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Chas:
The absence of plot does not mean the absence of tension.

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Chas:
Hi, I'm Chas Fisher.

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Stu:
And I'm Stu Willis.

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Chas:
And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two emerging filmmakers try to work

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Chas:
out what makes great screenplays work.

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Stu:
And in this episode, we are going to be talking about the four-part Netflix

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Stu:
series, Adolescence. In a way, this is a one-shot or a one-a-shot,

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Stu:
as my joke is, but it's about all four episodes, so four-shot? I don't know.

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Stu:
And the reason I wanted to do this, and it's obviously a series that's sparked

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Stu:
a lot of conversation, right?

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Stu:
And I'm interested in the craft tools that the show has used to,

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Stu:
one, be so compelling to watch, but two, turn that compulsive watching into

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Stu:
conversation. Does that make sense?

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Chas:
Absolutely. I would just warn everyone that we very much wanted to read scripts,

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Chas:
but they're still not yet available.

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Chas:
I'm sure they will be at least some available come awards season.

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Chas:
So we're less looking about on the page tools.

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Chas:
And while I think we'll obviously talk about the fact that they're all shot

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Chas:
is in one take, like each individual episode is one continuous shot.

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Chas:
While we'll talk about that, I think what we're going to really discuss is what is the effect of that?

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Chas:
What is the intention of that? What are the constraints that it put on the writing,

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Chas:
on the writers, and what tools, in particular I'm looking at,

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Chas:
what tools did they bring to make that really work?

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Chas:
So, I think we're sort of related in what our intention is here.

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Chas:
I'm going to be somewhat selfish and say that I am writing a script that is

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Chas:
sort of a contained chamber piece about a leadership meeting and hubris and

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Chas:
faith and all those kind of things.

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Chas:
So for me, I really wanted to come into this going less, how do I write this

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Chas:
as if it's in one shot and more, how do I harness the power that they have found?

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Chas:
Coming from it being in real time?

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Stu:
Look, when I first mentioned this to you, because I watched the first episode,

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Stu:
it was like, I think we should do adolescence.

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Stu:
It wasn't really about the one-up, right? Every episode is shot as one shot

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Stu:
for those who haven't seen it.

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Stu:
But hopefully if you listen to this, you've seen it.

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Stu:
It was because that decision meant they had to use craft tools like French scenes

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Stu:
and the mastery of POV and other things that we're going to talk about to kind of make it work.

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Stu:
So, I think when I actually first watched it, it was less about why is this a conversation?

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Stu:
It was more like, ooh, you know, we could use this to talk about narrative point

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Stu:
of view and the point of view character per scene, you know,

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Stu:
who is the character, the protagonist of the scene and French scenes,

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Stu:
and I would have been happy.

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Stu:
And then when I got to the end, I'm like, ah, there's actually this bigger question

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Stu:
about like the show and how those narrative techniques have made it such a conversation piece.

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Stu:
And so I think this episode is going to be really divided into two ha's,

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Stu:
us talking about the kind of the macro, talking about the structure of the four

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Stu:
episodes, how they work together and how I think, how we think they kind of

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Stu:
lead us to this point at the end of the show that we kind of want to talk about it.

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Stu:
And then I think we're going to deep dive into those tools.

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Chas:
Yeah.

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Stu:
Right.

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Chas:
And before we do, we put out a call to our amazing patrons to see if they had

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Chas:
anything that they wanted us to cover.

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Chas:
Our patrons as always bring you more draft zero more

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Chas:
often and we got questions from julian

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Chas:
one of which was how do they stop the camera becoming a protagonist and obviously

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Chas:
i think some of that will drift into directorial commentary but i do think there's

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Chas:
uh storytelling like narrative tools that they've applied as well julian also

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Chas:
welcomed any comments we might have on sound design.

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Chas:
And then Sandra, I'm not going to read out all of Sandra's comments. Yeah.

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Chas:
Amazing and beautiful comments. Thank you, Sandra. But I just wanted to highlight

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Chas:
certain things. And this is me editorializing or rather excerpting to suit my

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Chas:
own narrative purposes.

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Chas:
But she said the real time made it feel more

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Chas:
authentic and captured a range of people caught

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Chas:
up in the events and drawn into the

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Chas:
mayhem feeling fenced in overwhelmed and all of that created a visceral reality

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Chas:
and the reason why i've highlighted all those words is that i think this is

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Chas:
quite clearly a melodrama uh i was up until.

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Stu:
Emma and i watched this over two nights and we were up on the on the sunday

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Stu:
night after we watched it we were up to 3 a.m arguing about whether or not it

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Stu:
was a melodrama i mean I mean.

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Chas:
Is Emma available to come in and put her points across, or are you going to paraphrase?

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Stu:
I mean, she's wrong, so I'm not going to...

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Stu:
I'm not going to give you the airtime. Look, no, I'm being somewhat facetious about that.

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Stu:
And I think it's because, one, we had done a really long episode,

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Stu:
a three-hour episode, with Stephen Cleary on melodrama and passive protagonists.

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Stu:
And that has colored our ways of thinking about melodrama.

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Stu:
But we've also subsequently done other episodes on drama.

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Chas:
Yeah, sure.

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Stu:
But I think we'll save that discussion about melodrama until after we've kind of introduced the film.

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Chas:
Okay.

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Stu:
But I think it's worth you breaking down the key learnings of that melodrama

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Stu:
episode. And we also did an episode, which I haven't re-listened to yet, on Oners.

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Chas:
Yeah. So, I mean, broadly, and feel free to chip in here, Stu,

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Chas:
we were being guided by Stephen Cleary's definitions of what constituted a melodrama.

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Chas:
And I think it's really helpful because it was trying to remove the pejorative

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Chas:
nature to it, the stigma around it.

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Chas:
And you used the word passive protagonist and Stephen in that episode corrected

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Chas:
us and said, rather than passive, which has become a loaded term, he preferred still.

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Chas:
And what I love about this in the context of adolescence is all the things I'm

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Chas:
about to list, I think are clearly dramatized or utilized in adolescence.

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Chas:
So, a melodrama story in contrast

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Chas:
to the hero's journey story is about

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Chas:
ordinary people going through massive life-changing events in the face of which

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Chas:
they are either powerless or there is a massive cost to taking action and equally

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Chas:
a massive cost to endurance.

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Chas:
And so because these melodramatic stories are less inherently plotted and more focused on.

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Chas:
The endurance or the cost of taking action, they become inherently more character-driven.

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Chas:
And then in relation to one as we looked at single one-er sequences rather than

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Chas:
whole stories in Goodfellas, Tintin, and Children of Men.

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Chas:
And while I'm going to be fascinated to get my hand on the adolescent scripts,

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Chas:
and maybe we'll do a back matter when they're finally out,

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Chas:
none of those three scripts really drew attention to

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Chas:
the fact that they were going to be shot as

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Chas:
one-ers and instead we focused on

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Chas:
how the writers were giving the intentionality and feeling on the page of shooting

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Chas:
as a one-er and we discussed the words that came up repeatedly were immediacy

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Chas:
and urgency one thing that we didn't discuss but i think stems from that is

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Chas:
stakes when something's being shot in real time,

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Chas:
I think you feel like narratively you can't escape.

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Chas:
There won't be a cut to three weeks later. There's a kind of sense of terror

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Chas:
that comes with watching something in real time.

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Chas:
And I've said real time a few times, but you made the observation in that one

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Chas:
episode that it's about unity in time of plot, character, camera,

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Chas:
all these things coming together and happening at once.

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Chas:
And to me, that's what I hope we actually dive into when we're looking at the

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Chas:
macro stuff and the micro tools is they've made a decision to have unity and

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Chas:
time in their narrative.

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Chas:
And that comes with benefits, obviously, because we're all talking about it.

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Chas:
And most of us found it to be extremely powerful experience.

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Chas:
I'm talking about adolescence here. But then with that comes constraints that

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Chas:
I think adolescence just seems to be so well executed that it shrugs off those constraints.

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Stu:
And maybe the answer is, you know, to the question of, you know,

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Stu:
why is this film so watched and why are people talking about it is just because

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Stu:
it's really, really, really, really, really, really exceptionally good.

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Stu:
And, but I can't, you know, I mean, this is just really how my brain works.

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Stu:
Looking at something and going, that is exceptionally good, to me doesn't help

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Stu:
me as an artist. In the same way that I've got friends that are like shrug off

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Stu:
and go, I don't think you can learn these things.

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Stu:
Right? You're kind of born with it. And I'm like, well, that's a really useful

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Stu:
thing because I don't know whether I'm born with it or not.

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Stu:
All I can do is keep on applying myself.

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Stu:
Right. But we should kind of summarize what adolescence is about and just to remind people.

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Excerpts:
That's the least. What are you looking for?

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Excerpts:
You're making a big mistake. He's only a kid. Dad, I haven't done anything.

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He's a good kid. Jamie, I want you to listen carefully.

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Excerpts:
What's going on? I'm going to start off with asking you. Do you know a girl called Katie Leonard?

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Excerpts:
Yeah. Describe each other as friends then.

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Excerpts:
Is she dead then? Why would you ask her?

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Excerpts:
So do you think it would be okay if we speak about it? I haven't done anything.

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Excerpts:
You're a good dad a great dad he hasn't been found guilty he's been accused.

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Chas:
How would you like to tackle it? Should we just summarize what the four episodes are?

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Chas:
Or do we want to go one episode at a time and talk about genre and central dramatic questions?

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Stu:
I think we kind of summarize the whole- I mean, I'm just going to read the Wikipedia

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Stu:
summary. And then we can kind of talk about the four episodes.

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Chas:
All right.

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Stu:
So, Adolescence is a show about a 13-year-old schoolboy who's accused of murder.

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Stu:
Now, that is something that you kind of catch up to in the first episode.

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Stu:
So it is one of those shows that

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Stu:
I do think rewards the less that you know about it going in, the better.

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Stu:
Because part of the structure of the first episode is leading us to that point about the accusation.

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Stu:
That said, the first episode is very compelling, even if you know he's about

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Stu:
to be accused, because it's almost the inciting incident of the first episode.

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Chas:
I watched it with Anna, and I had read enough about it that I knew what the

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Chas:
outcome of the accusation was, and Anna didn't. And so Anna was surprised by

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Chas:
the reveal at the end, whereas I was not surprised, but did not find it any less affecting.

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Stu:
I was surprised by the reveal and we'll get to that.

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Stu:
But this is me riffing on the Wikipedia summary, which is obviously a crown

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Stu:
source kind of summary, which is like in an English town, armed police raid

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Stu:
a family home and arrest Jamie Miller, 13 year old boy and suspicious of murder of a classmate, Katie.

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Stu:
Jamie is processed and held at a police station for questioning and then remanded

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Stu:
in custody to secure training center.

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Stu:
So, he is held at police station for questioning is the first episode.

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Stu:
The remanded in custody at Secure Training Center is something we,

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Stu:
is referred to in the second episode and we don't actually see until the third episode.

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Stu:
Investigations at Jamie's school and interviews by a forensic psychologist undercovers

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Stu:
Jamie's view towards women.

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Stu:
That's interesting because this is skipping over the episode that is completely

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Stu:
focused on Jamie's school, which is episode two. So it's the detectives going

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Stu:
to the school to find the murder weapon to make their case against Jamie stronger.

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Stu:
The third episode is the interview of the forensic psychologist.

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Stu:
And then the fourth episode is, as Wikipedia explains, at home,

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Stu:
Jamie's family deals with the community backlash against them as they work together

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Stu:
to cope with Jamie's arrest and subsequent detention.

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Stu:
So this is a show that does a couple of, it's got some tension in it, right?

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Stu:
In just in the concept. So it's a show which every episode is more or less an

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Stu:
hour of real time, one shot, but every episode jumps time quite substantially.

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Stu:
So, it actually, the whole show takes over 13 months.

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Stu:
So, it's not a show where it's four hours in real time.

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Stu:
It's one hour, jump to the next day, jump to, I think it's a couple of weeks

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Stu:
or quite a bit later, and then it's 13 months later.

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Chas:
I think it was, from memory, day one, day three, and then I think it's either

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Chas:
like three or four months later, and then it's- Seven. Seven,

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Chas:
there you go. And then it's 13 months later.

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Stu:
Yeah. And so, that's one of the tensions of the show, right?

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Stu:
And one of the other tensions for me of the show is the one-shot,

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Stu:
to me, I know it's a very personal thing, feeling contrived, right?

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Stu:
To me, one-shots, and I think at some point I'm going to do a video essay about

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Stu:
1917 being the greatest video game adaptation of all time,

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Stu:
because the single shot in 1917 means it's got to use kind of narrative aesthetics

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Stu:
of video games to kind of get its characters through things, right? Right.

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Stu:
19, this manages to avoid some of that game stuff. And I actually have talked

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Stu:
about that in the behind the scenes.

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Stu:
There's a drone shot where they attach the camera to the drone,

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Stu:
it flies off at the end of second episode two.

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Stu:
And that's originally, it was scripted to be a shot that kind of goes back through

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Stu:
the school, the empty school.

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Stu:
And they decided against that because it was going to be feel too video gamey.

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Stu:
And also I think there is that danger of those long single shots in a school

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Stu:
are going to be reminiscent of Gus Van Zandt's Elephant, which is a film that

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Stu:
is actually somewhat, to me, a precursor to this, right? In terms of it's a why done it.

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Chas:
But let's, so, let's.

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Chas:
Just to be super clear, the 1917 had massive time jumps within it.

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Chas:
So, it sort of wrestled with- I think he falls asleep or is knocked unconscious

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Chas:
twice so that time can pass.

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Stu:
Yeah, video game-y.

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Chas:
Yeah, like it was really wrestling against its constraints in the way that I

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Chas:
think by choosing to have- We can tell a story over a long time span,

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Chas:
but that each individual episode is, you know, 40 or 50 minutes in real time

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Chas:
gives them some real luxury in that structure.

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Stu:
And I will say the other tension in it, and the reviewer on Letterboxd put it

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Stu:
better than I did when I was trying to explain it, is it's a social realism

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Stu:
melodrama, which for Emma was like, how does that work?

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Stu:
Right? But I'm going to get to the melodrama thing because I think the melodramatic

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Stu:
elements don't actually truly emerge until the second episode.

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Stu:
But I think they're established in the first episode because the show,

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Stu:
the first episode, opens with the cop getting a message from his son talking

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Stu:
about his son wanting to skip school.

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Excerpts:
More than that, um, have that bad stomach thing again.

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Excerpts:
Time is it? 6am, that commitment. Don't want to go, does he?

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Excerpts:
Yeah, he knows Tracy will say no, and I'm the soft touch.

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Stu:
So one of the important aspects of a melodrama, I guess we're going to start

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Stu:
unpacking that, is which is you mentioned that Stephen talks about that it's ordinary characters.

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Stu:
It's ordinary characters in extraordinary circumstances.

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Stu:
That other shows, even detective shows, think of something like Mindhunter.

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Stu:
He is an exceptionally gifted detective in Mindhunter, right?

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Stu:
He is the one that is working out how to use forensic psychology to catch criminals, right?

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Stu:
This isn't interested in these detectives being extraordinarily good.

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Stu:
They're revealed to be good cops, but they're also revealed to be kind of given

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Stu:
the case on a platter in a way, right? They get, they have very damning evidence.

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Stu:
It's not them, you know, being Poiro about it, you know, they're just ordinary

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Stu:
cops and it's already connecting them to the ordinary lives.

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Stu:
But the, the structure of the first episode.

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Stu:
And so I'm interested in the central dramatic questions of the show and how

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Stu:
they shift over the four episodes.

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Stu:
Right. I think the first episode is once Jamie is arrested, the question becomes, did he do it?

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Stu:
That is the standard kind of premise question.

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Stu:
And there is another show that I really like called In the Night Of,

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Stu:
which is about a young man being arrested for murder and charged with murder.

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Stu:
And the whole show is interrogating whether or not he did it.

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Stu:
Okay. And that's kind of the, it's the mystery that drives you.

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Stu:
And what's interesting is the adolescent's.

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Stu:
Answers the question of, did Jamie kill this girl with a very definitive yes

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Stu:
at the end of the first episode?

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Stu:
And it shifts the show from being a whodunit to, and in the words of the creator,

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Stu:
Stephen Graham, into a whydunit.

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Stu:
And so, it closes that plot question.

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Stu:
So, the first episode is very compelling to watch. It's a great procedural.

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Stu:
You know, it's got a lot of those procedural beats with the detail that I really

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Stu:
like. and then it has the plot question, but then it does something else.

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Stu:
Once it answers the plot question, it sits in the emotional event of the episode.

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Stu:
And the emotional event is, you know, I mean, I'm just reminding for people

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Stu:
that have seen it, and if you haven't seen it, spoilers, but please just go

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Stu:
and watch it, is obviously Jamie has his dad acting, has his,

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Stu:
what's the particular term?

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Stu:
Appropriate adult, right? And then the detectives reveal that they have footage

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Stu:
of Jamie stabbing this girl, right?

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Stu:
And then we sit with Jamie and his dad, Eddie, right?

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Stu:
As Eddie kind of begins to realize that his son actually did this crime.

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Stu:
So the emotional event is him realizing, right, it kind of pushes them apart at that point.

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Stu:
I think that's a very clear emotional event and they have made a decision to

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Stu:
sit in this because the show is going to be about the impact of what Jamie has

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Stu:
done on the people around him, the ripple effects of that.

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Excerpts:
I'm terminating this interview at 7.12am. Let's go.

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Excerpts:
Oh, my God.

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Excerpts:
I'll give you two a minute.

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Excerpts:
All right.

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Chas:
Can I make some observations about episode one?

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Stu:
Yeah, of course.

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Chas:
I agree completely that it is, that the central dramatic question is, did Jamie do it?

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Chas:
And it is by far the most plotted of all four episodes.

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Stu:
Agreed.

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Chas:
There is a lot that happens. The point of view shifts repeatedly and very quickly.

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Stu:
It's thriller kind of narrative point of view shifting, right?

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Chas:
Yeah, but one of the observations I'd make is that we are very rarely in Jamie's POV in those moments.

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Chas:
And here's some that stood out for me as particular moments.

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Chas:
There's one where they're in the car from after Jamie's been arrested and his

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Chas:
parents are going in a separate car to the police station. So,

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Chas:
he's alone with a social worker and with the detective in the back of the car.

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Chas:
And I think that is in Jamie's POV.

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Excerpts:
I haven't done anything. I haven't. Hey, hey, hey. We'll get into that conversation

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Excerpts:
when we get to the station, okay?

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Excerpts:
This is not the place to be speaking about anything like that. All right?

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Excerpts:
Save all of this for when we get there. And say another word.

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Excerpts:
I'm going to suggest something. When asked, you ask for a solicitor, okay?

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Excerpts:
Hey, you can speak to your parents about it when you get to the station.

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Excerpts:
It won't make you seem more guilty.

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Excerpts:
Just for your best interests, all right?

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Excerpts:
Jamie, this is Derek. Derek will be your appropriate adult for the purpose of

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Excerpts:
this arrest, all right? Hey, Jamie.

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Excerpts:
I'm from Doncaster Social Services, all right? Once you get there,

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Excerpts:
the custody sergeant is going to ask you whether you want to keep Derek on or

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Excerpts:
whether you want someone else, or you can even have one of your parents.

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Excerpts:
It'll just be for your searches, bloods, any time you're talking to your solicitor,

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Excerpts:
that sort of thing, okay?

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Excerpts:
We won't prejudice your case, whatever you decide, mate. All right?

298
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Excerpts:
Okay, Jamie.

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Chas:
But the, when he's being processed in the, um, at the front desk,

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Chas:
the camera is often behind Jamie pointing at the, and the point of view character

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Chas:
is pretty much this sort of administrative police person.

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Chas:
Yeah. Similarly, one of the really grueling scenes is when they,

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Chas:
the, uh, detects, and Jamie's 13, the police officers have to strip search Jamie

304
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Chas:
and take forensic evidence.

305
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Chas:
And in that moment, they hold really tightly on his father's face while we know

306
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Chas:
what his father is looking at and we hear the detectives,

307
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Chas:
the process that they're talking Jamie through and what he's going through.

308
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Chas:
But we're not in Jamie's point of view at all.

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Chas:
We can't even see him in that moment.

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Chas:
We've got lots of point of view moments with the detectives,

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Chas:
with the nurse character, with the lawyer coming and going.

312
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Chas:
And then once we're in the interrogation, I still think we're almost more in

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Chas:
the father's point of view.

314
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Chas:
I mean, you could say it's fairly even in that, but the emotional event is the

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Chas:
father's emotional event. at the culmination of that scene.

316
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Chas:
So while I agree that it is definitely a procedural in the true sense of the

317
00:23:07,660 --> 00:23:14,020
Chas:
word in that there's lots of procedure, but the procedure isn't about finding more clues.

318
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Chas:
None of the procedures that we see are about discovering whether Jamie did it or not.

319
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Chas:
They know before they've even arrested him. They've seen that footage and they know.

320
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Chas:
We don't know as the audience, but what we're watching is the procedure of how

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Chas:
to arrest a 13 year old boy not the procedure of finding out whether that 13

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Chas:
year old boy is guilty or not.

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Excerpts:
You had your breakfast son no okay

324
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Excerpts:
i am it's 6 31 authorizing your detention

325
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Excerpts:
so that the officers can preserve evidence by questioning you

326
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Excerpts:
about the offense you are suspected of you can

327
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Excerpts:
be held at this police station for 24 hours your detention

328
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Excerpts:
here will be reviewed by an independent inspector on a regular basis so that

329
00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:00,460
Excerpts:
you your solicitor or your appropriate adult can make representations about

330
00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:08,040
Excerpts:
your detention at that review you understood all that son yeah okay good lad

331
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,100
Excerpts:
right let's get you to a cell so.

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Stu:
It's kind of interesting man and this comes to this tension that you've talked

333
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:17,700
Stu:
about it being a very heavily plotted episode but at the same time you're you're

334
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:21,780
Stu:
saying it's not about it's about the impact of the procedure yeah of

335
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:27,320
Stu:
arresting a 13 year old on everyone in that station yes because there is a detective who even says,

336
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Stu:
man, juvenile cases are the worst, right?

337
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Excerpts:
I hate juvenile cases, man. No one likes them.

338
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Chas:
So this is focusing on the effect that this,

339
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Chas:
procedure is having on all the characters.

340
00:24:42,670 --> 00:24:47,930
Chas:
On Jamie as well, I'm not saying not, but it's not people trying to figure out

341
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Chas:
whether Jamie has done it or not.

342
00:24:49,330 --> 00:24:50,050
Stu:
It's us.

343
00:24:50,410 --> 00:24:54,590
Chas:
That is the central dramatic question for the audience, but that is what none

344
00:24:54,590 --> 00:24:56,910
Chas:
of the characters are trying to do, except the father.

345
00:24:57,710 --> 00:24:59,310
Stu:
And the lawyer, right?

346
00:24:59,490 --> 00:24:59,610
Chas:
Yeah.

347
00:24:59,810 --> 00:25:05,010
Stu:
The lawyer is trying to kind of represent him well, even if he goes,

348
00:25:05,110 --> 00:25:07,950
Stu:
oh, they must have some pretty compelling evidence, you know,

349
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Stu:
to be moving as quickly as they did.

350
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Chas:
But the lawyer's opening line is I'm not going to ask you whether you did it or not.

351
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Stu:
Well, I mean, that would be your legal advice, right?

352
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Chas:
I don't know. Here in Australia, we're like, as lawyers, it's like,

353
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Chas:
we don't want to generally play those games. It's better for us to know everything.

354
00:25:24,290 --> 00:25:27,790
Chas:
We can do our job better if we know everything than if our client is lying to us.

355
00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:31,110
Chas:
There are some criminal lawyers who very much, you know, if I don't know,

356
00:25:31,210 --> 00:25:34,710
Chas:
then I can lead the court wherever I want to lead them, essentially.

357
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Stu:
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I feel like we might need to come back to this because

358
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Stu:
it to me is this interesting thing of the first episode is a very classic thriller.

359
00:25:43,690 --> 00:25:47,090
Stu:
You're discombulated, you're with the characters, right?

360
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:51,190
Stu:
You're going through this discombulating experience, you're playing catch up.

361
00:25:51,310 --> 00:25:54,750
Stu:
So there's a lot of these plot questions about like what has happened,

362
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:58,150
Stu:
what is he accused of, you know, all these kinds of questions,

363
00:25:58,310 --> 00:26:00,970
Stu:
which are kind of plot questions, kind of keep us hooked.

364
00:26:00,970 --> 00:26:06,590
Stu:
When, as you say, from a kind of the objective of the cops or the super objective,

365
00:26:06,770 --> 00:26:10,330
Stu:
and it's interesting in an interview with Stephen Graham, he talked about super objective.

366
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:13,670
Stu:
He very much approaches his writing as an actor.

367
00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:19,110
Stu:
They know they've got him, right? So, I guess their question is they're just

368
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:20,950
Stu:
trying to make a good case, right?

369
00:26:21,030 --> 00:26:23,610
Stu:
They're trying to get as much evidence so they can get motivation.

370
00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:27,350
Stu:
That's what they keep on coming back to about- Because they- they clearly want

371
00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:29,950
Stu:
to, you know, and that's going to be about whether this is manslaughter or,

372
00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:33,450
Stu:
or, you know, first degree murder, right?

373
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Stu:
So that's kind of an interesting tension in this episode.

374
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Chas:
So all I'm saying is for a very, very tightly plotted, very genre,

375
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Chas:
feels like a police procedural, they have, interestingly, every single one of

376
00:26:48,220 --> 00:26:51,420
Chas:
those scenes, none of them is actually about whether Jamie did it or not.

377
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Chas:
And the one exception to that is where the father outright asks him before the interview happens.

378
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Excerpts:
I'm going to ask you a watch, okay? No matter what happened,

379
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,780
Excerpts:
no matter what you've done or you haven't done, from what you used to tell me the truth.

380
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,800
Excerpts:
Did you do it?

381
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:14,060
Excerpts:
No.

382
00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:17,360
Excerpts:
Promise.

383
00:27:20,020 --> 00:27:20,440
Excerpts:
Promise.

384
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:24,020
Excerpts:
Okay.

385
00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:31,940
Stu:
So here's the interesting question for me, because I think the other three episodes are different.

386
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,940
Stu:
Who is the protagonist of this episode?

387
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,580
Chas:
I genuinely think it shifts. I think, obviously,

388
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:45,700
Chas:
the show opens with the detectives and there's very much scenes where the detectives

389
00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:50,540
Chas:
feel like they take the first action in that sense.

390
00:27:50,540 --> 00:27:57,080
Chas:
They are driving the plot because Jamie and Eddie are powerless, really.

391
00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:01,120
Chas:
Everything just happens to them. They are not in charge of the, the plot.

392
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:10,600
Chas:
Uh, I think that closing scene, I do think it's about Eddie is the main character.

393
00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:15,980
Chas:
Cause what we revealed at the end is that Jamie, Jamie knows what he's done.

394
00:28:17,170 --> 00:28:19,050
Chas:
What Jamie doesn't know is that there's footage.

395
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:19,750
Stu:
Yes.

396
00:28:20,030 --> 00:28:22,250
Chas:
Jamie doesn't know what they know, what they have on him.

397
00:28:22,550 --> 00:28:27,250
Stu:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. They're playing kind of- He's playing catch-up.

398
00:28:27,550 --> 00:28:31,910
Stu:
I think you're probably right that Eddie's the protagonist, but it's an interesting question.

399
00:28:33,050 --> 00:28:36,590
Stu:
It's very- What I would use the phrase micro-plotted episode.

400
00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:40,010
Stu:
And what's interesting about jumping to the Force episode is that is actually

401
00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:45,290
Stu:
a hero, kind of a hero's journey or a Harmon story wheel in its structure.

402
00:28:45,290 --> 00:28:48,050
Stu:
Structure even though it feels the most character driven and it's actually got

403
00:28:48,050 --> 00:28:50,770
Stu:
the most conventional kind of structure to it

404
00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:53,590
Stu:
yeah and what's interesting about the second episode and i think we should get

405
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:56,830
Stu:
into that is the first episode is driven by an audience

406
00:28:56,830 --> 00:29:01,030
Stu:
asking did jamie do it and the closest character i guess what it is is the closest

407
00:29:01,030 --> 00:29:05,030
Stu:
character that he's aligned to the question the audience is asking is eddie

408
00:29:05,030 --> 00:29:09,410
Stu:
so maybe that's why he feels like the protagonist of the first episode because

409
00:29:09,410 --> 00:29:14,330
Stu:
did jamie do it it's kind of a quick i think he believes him but also So he

410
00:29:14,330 --> 00:29:15,770
Stu:
kind of wants to know, I never,

411
00:29:16,110 --> 00:29:17,630
Stu:
we're going to pause here and I'm

412
00:29:17,630 --> 00:29:20,170
Stu:
going to say part of the reason that adolescence, I think appealed to me.

413
00:29:20,490 --> 00:29:22,670
Stu:
And this is why I'm relating to the dad.

414
00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:28,590
Stu:
Both my parents are high school teachers. A student, my mom taught a really rough school.

415
00:29:28,850 --> 00:29:34,790
Stu:
One of the students left their school and stabbed another student to death on the dance floor.

416
00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:39,570
Stu:
And this was in the nineties. And my mom was like, oh yeah, we could always

417
00:29:39,570 --> 00:29:43,810
Stu:
just tell that kid was fucked up. And it's just, you know, a shame that no one

418
00:29:43,810 --> 00:29:45,890
Stu:
could help him in a way that before he hurt someone.

419
00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:51,990
Stu:
I was also in high school in the 90s, and I was the student representative on

420
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:54,430
Stu:
the school council, not the student's representative council,

421
00:29:54,510 --> 00:29:56,070
Stu:
the school council, the governing body of the school.

422
00:29:57,090 --> 00:30:00,350
Stu:
And there was an incident at the school. I'm sure I could talk about it now.

423
00:30:00,350 --> 00:30:05,030
Stu:
It's been like 20 years where a student in what we would call hope economics,

424
00:30:05,270 --> 00:30:12,410
Stu:
home economics, cooking, uh, a girl backed into his knife, uh, is what he claimed.

425
00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:18,090
Stu:
And, but there was a history and the, and the boy was suspended and they kind of did investigation.

426
00:30:18,530 --> 00:30:21,390
Stu:
And there was a history of this boy kind of targeting this girl.

427
00:30:21,530 --> 00:30:27,750
Stu:
Uh, and the long story short of it is that she changed schools and he came back

428
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:30,050
Stu:
to school because his parents were just.

429
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:34,310
Stu:
Adamant that there's no way he could possibly have done anything wrong and they

430
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:37,030
Stu:
fought the school every step of the way.

431
00:30:37,070 --> 00:30:39,170
Stu:
And I think they may even try to take the principal to court,

432
00:30:39,270 --> 00:30:41,590
Stu:
but that was like after I had left.

433
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:47,890
Stu:
Right. And so there's definitely this sense of, I don't think Eddie is the parent

434
00:30:47,890 --> 00:30:51,330
Stu:
that is like, I am just going to defend my child no matter what.

435
00:30:51,870 --> 00:30:57,930
Stu:
He feels conflicted about it, which comes back in episode four, I think.

436
00:30:57,930 --> 00:31:01,910
Chas:
But it would have been a very different but interesting variation on the show

437
00:31:01,910 --> 00:31:07,790
Chas:
if they were exploring the trial without having slam dunk evidence.

438
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:12,930
Stu:
It would be a, yes, but it wouldn't be the show that has the conversation that

439
00:31:12,930 --> 00:31:15,830
Stu:
this has started. I mean- For sure. Yeah.

440
00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:22,670
Stu:
The Night Of is a older character. I think he's- Played by Riz Ahmed.

441
00:31:23,410 --> 00:31:27,230
Chas:
Looks to be in about his 30s, maybe early 20s, late 20s, sorry.

442
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:34,110
Stu:
Yeah. And it's dealing with facts that he's kind of like a racially profiled

443
00:31:34,110 --> 00:31:37,490
Stu:
because he's Pakistani. So, there's dealing with racial elements within New York.

444
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:42,850
Stu:
It's actually a remake of a British show called Criminal Justice.

445
00:31:43,250 --> 00:31:48,170
Stu:
So, I do think the fact that this show becomes more melodramatic and is more

446
00:31:48,170 --> 00:31:51,070
Stu:
interesting in character theme is part of the reason it's had these conversations,

447
00:31:51,070 --> 00:31:53,730
Stu:
because it is designed to create those conversations.

448
00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:59,750
Stu:
The first episode ends with the reveal. He did it, and it is incontrovertible

449
00:31:59,750 --> 00:32:05,290
Stu:
evidence that he murdered her. The question that is, which is put in our mind

450
00:32:05,290 --> 00:32:08,870
Stu:
in the second episode, is the detectives want to know his motivation.

451
00:32:09,150 --> 00:32:13,750
Stu:
The murder weapon, they want his motivation. The murder weapon is the kind of

452
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:16,950
Stu:
external plot device for them to go and understand his psychology.

453
00:32:18,150 --> 00:32:23,710
Excerpts:
Jade, we are really grateful you agreed to talk to us. I agreed to die.

454
00:32:24,710 --> 00:32:26,250
Excerpts:
And I thought I just got pulled off lunch.

455
00:32:27,410 --> 00:32:32,510
Excerpts:
Look, we can tell you that we have arrested one suspect. Sorry. Yeah, Jamie.

456
00:32:33,210 --> 00:32:37,090
Excerpts:
But we need some more information, both on the murder weapon,

457
00:32:37,270 --> 00:32:41,350
Excerpts:
which we don't yet have, and why the suspect did it.

458
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,280
Stu:
And look, I don't work in the British, I mean, A, I'm not a lawyer.

459
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,100
Stu:
I have a law degree, but I'm not a lawyer. B, I don't work in the British criminal justice system.

460
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,760
Stu:
But I looked at them and went, I mean, they're talking about like having the

461
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,020
Stu:
murder weapon and his motivation is going to make it a, you know,

462
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,820
Stu:
make the case and add some urgency to it. But I mean, I don't know.

463
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,660
Stu:
That's, it seems they've got pretty definitive advantage of the insides did

464
00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:11,240
Stu:
it. It's just to the degree to which he's going to plea bargain or whatever.

465
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,420
Stu:
But the show isn't talking about it on that level. It stops being about the

466
00:33:16,420 --> 00:33:18,840
Stu:
procedural elements in the second episode.

467
00:33:19,060 --> 00:33:21,460
Stu:
And so there's two things that happens in this second episode.

468
00:33:21,580 --> 00:33:25,440
Stu:
There is this plot question of, will those detectives be able to find the murder

469
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,880
Stu:
weapon and uncover the motivation?

470
00:33:27,220 --> 00:33:30,400
Stu:
Motivation is a really interesting thing to uncover because we're talking about character.

471
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,980
Stu:
So we're assigning a plot question that is about revealing another person's character.

472
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:36,280
Chas:
Yeah.

473
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,840
Stu:
Which is kind of how Jack Thorne, the co-writer and co-creator of the show,

474
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:41,760
Stu:
explains much more simply.

475
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,960
Excerpts:
Adolescence is not a whodunit, it's a whodunit. How did this boy end up in this place?

476
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,960
Stu:
And interestingly, if you go back to episode one, these are the questions the

477
00:33:53,960 --> 00:34:00,560
Stu:
detectives themselves are asking, prompting the audience to wonder, whodunit?

478
00:34:01,180 --> 00:34:08,560
Excerpts:
Do you want to give us a reason why? Hmm? Why would you do something like this?

479
00:34:10,850 --> 00:34:16,950
Excerpts:
Jamie, do you want to explain? You want to say sorry to Katie's mum,

480
00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:23,210
Excerpts:
who I had to talk to just past midnight last night while she was sobbing on

481
00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:25,910
Excerpts:
the floor because her daughter is gone.

482
00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:28,910
Excerpts:
Do you want to say sorry to her?

483
00:34:29,450 --> 00:34:32,050
Stu:
But let's get back to episode two.

484
00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:32,430
Chas:
Yeah.

485
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:39,050
Stu:
The son of the detective is conveniently at this school, right?

486
00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:46,730
Stu:
That is a decision that they have made because they want to explore the relationship

487
00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:51,430
Stu:
between this detective, Luke, Detective Luke Bascombe, Detective Sergeant Misha Frank.

488
00:34:51,890 --> 00:34:56,050
Stu:
So Detective Bascombe, Luke's son is at this school.

489
00:34:56,910 --> 00:34:59,830
Excerpts:
You only got a kid in the school? Yeah. Yeah.

490
00:35:00,430 --> 00:35:04,370
Excerpts:
Adam, right? Yeah. Yeah, no, he's off if he didn't know.

491
00:35:04,750 --> 00:35:07,850
Excerpts:
He didn't get any cheekbones, did he? I don't see what that has to do with him.

492
00:35:07,850 --> 00:35:08,590
Excerpts:
Can you tell me about him?

493
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:14,690
Stu:
And what is interesting about this episode on the macro level is that he doesn't

494
00:35:14,690 --> 00:35:18,750
Stu:
solve the plot until he has an emotional event with his son.

495
00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:22,470
Stu:
The emotional event is that his son's disconnected from him.

496
00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:24,810
Stu:
We get this sense that they're distant from each other.

497
00:35:26,010 --> 00:35:29,850
Stu:
Well, we don't even get a sense. We see it. And it's only later on when him

498
00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:33,970
Stu:
and his son are in a room and he basically learns that he needs to listen to

499
00:35:33,970 --> 00:35:38,090
Stu:
these kids that he's able to, quote unquote, solve the plot.

500
00:35:38,090 --> 00:35:43,910
Excerpts:
Right someone said something to you because listen i've got sniffer dogs people

501
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:50,050
Excerpts:
now in drains and all sorts of stuff going on ads it's not going well because you're not getting it,

502
00:35:50,990 --> 00:35:55,730
Excerpts:
what am i not getting you're not reading what they're doing what's happening

503
00:35:55,730 --> 00:36:01,490
Excerpts:
what are you talking about insta you've been looking at insta right.

504
00:36:03,650 --> 00:36:06,370
Chas:
I mean, he still doesn't find the knife.

505
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:13,410
Stu:
No, but he finds the boy, which is Ryan, that says that Jamie used his knife.

506
00:36:13,550 --> 00:36:17,970
Stu:
So, to me, it feels like, well, that's close enough. They found the person that

507
00:36:17,970 --> 00:36:20,030
Stu:
says, yes, he had my knife.

508
00:36:20,090 --> 00:36:24,650
Chas:
They do actually resolve the two. The central dramatic question posed at the

509
00:36:24,650 --> 00:36:33,270
Chas:
beginning of the episode, will these detectives find out what motivated Jamie and will they find...

510
00:36:33,650 --> 00:36:38,570
Chas:
You know, some further evidence to, to convict Jamie from going to the school.

511
00:36:38,750 --> 00:36:42,590
Stu:
And I think that is just tied to a character question, which is,

512
00:36:42,850 --> 00:36:48,850
Stu:
will Luke, and it's not Nisha, it's, it's, will Luke connect with his son, right?

513
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:52,190
Stu:
Yeah. It's a character question that is posed and it's answered by the end of

514
00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:57,590
Stu:
the episode because they go off to get, um, uh, basically a snack,

515
00:36:57,910 --> 00:36:59,350
Stu:
fries from a Chinese, chips.

516
00:36:59,630 --> 00:37:01,410
Chas:
From a Chinese takeaway. Take away.

517
00:37:02,710 --> 00:37:05,190
Stu:
But earlier, like, I mean, that resolves their relationship,

518
00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:09,530
Stu:
but it's when they spend time together that he's able to learn Ryan.

519
00:37:09,830 --> 00:37:12,950
Stu:
You know, he learns about the emojis and the secret language of teenagers and

520
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:14,890
Stu:
that leads him to Ryan, et cetera, et cetera.

521
00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:18,350
Stu:
So, the emotional event changes it.

522
00:37:18,350 --> 00:37:22,890
Chas:
Well, I was going to make an observation that while this second episode does,

523
00:37:22,890 --> 00:37:28,250
Chas:
I feel, feel more of a piece to the first episode than it does to the later

524
00:37:28,250 --> 00:37:32,350
Chas:
two, in that we still have actual, we've got a lot of characters.

525
00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:36,390
Chas:
They are, we're following detectives undergoing a procedure.

526
00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:44,630
Chas:
And we still do shift POV away from Bascombe.

527
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:50,790
Chas:
Like, not as much as the first episode, but in particular, we are following

528
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:54,590
Chas:
one of Katie's best friends.

529
00:37:55,790 --> 00:38:00,450
Chas:
So, we're introduced to her through the detectives interviewing her.

530
00:38:00,550 --> 00:38:06,190
Chas:
And what I really appreciated was Jade almost hung a lantern on perhaps one

531
00:38:06,190 --> 00:38:09,550
Chas:
of the arguments that could be leveled at the whole theme of this.

532
00:38:09,550 --> 00:38:19,590
Chas:
They're exploring the violence, manosphere, misogyny, youth being affected by

533
00:38:19,590 --> 00:38:21,610
Chas:
social media. These are all these themes they're talking about.

534
00:38:21,790 --> 00:38:28,710
Chas:
But Jade actually calls out why we always, and I think Detective Frank as well at the end says,

535
00:38:28,930 --> 00:38:33,950
Chas:
so those two female characters in this story is like really bugs me how we're

536
00:38:33,950 --> 00:38:38,470
Chas:
always talking about the killer here, not about the victim.

537
00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:40,550
Chas:
And if we are talking about the victim, we're trying to find this,

538
00:38:40,690 --> 00:38:44,330
Chas:
you know, what it is that they did that was asking for it.

539
00:38:44,930 --> 00:38:47,650
Excerpts:
Are you saying that she didn't like him because we've got Instagram posts from

540
00:38:47,650 --> 00:38:52,150
Excerpts:
her that suggest that they were friends? So you're trying to blame this all on her? Is that it? No.

541
00:38:52,690 --> 00:38:56,230
Excerpts:
Well, we've got video. Everyone knows. I don't know why I'm talking. It's okay.

542
00:38:57,250 --> 00:39:02,150
Excerpts:
Look, we're not asking you to talk bad about it. You are! You are can hear in all of you. No, Jade.

543
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:06,410
Excerpts:
Can I go now, Lowell School? Their politeness. Well, I'm really feeling polite

544
00:39:06,410 --> 00:39:08,650
Excerpts:
today. Can I go now, Miss Lowell School? This is phenomenal.

545
00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:15,870
Chas:
But we do, there is a point where we actually leave to see Jade in a scene with

546
00:39:15,870 --> 00:39:19,910
Chas:
the teacher with none of the detectives around at all.

547
00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:24,210
Chas:
And then we just learn about Jade's life, essentially.

548
00:39:24,970 --> 00:39:30,630
Stu:
Yeah. And so, this is where I think the show is becoming more melodramatic in

549
00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:36,310
Stu:
this episode. This is kind of, this is melodrama slash detective.

550
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:42,870
Stu:
And I think it is not, melodrama is part of every, is part of the first three episodes.

551
00:39:43,130 --> 00:39:46,410
Stu:
They're kind of a genre mix. The first one is police detractive,

552
00:39:46,650 --> 00:39:51,170
Stu:
like the procedural or an ob-doc kind of style and genre.

553
00:39:51,410 --> 00:39:54,610
Stu:
Using melodramatic tools to explore the question of what is the impact of this

554
00:39:54,610 --> 00:40:01,170
Stu:
juvenile crime. I'm just processing a 13-year-old for the accusation of murder.

555
00:40:01,410 --> 00:40:06,530
Stu:
The second episode is very clearly about the impact on other students,

556
00:40:06,830 --> 00:40:13,630
Stu:
about having both a girl from the school being killed and the accused murderer,

557
00:40:13,630 --> 00:40:18,010
Stu:
which all the kids are convinced he actually did it, which probably tells you

558
00:40:18,010 --> 00:40:19,430
Stu:
all you need to know, really.

559
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:24,170
Excerpts:
Me and Taylor told me we need to open a grief support room. With security guards

560
00:40:24,170 --> 00:40:26,290
Excerpts:
and social workers now, are we great?

561
00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:29,890
Excerpts:
Just worry about the impact it's going to have on the kids, you know. It's a lot.

562
00:40:30,550 --> 00:40:32,130
Excerpts:
Keep an eye on it. Yeah.

563
00:40:32,410 --> 00:40:37,250
Stu:
Okay. And the show makes a, it almost does the children of men thing where it's in the one-er.

564
00:40:37,630 --> 00:40:42,010
Stu:
It will walk past a bunch of kids, right? Or kids talking to themselves.

565
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:46,410
Stu:
Part of the kind of handover technique, which we'll unpack a little bit later,

566
00:40:46,570 --> 00:40:48,870
Stu:
is that we'll follow a group of kids having these conversations.

567
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:53,590
Stu:
Right. So, it's bringing, by exploring the world, it's beginning us to make

568
00:40:53,590 --> 00:40:55,190
Stu:
us ask questions and think about the world.

569
00:40:55,290 --> 00:40:57,610
Stu:
This is the kind of, the thematic stuff.

570
00:40:58,130 --> 00:41:01,810
Stu:
And all these kids are powerless, and so are the teachers. And one of the things

571
00:41:01,810 --> 00:41:05,650
Stu:
I think is melodramatic, and it still is my argument against Emma.

572
00:41:05,850 --> 00:41:11,610
Stu:
So, Em's main thing about this show not being melodrama is she saw melodrama

573
00:41:11,610 --> 00:41:17,190
Stu:
as requiring, like, an exaggeration of performance, right?

574
00:41:17,190 --> 00:41:20,770
Stu:
So, the emotions are all very exaggerated. The example she kept on giving was

575
00:41:20,770 --> 00:41:23,330
Stu:
Australia as an example of a modern

576
00:41:23,330 --> 00:41:29,970
Stu:
melodrama that is also kind of got stereotypical kind of characters,

577
00:41:30,170 --> 00:41:32,750
Stu:
like the big moustache twirling villain, et cetera, et cetera.

578
00:41:33,050 --> 00:41:37,450
Stu:
Right. And that to me is a form of melodrama, you know, soap operas, et cetera.

579
00:41:37,450 --> 00:41:42,970
Stu:
But the kind of stuff that we're talking about, which is ordinary people in

580
00:41:42,970 --> 00:41:47,410
Stu:
extraordinary circumstances are clearly here interested in exploring the impact

581
00:41:47,410 --> 00:41:52,430
Stu:
of these events on people that can't actually change the plot is definitely what's going on here.

582
00:41:52,750 --> 00:41:58,790
Chas:
Yeah. And even if we look at the more plotty element of this episode too-

583
00:41:59,510 --> 00:42:04,730
Chas:
Will the police detectives find the knife or find out, uh, Jamie's motivation?

584
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:11,570
Chas:
The, the first half of the episode is basically teaching us the futility of

585
00:42:11,570 --> 00:42:13,790
Chas:
the exercise that they're going under.

586
00:42:14,330 --> 00:42:19,030
Chas:
They, you know, repeat the same speech in two different classrooms to various

587
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:25,130
Chas:
different levels of ridicule, including, uh, one kid, uh, oinking at them.

588
00:42:25,130 --> 00:42:28,250
Chas:
There's a fire well a

589
00:42:28,250 --> 00:42:33,810
Chas:
fire alarm goes off the entire school files out there's a fight involving jade

590
00:42:33,810 --> 00:42:38,650
Chas:
and ryan one of jamie's friends out in the parade ground then all the kids file

591
00:42:38,650 --> 00:42:43,290
Chas:
back in and the the detectives resume their mission and it's then that adam

592
00:42:43,290 --> 00:42:47,030
Chas:
luke uh detective d.i bascom's son intervenes.

593
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:49,750
Stu:
I just want to kind of come back to finish my point

594
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:53,270
Stu:
which which connects to what you said because emma is a i've

595
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:56,850
Stu:
been speaking of how this connected em's a high school teacher who's also

596
00:42:56,850 --> 00:42:59,730
Stu:
doing a master's of psychology her thesis was only social

597
00:42:59,730 --> 00:43:02,950
Stu:
behavior disorder she works in education development psychology

598
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:08,330
Stu:
like and so the the school playground scene she was like the teachers seem too

599
00:43:08,330 --> 00:43:12,730
Stu:
incompetent they're a little bit too yelly right in terms of how to maintain

600
00:43:12,730 --> 00:43:17,450
Stu:
the kids they're exaggerated and i'm like she was like hiding i'm like exaggerated

601
00:43:17,450 --> 00:43:20,770
Stu:
they've made the choice to exaggerate these teachers to make school,

602
00:43:20,970 --> 00:43:23,930
Stu:
make the kids feel more difficult, right?

603
00:43:24,190 --> 00:43:26,490
Stu:
And, you know, there's some good behind the scenes where they tell the kids

604
00:43:26,490 --> 00:43:29,130
Stu:
just to ignore the teachers. That was kind of their direction to the extras.

605
00:43:29,310 --> 00:43:32,930
Stu:
So there's probably an improvisational quality to what the kids are doing.

606
00:43:33,370 --> 00:43:36,850
Excerpts:
There's 300 kids, as well as all of the teachers or the chaperones that are

607
00:43:36,850 --> 00:43:38,810
Excerpts:
being led around by lots of dressed in ADs.

608
00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:43,370
Excerpts:
So, it's got to be really meticulously planned out. You're going to get instructions

609
00:43:43,370 --> 00:43:47,210
Excerpts:
from the cast teachers to get back in line. Do not listen to them.

610
00:43:47,590 --> 00:43:53,330
Stu:
But there is a sense that they have made that decision to hide the performances of the teachers,

611
00:43:53,630 --> 00:43:58,350
Stu:
make them slightly more incompetent than they are in terms of maintaining discipline

612
00:43:58,350 --> 00:44:02,730
Stu:
in the classroom, because they wanted to make the school feel like a prison,

613
00:44:02,990 --> 00:44:04,530
Stu:
which is what one of the characters says.

614
00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:10,210
Stu:
It's got a narrative and thematic purpose in terms of what they're saying.

615
00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:15,610
Chas:
And it makes both the teachers, the detectives, and the students feel hopeless.

616
00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:19,890
Chas:
That there is no way out of this. And it was interesting. It was in that,

617
00:44:20,030 --> 00:44:23,410
Chas:
again, in that, you know, we'll probably come back when we're talking about

618
00:44:23,410 --> 00:44:26,590
Chas:
the micro and we're talking about plotting.

619
00:44:26,590 --> 00:44:29,470
Chas:
But it was a beautiful scene between the

620
00:44:29,470 --> 00:44:32,710
Chas:
two detectives where they they take a a beat

621
00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:35,510
Chas:
out of the the plot story like they're

622
00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:38,270
Chas:
about to head back to the like to leave the

623
00:44:38,270 --> 00:44:40,990
Chas:
school and they are just

624
00:44:40,990 --> 00:44:44,730
Chas:
talking about the school and bascom is

625
00:44:44,730 --> 00:44:47,490
Chas:
seeing it as like a waste of time that all

626
00:44:47,490 --> 00:44:50,230
Chas:
the kids are uh watching screens and no

627
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:53,870
Chas:
one's learning and it's like a terrible experience and

628
00:44:53,870 --> 00:44:56,610
Chas:
frank is like well this was like my school and there will be a few

629
00:44:56,610 --> 00:44:59,930
Chas:
good teachers in there and there'll be a few good kids in there

630
00:44:59,930 --> 00:45:02,790
Chas:
interesting having them for a scene

631
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:06,490
Chas:
removed the plot questions and

632
00:45:06,490 --> 00:45:09,370
Chas:
it starts out asking some character questions of

633
00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:12,190
Chas:
the two of them it's like what was your experience of school kind of

634
00:45:12,190 --> 00:45:15,650
Chas:
thing but very quickly becomes them talking

635
00:45:15,650 --> 00:45:18,950
Chas:
essentially about thematic stuff because it removes the

636
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:22,290
Chas:
it resolves the character questions about what they're asking each other almost

637
00:45:22,290 --> 00:45:26,610
Chas:
instantly and so then the rest of that scene is just kind of talking about what

638
00:45:26,610 --> 00:45:31,390
Chas:
is this show about essentially through the the resolution of both the the plot

639
00:45:31,390 --> 00:45:35,850
Chas:
questions and the character questions within that scene do.

640
00:45:35,850 --> 00:45:40,630
Excerpts:
You know what i don't like about all this go on right the perpetrator always

641
00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:49,290
Excerpts:
gets the front line a man raped a woman we followed jamie's brain around this entire case, right?

642
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:52,930
Excerpts:
Katie isn't important, Jamie is. Everyone will remember Jamie,

643
00:45:53,130 --> 00:45:54,110
Excerpts:
no one will remember her.

644
00:45:54,510 --> 00:45:57,210
Excerpts:
That's what annoys me, that's what gets to me.

645
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,200
Excerpts:
I think you're wrong i think we're here for katie we're

646
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:08,060
Excerpts:
here for our parents we're here to get answers it's our job to understand why

647
00:46:08,060 --> 00:46:12,980
Excerpts:
you can't understand why do you actually think you can we've got the video we

648
00:46:12,980 --> 00:46:16,880
Excerpts:
know what you did you're not gonna know why mate look at all the things we've

649
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,500
Excerpts:
seen you are not gonna know why you just won't okay misha look go back to the station,

650
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,200
Excerpts:
i'm gonna go and talk to ryan one last time yeah but you've spoken to ryan i know but he's,

651
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:30,280
Excerpts:
not saying something i know there's more you coming or not sorry.

652
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,840
Chas:
I feel like i've jumped into a micro observation there but.

653
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,620
Stu:
No no i mean i'm probably stop it

654
00:46:35,620 --> 00:46:38,380
Stu:
breaks up my lecturing and we'll come back because these things are

655
00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:41,320
Stu:
connected right ultimately the macro and micro have to

656
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,060
Stu:
work hand in hand for them to execute um so

657
00:46:45,060 --> 00:46:48,040
Stu:
by episode three we've jumped seven

658
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,800
Stu:
weeks we follow a new protagonist so i think in

659
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,520
Stu:
the preview seven months sorry i think in the second episode there's a clearer

660
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,860
Stu:
protagonist and that's um luke baskin yeah right detective luke baskin in the

661
00:46:58,860 --> 00:47:03,820
Stu:
same way i think episode three has a newer a clear protagonist which is the

662
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:08,040
Stu:
forensic psychologist uh bryany i think her name is who comes to interview jamie.

663
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,960
Excerpts:
I've been employed by your team but i don't work for you i'm writing an independent

664
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,540
Excerpts:
that's a very important word okay an independent pre-sentence offense report

665
00:47:16,540 --> 00:47:18,800
Excerpts:
which the judge will read in order

666
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,240
Excerpts:
to get an understanding of you and your understanding of the charges okay.

667
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:25,160
Stu:
What's interesting is they make

668
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,520
Stu:
it kind of clear that she's actually working for his team so

669
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,420
Stu:
she's not there to elicit a confession right because

670
00:47:31,420 --> 00:47:34,540
Stu:
there is a version of this where it's him being interviewed by

671
00:47:34,540 --> 00:47:38,580
Stu:
more senior detectives or police forensic psychologists or something like that

672
00:47:38,580 --> 00:47:43,800
Stu:
and they're trying to get something out of him for the case by making her work

673
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,240
Stu:
for his team they're making this more about an exploration of character in fact

674
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:53,460
Stu:
she just constantly says she wants to know his understanding right that becomes a running joke i.

675
00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:58,540
Excerpts:
Am just here to get an understanding of your understanding and i understand

676
00:47:58,540 --> 00:48:02,180
Excerpts:
that you need to have an understanding of my understanding,

677
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:05,160
Excerpts:
Go on.

678
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:11,160
Stu:
Her plot question is to understand his character, which really means that this

679
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,380
Stu:
is, again, sitting in that plot character thing.

680
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:16,160
Stu:
And really, I would say it's just a character question.

681
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,760
Stu:
And she's just got a motivation to kind of get in in there. Because as we have

682
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,060
Stu:
talked about when we've explored plot character stuff and plot,

683
00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:25,760
Stu:
plot is got a very clear, like the bomb is turned off.

684
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,620
Stu:
Like there's very clear yes or no kind of answers to plot.

685
00:48:29,780 --> 00:48:33,580
Stu:
You know, have they discovered who did it? Have they discovered the murder weapon,

686
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:40,480
Stu:
et cetera? Does she, how can you dramatize that she has an understanding of who he is?

687
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,500
Chas:
Right? Yeah. There's a lot of setup in this episode.

688
00:48:45,780 --> 00:48:51,040
Chas:
I mean, it's in a way the simplest of the three episodes. She's a clear protagonist

689
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,260
Chas:
and remains the protagonist throughout.

690
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,400
Chas:
And we say in her POV the entire time.

691
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:02,060
Chas:
There's no other storyline. There's no other central dramatic question.

692
00:49:02,060 --> 00:49:07,400
Stu:
I mean, there's the kind of the interesting stuff around the guard being slightly

693
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,900
Stu:
flirtatious with her, kind of getting in her space, et cetera.

694
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,820
Stu:
But we'll come to that as part of the micro strategies.

695
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:19,500
Chas:
And there's a lot of setup of her before Jamie is brought in.

696
00:49:20,140 --> 00:49:24,840
Chas:
And I think that's possibly one of the narrative reasons the guard exists where

697
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,660
Chas:
it's, you know, it's establishing that she's got to do an assessment of Jamie.

698
00:49:30,660 --> 00:49:34,820
Chas:
It's about his ability to, can he be criminally liable or not?

699
00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:37,480
Chas:
Can he be responsible for his actions?

700
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:43,900
Chas:
Yes, she's been chosen by Jamie's team, but she gives an independent report to the judge.

701
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:50,360
Chas:
And it also establishes that she's the second psychologist to do this with Jamie.

702
00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:57,520
Excerpts:
You're on five visits. Yes. And you know what you're going to say in the report?

703
00:49:58,240 --> 00:49:59,880
Excerpts:
I wouldn't be here if I knew that.

704
00:50:00,780 --> 00:50:05,360
Excerpts:
Well, the other one, the other one of you, we only needed three. You can't say any more.

705
00:50:05,660 --> 00:50:09,120
Excerpts:
It's important I don't know anything about what the other psychologist says, does or thinks.

706
00:50:14,340 --> 00:50:17,920
Excerpts:
It's about making the right assessment, not the fastest. Sorry,

707
00:50:18,020 --> 00:50:21,340
Excerpts:
I'm just being an idiot. No, that's just the way I work.

708
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:27,640
Chas:
So there's a lot of setup before they get into the cheese and pickle sandwich, as it were, of the scene.

709
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,920
Stu:
I mean, the cheese and pickle sandwich is a great representation that effectively

710
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:37,100
Stu:
it is, the cheese and pickle sandwich dramatizes the emotional event.

711
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:44,400
Stu:
Right? Which is, at the beginning, she is trying to build rapport with him. She brings him food.

712
00:50:44,420 --> 00:50:48,260
Stu:
She's kind of being like a little bit nurturing towards this kid.

713
00:50:48,620 --> 00:50:55,340
Stu:
And then at the end, she is so disturbed by what she's experienced that she

714
00:50:55,340 --> 00:50:57,860
Stu:
can't even like touch the pickle sandwich.

715
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,320
Stu:
Right. She's kind of disgusted by it. So that is a way to dramatize the emotional

716
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:08,200
Stu:
event that has occurred, which is that, I mean, I mean, the good thing about

717
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,500
Stu:
emotional events as we talked about is they don't actually have to be that precise.

718
00:51:11,500 --> 00:51:12,140
Chas:
It's.

719
00:51:12,140 --> 00:51:16,100
Stu:
Character stuff right it doesn't have to be like is the have they saved the

720
00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:20,460
Stu:
world no it's like i think she's kind of a little bit terrified of him.

721
00:51:20,460 --> 00:51:23,760
Chas:
Yeah absolutely or terrified of what he represents i

722
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,980
Chas:
mean there's you talk about the emotional event there's

723
00:51:26,980 --> 00:51:30,140
Chas:
two times where james jamie

724
00:51:30,140 --> 00:51:33,280
Chas:
stands over her while she remains seated

725
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,480
Chas:
and he's yelling at her and it

726
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,100
Chas:
is yeah deliberately terrifying but

727
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:44,100
Chas:
she does not in those scenes in

728
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:47,820
Chas:
those moments in her performance reveal any emotion

729
00:51:47,820 --> 00:51:53,260
Chas:
in one of them the guard interrupts the first one and she takes a beat she goes

730
00:51:53,260 --> 00:51:58,840
Chas:
out ostensibly to get another hot chocolate but ends up just breathing uh going

731
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,160
Chas:
and checking on wanting to see what jamie is doing while she's not in the room

732
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,940
Chas:
yep and then coming back in having forgotten the hot chocolate.

733
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:07,500
Stu:
Yes.

734
00:52:07,820 --> 00:52:12,280
Chas:
And it's clear that she's missing some objectives in her questioning in the second-

735
00:52:13,140 --> 00:52:20,180
Chas:
buildup is more pointed. And to me, it was really clear that she had to establish

736
00:52:20,180 --> 00:52:24,860
Chas:
Jamie's understanding of his understanding of a couple of things.

737
00:52:25,020 --> 00:52:31,920
Chas:
Did he understand that Katie was dead? Did he understand what that meant?

738
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:39,480
Chas:
Did he understand what being found guilty of killing katie meant so she was

739
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,180
Chas:
driving at some clear objectives and that escalated in the second.

740
00:52:43,180 --> 00:52:44,140
Stu:
Part of.

741
00:52:44,140 --> 00:52:48,040
Chas:
That because i think she felt uncomfortable and wanted to bring it to a close sooner.

742
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,340
Stu:
So she had kind of somewhat plot objectives is what you're saying yeah.

743
00:52:52,340 --> 00:52:53,340
Chas:
But they're not very clear.

744
00:52:53,340 --> 00:52:54,420
Stu:
No so.

745
00:52:54,420 --> 00:52:59,960
Chas:
We don't know when she when she's completed the plot right we i mean we do when

746
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:05,800
Chas:
she tells us it's up right we're done i i have what i need but we don't know

747
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:10,140
Chas:
what the you know you're talking about the game of the scene we don't know what the win conditions.

748
00:53:10,140 --> 00:53:10,860
Stu:
Of

749
00:53:10,860 --> 00:53:11,840
Chas:
The scene are.

750
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,600
Stu:
No because this episode is about all about the why done

751
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,640
Stu:
it and the why yeah it's a character question that is related to

752
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,520
Stu:
the thematic questions right and so

753
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,260
Stu:
this is an exploration of all that stuff and look

754
00:53:23,260 --> 00:53:26,520
Stu:
it's got structure the midpoint i guess of

755
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:32,100
Stu:
this episode is when he loses his temper with her so we see that the first aspect

756
00:53:32,100 --> 00:53:35,960
Stu:
of like jamie breaking something and we're like oh fucking you know because

757
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:40,880
Stu:
again we at this point we've seen the footage but we are also wanting to learn

758
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,280
Stu:
more about Jamie the first episode told us definitely that Jamie didn't,

759
00:53:45,950 --> 00:53:50,490
Stu:
It didn't give us the why. And we're going in here aligned with her.

760
00:53:50,690 --> 00:53:54,230
Stu:
So, this is actually similar to how the first episode has worked.

761
00:53:54,430 --> 00:53:58,610
Stu:
Right. And I guess in a way, the second episode too, because the detectives

762
00:53:58,610 --> 00:54:01,630
Stu:
in the second episode are interviewing, are talking to students.

763
00:54:01,850 --> 00:54:05,470
Stu:
They're not combing the school looking for the murder weapon.

764
00:54:05,650 --> 00:54:08,650
Stu:
Right. They're not kind of using sniffer dogs or whatever.

765
00:54:09,070 --> 00:54:12,510
Stu:
Right. They're actually just talking to kids to find out what the kids know,

766
00:54:12,690 --> 00:54:13,910
Stu:
if any of the kids have found something.

767
00:54:14,050 --> 00:54:17,550
Chas:
Right. And they're not even, like, other than Jade and Ryan,

768
00:54:17,810 --> 00:54:20,990
Chas:
they're not having one-on-one interviews. They're going and making class announcements,

769
00:54:21,170 --> 00:54:22,590
Chas:
begging for- Information.

770
00:54:22,710 --> 00:54:26,070
Chas:
Information to be brought to them by school students who are ridiculing them.

771
00:54:26,210 --> 00:54:30,050
Chas:
Like, yeah, it's very different to this one.

772
00:54:30,190 --> 00:54:33,130
Stu:
No, but I'm just saying, like, it's different, but also at the same time,

773
00:54:33,210 --> 00:54:35,730
Stu:
because it's them literally interrogating characters.

774
00:54:35,730 --> 00:54:43,150
Chas:
Yeah. And she manages to accidentally twice elicit a confession from Jamie,

775
00:54:43,330 --> 00:54:46,210
Chas:
which gets him really upset. But that's not her intention.

776
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:53,270
Chas:
Her intention is just to ascertain his understanding for some procedural purpose.

777
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:57,490
Chas:
But we are not, we're giving her a whole lot of clues and inklings.

778
00:54:57,570 --> 00:54:59,250
Chas:
But like I said, we don't know what the win condition is.

779
00:54:59,350 --> 00:55:04,270
Chas:
So we're coming into this scene where she has an objective that is allowing

780
00:55:04,270 --> 00:55:06,830
Chas:
us as the audience to access the why done it.

781
00:55:07,070 --> 00:55:07,510
Stu:
Yes.

782
00:55:07,870 --> 00:55:13,650
Chas:
But it's not, that's not really her purpose. She's not there to understand Jamie's

783
00:55:13,650 --> 00:55:15,990
Chas:
motivation. She's there to understand his, uh.

784
00:55:16,770 --> 00:55:17,210
Stu:
Understanding.

785
00:55:17,470 --> 00:55:17,590
Chas:
Yeah.

786
00:55:19,210 --> 00:55:22,950
Stu:
But in the absence of anything else, we're going to, we're, we're latched onto it.

787
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:26,090
Chas:
Oh, for sure. And it's, it is riveting.

788
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:30,890
Chas:
And it is, I mean, I think it's going to be very few listeners who have listened

789
00:55:30,890 --> 00:55:33,290
Chas:
to this far without having seen the show.

790
00:55:33,870 --> 00:55:42,750
Chas:
But it was in this episode that I was so keenly aware of how well cast Jamie was.

791
00:55:42,750 --> 00:55:50,910
Chas:
I mean, not only is he giving an incredible performance, but he is a tiny 13-year-old

792
00:55:50,910 --> 00:55:54,710
Chas:
boy who genuinely pulls off being frightening.

793
00:55:54,830 --> 00:55:59,130
Chas:
I don't think she was ever physically frightened in that she thought that she

794
00:55:59,130 --> 00:56:06,830
Chas:
couldn't physically escape the situation, but I think she was frightened of his rage, of...

795
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:12,660
Chas:
What he represented of how a 13-year-old boy could become this.

796
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:14,320
Stu:
Well, I mean, it's got the whole,

797
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,320
Stu:
you know, I mean, I'm just going to connect it to stuff in your life.

798
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,140
Stu:
Like, it's like, how do you deal with violent elderly people?

799
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:22,400
Stu:
It's like, how do you deal?

800
00:56:22,580 --> 00:56:26,460
Stu:
I mean, this is why juvenile offenders, I think, are so shocking to,

801
00:56:26,980 --> 00:56:30,380
Stu:
you know, I mean, they constantly come up in the Australian media, right?

802
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,940
Stu:
Because it is like, how do we deal with them?

803
00:56:33,580 --> 00:56:36,760
Chas:
But, okay, to take a step back while we're still talking about the micro,

804
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,840
Chas:
this episode three is still somewhat sitting in crime procedural.

805
00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:43,560
Chas:
Like it is an interview with a criminal.

806
00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:44,200
Stu:
Oh, yeah.

807
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,960
Chas:
Right? It's pretty classic genre trappings, right?

808
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,800
Stu:
Yes. I think all three, I think the first three episodes are kind of crime melodrama.

809
00:56:54,060 --> 00:56:58,640
Chas:
Yeah. But I think with each successive episode, the central dramatic questions

810
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,040
Chas:
have become less clear and less relevant.

811
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,660
Stu:
I think they're clear, but they're not plot.

812
00:57:05,860 --> 00:57:06,040
Chas:
Yeah.

813
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,920
Stu:
I just don't think they're driven, like, they're not as driven by plot.

814
00:57:09,060 --> 00:57:09,160
Chas:
Yeah.

815
00:57:09,380 --> 00:57:13,700
Stu:
The plot starts becoming less and less pressing to the point where there's,

816
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:15,840
Stu:
like, does it actually make a difference?

817
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:20,900
Stu:
Like, what's the urgency, the goal stakes and the urgency of this? She is writing a report.

818
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:21,180
Chas:
Yeah.

819
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:21,840
Stu:
Right?

820
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,300
Chas:
And it feels like she could come back as often as she wants to get it done.

821
00:57:26,300 --> 00:57:30,880
Chas:
It's not like the report's due in 25 minutes or anything like that.

822
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,080
Stu:
Yeah, she's just made the decision that she will probably get what she needs

823
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,860
Stu:
from him at this point, which she does.

824
00:57:38,940 --> 00:57:39,240
Chas:
Yes.

825
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:46,440
Stu:
You know, much to his disappointment. So, it's just an interesting conversation around genre.

826
00:57:46,580 --> 00:57:49,340
Stu:
And then I think in the last episode, it does do a genre shift.

827
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:49,620
Chas:
Yeah.

828
00:57:49,980 --> 00:57:56,520
Stu:
Right? Into kind of like Ken Loach kind of British social realism, right, with melodrama.

829
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,520
Stu:
And it's got a very light plot.

830
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,440
Stu:
And this is me talking about it being like, I guess, Little Bit Hero's Journey a little bit.

831
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,380
Stu:
And this is me just being amused by it, because when I thought about it,

832
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,720
Stu:
I was like, oh, it's very melodramatic, like, kind of a little bit mumblecore.

833
00:58:09,580 --> 00:58:11,920
Excerpts:
Lisa, get downstairs, love! What?

834
00:58:13,660 --> 00:58:18,620
Excerpts:
Be calm to him. We're going to Wainwright. Can't I just stay here? No, you can't stay here.

835
00:58:19,540 --> 00:58:21,800
Excerpts:
Someone's just vandalised the van. Who knows what they'll do next?

836
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:23,700
Excerpts:
Not leaving you here on your own.

837
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,060
Excerpts:
Why would I want to go to Wainwright? Because I'm asking you to go to Wainwright.

838
00:58:27,180 --> 00:58:30,900
Excerpts:
Because I've got the breakfast sign. Girls, please, please, girls, do me a favour.

839
00:58:31,980 --> 00:58:35,760
Excerpts:
Please, help me out, love, I'm saying. All right. All right,

840
00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:39,340
Excerpts:
yeah, we'll all go. Yeah? We'll get the table back. Eh?

841
00:58:40,540 --> 00:58:44,040
Excerpts:
We'll get the table back. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

842
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,980
Excerpts:
we'll get the day back, eh? Yeah, it's my birthday, isn't it?

843
00:58:47,340 --> 00:58:51,420
Stu:
So the fourth episode is spending time with the family on Eddie's birthday.

844
00:58:51,420 --> 00:58:57,200
Stu:
He discovers that there is graffiti on his van, and he gets the whole family

845
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:58,580
Stu:
in the van, and they drive off.

846
00:58:58,660 --> 00:59:01,860
Stu:
So they're literally leaving the ordinary world into the extraordinary world,

847
00:59:01,900 --> 00:59:05,140
Stu:
and then he kind of comes back from that experience changed.

848
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:05,860
Chas:
Right?

849
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:11,000
Stu:
But there is just enough of a plot engine to force these characters together.

850
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,900
Stu:
It's not just being with them in their grief.

851
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:18,700
Chas:
I mean, the plot question is, will he get the van cleaned?

852
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:19,260
Stu:
Yeah.

853
00:59:19,620 --> 00:59:28,220
Chas:
Right? But it's essentially it. But that plot question, there is a good scene, like a solid scene.

854
00:59:28,220 --> 00:59:32,920
Chas:
It feels like before that, he even discovers that, like it's his daughter who

855
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,660
Chas:
discovers that his van's been graffitied and she tells him.

856
00:59:36,660 --> 00:59:40,320
Chas:
It opens on him being in his shed,

857
00:59:41,020 --> 00:59:46,740
Chas:
he finishes a cup of tea while he's outside tipping the tea into a flower pot,

858
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:51,960
Chas:
comes in and his wife's cooking him a special breakfast for his 50th birthday

859
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,040
Chas:
and they have a cute scene together.

860
00:59:55,040 --> 01:00:00,480
Chas:
And all through that scene, obviously, the inciting incident has yet to happen.

861
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:06,240
Chas:
But I think in the absence of the inciting incident, what is driving the scene

862
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,940
Chas:
from the audience coming in, we also know it's 13 months later.

863
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:13,520
Chas:
So, that's the first thing that we are told, 13 months later.

864
01:00:13,740 --> 01:00:19,040
Chas:
And I think all we're being told as an audience to ask is what is the impact

865
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:23,440
Chas:
of what Jamie has done on this family?

866
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:24,480
Stu:
And.

867
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,760
Chas:
That question is resolved and it is a it is a character question it is a melodrama,

868
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,960
Chas:
question it's not a a plot question at all.

869
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:40,000
Stu:
No i mean the as you said the plot question is really light right yeah as in

870
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:44,680
Stu:
like it is a clear question can he can't get that off his van and the answer

871
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,880
Stu:
is it turns out is no right right at.

872
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:49,680
Chas:
The end he's like i'll get it re-sprayed.

873
01:00:49,820 --> 01:00:50,720
Stu:
Yes. Yes.

874
01:00:50,900 --> 01:00:58,680
Chas:
Like almost none of the drama that was driving him in his panic and his rage was necessary.

875
01:01:00,110 --> 01:01:04,050
Stu:
And that is the midpoint of the episode is him losing his shit at the,

876
01:01:04,230 --> 01:01:07,570
Stu:
and so then it becomes about the impact of his violence on the family.

877
01:01:08,170 --> 01:01:13,430
Stu:
And then we're with the characters and there is also an emotional event at the end of this episode.

878
01:01:13,610 --> 01:01:13,750
Chas:
Yeah.

879
01:01:14,050 --> 01:01:18,250
Stu:
Which is the kind of the, the family, I mean, enduring, I guess,

880
01:01:18,330 --> 01:01:20,370
Stu:
which is coming back to our melodrama episode.

881
01:01:20,510 --> 01:01:25,110
Stu:
We talked a lot about endurance and, you know, what is the price of enduring

882
01:01:25,110 --> 01:01:29,050
Stu:
these, what happens to them? And it's their, one, their decision to stay.

883
01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:29,350
Chas:
Yeah.

884
01:01:29,350 --> 01:01:33,130
Stu:
So there is this question about whether or not they move, which is not a,

885
01:01:33,310 --> 01:01:37,910
Stu:
which can be a plot question, but the way it's presented is as a character question, right?

886
01:01:37,950 --> 01:01:41,290
Stu:
Or a question of values between the wife and Eddie.

887
01:01:41,610 --> 01:01:43,170
Excerpts:
This isn't going to get any better.

888
01:01:46,710 --> 01:01:50,210
Excerpts:
Me mum says she can get you work. I don't need your mum to get me work.

889
01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:54,350
Excerpts:
What would I want your mum to get me work for? Hey, I've got work here.

890
01:01:55,070 --> 01:01:57,650
Excerpts:
Love, I've got lads that depend on me. No, I know that. Love,

891
01:01:57,930 --> 01:01:59,050
Excerpts:
she's got college, hasn't she?

892
01:01:59,690 --> 01:02:02,650
Excerpts:
Right? Do you want to take her out of college? Do you want to ruin her fucking

893
01:02:02,650 --> 01:02:07,090
Excerpts:
life as well? Hey, look, do you think moving back to Liverpool, it'll be any better?

894
01:02:08,070 --> 01:02:11,190
Excerpts:
Because I promise you now, it'll be 10 times fucking worse, and you know that.

895
01:02:12,370 --> 01:02:17,050
Excerpts:
You know that, love. You know it'll be worse. We've done nothing wrong, have we?

896
01:02:19,230 --> 01:02:23,570
Excerpts:
Have we done anything wrong? No. No, so we're not moving.

897
01:02:24,130 --> 01:02:28,810
Stu:
And so the daughter then kind of intervenes to say that she wants to stay.

898
01:02:29,350 --> 01:02:30,930
Chas:
Or that there's no point in moving.

899
01:02:31,150 --> 01:02:31,530
Stu:
Yeah.

900
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:37,290
Excerpts:
But we're staying here. We're not moving. We can't move.

901
01:02:38,830 --> 01:02:44,850
Excerpts:
Be cool too, though. Mum, mum, if we move, it'll be better for a bit,

902
01:02:45,550 --> 01:02:47,450
Excerpts:
but then someone's just going to find out something.

903
01:02:48,810 --> 01:02:51,990
Excerpts:
And then that, that something, that something's going to be everything,

904
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:54,270
Excerpts:
and then it'll just be even worse.

905
01:02:57,460 --> 01:02:57,880
Excerpts:
You know,

906
01:02:59,940 --> 01:03:04,060
Excerpts:
it's Jamie. Jamie's ours. It's new.

907
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:04,900
Stu:
Yeah.

908
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:09,360
Chas:
And so there is a, you know, that question is raised and resolved,

909
01:03:09,660 --> 01:03:11,520
Chas:
but it's not really a plot question.

910
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:15,340
Chas:
It's a dramatization of, yeah, what is the impact?

911
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,700
Stu:
Yeah. The van thing is interesting because it's not a strong plot in the sense

912
01:03:19,700 --> 01:03:23,400
Stu:
of forcing the character to do something, but the character's reaction to it

913
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,400
Stu:
becomes a driver, right?

914
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:25,660
Chas:
Yeah.

915
01:03:25,660 --> 01:03:28,820
Stu:
And it's interesting because it gives him kind of power.

916
01:03:29,020 --> 01:03:31,800
Stu:
Like in a way, Eddie feels like he's got power in this episode.

917
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,280
Stu:
He's getting the, you know, he's ordering the family into the van.

918
01:03:34,540 --> 01:03:39,020
Stu:
He goes in to get the paints, kind of threading, you know, finds the youths that are responsible.

919
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:43,840
Chas:
Oh, I mean, I can relate to this so hard because when I'm in a heightened state,

920
01:03:44,020 --> 01:03:46,900
Chas:
all I want to do is take action. I cannot sit still.

921
01:03:47,100 --> 01:03:51,320
Chas:
And he is in the same way. He just has to take action. He cannot sit with this.

922
01:03:51,540 --> 01:03:55,820
Stu:
Yeah. And it's beautifully observed. I thought it was really interesting how,

923
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:00,380
Stu:
I think one of the things they did, and this is almost like a review observation,

924
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,780
Stu:
that what they did with Eddie, which is really interesting, is I definitely

925
01:04:02,780 --> 01:04:07,000
Stu:
get this sense of that he's someone who's actually worked on his anger management, right?

926
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:11,840
Stu:
And I feel sympathetic for him because he fights so hard to not hurt those kids.

927
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,560
Stu:
He's still scary as fuck.

928
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:19,380
Stu:
And also his, and the impact on his wife, I think, Amanda, I think her name

929
01:04:19,380 --> 01:04:22,740
Stu:
is, you know, that she's lived up with someone and like, she kind of,

930
01:04:22,860 --> 01:04:26,080
Stu:
I guess, loves the, loves him for the fact that he's tried to be a better father

931
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:27,800
Stu:
than his, than his father.

932
01:04:28,340 --> 01:04:31,560
Stu:
And, you know, he is, but he, it's still not enough.

933
01:04:31,700 --> 01:04:35,960
Stu:
So it leaves us with, and they ask each other questions that become very active

934
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:40,300
Stu:
by them talking through these issues as a character level. That's kind of why

935
01:04:40,300 --> 01:04:44,640
Stu:
the episode and the show kind of launches these conversations, right?

936
01:04:45,180 --> 01:04:49,020
Stu:
Particularly in the last episode. I think if this episode was like episode two,

937
01:04:49,700 --> 01:04:53,020
Stu:
right, and then we went back to something else, I'm not sure if the show would

938
01:04:53,020 --> 01:04:57,200
Stu:
have, I mean, it's purely speculative, of course, have the kind of conversation

939
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:03,360
Stu:
started because it very deliberately ends with this question around the parents. Have they done enough?

940
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,620
Stu:
What is their responsibility for these kids, et cetera?

941
01:05:06,780 --> 01:05:09,100
Stu:
And it is very happy to leave it unresolved.

942
01:05:09,100 --> 01:05:15,220
Chas:
I just want to latch onto that because that question, that specific aspect of

943
01:05:15,220 --> 01:05:16,040
Chas:
the character question.

944
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:21,180
Chas:
So we've got the broad, I mean, as we said in the beginning,

945
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:25,200
Chas:
this fourth episode is very much in Eddie's point of view. I think there's only

946
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:30,520
Chas:
one moment I can remember of the whole episode where we're not in Eddie's perspective.

947
01:05:30,540 --> 01:05:38,000
Chas:
And it's just a moment where they're coming in from back from the hardware store.

948
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:39,960
Chas:
They've had the violent altercation.

949
01:05:40,580 --> 01:05:44,900
Chas:
He's had the drive to calm down. They've had the call from Jamie where Jamie

950
01:05:44,900 --> 01:05:47,300
Chas:
has told them he's going to change his plea to guilty.

951
01:05:47,980 --> 01:05:53,340
Chas:
Eddie goes inside first and we stay with Manda as she's hanging up her coat and she cries.

952
01:05:53,340 --> 01:05:58,620
Stu:
Yeah great paul in fact stephen graham and jack thorne talk about that as being

953
01:05:58,620 --> 01:06:01,140
Stu:
in one of their favorite moments in the whole series.

954
01:06:01,140 --> 01:06:05,120
Excerpts:
For me one of the most beautiful moments sorry is just to pick up on that point

955
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:10,440
Excerpts:
is in episode four when we follow them on a journey and they come back and it's

956
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:15,020
Excerpts:
the most simplistic of things but it's to me it's the most beautiful moment

957
01:06:15,020 --> 01:06:18,480
Excerpts:
and it's when and Christine hangs a coat on the peg.

958
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:25,100
Excerpts:
And it's just, you know, within the context of about, what, 30,

959
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:30,860
Excerpts:
40 seconds, she gets to pour this immense amount of emotion,

960
01:06:31,420 --> 01:06:35,540
Excerpts:
after everything she's just experienced on that journey, but also all of the

961
01:06:35,540 --> 01:06:38,940
Excerpts:
baggage she's been carrying from the moment that the police raided the house

962
01:06:38,940 --> 01:06:42,380
Excerpts:
and arrested their son, and she just lets that all go.

963
01:06:42,380 --> 01:06:48,740
Excerpts:
And then she pulls herself back to get there and she walks up the stairs and

964
01:06:48,740 --> 01:06:53,020
Excerpts:
we get to see that as an audience you would never really get to experience that

965
01:06:53,020 --> 01:06:57,300
Excerpts:
within the context of how we experience it if it wasn't this formula you know

966
01:06:57,300 --> 01:06:58,480
Excerpts:
you just wouldn't be able to.

967
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:03,040
Excerpts:
Alfred Hitchcock has got this quote he says dialogue is just the words actors

968
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:07,520
Excerpts:
say while their faces tell the story which is something I've always believed and in this show,

969
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:12,560
Excerpts:
the faces carry everything that you know like you know and and and unlocking

970
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:18,360
Excerpts:
unlocking the need to see inside what she's feeling at that moment is as simple

971
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,360
Excerpts:
as just seeing a put up a coat yeah.

972
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,080
Chas:
And that i think is the only moment in the whole episode when we're not with

973
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:28,320
Chas:
eddie and in his perspective she goes up and joins him in the bedroom and it's

974
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,200
Chas:
an incredible two-hander scene.

975
01:07:32,100 --> 01:07:35,660
Chas:
But it's in that scene that they raise the question of

976
01:07:35,660 --> 01:07:39,280
Chas:
and and answer it for themselves is how

977
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,620
Chas:
responsible are we as parents for Jamie and they're

978
01:07:42,620 --> 01:07:45,740
Chas:
wrestling with it because like uh Eddie says like

979
01:07:45,740 --> 01:07:51,420
Chas:
my father beat me with a belt and and they don't go into this level of detail

980
01:07:51,420 --> 01:07:55,620
Chas:
but he's like but I didn't go and kill anyone and here I am trying to make myself

981
01:07:55,620 --> 01:08:02,620
Chas:
a better person but I created Jamie and they're they're wrestling with that question and it's only,

982
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:07,100
Chas:
I'm not I think there would have been so many ways different

983
01:08:07,100 --> 01:08:09,920
Chas:
ways that they could have got to that same scene with these

984
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,620
Chas:
characters in this situation 13 months later

985
01:08:13,620 --> 01:08:16,920
Chas:
but they've chosen for this particular

986
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:24,860
Chas:
episode to wrestle with eddie's sense of responsibility of masculinity there's

987
01:08:24,860 --> 01:08:28,620
Chas:
a lot about eddie's own relationship with his own father and then just like

988
01:08:28,620 --> 01:08:34,340
Chas:
that beautiful ending scene where he's in his son's bedroom crying in his son's

989
01:08:34,340 --> 01:08:36,760
Chas:
bed saying and apologizing to his son,

990
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,200
Chas:
saying, I failed you.

991
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:44,480
Chas:
Yeah. I mean, now I'm interested, having done all that, how do you think that

992
01:08:44,480 --> 01:08:51,260
Chas:
these raising and resolution of these character questions have for you raised thematic questions?

993
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:53,540
Stu:
Well, okay. So-

994
01:08:53,930 --> 01:08:59,450
Stu:
Why am I watching this is what we've talked about with theme, right?

995
01:08:59,650 --> 01:09:05,490
Stu:
And I think the why in this case, the why done it is why did this character

996
01:09:05,490 --> 01:09:09,510
Stu:
do what they have done to me is a thematic question.

997
01:09:09,690 --> 01:09:16,630
Stu:
It's a more specific version of a thematic question than why am I watching this?

998
01:09:16,770 --> 01:09:20,210
Stu:
But I think maybe whys are theme, right?

999
01:09:20,570 --> 01:09:23,510
Stu:
Thematic questions just have a why in them. Why am I watching this?

1000
01:09:23,510 --> 01:09:24,790
Stu:
Why did the character do this?

1001
01:09:25,230 --> 01:09:27,570
Stu:
Why these are the consequences of that?

1002
01:09:28,130 --> 01:09:31,870
Stu:
Because they kind of make us think about the broader world, right?

1003
01:09:31,950 --> 01:09:36,830
Stu:
So, I think this kind of show has a character theme.

1004
01:09:37,010 --> 01:09:40,430
Stu:
I haven't watched the latest season of White Lotus, but I think if you go through

1005
01:09:40,430 --> 01:09:46,590
Stu:
and watch White Lotus season one, two, and probably three, they've got similar character theme stuff.

1006
01:09:46,790 --> 01:09:51,230
Stu:
Because characters, one, can ask questions that speak, make us prompt questions,

1007
01:09:51,230 --> 01:09:53,130
Stu:
right, when they're talking about their dilemma.

1008
01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:57,670
Stu:
But particularly if we're interested in behavior, that's going to naturally talk to theme.

1009
01:09:57,810 --> 01:10:03,230
Stu:
I mean, I've talked before about one of the reasons I like crime as a genre

1010
01:10:03,230 --> 01:10:07,790
Stu:
is crime exists as a really interesting intersection in society, right?

1011
01:10:07,930 --> 01:10:11,330
Stu:
Like crime is a constructed ideal, idea, right?

1012
01:10:11,570 --> 01:10:15,150
Stu:
That kind of taps into, and criminality, what it taps into psychology,

1013
01:10:15,610 --> 01:10:20,130
Stu:
taps into social, you know, norms, traps into sociology and all these things

1014
01:10:20,130 --> 01:10:24,530
Stu:
that you can explore through crime dramas, which is why I think they're such a great genre.

1015
01:10:25,150 --> 01:10:30,190
Stu:
I mean, we do talk about this, like, you know, there's so many sci-fi stories

1016
01:10:30,190 --> 01:10:35,970
Stu:
that detective investigating a crime in this interesting sci-fi speculative fiction world, right?

1017
01:10:36,070 --> 01:10:40,610
Stu:
That kind of works because one, not only does the detective have a driving purpose

1018
01:10:40,610 --> 01:10:47,810
Stu:
and as a point of view character, but their job is to be in enforcing the rules of that society, right?

1019
01:10:47,810 --> 01:10:48,010
Chas:
Yeah.

1020
01:10:48,070 --> 01:10:52,530
Stu:
Or reacting against them. So I think thematic characters,

1021
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:59,560
Stu:
Character and theme can be related, particularly in stuff that is drama.

1022
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,240
Stu:
And when we're talking about melodrama, if we're interested in stuff that is

1023
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:08,120
Stu:
about the cost of enduring shows that are about the impact of crime,

1024
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:12,460
Stu:
it's going to make the audience ask a lot of questions. And this show can plant seeds.

1025
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:12,740
Chas:
Yeah.

1026
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:17,200
Stu:
Right. And it can do, and it can be incomplete the real time.

1027
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:21,200
Stu:
And this is a quote from Jack Thorne, one of the writers on the show.

1028
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:25,200
Stu:
Because he was like, what I love about the technical restraints of the one shot

1029
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:26,900
Stu:
is it lets the story be incomplete.

1030
01:11:27,620 --> 01:11:32,220
Stu:
If I can't cut anywhere, then it actually takes the pressure off showing you everything.

1031
01:11:32,660 --> 01:11:35,580
Stu:
You don't actually have to show us everything. You can't do it.

1032
01:11:35,660 --> 01:11:39,880
Stu:
And we've got the reason to not do it, to not have the omniscient camera, right?

1033
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,420
Excerpts:
We knew from the very beginning that it was going to be a one shot series.

1034
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,140
Excerpts:
And it didn't complicate the writing at all, actually.

1035
01:11:47,780 --> 01:11:54,540
Excerpts:
One of my heroes is Alan Aitbourne, the playwright, and the way that he uses

1036
01:11:54,540 --> 01:11:56,380
Excerpts:
the technical to free the story

1037
01:11:56,380 --> 01:12:00,420
Excerpts:
was actually the sort of thing that I kept returning to all the time,

1038
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:02,800
Excerpts:
that there's this kind of beauty to go,

1039
01:12:03,100 --> 01:12:05,960
Excerpts:
okay, I'm in a corridor now, what the hell do I do?

1040
01:12:08,020 --> 01:12:14,180
Excerpts:
And being able to tell an incomplete story is actually a real privilege that

1041
01:12:14,180 --> 01:12:19,340
Excerpts:
in TV, the aim is always to go, okay, we need to understand everything.

1042
01:12:19,460 --> 01:12:21,920
Excerpts:
We need to understand everything that's going on all the time.

1043
01:12:22,100 --> 01:12:24,980
Excerpts:
We can cut anywhere, we can go anywhere, we can see everything.

1044
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:28,800
Excerpts:
So let's go inside the legal process. Let's go inside.

1045
01:12:29,850 --> 01:12:35,510
Excerpts:
Eddie is feeling at any time of the day. Let's see everything and actually by

1046
01:12:35,510 --> 01:12:42,690
Excerpts:
only being able to see some things it sort of allows you to have a more profound story.

1047
01:12:42,910 --> 01:12:47,530
Excerpts:
It sort of encourages an audience to sit forward and it encourages you as a

1048
01:12:47,530 --> 01:12:54,750
Excerpts:
writer to to to challenge yourself as to as to what is the important pieces to show.

1049
01:12:54,990 --> 01:12:58,810
Excerpts:
What is the pieces that are going to unlock a conversation? What other pieces

1050
01:12:58,810 --> 01:13:01,310
Excerpts:
that are going to make people think, you know.

1051
01:13:01,630 --> 01:13:05,690
Stu:
And I think that means that they can walk past that conversation in the hallway

1052
01:13:05,690 --> 01:13:09,750
Stu:
with the kids and one of them can bring up, um, Andrew Tate or one of the teachers

1053
01:13:09,750 --> 01:13:11,730
Stu:
can bring up, that was one of the teachers that brings up Andrew Tate,

1054
01:13:11,810 --> 01:13:14,410
Stu:
but one of the kids took about Ripple and they just don't have to come back

1055
01:13:14,410 --> 01:13:16,530
Stu:
to it because we're not going to see those kids again.

1056
01:13:16,630 --> 01:13:16,790
Chas:
Yeah.

1057
01:13:16,950 --> 01:13:21,370
Stu:
Right. So they can just float this thing, right. Blow this bubble of an idea

1058
01:13:21,370 --> 01:13:24,210
Stu:
in the air and kind of move on. Right.

1059
01:13:24,330 --> 01:13:24,470
Chas:
Yeah.

1060
01:13:24,470 --> 01:13:30,190
Stu:
And I think that is a really good, powerful combination of technique impacting

1061
01:13:30,190 --> 01:13:35,790
Stu:
the thematic purpose of this, because the camera is about being immersive and

1062
01:13:35,790 --> 01:13:37,050
Stu:
about bringing us into a world.

1063
01:13:37,190 --> 01:13:42,470
Stu:
And so, these questions, these characters that Mander and Eddie are asking of

1064
01:13:42,470 --> 01:13:46,030
Stu:
each other, we don't expect them to answer, because the show,

1065
01:13:46,130 --> 01:13:47,510
Stu:
particularly by the fourth episode,

1066
01:13:47,830 --> 01:13:50,750
Stu:
is clearly told us we're only spending one hour with them, and we know that

1067
01:13:50,750 --> 01:13:52,790
Stu:
these characters are going to be with their grief for a long time.

1068
01:13:52,790 --> 01:13:56,490
Stu:
So we don't, the story up there may be a feature film, which is about a parent

1069
01:13:56,490 --> 01:13:59,790
Stu:
coming to terms, you know, I mean, we need to talk, you know,

1070
01:13:59,850 --> 01:14:00,870
Stu:
we need to talk about Kevin.

1071
01:14:01,430 --> 01:14:06,050
Stu:
Same kind of idea, I guess, but I haven't seen it. So I don't know whether she

1072
01:14:06,050 --> 01:14:07,670
Stu:
ultimately comes to terms with that or not.

1073
01:14:08,690 --> 01:14:14,130
Chas:
I would make an observation. I think, you know, this is so clearly melodrama,

1074
01:14:14,250 --> 01:14:16,170
Chas:
but that's neither here nor there.

1075
01:14:16,170 --> 01:14:23,530
Chas:
I think a show that deliberately has fewer and fewer plot questions as it progresses

1076
01:14:23,530 --> 01:14:28,930
Chas:
and really focuses on the character questions, but does to an extent.

1077
01:14:28,930 --> 01:14:34,290
Chas:
I know you're saying that they're unresolved or not necessarily completed,

1078
01:14:34,290 --> 01:14:41,570
Chas:
but I think it has fewer and fewer of those questions and also shows us the futility.

1079
01:14:42,170 --> 01:14:45,230
Chas:
I mean, almost by telling us that they're impossible to answer,

1080
01:14:45,430 --> 01:14:49,670
Chas:
it does make us step back and ask these thematic questions. You know,

1081
01:14:49,790 --> 01:14:55,830
Chas:
it's not to say that every melodrama will be asking thematic questions, right?

1082
01:14:55,970 --> 01:15:01,150
Chas:
Just by focusing on impossible to resolve character questions.

1083
01:15:01,290 --> 01:15:06,970
Chas:
I think this show in particular does, you know, that second episode to me,

1084
01:15:07,190 --> 01:15:11,470
Chas:
it broadened the world out and introduced us to all these characters that just

1085
01:15:11,470 --> 01:15:13,530
Chas:
sort of come and go, like Ryan,

1086
01:15:13,770 --> 01:15:17,270
Chas:
like Jay, like these teachers and even Adam.

1087
01:15:17,670 --> 01:15:19,710
Chas:
Right? the detective's son.

1088
01:15:20,050 --> 01:15:27,950
Chas:
So, it raises them up as all examples and paradigms of this sort of uncaring world.

1089
01:15:28,230 --> 01:15:33,990
Chas:
And it's by being so shallow and superficial as that second episode is,

1090
01:15:34,070 --> 01:15:37,630
Chas:
and I mean that in a good way, right? We're not taking deep dives into who Ryan is.

1091
01:15:37,730 --> 01:15:40,090
Chas:
We're not taking deep dives into who Jade is.

1092
01:15:40,230 --> 01:15:45,050
Chas:
We're not taking deep dives into who Adam is in the same way that we are with,

1093
01:15:45,050 --> 01:15:51,050
Chas:
you know, Jamie and Bryony in episode three, and then the Miller family in episode four.

1094
01:15:51,210 --> 01:15:57,690
Chas:
It is forcing us to go, what is this show about? Why is it showing us these things?

1095
01:15:57,910 --> 01:16:03,390
Chas:
Right? And I think really importantly for me, this fourth episode,

1096
01:16:03,650 --> 01:16:10,710
Chas:
what it does, what it has done by and triggering the discussion that it has

1097
01:16:10,710 --> 01:16:13,150
Chas:
is right up until that episode.

1098
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:19,620
Chas:
We could have squarely blamed Eddie for Jamie.

1099
01:16:20,580 --> 01:16:25,420
Chas:
We had not been shown anything really about Eddie's character as an audience

1100
01:16:25,420 --> 01:16:31,700
Chas:
that would have made us go, oh, well, he's just the product of an angry man or a misogynist, right?

1101
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,700
Chas:
And what that fourth episode does is it so clearly,

1102
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:41,720
Chas:
it shows a man who loves and respects It's his wife and his daughter who has

1103
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:46,880
Chas:
experienced violence but not perpetuated it on his son, who feels anger but

1104
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,700
Chas:
is dedicating himself to overcoming it.

1105
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:51,320
Stu:
He's still violent.

1106
01:16:51,460 --> 01:16:51,620
Chas:
Yeah.

1107
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:53,720
Stu:
I don't think you can say he's not.

1108
01:16:54,100 --> 01:16:59,880
Chas:
No, no. He assaults those two kids, but he never touched his son. No.

1109
01:17:00,020 --> 01:17:05,540
Stu:
He doesn't punch them, but he picks up the kid and you can see he doesn't throttle him.

1110
01:17:05,540 --> 01:17:05,780
Chas:
Yeah.

1111
01:17:05,940 --> 01:17:09,720
Stu:
Takes out his anger on inanimate objects, right?

1112
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:14,820
Stu:
Like he redirects the anger to the van and, you know, he may be threatening, but.

1113
01:17:15,460 --> 01:17:22,040
Chas:
But importantly for me, by doing all of that, it's telling us as an audience, this could be you.

1114
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:22,640
Stu:
Yeah.

1115
01:17:22,780 --> 01:17:27,360
Chas:
These are not monsters creating a monster. They are reinforcing that these are

1116
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:29,240
Chas:
run of the mill everyday family.

1117
01:17:29,540 --> 01:17:33,300
Chas:
And so it forces us to go, what would I do in this situation?

1118
01:17:33,660 --> 01:17:37,920
Stu:
And again, I'm not, I mean, again, they actually have talked about that Steve

1119
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:40,240
Stu:
Graham and Jack Thorne that they wanted, they wanted that.

1120
01:17:40,580 --> 01:17:44,760
Excerpts:
This wasn't about othering, Jamie. Don't put this in the extraordinary.

1121
01:17:45,480 --> 01:17:49,820
Excerpts:
Make this feel like it could happen to you because that is the reality of what

1122
01:17:49,820 --> 01:17:53,400
Excerpts:
is happening in our world it could happen to anybody you know what i mean we

1123
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:56,280
Excerpts:
thought it'd be interesting to shine a light on the devastation that causes

1124
01:17:56,280 --> 01:17:58,360
Excerpts:
you know the ripple effect that that has on everybody.

1125
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:04,180
Stu:
It's not that we're finding you know we have solved the matrix puzzle of of

1126
01:18:04,180 --> 01:18:07,720
Stu:
adolescence i like it when we're like oh i think this is what they're trying

1127
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:11,340
Stu:
to do and then they might not use these term the exact terms that we are but

1128
01:18:11,340 --> 01:18:14,980
Stu:
they kind of go yeah we want to make people go oh this could be us And because

1129
01:18:14,980 --> 01:18:15,720
Stu:
what they're not talking about,

1130
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:18,640
Stu:
they're not saying this could be us as in, I could be Eddie.

1131
01:18:19,440 --> 01:18:22,680
Stu:
Stephen Graham is not going to be a 13 year old kid, right?

1132
01:18:22,740 --> 01:18:26,980
Stu:
When he's saying this could be anyone, he's talking about having someone commit

1133
01:18:26,980 --> 01:18:30,660
Stu:
violence within your family. And how do you deal with that?

1134
01:18:30,780 --> 01:18:34,260
Stu:
And then it may seemingly come out of nowhere, right?

1135
01:18:35,380 --> 01:18:38,300
Stu:
Absolutely feels like a very clear intentionality.

1136
01:18:39,100 --> 01:18:44,180
Stu:
Like, I think this is a show where they had a very clear idea of what they wanted to do, right?

1137
01:18:44,300 --> 01:18:47,620
Stu:
And had the expertise.

1138
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:51,940
Stu:
I mean, Jack Thorne is an incredible writer on his own. Stephen Graham,

1139
01:18:52,480 --> 01:18:53,920
Stu:
you know, Philip is the director.

1140
01:18:54,220 --> 01:19:00,120
Stu:
Like, that whole team came in and were able to thread the needle to find a way

1141
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:05,360
Stu:
of telling the story to explore the kind of questions that they wanted to explore.

1142
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:07,960
Stu:
And we're only looking at it on the macro level.

1143
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:12,440
Stu:
I do think it's worth going into some of the micro stuff we haven't kind of

1144
01:19:12,440 --> 01:19:13,920
Stu:
dived into before we wrap up.

1145
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,200
Stu:
I do want to say in terms of the melodrama thing, I'm just going to give the

1146
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:18,360
Stu:
speech that I didn't give at the beginning.

1147
01:19:19,460 --> 01:19:24,560
Stu:
The way I think about genre, and we talked about this on two episodes about genre,

1148
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:28,220
Stu:
but I'm interested in the emotional contract, what I call the emotional contract

1149
01:19:28,220 --> 01:19:32,640
Stu:
between a show and a film, because I think for me as a writer thinking about

1150
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:38,900
Stu:
genre isn't from a high school English or a taxonomical kind of point of view.

1151
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:42,380
Stu:
It's that there is a relationship between an audience and a text,

1152
01:19:42,460 --> 01:19:45,100
Stu:
and there's a reason they watch the thing.

1153
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:50,540
Stu:
Why do they pick that thing? It's because they want to think and feel in a particular way, right?

1154
01:19:50,740 --> 01:19:55,220
Stu:
And then over time, writers have evolved ways, levers that they can use to kind

1155
01:19:55,220 --> 01:19:59,120
Stu:
of do the thinking and the feeling in that particular way, right?

1156
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:00,700
Stu:
That's kind of what we were exploring.

1157
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:04,660
Stu:
And for me, melodrama is about big emotion.

1158
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:08,800
Stu:
I watch melodrama because I want to feel big emotion. That may come out of the

1159
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:14,880
Stu:
exaggerated kind of performances or it might come out of heightened performances, right?

1160
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:19,980
Stu:
I do think there is an element of melodrama in Mike Lee's work, right?

1161
01:20:20,660 --> 01:20:25,000
Stu:
As realistic and realism to me as a style,

1162
01:20:25,660 --> 01:20:28,700
Stu:
you know, the reason that we can't understand what people are saying on TV at

1163
01:20:28,700 --> 01:20:34,840
Stu:
the moment is the consequences of realism being the push in a lot of similar

1164
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:40,200
Stu:
and night scenes that no one can see is because people are pushing for realism

1165
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:41,900
Stu:
and authenticity, right?

1166
01:20:42,220 --> 01:20:46,540
Chas:
But Ken Loach's stuff is melodrama without being quote unquote melodramatic.

1167
01:20:47,220 --> 01:20:51,460
Stu:
Exactly, right? And, and to me, there's two sides of the, the,

1168
01:20:51,660 --> 01:20:53,340
Stu:
that kind of social realism versus melodrama.

1169
01:20:53,500 --> 01:20:58,200
Stu:
They're kind of two sides of the same coin. They're all about big emotion, uh, and exploring.

1170
01:20:58,460 --> 01:21:02,100
Stu:
And one of the tools they use to create that emotion is someone that's ordinary.

1171
01:21:02,100 --> 01:21:07,980
Stu:
It's not comedy, but it is about a character that doesn't have the skills to solve the plot problem.

1172
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:13,880
Stu:
Right. Which is they, you know, Eddie and Mander are not going to be able to

1173
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:14,920
Stu:
get their sons out of prison.

1174
01:21:15,140 --> 01:21:19,460
Stu:
You know, they're, they're not Helen Mirren in, you know, the Fast and the Furious

1175
01:21:19,460 --> 01:21:22,700
Stu:
films trying to rescue Jason Stratham, you know, or that's a weird pull,

1176
01:21:22,780 --> 01:21:24,060
Stu:
but you know, like that's.

1177
01:21:24,300 --> 01:21:27,100
Chas:
They're not going to be able to undo what Jamie has done.

1178
01:21:27,260 --> 01:21:27,460
Stu:
Yeah.

1179
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:30,840
Chas:
I think is almost more their powerlessness.

1180
01:21:31,620 --> 01:21:33,240
Stu:
Jamie can't undo what he's done.

1181
01:21:33,480 --> 01:21:33,700
Chas:
Yeah.

1182
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:37,920
Stu:
Right. As much as, I'm going to use your word, as much as Jamie is kind of the

1183
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:40,100
Stu:
shark in this film, right.

1184
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:42,680
Chas:
I haven't used that in this episode, but we talked about it off mic.

1185
01:21:43,060 --> 01:21:45,560
Stu:
I know. And it's a really great pull because ultimately we don't actually spend

1186
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:50,140
Stu:
much time in Jamie's point of view. You know, part of the way we ask why about

1187
01:21:50,140 --> 01:21:53,660
Stu:
Jamie is by not giving us that much access to Jamie, right?

1188
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:59,700
Stu:
So we can kind of project ideas onto him, project, it actually tries to not

1189
01:21:59,700 --> 01:22:02,980
Stu:
give us, it's a great performance that we don't have much access to, right?

1190
01:22:02,980 --> 01:22:07,900
Stu:
And in the third episode, he kind of does feel a little bit like a teenager playing evil,

1191
01:22:08,100 --> 01:22:11,360
Stu:
but I think it kind of works because you're like, maybe he's just trying to,

1192
01:22:11,500 --> 01:22:15,640
Stu:
he's a teenager deliberately trying to play evil, like he's being performative

1193
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:18,740
Stu:
for the psychologist. So I think it kind of works.

1194
01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:22,480
Chas:
I mean, there were a couple of shifts in there that felt a bit-

1195
01:22:23,310 --> 01:22:30,670
Chas:
performatively evil but i still bought it because it felt like he was being

1196
01:22:30,670 --> 01:22:34,730
Chas:
so careful in that with her and he was trying to push her.

1197
01:22:34,730 --> 01:22:39,030
Stu:
Boundaries oh the the boo when he's standing over her and it was really tense

1198
01:22:39,030 --> 01:22:44,210
Stu:
and he boos and like that feels really authentic to how teenagers try to show

1199
01:22:44,210 --> 01:22:48,270
Stu:
power to teachers where they know they don't really have power but they kind

1200
01:22:48,270 --> 01:22:50,030
Stu:
of want to really push that bound,

1201
01:22:50,230 --> 01:22:54,030
Stu:
like right up to that line of what they can get away with.

1202
01:22:55,250 --> 01:22:59,430
Stu:
So that's part of the reason I was interested in this in melodrama is because

1203
01:22:59,430 --> 01:23:03,150
Stu:
this is a show I don't think at the beginning, like I knew it was going to be

1204
01:23:03,150 --> 01:23:08,550
Stu:
a tough watch, but not necessarily in the big emotion, tough watch.

1205
01:23:08,750 --> 01:23:11,510
Stu:
And it took us four episodes to get there.

1206
01:23:11,610 --> 01:23:15,670
Stu:
So it's harrowing from the beginning and even, you know, episode three is really

1207
01:23:15,670 --> 01:23:21,430
Stu:
kind of like intense right but it has to do a lot of work to get us to this

1208
01:23:21,430 --> 01:23:24,850
Stu:
four episode with all that like that emotional catharsis right.

1209
01:23:24,850 --> 01:23:26,950
Chas:
Yeah anyway.

1210
01:23:26,950 --> 01:23:30,890
Stu:
Should we go into the micro is there anything you feel specifically you want

1211
01:23:30,890 --> 01:23:32,430
Stu:
to talk about or should we just.

1212
01:23:32,430 --> 01:23:35,150
Chas:
Free flow so i mean we can

1213
01:23:35,150 --> 01:23:37,830
Chas:
free flow i mean really and and i

1214
01:23:37,830 --> 01:23:41,350
Chas:
think i'm hoping that i will in this discussion answer julian's

1215
01:23:41,350 --> 01:23:44,990
Chas:
questions uh but i

1216
01:23:44,990 --> 01:23:47,670
Chas:
think the i'm coming back to

1217
01:23:47,670 --> 01:23:50,490
Chas:
what i said at the beginning they've chosen to have

1218
01:23:50,490 --> 01:23:53,890
Chas:
this unity in time because it creates

1219
01:23:53,890 --> 01:23:58,050
Chas:
urgency and it creates immediacy

1220
01:23:58,050 --> 01:24:01,410
Chas:
and and thus tension while when

1221
01:24:01,410 --> 01:24:05,410
Chas:
there's not actually a lot happening right like that's not

1222
01:24:05,410 --> 01:24:08,410
Chas:
a fair description but like if you look at the the first

1223
01:24:08,410 --> 01:24:11,370
Chas:
episode it really is just

1224
01:24:11,370 --> 01:24:14,510
Chas:
it's quite mundane deliberately mundane like

1225
01:24:14,510 --> 01:24:17,890
Chas:
obviously there's a raid at the beginning and that's not mundane but then you've

1226
01:24:17,890 --> 01:24:22,970
Chas:
got a car ride taking of some bureaucratic notes and being offered cornflakes

1227
01:24:22,970 --> 01:24:29,330
Chas:
a talk with a nurse search like it's treated as banal deliberately so what am

1228
01:24:29,330 --> 01:24:31,710
Chas:
i trying to get to here so julian asks.

1229
01:24:32,190 --> 01:24:34,590
Chas:
How do they stop the camera being a protagonist?

1230
01:24:34,890 --> 01:24:38,850
Chas:
Well, I think that's because the intention of the one-er, and you had this comment

1231
01:24:38,850 --> 01:24:41,430
Chas:
in when we did our one-er episode,

1232
01:24:41,430 --> 01:24:47,230
Chas:
you were talking about the writers in those sequences are not talking about

1233
01:24:47,230 --> 01:24:51,710
Chas:
the fact that it's a camera because they don't want the reader to be drawn directly.

1234
01:24:52,030 --> 01:24:54,690
Chas:
Have their attention drawn to the camera, to the filmmaking.

1235
01:24:54,950 --> 01:25:00,550
Chas:
And I think as much as this is a show where every man and his dog is talking

1236
01:25:00,550 --> 01:25:03,390
Chas:
about how each episode is a one, and when you're watching it.

1237
01:25:03,950 --> 01:25:07,910
Chas:
Even, I think you probably more than me, but there was only a few moments where

1238
01:25:07,910 --> 01:25:14,630
Chas:
I felt the camera work was drawing attention to itself rather than serving the

1239
01:25:14,630 --> 01:25:18,650
Chas:
intentionality of raising these character questions, raising this urgency,

1240
01:25:18,890 --> 01:25:20,870
Chas:
raising this immediacy.

1241
01:25:21,790 --> 01:25:25,770
Chas:
So, you talked about the drone shot in the second episode.

1242
01:25:25,930 --> 01:25:29,930
Chas:
That's one where they very deliberately drew attention to the camera work.

1243
01:25:30,010 --> 01:25:35,690
Stu:
Oh, and the shot going through the window when Ryan escapes.

1244
01:25:36,150 --> 01:25:38,810
Stu:
Because they're, you know, because they talked about as much,

1245
01:25:39,010 --> 01:25:43,110
Stu:
the DP has talked about how they've wanted the camera to be,

1246
01:25:43,230 --> 01:25:46,910
Stu:
it doesn't go anywhere without a character. Like, it has to go somewhere with the character.

1247
01:25:46,990 --> 01:25:50,210
Stu:
And those two moments that we've pointed out are moments where there's not a

1248
01:25:50,210 --> 01:25:52,350
Stu:
character leading the action, right?

1249
01:25:52,650 --> 01:25:57,090
Excerpts:
I'd written in this chase sequence, and this chase sequence took Bascom and

1250
01:25:57,090 --> 01:26:00,350
Excerpts:
this boy beside the murder site, and then the camera was going to travel back

1251
01:26:00,350 --> 01:26:01,850
Excerpts:
on its own back to the school.

1252
01:26:02,620 --> 01:26:06,600
Excerpts:
That moment would have felt almost like a video game walking down the street.

1253
01:26:06,820 --> 01:26:09,780
Excerpts:
I think it would just take the audience away from what the piece is.

1254
01:26:10,100 --> 01:26:14,360
Excerpts:
And then Phil called me up and he said, Matt and I think we found a way to make the camera fly.

1255
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:18,500
Stu:
The drone particularly has this feeling, almost like a thematic feeling,

1256
01:26:18,500 --> 01:26:22,980
Stu:
and it's got the kids singing because it picks up and gives us a God's eye view.

1257
01:26:23,480 --> 01:26:27,220
Stu:
It's very clearly not a point of view, and they decided to do that to then kind

1258
01:26:27,220 --> 01:26:29,020
Stu:
of break us and find Eddie.

1259
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:33,440
Stu:
So it gives us a moment of introspection. And I think the moment of like,

1260
01:26:33,540 --> 01:26:37,940
Stu:
oh, the camera's flying now is actually like, and then it actually sits in it

1261
01:26:37,940 --> 01:26:39,680
Stu:
and you go- Why is it flying?

1262
01:26:39,860 --> 01:26:44,200
Chas:
Where are we going? Like it's wanting us, there's intention to it.

1263
01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:44,740
Stu:
Exactly.

1264
01:26:44,940 --> 01:26:47,280
Chas:
It wants us as the audience to feel that way.

1265
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:52,500
Excerpts:
If the camera could float away by itself, then it couldn't possibly be attached

1266
01:26:52,500 --> 01:26:54,320
Excerpts:
to a person. It kind of feels more ethereal.

1267
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:58,980
Excerpts:
So you've got Baskin finding his own sort of resolution and you're with this

1268
01:26:58,980 --> 01:27:01,360
Excerpts:
character, Jade, whose heart is pulled out.

1269
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,420
Excerpts:
And you're with all these kids as they pull out their phones and then the camera

1270
01:27:05,420 --> 01:27:09,540
Excerpts:
takes off and the camera comes to rest at the murder site it was an example

1271
01:27:09,540 --> 01:27:14,580
Excerpts:
of the technical meeting the story and finding a fusion which is actually better

1272
01:27:14,580 --> 01:27:16,960
Excerpts:
than anything that the story had come up with on its own.

1273
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,480
Stu:
The the camera through the window feels

1274
01:27:20,480 --> 01:27:23,860
Stu:
a little bit more like just a pacing choice that

1275
01:27:23,860 --> 01:27:26,700
Stu:
that kind of seeing ryan run off

1276
01:27:26,700 --> 01:27:31,060
Stu:
finding the detective and then following the detective was just going to be

1277
01:27:31,060 --> 01:27:35,000
Stu:
too complex and possibly not going to have the adrenaline that they're looking

1278
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:41,320
Stu:
for but there's like it also feels like it's out of a like the great shot from

1279
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:45,140
Stu:
i think it's the second born where the born jump cameraman.

1280
01:27:45,140 --> 01:27:46,540
Chas:
Jumps through the.

1281
01:27:46,540 --> 01:27:51,120
Stu:
Behind born right it's got a bit of that feeling yeah that it's kind of like

1282
01:27:51,120 --> 01:27:55,700
Stu:
oh we're with the detective um you know we're just kind of leading him at this

1283
01:27:55,700 --> 01:27:56,740
Stu:
point rather than following him.

1284
01:27:56,740 --> 01:28:02,180
Chas:
And they got incredible coverage right like there's some of those great like,

1285
01:28:03,140 --> 01:28:07,160
Chas:
We were talking about it before, Mike, you talked about it like Steven Spielberg

1286
01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:14,180
Chas:
coverage, like that scene between Eddie, Amanda in that fourth episode where

1287
01:28:14,180 --> 01:28:15,680
Chas:
they're talking about their responsibility.

1288
01:28:15,980 --> 01:28:22,060
Chas:
It shifts almost effortlessly from two shots to like close ups with foreground

1289
01:28:22,060 --> 01:28:23,940
Chas:
and background action and back again.

1290
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:27,260
Chas:
And it's so well blocked and so well performed. But there is coverage,

1291
01:28:27,440 --> 01:28:34,360
Chas:
you know, they're very deliberate in the interrogation scene with Bryony. as to whom they're on.

1292
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:37,300
Chas:
Like, we're actually on Jamie for a lot more than we're on Brian.

1293
01:28:37,300 --> 01:28:42,920
Stu:
I mean, we're now getting into a little bit of a review, but for me,

1294
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:46,480
Stu:
the third episode had the least motivated camera work.

1295
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,760
Stu:
Like, where it was just doing the orbiting and it felt a little bit contrived

1296
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:55,560
Stu:
because Jamie will give a speech and then the camera will slowly creep over to find Brian.

1297
01:28:55,560 --> 01:29:00,120
Stu:
He finished his speech just in time for her to deliver her dialogue.

1298
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:04,080
Stu:
And I'm like, hmm, I wonder if they had to ADR that speech to get the timing

1299
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:08,060
Stu:
right. Or does the operator just know the timing perfectly to get the rhythm of it?

1300
01:29:08,260 --> 01:29:11,720
Stu:
Because it just felt so artificial to me, right?

1301
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:14,780
Stu:
I absolutely know it's my aesthetic sensitivity. I've worked in,

1302
01:29:15,260 --> 01:29:18,640
Stu:
you know, I've been editing stuff since the 90s, since I was a teenager.

1303
01:29:19,340 --> 01:29:24,280
Stu:
So, that kind of stuff just feels constructed to me in a way that if this wasn't

1304
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:26,920
Stu:
actually a documentary, you'd be struggling to find that stuff.

1305
01:29:28,380 --> 01:29:32,020
Stu:
Right? Uh, or you'd be like doing the, anyway.

1306
01:29:32,860 --> 01:29:38,820
Chas:
But my broad point is that they're wanting to use the, the constraint or dare

1307
01:29:38,820 --> 01:29:41,320
Chas:
I say gimmick of one shot.

1308
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:45,500
Chas:
Right. And, and we've read articles about the amount of investment and technological

1309
01:29:45,500 --> 01:29:51,040
Chas:
work and VFX that they've had to do to pull off that one.

1310
01:29:51,460 --> 01:29:56,160
Chas:
Uh, but they've done it to create the urgency and immediacy,

1311
01:29:56,220 --> 01:30:00,380
Chas:
but they are still focused. Their intention is still about character questions.

1312
01:30:00,620 --> 01:30:04,400
Chas:
It's not about, you know, we looked at the adventures of Tintin.

1313
01:30:04,620 --> 01:30:11,000
Chas:
In that sequence, the one was not about us understanding the internality of

1314
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:12,480
Chas:
Tintin, Haddock, and Snowy.

1315
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:15,320
Chas:
It was about the spectacle. It was drawing- Yeah.

1316
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:20,360
Stu:
Almost the Rube Goldberg machine, like the clockwork precision of this chase

1317
01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:24,780
Stu:
and how cause and effect kind of stumbles together, right?

1318
01:30:24,780 --> 01:30:29,880
Stu:
And this feels like part of the character questions is served by the fact that

1319
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:31,240
Stu:
the characters can't escape.

1320
01:30:31,480 --> 01:30:38,220
Stu:
By playing out in real time with a shot that does not cut, the characters have got nowhere to go.

1321
01:30:38,340 --> 01:30:41,760
Stu:
So it is pushing character, right?

1322
01:30:42,820 --> 01:30:45,360
Chas:
Except when the writers want them to go there.

1323
01:30:45,480 --> 01:30:45,660
Stu:
Yeah.

1324
01:30:46,060 --> 01:30:51,680
Chas:
Like, let them off the hook, which is the French scenes aspect of it.

1325
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:54,300
Stu:
Yeah, I will give you the definition of French scenes in a moment.

1326
01:30:54,460 --> 01:30:57,540
Stu:
But I do want to say that my personal definition of a scene,

1327
01:30:57,580 --> 01:31:00,540
Stu:
which I think we talked about in the one episode, is that for me,

1328
01:31:00,620 --> 01:31:05,860
Stu:
a scene generally kind of has unity of time, unity of place, and unity of action.

1329
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:10,600
Stu:
That's what I'm kind of was defining. And you could add unity of time to that.

1330
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:20,380
Stu:
And it's kind of interesting that one is start to make stories feel like they give a cohesion to it.

1331
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:24,760
Stu:
They disunify it by playing it all in one shot in real time. Right.

1332
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:31,240
Chas:
Now, in terms of the micro, how do they cope with this unity of time?

1333
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:37,900
Chas:
By the nature of their narrative choices, they've had more challenges in pacing

1334
01:31:37,900 --> 01:31:44,360
Chas:
in episodes one and two where you have multiple storylines and multiple groups

1335
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:49,000
Chas:
of characters than you do in episodes three and four.

1336
01:31:49,620 --> 01:31:54,480
Chas:
Episode three largely all happens in one room with two characters.

1337
01:31:54,860 --> 01:32:00,360
Chas:
Episode four, there is a lot more. There's the three characters of the family.

1338
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:03,200
Chas:
They get leave the house

1339
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:06,640
Chas:
drive the van to the hardware store

1340
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:09,460
Chas:
they buy the paint they have the

1341
01:32:09,460 --> 01:32:12,200
Chas:
physical eddie has the physical altercation with the kids

1342
01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:15,100
Chas:
that he thinks has have graffitied his

1343
01:32:15,100 --> 01:32:17,780
Chas:
van they drive back they have the

1344
01:32:17,780 --> 01:32:20,980
Chas:
call and then they're back in the home again but

1345
01:32:20,980 --> 01:32:23,660
Chas:
even on all of that there isn't the

1346
01:32:23,660 --> 01:32:26,620
Chas:
same shifts of point of view and i'd like to just

1347
01:32:26,620 --> 01:32:29,340
Chas:
draw in episode one i think i'm

1348
01:32:29,340 --> 01:32:32,240
Chas:
going to be talking about most of my observations because it's like you've chosen

1349
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:35,300
Chas:
this constraint you're wanting to do something in real time and the

1350
01:32:35,300 --> 01:32:38,400
Chas:
project i'm doing i'm not going to shoot it as a one or it's not

1351
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:41,320
Chas:
going to be written as a one there's going to be lots of

1352
01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:44,040
Chas:
editing uh but it is supposed to be

1353
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:47,960
Chas:
happening in real time as it were so i'm

1354
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:50,800
Chas:
looking at this and going all right what tools that they used here

1355
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:54,200
Chas:
that i can i can steal or make

1356
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:57,820
Chas:
use of and i think in episode one they have

1357
01:32:57,820 --> 01:33:00,960
Chas:
lots of point of view shifts where they shift from the

1358
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:03,820
Chas:
perspective character but there's not actually when i think about

1359
01:33:03,820 --> 01:33:07,620
Chas:
it there's not actually a ton of narrative point

1360
01:33:07,620 --> 01:33:10,720
Chas:
of view shifts in real and what i'm you

1361
01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:13,500
Chas:
know drawing the distinction of what does.

1362
01:33:13,500 --> 01:33:16,600
Chas:
The audience know in relation to the character that they're

1363
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:20,320
Chas:
following right and in episode one the

1364
01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:25,640
Chas:
detectives know more than every other character in the show and more than the

1365
01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:30,180
Chas:
audience so we're always behind the detectives we only catch up with them right

1366
01:33:30,180 --> 01:33:37,580
Chas:
at the end when we have that big emotional event but every other character be it,

1367
01:33:38,070 --> 01:33:45,350
Chas:
Jamie, Jamie's family, the lawyer, the social worker, the administrative police

1368
01:33:45,350 --> 01:33:48,670
Chas:
person, the nurse, they all know just as much as Jamie.

1369
01:33:48,810 --> 01:33:52,530
Chas:
They're meeting Jamie for the first time, right? They don't really know what he's done.

1370
01:33:52,630 --> 01:33:57,310
Chas:
There's some talk about murder, but they don't know the details of the case.

1371
01:33:57,510 --> 01:34:04,650
Chas:
And so there's not actually that many shifts in narrative point of view in episode

1372
01:34:04,650 --> 01:34:09,770
Chas:
one, which surprises me when I think back to it. There are lots of shifts of point of view.

1373
01:34:10,290 --> 01:34:14,970
Chas:
So, what do they do? They're really selective in- they know when they've got

1374
01:34:14,970 --> 01:34:21,370
Chas:
travel time between locations and they've filled that travel time either with scenes.

1375
01:34:21,530 --> 01:34:26,970
Chas:
So, the drive, they've got that great scene from the drive from the arrest of

1376
01:34:26,970 --> 01:34:31,290
Chas:
Jamie to the police station where it's like almost a- Yeah.

1377
01:34:31,390 --> 01:34:35,230
Chas:
It's the reading of Jamie's rights and explaining to him what's going to happen.

1378
01:34:36,490 --> 01:34:40,030
Chas:
So they either and and often you

1379
01:34:40,030 --> 01:34:43,530
Chas:
know they some of these scenes i feel

1380
01:34:43,530 --> 01:34:46,310
Chas:
like are only there to maintain pacing so that because they

1381
01:34:46,310 --> 01:34:49,110
Chas:
don't want to just sit with an actor or a character

1382
01:34:49,110 --> 01:34:51,770
Chas:
moving along a corridor from one location to the

1383
01:34:51,770 --> 01:34:54,810
Chas:
next so they're doing these these french scenes

1384
01:34:54,810 --> 01:35:01,010
Chas:
and i think one of the most remarkable things that they did with the writing

1385
01:35:01,010 --> 01:35:07,170
Chas:
of that episode one is they have introduced almost every single character before

1386
01:35:07,170 --> 01:35:12,290
Chas:
we meet them so that we very rarely spend time when we're meeting a new character

1387
01:35:12,290 --> 01:35:13,830
Chas:
when we've shifted point of view,

1388
01:35:14,330 --> 01:35:18,170
Chas:
sitting in trying to ask those questions of who is this what do they want what

1389
01:35:18,170 --> 01:35:24,130
Chas:
are they trying to do yeah and what do i mean by that so jamie is told by the

1390
01:35:24,130 --> 01:35:28,890
Chas:
police officer what to what will happen when he reaches the police station he's

1391
01:35:28,890 --> 01:35:33,790
Chas:
told by the police officer recommended to ask for a lawyer Jamie is asked if he wants a lawyer.

1392
01:35:34,170 --> 01:35:38,550
Chas:
And then the lawyer appears. We know who he is and what his role is.

1393
01:35:38,750 --> 01:35:44,130
Chas:
There is an entire conversation about how the procedure that they have to go through before,

1394
01:35:45,260 --> 01:35:52,380
Chas:
They can interview Jamie, involves him having a health check and then separately a strip search.

1395
01:35:53,020 --> 01:35:56,540
Chas:
And they say there's a scene where the two cops are talking about,

1396
01:35:56,700 --> 01:36:00,580
Chas:
we need this to happen and this to happen and this to happen. And this person is late.

1397
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:01,840
Stu:
Yeah, clever.

1398
01:36:02,160 --> 01:36:06,400
Chas:
So that when that person arrives, we know who they are, what their role is,

1399
01:36:06,580 --> 01:36:07,920
Chas:
what they're there to do.

1400
01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:11,300
Stu:
And then it just means it presents that person in character.

1401
01:36:11,300 --> 01:36:16,200
Stu:
So, they just come in slightly shitty about the fact that this has all happened so early.

1402
01:36:16,940 --> 01:36:21,360
Chas:
So, it's remarkable writing because what they are in such good control of is

1403
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:24,720
Chas:
what questions they want the audience asking at any given point in time.

1404
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:30,860
Chas:
And when they want to have the pace slowed down, when they want the audience

1405
01:36:30,860 --> 01:36:34,920
Chas:
to dwell a little more in character questions, they just don't have to move

1406
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:39,660
Chas:
location or they stay with someone. Like, I've got a particular memory of D.I.

1407
01:36:39,740 --> 01:36:42,700
Chas:
Bascom eating an apple as he's walking along a corridor.

1408
01:36:42,860 --> 01:36:47,060
Chas:
I think they just took a moment where he could, like, breathe and let out the

1409
01:36:47,060 --> 01:36:51,260
Chas:
adrenaline of what he's just gone through before he's preparing for the next thing.

1410
01:36:51,380 --> 01:36:55,800
Stu:
And this is just a broader observation, which is, I think, the show is really

1411
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:59,200
Stu:
good at filling space with all these characters.

1412
01:36:59,600 --> 01:36:59,920
Chas:
Right?

1413
01:36:59,920 --> 01:37:02,760
Stu:
It wouldn't surprise me, though, in terms of how the show was made,

1414
01:37:02,820 --> 01:37:07,020
Stu:
they had one week rehearsal, one week tech rehearsal, and then they had one

1415
01:37:07,020 --> 01:37:10,000
Stu:
week to shoot it doing two takes a day.

1416
01:37:10,440 --> 01:37:13,960
Stu:
Three of the four episodes where they used the take from the last day.

1417
01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:16,540
Stu:
So, effectively, they had four days of rehearsal.

1418
01:37:17,460 --> 01:37:20,980
Stu:
Really just where it's like the stakes are high. Except the first episode,

1419
01:37:21,100 --> 01:37:23,320
Stu:
which was from day one, which is interesting.

1420
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:30,160
Chas:
Oh, wow. So, they used the take from day one of the shooting. Wow.

1421
01:37:31,200 --> 01:37:34,780
Stu:
Episode one. That's not what they shot first. They shot episode three first,

1422
01:37:34,940 --> 01:37:38,380
Stu:
which kind of made- makes sense that they wanted to get the head around the

1423
01:37:38,380 --> 01:37:40,280
Stu:
logistics of this all. Anyway.

1424
01:37:40,740 --> 01:37:44,660
Chas:
Yeah. But that's fascinating to me because it's like the most technical one.

1425
01:37:44,980 --> 01:37:49,800
Stu:
Yeah. But I wonder if that's- maybe they shot it last because it is possibly-

1426
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:52,940
Stu:
yeah, it's interesting. Is it the most technical or is the second- I mean.

1427
01:37:53,020 --> 01:37:56,440
Chas:
Episode two is probably pretty technical and you've got even more. The teenage extras.

1428
01:37:56,680 --> 01:38:01,560
Stu:
But they actually talked about how they had ADs in plain clothes acting as teachers.

1429
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:04,900
Stu:
I mean, maybe that's why they're so heightened. They're just being ADs.

1430
01:38:06,980 --> 01:38:11,300
Stu:
You know, having been yelled at by an AD before.

1431
01:38:12,100 --> 01:38:18,440
Stu:
So, I think, so it wouldn't surprise me. So, it wouldn't surprise me that they

1432
01:38:18,440 --> 01:38:22,740
Stu:
rehearsed the first episodes based off the script, but had to give everyone

1433
01:38:22,740 --> 01:38:25,760
Stu:
action before they worked out where they're putting the camera.

1434
01:38:26,220 --> 01:38:31,700
Stu:
Right. So, that, this is just a guess, but it feels like when they're pointing

1435
01:38:31,700 --> 01:38:36,140
Stu:
the camera at person A, person B is only seen in the background,

1436
01:38:36,480 --> 01:38:39,620
Stu:
but they've got a full life. Right.

1437
01:38:40,700 --> 01:38:43,580
Stu:
And particularly, you can feel it really in the school environment.

1438
01:38:43,740 --> 01:38:45,920
Stu:
These kids are having conversations and stuff like that.

1439
01:38:46,060 --> 01:38:49,780
Stu:
And sometimes when you're directing extras, it's just, they're just talking nonsense. Right.

1440
01:38:50,120 --> 01:38:53,540
Stu:
Or are kind of doing loops. That's something that you can kind of do with extras.

1441
01:38:53,700 --> 01:38:56,620
Stu:
They kind of get these little loops of action. they can

1442
01:38:56,620 --> 01:38:59,720
Stu:
do but because i think of the way this is made they probably

1443
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:03,300
Stu:
actually had to give all the characters dialogue and

1444
01:39:03,300 --> 01:39:06,660
Stu:
like actually objectives within the scene right

1445
01:39:06,660 --> 01:39:09,740
Stu:
and then they kind of could so then they could put the camera wherever they

1446
01:39:09,740 --> 01:39:13,760
Stu:
wanted and then they didn't pull that stuff out maybe you know i you know they

1447
01:39:13,760 --> 01:39:17,520
Stu:
probably had when you finished in this scene you probably had to go and get

1448
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:21,760
Stu:
changed and go to the other location or whatever but it just does feel that

1449
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:24,460
Stu:
a lot of these characters had very clear kind of paths,

1450
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:26,900
Stu:
like almost like a theme park or immersive theater.

1451
01:39:27,140 --> 01:39:31,260
Stu:
Having gone to some immersive theater, this reminded me of that in a way,

1452
01:39:31,540 --> 01:39:33,660
Stu:
except the decision of who to follow.

1453
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:36,460
Stu:
Like there was a play called The Wolf Play. It's kind of like a choose your

1454
01:39:36,460 --> 01:39:40,520
Stu:
own adventure play where you're in a room and you can choose which they believe,

1455
01:39:40,940 --> 01:39:42,180
Stu:
Fred scenes, we'll get back to that.

1456
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:44,740
Stu:
And they will leave and you can choose which path to follow.

1457
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:47,880
Stu:
And then Cameron was making that decision for you.

1458
01:39:48,540 --> 01:39:52,860
Stu:
Now, who knows whether the writers had an appendix with like,

1459
01:39:52,980 --> 01:39:57,640
Stu:
here's dialogue we've written for the kids or, you know, whether that was just

1460
01:39:57,640 --> 01:39:59,280
Stu:
something that they kind of improvised together.

1461
01:39:59,380 --> 01:40:04,860
Stu:
But to me, it still feels like story and writing that they have gone to that level of detail.

1462
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:08,800
Stu:
And that comes to kind of Julian's sound design point, right,

1463
01:40:09,080 --> 01:40:11,880
Stu:
that I think they probably did write this dialogue.

1464
01:40:12,020 --> 01:40:14,940
Stu:
It wasn't just offscreen mumble dialogue. It's like, let's write stuff that

1465
01:40:14,940 --> 01:40:16,780
Stu:
makes sense because we may hear it.

1466
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:21,220
Stu:
You know, it's got a little bit of that kind of Nashville style,

1467
01:40:21,220 --> 01:40:25,460
Stu:
Altman, you know, because Altman wouldn't tell people who he was shooting.

1468
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:29,520
Stu:
That was one of the key, key parts of his styles. He shot everything on zoom

1469
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:32,340
Stu:
long lenses and would get them to act.

1470
01:40:32,420 --> 01:40:36,200
Stu:
And he wouldn't tell which, whose courage, he wouldn't tell the actors whose

1471
01:40:36,200 --> 01:40:38,620
Stu:
coverage he was shooting because he wanted them all to be in the scene.

1472
01:40:38,660 --> 01:40:39,780
Stu:
And this reminded me of that.

1473
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:46,480
Stu:
Which comes to French scenes. So this was a term I picked up from Will Dunn.

1474
01:40:46,620 --> 01:40:50,200
Stu:
He's got two excellent books that friended the podcast.

1475
01:40:51,060 --> 01:40:53,700
Stu:
Frenchie. These Frenchie, they're

1476
01:40:53,700 --> 01:40:57,080
Stu:
not Frenchie scenes, but Frenchie gets credit for the French scenes.

1477
01:40:57,860 --> 01:41:02,060
Stu:
The Will Dunn books, I'll put links in the show notes, excellent exercise-driven

1478
01:41:02,060 --> 01:41:04,360
Stu:
books. They were all just exercises for writers.

1479
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:09,060
Stu:
And so he's got an exercise on French scenes. And I'm going to read the whole thing.

1480
01:41:09,060 --> 01:41:12,040
Stu:
Named after a 17th century french system for

1481
01:41:12,040 --> 01:41:14,980
Stu:
identifying scenes in a dramatic script a french scene is a

1482
01:41:14,980 --> 01:41:17,760
Stu:
unit of dramatic action demarcated by the

1483
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:20,660
Stu:
entrance or exit of a character each time someone

1484
01:41:20,660 --> 01:41:25,200
Stu:
comes or goes a new combination of characters form and a new french scene begins

1485
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:28,960
Stu:
right if there are a number of such comings and going one scene can be made

1486
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:34,220
Stu:
up of several french scenes um french scenes affect the tempo of dramatic action

1487
01:41:34,220 --> 01:41:37,800
Stu:
which may feel fast-paced if they are abundant and slow-paced if they're not.

1488
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:41,180
Stu:
French scenes also reveal key information about relationships,

1489
01:41:41,480 --> 01:41:46,440
Stu:
since they enable us to see how mood and behavior change as characters come or go.

1490
01:41:46,580 --> 01:41:50,600
Stu:
When a new character arrives after a scene has begun, a friendly gathering may

1491
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:53,700
Stu:
turn hostile, and when a character departs before the scene ends,

1492
01:41:54,040 --> 01:41:56,040
Stu:
professional meeting may suddenly turn romantic.

1493
01:41:56,540 --> 01:42:02,560
Stu:
And you can see how that works here. So even the episode three, when Bryony leaves.

1494
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:07,200
Stu:
Jamie's presence after the fight and she has that moment at the coffee machine

1495
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:13,700
Stu:
her she lets her guard down and we see how affected she is by it and so that's

1496
01:42:13,700 --> 01:42:17,860
Stu:
kind of it's not a french scene because we're not saying with jamie but that's

1497
01:42:17,860 --> 01:42:20,020
Stu:
what makes the one kind of interesting right.

1498
01:42:20,020 --> 01:42:20,520
Chas:
Is

1499
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:22,820
Stu:
It's got this combination of we're going to stay in this room.

1500
01:42:22,820 --> 01:42:23,080
Chas:
And have.

1501
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:26,680
Stu:
A character come in and a character leave but also we're going to follow a character

1502
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:30,620
Stu:
like a relay and see where they go and.

1503
01:42:30,620 --> 01:42:33,760
Chas:
Experience the environment differently yeah i mean

1504
01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:37,060
Chas:
there were some of those relays in the first episode where particularly once

1505
01:42:37,060 --> 01:42:40,060
Chas:
they get to the police station that really were one character

1506
01:42:40,060 --> 01:42:43,100
Chas:
walks like across screen and the camera turns away

1507
01:42:43,100 --> 01:42:46,500
Chas:
and we are now following a new character but

1508
01:42:46,500 --> 01:42:49,980
Chas:
they've done so much excellent work in introducing us to who that character

1509
01:42:49,980 --> 01:42:54,100
Chas:
is or what their role is and what their objective is that we're not lost when

1510
01:42:54,100 --> 01:42:59,020
Chas:
we're in that movement and they've got several uh establishing of the geography

1511
01:42:59,020 --> 01:43:03,680
Chas:
scenes early on in the police station as they're walking Jamie in, you know,

1512
01:43:03,780 --> 01:43:07,640
Chas:
which rooms are locked, which ones are not, where they are in relation to the desk,

1513
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:12,260
Chas:
where the detectives are, where the family waiting room is on the other side of that locked door.

1514
01:43:12,780 --> 01:43:16,360
Chas:
So they've done all this work so that...

1515
01:43:16,930 --> 01:43:21,130
Chas:
We are, yes, they're French scenes, arguably. Some of them-

1516
01:43:21,130 --> 01:43:24,730
Stu:
The big French scene example would be the interview at the very end,

1517
01:43:24,930 --> 01:43:28,530
Stu:
where it is the lawyer, Jamie, Eddie, and the two detectives.

1518
01:43:28,690 --> 01:43:35,850
Stu:
They reveal the footage, and then everyone leads except Eddie and Jamie,

1519
01:43:36,050 --> 01:43:38,770
Stu:
and they have a moment together, and that's when you get the emotional event,

1520
01:43:38,770 --> 01:43:43,170
Stu:
because that vulnerability and intimacy between them wouldn't happen with the

1521
01:43:43,170 --> 01:43:44,630
Stu:
others in the room. Yeah.

1522
01:43:45,330 --> 01:43:48,350
Stu:
The kind of handover stuff. Is it a French scene? Is it not?

1523
01:43:48,450 --> 01:43:51,590
Stu:
No, but it's an interesting way of thinking about how to construct scenes.

1524
01:43:51,870 --> 01:43:53,470
Chas:
Well, I think it gives the pace

1525
01:43:53,470 --> 01:43:58,290
Chas:
to it because they're all in this physical location of the police station.

1526
01:43:58,490 --> 01:44:03,210
Chas:
They're not all necessarily in the same room. So, you are moving from location

1527
01:44:03,210 --> 01:44:04,950
Chas:
to location in combination of characters.

1528
01:44:05,110 --> 01:44:09,210
Chas:
But the fact that you are suddenly following a character that you know who has

1529
01:44:09,210 --> 01:44:10,910
Chas:
an objective, you know, it feels like a French scene.

1530
01:44:10,910 --> 01:44:15,770
Chas:
And it increases that pacing and it feels effortless that we are,

1531
01:44:15,830 --> 01:44:19,950
Chas:
while maintaining the immediacy of the one-er, we're suddenly in a new scene

1532
01:44:19,950 --> 01:44:22,390
Chas:
with entirely new characters in an entirely new location.

1533
01:44:22,690 --> 01:44:26,130
Stu:
And I think what is great about, I mean, I call them handovers.

1534
01:44:26,350 --> 01:44:29,510
Stu:
I think that's where I picked it up doing Steadicam stuff.

1535
01:44:30,070 --> 01:44:33,610
Stu:
What's cool about the handover and I think the useful technique for writers

1536
01:44:33,610 --> 01:44:39,870
Stu:
on a micro level is you actually are asking who is the point of view character going into this scene.

1537
01:44:41,110 --> 01:44:45,910
Stu:
Right. And one of the choices that they're having to make with these one is,

1538
01:44:46,070 --> 01:44:48,430
Stu:
is who is the POV character for the scene?

1539
01:44:48,610 --> 01:44:52,190
Stu:
Who is the protagonist of the scene is not necessarily the same as the point of view character.

1540
01:44:52,530 --> 01:44:57,170
Stu:
Right. And I think, you know, you coming full circle to the,

1541
01:44:57,170 --> 01:45:02,010
Stu:
the scene where Jamie is getting strip searched that they have chosen the point

1542
01:45:02,010 --> 01:45:04,550
Stu:
of view character to be Eddie.

1543
01:45:05,130 --> 01:45:10,930
Stu:
Right. I think there could be an interesting shift where the handover gets us

1544
01:45:10,930 --> 01:45:15,510
Stu:
in there with point of view character A, to me character B, but character A leaves.

1545
01:45:15,710 --> 01:45:19,570
Stu:
And that's kind of why it's a French scene. That definitely happens in episode

1546
01:45:19,570 --> 01:45:24,710
Stu:
three when we see Jamie, there's like a guard walks down to Jamie's room and

1547
01:45:24,710 --> 01:45:27,630
Stu:
then we see Jamie and then the guard leaves and we're just with Jamie.

1548
01:45:27,850 --> 01:45:32,230
Stu:
And it's just a way to get us to Jamie. But that is kind of like a French scene

1549
01:45:32,230 --> 01:45:36,710
Stu:
in a way, I think, in the way that you're kind of talking about, right?

1550
01:45:37,350 --> 01:45:41,710
Chas:
Yeah. Well, what I'm talking about is how have they solved a pacing problem

1551
01:45:41,710 --> 01:45:49,690
Chas:
with a oner with moving from one scene to the next if they don't want necessarily

1552
01:45:49,690 --> 01:45:53,870
Chas:
a character from the previous scene or all the characters from a previous scene in the next scene.

1553
01:45:53,870 --> 01:45:57,950
Chas:
And they've done it through establishing of geography, establishing of characters,

1554
01:45:57,970 --> 01:46:02,030
Chas:
and then incredibly well-timed, well-rehearsed handovers.

1555
01:46:02,430 --> 01:46:03,330
Stu:
Yeah, yeah.

1556
01:46:03,730 --> 01:46:10,230
Chas:
But, I mean, one of the most enjoyable Draft Zero episodes we've ever done was

1557
01:46:10,230 --> 01:46:14,990
Chas:
actually one we did looking at pilots and talking about the difference between

1558
01:46:14,990 --> 01:46:19,570
Chas:
literary and dramatic techniques.

1559
01:46:19,570 --> 01:46:24,330
Chas:
And the wanna is a literary,

1560
01:46:25,380 --> 01:46:30,440
Chas:
technique right the the characters in the in the show don't know that they're

1561
01:46:30,440 --> 01:46:34,240
Chas:
in they're being revealed to an audience in a wanna right but.

1562
01:46:34,240 --> 01:46:38,500
Stu:
I actually think in a way it's a dramatic technique because the character's

1563
01:46:38,500 --> 01:46:41,740
Stu:
experience of a scene should be in real time.

1564
01:46:41,740 --> 01:46:45,180
Chas:
Unedited it's it's it's aligning us but they

1565
01:46:45,180 --> 01:46:48,060
Chas:
are not this is i think this is you know going

1566
01:46:48,060 --> 01:46:50,860
Chas:
back to julian's question both on sound design and on how

1567
01:46:50,860 --> 01:46:54,860
Chas:
do they stop the character becoming a protagonist is they

1568
01:46:54,860 --> 01:46:57,900
Chas:
haven't relinquished dramatic tools like

1569
01:46:57,900 --> 01:47:01,260
Chas:
this is not no feeling like cinema verite where

1570
01:47:01,260 --> 01:47:05,160
Chas:
it's trying to be like a documentary it doesn't feel altman-esque

1571
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:08,080
Chas:
right we're very clear on who the camera

1572
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:11,620
Chas:
is supposed to be on when it's all very precise

1573
01:47:11,620 --> 01:47:14,360
Chas:
and you felt that more than

1574
01:47:14,360 --> 01:47:18,920
Chas:
i did in the in you know sort of aesthetically in coverage reasons but then

1575
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:24,540
Chas:
there are moments you know the drone shot And there's sound design moments where

1576
01:47:24,540 --> 01:47:28,340
Chas:
you've talked about they would have been really conscious of making sure that

1577
01:47:28,340 --> 01:47:34,180
Chas:
they're capturing a whole lot of real in-world sound design.

1578
01:47:34,180 --> 01:47:40,940
Chas:
But I was interested at the moments where they put us into the perspective of

1579
01:47:40,940 --> 01:47:44,140
Chas:
one of the characters, particularly Eddie when he was really upset in the hardware

1580
01:47:44,140 --> 01:47:45,980
Chas:
store, everything becomes muffled.

1581
01:47:55,020 --> 01:47:58,360
Chas:
And it's just putting us in his it's it's

1582
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:03,060
Chas:
it's they're still using dramatic techniques

1583
01:48:03,060 --> 01:48:08,600
Chas:
over narrative ones they're not forgetting ever that this is a show i mean the

1584
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:13,200
Chas:
the only point in the whole four episodes where i actually got annoyed at the

1585
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:20,180
Chas:
camera work was the opening of episode four where it opens in the shed,

1586
01:48:21,240 --> 01:48:28,600
Chas:
and Eddie opens the shed and then the camera seemingly goes through a wall as it leaves with Eddie.

1587
01:48:28,940 --> 01:48:34,980
Chas:
And it was drawing my attention to the camera work in a way that I didn't feel was serving the story.

1588
01:48:35,140 --> 01:48:38,400
Stu:
Coming back, because while you've been talking, I haven't been paying attention,

1589
01:48:38,460 --> 01:48:39,720
Stu:
I've just been watching the scene.

1590
01:48:40,860 --> 01:48:43,960
Stu:
And this is a good example. So it is the midpoint. The strip search is kind

1591
01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:47,300
Stu:
of the midpoint. So, we're, and you're seeing with the lawyers,

1592
01:48:47,460 --> 01:48:51,720
Stu:
the lawyer and the detectives, right? So, Jamie's lawyer and the two detectives.

1593
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:57,820
Stu:
The detectives leave and they're kind of talking with each other, right? And then a...

1594
01:48:58,460 --> 01:49:02,300
Stu:
The officer, the plainclothes officer, which had taken Jamie's,

1595
01:49:02,480 --> 01:49:06,140
Stu:
had kind of done the record keeping with Jamie, the admin, right,

1596
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:11,760
Stu:
basically walks past frame, walks to Eddie, and then does a.

1597
01:49:12,340 --> 01:49:18,540
Stu:
Escorts Eddie to the room with the nurse, right? And then Jamie comes in.

1598
01:49:18,700 --> 01:49:21,780
Stu:
And, yeah, I mean, it just kind of, I just looked at him and went,

1599
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:25,280
Stu:
yeah, my feeling was that they made the decision to have the point of view,

1600
01:49:25,420 --> 01:49:26,720
Stu:
and then the guard leaves.

1601
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:29,520
Stu:
So the point of view character of that scene

1602
01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:32,980
Stu:
of jamie being strip searched is eddie and they have made that decision and

1603
01:49:32,980 --> 01:49:36,380
Stu:
they've worked backwards in terms of how to make that it um i

1604
01:49:36,380 --> 01:49:39,560
Stu:
mean it makes sense for an admin that the admin cop goes and

1605
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:42,900
Stu:
gets eddie and walks into where he needs to be but

1606
01:49:42,900 --> 01:49:45,520
Stu:
it kind of does the connective tissue and i think it would be

1607
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:50,340
Stu:
an interesting exercise for your scripts like i'm looking at it now going huh

1608
01:49:50,340 --> 01:49:54,540
Stu:
i can there's some scenes where i would be interested in writing the connective

1609
01:49:54,540 --> 01:49:59,540
Stu:
tissue even if i know we're going to cut it just so I understand who it is that

1610
01:49:59,540 --> 01:50:03,020
Stu:
is the point of view character, how are we getting in there?

1611
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:06,760
Stu:
It's kind of like an interesting exercise and it's the kind of like off-script

1612
01:50:06,760 --> 01:50:10,140
Stu:
improvisation that you could do, right, as well.

1613
01:50:10,260 --> 01:50:12,800
Stu:
Like from a directorial technique, we're coming into this scene,

1614
01:50:12,800 --> 01:50:15,140
Stu:
we've actually cut out the connective tissue, right?

1615
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:19,400
Stu:
So there's a version of this where they don't see Eddie being escorted in and

1616
01:50:19,400 --> 01:50:25,140
Stu:
they just cut to him being there, But there is something in him being led there,

1617
01:50:25,320 --> 01:50:30,180
Stu:
led into the back room that kind of does stuff for his mentality and him being

1618
01:50:30,180 --> 01:50:33,140
Stu:
confronted with the room and the nurse and all that kind of stuff that you could

1619
01:50:33,140 --> 01:50:36,880
Stu:
kind of work in either improvisationally or just write in order to cut.

1620
01:50:37,300 --> 01:50:38,200
Chas:
Are we at the end?

1621
01:50:38,860 --> 01:50:43,340
Chas:
Have we got any other micro techniques you want to draw out?

1622
01:50:43,460 --> 01:50:44,300
Stu:
In the absence of.

1623
01:50:44,300 --> 01:50:46,500
Chas:
Us- In the absence of us actually having the scripts.

1624
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:51,860
Stu:
The POV question of the scene, like who is the point of view character of the

1625
01:50:51,860 --> 01:50:57,840
Stu:
scene, actually helps inform the dramatic question of the scenes, right?

1626
01:50:58,040 --> 01:51:01,600
Stu:
And in this case, they're very clear because it is what is the impact of these.

1627
01:51:01,600 --> 01:51:06,700
Stu:
Like, if an underlining or running question of this show is what is the impact

1628
01:51:06,700 --> 01:51:12,480
Stu:
of these events and these people, then having Eddie being the one that watches

1629
01:51:12,480 --> 01:51:15,000
Stu:
Jamie makes sense, right?

1630
01:51:15,080 --> 01:51:19,060
Stu:
Because this scene is about what is the impact of this scene on the character.

1631
01:51:19,180 --> 01:51:23,300
Stu:
And I actually think you can ask yourself that question of every scene,

1632
01:51:23,300 --> 01:51:26,780
Stu:
what character is most impacted by the events of this scene,

1633
01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:29,960
Stu:
right? And then that becomes your point of view character.

1634
01:51:30,140 --> 01:51:31,120
Chas:
Right?

1635
01:51:31,120 --> 01:51:36,660
Stu:
And then, you know, there is a version of that where, well, what if we just hang on their face?

1636
01:51:37,340 --> 01:51:42,520
Stu:
Right? But I think that is a really interesting reverse way of thinking about

1637
01:51:42,520 --> 01:51:44,080
Stu:
it, using a tool for melodrama.

1638
01:51:44,480 --> 01:51:46,620
Stu:
You know, I'm just thinking about it in terms of our work and going,

1639
01:51:46,780 --> 01:51:51,480
Stu:
you know, what is the impact of this event on this character? Right?

1640
01:51:51,480 --> 01:51:59,420
Chas:
I think back to most recent script and there was a character beat that repeatedly,

1641
01:51:59,760 --> 01:52:02,980
Chas:
we understood it, but a lot of people reading the work were like,

1642
01:52:03,100 --> 01:52:08,280
Chas:
I just can't quite get across with this character beat, a decision that they

1643
01:52:08,280 --> 01:52:11,800
Chas:
make or a response that they make to a very heightened situation.

1644
01:52:11,800 --> 01:52:17,840
Chas:
And what we ended up the the solve actually was to spend time with the character

1645
01:52:17,840 --> 01:52:20,600
Chas:
sitting emotionally in their experience.

1646
01:52:20,600 --> 01:52:24,600
Stu:
Potentially as a wanna yeah i think

1647
01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:27,940
Stu:
we kind of came up with it after doing our own episode right where we're like

1648
01:52:27,940 --> 01:52:32,700
Stu:
oh what if this is the uh what if this is the solve literally spend real time

1649
01:52:32,700 --> 01:52:39,540
Stu:
with them and play around with the audio and and all that kind of stuff um yeah

1650
01:52:39,540 --> 01:52:43,480
Stu:
i mean because that is a scene about the impact of that event on that character well.

1651
01:52:43,480 --> 01:52:46,620
Chas:
I mean i would say that's not what the scene is about but we had to answer that

1652
01:52:46,620 --> 01:52:48,560
Chas:
question so that people would go along with.

1653
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:49,600
Stu:
You know what.

1654
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:51,080
Chas:
What happens next.

1655
01:52:51,080 --> 01:52:52,420
Stu:
Yeah we.

1656
01:52:52,420 --> 01:52:56,600
Chas:
Ended up using a character question to resolve a plot issue.

1657
01:52:56,600 --> 01:53:01,840
Stu:
I guess we're already kind of now into learnings i think the The incomplete

1658
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:05,940
Stu:
thing is definitely a really good learning that kind of restricting your point

1659
01:53:05,940 --> 01:53:10,220
Stu:
of view does mean that it can leave some things incomplete.

1660
01:53:10,220 --> 01:53:14,580
Stu:
And the success of this show has shown you, has shown that, you know,

1661
01:53:14,620 --> 01:53:15,720
Stu:
not everything needs an answer.

1662
01:53:15,840 --> 01:53:18,500
Stu:
And in fact, if you want people to talk about it, maybe it being,

1663
01:53:18,660 --> 01:53:23,080
Stu:
there being space for questions from the audience is really useful.

1664
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:29,560
Stu:
But I do think an aspect of the incompleteness is that there are these characters that you meet,

1665
01:53:30,020 --> 01:53:34,140
Stu:
for one episode that you feel like you go on a journey with.

1666
01:53:34,360 --> 01:53:38,780
Stu:
So I feel like you're getting, you're kind of seeing a little bit of Jade's life.

1667
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:39,220
Chas:
Right?

1668
01:53:39,300 --> 01:53:43,420
Stu:
She's a character which has given, you know, kind of become- we come back to her, right?

1669
01:53:43,480 --> 01:53:46,820
Stu:
So we see her in being interviewed by the cops, she leaves, but then we come

1670
01:53:46,820 --> 01:53:50,160
Stu:
back with her, learn about her relationship with the victim,

1671
01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:55,260
Stu:
um, Katie, and- and then we kind of leave with her at the end, right?

1672
01:53:55,340 --> 01:53:59,160
Stu:
Which I think is a powerful choice that they come back to her and make her part

1673
01:53:59,160 --> 01:54:04,900
Stu:
of the wrap-up of the story in the way that when the detective and Adam connect,

1674
01:54:05,180 --> 01:54:10,680
Stu:
we see her kind of being visibly ostracized and affected, and we just leave her there.

1675
01:54:10,820 --> 01:54:10,920
Chas:
Yeah.

1676
01:54:11,000 --> 01:54:15,220
Stu:
But same with Bryony, right? Like, we never come back to that character.

1677
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:15,660
Chas:
Yeah.

1678
01:54:15,880 --> 01:54:20,780
Stu:
Right? And it's kind of like, it is incomplete. I like that word.

1679
01:54:20,880 --> 01:54:21,120
Chas:
Mm-hmm.

1680
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:23,880
Stu:
Allowing things to be incomplete, because it's not saying it's,

1681
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:28,800
Stu:
hmm, unresolved is not the right word. It's like you've built some of the road

1682
01:54:28,800 --> 01:54:31,180
Stu:
there, but you don't have to kind of come to a conclusion.

1683
01:54:31,420 --> 01:54:37,600
Chas:
Yeah, I think it's coming back to me to the power of what questions like it's clear.

1684
01:54:37,820 --> 01:54:43,020
Chas:
What makes this so successful on a writing level for me is hopefully this episode

1685
01:54:43,020 --> 01:54:48,760
Chas:
has made it clear that the writers on a macro and a micro level are so in control

1686
01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:52,420
Chas:
of the questions they want their audience to be asking at any given time.

1687
01:54:52,840 --> 01:54:56,780
Chas:
Do they want them to be asking plot questions? Do they want them to be asking

1688
01:54:56,780 --> 01:54:59,740
Chas:
character questions? Do they want them to be asking thematic questions?

1689
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:08,020
Chas:
And they've put in the massive amounts of work such that the stuff that feels...

1690
01:55:08,020 --> 01:55:12,960
Chas:
I don't actually think the 101, it's powerful and it's pulled off really well.

1691
01:55:13,060 --> 01:55:17,960
Chas:
I don't think that's the marvel of this show. I think it's a tool that is in

1692
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:21,100
Chas:
service of what is incredibly...

1693
01:55:22,300 --> 01:55:25,060
Chas:
Well executed in this show which is how it's pulled

1694
01:55:25,060 --> 01:55:29,840
Chas:
off unity in time and and what it's what that has allowed them to do in relation

1695
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:35,880
Chas:
to characters but i'm gonna i think forever be using this as well episode one

1696
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:42,100
Chas:
of this is a crime police procedural where actually none of the characters are

1697
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:43,800
Chas:
trying to figure out who done it.

1698
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:46,440
Stu:
What are you gonna be using that for you're gonna be constantly.

1699
01:55:46,440 --> 01:55:50,920
Chas:
I don't know just just when people start talking about like oh why are people

1700
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:55,820
Chas:
not more active what are they trying to do and like you know it's more about i.

1701
01:55:55,820 --> 01:55:59,160
Stu:
Mean i mean we just mentioned it the many times because it's obviously a very

1702
01:55:59,160 --> 01:56:01,200
Stu:
powerful same scene eddie watching his son.

1703
01:56:01,200 --> 01:56:01,640
Chas:
Being strapped.

1704
01:56:01,640 --> 01:56:08,500
Stu:
To it eddie what can eddie do what is the plot of that scene i mean i guess are they going to find.

1705
01:56:08,500 --> 01:56:10,140
Chas:
Evidence is the plot question.

1706
01:56:10,140 --> 01:56:12,480
Stu:
Right but it's not told from the.

1707
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:13,080
Chas:
Detective's point.

1708
01:56:13,080 --> 01:56:15,320
Stu:
Of view it is not told from jamie's.

1709
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:15,640
Chas:
Point of.

1710
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:18,480
Stu:
View the two people that are actually immediately affected.

1711
01:56:18,480 --> 01:56:19,520
Chas:
By the.

1712
01:56:19,720 --> 01:56:26,100
Stu:
You know, who asked the question and plot and then it's actually played on, on, on Eddie.

1713
01:56:26,500 --> 01:56:31,980
Stu:
Right. So I think it, it kind of hopefully empowers people to do kind of a storytelling

1714
01:56:31,980 --> 01:56:35,600
Stu:
that isn't, uh, and I love plot driven stuff, but.

1715
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:36,220
Chas:
Yeah.

1716
01:56:36,780 --> 01:56:42,140
Stu:
You know, I loved Jack Reacher season three, smashed it like fucking three episodes

1717
01:56:42,140 --> 01:56:47,340
Stu:
a night up way too late, got through it, but I'm not talking about it in the

1718
01:56:47,340 --> 01:56:49,820
Stu:
same, I'm not like, We got to do an episode. Right.

1719
01:56:50,360 --> 01:56:55,660
Stu:
And, and as much as I love the writing in that, it ain't, it ain't doing what this is doing.

1720
01:56:55,920 --> 01:57:01,860
Chas:
So I, I think, I think this just gives me a language and an example to talk about.

1721
01:57:03,110 --> 01:57:13,290
Chas:
How you can be in an almost plot absent scene and even episode, but have it feel tense.

1722
01:57:14,030 --> 01:57:17,110
Chas:
The absence of plot does not mean the absence of tension.

1723
01:57:17,990 --> 01:57:23,010
Stu:
That's something we should explore further. Because we've talked about tension being point of view.

1724
01:57:23,270 --> 01:57:26,710
Stu:
So point of view driven, and this is tension that is, I mean,

1725
01:57:26,810 --> 01:57:28,350
Stu:
it's about from restricted point of view.

1726
01:57:28,590 --> 01:57:31,910
Chas:
But they're not shifting narrative point of view a lot.

1727
01:57:32,670 --> 01:57:37,810
Stu:
No. And in fact, they're doing the very melodramatic thing of staying very inside

1728
01:57:37,810 --> 01:57:39,390
Stu:
a very tight point of view.

1729
01:57:40,170 --> 01:57:45,210
Stu:
Yes. My last observation is I, you know, the kind of, when I realized that every

1730
01:57:45,210 --> 01:57:49,810
Stu:
episode had an emotional event, I went, we looked at that at a scene level, right?

1731
01:57:50,110 --> 01:57:53,590
Stu:
But, you know, it's kind of interesting to think about it on a macro level.

1732
01:57:53,890 --> 01:58:01,270
Stu:
Emotional event of an episode, emotional event of an act or a sequence and of the whole show, right?

1733
01:58:01,270 --> 01:58:04,910
Stu:
I think is something we, it's probably actually worth coming back to in the

1734
01:58:04,910 --> 01:58:09,250
Stu:
same way that we took sequence questions and then looked at them on a scene level.

1735
01:58:10,230 --> 01:58:14,950
Stu:
Right. It's kind of might be interesting to do emotional events the other way

1736
01:58:14,950 --> 01:58:19,050
Stu:
and kind of look at large, using emotional events as a larger structuring tool.

1737
01:58:19,330 --> 01:58:20,970
Chas:
I mean, I would love to dig in

1738
01:58:20,970 --> 01:58:25,650
Chas:
more to emotional events. That was a really eye-opening and great episode.

1739
01:58:25,890 --> 01:58:26,170
Stu:
Cool.

1740
01:58:26,590 --> 01:58:26,870
Chas:
But yeah.

1741
01:58:27,090 --> 01:58:27,510
Stu:
I'm back.

1742
01:58:27,630 --> 01:58:31,350
Chas:
Thank you, Stu, for making this happen. he's

1743
01:58:31,350 --> 01:58:34,690
Chas:
back and thank you again to

1744
01:58:34,690 --> 01:58:38,030
Chas:
our amazing patrons who bring you more draft zero and more often and i

1745
01:58:38,030 --> 01:58:43,630
Chas:
know that's like a sort of trite line that i chop out but honestly like if it

1746
01:58:43,630 --> 01:58:50,830
Chas:
wasn't for these guys supporting us we would not get through the vague goal

1747
01:58:50,830 --> 01:58:55,490
Chas:
of 10 episodes a year uh it really does inspire us and keep us going do.

1748
01:58:55,490 --> 01:58:56,370
Stu:
People really want,

1749
01:58:57,080 --> 01:59:02,320
Stu:
Do people want 10? Maybe it's a negative sell. People don't want 10 episodes.

1750
01:59:02,540 --> 01:59:07,160
Stu:
They're like, man, just give me a limited season of four episodes.

1751
01:59:07,200 --> 01:59:12,960
Chas:
But if you want to help us choose our topics and our homework and throw questions

1752
01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:16,420
Chas:
and observations at us, yeah, please do join.

1753
01:59:16,620 --> 01:59:21,340
Chas:
And thanks to our extra special patrons, Alexandra, Jen, Jesse,

1754
01:59:21,980 --> 01:59:28,700
Chas:
Krob, Lily, Malay, Paolo, Randy, Sandra, Thees, and Thomas.

1755
01:59:29,240 --> 01:59:31,380
Stu:
Was Crob on that list? Is he doing anything?

1756
01:59:31,500 --> 01:59:35,720
Chas:
Well done, Crob, for finishing principal photography on your debut feature film.

1757
01:59:35,860 --> 01:59:39,660
FX:
I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on

1758
01:59:39,660 --> 01:59:41,280
FX:
this episode or anything in general.

1759
01:59:41,400 --> 01:59:48,080
FX:
And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com.

1760
01:59:48,300 --> 01:59:52,460
FX:
At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes,

1761
01:59:52,460 --> 01:59:57,940
FX:
as well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and

1762
01:59:57,940 --> 02:00:00,980
FX:
review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word.

1763
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:06,060
FX:
Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than

1764
02:00:06,060 --> 02:00:11,780
FX:
a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting

1765
02:00:11,780 --> 02:00:13,640
FX:
these episodes to you quicker.

1766
02:00:14,180 --> 02:00:16,880
FX:
Thanks. And thanks for listening.