WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:31.536 --> 00:01:33.076 Duke: Okay, Corey, what are we talking about today? 00:01:33.656 --> 00:01:37.966 CJ: Today, Duke, we're talking about the invisibility problem and how to 00:01:37.966 --> 00:01:40.696 solve it by turning things visible. 00:01:41.681 --> 00:01:42.141 Duke: Okay. 00:01:42.241 --> 00:01:44.961 Let's talk about the invisible problem. 00:01:44.961 --> 00:01:49.151 And I want a big shout out to, , Michael Rogario, , out on LinkedIn. 00:01:49.181 --> 00:01:53.161 Cause he was asking the other week, what's your impression of the 00:01:53.171 --> 00:01:55.851 biggest problems that have to be solved in the service now space. 00:01:56.846 --> 00:01:58.136 And, what would you pick? 00:01:58.406 --> 00:02:01.066 And this was my pick is the invisibility problem. 00:02:01.066 --> 00:02:02.176 And it goes something like this. 00:02:02.916 --> 00:02:07.526 Everything that we build and we make a, we, we even have a term for people who 00:02:07.526 --> 00:02:08.836 were in charge of all the build, right? 00:02:08.836 --> 00:02:14.116 The architect, and everything we talk about using service now, building 00:02:14.126 --> 00:02:16.236 blocks and building solutions. 00:02:16.266 --> 00:02:20.036 But I think what differentiates us from all the human history of building 00:02:20.046 --> 00:02:22.616 is that what we build is completely. 00:02:24.066 --> 00:02:24.476 CJ: Yeah. 00:02:24.556 --> 00:02:28.010 Duke: If you think about, a hundred years ago when the big complex things 00:02:28.010 --> 00:02:33.120 we built were like battleships and skyscrapers and, , highway interchanges 00:02:33.150 --> 00:02:38.236 and, , submarines, what you could build had took up material space. 00:02:38.236 --> 00:02:39.156 It was tangible. 00:02:39.156 --> 00:02:42.446 And so as you build, you could be like, wait, that thing isn't level. 00:02:43.076 --> 00:02:43.656 CJ: Yeah. 00:02:43.856 --> 00:02:46.096 Duke: So those bolts are not the same size. 00:02:46.116 --> 00:02:48.366 This is not the right tool for the job. 00:02:48.626 --> 00:02:50.506 And you could see it in reality. 00:02:50.506 --> 00:02:53.326 And you could, anticipate the consequences because you could 00:02:53.486 --> 00:02:56.216 see the things that were wrong. 00:02:56.536 --> 00:02:59.126 You could see, or, and you can see the things that were right too. 00:02:59.146 --> 00:03:00.436 You could see everything that was in place. 00:03:01.541 --> 00:03:03.601 And so it'd be like, everybody's got this story about the mechanic. 00:03:03.601 --> 00:03:04.831 Well, that's your problem right here. 00:03:04.831 --> 00:03:08.631 And, you know, it pulls a gigantic stick that's, you know, in the way 00:03:08.631 --> 00:03:12.581 of the belts or whatever, I'm not a mechanic, obviously, but everything 00:03:12.591 --> 00:03:17.751 else that human beings build is visible in some way, this is a place where 00:03:17.751 --> 00:03:20.051 people don't dump a ton of money. 00:03:20.275 --> 00:03:20.645 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:20.905 --> 00:03:25.535 , Duke: and a whole bunch of effort for something that they can't see. 00:03:26.105 --> 00:03:26.675 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:27.945 --> 00:03:30.965 Duke: That's to me, , is the , the invisibility problem, but what, are the 00:03:30.965 --> 00:03:32.935 consequences of the invisibility problem? 00:03:33.315 --> 00:03:33.505 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:33.505 --> 00:03:35.525 So I just a little context to that, right? 00:03:35.525 --> 00:03:41.045 Like people dump a metric F ton of money into , this thing that we do, right? 00:03:41.045 --> 00:03:42.355 Like this little thing of ours. 00:03:42.685 --> 00:03:46.365 And, comes down to, The difference between atoms and bits, right? 00:03:46.375 --> 00:03:49.825 Like, you know, in the past, everything that was done you built with atoms. 00:03:49.895 --> 00:03:50.905 Atoms are visible. 00:03:50.935 --> 00:03:52.645 Atoms you can touch, right? 00:03:52.645 --> 00:03:53.865 Like you can measure. 00:03:54.075 --> 00:03:57.285 It's easy to see the fruit of your labor, right? 00:03:57.285 --> 00:03:58.715 And it's easy to see where it went wrong. 00:03:59.205 --> 00:03:59.455 Yeah. 00:03:59.495 --> 00:04:01.195 With, bits, not so much, right? 00:04:01.275 --> 00:04:02.585 , and historically, right? 00:04:02.655 --> 00:04:05.625 , and until we get a few more generations into the future, like there's 00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:10.185 still this fear , Of technology with a certain generation, right? 00:04:10.185 --> 00:04:13.635 And so a lot of folks look at it as magic and they stay away from it, to 00:04:13.635 --> 00:04:18.745 the question, what are the results of this, ? I think what I've seen is that 00:04:18.951 --> 00:04:22.311 the biggest result that I've seen of the invisibility problem and service 00:04:22.311 --> 00:04:26.901 now is service now implementations that go way wrong or bad or sometimes 00:04:26.941 --> 00:04:29.241 even only slightly wrong or bad, 00:04:29.421 --> 00:04:29.781 ? But. 00:04:30.321 --> 00:04:36.601 Often throw off the platform internally enough that it dramatically reduces 00:04:36.651 --> 00:04:40.441 the, , usefulness and the value that you get out of it and often the adoption. 00:04:41.256 --> 00:04:48.016 Duke: Yeah, and I see it as , you never quite know, , I have been to customers 00:04:48.026 --> 00:04:50.176 that lacked the architectural oversight. 00:04:50.771 --> 00:04:54.401 On paper, they did everything right the whole way through, but whatever reason, 00:04:54.401 --> 00:04:56.981 or without an architect, and you go in for the interview and you're like, well, 00:04:56.981 --> 00:04:58.201 what's the footprint of your system? 00:04:58.201 --> 00:05:03.921 And we're like, we think we think we've got all these things deployed. 00:05:03.941 --> 00:05:04.871 What do you license for? 00:05:04.871 --> 00:05:06.761 It's like a whole other, you know what I mean? 00:05:06.761 --> 00:05:11.041 Like, we can't, you can't just open the hood and see what's wrong or right. 00:05:11.351 --> 00:05:14.651 CJ: yeah, yeah, no, absolutely it's all a leap of faith. 00:05:14.966 --> 00:05:19.086 You, you hope that, the person who built the system documented it. 00:05:19.086 --> 00:05:21.896 Well, you hope that there's , some communication 00:05:21.896 --> 00:05:22.986 lying around somewhere, right? 00:05:22.986 --> 00:05:25.716 Like you hope that, you know, you hope that the business actually 00:05:25.716 --> 00:05:26.896 knows what they asked for. 00:05:27.386 --> 00:05:28.756 Sometimes they don't even know that. 00:05:28.756 --> 00:05:33.426 . And you hope that somewhere, some, somebody cared enough, right. 00:05:33.626 --> 00:05:38.626 To say, okay, we bought this product, we're delivering the service using it. 00:05:39.151 --> 00:05:41.181 . And this is how it should be done. 00:05:41.471 --> 00:05:42.491 I don't see like 00:05:42.491 --> 00:05:44.231 they're all all too often. 00:05:44.231 --> 00:05:44.451 Right. 00:05:44.461 --> 00:05:49.131 Do that, that I don't, that I don't see any of those things and then folks wonder 00:05:49.131 --> 00:05:51.171 like, okay, so why aren't we successful? 00:05:51.451 --> 00:05:55.211 It's like, did you even stop and define what success is to start? 00:05:55.528 --> 00:05:58.108 even the definition of success is invisible. 00:05:58.616 --> 00:06:02.966 Duke: And if the problem is abstract and really how much damage can be 00:06:02.966 --> 00:06:07.546 done, I would encourage you to go back and listen to our doomsday episode. 00:06:08.476 --> 00:06:10.536 Links will be in the description below. 00:06:10.606 --> 00:06:11.576 Everybody take a shot. 00:06:13.101 --> 00:06:13.491 CJ: always, 00:06:14.346 --> 00:06:17.536 Duke: Yeah, because the doomsday scenario in the service now world 00:06:17.566 --> 00:06:20.216 is a greenfield project, right? 00:06:20.376 --> 00:06:23.176 We're at the point where we've built and built and built and 00:06:23.176 --> 00:06:26.706 built on this ostensibly for good reasons to drive more value. 00:06:26.886 --> 00:06:30.256 Hey, let's sacrifice all of that so that we can try and do it again. 00:06:31.661 --> 00:06:32.001 CJ: Yeah. 00:06:32.616 --> 00:06:36.196 Duke: the, and, and the invisibility problem is I would say. 00:06:36.751 --> 00:06:40.561 Like one of the major prime movers in that whole equation. 00:06:40.571 --> 00:06:43.401 Like I never get to the point where I need a greenfield if I 00:06:43.401 --> 00:06:45.591 wasn't suffering the consequences. 00:06:46.121 --> 00:06:50.061 Of the invisibility problem, like the thing that earned me my flight wings 00:06:50.131 --> 00:06:54.471 in the ServiceNow world, you know, I had been an admin and a developer and 00:06:54.881 --> 00:07:00.788 built cool stuff, but I didn't become a grown up in the ServiceNow space until 00:07:00.788 --> 00:07:02.488 I had my first re architecture project. 00:07:03.443 --> 00:07:06.716 And let me just give an example of the invisibility problem in action. 00:07:07.146 --> 00:07:11.346 This company had high aspirations to do a lot more with ITSM, 00:07:12.071 --> 00:07:12.551 CJ: Right. 00:07:12.696 --> 00:07:12.976 Duke: right? 00:07:13.146 --> 00:07:13.296 Yeah. 00:07:13.296 --> 00:07:14.626 We got the ITSM stuff. 00:07:14.676 --> 00:07:14.946 Yep. 00:07:15.136 --> 00:07:16.146 And the catalog. 00:07:16.146 --> 00:07:17.826 And for the most part, it's okay. 00:07:17.826 --> 00:07:19.306 We've got some rough patches here and there. 00:07:19.306 --> 00:07:20.826 We just need somebody to come in, polish it up. 00:07:21.036 --> 00:07:23.606 We want a super awesome CMDB, right? 00:07:23.786 --> 00:07:27.146 We want, , integration with third party, service desks and, you 00:07:27.146 --> 00:07:28.196 know, come in and polish it up. 00:07:28.506 --> 00:07:32.216 And when I came in and started poking around what's built in the system, 00:07:32.226 --> 00:07:37.676 like the people who hired me didn't even know the scale of other stuff 00:07:37.676 --> 00:07:39.106 that was built on the platform. 00:07:39.243 --> 00:07:42.643 They knew that we had this other kind of like think business 00:07:42.643 --> 00:07:46.503 operation, shared service center, not it just shared services 00:07:46.503 --> 00:07:47.853 amongst other business disciplines. 00:07:48.483 --> 00:07:51.396 , they knew that there was some, other operational stuff that had 00:07:51.396 --> 00:07:54.816 built on service now, but what they didn't know was that that stuff. 00:07:55.221 --> 00:07:59.425 Was three times the number of transactions than , all the it 00:07:59.835 --> 00:08:02.935 stuff, incident, problem, change, all of that stuff combined. 00:08:03.875 --> 00:08:07.715 So it was like the people who literally own the platform were completely 00:08:07.735 --> 00:08:12.635 unaware that they were the smallest and frankly, the least important politically 00:08:14.105 --> 00:08:16.725 stakeholder in their entire application. 00:08:16.945 --> 00:08:17.535 CJ: right, 00:08:17.615 --> 00:08:20.365 Duke: And you think that's pretty stupid, but how can it be stupid 00:08:20.365 --> 00:08:22.495 when you, you literally can't see it. 00:08:23.345 --> 00:08:23.675 CJ: Yeah. 00:08:23.675 --> 00:08:24.855 I mean, you don't know, right. 00:08:24.855 --> 00:08:26.715 You know, somebody asked you to do a thing, right. 00:08:26.715 --> 00:08:28.825 And you created a framework so they can do the thing. 00:08:29.085 --> 00:08:31.025 And now you don't necessarily know. 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.630 , because you're not consuming that service that's being offered to them, like how 00:08:35.630 --> 00:08:41.310 extensively they're using it and to what degree and yeah, I mean, there's an 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.400 argument here that you should know, right? 00:08:43.400 --> 00:08:45.120 Like, as the owner of the platform, right? 00:08:45.300 --> 00:08:46.430 There's an argument here. 00:08:46.430 --> 00:08:47.900 Definitely that you should know. 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:50.690 But I think the problem that we're pointing out here is that it is 00:08:50.760 --> 00:08:53.460 invisible unless you go looking for it. 00:08:54.135 --> 00:08:54.365 Duke: That's 00:08:54.625 --> 00:08:54.945 CJ: Right? 00:08:54.965 --> 00:08:58.445 And so the things we need to do is to make sure that we understand 00:08:58.445 --> 00:09:02.405 the things that need to be visible, that we elevate them, right? 00:09:02.415 --> 00:09:06.255 So that they're obvious, and then we can use those to avoid, like you 00:09:06.255 --> 00:09:09.935 said, the doomsday scenario, which is basically a greenfield rebuild. 00:09:10.780 --> 00:09:11.150 Right. 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:12.680 And nobody wants to do that. 00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:15.700 Nobody wants to, because everyone says, well, this time is different. 00:09:16.040 --> 00:09:16.970 It's never different. 00:09:17.160 --> 00:09:17.500 Right. 00:09:17.500 --> 00:09:20.660 You're going to , rebuild it and there's going to be something you missed or 00:09:20.660 --> 00:09:21.680 something new is going to, right. 00:09:21.680 --> 00:09:22.360 It's just, you just, 00:09:23.861 --> 00:09:33.091 Duke: It's invisible. 00:09:33.171 --> 00:09:35.531 CJ: you know, that you deliver the product, in a way, , that you 00:09:35.531 --> 00:09:36.631 can build on it in the future. 00:09:36.631 --> 00:09:36.841 Right. 00:09:36.841 --> 00:09:39.721 And that everyone knows what you got and that they can communicate it. 00:09:39.721 --> 00:09:40.191 I think so. 00:09:40.341 --> 00:09:43.381 I think we just got to stop treating this thing like it's magic, right? 00:09:43.381 --> 00:09:44.981 Like, let's stop treating it like it's magic. 00:09:44.981 --> 00:09:47.931 I think that's a good, that's a good concise point from that, 00:09:47.941 --> 00:09:51.161 that I, I'd probably, I'm probably going to take with me , from this, 00:09:51.191 --> 00:09:52.291 from the podcast here, right? 00:09:52.291 --> 00:09:53.981 Like let's stop treating service now. 00:09:53.981 --> 00:09:54.811 Like it's magic. 00:09:54.811 --> 00:09:54.871 It's magic. 00:09:55.191 --> 00:09:59.351 And start treating it like it's actual enterprise value, right. 00:09:59.351 --> 00:10:00.811 And communicate it as such. 00:10:02.471 --> 00:10:03.191 Now, how do we do that? 00:10:03.191 --> 00:10:03.541 Duke? 00:10:10.291 --> 00:10:10.631 Duke: sorry. 00:10:10.671 --> 00:10:11.301 CJ: that the idea of 00:10:11.361 --> 00:10:11.371 Duke: invis? 00:10:11.371 --> 00:10:11.641 CJ: bail? 00:10:13.811 --> 00:10:16.351 Duke: No, you know, I got, I got the diabetes. 00:10:16.761 --> 00:10:20.631 I got the diabetes and, , I'm on this new program and I'm just 00:10:20.631 --> 00:10:22.071 like loaded up with sensors. 00:10:22.691 --> 00:10:25.381 And, , this is my continuous glucose monitor, 00:10:25.571 --> 00:10:26.071 CJ: Oh, nice. 00:10:26.291 --> 00:10:28.471 Duke: which is connected by Bluetooth to my phone. 00:10:28.601 --> 00:10:30.991 And every once in a while, my phone's like, I can't read 00:10:30.991 --> 00:10:32.561 your blood glucose monitor. 00:10:32.561 --> 00:10:33.051 And so it's. 00:10:33.616 --> 00:10:37.436 Sending me alerts and I can't figure out ways to configure the alerts. 00:10:37.436 --> 00:10:43.416 And that's the invisibility problem too, is how do I actually manage this stuff? 00:10:43.891 --> 00:10:44.721 CJ: Yeah, right. 00:10:44.721 --> 00:10:45.741 Like how do you manage this stuff? 00:10:45.741 --> 00:10:48.081 Because yeah, it's a bunch of stuff, right? 00:10:48.081 --> 00:10:50.291 Like, so , how do we begin to solve this problem? 00:10:50.821 --> 00:10:53.931 . Because I refuse to believe that, this problem that we have, 00:10:53.931 --> 00:10:58.041 that is likely one of the most, , impactful, I think, Especially 00:10:58.396 --> 00:10:58.976 Duke: pernicious. 00:10:59.006 --> 00:10:59.256 Yeah. 00:10:59.256 --> 00:11:00.016 It's super funny. 00:11:00.016 --> 00:11:00.306 Yeah. 00:11:00.906 --> 00:11:02.326 CJ: How do we get started and fixing it? 00:11:03.646 --> 00:11:04.036 Duke: Okay. 00:11:04.056 --> 00:11:07.416 So I don't think we're hopeless in terms of tech, technical solutions. 00:11:07.456 --> 00:11:11.236 I see hints of emerging tech that can help us with it. 00:11:12.086 --> 00:11:12.376 Okay. 00:11:12.376 --> 00:11:14.886 Like, Upgrade center is one of them. 00:11:15.326 --> 00:11:17.796 Upgrade center gives you a hint of what could be right. 00:11:17.806 --> 00:11:23.936 So upgrade center is like, well, here's visually a look at the conflicts 00:11:24.036 --> 00:11:25.386 that are generated by this upgrade. 00:11:25.635 --> 00:11:26.125 CJ: Right. 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.090 Duke: So there is some sense that some tools can see , wait, 00:11:30.100 --> 00:11:31.060 this isn't out of box. 00:11:31.060 --> 00:11:31.640 CJ: Wait, say that 00:11:31.735 --> 00:11:38.075 Duke: so there's, well, upgrade center , can basically show you , that the system 00:11:38.075 --> 00:11:41.225 can identify where the system is not. 00:11:41.590 --> 00:11:42.380 , out of box. 00:11:42.530 --> 00:11:42.990 CJ: Right. 00:11:43.030 --> 00:11:43.290 Right. 00:11:43.290 --> 00:11:43.470 Right. 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:43.710 Right. 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:44.000 No. 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:44.400 And 00:11:44.420 --> 00:11:48.300 Duke: So , it does its own thing, its own way for its own context. 00:11:48.300 --> 00:11:48.480 Right. 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:53.850 But , it's got a hint, a shade of what we would need for a technical solution, 00:11:54.250 --> 00:12:00.560 or at least a technical tool crutch, I'm not sure what the right noun is to 00:12:00.560 --> 00:12:02.080 help address the invisibility problem. 00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:05.623 Like if I could have my druthers, it would be something that 00:12:06.313 --> 00:12:08.453 identifies modules correctly. 00:12:08.563 --> 00:12:09.153 CJ: right. 00:12:09.445 --> 00:12:13.405 Duke: Just imagine a big square that is ITSM, right? 00:12:13.485 --> 00:12:19.635 And the square is maybe shaded or colored depending on how much stuff is Either 00:12:19.665 --> 00:12:22.711 added to or updated from out of box, 00:12:22.936 --> 00:12:23.226 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:23.266 --> 00:12:23.466 Yep. 00:12:23.496 --> 00:12:23.896 Yep. 00:12:24.025 --> 00:12:28.491 Duke: Something that can visually show you like other scoped apps, And then 00:12:28.491 --> 00:12:33.111 also code them in terms of some kind of usage like yeah, you have this big scoped 00:12:33.121 --> 00:12:35.121 up You've got the banana app over here, 00:12:35.316 --> 00:12:35.606 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:35.636 --> 00:12:35.926 Yeah. 00:12:37.476 --> 00:12:40.666 Duke: Maybe just say there's been 10 transactions over the 00:12:40.666 --> 00:12:42.426 past six months on banana app. 00:12:42.810 --> 00:12:43.300 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:43.380 --> 00:12:46.980 Duke: so it's kind of like, here's all the stuff like a abstraction. 00:12:47.410 --> 00:12:51.640 I mean, even, the visualizations for CMDB could be utilized to this end. 00:12:52.520 --> 00:12:53.080 CJ: Right. 00:12:53.420 --> 00:12:55.710 Duke: Like something that just shows the interconnected pieces, 00:12:55.860 --> 00:12:59.200 like these two scoped apps share these, cross scope dependencies. 00:12:59.413 --> 00:13:02.533 so we know that they interact together, so like, join them together. 00:13:03.368 --> 00:13:03.688 CJ: Yep. 00:13:03.758 --> 00:13:04.038 Yep. 00:13:04.178 --> 00:13:05.618 I'm liking where you're going with this Duke. 00:13:05.648 --> 00:13:08.958 I mean, it's going to one of our favorite words, I think, but keep going. 00:13:09.903 --> 00:13:10.673 Duke: One of our favorite 00:13:10.928 --> 00:13:11.288 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:11.288 --> 00:13:11.598 Yeah. 00:13:11.598 --> 00:13:13.918 No, this is elevating towards one of our favorite words. 00:13:13.918 --> 00:13:14.608 Absolutely. 00:13:15.293 --> 00:13:19.543 Duke: um, Yeah, so, um, I guess the document, the, 00:13:19.788 --> 00:13:20.108 CJ: it's easy. 00:13:20.293 --> 00:13:21.873 Duke: Ah, there we go! 00:13:21.953 --> 00:13:23.153 I felt it, did you feel that? 00:13:23.193 --> 00:13:23.583 I felt that. 00:13:26.688 --> 00:13:29.168 CJ: The documentation, right? 00:13:29.218 --> 00:13:32.538 Like, you know, is one is probably the first level of defense 00:13:32.538 --> 00:13:33.908 against the invisibility problem. 00:13:34.403 --> 00:13:36.953 Duke: yeah, because documentation is something that you can solve now. 00:13:37.338 --> 00:13:37.948 CJ: Right. 00:13:38.513 --> 00:13:41.583 Duke: we can daydream about what an adequate solution to the 00:13:42.103 --> 00:13:45.643 invisibility technically would be right, but it's still not there 00:13:45.918 --> 00:13:46.618 CJ: Right. 00:13:47.233 --> 00:13:48.683 Duke: and anybody who decides to build it. 00:13:48.693 --> 00:13:53.783 , just remember your guy, the Duke here that helped you decide on building 00:13:53.783 --> 00:13:55.563 that, but yeah, you're right. 00:13:55.563 --> 00:13:57.813 and go and see our documentation episode. 00:13:57.863 --> 00:13:59.433 It'll be link will be in the description below. 00:13:59.493 --> 00:14:00.363 Everybody take a shot. 00:14:00.578 --> 00:14:01.058 CJ: Boom. 00:14:01.913 --> 00:14:06.783 Duke: because we'll say it again, just people just sleep on documentation. 00:14:07.423 --> 00:14:08.243 They sleep on it. 00:14:08.243 --> 00:14:09.393 It's like, is it that important? 00:14:09.463 --> 00:14:13.743 Well, consider how dangerous the invisibility. 00:14:13.743 --> 00:14:18.483 I don't know how to shut that off either. 00:14:18.483 --> 00:14:19.893 I'm even in do not disturb mode. 00:14:19.893 --> 00:14:20.033 I can't. 00:14:21.641 --> 00:14:22.871 CJ: like, disturb 00:14:23.536 --> 00:14:26.576 Duke: If you just consider how bad the invisibility problem is 00:14:26.576 --> 00:14:27.746 for you, how else would you do it? 00:14:27.756 --> 00:14:30.236 Like, every time you're doing a significant deployment, at 00:14:30.276 --> 00:14:34.476 least write something in some master guide to your instance. 00:14:34.846 --> 00:14:36.206 It's not that hard. 00:14:36.346 --> 00:14:42.076 if you're deciding to deploy something big, like SPM or service mapping or, 00:14:42.486 --> 00:14:46.596 whatever, any big app , it could take you like 15 minutes to at least write 00:14:46.596 --> 00:14:50.396 something in a document that contains all your other major initiatives that have 00:14:50.396 --> 00:14:51.656 happened over the life of the thing. 00:14:52.053 --> 00:14:56.613 At least then you have an idea of what you've got deployed. 00:14:58.193 --> 00:15:00.733 Who's the owner, who are the prime stakeholders? 00:15:00.733 --> 00:15:02.273 Why did they decide to do it? 00:15:02.726 --> 00:15:07.076 Even if you had just that, you'd be so far ahead of a lot of other 00:15:07.416 --> 00:15:10.811 customers, a lot of other partners, if you can provide this to the 00:15:10.831 --> 00:15:13.311 CJ: Let me tell you another reason why you should do documentation Duke. 00:15:13.311 --> 00:15:15.691 And it's a, it's a reason that didn't exist probably when 00:15:15.691 --> 00:15:16.811 we made the episode, right? 00:15:16.811 --> 00:15:21.421 Or if it did exist, ? It was probably still in this emphasis of being valuable, 00:15:21.651 --> 00:15:25.251 but gen AI makes documentation scale. 00:15:25.536 --> 00:15:29.276 To 100 X 1000 X is previous usefulness, right? 00:15:29.496 --> 00:15:33.456 Because in the past, you actually had to read the documentation, you had to 00:15:33.456 --> 00:15:38.626 search through all of the volumes and the sacred tomes of knowledge in order 00:15:38.626 --> 00:15:42.543 to find the thing that you're looking for, which in AI, you just let that thing 00:15:42.543 --> 00:15:45.273 consume like your internal knowledge. 00:15:45.423 --> 00:15:47.093 I think you just ask it questions. 00:15:47.778 --> 00:15:50.768 So you no longer have to read all the tomes, right? 00:15:50.768 --> 00:15:53.505 Somebody else just did it for you, So all you got to do is 00:15:53.505 --> 00:15:54.945 make sure you write them as 00:15:55.050 --> 00:15:58.090 Duke: man, are we doing, are we turning this episode into a Gen AI episode again? 00:15:59.950 --> 00:16:00.740 I don't mind. 00:16:00.780 --> 00:16:01.320 I don't mind. 00:16:02.425 --> 00:16:05.235 CJ: But I just, but right, like, it's just the power of it, right? 00:16:05.235 --> 00:16:07.598 Like, I think it's just going to keep coming up, as a theme and a 00:16:07.598 --> 00:16:12.038 lot of episodes, you know, going forward, ? Because , when you combine 00:16:12.048 --> 00:16:16.231 documentation with gen AI, like visibility, becomes the result. 00:16:16.306 --> 00:16:17.506 And how do you counter invisibility? 00:16:17.506 --> 00:16:18.096 What visibility? 00:16:19.578 --> 00:16:24.438 So boom, if you needed any more encouragement on why you should 00:16:24.438 --> 00:16:29.188 document like that right there should be the ultimate business case or 00:16:29.198 --> 00:16:32.828 the ultimate like case in value and the ultimate thing that, that, that 00:16:32.848 --> 00:16:36.778 spurs you towards, just doing more massive levels of documentation. 00:16:36.951 --> 00:16:39.071 Massive levels of documentation. 00:16:39.616 --> 00:16:41.006 Duke: Yeah, but let's, okay. 00:16:41.006 --> 00:16:44.976 So the one thing I would caution about a Gen AI solution to this is that the 00:16:44.976 --> 00:16:47.666 Gen AI solution can't read intent. 00:16:48.218 --> 00:16:48.938 CJ: I don't know. 00:16:48.958 --> 00:16:49.558 Sometimes. 00:16:49.558 --> 00:16:51.628 I mean, have you ever, you, you've used strategy BT. 00:16:51.628 --> 00:16:53.538 Sometimes I think that things read in my mind. 00:16:54.498 --> 00:16:58.778 Duke: I did a chat, a chat GPT thing to modify some Excel's for resource 00:16:58.778 --> 00:17:00.318 management imports last week. 00:17:00.388 --> 00:17:02.218 It must've saved me now. 00:17:02.218 --> 00:17:07.478 I use, I dedicated like five hours to this, to think about how I would have 00:17:07.478 --> 00:17:09.368 pulled this off on my own and Excel. 00:17:09.553 --> 00:17:13.570 Would it, it would have taken me hundreds of hours of just like, 00:17:13.570 --> 00:17:14.990 oh, how do I do this in Excel? 00:17:14.990 --> 00:17:15.950 And then experimenting. 00:17:15.950 --> 00:17:18.570 And I just told chat GPT to do it. 00:17:18.580 --> 00:17:19.080 And it did. 00:17:19.090 --> 00:17:23.310 So like, believe me when I say I have firsthand experience about how 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:29.760 crazy, crazy powerful that thing could be, but it still couldn't tell 00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:31.930 me, why do you think I'm doing this? 00:17:32.785 --> 00:17:36.935 CJ: Yeah, but it could tell you what you wrote to tell it 00:17:37.015 --> 00:17:38.230 why you think you're doing it. 00:17:38.690 --> 00:17:41.390 Right, like there's a mission statement that can accompany 00:17:41.390 --> 00:17:43.050 the documentation, right? 00:17:43.050 --> 00:17:45.270 We just made this change during this upgrade. 00:17:45.270 --> 00:17:46.520 Why do we make this upgrade? 00:17:46.620 --> 00:17:48.630 ? These are the 5 reasons we made the upgrade. 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:49.930 Now you got a statement of intent. 00:17:49.930 --> 00:17:52.933 The chat GPT can tell you, you just got to know up front, that 00:17:52.993 --> 00:17:54.693 intent is the thing that you value. 00:17:54.943 --> 00:17:57.233 And so you include in the documentation when you're creating it. 00:17:57.556 --> 00:17:57.946 Duke: Yeah. 00:17:58.161 --> 00:18:01.961 CJ: Ultimately, I think what this will do is , once you democratize 00:18:01.961 --> 00:18:05.071 the knowledge, , democratize , the output of the documentation, right? 00:18:05.071 --> 00:18:07.401 Because what we've always done is required it. 00:18:07.906 --> 00:18:08.156 Right. 00:18:08.176 --> 00:18:09.636 Or, encouraged it. 00:18:09.816 --> 00:18:12.336 . And then, so it gets created and then nobody ever reads it. 00:18:12.636 --> 00:18:16.656 . But when you start to be able to, create value from it, . Through again, Jenny, 00:18:16.656 --> 00:18:18.486 I being able to ask it these questions. 00:18:18.726 --> 00:18:20.976 Now you can actually see what's missing, right? 00:18:20.976 --> 00:18:24.846 Like you can see what you actually asked it to do that you didn't get. 00:18:25.006 --> 00:18:28.006 , but that you didn't require, what you asked folks to deliver 00:18:28.216 --> 00:18:29.656 that wasn't being included. 00:18:29.816 --> 00:18:32.486 And then you can go back and adjust your standards so that 00:18:32.486 --> 00:18:33.506 you're getting all the things. 00:18:33.916 --> 00:18:36.386 That going into it that you want to see come out the other end. 00:18:37.606 --> 00:18:40.086 . And now you've got this, virtuous cycle, this continuous 00:18:40.086 --> 00:18:42.586 improvement around documentation. 00:18:42.586 --> 00:18:46.016 And man, if that ain't ITIL and ITSM. 00:18:47.683 --> 00:18:52.550 Duke: super, 00:18:52.800 --> 00:18:55.750 CJ: problem to documentation, but that's what we do here with documents. 00:18:55.750 --> 00:18:58.610 I, I, is there a documentation consortium? 00:18:58.830 --> 00:19:00.300 I swear we should be sponsored. 00:19:02.410 --> 00:19:03.860 Duke: like, super sponsored by that. 00:19:04.030 --> 00:19:08.336 Like, Hey, listen, if you are a company that thinks they've got 00:19:08.336 --> 00:19:12.496 the documentation problem licked on service now, get an episode. 00:19:12.746 --> 00:19:13.176 CJ: Yeah, no 00:19:13.416 --> 00:19:13.866 Duke: now is. 00:19:14.281 --> 00:19:15.721 Yeah, like get an episode. 00:19:15.951 --> 00:19:16.711 , it would help the community. 00:19:16.961 --> 00:19:20.101 Look, sometimes what we do on CJ and the Duke is we just point at a 00:19:20.101 --> 00:19:21.951 problem and articulate the problem. 00:19:21.951 --> 00:19:23.681 We're not saying we got all the answers here. 00:19:24.546 --> 00:19:25.236 CJ: Speak for yourself, 00:19:25.321 --> 00:19:26.491 Duke: Just, just most of them. 00:19:26.501 --> 00:19:27.271 We got most of it. 00:19:30.141 --> 00:19:33.211 But even we, believe it or not, have weaknesses. 00:19:34.256 --> 00:19:34.686 CJ: Yeah. 00:19:34.686 --> 00:19:34.926 Yeah. 00:19:34.926 --> 00:19:35.306 I mean, right. 00:19:35.306 --> 00:19:36.756 Even Superman's got kryptonite. 00:19:36.766 --> 00:19:37.056 Right. 00:19:37.086 --> 00:19:39.996 I mean, I don't think I'm not quite sure Batman has any weaknesses, but that 00:19:39.996 --> 00:19:42.106 is an entirely different conversation. 00:19:42.131 --> 00:19:42.961 Duke: isn't that crazy? 00:19:42.961 --> 00:19:45.711 Like, being rich is a better superpower than being a Kryptonian. 00:19:47.066 --> 00:19:47.516 CJ: Right. 00:19:50.326 --> 00:19:51.186 Gotta love it, man. 00:19:51.206 --> 00:19:52.136 You gotta love it. 00:19:53.056 --> 00:19:54.836 I love that line in the movie too. 00:19:54.936 --> 00:19:56.246 He's like, what's your superpower? 00:19:56.486 --> 00:19:57.296 I'm rich. 00:20:00.651 --> 00:20:01.241 Duke: Oh man. 00:20:01.586 --> 00:20:01.976 CJ: So, 00:20:01.991 --> 00:20:05.031 Duke: can't tell me that if you hit the, like, the, the power ball in Illinois 00:20:05.031 --> 00:20:06.061 is like over a billion right now, 00:20:06.456 --> 00:20:07.096 CJ: yeah, I know. 00:20:07.096 --> 00:20:08.036 I mean, you got to go play. 00:20:08.101 --> 00:20:11.311 I 00:20:11.371 --> 00:20:15.881 Duke: I would be like, I would be like not doing surface now stuff. 00:20:15.881 --> 00:20:18.441 I'd be like, what does it really take to build a wingsuit? 00:20:19.371 --> 00:20:22.261 CJ: would be doing ServiceNow stuff as Batman. 00:20:22.531 --> 00:20:24.611 I would show up to knowledge as Batman. 00:20:24.731 --> 00:20:25.961 I would absolutely do that. 00:20:26.421 --> 00:20:27.111 Just because. 00:20:27.671 --> 00:20:28.331 Like, why not? 00:20:29.281 --> 00:20:30.211 So, what's the 00:20:30.421 --> 00:20:31.271 Duke: That was a cool tangent. 00:20:32.516 --> 00:20:35.526 CJ: But what's the next thing we could do Duke on, creating visibility 00:20:35.726 --> 00:20:37.746 around the invisible problem, right? 00:20:37.746 --> 00:20:39.066 Like I know documentation, right? 00:20:39.066 --> 00:20:40.346 We just went, really went through that. 00:20:40.346 --> 00:20:41.966 And what else can we do? 00:20:42.246 --> 00:20:45.216 . , Duke: I'm not sure if it's the same problem, but it has the same name 00:20:45.626 --> 00:20:46.066 CJ: Okay. 00:20:46.196 --> 00:20:46.596 Okay. 00:20:46.776 --> 00:20:48.116 Duke: of the invisibility problem. 00:20:48.256 --> 00:20:51.627 And that is , do you know how to use service now? 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.020 and how it's all supposed to work. 00:20:55.694 --> 00:20:59.434 I don't want to take anything away from our, rich, vibrant, diverse. 00:21:00.549 --> 00:21:03.079 Service now technologist ecosystem. 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:03.409 Right. 00:21:03.902 --> 00:21:06.622 But imagine you're a customer and you're just like, listen, we made all the 00:21:06.622 --> 00:21:11.532 investments, like we've got this giant team internal, we have vendors for stuff. 00:21:11.852 --> 00:21:14.532 But man, it's been a couple of years since we deployed SPM. 00:21:14.762 --> 00:21:19.012 I'm hearing all these whispers that there is, new strategic planning stuff, 00:21:19.812 --> 00:21:21.832 new ways of doing resource management. 00:21:22.042 --> 00:21:23.352 And I go and research this. 00:21:23.722 --> 00:21:26.362 I've gone through, , 10, 15 different docs pages. 00:21:26.382 --> 00:21:28.392 Oh, there's a screenshot of a resource management. 00:21:29.002 --> 00:21:29.452 Process. 00:21:29.452 --> 00:21:32.462 And even though we, do resource management, we've never seen that 00:21:32.462 --> 00:21:34.262 interface before, what the heck is that? 00:21:34.942 --> 00:21:36.002 How do I get to that? 00:21:36.345 --> 00:21:42.245 And it's just maybe invisibility problem is the wrong It's effectively invisible 00:21:42.245 --> 00:21:47.695 in that I can't find decent enough information to grow my knowledge visually. 00:21:48.340 --> 00:21:48.620 . CJ: Yeah. 00:21:48.620 --> 00:21:49.800 No, that's a really good point. 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:55.310 When I first started on the platform over 10 years ago, the thing that I recall, 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:56.710 it's a lot of things I recall, right? 00:21:56.710 --> 00:21:57.930 1 of 1 of those is right. 00:21:57.930 --> 00:21:58.610 Click everything. 00:21:58.750 --> 00:22:02.280 , but another thing that I recall was when talking about. 00:22:02.370 --> 00:22:06.480 How do you use ServiceNow and how do you communicate, how do you use 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.360 ServiceNow to, , my, my user community? 00:22:09.370 --> 00:22:13.530 . And the thing that I was told by , a lot of folks at ServiceNow and even 00:22:13.530 --> 00:22:14.800 a lot of folks in the community is. 00:22:15.255 --> 00:22:18.485 That you don't have to, it's so intuitive. 00:22:18.685 --> 00:22:22.415 You just drop the, instance in front of them and people get it. 00:22:23.065 --> 00:22:28.595 Now, I can't say whether, whether or not that was true, , 12 or 13 years ago, I 00:22:28.595 --> 00:22:31.185 can tell you that now that it's not true. 00:22:31.625 --> 00:22:35.665 there's and that's just , the ultimate outcome of the platform 00:22:35.665 --> 00:22:37.865 evolving to do so much stuff. 00:22:38.660 --> 00:22:39.000 Duke: Yep. 00:22:39.525 --> 00:22:43.335 , CJ: and now there's so many different types of interfaces and so many 00:22:43.335 --> 00:22:46.595 different types of screens that you get presented with and so many different 00:22:46.605 --> 00:22:48.575 types of actions that you can take. 00:22:48.795 --> 00:22:55.265 , there's just no way to convey This is how you do it, drop it in front of 00:22:55.265 --> 00:22:56.685 somebody and just let them poke around. 00:22:56.795 --> 00:23:01.305 So as you were saying, we need more communication around that. 00:23:01.655 --> 00:23:03.155 And I think you're right. 00:23:03.155 --> 00:23:04.425 , I don't know where to go. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:06.850 I'll tell you why I do go occasionally. 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:11.020 Like I've been in the lurch before delivering a new pro a new process, right. 00:23:11.020 --> 00:23:15.560 That, , unexpectedly had some attributes to it or some, wrinkles to it, . That 00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:18.860 I didn't expect to encounter, , cause most stuff on service now platform 00:23:18.860 --> 00:23:22.030 builds off the platform functionality and you can get the rest, right. 00:23:22.410 --> 00:23:25.720 I ran into some, some parts of this thing where it's like, okay, , I'm stuck. 00:23:26.230 --> 00:23:29.130 I go to YouTube, . And there are some folks out there who 00:23:29.130 --> 00:23:30.310 have created some extensive. 00:23:32.470 --> 00:23:38.150 Extensive, videos, of a process where it is literally today, we're going to 00:23:38.150 --> 00:23:43.280 talk about virtual agent and you are literally watching four hours of somebody 00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:48.650 start to finish, like spin this thing up, go through almost every screen, 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:54.294 almost every attribute, almost every system property, But is that efficient? 00:23:54.294 --> 00:23:55.174 I don't think that's efficient. 00:23:55.194 --> 00:23:56.324 Like I was in alerts, right? 00:23:56.324 --> 00:23:57.204 It was a Sunday. 00:23:57.444 --> 00:23:59.304 I got a, I had a demo on Monday. 00:23:59.304 --> 00:24:00.744 I needed to make sure I knew how this thing works. 00:24:00.754 --> 00:24:03.164 So I was watching every, all four hours of that thing. 00:24:03.424 --> 00:24:05.184 But like that's not efficient. 00:24:05.194 --> 00:24:09.014 Like you would, that's, that can't be how we get this level of knowledge. 00:24:09.014 --> 00:24:09.424 Right. 00:24:09.744 --> 00:24:10.334 Or can it, 00:24:10.581 --> 00:24:11.071 Duke: I don't know, 00:24:11.491 --> 00:24:11.521 CJ: right. 00:24:11.521 --> 00:24:14.745 Right. 00:24:16.001 --> 00:24:20.921 Duke: I feel that pain very deeply in just my efforts to stay on top 00:24:20.921 --> 00:24:24.571 of as much of service now as I can, some of my favorite implementations 00:24:24.571 --> 00:24:26.360 have been SPM implementations. 00:24:26.981 --> 00:24:30.111 Some of the most difficult parts of those implementations has been resource 00:24:30.111 --> 00:24:35.884 management and I, and I'm totally open to the idea that it's just me, right? 00:24:35.884 --> 00:24:37.864 Like I'm the dummy here, right? 00:24:38.307 --> 00:24:43.057 But I feel like it's so difficult to figure out how this thing is growing, 00:24:43.181 --> 00:24:46.011 and how it's supposed to work now. 00:24:46.311 --> 00:24:49.141 So you hear these whispers that, Hey, there's this new 00:24:49.781 --> 00:24:51.831 strategic resource planning. 00:24:52.129 --> 00:24:53.169 I don't even know if it's called that. 00:24:53.169 --> 00:24:53.509 I did. 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:55.739 I did like a couple hours diving through docs about it. 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:56.299 , earlier in the 00:24:56.449 --> 00:24:56.809 CJ: Okay. 00:24:57.489 --> 00:25:00.979 Duke: I don't even know if it's called that, but I'm searching docs. 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:03.219 I'm finding stuff and it's like, oh, it's different. 00:25:03.229 --> 00:25:06.339 Like, are they retiring the old resource management? 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:07.649 That's what it sounds like. 00:25:07.889 --> 00:25:10.419 Maybe this new resource management is the only resource management you 00:25:10.419 --> 00:25:11.919 need, but then you find other docs. 00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:13.069 It's like, no, they go together. 00:25:13.154 --> 00:25:15.054 they're two different resource management things, but they 00:25:15.054 --> 00:25:16.244 solve two different problems. 00:25:16.244 --> 00:25:20.797 And I'm like, where are the, , rigidly focused documents 00:25:20.917 --> 00:25:23.257 about how this should work? 00:25:23.712 --> 00:25:24.102 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:24.627 --> 00:25:28.807 Duke: We have bits and pieces, we get videos on ServiceNow's main 00:25:28.902 --> 00:25:29.372 CJ: No, hold on. 00:25:29.372 --> 00:25:29.682 Hold on. 00:25:29.882 --> 00:25:30.322 Hold on, dude. 00:25:30.492 --> 00:25:30.992 Hold on, dude. 00:25:31.192 --> 00:25:33.942 You said how this should work. 00:25:33.962 --> 00:25:34.812 I think that's key. 00:25:35.082 --> 00:25:37.832 I think, I think that's something that needs to be highlighted, right? 00:25:37.832 --> 00:25:40.612 Because I think docs tells us how it works, right? 00:25:40.612 --> 00:25:41.322 Like, this is the thing. 00:25:41.322 --> 00:25:42.172 These are the things. 00:25:42.202 --> 00:25:42.742 Duke: even do that. 00:25:42.742 --> 00:25:45.922 I mean, like, listen, no, no, no, I'm not taking anything away from the docs. 00:25:45.952 --> 00:25:48.862 People have an incredibly difficult job, but you're right. 00:25:48.872 --> 00:25:50.882 Docs is very like definitional 00:25:51.092 --> 00:25:51.712 CJ: Definitional. 00:25:51.712 --> 00:25:51.952 Thank 00:25:51.952 --> 00:25:53.612 Duke: it is, not how it should work. 00:25:53.782 --> 00:25:56.002 And that's that's an invisibility thing too. 00:25:56.002 --> 00:26:00.442 And I think it's one that I mean, I don't think the professional services world 00:26:00.452 --> 00:26:02.402 would be half as large as it is today. 00:26:02.422 --> 00:26:05.512 If there was Really good assets about front to back. 00:26:05.582 --> 00:26:07.332 This is how ITBM works. 00:26:07.952 --> 00:26:09.212 Sorry, SPM now. 00:26:11.186 --> 00:26:13.926 And it's not like that's an easy thing to do either. 00:26:13.926 --> 00:26:17.386 Like one of my most successful SPM implementations was only successful 00:26:17.386 --> 00:26:23.376 because I like the first two weeks of the deployment was essentially 00:26:23.376 --> 00:26:24.716 like a two week long demo. 00:26:25.066 --> 00:26:27.856 , here's how we do everything on SPM. 00:26:28.149 --> 00:26:32.499 Everything from , taking it from the ideation process, the demand process. 00:26:33.329 --> 00:26:38.089 All the way through, , resource planning and then, everything to do with project 00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:41.369 and portfolio management, or like right down to the nitty gritty stuff 00:26:41.399 --> 00:26:44.116 like baselines , and RIDAC management. 00:26:44.611 --> 00:26:45.481 And that kind of stuff. 00:26:46.281 --> 00:26:51.531 . But it was like, at the end of that, we had hours and hours and hours of video 00:26:51.531 --> 00:26:59.441 recording talking like 80 hours where it was like, here's how we do it out of box. 00:27:00.241 --> 00:27:04.544 And not only did that help us get them to understand, here's exactly 00:27:04.544 --> 00:27:08.064 how it works because you don't go from buying to understanding how it works. 00:27:08.634 --> 00:27:09.184 CJ: that's true. 00:27:09.464 --> 00:27:09.924 That's true. 00:27:10.574 --> 00:27:11.044 That's true. 00:27:11.224 --> 00:27:13.584 you get told that it does the thing that you're looking to do. 00:27:14.209 --> 00:27:14.519 Duke: Yeah. 00:27:14.659 --> 00:27:18.009 But it also flushed out, here's the stuff that we're super excited about. 00:27:18.019 --> 00:27:20.439 We didn't know it did this and we can totally get rid of this 00:27:20.509 --> 00:27:23.489 BS process that we've been doing to compensate for our old tools. 00:27:23.634 --> 00:27:23.924 CJ: Yeah. 00:27:23.924 --> 00:27:24.374 Fair. 00:27:24.574 --> 00:27:24.764 Duke: Okay. 00:27:24.764 --> 00:27:28.394 But it also flushes out the, okay, this is going to be problematic. 00:27:29.194 --> 00:27:29.734 CJ: Right. 00:27:29.984 --> 00:27:35.124 Duke: how am I supposed to reconcile the invoices for my external labor that 00:27:35.124 --> 00:27:40.201 says, here's how many hours we've done when I'm doing the time cards in service 00:27:40.221 --> 00:27:46.141 now, and I can't break the time card out per month, how could I do my monthly 00:27:46.151 --> 00:27:48.161 billing reconciliations on my labor? 00:27:48.376 --> 00:27:51.576 When I can't break a time card out into months now, that's an old problem 00:27:51.576 --> 00:27:54.106 that got fixed, but that's exactly the type of stuff I'm talking about 00:27:54.126 --> 00:27:59.662 is it sucks how this stuff should be deployed is every bit as invisible, 00:27:59.896 --> 00:28:01.566 meaning I can't look at something. 00:28:01.566 --> 00:28:04.429 I can't watch something to tell me how it's done. 00:28:04.899 --> 00:28:05.149 Sorry. 00:28:05.149 --> 00:28:06.399 I just totally went on a rant there. 00:28:06.494 --> 00:28:06.944 CJ: I know. 00:28:06.954 --> 00:28:07.484 It's all good. 00:28:07.744 --> 00:28:10.794 So what I'm hearing Duke is that maybe process that I mentioned, right? 00:28:10.814 --> 00:28:13.694 Maybe that those YouTube videos, maybe that's the process. 00:28:14.095 --> 00:28:18.599 Of how this should be deployed , and maybe it's not just the YouTube videos, 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.339 maybe it's more visibility, more graphic centered, , UI in your face, 00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:26.942 here's an image , of the process, and here's a little bit of, X, Y, and Z. 00:28:26.942 --> 00:28:31.022 And, oh, here's another screen of , where you should be and how this looks. 00:28:31.092 --> 00:28:32.932 And here's another screen. 00:28:33.002 --> 00:28:36.562 , and honestly, even as someone who's been doing this for a long, 00:28:36.562 --> 00:28:38.772 long, long, long time, right? 00:28:38.812 --> 00:28:43.882 I do feel like the learning aspect of service now is a challenge. 00:28:43.929 --> 00:28:48.105 Because you'd only have so much time to devote to it, right? 00:28:48.285 --> 00:28:52.165 When you are trying to get into the ecosystem, if you're a career changer, 00:28:52.275 --> 00:28:55.255 you only have so much time to devote because you typically are still 00:28:55.255 --> 00:29:00.605 maintaining your previous job while trying to learn to break into this new job. 00:29:01.115 --> 00:29:05.655 . As someone who is an independent consultant, I am typically trying 00:29:05.655 --> 00:29:07.455 to make sure I can pay my mortgage. 00:29:07.785 --> 00:29:09.645 And so I've got clients, right? 00:29:09.645 --> 00:29:12.405 And so I'm , delivering services while also. 00:29:12.630 --> 00:29:15.820 Trying to learn and keep abreast so that can keep getting 00:29:15.820 --> 00:29:17.740 clients and delivering services. 00:29:17.740 --> 00:29:20.950 ? So the time and not to mention like everything else, family 00:29:20.950 --> 00:29:21.740 time, et cetera, et cetera. 00:29:21.740 --> 00:29:24.290 We're just gonna put that in the bucket and call that a known. 00:29:24.430 --> 00:29:29.290 ? And so how do you like, how do you find the time to consume this stuff 00:29:29.320 --> 00:29:32.850 in the most efficient way possible and get the most value out of it? 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.010 possible as well without it taking me. 00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:37.780 The equivalent of an additional full time job. 00:29:37.780 --> 00:29:43.624 And Oh, by the way, Duke, we're also recording a podcast, yeah, I mean, 00:29:43.624 --> 00:29:45.084 this is, this is definitely an issue. 00:29:45.084 --> 00:29:48.774 Duke: and I think maybe since we're at 34 minutes of record, maybe we leave 00:29:48.784 --> 00:29:50.914 that for the newcomers out there. 00:29:51.034 --> 00:29:53.719 how can you get the best bang for your buck? 00:29:54.029 --> 00:29:58.582 Learning the tool, learning a process, having assets that you can point 00:29:58.592 --> 00:30:00.172 to saying, look at how good I am. 00:30:00.752 --> 00:30:01.482 CJ: Yeah, 00:30:01.807 --> 00:30:04.654 Duke: try and solve the invisibility problem like with a playbook, 00:30:04.754 --> 00:30:06.214 CJ: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 00:30:06.469 --> 00:30:08.559 , Duke: here is how ITSM works. 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:12.039 , here's how you do every function in incident management and document it 00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:15.809 as if you were handing that over to a person of this is how it should work. 00:30:15.959 --> 00:30:18.891 And I guarantee you, like not even a whole lot of partners have that out there. 00:30:18.891 --> 00:30:19.299 And then 00:30:19.724 --> 00:30:20.244 CJ: Yeah. 00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:21.809 Duke: have an asset that you could just take with you. 00:30:22.024 --> 00:30:22.674 CJ: I love that. 00:30:22.844 --> 00:30:25.464 I think that's a great, a great segment of the market that 00:30:25.464 --> 00:30:26.834 new folks can, concentrate on. 00:30:27.130 --> 00:30:27.800 Duke: All right, folks. 00:30:27.834 --> 00:30:28.734 another one in the books. 00:30:28.734 --> 00:30:29.794 Thanks for listening. 00:30:29.844 --> 00:30:32.474 , if you want to come and talk about the invisibility problem, maybe you got a 00:30:32.474 --> 00:30:35.454 solution or two of your own more than happy, just please reach out to us 00:30:35.484 --> 00:30:36.784 and we will see you on the next one. 00:30:36.924 --> 00:30:37.544 CJ: All right. 00:30:37.664 --> 00:30:37.784 Bye. 00:30:37.784 --> 00:30:38.184 Bye. 00:30:38.570 --> 00:30:39.410 Still no outro.