:41,166
system. That thing was

1730
00:59:41,166 --> 00:59:42,375
supposed to cost, I believe,

1731
00:59:42,791 --> 00:59:45,250
500 million per launch back when it was

1732
00:59:45,250 --> 00:59:47,083
first announced is now, I

1733
00:59:47,083 --> 00:59:48,000
believe, somewhere in the

1734
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,625
range of two to three billion per launch.

1735
00:59:50,625 --> 00:59:52,000
I think it might be in the

1736
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,541
range of four billion now.

1737
00:59:54,250 --> 00:59:58,708
NASA's, it costs, NASA's launch power for

1738
00:59:58,708 --> 00:59:59,208
the Artemis

1739
00:59:59,208 --> 01:00:00,708
spacecraft was supposed to cost

1740
01:00:00,708 --> 01:00:03,458
30 million. Beto still hasn't finished

1741
01:00:03,458 --> 01:00:04,500
building that thing. I

1742
01:00:04,500 --> 01:00:06,291
don't think it cut metal on it.

1743
01:00:06,791 --> 01:00:09,250
And that thing has now ballooned to two

1744
01:00:09,250 --> 01:00:11,333
billion. The Artemis heat

1745
01:00:11,333 --> 01:00:13,500
shield has a tendency to fall

1746
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:16,458
apart during reentry on the lunar

1747
01:00:16,458 --> 01:00:18,916
trajectory. NASA still hasn't fixed that

1748
01:00:18,916 --> 01:00:19,541
at all. They've been

1749
01:00:19,541 --> 01:00:21,916
kicking a can down the road. The Gateway

1750
01:00:21,916 --> 01:00:23,958
program has proven to be a

1751
01:00:23,958 --> 01:00:25,250
boondoggle. I don't even know

1752
01:00:25,250 --> 01:00:26,708
what the hell they're planning to do with

1753
01:00:26,708 --> 01:00:28,833
that. They're just reusing

1754
01:00:28,833 --> 01:00:30,458
old ISS modules for that.

1755
01:00:31,125 --> 01:00:33,333
And to be honest, I have no idea what the

1756
01:00:33,333 --> 01:00:35,125
plan is with Gateway. The

1757
01:00:35,125 --> 01:00:36,708
human landing system, sort of

1758
01:00:36,708 --> 01:00:38,833
multiple different competitors. Now we've

1759
01:00:38,833 --> 01:00:40,250
pretty much, it's just

1760
01:00:40,250 --> 01:00:41,666
Starship that's making any progress

1761
01:00:42,333 --> 01:00:44,541
on human that's actually, I think NASA's

1762
01:00:44,541 --> 01:00:46,625
invested less money in the

1763
01:00:46,625 --> 01:00:48,416
lander to get down on the moon

1764
01:00:48,416 --> 01:00:50,041
and like go back to lunar orbit and like

1765
01:00:50,041 --> 01:00:51,583
go back to Earth. Then they

1766
01:00:51,583 --> 01:00:53,333
have in the fucking launch

1767
01:00:53,333 --> 01:00:55,500
tower for the space launch system, which

1768
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:56,500
is a giant hunk of battle.

1769
01:00:56,500 --> 01:00:57,666
That should not be the case.

1770
01:00:58,416 --> 01:01:00,541
And there also is the other issue of like

1771
01:01:00,541 --> 01:01:01,958
internal NASA politics have

1772
01:01:01,958 --> 01:01:04,625
hamstrung at most of their

1773
01:01:04,625 --> 01:01:06,875
robotic and scientific missions. Do you

1774
01:01:06,875 --> 01:01:08,333
read, have you heard of

1775
01:01:08,333 --> 01:01:11,458
Casey Hanver? I have not. So he

1776
01:01:11,583 --> 01:01:12,625
writes it out about like different

1777
01:01:12,625 --> 01:01:13,833
internal NASA politics on his

1778
01:01:13,833 --> 01:01:16,041
blog. One of the most notable

1779
01:01:16,541 --> 01:01:20,000
aspects is so NASA, to push through the

1780
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:21,166
James Webb space telescope,

1781
01:01:21,583 --> 01:01:24,000
NASA crippled all of their

1782
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,125
other space telescope programs. And now

1783
01:01:26,125 --> 01:01:27,708
you have space telescopes that are

1784
01:01:27,708 --> 01:01:28,416
supposed to launch in

1785
01:01:28,416 --> 01:01:30,250
the 2040s and 2050s. And by that point,

1786
01:01:30,250 --> 01:01:32,583
so far away from today, that the multiple

1787
01:01:32,583 --> 01:01:33,708
just never happened.

1788
01:01:34,250 --> 01:01:34,958
Right. The technology

1789
01:01:34,958 --> 01:01:36,291
will be irrelevant by then.

1790
01:01:36,333 --> 01:01:38,833
The guys will be irrelevant by then. NASA

1791
01:01:38,833 --> 01:01:41,333
JPL has a vision on building up by

1792
01:01:41,333 --> 01:01:42,416
culture. As a result,

1793
01:01:42,625 --> 01:01:46,458
JPL moves a bit slow. JPL also has been

1794
01:01:46,458 --> 01:01:48,333
unable to essentially offer

1795
01:01:48,333 --> 01:01:50,291
competitive wages like the best

1796
01:01:50,291 --> 01:01:52,541
of the aerospace engineers in the past.

1797
01:01:52,541 --> 01:01:54,208
We've gone to NASA, we're now going to

1798
01:01:54,208 --> 01:01:55,500
SpaceX, we're going to

1799
01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:57,250
space startups, we're going to different

1800
01:01:57,250 --> 01:01:58,166
private companies. They

1801
01:01:58,166 --> 01:01:59,458
don't want to work NASA anymore.

1802
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,916
Right. Like NASA no longer is getting

1803
01:02:01,916 --> 01:02:03,875
like the A crop of space

1804
01:02:03,875 --> 01:02:05,916
graduates or like people into a

1805
01:02:05,916 --> 01:02:08,416
new ratchet in space. They're all going

1806
01:02:08,416 --> 01:02:10,708
to SpaceX. And this

1807
01:02:10,708 --> 01:02:13,291
is like the no agency,

1808
01:02:13,916 --> 01:02:16,666
no organization has seen a greater fall

1809
01:02:16,666 --> 01:02:18,166
from grace over the past

1810
01:02:18,166 --> 01:02:19,666
decade than NASA has because

1811
01:02:19,666 --> 01:02:22,083
everyone has seen how badly the space

1812
01:02:22,083 --> 01:02:22,958
launch system has been

1813
01:02:22,958 --> 01:02:23,916
managed. Everyone has seen

1814
01:02:24,166 --> 01:02:26,916
how discombobulated NASA's plan for going

1815
01:02:26,916 --> 01:02:28,000
back to the moon is.

1816
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,500
Everyone has kind of realized

1817
01:02:29,500 --> 01:02:31,500
the Emperor has to close. NASA has no

1818
01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:32,583
real plan to get to Mars.

1819
01:02:33,333 --> 01:02:35,166
Right. China arguably is farther

1820
01:02:35,541 --> 01:02:38,000
along on the smart span than NASA is. And

1821
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:39,000
everyone has kind of seen

1822
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,291
like the Boeing Starliner

1823
01:02:40,333 --> 01:02:43,166
program. Boeing got twice as much money

1824
01:02:43,166 --> 01:02:45,916
as SpaceX did. Twice as

1825
01:02:45,916 --> 01:02:47,500
much money. And they still,

1826
01:02:47,583 --> 01:02:49,375
they've flown what, three missions now

1827
01:02:49,375 --> 01:02:50,541
and still have been unable

1828
01:02:50,541 --> 01:02:53,458
to demonstrate a safe return

1829
01:02:54,083 --> 01:02:56,375
without problems on any single mission.

1830
01:02:56,750 --> 01:02:57,500
Oh my gosh. The recent

1831
01:02:57,500 --> 01:02:58,708
problems were so embarrassing.

1832
01:02:59,458 --> 01:03:05,250
Yeah. Yeah. If, if and when you meet the

1833
01:03:05,250 --> 01:03:06,666
next president one-on-one,

1834
01:03:07,458 --> 01:03:09,000
what would you try to convince them of if

1835
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:10,333
you have an hour like in the

1836
01:03:10,333 --> 01:03:11,666
space domain or in general,

1837
01:03:11,833 --> 01:03:13,916
like what, how would you use your time?

1838
01:03:17,750 --> 01:03:19,791
Either you hand the reins of American

1839
01:03:19,791 --> 01:03:21,500
space exploration over to

1840
01:03:21,500 --> 01:03:22,833
private companies and you

1841
01:03:23,041 --> 01:03:25,500
have NASA act as more of a research

1842
01:03:25,500 --> 01:03:28,208
organization as and regulatory

1843
01:03:28,208 --> 01:03:29,708
organization similar in the vein

1844
01:03:29,708 --> 01:03:32,958
to the FAA or FCC. And so if him didn't

1845
01:03:32,958 --> 01:03:35,291
take the lead, unless you

1846
01:03:35,291 --> 01:03:37,125
do that and you have the US

1847
01:03:37,125 --> 01:03:39,041
focused on developing a privatized

1848
01:03:39,041 --> 01:03:41,916
self-distaining space economy versus like

1849
01:03:41,916 --> 01:03:42,916
doing flat and footprint

1850
01:03:42,916 --> 01:03:44,458
with like sinking billions of dollars

1851
01:03:44,458 --> 01:03:47,000
into cost plus flat and footprint

1852
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,625
missions like the space

1853
01:03:48,625 --> 01:03:51,708
launch system, China is going to have the

1854
01:03:51,708 --> 01:03:52,666
moon. China's going to have

1855
01:03:52,666 --> 01:03:53,416
the moon. China's going to

1856
01:03:53,416 --> 01:03:55,250
have the solar system. China's going to

1857
01:03:55,250 --> 01:03:56,291
have solar system. And when

1858
01:03:56,291 --> 01:03:58,458
China takes the moon, we're

1859
01:03:58,458 --> 01:04:00,666
taught China is going to have the lead

1860
01:04:00,666 --> 01:04:02,083
over the United States for

1861
01:04:02,083 --> 01:04:03,458
centuries to come because we're

1862
01:04:03,458 --> 01:04:04,791
talking about the whole world of

1863
01:04:04,791 --> 01:04:06,791
resources there, right? A whole world of

1864
01:04:06,791 --> 01:04:08,291
resources, a whole launch

1865
01:04:08,291 --> 01:04:10,916
pad that China can use, a whole foothold

1866
01:04:10,916 --> 01:04:11,750
that China can use to

1867
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:13,083
expand outwards into the solar

1868
01:04:13,125 --> 01:04:15,291
system. So either we beat China to the

1869
01:04:15,291 --> 01:04:18,791
moon or we at least try to

1870
01:04:18,791 --> 01:04:20,000
attain equal footing with China

1871
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,875
on the lunar surface or China will or the

1872
01:04:23,875 --> 01:04:26,916
first man that the first

1873
01:04:26,916 --> 01:04:30,083
starships will all be flown by

1874
01:04:30,166 --> 01:04:33,125
astronauts that speak Mandarin. And like

1875
01:04:33,125 --> 01:04:34,875
I'm not, I'm being honest here, right?

1876
01:04:35,125 --> 01:04:37,000
Like the only shining

1877
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,166
aspect of the US private, of the US space

1878
01:04:39,166 --> 01:04:40,375
economy has been the

1879
01:04:40,375 --> 01:04:41,500
American private space industry.

1880
01:04:41,583 --> 01:04:44,458
NASA has been more, if anything, has been

1881
01:04:44,458 --> 01:04:45,625
fucking up constantly

1882
01:04:45,625 --> 01:04:47,083
over the past decade. And now

1883
01:04:47,083 --> 01:04:49,000
everyone sees it. The big primes like

1884
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:50,625
Boeing have been fucking up constantly

1885
01:04:50,625 --> 01:04:51,333
over the past decade.

1886
01:04:51,333 --> 01:04:53,333
Now everyone sees it. And now everyone's

1887
01:04:53,333 --> 01:04:54,458
found realize that hey, if

1888
01:04:54,458 --> 01:04:55,791
like we let these traditional

1889
01:04:55,833 --> 01:04:57,708
organizations, these traditional big

1890
01:04:57,708 --> 01:04:58,875
companies and these traditional

1891
01:04:58,875 --> 01:05:00,000
government agencies take the

1892
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,000
lead when it comes to space exploration,

1893
01:05:03,416 --> 01:05:05,250
the US is never going to go anywhere.

1894
01:05:08,583 --> 01:05:11,500
So I know you'd mentioned before that

1895
01:05:11,500 --> 01:05:13,250
you're going to be on

1896
01:05:13,250 --> 01:05:14,583
your deathbed and mumbling

1897
01:05:15,041 --> 01:05:18,791
about space and space is going to be what

1898
01:05:18,791 --> 01:05:19,500
you do the rest of

1899
01:05:19,500 --> 01:05:20,250
your life till you die.

1900
01:05:21,333 --> 01:05:25,083
What would the best version of your lived

1901
01:05:25,083 --> 01:05:26,500
life look like in terms

1902
01:05:26,500 --> 01:05:27,791
of space contributions?

1903
01:05:28,250 --> 01:05:29,500
Like on your deathbed, what do you want

1904
01:05:29,500 --> 01:05:31,916
to say you did for humanity in space?

1905
01:05:32,708 --> 01:05:36,958
I want to say I had a part in enabling

1906
01:05:36,958 --> 01:05:38,875
humanity not to just go in the planetary,

1907
01:05:39,083 --> 01:05:40,791
but enabling humanity to go with the

1908
01:05:40,791 --> 01:05:43,750
standard. So when I remember, so I

1909
01:05:43,750 --> 01:05:46,500
remember back when I was a

1910
01:05:46,500 --> 01:05:47,750
teenager, I wrote a study from the

1911
01:05:47,750 --> 01:05:49,625
Brisbane of Planetary Society about the

1912
01:05:49,625 --> 01:05:50,500
two main technologies

1913
01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:53,125
needed for humanity. I think it was with

1914
01:05:53,125 --> 01:05:56,208
a project that was right. A study about

1915
01:05:56,208 --> 01:05:57,208
building, designing,

1916
01:05:57,416 --> 01:05:58,833
and launching a slower than light

1917
01:05:58,833 --> 01:06:00,041
Starship to a nearby star system or not star system.

1918
01:06:00,083 --> 01:06:04,000
Six light years away. And that study

1919
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:05,666
outlined two major areas of

1920
01:06:05,666 --> 01:06:06,916
development that humanity would

1921
01:06:06,916 --> 01:06:09,250
have to do in order to achieve that goal

1922
01:06:09,250 --> 01:06:10,166
of sending a Starship

1923
01:06:10,166 --> 01:06:11,541
to another star system.

1924
01:06:12,666 --> 01:06:13,875
One of them was by the propulsion

1925
01:06:13,875 --> 01:06:14,958
technology, like nuclear

1926
01:06:14,958 --> 01:06:16,708
fusion, nuclear propulsion,

1927
01:06:17,583 --> 01:06:20,500
but a research in that area. I am not a

1928
01:06:20,500 --> 01:06:21,916
physicist. I dropped out of school. I

1929
01:06:21,916 --> 01:06:22,458
can't help with that.

1930
01:06:22,625 --> 01:06:24,791
But second one is within reach. That

1931
01:06:24,791 --> 01:06:25,875
second one was by the

1932
01:06:25,875 --> 01:06:26,625
autonomy, by the data processing

1933
01:06:27,583 --> 01:06:30,791
better, like AI capabilities on board the

1934
01:06:30,791 --> 01:06:31,666
spacecraft that are

1935
01:06:31,666 --> 01:06:33,041
light hours, light days,

1936
01:06:33,041 --> 01:06:34,583
or like years away from Earth, but it

1937
01:06:34,583 --> 01:06:35,583
can't send all the data back

1938
01:06:35,583 --> 01:06:36,958
to Earth and have to adapt and

1939
01:06:36,958 --> 01:06:40,583
make decisions for the mission on the

1940
01:06:40,583 --> 01:06:42,708
spot, on the fly. And that

1941
01:06:42,708 --> 01:06:44,625
is the tech. That's where

1942
01:06:44,625 --> 01:06:46,833
it motivates me to build Atherrow. The

1943
01:06:46,833 --> 01:06:48,833
ability to building AI

1944
01:06:48,833 --> 01:06:50,125
hardware, to go into space.

1945
01:06:50,583 --> 01:06:52,250
We have to tell them how to do it. So you

1946
01:06:52,250 --> 01:06:53,333
can't really, yeah,

1947
01:06:54,125 --> 01:06:55,416
better downlink, even if it

1948
01:06:55,583 --> 01:06:57,375
does exist. That's not going to solve the

1949
01:06:57,375 --> 01:06:58,958
issue of spacecraft

1950
01:06:58,958 --> 01:07:01,541
being in the solar system or

1951
01:07:01,541 --> 01:07:03,041
spacecraft being light years away from

1952
01:07:03,041 --> 01:07:04,125
Earth and needing to send

1953
01:07:04,125 --> 01:07:06,208
it. No matter how good the

1954
01:07:06,208 --> 01:07:08,416
downlink is, these spacecraft will not

1955
01:07:08,416 --> 01:07:10,333
have access to that downlink. And that

1956
01:07:10,333 --> 01:07:11,375
spacecraft will need

1957
01:07:11,375 --> 01:07:13,000
their own data processing capabilities.

1958
01:07:13,291 --> 01:07:14,333
They will need their own AI

1959
01:07:14,333 --> 01:07:15,500
capabilities. So they will need

1960
01:07:15,500 --> 01:07:17,500
their own ability to learn from changing

1961
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:19,000
mission data and adapt to changing

1962
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:20,500
circumstances without

1963
01:07:20,625 --> 01:07:22,625
needing someone on Earth to send a

1964
01:07:22,625 --> 01:07:24,666
command back and forth. Because when

1965
01:07:24,666 --> 01:07:25,083
they're talking about

1966
01:07:25,375 --> 01:07:27,250
moving at such speeds or moving at such

1967
01:07:27,250 --> 01:07:28,708
distances, it's just

1968
01:07:28,708 --> 01:07:29,750
straight up impossible.

1969
01:07:31,083 --> 01:07:34,333
Yeah. And even if it was possible, that

1970
01:07:34,333 --> 01:07:36,041
reliability will never be

1971
01:07:36,041 --> 01:07:37,333
the same as edge compute,

1972
01:07:37,666 --> 01:07:39,958
making decisions on board, right? Yeah,

1973
01:07:39,958 --> 01:07:41,208
you need these

1974
01:07:41,208 --> 01:07:42,416
spacecraft to be what you think

1975
01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:45,000
for themselves. We're talking about

1976
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:46,375
sending spacecraft to

1977
01:07:46,375 --> 01:07:48,500
the outer solar system or

1978
01:07:48,625 --> 01:07:50,916
spacecraft to the inner center of space

1979
01:07:50,916 --> 01:07:52,041
or the star systems.

1980
01:07:52,500 --> 01:07:53,791
There is no substitute for

1981
01:07:53,875 --> 01:07:55,625
edge computing. There is no substitute to

1982
01:07:55,625 --> 01:07:56,791
having that competition

1983
01:07:56,791 --> 01:07:57,875
power, having that data

1984
01:07:57,875 --> 01:07:59,750
processing on board and having the

1985
01:07:59,750 --> 01:08:01,000
ability for these spacecraft

1986
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:02,791
to think and act by themselves.

1987
01:08:05,708 --> 01:08:09,041
So how would you, if I asked you what the

1988
01:08:09,041 --> 01:08:09,916
purpose of your life

1989
01:08:09,916 --> 01:08:11,916
is, what would you say?

1990
01:08:14,583 --> 01:08:17,000
Sure, it's related to space, but perhaps

1991
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:18,250
there is a more abstract

1992
01:08:18,250 --> 01:08:20,041
version. What does it look like?

1993
01:08:20,083 --> 01:08:21,916
Why do you exist?

1994
01:08:25,750 --> 01:08:27,250
That's a good question. I don't think

1995
01:08:27,250 --> 01:08:28,500
anyone can really answer that.

1996
01:08:29,375 --> 01:08:32,708
Well, personally, I just want to push

1997
01:08:32,708 --> 01:08:35,291
humanity to the edge as far

1998
01:08:35,291 --> 01:08:36,458
as possible. I want to push

1999
01:08:36,458 --> 01:08:38,208
humanity to new frontiers as far as

2000
01:08:38,208 --> 01:08:42,833
possible. And I want to see the first

2001
01:08:42,833 --> 01:08:44,000
pictures of another star

2002
01:08:44,083 --> 01:08:47,458
up close, not like from a telescope, like

2003
01:08:47,458 --> 01:08:49,958
up close, like a picture

2004
01:08:49,958 --> 01:08:52,541
of our own sun, or the first

2005
01:08:52,791 --> 01:08:55,500
picture of another planet in another

2006
01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:56,833
solar system before I die.

2007
01:08:57,500 --> 01:08:59,500
Right. And I don't want to do it

2008
01:08:59,500 --> 01:09:01,333
through a big telescope. I want to do it

2009
01:09:01,333 --> 01:09:02,583
because there's a Starship

2010
01:09:02,583 --> 01:09:04,041
there that's taking pictures

2011
01:09:04,333 --> 01:09:07,500
and sending pictures back. And given that

2012
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:09,208
these worlds tend to be

2013
01:09:09,208 --> 01:09:11,500
light years away, that means I

2014
01:09:11,541 --> 01:09:13,166
don't have much time, which means I have

2015
01:09:13,166 --> 01:09:14,041
to build on space today.

2016
01:09:16,791 --> 01:09:18,000
That sounds like a good enough reason to

2017
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,500
me. And do you think there

2018
01:09:20,500 --> 01:09:22,041
was another way to accomplish

2019
01:09:22,166 --> 01:09:25,375
your purpose outside of becoming a

2020
01:09:25,375 --> 01:09:27,041
founder? What made you become a founder?

2021
01:09:27,291 --> 01:09:28,166
How did you know that

2022
01:09:28,166 --> 01:09:30,541
was the point of higher leverage? What

2023
01:09:30,541 --> 01:09:32,541
was the calculation you did

2024
01:09:32,541 --> 01:09:34,916
in school? How did you decide

2025
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:38,416
on this path for those out there who want

2026
01:09:38,416 --> 01:09:40,500
to do tremendous impact

2027
01:09:40,500 --> 01:09:41,750
for humanity and in space?

2028
01:09:42,041 --> 01:09:43,666
Like why did you choose the founder path

2029
01:09:43,666 --> 01:09:44,625
when there are other ways

2030
01:09:44,625 --> 01:09:47,000
to create change and impact?

2031
01:09:47,833 --> 01:09:49,458
I didn't choose a founder path. I just

2032
01:09:49,458 --> 01:09:52,000
fell into it. And now I'm gonna be

2033
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:53,583
honest. So when I first,

2034
01:09:55,125 --> 01:09:58,708
I went to school on the Noah Rakeesh's

2035
01:09:58,708 --> 01:10:00,000
scholarship. So when

2036
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:01,166
virtual school hit, I hated

2037
01:10:01,291 --> 01:10:03,041
virtual school. So I dropped out. I

2038
01:10:03,041 --> 01:10:04,375
wanted to build stuff in my own hands.

2039
01:10:05,041 --> 01:10:06,125
And I got the founder bug.

2040
01:10:06,416 --> 01:10:07,583
And when you get the founder bug, it's

2041
01:10:07,583 --> 01:10:09,000
hard to break out because you

2042
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:10,291
have that level of autonomy,

2043
01:10:10,291 --> 01:10:11,541
that level of agency and

2044
01:10:11,541 --> 01:10:13,583
self-determination that you will never

2045
01:10:13,583 --> 01:10:17,125
get a big company or much less

2046
01:10:17,291 --> 01:10:24,041
in the military. And you get addicted to

2047
01:10:24,041 --> 01:10:25,916
that. And you kind of

2048
01:10:25,916 --> 01:10:26,916
realize, I don't want to do anything

2049
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:31,458
else except be a founder. So personally,

2050
01:10:32,125 --> 01:10:33,541
I don't know. It's not a good

2051
01:10:33,541 --> 01:10:36,166
answer. I never wanted to be

2052
01:10:36,166 --> 01:10:39,333
a founder. I just stumbled into it. And I

2053
01:10:39,333 --> 01:10:41,291
was just too stupid to back

2054
01:10:41,291 --> 01:10:43,583
out of it. It's like when the

2055
01:10:43,583 --> 01:10:45,333
dog bites onto something, the dog is

2056
01:10:45,333 --> 01:10:46,708
like, no, that's kind of

2057
01:10:46,708 --> 01:10:48,041
me, man. And you're one of the

2058
01:10:48,041 --> 01:10:49,583
smartest people I know. It sounds like

2059
01:10:49,583 --> 01:10:50,500
you just fell in love

2060
01:10:50,500 --> 01:10:51,750
with the agency and leverage.

2061
01:10:52,625 --> 01:10:54,958
Yeah, you kind of do. And to be honest,

2062
01:10:55,916 --> 01:10:56,625
if I could go back and

2063
01:10:56,625 --> 01:10:57,375
do it all over again,

2064
01:10:57,916 --> 01:10:59,291
I probably would have spent some time at

2065
01:10:59,291 --> 01:11:00,833
SpaceX and figured out

2066
01:11:00,833 --> 01:11:01,791
the ropes a bit more.

2067
01:11:03,083 --> 01:11:05,291
Like, have that low stage environment,

2068
01:11:05,750 --> 01:11:07,500
that tutorial environment

2069
01:11:07,500 --> 01:11:08,833
where I could figure things

2070
01:11:08,875 --> 01:11:11,375
out, get more experience in the industry.

2071
01:11:11,833 --> 01:11:12,750
And then I would have

2072
01:11:12,750 --> 01:11:13,583
jumped into being a founder.

2073
01:11:13,791 --> 01:11:15,000
So like jumping straight to being a

2074
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:15,875
founder directly. And that

2075
01:11:15,875 --> 01:11:16,875
would have saved me so much

2076
01:11:16,875 --> 01:11:19,916
more pain and so much more suffering than

2077
01:11:19,916 --> 01:11:21,583
this route that I took directly.

2078
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,208
Did dropping out of university ever bite

2079
01:11:25,208 --> 01:11:27,083
you in the ass building?

2080
01:11:27,083 --> 01:11:30,541
Absolutely. I can't get a normal job.

2081
01:11:31,250 --> 01:11:32,000
I've earned my boats.

2082
01:11:32,708 --> 01:11:33,875
Oh, you burned your boat. You can't get a

2083
01:11:33,875 --> 01:11:35,125
normal job. And I'm sure

2084
01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:36,500
you could get a normal job,

2085
01:11:36,500 --> 01:11:38,708
but like has like for a throw, like has

2086
01:11:38,708 --> 01:11:40,250
it held you back? Has it

2087
01:11:40,250 --> 01:11:41,875
like made it difficult to get

2088
01:11:42,291 --> 01:11:44,291
government like conversations or

2089
01:11:44,291 --> 01:11:46,875
contracts? Like, does it matter at all?

2090
01:11:47,458 --> 01:11:50,166
Not particularly. There is one aspect I

2091
01:11:50,166 --> 01:11:51,041
have to mention. So when

2092
01:11:51,041 --> 01:11:52,458
you work with NASA and you're

2093
01:11:52,458 --> 01:11:53,958
working with these big, more traditional

2094
01:11:53,958 --> 01:11:54,875
agencies like the

2095
01:11:54,875 --> 01:11:56,291
National Science Foundation,

2096
01:11:56,875 --> 01:11:58,666
if you're applying for a grant, it will

2097
01:11:58,666 --> 01:12:01,666
want to see PI or

2098
01:12:01,666 --> 01:12:02,875
principle like the main research

2099
01:12:02,875 --> 01:12:04,916
on the grant have a PhD or being a

2100
01:12:04,916 --> 01:12:06,625
project founder PhD, you can

2101
01:12:06,625 --> 01:12:07,666
just hire someone to do that.

2102
01:12:08,333 --> 01:12:10,125
You don't have to be the PI yourself.

2103
01:12:10,541 --> 01:12:13,208
Right. And it does bite you a

2104
01:12:13,208 --> 01:12:15,416
little bit. When we're going

2105
01:12:15,416 --> 01:12:17,000
out and raising venture funding from

2106
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:18,041
these more traditional things

2107
01:12:18,041 --> 01:12:19,541
like on the East Coast or in

2108
01:12:19,541 --> 01:12:22,166
Europe or, but in Silicon Valley or on

2109
01:12:22,166 --> 01:12:22,833
the West Coast, like

2110
01:12:22,833 --> 01:12:24,000
everyone's used to seeing the found

2111
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,375
like some dropout kids in the industry. I

2112
01:12:27,375 --> 01:12:28,541
think being a dropout

2113
01:12:28,541 --> 01:12:30,000
wouldn't have hurt me as much.

2114
01:12:30,291 --> 01:12:34,333
But I do think that not really, I think

2115
01:12:34,333 --> 01:12:35,750
what would help more is

2116
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:36,708
being able to get that

2117
01:12:36,791 --> 01:12:38,625
experience from a larger organization

2118
01:12:38,625 --> 01:12:41,000
like SpaceX, right? Or

2119
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:43,333
another like space company before I

2120
01:12:43,333 --> 01:12:45,500
jumped into being a space founder. And

2121
01:12:45,500 --> 01:12:47,666
that honestly is that was

2122
01:12:47,666 --> 01:12:48,458
a great save you a lot of

2123
01:12:48,458 --> 01:12:50,000
pain because you get that space work in a

2124
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:51,166
big organization, you

2125
01:12:51,166 --> 01:12:52,166
know how things are done,

2126
01:12:52,166 --> 01:12:53,625
you know, just potentially scale your own

2127
01:12:53,625 --> 01:12:55,541
company as it gets big. And

2128
01:12:55,541 --> 01:12:56,500
that's just that you also have

2129
01:12:56,500 --> 01:12:59,041
that net initial network of contacts you

2130
01:12:59,041 --> 01:13:00,833
can call upon for new hires or

2131
01:13:00,833 --> 01:13:02,250
fundraising or like,

2132
01:13:02,541 --> 01:13:04,416
when you need help with something that I

2133
01:13:04,416 --> 01:13:05,416
don't really have when you

2134
01:13:05,416 --> 01:13:06,416
just jump straight into being

2135
01:13:06,416 --> 01:13:09,750
a founder. So what advice would you give

2136
01:13:09,750 --> 01:13:14,000
young founders who are wanting to explore

2137
01:13:14,625 --> 01:13:17,208
the space frontier, wanting to get in on

2138
01:13:17,208 --> 01:13:19,291
the action and like help

2139
01:13:19,291 --> 01:13:20,708
answer the call to make

2140
01:13:20,708 --> 01:13:22,666
humanity interplanetary and interstellar.

2141
01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:24,625
What would you tell them?

2142
01:13:25,958 --> 01:13:27,208
Why do you want to jump in

2143
01:13:27,208 --> 01:13:29,250
on the action? No, I know it's I know

2144
01:13:29,250 --> 01:13:30,166
it's plenty of suffering.

2145
01:13:30,375 --> 01:13:31,500
And I've known you for a while.

2146
01:13:31,500 --> 01:13:33,541
I know it's hard. I know it's hard. My

2147
01:13:33,541 --> 01:13:34,916
advice would be to be

2148
01:13:34,916 --> 01:13:37,958
honest. Come on. If you have if you

2149
01:13:37,958 --> 01:13:40,125
if you had time, if you've spent time in

2150
01:13:40,125 --> 01:13:42,375
the space industry before understand,

2151
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:44,333
take understand this,

2152
01:13:44,583 --> 01:13:45,833
this is going to be one of the most

2153
01:13:45,833 --> 01:13:47,250
capital intensive industries

2154
01:13:47,250 --> 01:13:48,500
that you've ever worked in.

2155
01:13:48,500 --> 01:13:49,291
There's going to be one of those

2156
01:13:49,291 --> 01:13:51,333
industries you've ever worked in. And

2157
01:13:51,333 --> 01:13:52,833
working with these big

2158
01:13:52,833 --> 01:13:54,875
government customers like AFRL and NASA

2159
01:13:54,875 --> 01:13:56,333
and all, they're going to

2160
01:13:56,333 --> 01:13:57,083
make you want to kill like,

2161
01:13:57,125 --> 01:14:02,125
like rip your hair out in frustration,

2162
01:14:02,375 --> 01:14:03,583
right? Because that's

2163
01:14:03,583 --> 01:14:05,583
something how they work. They've

2164
01:14:05,583 --> 01:14:07,208
done it. They've done it this way for

2165
01:14:07,208 --> 01:14:08,291
decades, and they will not

2166
01:14:08,291 --> 01:14:10,375
change it for you. However,

2167
01:14:10,875 --> 01:14:12,833
I would argue that working in space is

2168
01:14:12,833 --> 01:14:14,125
one of the most rewarding industries

2169
01:14:14,125 --> 01:14:15,416
because, like I said,

2170
01:14:15,416 --> 01:14:17,208
you're doing something that no human has

2171
01:14:17,208 --> 01:14:18,333
ever done before.

2172
01:14:19,250 --> 01:14:21,000
Humanity really never has had an

2173
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:22,958
equivalent to the space industry before,

2174
01:14:22,958 --> 01:14:25,458
other than the exploration and discovery

2175
01:14:25,458 --> 01:14:26,625
era of the new world.

2176
01:14:27,125 --> 01:14:29,250
And when you work in space, you really

2177
01:14:29,250 --> 01:14:31,208
are one of these few pioneers that's like

2178
01:14:31,458 --> 01:14:33,083
buying chartering the ship and like

2179
01:14:33,083 --> 01:14:36,250
setting sail to like the West Indies or

2180
01:14:36,250 --> 01:14:37,708
and like trying to map

2181
01:14:37,708 --> 01:14:40,208
you know uncharted territory that hasn't

2182
01:14:40,208 --> 01:14:41,333
has never been done before.

2183
01:14:41,333 --> 01:14:42,750
You're not like the founder of

2184
01:14:42,750 --> 01:14:44,708
a GPT rapper startup with like plenty

2185
01:14:44,708 --> 01:14:45,583
other companies doing the

2186
01:14:45,583 --> 01:14:46,875
same thing. You're doing

2187
01:14:46,875 --> 01:14:49,416
something that is completely unique,

2188
01:14:50,083 --> 01:14:51,500
right? That's completely unique with

2189
01:14:51,500 --> 01:14:52,750
technology and code and

2190
01:14:52,916 --> 01:14:56,250
like stuff. Everything you do is utterly

2191
01:14:56,250 --> 01:14:57,791
novel, and that's something

2192
01:14:57,791 --> 01:14:58,583
you really have to understand.

2193
01:15:00,500 --> 01:15:02,875
And that also has pros and cons. The pros

2194
01:15:02,875 --> 01:15:04,833
are, well, it's fascinating.

2195
01:15:04,833 --> 01:15:05,833
It's easy to get new hires,

2196
01:15:06,041 --> 01:15:08,125
easy to get people inspired to join on

2197
01:15:08,125 --> 01:15:08,833
the mission, right?

2198
01:15:10,083 --> 01:15:11,416
There always will be a ton of

2199
01:15:11,416 --> 01:15:12,833
people that will want to join any deep

2200
01:15:12,833 --> 01:15:13,833
tech or space companies,

2201
01:15:13,833 --> 01:15:15,750
because they want to work with

2202
01:15:15,750 --> 01:15:19,958
you on the mission. You can also pay them

2203
01:15:19,958 --> 01:15:21,250
less, so to speak,

2204
01:15:21,250 --> 01:15:23,125
right? Hey, like I'm saying,

2205
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:27,625
if you want to get someone to optimize an

2206
01:15:27,625 --> 01:15:28,958
ad delivery algorithm,

2207
01:15:29,375 --> 01:15:30,500
you better bribe them into

2208
01:15:30,500 --> 01:15:32,458
doing it. But if you want to get someone

2209
01:15:32,458 --> 01:15:34,958
to join you on the crusade to expand

2210
01:15:34,958 --> 01:15:36,166
humanity or the world

2211
01:15:36,250 --> 01:15:38,541
and do inspiring stuff that no one has

2212
01:15:38,541 --> 01:15:39,875
ever done before, you don't

2213
01:15:39,875 --> 01:15:41,500
necessarily have to bribe them.

2214
01:15:41,500 --> 01:15:45,208
They intrinsically want to do it in spin.

2215
01:15:46,125 --> 01:15:48,041
And right, like the

2216
01:15:48,041 --> 01:15:50,208
salaries at SpaceX will never be

2217
01:15:50,208 --> 01:15:51,791
as high as the salaries at Meta. People

2218
01:15:51,791 --> 01:15:53,250
still want to work at SpaceX because

2219
01:15:53,250 --> 01:15:55,208
SpaceX inspires people

2220
01:15:55,208 --> 01:15:56,791
and people want to look at that rocket

2221
01:15:56,791 --> 01:15:58,541
flying, the star ship flying, and say,

2222
01:15:58,791 --> 01:16:00,000
yeah, I had a part of

2223
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:01,791
that. I helped build that. I helped make

2224
01:16:01,791 --> 01:16:02,833
that thing fly, and I

2225
01:16:02,833 --> 01:16:04,375
helped make humanity into a

2226
01:16:04,375 --> 01:16:06,500
multiplanetary species. And that same

2227
01:16:06,500 --> 01:16:07,958
thing goes in for the space

2228
01:16:07,958 --> 01:16:09,250
industry. You will have an easier

2229
01:16:09,291 --> 01:16:11,416
time hiring, but you will not have an

2230
01:16:11,416 --> 01:16:13,041
easier time fundraising. When

2231
01:16:13,041 --> 01:16:14,875
fundraising, most VCs are

2232
01:16:14,875 --> 01:16:16,958
straight up not going to understand the

2233
01:16:16,958 --> 01:16:17,625
industry that they're working

2234
01:16:17,625 --> 01:16:18,583
in. They will not understand

2235
01:16:18,583 --> 01:16:21,166
space. And since it gets so many pictures

2236
01:16:21,166 --> 01:16:22,000
every single day, they will

2237
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:23,208
not going to put in the time

2238
01:16:23,208 --> 01:16:25,416
to understand space. When you find a VC

2239
01:16:25,416 --> 01:16:26,333
that's willing to put in

2240
01:16:26,333 --> 01:16:27,916
the time to really study space

2241
01:16:27,916 --> 01:16:30,291
or studying the market, treasure that

2242
01:16:30,291 --> 01:16:32,125
relationship. That VC is absolutely

2243
01:16:32,125 --> 01:16:33,041
serious about investing.

2244
01:16:34,416 --> 01:16:36,750
And when it's back, like even if you have

2245
01:16:36,750 --> 01:16:37,791
a lot of traction, expect

2246
01:16:37,791 --> 01:16:39,166
a ton of those that don't

2247
01:16:39,208 --> 01:16:41,083
make any sense whatsoever. And most of

2248
01:16:41,083 --> 01:16:42,291
these notes are just going to be because

2249
01:16:42,291 --> 01:16:43,166
the VC is like, yeah,

2250
01:16:43,166 --> 01:16:45,041
I don't want to spend time learning about

2251
01:16:45,041 --> 01:16:46,666
entirely alien market that

2252
01:16:46,666 --> 01:16:47,875
has a very long return time

2253
01:16:47,875 --> 01:16:51,500
line, a very long CapEx expenditures. And

2254
01:16:51,500 --> 01:16:52,958
the other big thing is

2255
01:16:52,958 --> 01:16:56,375
launching a run this ad. It's

2256
01:16:56,375 --> 01:16:58,125
always going to be way more difficult

2257
01:16:58,125 --> 01:17:01,083
than anyone ever anticipates. Take the

2258
01:17:01,083 --> 01:17:02,083
cost, the operational

2259
01:17:02,166 --> 01:17:04,041
cost of any side of the mission, double

2260
01:17:04,041 --> 01:17:05,166
that, and that's probably

2261
01:17:05,166 --> 01:17:06,541
closer to the true budget.

2262
01:17:06,875 --> 01:17:10,375
And that's like the cap. It's not just

2263
01:17:10,375 --> 01:17:11,666
capital. It's just insane,

2264
01:17:11,666 --> 01:17:13,291
not just from the like running

2265
01:17:13,291 --> 01:17:14,666
and scheduling like paint around, super

2266
01:17:14,666 --> 01:17:15,583
by, but also from the

2267
01:17:15,583 --> 01:17:16,916
regulatory side, right? Because you

2268
01:17:16,916 --> 01:17:18,375
don't have to deal with SSE licensing,

2269
01:17:18,375 --> 01:17:19,250
have to do with ITU

2270
01:17:19,250 --> 01:17:20,458
licensing, have to deal with license,

2271
01:17:20,458 --> 01:17:22,208
never in the middle ground station, have

2272
01:17:22,208 --> 01:17:22,541
to deal with

2273
01:17:22,541 --> 01:17:23,916
accounting, grants and passes,

2274
01:17:24,375 --> 01:17:26,375
handling like yearly license renewals.

2275
01:17:26,708 --> 01:17:28,000
And it's just a huge thing. Yes.

2276
01:17:28,916 --> 01:17:30,666
You guys launched your last satellite,

2277
01:17:30,666 --> 01:17:32,041
your first satellite from

2278
01:17:32,041 --> 01:17:33,833
your studio apartment, right?

2279
01:17:34,541 --> 01:17:36,125
We're operating there from a studio

2280
01:17:36,125 --> 01:17:37,041
apartment and the basement.

2281
01:17:37,791 --> 01:17:39,916
Oh boy. There you go. So, you know, they

2282
01:17:39,916 --> 01:17:42,125
can do it. Any other advice? Like,

2283
01:17:42,625 --> 01:17:44,958
any other advice you'd give somebody like

2284
01:17:44,958 --> 01:17:46,750
who's like 20 years old,

2285
01:17:46,958 --> 01:17:48,208
dropping out of school to

2286
01:17:48,500 --> 01:17:51,208
start like their own space company and

2287
01:17:51,208 --> 01:17:52,291
like, it's already certain they want to

2288
01:17:52,291 --> 01:17:53,041
do it. We don't need

2289
01:17:53,041 --> 01:17:55,500
to scare them away. Like, well, anything

2290
01:17:55,500 --> 01:17:56,750
else you'd tell them to

2291
01:17:56,750 --> 01:17:57,958
increase their odds of success,

2292
01:17:58,375 --> 01:17:59,208
perhaps something tactical.

2293
01:18:04,958 --> 01:18:06,791
I mean, it's hard to say. I personally

2294
01:18:06,791 --> 01:18:08,916
don't know any much good

2295
01:18:08,916 --> 01:18:10,125
advice to give them. I mean,

2296
01:18:10,458 --> 01:18:12,250
if I could go back, I'd do it a bit

2297
01:18:12,250 --> 01:18:14,958
differently, right? I

2298
01:18:14,958 --> 01:18:16,541
will say this, startups die,

2299
01:18:16,833 --> 01:18:18,500
startups tend to die not because you run

2300
01:18:18,500 --> 01:18:19,500
out of money, but because

2301
01:18:19,500 --> 01:18:20,291
they tend to run out more

2302
01:18:20,291 --> 01:18:22,666
route. Right. Space is one of those

2303
01:18:22,666 --> 01:18:28,875
industries where shit is like, you will

2304
01:18:28,875 --> 01:18:30,125
probably, more space

2305
01:18:30,166 --> 01:18:31,583
companies that probably run out more

2306
01:18:31,583 --> 01:18:34,500
routes are extremely

2307
01:18:34,500 --> 01:18:37,458
important. Make sure you don't burn out.

2308
01:18:37,875 --> 01:18:41,333
Yeah. I mean, beyond that, I mean, I

2309
01:18:41,333 --> 01:18:44,208
already know like it's really, you fuck

2310
01:18:44,208 --> 01:18:45,208
around and you find out

2311
01:18:45,208 --> 01:18:46,708
and you find out space is a very hard

2312
01:18:46,708 --> 01:18:48,708
industry and you just like have to just

2313
01:18:48,708 --> 01:18:49,791
keep dealing with it.

2314
01:18:49,791 --> 01:18:52,958
Just keep getting back up. I mean, I

2315
01:18:52,958 --> 01:18:53,708
don't know what else to say.

2316
01:18:55,083 --> 01:18:56,583
Yeah. The founder journey is just getting

2317
01:18:56,583 --> 01:18:58,000
punched in the face and getting back up.

2318
01:18:58,458 --> 01:19:00,083
Although I imagine the punches are a

2319
01:19:00,083 --> 01:19:01,125
little harder and the

2320
01:19:01,125 --> 01:19:02,375
cost to get back up is also a

2321
01:19:02,375 --> 01:19:03,875
little harder. How do you make the

2322
01:19:03,875 --> 01:19:05,875
founder grind sustainable for yourself?

2323
01:19:05,875 --> 01:19:07,208
Like how do you keep

2324
01:19:07,416 --> 01:19:08,666
waking up in the mornings, getting

2325
01:19:08,666 --> 01:19:10,375
punched in the face and then

2326
01:19:10,375 --> 01:19:11,583
waking up with a smile again

2327
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:13,500
to do it all again the next day? Like

2328
01:19:13,500 --> 01:19:15,291
what, how do you refill your

2329
01:19:15,291 --> 01:19:17,916
cup? How do you stay with it?

2330
01:19:19,208 --> 01:19:21,416
I don't necessarily do it because I enjoy

2331
01:19:21,416 --> 01:19:23,541
it. I do it because I

2332
01:19:23,541 --> 01:19:25,750
think I'm right. I think

2333
01:19:26,125 --> 01:19:27,750
that space confused won't be important. I

2334
01:19:27,750 --> 01:19:29,125
think AI hardware in space

2335
01:19:29,125 --> 01:19:30,083
won't be important. I think

2336
01:19:30,416 --> 01:19:32,708
that I don't think there are other

2337
01:19:32,708 --> 01:19:34,000
legitimate players in our

2338
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,083
space. I really understand the

2339
01:19:36,083 --> 01:19:38,041
implications that this has for humanity,

2340
01:19:38,458 --> 01:19:39,958
humanity as a whole, right?

2341
01:19:40,416 --> 01:19:41,666
Being able to do that process

2342
01:19:41,666 --> 01:19:43,000
and being able to make space business

2343
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:44,708
autonomous within like in the

2344
01:19:44,708 --> 01:19:46,000
far reaches of the solar system

2345
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:49,500
or beyond. So I do it because I don't see

2346
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:51,291
any other choice. And when you're a

2347
01:19:51,291 --> 01:19:52,208
founder, you don't do it

2348
01:19:52,250 --> 01:19:53,416
because you enjoy it. You do it because

2349
01:19:53,416 --> 01:19:54,208
that's your responsibility.

2350
01:19:54,875 --> 01:19:55,458
And you have to understand

2351
01:19:55,458 --> 01:19:59,041
like this, it's not, it's discipline.

2352
01:19:59,458 --> 01:20:00,625
It's discipline. That's the most

2353
01:20:00,625 --> 01:20:03,083
important trait of any

2354
01:20:03,458 --> 01:20:06,250
founder, right? You don't, you never do

2355
01:20:06,250 --> 01:20:07,333
something because you enjoy

2356
01:20:07,333 --> 01:20:08,333
it. You do it because you have

2357
01:20:08,333 --> 01:20:11,541
to, because there's people counting on

2358
01:20:11,541 --> 01:20:13,333
you and there is no one

2359
01:20:13,333 --> 01:20:14,916
else, the buck stopped at you.

2360
01:20:14,916 --> 01:20:16,500
There's no one else to pick up the stack.

2361
01:20:17,333 --> 01:20:19,000
And ultimately you either

2362
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:20,416
have that internal discipline

2363
01:20:20,625 --> 01:20:23,000
to like wake up and just do it. And that

2364
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:24,291
is like, you can hate it,

2365
01:20:24,291 --> 01:20:25,333
but you still have to do it.

2366
01:20:26,125 --> 01:20:27,583
And you don't have the discipline to do

2367
01:20:27,583 --> 01:20:29,000
that or you don't. And if

2368
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:29,625
you don't want to do something

2369
01:20:29,833 --> 01:20:32,250
to do that, then quite frankly, you

2370
01:20:32,250 --> 01:20:35,416
shouldn't be a founder, right? Right. But

2371
01:20:35,416 --> 01:20:36,625
how do you keep going?

2372
01:20:37,041 --> 01:20:39,416
Like, how do you make sure like even you

2373
01:20:39,416 --> 01:20:40,791
have to do like certain

2374
01:20:40,791 --> 01:20:41,833
things outside of work,

2375
01:20:42,083 --> 01:20:44,500
like exercise, for example, or more

2376
01:20:44,500 --> 01:20:46,750
sustainable work habits or, you know,

2377
01:20:46,750 --> 01:20:47,875
having a time that you

2378
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:49,750
like make sure to close the computer at

2379
01:20:49,750 --> 01:20:51,375
the end of the day to, you know, make

2380
01:20:51,375 --> 01:20:52,458
time for yourself or

2381
01:20:52,458 --> 01:20:54,666
your significant other. Like are there,

2382
01:20:54,666 --> 01:20:55,958
are there things that you

2383
01:20:55,958 --> 01:20:58,375
employ to make this a multi,

2384
01:20:58,625 --> 01:21:01,541
this potentially multi-decade endeavor or

2385
01:21:01,541 --> 01:21:02,375
lifelong endeavor,

2386
01:21:02,375 --> 01:21:04,333
something you can sustain

2387
01:21:05,375 --> 01:21:07,000
even with the excesses of the founder

2388
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:09,541
workload? I mean, of course

2389
01:21:09,541 --> 01:21:10,666
you make time for yourself to

2390
01:21:10,666 --> 01:21:12,958
work out, right? You spend time with your

2391
01:21:12,958 --> 01:21:13,583
friends, you spend

2392
01:21:13,583 --> 01:21:14,708
time with people who are

2393
01:21:14,958 --> 01:21:18,333
close and important to you. And like you

2394
01:21:18,333 --> 01:21:19,708
spend time, you

2395
01:21:19,708 --> 01:21:22,708
decompress, take some time meditate,

2396
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,708
decompress at the end of every day. But

2397
01:21:24,708 --> 01:21:27,125
like that's just everyone has

2398
01:21:27,125 --> 01:21:28,208
to do that, right? Like even

2399
01:21:28,416 --> 01:21:30,958
investment banker New York has to do

2400
01:21:30,958 --> 01:21:32,625
that. Even an off, even a software

2401
01:21:32,625 --> 01:21:33,875
engineer at Apple has to do

2402
01:21:33,875 --> 01:21:36,041
that. Anyone that has a high stress, high

2403
01:21:36,041 --> 01:21:38,083
long hour role has to do

2404
01:21:38,083 --> 01:21:39,375
that. There's nothing unique

2405
01:21:39,375 --> 01:21:40,666
about doing that as a founder versus

2406
01:21:40,666 --> 01:21:42,708
doing that as like investment

2407
01:21:42,708 --> 01:21:44,208
banker or a software engineer.

2408
01:21:44,750 --> 01:21:47,916
But it just has a founder to stakes or

2409
01:21:47,916 --> 01:21:49,041
much higher. And I think

2410
01:21:49,041 --> 01:21:50,208
at some points, a founder,

2411
01:21:50,625 --> 01:21:52,125
some parts of the mind breaks and you

2412
01:21:52,125 --> 01:21:53,833
just the risk of like, no

2413
01:21:53,833 --> 01:21:55,000
longer make the risk of war

2414
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:56,791
calculation the same way that some normal

2415
01:21:56,791 --> 01:21:58,000
person does. And you're

2416
01:21:58,000 --> 01:21:58,916
just like, fuck, we just keep

2417
01:21:58,916 --> 01:22:02,583
doing it. Right. And like the way I, the

2418
01:22:02,583 --> 01:22:04,000
joke I always like to make

2419
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:06,083
is the line between being

2420
01:22:06,083 --> 01:22:08,291
a founder and being a chronic gambling

2421
01:22:08,291 --> 01:22:10,750
addict is very thing, probably

2422
01:22:10,750 --> 01:22:12,125
non-existent. Like as a

2423
01:22:12,166 --> 01:22:14,416
founder, you just kind of are a chronic

2424
01:22:14,416 --> 01:22:17,625
gambling addict. And the,

2425
01:22:18,041 --> 01:22:20,375
and this means you just don't

2426
01:22:20,458 --> 01:22:22,708
process risk the same way that other

2427
01:22:22,708 --> 01:22:24,875
people do. And you're just

2428
01:22:24,875 --> 01:22:26,416
like, you know what, like we have

2429
01:22:26,416 --> 01:22:29,458
no path. We just keep doing it. And this,

2430
01:22:29,458 --> 01:22:31,583
you need to, you need to

2431
01:22:31,583 --> 01:22:33,000
kind of have that broken in you

2432
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:36,083
to be a founder. And the more risky, the

2433
01:22:36,083 --> 01:22:37,041
more dangerous, more

2434
01:22:37,041 --> 01:22:38,250
high stakes industry is,

2435
01:22:38,500 --> 01:22:42,416
the more you kind of need that, that like

2436
01:22:42,416 --> 01:22:44,583
kind of, yeah, like fuck it.

2437
01:22:44,833 --> 01:22:46,416
I'm not, I don't care about

2438
01:22:46,416 --> 01:22:47,791
the risks, risks, you know, I'm just

2439
01:22:47,791 --> 01:22:48,750
going to go ahead and do it

2440
01:22:48,750 --> 01:22:49,958
because I'm just going to win.

2441
01:22:50,208 --> 01:22:55,000
And I don't think about it. I know

2442
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:55,708
exactly what you're talking

2443
01:22:55,708 --> 01:22:58,375
about. Like, if you're trying to

2444
01:22:58,375 --> 01:23:00,875
be rational and make being a founder make

2445
01:23:00,875 --> 01:23:03,208
sense on paper, it never does. It

2446
01:23:03,208 --> 01:23:04,125
probably something else.

2447
01:23:04,958 --> 01:23:06,916
Probably, probably just

2448
01:23:06,916 --> 01:23:08,541
buy a lottery ticket instead.

2449
01:23:09,500 --> 01:23:11,541
Yeah. Being a founder is never a rational

2450
01:23:11,541 --> 01:23:13,041
choice. You're talking

2451
01:23:13,041 --> 01:23:14,666
about like, for a lot of people,

2452
01:23:14,666 --> 01:23:16,083
you're talking about like leaving a

2453
01:23:16,083 --> 01:23:17,791
comfortable life track where

2454
01:23:17,791 --> 01:23:19,125
you could be making six figures

2455
01:23:19,208 --> 01:23:21,500
easily, have seven figure net worth by

2456
01:23:21,500 --> 01:23:23,541
the time you're 30, retire early by the

2457
01:23:23,541 --> 01:23:24,125
time you're like 40,

2458
01:23:24,958 --> 01:23:28,083
to do something where you eat less or

2459
01:23:28,083 --> 01:23:31,791
potentially unemployable for years, or

2460
01:23:31,791 --> 01:23:32,416
essentially depending

2461
01:23:33,375 --> 01:23:35,500
on the whims and wishes of external

2462
01:23:35,500 --> 01:23:37,458
people who don't really have

2463
01:23:37,458 --> 01:23:38,916
that stake in you the same way

2464
01:23:38,916 --> 01:23:42,333
that like your employer would. And just

2465
01:23:42,333 --> 01:23:43,375
like constantly just get

2466
01:23:43,375 --> 01:23:44,833
beaten up over and over and

2467
01:23:44,833 --> 01:23:47,125
over and essentially have the buck stop

2468
01:23:47,125 --> 01:23:48,000
with you because there is

2469
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:50,791
no, like, if you're a software

2470
01:23:50,791 --> 01:23:53,250
engineer, a big company and something

2471
01:23:53,250 --> 01:23:54,708
breaks, right? You can just

2472
01:23:54,708 --> 01:23:56,083
come back, coming back in on

2473
01:23:56,083 --> 01:23:58,125
Monday and fix it and everything's going

2474
01:23:58,125 --> 01:23:59,333
to be fine. The buck doesn't

2475
01:23:59,333 --> 01:24:00,375
stop with you. The boss has

2476
01:24:00,416 --> 01:24:01,666
it handled. Some other team has it

2477
01:24:01,666 --> 01:24:02,583
handled. The support team has

2478
01:24:02,583 --> 01:24:03,833
it handled. If you're a founder

2479
01:24:03,833 --> 01:24:05,541
and something breaks, you have to fix it

2480
01:24:05,541 --> 01:24:06,666
right now. There's no

2481
01:24:06,666 --> 01:24:08,958
support team. There is no manager.

2482
01:24:09,291 --> 01:24:11,625
There is no engineer that can call on. It

2483
01:24:11,625 --> 01:24:17,750
is up to you. Yeah. That's

2484
01:24:17,750 --> 01:24:19,625
the grind. That's what we all

2485
01:24:19,625 --> 01:24:21,875
signed up for. I imagine it's a little

2486
01:24:21,875 --> 01:24:23,958
more intensive. The thing

2487
01:24:23,958 --> 01:24:25,583
that breaks is flying in

2488
01:24:25,625 --> 01:24:27,416
space. I imagine the stake is a little

2489
01:24:27,416 --> 01:24:30,500
higher than the typical SaaS startup.

2490
01:24:31,083 --> 01:24:33,125
We still have software tools and stuff

2491
01:24:33,125 --> 01:24:36,541
like that. I mean, every company relies

2492
01:24:36,541 --> 01:24:37,666
on software very much

2493
01:24:37,666 --> 01:24:40,500
heavily nowadays. And for everything that

2494
01:24:40,500 --> 01:24:41,666
gets sent into space,

2495
01:24:41,666 --> 01:24:42,458
we're talking with like

2496
01:24:42,625 --> 01:24:44,875
thousands of hours of work behind every

2497
01:24:44,875 --> 01:24:45,833
last little article.

2498
01:24:46,916 --> 01:24:47,916
What's the time that made

2499
01:24:47,916 --> 01:24:48,958
you closest to giving up?

2500
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:56,083
I know you'd never give up, Ed. That's

2501
01:24:56,083 --> 01:25:00,166
why I said closest. You're unstoppable.

2502
01:25:02,541 --> 01:25:04,083
In space, it's going to be fundraising,

2503
01:25:04,541 --> 01:25:05,500
right? Because you're

2504
01:25:05,500 --> 01:25:06,916
talking about tons and tons and

2505
01:25:06,916 --> 01:25:09,000
tons of notes from VCs. I don't believe

2506
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:09,791
in industry. I don't

2507
01:25:09,791 --> 01:25:10,416
believe in efficient,

2508
01:25:11,208 --> 01:25:13,166
who don't understand the industry and

2509
01:25:13,166 --> 01:25:14,083
don't care enough about

2510
01:25:14,083 --> 01:25:14,875
the industry. Quite frankly,

2511
01:25:14,875 --> 01:25:20,000
to learn about it. Morale always seems to

2512
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:20,958
alone doing fundraising.

2513
01:25:21,500 --> 01:25:22,875
Because not only are you

2514
01:25:22,875 --> 01:25:24,291
getting punched in the face, you're

2515
01:25:24,291 --> 01:25:25,166
talking to people that you

2516
01:25:25,166 --> 01:25:26,291
respect and having these people

2517
01:25:26,291 --> 01:25:27,416
say, "Yeah, we don't believe in it. We

2518
01:25:27,416 --> 01:25:27,916
don't believe in your

2519
01:25:27,916 --> 01:25:28,625
vision. We don't believe in

2520
01:25:28,625 --> 01:25:29,500
the business. We aren't going to give you

2521
01:25:29,500 --> 01:25:30,916
any money." And at the

2522
01:25:30,916 --> 01:25:31,625
same time, to look at the

2523
01:25:31,625 --> 01:25:33,750
own runway, dwindling down constantly,

2524
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:35,916
week by week, month by month, you're

2525
01:25:35,916 --> 01:25:36,750
like, "Oh, shit. Well,

2526
01:25:36,958 --> 01:25:38,500
maybe this isn't going to work out. Maybe

2527
01:25:38,500 --> 01:25:40,375
it's time to look at something else or

2528
01:25:40,375 --> 01:25:40,958
pivot or something."

2529
01:25:41,916 --> 01:25:44,291
So fundraising, honestly, is a game of

2530
01:25:44,291 --> 01:25:46,416
chicken, right? Looking at

2531
01:25:46,416 --> 01:25:47,458
VCs, and we're still looking

2532
01:25:47,458 --> 01:25:50,166
at you and the first person to blink, it

2533
01:25:50,166 --> 01:25:52,000
just gets fucked. That's

2534
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:53,541
the way I see it. The other

2535
01:25:55,208 --> 01:26:00,083
time, I mean, to be honest, everything is

2536
01:26:00,083 --> 01:26:01,458
solvable, giving enough runway,

2537
01:26:03,125 --> 01:26:04,833
and enough like calend, everything is

2538
01:26:04,833 --> 01:26:08,375
solvable. But fundraising is one thing,

2539
01:26:08,500 --> 01:26:10,208
is one existential thing for every Deep

2540
01:26:10,208 --> 01:26:10,791
Tech company that

2541
01:26:10,791 --> 01:26:11,750
can't really get away from.

2542
01:26:12,500 --> 01:26:15,208
And it's one thing that will make every

2543
01:26:15,208 --> 01:26:15,916
Deep Tech founder

2544
01:26:15,916 --> 01:26:18,250
absolutely hate their lives. Because

2545
01:26:18,250 --> 01:26:19,291
they're talking to people that don't

2546
01:26:19,291 --> 01:26:20,375
understand you, don't understand the

2547
01:26:20,375 --> 01:26:21,083
industry, don't understand

2548
01:26:21,083 --> 01:26:24,166
the passion for it, and don't really care

2549
01:26:24,166 --> 01:26:25,916
in particular about what

2550
01:26:25,916 --> 01:26:27,000
you're building outside

2551
01:26:27,125 --> 01:26:29,166
of the whatever external markers or

2552
01:26:29,166 --> 01:26:31,166
prestige or status symbols that they

2553
01:26:31,166 --> 01:26:33,583
might have. And this is

2554
01:26:33,833 --> 01:26:36,625
something that, I mean, we've talked to

2555
01:26:36,625 --> 01:26:37,500
any Deep Tech founder and

2556
01:26:37,500 --> 01:26:38,875
asked him, "What's your least

2557
01:26:38,875 --> 01:26:40,666
favorite part of the job?" Everyone's

2558
01:26:40,666 --> 01:26:42,208
going to say fundraising. And to be

2559
01:26:42,208 --> 01:26:43,416
honest, if you enjoy

2560
01:26:43,416 --> 01:26:46,250
fundraising, if fundraising... I'm a

2561
01:26:46,250 --> 01:26:48,166
contributor, and I think fundraising is

2562
01:26:48,166 --> 01:26:49,791
the hardest. I think

2563
01:26:49,791 --> 01:26:51,250
fundraising is the easiest part of

2564
01:26:51,250 --> 01:26:53,166
showing the business. You are

2565
01:26:53,166 --> 01:26:54,416
probably just going to waste

2566
01:26:54,541 --> 01:26:57,541
all your money in this time. We've seen

2567
01:26:57,541 --> 01:26:58,458
so many stories of

2568
01:26:58,458 --> 01:27:00,041
overfunded startups during the

2569
01:27:00,166 --> 01:27:02,541
zerp era that just raised a ton of money,

2570
01:27:02,791 --> 01:27:03,875
never had any customers die.

2571
01:27:04,541 --> 01:27:06,375
And I think the attitude of,

2572
01:27:06,375 --> 01:27:07,458
"Hey, fundraising should be the easiest

2573
01:27:07,458 --> 01:27:08,916
part of doing the startup." That's

2574
01:27:08,916 --> 01:27:10,125
fucking... That's false.

2575
01:27:10,541 --> 01:27:11,833
That should not be the easiest part. The

2576
01:27:11,833 --> 01:27:13,125
easiest part should be studying to

2577
01:27:13,125 --> 01:27:13,958
customers because you

2578
01:27:13,958 --> 01:27:16,250
understand what the customers want. The

2579
01:27:16,250 --> 01:27:17,875
easiest part should be getting the

2580
01:27:17,875 --> 01:27:18,541
customers to agree to

2581
01:27:18,541 --> 01:27:20,458
use your product. If that is not the

2582
01:27:20,458 --> 01:27:22,000
easiest part of what you're doing, you

2583
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:23,083
either are not building

2584
01:27:23,083 --> 01:27:24,750
something that customers property want,

2585
01:27:25,041 --> 01:27:27,541
or not building to the needs of the

2586
01:27:27,541 --> 01:27:29,416
industry, or you are

2587
01:27:29,458 --> 01:27:31,958
just wasting everyone's money in time.

2588
01:27:33,083 --> 01:27:35,416
That's a very interesting take, Ed. I

2589
01:27:35,416 --> 01:27:35,916
haven't thought about

2590
01:27:35,916 --> 01:27:38,625
it that way. I haven't really given it

2591
01:27:38,625 --> 01:27:40,000
too, too much thought. I like rank

2592
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:41,083
ordering the hardest

2593
01:27:41,083 --> 01:27:43,541
versus easiest. I'm a little too busy

2594
01:27:43,541 --> 01:27:44,291
getting punched in the

2595
01:27:44,291 --> 01:27:46,416
face on the regular. Maybe one

2596
01:27:46,416 --> 01:27:48,416
day I'll stack rank them. I think which

2597
01:27:48,416 --> 01:27:52,833
punches are at least the most. Yeah, but

2598
01:27:52,833 --> 01:27:53,916
that's an interesting

2599
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:59,000
take. Ed, when it comes to the kind of

2600
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:00,625
impact you want to have in your lifetime,

2601
01:28:01,625 --> 01:28:04,083
you must be trying to build a lasting

2602
01:28:04,083 --> 01:28:06,791
company. How do you go

2603
01:28:06,791 --> 01:28:08,625
about building a lasting company

2604
01:28:09,208 --> 01:28:12,541
as a missionary that's different,

2605
01:28:12,541 --> 01:28:13,958
fundamentally different than a

2606
01:28:13,958 --> 01:28:15,291
mercenary trying to solve the

2607
01:28:15,291 --> 01:28:17,416
same problem? Then again, maybe a

2608
01:28:17,416 --> 01:28:18,166
mercenary would never

2609
01:28:18,166 --> 01:28:20,000
enter such a difficult space,

2610
01:28:20,541 --> 01:28:23,541
but how are you building a lasting

2611
01:28:23,541 --> 01:28:25,041
company? How are you doing that?

2612
01:28:29,208 --> 01:28:30,875
That's a bit of an early question to ask,

2613
01:28:31,166 --> 01:28:31,791
considering that we

2614
01:28:31,791 --> 01:28:32,875
are only less than two

2615
01:28:32,875 --> 01:28:34,416
years into the German beta world.

2616
01:28:35,166 --> 01:28:35,541
Building the

2617
01:28:35,541 --> 01:28:36,750
foundation, though, aren't you?

2618
01:28:37,375 --> 01:28:38,625
Are we going to come back to that

2619
01:28:38,625 --> 01:28:39,541
question on another

2620
01:28:39,541 --> 01:28:40,666
time when we have you back?

2621
01:28:41,958 --> 01:28:43,291
Give me a year, and I'll give you a

2622
01:28:43,291 --> 01:28:46,250
better answer. For now,

2623
01:28:46,250 --> 01:28:49,000
you never know if a company's

2624
01:28:49,041 --> 01:28:51,750
lasting. In my opinion, one can never

2625
01:28:51,750 --> 01:28:53,333
call a company lasting or

2626
01:28:53,333 --> 01:28:54,625
like race gets started on

2627
01:28:54,625 --> 01:28:56,333
making a company lasting until they raise

2628
01:28:56,333 --> 01:28:57,708
the first growth round,

2629
01:28:57,708 --> 01:28:58,750
right? Maybe a series A,

2630
01:28:58,958 --> 01:29:01,208
series B, or so on. The reason being, if

2631
01:29:01,208 --> 01:29:02,416
it were that early and

2632
01:29:02,416 --> 01:29:03,083
you had someone found

2633
01:29:03,083 --> 01:29:05,583
like full product market fit and still

2634
01:29:05,583 --> 01:29:06,958
are like still in the

2635
01:29:06,958 --> 01:29:08,500
filling out stages of the market,

2636
01:29:08,500 --> 01:29:09,916
like figuring out like revenue, figuring

2637
01:29:09,916 --> 01:29:10,500
out go-to-market

2638
01:29:10,500 --> 01:29:11,916
pipelines and all that solidified,

2639
01:29:12,291 --> 01:29:13,833
it's hard for me to determine that, hey,

2640
01:29:13,833 --> 01:29:14,541
we want to make this company

2641
01:29:14,541 --> 01:29:16,125
lasting. Everyone says, hey,

2642
01:29:16,166 --> 01:29:19,000
I want to build a Dashing company. And

2643
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:21,416
sometimes it happens. Sometimes it

2644
01:29:21,416 --> 01:29:22,791
doesn't. Look at Salesforce.

2645
01:29:23,041 --> 01:29:24,875
Like when Mark Benioff decided to build

2646
01:29:24,875 --> 01:29:26,125
Salesforce, it's like what,

2647
01:29:26,125 --> 01:29:27,541
a CRM for sales businesses,

2648
01:29:27,875 --> 01:29:29,875
right? Like the gathering, organizing

2649
01:29:29,875 --> 01:29:32,958
that. He probably imagined it to be a

2650
01:29:32,958 --> 01:29:33,666
gimmick. He probably

2651
01:29:33,666 --> 01:29:35,500
didn't imagine Salesforce to be a Dashing

2652
01:29:35,500 --> 01:29:36,458
generational company

2653
01:29:36,458 --> 01:29:37,500
that tightened the industry

2654
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:42,083
that it is today. Look at space. When

2655
01:29:42,083 --> 01:29:44,916
look out at space companies that were

2656
01:29:44,916 --> 01:29:45,250
trying to build like

2657
01:29:45,291 --> 01:29:47,125
launch vehicles or salad buses and stuff

2658
01:29:47,125 --> 01:29:48,458
like that, they probably

2659
01:29:48,458 --> 01:29:49,541
thought like, Hey, we want,

2660
01:29:49,833 --> 01:29:51,625
this is hard. This is hard tech. This is

2661
01:29:51,625 --> 01:29:52,625
deep research that we're

2662
01:29:52,625 --> 01:29:53,583
doing here. We're going to

2663
01:29:53,583 --> 01:29:55,333
make this a generational Dashing company.

2664
01:29:55,791 --> 01:29:56,708
And look at how many of

2665
01:29:56,708 --> 01:29:57,875
them are still left today.

2666
01:29:57,875 --> 01:29:59,333
There are still left operations today.

2667
01:29:59,333 --> 01:30:00,333
And you'll see like most of

2668
01:30:00,333 --> 01:30:02,208
them don't exist anymore. So

2669
01:30:03,041 --> 01:30:04,416
building a Dashing company, I don't

2670
01:30:04,416 --> 01:30:05,208
really think matters

2671
01:30:05,208 --> 01:30:06,125
what industry you're in.

2672
01:30:06,583 --> 01:30:08,125
I really do think this happens to be

2673
01:30:08,125 --> 01:30:10,208
right time, right place, lots of luck,

2674
01:30:10,541 --> 01:30:12,958
and not fucking up the

2675
01:30:12,958 --> 01:30:14,625
early stages when you get to Series A,

2676
01:30:14,625 --> 01:30:16,166
Series B, as well as not running out

2677
01:30:16,166 --> 01:30:17,708
morale. Morale is the

2678
01:30:17,708 --> 01:30:19,833
biggest, most important thing. The

2679
01:30:19,833 --> 01:30:21,708
biggest thing we've seen, I personally

2680
01:30:21,708 --> 01:30:22,625
see from companies that

2681
01:30:22,625 --> 01:30:25,750
get acquired already or don't really like

2682
01:30:25,750 --> 01:30:27,125
skip become like a Dashing

2683
01:30:27,125 --> 01:30:28,541
type of industry is it's so

2684
01:30:28,541 --> 01:30:33,375
easy to give up. When you get offered,

2685
01:30:33,375 --> 01:30:35,541
let's say $100 million or $200 million

2686
01:30:35,541 --> 01:30:37,250
personal to you as a

2687
01:30:37,250 --> 01:30:38,375
founder, as part of like a billion dollar

2688
01:30:38,375 --> 01:30:40,041
exit, it's kind of hard to

2689
01:30:40,041 --> 01:30:40,791
say, yeah, I'm going to keep

2690
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:42,708
getting punched in the face all the time.

2691
01:30:42,708 --> 01:30:43,875
I'm not going to take this

2692
01:30:43,875 --> 01:30:45,875
$100 million, $200 million,

2693
01:30:45,875 --> 01:30:47,833
this generational wealth that can change

2694
01:30:47,833 --> 01:30:49,333
the lives of you, everyone,

2695
01:30:49,583 --> 01:30:50,958
not just you, but everyone

2696
01:30:50,958 --> 01:30:53,875
around you and your family. And not just

2697
01:30:53,875 --> 01:30:54,583
that, like when your family

2698
01:30:54,583 --> 01:30:55,333
knows about, they're going

2699
01:30:55,333 --> 01:30:56,500
to be pressuring you to take that $100

2700
01:30:56,500 --> 01:30:57,666
million because they're

2701
01:30:57,666 --> 01:30:59,291
going to be like that. Like you

2702
01:30:59,291 --> 01:31:01,500
already have taken such a huge risk. Why

2703
01:31:01,500 --> 01:31:02,750
keep pushing your luck,

2704
01:31:02,750 --> 01:31:04,125
right? And a lot of founders

2705
01:31:04,250 --> 01:31:07,125
just kind of succumb to that because when

2706
01:31:07,125 --> 01:31:08,625
you start a company, when you're in the

2707
01:31:08,625 --> 01:31:09,583
20s, by the time you

2708
01:31:09,583 --> 01:31:11,041
get the offer, you're probably in the

2709
01:31:11,041 --> 01:31:12,125
30s. You probably have a

2710
01:31:12,125 --> 01:31:13,416
wife, you probably have kids,

2711
01:31:13,416 --> 01:31:14,333
you probably have a family, you probably

2712
01:31:14,333 --> 01:31:15,708
have mouths to feed. And

2713
01:31:15,708 --> 01:31:16,625
you're like, yeah, I'd rather

2714
01:31:16,625 --> 01:31:18,291
just take this hundred mil, I'd rather be

2715
01:31:18,291 --> 01:31:19,375
with my family and I'd

2716
01:31:19,375 --> 01:31:21,458
rather focus on it. And right now,

2717
01:31:21,458 --> 01:31:23,208
like it's easy to say that, hey, I want

2718
01:31:23,208 --> 01:31:24,125
to make my company last

2719
01:31:24,125 --> 01:31:25,500
game because there is no other

2720
01:31:25,500 --> 01:31:27,291
mouths depending on you. There is no one

2721
01:31:27,291 --> 01:31:28,583
else depending on you in

2722
01:31:28,583 --> 01:31:29,750
the same way that people will

2723
01:31:29,750 --> 01:31:32,666
be depending on you. When your company is

2724
01:31:32,666 --> 01:31:34,250
a serious E company, when it

2725
01:31:34,250 --> 01:31:35,666
comes about IPO, when you're

2726
01:31:35,708 --> 01:31:37,666
about when you're being offered like

2727
01:31:37,666 --> 01:31:39,375
hundreds of millions of dollars of

2728
01:31:39,375 --> 01:31:40,791
liquidity or billions of

2729
01:31:40,791 --> 01:31:42,708
dollars in liquidity. A lot of founders

2730
01:31:42,708 --> 01:31:44,500
at that time, they blink and

2731
01:31:44,500 --> 01:31:45,958
they say, yeah, I want to go

2732
01:31:45,958 --> 01:31:47,291
back, I want to focus on my family, I

2733
01:31:47,291 --> 01:31:48,458
want to focus on my new

2734
01:31:48,458 --> 01:31:49,875
ventures, I've gotten burnt out,

2735
01:31:49,875 --> 01:31:52,166
I've gotten sick of this company. So it's

2736
01:31:52,166 --> 01:31:53,708
hard to say. But the

2737
01:31:53,708 --> 01:31:55,000
ones that are truly lasting,

2738
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:56,541
the ones that are truly iconic tend to be

2739
01:31:56,541 --> 01:31:57,333
the ones that retain

2740
01:31:57,333 --> 01:31:59,416
their founder CEOs who look at

2741
01:32:00,416 --> 01:32:02,375
that billion dollar payday or that

2742
01:32:02,375 --> 01:32:05,250
hundred dollar pay day and are like,

2743
01:32:05,250 --> 01:32:06,333
yeah, well, I don't care

2744
01:32:06,333 --> 01:32:07,666
about that. I care more about the

2745
01:32:07,666 --> 01:32:09,041
company. I care more about pushing this

2746
01:32:09,041 --> 01:32:11,666
forward. And one can say

2747
01:32:11,666 --> 01:32:13,375
all they want about like, hey, I want to

2748
01:32:13,375 --> 01:32:14,208
make this company last

2749
01:32:14,208 --> 01:32:16,291
game. But one can never truly

2750
01:32:16,333 --> 01:32:19,208
answer that question until they are put

2751
01:32:19,208 --> 01:32:21,416
into that position. That's my take on it.

2752
01:32:21,916 --> 01:32:25,416
Yeah, yeah. And until until you have the

2753
01:32:25,416 --> 01:32:26,916
term sheet on the table.

2754
01:32:26,916 --> 01:32:29,208
Not until you have the terms on the

2755
01:32:29,208 --> 01:32:31,000
table, it's not until like

2756
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:33,041
you you have that offer in front

2757
01:32:33,041 --> 01:32:35,625
of you and you're in your 30s and your

2758
01:32:35,625 --> 01:32:36,458
kids are going to private

2759
01:32:36,458 --> 01:32:37,708
school and your wife's nagging

2760
01:32:37,708 --> 01:32:40,916
you about like the family vacation or the

2761
01:32:40,916 --> 01:32:43,083
family home. And like you

2762
01:32:43,083 --> 01:32:44,666
can't work like nine nights,

2763
01:32:44,875 --> 01:32:46,916
like you can't be working like $100 a

2764
01:32:46,916 --> 01:32:49,791
week anymore. And at that

2765
01:32:49,791 --> 01:32:50,541
point, when you look at it,

2766
01:32:50,583 --> 01:32:53,375
it's much easier to say, well, I think

2767
01:32:53,375 --> 01:32:54,250
it's time for me to call

2768
01:32:54,250 --> 01:32:55,750
quits or I think it's time for me

2769
01:32:55,750 --> 01:32:58,333
to move on to something else. Take my

2770
01:32:58,333 --> 01:33:00,000
chips off the table and do something

2771
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:00,625
else. Take my chips off

2772
01:33:00,625 --> 01:33:02,208
the table. Or by that point, you already

2773
01:33:02,208 --> 01:33:02,958
have like external

2774
01:33:02,958 --> 01:33:04,500
stakeholders, right? You have the board

2775
01:33:04,541 --> 01:33:07,000
pushing on you. You you lose that time

2776
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:08,333
and you lose that agency as

2777
01:33:08,333 --> 01:33:09,375
you bring on more and more and

2778
01:33:09,375 --> 01:33:12,000
more investors. And the company probably

2779
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,166
has more from something

2780
01:33:13,166 --> 01:33:14,708
that's different from your original

2781
01:33:15,041 --> 01:33:17,791
vision or strong past just yourself. And

2782
01:33:17,791 --> 01:33:19,041
for a lot of founders, like I don't want

2783
01:33:19,041 --> 01:33:19,500
to be a professional

2784
01:33:19,500 --> 01:33:21,000
project manager anymore. I want to do

2785
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:21,833
something new. I want to

2786
01:33:21,833 --> 01:33:23,875
start something new and get back

2787
01:33:23,875 --> 01:33:26,333
that agency back. And it's very easy to

2788
01:33:26,333 --> 01:33:27,541
just dip at that point.

2789
01:33:28,583 --> 01:33:30,458
Series B onwards, I hear that there

2790
01:33:30,625 --> 01:33:33,375
are options to take some money off some

2791
01:33:33,375 --> 01:33:35,000
chips off the table while still like

2792
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:35,833
continuing to run with

2793
01:33:35,833 --> 01:33:37,166
it. Take a few mil off the table,

2794
01:33:37,625 --> 01:33:40,000
especially like towards the later rounds.

2795
01:33:40,666 --> 01:33:42,416
So there in theory is a

2796
01:33:42,416 --> 01:33:45,125
way to take some cash out for yourself

2797
01:33:45,125 --> 01:33:46,375
and like continue doubling

2798
01:33:46,375 --> 01:33:47,833
down. Now, when it comes to

2799
01:33:48,708 --> 01:33:51,541
the grind, like that's not going to go

2800
01:33:51,541 --> 01:33:54,625
away. Like it's going to stay like the

2801
01:33:54,625 --> 01:33:55,333
top priority in your

2802
01:33:55,333 --> 01:33:58,000
life for as long as you're running it.

2803
01:33:58,000 --> 01:33:59,083
And so for that reason, I

2804
01:33:59,083 --> 01:34:01,458
could see many founders, I've seen

2805
01:34:01,458 --> 01:34:03,250
many founders leave even when like it

2806
01:34:03,250 --> 01:34:04,291
wasn't about money,

2807
01:34:04,666 --> 01:34:06,041
just when it comes to like,

2808
01:34:07,500 --> 01:34:09,833
I mean, the big thing is, it's easy to

2809
01:34:09,833 --> 01:34:11,750
say it's like, it's easy to

2810
01:34:11,750 --> 01:34:13,916
say today, right? But it's

2811
01:34:13,958 --> 01:34:16,125
always different when the offers on the

2812
01:34:16,125 --> 01:34:18,208
table. And you would look

2813
01:34:18,208 --> 01:34:19,208
at millions of dollars in the

2814
01:34:19,208 --> 01:34:21,875
face. I mean, it's everyone will everyone

2815
01:34:21,875 --> 01:34:23,458
will say, I'm not going

2816
01:34:23,458 --> 01:34:24,791
to take that the secondary,

2817
01:34:24,791 --> 01:34:26,833
I'm going to make my company a

2818
01:34:26,833 --> 01:34:28,875
generational company. And

2819
01:34:28,875 --> 01:34:32,166
everyone, and usually people will

2820
01:34:32,166 --> 01:34:34,791
blink when that offer is given to them.

2821
01:34:35,541 --> 01:34:37,708
Yeah, it's hard not to.

2822
01:34:37,958 --> 01:34:39,250
I've seen that happen. It's

2823
01:34:39,291 --> 01:34:43,916
understandable. But you know, not for

2824
01:34:43,916 --> 01:34:46,208
everybody. Could you add,

2825
01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:47,916
could you tell us the story of

2826
01:34:47,916 --> 01:34:49,916
Stradidine and all the pivots that you

2827
01:34:49,916 --> 01:34:52,333
guys went through that like, I think

2828
01:34:52,333 --> 01:34:53,500
young founders really

2829
01:34:53,583 --> 01:34:55,291
could really get some value learning

2830
01:34:55,291 --> 01:34:57,333
about the story of Stradidine.

2831
01:34:58,041 --> 01:35:00,375
Got it. Absolutely. So Stradidine, we

2832
01:35:00,375 --> 01:35:03,750
started I started it with the idea of

2833
01:35:03,958 --> 01:35:06,791
how old were you when you started? 20,

2834
01:35:06,958 --> 01:35:08,166
20. I was during virtual

2835
01:35:08,166 --> 01:35:09,708
school during COVID. I hated

2836
01:35:09,708 --> 01:35:10,833
virtual school. Didn't see a point in it

2837
01:35:10,833 --> 01:35:12,208
dropped out. I started to

2838
01:35:12,208 --> 01:35:13,583
do Stradidine figured I might

2839
01:35:13,583 --> 01:35:15,666
as well tap into my passion for rocketry

2840
01:35:15,666 --> 01:35:19,333
and space tech and try to do start of

2841
01:35:19,333 --> 01:35:20,750
where we would try to

2842
01:35:20,750 --> 01:35:23,208
launch rockets into orbit from the

2843
01:35:23,208 --> 01:35:24,458
stratosphere, right? In the

2844
01:35:24,458 --> 01:35:25,208
stratosphere, we're talking about

2845
01:35:25,208 --> 01:35:26,625
much thinner atmosphere, much less air

2846
01:35:26,625 --> 01:35:29,083
resistance. Theoretically, you can

2847
01:35:29,083 --> 01:35:30,208
replace the first stage of

2848
01:35:30,250 --> 01:35:32,541
a launch vehicle with it. Turns out two

2849
01:35:32,541 --> 01:35:34,083
problems. The main obstacle

2850
01:35:34,083 --> 01:35:35,833
to get into orbit is delta V,

2851
01:35:36,250 --> 01:35:40,041
not not altitude. Delta V is kind of hard

2852
01:35:40,041 --> 01:35:40,958
to get when you're talking

2853
01:35:40,958 --> 01:35:42,166
about limiting yourself to a

2854
01:35:42,166 --> 01:35:43,875
small launch vehicle that has to be able

2855
01:35:43,875 --> 01:35:44,916
to be hoisted up by a

2856
01:35:44,916 --> 01:35:47,000
balloon. Problem number two is

2857
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:48,791
that the launch market is actually very

2858
01:35:48,791 --> 01:35:51,333
small. There's a ton of

2859
01:35:51,333 --> 01:35:52,583
startups around that time. I

2860
01:35:52,583 --> 01:35:55,458
remember like Leo aerospace being one

2861
01:35:55,458 --> 01:35:57,666
that we're pursuing this idea

2862
01:35:57,666 --> 01:35:59,333
as well of launching rockets

2863
01:35:59,458 --> 01:36:01,958
from balloons. All of them I think have

2864
01:36:01,958 --> 01:36:03,000
failed at this point because

2865
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:04,166
space tech has emerged as a

2866
01:36:04,166 --> 01:36:07,041
clear winner. And turns out cost is a

2867
01:36:07,041 --> 01:36:09,166
giant issue when you're talking about

2868
01:36:09,166 --> 01:36:10,041
like sending such small

2869
01:36:10,041 --> 01:36:12,041
payloads into orbit on such a small form

2870
01:36:12,041 --> 01:36:14,666
factor. So I remember

2871
01:36:14,666 --> 01:36:18,291
taking it and eventually we got

2872
01:36:18,291 --> 01:36:20,166
told by our investors, hey, you guys

2873
01:36:20,166 --> 01:36:21,833
should really find. I remember taking

2874
01:36:21,833 --> 01:36:23,416
that and we tried to find

2875
01:36:23,416 --> 01:36:25,916
investors and I remember a code emailing

2876
01:36:25,916 --> 01:36:27,541
around a thousand or so investors who

2877
01:36:27,541 --> 01:36:28,208
raised the first half

2878
01:36:28,250 --> 01:36:31,833
mill. Wow. Yeah. And that was fucking,

2879
01:36:32,041 --> 01:36:32,583
that was a horrible

2880
01:36:32,583 --> 01:36:35,041
experience. I don't recommend it unless

2881
01:36:35,041 --> 01:36:37,375
you have to. But. The experience is

2882
01:36:37,375 --> 01:36:39,000
admirable and like that may be what it

2883
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:40,500
takes to like the aspiring

2884
01:36:40,625 --> 01:36:43,083
hard tech, space tech, deep tech founders

2885
01:36:43,083 --> 01:36:44,791
out there like listening.

2886
01:36:45,208 --> 01:36:46,416
Like you may have to email

2887
01:36:46,416 --> 01:36:49,458
1000 people to raise 500k. And like that

2888
01:36:49,458 --> 01:36:50,416
may be what I could do

2889
01:36:50,416 --> 01:36:51,583
today. I don't think I could do

2890
01:36:51,583 --> 01:36:52,750
today. That's all I'm saying. I don't

2891
01:36:52,750 --> 01:36:54,708
think I could do today. If you had to,

2892
01:36:54,708 --> 01:36:56,500
you would. If I had to, I would.

2893
01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:58,166
I mean, if I had to, I would. But I'm

2894
01:36:58,166 --> 01:36:59,458
saying that right now. Like if I'm

2895
01:36:59,458 --> 01:37:00,875
looking at it back on it,

2896
01:37:00,875 --> 01:37:02,500
I'm like, I don't know why I didn't quit.

2897
01:37:02,916 --> 01:37:05,083
I have no idea why I didn't quit. But.

2898
01:37:05,458 --> 01:37:06,666
That's just what it takes. And I think

2899
01:37:06,666 --> 01:37:07,625
that's important not to

2900
01:37:07,625 --> 01:37:09,875
gloss over. Like for the aspiring

2901
01:37:09,875 --> 01:37:12,000
founders listening to this, like for the

2902
01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:12,666
people that, for the

2903
01:37:12,666 --> 01:37:13,583
founders that may have otherwise

2904
01:37:13,583 --> 01:37:16,500
stopped after their 30th, 50th, 100th,

2905
01:37:16,500 --> 01:37:20,166
no. Like it may genuinely take 300 like

2906
01:37:20,166 --> 01:37:21,583
cold emails, cold calls,

2907
01:37:22,333 --> 01:37:25,375
chasing down an investor. Like before you

2908
01:37:25,375 --> 01:37:26,791
get your very first yes.

2909
01:37:27,458 --> 01:37:28,666
And like that is like the

2910
01:37:28,791 --> 01:37:30,875
grit and spirit of determination that it

2911
01:37:30,875 --> 01:37:32,708
just takes. I just want to

2912
01:37:32,708 --> 01:37:34,166
make sure that we highlight that.

2913
01:37:34,166 --> 01:37:35,833
I mean, the thing was I went about in the

2914
01:37:35,833 --> 01:37:38,958
most knuckle headed way

2915
01:37:38,958 --> 01:37:40,541
possible. I didn't learn

2916
01:37:40,541 --> 01:37:42,041
anything about the venture market. I just

2917
01:37:42,041 --> 01:37:42,958
found out there's something

2918
01:37:42,958 --> 01:37:44,375
called a VC that would give

2919
01:37:44,375 --> 01:37:47,041
you money to build stuff. And I figured,

2920
01:37:47,041 --> 01:37:48,000
you know what? If I email

2921
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:49,291
enough of these VCs, eventually

2922
01:37:49,375 --> 01:37:51,000
one of them is going to take pity on us

2923
01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:53,000
and give us money. And that's what I did.

2924
01:37:53,750 --> 01:37:56,041
Right? Like if you're from Stanford, if

2925
01:37:56,041 --> 01:37:57,250
you're from like a school

2926
01:37:57,250 --> 01:37:58,708
with a strong CS program or

2927
01:37:58,708 --> 01:38:00,333
from the coast, you probably will have a

2928
01:38:00,333 --> 01:38:01,625
much better understanding how VCs

2929
01:38:01,625 --> 01:38:02,333
operate. You probably

2930
01:38:02,333 --> 01:38:04,125
will have connections of VCs. You

2931
01:38:04,125 --> 01:38:05,750
probably will have a network of work

2932
01:38:05,750 --> 01:38:07,958
reductions. Use that. Don't

2933
01:38:07,958 --> 01:38:09,500
don't do the code. Don't do a thousand

2934
01:38:09,500 --> 01:38:11,041
cold emails that in

2935
01:38:11,041 --> 01:38:13,000
retrospect wasted a ton of my time.

2936
01:38:13,750 --> 01:38:15,750
Particularly as all the cold emails that

2937
01:38:15,750 --> 01:38:16,875
you get a response on cold

2938
01:38:16,875 --> 01:38:18,041
emails, you have to make them

2939
01:38:18,083 --> 01:38:21,291
personalized. So we're talking like hours

2940
01:38:21,291 --> 01:38:22,458
of research, just doing

2941
01:38:22,458 --> 01:38:23,333
nothing but sending cold

2942
01:38:23,333 --> 01:38:25,000
emails every single day. Because it's

2943
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:25,666
been that time building.

2944
01:38:26,166 --> 01:38:27,958
Don't do that. There's a lot of

2945
01:38:27,958 --> 01:38:30,041
resources out nowadays, like for example,

2946
01:38:30,041 --> 01:38:32,000
like 15, 17 different like

2947
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:34,208
grants as well as the summer

2948
01:38:34,416 --> 01:38:36,625
building program. You have like different

2949
01:38:36,625 --> 01:38:40,000
dorm room fund, rough

2950
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:41,208
draft ventures, all of these

2951
01:38:41,208 --> 01:38:42,416
different funds are invested in the two

2952
01:38:42,416 --> 01:38:44,041
founders. Go through them

2953
01:38:44,041 --> 01:38:45,708
first, build a network first.

2954
01:38:46,166 --> 01:38:48,125
Don't just charge straight into it. Take

2955
01:38:48,125 --> 01:38:48,958
some time to understand

2956
01:38:48,958 --> 01:38:50,000
the market. Take some time to

2957
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:52,041
understand ecosystem. Take some time to

2958
01:38:52,041 --> 01:38:53,666
understand why, what makes

2959
01:38:53,666 --> 01:38:55,750
VCs tick? Why, what makes them

2960
01:38:55,750 --> 01:38:58,541
say yes, as well as the same for the

2961
01:38:58,541 --> 01:38:59,750
customers. What makes your customers

2962
01:38:59,750 --> 01:39:00,416
tick? What makes them

2963
01:39:00,416 --> 01:39:01,958
say yes? What, what's the main pain

2964
01:39:01,958 --> 01:39:03,958
point? And what is something you can

2965
01:39:03,958 --> 01:39:05,208
promise them that you

2966
01:39:05,208 --> 01:39:07,750
know that they absolutely will say yes to

2967
01:39:07,750 --> 01:39:09,750
in a short period of time.

2968
01:39:09,750 --> 01:39:13,333
But it is okay to feel like

2969
01:39:13,458 --> 01:39:15,416
knucklehead, you know, at the very start,

2970
01:39:15,666 --> 01:39:17,458
like it's a part of it is

2971
01:39:17,458 --> 01:39:18,833
like knowing that it'll you'll

2972
01:39:18,833 --> 01:39:21,333
make it happen either way, right? Well,

2973
01:39:21,333 --> 01:39:22,291
the analogy I can give

2974
01:39:22,291 --> 01:39:25,750
is most people, let's say

2975
01:39:25,750 --> 01:39:27,791
trunk into a building, most people, and

2976
01:39:27,791 --> 01:39:28,916
you can't find a door, most

2977
01:39:28,916 --> 01:39:30,250
people will walk around the

2978
01:39:30,250 --> 01:39:31,791
building and find the entrance and then

2979
01:39:31,791 --> 01:39:35,583
walk into that way. I decided to wrap my

2980
01:39:35,583 --> 01:39:36,333
head against a brick

2981
01:39:36,333 --> 01:39:37,875
wall and throw the brick wall broke and

2982
01:39:37,875 --> 01:39:41,000
then walked in. Yeah,

2983
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:41,833
that sounds like you had

2984
01:39:43,916 --> 01:39:46,583
persistent and stubborn. And just if you

2985
01:39:46,583 --> 01:39:47,583
could just focus that in

2986
01:39:47,583 --> 01:39:48,833
the areas that have the most

2987
01:39:48,833 --> 01:39:50,125
leverage, you know, that's ideal, but

2988
01:39:50,125 --> 01:39:51,333
like that hard headedness,

2989
01:39:51,333 --> 01:39:52,833
like it's still required,

2990
01:39:53,416 --> 01:39:56,500
ideally, like oriented in the most useful

2991
01:39:56,500 --> 01:39:57,541
high leverage pursuits,

2992
01:39:57,541 --> 01:40:01,000
right? Yeah. So how, how, like,

2993
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:03,541
how did the stratodine like go? How did

2994
01:40:03,541 --> 01:40:04,625
what were the pivots? Like,

2995
01:40:04,625 --> 01:40:06,041
what was how did you find the

2996
01:40:06,041 --> 01:40:08,708
problem to solve? Like, and maybe share

2997
01:40:08,708 --> 01:40:10,166
like the rules that you

2998
01:40:10,166 --> 01:40:11,791
broke, like, you know, breaking

2999
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:14,000
rules and asking for forgiveness, you

3000
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:15,833
know, with the first balloons with

3001
01:40:15,833 --> 01:40:17,125
cameras on them, like you

3002
01:40:17,125 --> 01:40:19,166
can you share that story? I love I love

3003
01:40:19,166 --> 01:40:20,500
hearing this story. And I

3004
01:40:20,500 --> 01:40:22,250
know that our listeners would

3005
01:40:22,250 --> 01:40:24,750
love to love to hear it as well. Oh, man,

3006
01:40:24,750 --> 01:40:26,958
that was, that was such a

3007
01:40:26,958 --> 01:40:28,500
long time ago. It's hard to

3008
01:40:28,500 --> 01:40:33,291
remember. Come on, you're not that old. I

3009
01:40:33,291 --> 01:40:34,500
feel like it feels like

3010
01:40:34,500 --> 01:40:35,416
a long time. It was like,

3011
01:40:35,458 --> 01:40:38,291
what, three years ago, but four years ago

3012
01:40:38,291 --> 01:40:40,000
around now at this point.

3013
01:40:40,500 --> 01:40:42,000
But it's so much has happened

3014
01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:43,208
since then. That's kind of hard to

3015
01:40:43,208 --> 01:40:48,375
recall. Yeah. So with stratodine, well, I

3016
01:40:48,375 --> 01:40:50,250
remember we were selling,

3017
01:40:50,958 --> 01:40:53,250
so when we pivoted away from doing the

3018
01:40:53,250 --> 01:40:54,333
launch option from these

3019
01:40:54,333 --> 01:40:56,000
balloons, you pivoted using all

3020
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:57,500
balloons as mobile surveillance

3021
01:40:57,500 --> 01:40:59,083
platforms, security platforms,

3022
01:40:59,541 --> 01:41:01,083
as well as like your real time

3023
01:41:01,125 --> 01:41:03,083
with the data connection. I remember

3024
01:41:03,083 --> 01:41:04,208
going out to customers

3025
01:41:04,208 --> 01:41:06,500
pretending to be a big company in

3026
01:41:06,500 --> 01:41:09,833
sales mode. Right. And we were like

3027
01:41:09,833 --> 01:41:11,083
saying, Oh, right. Do you

3028
01:41:11,083 --> 01:41:12,125
want to buy do you want to place

3029
01:41:12,125 --> 01:41:14,416
in order from us? And I remember we

3030
01:41:14,416 --> 01:41:15,750
didn't actually know how much it was

3031
01:41:15,750 --> 01:41:17,208
doing for cost. We were I

3032
01:41:17,208 --> 01:41:20,250
was just like, kind of like estimating it

3033
01:41:20,250 --> 01:41:21,541
turns out we were

3034
01:41:21,541 --> 01:41:22,708
actually selling shit at a loss.

3035
01:41:23,083 --> 01:41:25,125
Probably a bad idea. But don't do this.

3036
01:41:25,125 --> 01:41:25,791
Don't do this. Don't

3037
01:41:25,791 --> 01:41:26,958
pretend to be a big company and

3038
01:41:27,125 --> 01:41:29,291
sell product that doesn't exist. But we

3039
01:41:29,291 --> 01:41:30,458
were getting a ton of

3040
01:41:30,458 --> 01:41:32,666
non-binding LOIs done with these

3041
01:41:32,666 --> 01:41:35,166
big allied militaries and these big

3042
01:41:35,166 --> 01:41:40,250
organizations. And in retrospect, that

3043
01:41:40,250 --> 01:41:41,375
was what enabled that

3044
01:41:41,500 --> 01:41:43,125
really did help us a lot with fundraising

3045
01:41:43,125 --> 01:41:44,041
towards the end of

3046
01:41:44,041 --> 01:41:46,916
stratodine. And that also did help us

3047
01:41:47,125 --> 01:41:49,250
get off the ground. Though these

3048
01:41:49,250 --> 01:41:52,500
contracts, these LOIs will come back to

3049
01:41:52,500 --> 01:41:53,708
haunt us because the margins

3050
01:41:53,875 --> 01:41:55,541
on them were non-existing. And they

3051
01:41:55,541 --> 01:41:56,125
essentially would have

3052
01:41:56,125 --> 01:41:57,458
required us to raise a large round

3053
01:41:57,458 --> 01:41:59,416
of retrofront even to just be able to

3054
01:41:59,416 --> 01:42:01,208
fulfill just the first

3055
01:42:01,208 --> 01:42:03,291
phase of them. Don't do that.

3056
01:42:03,958 --> 01:42:05,875
Yeah, probably don't do that. Well, take

3057
01:42:05,875 --> 01:42:08,333
away. I'll like noted. But

3058
01:42:08,333 --> 01:42:09,541
what about what about the

3059
01:42:09,916 --> 01:42:11,875
like helping farmers, man? Like you were

3060
01:42:11,875 --> 01:42:12,791
doing that for a while.

3061
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:14,000
Like don't skip over that.

3062
01:42:14,250 --> 01:42:15,833
That's like, Oh, yeah. I mean, we started

3063
01:42:15,833 --> 01:42:16,666
to understand the

3064
01:42:16,666 --> 01:42:18,208
agriculture. But agriculture turns

3065
01:42:18,250 --> 01:42:20,750
out you have to find it's not just about

3066
01:42:20,750 --> 01:42:22,541
finding fixing the problem for the

3067
01:42:22,541 --> 01:42:23,166
customer. It's about

3068
01:42:23,208 --> 01:42:25,791
finding the right customer to find a

3069
01:42:25,791 --> 01:42:27,000
customer that's open to

3070
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:28,875
adopting new technology that has

3071
01:42:29,041 --> 01:42:31,083
deep pockets that can make decisions

3072
01:42:31,083 --> 01:42:32,916
relatively fast. And it's

3073
01:42:32,916 --> 01:42:34,500
relatively easy to build and to

3074
01:42:34,500 --> 01:42:35,583
break forward. They can buy a

3075
01:42:35,583 --> 01:42:36,750
standardized product that they're

3076
01:42:36,750 --> 01:42:38,125
offering and without the

3077
01:42:38,250 --> 01:42:39,625
great deal of customization or

3078
01:42:39,625 --> 01:42:43,166
integration work. For agriculture was not

3079
01:42:43,166 --> 01:42:44,041
one of what's not the

3080
01:42:44,041 --> 01:42:45,958
state of customer agriculture has deals

3081
01:42:45,958 --> 01:42:47,291
with low margins. So they

3082
01:42:47,291 --> 01:42:48,875
have low budgets. They don't

3083
01:42:48,916 --> 01:42:50,291
really understand how new technology

3084
01:42:50,291 --> 01:42:53,750
works. And so essentially doing like

3085
01:42:53,750 --> 01:42:54,916
imaging for farmers will

3086
01:42:54,916 --> 01:42:56,291
require a great deal of customization,

3087
01:42:56,541 --> 01:42:57,208
great deal of integration

3088
01:42:57,208 --> 01:42:58,500
work, as well as a great deal of

3089
01:42:58,500 --> 01:43:01,291
manual labor from arm. Right. So we ended

3090
01:43:01,291 --> 01:43:02,125
up pivoting into like

3091
01:43:02,125 --> 01:43:03,458
working with defense customers,

3092
01:43:03,458 --> 01:43:05,833
because yes, they, the sales cycles still

3093
01:43:05,833 --> 01:43:07,375
are difficult, but they

3094
01:43:07,375 --> 01:43:08,666
at least understand new

3095
01:43:08,666 --> 01:43:10,041
technology, they understand what you

3096
01:43:10,041 --> 01:43:13,291
want. They understand how things are.

3097
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:15,833
Right. With working with

3098
01:43:15,833 --> 01:43:17,291
startups, like farmers will understand

3099
01:43:17,291 --> 01:43:18,750
what startup is. Farmers

3100
01:43:18,750 --> 01:43:19,833
don't like to work with startups.

3101
01:43:20,291 --> 01:43:23,000
Farmers know about Bayer and Monsanto and

3102
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:24,083
John Deere. Farmers don't

3103
01:43:24,083 --> 01:43:25,250
know about some bump starts,

3104
01:43:25,375 --> 01:43:28,916
like bumbling around the Midwest. And so

3105
01:43:28,916 --> 01:43:30,416
you don't trust you.

3106
01:43:31,375 --> 01:43:32,916
Defense, they will. Right. Defense

3107
01:43:33,125 --> 01:43:34,666
is usually working with startups. You're

3108
01:43:34,666 --> 01:43:35,291
usually working with like a

3109
01:43:35,291 --> 01:43:37,750
bit of a chain key solution,

3110
01:43:38,333 --> 01:43:41,541
and particularly in the SBIR phase. And

3111
01:43:41,541 --> 01:43:42,750
that's why we pivoted into

3112
01:43:42,750 --> 01:43:44,291
working with these big defense

3113
01:43:44,416 --> 01:43:46,791
customers. And they do have much deeper

3114
01:43:46,791 --> 01:43:48,083
pockets. So it's not just

3115
01:43:48,083 --> 01:43:49,250
about solving the right problem.

3116
01:43:49,458 --> 01:43:50,500
Solving the right problem for the right

3117
01:43:50,500 --> 01:43:53,625
people. Some customer segments just

3118
01:43:53,625 --> 01:43:54,750
aren't worth it. And

3119
01:43:54,750 --> 01:43:56,333
that's something that I see a lot of

3120
01:43:56,333 --> 01:43:57,791
mistake. I see a lot of founders making,

3121
01:43:58,041 --> 01:43:58,875
right? When they jump

3122
01:43:58,875 --> 01:44:01,000
into an industry, like particularly like

3123
01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:03,208
an ad tech, where as one commonly

3124
01:44:03,208 --> 01:44:04,500
mentioned example, ad

3125
01:44:04,500 --> 01:44:07,333
tech, very low margins, very low budgets,

3126
01:44:07,583 --> 01:44:10,083
very strict purchasing

3127
01:44:10,083 --> 01:44:12,125
guidelines, very long timelines,

3128
01:44:12,583 --> 01:44:14,416
tons of integration work, tons of custom

3129
01:44:14,416 --> 01:44:15,916
working per customer. So

3130
01:44:15,916 --> 01:44:17,458
oftentimes founders jump into

3131
01:44:17,458 --> 01:44:18,291
it and they're like, "Well, we have

3132
01:44:18,291 --> 01:44:19,625
something the customer wants, but it's

3133
01:44:19,625 --> 01:44:20,666
not the right customer."

3134
01:44:20,666 --> 01:44:22,500
So it's better usually to find a

3135
01:44:22,500 --> 01:44:24,458
different type of idea or a different

3136
01:44:24,458 --> 01:44:26,083
pivot to something else.

3137
01:44:27,208 --> 01:44:29,666
How do you know it's time to pivot? Like

3138
01:44:29,666 --> 01:44:30,958
if there's a startup

3139
01:44:30,958 --> 01:44:32,583
founder watching this that has

3140
01:44:32,583 --> 01:44:34,000
been like banging their head against the

3141
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:36,416
wall for the longest, like how do they

3142
01:44:36,416 --> 01:44:38,208
know? Because so much

3143
01:44:38,250 --> 01:44:39,875
of the startup journey is getting punched

3144
01:44:39,875 --> 01:44:41,541
in the face. How do you

3145
01:44:41,541 --> 01:44:43,541
know if you should pivot

3146
01:44:43,750 --> 01:44:45,458
or continue getting punched in the face

3147
01:44:45,458 --> 01:44:46,625
with the current thing you're trying?

3148
01:44:47,583 --> 01:44:49,375
That's up to the founder's intuition. But

3149
01:44:49,375 --> 01:44:50,291
ultimately, if you're

3150
01:44:50,291 --> 01:44:51,041
getting punched in the face,

3151
01:44:51,250 --> 01:44:53,000
it's you have to look at the way you're

3152
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:53,541
getting punched in the

3153
01:44:53,541 --> 01:44:54,166
face. You're constantly

3154
01:44:54,250 --> 01:44:56,583
punching the face the same way from

3155
01:44:56,583 --> 01:44:59,291
customers. And it's not

3156
01:44:59,291 --> 01:45:01,625
something you can fix, right? It's

3157
01:45:01,625 --> 01:45:03,250
related to the customer itself, right?

3158
01:45:03,500 --> 01:45:04,500
Maybe customers telling

3159
01:45:04,500 --> 01:45:05,666
you the budget are too low,

3160
01:45:05,708 --> 01:45:07,250
or maybe customers keep saying that,

3161
01:45:07,250 --> 01:45:07,875
"We'd love to buy

3162
01:45:07,875 --> 01:45:09,125
this," but in 12 months.

3163
01:45:09,833 --> 01:45:11,708
Or you're trying to find that the number

3164
01:45:11,708 --> 01:45:12,291
of customers you

3165
01:45:12,291 --> 01:45:13,625
expected would want the solution

3166
01:45:13,833 --> 01:45:16,541
isn't as great as you originally

3167
01:45:16,541 --> 01:45:19,708
estimated. Then it might probably be time

3168
01:45:19,708 --> 01:45:20,833
to pivot and find a new

3169
01:45:20,833 --> 01:45:23,333
industry or a new customer set. It can

3170
01:45:23,333 --> 01:45:25,500
be, yeah. Ed, who do you

3171
01:45:25,500 --> 01:45:27,083
think are the main competitors

3172
01:45:27,708 --> 01:45:30,291
in the space race today? China and

3173
01:45:30,291 --> 01:45:31,666
America, and potentially

3174
01:45:31,666 --> 01:45:36,333
India. But ESA, the European Space

3175
01:45:36,416 --> 01:45:40,500
Agency, has encountered a lot of issues

3176
01:45:40,500 --> 01:45:41,166
on the regulatory

3177
01:45:41,166 --> 01:45:43,500
side, right? ESA has a very

3178
01:45:43,583 --> 01:45:45,666
burgeoning ecosystem, a small startup. I

3179
01:45:45,666 --> 01:45:46,583
would argue it's easier to

3180
01:45:46,583 --> 01:45:47,666
work with the European Space

3181
01:45:47,666 --> 01:45:51,291
Agency. As a European company, it's

3182
01:45:51,291 --> 01:45:52,500
probably easier to work

3183
01:45:52,500 --> 01:45:53,833
with a European Space Agency

3184
01:45:54,166 --> 01:45:57,083
than it is in America as an American

3185
01:45:57,083 --> 01:45:58,291
company trying to work with NASA.

3186
01:45:58,833 --> 01:45:59,791
However, the European

3187
01:45:59,791 --> 01:46:03,291
Space Agency is burdened by, one, a

3188
01:46:03,291 --> 01:46:05,875
massive need for continuous committee

3189
01:46:05,875 --> 01:46:07,333
support on every major

3190
01:46:07,458 --> 01:46:09,791
project because you need the individual

3191
01:46:09,791 --> 01:46:10,958
natural space agencies,

3192
01:46:11,166 --> 01:46:12,250
individual legislators, and

3193
01:46:12,250 --> 01:46:13,875
individual committees and governments of

3194
01:46:13,875 --> 01:46:14,666
every single country

3195
01:46:14,666 --> 01:46:16,333
involved in the project to agree

3196
01:46:16,333 --> 01:46:18,000
on every single bill change you want to

3197
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:20,166
make. And two, the

3198
01:46:20,166 --> 01:46:22,458
constant jockeying of different

3199
01:46:22,541 --> 01:46:24,791
political interests within Europe, as

3200
01:46:24,791 --> 01:46:28,916
well as the European, I would

3201
01:46:28,916 --> 01:46:30,333
argue that almost a European

3202
01:46:30,500 --> 01:46:33,708
culture. European culture usually isn't

3203
01:46:33,708 --> 01:46:35,666
as ambitious as American culture. It's

3204
01:46:35,666 --> 01:46:36,375
not to take on Europe,

3205
01:46:36,375 --> 01:46:39,041
right? I can understand why people are

3206
01:46:39,041 --> 01:46:40,916
attracted to Europe, or like

3207
01:46:40,916 --> 01:46:42,041
why people want to support the

3208
01:46:42,041 --> 01:46:45,000
European model to the United States. In

3209
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:48,583
Europe, it is very easy to be middle

3210
01:46:48,583 --> 01:46:50,083
class. Europe actually

3211
01:46:50,541 --> 01:46:52,500
pushes everyone into the middle class.

3212
01:46:53,250 --> 01:46:54,500
For the rich, it pushes them into the

3213
01:46:54,500 --> 01:46:55,041
middle class to higher

3214
01:46:55,125 --> 01:46:57,000
taxation. And for the poor, it pushes you

3215
01:46:57,000 --> 01:46:57,625
into the middle task by

3216
01:46:57,625 --> 01:46:58,916
offering you free social services,

3217
01:46:59,250 --> 01:47:01,625
free healthcare, free university, and

3218
01:47:01,625 --> 01:47:03,166
making it very

3219
01:47:03,166 --> 01:47:04,291
difficult for you to get fired.

3220
01:47:06,208 --> 01:47:09,166
And this is very different from the

3221
01:47:09,166 --> 01:47:09,916
American system. The

3222
01:47:09,916 --> 01:47:11,166
American system, I would argue,

3223
01:47:11,541 --> 01:47:14,000
high stakes, high reward. In America, if

3224
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:15,916
you fail, you can actually

3225
01:47:15,916 --> 01:47:17,916
sink down very, very low.

3226
01:47:18,791 --> 01:47:21,500
But, and have essentially no safety net

3227
01:47:21,500 --> 01:47:23,083
down there to support you. But in

3228
01:47:23,083 --> 01:47:24,541
America, you can also,

3229
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:27,000
if you're capable, and you're ambitious

3230
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:27,833
enough, and you have

3231
01:47:27,833 --> 01:47:29,666
agency, you can ascend to the

3232
01:47:30,000 --> 01:47:33,041
uppermost tiers of society. You can be

3233
01:47:33,041 --> 01:47:36,791
one of the richest people in America

3234
01:47:36,791 --> 01:47:38,333
without needing to be

3235
01:47:38,333 --> 01:47:40,416
born there. And that's one thing that's

3236
01:47:40,416 --> 01:47:41,666
worth noting in Europe. If

3237
01:47:41,666 --> 01:47:42,875
you look at, for example,

3238
01:47:42,875 --> 01:47:47,333
your richest families in Germany or

3239
01:47:47,333 --> 01:47:49,750
Italy, actually, no, if you look at the

3240
01:47:49,750 --> 01:47:50,875
richest families in Italy,

3241
01:47:51,166 --> 01:47:53,666
in the 1500s, and you look at the richest

3242
01:47:53,666 --> 01:47:54,916
families in Italy today,

3243
01:47:54,916 --> 01:47:57,125
you'll see a ton of the same names

3244
01:47:57,291 --> 01:47:59,541
showing up over and over and over again.

3245
01:48:01,166 --> 01:48:02,500
And if you look, but in

3246
01:48:02,500 --> 01:48:04,958
America, the Vanderbilt,

3247
01:48:05,541 --> 01:48:08,166
the Carnegie's, the Rockefeller's, they

3248
01:48:08,166 --> 01:48:09,083
were not the richest

3249
01:48:09,083 --> 01:48:10,375
families in America today.

3250
01:48:10,416 --> 01:48:12,500
There's a constantly cycling in and

3251
01:48:12,500 --> 01:48:14,625
shuffling out of the old and new guard.

3252
01:48:14,875 --> 01:48:15,500
And this essentially

3253
01:48:15,500 --> 01:48:18,333
means American innovation stays strong

3254
01:48:18,333 --> 01:48:19,833
because you have to be constantly

3255
01:48:19,833 --> 01:48:20,708
innovating, you have to be

3256
01:48:21,041 --> 01:48:22,500
taking risks, you have to constantly

3257
01:48:22,500 --> 01:48:25,375
moving forward in order to stay at the

3258
01:48:25,375 --> 01:48:26,375
top of the rat in Europe.

3259
01:48:26,791 --> 01:48:29,375
It's very easy, if you're at the top, to

3260
01:48:29,375 --> 01:48:30,500
just kind of entrench

3261
01:48:30,500 --> 01:48:32,166
yourself at the top and stay there,

3262
01:48:32,166 --> 01:48:34,041
and sort of kick the ladder down for any

3263
01:48:34,041 --> 01:48:35,083
one that's trying to

3264
01:48:35,083 --> 01:48:36,333
break their way into the top,

3265
01:48:36,583 --> 01:48:38,208
and essentially the top, through a

3266
01:48:38,208 --> 01:48:40,000
massive amount of regulations and

3267
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:42,666
taxation in the name of

3268
01:48:43,375 --> 01:48:48,000
ensuring egalitarian, equal society. And

3269
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:49,291
that's where I think Europe

3270
01:48:49,291 --> 01:48:50,250
may fall short. That's why

3271
01:48:50,250 --> 01:48:52,083
I think the most ambitious, talented

3272
01:48:52,083 --> 01:48:53,583
people in Europe are all

3273
01:48:53,583 --> 01:48:54,958
moving to the US. You don't want

3274
01:48:54,958 --> 01:48:56,041
to stay in Europe, they want to come to

3275
01:48:56,041 --> 01:48:57,000
the US because they want

3276
01:48:57,000 --> 01:48:58,125
to take the shot at being

3277
01:48:58,541 --> 01:49:00,625
top dog. In Europe, you are the born of

3278
01:49:00,625 --> 01:49:02,125
the top dog, or you just

3279
01:49:02,125 --> 01:49:04,000
don't become it, right? You can

3280
01:49:04,250 --> 01:49:05,875
stay middle class, you can never come for

3281
01:49:05,875 --> 01:49:06,666
life, but you want them to

3282
01:49:06,666 --> 01:49:08,583
be the richest man in Europe.

3283
01:49:09,958 --> 01:49:12,333
And also European culture doesn't reward

3284
01:49:12,333 --> 01:49:14,333
ambition. It isn't

3285
01:49:14,333 --> 01:49:17,583
something that is generally prided.

3286
01:49:18,416 --> 01:49:20,291
I know Europe has many different

3287
01:49:20,291 --> 01:49:21,791
countries and many different cultures,

3288
01:49:21,791 --> 01:49:23,000
but generally speaking,

3289
01:49:23,375 --> 01:49:27,291
America prides itself on being ambitious

3290
01:49:27,291 --> 01:49:29,208
and pushing the envelope

3291
01:49:29,208 --> 01:49:31,000
in a way that nowhere else

3292
01:49:31,125 --> 01:49:33,000
does. Really the most ambitious in the

3293
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:35,041
world are coming to America,

3294
01:49:35,333 --> 01:49:36,208
and they're usually coming to

3295
01:49:36,208 --> 01:49:38,083
America's tier one cities like New York

3296
01:49:38,083 --> 01:49:39,166
or Amman or San Francisco

3297
01:49:39,166 --> 01:49:42,000
where you're at, and they're

3298
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:43,500
creating a tremendous concentration

3299
01:49:43,500 --> 01:49:44,791
that's creating all these

3300
01:49:44,791 --> 01:49:46,083
positive feedback loops,

3301
01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:48,625
just having such a high density of the

3302
01:49:48,625 --> 01:49:50,958
most ambitious people. And it calls it.

3303
01:49:52,625 --> 01:49:55,333
I would argue it's not just a lack of...

3304
01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:57,375
Europe doesn't

3305
01:49:57,375 --> 01:49:58,458
necessarily punish you for having

3306
01:49:58,500 --> 01:50:01,500
ambition. However, it also doesn't

3307
01:50:01,500 --> 01:50:03,250
gracefully allow you to

3308
01:50:03,250 --> 01:50:05,250
fail. In America, I would argue,

3309
01:50:05,583 --> 01:50:07,166
the greatest factor that makes America so

3310
01:50:07,166 --> 01:50:08,125
successful is that

3311
01:50:08,125 --> 01:50:09,500
failure? Is it necessarily...

3312
01:50:10,666 --> 01:50:12,291
Yes, you can see for a lower failure, but

3313
01:50:12,291 --> 01:50:13,625
if you fail and you get up

3314
01:50:13,625 --> 01:50:15,416
again, you won't have that

3315
01:50:15,416 --> 01:50:16,916
same level of stigma around you. In

3316
01:50:16,916 --> 01:50:18,875
Europe, if you fail, you have that

3317
01:50:18,875 --> 01:50:19,708
stigma, right? You have that

3318
01:50:19,708 --> 01:50:21,583
stigma of being a failed entrepreneur. In

3319
01:50:21,583 --> 01:50:22,666
America, look at how many

3320
01:50:22,666 --> 01:50:23,958
founders there are in America

3321
01:50:23,958 --> 01:50:25,916
who's first venture, the second venture

3322
01:50:25,916 --> 01:50:26,875
has failed, and they

3323
01:50:26,875 --> 01:50:27,500
were still able to raise

3324
01:50:27,541 --> 01:50:28,875
money for the third venture. The third

3325
01:50:28,875 --> 01:50:29,833
venture succeeded, or the

3326
01:50:29,833 --> 01:50:30,750
fourth venture succeeded.

3327
01:50:31,375 --> 01:50:32,583
In Europe, you won't have that. You won't

3328
01:50:32,583 --> 01:50:33,166
have that in Europe,

3329
01:50:33,166 --> 01:50:35,916
right? You fail, and you get one

3330
01:50:35,916 --> 01:50:38,458
shot, and you're fucked. And in Europe,

3331
01:50:38,458 --> 01:50:41,541
it's not just that. Ambition, yes, it

3332
01:50:41,541 --> 01:50:42,458
isn't necessarily...

3333
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:45,416
I think ambition, people who tend to be

3334
01:50:45,416 --> 01:50:47,416
ambitious usually tend to have their own

3335
01:50:47,416 --> 01:50:48,291
agency. They usually

3336
01:50:48,333 --> 01:50:49,958
tend to break the rules. They usually

3337
01:50:49,958 --> 01:50:51,666
tend to not like to fit

3338
01:50:51,666 --> 01:50:53,833
within a certain expectation that

3339
01:50:53,916 --> 01:50:55,750
society and regulation are supposed upon

3340
01:50:55,750 --> 01:50:57,125
them. And in Europe, the

3341
01:50:57,125 --> 01:50:58,500
greater amount of regulations

3342
01:50:58,708 --> 01:51:01,833
and create this situation where the most

3343
01:51:01,833 --> 01:51:03,333
ambitious people just sort of

3344
01:51:03,333 --> 01:51:05,208
chafe under these regulations,

3345
01:51:05,208 --> 01:51:07,250
chafe in that environment, and just do

3346
01:51:07,250 --> 01:51:08,458
not want to stay there. Do

3347
01:51:08,458 --> 01:51:09,500
not want to stay in that risk

3348
01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:10,958
averse environment. Do not want to stay

3349
01:51:10,958 --> 01:51:11,791
in an environment with the

3350
01:51:11,791 --> 01:51:12,750
constant being regulated,

3351
01:51:12,958 --> 01:51:16,041
constantly forced to perform actions for

3352
01:51:16,041 --> 01:51:17,458
the sake of compliance that

3353
01:51:17,458 --> 01:51:18,416
don't really understand it,

3354
01:51:18,416 --> 01:51:20,500
don't really agree with. And in that

3355
01:51:20,500 --> 01:51:21,333
case, it makes more sense

3356
01:51:21,333 --> 01:51:22,458
for them to come to America.

3357
01:51:23,458 --> 01:51:26,916
Yeah. I think your parents came here as

3358
01:51:26,916 --> 01:51:27,750
immigrants as well, right?

3359
01:51:28,500 --> 01:51:28,666
Yeah.

3360
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:30,958
Yeah, we're both first generation. My

3361
01:51:30,958 --> 01:51:31,833
family from Ukraine, and I

3362
01:51:31,833 --> 01:51:33,333
believe your family from China,

3363
01:51:33,333 --> 01:51:33,708
is that right?

3364
01:51:33,875 --> 01:51:34,375
China, yeah.

3365
01:51:34,375 --> 01:51:38,958
Yeah. And so this is truly a rich land of

3366
01:51:38,958 --> 01:51:40,375
opportunity. And the

3367
01:51:40,375 --> 01:51:42,333
key difference that I

3368
01:51:42,333 --> 01:51:44,583
think for our listeners outside of the US

3369
01:51:44,583 --> 01:51:46,083
to understand is that

3370
01:51:46,083 --> 01:51:47,916
America guarantees equality

3371
01:51:48,416 --> 01:51:50,500
of opportunity, but not necessarily a

3372
01:51:50,500 --> 01:51:52,750
quality of outcome, the way a lot of

3373
01:51:52,750 --> 01:51:54,041
other Western countries

3374
01:51:54,041 --> 01:51:58,375
perhaps do. And that is very different.

3375
01:51:58,375 --> 01:52:00,291
Everybody has a chance to make it here,

3376
01:52:00,875 --> 01:52:03,041
but it's in your own hands. We really

3377
01:52:03,041 --> 01:52:04,500
reward individualism and

3378
01:52:04,500 --> 01:52:06,291
agency, and you got to go out

3379
01:52:06,291 --> 01:52:07,666
there and just grab it, right?

3380
01:52:10,291 --> 01:52:13,166
How do you... You mentioned the Italian

3381
01:52:13,166 --> 01:52:15,666
family names who you see

3382
01:52:15,666 --> 01:52:16,791
as still being wealthy and

3383
01:52:16,791 --> 01:52:18,541
powerful, the same ones from the 1500s

3384
01:52:18,541 --> 01:52:19,541
like the Medici's, et

3385
01:52:19,541 --> 01:52:22,958
cetera. You and I have a shared,

3386
01:52:23,041 --> 01:52:25,041
a deep appreciation for history. How

3387
01:52:25,041 --> 01:52:26,375
would you say history helps

3388
01:52:26,375 --> 01:52:28,208
you to be better at being a

3389
01:52:28,208 --> 01:52:30,625
founder? Like can you see it in your day

3390
01:52:30,625 --> 01:52:32,458
or like a particular instance?

3391
01:52:34,291 --> 01:52:37,000
I would argue being a founder is very

3392
01:52:37,000 --> 01:52:38,083
similar in the vein of being

3393
01:52:38,083 --> 01:52:40,000
a feudal monarch in Europe.

3394
01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:40,583
Oh, yeah.

3395
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:43,375
I'm not kidding. You look at the kings of

3396
01:52:43,375 --> 01:52:43,750
Europe, they

3397
01:52:43,750 --> 01:52:45,083
oftentimes will not be... They

3398
01:52:45,375 --> 01:52:47,125
were not other credit. They had to

3399
01:52:47,125 --> 01:52:47,958
balance the interests of many

3400
01:52:47,958 --> 01:52:48,833
stakeholders, be it the

3401
01:52:48,833 --> 01:52:51,250
nobility, that to rely on the nobility to

3402
01:52:51,250 --> 01:52:52,375
raise armies, to raise

3403
01:52:52,375 --> 01:52:53,958
taxes, to raise funds, that to

3404
01:52:53,958 --> 01:52:56,083
rely on the peasantry to work the deal,

3405
01:52:56,500 --> 01:52:57,916
to provide tax revenue, that

3406
01:52:57,916 --> 01:52:59,875
to rely on the clergy to bless

3407
01:52:59,875 --> 01:53:02,208
the rains, to provide approval, and they

3408
01:53:02,208 --> 01:53:04,250
also have to rely on the papacy. Being a

3409
01:53:04,250 --> 01:53:05,125
founder is very much

3410
01:53:05,125 --> 01:53:07,791
in the same vein. Yes, even if you are a

3411
01:53:07,791 --> 01:53:09,125
CEO, yes, you are top

3412
01:53:09,125 --> 01:53:10,000
dog in the company, but you

3413
01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:11,291
show up to stakeholders, show up to

3414
01:53:11,291 --> 01:53:12,333
employees that you have to

3415
01:53:12,333 --> 01:53:14,125
make happen. You have VCs that

3416
01:53:14,125 --> 01:53:17,666
you make happy. You have to be able to

3417
01:53:17,666 --> 01:53:18,458
garner the stolen

3418
01:53:18,458 --> 01:53:20,125
support. You have to be able to

3419
01:53:20,125 --> 01:53:21,708
garner support from within. You have to

3420
01:53:21,708 --> 01:53:22,875
be able to manage the

3421
01:53:22,875 --> 01:53:24,208
finances of the kingdom,

3422
01:53:24,208 --> 01:53:27,083
the company, so to speak, and ultimately,

3423
01:53:27,416 --> 01:53:30,333
you're dealing with a lot.

3424
01:53:30,791 --> 01:53:33,000
Yes, you are top dog. Yes,

3425
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:34,958
even if you are top dog, you still are

3426
01:53:34,958 --> 01:53:36,583
not really top dog. You still

3427
01:53:36,583 --> 01:53:39,250
answer to a massive myriad of

3428
01:53:39,291 --> 01:53:43,000
people. Even if you aren't supposed to be

3429
01:53:43,000 --> 01:53:44,166
independent, you aren't

3430
01:53:44,166 --> 01:53:45,208
really that independent

3431
01:53:45,583 --> 01:53:47,375
in the grand scheme of things. That makes

3432
01:53:47,375 --> 01:53:49,833
sense. Yeah, it does. That is an

3433
01:53:49,833 --> 01:53:50,875
interesting comparison.

3434
01:53:52,041 --> 01:53:53,625
That is not what I was expecting. A

3435
01:53:53,625 --> 01:53:55,083
little bit out of left field. What's a

3436
01:53:55,083 --> 01:53:56,000
favorite book you might

3437
01:53:56,333 --> 01:53:59,916
recommend? Everyone recommends this. Read

3438
01:53:59,916 --> 01:54:01,875
Three-Body Problem, read

3439
01:54:01,875 --> 01:54:03,041
the whole series. If you

3440
01:54:03,041 --> 01:54:04,958
understand Chinese, read the Chinese

3441
01:54:04,958 --> 01:54:05,916
translation, read the English

3442
01:54:05,916 --> 01:54:07,916
translation. If you can't

3443
01:54:07,958 --> 01:54:09,500
understand Chinese, if you can't read or

3444
01:54:09,500 --> 01:54:10,291
write Chinese, which

3445
01:54:10,291 --> 01:54:11,416
I'm guessing most of you

3446
01:54:11,416 --> 01:54:16,166
will not, do read it. I highly recommend

3447
01:54:16,166 --> 01:54:18,750
it. What about for the

3448
01:54:18,750 --> 01:54:19,833
founder journey specifically?

3449
01:54:21,458 --> 01:54:23,500
I never read any books about the founder

3450
01:54:23,500 --> 01:54:24,541
journey in particular, and

3451
01:54:24,541 --> 01:54:25,750
I never will. I've learned

3452
01:54:25,750 --> 01:54:27,416
every single verse. I've actually never

3453
01:54:27,416 --> 01:54:28,375
listened to podcasts about

3454
01:54:28,375 --> 01:54:30,000
the founder journey. You just

3455
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:31,333
take it. You just take it as it is.

3456
01:54:31,625 --> 01:54:33,916
Reading about something in theory is

3457
01:54:33,916 --> 01:54:34,791
always different from

3458
01:54:35,291 --> 01:54:37,791
doing executing in practice. I prefer to

3459
01:54:37,791 --> 01:54:38,625
look at everything from an

3460
01:54:38,625 --> 01:54:39,958
open mind and execute and

3461
01:54:39,958 --> 01:54:42,416
learn from first principles rather than

3462
01:54:42,416 --> 01:54:45,291
having an idea already set up and going

3463
01:54:45,291 --> 01:54:46,250
in with preconceptions.

3464
01:54:47,166 --> 01:54:48,541
That's so interesting. Do you read any

3465
01:54:48,541 --> 01:54:49,750
books that help you with

3466
01:54:49,750 --> 01:54:51,666
succeeding in business at all

3467
01:54:52,666 --> 01:54:54,916
or self-help? Anything like that? No,

3468
01:54:54,916 --> 01:54:57,166
actually not. That's so

3469
01:54:57,166 --> 01:54:58,916
rare. I don't know if I've ever

3470
01:54:58,916 --> 01:55:01,250
met a founder who has never read a book

3471
01:55:01,250 --> 01:55:02,500
to try and help them

3472
01:55:02,500 --> 01:55:03,916
succeed. Well, you're doing--

3473
01:55:03,958 --> 01:55:05,250
You don't overthink it. You don't

3474
01:55:05,250 --> 01:55:07,041
overthink it. You just do. Just don't

3475
01:55:07,041 --> 01:55:08,000
think about too much. Just do.

3476
01:55:08,500 --> 01:55:11,416
Sure. How do you sharpen your mind?

3477
01:55:11,791 --> 01:55:13,333
Traditionally, most founders turn to

3478
01:55:13,333 --> 01:55:15,625
books. It may be books just

3479
01:55:15,625 --> 01:55:18,250
outside of the work domain or founder

3480
01:55:18,250 --> 01:55:20,416
domain, but how do you keep yourself

3481
01:55:20,416 --> 01:55:21,458
sharp outside of work?

3482
01:55:21,458 --> 01:55:24,166
How do you grow yourself? You select

3483
01:55:24,166 --> 01:55:25,250
random topics that are

3484
01:55:25,250 --> 01:55:26,791
interesting, and you get ready

3485
01:55:26,875 --> 01:55:29,958
to do these topics. You focus on side

3486
01:55:29,958 --> 01:55:30,916
projects. For example,

3487
01:55:31,666 --> 01:55:32,541
right now, I'm a store in the

3488
01:55:32,541 --> 01:55:36,458
Russian kamikaze drone. One of the FPV

3489
01:55:36,458 --> 01:55:37,416
boomerang drones that the

3490
01:55:37,416 --> 01:55:38,750
Russians have in Ukraine. They

3491
01:55:38,750 --> 01:55:40,500
captured Ron. I bought off eBay. Now I'm

3492
01:55:40,500 --> 01:55:41,416
restoring it inside my

3493
01:55:41,416 --> 01:55:43,000
apartment. Did you find it was side

3494
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:44,000
projects? You were just storing a

3495
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:45,875
kamikaze drone from the battlefield?

3496
01:55:46,791 --> 01:55:48,875
Yeah. That's crazy. That's

3497
01:55:48,875 --> 01:55:51,791
insane. What compelled you to do this?

3498
01:55:52,500 --> 01:55:55,000
Why not? So are you going to

3499
01:55:55,000 --> 01:55:57,583
use it? It's a kamikaze drone,

3500
01:55:57,625 --> 01:55:59,583
no, but if it flies super fast, why not?

3501
01:56:00,208 --> 01:56:02,500
Yeah. Okay. Do you have

3502
01:56:02,500 --> 01:56:04,750
any plans for this kamikaze

3503
01:56:04,750 --> 01:56:06,833
drone you're restoring? I can probably

3504
01:56:06,833 --> 01:56:07,916
fly it around an FPV

3505
01:56:07,916 --> 01:56:09,875
drone. FPV racing sounds kind of

3506
01:56:09,875 --> 01:56:11,541
fun. Might as well gain to it using the

3507
01:56:11,541 --> 01:56:13,083
Russian model. But yeah,

3508
01:56:13,833 --> 01:56:16,666
you just... It's really just

3509
01:56:16,666 --> 01:56:18,500
a side project. Side projects, pursuing

3510
01:56:18,500 --> 01:56:19,250
the passions, and

3511
01:56:19,250 --> 01:56:21,333
finding multiple areas to get

3512
01:56:21,541 --> 01:56:24,458
really deep into and just learning as

3513
01:56:24,458 --> 01:56:26,125
much as possible about these subjects.

3514
01:56:29,666 --> 01:56:31,041
This kamikaze drone, I'm going to be

3515
01:56:31,041 --> 01:56:32,375
thinking about it for a little while.

3516
01:56:32,666 --> 01:56:33,583
That's so interesting.

3517
01:56:33,583 --> 01:56:36,375
That's so different. How else do you go

3518
01:56:36,375 --> 01:56:37,416
yourself outside of side

3519
01:56:37,416 --> 01:56:39,250
projects? Is there anything else

3520
01:56:39,250 --> 01:56:40,750
you do to make sure you're constantly

3521
01:56:40,750 --> 01:56:42,416
being the best version of yourself to

3522
01:56:42,416 --> 01:56:43,625
keep your own growth

3523
01:56:43,625 --> 01:56:45,291
curve ahead of that of the business so

3524
01:56:45,291 --> 01:56:48,416
that you don't stunt your dream?

3525
01:56:51,750 --> 01:56:53,041
Personally, I don't understand the

3526
01:56:53,041 --> 01:56:55,125
whole... Everyone has their own

3527
01:56:55,125 --> 01:56:56,000
preconceptions around

3528
01:56:56,000 --> 01:56:59,250
personal growth. I believe the best way

3529
01:56:59,250 --> 01:57:00,833
you grow personally is to

3530
01:57:00,833 --> 01:57:02,166
throw yourself into as many

3531
01:57:02,166 --> 01:57:05,083
unconventional situations, with as little

3532
01:57:05,083 --> 01:57:06,750
context as possible, and to

3533
01:57:06,750 --> 01:57:07,875
constantly force your mind to

3534
01:57:07,875 --> 01:57:10,750
be adapting to new situations, adapting

3535
01:57:10,750 --> 01:57:12,625
to new projects where you

3536
01:57:12,625 --> 01:57:13,791
essentially have to learn

3537
01:57:13,833 --> 01:57:16,583
everything from scratch. That's the way

3538
01:57:16,583 --> 01:57:18,166
you grow. You don't grow by reading the

3539
01:57:18,166 --> 01:57:18,791
ton of self-help books.

3540
01:57:18,791 --> 01:57:20,291
You don't grow by doing a bunch of cold

3541
01:57:20,291 --> 01:57:21,458
plunges at 4am in the

3542
01:57:21,458 --> 01:57:23,541
morning. You grow by doing. You grow

3543
01:57:23,541 --> 01:57:27,000
by learning and forcing yourself to

3544
01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:28,250
constantly be adapting

3545
01:57:28,250 --> 01:57:30,041
and constantly be shifting

3546
01:57:30,791 --> 01:57:32,916
contexts, shifting environments, and

3547
01:57:32,916 --> 01:57:35,458
stuff like that. People

3548
01:57:35,458 --> 01:57:38,708
might disagree with me. They will

3549
01:57:38,708 --> 01:57:41,000
disagree with me for good reason. I

3550
01:57:41,000 --> 01:57:43,375
understand it. But I do

3551
01:57:43,375 --> 01:57:44,791
think that a lot of people are

3552
01:57:44,833 --> 01:57:47,875
over-indexing on the meta of self-help,

3553
01:57:48,083 --> 01:57:49,125
on the meta of productivity,

3554
01:57:49,333 --> 01:57:50,541
on the meta of self-growth,

3555
01:57:50,916 --> 01:57:53,416
and not really doing anything with their

3556
01:57:53,416 --> 01:57:54,625
hands or doing anything

3557
01:57:54,625 --> 01:57:57,541
tangible to really make that

3558
01:57:57,541 --> 01:58:01,833
happen. Interesting. One of my favorite

3559
01:58:01,833 --> 01:58:03,291
things talking to you, Ed,

3560
01:58:03,291 --> 01:58:06,125
is how willing you are to be

3561
01:58:06,125 --> 01:58:08,958
a contrarian. How divergent you are from

3562
01:58:08,958 --> 01:58:12,666
common lines of thought

3563
01:58:12,666 --> 01:58:14,416
within both societies.

3564
01:58:15,291 --> 01:58:18,166
The founder community, you have no shame.

3565
01:58:18,875 --> 01:58:20,083
You'll say, "That's how it

3566
01:58:20,083 --> 01:58:22,000
is." Just how you think it to

3567
01:58:22,000 --> 01:58:25,083
be. That's wonderful. I think that's

3568
01:58:25,083 --> 01:58:27,291
definitely been instrumental for your

3569
01:58:27,291 --> 01:58:28,208
success when you say

3570
01:58:28,625 --> 01:58:30,166
being able to think outside the box and

3571
01:58:30,166 --> 01:58:32,083
be willing to be a contrarian.

3572
01:58:33,541 --> 01:58:34,916
Well, if you're a contrarian, you won't

3573
01:58:34,916 --> 01:58:36,000
get different outcomes.

3574
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:41,208
If you aren't a contrarian, you won't get

3575
01:58:41,208 --> 01:58:41,958
different outcomes.

3576
01:58:42,833 --> 01:58:45,791
The typical outcome as a

3577
01:58:45,791 --> 01:58:47,958
founder is your failure. That's all I can

3578
01:58:47,958 --> 01:58:48,916
really say about it.

3579
01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:50,708
The typical outcome

3580
01:58:50,708 --> 01:58:51,791
for a founder is what?

3581
01:58:52,666 --> 01:58:54,666
Failure. If you're a welcome of a

3582
01:58:54,666 --> 01:58:55,625
founder's failure, if you saw

3583
01:58:55,625 --> 01:58:56,666
a business expected to fail,

3584
01:58:57,041 --> 01:59:00,208
then for it to succeed, but expected to

3585
01:59:00,208 --> 01:59:03,625
fail. If you're not doing anything

3586
01:59:03,625 --> 01:59:04,208
different for anyone

3587
01:59:04,250 --> 01:59:04,958
else, why would you

3588
01:59:04,958 --> 01:59:06,166
expect a different outcome?

3589
01:59:08,958 --> 01:59:11,958
Saying that, with that in mind, do you

3590
01:59:11,958 --> 01:59:12,708
believe in manifestation?

3591
01:59:16,958 --> 01:59:20,208
I believe that manifestation, you

3592
01:59:20,208 --> 01:59:23,750
manifest things by taking actions to make

3593
01:59:23,750 --> 01:59:24,500
it happen. You don't

3594
01:59:24,500 --> 01:59:26,000
manifest things by writing stuff down in

3595
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:26,708
a notebook and then doing

3596
01:59:26,708 --> 01:59:28,125
nothing. That's all I can really

3597
01:59:28,125 --> 01:59:30,375
say about it. I know people say, "Yeah, I

3598
01:59:30,375 --> 01:59:32,416
manifested a million bucks." What the

3599
01:59:32,416 --> 01:59:33,125
fuck are you doing to

3600
01:59:33,208 --> 01:59:35,583
get a million bucks? They're like, "Well,

3601
01:59:35,583 --> 01:59:36,791
I'm just manifesting." I'm like, "Well,

3602
01:59:36,791 --> 01:59:37,375
good luck with that."

3603
01:59:38,375 --> 01:59:43,166
Yeah, absolutely. Manifestation is

3604
01:59:43,166 --> 01:59:46,625
execution with extra mindfulness. That's

3605
01:59:46,625 --> 01:59:47,375
all I can really say.

3606
01:59:48,333 --> 01:59:49,416
Like, execution with intent.

3607
01:59:50,375 --> 01:59:52,291
Manifestation is execution with intent.

3608
01:59:52,916 --> 01:59:54,708
To call it anything else

3609
01:59:54,708 --> 01:59:58,083
is no, it's manifestation is not writing

3610
01:59:58,083 --> 01:59:59,708
stuff down in the book and

3611
01:59:59,708 --> 02:00:00,791
praying that happens. It's

3612
02:00:01,500 --> 02:00:03,625
doing the actions to get to that spot,

3613
02:00:04,291 --> 02:00:05,833
constantly, day in, day

3614
02:00:05,833 --> 02:00:06,750
out, what's discipline.

3615
02:00:08,458 --> 02:00:09,750
Even if you get punched in

3616
02:00:09,750 --> 02:00:11,708
the face, you still keep going.

3617
02:00:12,625 --> 02:00:14,958
I'd also add that it's like a certainty

3618
02:00:14,958 --> 02:00:18,750
in your destiny. I am

3619
02:00:18,750 --> 02:00:19,458
going to do this thing

3620
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:21,416
and visualizing all the steps and then

3621
02:00:21,416 --> 02:00:22,625
taking the steps, but that

3622
02:00:22,625 --> 02:00:24,541
certainty that this really

3623
02:00:24,541 --> 02:00:28,291
can happen to you. You as that

3624
02:00:28,291 --> 02:00:30,791
20-year-old can really imagine you one

3625
02:00:30,791 --> 02:00:31,625
day sending satellites

3626
02:00:31,625 --> 02:00:34,583
to space. You have to know that that is

3627
02:00:34,583 --> 02:00:35,583
your future. That is

3628
02:00:35,583 --> 02:00:37,083
your destiny. I think that's

3629
02:00:37,083 --> 02:00:38,166
one of the most powerful parts of

3630
02:00:38,166 --> 02:00:41,333
manifestation. But if you don't visualize

3631
02:00:41,333 --> 02:00:42,375
the steps and take the

3632
02:00:42,375 --> 02:00:45,500
steps, then it's just a dream that you

3633
02:00:45,500 --> 02:00:48,000
once had that you never

3634
02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:50,208
realized. The way I see destiny

3635
02:00:50,500 --> 02:00:56,083
is this. Imagine being at a mountain

3636
02:00:56,083 --> 02:00:59,083
valley and destiny is the

3637
02:00:59,083 --> 02:01:00,583
other side of that valley,

3638
02:01:00,583 --> 02:01:02,833
the mountains in the distance, but

3639
02:01:02,833 --> 02:01:04,291
between the two mountains,

3640
02:01:04,291 --> 02:01:06,000
it's a massive dense forest.

3641
02:01:06,708 --> 02:01:08,166
It is your job to go through that forest

3642
02:01:08,166 --> 02:01:09,250
onto that other mountain

3643
02:01:09,250 --> 02:01:10,958
and climb up it. However,

3644
02:01:11,208 --> 02:01:13,000
if you're never climbing and going

3645
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:14,416
through that forest, you're never going

3646
02:01:14,416 --> 02:01:15,416
to meet your destiny

3647
02:01:15,583 --> 02:01:21,250
and that's just a waste of time. One of

3648
02:01:21,250 --> 02:01:23,791
the things that upsets

3649
02:01:23,791 --> 02:01:25,416
me the most is meeting

3650
02:01:27,208 --> 02:01:30,500
individuals who know what their calling

3651
02:01:30,500 --> 02:01:32,708
is, who aren't exerting

3652
02:01:32,708 --> 02:01:33,666
agency on their lives.

3653
02:01:34,291 --> 02:01:37,083
It makes me very emotional seeing that

3654
02:01:37,083 --> 02:01:38,916
and it frustrates me

3655
02:01:38,916 --> 02:01:39,750
tremendously, especially if

3656
02:01:39,791 --> 02:01:41,291
it's somebody that I care

3657
02:01:41,291 --> 02:01:43,041
about. Do you feel the same?

3658
02:01:44,916 --> 02:01:47,416
Well, I can say that

3659
02:01:49,375 --> 02:01:53,500
having high agency is pursuing an

3660
02:01:53,500 --> 02:01:54,833
ambitious project or

3661
02:01:54,833 --> 02:01:56,125
ambitious goal isn't for everyone.

3662
02:01:56,583 --> 02:01:59,666
I understand people who want to play a

3663
02:01:59,666 --> 02:02:01,500
safe path in life. Being

3664
02:02:01,500 --> 02:02:03,916
a founder means you're an

3665
02:02:03,916 --> 02:02:08,458
anomaly. If everyone was a founder,

3666
02:02:08,458 --> 02:02:10,291
society wouldn't run. We

3667
02:02:10,291 --> 02:02:12,458
need people to go the safe

3668
02:02:12,458 --> 02:02:13,916
path because it's people that go the safe

3669
02:02:13,916 --> 02:02:14,833
path that really makes

3670
02:02:14,833 --> 02:02:16,041
sure society runs. Founders

3671
02:02:16,166 --> 02:02:18,041
change the outcome and the dynamics of

3672
02:02:18,041 --> 02:02:19,791
society, but ultimately the

3673
02:02:19,791 --> 02:02:21,250
backbone of society is not us.

3674
02:02:21,250 --> 02:02:22,875
The backbone of society is the

3675
02:02:22,875 --> 02:02:24,250
people who play the safe path.

3676
02:02:25,750 --> 02:02:29,208
I was just going to say, I don't mean

3677
02:02:29,208 --> 02:02:30,208
specifically to the

3678
02:02:30,208 --> 02:02:31,333
founder journey. Somebody that

3679
02:02:32,333 --> 02:02:33,875
knows they want to be a musician, but

3680
02:02:33,875 --> 02:02:34,791
they're just too afraid to

3681
02:02:34,791 --> 02:02:36,083
start, or somebody that knows

3682
02:02:36,083 --> 02:02:38,875
they want to be an engineer, but they

3683
02:02:38,875 --> 02:02:40,625
don't think they're smart

3684
02:02:40,625 --> 02:02:44,875
enough. I mean that not just

3685
02:02:44,875 --> 02:02:46,333
specific to the founder journey. In

3686
02:02:46,333 --> 02:02:48,125
general, that's something

3687
02:02:48,125 --> 02:02:49,958
that I see all the time. It's

3688
02:02:49,958 --> 02:02:51,541
a problem I don't know how to solve. If I

3689
02:02:51,541 --> 02:02:53,000
could solve that problem,

3690
02:02:53,000 --> 02:02:54,125
I would feel tremendously

3691
02:02:54,166 --> 02:02:57,083
fulfilled. Do you have any

3692
02:02:57,083 --> 02:02:59,333
thoughts on that specifically?

3693
02:03:00,166 --> 02:03:02,416
I see it, but ultimately it's you either

3694
02:03:02,416 --> 02:03:05,166
do it or you don't. I mean to be honest,

3695
02:03:05,833 --> 02:03:07,416
sometimes I get people asking me, "Should

3696
02:03:07,416 --> 02:03:08,000
I be a founder? Should I

3697
02:03:08,000 --> 02:03:08,916
take a job?" or something like

3698
02:03:08,916 --> 02:03:11,458
that. I'm like, "Well, here are the pros,

3699
02:03:11,458 --> 02:03:12,708
here are the cons." But

3700
02:03:12,708 --> 02:03:16,333
making decisions in life is one

3701
02:03:16,333 --> 02:03:20,041
of the few luxuries that we have and the

3702
02:03:20,041 --> 02:03:20,791
four and three freedoms that

3703
02:03:20,791 --> 02:03:24,041
we have. It's not my job to

3704
02:03:24,083 --> 02:03:25,750
take that away from you. It's up to you

3705
02:03:25,750 --> 02:03:28,500
to execute it and to do it. I can give

3706
02:03:28,500 --> 02:03:29,625
you information, but I

3707
02:03:30,166 --> 02:03:33,250
can't make you do it. Of course, of

3708
02:03:33,250 --> 02:03:35,916
course. Understandably so.

3709
02:03:36,750 --> 02:03:38,416
Is there anything that you

3710
02:03:38,416 --> 02:03:43,458
use to make yourself better at doing

3711
02:03:43,458 --> 02:03:44,333
these ambitious things?

3712
02:03:44,541 --> 02:03:45,208
From a lot of founders,

3713
02:03:45,208 --> 02:03:47,583
I hear manifestation. Is there any other

3714
02:03:47,583 --> 02:03:51,458
key tools or principles or

3715
02:03:51,458 --> 02:03:53,083
values that you hold dear that

3716
02:03:53,541 --> 02:03:54,791
has enabled you to get

3717
02:03:54,791 --> 02:03:56,666
as far as you have so far?

3718
02:04:00,208 --> 02:04:02,041
Well, one always has a set of core values

3719
02:04:02,041 --> 02:04:02,916
that they remain

3720
02:04:02,916 --> 02:04:06,625
deeply integral to. Never

3721
02:04:08,000 --> 02:04:09,791
change your core selves, never change

3722
02:04:09,791 --> 02:04:12,583
your core values. But

3723
02:04:12,583 --> 02:04:14,041
beyond that, I think you're just

3724
02:04:14,041 --> 02:04:17,458
really overthinking it. There really

3725
02:04:17,458 --> 02:04:19,416
isn't a point of getting

3726
02:04:19,416 --> 02:04:20,541
the newest note taking that.

3727
02:04:21,125 --> 02:04:24,208
Or getting the newest note taking app or

3728
02:04:24,208 --> 02:04:25,708
setting a new schedule for

3729
02:04:25,708 --> 02:04:27,958
yourself or doing all these

3730
02:04:27,958 --> 02:04:30,250
productivity hacks. You either do it or

3731
02:04:30,250 --> 02:04:32,375
you don't. At the end of

3732
02:04:32,375 --> 02:04:33,333
the day, you just do it.

3733
02:04:36,250 --> 02:04:38,208
There's not really a secret hack that

3734
02:04:38,208 --> 02:04:40,125
makes things easier. You can

3735
02:04:40,125 --> 02:04:41,708
have all the tools you need. You

3736
02:04:41,708 --> 02:04:44,083
can have all of the mindful practices or

3737
02:04:44,083 --> 02:04:45,500
thought processes that you

3738
02:04:45,500 --> 02:04:47,000
need, but if you don't do it,

3739
02:04:47,041 --> 02:04:48,500
the outcome is still the same.

3740
02:04:53,000 --> 02:04:56,000
I think that is a good takeaway from

3741
02:04:56,000 --> 02:04:59,583
your... To understand Ed

3742
02:04:59,583 --> 02:05:00,958
and understand Ed's success,

3743
02:05:00,958 --> 02:05:03,291
Ed just does the thing. That's the TLDR,

3744
02:05:03,666 --> 02:05:05,375
right? Just go do the thing

3745
02:05:05,375 --> 02:05:06,708
and stop talking about it.

3746
02:05:06,708 --> 02:05:08,625
Stop thinking about it. Just go execute.

3747
02:05:09,625 --> 02:05:10,666
Some people say, "I

3748
02:05:10,666 --> 02:05:11,375
don't want to talk about it,

3749
02:05:11,375 --> 02:05:13,625
but if I talk about it, then it makes me

3750
02:05:13,625 --> 02:05:14,541
the small way to do it."

3751
02:05:14,541 --> 02:05:16,166
But that's a bloody problem.

3752
02:05:17,041 --> 02:05:19,333
Do the thing. Just do the thing that you

3753
02:05:19,333 --> 02:05:21,541
said you do. That solves the

3754
02:05:21,541 --> 02:05:22,666
problem. If you don't do the

3755
02:05:22,666 --> 02:05:24,250
thing that you said you do, well, that's

3756
02:05:24,250 --> 02:05:26,166
not anyone's fault. That

3757
02:05:26,166 --> 02:05:27,083
didn't happen. You just

3758
02:05:27,083 --> 02:05:28,916
didn't do the thing. Just didn't do the

3759
02:05:28,916 --> 02:05:31,500
thing. Ed, before we wrap

3760
02:05:31,500 --> 02:05:33,166
up, anything else you'd like

3761
02:05:33,166 --> 02:05:37,208
to share with aspiring young founders or

3762
02:05:37,208 --> 02:05:38,166
folks looking to work in

3763
02:05:38,166 --> 02:05:40,916
space or anybody just at home,

3764
02:05:40,916 --> 02:05:43,375
a layman, just enjoying watching any

3765
02:05:43,375 --> 02:05:44,000
message, party

3766
02:05:44,000 --> 02:05:44,791
message you'd like to share?

3767
02:05:45,750 --> 02:05:47,916
Do just do the thing, man. If you want to

3768
02:05:47,916 --> 02:05:49,333
do something, just do it right now.

3769
02:05:50,166 --> 02:05:52,666
There are no prerequisites in life to

3770
02:05:52,666 --> 02:05:54,208
doing anything. Almost no

3771
02:05:54,208 --> 02:05:55,166
prerequisites in life to

3772
02:05:55,166 --> 02:05:58,875
doing anything. The prereqs are there to

3773
02:05:58,875 --> 02:06:00,541
make it less painful to do

3774
02:06:00,541 --> 02:06:01,416
something. But if you can

3775
02:06:01,416 --> 02:06:03,750
tolerate any amount of pain, then

3776
02:06:03,750 --> 02:06:05,125
anything is within reach,

3777
02:06:05,125 --> 02:06:07,750
really. And if you just jump out

3778
02:06:07,750 --> 02:06:09,625
and start doing the thing, there's not

3779
02:06:09,625 --> 02:06:10,541
really anything that can stop you.

3780
02:06:11,041 --> 02:06:14,500
All right, Ed, it has been an absolute

3781
02:06:14,500 --> 02:06:15,416
pleasure having you on.

3782
02:06:15,666 --> 02:06:16,541
Thank you so much for taking the

3783
02:06:16,541 --> 02:06:18,166
time to join us. Absolutely. Thank you.