WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:00.500 jethro: Hi! 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.390 Welcome to Artificial Education: Real Talk. 00:00:03.850 --> 00:00:11.580 I’m Jethro Jones and I’m sharing this episode from my podcast, Transformative Principal, on this podcast because I thought you would like to hear it, too. 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.100 I'm excited to have on the program today, Adam Geller. 00:00:15.130 --> 00:00:16.940 He's the founder and CEO of Athena. 00:00:16.970 --> 00:00:21.340 He's been on the program before in episode, oh, what was that? 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.700 Uh, 326. 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:26.700 So, uh, almost five years ago. 00:00:27.010 --> 00:00:28.140 Adam, can you believe that? 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:30.420 Adam Geller: It does not feel that long. 00:00:31.740 --> 00:00:32.840 Jethro Jones: Man, that's crazy. 00:00:33.660 --> 00:00:37.440 So, uh, he Edthena is a video coaching, uh, platform. 00:00:37.620 --> 00:00:48.080 And today we're gonna talk about some cool stuff that's coming out and, uh, it is called the, uh, observation co-pilot. 00:00:48.260 --> 00:00:51.970 So, Adam, tell us what this observation copilot is. 00:00:52.185 --> 00:00:52.475 Adam Geller: Sure. 00:00:52.695 --> 00:01:06.955 So at the highest level, and, and you know, we can talk about the why and how we even got this idea in a minute, but at the highest level, observation co-pilot is a tool to streamline feedback to teachers built for principals. 00:01:07.415 --> 00:01:14.755 So principals can take their classroom observation notes and with a few clicks. 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:24.110 Align those observation notes into rubric, aligned feedback that's ready for them to edit and then share back to their teachers. 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:27.810 Jethro Jones: Yeah, that's, that's awesome. 00:01:28.230 --> 00:01:32.450 Um, I've gotta share this story with you because I think it's gonna contribute to the why. 00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:43.860 I was coaching a principal a couple years ago, and she said that, um, she would, she was really falling behind on her observations, her formal observations, and it was just taking a lot of time. 00:01:44.520 --> 00:01:49.500 And I was like, yeah, that, that can be tough, but like, how much time are you taking? 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:56.100 And you know, I was thinking like 30 to 45 minutes for an observation would be a lot. 00:01:56.805 --> 00:02:11.265 And she came back and she said, well, it usually takes me, I do the observation, then I go home, I have dinner, and then from seven until 10 o'clock I work on this, uh, filling out the observation form. 00:02:11.605 --> 00:02:13.345 And I was like, you gotta be kidding me. 00:02:13.345 --> 00:02:14.225 There's no way. 00:02:15.100 --> 00:02:17.350 That is that you're actually spending that long. 00:02:17.770 --> 00:02:19.030 And she said, I'm serious. 00:02:19.050 --> 00:02:21.710 That's how long it really takes me for every observation I do. 00:02:22.090 --> 00:02:29.150 And I was like, that cannot be, how can you, how can you ever accomplish everything that you need to when it's taking that long? 00:02:29.730 --> 00:02:32.150 And she's like, well, I've gotta do it in this certain way. 00:02:32.250 --> 00:02:34.470 And there are these certain formats that you gotta follow. 00:02:34.730 --> 00:02:36.470 And it was in New York State. 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:42.750 And I was like, I still don't believe you, . You gotta show me and, and walk me through what you do. 00:02:42.750 --> 00:02:43.470 And so she did. 00:02:44.165 --> 00:02:46.145 And, um, and I couldn't believe it. 00:02:46.405 --> 00:02:52.225 We spent, uh, 45 minutes on a call and I said, there's no way you can keep going down this road. 00:02:52.405 --> 00:02:54.545 You can't, this is not sustainable. 00:02:54.965 --> 00:02:58.745 And then I helped coach her on how to do it better and, and figure it out. 00:02:58.745 --> 00:02:59.585 And she got it down. 00:03:00.265 --> 00:03:07.235 I. To, uh, just an hour that she was spending, and I still felt like that was way too long to be spending on one observation. 00:03:07.335 --> 00:03:11.315 So that's, that's a little bit of what I perceive as the why. 00:03:11.315 --> 00:03:14.635 What, what led you to this in your, in your circumstance? 00:03:14.790 --> 00:03:18.580 Adam Geller: Well, That story rings really true to what we were hearing. 00:03:18.640 --> 00:03:19.140 In fact. 00:03:19.720 --> 00:03:25.780 So the background of how we came up with this as an idea is that we started just talking to principals. 00:03:27.030 --> 00:03:38.690 Asking them, Hey, where are there pain points in the process of observing teachers and trying to figure out if there was, you know, some way that we could create value for them. 00:03:39.430 --> 00:03:43.450 And pretty quickly in those interviews, and these were principles we didn't know, by the way. 00:03:43.910 --> 00:03:46.370 Um, they were, they were new to us. 00:03:46.870 --> 00:04:06.645 Uh, we started to very quickly see this pattern emerge across them where they would be talking about how . You know, the real challenge is the fact that they, just like you were telling that story, they go in, they do their 30 minute observation, and they're spending an hour, an hour and a half on the paperwork, right? 00:04:06.915 --> 00:04:12.015 It's not about . Their desire to provide high quality feedback to teachers. 00:04:12.405 --> 00:04:25.375 It's about the struggle that they're having getting this, the, the notes and the thinking that they have down on paper into, as you were saying, just the right perfect format so that it could go into the form the very certain way. 00:04:26.515 --> 00:04:31.935 And so that's the kind of way that we got into this space. 00:04:31.935 --> 00:04:35.770 Thinking about . Uh, you know, a tool for principals. 00:04:35.990 --> 00:04:50.050 Um, it was, it was funny actually in the process of, of kind of uncovering this as we realized, you know, first of all, you know, this is very in line with our ethos of a company in terms of streamlining feedback to teachers. 00:04:50.750 --> 00:04:59.740 Um, so we didn't feel like this was, you know, astray from, from what we . We know about and what we focus on, but we we're thinking about it generally and we're like, wow, you know what? 00:05:00.280 --> 00:05:03.380 Not many people build tools for principals. 00:05:03.530 --> 00:05:08.100 There's a lot of people that build tools for teachers in classrooms, very rightly. 00:05:08.540 --> 00:05:15.780 A lot of tools for students to use, uh, but not a lot of tools to help principals do their jobs. 00:05:16.520 --> 00:05:24.625 Um, and, you know, get them some time back in the day because . I, you know, I think about that principle you were just describing. 00:05:24.685 --> 00:05:40.715 If we could help that principal take the process to, from today, from an hour down to 20 minutes, you know, she now has 40 more minutes to spend during the day on high value, high impact interactions inside of the building. 00:05:41.095 --> 00:05:42.755 And that's what I think we would all say. 00:05:42.755 --> 00:05:43.995 We want principals to be able to do. 00:05:45.860 --> 00:05:54.470 Jethro Jones: Well, and the thing is, with these, um, reports and, and observation forms and things that need to be filled out, nobody ever reads them. 00:05:54.610 --> 00:05:56.270 Nobody ever pays attention to them. 00:05:56.850 --> 00:06:03.510 And you guys are really in the business of getting the right feedback to teachers so that they can improve their practice. 00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:12.270 And, and so the, the issue is, you know, essentially what teachers often do is they say, what score did I get? 00:06:12.665 --> 00:06:14.725 And if it was good, then I don't really care. 00:06:15.065 --> 00:06:17.485 And if it wasn't good, then I really care a lot. 00:06:17.495 --> 00:06:17.845 Right. 00:06:18.425 --> 00:06:24.725 And so, so how do you, how do you find that balance where that is really the reality that people are dealing with? 00:06:24.725 --> 00:06:27.165 Because everybody is busy and has a lot on their plates. 00:06:27.610 --> 00:06:27.900 Adam Geller: Sure. 00:06:28.140 --> 00:06:44.240 I mean, look, there are lots of different types of observations that happen throughout the year, and we were reminded of this when we were talking to the principals because, you know, okay, they've got their formal . Observations for an evaluation process, but they've got their informals and they've got their walkthroughs. 00:06:44.660 --> 00:06:55.440 So, you know, I do think there's more than one type of moment where feedback can be generated for teachers, um, and make it valuable for them. 00:06:56.100 --> 00:07:12.105 Um, one of the things that was a big focus for us as we went into this project, um, is making sure that in addition to taking . The As one, uh, tester said my, her chicken scratch notes, right? 00:07:12.105 --> 00:07:18.385 So taking the chicken scratch notes and turning them into this paragraph ready, you know, prose was that. 00:07:18.525 --> 00:07:34.265 In addition to that, we're able to generate ideas to consider and we felt comfortable doing this because, uh, you know, using the kind of AI tools under the hood that we have available, uh, we're confident that we can get 00:07:34.930 --> 00:07:37.190 Pretty close to good ideas every time. 00:07:37.340 --> 00:07:37.620 Yeah. 00:07:38.415 --> 00:07:41.265 That said, of course, this is not going straight to a teacher. 00:07:41.455 --> 00:07:45.865 This is really helping that principal provide high quality ideas to the teachers. 00:07:46.325 --> 00:07:50.905 So, you know, your question was how do we make sure this is meaningful, that this is something useful? 00:07:51.445 --> 00:08:04.025 Uh, it it, you know, in addition to all of the kind of formal language, you know, at nine 15 I saw this, and at nine 20 this thing happened and it was related to this particular type of teaching skill. 00:08:04.605 --> 00:08:05.425 In addition to that. 00:08:06.190 --> 00:08:16.770 The, the principals are able to kind of get their creative juices flowing with some ideas that they can offer back to their teachers to make this usable, right. 00:08:16.770 --> 00:08:17.370 And useful. 00:08:17.830 --> 00:08:25.340 Um, I think there's one other thing, one other thing that is, uh, interesting that we heard about the, the process. 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:43.285 You know, some states, of course, they have . Um, some rules about how fast you have to turn around the feedback to teachers, which makes it very difficult for principals given anything that might be going on during the day, or it might limit them to only doing one observation a day because of the, the kind of, uh, workload that you described. 00:08:43.905 --> 00:08:47.765 Um, but it is that timeliness of the feedback, right? 00:08:48.305 --> 00:08:50.765 The, the ability to observe today. 00:08:51.595 --> 00:09:04.895 And get feedback to the teacher today transforms even that most formal of observations into something that, you know, means something to me as the teacher because I'm not two weeks down the road teaching something else. 00:09:07.025 --> 00:09:07.315 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:09:07.585 --> 00:09:10.435 What was it that, what lesson was, were you observing? 00:09:10.435 --> 00:09:13.475 Because we all know they just kind of blend together, you know? 00:09:13.655 --> 00:09:33.090 And, and if you don't get that feedback that day, it makes it really difficult for you to say, oh yeah, I remember exactly what was going on because I. There's, there's just so much, and, and unlike, you know, people love to make the analogy of, of sports and teaching, but the difference is, is that with teaching every single day is game day. 00:09:33.350 --> 00:09:37.530 So you don't get the practice reps in between, like athletes do. 00:09:37.830 --> 00:09:53.800 You have game day every single day, and you are on the clock, you're on the stage, you're, you're on the field every single day and it's not something that you can, like . Pause and say, oh yeah, let's, let's try this different way and see what happens. 00:09:53.860 --> 00:09:56.720 You gotta make those decisions like in the moment right away. 00:09:57.130 --> 00:09:57.410 Adam Geller: Right. 00:09:57.550 --> 00:10:01.730 And you know, also for teachers, not only is a game day every day, but every day is a different game. 00:10:02.790 --> 00:10:04.690 , you know, the lesson keeps changing. 00:10:04.950 --> 00:10:11.010 The students have something else, you know, impacting whatever's, you know, going on for them inside their heads, right? 00:10:11.010 --> 00:10:12.010 It's different every day. 00:10:12.630 --> 00:10:16.130 Um, you know, something that comes to mind for me here. 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:29.320 Uh, you know, thinking about, you know, this podcast and, and your audience, and I think there's a question of, well, how is streamlining the observation process, uh, how is that transformative? 00:10:29.570 --> 00:10:29.920 Right? 00:10:30.420 --> 00:10:41.840 Um, but you know, when I think about it, and I, I think about, I imagine the types of principles that, that listen to this podcast regularly, they're the types of principles who see themselves as instructional leaders. 00:10:42.335 --> 00:10:54.820 They're the types of principals who don't want to be pushing paper around, and they want to be finding the ways that unlock the full potential of their teachers to have the greatest impact with their students. 00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:10.700 And so, yes, streamlining feedback means that we save the principals time during the day, but as we said before, it means that they get that feedback to the teacher so much faster in all scenarios that suddenly every visit. 00:11:11.505 --> 00:11:20.245 Can be, um, something that you know makes a difference and that teachers can feel good about because at least they got something out of it, right? 00:11:20.355 --> 00:11:24.445 Even if they didn't want you to come, at least they got something out of it to help them do better tomorrow. 00:11:25.890 --> 00:11:36.580 Jethro Jones: Yeah, that's, that's really important and that's what makes those, uh, conversations and those observations valuable is, is the teacher actually being able to get something out of it? 00:11:37.090 --> 00:11:41.540 It's, it's not about them getting a final evaluation score or any of that kind of stuff. 00:11:42.650 --> 00:11:50.470 Uh, every teacher that I know who matters is really about how do I improve my teaching? 00:11:50.610 --> 00:11:53.510 That's really what they want to do is be better teachers. 00:11:53.530 --> 00:11:58.310 And when principals can do things that help them with that, then that is incredibly powerful. 00:11:58.970 --> 00:12:29.890 Um, one of the things that I want to talk about here is a lot of problems with AI tools is that they're not . Aware of the context in which, uh, teachers are, or principals are working and existing and they don't know like, what really matters in my school or in my district, or even in my state, uh, as much as there is information out there, it, what I tell people all the time is people will say, can, can AI do this? 00:12:30.110 --> 00:12:31.570 And my answer's always, yes, it can. 00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:34.420 But the question is how much can it do? 00:12:34.680 --> 00:12:42.380 So, you know, somebody does a, people do these videos and stuff all the time where they , they do these demonstrations and it's all well and good. 00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:44.150 That it can do that. 00:12:44.850 --> 00:12:54.110 But when you get down to brass tack and you actually look at it, it's actually not very good at specific things unless you know exactly what you're looking for. 00:12:54.450 --> 00:12:54.750 You know? 00:12:54.850 --> 00:12:57.590 So can it write notes on a teacher observation? 00:12:58.090 --> 00:12:58.310 Yes. 00:12:58.610 --> 00:13:05.950 But how good are they and how aligned are they with, with my context and the state and the district and the, the priorities that we have? 00:13:06.370 --> 00:13:10.230 How have you adapted that and, and made it so that it does understand that context? 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:12.650 Adam Geller: Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. 00:13:12.770 --> 00:13:24.590 I mean, generally, overall thinking about . , you know, how do these kind of foundational technologies layer, uh, a perspective into, you know, what the outputs will be? 00:13:25.210 --> 00:13:30.830 You know, from our end, how we thought about this is, first of all, we're, um. 00:13:32.985 --> 00:13:45.385 I, I think we need to remember that we're not kind of going to the computer and saying, uh, you know, Hey computer, please generate an observation notes, set of notes for Jethro. 00:13:45.475 --> 00:13:45.825 Right? 00:13:46.205 --> 00:13:55.385 Uh, we are taking those human powered notes from the principal exactly that they would take the notes today. 00:13:56.005 --> 00:14:14.670 Uh, those are the notes we're taking, and so those notes inherently highlight . What's important through that lens of the context, it inherently has more information about the particular things that are a priority to our building or our district right now, uh, than not. 00:14:15.050 --> 00:14:29.790 And so we have, uh, a hundred percent leaned on the information that's provided by the principal, and our job is really to take that information and essentially reorganize it. 00:14:30.475 --> 00:14:42.931 So we're not trying to, yeah, we're not trying to fill in any blanks here because unless you wrote down that, uh, a student said a certain thing, you know, the, the algorithms shouldn't invent that information. 00:14:43.031 --> 00:14:50.571 So I think that that's been a, a, a big piece of the, the shaping of the outputs for the principles is really. 00:14:51.131 --> 00:14:55.776 Taking their information and applying it, um, as evidence to the various categories. 00:14:56.196 --> 00:15:15.116 Now, I'll tell you one place where I think that the computer can do it, uh, maybe . More comprehensively than a principal who is not spending three hours doing this work each time is that the computer doesn't think, oh, I already used that student quote in section one. 00:15:15.176 --> 00:15:22.556 So I don't need, you know, the, I don't have it available anymore to put into section four for a different style of evidence. 00:15:22.776 --> 00:15:31.076 But the computer's job is to say, okay, from the observation notes, exactly what evidence do we have of a listening student thinking. 00:15:31.721 --> 00:15:39.501 And separately, what evidence do we have around, uh, creating a welcoming environment or whatever the, the kind of indicators might be. 00:15:40.001 --> 00:15:45.461 And so at the end of the day, I, I think, um, you know, that's how we've approached it. 00:15:45.781 --> 00:15:49.901 I think also, you know, this is a system to help a principal create a first draft. 00:15:50.641 --> 00:16:05.411 We are not, um, asserting, nor would we suggest that a principal . You know, clicks the, the buttons inside of our platform and then copy and paste it over to a email for a teacher. 00:16:05.411 --> 00:16:10.411 Because at the end of the day, it has to represent what the principal believes happened in that classroom during that lesson. 00:16:10.991 --> 00:16:15.771 Um, and so, you know, we are keeping the human in the loop all throughout this process. 00:16:18.111 --> 00:16:35.491 Jethro Jones: Yeah, that piece is really important and so many of the AI tools try to take the human out of it, and what I appreciate is, as with many things that you've done over the years, is you're trying to keep the human in it and, but just make it . Easier and faster for them to do the good work that they're trying to do. 00:16:36.689 --> 00:16:42.989 now you mentioned before, uh, we started recording that this is something that you're offering for free for all principals. 00:16:42.989 --> 00:16:43.869 Can you tell us about that 00:16:44.129 --> 00:16:44.419 Adam Geller: Yeah. 00:16:44.719 --> 00:16:50.139 So, um, just in case somebody's listening to this five years from now, it's currently spring 2025. 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.779 Uh, so no telling what the future holds 'cause it does cost money to operate this service. 00:16:55.089 --> 00:17:03.699 However, right now, spring 2025, and the reason why we are talking today is we are just excited for principles to log in. 00:17:04.139 --> 00:17:06.719 And use this for absolutely no cost. 00:17:07.699 --> 00:17:13.679 We wanna see what happens when the listeners of your program find out about this and use it. 00:17:13.829 --> 00:17:23.319 Hopefully they have the great reactions and send us really nice emails that we've been getting some from some principals already, but do they share it with their colleagues who didn't listen to your podcast? 00:17:23.979 --> 00:17:25.879 Um, because, um. 00:17:27.019 --> 00:17:35.289 We're a small organization, we're not going to, uh, spin up some sales process to find all the principles in the world and convince them to give us money. 00:17:35.869 --> 00:17:46.649 Um, so we just wanna see how they use it, what impact it has, if there's, if we're saving them time, um, and what else it needs to do in order to create lots of value for them. 00:17:47.309 --> 00:17:48.409 And, uh, yeah. 00:17:48.764 --> 00:17:51.689 That all they need to do to sign up is use their district email. 00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:58.889 So you can't use your Gmail or anything like that, but you go to observation copilot.com and you get started for free. 00:18:01.554 --> 00:18:02.834 Jethro Jones: I mean, that sounds pretty easy. 00:18:03.254 --> 00:18:06.674 And what's great also is that you've got, uh, the state. 00:18:07.284 --> 00:18:14.584 . Um, rubrics and things already loaded in there because you've been doing this for a while, so there's already stuff in there. 00:18:14.684 --> 00:18:22.104 So if you're, if you are new to Athena, then uh, the, the work's already been done to have those things there. 00:18:22.124 --> 00:18:23.304 Do you wanna say anything else about that? 00:18:23.834 --> 00:18:31.524 Adam Geller: Yeah, I, I mean, the question of the frameworks is a really good one because, um, you know, imagine you're a teacher in Massachusetts. 00:18:31.674 --> 00:18:34.524 Well, every school in Massachusetts uses the same framework. 00:18:34.884 --> 00:18:37.394 I. To talk about teaching for the purpose of observations. 00:18:37.974 --> 00:18:43.354 It would be really silly if we asked every single teacher in Massachusetts to enter that framework over and over again. 00:18:43.894 --> 00:18:50.314 So, um, we do already have that framework inside of our system, but our goal is to make it easy to find. 00:18:50.494 --> 00:18:53.234 And once you select it, you know it's auto selected again for you in the future. 00:18:54.094 --> 00:19:01.479 Um, because, you know, like you said before, this is about saving time, making it easy, making it, uh, . Low friction. 00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:05.679 You know, that's a, that's a way to describe it for everyone to just get going. 00:19:06.179 --> 00:19:09.559 Um, and you don't have to change your process to, to be able to make use of this. 00:19:09.979 --> 00:19:14.999 If, if you like taking notes, um, you know, in your drafts inside of Outlook. 00:19:15.149 --> 00:19:15.679 Okay, great. 00:19:16.179 --> 00:19:16.919 Do that still. 00:19:17.499 --> 00:19:19.079 Um, and then copy and paste 'em in. 00:19:19.609 --> 00:19:40.709 Or if you want to use our tool to take the notes, uh, we built a preacher that was based on the feedback, which you might find really cool and helpful, uh, because when you open it up to start an observation and it's 9 0 2 and you start taking your notes, it actually puts a timestamp in there at 9 0 2 and then you hit enter and because at 9 0 4 something else happened, and then you hit enter and at nine 10 something happened. 00:19:40.929 --> 00:19:44.989 So it just automatically logs all the details that you find throughout that lesson. 00:19:45.259 --> 00:19:47.029 Automatically with a timestamp. 00:19:47.449 --> 00:20:02.029 So then at the end, all that evidence is really precise and exact right at, you know, literally at 9 0 4 this thing happened, uh, is now the level of detail that can, can get into the notes if you know, if that's the kind of way you want to take notes in our system. 00:20:03.624 --> 00:20:04.394 Jethro Jones: Yeah, that's awesome. 00:20:04.824 --> 00:20:07.474 Alright, well observation copilot.com. 00:20:07.584 --> 00:20:10.514 Adam, thank you so much for being part of transformative principle. 00:20:10.514 --> 00:20:18.739 Once again, my last question, um, I think I know the answer to which is, go . Go try observation copilot.com for free. 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:22.779 Um, you can do that for the rest of the school year, so everybody go check it out. 00:20:23.129 --> 00:20:24.739 Observation copilot.com. 00:20:24.739 --> 00:20:25.419 Thanks again, Adam. 00:20:25.419 --> 00:20:26.139 Appreciate you being 00:20:26.269 --> 00:20:29.269 Adam Geller: Yeah, thanks for having us and look forward to all the feedback from all your listeners.