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Hi, everyone. I'm East Lansing info's deputy editor, Annalise Nichols, and we're in the midst of the holiday season right now in December. And along with good food, maybe some time off of work, definitely some slippery icy sidewalks and streets out there, hordes of folks in East Lansing and the state of Michigan and beyond will be or have been making trips to and fro to see loved ones. And though it's nice to take some time from the bustle of life to see your friends and family, the holiday season isn't without its stresses. Of course, unless you're my family listening, then every day is a joy to see you.

But along with putting the finishing touches on holiday cookies or securing that garland that just won't stay where it's supposed to, the holidays are widely understood by mental health experts as a time where grief can often take the spotlight impacting people's ability to really enjoy the festivities when they've experienced the loss of a loved one in their life. Over in the capital area this week, I'm talking to Kelly Kerner, program director of Ellie's Place in Mid Michigan, which also has locations in Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor. Ellie's Place is a nonprofit organization working to support children and families as they navigate loss after the death of a parent or a sibling or another loved one. So I thought it would be a good time to take a moment to talk about grief around the holidays, so I'm happy to have Kelly with me to talk about that today. Hi, Kelly.

Hi

there. How are you?

I'm doing well. How are you doing?

Good. Thank

you for joining me. Could you tell me a little bit about what Ellie's Place does for the Mid Michigan community and and what you do there?

Sure. So Ellie's Place is a center for grieving children and teens. We provide grief support for children between the ages of three and 18. We also provide support to the parent or guardian that's bringing the child to the support groups, and we have, groups for the adults as well that meet at the same time as the kids groups. We also offer two other types of supports, and one that is the young adult group, which is for 18 to 26 year olds that have experienced the death of someone significant to them.

And then we also partner with, local schools, like schools within a 30 mile radius of our center, and we go out to the schools and partner with them. So one of our Ellie's Place staff members will partner with the school counselor there at the school, and we will provide an eight week support group at their school. And that's really intended for kids that can't get to our center in the evening during our typical group time. Mhmm.

And then from your perspective, someone who works in the the realm of grief and healing, why does grief, you know, veer its ugly head around the holidays?

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. So, I mean, grief is really tricky because it's not something that we just, you know, cure and fix. It's a lifelong journey, and holidays can be especially difficult for families that are grieving.

You know, our society kind of encourages us to join in in the holiday spirit and go to parties and listen to music. But the reality is a lot of those sounds and sights and smells trigger memories of their person that died. And so it can really be a difficult time for people and leave them feeling really alone.

Mhmm. What can help people best navigate the holidays when they've experienced grief, whether that's a recent loss or or even one that may have happened some time ago, but Yeah. They either still carry with them Yes. On the daily I mean, grief is is complicated and and unfair.

Exactly. It is. It is all of those things and more. And I think that it's important to remember that it's not just the first or the second year after a death that sometimes things still feel, you know, unresolved or just really challenging. And so I think it's really important to remind families that grief is a lifelong experience, and each special occasion can really be a powerful reminder of the person's absence.

And so I think it's really important for for individuals to be remember to be kind to themselves. I mean, I think that some of the ways they can do that is taking care of themselves, making their family a first priority. I think that talking about their feelings is really important. We oftentimes talk about the statement. What is mentionable is manageable.

And that really is a is a good reminder to folks that if we can talk about hard things, it makes it a bit more manageable. And so really encouraging sharing of memories of the person, talking about their favorite foods or some of their favorite traditions at the holidays. And I think using their name is really important and can be a way for the family to stay connected with that person that is no longer there physically.

Yeah. What can loved ones do if they know someone, whether it's a family member or a loved one can also be a friend or or, I don't know, someone in your life you respect? What can we do in community if we know someone might be impacted by grief this holiday season? And, also, how do we even identify grief in our orbit?

Well, I think grief is kind of it's it's sprinkled everywhere, right, throughout our world. And whether it's the death of someone or whether it's an illness that someone is struggling with or a divorce or a move or a job loss, there's lots of different ways that we grieve. I mean, at Ellie's place, our our focus is after someone has experienced the death of someone. But with that being said, there there is a lot of grief that surrounds us. And I think that, you know, being aware of just checking in on friends and family that are grieving, a lot of times, folks reach out to people that are grieving and say, what can I do to help?

Like, how can I support you? And a lot of times, if it's a fresh grief or a fresh death, they might not know what they need. You know? They're just trying to put one foot in front of the other. And so I think that recognizing that is really important.

So maybe giving them some options of I'd like to do x, y, or z and have have the person select one of those. I think it's really important to make sure that you're not forcing families to feel obligated to attend parties or celebrations. They need to really be able to set the expectations that feel right to them.

That's interesting to hear that they're giving them a couple options because it both, it sounds like, takes away the burden of having to identify what it is that can help you in this moment while also giving you a bit of autonomy to

Yeah.

Decide on a maybe a a more manageable aspect of, you know, out of these five things, I can I can handle this being done for me or doing this?

Mhmm. Mhmm.

But, also, maybe even if it's somebody who matters to you even if you're going through a hard time, someone who matters to you identifying a couple things because they know you or love you, that it might help. Sounds like it might even just mean something just to

Yeah. I mean, just just the thought, you know, is important. If they wanna drop something off, just it's it's it's important just to know that they're being thought about. Mhmm. But sometimes it can be overwhelming if they have a lot of people stopping at their home, and it ends up feeling like they're having to host other people when maybe they don't really feel like they want to engage in a lot of social interactions.

So just kind of following, their lead with that, I think, is really important.

With all that, and everyone's different, are there any activities or coping mechanisms that are good for navigating grief while also getting to enjoy the holidays, whether that be someone who's trying to support somebody through grief or just, you know, you trying to navigate your own grief.

Mhmm. Yeah. So I think it's important to be able to recognize and honor our person that died. And so that could look a lot of different ways. Right?

Like, so for example, maybe doing something as simple as lighting a candle during a family gathering and everyone kind of just knowing that that candle is there to signify that person that's missing at their family gathering this year. Sometimes it's helpful to make ornaments or decorations for the person that died and put them on a tree or something like that that what regardless of what holiday a family recognize And then sometimes people kids will make, like, little placemats for their person, and they put it in the spot of the seat where the person used to sit at the dinner table as a way to keep that person's memory alive. And then sometimes just sharing memories. You know? And I think that it's always really important to remember that it's okay to also have fun, and it's it's okay to laugh.

Right? Like, memories elicit different emotions. Like, some memories will elicit tears, and others will elicit laughter, and that's good. That's that and that's okay. I think that sometimes people people that are grieving feel guilty if they have a moment of happiness or laughter, but it's important to remember that that's okay too.

Yeah. Do you guys see an influx of need or an anticipation? Do you guys, over at Ellie's Place, make plans for the holidays to really support the community? And and what does that look like?

So we do a family night with our families that are enrolled in our program, typically in November, and that's an opportunity for families to work together on an activity. And we do luminary candles where they can create a candle with memories of their person, with things they miss about their person. We, have the families decorate that, and then we put a candle to light up that project that they created, and the family members get a chance to come up and share a memory of their person. So I think that that's a great way that they can begin to, you know, to keep their person alive in in their memories.

So my understanding of Ellie's Place is it it mainly focuses or at least that it helps children, but you had mentioned it it it takes care of the whole family, but also there's programming for people up into their to their mid late twenties. Given East Lansing is a college town

Mhmm.

Are is there any concerns or considerations that you guys make over at LA's place for, you know, the Michigan State University students or the LCC students that Mhmm. Might not have their hometown community around them as they navigate grief

in

their life.

Mhmm. Because so, like, throughout

our life, I feel like at one point, everyone's going to have to celebrate at least one holiday experiencing grief.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And once you experience a death, it's

an

ongoing thing, right, that we have to deal with every year. And and so I think that that's something to remember, and we're in we're in we're affected by it each year in a different way due to a lot of different factors, our age, our relationship with the person, you know, all of these things. But I think, obviously, one of the things that we provide for the MSU students is our young adult group, which is a free service to those those young adults in our community. They come to our center once a week in the evening, and they meet with other young adults that are also grieving the death of someone significant to them. So, of course, we have that.

But one of the other things that we offer the community, which I think is really helpful, is, we offer free clinical consultation. And so if a family even if a family is not enrolled in our program, we can talk them through language to use when trying to explain a death to someone or just answer a variety of questions they have about what their grief looks like. And is this normal? And what other types of supports are in the community that they might be looking for?

I know we're already in the midst of the holiday season, but is there any, you know, strategy or game plan that could be helpful for families?

I think it's really important for families to after after they experience the death of someone in their life, it's important for them to be able to talk as a family about what they want their traditions to look like moving forward after this person has died. So if it's a spouse or a child, for example, do they wanna start new traditions, or do they want to really keep the existing traditions that have already been in place? Or is it a mixture of both? And knowing that any way they decide to move forward with that is okay, but but those are different questions that oftentimes come up for families. Like, what do we do?

Like, do we continue to do what we've always done, or do we change things up? It's really a decision to be made by everyone in the family. I mean, I think that it's important to involve everyone in the family, including kids. Kids really like to be involved in decisions. They wanna be a part of the family, and so I think it's really important for them to be included in these discussions.

This is kind of a a big question, but I definitely wanna ask it. For people who entering this holiday season and, you know, we just had a couple holidays. I mean, Halloween is important to me personally. That's always been my my personal favorite.

Mhmm.

But as we navigate the next few days, weeks, there might be some people listening thinking, you know, I don't know if it's possible for me to enjoy or participate in the holiday season in in activities that used to bring me joy Mhmm. Who could maybe hear what could be possible. And I was wondering as someone who works in this field, who navigates the murky waters of grief and and how to support people, what can people who care about people who are living in community with others or or you as a care provider say about the possibility of of life's not gonna necessarily look the same, but it it might be

There's little pockets of hope, maybe pockets of happiness. You know, I think that a lot of times the anticipation of the holidays is sometimes harder than the actual holiday itself. So that is something that we have heard families share with us. Wow. You know?

So I think that that's important. I think another thing that's really important to remember is that grief is exhausting. It it takes a toll on our body. And so giving ourself grace. Right?

Like, if you're not feeling up to doing all these fest festive things, giving yourself permission to read a book or to just stay home if you want or just to spend time with maybe a few of your close friends or family that you trust and and love and feel safe around. I think that really making decisions based on what you want and not trying to meet the needs of others. And the other thing is, you know, encouraging people that they will get through this. They will get through it. And but really to lean on others that they that they trust and feel support from.

You know, over at Ellie's Place, you talked about some of the programs you guys do and some of the holiday era activities you guys do, how prominent is is grief in the MidMichigan community? How many people do you guys serve each year?

So that's like a kind of a two tiered question. So there is Judy's house does a a study every year regarding the number of kids that are impacted by grief, and they break it down by state. And in the state of Michigan, one in eleven children will experience the death of a parent or a sibling prior to the age of 18. One in eleven? One in eleven in the state of Michigan.

So I think that that gives you a sense of the amount of kids out there in our community that have experienced grief or that are experiencing grief.

That's definitely more than I thought it was.

Yes. Yes. And so at Ellie's Place, we serve we're serving approximately a 165 families right now across our four nights of programming. So it's not uncommon for us to be meeting the needs of 50 kids a night.

Do you guys get any funding from the state? I I think you guys have a five k around Lansing and all that.

We have a five k at Jackson National Mhmm. On their campus every July, but we are then a 100% donor funded. And so I think that that's important for the community to know because we want to continue to provide free services to our families, and we can't do that without the support of the folks in the community, you know, reaching reaching out to provide that funding so that we can continue to do the great work that we do. You know, if anyone is interested in making a donation or if people are looking for specific articles on how to support a grieving child or teen, they can go to our website, and that is www.elliesplace.org. That's e l e s place dot org.

Is there anything on your I saw your beautifully color coded sheet during our conversation today that, you know, I myself I my grandma was my mom in my life, and and she passed two years ago. And so I I know it's different. It's grief looks different for everyone. But I was like, oh, like, last Christmas was pretty hard, so I definitely wanted to do this episode for anyone else that was navigating these waters. But is there anything that I didn't have the insight to ask you that you're like, Anna, this is what's so important to understand what we do at Ellie's Place and important things to understand about grief this holiday season.

Well, one of the things that I didn't touch upon about Ellie's Place that I think is really helpful for the community to be aware of is we rely very heavily on volunteers. Mhmm. Volunteers facilitate all of our groups. We have over a 100 volunteers that make a weekly commitment Mhmm. To help support the kids that we're working with.

So a huge thank you and kudos to all of our wonderful volunteers that come come to our center on a weekly basis to really make a difference in these kids' lives.

It sounds like from this conversation that part of, you know, handling grief around the holidays is having a little bit of a conversation with yourself or people you care about about, you know, how we're gonna navigate grief. But, you know, what do we do when when things surprise us? Like, what can be a surprise during the holidays?

Oh, so, like, when you're talking about, like, holiday baking or cooking Oh. Like, that can be that can be seen as a comfort or a stressor. So yes. So go with what works for you. Go with what feels right for you.

I am not a I am not a a chef. And I told you I I, you experienced know, the loss with my grandmother, most important person in my life, and she was a chef.

So what was it like for you last year on the first anniversary of your grandma's death?

I just missed her so much. She's literally my favorite person in my life. And it was weird how palpable it was because I honestly I was very upset. She died right before Mother's Day before, and there was I wrote a piece on women in the capital, the Michigan State Capitol led lawmakers who navigated motherhood while while also navigating being elected leaders. And I wanted to do it because I knew that there were some nontraditional moms in the in the legislature, whether that be, or not not necessarily nontraditional, but maybe not what everyone thinks right off the bat.

There was mothers via adoption, mothers who took over parentage of their grandkids. Yeah. So I was like, I wanted to celebrate all the different versions of motherhood, and this article actually just published right after she died. So I never got to show her the article. Oh.

And so I just feel like I had so much more love to give and somewhat like, we had so much more to do. Mhmm. But I'm not her, and I'm not a chef. So, like, what we what we did was shop. So I literally even I went to the to the mall after she died, like, an hour after, which might look psychotic.

And that's why I wanted to talk to you because I'm like, I think people will do funny things this holiday season, and it might work for them.

Yeah. It's like exactly. Like, there's no one thing that's really important is there's no right or wrong. Right? Mhmm.

Do what feels right to you and and make sure that you're not doing things to meet other people's expectations.

Yeah. What will work and what will help might not make sense to other people, it sounds like.

Yeah. And it's not like I said, there's no right or wrong. Right? Do what feels right to you. So I'm wondering what you're gonna do.

Did you did you continue some of the traditions that you did with your grandma, or did you guys change some of those traditions?

We honestly just it was kind of classic where we brought up all of, like, our favorite memories, but none of them were, like, big things. It was just she was she's a New York Italian with the funniest accent in the world. So we just were, like, making fun of each other in her voice because that's what she would do. She didn't know she was roasting you, but she would be like, wow. You're wearing that.

And so and we

just did that. And it's and thank goodness there wasn't really anyone. My family was very, very on board with just we're gonna do what feels right for us. We weren't we weren't gonna, you know, try to put on a brave face. We're like, we miss nanny.

That was the funniest person in the world and the nicest person.

Right. Yeah. So it sounds like she lives she leaves a really big hole in all of your lives. Right? Like, she sounds like she had such a great, strong personality that you just can't replicate.

Right? And so I think that talking about her and sharing those memories keeps the keeps her alive.

Yeah. I don't I think the little repetitive, but it's not gonna make sense to everyone. But if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to you. Mhmm. It's hard to make it through the holidays.

You you gotta do what you gotta do. Mhmm.

Yeah. It is. It's it's not an easy time. That's for sure. That's for sure.

And I think that our society puts this unrealistic expectation on people to make all these plans and buy all these gifts and cook all these cookies and listen to all the music, and it might not feel right to them. And so and and that's okay.

You know, as people try to successfully navigate the holiday season, meaning they're able to, I don't know, not fall apart at the dinner table, able to look at an ornament without Mhmm. Having to end their evening. As someone who works in this field, what would be a metric of success of, like, I I got through the holidays, but not just get through the holidays, but maybe even experience the some of the joy you were able to before the loss?

That's a really hard question to answer. No. Because how do you how do you measure success? Right? Like, that's a really big question, and I don't even know if it matters if it's a success.

Right? I think the fact that you made it through and you're still standing on the other side is really all that matters. You did the best you could with what you had at that moment, and and it's good enough.

That there are pockets of joy, but that means there's also pockets of

Yes. Crying over the cookie dough. Exactly. And and just allowing yourself to to feel those feelings. I mean, that is how we process our grief is by feeling our feelings and talking about our memories and talking about those hard things.

And I think that in our society, we are afraid to ask people about their person that died. And so I think that I think it's really important for people to be have the courage to say, how how have you been doing? Like, how are you doing today? And bring up the person's name that died. My dad died when I was a young adult, and I love when people say his name and and ask me to share stories and memories.

And it's been a long time since my dad died, and I still love to talk about him. And so people want to talk about their person. They don't they wanna remember, especially kids. Kids love to talk about their person, and so don't shy away from that. You know?

Have the courage to ask. You know, what was your dad's favorite memory, or what did your sister love to do, or what do you what do you miss the most about your your nana? You know? What smells remind you of her? Like, I think that welcoming those conversations is important, and tears might come because of it.

But guess what? That's okay. That's how we heal. That's part of the healing. You know?

That's part of the integrating the loss into our life is by talking about it. And that's why our groups are so powerful because these kiddos and these teens and these adults are given a safe space to come together and talk about what's been hard and what they miss. And that's how we begin the healing process.

This conversation has been so wonderful. I I this is an episode that I really wanted to do, so I appreciate you so much.

Yeah. I'm I'm so happy that you invited me to come and and talk with you today, Anna.

Oh, thanks. But yeah. Oh god. But I'm a junior for my grandma. She was the Grandma was Anna?

She was Anna.

Oh my gosh. I can just visualize her. She she just seems like she was just like this very confident, sassy Oh, yes. Greatest crime tell you whether you wanna hear something or not.

The greatest crime that could ever occur, is that a man would boss me around. The idea to her that, that someone could boss me around, specifically a man, would make her sick. My gosh. She's the funny she's funny. She was great.

That's why I'm like, there is it has never been painful to talk about her, actually. And it would be okay if it was painful at some point, but I she is the funniest person.

Yeah. And you got some cuss about her. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much.

But can you imagine, though, the amount of people that don't get the opportunity?

Yeah. Because you're right. Even if you mean well, you might not ask somebody about their person that they cared about so much or or they just had some impact on on their life because you can you can grieve people who you weren't even that close to. Yeah. Grief is indiscriminate and unfair.

Mhmm.

And it's very unique. And that's one of the things that I didn't say is grief is it's a very unique experience Mhmm. And unique to everyone, and yet it's all okay. Right? It's you know?

And everyone grieves at their own pace. You know? It's not about getting to the finish line.

It's strange that something that can be so isolating is really one of the things that out of all the experiences in life is the most unifying because we will all go through it.

We all experience it. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

And, again, thank you, Kelly, so much for this time today. And for listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this week's episode of East Lansing Insider and taking some time to learn about how grief can impact our lives this time of year and maybe how we can support each other. I've been East Lansing info deputy editor, Annalise Nichols, and we'll talk again next week.

East Lansing insider brought to you by ELI on Impact eighty nine FM. We are on the web at eastlancinginfo.news and impact89fm.org. Thanks for listening.