WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.230 So pod club is a play on the idea of a book club, but of course, instead of books as the common text, we used podcasts. 00:00:07.650 --> 00:00:27.210 And what we found in that study which really struck us as so different than what we'd seen and what we'd participated in as classroom teachers ourselves, when it comes to book clubs or article studies or anything like that, our participants seem to relate differently to the ideas that were shared in the podcast episodes than I've ever experienced with printed text. 00:00:32.590 --> 00:00:37.240 Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:37.330 --> 00:00:40.630 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company. 00:00:41.230 --> 00:00:43.840 And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of J Pod Creation. 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:45.550 Podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:45.970 --> 00:00:47.560 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:52.570 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:53.110 --> 00:01:10.670 You are right, as always, Jen on that one, and as we like to remind you off the top, please check out HigherEdPods.com where we are building a directory of higher education podcasts and a community for higher education podcasters. 00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:20.105 Jen, we're a little over 900 higher ed pods in the directory now, and we're really trying to get to a thousand in the next month or so. 00:01:20.315 --> 00:01:22.865 I think there's a ton more out there that we haven't even uncovered. 00:01:22.865 --> 00:01:23.225 That can be, 00:01:23.435 --> 00:01:27.245 I know every time I turn a corner, there's like another higher ed podcaster. 00:01:27.275 --> 00:01:31.830 There's another network or another event, which is one of the things we're gonna talk about today. 00:01:32.690 --> 00:01:33.080 I know. 00:01:33.080 --> 00:01:37.520 I'm really excited about that because people are registering for the event as well. 00:01:37.890 --> 00:01:38.510 Oh, that event. 00:01:38.510 --> 00:01:38.810 Yes. 00:01:38.810 --> 00:01:40.310 There's that event, which is the Higher Ed Pod Con. 00:01:40.310 --> 00:01:41.405 There's so many. 00:01:41.405 --> 00:01:42.170 We're gonna talk about, 00:01:42.170 --> 00:01:47.960 But our guest today is talking about another event for higher education podcasters too. 00:01:48.020 --> 00:01:56.480 But on the Higher Ed Pod Can, we've got a lot of people registering and we started to get some speaker submissions rolling in, so go check that out as well. 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:02.255 HigherEdPodCon.com and there's more information there and you can register. 00:02:02.255 --> 00:02:06.525 But today we're chatting with Dr. Lindsay Persohn. 00:02:06.545 --> 00:02:12.905 She is assistant professor in literacy studies at the University of South Florida. 00:02:13.355 --> 00:02:22.515 She is co-host as well of a really cool podcast called Classroom Caffeine, and she's pretty much an OG. 00:02:22.515 --> 00:02:30.465 She's been hosting and producing podcasting since 2012, and it's really cool how she uses podcasting in her teaching. 00:02:31.095 --> 00:02:39.735 And she also is doing academic research around podcasting, so she is a really good one to chat with today. 00:02:40.035 --> 00:02:41.670 And she's starting pod clubs. 00:02:41.985 --> 00:02:48.035 It's something that is a simple idea like a book club, but it's podcasts. 00:02:48.335 --> 00:02:56.105 And I think that's something we're gonna see more and more because it's a way for us to all share knowledge and our stories, which podcasting is all about. 00:02:56.105 --> 00:02:57.935 So we're gonna get into that with her. 00:02:57.935 --> 00:03:00.605 So let's do it. 00:03:01.865 --> 00:03:04.985 Hello Lindsay, thanks for joining us here on Continuing Studies. 00:03:05.465 --> 00:03:06.545 Hi, glad to be here. 00:03:06.545 --> 00:03:07.415 Thanks for having me. 00:03:08.225 --> 00:03:08.525 Wonderful. 00:03:08.525 --> 00:03:08.585 Yeah. 00:03:08.585 --> 00:03:09.545 Thank you so much. 00:03:09.545 --> 00:03:10.835 We're so excited to have you. 00:03:11.165 --> 00:03:19.325 Because you also are doing a conference in the education space, EPOD, you've been part of it last year. 00:03:19.625 --> 00:03:21.425 You're gonna be part of it again this year. 00:03:21.485 --> 00:03:24.455 And so we wanted to get to know a little bit more about that. 00:03:24.455 --> 00:03:27.815 But before we do that, how did you even get into podcasting? 00:03:28.205 --> 00:03:28.415 Sure. 00:03:28.775 --> 00:03:32.885 So I host and produce a podcast known as Classroom Caffeine. 00:03:32.915 --> 00:03:39.205 The big idea behind it is that it's designed to support the translation of education research into teaching practice. 00:03:39.955 --> 00:03:44.105 And the idea for the show really started from my own experience. 00:03:44.105 --> 00:03:46.595 I feel like that's where a lot of podcasts begin. 00:03:46.595 --> 00:03:54.245 But as I was finishing my doctoral studies, I was supporting a very large public school district's library media services. 00:03:54.665 --> 00:04:14.120 And so as I was traveling between about 115 schools across 2200 square miles, I found I had a lot of time to listen, but the job did not allow me to have a ton of time for reading, reviewing, understanding and putting into action, um, the good work of education research. 00:04:14.510 --> 00:04:21.019 So I wanted a podcast that talked a little bit more broadly about how research can inform education. 00:04:21.320 --> 00:04:38.850 A lot of the education podcasts that I was able to find focused pretty narrowly, like on one particular research paper, one project, and I wanted to hear from folks who talked a bit more broadly about their work in education research and kind of what they were learning from a meta level. 00:04:39.150 --> 00:04:43.980 And I think the desire to do that really came out of sort of this abundance of research out there. 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:48.650 And you know, if you're just getting started on an education journey, journey in teaching. 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.600 How do you take all of that in? 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:56.540 How do you process decades and decades worth of research while you're also doing kind of the day-to-day work of teaching? 00:04:56.750 --> 00:05:04.250 So Classroom Caffeine, I ask guests one really key question and that is, what do you want listeners to know about your work? 00:05:04.520 --> 00:05:11.690 And so some of them do talk about specific studies, but lots of folks talk across decades of work in the field of education. 00:05:11.690 --> 00:05:19.795 And so you get kind of a distillation of ideas with lots of specifics woven into those conversations, and it's also a really storied approach. 00:05:19.945 --> 00:05:34.460 I always start with, you know, what moments in education have sort of led you to this work, and it's a great opportunity to get to know experienced researchers, new researchers, really highly effective teachers, and the work that they do and what they want the world to know about it. 00:05:34.700 --> 00:05:35.360 Two things. 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:38.990 Can I just say that first off, the name of the podcast is awesome. 00:05:39.170 --> 00:05:40.700 Classroom Caffeine. 00:05:40.790 --> 00:05:41.120 Love it. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:42.650 So clever. 00:05:42.890 --> 00:06:00.200 Secondly, and we talk about education as a whole through podcasting, but we never talk about how you structure the questions to engage with the journey of the people, because everybody loves to ask and hey, I'm guilty of it, but everybody likes to ask, tell us about your journey or tell us about yourself. 00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:06.920 What I loved about it is you said right there, what is the education that led you to that research? 00:06:07.070 --> 00:06:14.300 I ask about moments in education and it's really cool to hear people's stories because of course, you know what we share is obviously selective. 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:16.310 It's highly selective because it has to be. 00:06:16.610 --> 00:06:28.190 So many guests respond that reviewing the questions and preparing for an episode really led them kind of down this memory lane, this journey of thinking about what are the most impactful experiences. 00:06:28.220 --> 00:06:35.180 Some of 'em talk about things that happened decades ago in their own schooling experience, or in their beginning teaching or in their beginning path as a researcher. 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:38.060 So it's really neat to hear how those stories intertwine. 00:06:38.390 --> 00:06:46.790 And fun fact about the name of the show, it was going to be called Teacher's Ride to Work because it was designed to fit into a teacher's commute. 00:06:47.025 --> 00:06:52.575 But then we have this thing called the COVID Pandemic, where no one was riding to work. 00:06:52.575 --> 00:07:00.825 And so back to the drawing board on the name of the podcast because it just didn't make sense while no one was in fact riding to work. 00:07:00.825 --> 00:07:05.975 So we ended up, we ended up with Classroom Caffeine, and I do love alliteration, so, it works. 00:07:06.125 --> 00:07:07.895 The working title also good. 00:07:08.105 --> 00:07:11.165 Jen, we need to restructure how we start each of these episodes. 00:07:11.165 --> 00:07:12.995 I think I've learned something already. 00:07:12.995 --> 00:07:17.765 And what are we, five minutes into this conversation that we can apply to our own podcast here? 00:07:17.945 --> 00:07:18.245 This is great. 00:07:18.245 --> 00:07:21.875 Well opens it up and like to your point, is it's about the story. 00:07:21.875 --> 00:07:26.780 It's about getting them to feel comfortable that they tell you something unique and different. 00:07:26.780 --> 00:07:31.010 And that's why we podcast, regardless of what topic you're podcasting on, it's a story. 00:07:31.010 --> 00:07:32.450 That's why we're listening. 00:07:32.630 --> 00:07:39.800 I'm really interested in how you've incorporated podcasting into your teaching and your course materials and so on. 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:43.849 So let's circle back to EPOD after and just sort of keep going on how you're using podcasting. 00:07:43.849 --> 00:07:45.140 I think it's really interesting. 00:07:45.140 --> 00:07:47.210 Could you tell us a little bit about that? 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:47.780 Sure. 00:07:47.840 --> 00:07:48.110 Yep. 00:07:48.380 --> 00:08:04.849 So, uh, well first of all I'll say I have been fortunate to speak with so many scholars who have been influential in the field of literacies and, um, including, you know, our textbook authors, the authors of, uh, articles that our students read. 00:08:05.180 --> 00:08:10.789 And so what we've done is to embed many episodes of Classroom Caffeine within our coursework. 00:08:11.150 --> 00:08:25.369 And what we find is that sometimes it is a substitute for a reading because you know, we're able to give our students, and I mostly teach pre-service teachers and in-service teachers in their literacy coursework. 00:08:26.299 --> 00:08:39.274 So the podcast episodes whenever we use one as sort of a standalone with no readings attached to it, I find that sometimes it's sort of a just right level of information, particularly for undergraduate students. 00:08:39.484 --> 00:08:41.014 We want 'em to understand the gist. 00:08:41.014 --> 00:08:43.655 We want 'em to understand the story of the research. 00:08:43.984 --> 00:08:49.954 And you know, often we also use podcast episodes to introduce really complex topics. 00:08:50.224 --> 00:09:02.329 One example, we have a course on disciplinary literacies in our college, and that is for folks who are preparing to be teachers, kind of outside of what we might typically think of as like elementary education. 00:09:02.450 --> 00:09:06.290 Maybe they're, they're going to be high school teachers or guidance counselors or PE coaches. 00:09:06.530 --> 00:09:10.909 And in the state of Florida where I live, they're required to have some of their reading competencies. 00:09:11.270 --> 00:09:20.150 So in this course, disciplinary literacies, we talk about what disciplinary literacy is, but it's, it can be a little challenging to sort of wrap your head around exactly what that means. 00:09:20.150 --> 00:09:33.244 Like what do you mean by thinking like a historian or the literacies of history and we have a wonderful, very well known guest in the field, Elizabeth Moje, and she talks about this idea. 00:09:33.244 --> 00:09:43.595 She talks about how the field even came to be and how we connect with it, and how we can understand what disciplinary literacy is and how it supports learning, how it supports thinking within the disciplines. 00:09:44.044 --> 00:09:58.179 And what we find is that by listening to this podcast episode, our students launch into other readings and viewings and their work of the course in a very different way than they did before we incorporated the podcast episode. 00:09:58.379 --> 00:10:05.629 Like I said, it's a little bit hard to grasp, and the way that Dr. Moje talks about it, it just kind of makes you, you know, oh yeah, yeah. 00:10:05.629 --> 00:10:09.139 You know, you're kind of shaking your head and listening along going, well, that makes sense. 00:10:09.139 --> 00:10:10.099 That makes total sense. 00:10:10.369 --> 00:10:20.405 And it's, because it is a story, it's shared in a way that's very different from what our students took from printed work around the idea of disciplinary literacy. 00:10:20.585 --> 00:10:22.984 So we've used it as a replacement for readings. 00:10:22.984 --> 00:10:28.974 We've used it as a supplement for readings, and it seems to work very well for an introduction to complex topics. 00:10:29.304 --> 00:10:30.194 That's really cool. 00:10:30.464 --> 00:10:40.435 I think it's neat because sometimes I know, this is me too, we all have different learning styles and sometimes when we're reading we're not necessarily grasping the content. 00:10:40.774 --> 00:10:41.454 Not always. 00:10:41.474 --> 00:10:48.135 So like to have that other medium to be like, okay, I've read this and now I can like listen to it and see if it's the same. 00:10:48.814 --> 00:10:56.494 We also get feedback from students that they enjoy having something different to engage with rather than just articles and textbook readings. 00:10:56.734 --> 00:11:00.994 They appreciate the ease of listening, the ability to multitask. 00:11:00.994 --> 00:11:05.855 We know our students are often overwhelmed with their coursework as well as all the rest of life. 00:11:05.885 --> 00:11:15.095 So if you can fold your laundry while you're doing your studying, you know, I always say we feed two birds with one seed and it makes a positive impact on their learning and their engagement in the course. 00:11:15.425 --> 00:11:27.335 We were chatting with someone a few episodes ago, and I'm drawing a mind blank who it was, just talking about how evolutionary as humans for millions of years, we've heard oral stories. 00:11:27.575 --> 00:11:29.825 Do you think that's part of it a bit as well? 00:11:29.825 --> 00:11:39.740 It's just like we somehow just naturally connect with an oral story in a different way than maybe, as Jen was saying, sometimes we struggle a little bit with reading it. 00:11:39.890 --> 00:11:40.340 Totally. 00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:40.580 Yeah. 00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:44.420 I totally think we connect with oral storytelling traditions in a very different way. 00:11:44.660 --> 00:11:49.070 You know, I wonder if we maybe connect with it on kind of a genetic level right? 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:53.300 Because, you know, for many, many thousands of years we've told stories as humans. 00:11:53.300 --> 00:11:56.015 It's a major way that we communicate, right? 00:11:56.015 --> 00:12:10.175 If you think about even, you know, I do a lot of work in the area of children's literature and so much of what we tell children, particularly a hundred years ago, we tell 'em a story and we admonish them about what to watch out for in the world and how to act and how to behave. 00:12:10.415 --> 00:12:13.775 And I think that all those things really resonate with us as humans. 00:12:14.165 --> 00:12:16.685 If you think about babies, they start by listening, right? 00:12:16.685 --> 00:12:25.075 And so I do think that there's something cellular that we react to whenever we hear stories, rather than trying to process everything through written, visual text. 00:12:25.465 --> 00:12:41.060 And I think audio is just a clearer format because when we're texting, I think especially where everyone is today, where everyone's a little bit more sensitive because lots of things are going on, texting, you have no idea what the tonality is of that text. 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:45.980 And so sometimes people are taking things wrong and I think that can be said for also reading. 00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:53.055 Like when you're reading things you might not necessarily get what that author is trying to put across or what they're trying to teach you. 00:12:53.055 --> 00:12:56.475 And when you hear someone say it, you actually get to understand. 00:12:57.155 --> 00:12:59.585 I mean, that goes back to a theory in education. 00:12:59.615 --> 00:13:09.395 Lev Vygotsky told us that it takes many more words in writing to explain what we mean than it does to use kind of all of our senses of listening. 00:13:09.605 --> 00:13:17.825 The visual interactions that we see, you know, if we're talking with somebody face to face, their gestures, their body language, and also the tone, the volume of our voices. 00:13:17.825 --> 00:13:28.425 We use all of those things to emphasize ideas, to express sarcasm and really to shape a context that it takes many, many more words in writing to get to that point. 00:13:28.574 --> 00:13:29.535 Yeah, for sure, so. 00:13:29.625 --> 00:13:32.355 Tell us what teacher pod clubs are. 00:13:32.355 --> 00:13:34.125 That is really interesting. 00:13:34.125 --> 00:13:36.165 What, what are these, what are teacher pod clubs? 00:13:36.255 --> 00:13:38.270 Teacher pod clubs are fun. 00:13:38.510 --> 00:13:46.580 In the world of education, as in many careers, teachers are given a lot of professional learning and most often it's sort of this one size fits all. 00:13:46.580 --> 00:13:48.530 Everybody's gonna study the same thing. 00:13:48.770 --> 00:13:51.770 It's something that an administrator somewhere has decided. 00:13:51.770 --> 00:13:54.620 We bring everybody into a room, maybe have a guest speaker or whatnot. 00:13:54.694 --> 00:13:58.085 Or maybe we have 'em read professional articles or professional books. 00:13:58.505 --> 00:14:11.944 The team that I work with around Classroom Caffeine and some of the research that we've done, several summers ago, we piloted a study with a group of four teachers, who were, they, they were at a very small elementary school, um, in the southeastern US. 00:14:12.425 --> 00:14:23.090 And we brought them together, asked them what they wanted to learn about for their professional learning, and then we compiled recommended playlists of podcast episodes for them. 00:14:23.090 --> 00:14:32.090 So after each meeting they would get a list with links to two podcast episodes to listen to, and then we brought them back together to discuss what they heard. 00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:39.650 So pod club is a play on the idea of a book club, but of course, instead of books as the common text, we used podcasts. 00:14:40.070 --> 00:14:59.630 And what we found in that study which really struck us as so different than what we'd seen and what we'd participated in as classroom teachers ourselves, when it comes to book clubs or article studies or anything like that, our participants seem to relate differently to the ideas that were shared in the podcast episodes than I've ever experienced with printed text. 00:14:59.930 --> 00:15:12.660 In particular, so on Classroom Caffeine, we use first names, even though most of the folks I talk with our esteemed doctor this and doctor that, but we call each other by first names to promote accessibility and relatability to those stories. 00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:19.980 So what we found is that our teacher participants in pod clubs, they also referred to the researchers by their first names. 00:15:20.130 --> 00:15:29.765 They talked about their work in these highly contextualized kinds of situations that they also very readily related to their own work in education. 00:15:30.065 --> 00:15:50.015 So for instance, one of the episodes that we gave that initial group was with a wonderful literacy education researcher, Patricia Edwards, and she talked about parents as partners in schools, and we heard echoes of her language, I mean direct quotes in the conversations that teachers had. 00:15:50.345 --> 00:15:56.315 And it wasn't that they had the text in front of 'em, and they're searching for just the right quote, as we might with a book or an article. 00:15:56.675 --> 00:16:03.125 They were quoting from memory and they said, well, Pat said this, you know, and they sort of lay it out in a very, in layman's terms. 00:16:03.125 --> 00:16:07.265 And then they started talking about how they were going to apply those ideas in their own school setting. 00:16:07.565 --> 00:16:21.395 So what we found is that in pod clubs having that audio text in common, it seemed as though teachers were more readily able to envision how the education research might impact their own environment. 00:16:21.785 --> 00:16:31.455 We also found that everybody came to pod clubs having listened to both podcasts in their entirety, which we know is not always the case when it comes to book clubs. 00:16:31.665 --> 00:16:37.145 You know, sometimes someone's running in, they've maybe read the preface or they read the first chapter and didn't get to the rest of it. 00:16:37.385 --> 00:16:45.035 So that's the other neat thing about podcasts is you know what your time commitment looks like, and if you don't have that amount of time, sometimes you can listen faster. 00:16:45.245 --> 00:16:49.865 Whenever I listen to podcasts, I often listen to them at faster than like a 1.0 speed. 00:16:49.865 --> 00:16:54.860 It does help to kind of save a little bit of time and condense that message, but it's not for everyone. 00:16:54.910 --> 00:16:56.570 I was just going over stats with someone the other day. 00:16:56.570 --> 00:17:08.210 It's like people listen to 85% of a podcast, and it doesn't matter if it's a small podcast or a huge podcast, people are more willing to listen to 85%, opposed to a book. 00:17:08.566 --> 00:17:16.876 So our goal, our vision is for educators worldwide to engage in this platform to say, here's what I'm thinking about. 00:17:16.876 --> 00:17:18.196 Here are the questions I have. 00:17:18.376 --> 00:17:23.671 We have four of us act as moderators on that site, and we can say, have you listened to this episode? 00:17:23.761 --> 00:17:25.261 May we recommend this episode? 00:17:25.261 --> 00:17:32.461 And my real dream would be to also get our podcast past guests involved in pod clubs. 00:17:32.461 --> 00:17:42.811 Can you imagine listening to someone who you know is just this worldwide known researcher in education and you pose a question that's related to their field and they're the ones who reply? 00:17:42.931 --> 00:17:47.521 That sort of to me would be like the ultimate of our asynchronous online pod club. 00:17:47.521 --> 00:17:51.661 So we're in the process of making strategic moves to work towards that goal. 00:17:52.276 --> 00:17:53.116 It's really good. 00:17:53.116 --> 00:17:53.486 I love it. 00:17:53.486 --> 00:17:55.316 It's a great website you've got actually. 00:17:55.386 --> 00:17:57.526 So we'll put a link to that in our show notes. 00:17:57.526 --> 00:18:01.966 Thank the wonderful Stephanie Branson, who is a friend and colleague at Northern Arizona University. 00:18:01.966 --> 00:18:06.416 She's been our webmaster, um, since the start and she volunteers her time. 00:18:06.756 --> 00:18:07.696 No, that's great. 00:18:07.856 --> 00:18:08.166 Love it. 00:18:08.286 --> 00:18:12.316 So you mentioned in your last answer, asynchronous learning. 00:18:12.686 --> 00:18:15.266 Can you sort of just unpack that a little bit? 00:18:15.266 --> 00:18:19.706 I think that in, it's inherent in what you explained, but it's, it's interesting use of the term. 00:18:19.946 --> 00:18:20.366 Yeah. 00:18:20.636 --> 00:18:27.416 So we think of it as asynchronous on demand, tailored professional learning that we're able to offer with podcasts. 00:18:27.416 --> 00:18:36.471 As I mentioned, sort of a contrast to that scenario I was talking about earlier, where teachers are often invited into a huge room where everybody's gonna learn about the same things. 00:18:36.711 --> 00:18:40.971 And we as educators know that that doesn't always meet the needs of teachers. 00:18:41.001 --> 00:18:46.941 We push for differentiation for our students, but it's like no one's really thought about how to differentiate learning for teachers. 00:18:47.241 --> 00:18:52.971 So asynchronous, meaning you can tap into it at any time, it can be done on your own schedule. 00:18:52.976 --> 00:18:58.191 You can dip in and dip out sort of as you please at your leisure or as you need professional support. 00:18:58.491 --> 00:19:02.721 So asynchronous, just meaning that we don't all have to be in the same place at the same time. 00:19:02.951 --> 00:19:09.461 But instead, we can still interact with each other, we can still engage with other professionals kind of on our own terms. 00:19:09.461 --> 00:19:12.881 And I think that that's another, that's another part to this equation. 00:19:12.941 --> 00:19:25.181 You know, I've been in education for over 20 years now, and in that time, particularly in the United States, and particularly in my context in Florida, teacher autonomy has been eroded just again and again. 00:19:25.181 --> 00:19:49.771 And so I think one thing that we're looking to do is to build back in some of those autonomous practices where teachers get to decide what they want and how they want to engage because so often ideas and workflows and professional learning is really done unto teachers, and so we want to ensure that that teachers are also getting what they feel they need and on their own terms. 00:19:50.071 --> 00:19:50.611 That's great. 00:19:50.731 --> 00:19:52.951 I think that's a really great use of the term. 00:19:53.011 --> 00:20:16.606 If I think about some of the podcasts that we work with that are essentially the professor that is really focusing on his or her subject matter, expertise, I've kind of thought about it as it's a way for them to reach outside of their classroom and teach more broadly than maybe the, the 200 students that they have assigned to them over a semester. 00:20:16.606 --> 00:20:18.736 But you've taken it to the next level there as well. 00:20:18.736 --> 00:20:29.971 If it's not just reaching outside of the classroom and giving a larger exposure, it's how those people can consume it at their own pace as well, as you've explained there. 00:20:29.971 --> 00:20:31.021 So I really like that. 00:20:31.441 --> 00:20:31.831 Thank you. 00:20:31.921 --> 00:20:32.731 That's our goal. 00:20:33.451 --> 00:20:34.201 Yeah, that's good. 00:20:34.201 --> 00:20:39.971 So let's swing over to the UK and talk about EPOD. 00:20:39.991 --> 00:20:43.801 It's a conference and going to the second year if, am I correct? 00:20:43.801 --> 00:20:45.991 And it's education through podcasting? 00:20:46.171 --> 00:20:46.321 Yes. 00:20:46.351 --> 00:20:47.311 Is the theme of it. 00:20:47.311 --> 00:20:49.961 So maybe just give us a little bit of insight into EPOD. 00:20:50.131 --> 00:20:50.641 Sure. 00:20:50.701 --> 00:21:05.161 So actually last year at the inaugural conference, a doctoral student and research assistant I've worked with for the last several years, and I actually presented our pilot study on pod clubs and talked about how we are moving into other territory with pod clubs. 00:21:05.551 --> 00:21:09.781 So I first learned about EPOD through a book about podcasting. 00:21:09.781 --> 00:21:17.616 I was reading it's Ian Cook's book that came out, I think in 2024, maybe the end of 2023, about scholarly podcasting. 00:21:17.886 --> 00:21:23.736 And in some of the prefacing material, he mentioned EPOD, and I thought, huh, I've never heard of that before. 00:21:23.886 --> 00:21:30.696 So I swam over to their website, and at first I thought, I've missed the deadline, but then I realized. 00:21:31.156 --> 00:21:34.786 The uk, they do the date differently than we do in the US. 00:21:35.176 --> 00:21:35.208 Oh, that's right. 00:21:35.213 --> 00:21:35.723 That's right. 00:21:35.723 --> 00:21:37.006 Where the day is ahead of the month. 00:21:37.036 --> 00:21:40.576 And I still had about a week left to get an abstract submitted. 00:21:40.876 --> 00:21:47.506 Leah Berger, that Doc student and Stephanie Branson and I put together a couple of abstracts and sent those in. 00:21:47.536 --> 00:21:51.886 Leah and I went together to present not really knowing exactly what to expect. 00:21:51.916 --> 00:21:57.676 It's hosted at Morley College by Morley Radio in London at their Waterloo campus. 00:21:57.976 --> 00:22:01.426 When we went there, it was such a delightful experience. 00:22:01.486 --> 00:22:07.276 It's a fairly intimate conference in that there is time and space to talk with others. 00:22:07.726 --> 00:22:10.906 It's also a really diverse group of presenters. 00:22:11.671 --> 00:22:14.761 Not only geographically diverse, but also ideas. 00:22:14.791 --> 00:22:17.311 'Cause as I mentioned, it's hosted by  Morley Radio. 00:22:17.581 --> 00:22:26.096 So there is a lot of sort of technical kinds of production conversations, conversations about how, uh, radio and podcasting are similar or different. 00:22:26.566 --> 00:22:34.726 And of course others who are focusing on how we use podcasting to translate research, how we use it in education in a very broad sort of sense. 00:22:34.726 --> 00:22:41.596 So not necessarily from the field of education where I come from, but how we can use podcasting for educative purposes. 00:22:41.956 --> 00:22:44.236 So it's a really wonderful group of folks. 00:22:44.266 --> 00:22:47.356 In fact, I think Leah and I may have been the only ones from the US. 00:22:47.611 --> 00:22:53.041 But we had colleagues from Canada and Italy and Australia and all over. 00:22:53.041 --> 00:22:55.531 It was really such a wonderful experience. 00:22:55.681 --> 00:23:00.331 So wonderful that I wanted to help them organize the conference this year. 00:23:00.331 --> 00:23:05.311 So I asked if there was anything I could do to volunteer and have become a part of that organizing committee. 00:23:05.821 --> 00:23:15.421 But it's a great opportunity to think about podcasting, to think about not just the quality of what we produce, but also the impact and beyond. 00:23:15.571 --> 00:23:20.581 It's a really fun conference and I learned a lot and met some really wonderful people. 00:23:20.641 --> 00:23:41.751 One of the really unique things about EPOD is that, and you mentioned it when you're a contributor, but, uh, and you're actually sort of putting forward almost like a paper, not just a presentation, but do I have it right that the actual presentations are turned into an academic publication of sorts? 00:23:41.901 --> 00:23:42.141 Yep. 00:23:42.141 --> 00:23:49.911 So the present, everyone who presents is invited to submit a chapter for consideration in a book published by Rutledge. 00:23:49.941 --> 00:23:54.621 The first book, it's like conference proceedings, but it's not necessarily framed as conference proceedings. 00:23:54.621 --> 00:24:02.926 It's part of a series, and there are, podcasting and education between entertainment and education is the book series that this becomes. 00:24:03.166 --> 00:24:11.896 So yeah, everyone who presents is invited to submit a chapter for consideration, which is an awesome opportunity to share work and get that out there. 00:24:11.896 --> 00:24:17.626 'Cause I don't know about you all, but we've had a little bit of a rough go of getting some of the work around podcasting published. 00:24:17.751 --> 00:24:20.481 Because it seems as though people don't really know what to do with it. 00:24:20.511 --> 00:24:26.061 We don't quite know what to call it yet, or where it belongs, where it should be housed, you know, in our information systems. 00:24:26.421 --> 00:24:34.551 So yeah, it's really nice to have that kind of direct, direct path to publishing your work based on conference presentations. 00:24:34.551 --> 00:24:36.651 Yeah, it's a really wonderful feature of the conference. 00:24:37.021 --> 00:24:37.891 That's great. 00:24:38.311 --> 00:24:48.151 When you're saying getting published, you mean sort of in the academic world, like what you've just talked about and podcasting, academia, but also the research you've done around it, so on and so forth. 00:24:48.451 --> 00:24:48.661 Right. 00:24:48.661 --> 00:25:01.531 I mean, there is no journal dedicated to podcasting, so a lot of times studies around podcasting appear in field specific journals, like work around podcasts and medicine appear in medical journals. 00:25:01.561 --> 00:25:08.131 And you know, if you're thinking about something that's more methodological, it might be on the qualitative studies sort of journal. 00:25:08.371 --> 00:25:12.451 But there isn't really anything that's specifically dedicated to podcasting. 00:25:12.451 --> 00:25:20.401 And so this book series that Rutledge is doing with the support of the EPOD conference is a great opportunity to get things together in one place. 00:25:20.671 --> 00:25:31.261 Stephanie Branson, who I mentioned earlier and I did a scoping review of podcasting, particularly in education or how it's been used to educate and yeah, really all over the place. 00:25:31.261 --> 00:25:32.461 The field is super scattered. 00:25:32.461 --> 00:25:37.346 I mean, we had a lot of conversation about terminology and definition of terms. 00:25:37.346 --> 00:25:46.396 Because we don't even always call things by the same name, so it makes it really hard for a field to be cohesive in any way when we're not speaking the same language. 00:25:46.546 --> 00:25:51.766 We're not showing each other our work, so to speak, in journals that are familiar to everyone in podcasting. 00:25:52.006 --> 00:25:54.646 It's just not that organized. 00:25:55.036 --> 00:26:10.651 And then the other half of me says, maybe it shouldn't be, because podcasting is such a transdisciplinary, interdisciplinary kind of platform that maybe we don't have one place to put that, but sure would make the publication process a little easier. 00:26:11.431 --> 00:26:11.851 Yeah. 00:26:11.851 --> 00:26:26.041 I mean, not at that deep of a level do we see it, but just at a sort of institutional level, it's amazing how many times we've introduced fellow podcasters to each other at a university. 00:26:26.071 --> 00:26:36.901 We're finding there's a lot of podcasters at universities that aren't even sharing best practices, let alone down to that deeper level that you're talking about, which is research associated to it and so on. 00:26:36.931 --> 00:26:46.771 You know, we're trying to build a directory with the higher ed pods, and we've almost got a thousand higher education podcasts in there now, but it's just incredible, the more we look, the more we find. 00:26:46.861 --> 00:26:52.951 And if we could start pulling that together a bit more, and then there's so much more that you're talking about as well, too. 00:26:53.356 --> 00:26:56.026 Well, I think it's just podcasting is just still really young. 00:26:56.026 --> 00:27:00.406 Like anytime we go to the conference, they say we're only in their first inning compared to traditional media. 00:27:00.436 --> 00:27:05.536 A lot of people, I'm at networking events, they're like, oh, I didn't even know that there would be a type of company like yours. 00:27:05.596 --> 00:27:09.676 So it's like, I think it's just a lot of people and then some people are like, oh, that's really smart. 00:27:09.676 --> 00:27:10.216 I get it. 00:27:10.246 --> 00:27:15.736 Podcast is a very buzz word and people feel like they've been inundated with that word since COVID. 00:27:16.036 --> 00:27:18.346 And so I think a lot of people are like, it's saturated. 00:27:18.346 --> 00:27:24.286 It's actually, it's not, if you look at the studies, but it's just because people are like, oh, podcast, podcast, podcast. 00:27:24.286 --> 00:27:34.936 Well, and I think, you know, there's a pretty statistically significant information that tells us that a lot of podcasts don't really live on beyond the first couple of episodes. 00:27:35.146 --> 00:27:40.276 So if we say the market is saturated, there are a lot of starts, right? 00:27:40.276 --> 00:27:43.036 But there are a lot of dead podcasts out there, that's for sure. 00:27:43.576 --> 00:27:43.906 Yeah. 00:27:43.906 --> 00:27:43.907 Yeah. 00:27:44.926 --> 00:27:45.946 That's a great segue. 00:27:46.006 --> 00:28:05.116 I think one question I'd like to leave our great conversation with is, for those educators, researchers out there considering launching a podcast or even more so like, starting to use podcasting in their curriculum and their teaching, what advice would you give them based on your own experience of doing this for a while? 00:28:05.566 --> 00:28:09.536 So that's actually one of the presentations we're going to share at EPOD. 00:28:09.556 --> 00:28:17.446 We're gonna talk with some instructors, professors, about their decision to incorporate podcasts into students learning modules in particular. 00:28:17.506 --> 00:28:19.816 So I'll have more to share on that. 00:28:19.816 --> 00:28:25.446 But I will say that already we are hearing from colleagues that students appreciate the format. 00:28:25.506 --> 00:28:33.226 They appreciate that ability to multitask, that we touched on earlier for those complex topics that are hard to understand on paper. 00:28:33.406 --> 00:28:40.426 Or that you don't wanna give your undergrads a 35 page research paper to read when they can get what they need from a podcast. 00:28:40.426 --> 00:28:44.986 So it's about expediency of learning, it's about meeting learners where they are. 00:28:45.316 --> 00:28:54.211 It's about helping to improve understanding, you know, and podcasts sometimes get some pushback for inaccessibility to anyone who may be deaf or hard of hearing. 00:28:54.391 --> 00:28:59.721 But of course now we also have great AI tools that develop pretty decent transcripts. 00:29:00.001 --> 00:29:07.621 So you know, most podcasts I feel like have transcripts, and I ,think that's an important thing to look out for for instructors is just what's the accessibility look like? 00:29:07.981 --> 00:29:14.311 Does it require your students to download some sort of weird one-off tool or is it something they can get publicly? 00:29:14.791 --> 00:29:19.921 I think there's some really good stuff you're unearthing so far and there'll be some other great stuff I'm sure. 00:29:20.311 --> 00:29:28.351 We'll make sure all those resources you talked about sort of over the last few minutes, we'll put all that in our show notes too, so there's lots of great stuff you shared here today. 00:29:28.351 --> 00:29:28.591 Great. 00:29:28.591 --> 00:29:30.061 Thank you so much for coming up. 00:29:30.066 --> 00:29:30.406 Thank you. 00:29:30.406 --> 00:29:31.286 Yeah, this was great. 00:29:31.321 --> 00:29:32.641 Glad to be with you guys. 00:29:32.791 --> 00:29:33.601 Thanks for having me, 00:29:34.891 --> 00:29:36.481 Jen, that was a great chat. 00:29:36.541 --> 00:29:42.301 I really enjoyed talking to Lindsay, I learned a ton, I gotta say. 00:29:42.961 --> 00:29:50.911 Especially as we mentioned it when we were chatting, we need to start using that mechanism she uses at the top of all of her interviews. 00:29:50.911 --> 00:29:52.831 That just approaches everything so differently. 00:29:53.851 --> 00:30:09.986 Yeah, that's something I think about a lot and because of my broadcasting background, and not only that, just like listing a lot of podcast is I understand it's something that people take a long time to learn sometimes how to structure an interview. 00:30:09.986 --> 00:30:18.686 Like if you listen to people that have done it all the time in traditional formats like Oprah, they don't ever ask like, tell us about your journey or whatever. 00:30:18.686 --> 00:30:23.066 So you really wanna find a way in that's gonna open the person up. 00:30:23.096 --> 00:30:34.521 And when she talks about specifically research people light up and they, they kind of give Lindsay all the facts about their life automatically without her having to be like, tell us about yourself. 00:30:34.521 --> 00:30:41.301 So I could nerd out about that because that's something that I try to do with many of the clients we work with. 00:30:41.691 --> 00:30:47.481 But maybe we can try it because nothing wrong with tell us about your journey, but everybody does it. 00:30:47.481 --> 00:30:49.161 So I like us to be unique. 00:30:49.976 --> 00:30:51.866 Anyway, we learned a time ton Lindsay. 00:30:51.866 --> 00:30:58.976 It was great episode, and there was a lot of call outs and a lot of things that she mentioned, so we'll put all that into the show notes. 00:30:59.036 --> 00:31:00.386 Yeah, so there you go. 00:31:00.536 --> 00:31:06.356 Hope to see you at either EPOD or Higher Ed Pod Con in Chicago, and we'll talk to you next time. 00:31:08.396 --> 00:31:12.866 Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast for our higher education podcasters. 00:31:13.226 --> 00:31:16.256 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:31:16.561 --> 00:31:23.311 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 00:31:23.311 --> 00:31:31.921 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in higher education podcasts. 00:31:32.311 --> 00:31:41.161 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:31:41.506 --> 00:31:43.186 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:31:43.186 --> 00:31:49.516 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations around higher education podcasts. 00:31:49.876 --> 00:31:51.256 See you in the next episode.