Hello, this is The ProSource Podcast.
I'm Kevin Devine,
Director of Digital
Marketing Content
for ProSource Wholesale.
In this series
we’ll focus on home remodeling,
especially kitchens and bathrooms.
You'll hear from those in the know,
including our corporate merchandizers
showroom team members
and the trade professionals
who ultimately make it happen.
We're glad you've joined us.
Enjoy.
In today's episode
of The ProSource Podcast,
we're joined by Charlie
O’Hearn of Heritage Remodeling.
Charlie,
thanks for joining us here today. Thanks.
So we're going to start
a real simple question for you.
Just tell us who you are and what you do.
So I'm Charlie O'Hearn.
I own Heritage Remodeling.
We do
somewhat high end kitchen
and bath remodels. Basements.
But predominantly kitchen and
baths, is our main business. Okay.
How long you've been working
in the industry?
In the construction industry,
14 years or so.
I started out working for a roofing,
siding, gutter company,
and I would do their interior
work if it was needed
and that was mainly repair stuff.
And then that kind of built into
bigger and bigger projects to the point
that, you know,
I became having subcontractors
and things like that.
Okay.
Well, what what inspired you
to become a contractor?
I probably growing up,
my dad owned a
had a cabinet shop
that he built cabinets
out of our basement
for as long as I can remember.
He built that into a large
commercial cabinet company
that did store fixtures
and things like that.
So I've always been around
carpentry specifically.
And then basically out of high school,
I decided I wanted to go
in a different realm
and I worked on cars for years.
And then as soon as we bought a house,
I realized there's things
I can do at the house that you know,
that people would pay me to do
and became kind of my own thing.
Okay.
Is I'm kind of curious
because I refer to you as a contractor,
but is there a way
you like to label yourself
more as a contractor?
Remodeler or? Contractor
as a title is fine.
What we do is remodeling
because that gets
you can have contractors
that build new homes.
You can have contractors that do
exterior work, flat work.
There's all kinds of,
you know, different types of contractors.
But specifically we do remodeling.
So remodeling contractor,
I guess would be proper.
So no new construction?
No new construction. Okay.
Do you
focus more on the residential side
versus commercial or both?
We're probably 98% residential.
We've done a few.
Church kitchens, church bathrooms.
That's probably about
as commercial as we get.
But again, 98% residential.
Okay.
And you kind of mentioned,
I think I know the answer
to this question
based on what you said earlier,
but are you a one man show
or do you have a crew
that you work alongside?
I started as a one man show.
I did everything
from plumbing to electric to
any of the carpentry stuff, drywall,
painting.
And then it turned out as I got
busier and busier and busier
and also built relationships
with other contractors
in specific trades that now
I'm more of a general contractor,
so I sub almost all the work
I do, some of the carpentry,
still cabinets and stuff like that,
but mostly subs.
When you say that subs are they,
do they work exclusively for you
or is it on an as needed basis
and do you stick pretty much
with the same crews when you need them?
So I stick with the same crews,
but they are their own business entities.
They have their own insurance,
their own licensing, if it's required.
Plumbers and electricians
are required to have licensing
in the county.
So they are their
own individual businesses.
I do try to use the same contractors now.
I have like more than one painter.
I have more than one electrician.
So it depends on who's available
at any given time.
But they are their own entities.
Is it often availability or is it also
sometimes like like a skill set?
Meaning, if you're doing one
particular type of design, say
a more vintage design
versus a more modern design,
does that influence
who you might use
from a crew perspective?
It influences painters.
In my, my,
my opinion,
it influences painters, carpenters
and like the tile guys
specifically, like in bathroom's
because certain patterns
are more difficult or certain certain
specific tile
material is more difficult to work with.
And so if we want a very specific
look, yes,
I will call a specific tile contractor
over another one.
That's just a simple square
lay or something on a floor.
And then the same thing with carpentry.
The detail of the moldings
and and things, you know,
if it's super specialty
stuff, then, yeah,
we're going to use different contractors
for different projects.
Okay.
So you mentioned you
seem to focus more in
kitchens and bathrooms.
What would you say
is the percentage breakdown of
projects that you do that
are those two rooms versus other rooms?
It's easily
75% of our work is kitchens and baths.
And out of that
probably way
more than half is bathrooms.
We do more bathrooms,
it seems like, than anything.
And that's not by design.
That's simply by need.
Okay.
People coming to you and saying
that's what I want to correct. Correct.
Because you hear that those are the well,
everyone says
kitchens are bathrooms are what
sell a home.
And those are so frequently used.
Certainly that's
where remodels tend to happen
quite often. Sure.
And they're also, in my opinion,
where you need more specialty
because you're going to
you're
almost always going to get into plumbing.
You're almost always going
to get into electrical of some kind.
You're almost
always going to have to like waterproof,
a shower and stuff like that.
So even if you've got
like a basement room out
of where you're putting tile
and they don't have to worry
about waterproofing,
they don't have to worry
about drain setups and stuff like that.
You're not typically moving
plumbing or electric for
a basic, you know, basement redo.
So.
So it's more specialty.
So I think that's why it leads
to having a contractor
do it versus
a DIY or a lower
level contractor,
for lack of a better word.
Do you ever find yourself
when you talk about remodels,
you mainly come into a room
that hasn't been touched, or have you?
Do you find yourself
frequently walking to room
that maybe they try to DIY,
even if it's just
for the removal aspect of it
and you're like, okay, this is fun?
Most of the time our stuff is
never been touched
by the homeowner anyway.
We get into a lot of touched
by other contractors in the past
and so we uncover things that become
problematic or or unexpected.
I do particularly have one homeowner
that likes to start to demo things,
then realizes he can't
and then calls us anyway. So.
So even though he's used you a lot,
he still.
He still like.
Tries it on.
To try to get his hands dirty.
Yeah.
We're starting a project soon for him
and he's already said
he could do the demo.
And then we both laughed and moved on.
Hasn’t been quite successful for him?
No. No.
But if you try, try again.
Maybe eventually. Right? Right.
So you mentioned someone as
you come in behind other contractors,
maybe we've done working.
You find some things
that that are sort of sort of hidden.
How often does that happen?
You see it a lot.
I'll put it this way.
You see
the lot on the TV shows
where they're like,
Oh, wow, We didn't see that
behind the walls.
Everybody's stunned.
At what happens every time.
How often do you run
into that of the didn't see that coming
event?
Honestly, it
depends on the level of house.
So I would say half the houses we work on
are probably older than 1960.
And so the stuff we find in
those is very, very. Old,
contractor issues.
And sometimes it's not so much
that what they did was wrong
at the time they did it,
but by now, today's standards and code,
it's a different deal.
So we have to fix that kind of stuff.
In houses
newer than, say, late seventies,
that's when we get into, oh,
Billy Bob decided
he was going to put in his own dishwasher
or bathtub or something like that.
And it's a more
just wasn't quite done right
or was done at a DIY level.
And then we have to
come in and fix things.
So it just kind of how we find it
and what we find depends
on the age of the house
more than anything, it seems like.
So in those older homes
and you're trying to bring them
current to the current code,
do you run into challenges
with just the configuration of the room
and trying to meet the current code?
Yes.
So it's code within reason.
Code is fairly easy to update to.
It depends on how far are you going
with the remodel because
like right now we have a
bathroom that we're demolishing.
It's in a house
probably built in the thirties.
Give or take.
And so
we're going to we're going to relocate
a toilet
six feet or something like that by code.
The venting needs
venting is not required to be changed.
Therefore, all the cast
iron work and stuff that's in there,
we don't have to manipulate
unless it's actually bad.
But if it was built new from scratch,
we would have to change the way
that was done.
And so again, it depends on
how far you go with some of this stuff
and how extreme it gets as to
how much we have to change for code.
But we always update, you know,
outlets, switches, you know,
anything electrical
has got to be up to code
GFCI or arc fault if needed.
And then
shut offs and the new drain standards
for tubs
versus showers and things like that.
So all that stuff
a hammer arrestors
and things like that
are all modern stuff
that gets added to everything we do
because it's necessary.
So.
So you've mentioned a lot of things
that you
run into electrical, plumbing
and there's flooring
and there's all the different kitchen
and bath products.
Is there anything that's outside
of your skill set
or anything that just spooks you
when you go into a project?
We've been doing
this long enough
and we're so used to working in the
in that in that range of,
again, 30s to 50s houses,
we kind of know what to expect.
So none of it bothers me a whole lot
other than I hate dealing with plaster
if we don't have to.
So as long as plaster is in good shape,
that's the one thing, is
doing real plaster work.
We have a job
we're starting today
literally to kind of re-skim a ceiling.
And that's no problem
being plaster,
but the crown molding in the room
is actually plaster crown molding.
So we're we have to be very delicate
around the edges
to make sure we don't damage that,
because that's a very,
very particular trade
that nobody does anymore
where they actually make these plaster
moldings and stuff.
And so the homeowner is aware that
it's a possibility
if we have an issue with that, that
that we may have to call in
somebody else.
But short of that,
that's the biggest thing that scares me.
My plumber is good.
That's probably what it used to be.
A fear is is plumbing.
But my plumber so good that we don't
we don't really run anything
he can't handle.
Just because of the condition of pipes
where they're located.
Yeah.
And his ability
to fix about anything we need to fix.
You know, he's seen, he's.
He's an older gentleman,
so he's seen everything,
you know, and worked in about everything.
So there's nothing that
if it surprises him, then I get worried.
Okay, so.
If he goes, I don't know what.
What's going on, then I'm worried.
Does that happen often? No.
It hasn't happened yet.
Knock on thing. I'm glad I brought it up.
Yeah. And levy the curse on you.
So ProSource
Wholesale is a business
that caters to trade professionals
and their homeowner or commercial clients.
How long have you been
a member of ProSource?
At least since 2009.
I should probably remember
the exact date, but at least 2009.
So, you know,
14 years, I guess that's been so
quite, quite a while.
I don't know.
I honestly don't know
how long they've been around, but. ‘91. 1991.
Okay, Yeah. Not that long.
So yeah, so 2009.
Okay.
What, what made you join?
At the time we were doing
more entry level bathrooms and stuff
and I
needed a supplier for
specifically shower, shower, stall stuff.
There's a product called Onyx
that they carry.
And so that's a good,
you know,
entry level product
that's better than what
you can buy off the shelf at Home
Depot or Lowe's,
but not super expensive
and not full tile,
you know, custom shower.
And so that that initially was
you guys were a supplier
for them specifically,
you know,
and so that was kind of
what got my foot in the door,
I guess so to speak.
So what keeps you a member? Being,
able to send customers in
and see everything in one spot.
Confidence in who's
going to help them regardless
if it's actually my sales rep,
if they're available,
or another sales rep
and then familiar
familiarity
because I've been with you guys
so long with what products you carry
and you know, even the,
for lack of a better word,
the junky product you guys
carry is still better than much.
You're going to go buy elsewhere
and still competitive on price. Okay.
So I'm trying to do this in my head.
2009, I think right around in there
is when ProSource started
expanding outside of floor,
covering into the kitchen and bath realm.
Sure.
So did you find that advantageous
to when you came on board?
Yes. So
I don't remember how much of a
plumbing department you guys had,
But I do remember, again, you guys
maybe not on display,
but the availability of product
for kitchen and bath was there.
It just may not have been as
you couldn't
walk in and see it necessarily.
But when you
asked it was available.
Showroom still needed to expand a bit.
Yeah, we helped with that expansion.
Oh, look at that. Yeah. Yeah. So.
But yeah, the
showroom still needed to expand,
but the products were
still available there.
But I mean, it's it's increased
exponentially relative
to what it was back then where,
where you can go in and see
a lot of Kohler's
line of product
or Moen's line of product
right in the in the showroom.
And then having displays
where you can get a get an idea of,
okay, this is, this is,
you know, cabinetry layout or this is,
you know, different materials
and how they look together.
You know, in combination.
So.
Okay,
so you may have already answered this,
but I'll ask the question anyway
because it was next on my list.
So what are some of the benefits
of working with ProSource as
a as a trade professional.
Confidence in
availability of product.
If you guys say it's going to be here
in two or three weeks
or whatever it may be, the timeline
so much doesn't matter
because we plan around that,
but the accuracy
of that timeline of products.
So that's a big thing that we've run
into at other suppliers
that is not accurate all the time
or even close to accurate.
The kitchen and bath design
aspect not just having a sales rep there
that's going to go,
yeah, this looks good with this.
But someone who can go
who can who can meld the combination of,
you know, countertops
in a bathroom specifically
countertops, cabinets, fixtures
to have a style there
and give a visual representation
of of of what's going on.
That's that's probably the biggest thing
the two biggest things for me.
Okay.
You mentioned other suppliers.
You don't go to other suppliers, do you?
We don't frequent other suppliers
very often.
There’s the plug.
Yeah, that's all I ask for, man.
Just a little love.
So let's let's flip the other way.
Let's step outside of the showroom
here for a moment.
What,
especially within the realm of kitchens
and bathrooms,
because you've done
so many projects there,
what changes
have you seen
with with remodeling projects
in kitchens and bathrooms over the years?
It depends on what perspective
you look at it from.
But there's
there's been all kinds of change,
in my opinion,
in design since I've started,
you know,
larger format tiles
versus small format tiles,
kind of when I started
like 10x10 or 12x12
or maybe a 15x15 was about
the biggest
how you see now there's
we installed 24x48
tiles in a bathroom.
You know
it's that that that format has changed.
Cabinetry is is now trending
more towards inlay, inset drawers
and doors and things like that
technology and fixtures
kitchens with touch faucets
or motion sense faucets,
things like that.
And Kohler has a
a line of digital stuff
that's kind of really slick.
We don't put a lot of it in, but it's
I mean, it's a total change in how that's
how the interface, the user interface is.
So that's one aspect.
But then from an installation standpoint,
products from Schluter or Kurdi,
where it's waterproofing for showers
or prefabricated pans
that we can customize
to do tile and stuff like that,
that's the big thing
I, I focus on because it speeds up
our, the timeline of us doing stuff
makes things more reliable.
We don't worry about leaks
things like that.
Underlayment for floors have come
a long way, used to kind of
just be concrete board,
and now we've got underlayment
with crack isolation and stuff,
which we're way more confident,
especially in old houses,
where things shift and settle
really, really makes us confident
that we're not going to have grout
popping out or things like that
in ten years
versus the old products.
So a big change in installation products.
Because of what you mentioned there
with a lot of the large format
tiles and planks
that exist now,
how much has that changed
your installation approach?
So up to a certain size,
just tile, specifically
up to a certain size, it's
not that much different.
You 12x24,
you know,
we're going to use clips
on that installation to help help
keep everything flat and level.
And that's that's an amazing thing.
It adds a little bit of cost to the job.
But for the ability to not worry as much
about having a nice, perfectly flat floor
when you get into like 24x48,
that's a different deal.
It's different
different cutters used for the tiles
and you would think it goes faster,
but it doesn't because it covers
so much more surface area
with one drop of a tile,
but you're putting
so much more mortar down and
and back buttering everything.
It's it's no faster,
but it's a
little different in the tools
you need to use to install it
and things like that.
Okay.
Has anyone
I don't know why I'm having this thought,
but has anyone ever
maybe in a smaller powder room
decided to go with just one
big slab for the floor?
We have not done that.
I've heard of that being done.
Really? Okay.
Yeah, I've heard of that
being done with stone.
Just because
as we were talking
about the larger format,
I started thinking I'm like,
Well could you? And I bet you could.
You could, you could.
It would get into
that stone has to be
cut as one big chunk.
You would might get into a weight
depending on how big it is,
you might get into a weight thing
or you need to,
you know, restructure
slightly underneath.
That just kind of depends on
size of the room.
But navigating into the space
would probably be fun.
Oh, yeah, Yeah.
But it would definitely be a smaller
powder room.
I can't imagine a large room now.
I don't think I'm going to see that in
a kitchen any time soon. Yeah, sure.
So when you're working on a kitchen
or bathroom remodel,
how much influence
do you have specifically
on the products that are being selected?
I usually get asked,
What do you see
a lot being used and what has the best
long term durability?
You know,
what do you have problems
with right after install
or a couple of years after installing it?
That's usually the biggest thing I get.
And so I will
usually tell people
we have had good luck with “X” brand
and try to steer people into a brand
and it's more from a reliability thing.
I try not to affect
people's design decisions
because if you get into that
and then it's what you said to do that,
you know, you suggested this look.
And so I will
get an idea of what people want
and I don't mind steering them away
from what I think, isn't that look.
But I never try to force
what is necessarily.
So do you tend to go into the showroom
with them
when they for product selection,
Do you leave it to the account manager
to work with them
or is it a collaboration of all of you?
It depends on the it's
honestly it's job to job.
I have some homeowners
that literally know
exactly what they want.
And there's not not
there's no need for me to steer
one way or the other.
And in cases like that,
usually I'll call up and say, hey,
here's the customer, here's
what they're looking at specifically,
here's what they can't do
based on whatever
it may be, layout or or,
you know, the configuration
of showerheads or something like that.
I'll see what they absolutely can't do
and just give that to the sales rep
and then they can kind
of direct from there.
But then I have some people
that have no clue
and it's helpful for me to be here
just to go, okay,
stay away from this
because it's not what we discuss
in about,
you know, it's more just kind of steering
as opposed to telling them what to get.
And then the designers
are who I rely on for what is
what's just totally a trend
that's not going to last or outdated.
And it's not that
a customer can't do outdated.
We're just going to let them know
this is either outdated
or it's going to be outdated soon
for resale purposes
or whatever it may be.
So unless
you want to stick around for ten,
20 years, everything's retro.
Maybe it will come back around.
Well, and I always ask homeowners,
I said,
How long are you gonna stay in the house?
You know?
So how long are you going to stay in the house?
Number one for trends.
But are you going to be
the only person staring at it forever?
Then get whatever you want.
You know, if you want purple floors,
get purple floors.
If that's what you want,
you're going to be here forever.
But if you think you're going
to sell in four or five years,
you may not want to do
those purple floors.
And here's. Why. Right.
So we kind of touched on here
how much you pay attention
to both advancements with products
and the trends
that occur out the industry
and allowing those to factor
in any type of product recommendations.
I really lean
I do try to keep an eye
on product advancements
to like installation products
and things like that that are what I
what I would call
construction materials stuff.
Nobody sees
but affects the outcome of it.
So I tend to really try to keep up
with that stuff.
On the, the design or style side,
I kind of know what's out there
because I'm in here enough or I'm,
you know, have customers
showing me new things
that they see or whatever.
So I feel like I'm
a little up on that stuff,
but I'm probably not as up
to date as I need to be.
But I also trust again, that's
part of the reason I'm using
you guys or designers, is is there.
They are the ones that are
kept up on that
and they know the latest and greatest.
And so what's available
and what cost is and stuff like that,
how it applies.
Okay,
so like every paint company
loves to come out
with their color of the year
and sometimes it's a nice color,
very common, very neutral.
Maybe in other times it is blinding
in its approach.
Do you find sometimes homeowners
come around and say,
this is the type of color
I want in my room
because this is the trending color?
Does that play into a into design much?
It can. I mean,
everything has to tie together.
I was just talking
to a homeowner yesterday
about how everything is like a Tetris
puzzle of pieces.
And so.
Bringing a Tetris reference there nice.
There.
Yeah.
So, so you know, the color of your wall
can determine cabinet color
or stain can determine countertop tile
or it should any way.
It should have an effect
on what you're doing.
And it's not always
that it has to be matchy matchy,
but it kind of all needs to go together
and have a flow to everything.
And so,
yeah, I mean, sometimes I
have customers come to me and go,
Oh, this is the paint color I want,
and you have to build
around the paint color.
Or they may say, This is the tile
I like,
and you have to build around that tile
or you know, the, you know,
But I try to get people to pick one thing
because once you have one thing,
it eliminates
a lot of other
other selections that that don't go,
if that makes sense. Yeah.
So let's actually talk about that.
Is there something
that's an interesting take in either
bathroom or kitchen?
We could talk about both.
We could split it up. Sure.
Is there a particular product
that you look at and say,
okay, let's choose this,
I'll just randomly throw it out
so you understand what I'm saying?
We look at a bathroom,
you say, choose your vanity
and we'll base everything else,
kind of either that style
or that color in the kitchen.
It might be choose your cabinets
and then based off that color, that's how
that'll help us guide to the other.
Is there one that you tend to lean toward
to drive something?
If they're doing an entire room?
Obviously, usually.
Usually I'll base it on surface area.
So you know, in a kitchen, typically
your countertops are
a lot of surface area.
Your floor.
Obviously it
can be a lot of surface area.
But if it's broken up with an island,
you actually see less floor
sometimes than you do counter
and cabinets are a big factor in there.
But there's also so many options
for cabinet colors.
I think that's actually
an easier selection, if that makes sense.
Okay.
So usually I start with countertops
in a kitchen, in a bathroom.
Usually it's predominantly tile,
you know, tile on the floor,
tile in whatever your shower is.
And so usually I tell people
to kind of start there.
But again, it depends.
We've done some bathrooms
where we actually almost
had more counter space than floor space,
you know, in weird situations.
And so
it's a little bit playing it by ear
and then walls factor in. I mean,
if you have a lot of painted
wall surface area in a bathroom,
sometimes that becomes a huge factor
in in
where you're going to start
with your selection.
Because of the color tone
that's already there.
Correct? Correct. Yeah. All right.
So what are some of the important ways
that communication factors
in to a home
remodeling project and
ensures that it is successful?
I probably
I would think my homeowners
would say I over communicate.
Not a bad thing.
No, I would much rather
somebody have
way too much information and understand
exactly what's going on.
Then I would
not have enough information
and and either be worried about something
or just uninformed, you know,
uninformed, you know,
thinking that
they're not involved almost.
So it helps to make the homeowners
feel involved.
Besides writing a check,
you know,
besides picking your product,
and then all of a sudden
your job's done, write me checks
and then you have a bathroom.
And I have some homeowners
that want to be that way.
And that's perfectly fine.
But I feel like if they understand, okay,
in the next week,
we're going to come in and all your roof
and plumbing gets done.
And so this is going to happen
and this is going to happen.
This is going to happen.
And I don't tell them all the details,
but they have a rough idea
of what's going on
and they know the plumber showing up.
Then they feel like, okay,
I understand this week anyway,
and then the next week
maybe it's electrical or framing
or drywall or whatever it may be.
And so keeping
keeping people informed on on that
and maybe even why we do certain things.
You know, why
why do we have these hammer
arrestors in the walls
and oh,
it's because your,
your pipes bang
and your water pressure is uneven.
And then they go,
oh well yeah,
we've had that the whole time.
Well you won't have it now, you know.
So
having a homeowner be informed
also keeps me from getting weird
phone calls sometimes of,
Hey, hey, we've got this weird,
weird pipe sticking up out of the floor
and we don't. What's that for?
Is it going to go away or,
you know, whatever.
So they're fairly informed enough
to understand what we're doing.
Does the weird pipe go away?
The weird pipe goes away 99% of the time.
It's like, okay,
so you've also got other people
that get involved in this.
So how do you rein it all in?
You've got
you and the homeowner,
but you've got your crew
in here at the showroom,
you've got the account manager
and possibly a kitchen and bath designer.
How do you go about making sure
that everyone's aware of what's going on?
Do you find yourself
being the centerpiece. Of all that?
I am the ringleader, so to speak.
Whether that
whether that show is good or bad
at all depends on me.
So that is the main thing
that homeowners are paying me for
is coordination.
Yes, I very well may do some of the work,
but the main thing you're paying me
for is to coordinate
that the quantities
for the tile are correct
to get them ordered to be on time for,
you know,
when we need to install that
and that permits are pulled
and you know, inspections are happening
and you know, I'm
usually delivering dump trailers
or dropping a trailer
full of material off
or whatever it may be.
And so that whole coordination
and then also
to a degree,
I hate to use the word babysitting a homeowner,
but it's it's
making sure the homeowner
feels comfortable with what's going on.
And and
and again, part of that is them
being informed
and part of that is just passing along,
you know,
passing on any information
from updates on materials
and things like that.
So how beneficial is the showroom
with illustrating that
project to the
to the homeowner
on a more concrete level.
Being it
since the expansion of the kitchen,
a bath section,
you know,
you can walk in and show somebody, okay,
you know, you've got vanity countertop
shower and kind of go, okay,
this floor has to be in
before these cabinets go in.
These cabinets have to be in
for the countertops,
get templated to go in or
the stone for the shower.
I don't know if that
answers your question,
but it's it's an example
of what a finished product looks like,
that I can break down backwards
and say this is
this is the order
of operations for things.
And they can see it firsthand.
Okay.
So I kind of mentioned it earlier,
so they'll swing back to it.
I've mentioned the kitchen and bath designer
in the showroom.
Do you make much use of that service
here at the showroom? Yeah. Yeah.
I have a
specific designer
that I like to work with
because we've worked together
now probably for ten years.
So if I call in and say
I usually send a preliminary
drawing that just says,
You've got this much room for cabinets,
this is rough location
in the room, close to a window,
whatever it may be.
If I say I want,
I want fillers on the left side
or whatever.
She knows what I mean.
What I need for installation purposes,
not just here's your cabinets,
but here's the cleat I need for crown.
She already knows what I want.
She already knows,
you know, filler wise or toe
kick wise are also capability wise
because different
coming from a background of cabinets,
I have no problem
modifying a cabinet
to fit what we need to a degree.
And so she knows what I can and can't do.
Therefore, there's certain things
she knows
she can design for me
that we can accomplish,
that maybe another contractor can't.
So because of the relationship
you've built. Because of the relationship.
Right now, so now you've got that sort of
sometimes an unspoken communication
that you're just in that mind meld
right between the two of you. Yeah.
And we double, you know, we always
I'll get a drawing back
and I'll double check and go,
Yeah, this is on there,
this is on there, this is on there.
But yeah, it's, it works well.
So my next
question is a little bit longer.
I'm going to look down and read it. Sure.
You could take a drink
if you want to go through all this.
In the beginning, no.
So many homeowners don't
fully know
how much a remodel project can cost.
We should probably say
maybe most don't know.
They think they have an idea,
but they probably don't really.
How do you go about setting up
a realistic budget with them
and then along with that, what?
And so I'd look two questions
in one here.
And then what
are some of the common obstacles
you use to navigate
and move forward with the project?
With any challenges you may have
there on the budget front.
So the first is just
how do you make sure
the budget is realistic? Sure.
So I'll preface this slightly.
Most of my customers
budget is a factor, but
I'm blessed
that it's usually not actually
the overriding thing.
They have a number,
but it's it's usually pretty realistic
and it's it's better scale than most.
So anyway, so we start with that, but
I usually don't even ask them a money
number walking in.
I just say,
you know, what would you like to do?
You know,
if it was your dream project
and you do anything you want to,
what do you want to do?
And so they lay that out
and I go, okay,
this is what it takes to accomplish that.
And I go through the technical aspect of,
okay, if the toilet moves, this moves,
this plumbing has got to be rearranged.
You know,
if your basement is finished,
then that means we're possibly cutting
a ceiling out down there
to access things or whatever it may be,
or go
going through a roof with a new vent.
And then
I will usually try
to give a rough number.
You know, just just an idea of,
okay, this is “x” grand.
And, you know, they go
that's that's within budget. Great.
Then that's what we do.
If that's not in budget,
then I go now
what if we
then I start going to alternates of,
okay, if you don't move the toilet
all the way across the room
and we put it here instead,
it saves you “X” dollars
and then we start working backwards
from that step.
Material choice does come in, but there's
a lot of ways
to manipulate materials
to still get a look
That's not
you may not be exactly what they wanted,
but I can get them close
in a lower cost material.
So usually layout
is the most important thing,
say in a kitchen or bath kitchens
or bathrooms,
especially because
we're usually moving things.
Kitchens don't don't manipulate
as much typically. But
so we
start with layout and
then we move to product too,
to back off
product potentially or change product
on the cost.
That's the first part, right?
That's good enough.
So then it was
what are some of the common obstacles?
Do you have that help
you navigate that whole process?
How do you how do you recognize them?
How do you overcome them?
Yeah,
the overcoming typically,
as the homeowner has to accept that
that that that something has to change
in order to make the costs come down.
So again,
whether that's layout,
whether that's material choices,
sometimes I tell homeowners
if that's really what you want,
just wait and save. You know what I mean?
There's nothing wrong with
if it takes
if it's three more months down the road,
but you're going to be
in the house forever
and you want to be your dream bathroom.
Just save the difference
and do exactly what you want.
Because it's something else
you mentioned there.
You said you're often
you're more often
moving things in a bathroom
than in the kitchen.
So I was trying to do this in my head
and let's see if I guess correctly,
you're in a kitchen,
you might have an island,
you have appliances.
Does that sort of fact
factor into why
there's less movement there
versus a bathroom
where maybe you can move the plumbing in
one direction or another?
When I say movement,
it's it's
the amount of work
it takes to move, say, a toilet drain
that's four inches in diameter.
You know, it has to go through floor
joists a certain direction.
But I have a
I have a code that says
I can only drill a hole in the center
that.
joist Less than a third of the size.
And there's a lot more to.
You're moving a water
you know, a water lot for a toilet.
You remove a waterline
and a supply and a drain,
you know, for for sinks.
You're moving two supplies
and a drain for showers.
You're moving again,
multiple supplies and a drain.
And so there's there's
just a lot more to moving
that versus in a kitchen you have a sink
which has those three factors.
But your appliances
are typically a supply line
and a drain line.
That's going to run
back to the sink
or a supply line for a refrigerator
that runs through a pipe underneath.
So it's a whole lot simpler process.
And also to
you may move
we may move more electric in a kitchen
typically than in a bathroom.
But typically electric
is easier to move than plumbing.
And so I guess that's
what it comes down to
is the amount of the amount of plumbing
and how far you have to go with it
is typically more in a bathroom.
So I had another thought hit me here.
You just keep saying these things
and the questions just pop in my head
as we talk about budget,
how much has budget
has the budget changed
over the past few years?
As we've come out of the pandemic?
There's been a lot of price movement,
a lot of a lot of supply chain
challenges.
How much has budget,
from your perspective, changed with your
those projects versus what it was?
I actually just rebid.
I had a project that I did
for a customer in mid 2019.
They called me last week to say
they wanted to go ahead
and execute that project.
So just four years later.
I'm going to ask, is that normal?
No, no, typically not that far.
And actually it may have been 20.
Either way.
Either way, it's been to,
you know, three years,
but I had to rework his bid.
And so it probably went up
20%, give or take.
And so that's mainly
in construction materials
and finished materials.
Just materials went all over the place.
I do pay,
you know, more in labor,
but it's not due to the pandemic.
It's simply
because prices,
you know, slowly prices
increase for labor.
But that was negligible.
But materials definitely
and mid-pandemic materials were insane.
Then I'd be charging
40% more for certain
for certain items,
but it's leveled back out to where,
you know,
I would say roughly 20%
difference, give or take.
And it depends on the product.
Certain things
kind of went back to what they were
and certain things never are still crazy.
So now this one I'm
curious as I look at your face,
how you may react to this one.
There are a plethora of home
remodeling shows out there
across the networks and streaming, etc.
and I'm sure there's
probably a ton of YouTube videos
too, doing the whole thing.
How do you react to all of that?
The vast...
looks like you're trying to find
a politically correct answer. Politically correct.
Yeah.
The vast majority of those shows,
as far as timeline
process
budgets are either.
None of them are, in my opinion.
Nearly none of them are accurate.
Typically, timelines are like,
Oh, we'll have done in a week,
and it's like, not a chance.
You know, we can't
we can't get stone for a bathroom
in a week.
You know, if it's if it's templated
and you'll see them on the show
where they template one day
and they installed the next day,
I'm like that just impossible anyway.
But
so yeah, timelines are completely
out of whack.
It typically seems like
budgets are out of whack.
And I do understand
these shows make money on that.
So there are sponsors
that pay for products,
so that lowers the cost,
but they don't explain that.
They don't say,
well, we got materials for free.
So the labor was this much and so
or that or that.
We had 30 contractors
working on this project
literally 24 hours a day.
So we got it done in a week.
But it's it's
three months of work
for a handful of contractors to do so.
I do understand why it looks like that,
but they don't explain that.
So I get some homeowners that do have a
a disproportionate
view of how long it should
or shouldn't take based on that.
But but I do think they sometimes
can be beneficial
from a design perspective
because they usually do the more extreme.
Usually they're using the latest greatest
and the more extreme styles
and trends and things like that,
which can be good.
I don't know that I would always do
exactly what they do,
but we can pull pieces of that,
you know, from a style perspective
or a design perspective,
which again,
I don't try to get into a whole lot.
And there is there
I remember from a couple of years ago,
there was a show
that was very accurate on budget,
very accurate on work,
but that's what they were more focused
on than the shock
and awe of doing a job in a week.
Anyway, there there, there was one.
I don't know if I can name it on the air
if it matters, but
but the whole Mike Holmes back, back,
back five, ten years ago,
that show was actually accurate.
I mean, when he
you know, he used to say that
basically roughly 50% of your job
should roughly be
materials and 50% is labor.
That's not way off.
You may have
the overall cost is still about same.
You may have a little more,
the ratio may be a little off.
But that was realistic
and all his timelines were realistic.
So they could be dramatic
on, ooh, this is wrong and it
maybe it really was wrong.
But but again,
everything on that show
did seem to actually be accurate,
but they weren't concerned
with getting it done in a week
and they weren't concerned with it being,
you know, the latest
and greatest necessarily just done well.
So so I'm curious,
what if they approached you to do a show?
Would you?
I don't have the personality.
For TV. Show.
I'm not dramatic enough
anything on TV nowadays.
You have to be like,
you got to have,
my gosh, we're going to lose the shop
because we can't
get this done or whatever.
And so I'm not dramatic enough.
Like I said,
my favorite is when they have the big
they are working on it and suddenly
they discover something behind the walls.
It wasn't there.
And every week that happens
and yet they're still stunned
when it happens. Right.
And yes,
you would have to pull out the drama
to make that work.
Yeah, I'm not dramatic enough.
Not for, you know. Okay.
So with all that content that's out there
and we touched on this
a little bit earlier,
a lot of homeowners
are probably going to think, hey,
I could do this on my own
or at least
some portion of this on my own.
Do you find that factoring in
you mentioned some
that like the one homeowner
who is,
no matter what you tell
him, is going to try to do the
removal part anyway on his own? Right.
Do you find that
being influence out there?
Not not terribly often.
But I also
a lot of my homeowners
are repeat customers,
so I kind of get to know them
well enough that
that I know
what their skillset is and what it isn't.
And so there are times when
we may be doing a
like, say,
a big basement or remodel something.
And if they just want to save
a little bit in one aspect of it,
I can go, you know, you're doing LVT
flooring and it's pretty easy to install
and you're perfectly
skilled enough to do that.
And I have no problem
saying if you want to
install the following,
this is a way you can save some money,
you know,
But I'm probably not going to tell
somebody do your own plumbing
or do your own electric.
But there's certain things
that I have a handful of customers
that they can
they're fully capable
of doing certain aspects of the job
that I did
that doesn't, in the end affect me.
You know,
if somebody puts their flooring in wrong
or has a slight issue with it,
that doesn't change whether or not
I'm going to pass an inspection
typically or something like that. And so
I'm not above doing that, but
it's it's few and far between. Okay.
Do you find
find yourself
with some of these projects?
Let's look at flooring specifically here.
Do you find yourself using one
particular product category
more than others?
In other words,
are you doing
more tile or more LVT
since you're doing
kitchens and bathrooms, so much.
I did typically, you know, bathrooms are
I don't know.
It's almost all the time is, is,
you know, porcelain, ceramic
or natural stone tile.
We do have a bathroom in a basement.
It's like a, you know, a third bathroom.
In the scheme of things,
we're going to do an LVT
a luxury vinyl
tile that's a glue down and grout.
Still very nice tile,
but at lower cost, lower
installation cost.
But it's again it's
a third bathroom in the house,
you know, as far as use level goes.
So that works out well we do
we have two basement remodels
going on right now.
So we're doing a lot of LVP
in those the vinyl plank.
But like kitchens,
it's usually either hardwood or tile.
Nowadays it's trending towards hardwood.
It seems like.
But we do, you know, it depends.
It's product,
it's a project dependent, but,
you know, tile, hardwood and,
you know, vinyl products.
Do you find
with all the waterproof technology
that is going out there,
waterproof carries across
all the different product categories.
Do you find that being a factor
in product decisions?
Yeah, definitely.
Especially like basements where,
you know, obviously
if the basement floods,
we're replacing the floor
just for mold issues.
But minor spills
or you've got a wet bar area
down there or something
like that, or even in bathrooms
where again, it's,
you know,
we're typically not going to do it
in a master bathroom,
but a secondary bathroom,
a kids bathroom, a basement bathroom,
you know,
vinyl plank or vinyl tile is
is a great option
for the waterproof,
you know, for just random water issues.
So, yeah.
I had another thought and just
it just escaped me, as you were saying.
That's I'll probably think of it later.
But the one thing I did
consider as
were talking about
the product categories, I'm
guessing you don't do
a whole lot with carpet
and I only say that
because of the kitchens,
the bathrooms realm of it,
but certainly with other rooms. Well.
For whatever reason,
I don't do a lot of
like whole room carpets.
We do a ton of staircases. Okay.
Like so
so runners down
the center of a staircase,
they get a bound edge or whatever.
For whatever reason, we do a ton of that.
And I have two different
carpet contractors that do that for me.
We do do a lot of that,
you know, patterned carpets
and things like that.
And those
you asked me earlier
if something scare me, carpet scares me.
I would have thought one.
And linoleum, which we
I don't think I've ever done
a linoleum job, but carpet and linoleum.
And the reason
why is if my tile guy comes in
and screws up something on a tile floor,
I can reasonably confidently
come in and fix it.
I can pop the tile up,
I can cut new tile,
I can put it in place myself if I had to.
Hardwood floors,
same way LVP, LVT same way.
I cannot do carpet.
So carpet scares me
because I can't come in and fix it
myself.
I'm going to have to pay
somebody to fix that
if it gets screwed up.
So yeah, carpet scares me.
I forgot about.
That.
Duly noted.
Yeah,
but if I want to just freak you out,
I'll just mention the word carpet.
Okay, So last question for you.
Sure, you can take a breath here,
but what advice
would you give to a potential homeowner
who is considering a home
remodel project?
Could be a kitchen, could be a bathroom,
but maybe it's just any room.
What's the advice
you would offer to them?
Picking a contractor is super important
and it seems like common sense.
But I have seen
because things
we found on projects
or just just stories you hear
and there is no perfect contractor, but
just because the guy insured,
licensed and bonded,
which is good things to have
and you want to make sure
they've got that stuff that in.
I don't care
how many bathrooms they've done,
that doesn't mean they do
good work, if that makes sense.
You know,
I've seen
completely unlicensed and
undocumented guys,
for lack of a better word.
Do some of the best work I've ever seen.
And I've seen licensed, fully, fully
documented guys
do the worst work
you've ever seen in your life.
And so it doesn't always mean and it's
cosmetic mostly, you know,
they come and they do it real fast.
Nothing leaks.
It just doesn't look good.
And so seeing pictures,
seeing, having references,
being able to call a homeowner
or if you can walk in a house,
that's
a that's a big
being able to see work they've done.
And really look at it.
Don't don't have a picture
that's 20 feet away
where you can't see certain things.
And so being very specific about that,
which we try to, you know, on my website
tell people anything on my website,
we did start to finish.
That's drywall, that's flooring,
that's counters,
that's cabinets, that's,
you know,
all the plumbing in the room,
the electric,
everything we did from start to finish.
Now there are projects
on my Facebook page
where I'll tell people
this was something we came in
and did a part of a project.
Most of them aren't like that.
But you know,
and I,
we all our rapport, it's
all our business is referral.
So I have no problem
literally bringing in somebody
on any of the jobs
I'm currently working on or in the past.
And I've got customers
that would gladly say, Hey,
send them by and we'll talk to them.
But that's a big factor
in picking a contractor.
Not just
they check all the boxes
on a sheet of paper,
you know, that they're qualified. Okay.
Well, I appreciate you
taking the time to join us here today
and to in all of this. Charlie O’Hearn.
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