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Welcome to the Urban Forestry
Radio Show brought to you by

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the Community Orchard Network.

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In this monthly radio show and podcast,
I'm going to take you on a journey.

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We'll learn about fruit
trees, permaculture, food

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forests, and so much more.

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So if you're a gardener and enjoy growing
your own food, if you love trees and

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especially fruit trees, Or if you're just
interested in living a more sustainable

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life, you've come to the right place.

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I'm Susan Poizner, your host for today.

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So get ready, roll up your sleeves,
and let's dig in to today's episode.

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Hello and welcome to the Urban

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Forestry Radio Show with your host

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Susan Poizner.

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Right here on Reality Radio 101.

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To contact Susan live right
now, send her an email.

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In Studio 101.

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And now,

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right to your host of the Urban
Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.

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Hi everyone, and welcome
to the show today.

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You know, when you're growing
fruit trees, harvest time is the

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most exciting time of the year.

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There is nothing like organic
fruit picked fresh from the tree.

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But what could be more disappointing than
harvesting the fruit, only to discover

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that someone else got there first?

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Now I'm not talking about human bandits.

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I'm talking about insect pests.

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Those little bugs and moths that
nibble on our tree's leaves and

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fruit and lay eggs under the skin.

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Now, fresh organic fruit just
doesn't taste quite as good.

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When there's a worm or
a maggot hidden inside.

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Now in the Ben Nobleman Park
Community Orchard in Toronto our

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approach is to use orchard socks.

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Orchard socks are nylon sockettes that
we slip onto the baby fruit and just when

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the fruit is no larger than a nickel.

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As the fruit grows the sock expands.

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All the while protecting that little
fruitlet from insect infestation.

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Now that approach works if you
have maybe ten fruit trees, or one

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fruit tree, or twenty fruit trees.

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But if you have a thousand
trees, tying on orchard socks

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will be quite time consuming.

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So you may consider investigating
other non chemical approaches.

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Today, we'll talk about some of those
approaches with my first guest, Dr.

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Gary Judd, an entomologist who has spent
a lot of time studying the sex lives of

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insect pests and learning how to use this
information to protect our fruit trees.

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Then later in the show...

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Is there a wrong way
to water a fruit tree?

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The answer, believe it or not, is yes.

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In the second half of the program
today, I'll talk to Chuck Engels, a

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fruit tree expert from Sacramento,
California, about the do's and don'ts.

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of fruit tree watering.

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And I think we'll all be pretty surprised
at how little we know about this

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seemingly simple fruit tree care task.

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But first, the secret sex lives
of the fruit tree insect pests.

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Now on the line I have Dr.

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Gary Judd, an entomologist from
British Columbia's Summerland

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Research and Development Center.

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Dr.

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Judd, welcome to the show.

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Yes,

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good afternoon.

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Thank you for having

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me.

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Mm hmm.

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It's a pleasure.

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Can you tell me a little
bit about your work?

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What is it that you do?

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Well, as you introduced
me, I am an entomologist.

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And my specialty is in chemical ecology.

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And specifically in that, I examine
the mating cycles of insects and

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the chemical communication signals
that they use to find each other.

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And those signals, they come
from plants that attract insects.

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So, chemical ecology is what I

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am.

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Hmm, well let's start from the beginning.

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Pests, what kind of damage can
they do to our fruit trees?

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Well, in True Fruits, we normally
classify pests into two types, generally.

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Direct pests and indirect pests.

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Now, an example of a direct
pest would be codling moth.

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And direct because the caterpillar
feeds its way into the centre

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of the apple and destroys it.

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Or in southern Ontario, Toronto
area, you might have a pest like

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apple maggot and the maggot...

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crawls its way to the center.

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And then we have pests that are indirect.

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These could be things like
leaf rollers that feed on the

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leaves and surface of the fruit.

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So the oblique banded leaf roller would
be an example of an indirect pest.

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So, okay, so we've got these kinds of
pests, and they are ruining the harvest.

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So what exactly was the typical, maybe a
more, can I say, old fashioned approach

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to preventing pest damage on fruit trees?

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Well, ever since, since introduce
Used apples, uh, came to Canada a

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hundred years ago in the Okanagan.

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Um, we've been controlling insects
primarily with some sort of toxic spray.

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And some spray that would either kill
the eggs or the young caterpillars

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before they entered or fed on the fruit.

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And that's the classical way that we've
controlled insects for a hundred years.

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And, and what's the downside of that?

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I mean, if it works, it works.

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Well, it

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works.

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Yes, it works.

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But, um, those toxins have indirect
effects on a lot of other organisms

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in the orchard environment.

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They cause a number of secondary problems
by, by killing beneficial insects that

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help us control those indirect pests.

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And generally they, um, they're just
not good to consume in large quantities.

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You have grower and worker exposure to
these toxic materials as they apply them.

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So, um, You know, environmental
consciousness is given us a reason to

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believe these chemicals are just better
off not having them in the environment.

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So if we can find
alternatives, that's, that's

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our aim.

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So, okay, a different approach
of actually looking at the

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mating habits of these pests.

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What's the history of that?

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Um, you know, when did
people start to consider?

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Well, maybe there's a
different way to do this.

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Well, the first pheromones, uh, the sex
pheromones for insects were discovered,

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um, in, in about 1970 in the case of
the codling moth, and so, um, we've

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been considering, uh, this use of
these, these chemical signals, these

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sex pheromones, for at least, uh, a
better part of 40 to 50 years now.

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Okay, and what, what were they trying to
do at that time, in those early years?

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Originally, the first, uh, the
first sex pheromones that were

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identified, these, um, let's take,
for example, the codling moth.

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They're shown to attract the male
codling moth in very large numbers, in

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very small amounts of these chemicals.

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I mean, uh, hundreds or thousands
of a gram is all you need.

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And they attract lots of males, and
so we put them in traps, and our

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intention was to try and trap the males.

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And we thought, naively, that
we might be able to control the

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insect populations by reme...

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Removing the male insects, so male
removal was sort of, or mass trapping

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of males was our target of using

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these pheromones.

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Well, that makes a lot
of sense, doesn't it?

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If the males are dead, then the
females have nobody to mate with

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and your fruit trees are protected.

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Yes, that,

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that was the supposition and that was the
hypothesis we were trying to test, but

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as we stood, studied the insects and we
realized that a male insect might mate

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with several females, um, it takes a very
few males to mate with a large number

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of females to cause damage to your crop.

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So it's very difficult to control
100% of the males and remove them

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before they mate with a female.

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So that approach was somewhat naive
and really hasn't been that effective.

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Hmm.

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So, uh, what happened next?

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I mean, I know that if anybody
has, uh, you know, gone to a Yupik

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orchard and wandered around, you
do see these pheromone traps.

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Are they the yellow sticky paper?

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Is that what the pheromone, or what
do the pheromone traps look like?

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Entomologists have employed
lots of different traps.

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Some of them are based on chemicals
like sex pheromones, these signals,

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and others might be based on color.

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So you might have a yellow trap
that attracts certain flies like

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apple maggot or cherry fruit fly.

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So entomologists have tried a variety of
different traps, but let's specifically

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talk about the sex pheromone traps.

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Now the original, one of the most
consistent uses of them, and you

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still see it and it's still used to
a large extent, is to tell the grower

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Uh, that the insect is active in his
orchard, when they're there, what

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numbers, and where they might be.

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If you have, if you could well imagine,
if you had a hundred acre orchard, the

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insects are not necessarily everywhere.

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So the traps could tell you what
part of the orchard they were in,

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and when they were most abundant.

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And so that knowledge of the
seasonal life cycle, the ups

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and downs of the population.

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gives growers a good idea of when
they might spray their insecticide.

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So, if they had to use insecticide,
they could use much less, and it

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would be properly timed and properly

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targeted.

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Hmm.

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So, in fact, if they only have the pests
in one part of the orchard, they may

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not need to spray the other part of the

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orchard.

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That's exactly right.

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And that those are the kinds of techniques
we call are generally called integrated

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pest management techniques, and they
became very popular after Rachel Carson's

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book Silent Spring and into the early
seventies, we started to develop these

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IPM techniques, and they still are being
developed and refined consistently.

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And is there evidence that they work?

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Well, there's very good
evidence that they work.

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We have minimized the use of pesticides
and allowed greater protection of

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crops with far less insecticides than
we were using 25, 30, 40 years ago.

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But we as entomologists want to keep
pushing the boundaries and so we've

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tried to use non chemical approaches to
remove all chemicals from the orchard.

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And we've been somewhat successful with
that in British Columbia in particular.

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So tell me a little bit about
where, where you went from there.

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You weren't happy with just this idea
of putting out the pheromone traps

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and, uh, in order to discover where
the pests are and then spray them.

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Uh, where did you take it from there?

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What, what year was this?

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Yeah, the, um, well, my career started
in tree fruits, uh, in, in 1989 here at

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Summerland after moving from southern
Ontario, um, and That was the time,

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um, we were starting to investigate
the possibility that we could use

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these sex pheromones not to trap the
males, but to simply confuse the males.

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Okay, and so I'll give
you a little descriptor.

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Um, we can synthesize the natural
pheromone in the laboratory.

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That synthetic pheromone then can be put
in a small device that can be hung in

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the tree and it can release sex pheromone
over the course of an entire season.

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And if you have one of those, it
works quite well to attract...

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The insects to that one lure, but if you
put a hundred of these or several hundred

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of these lures throughout the orchard,
what it does is it creates a fog is the

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best way to try and describe it to the
average person is we create this fog of

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pheromone throughout the orchard canopy.

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That then confuses the male moth, so they
don't know where to search for the female.

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So the, the natural signal becomes
camouflaged, if you like, and the

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synthetic signal is very prominent.

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They respond to that, and that, that
camouflaging effect or confusion effect

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is something we collectively call mating.

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disruption.

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I have this image of the male insects
flying around back and forth looking,

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you know, going towards, I guess it's
the smell or is it a smell based thing?

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They're going towards the smell and
it's like, Hey, where are the girls?

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I can't find any girls around here.

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And then they fly somewhere else.

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So is that it?

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They're just flying back and
forth wasting their time.

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That's

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precisely how the mechanism starts,
and again, in our early days,

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we thought that they would just
fly themselves to exhaustion.

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But you're right, we create
this synthetic female.

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It is a chemical signal.

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It's a signal they detect with
their noses, which is really

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their antenna on their head.

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And they smell the signal, and
then they follow it to its source.

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But as you can well imagine, after
doing that several times during a

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single night, the male becomes fatigued.

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And he does eventually become what we
in sensory physiology call habituation.

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So he becomes habituated to the
signal, and so he no longer smells the

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signal, not even the natural signal.

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And at that point, he would become
sedentary and stop flying and

233
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:22,269
simply sit on the leaves or branches
of a tree and become inactive.

234
00:13:22,449 --> 00:13:23,349
So he just gives up.

235
00:13:24,189 --> 00:13:25,330
He simply gives up.

236
00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:28,170
He will then probably
start the next night again.

237
00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:29,410
The process will start again.

238
00:13:29,810 --> 00:13:33,999
But, um, we also know that if the
female doesn't mate within the first

239
00:13:34,060 --> 00:13:40,239
48 to 72 hours of her emergence, her
ability to lay eggs actually decreases.

240
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,649
So, even if he eventually finds a
female, if it takes him two or three

241
00:13:43,649 --> 00:13:47,540
days, and she's been waiting two or
three days, She is going to lay far

242
00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:50,880
fewer eggs than she would normally, and
so there'd be far fewer caterpillars.

243
00:13:51,220 --> 00:13:55,170
So we get this dual pronged approach
of reducing mating and then actually

244
00:13:55,170 --> 00:13:58,140
reducing egg laying in those that
might actually escape our system.

245
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,070
Okay, so while the guy pests
are flying around getting

246
00:14:01,070 --> 00:14:03,050
confused, where are the females?

247
00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:06,429
Like, have you managed to, I don't
know, put them somewhere all by

248
00:14:06,829 --> 00:14:06,959
themselves?

249
00:14:06,989 --> 00:14:10,740
Yeah, well, we have done many
studies, um, to, we've released

250
00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:12,220
insects and studied where they are.

251
00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:14,350
We've gone into orchards
and collected insects.

252
00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:15,500
So we, we have...

253
00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:21,580
We understand where the female actually
resides when she is, when she is naturally

254
00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:25,610
emitting her pheromone, something we
call, uh, the term calling behavior.

255
00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:29,410
When she's calling the male with her
pheromone, most insects, especially

256
00:14:29,410 --> 00:14:32,650
codling moth, will climb to the tops
of the trees or fly to the tops of

257
00:14:32,650 --> 00:14:33,980
the trees and sit there and wait.

258
00:14:34,499 --> 00:14:35,849
But she won't chase the male.

259
00:14:35,889 --> 00:14:39,310
She sits and waits and she calls and
leaves her signal and she won't go

260
00:14:39,310 --> 00:14:40,730
in search of him if she doesn't mate.

261
00:14:40,740 --> 00:14:42,410
She just, she's persistent.

262
00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:47,120
Um, and so the males and
females don't find each other.

263
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:48,690
It's not like she goes in search of them.

264
00:14:49,150 --> 00:14:49,430
Hmm.

265
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,770
Uh, just, what, what does
the pheromone lure look like?

266
00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:57,469
Again, I have an image of, you know
how in public washrooms they have these

267
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,430
things that automatically exude a smell
so that it doesn't smell bad in there.

268
00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:02,234
Is that what it is?

269
00:15:02,925 --> 00:15:06,565
Well, as you can well imagine,
entomologists are quite innovative,

270
00:15:06,595 --> 00:15:13,275
and in this area, there's one
different lure for every entomologist.

271
00:15:13,275 --> 00:15:16,225
It's kind of like everybody
wants to create a new mousetrap.

272
00:15:16,225 --> 00:15:21,220
So, for example, the average lure,
That releases pheromone in a trap that

273
00:15:21,220 --> 00:15:24,970
you might see hanging in an orchard
is, uh, usually just a little rubber,

274
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,170
piece of rubber, a little, what we
call a rubber septum, that they use to

275
00:15:28,170 --> 00:15:31,320
close bottles off, and, and so it's a
piece of rubber that you, you put the

276
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,989
pheromone in, but it could be a plastic
device that might be several inches long

277
00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:37,039
and a hollow tube sealed at each end.

278
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,200
So, the lures can be all sorts of
types, much science has gone into.

279
00:15:41,510 --> 00:15:45,290
developing these and finding, making
them inexpensive, making them robust,

280
00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:48,569
making them protect the pheromone
because many of these pheromones

281
00:15:48,569 --> 00:15:51,910
are sensitive to ultraviolet light
and so we have to protect them.

282
00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:55,020
So there's lots of different
lures and, uh, that you

283
00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:55,519
might see.

284
00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:59,689
Okay, so is each pheromone designed
for a different type of insect or

285
00:15:59,689 --> 00:16:03,969
is there a general all encompassing
pheromone for all of them?

286
00:16:04,110 --> 00:16:04,520
Yeah,

287
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,260
that's the beauty of the pheromones.

288
00:16:06,260 --> 00:16:08,639
That was our original, um, thinking.

289
00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:14,280
And that's why they work so well, is
they are very often species specific.

290
00:16:14,459 --> 00:16:18,879
Okay, so for example, codling moth
uses a particular chemical for its

291
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:21,150
pheromone that we have since found.

292
00:16:21,179 --> 00:16:23,400
There's no other insect that
uses anything like that.

293
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:24,839
And it's just a one.

294
00:16:25,079 --> 00:16:27,300
What we call a one
component sex pheromone.

295
00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:32,079
Now, that won't, that pheromone will
not be detected or smelled or used by

296
00:16:32,079 --> 00:16:34,109
any other insects or beneficial insects.

297
00:16:34,109 --> 00:16:36,010
So it's, it only affects codling moths.

298
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:36,510
Hmm.

299
00:16:36,769 --> 00:16:40,920
But as the science of pheromones
evolved and as we learned more, we

300
00:16:40,929 --> 00:16:44,609
learned that there were some insects,
let's say, uh, like the oblique banded

301
00:16:44,610 --> 00:16:46,740
leaf roller or oriental fruit moth.

302
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:50,079
Now they use something we call
multi component pheromones.

303
00:16:50,170 --> 00:16:50,900
So they might have...

304
00:16:51,175 --> 00:16:54,745
Two pheromones, two chemicals that
make up the complete pheromone signal.

305
00:16:55,334 --> 00:17:00,515
And it turns out that some insects might
share in common one of those components,

306
00:17:00,774 --> 00:17:02,345
but not both of the components.

307
00:17:02,354 --> 00:17:04,465
So what makes it specific
is when two are together.

308
00:17:04,964 --> 00:17:09,355
So we have learned that we can
control, in some cases, several insects

309
00:17:09,774 --> 00:17:12,115
with one component of pheromone.

310
00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:17,020
Well, how did the test
look out there in BC?

311
00:17:17,020 --> 00:17:19,010
What kind of results have you got?

312
00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:20,599
So what are the side effects?

313
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:21,599
If there are any,

314
00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:24,210
I'm going to have to apologize, Susan.

315
00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:27,160
My cell phone's gone very quiet,
so I didn't quite hear that

316
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:27,819
last question.

317
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,680
Um, my question is in where you
guys are in British Columbia.

318
00:17:31,740 --> 00:17:33,300
So how is it all working?

319
00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:37,100
And, uh, you know, how big a test
have you done of this particular

320
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:37,649
technique?

321
00:17:37,649 --> 00:17:41,590
Uh, in the Okanagan Valley, we
have tested several thousand

322
00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:42,999
acres of mating disruption.

323
00:17:43,860 --> 00:17:45,230
Uh, at, at different times.

324
00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:49,190
It, it has, um, these kinds of
technologies have led to the,

325
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:52,660
to the growth of the largest
organic apple industry in Canada.

326
00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:56,849
Um, one of our valleys called the
Simokin Valley is, they, they call

327
00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:58,640
themselves the organic capital of Canada.

328
00:17:58,980 --> 00:18:02,040
So it's, it's been highly successful
for the, for the organic apple

329
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:02,444
growers.

330
00:18:03,105 --> 00:18:03,655
Hmm.

331
00:18:03,705 --> 00:18:04,625
And side effects?

332
00:18:04,625 --> 00:18:06,175
Any negative side effects?

333
00:18:06,785 --> 00:18:07,155
Well,

334
00:18:08,115 --> 00:18:12,834
as you can well imagine, um, the negative
side effects, um, it's hard to call them

335
00:18:13,015 --> 00:18:17,425
negative, but they are, they have had
effects, is that when you stop spraying

336
00:18:17,755 --> 00:18:21,935
conventional insecticides, which are very
broad spectrum, that protect your orchards

337
00:18:21,935 --> 00:18:27,635
against all kinds of pests, we have seen a
growth over the last 25 years of invasive

338
00:18:27,635 --> 00:18:33,705
species that, Um, are having an impact
on our organic systems and our pheromones

339
00:18:33,705 --> 00:18:35,115
are not controlling those new pests.

340
00:18:35,115 --> 00:18:37,735
So we have, we have made
ourselves vulnerable.

341
00:18:38,439 --> 00:18:41,139
Uh, by not spraying to
these invasive incursions.

342
00:18:41,179 --> 00:18:44,480
And, uh, they may have come
anyways, but, uh, the chemicals

343
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:45,600
would have kept them under control.

344
00:18:45,610 --> 00:18:49,110
So now we're having to deal with
a number of invasive species, um,

345
00:18:49,179 --> 00:18:52,780
as, as a somewhat as a indirect
fact, effect of using pheromones.

346
00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:56,419
Are you talking about species
like Japanese beetles that...

347
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,360
that are, you know, affecting fruit trees?

348
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,980
Well, certainly the Japanese
beetle is an invasive species.

349
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,139
Uh, but not a, not a pest of
apples in British Columbia.

350
00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:09,860
Um, but we have a pest from
Europe called the apple clearwing

351
00:19:09,870 --> 00:19:11,959
moth that's become a pest.

352
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,129
Um, brown marmorated stink bug.

353
00:19:15,399 --> 00:19:18,060
And in British Columbia, we
would consider apple maggot an

354
00:19:18,060 --> 00:19:19,399
invasive species and a pest.

355
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:21,560
And we haven't yet discovered
it here in the Okanagan.

356
00:19:21,690 --> 00:19:22,419
Oh, really?

357
00:19:22,430 --> 00:19:22,950
Wow.

358
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:23,680
Amazing.

359
00:19:24,219 --> 00:19:25,550
Well, let's hope you don't get it.

360
00:19:25,795 --> 00:19:27,505
We do certainly have it here.

361
00:19:29,325 --> 00:19:31,445
Um, so that's very interesting.

362
00:19:31,445 --> 00:19:35,185
Now, are these, uh, pheromone
lures available to home growers

363
00:19:35,185 --> 00:19:39,215
or community orchardists or
people who grow fewer trees?

364
00:19:39,975 --> 00:19:40,715
You could, you could

365
00:19:40,715 --> 00:19:46,054
certainly buy pheromones and you
can buy pheromone traps, but, um,

366
00:19:46,105 --> 00:19:50,065
and so you could, there's a number
of outlets in, in, uh, in Southern

367
00:19:50,065 --> 00:19:51,735
Ontario or various parts of the U.

368
00:19:51,735 --> 00:19:51,925
S.

369
00:19:51,955 --> 00:19:52,495
that could.

370
00:19:57,190 --> 00:20:00,490
There was just someone knocking on
my car door as I was talking to you.

371
00:20:00,810 --> 00:20:01,500
Okay.

372
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:07,400
Um, so yes, you could buy these, uh, these
materials from a number of supply houses.

373
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,689
Um, now the traps, the pheromone traps
work very well for the backyard gardener

374
00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:13,799
or the small, or who might have 20 trees.

375
00:20:14,339 --> 00:20:15,259
But pheromones...

376
00:20:15,495 --> 00:20:18,874
that we use for mating
disruption, unfortunately, work

377
00:20:18,884 --> 00:20:20,684
best in very large acreages.

378
00:20:20,705 --> 00:20:24,274
We, we tend to think of the minimum
acreage that mating disruption

379
00:20:24,284 --> 00:20:25,674
might work to control calling mouth.

380
00:20:25,674 --> 00:20:27,844
We might think that there's
something around two to three

381
00:20:27,844 --> 00:20:31,384
acres of apples is necessary for
mating disruption to be effective.

382
00:20:31,725 --> 00:20:32,694
Okay, interesting.

383
00:20:33,610 --> 00:20:34,290
Well, Dr.

384
00:20:34,290 --> 00:20:38,070
Judd, in just a moment we're going to
hear a few words from our sponsors,

385
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,430
but after that I want to talk to you
about your other project, I think your

386
00:20:42,430 --> 00:20:47,629
newest project, and that is to breed
sterile pests to release in orchards.

387
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:50,120
Are you okay holding on
the line for a few minutes?

388
00:20:50,169 --> 00:20:50,629
I am.

389
00:20:50,939 --> 00:20:51,619
Great.

390
00:20:51,970 --> 00:20:56,280
And to the listeners, please do send
in your questions or comments for Dr.

391
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:56,669
Judd.

392
00:20:57,180 --> 00:20:58,780
Anything about fruit tree pests.

393
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,780
And past prevention, pheromones,
all that good stuff, and I'll

394
00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:04,100
ask those questions to Dr.

395
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:04,850
Judd for you.

396
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:10,249
Just send an email to us
now to Intu 1 0 1 gmail.com.

397
00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:15,640
You're listening to the Urban Forestry
Radio Show on Reality Radio 1 0 1.

398
00:21:15,910 --> 00:21:19,150
I'm Susan Poisoner and we'll
be back after the short break.

399
00:21:33,259 --> 00:21:38,149
I'm Susan Poisoner and in today's show
we're pulling back the curtains on the

400
00:21:38,155 --> 00:21:41,060
Sex Lives of Fruit Tree Insect Pest.

401
00:21:41,879 --> 00:21:45,679
You'll never look at an apple maggot
or codling moth again without blushing.

402
00:21:46,610 --> 00:21:48,030
My guest today is Dr.

403
00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:51,730
Gary Judd, an entomologist from
British Columbia's Summerland

404
00:21:51,730 --> 00:21:53,159
Research and Development Centre.

405
00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:54,689
So Dr.

406
00:21:54,889 --> 00:21:56,699
Judd, you're still on the line, right?

407
00:21:57,155 --> 00:21:57,675
Yes I am.

408
00:21:58,005 --> 00:22:02,605
So we've been talking about the historic
approaches of using the knowledge of

409
00:22:02,605 --> 00:22:07,635
insect pest mating habits as a way to
stop pests from ruining our fruit crops.

410
00:22:08,314 --> 00:22:11,215
Now so far we've chatted about
pheromone traps, we've chatted about

411
00:22:11,215 --> 00:22:16,295
other techniques, but I understand
that you've developed an approach that

412
00:22:16,295 --> 00:22:21,394
involves breeding sterile insect pests
and then bringing them into orchards.

413
00:22:21,570 --> 00:22:23,080
Can you tell me a little bit about that?

414
00:22:24,290 --> 00:22:25,600
Yes, I certainly can.

415
00:22:25,610 --> 00:22:27,090
Now, I want to be very honest.

416
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:31,710
This technique was developed by an
entomologist who has since retired from

417
00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:33,930
the Summerland Research Centre, Dr.

418
00:22:34,009 --> 00:22:34,830
Jinx Proverbs.

419
00:22:35,409 --> 00:22:42,639
And, um, he worked, his career spanned
somewhere between 1950 to 1985.

420
00:22:42,659 --> 00:22:44,790
So it's a fairly old technique.

421
00:22:45,460 --> 00:22:48,560
But he was working on codling
moth, which was the key pest

422
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:49,769
of apples here in the Okanagan.

423
00:22:50,545 --> 00:22:52,965
And the understanding and belief
was, if you could remove codling

424
00:22:52,965 --> 00:22:55,655
moth from the orchard, then you
really could grow organically.

425
00:22:55,655 --> 00:22:57,405
And that's pretty much the case today.

426
00:22:58,215 --> 00:23:02,954
So he, he was studying, um, a technique
called sterile insect technique.

427
00:23:03,684 --> 00:23:09,185
And in that technique, what you do is
you sterilize the male moths with, um,

428
00:23:09,814 --> 00:23:11,915
could be x rays or chemical sterilant.

429
00:23:11,935 --> 00:23:15,764
And those sterile moths are
then bred up in the laboratory

430
00:23:16,325 --> 00:23:18,635
and released into orchards.

431
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:23,120
Those sterile males then mate
with the wild female codling moth.

432
00:23:23,774 --> 00:23:27,465
And, as it turns out, in codling
moth, the female only mates once in

433
00:23:27,465 --> 00:23:31,375
her life, and if, if she mates with
a sterile male, she's fully satisfied

434
00:23:31,395 --> 00:23:36,145
and will then begin to lay eggs, and
those eggs will not hatch, they will

435
00:23:36,145 --> 00:23:39,924
be in fact sterile, and you won't get
any, uh, caterpillars forming, and you

436
00:23:39,925 --> 00:23:41,215
won't get any damage in your fruit.

437
00:23:41,254 --> 00:23:41,344
Hm,

438
00:23:42,014 --> 00:23:42,824
quite amazing.

439
00:23:43,094 --> 00:23:45,985
I'm just trying to imagine what
this would look like, like, where

440
00:23:45,985 --> 00:23:49,945
do you get all these male insects,
what happens if there's like, Female

441
00:23:49,945 --> 00:23:53,965
insects in the bunch and you put them
in an x ray machine or something.

442
00:23:53,965 --> 00:23:54,345
It's just

443
00:23:54,395 --> 00:23:55,105
yes.

444
00:23:55,215 --> 00:23:55,575
Yes.

445
00:23:55,755 --> 00:23:57,145
Well, dr Dr.

446
00:23:57,145 --> 00:24:01,565
Proverbs developed a technique for
for raising these these insects in

447
00:24:01,565 --> 00:24:07,784
trays of diet and Those the rearing
system he designed is housed in a in

448
00:24:07,785 --> 00:24:12,120
a Several thousand foot, uh, Griffith
facility in the Soyuz, British Columbia.

449
00:24:12,140 --> 00:24:14,610
That's right on the border
to the United States and the

450
00:24:14,610 --> 00:24:15,760
southern end of the Okanagan.

451
00:24:16,189 --> 00:24:19,110
So that, that was a several
million dollar facility.

452
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,909
That really is, um, it, it,
it produces millions of moths

453
00:24:23,929 --> 00:24:25,629
per week in a closed facility.

454
00:24:26,385 --> 00:24:30,525
And, it produces, as it turns out, it
produces males and females on that diet.

455
00:24:31,215 --> 00:24:35,305
But, the males and females are both,
uh, irrate, what we call, they're,

456
00:24:35,335 --> 00:24:39,484
they're, they're exposed to, to, uh,
irradiation, a gamma radiation, very

457
00:24:39,484 --> 00:24:41,064
similar to x rays, in a machine.

458
00:24:41,524 --> 00:24:44,174
And so, both the males and
females are sterilized.

459
00:24:44,174 --> 00:24:47,439
So, in fact, When what you
release into the orchard are

460
00:24:47,439 --> 00:24:49,479
sterile males and sterile females.

461
00:24:49,570 --> 00:24:53,340
The sterile females just lay sterile
eggs and the sterile males go in

462
00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:56,939
search of, of the wild females, and
that causes them to lay sterile eggs.

463
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:57,449
So this, so

464
00:24:57,449 --> 00:24:58,799
that's how the technique works.

465
00:24:58,949 --> 00:24:59,939
So this is amazing.

466
00:24:59,939 --> 00:25:02,169
So this has been, been in
existence for many years.

467
00:25:02,639 --> 00:25:06,299
Is it only now being brought
into, uh, orchards or, or

468
00:25:06,689 --> 00:25:08,485
No, as I say, Dr.

469
00:25:08,774 --> 00:25:13,705
Proverbs career spanned the 1950s to the
mid 1980s and then another entomologist

470
00:25:13,705 --> 00:25:15,735
took over his program on his retirement.

471
00:25:16,135 --> 00:25:21,105
And it took, um, from 1985 to
about 1992 to get the program that

472
00:25:21,105 --> 00:25:24,044
we have fully functioning here
in British Columbia in operation.

473
00:25:24,404 --> 00:25:27,925
It was a joint venture of regional
governments, provincial governments, and

474
00:25:27,925 --> 00:25:29,754
federal governments to build the facility.

475
00:25:30,215 --> 00:25:33,764
And in 1994 they made the first
releases of sterile codling moths.

476
00:25:34,304 --> 00:25:38,375
And ever since 1994, um, they have
been controlling codling moth in

477
00:25:38,375 --> 00:25:42,725
the Okanagan Valley, uh, uh, with
the sterile insect technique.

478
00:25:43,085 --> 00:25:45,874
So ever since the beginning of my career
when I was working on pheromones, the

479
00:25:45,875 --> 00:25:47,574
two programs were running parallel.

480
00:25:47,865 --> 00:25:48,005
Hmm.

481
00:25:48,645 --> 00:25:52,205
So do you need both programs now
or, or is one being phased out?

482
00:25:52,674 --> 00:25:53,124
Well,

483
00:25:53,215 --> 00:25:56,284
um, the sterile insect program
is, it's a good question.

484
00:25:56,364 --> 00:25:58,304
Um, it's a very expensive program.

485
00:25:58,415 --> 00:25:59,935
Um, and...

486
00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:06,439
We, um, it is very specific to codling
moth, and it's the only pest that we can

487
00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:07,970
currently control here in BC with it.

488
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,610
Now, we have a number of other indirect
pests, as I said to you earlier, we

489
00:26:11,610 --> 00:26:13,469
get a number of, uh, secondary pests.

490
00:26:13,820 --> 00:26:16,760
And so my work, uh, for the last
30 years has been in controlling

491
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,489
those other pests with pheromones.

492
00:26:18,699 --> 00:26:22,010
Now, we know full well we can also
control codling moth with pheromones.

493
00:26:22,679 --> 00:26:25,510
And so we can quote and quote codding
moth and several other insects

494
00:26:25,550 --> 00:26:30,200
if we just use pheromones, but
it's a very long running program.

495
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,890
It's very successful
and it's done area wide.

496
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,170
Everybody, everybody
must participate in it.

497
00:26:36,170 --> 00:26:37,050
It's legislated.

498
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:40,669
And so you can well understand
that even if we had an alternative

499
00:26:40,670 --> 00:26:42,339
technology like pheromones.

500
00:26:42,770 --> 00:26:46,840
Um, it's a very difficult, uh,
step to take to, to reverse that

501
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,800
program that's been so successful
for our control of codling moth.

502
00:26:50,350 --> 00:26:53,440
Wow, so basically it looks like
the two are working hand in hand.

503
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,020
You've got the sterile, uh, insect program
for codling moth, and then you've got the

504
00:26:58,020 --> 00:27:00,749
pheromones working for the other insects.

505
00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:01,249
That's correct.

506
00:27:01,530 --> 00:27:02,969
Do you need to spray anymore?

507
00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:04,770
Are these spray free orchards?

508
00:27:04,770 --> 00:27:05,189
Well,

509
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,290
most of our growers rarely
spray except, as I said, for

510
00:27:09,290 --> 00:27:10,909
these, these invasive species.

511
00:27:10,919 --> 00:27:14,899
We, we, um, not all, not all
growers make use of the pheromones.

512
00:27:14,909 --> 00:27:18,539
So those that don't use pheromones,
um, the pheromones are primarily

513
00:27:18,539 --> 00:27:19,659
used by organic growers.

514
00:27:19,660 --> 00:27:22,949
We still have conventional growers
who would have to spray for

515
00:27:22,949 --> 00:27:24,059
some of these secondary pests.

516
00:27:24,894 --> 00:27:30,225
And more recently, since 2006, we've had
this invasive pest, the apple clearing

517
00:27:30,225 --> 00:27:33,814
moth, that is causing us some concern
because our organic growers are now

518
00:27:33,824 --> 00:27:35,735
having to spray to control that insect.

519
00:27:36,314 --> 00:27:40,004
And, unfortunately, we have a
pheromone for it, we have identified

520
00:27:40,004 --> 00:27:43,594
the pheromone, and we've tried mating
disruption, but we are dealing with

521
00:27:43,594 --> 00:27:45,384
a pest that's in very large numbers.

522
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,899
Uh, and we, we need to get populations
down under, uh, lower levels before

523
00:27:50,899 --> 00:27:51,999
pheromones are really going to be

524
00:27:51,999 --> 00:27:52,479
effective.

525
00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:53,409
Mm hmm.

526
00:27:54,139 --> 00:27:56,209
Well, so what, what does
the future look like?

527
00:27:56,209 --> 00:27:57,820
What is your goal for the future?

528
00:27:58,539 --> 00:27:58,899
Well,

529
00:27:58,909 --> 00:28:02,629
the, the goal is to, uh, minimize
pesticides wherever we can, to

530
00:28:02,629 --> 00:28:07,090
use, um, the, this information
on chemical ecology and mating

531
00:28:07,090 --> 00:28:08,770
systems to control as many insects.

532
00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:15,110
The most exciting part of my work
right now is that we have only just

533
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:19,290
in the last two years discovered a
group of chemicals, natural chemicals,

534
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,300
that attract the female insects.

535
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:23,369
Many female insects.

536
00:28:23,369 --> 00:28:28,560
And so we do think if we can trap enough
female insects, And hopefully I'm not

537
00:28:28,570 --> 00:28:31,790
being naive like my predecessors, but
we believe if we can trap the female

538
00:28:31,790 --> 00:28:35,750
insects, then we could, uh, control
those populations without pesticides.

539
00:28:35,759 --> 00:28:39,450
So, my work and that of others will
continue on into the future after

540
00:28:39,450 --> 00:28:42,789
I'm retired, but, uh, this whole
area of chemical ecology and using

541
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:46,820
natural chemicals, I think is, is,
uh, going to be around for some time

542
00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:48,570
and, and only get more interesting.

543
00:28:48,775 --> 00:28:49,795
That is interesting.

544
00:28:50,045 --> 00:28:53,175
Is it happening anywhere else,
or is this just a BC program?

545
00:28:53,175 --> 00:28:55,235
Am I going to see it here in Ontario?

546
00:28:55,245 --> 00:28:58,305
We've got listeners in all
over the United States.

547
00:28:58,765 --> 00:29:01,695
The sterile insect program
for codling moth in British

548
00:29:01,695 --> 00:29:03,365
Columbia is a unique program.

549
00:29:03,365 --> 00:29:05,235
It's the only one of
its kind in the world.

550
00:29:05,315 --> 00:29:09,055
We, we have other sterile insect
programs in the world, but mainly

551
00:29:09,055 --> 00:29:12,225
in the tropics and they're used
to control tropical fruit flies.

552
00:29:12,255 --> 00:29:15,955
There's one in Arizona that controls
a pest of cotton pink molar, but the

553
00:29:15,955 --> 00:29:17,975
codling moth program in BC is unique.

554
00:29:18,659 --> 00:29:20,580
It is, um, being tested.

555
00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:24,659
The technique is being tested,
uh, by people in South Africa, in

556
00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:26,270
South America, and in New Zealand.

557
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,560
And the way it's being tested is they are
buying moths from our facility to release

558
00:29:31,599 --> 00:29:35,130
and, uh, during their season, because
being Southern Hemisphere countries,

559
00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:36,700
they grow in the opposite season to us.

560
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:40,740
So when our facility is, uh, down
in the, in the winter, we can

561
00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:42,180
produce moths and sell them south.

562
00:29:42,810 --> 00:29:45,970
Uh, and, and there are, so there are
other countries and industries trying

563
00:29:45,970 --> 00:29:47,410
to use this technique for cotton.

564
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:48,150
Hmm.

565
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:51,749
I'm very curious to see how it develops,
because I know that there are a lot

566
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:55,620
of people out there that would love
to know that the apples and, and

567
00:29:55,620 --> 00:29:58,860
pears and all the fruit that they're
buying doesn't have toxic chemicals

568
00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:01,539
on it, so it's a hopeful development.

569
00:30:02,705 --> 00:30:08,475
It very much is, but um, I will say
that there's a very large industry

570
00:30:08,785 --> 00:30:11,925
outside of British Columbia, the
Washington State industry for example.

571
00:30:12,605 --> 00:30:16,505
Almost 80% of its industry uses mating
disruption to control condom moths.

572
00:30:17,315 --> 00:30:19,975
There are other industries that are
very progressive in southern Ontario.

573
00:30:19,995 --> 00:30:24,355
I know you have a group of pests
that have not, um, have not been able

574
00:30:24,355 --> 00:30:25,495
to be controlled with pheromones.

575
00:30:25,515 --> 00:30:26,505
Something like apple maggot.

576
00:30:26,505 --> 00:30:29,364
And that does pose a problem
to entomologists and growers.

577
00:30:29,365 --> 00:30:32,524
And so we're having to develop
different techniques to control pests

578
00:30:32,524 --> 00:30:32,924
like that.

579
00:30:33,185 --> 00:30:34,455
Hm, quite amazing.

580
00:30:34,894 --> 00:30:35,435
Well, Dr.

581
00:30:35,435 --> 00:30:37,644
Judd, it's been really
great to talk to you.

582
00:30:37,705 --> 00:30:40,205
And I appreciate you
coming on the show today.

583
00:30:40,730 --> 00:30:42,270
Well, thank you so much for having me.

584
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:42,940
I was glad to be

585
00:30:42,940 --> 00:30:43,110
here.

586
00:30:43,210 --> 00:30:44,010
Oh, great.

587
00:30:44,010 --> 00:30:44,980
Okay, goodbye for now.

588
00:30:44,990 --> 00:30:46,580
Hopefully we'll talk again someday.

589
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:47,250
Goodbye, Susan.

590
00:30:47,650 --> 00:30:48,340
Thanks.

591
00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:52,330
Well, if you missed the beginning
of this interview, or if you would

592
00:30:52,330 --> 00:30:55,560
like to listen to it again, you
can of course download the podcast.

593
00:30:55,570 --> 00:30:57,350
Just go to orchardpeople.

594
00:30:57,390 --> 00:30:59,060
com slash network.

595
00:30:59,490 --> 00:31:03,760
And while you're there, you can sign
up for our iTunes podcast feed so that

596
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,290
you can catch up on previous episodes
and so that you don't miss future ones.

597
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:09,210
But wait!

598
00:31:09,490 --> 00:31:14,520
Don't go anywhere yet, because coming
up after a word from our sponsors, we

599
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,460
will explore fruit tree irrigation.

600
00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:19,409
Is it, is there a right way?

601
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:20,580
Is there a wrong way?

602
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,540
Is this a hard thing to do?

603
00:31:22,580 --> 00:31:23,930
Apparently it is.

604
00:31:24,370 --> 00:31:27,119
And we're going to find out
more from Sacramento based

605
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,529
fruit tree expert Chuck Ingalls.

606
00:31:29,740 --> 00:31:34,850
You're listening to the Urban Forestry
Radio Show on Reality Radio 101.

607
00:31:35,425 --> 00:31:39,005
I'm Susan Poizner, and we'll
be back after this short break.

608
00:32:01,705 --> 00:32:07,464
I'm Susan Poizner, and you're listening to
the Urban Forestry Radio Show, a program

609
00:32:07,465 --> 00:32:12,075
where we learn about fruit trees, food
forests, permaculture, and lots more.

610
00:32:12,615 --> 00:32:13,765
Thanks for tuning in.

611
00:32:14,025 --> 00:32:17,334
In the first half of the
show, we spoke to Dr.

612
00:32:17,384 --> 00:32:22,235
Gary Judd about understanding the
sex lives of insect pests, and

613
00:32:22,245 --> 00:32:26,175
how that can help us protect our
trees from insect infestations.

614
00:32:27,045 --> 00:32:32,095
Now we love it when you reach out and
contact us and we've got an email here

615
00:32:32,105 --> 00:32:35,485
from Chase who says, Wow, what a show.

616
00:32:35,705 --> 00:32:36,954
Very interesting.

617
00:32:37,405 --> 00:32:39,485
Good luck with the continued research.

618
00:32:39,495 --> 00:32:41,085
So I wish that Dr.

619
00:32:41,085 --> 00:32:45,195
Judd was still on the line so we
can hear that encouraging comment.

620
00:32:46,065 --> 00:32:50,515
Now protecting your fruit trees
from insect infestation is really

621
00:32:50,515 --> 00:32:56,160
important but one of the key ways that
you can do this is to actually just

622
00:32:56,190 --> 00:33:00,790
care for your trees properly in the
first place, especially when they're

623
00:33:00,790 --> 00:33:02,990
young and establishing themselves.

624
00:33:03,890 --> 00:33:08,310
Now, there are various tasks involved
in fruit tree care, including annual

625
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:13,080
pruning, fertility management,
and more, but one of the key jobs

626
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,100
is correct fruit tree irrigation.

627
00:33:17,070 --> 00:33:18,610
Now why is that so important?

628
00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:24,750
Well, fruit trees can only take in
nutrients from the soil in liquid form.

629
00:33:25,220 --> 00:33:29,859
So, a dehydrated fruit tree is
actually a malnourished fruit tree.

630
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,630
And when a fruit tree is
malnourished, it is weaker.

631
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,710
And of course, more vulnerable
to pests and disease.

632
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:39,860
So, I wanted to talk to Chuck Ingles.

633
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:45,130
An expert in palmology, viticulture,
environmental horticulture, and

634
00:33:45,130 --> 00:33:50,430
more from the UC Cooperative
Extension in Sacramento, California.

635
00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:52,289
We're going to be talking in a minute.

636
00:33:52,289 --> 00:33:55,850
Now if you have questions and
anything related to fruit tree

637
00:33:55,860 --> 00:34:02,420
irrigation, do send your email
to us now in studio 101 at gmail.

638
00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:03,060
com.

639
00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:07,140
Now I understand that
Chuck is on the line.

640
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,060
So Chuck, are you there with me?

641
00:34:10,675 --> 00:34:11,085
Yes.

642
00:34:11,345 --> 00:34:12,195
Hi, good to be here.

643
00:34:12,415 --> 00:34:13,775
Good to have you.

644
00:34:14,035 --> 00:34:17,395
How's the how's the weather over
there in California this year?

645
00:34:17,395 --> 00:34:20,115
Is it as dry as it has been in years past?

646
00:34:21,250 --> 00:34:25,480
The summers are definitely typically dry,
and right now we're going through a heat

647
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,510
wave, as I think much of the country is.

648
00:34:27,910 --> 00:34:30,399
We're supposed to reach about 104, 105

649
00:34:30,399 --> 00:34:30,789
today.

650
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:31,920
Oh my goodness.

651
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,769
Oh, that doesn't sound very pleasant.

652
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:34,750
And all week.

653
00:34:35,050 --> 00:34:38,839
Oh my goodness, I've been complaining
here in Toronto, it's hot too.

654
00:34:39,810 --> 00:34:44,700
So, if irrigation is important
anywhere, it must be in California,

655
00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:46,430
where your heat is just...

656
00:34:46,595 --> 00:34:47,845
so extreme.

657
00:34:48,315 --> 00:34:50,765
Um, well, tell me a little
bit first about California.

658
00:34:50,775 --> 00:34:55,505
Why is proper irrigation essential
in in your part of the world?

659
00:34:56,755 --> 00:35:01,664
Well, fruit trees won't grow in a
desert without water and we basically

660
00:35:01,694 --> 00:35:03,675
are in a desert in the Central Valley.

661
00:35:04,224 --> 00:35:08,425
Uh, and so Irrigation
is mandatory every year.

662
00:35:08,465 --> 00:35:11,865
In some parts of the country,
it's not, but here we definitely

663
00:35:11,865 --> 00:35:15,175
have to water and water a correct
amount to keep the trees healthy.

664
00:35:15,685 --> 00:35:18,945
Well, it's interesting because I
know here in Ontario, there are some

665
00:35:18,945 --> 00:35:23,035
orchards, organic orchards, that
don't even have irrigation systems.

666
00:35:24,495 --> 00:35:30,035
Yeah, and that can work where you don't
have really hot conditions and maybe get

667
00:35:30,035 --> 00:35:31,925
some summer rainfall, which we don't.

668
00:35:32,535 --> 00:35:33,845
And the roots are.

669
00:35:34,650 --> 00:35:38,650
Deeper because they have to grow deeper
because that's where the moisture is.

670
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:40,990
So that builds their drought tolerance.

671
00:35:42,370 --> 00:35:42,700
Yeah,

672
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:45,080
and yet it can also lead to trouble.

673
00:35:45,099 --> 00:35:47,510
This year we had such a dry spring.

674
00:35:47,549 --> 00:35:49,940
We have a we're having a very dry summer.

675
00:35:50,299 --> 00:35:54,740
I don't know what what would
that do to those fruit trees.

676
00:35:54,740 --> 00:35:57,800
These are beautiful orchards
that haven't had, you know,

677
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,540
hardly a drop of water in months.

678
00:36:00,675 --> 00:36:01,235
Well, we

679
00:36:01,235 --> 00:36:04,705
get that problem when we don't
have enough winter rainfall.

680
00:36:04,705 --> 00:36:09,605
And so often, not often, but sometimes
when that happens, growers and

681
00:36:09,895 --> 00:36:15,865
individuals need to water their trees
late in the winter to start the soil,

682
00:36:16,054 --> 00:36:19,925
to start the season out with a full
profile of moisture in the soil.

683
00:36:20,455 --> 00:36:24,960
Uh, so when you don't start the season,
Enough, then you're going to with enough

684
00:36:25,150 --> 00:36:28,880
moisture, then you're going to go through
the summer with stress of some kind.

685
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,890
And in your case, it may not
kill the trees, but the trees.

686
00:36:32,235 --> 00:36:35,965
will probably be stunted, and
they'll have smaller fruit.

687
00:36:36,305 --> 00:36:36,925
Hmm.

688
00:36:37,695 --> 00:36:39,695
Yeah, who knows if they
even have fruit at all.

689
00:36:39,695 --> 00:36:44,534
I looked at our trees in our orchard
park, and we spend hours out there on

690
00:36:44,535 --> 00:36:48,404
the weekends just with hoses watering
and watering because it's been such a

691
00:36:48,405 --> 00:36:51,545
dry year, and I just think, you know,
whatever fruit is on those trees, if

692
00:36:51,545 --> 00:36:53,305
I was the fruit tree, I would drop it.

693
00:36:53,825 --> 00:36:57,065
Because that fruit, you know,
it takes up a lot of energy.

694
00:36:57,870 --> 00:37:00,250
So, um, yeah.

695
00:37:00,250 --> 00:37:01,660
So, I mean, is that the case?

696
00:37:01,660 --> 00:37:03,890
Does it drop the fruit
as well when it's dry?

697
00:37:04,990 --> 00:37:05,240
Yeah.

698
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:09,200
If there's not enough fruit, uh,
enough moisture in the soil, then they

699
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,119
may not set as well to start with.

700
00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:15,799
But yes, if they're, if they go through
the season with insufficient water,

701
00:37:15,890 --> 00:37:17,689
then they will drop some of that fruit,

702
00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:18,310
no doubt.

703
00:37:19,150 --> 00:37:22,950
So, so whether it's in
California, what do the irrigation

704
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:25,040
systems look like in orchards?

705
00:37:25,090 --> 00:37:27,030
What, what kind of
irrigation do you guys do?

706
00:37:27,915 --> 00:37:31,945
Well, uh, originally there used to be
a lot of flooding, and there still is

707
00:37:31,945 --> 00:37:37,765
some, uh, there was furrow irrigation,
and more and more, uh, orchards are,

708
00:37:38,245 --> 00:37:42,724
then became sprinkler irrigated,
and now drip irrigation and micro

709
00:37:42,724 --> 00:37:46,884
sprinklers are probably at least as
prominent as sprinkler irrigation.

710
00:37:46,885 --> 00:37:47,071
What are

711
00:37:47,071 --> 00:37:48,445
the, what, mm hmm,

712
00:37:49,205 --> 00:37:49,245
sorry.

713
00:37:49,395 --> 00:37:52,875
Drip lines, uh, you know, a single
drip line going down the center,

714
00:37:52,905 --> 00:37:55,045
or usually one on either side.

715
00:37:55,665 --> 00:37:58,995
If there's micro sprinklers, there'd
be a single line with, you know,

716
00:37:58,995 --> 00:38:00,335
a micro sprinkler between each

717
00:38:00,335 --> 00:38:00,755
tree.

718
00:38:01,385 --> 00:38:03,855
What are the pros and cons
of the different approaches?

719
00:38:05,165 --> 00:38:10,945
Um, the pros of using drip and
micro sprinkler is that it uses less

720
00:38:10,945 --> 00:38:15,735
water, especially drip irrigation,
as long as it's managed correctly.

721
00:38:16,205 --> 00:38:19,435
Uh, the con for drip irrigation is that...

722
00:38:20,345 --> 00:38:24,565
You don't wet the entire soil
surface, and that's true with

723
00:38:24,565 --> 00:38:29,355
micro sprinklers, too, usually, but
you wet a bigger area with micro

724
00:38:29,355 --> 00:38:31,155
sprinklers than with drip irrigation.

725
00:38:32,454 --> 00:38:33,545
But you can still do it.

726
00:38:33,555 --> 00:38:37,784
For instance, all of our grape growers
here use, those that use drip irrigation,

727
00:38:37,795 --> 00:38:41,885
it's right down the row, so the middles
between the vines are not getting

728
00:38:41,885 --> 00:38:43,855
any water, which you can still do it.

729
00:38:44,385 --> 00:38:45,145
Uh, it's just...

730
00:38:45,615 --> 00:38:50,045
Um, for fruit trees, we'd like to have
a little wider coverage because the

731
00:38:50,045 --> 00:38:50,765
trees are bigger.

732
00:38:51,075 --> 00:38:55,805
Yeah, I'm just kind of imagining how in
the ground as the roots are spread out,

733
00:38:55,815 --> 00:38:59,575
they, they kind of probably congregate
those underground roots towards

734
00:38:59,575 --> 00:39:03,324
where that drip system is, and then
everywhere else, either the roots are

735
00:39:03,324 --> 00:39:05,505
dead or they're just not very active.

736
00:39:05,505 --> 00:39:09,115
Is that what I might see if I
could go and look into the soil?

737
00:39:09,725 --> 00:39:10,735
That's exactly right.

738
00:39:10,825 --> 00:39:15,985
Uh, if you start the spring with
a full profile of soil, Uh, uh,

739
00:39:15,985 --> 00:39:17,635
I'm sorry, water in the soil.

740
00:39:18,045 --> 00:39:22,605
Then the roots can continue to grow
out into that below the, you know,

741
00:39:22,605 --> 00:39:26,555
well below the surface through the
season, cuz there'll be some moisture.

742
00:39:26,555 --> 00:39:31,025
As long as there's not a lot of weeds,
which take a lot of that soil moisture

743
00:39:31,025 --> 00:39:32,945
away, then they can continue to grow.

744
00:39:33,155 --> 00:39:37,175
But they will dry out eventually
and more and more of the water will

745
00:39:37,175 --> 00:39:41,525
be taken up from where the soil is
moist, uh, from drip irrigation.

746
00:39:41,895 --> 00:39:42,245
Hmm.

747
00:39:43,115 --> 00:39:43,945
Interesting.

748
00:39:44,175 --> 00:39:48,955
So thinking in terms of home growers,
people in their backyard, uh, so you

749
00:39:48,955 --> 00:39:52,815
say micro sprinklers, I mean, I know
people who put a regular, you know,

750
00:39:52,815 --> 00:39:56,195
grass sprinkler or whatever on their
tree and they just leave it for a few

751
00:39:56,195 --> 00:39:58,485
hours and water their tree that way.

752
00:39:58,485 --> 00:40:02,285
Is that a good way to water your tree or
if you're doing a backyard orchardist?

753
00:40:03,275 --> 00:40:03,455
It

754
00:40:03,455 --> 00:40:04,225
certainly can

755
00:40:04,225 --> 00:40:09,825
work as long as you, uh, water more when
it's warm and water less when it's cooler.

756
00:40:10,165 --> 00:40:14,255
Uh, but nowadays, especially
in California with the drought,

757
00:40:14,255 --> 00:40:15,515
we've had a four year drought.

758
00:40:15,925 --> 00:40:18,975
And some people say we're not
in a drought, but we still are

759
00:40:18,975 --> 00:40:20,924
and we almost always will be.

760
00:40:21,345 --> 00:40:23,715
Uh, we're going to need to
pay really close attention to

761
00:40:23,715 --> 00:40:24,885
how much water we're using.

762
00:40:25,985 --> 00:40:31,045
In many water districts in urban
areas, people were given last year

763
00:40:31,045 --> 00:40:36,274
one or two days a week to water, which
really isn't enough for some things,

764
00:40:36,865 --> 00:40:40,864
including lawns and fruit trees,
too, if you have drip irrigation.

765
00:40:41,035 --> 00:40:48,235
Uh, so, um, uh, I forgot where I was
leading with that, but, uh, but it

766
00:40:48,235 --> 00:40:53,175
is important, really important to
water, uh, Enough and not water too

767
00:40:53,185 --> 00:40:53,395
much.

768
00:40:53,625 --> 00:40:54,985
Yeah, that's the other problem.

769
00:40:54,995 --> 00:40:56,445
That's the other problem that you get.

770
00:40:56,455 --> 00:41:02,125
You know, um, we have, uh, little
espalier, lovely little espalier fruit

771
00:41:02,175 --> 00:41:06,115
trees in our backyard and there's the
temptation to water them every day

772
00:41:06,115 --> 00:41:07,905
because, you know, we have the water.

773
00:41:08,275 --> 00:41:09,175
Why not?

774
00:41:09,195 --> 00:41:10,484
It's good for them, right?

775
00:41:10,994 --> 00:41:12,724
But could that be a problem as well?

776
00:41:13,745 --> 00:41:14,215
Right.

777
00:41:14,265 --> 00:41:19,685
Watering every day could work if
you're under really, uh, severe

778
00:41:19,825 --> 00:41:21,565
heat and you have drip irrigation.

779
00:41:21,975 --> 00:41:26,235
You may need to water every day
because you have few points, sources

780
00:41:26,235 --> 00:41:30,095
where that water is available for
the trees and it dries out quickly.

781
00:41:30,655 --> 00:41:35,895
Uh, but generally, sprinkling, uh,
and watering every day otherwise.

782
00:41:36,315 --> 00:41:41,025
Is not a good idea because you
want to let the roots go deeper.

783
00:41:41,025 --> 00:41:45,425
You want to let the soil not dry
out, but become less saturated.

784
00:41:46,155 --> 00:41:51,375
So the air comes back into the soil
because when you water, especially flutter

785
00:41:51,385 --> 00:41:55,845
for irrigation or sprinklers, you drive
a lot of that moisture out of the soil,

786
00:41:55,845 --> 00:41:57,935
especially under clay soil conditions.

787
00:41:58,555 --> 00:42:00,595
So you need to let it dry out a little.

788
00:42:00,905 --> 00:42:04,905
And the other thing is there are diseases
that Occur when the soil is wet all

789
00:42:04,905 --> 00:42:06,895
the time, especially in clay soil.

790
00:42:07,315 --> 00:42:09,715
So, you want to not have the soil.

791
00:42:10,025 --> 00:42:12,255
Wet all the time or anaerobic.

792
00:42:12,495 --> 00:42:14,475
Oh, well, that's an interesting point.

793
00:42:14,475 --> 00:42:18,935
So if you water too much you can be
incurring Inadvertently encouraging

794
00:42:18,935 --> 00:42:23,085
disease so we wouldn't want to do that
and we definitely have clay heavy clay

795
00:42:23,085 --> 00:42:30,165
soil Here in in Toronto at least so I have
two questions here that just came in from

796
00:42:30,195 --> 00:42:32,605
Clifford now He says his first question.

797
00:42:32,995 --> 00:42:36,505
What is the best type of
emitter to use for fruit trees?

798
00:42:36,535 --> 00:42:37,835
And where can I get them?

799
00:42:38,385 --> 00:42:42,555
Now let's see, he has another question,
so take note of question number one.

800
00:42:43,215 --> 00:42:46,485
Does chlorination affect fruit trees?

801
00:42:46,545 --> 00:42:51,115
Um, we use city water at
home from Clifford, so what,

802
00:42:51,115 --> 00:42:52,635
what do you have to say?

803
00:42:53,264 --> 00:42:58,174
Okay, first on the drip emitters, uh,
my preference, and I think a really

804
00:42:58,174 --> 00:43:03,075
good strategy, is to use Inline
drip tubing, which has the drip

805
00:43:03,105 --> 00:43:05,395
emitters built into the drip tubing.

806
00:43:06,125 --> 00:43:09,795
Uh, that way you just run it,
uh, in a circle around the tree

807
00:43:09,815 --> 00:43:12,525
or in rows alongside the tree.

808
00:43:13,084 --> 00:43:16,715
Uh, and you don't have to worry
about an emitter getting, uh,

809
00:43:16,735 --> 00:43:18,934
kicked off when you walk around.

810
00:43:19,395 --> 00:43:22,655
Uh, so it's, it's just a, it
looks like drip tubing, but it

811
00:43:22,665 --> 00:43:24,905
has the emitters built into it.

812
00:43:25,085 --> 00:43:25,305
And

813
00:43:25,305 --> 00:43:28,234
where would you be able to
get something like that?

814
00:43:28,235 --> 00:43:28,615
Yeah.

815
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:34,920
Uh, big box stores, Terriot, um,
and, uh, irrigation supply stores.

816
00:43:35,305 --> 00:43:38,545
You have a better line of them
usually, and they'll help.

817
00:43:38,735 --> 00:43:42,775
They usually work with commercial,
um, landscape people, but

818
00:43:42,785 --> 00:43:44,215
they'll work with homeowners too.

819
00:43:44,924 --> 00:43:47,595
Uh, so there are definitely
places to buy it.

820
00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:49,564
Hardware stores too will often have it.

821
00:43:50,025 --> 00:43:53,875
Uh, the problem is, and we often
recommend using wood chip mulch.

822
00:43:54,184 --> 00:43:57,935
So you never see the drip tubing, which
can be a problem because you never

823
00:43:57,935 --> 00:43:59,985
know if it's clogged and not working.

824
00:44:00,435 --> 00:44:05,945
That's why micro sprinklers are
often good, uh, because You can

825
00:44:05,975 --> 00:44:09,295
turn it on and look down the row and
see, oh yeah, they're all working.

826
00:44:09,985 --> 00:44:12,635
Uh, unlike drip irrigation, you
can't see if they're working

827
00:44:12,635 --> 00:44:13,045
at all.

828
00:44:13,465 --> 00:44:15,554
And what about that
question about chlorination?

829
00:44:15,564 --> 00:44:20,445
We are indeed using city water to water
these trees and, uh, I can sometimes

830
00:44:20,445 --> 00:44:22,525
even smell the chlorine in our tap water.

831
00:44:22,924 --> 00:44:23,614
How does that affect the

832
00:44:24,064 --> 00:44:24,284
fruit trees?

833
00:44:24,294 --> 00:44:25,425
Yeah, chlorination is fine.

834
00:44:25,465 --> 00:44:26,895
It doesn't hurt anything.

835
00:44:26,985 --> 00:44:27,335
Oh, good.

836
00:44:28,015 --> 00:44:29,695
Yeah, no problem at all.

837
00:44:29,755 --> 00:44:36,364
It's only when you try to use something
that's like, uh, Bt or some other

838
00:44:36,635 --> 00:44:40,455
organism that you're spraying for
pest control, there's some of them

839
00:44:40,525 --> 00:44:44,194
that you need to have non chlorinated
water because it kills the organism.

840
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:45,210
Uh huh.

841
00:44:45,220 --> 00:44:45,490
Spraying

842
00:44:45,490 --> 00:44:45,710
on the tree.

843
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,680
That would not be helpful then.

844
00:44:47,690 --> 00:44:47,710
No.

845
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,830
You're trying to put something
good on and it's dead by the

846
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,050
time it gets on your tree.

847
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:52,510
Exactly.

848
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,970
Well, okay, so we've talked about
emitters and a little bit about frequency.

849
00:44:57,970 --> 00:45:02,330
There would be, it would be so
good to know how much is enough.

850
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,420
Like is there a way to test,
is my fruit tree getting

851
00:45:05,420 --> 00:45:07,200
enough water or too much water?

852
00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:09,920
Well there certainly...

853
00:45:10,370 --> 00:45:11,760
It are several ways.

854
00:45:11,860 --> 00:45:17,710
Uh, one way is to dig in the
soil and see how deep the water,

855
00:45:17,730 --> 00:45:19,369
the moisture in the soil is.

856
00:45:19,855 --> 00:45:23,865
And that's a really good strategy, but
there's better ways than digging a hole.

857
00:45:24,185 --> 00:45:28,974
And one includes using a soil sampling
tube to pull a core of soil out of the,

858
00:45:29,335 --> 00:45:34,545
you know, out, and you can look at it
and see how dry it is on the top versus.

859
00:45:36,430 --> 00:45:38,400
How deep do you want it to be watering?

860
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:44,200
Like, do you want it to, the soil to
be damp 2 inches down, 6 inches down?

861
00:45:44,650 --> 00:45:44,840
Well,

862
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:51,300
the majority of the fruit tree roots of
almost all fruit trees in most conditions

863
00:45:51,809 --> 00:45:54,870
are down to about 18 inches to 2 feet.

864
00:45:55,370 --> 00:45:56,020
The majority of...

865
00:45:56,445 --> 00:46:01,235
Tree roots are in the top two feet
on large trees in the top three feet.

866
00:46:01,235 --> 00:46:05,325
So you may have a taproot initially when
you plant the tree, but that taproot.

867
00:46:05,675 --> 00:46:10,405
Basically goes away and the roots
move out laterally, so all your roots

868
00:46:10,405 --> 00:46:15,085
are moving out and even beyond the
drip line or the edge of the canopy.

869
00:46:15,305 --> 00:46:16,694
They're going outward.

870
00:46:17,085 --> 00:46:18,685
So you want to water that deep.

871
00:46:18,694 --> 00:46:22,144
So you want to somehow check
the soil that deep if possible.

872
00:46:22,655 --> 00:46:22,975
Hmm.

873
00:46:23,765 --> 00:46:23,945
And if it's...

874
00:46:23,945 --> 00:46:24,735
But there's other ways.

875
00:46:24,735 --> 00:46:25,475
Okay, yeah.

876
00:46:25,515 --> 00:46:31,025
Yeah, there's other ways you can,
you can, um, you can keep track

877
00:46:31,235 --> 00:46:35,875
of evapotranspiration, which
is a mouthful, I understand.

878
00:46:36,875 --> 00:46:40,634
Evapotranspiration is a combination
of evaporation of water from the

879
00:46:40,635 --> 00:46:44,695
soil and transpiration of water
through the leaves of a tree.

880
00:46:45,225 --> 00:46:46,825
So, there are...

881
00:46:47,095 --> 00:46:52,645
Sites and I looked on online to
see if Toronto has sites that list

882
00:46:52,655 --> 00:46:55,315
the daily evapotranspiration rates.

883
00:46:55,775 --> 00:46:58,075
Uh, but I couldn't find any.

884
00:47:00,355 --> 00:47:03,544
I don't know if you have them
available, But basically the warmer

885
00:47:03,544 --> 00:47:05,184
it is, the more water you're applying.

886
00:47:05,185 --> 00:47:06,824
The cooler it is, the less
water you're applying.

887
00:47:06,825 --> 00:47:07,735
Hmm.

888
00:47:08,575 --> 00:47:10,975
Somebody's got to figure
out an easy way to do this.

889
00:47:10,975 --> 00:47:14,085
I've got at home, uh, a
little self watering pot.

890
00:47:14,155 --> 00:47:18,305
And, uh, it's for little seedlings
that I'm growing for the garden.

891
00:47:18,305 --> 00:47:21,974
And you can see a red line on
this sort of, it, it looks like a

892
00:47:21,975 --> 00:47:24,344
thermometer in the, in the soil.

893
00:47:24,345 --> 00:47:27,855
And it tells you, okay, uh,
you need to add more water.

894
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,520
Somebody needs to invent that for
homegrowers because, you know, and

895
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,930
also it's like the soil is moist today.

896
00:47:35,950 --> 00:47:39,780
So do you want to wait until it's
dry, dry, dry until you water again?

897
00:47:41,010 --> 00:47:41,410
I don't know.

898
00:47:41,410 --> 00:47:44,230
Your thoughts on my meandering thoughts?

899
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,610
Well, there are soil moisture
testers, but they usually

900
00:47:48,610 --> 00:47:50,199
don't go very deep in the soil.

901
00:47:50,199 --> 00:47:50,229
And...

902
00:47:52,445 --> 00:47:55,025
And, and there are various sensors.

903
00:47:55,085 --> 00:47:58,615
I use certain types of sensors
that are a little complicated,

904
00:47:58,615 --> 00:47:59,825
but not that complicated.

905
00:47:59,825 --> 00:48:01,745
They go deep into the soil.

906
00:48:01,775 --> 00:48:05,664
So you can basically have eyes
in the soil and see how dry the

907
00:48:05,665 --> 00:48:07,184
soil is without having to dig.

908
00:48:08,184 --> 00:48:09,655
But those are a little complicated.

909
00:48:09,675 --> 00:48:13,875
And, and, uh, the other thing
is, if your trees are healthy.

910
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:18,410
And they're growing well, they set a lot
of fruit and produce a lot of good fruit.

911
00:48:18,750 --> 00:48:20,380
You're probably doing something right.

912
00:48:20,970 --> 00:48:26,650
Uh, but if you, a lot of times you'll
have small fruit or you'll have, which

913
00:48:26,650 --> 00:48:30,760
could be related to several things,
or you'll have stunted trees, which

914
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,350
could also be related to other things.

915
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,340
Uh, but, uh, but tree
health and production.

916
00:48:36,770 --> 00:48:38,850
are a good indication that
you might be doing something

917
00:48:38,850 --> 00:48:39,210
right.

918
00:48:40,020 --> 00:48:41,710
Hmm, well that's a good
way to think about it.

919
00:48:42,190 --> 00:48:43,990
I so appreciate you coming on the show.

920
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:46,579
I feel like we could continue
talking for quite a while, and it's

921
00:48:46,579 --> 00:48:50,270
amazing, because again, you think,
irrigation, oh isn't it basic?

922
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,060
And it's kind of complicated.

923
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,730
If I could just say one other thing, this
is really common where people think you

924
00:48:56,730 --> 00:48:59,190
need to set the hose right by the trunk.

925
00:48:59,550 --> 00:49:00,780
That's where all the roots are.

926
00:49:01,150 --> 00:49:03,120
You don't want to water by the trunk.

927
00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:06,700
Unless it's a really young tree,
the roots are moving outward.

928
00:49:06,980 --> 00:49:09,640
You've got to move that water
out and keep the trunk dry

929
00:49:10,140 --> 00:49:10,760
below ground.

930
00:49:10,930 --> 00:49:14,429
That's a really good point because,
of course, uh, you know, they say you

931
00:49:14,430 --> 00:49:18,910
really want the, under the canopy of
the tree, the farthest canopy, so it's

932
00:49:18,910 --> 00:49:20,369
actually quite far from the trunk.

933
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:22,400
Right, exactly.

934
00:49:23,625 --> 00:49:27,025
Roots are near the trunk too, but
we want to keep the trunk dry to

935
00:49:27,025 --> 00:49:29,685
keep, uh, to keep it from dying.

936
00:49:30,495 --> 00:49:35,494
Some diseases love that moisture around
the trunk, so keep that area dry.

937
00:49:36,045 --> 00:49:38,794
I have another, Clifford
has sent us another email.

938
00:49:38,805 --> 00:49:41,154
He's obviously very
interested in this topic.

939
00:49:41,184 --> 00:49:46,054
Now he says, and this is interesting
actually, Is it, is it best to water

940
00:49:46,054 --> 00:49:48,125
a fruit tree once during the day?

941
00:49:48,620 --> 00:49:52,960
Or multiple times during
the day, morning or evening?

942
00:49:53,780 --> 00:49:56,480
Well, the multiple times would
only be if there was a slope and

943
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:57,500
you don't want it to run off.

944
00:49:57,500 --> 00:50:01,130
So you water a little, let it
sit, water a little, let it sit.

945
00:50:01,770 --> 00:50:05,550
Uh, generally water all at once to
get it down to the 18 inches, of

946
00:50:05,550 --> 00:50:06,640
course, unless you have the slope.

947
00:50:07,350 --> 00:50:10,830
But regarding his other question
about emitters, if he's gonna use

948
00:50:10,830 --> 00:50:15,850
punch in emitters on the drip tubing,
then use pressure compensating Emitt.

949
00:50:16,805 --> 00:50:19,605
Generally, one gallon per
hour or thereabouts is

950
00:50:19,605 --> 00:50:20,065
best.

951
00:50:20,585 --> 00:50:21,105
Wow.

952
00:50:21,125 --> 00:50:22,085
Fantastic.

953
00:50:22,555 --> 00:50:25,435
Oh, thank you so much for
coming on the show today.

954
00:50:25,805 --> 00:50:26,385
Oh, you're welcome.

955
00:50:26,385 --> 00:50:26,984
My pleasure.

956
00:50:27,015 --> 00:50:29,185
Hopefully, you'll come back
and I know you, there's lots of

957
00:50:29,185 --> 00:50:30,335
things that you can talk about.

958
00:50:30,335 --> 00:50:31,655
So maybe we'll get you back another day.

959
00:50:31,655 --> 00:50:32,825
We'll talk about something else.

960
00:50:33,415 --> 00:50:33,675
Yep.

961
00:50:33,784 --> 00:50:34,134
Okay.

962
00:50:34,524 --> 00:50:35,234
Okay.

963
00:50:35,405 --> 00:50:36,255
Thank you so much.

964
00:50:36,255 --> 00:50:36,845
Goodbye.

965
00:50:36,845 --> 00:50:37,494
Bye.

966
00:50:38,605 --> 00:50:40,415
Okay, well, that was fast.

967
00:50:40,425 --> 00:50:41,895
That's all for the show today.

968
00:50:41,895 --> 00:50:45,925
And it was really nice to speak to
my special guests, Chuck Ingalls,

969
00:50:45,985 --> 00:50:50,984
Palmology, Viticulture, Environmental
Horticulture, and Master Gardener

970
00:50:50,985 --> 00:50:54,705
Advisor at the University of
California Cooperative Extension.

971
00:50:55,025 --> 00:50:57,624
And earlier in the show, I spoke to Dr.

972
00:50:57,624 --> 00:51:01,255
Gary Judd, an entomologist from
British Columbia's Summerland

973
00:51:01,265 --> 00:51:03,265
Research and Development Center.

974
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,170
So if you missed part of the
show and you want to listen

975
00:51:06,170 --> 00:51:08,670
again, just go to orchardpeople.

976
00:51:08,700 --> 00:51:14,010
com slash network where you can access
this episode and all the other episodes

977
00:51:14,010 --> 00:51:18,029
that we've done about fruit trees,
food forests, and permaculture gardens.

978
00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:21,159
And while you're on the site,
do sign up for my monthly

979
00:51:21,159 --> 00:51:22,299
newsletter at orchardpeople.

980
00:51:22,830 --> 00:51:23,220
com.

981
00:51:23,350 --> 00:51:25,910
And I'll remind you about
upcoming podcasts, and you'll get

982
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:29,860
access to lots of free content,
including articles, interviews,

983
00:51:29,860 --> 00:51:31,430
eBooks, and all sorts of stuff.

984
00:51:32,070 --> 00:51:36,240
Tune in to the show again next month,
and we will have more great guests.

985
00:51:36,779 --> 00:51:39,550
You're listening to the
Urban Forestry Radio Show.

986
00:51:39,810 --> 00:51:43,820
I'm Susan Poizner from the fruit tree
care training website, OrchardPeople.

987
00:51:44,410 --> 00:51:47,860
com, and I look forward
to seeing you next month.

988
00:52:03,390 --> 00:52:06,290
If you want to learn more about
the Community Orchard Network.

989
00:52:06,570 --> 00:52:11,530
I've created a page on my website where
you can find out lots more information and

990
00:52:11,530 --> 00:52:13,570
learn how to sign up for our newsletter.

991
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:16,700
Just visit www.

992
00:52:16,820 --> 00:52:17,370
orchardpeople.

993
00:52:18,179 --> 00:52:23,459
com slash network and you can read
our frequently asked questions

994
00:52:23,739 --> 00:52:27,190
and check out the free webinars
and podcasts that we've recorded.

995
00:52:28,235 --> 00:52:31,345
Tune in next month and you'll meet
some more great guests and you'll

996
00:52:31,345 --> 00:52:34,775
learn more about fruit trees,
permaculture, and forest gardens.

997
00:52:35,625 --> 00:52:39,555
Our show goes out on the last
Tuesday of every month at 1 PM.

998
00:52:39,655 --> 00:52:40,524
Eastern time.

999
00:52:41,475 --> 00:52:42,715
I'm Susan Poizner.

1000
00:52:43,005 --> 00:52:45,995
Thanks for tuning in and
I'll see you next time.

1001
00:52:55,755 --> 00:52:58,435
Thank you for listening
to the Urban Forestry

1002
00:52:58,435 --> 00:53:00,215
Radio Show with your host,

1003
00:53:00,215 --> 00:53:05,604
Susan Poizner, right here
on Reality Radio 101.