Rob Hess

Show Notes

CONTENT WARNING: Trauma, Suicide.
Intro: Do you know who your allies are? Boz is torqued. How big is the pie anyway?
Let Me Run This By You: Vulnerability on Clubhouse
Interview:  We talk to Rob Hess about making ice cream in Michigan, suffering a huge trauma in high school, getting cut in his second year, feeling safe with Phyllis Griffin, when Carey Peters saved Rob's life, living alone in a rural Michigan cabin, writing screenplays, making films, finding human connectivity through ice cream, finding healing through the podcast, being told he was the next John Malkovich, Don Ilko, Wallace Shawn, thought experiments.

FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
sworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? So I just

Speaker 2: (00:34)
Obsessed with this idea of like, who you think are going to be allies aren't allies and who you've made our allies, our allies. I am. So it is my own making in my head that certain people should be loyal and other people shouldn't be loyal. Right. So, but that's not how the world works. I'm realizing because I think someone should be my ally. Does it mean they give two about me or, or just because I think someone is snarky and maybe they hate me. Doesn't mean they're not going to be an ally. So, okay. So at this point in the conversation, boss tells a story that we really can't air on the podcast, unfortunately, but we had a conversation afterward that we thought was worthwhile to share. So you're just going to have to know that things are going to be a bit out of context. And I'm sorry for that, but I hope you enjoy the conversation that follows in any case.

Speaker 2: (01:36)
Okay. Okay. So what, one of the pervasive myths and I also suffer from the delusion of this myth. It's so it must just be hardwired. Okay. Is the pie is very small. There's very few pieces. Keep everybody out of your pie. Okay. Which yeah, if you just think about it, like completely in a base way. Yeah. There's only so many berries. There's only so much elk. I get it, but we're not foraging for berries and we're not hunting elk. We're talking about a multi-billion dollar business that has tons and tons and tons of opportunities in which is always looking for the next best thing. And a rising tide lifts all boats. And if you extend yourself to people who are lower than you on the food chain, it only helps you. It never hurts you. I agree. A hundred percent. And then on the base level, especially as former therapists, the is so transparent and we will keep all of this in the is so transparent that it's like, I, you are not, I want to always say to people and except it sounds like I'm being a huge narcissist, but it's like, I want to say to people, you are talking to someone who studied human brain and emotions for years and worked with some of the biggest sort of sociopath and gang members like weird.

Speaker 3: (03:00)
I know what's happening here. Let's cut the. Just say to me, I don't feel ready to share my resources. Now look, will that hurt my feelings? Absolutely. But will it make me insane? No. Right, right. Yeah. Just don't share resources. Just say, I'm not going to share my research. Don't say let's zoom.

Speaker 2: (03:21)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, okay. So then the next thing that occurs to me is like this whole thing about California versus, okay. So we left California for a variety of reasons, but one of the reasons that it's really sticks with me is we were so tired of this fakery around kumbaya, this fake kumbaya stuff. It was always like the, it was always the people who told you that they were pacifists that were like gonna definitely Shiv you.

Speaker 2: (03:57)
And it was always the people who preach, you know, inclusivity and whatever who were so judgmental. And it was just so disavowed where in other places, and it's not like, I believe in the whole thing of people tell you, like it is in New York and people don't tell you, it's not really binary like that. It's just that you do encounter people who are more willing to say, like giving the example of Bella. It can telling Eric later, I just didn't want you in my play. Like I could tell you something else I could tell you. Oh, it was really tough to make the decision. I could tell you, you know, you were really great, but somebody else, but that's the truth of it is, and you came to me for the truth. So I'm going to tell you the truth. I did not want you in my play. And I think it would be hard to say I'm not ready to share my resources, but it wouldn't be hard to say. I wish I had time to talk to you, but I don't.

Speaker 3: (04:51)
Oh,

Speaker 2: (04:53)
I, and I guess it's not entirely true that the pie is infinite. I guess that's not a good way to say it, but, uh, what is true is that if you, okay, so maybe there's only five spots for writers that are in her demographic, whatever that is. And so maybe she doesn't, she doesn't want you to get her spot. Okay. Right. But there's more than five spots for something else about you. There's, you know what I'm saying? Like what if she even said she, yeah. What if she had even said to you, well, I don't know if you're willing to do this, but there's a lot of, you know, writing assistant positions open right now in, uh, you know, San Diego someplace that you don't want to, you know, but like, Hey, if I heard about this one opportunity, it just would take so little. Right. It would just take so little.

Speaker 3: (05:49)
And I think the thing that, that hurt that is frustrating the most is it's transparent. But I think that I don't, I think that that comes from having a very unique set of circumstances, like being an emotionally neglected child and then being, um, someone who's co-dependent and then being a therapist, I'm like, dude, this is like, this is like a no brainer what's going on here. Although you did open it up to, like, there was a little bit, that's the thing too, is there's a TV side dash or maybe not. So side, dash of passive aggressiveness that I, I, I noticed, I only noticed that part later, what I noticed in the, in the, the, the, the, during the interaction with people like this is that something feels off and like, and it feels like a waste of time. It debts, it immediately feels like a waste of time. Like, like the manager that we met with where it was like immediately, you're like, something is not legit. Something's off here. And I can't pretend that it's not off because I've, I could, but that, that leads to depression and anxiety. And I can't live like that anymore. So, but yeah, sort of stuck on the phone, like, okay, here we go.

Speaker 2: (07:08)
Yeah. And it goes back to hate hazing. So we can assume that this person has really felt either really had to, or at least felt like she had to claw her way from the very bottom. And sh and people did this kind of stuff to her, so she wants to do it to you. Okay. And then there's the thing of what I call the I'm closing my eyes. So you can't see me way approach to life, which I always was saying, like, people who put totally crazy stuff on the internet and, and then they're like running for office or that, and they have, and they think that if they just deleted the tweet or that it's gone, it's just a very, um, in a way it's kind of, I was going to say, sweet, that's not the right word, but there's something kind of awe about it. That when somebody thinks that they're concealing the fact that they're,

Speaker 3: (08:05)
But we don't, and this goes to a bigger thing of like the human race is we don't understand the imprint that we are leaving with every action we take myself included. There are, we are leaving imprints into the universe. I technically feel like this. And they matter. And they, and they add up or they don't, but like they they're there. And so it's like, we leave these chem trails everywhere we go emotionally. And it's like, yeah, people see it. People feel it. It's interesting. Cause it's actors, you think they'd be better at it. Actors are the worst. Like you're like, so that was an interesting, I was just thinking about that. Cause I was like, Oh, okay. And that is how a lot of networking stuff goes and, and, uh, goes back to just because someone is of your, your sexual preference, your, your, um, identity, your background does not make them an ally. I it's so interesting. Woman, whatever, whatever, whatever you, whatever I think is going on with people that is going to bind them to me in a positive way, I'm making that up.

Speaker 2: (09:20)
I'm making that up. It's not real. Oh, well, so let's unpack it a little bit. So you, is it, is it just simply that it's a wish, or do you have other reasons to think that a person who fits tick certain boxes would be your ally

Speaker 3: (09:40)
Variants of the narrative that come join us? If you're one of us and then trying to join, and then being told you're not enough of this. So especially being half Latina, half, not joining organizations that are, and look, I'm saying, I pass as a white person, I have privilege. I get, I am work. That is something that is on my radar and I'm, but the truth is that I am half of this thing and I'm half of this other thing. So I have gone to organizations that are like, we want to, it's so tricky. We want to embrace all people of the, you know, the, the spectrum of, of, uh, what is it, Latini that or whatever we, we, and that, and I show up and they're like, what the are you doing here? Basically? You know, like you, you look white and you don't, you're not fluent in Spanish. And then

Speaker 2: (10:36)
A part of me gets it. But a part of me is like, wait, potentially to say, everyone's welcome

Speaker 3: (10:40)
Of the, what is it? The diaspora that, is it everyone welcome? No, no, everyone is not welcome. And look, I'm not saying it has caused me, you know, heartbreak. Like I'll never recover, but it's, it's troubling. Yeah. But that is my experience. And then I think mixed with a wish you're right. Mixed with a wish to belong. Right. So together is like, my mind is blown when that just totally misses, you know, I'm like, Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: (11:10)
Oh also what let's let's imagine. And maybe this happened in the conversation and you just didn't share it with me, but let's imagine that this person had said to you, tell me what you've done so far. You know, tell me what you've done so far. Like this is a terrible comparative example, but it jumped into my head when my kids come to me and say, do you know where my blah-blah-blah is? I say, where have you looked so far? Cause I used to say, Oh, I dunno. And then I had, you know, do the whole thing with them. And then it turns out it was just some obvious place. And now I say, well, what, what have you done? And I can, and I can extrapolate that to more complex situations with them. Like when they're having a fight, what have you done to try to resolve this conflict before you're bringing me into it?

Speaker 2: (11:54)
So if, if what she felt, let's, let's say that what she felt was why are you coming for what I have? You've been at this for a lot less time than me, blah, blah, blah. She could've said, tell me what you have done to help yourself so far, because if you had said, well, you're my first phone call, then she could have said, all right, well, you have a lot of work to, do you have a lot of basic work to do before you can call somebody like me versus, well, I'm getting my masters. I've been doing this, I've mentored this many contests. I was a semi-finalist and two of them. I mean, if she had bothered to ask you that she would have known that you weren't, she was not your first phone call. She was your 1000 phones.

Speaker 3: (12:36)
Right. And I, I think that, yes, I think you're, and that's really good. Good

Speaker 2: (12:41)
To hear for when people come to me,

Speaker 3: (12:43)
Cause people come to me for like acting stuff or like, can I meet with your agent? And I'm like, what's going on in your life right now? Where are you at? And I think that that is super helpful. And it also, it also would have helped me feel that we are in a conversation together that matters. And also put an ed, put me on the spot in a good way to, to say, look, this is what I've done. And I, and I'm working my off and I just, I need a little boost. Can you boost, if not, if not, but like you're right. I think there's, I think there's a taking the time to ask the other person, what have you done and how can I be of service to get to the, or just don't take the meeting.

Speaker 2: (13:33)
Yes. And the other thing that's at play here is having to do, because I'm all about codependency these days. And for a last little while I have been it's all it's it's about this fear that you cannot establish a boundary because she might have also been thinking this person is just asking me for a job. I have the sense that a lot of people, that's their first reaction. You're gonna ask me to do a favor for you. When I barely have my footing, my footing, I barely have enough social capital or professional capital to get my own foot in the door, much less yours. Okay. So, but if that's the case that she could still have the conversation, if, if, if she wants, she could say, no, I am, I don't have the bandwidth for that. And she could say, yeah, let's talk. And then say, I see what you're really asking me for is an entree to my agency.

Speaker 2: (14:29)
Um, and yes, I do have a great agent, but I feel that it would be very bad for my reputation to offer that person to you because I don't really know you very well. That would be really good. That would be very honest. And then you'd be like, Oh yeah, I could see how you would feel that way. I haven't read any of my work. We only know each other a little bit. Like you have any reason to think you have every reason to think it would hurt you to help me instead of that, it would help you to help me. Right.

Speaker 3: (14:57)
Right. That makes sense too. Yeah. I think it's the art so, well, my husband miles is doing all this reading on the art of negotiation and the hostage negotiations just, we're just interested in like how that goes and how to approach hard conversations. I mean, hostage conversations are hard copies apparently, but like even salary negotiations and stuff like that, it's tricky stuff. And it, it, I think in some ways being empathic or, and then borderline and into codependency is not helpful in these, in these, um, interactions with people and just day-to-day negotiation. Sometimes it is helpful, but sometimes it's bad. And so that's why a lot of times, you know, people say, go into the negotiation with the confidence of a mediocre white dude and khakis, because it's like, they don't have that empathy for, they haven't had to develop that, you know, because they don't have to, they could just walk in and be, and people, they must know what they're doing.

Speaker 3: (16:02)
So it's just, it's such an interesting, it's an interesting period of like figuring out like, okay, what, and, and some things are just going to be a waste of time or seem like a waste of time and maybe something. And the other thing that I'm fully aware of is that maybe down the line, this person is going to help me in a way that I would never expect. That's the other part of this is that down the line, if I really believe nothing is for not then down the line, something could happen. But in the moment, I'll tell you, it just felt like a sh a small, like, what the.

Speaker 2: (16:38)
Right. Well, and then you're getting into like, what all of your, um, unconscious interpretations are, which is that because her, you know, because she behaved X, Y, and Z way, that means that she thinks you're crap or that she will never help you. And you, you, you don't know really the answer to all that, but I will say that when it comes to this kind of thing, everybody, and we talked about this, about the theater school, part of what gets established and perpetuated as this culture of fear. And like, because it's true, we are trying to enter into a business that millions of people want to enter into. And there are not millions of jobs. That's true. That's, that's true. It's not like if I said to you, I want to get into real estate. And it's like, well, literally anybody can study for their series seven exam and get their real estate license, like it's wide open market for you.

Speaker 2: (17:30)
Um, so I understand why this is a little bit more cagey, but another thing that somebody could always do that would be no skin off their teeth and would be honest and truthful without offering anybody help is to say, I'll tell you exactly what I did. I took this class. And then I talked to this person about how to get resume together. And then I submitted my writing sample to these three writing teachers. And then I applied for 17 internships. And then I applied for 100, uh, screenwriting competitions. And then my first entry came after I was six years into to it. You know, like what, what's wrong with that? How, yeah, that's something you could literally just post on your, you could have, or you could have, I feel a lot of people come to you with this. You could have a website and you could say, here's my story. And then when somebody asks you, you can say, go to my website and read my story. Like, there's just so many ways of handling this problem that don't require you to make the other person feel badly about themselves or to be hostile in any kind of way passive or otherwise.

Speaker 3: (18:32)
Yeah. And, and, and I think it, and then the other deeper thing is that, you know, we are told, I think in play of this is for me anyway, is that as women, you know, you, you, you, Oh, there's so much. Like, you have to be nice without being rude. You have to be this. You have to be that there's not enough. Especially in Hollywood, you know, there there's there, the pie is even smaller for women. The pie is even smaller for women that don't look a certain way, the pies. So I think we tell ourselves the pie and it's two things are true that we are told messages that are, but they're, they're, they're true in some way, they're. And yet the mat, like we always talk about the mass delusion and the systemic believing of this garbage then perpetuates the garbage. Right. So if you're a trailblazer, if you're, it's a rough,

Speaker 4: (19:23)
It's a rough road. [inaudible] so there's always that. Yeah. How are you, what's going on? Anything, uh,

Speaker 2: (19:44)
I let's see here. Um, I kind of wanted to talk to you about vulnerability because vulnerability has become a little bit of a buzz word. Um, which to me just means that people are talking about it, which is a great thing. And I think, um, you know, Brenae Brown did a huge service in terms of like really taking the concept of shame and making it something that's widely accessible to everybody, to, to ponder for themselves about their own shame. Um, as you know, I've been really a clubhouse rat. I'm going to call myself, sticking around clubhouse all the time. And one, I participated in this room that I was really, really drawn to, but they were doing, um, it was basically like improv, but it was this sort of improv that had an implied. Maybe it was even explicit. If you look at the description of this, I didn't, I didn't happen to read it, but this thing about we're doing this improv, and I don't even want to go so far as to say that they thought it was going to be therapeutic, but there was this tone about how they were conducting the improv.

Speaker 2: (21:01)
That was really very warm and welcoming. And like, how did, I mean, to say, I could tell that the leaders of this room were taking great care about people's state of being, you know, it wasn't just like, let's just play improv and you're either in or you're out. It was like, there was some things sort of touchy feely about it.

Speaker 3: (21:22)
It was like mindful improv, like curated, mindful imprint.

Speaker 2: (21:26)
Yes. And at one point it turned to, um, everybody was inhabiting of a younger version of themselves. Everybody was encouraged to be, and they didn't say specifically, like under the age of 15, but everybody was sort of going in and then you had to introduce yourself and then say how old you were. Right. And then they were all doing this improv as basically like their inner child. Right. Well, I didn't leave the room, but I was so afraid of, of having anything to do with this. And it was actually at the very beginning of, you know, I've only been on it for a week, but this was on maybe like day two. So I also was not familiar with speaking in rooms and they kept pushing the button, loved, like inviting me to be a speaker. And I kept saying, not right now, not right now. Right. Not right now. I was terrified, terrified at the thought of doing this. And other people shared very, very intense, deep, personal things. And I could see our, I could sense how everybody was benefiting from it. And it was this shared intimacy. And I was, I just, all I could think to myself was no way in hell, would I ever be my real self as a child in front of anybody? Strangers, my husband, my best friend, like nobody. So I've just been puzzling for the last week about like, okay, well, so what's, so why what's, what's the big deal? Like I, and I don't, I'm no farther to understanding it now than I was when I started pondering it a week ago. It just, it feels like a third rail for some reason, if yes, exactly like that,

Speaker 3: (23:27)
Not die, like, cause I know we're not really afraid of death, but you would see to, it would be a death by humiliation or death by death by, by, um, shame, death, but like, uh, annihilation. Right?

Speaker 2: (23:44)
Yeah. I think it must have something to do with, um, how hard I work consciously and unconsciously to separate too, to be a different person than I feel like I really am on the inside, which is, you know, I feel like I'm the special worm. I feel like I'm this horrible person that nobody could ever love. But, but I, but intellectually, I don't agree with that. So I'm always trying to work against that. So I'm always trying to deny like my, my essential rotten core that I feel that I have, I'm like trying to protect my rotten core from everybody and from myself. And so something about being vulnerable enough to, and some people were playing themselves at 12 and some people were playing themselves when they're, pre-verbal like it ran the, ran the gamut and both were equally frightening to me being myself at 12, being myself at three, they were also because when the, when the people who were doing the sort of the really young version of themselves, they were all talking about some, getting emotional. For me, they're all talking about something they like to play or like their favorite tool. And I,

Speaker 3: (24:59)
You didn't have it. You can't remember you can't. Right, right.

Speaker 2: (25:05)
No, I have no idea what that would even be. Yeah. I think that's probably what it was scary about. It was like, I, a child, I was not a child that was never not in trouble.

Speaker 3: (25:14)
Right. So, so this, this is making perfect sense because beans, you were probably, when those desires started sprouting out, they were bashed back in you weren't. So how many times do you get bashed before you're like, this, I'm never coming out again. A whack, you know, in real life, a kid doesn't do that kid. Doesn't keep poking their head out because it's the interest it's too scary. It's too. Um, it's like, it's like beyond scary it's it's Oh, it makes perfect sense. So like, it makes perfect sense to me why that would be so triggering in terms of, I mean, I, me too, like, I don't feel right. I feel like I would be scared and I might go along with it. Um, but I know the feeling of not, I think, I think I understand what you're talking about and I think it makes perfect sense. And also everyone is not brave at the same time. So like in the same ways, but I, yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know the was getting so deep on clubhouse. My gut.

Speaker 2: (26:30)
Yeah, man. I mean, it totally runs the gamut, but some of it is very deep [inaudible]

Speaker 4: (26:45)
We talked to Rob Hattie, who is a filmmaker, a writer. He creates all kinds of creative content and he's also an ice cream King. He owns an ice cream business and sells it. And I believe they deliver it now, especially during this pandemic era, um, Rob is so sweet and so open and I just totally enjoyed our conversation with him. So please welcome to the podcast. Rob heft,

Speaker 5: (27:18)
You look exactly the same. We just stepped back for, I love it. It's so nice to see both of your faces. I feel like a grandmother that you'd never call though. Behind you. Are you at your ice cream factory? I am. Yeah. This is the, um, well it looks like a factory now. This is what used to be the store. I'll kind of show you. I mean, it's like, it's a factory now, but that's kind of that whole thing. And that's our little soda fountain kind of action. So cute. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's, you know, we haven't had customers in here for, since March, right? So it's very like, uh, you know, a factory now, which is pretty funny. I didn't ever think I would be an ice cream factory, but here I am, people are buying it just in pints. Yeah, exactly. It's been actually, it's been one of the best things that's ever happened. I'm so distracted by loving seeing you guys right now.

Speaker 5: (28:27)
This is going to be a really podcast because I'm just gonna be like, Oh, look at you too. Really love your glasses glasses. Um, there's a place in like Ann Arbor is like the university of Michigan town, like near like one town over where, from where I live. Uh, there's a place called C there S in Chicago. Yeah. As well. Yeah. I love that place. Like all the coolest glasses and like my face is a weird glasses face, but they made me feel like I got very cool glasses. So thank you. I appreciate that. So, Rob, congratulations. You survived theater school.

Speaker 5: (29:12)
They say you live to tell the tale, but how long were you there? I was there for two years. I got cut after sophomore year. Okay. Was that like a devastation or what? Um, I mean, yeah, off and on kind of parts of it for a long time. I think, um, it's my theater school journey. Like I had other things going on outside of theater school while I was there. So I had pretty gnarly personal stuff that I was also dealing with. Well, not actually dealing with just kind of, I think my body was getting ready to deal with it. Um, so it was all kind of wrapped up in the same, like burrito of trauma, you know what I mean? Um, you know, just to start off with trauma burritos,

Speaker 6: (30:03)
I mean, I don't love it, but I love the analogy. Yeah,

Speaker 5: (30:07)
Yeah. I get it. I get it. Yeah. So it was, um, yeah, it was cut after sophomore year. The weird thing was, and I'm happy to talk about the trauma burrito. Like let's pull apart the lettuce and the beans and the rice of all that, for sure. But, um, the, um, yeah, w w when I was cut, I was living in Evanston with some friends for the summer, and I had done the, like, you know, stupid college kid thing of like, who needs to forward addresses for mail. Um, and so I never got my like letter that said either way, it sounds like checking in with people, like, did you get cut? And they're like, Oh yeah, so-and-so got cut. And so-and-so got cut. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I think it was like a couple of weeks before school started that I finally got a call, like I was calling the theater school and like, nobody wanted to talk to me about it.

Speaker 5: (30:55)
Cause they were like, Oh, we got to tell this kid, like, do you know, face over the phone or whatever. Um, at least that's how I interpret it. And then, um, yeah, I got a call from Don Elko, um, to, you know, to like tell me what the deal was. And, you know, I never found Don to be like the most, um, you know, sort of humane. He wasn't, it wasn't terribly concerned with like humaneness in dealing with me. I don't think he had some great warmth than some whatever, but, um, he was really nice about it. And, um, we had a very long conversation and he was just like, you know, we had a long talk about you in these reviews. He's like, I'm not really supposed to tell you this stuff, but, um, like we talked about you for a couple hours.

Speaker 5: (31:39)
I mean, who knows, like where are they running game on me? They could have been, who knows. I appreciated it at the time. And he was like, uh, ultimately we feel like you're great, you've got great whatever potential, but, um, your, we don't know how to reach you. Like, we don't know where what's going on with you. And so they were like, you're welcome to like, do play writing. Like we think play writing would be great for you. We think, you know, stage management theater studies will be awesome. And I was just like, no, that's not really what I signed up for. You know? Um, so yeah, so that was kind of where it was left.

Speaker 6: (32:16)
But did you, did, did it make sense for you? Did it resonate? The things that he was saying, could you see what they were talking about?

Speaker 5: (32:24)
Yeah. Cause I didn't know where I was and I think, you know, everything in my body was telling me, like, you got stuff going on, bro. Like things are happening. So my sort of theater school story is like, so my senior year of school, so I'm from Michigan. And I grew up in like some small town of Highland. Um, but I went to this like Catholic, you know, college prep school, which is actually where Carrie Peters went, who was also in our year two. Um, and so, uh, my senior year of high school, I was in a car accident. I was the driver and I was, um, we couldn't stop for a stop sign. And so we had to run the stop sign and we were broadsided by a full-sized van doing like 55 miles an hour. And the, my two best friends who were in the backseat, they were thrown from the car and they died in my arms that night.

Speaker 5: (33:18)
Um, and so I was post that in the way that, you know, my body reacted is I realized now I didn't have feelings for two full years or more. Um, I, and everybody was like, Whoa, how are you doing? Like, are you like, are you gonna like start a crazy drug habit? Are you just gonna fall apart? And I was like, I don't know. I'm like the lead in the school play, we were doing West side story. And like, that was like a great community for me. And, um, I just was like, no, if anything, I felt responsibility to live on for my friends who were dead. And for the other friend that had been injured in the car. And so I was like, no, that's not what I'm doing. And I didn't have any emotions anyways. And I didn't know. And I didn't know anybody who'd been through something like that.

Speaker 5: (34:12)
And I didn't know anybody who'd gone to see therapists. I didn't know any of that stuff. So for me, I was just like, I'm just going to keep doing it. And so, um, I, yeah, when I was thinking about college, like, I don't know. I think everybody was like, it's gravy where like I was kind of Harry Potter. I was the boy who lived, you know, so everybody was just like, cool. Yeah. Do whatever you want to do. And I got the, um, I got the brochure from the DePaul marketing department, which was like point those days. Like, yeah. I mean, I, the way I read the brochure was just like broad, don't go here. Like you can't handle it like that. What I read it as it was just like, if you want to be a serious actor. Sure. If you want no kid gloves, you know that you want to Paul.

Speaker 5: (34:59)
Yeah, man, no kid gloves. Let's do I want to be an actor right now? Like, um, and I was like, okay, well, cool. I got to audition for this thing. And like, definitely like my drama teachers and stuff like that at school were like, maybe not DePaul. Like we haven't heard great things. And there had been someone there. Yeah. We had, there had been somebody who went there who came back. It was like the dryness Derby straight. Cause they like talk to the whole cast or whatever of the show. And they were like, don't go to DePaul. Like they were just like, go somewhere else, go somewhere. That's going to be fun, get a college. And I was like, you mean, get beaten up like a real actor would write, like, that's what I should do. Um, yeah. So they tried to scare me straight and I was like, hell no.

Speaker 5: (35:47)
Like also I was like, I love a challenge. So I was like, yeah, I'm going to go for this. I'm going to, like, I did a monologue from, I don't even know the play at all, of course, but it was like, everybody was like, don't do this monologue because it's like an old man reflecting back on his life and you'll never be able to bring that range to it. So I was like radical. So I did this, um, monologue from, I'm not rapport and I'm going to go for it. And um, I've never been to a big city before, so I was just like, yeah, let's, let's do it. Let's go to Chicago and try this thing out. So that was kind of like in the background, my entire DePaul experience was, you know, just insane, you know, trauma, grief, you know? And I think my body was just in shock really the whole time, because first year I felt, you know, fine numb, you know, things were okay.

Speaker 5: (36:39)
Um, second year things started to fall apart for me personally, I remember a lot of nights laying in my bed, in my, um, uh, apartment that I had with Danielle Marinelli and just feeling like I was full of these like blood and emotions. And I just had these little tiny pinpricks in my skin. So it was just barely seeping out. And all I wanted to do was just let everything out of me, but I didn't, you know what I mean? I had no context for this. So I was just, you know, you're like a 20 year old, so you're like, this is embarrassing. I'm ashamed of it. I'm probably guilty, you know, all those things. So yeah, DePaul was a weird time. It was like a transitional time. Right.

Speaker 3: (37:20)
Did, did anyone know that this had happened to you in, at DePaul?

Speaker 5: (37:26)
Um, I didn't want to, I'd kind of been treated. I've been kind of, um, you know, living through that, suddenly everything in my life was totally different. So my friends looked at me differently. My I just, every thing in your social status, changes around. People greet you with like eyes rimmed with tears and they're like, how are you? Like, you know, inside you're like, I'm 18 and I just want to disappear. Like I don't, you know, talk to the guy next door. So I didn't really want to bring it into DePaul with me. I don't think it wasn't a conscious decision. There was one time in a Phyllis's class and I'm like, I loved that class freshman year. Like how could you not? She's the goddess walking amongst us. Um, and I remember she was like, okay, you know, today we're gonna start getting into emotions.

Speaker 5: (38:18)
And I remember there was this little shoot of fear that was like, Oh. Like, no, I'm like, I might go haywire. I don't know what's going to happen. So I took Phyllis on a walk and was like, and I told Phyllis what had gone on. Um, cause I felt really safe with her. She was great. She was like, I got you. Don't worry about it. I will either tell people or not tell people if you don't want me to, but I will keep an eye out for you if you start going off the rails. So she was the only one that knew. Wow,

Speaker 2: (38:47)
Well that's, that makes sense that, that, you know, voice class was where most people cried, but all of the physical stuff we did, I would imagine all of it would be, um, potentially an opportunity to like be reliving some of that trauma. So do you think that you were, uh, do you think that you were just closed off you weren't ready to deal with it, so you were closed off to it, so that kind of, it didn't really come out in, in the work and it waited until you were ready to deal with it.

Speaker 5: (39:21)
Yeah. The feeling I got was that my body literally just wouldn't let me access that it was like that feeling of shock when you first get burned and you don't feel it for a second or you like break your leg, you don't feel it for a second. And you're like, this is weird that I feel like I should be hurting. And then it like kicks in. That was mama. Cause it kicked in for me, um, a while later. And it was, yeah, it was intense. So

Speaker 2: (39:48)
When it did kick in, what w what were you, what was happening in your life at that time?

Speaker 5: (39:54)
So it was, um, so it was by the way, thank you guys for being awesome. And, and talking about this and being interested. I just, like, I want to say too, like, this podcast has been amazing for me. Like, it's been such a great tool to sort of like revisit this time and it hasn't, um, it's a time that I've thought through a lot, but I only had myself to pair it to. Right. So it's so great. I mean, it's horrifying to hear what other people went through, especially your stories and stuff. I feel so much kinship with you guys because of that. Um, and so I just want to say thank you for being awesome. And I just want you to know, like, this is, this is it's, the podcast has affected me personally greatly, so I appreciate what you're doing. Awesome. So, um, to your questions, when did it kick in and what did it look like?

Speaker 5: (40:45)
Um, it was, so I said after I was living in Evanston, got cut. And then I was like, I don't really want to leave Chicago. Um, the town that I had grown up in was, um, there were lots of, I felt at the time that there were a lot of rumors about me and there were people who did not like me in my hometown because these boys had died and I was the person responsible. I wasn't drinking. I wasn't anything. It was just a, it was like a traffic sign that I missed. Um, but I didn't want to go back to Highland. Um, so I got an appointment apartment, like up in like the, um, like Boystown area. And, um, it was like the best thing about that apartment all the time. Like two blocks from the Lake, like, was this like college kids doing living there?

Speaker 5: (41:35)
It was amazing. It was so good. And, uh, so I was living there and then it was like, okay, I'm going to take some classes. Um, so I took classes that first, like trimester or whatever, and I went home for, um, uh, like the holiday break or whatever. And it was, I think the day after Christmas, or a couple days after Christmas, I was kind of that like super quiet, chill time at home. Um, and everybody was gone for the day and, you know, I was just like at home chilling, like a total like pajamas kind of moment. And, um, I remember I went to like, I don't know, slice a bagel or something. And I pulled out the knife drawer and I was like, Whoa, you can slit your wrists with those knives. Like, wow, that's crazy. So I like shut the knife drawer.

Speaker 5: (42:22)
And I was like, never look at knives again. Okay. And then like, I like looked at where the toaster was plugged in and I was like, Oh, you could put your finger in that socket and kill yourself. And I was like, ah, microwave, you can put your head into microwave and kill yourself. You can put your head in the oven. And it's like, my brain wasn't responsible for my thoughts. It was, it just started taking over. And I was like, the only thing it could think of was everything. I looked at the different ways that it could kill you, that you could kill yourself. And I wasn't like, Hey, you know, death sounds great. Like, I would love to commit suicide right now. Like, it wasn't that I wasn't like, you know, it, wasn't walking around in like an emo funk. You ideally idealizing it or anything.

Speaker 5: (43:05)
Um, I literally, wasn't in control of my brain for the first time ever. And I was just freaked out and I didn't know what to do. Nobody was home. I couldn't talk, you know, like cell phones or anything at the time. So I was just like freaked out. Um, and I kind of spent the day like this. I think I like took a bath and just try to get away from everything. And I was like, ah, can you can drown yourself? Like, there's just no place that didn't have something that you could use to kill yourself. Um, and so I remember laying in bed underneath the covers and I called, um, Carrie Peters, who I was good friends with at the time. And, um, cause I'd given her a ride back home for the holidays. I don't know why, or maybe she called me. I think she called me because it felt so angelic that kind of Holy crap.

Speaker 5: (43:51)
I can't believe you're calling right now. And, um, so I believe she called me and I was just like freaking out. Like, I don't know. Like I just want to, like, I just keep thinking of all the different ways that I can kill myself. I don't want to. And thank God. I mean, Carrie Peters saved my life. Um, she was like, hang on, I know a therapist I'm gonna call them. And she was like, you're safe, right where you are, don't move a muscle. I want you to think about everybody who loves you. I want you to think about like all the people, you know, in your life that love you and support you, you are a hundred percent safe. Do not go anywhere. Cause I'm calling you back in three minutes and if you've moved, I'll be like mad. And so, um, she called a therapist in Chicago. She was like, I called a therapist. They want to see you tomorrow at two. Um, can you get to Chicago safely? Do you need to, do you need a ride? What do you need? Um, and so yeah, she set me up with an appointment. I drove myself to Chicago the next day.

Speaker 6: (44:49)
That's incredible. That's incredible. I mean, it just is such a Testament to a lot of things, but the one thing is that, you know, a connection that you had with somebody who really cared at the right moment at the right time, isn't that amazing. And how wonderful that you were able to, you know, tell her, tell someone what was going on.

Speaker 5: (45:14)
Yeah. I mean, I didn't, I literally did not know anybody who had dealt with this before, you know, so it was another experience of me feeling, you know, ostracized or alone or kicked out a little bit, you know, which is, I mean, I know now that's a common trauma effect. Right. Um, and yeah, and I mean, thank God like she, yeah. Carrie Peters saved my life. I will say it until the day I die. I've told her like she kicked in like hardcore and I don't even, you know what I mean? I don't know if it was even out of the norm for her or something, but like, yeah, she happened, she called at the right moment. I'm almost positive. She called me. And um, yeah, so that really started my, so I saw that therapist and that therapist was literally like, you need to not do school.

Speaker 5: (46:02)
Like we need you in here every day. Um, and like, I need to see you for a couple hours a day and we're going to get your meds. Right. Like we're going to focus on this super, super hard. Um, and yeah. So thank God she did. So that was like, what would have been, I guess like middle of my junior year was just me like walking through Chicago, being like, I guess my job is therapy now. Like I, you know, I was trying to deal with that. And you know, in like, you know, first blushes with what th what depression feels like, what's depression feels like, what does mania feel? Like all these things where it's like, I hadn't had emotions from 17 to 19 or 20 or whatever it was. And suddenly I am a wash in all the emotions, you know what I mean? Um, so that was, that was sort of, that, that was the end of, that was in the middle of my June, what would have been my junior year. Wow.

Speaker 6: (46:57)
But you went on to finish college elsewhere,

Speaker 5: (47:01)
Right? No, no. So what I did is Nope. So what I did is I hung out in Chicago for like, until like the summer, basically that junior year, what would've been my, you know, but somewhere between junior and senior year, and then Carrie and I, who were friends still, you know, and like hanging out buds all the time. Um, we, uh, took a trip to go to my like cabin, my family's cabin in like Northern Michigan. And like, I hadn't been there since I was a kid. And it's just like little cabin in the middle of the woods, no running water, no electricity, no phone. Like, but I, it was, it had been important to me growing up and I needed to get away from like the concrete of the city. It just felt, I felt so smothered and like, you know, all these things.

Speaker 5: (47:44)
So we went there, visited, and I came back the next week to Chicago and I called my parents and I was just like, I think I just need to go to the cabin. Like I need to go live there. And they were like, that sounds sketchy. And I was like, here's the deal? I will fix the place up. Like, I will renovate it top to bottom. And my dad was like, that sounds great. He understood the, like, you need a project. You want to work with your hands. Like whatever. So I literally, so I moved from like, it was, uh, August through October of that year, I like bought a portable typewriter. I've always been a writer since I was a little kid and I bought a portable typewriter. I stole some books from the Chicago public library. That meant a lot to me. Like the Raymond Carver short stories, all kinds of like American literary classics.

Speaker 5: (48:34)
But I was like, I don't care. I'm never come back. Life doesn't mean anything anyways. Like there's like with me and moved up there. And, um, yeah, I lived without running water, electricity, not seeing anybody like real Walden, you know, for, um, about three months just kind of rebuilding my life. And in the back of my brain was, I was so tired of the ups and downs of this, that there was a really misguided thought in the back of my brain that said, you're going to go up there and you're going to get yourself off of any depressants or you're going to kill yourself. And that will be the perfect place to kill yourself. Um, so I went there and it was like, yeah, I, like I said, I, I would go weeks without seeing a person. And it was just like diet Coke and cigarettes and playing guitar and writing short stories and sanding a floor by hand, um, for weeks at a time.

Speaker 5: (49:27)
Um, and, uh, yeah, towards the end of it, I was like, okay, now's the time? Like, you're either. I mean, I didn't, you know, I didn't have a really, I didn't feel at the time, like I had a way back into society. Like I'm not, I didn't feel like I wanted to go live with my parents. Like, I didn't really know a place to live. Like, you know what I mean? I just literally felt like, so I didn't have any structure around me. I didn't feel like at the time, you know, I'm, I'm sure from the outside, my parents were doing everything they could to give me a sense of structure. Right. Um, but, uh, so yeah, so I was like, okay, you're gonna, you know, today's the day you're going to think about it. Like you're gonna kill yourself and get it over with, um, because you just, what else are you going to do?

Speaker 5: (50:08)
And you heard everybody, you know, these things that are going through my mind were like, you're a cancer, you've killed people, like all of these things. And I just was so, you know, it was on that low end of that manic depressive cycle. Right. And so, um, yeah, so I was like fully prepped to do it. And the, that saved me. You know, the thing that popped into my brain was I saw all of these short stories that I had written in this typewriter. And I was just like, but I love those. Like, but I, that I want to do more of that and communicate more with people and that's important and that's worth being alive for, um, and if you're dead, you can't make that anymore. And I just like backed away from the Exacto set and was like, Oh. Like, ah, that was terrible. You know? Um, but that was the moment where I was like, okay, we start climbing the Hill again.

Speaker 2: (51:02)
Wow. Have you written this screenplay about, about this experience?

Speaker 5: (51:07)
No. I mean, I think it went into a lot of screenplays, you know what I mean? Like, not that specific thing, but, um, yeah, after that, I, I was, you know, living in Ann Arbor. Um, and I had a filmmaking partner who was a friend of mine who had gone to Northwestern. Um, and we started, I started teaching myself how to make movies and like, because I started writing screenplays and then I was like, yeah, but then they come out and the shots are wrong, you know what I mean? Or the performances aren't great or whatever. So I was like, okay, well now I think you should learn how to direct a movie. So it's like, okay, so I'm going to write this and I'm going to direct it. And I'd be like, yeah, but then the DP doesn't get the right thing or it's not the right color temperature, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5: (51:50)
So I was like, now you need to figure out how to shoot this. And then I was like, okay. But then the edit sucks. So now you have to go, you have to figure out how to edit, you know what I mean? So it just, I just, yeah. So I just sort of taught myself, um, all of those positions, um, and yeah. Started making like independent, um, shorts and feature films, um, with my production partner. Um, and, uh, yeah, I did that for, I don't know, 12 years, something like that. I'm not sure, but, you know, we ended up with a couple of feature films that, you know, I was proud of at the time perspective changes a little bit over time, you know, but you said goodbye to filmmaking or just you've put it on pause. Yeah. I don't think I said goodbye to it.

Speaker 5: (52:37)
Um, I think it was a process like any artistic process, I guess, um, of really refining what was at the heart of why I was doing it. So, you know, at first it was like, Oh, I want to write these scenes to give people these thoughts. And then I was like, Oh, I want to create these emotions with people and you know, all of this stuff. And then it was like, Oh, I want to create this experience as well for the CA for the cast and for the crew that, you know, and so it was all these sort of things where like, okay, why are you really doing it? And, um, you know, I'm in ice cream now, which would seem to be a million miles away from that. Um, but for me, ice cream is like, I came to realize, so I was making feature films.

Speaker 5: (53:22)
And then I got a job at the university of Michigan where was basically the instructional assistant for the film program. So like they would, the professors would teach the kids, like, here's the theory of lighting a scene with three point lighting and then I'd be like, yes, but here's how guy Richie does it. And here's how this person does it. And I would like help them figure out how to make their movies and like loaning me equipment and stuff. And it was amazing. Um, and then I had a job after that at the university of Michigan, where I got to actually make videos for the university, which sounds drier than what you would imagine. But I had access to these like brilliant minds, like literally one of the instructors who I had like a major professor crush on was like creating a map of the universe, the very first map of the universe.

Speaker 5: (54:06)
He was like, one of the team of people that's doing this. Right. And when I asked him, like, does that seem insane? He was like, yeah. But there was a point in time when making a map of the world seemed impossible, you know, it's like, you know, so, um, uh, so I realized as like, as I started getting, making shorter and shorter movies and videos and started doing, you know, basically everything about it on my own from top to bottom, I realized like, Oh, you're, this is what we're doing here is really sequencing emotional responses to things. Right? So it's like, you introduce the main character. It's like, Oh, I like her because her eyebrows are like mine. And then it's like, Oh no, but what if, what if the car door gets hit as she's getting out? Like, Oh, she's saying, you know, and so it was like sequencing these emotional responses and ice.

Speaker 5: (54:55)
And I started making ice cream as like a stress reliever. Um, and then as I was like feeding it to people at farmer's markets and stuff, I started to realize they would just have these very big emotional responses to the ice cream. And I was like, Oh, I can do the same thing with ice cream, but I can bypass the brain completely. Right. Like it's ice cream food, just go straight to your heart. And so I would have people and I still do to this day where they, like, they hug me or they start laughing. I had one woman who like, she like started laughing and then she started crying and then she hugged me and she did a little dance and turned around and she was like, that took me right back to my grandmother's, um, mint patch. Like, I, I like thank you for giving me that moment.

Speaker 5: (55:39)
You know what I mean? And like, I mean, I get chills talking about it. Like, that's the kind of stuff where I'm like, I love ice cream. I love being improved because you can just bypass all the that keeps people feeling disconnected from each other. And you can give them like a real experience. You know what I mean? You could give them a real feeling and you're right there with them. And you can create a sense of connection with people, which was, I think what I was maybe always going for with movies, you know what I mean? Whereas like a movie kind of stays up on the screen and you kind of connect to it, you know, but you feel the intent of the creators with this. It's like, you can be right there and you're like, now try this flavor. Now try this other flavor and you can give people such a wow,

Speaker 6: (56:26)
That's beautiful. And what you are is a really, um, more, well-rounded more empathic Willy Wonka. He's a little creepy, but you're not as creepy, but the same like cats, what he wanted to do in that movie was like give people the adventure of a lifetime through delicious status.

Speaker 5: (56:49)
Totally. Yeah. So thank you for that. I appreciate that.

Speaker 6: (56:56)
About since you mentioned doing a little bit of working through of your own experience by listening to other people, what are some specific moments you've had or, or, or emotional, maybe not apifany, but realizations that you've had from listening to other people about their theater school experience.

Speaker 5: (57:18)
I think the emotional manipulation, like it was emotional on psychological manipulation of a group of folks who are very suggestible. Right. Um, and I think that's been both heartbreaking and reassuring to realize, you know, I, I think I didn't realize the structure of what was going on around me and like, you know, I mean, sure, yes, I've watched every cult documentary that's out there right now. Sure. I might be biased towards that, but there's the grounds of a cult, you know, like there's the grounds of cult think going on there. And I don't think anybody was trying to do that. I think it's, you know, it's, um, artists who want to get a certain thing from you at a time when maybe you're not totally ready to be there working inside of, you know, the hierarchy of faculty positions, which is a nightmare inside of itself to navigate.

Speaker 5: (58:20)
If you're a woman, you're a person of color, you're, whatever, that's all, you know, so you've got all of those things going on, plus sort of like, you know, uh, artistic fulfillment, personal fulfillment. And sometimes people are just not having a good day, just bad at their jobs, but it's like a pivotal moment for the students. You know what I mean? Um, so I think really it's been just hearing that, that emotional manipulation was going on for, for everybody. Like, um, it's caused me to think back to like what my like, reviews or like, you know, the warnings first year and then like, versus the warning second year and all that stuff, which is like hilarious. Cause I haven't like really thought about that stuff in forever. Um, but I remember is this going where you want it to go, by the way, I don't want to just like ramble and you know, not give you guys usable stuff.

Speaker 5: (59:15)
Okay, good. Um, but I remember after I remember in freshman year, so I David and I think both of you for sure, Gina, you were in my section, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I had David and like that class was super fun. Dude was like, you know, I mean, especially for like straight white guy, right. Like I'm sure David's, you know, I'm in David's pocket. Um, and you know, I like, you know, was the kind of kid who realized early on like, Oh, if you give teachers what they want, you get what you want. And they're like, it's fine. Like that's you just please people and move through it and it's going to be fine. Right. And then, you know, you come up against theater school where that like not be economy there. Um, right. And um, so David was, you know, super easy, um, for me, like it was just play and I was kind of realizing like, Oh, you've got a pretty active imagination.

Speaker 5: (01:00:07)
Your brain moves kind of fast. Like this isn't really a thing. Like dude wants you to be a squirrel for an hour. Great. Um, you know, and so I, um, so like my first year I remember like my, like, I don't know you had meetings with people. It wasn't automatically like a warning, I don't think. Or maybe it was. Um, but I remember meeting with David and I think this would have been like your like warning thing. And I didn't get like a warning. I got like sunshine up my. Like he was just like, you're the top school for sure. And he said, here are the next job. And I was just like.

Speaker 5: (01:00:52)
Yeah, dude. I was like, I mean, maybe he said, you remind me of John Malcovich 18 year old. Rob was just like, um, John Malcovich, you know, um, which is like insane and embarrassing to even say a loud, you know what I mean? But like that movie out of it, so that's crazy. Exactly, exactly. And I was like, that's me, I'm one of those 40 Malcovich is, um, so yeah, like that was intense. Oh. And then I saw John Malcovich at the Athenian room as I was walking by like a couple days later and I was like, real it's real it's John Malcovich is right there. He's having a, you know, a hero. So that was like the first year. And like, as I look at it, I'm like, okay, that's you don't say that to a person unless you're like chuffing them up. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5: (01:01:47)
Maybe he thought I needed something like that. Or maybe he was just a very high, it was like, this'll be fun. Let's tell the kid he's John Malcovich, you know, like, you know, it's the theater school. We don't know. Um, so that was the first year and I was just like, like, this is great. I'm John Malcovich now. Everything's cool. So then I went into sophomore year and like coming back to sophomore year, I was just darker, like as a person, I was like, I just felt heavier emotionally. I was like, I don't know quite what's going on. Um, I had Trudy for voice and Don Elko, which I think did you have done Elko too? That's when we were in the class. Okay.

Speaker 6: (01:02:29)
He hated my guts and that's okay. But it broke my heart, but yeah, he was brutal that guy sometimes.

Speaker 5: (01:02:35)
Yeah. And he was, um, I mean, I kind of liked him in that he was such a caricature of like a theater professor, because he was like, I just remember him being twisted into pretzel shapes. You would finish something and dude would grunts and you'd be like, Oh God, it's the grudge. You know, he would spend like, literally that's what my professor told me today was

Speaker 6: (01:03:00)
I just remember I was so jealous because he really liked Gina. He really liked Gina

Speaker 5: (01:03:07)
With good reason. Cause gene is amazing. Look at him having great tastes, Darnell. Um, but yeah, so my review with Don Yoko is wildly different. Um, at the time I I've always liked wearing baseball caps. Like it's fun hats. I don't know. Or my thing, I guess I just like, as a little kid, I would wear the weirdest on my head. And at the time I was wearing this baseball cap that I literally never thought about, but it was like a maroon tap and it had the words bland or the word bland on it and like gold lettering. I word it all the time because I lived in Wrigleyville and walked to school 30 minutes, like, you know, not a lot of showering going on in those days. And so I remember going in and he was like, Hmm. You know, I was like, Ugh, this is not off to a good start.

Speaker 5: (01:03:59)
Like it started with a grunt and he was like, we need to talk about your hat. And I was just like, what? Like I had prepped for this review being like, okay, well, if he mentions my object work, I'll say this. And if he mentions this, you know what I mean? Cause like we didn't talk about your hat and he's like, you know, we've, we've been talking about it and feel, it represents how you feel about yourself inside. And I was like, no, no I don't. Um, no, it's just my, like, it's just a, it's a hat. And um, I was like, I think it's funny because I was just sound like it's explaining my like theory about nineties headwear to the guy, you know? Like I was like, you know, basketball, hats. They just have all these graphics on them. I think this is funny.

Speaker 5: (01:04:47)
I was like, I don't see myself as bland. It's ironic. And he was like, no, it's not irony. It's a deeper issue for you. And I just remember being like, Oh my God. And like I knew Trudy Kessler did not like me. I don't know. She probably didn't even think about me. I felt like I was Trudy. Cussler just hated my guts. Cause she had said some, some gnarly to me in, um, rehearsal one night, like just out of the blue. So I was like, Oh, this is a Trudy, Don they'll go like, then I'm in the middle of, and this is not good. And so he was just like, yeah, I don't know what your problem is. But like we think it's the hats. Um, and what you need to work on is kind of everything. Like your emotions are weird. We don't know where those are going most of the time.

Speaker 5: (01:05:36)
Like, and I just remember it was like this, like, I didn't know what to act on other than the hat. Like there wasn't really a way forward. And so I was like, Ooh. So I remember I walked out of there and I remember my body feeling so hot and like eruptive. Right? Like it was just, I could feel things boiling inside of me. And I think I had sort of my first dissociative kind of break there in that moment. And I'm only thinking about it, you know, thinking back on it now because you know, I lived kind of towards the Lake from the theater school and I remember being like, I can't go anywhere where anyone knows me. I can't be seen like I'm wigged out and there's no place safe for me to go. So I went left and just kind of started walking West.

Speaker 5: (01:06:21)
And I don't really remember. I remember I sort of came to like an hour and a half later and I, and I was just thinking about the hat the whole time I came to like an hour and a half later in the hat was like in shreds in my hand. And I like ripped up the hat and I was somewhere I had never been before. I was like, uh, I guess I'll walk. So I remember I just threw the hat in the garbage and I was like, well, that's a done deal. And I will walk towards the Lake now and find home. So that was my warning. It was, it was intense. It, my intense, I think I just, I didn't, I didn't know how to process emotions. Right? Like my body was like shut down at that point. And I just didn't know, I didn't know how to do emotions. And so my body was like, we're going to crack, we're going to crack this a little bit open for you. And we're going to, you're going to feel some of these things. And I think my brain just separated a little bit, you know, so

Speaker 2: (01:07:18)
If we did a thought experiment and we tried to reimagine those first couple of years without the emotional manipulation, like knowing yourself as you know yourself going back in time, crawling back, what could somebody have said to you that would have led to you not feeling like you had to retraumatize yourself or experience a different type of trauma or just, you know, tread up your hat, but that instead it could have been something that would have impelled you to move forward and become a better actor.

Speaker 5: (01:07:57)
Yeah. So first of all, I love a thought experiment, so thank you. Uh, and also this is a great question. Um, so I'm, I'm hyped right now. This is great. Um, what, how could they have handled it differently in a different system? Um, I honestly don't know. I don't know. Um, second year had just been about play and if it wasn't, I mean, the, the way that I've described my college experience to folks is like combat group therapy. Um, it's very competitive and there's landmines everywhere. And yet you're also being told, like, you know, these are the things that are wrong with your insides kind of thing. Like it was, you know,

Speaker 6: (01:08:48)
You're outside and you're outside. It wasn't just that. So that's, I just, I think it's a double whammy for most people because we're being told that our body is our instrument and our instrument is faulty on the inside and the outside. Most of us never. Anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 5: (01:09:13)
And like, you know, say, I mean, saying that to anybody terrible saying it to women saying it to people of color saying it, you know what I mean? Not, I'm not that there was really, you know, they weren't real heavy on the people of color and the representation that's for sure at that time. Um, but they, um, yes, they, I once was told, I think it might, Trudy told me this, if I'm not mistaken, um, that I'll never be Brad Pitt's, but, uh, because I'm not attractive enough. And so I'll never get leading man roles. And so I should get used to that and not aim for that. Um, but I might get more sort of like character actor roles, like a Wallace Shawn type

Speaker 6: (01:09:56)
By the way. But 10 year old wants to be told, they look like Wallace, Sean, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 5: (01:10:05)
Now I'd be like, sweet. I look like, well, let's shop. This is amazing. But at the time, like the actors I really knew were like Leonardo DiCaprio, you know what I mean? Like I didn't really, you know, um, so that was, yeah, the body stuff is so insane what you would say to kids. But so I think how it could have maybe been handled differently in a different system would really be if second year was closer to what my experience of first year was, where if there was sort of less structure, less expectation for what level everyone would be at and meeting the students where they are not necessarily where you are expecting them to get or where you're maybe forecasting that you would like the students to be like, uh, not even experienced this at the university of Michigan. When I was in the film program, there's, um, a white washing in a funneling, a narrowing down that happens.

Speaker 5: (01:10:58)
So, you know, in the first year, even at the film program at the university of Michigan and certainly at DePaul, when I was there in both of those places, you know, they would have these classes that really open kids up. And I would see these first-year students do awesome work. And it was like personal experiences about their families and where they come from and like their narrative. And it was women. It was, you know what I mean? It was, I have regroup and, and people were like blossoming. And then by second year it was like, all of the women became producers because they could call for lunch. You know what I mean? And so if there was a woman who was like, I'm really into cinematography, like the boys would just take the cameras. Right. And there, and the system was designed to sort of narrow people down into what they thought this Hollywood model was at the time.

Speaker 5: (01:11:45)
Um, and I feel like DePaul was largely similar to that, um, where they started sort of saying like, Oh, well, we get that, you know, Rob has, we'll never be Brad Pitt. You know what I mean? And, but he doesn't have the stuff to be a Wallace Shawn. Um, so I think if it had been open to meeting students where they're at and, um, I mean, there's such a focus on sort of the you're, it's, it's an artistic field and it's an artistic endeavor and you're dealing with people who are artists, but then there's also sort of the business aspect of it. And that's a big part of it. Um, and I think not really contextualizing how those two things sit with each other and not, you know, um, I feel like they didn't do a good job of telling kids like this is the artistic part of it. This is the expression. This is the part that you will keep with you forever. Right. Um, but then this is also the business side of it. And those two things don't have to relate to each other in certain ways you can redefine how those things interact. So, um, I think that would've been really helpful. I mean, I, you know, and I, I think that takes care of the emotional, the emotional manipulation and all of that stuff, you know, does that answer your question? Does that, okay,

Speaker 6: (01:13:03)
Boss, I want to ask the same question of you knowing what you know now about

Speaker 5: (01:13:07)
Yourself and your experience,

Speaker 6: (01:13:09)
What, what might have been a better fit for you? So for, um, for starters, just letting me know, and this is what I try to do. So Rob, I teach at DePaul now as, um, in the spring I teach to BFA fours and what I let them

Speaker 5: (01:13:26)
I've listened to the podcast. I'm so excited. So yeah,

Speaker 6: (01:13:30)
Well, what I wish more than anything for me, of someone like me, a people pleasing body shame, um, mixed heritage human, or maybe Al of us, I don't know, saying to me, please fail, fail here, fail, fail, brilliantly, fail all the time here. So that when you get out of here, regardless of what you do, you have build resilience to know that it's okay. So to fail, whatever your fear is, the shame I needed a school that busted my shame down, not reinforced it. And so I found a school that reinforced every single one of my phobias about myself, and then just delayed it like years. Rob delayed, my travel was, was a different travel, but like delayed my trauma until I was 30 and then had to go into, you know, massive amounts of therapy. And it didn't, it just didn't help. It could have, and as a, as my favorite psychiatrist used to say, it could have worked like it worked for people.

Speaker 6: (01:14:32)
Look, they seem happy, healthy, and they're famous and doing whatever they're doing. It just wasn't didn't work for me. What about you, Gina? What about you? Well, I kind of like what Rob said about, you know, having more subtlety or variation or nuance in imagining the type of career that a variety of people could have. So, and, and by the way, I'll preface this by saying I'm not certain, this would, I'm not certain, it was incumbent upon the theater school to do this a and B uh, um, I'm not certain, it would have even been necessarily their place, but I'll just say it would have been great looking back if somebody had said, so, do you, uh, want to do theater or do you want to do film and TV? And I would have said, I want to do theater. And then they would said, great, are you independently wealthy?

Speaker 6: (01:15:23)
And I would've said no. And then I said, okay, so you're going to have to have it. You can be, you can be, you can have a whole career as a theater person, but there's a chance it won't pay your bills. So, so start thinking now about how, what the job is that you're going to have and whether or not that's going to feed you and whether or not you're going to be in this position that so many of us has been in, have you, you can't do theater or you can't practice your art because the demands of the job or, or overwhelming. Um, even if somebody had said to me, like, you know, a kind of an easy job to get, although I'm not a singer, but on a cruise ship, you know, they're always hiring people on the cruise ship or, or, or, or maybe you don't think you're right for film and TV, but you, you could make some easy money, like being an extra and then, and have some expo.

Speaker 6: (01:16:19)
Just anything that was like really looking at me and really evaluating my strengths and weaknesses, and then really creating a plan that was unique to me and the school, frankly, especially in the fourth year with 20 kids, it was small enough that they could have done that for everybody. I totally agree. And I think we needed guidance counselors in the theaters to sit down with us and say, Hey, I see you like to write, you should think about X. I just, if we had had personalized guidance career counselors that had said, you are not like your classmates in this way, check out this. And, and it would have been, I think the thing you said that really resonated with me, Gina too, was this just individualized, if a more of an individ look at, say, okay, Rob, you're a character actor, but you could also be a leading man. So, but let's look at, you know, anyway, let, let's have a little more nuance. Someone brought us at nuance and it's like, let's be a little more nuanced.

Speaker 5: (01:17:22)
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there was no attempt to help me associate my personal relationship with my art and where it came from and how that was the thing that was going to sustain me, you know, both personally and professionally throughout the rest of my time with it. Right. So it was like, you know, they took the worst parts of the industry, which is the judgment, the shame, the like making people small, the white washing. And they introduced that right away on like day one. Right. Um, and, and I think, you know, that's especially crushing when you're dealing with kids who are burgeoning as artists and they're figuring out who they want to be, how they want to carry that through the world, you know? Yeah. For sure. Definitely. Yeah. I'm just looking at the clock. I can't believe we're running low on time. So is our,

Speaker 6: (01:18:12)
I have to say, this is a story. This is a TD story that my psychiatrist told me that is, reminds me so much of you Rob, and what you've been through. It's very short. I'll tell you. I had the psychiatrist who saved my life when I was 30. And I, my father had died of a drug overdose and I went to him and Gina knows this. I was very suicidal, very, very not well. And, um, he told me and I was guilty. I thought, for sure, I could have saved my father, like, and he said, I'm going to tell you a story. And he was an old school psychiatrist back in the day when people could stay in hospitals, like for three months, four months. And he told me, I once had a patient and he was a soldier in the Polish resistance in world war II.

Speaker 6: (01:18:56)
Okay. And this soldier and he wouldn't talk, he wouldn't talk, his whole platoon had been killed. He wouldn't talk. He wouldn't talk. He was the only one that survived. And so, but he refused to talk about his experience. And so every day my psychiatrist would have him go to the woodworking shop in the, in the mental hospital and sand aboard. And it reminded me of your sanding and sand, the sport. And every night my psychiatrist would go down who smoked at the time and put out his cigarette on the board and say sanded again. So he had to sand. And this went on for a long time until finally the soldier, the ex-soldier got so enraged that he started screaming. This is an impossible task. You have given me an impossible task. And my psychiatrist, God love him said, and you were given the impossible task of running face first into a huge battle.

Speaker 6: (01:19:55)
And you chose to save yourself by turning the other way and running. He had run, he had left to save his life. And he said, you were set up from the beginning. So he recreated this thing. And from that day on, when the guy got really and cracked open at this board being sanded and being burned, and he finally started to heal it, it just totally reminds me of you of like the idea that right. We're ready when we're ready, but we did get help and teachers along the way, some are kinder than others, but you've managed to do the work and you've managed to do it in a way, and now you're using your experience. Um, and by the way, this guy went on to become a therapist, the, the Polish combat for combat vets. And so you're doing the same thing with your ice cream. So it's like, it's like, you're man, you're helping other people with, through your experience, through your sanding of the board. It just really reminded me of yeah.

Speaker 5: (01:20:55)
Yeah. Thank you. That's really. Yeah. And I really appreciate that and I appreciate you sharing that with me. And, um, I also see it as similar to what you guys are doing with the podcast, right? Like you're looking at your and you're sharing it with folks, you know? And, um, I mean, I think, you know, at DePaul, they did, you know, none of those folks knew, right? Like Trudy Kessler didn't know who I was on the inside and what was going on. So she's saying they snarky things, um, and she doesn't know how it's being received. Then again, that person wasn't adult at the time and could have, could have maybe chosen differently. Right. Um, so, you know, like you guys say, we do the best at the time. We all did the best at the time. And, um, yeah, DePaul taught me some amazing things about empathy and how to really see other people and what's going on in the situation.

Speaker 5: (01:21:47)
Um, it really taught me to be observant and it taught me different ways that people go through their lives. Um, and that has been, I think the thing that I've carried with me and that's impacted me more than anything has just been, being able to really see people and imagine what's going on for them and sort of embody that yourself. And that is such a rare gift. And so people say like, Oh, would you go back to theater school again, given how, you know, the of it? Um, and I, a hundred percent would I, I think it was exactly the right thing, even though it was so wrong at the right time for me, um, I really needed it. I think if I hadn't gotten those skills, if I had, you know, been an engineering student or something, how would I have processed all this stuff that was going on with me? Would I have been in touch with my body? Would I have turned to art, which is eventually the thing that kind of saved me. Right. Um, and made me decide to keep going. So it was, uh, yeah, it was a very traumatic time and there were some wrongs. Um, there, there are a lot of wrongs and a lot of situations. So it did teach me sort of that resiliency at an early, at an early age. So thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 6: (01:22:58)
So Rob, tell us, tell everybody where they can find your fabulous ice cream, so you can find it at

Speaker 5: (01:23:06)
Go ice cream, go.com. Um, and, uh, yeah, we're gonna start shipping nationwide this coming year. Right now, we're a small handmade, small batch ice cream store in, you know, a small college town outside of Ann Arbor. Um, but the popularity keeps growing and, uh, yeah, we're going to start shipping nationwide coming soon.

Speaker 1: (01:23:26)
Will you be debuting trauma burrito, flavor, anytime

Speaker 5: (01:23:32)
They're all trauma burrito flavor. That's the spoiler. You know what I mean? It's like, I think about flavors based off of my experience and things that I want to say to people about things. Um, and so they always have stories, right? Like that's how I started with it. I would come up with a story, right? Like it would be about my relationship to my dad and masculinity. And that flavor was a black licorice flavor. And then I would write that story, take pictures of it, put it up on a blog. And that was how it all kind of started, was thinking about those stories and where food lives for me and sharing that with folks. So, yeah, it's all trauma burritos, baby.

Speaker 1: (01:24:11)
I love it. I love it. This is absolutely lovely to see you guys. It's been so healing and I survived theater school as an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plea cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?