1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,720 < Intro > 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,640 - Welcome back to Count Me In, IMA's podcast for finance 3 00:00:08,650 --> 00:00:10,880 and accounting professionals working in business. 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,610 I'm Adam Larson, and today I'm excited to bring you 5 00:00:13,610 --> 00:00:16,440 part two of my conversation with Mark Herschberg. 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,440 In which he provides a helpful framework 7 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,460 for thinking about hybrid work plans 8 00:00:20,460 --> 00:00:22,869 and how you should approach finding most productive balance 9 00:00:22,869 --> 00:00:27,680 for individuals, managers, and teams within your organization. 10 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:28,640 In the interest of time, 11 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,040 I'm not going to list all of Mark's credentials, again. 12 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,840 Just high-level for those who missed the first episode. 13 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,340 Mark teaches at MIT, 14 00:00:35,340 --> 00:00:37,660 he's a serial entrepreneur and business innovator, 15 00:00:37,660 --> 00:00:39,590 and he's the author of The Career Toolkit; 16 00:00:39,590 --> 00:00:42,000 Essential Skills for Success that No One Taught You, 17 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,760 which I highly recommend you check out, 18 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,200 just follow the link in the show notes. 19 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,120 Okay, that's enough introduction. 20 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:49,950 Let's get right into another highly insightful 21 00:00:49,950 --> 00:00:52,120 conversation with Mark Herschberg. 22 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:58,840 < Music > 23 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,980 So, Mark, I want to welcome you back to the Count Me In podcast. 24 00:01:01,980 --> 00:01:05,080 We had a great time talking about The Great Resignation last time. 25 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,110 And today we're going to be talking about hybrid 26 00:01:07,110 --> 00:01:10,280 and hybrid work and what that means for organizations. 27 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,800 And, so, to start off, I know that during Covid 28 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,330 everybody went remote because you couldn't, 29 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:18,710 unless you were certain types of organizations 30 00:01:18,710 --> 00:01:21,040 that had to still work in person. 31 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,840 But many many organizations went remote completely. 32 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,440 And now as we're on the third year of Covid, 33 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,840 and people are coming back to work, everybody's moved to hybrid. 34 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,520 So what it really boils down to is what can we do 35 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,720 to be more effective in this hybrid model, going forward? 36 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,200 - That's a great question, 37 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,760 and there's a number of ways we can look at this. 38 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,790 But to start, here's four things to think about 39 00:01:43,790 --> 00:01:46,620 as you begin to return to the office. 40 00:01:46,620 --> 00:01:49,880 First, let's formalize the rules. 41 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,869 Often we have a certain way of working, 42 00:01:51,869 --> 00:01:55,520 and in our last episode, we talked about corporate culture. 43 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,480 Usually, it's not written down, 44 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,310 we just know this is how things get done 45 00:02:00,310 --> 00:02:02,040 on our team, in our department. 46 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,490 But we want to be more explicit about how we do that, 47 00:02:05,490 --> 00:02:06,520 and this is for two reasons. 48 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,320 First, it's a little different, this is a disruption. 49 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:11,920 Now, we had a disruption in 2020 50 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,920 when we said, one day, "Stop coming to the office." 51 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:16,760 And that was very disruptive. 52 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:17,900 We know what's coming, 53 00:02:17,900 --> 00:02:21,280 we can be a little more intentional and planned this time. 54 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,920 But also we have new people coming on board, 55 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:28,560 who aren't going to be around us as much to learn by seeing. 56 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,230 To get that osmosis, that feel for it by being there. 57 00:02:33,230 --> 00:02:35,960 So we want to be more explicit with the rules. 58 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,420 I don't mean employee handbook; 59 00:02:37,420 --> 00:02:39,420 I mean how we do things. 60 00:02:39,420 --> 00:02:43,730 When should you call a meeting, versus this could have been email, 61 00:02:43,730 --> 00:02:46,760 versus this could have been a Slack message. 62 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,840 When you create these rules get input, 63 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,870 you, the manager, you have enough to do. 64 00:02:51,870 --> 00:02:55,129 Don't think, "Here's one more thing I have to do." 65 00:02:55,129 --> 00:02:57,480 Get input from the whole team. 66 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,700 In fact, you can even potentially pass this off 67 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:01,520 to others to take the first pass. 68 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,280 Now, you as the manager will get the final say, 69 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:05,720 the ultimate decision. 70 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,470 But others are probably really excited 71 00:03:07,470 --> 00:03:10,860 to say, "Oh, I get to be a larger voice in this. 72 00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:13,640 You're asking me to take the lead on this, this is fantastic." 73 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:17,280 They see it as opportunity, whereas you see it as one more burden. 74 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,440 But, again, you will have the final say. 75 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,040 But that's to say you should really, as a leader, incorporate 76 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,400 the voices of the whole team. 77 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,720 Don't be afraid to almost be a little formal, 78 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,320 in terms of the welcome back. 79 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,250 There was a trend back in the .com era, 80 00:03:36,250 --> 00:03:40,200 back when companies would shut down. 81 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,610 It was very sad, these people you had worked with for a while, 82 00:03:42,610 --> 00:03:45,950 there was a shift, and they did something rather clever. 83 00:03:45,950 --> 00:03:49,080 They said, "We have some experts who understand 84 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,400 how to make a shift, we call them clergy." 85 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,200 Clergy are very good at you're transitioning 86 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,000 from being single to being married. 87 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,019 You're transitioning from having this person in your life 88 00:04:01,019 --> 00:04:05,520 to now they aren't anymore, and we have ceremonies to mark that. 89 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,879 You're doing a big transition 90 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:09,560 when you say, "Welcome back to the office." 91 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,320 You can just say, "Well, you're showing up Monday, deal with it." 92 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,390 Or you can say, "Hey, we're coming back 93 00:04:15,390 --> 00:04:17,160 and we want to welcome you back. 94 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,489 We want to recognize there is a formal change here." 95 00:04:21,489 --> 00:04:24,840 And that can be a ceremony and that can be a fun, good ceremony. 96 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:28,300 It doesn't have to be solemn, it could be a party. 97 00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:30,630 It could be more than just a happy hour. 98 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:32,330 Don't just say, "Well, we're going to do drinks, Monday, 99 00:04:32,330 --> 00:04:33,560 when you're back in the office." 100 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,640 Make it symbolic, make people understand and feel this change, 101 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,990 just as we do with other life cycle events. 102 00:04:41,990 --> 00:04:43,480 So I think you should create a formal one. 103 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,250 And, finally, don't be afraid to change 104 00:04:46,250 --> 00:04:49,560 what you're doing, this is new for most of us. 105 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,530 Now I've run hybrid companies before. 106 00:04:51,530 --> 00:04:53,600 I've run virtual companies before, 107 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,240 but everyone has been different, 108 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,590 and, especially, as we do it at a global scale. 109 00:04:58,590 --> 00:05:01,880 As we do it, not just our company, but every company. 110 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,230 Don't be afraid to say, 111 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:06,080 "Maybe we need to change this up, how we do it." 112 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,889 And that's okay, it's not a mistake, 113 00:05:08,889 --> 00:05:10,490 it doesn't make you look weak; 114 00:05:10,490 --> 00:05:13,590 it makes you look responsive to your employees. 115 00:05:13,590 --> 00:05:15,780 - And it also sounds like you're saying that 116 00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:16,820 when we come together, 117 00:05:16,820 --> 00:05:19,850 it should be more than just doing our meetings. 118 00:05:19,850 --> 00:05:21,040 Like when we come together make sure 119 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:21,920 we're meeting face-to-face. 120 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,480 It should be more than that, it should be more social activity, 121 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,840 so that we're engaging and connecting outside of, 122 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:31,680 "Hey, let's meet about this spreadsheet." 123 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,470 - Well, the ceremony I was referring to is when you first come back. 124 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:38,480 Maybe in the first week or two you do something formal 125 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,920 and that's probably more of a one-time event. 126 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,600 But you've brought up a very good point. 127 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,750 The initial thinking by many people 128 00:05:45,750 --> 00:05:49,120 is, "Okay, you're in the office two days a week, 129 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,139 three days a week, you really need to be productive." 130 00:05:52,139 --> 00:05:54,690 We know employees, you're at social or chat, 131 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:56,360 you surf the web sometimes. 132 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,440 But, "Hey, when you're in the office, come on, this is work time." 133 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,280 And, in fact, that can be counterproductive. 134 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:07,520 And part of it is because we do 135 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,560 a few different things when we are working. 136 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,360 One is the mechanical part and that's the producing the reports, 137 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,180 the writing the software, making the sales. 138 00:06:17,180 --> 00:06:20,720 We'll continue to do that from home or at work. 139 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,120 Some of that we do individually, some we have to do in teams. 140 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,480 Yes, keep doing that in the office and at home. 141 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,290 But then there are the aspects of the job 142 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:32,889 that relate to relationship building. 143 00:06:32,889 --> 00:06:36,000 It's a time we spend building those bonds. 144 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,580 And this comes partially from being in that meeting together 145 00:06:38,580 --> 00:06:41,600 for three hours, trying to come up with our new slogan. 146 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,759 But it also comes from the water cooler conversation. 147 00:06:44,759 --> 00:06:47,970 It comes from, "Let me show you pictures of my kids." 148 00:06:47,970 --> 00:06:51,130 It comes from these non-work activities; 149 00:06:51,130 --> 00:06:52,650 going out to get coffee together 150 00:06:52,650 --> 00:06:55,930 and then taking extra walk around the block 151 00:06:55,930 --> 00:06:58,449 on the way back, that's important. 152 00:06:58,449 --> 00:07:01,190 That builds the bonds, that helps create 153 00:07:01,190 --> 00:07:03,390 those internal networks that are so important 154 00:07:03,390 --> 00:07:06,360 to individual and company success. 155 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,400 And that's the part that's not as easy to do online. 156 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,120 Certainly, we can build relationships with people online. 157 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,440 I've had relationships with people I've never met, 158 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,560 but it moves faster and gets stronger 159 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,169 when you do spend time in person. 160 00:07:21,169 --> 00:07:23,289 So when we're together in the office, 161 00:07:23,289 --> 00:07:26,990 don't just focus on you have to do work only, 162 00:07:26,990 --> 00:07:29,360 do some of these social activities as well. 163 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,350 And, again, I don't mean happy hours, 164 00:07:31,350 --> 00:07:34,280 sure, do some of those, do some of the fun stuff, 165 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,160 but let that informal bonding happen as well. 166 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,600 It might not look productive in the short term, 167 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,800 but it is increasing long-term productivity. 168 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,460 - Do you think that everybody should come 169 00:07:44,460 --> 00:07:46,500 into the office at the same time? 170 00:07:46,500 --> 00:07:49,960 Or should there be like a very, depending on projects or people. 171 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,310 Because I know that it can be very effective, 172 00:07:52,310 --> 00:07:55,470 like certain people, "Yes, I'll come in the office three days a week, great." 173 00:07:55,470 --> 00:07:58,920 Other people are like, "No, I only want one or two days." 174 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,270 - Well, let's think about the different things 175 00:08:01,270 --> 00:08:04,720 that you get in and out of the office. 176 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,000 There are some people who say, "Oh, I love working from home. 177 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,620 I don't have the distractions of the office; 178 00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:11,750 I can finally get work done." 179 00:08:11,750 --> 00:08:14,020 There are people who say, "I love being in the office, 180 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:15,600 my home is so chaotic. 181 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,910 I've got a bunch of young kids running around 182 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:21,310 and, yes, there's a nanny, but they're always coming and bothering me. 183 00:08:21,310 --> 00:08:24,080 I love being in the office I can get work done." 184 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:29,080 So there's not going to be a one-size-fits-all from the start. 185 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,680 But, now, let's look at what people 186 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,560 get when they're in the office. 187 00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:36,840 And here, again, it can even vary by individual. 188 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,040 If you are 23 years old, recently out of school, 189 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,589 part of what you get is building relationships early on, 190 00:08:43,589 --> 00:08:45,990 is learning by watching others. 191 00:08:45,990 --> 00:08:50,020 And it's that mentoring that happens so much more easily 192 00:08:50,020 --> 00:08:55,480 and naturally or organically in the office doesn't happen at home. 193 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,130 If you're 52 you're less worried about that 194 00:08:58,130 --> 00:09:00,760 and you just say, "Well, I just have to get my work done." 195 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,329 And, so, they might have different motivations 196 00:09:02,329 --> 00:09:04,480 for how much time is in the office. 197 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,960 For the project itself, the nature of the project 198 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:14,240 comes down to individual work, teamwork, and communicating the work, 199 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:15,840 those are the three slices. 200 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,790 Individual work, obviously, can be done at home, 201 00:09:18,790 --> 00:09:21,800 or at work, or anywhere you're productive. 202 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,959 The teamwork, this is going to depend 203 00:09:25,959 --> 00:09:28,910 if you're trying to do something very creative, 204 00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:31,480 it usually works better in person. 205 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,760 And this is because of some psychological issues. 206 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,230 Psychological might not be the right term, 207 00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:39,709 but issues with Zoom. 208 00:09:39,709 --> 00:09:41,060 We know there's Zoom fatigue, 209 00:09:41,060 --> 00:09:44,000 and there are studies showing it has to do with the delay. 210 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,840 It's more taxing on our brains, 211 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,560 it's more natural when we're in the room together, 212 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:51,760 things flow faster, we're less-reserved. 213 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,780 And, so, certain types of meetings happen better there. 214 00:09:54,780 --> 00:09:56,960 If it's just a weekly project update meeting, 215 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,400 where everyone goes around the table 216 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,680 and takes two minutes to give an update, 217 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:04,280 that can probably be done just as easily from home. 218 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,080 So if it's that information, communication piece, 219 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:12,000 maybe that can be done by email or by a Zoom meeting. 220 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,720 So we have to recognize the different types of work that we do, 221 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,280 that will even vary over time. 222 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,149 If you have a team that has worked together for years 223 00:10:22,149 --> 00:10:24,579 and just does the same thing every month, 224 00:10:24,579 --> 00:10:27,959 you're just doing the books for a certain project, 225 00:10:27,959 --> 00:10:29,529 and each month you're closing the books, 226 00:10:29,529 --> 00:10:31,610 you're tallying the receipts, 227 00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:33,890 you probably don't need to spend a lot of time together. 228 00:10:33,890 --> 00:10:38,110 It's mechanical, repeatable work without a law of variation. 229 00:10:38,110 --> 00:10:41,089 On the other hand, if this is some new type of project, 230 00:10:41,089 --> 00:10:42,040 no one's done it before. 231 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,630 You have a team that hasn't really worked 232 00:10:43,630 --> 00:10:44,400 with each other before. 233 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,520 You don't have that high trust, 234 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,240 I'm not saying mistrust, you just don't have trust. 235 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,700 Being together more often might be helpful to build that trust, 236 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:56,280 to really talk through these issues and ideas. 237 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,040 Then as you move into the implementation phase, 238 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,560 you can think, "Now, we don't have to be in the office as much, 239 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:04,740 but when you're coming to the project completion 240 00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:06,330 and there's always a whole bunch of tasks 241 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:08,640 no one thought about, and you're under a deadline, 242 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,120 maybe spending more time in the office together is helpful. 243 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,170 So even for a given team, it can vary over time. 244 00:11:16,170 --> 00:11:18,960 So you just want to think about all these different factors, 245 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,760 for how much time is right for your particular team. 246 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:27,120 - Yes, it sounds like flexibility team by team is very essential 247 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,760 as opposed to a company-wide policy. 248 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,200 - Now, there's a secondary factor, of course, 249 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,649 which is, "Well, I do things, primarily, with this team 250 00:11:36,649 --> 00:11:38,680 and we're going to be four days for now 251 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:40,760 and then we'll be two days later. 252 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,700 But then I work sometimes with this other team 253 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,190 and when did they need me in the office?" 254 00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:47,170 When you're dealing with matrix organizations 255 00:11:47,170 --> 00:11:50,670 and cross-functional, it's a lot more complex. 256 00:11:50,670 --> 00:11:55,280 Then there's also the reality of you can say, "Well, it's four days for these months, 257 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,480 and that's two days for those months, and we're back to four days." 258 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,720 And people like regularity. 259 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,491 People like to know, "I need the nanny this many days a week 260 00:12:05,491 --> 00:12:08,779 or I need the after-school program this many days a week." 261 00:12:08,779 --> 00:12:12,560 So that could be if you're changing around a lot, 262 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:14,120 that could be a little much for people. 263 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,160 So you want to temper it somewhat and maybe you just have, 264 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,320 for example, a policy, "Hey, whenever we start a new project, 265 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,920 which is about once a year, we know that month 266 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,160 we're going to do an extra day per week 267 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,840 for, roughly, the first month." 268 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,520 But you don't want to change too much too often. 269 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:38,080 - Yes, for sure, definitely, so thinking about employees versus managers 270 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,190 I can imagine that there would be a difference 271 00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:42,000 in how they look at hybrid work. 272 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,440 Because if you're a manager, 273 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,000 you're so used to monitoring what your people are doing 274 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,400 and it's harder when you're hybrid. 275 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,680 It's harder when people are working from home to monitor those things. 276 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:53,320 And when they're in the office you can keep your eyes on things. 277 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,200 What is the difference there and how should they be looking at that? 278 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,360 - This is a really important dichotomy, 279 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,720 that I've been finding in interviews with employees and managers. 280 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,760 Because employees, and really it's the individual contributors, 281 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,180 they say, "Well, I have to do this. 282 00:13:08,180 --> 00:13:12,920 I have to produce something, and I generally do that by myself 283 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,720 for five questions, I can jump on the phone or send an email. 284 00:13:16,750 --> 00:13:20,080 I don't need a lot of time to collaborate with others." 285 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,880 And, so, they push for more remote work. 286 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,870 "Why should I even commute if I'm just going to sit there 287 00:13:25,870 --> 00:13:27,550 and work by myself, anyway?" 288 00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:31,020 And that's a very reasonable approach for them to take. 289 00:13:31,020 --> 00:13:34,510 The nature of being a manager means 290 00:13:34,510 --> 00:13:37,779 you need to see what people are doing. 291 00:13:37,779 --> 00:13:41,040 Now, part of that could be, "Give me your weekly update." 292 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,019 And, sure, again, we can do that by phone, or email, or Zoom. 293 00:13:45,019 --> 00:13:48,800 But some of management, it's understanding your people. 294 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,389 How they operate? 295 00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:51,800 What's working, what's not? 296 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,480 How they work with others? 297 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,760 You need to figure out, "Is this employee seeming disengaged lately?" 298 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,579 "If this employee is struggling, why is that employee struggling?" 299 00:14:03,579 --> 00:14:05,760 If you have an employee who's very supportive, 300 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,080 helping other team members, you want to encourage that. 301 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,320 These are things you see when you're in the office. 302 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,070 When I walk out of my office, I'm on the floor, 303 00:14:14,070 --> 00:14:17,630 I can see who's talking to whom, who's helping others out. 304 00:14:17,630 --> 00:14:20,720 I just naturally see it in a matter of seconds. 305 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,200 You don't see that when we're remote. 306 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,079 I don't see the Slack messages between two people, 307 00:14:25,079 --> 00:14:26,290 on a private channel. 308 00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:30,280 I don't see the calls and one-on-one Zooms they have. 309 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,070 And, so, as a manager, it's a lot harder for me 310 00:14:32,070 --> 00:14:35,660 to see the work, as opposed to the output. 311 00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:38,240 I can see the end results, I can see the reports, 312 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:39,680 but I can't see how it gets done. 313 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,360 And that really matters for how I mentor, 314 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,360 and manage, and promote people. 315 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,120 And, so, individual contributors don't always understand 316 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,640 managers have to do some of that and it's not as easy from home. 317 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,120 And, so, it's important for both sides 318 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,520 to recognize what the other is thinking and be responsive to that, 319 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,280 be empathetic to it. 320 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,520 - So it sounds like communication is essential. 321 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,720 With this whole thing we've been talking about, 322 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,700 communication is the key part that keeps everybody together. 323 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:09,240 So how should leadership, of organizations, 324 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:10,960 be looking at communication, 325 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,840 as they continue this hybrid model for the foreseen future? 326 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,561 I don't see anybody going back to the office 327 00:15:15,561 --> 00:15:18,000 five days a week, anytime soon. 328 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,080 - This is a challenge that we've seen as soon as we went remote, 329 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,560 and we'll continue in the hybrid workplace. 330 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,720 Let's just take a simple example, 331 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,600 if I need to stand in front of my team 332 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,160 and say, "Listen, everyone, I've got some bad news, 333 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,800 we're going to be laying off 10% of the team. 334 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,080 But, listen, it's not all darkness, there is opportunity 335 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,000 and if we can pull together 336 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,620 and work hard this quarter, here's what happens." 337 00:15:42,620 --> 00:15:46,200 I have to do a speech and it's an emotional speech. 338 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,860 I'm giving bad news, I'm giving good news, 339 00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:49,000 I have to rally the troops. 340 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,400 I have to make sure they don't go off the rails. 341 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,110 When I do this in person, 342 00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:55,880 when I'm standing in front of a room of 50 people, 343 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,760 I can read the room. 344 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,000 I can tell, "Are people upset?" 345 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,670 I can tell, "Are people excited about the future?" 346 00:16:02,670 --> 00:16:06,209 I can look in their faces, I can read the body language, 347 00:16:06,209 --> 00:16:08,601 and I can get a sense of, "How are they responding to it? 348 00:16:08,601 --> 00:16:09,940 Are they understanding what I'm saying 349 00:16:09,940 --> 00:16:13,080 and are they reacting the way I would hope they're reacting?" 350 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,640 And if not, I can address it in real-time. 351 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,410 When we're looking at that Brady Bunch screen, 352 00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:22,459 even assuming their cameras are turned on, you can't tell. 353 00:16:22,459 --> 00:16:27,080 You can't get that type of instant feedback. 354 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,759 And, so, what it's meant is that how we communicate 355 00:16:29,759 --> 00:16:32,680 and how we lead has to be different. 356 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,320 Yes, I still have to give this message, 357 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,000 I'm going to give it to all 50 people at once, 358 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,960 but I have to follow up. 359 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,840 I have to in one-on-ones with people or in small groups. 360 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,320 I need to repeat the message, perhaps, 361 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,940 partially because half the people were probably multitasking 362 00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:50,840 and looking at a different window and I didn't know. 363 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,800 Partially because they might not have resonated 364 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,200 with the message the way I had hoped, and I couldn't tell, 365 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,720 and I need to double check and then engage. 366 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,160 And, so, that takes a lot more time for me, as a leader, to do so. 367 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,840 And then I want to get their response to it. 368 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,940 And then we have challenges such as even if I do that in person, 369 00:17:13,940 --> 00:17:16,799 I do that on Wednesday, well, at least we're all in the same room, 370 00:17:16,799 --> 00:17:19,160 I can get the real-time feedback. 371 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,440 Okay, what happens Thursday when everyone's home? 372 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,770 I could see the next day when they show up, 373 00:17:23,770 --> 00:17:26,209 "Yes, they were sad about those resignations yesterday 374 00:17:26,209 --> 00:17:30,480 but are they showing up smiling? Are they showing up unhappy?" 375 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,300 I can't tell because I don't see them for another few days. 376 00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:38,520 So we're getting effectively less signals when we're hybrid. 377 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,299 And it's important to understand this 378 00:17:40,299 --> 00:17:43,240 and adjust our leadership and communication, 379 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,870 to over-communicate and to look for other ways 380 00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:48,440 we can replicate those signals. 381 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,110 But that takes a lot more time and effort. 382 00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:52,680 - It does take a lot more time and effort. 383 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,000 And how can you take this more time and effort, 384 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,760 and mentor your employees and also do your daily job. 385 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,560 Because you're managing your people, 386 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,000 but then you also have things that you have to do as well. 387 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,640 - That is the $64,000 question. 388 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,160 And when you look at the history of how we've operated, 389 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:19,030 we had very hierarchical structures throughout the early 20th century. 390 00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:21,360 We followed the military model and you had managers, 391 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:23,640 upon managers, upon managers. 392 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,200 What we saw in starting the '70s and '80s 393 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,330 was a flattening of the hierarchy, a gutting of mill management. 394 00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:33,490 And that continued into the '90s and 2000s 395 00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:35,320 because we could automate. 396 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,490 Because now we had all these great tools 397 00:18:37,490 --> 00:18:39,140 and, "Oh, I've got automated reports 398 00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:42,120 and it helps us all do our jobs faster." 399 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,400 We got away with a flatter structure, 400 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,360 unfortunately, I think we're going to see a shift. 401 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:51,040 Maybe it's not unfortunate, it depends how you look at. 402 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,440 But I think we're going to see a shift 403 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,670 that we are putting more responsibilities on managers 404 00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:58,840 in this hybrid workplace, 405 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,799 and therefore we're going to need, effectively, more managers. 406 00:19:01,799 --> 00:19:07,640 The number of people being managed per manager just has to be reduced. 407 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,630 We need more managers per employees, 408 00:19:09,630 --> 00:19:13,440 and that's going to be a shift we'll see over the next decade or so. 409 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:14,990 - What do you think the long-term effects 410 00:19:14,990 --> 00:19:17,440 of this hybrid workplace are going to be on people? 411 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,800 Especially, as we look at things like promotions 412 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,880 and looking at strategies or even DE&I. 413 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,340 I feel like there's going to be this long-term effect 414 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:27,800 that we can't see yet. 415 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,760 - That's a tough one, and we talked, in our prior episode, 416 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,679 about some, for example, the DE&I challenges 417 00:19:34,679 --> 00:19:38,720 that if you set a fixed number of days, 418 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,240 that's important because if you did a variable number of days. 419 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,480 The people staying home more, 420 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,160 the ones with more home responsibility, 421 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,700 tend to be women and underrepresented people. 422 00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:49,880 So they're going to be in the office less 423 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,460 and probably get promoted less. 424 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:54,200 On the other hand, if you fix it, 425 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,000 the ones who need to be home more 426 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,520 are probably going to leave for companies, 427 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,110 where it's a lower number than yours 428 00:20:00,110 --> 00:20:03,200 and you're going to have, again, a problem with your pipeline. 429 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,860 And, so, it's unclear which way this is going to move. 430 00:20:05,860 --> 00:20:08,539 I think we're going to see, as companies do, five days, 431 00:20:08,539 --> 00:20:12,240 four days, three days, two days, people will vote with their feet. 432 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,320 Not just DEI people, but people in general, 433 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:17,520 employees in general, are going to say, 434 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,160 "We really prefer this versus that." 435 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,030 For all we know, when we see teams doing, 436 00:20:24,030 --> 00:20:26,000 for example, Tuesday to Thursday 437 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,000 seems to be the popular timing in the office, why? 438 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,920 Because people want long weekends. 439 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,980 Are we going to discover there's not a lot of productivity 440 00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:37,680 on Friday afternoons and Monday mornings? 441 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,320 Maybe that's a problem. 442 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,120 Maybe we'll even find everyone says, 443 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,679 "Yes, but Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday traffic is bad. 444 00:20:44,679 --> 00:20:45,440 You know what? 445 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,240 Let's do Friday, Monday, Tuesday. 446 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,920 Because that way I don't have to worry about traffic 447 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,640 because no one else is driving two out of those three days." 448 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,210 I think we're just going to see effects, 449 00:20:55,210 --> 00:20:58,000 and secondary effects, and tertiary effects 450 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,320 as we're trying to adjust. 451 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,760 In physics, we think about this as a three-body problem. 452 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,880 One body impacts another, impacts another, 453 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,800 and it's very hard to calculate. 454 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:08,840 And I think that's what we're going to see 455 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,360 in the employment market for a while to come. 456 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,440 And I'll say even on top of all this, there's one other issue, 457 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:21,240 what I've said going back a year now, 458 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,640 we don't know what the market will look like. 459 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,760 People asked, "How long will hybrid work last? 460 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,760 Is this here to stay?" 461 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,000 Probably, yes, as we record this in the summer of 2022, 462 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,840 we're on the precipice of possibly a recession. 463 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,080 If it's a shallow recession or no recession, this will stay. 464 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,190 And once this becomes the norm 465 00:21:42,190 --> 00:21:46,280 for somewhere around two to four years, 466 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,440 it's likely to stay the norm. 467 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,640 There is a chance if we go into a deep recession, 468 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,840 and with all the geopolitical events, with war, 469 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,040 with energy, with supply chains, with return of Covid. 470 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,880 If this comes back and we go into a deep recession, 471 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,160 companies may say, "Five days a week, take it or leave it." 472 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,240 Employees say, "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" 473 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,040 Because the labor market has just collapsed 474 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,560 and that could undo what we've seen. 475 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,440 I think that's less likely, it would take a prolonged recession 476 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,520 in the next few years for that to happen. 477 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,200 But that still is a possibility. 478 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,440 < Outro > 479 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,920 - This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing you 480 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,120 with the latest perspectives of thought leaders, 481 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:33,040 from the accounting and finance profession. 482 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,640 If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in 483 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,000 for more relevant accounting and finance education, 484 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:44,320 visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.