Hello, I'm Isabelle. She her.
Hers. And I'm David. He him
his. And we're two therapists with ADHD
who sit down to have some chats about ADHD.
We can't promise we'll stay on topic or be
professional or even remotely mature, but
we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your
loved one's beautiful neurodivergent
brain in a shiny new way. This is not a
therapy session. This is something
Shiny!
I love it.
Do you like it?
That's amazing. And can this just be the
intro? You saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it is?
Yeah, that
could be our first intro.
So without further ado, welcome to Something
Shiny.
I'm David.
In this episode, David and I
debrief what it was like to attend
the Young Leaders Organizing
Institute of Eye to Eye.
What does that all mean? First off, check out the show notes.
for all the good links and for more info. But
in a nutshell, you maybe remember David
mentioning this organization on and off. It is
a deep part of his origin
story. so big recommend going back
to his, origin story episode.
But in a nutshell, Eye to Eye is a national
organization. It's been around 20 plus
years, and its mission is to
improve the lives of neurodiverse young
people. And it engages
neurodiverse young people and
their allies, literally forming a movement to
make a more equitable and inclusive society.
And the oi. As it's dubbed
the Organizing Institute. it brings
together these student leaders.
From all of Idai's programs so that.
They can learn, train, connect, and
get ramped up for the new school year. This
is the first in what we're so
excited to share, a big series.
Of incredible,
recordings that all kind.
Of connect somehow to this
conference and our experience
with neurodivergent
culture. So excited to share this episode with
you and stay tuned for more. And of course,
before we go there, well, we'll hit
up some super fun tangents.
That's how we roll. That's how we roll.
We got to be under sometimes, so,
full disclosure,
I have been on my Adderall now,
my extended release Adderall, for, like, a month or
two, and it's, like,
noticeable. And then my,
prescriber because I would
kind of crash at the end of the day, and I felt like I
was really the two times
I most needed are mornings and then, like, bedtime,
essentially, where there's lots of moving parts
and transitions or, like, pickup from school
on. But I also
do benefit from it at work. I benefit from it
everywhere. It's pretty obvious now that I've been on it a while how much I
benefit from it. So I just started taking,
the extended release, and then I do a second
immediate release dose,
like, midday.
A booster.
A booster. And it's so cool. And I
totally forgot it today
just because life happened, right? Because we're adjusting
to, our kid being in kindergarten and
pickups are different. Timing of everything is different. But our other
kid is not starting their school yet. It's a whole thing.
It feels like the puberty of our schedule time
right now. This is puberty. We're going through schedule
puberty. And I just want
the discomfort to be done
with. And I want the beautiful butterfly of us on
the other side of knowing our schedule to
be done. But that would happen till the end of the month. But
anyway, I say all this to say
I realized two things. One is that
I am extremely
sensitive to textures that I
didn't even realize that on Adderall. I was
not noticing clothing
or sensations as
much. Does that make any sense at all? Am I
crazy? M. It's real.
This whole afternoon, I mean, it was so
itchy, but I wanted to
I've never felt so uncomfortable. It was like the
sensation just felt amplified.
It's almost as if you didn't have,
an accommodation to avoid distraction and you were noticing
how many physical distractions you were just kind of pushing through,
which is like a total narrative for the ADHD
population.
Okay, cool.
Because I'm feeling it even now, right? Like, you see
me and I'm like itching, and I'm uncomfortable, and I
just want this temperature, and it's like
I'm so distracted by my physical
sensations. I'm not used to this feeling.
Oh, it's so real. And I think there have to be the
right variables to bring that out. It was just a few
weeks ago. It was, like, ridiculously hot and stupid
humid. I mean, like, 87%
humidity. The moment where the real feel is,
like, 20 degrees above where it actually is.
I went into kicked open the door
of my house, and I was just m.
I'm not wearing a shirt and.
I'm not wearing pants.
And I went to the bedroom and came back with
basketball shorts, and that was it. And there was nothing I was
not going to change for the life of me that day. And
I didn't want to sit on certain fabrics
because it was like it's breathing on me. I don't want something that's going
to breathe back, and I don't want to feel like I have
to peel myself off it when I finish. Why can't something just
have an agreement to be there and hold me, and I
hold it. We leave each other, same as we found each
other.
Yes.
Why can't there be a leave no trace policy
with my thighs and my
lower back as I sit in this chair?
I'm just sitting on your chair. Why do you got
to snap my layer of
skin off? No.
and then there was the other chairs that whisper
inappropriate things to everyone else. And what I mean by that is
you sit down on the chair, you get up, and your butt is in
that chair. All the fibers are going in the one Direction.
Your butt was in it.
And you would see my butt and it's like I'm used
to. Now I get up and wipe the seat. As I get
up, I've shaken the Etcher Sketch like
no one's looking at my bum.
No.
Couch. You can't fool
me again. You can't fool me twice. Couch.
Not twice, maybe
twice.
Okay, I
got to ask you because we're talking about textures, we're talking about medicine.
And this is an important part of my week
in our lives, is that we get to sit down and talk about this.
But for a
while we've been talking about going
out, seeing what the culture looks like in different
places What the culture feels like in different ways.
By culture, by the way, you mean like neurodivergent
culture?
Culture?
Oh, yeah.
Like everything we talk about on something shiny is
neurodivergent culture, if you think about it. M. It's
things that we're all going to be like, oh my God, yes.
I don't want to hear one person say, you won't be able to take a spell
chucker with you, or all that kind of stuff. All those little
things that make us all grown.
Or like five more minutes. Grown like all these
cultural little parts. And
we went to go see this program,
Eye to Eye.
They have this thing called the Organizing Institute that they have once
a year. And this organizing
Institute they use to train their mentors that are going to
go out and work with kids throughout the year.
Right?
HM.
But they set up this program for
these mentors with all the
accommodations you could need, And no corrective
behavior. And so
you and I went to this conference I've been
a number of times before, right?
Yes.
What was it like for you to come
to?
Oh my gosh. Okay, so first off, just
to elaborate a little more because I'm
imagining even just to help remind myself.
So the part we, or at
least I was able to be connected to was
the part that then invited former
mentors and allies
and everyone kind of connected to
the mission of the organization.
Right. Like coming in and,
getting even extra training on top of the
mentors and stuff that were doing it. And
I mean, it was just like the weirdest thing. First off,
literally, this was the first thing walking and
it was held in the beautiful University of
Denver campus. It was so gorgeous. But it was just
in this one huge building. But
walking in there was a giant sign
with arrows saying where to go. And then you walk
in and there's another sign with arrows saying where to go. And then you
take like two more steps and there's another sign with arrows telling you where to
go. And at every possible moment where you would
glance in some different direction, you would find
more data about where you need to go.
david and I mean, I walked in. I think the first thing
I said is, this is the first time I've ever been to a
conference and found my way. We're supposed to
go the first time. What?
It just made me realize I've been to so many
conferences and I never go where I'm supposed
to. I continually get lost. I'm always
late. It's so confusing to me. I'm always like,
why do they put the print on the doors in
these tiny letters? Like, I don't know where anything
is. so first off, that was
huge. It just felt like someone thought of it,
right? and then you walk in a
room and I don't know how to explain it. It just kind of felt
like everyone was already maybe not like
close family, that, you know, a lot, but
everyone kind of already felt like they were just like a
friend in waiting or
extended family, like cousins. I didn't know I had
kind of vibe. it just sort of felt like that everyone's
talking in line, people are making like
it was just delightful. It was delightful.
And it was so moving
and emotional and everything.
But anyway, that's just like so first impression,
delight. And then of course, just overjoyed and
over the moon to see you and Robin. And then
also, just also the,
had they had ample food and
snacks. The snacks, everybody I
cannot get over. I want to live that
snack life all the time. Why don't I live that snack
life all the time? Every single room, so many
snacks. Sweet and savory varieties,
varieties of drinks and gatorade. Like
everywhere, everywhere you went, there was water.
It was delightful. It was delightful.
It was a moment.
And I think one of the things about being in a place like this
is your nervous system feels
different because there are very different
dances happening. For instance,
I'm used to needing to find my room. I get there kind of
early. I'm never sure if I'm going to find it. I'm walking kind of quick because I want to
make sure I get to the right place and get there in time. And then when I get to the room, I
got to calm down, I got to breathe, I got to stop
sweating, let my heart rate slow down. Like, I got
to feel better because I just rushed to find this right
room versus this experience here where
we just walked to the place we need to be.
Where we need to be, exactly. Didn't have to
get anxious of, where am I going to go? There was no nervous system
spiking to try to get us there.
And it's this place where we see
not only like there are accommodations everywhere, this
organization, I does a great job with accommodations and
teaching kids to advocate. So we get to see both of
it. And I think, I don't know if you notice it. But there was
no shame around this group of people to pick up
a.
Fidget spinner or fold
spinners everywhere,
draw.
Or doodle or make a friendship bracelet in the middle of a
conversation. These were accommodations that were built
everywhere. People didn't have to sit in nothingness. which I thought was just
great.
Yes. No, that's exactly right. The way
you described it, that is the feeling. It's like the reason it
mattered is that all the
things that normally would be the thing
I'm actually
managing through with a ton of anxiety
in my end, or,
almost like forcing myself to not think about, like,
legit. I think that's why I pointed those things out, right? Because
you're so right. My heart rate, usually at a conference is
extremely elevated. I am super
anxious. I am absolutely ahead of
time. And then still somehow running late.
I'm getting into the room and I'm sitting down, and it's like
halfway through the lecture or the presentation that my body
is relatively calm. But as soon as I'm in the room, all
I want is a snack. And the whole time I'm like,
can I get the bar, the energy bar out of
my bag? No, it's going to make noise. I can't make noise. I can't make
noise. I can't make noise. And then that's just going through my head for the
first 15 minutes. And then I'm desperately
opening the tiny teeny little notebook they give you. And I'm
like, I don't think I can draw, but I really want
to. The whole thing is just
constant hyper vigilance around
how I am presenting. I think it's like constant
masking. And you're so right. This was like
instant unmasking, because
I immediately felt like I didn't have to stop and
get anxious about asking someone about where to go. I felt like
someone was like, you got this? And I'm like, yeah, I do
got this. Thanks for all the extra giant lettered
signs and big arrows.
Yes.
and then, yeah, with the snacks, it was almost like
permission is what it felt like with the fidgets everywhere.
And there were clean Xboxes everywhere too, because, gosh,
that always happens to me. I always need to blow my nose or cough or
whatever. All the body needs
that would constantly be on
my mind is like, oh, I can't reveal
them. It just was permission.
Just seeing it there, just seeing it out
inside. Note all the snacks. The thing I didn't say all the
snacks were in crinkly packaging. Did you
notice this? And I loved it. And I was like, this is
permission. This is also not like the thing you often see at a
conference where it's like, take this muffin, this crumbly muffin,
and just, like, silently choke it down.
Well, I think it's incredible when the task isn't being
quiet.
Exactly.
When the task is participation.
Yes.
That is encouraged by the organization. That's an
incredible thing to feel. And that difference is just so
amazing. it makes me, in this very
distilled way, think about culture.
The culture that we really have that
is a part of being neurodivergent, and
that any person
getting an accommodation in a school, any person having
to talk to excuse why they're late, any
person not wanting to spell in front of other
people. People that don't want to play
Scrabble. I heart you. I get it.
This is a cultural piece. And I think
when we can see these feelings as part of our
culture but not part of our deficiencies,
all of a sudden we can feel the difference when they're attended
to.
Yeah.
We can feel like we belong in a place
or it feels safer all of a sudden.
And not that we need to have safe spaces everywhere because it's
impossible, but oh my God, all of a
sudden, not having to fight for every moment to
pay attention gives me a lot more energy in a lot
of other places.
Exactly. Yes. Okay. So
my feeling about it was
I guess because it felt like it
was so much was thought of and
taken care of on that front right.
On that kind of both sensory
and I don't know the words for
it, but it just felt like exactly what you're
saying.
the thing I want to name is, for me, it was an exceptional and I
got so emotional, and I still will get emotional as I think about it.
It was such an exceptional experience.
I genuinely have never felt anything like it.
I really haven't. And the places where I have felt
it have been places where I have been authorized or maybe
even tasked with creating the environment.
So it's not that I deprive myself of those
things when I have authority or ability to do
that. I think about all the therapy offices I've
ever been a part of or had a chance to make a
playroom for or
decorate my own office. That is what my
office would feel like. I would have snacks
always out. I would have or, places. It was
against policy. I'd find a way.
I'd always have tea. There's just like a constant
way that I think it's something
that I guess the weird
feeling for me. And I imagine this is not dissimilar
to I don't see like,
I'm a child of immigrants and I sometimes feel this it's like a weird
comparison. But I feel this way sometimes when I go visit
Poland where my parents are from.
But it's also not where I grew up, it's where all my other
family grew up. But, the feeling I get when I go there
is this, like it's this odd
familiarity and I don't have to
explain certain things or I feel
just a certain sense of
ease that I don't know I'm missing
when I'm not in that vibe. Right. Because I
was raised primarily around other Polish
immigrant families. Right. So
something about that feels a lot like home.
And then also just hearing that language spoken. There's a lot
to it, but that's sort of what it felt like. But
again, I only go there every couple of years, if not
every half a decade, right? So it's
also something I've gotten so used to at having to
hold within myself and never really share.
And I think that's the thing that makes me
so emotional is I don't know that I've ever had that
feeling synced up to a room
of other people having the feeling at the same
time, right? Does that make sense? I'd visit my family
and I'd be like, well, I'm the one having that feeling. But they're all
living here. They don't feel it.
But this was me in a room where I'm simultaneously
resonating off of all the other humans, also
going, I think I just found my home planet
a little bit. And then
I just felt moved. I don't remember a
time, literally since maybe the early
postpartum days where I
was so like, the tears, even as I say it, are
just like my body just
felt so big. It felt
all the feels. It felt warm and
fuzzy and sad and mad. And
all the feelings that come, I think, from being like, where
has this been?
It's all of it, right? It's like, Where has this been? I needed
this. And then on the other hand, it's like, I'm so happy it's here.
And on the other hand, oh, no, it's going to be over soon. And
all of it that
surprised me. I don't know that I expected that at all,
but I've talked a lot. Does that make sense?
It's this part around I mean, if I get really
technical, I think this is the part around intersectionality.
I think this is a part of knowing all of a sudden, you're
part of a group. You're not alone.
You're part of a group that this world wasn't built
for. and we have to do it our way.
And when you see hundreds of other
people doing it a little bit differently and not asking
permission and not getting in
trouble exactly. Not making
problems. It wasn't like
everyone go draw a tree in the corner and one person's, like, playing
with fingerprints, like just making smiley faces. No, people
were doing the trees. People were
attending to the task with incredible detail.
and it was an honor
to watch these young adults forge
a world that a lot of people are going to live in.
Yeah. Oh, I miss it. Ah, does
this happen to you?
So now can I flip the question to you, David? Like, having
done this, so many, like, M,
what was your vibe? Do you remember what it felt like the first
time you felt it? And then, what do you feel?
What happens to you after you leave too, because that feels
like a whole thing.
This is so hard. This is so hard. I think I
can answer so many parts of it. I think the first
time I went was, oh
my gosh, 15,
1617 years ago, a while ago, a
few years back. But it was a
while ago. And, it was the
first time in my life someone had made
my learning style feel valuable.
And I was in a grad school class and I was like, and
I'm being the bombastic ADHD dude. And I'm
like, blah, blah, blah. I'm sure I talked about ADHD or
something, right?
And then after class, one of my classmates was like,
hey,
the hurried whisper. And I was like, yeah,
you were talking about ADHD and stuff. Do you have any interest
in starting a program around
here that works with high schools or college students
with learning disabilities? And they match them up with middle school students with learning
disabilities and they do art projects together and feel good? And
I was like, this exists. I'd love to be
part of it.
HM?
And she goes, oh, you're just going to have to talk to this guy, David
Flink. He'll give you an interview.
Mhm?
And I was like, oh, I got an interview. And
then I'm doing my whole, like, I'm going to kill this interview. What do I
do? How do I get ready for this interview? All right, I'm going to talk about
all these things that I studied or what I'm going to do
the interview. I won't go through it like verbatim just
because that's a private, really important moment that I got
with David Flink. And it was important, but it
was very quickly when I learned speaking
about my learning differences, my
neurodivergence,
that's what he was interested in and not in
an exploitive way. Yeah,
and I've been used to that, like, oh, you got
a learning difference over there. Come over here, we're going to help
you. Quotient? I don't know. I don't know why my
voice went.
You know what you sounded? You sounded like a stage manager from like,
Newsies or something. Like, we're going to exploit the kids
and make them do an act. I don't know.
We're going to make them do things.
Yes.
But it felt really holding. And it was this
conversation where it's like, well, I'd love to have you be a
mentor. And we have this thing, come on out to
Brown University and we'll put you through this
training. We'll teach you how to be a mentor. And I was like,
Sounds great. And
fast forward life to the summer in between
one grad year to the next grad year when I'm going to this
oi, I land. There's
like 27 people at this time
sitting like crisscross applesauce in
a half moon circle around an easel.
And David and Marcus are standing front
easel with markers, like
dreamboarding stuff. And we're just shouting out ideas, and they're
trying to write the ideas on the board. And
while this is happening, Grady, if you hear this, please
know I miss your face and you've helped my life. Thank you,
Grady. Grady is sitting there with this little racquetball and
he's bouncing it.
There's this rhythm to the way he's hitting,
like and I just remember going like,
man, he's bouncing a ball. And I
remember thinking, like, you're not supposed to bounce a ball. He's going to get in trouble.
And then I looked around and no one
cared.
and then all of a sudden.
I was like, I want to bounce a ball. And then I was
like, hey, Grady, do you have another
ball? And he went, no, but here. And passed it
right to me. And I went, oh, back to him. And then
we're playing catch with this racquetball. And then we're playing catch, like,
bounce it off the wall to the other person. Bounce it off the wall to the other person,
then back to each other. And then how many bounces can you have
before it hits the other person without it going flat? how little
bounces can you get? So the whole time we're in this
presentation, we are playing with these racquetballs
At the same time we're playing with these racquetballs. Obviously
distracted, marcus is trying to write the
word benign on the easel M
and stops and goes,
does anyone know how to spell benign?
And that question right when someone goes, does anyone know how
to spell? Like, I have learned to become as small as
humanly possible in that moment because I don't want to be the one
that says, like, no, I don't know how to spell it. We need to find someone else. Because
that's the answer. Impermanent, right? Like, I don't know how to
spell that thing. Well, he's like, you didn't know how
to spell benign? And the room was like crickets
people blinking. And they're like, no. And everyone's like,
no, I don't know how to spell benign. And he went, well, all
right then. And just wrote the letter B and the
number nine. And we kept going, that's
so amazing. I'm like, this
makes sense to me. No problem.
And then it hits me. He's asking a
question. Grady's answering, like, I
don't know how to spell, but I'm answering it's not that we're not
paying attention because we're bouncing the ball. All of a sudden,
I didn't feel like I was in trouble or trying to hide
in a classroom setting for the first time.
even if I was on task in school, I would be
like, there's something that I'm unaware of
that I should have been doing that someone's going to call my attention
to.
Exactly.
I'm just about to be caught. I'm about to be caught doing
the thing I'm not supposed to be doing I didn't even know I wasn't supposed to
be doing.
So in this oi. I learned so much.
So much. And I took so much from that experience
and poured it into the counseling studying that I was doing to
be therapist. Because, Marcus and David
were like, ten years ahead of the movement
when I first met them. They are still ten
years ahead of the movement in terms of what they're actually
doing. And they would deny that. They're
like, no. And we listen to the kids, and the kids help direct us, and
the young adults help direct us. And they're right, and they do,
but they are right. And so
fast forward, I get super involved. I start traveling
around, giving talks about ADHD and how to
come together and neurodivergence and all this stuff.
And then a short while ago,
one of the closest people in my life, my brother,
died. And his death
was nothing short of
horrific and it required a
lot of attention.
And so the moment I found out
he was dying,
I remember talking with Jennifer Cain, shortly after this,
but I remember talking with people, saying, I'm
done, I'm not going anywhere.
I saw myself wanting to visit my brother
every couple of weeks, every three weeks. And that was going to take
my whole time and everything was going to go towards that. And if they ever
needed me, I didn't want to be in Brown
or Denver or San Francisco or Reno. I just wanted
to be around home.
And so when he was sick and when I call everyone, I
actually thought I would never get to see anyone ever
again. And so this
trip out with you,
it just reminded me what
I know to be true about people,
that it's important to have hope in people
and people will surprise you.
And, here I go
from starting with 27 people, like, sitting around
have circles that now there's
audiobooks being sent out to workshop
tables that have fidget spinners and iPhones
that they're communicating to the app so they could all share questions, but
no one has to raise their hand. The levels of things
that they were doing and how sophisticated they are
now. Not saying they weren't sophisticated back then,
but where they are now. It kind of feels like that day
where you leave your small town and you're like,
bye everyone, I'll see you in a few years. And then
I go have a real scoop of ice cream in a big city. I'm
like, oh my God, I can't wait to tell everyone. And I go back home
and everyone's grown up and home has spaceships
now.
It's amazing.
And so coming back and being amazed
by how incredible they are, how incredible their mentors
are right now, how incredible their alumni is, like, their
resources, the keynote speaker,
don't spoiler.
but it was such an incredible experience. And
for me, I knew you
hadn't seen anything like this before.
It's pretty obvious.
No one has.
Yeah, no one has.
And there's this look
that I've seen so many people have in
so many times that I've been to the Oi and the only
way I m can't make this face authentically so
I'm not going to try to make it. I'll just say the things
it's like you saw a
dragon for the first time, It was nice,
it shrunk to the size of a pea and
went into your heart.
That is totally what it is.
It's a happy pea heart dragon.
There's a shock bit of like this can't be
real life, mhm?
Very much so. Very much so. Like walking just
walking around going what? Is this for
real?
Thank you so much for listening. If you ever have that thought where you
think, hey, I'm nothing. Stop. Remember you're
something something's shiny that's right.
Just as you are. If you like what you heard and
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