Welcome to the podcast. Here's a sneak peek of
what's coming up in today's episode. Did you used to be crap
at sales? Yes. How crap were we talking? Awful, really, really,
really bad. If I rewind to like, the first sales job, I thought
selling was being Del boy from only fools and horses. I really
thought the gift of the gab was selling, but I was really good
at booking appointments. You were the top Booker. I was the
top Booker, but nothing ever closed, nothing ever closed,
except maybe one deal, apart from one at the back end. Maybe
my whole career, up until a few years ago, was was music, but
sales pays the bills. And I thought, like, this boy bands
gonna take off. We're gonna be the next big thing. Move over.
JLS, we're in town. We're taking over. I was like, just do this
until it takes on. I remember, like, being on the phone, but
then I'm like, my head is somewhere else. I'm like,
dreaming about, oh, what would it be like to play the O2 arena?
You really, honestly, when we sort of spoke about Reed before
off camera. You said that you got promoted too quickly. And
the only person in Reed, don't mean to laugh, but the only
person in Reed's history to get demoted. What the hell happened
A lot of salespeople, like, especially when we think about
there?
like, SDRs, AES, a lot of them are like 20 to 30. And within
20/30 there's that question mark of, like, what is my life? What
am I doing? Where am I going to be? I'm probably like, 25/26 I'm
like, this isn't the path that I thought I'd be on. I'm just
working like a cruddy sales job. What's the point? I saw a
picture of you and Chris Voss, and I thought that was just some
weird post. That's bullshit. There's no way you sat with
Chris Voss for an hour. He charges like 10 grand an hour.
Be a cheeky Northerner. You'll get it for free, right? Let's
hear that story. What happened?
mark ackers: Hello and welcome to another episode of The I used
to be crap at sales Podcast. I'm Mark Ackers, your host, co
founder and Head of Sales here at my sales coach, and today in
the big orange chair, I'm joined by the Director of Sales
consultancy, co director and head of sales at WAM. That's we
have a meeting at a time of recording 24,000 LinkedIn
followers, a man obsessed with cold calling and death, and
that's just all LinkedIn says they've also worked in an Amazon
warehouse on a cruise ship. They sold recruitment services Ivas
and every type of insurance you can think of, from commercial to
life, even Sky remote control insurance up and you spend time
trying to make it in a boy band full time. You probably worked
out when I said, wham, we have a we have a meeting. But in case
you didn't, today's guest is Jack frimston. Jack big, welcome
to the podcast and the orange chairs. Thank you for having me.
That was lovely. What you said it was like flashing back all
those awful memories. What was the most awful memory at
flashback the Amazon warehouse was was very, very bad. That was
like during covid. I thought, You know what? It can't be that
bad. I'll just get to make sure, like, pocket money. Yeah, it was
awful. I feel like I could just talk to you for an hour about
how the intricacies of Amazon works, but we won't do that.
That wouldn't make for a good podcast up there on my brain.
Um, let's kick it off with a yes. No question, did you used
to be crap at sales? Yes.
Jack Frimston: How crap are we talking awful, really, really,
really bad. I'd even go as far to say as, like, it's only it's
such like an egotistical thing to say, like, I'm good at sales
now, but obviously, like, I like to think that I'm all right at
selling, and I've got a bit of an understanding. But if I
rewind to, like, the first sales job, I thought selling was being
delboy from Only Fools and Horses. I thought, I really
thought the gift of the gab was selling, which, as you get older
in life and wiser, you realize it's the total opposite.
mark ackers: So that's a great place to start. We've got you in
the chair. You actually left your house at six o'clock this
morning to drive up to our studio in Newcastle to talk
about being crap in sales. What made you want to do that? I
think it's I obviously, we employ a lot of young people
that are new to sales, and I talk a lot about it on LinkedIn,
but I think it's like, it's good to know that, like, if you're
struggling right now, or especially if you're at a point
in your life where you're like, What am I doing? Like, let's
face it, most people that are in sales fall into sales. They have
a dream outside of sales. They have something else that they
want to pursue. My whole career, up until a few years ago, was,
was music, but sales pays the bills. So I was like, right?
I'll do that nine to five. Sick, it's five o'clock. I'm off. I'm
gonna go and play guitar somewhere. But it's like, it's
knowing that like other.
Jack Frimston: People have walked that it's okay to feel a
little bit lost in the sales world, and actually, if it is
something that you get better at, like, everybody works in
sales, like even if you don't work in sales, being a better
listener, being a better communicator, asking better
questions, having a stronger mindset, you're going to be
better in whatever walk of life you go into. You're going to be
a better parent, you're going to be a better partner, a better
friend, all of those things. So even if you work in sales now
and you're just thinking, like, I'm a bit lost, like I wanted to
come on and like, I respect what you guys do, but come and people
are listening to this go, oh god, yeah, I felt like where you
were six years ago. It might be alright. You might end up
wearing all black in Newcastle at nine in the morning.
mark ackers: So let's talk about what you just said. And so much
of that resonated, and I've spoke about that before as well.
Like, if you can pick up those sales skills and fine tune them,
you can have better conversations with everybody.
But let's talk about what you said about falling into sales so
your first sales job, you've put yourself as 1617,
Jack Frimston: appointment booking. Tell me how you got
that first job, and if it was a conscious choice to take a sales
job, it it was so it's so funny, because obviously what I do now
is appointment booking, and my first ever sales job was doing
the exact same, different kind of different thing, but like,
it's funny how it's come full circle 16 years later. I it was
year 10, so I was 1516, years old, and my best friend ramen.
He was doing work experience where he didn't get paid. Two
weeks, I went to a primary school. I was like, maybe I'll
be a teacher. I don't know what I want to do. So I went to a
primary school. He went to he found a publishing company that
was in our hometown of lithium, and he turned up, and it wasn't
a publishing company, it was a call center selling advertising
space. So he did that for two weeks, and he was good, like on
the phones, like he was as good as a 16 year old can be cold
calling. And he said, I've got this like thing. They've said,
Do you want to stay on for the summer? Another friend went and
joined, and then they said, Well, do you want they went, who
else do you know? And I was knocking about with him, and he
was like, why don't you just come in and do this? And I
turned up, and I remember, like, the first day they give you a
piece of paper. We're talking 2007
sometime like the the computers, like at the Internet wasn't
massive. There was a yellow pages for Wolverhampton. They
were like, right? You're booking meetings in Wolverhampton. Start
at the front or the back. There's your script. Good luck
going gone book some appointments for Ben Jones,
who's like out in Wolverhampton and he wants to go and sell some
advertising space.
Wow. So was you getting paid for that job? Yeah, I think looking
back, it worked out was on about two pound an hour
commission. There was commission. So, so I didn't earn
any commission the first year, and I think the back end of the
second year, I one deal close for like a grand, and I got like
5% of something. But I was really good at booking
appointment, but you know, you were the top Booker. I was the
top Booker, but nothing ever closed, nothing ever closed,
except maybe one deal, apart from one at the back end. Maybe,
maybe that's like a self serving memory that I've added in there
to make me not feel as bad as about being crap at sales. But
the first day, everyone was, like, buzzing about me. They
were like, you're going to be so good, you're going to be so
good. But, like, I thought rapport was the way forward. If
you can be their friend, they're going to, like, buy from you.
And I used to say things like, oh, we'll just come down and
we'll have a couple, we'll bring some jammy Dodgers, and we'll
just turn up. Like, it was very, like, pushy, needy, no. Problem
wasn't solving anything. It was just like, let's just come down
and like, oh, Ben's a lovely lad. He just wants to meet you.
It was very much. And people would turn up and they'd be
like, the decision makers aren't here. I'm just the tea lady.
Well, she probably need the jammy Dodgers. Yeah, exactly.
They never took jammy Dodgers. I always got in trouble
for that. So what made you the top Booker? Then if you say you
were crap, what made you the top Booker, because I was booking
appointments with people that weren't decision makers, right?
I was, I was just shoving anything through. I'd ring you
and you go, like, yeah, maybe like, send me an email. Cool,
Tuesday at three, yeah, or whatever. Your counterfeit. No.
Okay, counterfeit, yes, it is right. Just take that and I'd be
like, sick, another one. Obviously, nothing was recorded.
What I said happened on the phone was like, and I go away,
and I Oh, they've got this massive budget for a perimeter
board, and I'd paint a picture, right? So top Booker may be the
wrong metric to be measuring, but the one that makes you look
the best. Yeah, exactly right. Okay. And then you had a uni job
selling Ivas. So again, cold calling, but this time the
public asking their sort of, you know, 10,000 pounds in debt, was
that a smile and dial job, or was there a strategy there that
that was, here's, I don't even know how they got away with it,
but they were like, here's members of the random public.
There's no intent. Ring people up and say, I'm calling from.
IVA company, do you have 10 grand worth of debt? And it was
probably one of the lowest points of my life, like you.
Just imagine calling someone up and saying, are you in debt? If
you're not in debt, you're going to be pissed off. If you are in
debt, you're probably going to be pissed off. So was it the
lowest point, one of the lowest points in your life or your
career? Because that's different.
I just remember, like, it was while I was at university this
summer as well. And like, obviously, like, I was going out
and I was still partying and waking up hungover, and I think
the hours were something like 10 to eight, and just like,
strolling into this office, and like, all the management were
thick, everybody was an idiot. And then I've just got to, like,
call people and be like, do you have debt? And like that. That
was, like, the I think it was like, not a low point, but it
was like, so demotivating, because, like, yeah. And then
when, when people like, yeah, you're hearing stories, and
you're like, Oh, your your life sounds really bad. And now I've
just like, I'm not even selling to you. I'm just a therapist,
and actually, you don't even qualify for an iba. And they're
like, Yeah, I've got loads of debt. I've spent it all on. Do
you know I mean, TVs from bright side or whatever?
mark ackers: So
Jack Frimston: I can see why that would be difficult. I
suppose I'm trying to ascertain why you took that home. Do you
know what I mean that that those back. Like, I'm thinking of you
at university, partying, you're studying, you know, you're going
to go on to better things. Yeah, it's obviously a difficult job
at the time, but surely, clock in, clock out, leave your
problems there. But it sounds like you maybe had those
problems linger a little bit longer, yeah? Like, I definitely
like, let that like, resonate, like it like, you know, like,
when you look back at jobs, you don't remember like, the days or
like the thing, you just remember the feeling, yeah, and
I look back at that, and like, luckily, I was working with a
friend at the time, but then, like, I remember them being off
for like, a week or two, and like, you're surrounded by,
like, I was like 20 Surrounded by like, 50 year old men that
were all out in the evenings doing Class A drugs. And you're
like, what this was in Carlisle? Not nothing bad against
Carlisle, but, like, it just wasn't a fun place to be. It was
a very dingy, dark call center where you just, like doing the
same thing, and it's like you're not allowed to even, like, go
for a toilet break or whatever. Like, it's just very much like,
back on the phones, come on dial. You need to hit your KPIs,
you need to do 100 you need to just like, oh, I need the money.
Yeah, Carlisle, good night out. It was a good night out. Was
also is, I've not had a night out in Carlisle in about a
decade, right? So who knows? Now, I'm sure 2024, it's banging
what? What did you learn from those two jobs at appointment
setting and cold call in the
public? I think anybody that cold calls, because I did it
from such a young age, like 16 to 17, and then you going on to
like 20 like, it just becomes a bit of the norm. Whereas I
think, like, when you're like, when you do it, when you're
older, it doesn't feel like, like, I always talk about, like,
the fear of rejection. I'm like, I've done it. I've had, like,
when, when we call for wham. Now, like, it's very rare. Like,
I can't remember the last time someone was like, really awful
to me. Like, like, it because it doesn't happen. Like, you get
the odd person that's a bit shirty, but like, they're not,
like, awful, awful. Whereas back then, like, I probably blocked
out all the memories. I can't remember the specifics of it,
but people were like, because they're members of the public as
well, you shouldn't be calling it like, shouting at you. And
then you just, like, It startled you. And like, you're a young
man, and you're like, oh, is this what happens as you get
older? People like torture. You like this. Obviously, calling
the public and calling businesses are different, but,
but equally, you'd have got much but, like you are well known now
for cold calling you. Lot of people look up to you and follow
your content and calling cold calling. So is there an element
of though, when you're calling today, the reason people are
more receptive, it's just simply because you're better at it.
Like, can you think back to what your calls may have sounded like
then versus now? Yeah, it would have been all me. How do I how
do I get everything about our proposition over to them?
Because, like, you don't under until that, that phrase of like,
people don't care about you, your problem, your website, what
your solution, whatever like, until I knew that it was very
much like, how are they going to know that we're like an award
winning business? How do they know that we've saved millions,
1000s in Ivas? They're not going to know that, whereas they don't
care. So how do I make it so I was running in there, yapping at
people, and then all of a sudden you're a bit like people like,
I'm bored of this that some mockney guys just cold called
me, and I don't want to talk to him. I've never done this, you
know, I've sat down with reps one to ones about 10 years. And
so say you've got someone that isn't hitting their number, I
would always be like, so how come is not hitting your number?
What you've been doing this? Look.
mark ackers: Activity. And like, Steve was like, No, I'd do a
discovery call on them, how much you think that's cost you in
commission. And he was like, why the fuck have I never thought to
do that? And he's like, No, I'd say to them, so you've not hit
your number. How long you not being hit your number for?
What's the reason for that? How long is that? How much reckon
that's cost you in commission? Talk to me about your long term
goals. How much further away are you? Yeah, big gap. I just feel
like that's so fucking obvious. I've never put a rep and a one
to one for a pain funnel against their own goals. I like that
really obviously, yeah, I'm gonna use that. So how did you
make that switch? Then? Like, from having the calls all about
they need to hear about our award winning services. They
need to hear about how good we are to it's not about me, it's
about them. How did you learn to make that switch
Jack Frimston: to that? That switch didn't happen until
probably, like, eight, nine years later. Like, I think I got
more awareness. But like, I think what, what happened is, as
I progressed through my sales jobs, and I've had like, various
different sales jobs, they give you like the bit, and then they
give you like you get better training. So when I worked at,
mark ackers: sorry, sorry, we can keep rolling. So when I
worked@read.co.uk
Jack Frimston: they like, gave me Sandler Training. So Sandler
Training was, like, really understanding, like the pain,
but I still didn't, like get it, but I knew the questions to ask.
I knew the the path to go down, like when I was working, like
commercial insurance, the first thing that you had to ask was,
what? What are their needs? Right? Which makes sense. So I
was asking the questions, but then it's like, it's only been
later on in life that I've really understood the
psychology. And I think it's like, you can train somebody to
have the here are the here are the things to do. But if
somebody doesn't understand why they're doing it, they can,
like, learn the move that they can't, like, win the fight, if
that make sense? Yeah. So just help do some maths for me here.
How long you been in sales? About 16 years. 16 years, and
you just said there you didn't make that switch for eight or
nine years. You were already, like, a year into your career,
so to speak. Yeah. So really, what we're saying here is the
first 10 of your 16 years, you weren't doing the right thing.
1,000,000% is that it's the same year, 10 times over. So so let's
think so I moved to London in when I was 21 and then I moved
out of London for when I was like 27 so that's six years.
Within those six years, I had four jobs, four different sales
jobs that I wasn't very good at, and I probably got better at,
but definitely by the point I was in the last job, I was
better. But thinking from me now to me then,
I sometimes wish that me now could go back and do those like
cruddy sales jobs. So I'm like, I would have done it so much
differently. I would have been so much better. And also
thinking about like mindset, like sales, for me, is an
umbrella of two things, communication and mindset. So
the communication wasn't there. I was still Dell boy. But as the
years progressed, maybe a watered down version, still
trying to build rapport. Somebody on the other end of the
phone says, Yeah, I'm doing this because I've got three kids. Oh,
I've got three kids. And it was like, all fake, like, sunshiny
rapport, the stuff that I now take the mickey out of on
LinkedIn. But it was only like later on where I, like, really
started to, like, understand and become, like, a good seller. But
the mindset wasn't there either. I was like, I was like, I wasn't
when you think about what a high performer is no way, nowhere
near I wasn't putting the reps in outside of work. It was very
much nine to five, turn up, do the bit. Don't think about it.
Was what I learned in, like, the last three, four years, if you
like, it doesn't take a lot. So, like, if you put a few hours in
before work, like, you commute. You put that commute time in,
you start listening to podcasts, you start, like, researching.
You put the recipe in while you're in work, and then you put
a bit of work outside of work. It doesn't take long until,
like, you kind of like, overtake other people that aren't putting
the work in. Like, to be in the top 5% of sellers, you gotta
think that 95% of people probably aren't doing anything.
They've just got the experience. They're complacent. They're
doing the same thing they've always done. Versus, like, if
you put in a little bit of effort, the same with anything
like, you think about human beings, like, hardly anybody can
speak languages, but like, if you, if you put in a little bit
of effort, then you'll probably speak, you'll be in the top 5%
of bilingual human beings. Maybe don't check the maths on that
one. You get the point. Can we just get a fact check? Yeah,
please, yeah. Um, so here's, here's what's really
interesting. You said you wished if you now could go back.
Effectively, what you're saying is, when you started off in
those jobs, if you had access to someone that had already done it
and walked the path that you.
mark ackers: Want to walk, you'd have done things differently.
That Jack would have existed, right? You would have been able
to find and work with someone that already done that. If you
could go back to that, that person effectively give you,
when you're sort of starting out in sales, access to someone
that's walked the path that you're about to walk, had
success in those roles that it would have fundamentally changed
what you did and the results that you had obviously, like
those people exist like right now. You're on a path. What,
what do you think the impact would have been if you could
have worked with a coach at that early age that could have helped
Jack Frimston: you. I think the majority of sales jobs are,
here's your product knowledge, get in and, like, start selling.
There's like, they say training, but there's actually not sales
training. I think what, what I definitely would have needed is
someone to, like, unlock my motivation. Okay, so my
motivation was all about everything that was happening
outside of work. Now, I've always had the mindset of, while
what, even if I like, I'm not pursuing a career in insurance,
right? I'm there, my mindset and my work ethic was always, while
I'm here, I'm going to work as hard as I can, I'm going to put
I'm going to put 100% in anyway. But like, I wasn't trying to get
better. It was more like, you're like, being busy isn't
necessarily being productive. Like, working hard isn't like,
necessarily working smart. So I think I needed somebody to
maybe, like, show me the way of like, okay, let's, let's sit
down with you. What are you trying to do? What are you
trying to, like, unlock what I'm trying to do this outside, and
I'm trying to get to this. Okay? And what from within, from
within work and your career, what? What would that? How can
we get you there by doing this? Do you know, I mean, so if it's
like a well, if I had more money, I'd be able to do this,
this and this, I think it's like unpicking those different
motivation points, and that's kind of what I lacked. And I
think it's so Hindsight is beautiful. And like, like, I'm
grateful for where I'm at now, but like, you just kind of wish
somebody had, like, switched on the lights and be like, just so
you know you're doing this wrong, X, Y and Zed, if you just
make a few tweaks, it's not even, like, massive tweaks, but
a few tweaks. Then Then you move completely in a different
direction. How much that was down to you, though, not being
unless, you know, remember, you were sort of 20 at the time,
ish, maybe a bit younger, maybe a bit older. But how much is
down to you just weren't mature enough at that point to realize
that, or that is a reflection of the environment that you're in.
You know, the way you've described those jobs sound like,
you know, little grubby offices where that's not going to be
there to inspire and motivate you. So how much of that is down
to you as an individual, not being open minded, mature,
whatever you want to call it, versus using the wrong place?
I think, yeah, 1 million. I think a lot of them, not, not
all of the jobs that I worked in, but a lot of them were like,
the wrong place that don't inspire, they don't motivate
you. And I think, like, that's like a lot of salespeople, like,
especially when we think about like, SDRs, AES, a lot of them
are like, 20 to 30. And within 20 to 30 there's that question
mark of, like, what is my life? What am I doing? Where am I
going to be? I'm probably like, 2526 I'm like, this isn't the
path I thought I'd be on. I'm just working like a crawly sales
job. What's the point? Whereas it's like, you can twist that
completely and you can be like, imagine if I got really good at
this, imagine what person I could be. Imagine how it would
change my life. And like, now, I mean, I'm lucky to be in that
position where I'm like, I'm so grateful for all of that. But
the time you just, you don't realize, and obviously you you
then find yourself now in a position where you can make that
change. We'll come to what you're doing now later. I found
it really interesting. We don't need to do anything else, but
you move to London then. And you had a two hour commute. Why
don't you just move close to your job, or get a job closer to
where you are? London's massive London is massive, and a 21 year
old is stupid. That's all I can say. But like so, and the
annoying thing was, it was, like, it was actually quite
close in, like, location wise. But what I had to do is I had to
get the tube from where I lived into the city center, and then I
had to get another tube back out to the city center. So it was
like, like, out of there and then end up there. So it was
like, 12 commute every single day, starting work at nine
o'clock. You're leaving at seven. You're getting home at
seven. It was like, those are the jobs I talked about, the IVA
place, this one as well. I was only there for five months, but
that makes my belly like, it gives me that, like, feeling
like, oh, did I really do that? And then I got a little bit
smart and went, Oh, imagine if I didn't have a job here and I
could just.
Do an hour commute in London like everybody else. Yeah, and
then that's Reed, isn't it? That's where you went next,
yeah, I went to read next. So, like, I interviewed for two
companies. I got a job offer@read.co.uk
and I got offered a job in recruitment. The recruitment job
paid two grand more. So the recruitment job was 22 and Reid
was 20k and I was like, I'm going to take the recruitment
job for 2k more. And my family were like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
slow down. Slow down. Cab where they were like, right? This is
like, a little unknown recruitment job, like, the
commute still a little bit far. They're like, this is Reed,
massive company office in Covent Garden. Look at what they do for
all their staff on a monthly basis. Like, just, just don't be
hasty, just for a couple of grand more. And I was like, I
was still young. I was like, Yeah, whatever. Then I'll take
that one best decision, the recruitment job I probably would
have lasted three months, and I would have hated it. Reed was
one, one of the best places to work. Like, I still have very
fond memories of them. And they were a company that did give a
shit about their people and did care about getting them better
at sales. Was I self aware enough to take it all on board?
Probably not, and I thought that I knew better, but I think
that's ego of a 22 year old. And you were really honest with me
when we sort of spoke about Reid before off camera, you said that
you got promoted too quickly. And the only person in Reid,
don't mean to laugh, but the only person in Reed history to
get demoted, demoted. What the hell happened there? I was
very confident. Went in and, like, I think, like, like most,
they probably hired loads and loads of young people. And I
saw, like, every month there was a new influx. And, like, I was
on the phone, I was doing really, really well. And they
were like, this kid is good. This kid's doing something. And
I was like, I was selling low of value stuff, 300 400 pound.
Like, imagine if we put him on the three, 4k stuff. Like, he's
really good. So he's like, move desk. I moved so that was there,
and then I moved two desks to the higher value, and I've only
been there a few months. And I was like, Hey guys, yeah, like,
all confident. And then I think a month in, nothing could
happen. They were like, I think we've been too hasty. We're
gonna move you back down. And like, I was like, I'm the only
person in history to be demotivated,
mark ackers: demoted and demoted, demoted and
demotivated. That's the one. Yeah. How did you deal with
that? Because there is that. Oh, sorry, guys. Let me just pick up
my pen and pencil and phone and move to two decks down, or
whatever it was like, how, how did you not let that beat you?
And where you think I just need to leave, because I can imagine
making that move, and everyone's seeing it as well.
Must be like, you say, demotivating, but how did you
cope with her?
Jack Frimston: You know what? I think it was one of those, like,
I just took it on the chin. Like, like, I really like, and
that's kind of been, like a bit of a mindset thing through life,
like it'll be what it is. I was, like, Cole, what? What's in my
control at this point? Probably subconsciously more so. But
like, Colt, have been demoted. Let's have a laugh about it.
Everyone's gonna take the piss anyway, so I might as well join
in, and then, just like, focus on getting good, back where I
was, and then I was only, I was only there for another year, and
then classic, young salesperson, I moved to another company with
bigger dreams and hopes of bigger commission, and that
didn't come to fruition well before that. This is, we don't
need again to dwell on this, but I need to hear more. This was
the boy band phase, the boy band phase. So at this point, had you
decided sales was the career for you, but you need to go and do
this? Or were you still unsure if you went to be in sales long
term? I knew that I was, well, I say, I knew that I was never
going to be in sales full time. I was like, sales is a stop gap,
1,000,000%
32 year old, sat here now sales full time. I'm going to be doing
sales for the rest of my life now. Like I know that at the
time, was like, it's a stopgap. I was like, I'm in a boy band. I
say boy band. We thought we were a cool indie band. We weren't.
And I thought, like, this boy band is going to take off. We're
going to be the next big thing. Move over. JLS, we're in town.
We're taking over. I was like, just do this until it takes on,
like we were so confident that it was going to happen. I was
like, I'll just, I'll just keep doing this until we get there
again. Though, is that not a reflection of the reason why you
probably didn't have the the mindset to be successful in
sales, then, yeah, 1,000,000% like, I remember, like, being on
the phone, but then I'm like, my head is somewhere else. I'm
like, dreaming about, oh, what would it be like to play the oh
two arena whereas I'm mid conversation, how can you
communicate effectively and be a good listener and ask thought
folking questions if you're not even in the.
Conversation, if you're just going through the motions, it's
like, I say to my team, like, you can't just, you can't. Like,
we all do it. We all fall into autopilot. But like, you can't,
like, if you really want to be present, you have to be there in
that moment. And like, genuinely care about what you're listening
to, genuinely care about those problems that you're listening
to, and think, How can I ask a good question next? Whereas, if
you're like, right, okay, oh, what? Sorry, you said that.
Right. What's next to my script? Cole, I was just thinking about
another song that I could write like it's I wasn't present at my
head was elsewhere. So again, totally understand exactly what
you're saying. And if you've got bigger dreams, you've got to
pursue them. And you did that, the boy band phase, as you
called it. That's not my, my words there, but what was the
name of the band? Oh, the tailor made. The tailor made is in,
like, a tailor made suit, yeah, not like golf, but like, like
the tailor made suit. So that was a band. The tailor made, the
tailor made, um, kind of music, indie, kind of a bit scouting
for girls. I love scouting for, like, if you asked me, were you
good, I'd say, No, did we do all right, yeah, we got lucky. We
won some decent competitions. We went on tour. We, like, we were,
like, went on tour like Tom Jones, the beach, woods. I like,
got to, sorry, Tom Jones is in, like, the Welsh Tom Jones.
Like, the Tom Jones, yeah. Like, we got to a point where, like,
we were playing to people of like, 15,000 like, like, I don't
want to clang. It feels all like, oh, icky. But like, seal
told me that you've literally called it a boy band phase,
yeah, but it's a podcast about sales, isn't it? It's not about,
like, the The LJ, literally, you've got boy band phase. I'm
here, in here Tom Jones and 15,000 people. We, we did all
right, like, we, we did quite a lot bigger. So our, our manager
that signed us, he was part of, like, Live Nation, so, like, he
put us on all the tours. So we, like did George Ezra, we went on
tour with madness, which was wicked,
mark ackers: of just clanging them all, all over the stage.
Can we pick these names
Jack Frimston: that we'll stop there? No, I want to hear more.
You'll like this one. We were crowned the best buskers in
London by Boris Johnson,
this is a, this is a wine. I've heard it. I swear down. What are
you doing in sales? Why? No, because so then, like, one day,
up until I was, like, working in my sales job, at the time, I was
like, 26 you want Spotify, yeah. But we're not, we aren't Mark
hackers. We are not gonna play I think we need to play a bit now.
We're not gonna play the
mark ackers: This is awful. Where's this gun? Sorry, right.
I've got all your songs here.
The tailor made. It's official. Got that little blue tick as
well. So what's the best song? None of them are good. Oh,
what's the best one, though,
I don't know. Well, living, living, loving, no, no, that's
rum and Red Bull. That sounds horrible. Rum and Red Bull. Take
me No, that's bad. Mr. Perfect. Really bad. So about you? Yeah,
spinning around that's awful, right? Come on, pick a song, or
I'm gonna pick one. Cougar in the corner. Cougar in the
corner. Why can I not fight? Ah, got it.
Jack Frimston: Oh, wow, is this stuff. Hang on, skip.
mark ackers: Mate, that's I'm gonna give this a Yeah.
Jack Frimston: How do I like follow? There we are. I don't
think I follow anyone's spark. I promise you, there's no new
music coming anytime soon. So why? Why didn't that work out
then? So I was so I was working in an insurance company selling
insurance, and the majority of people that worked there were
young artsy professionals, like singers, dancers. 10 people got
hired every month. Nine people got sacked every month. So, like
one would ask, so
all three of the lads in the boy band started the job. One of the
lads got sacked for hanging up on people. One of the lads got
moved to recruitment. And three years in, I was the only one
that survived in sales. But we would do, we were just doing
that, and then we, like, we'd say, right, we need a week off.
We're going on tour. We're doing this, we're doing that. And we
got a call one day, and we got a call, and it was our agent, it
was our manager and our tour promoter, and they just said,
You've not sold enough ticket. I think, like, we'd sold 100 in
London, 50 in Manchester, and eight in Carlisle.
We knew no one in car. So that was, no, it's uni there? Yeah,
no, but no one was Carlisle's very own. No one stays in
Carlisle. So they pulled the tour. The tour got pulled. And
then we were just like, What do you want to do now? And I was
like, lads, I'm done. I'm so over this. I was like, I want to
go traveling. I want to enjoy myself.
Of and that's how I ended up on the cruise ships, right? So it
kind of progresses. So it was like, sales, sales, sales, doing
music, trying to make a dream of that. That didn't work out. But
I think it's like, it's an important lesson as well. Like,
I'm big on, like, chasing your dreams, but it's also important
to know when to say that's not my dream anymore. Like, I would
have it would have really, like, I mean, I wouldn't have known,
because I would have been doing it. But to be, like, 32 like,
still, like living at my auntie's house, like trying to
make it in a boy band, I think it's like, there's points where
your priorities change and you're, like, your fundamentals.
It's like, what do I like everything I do now with the
business and, like, the kind of the mission I'm on now, I get
fulfilled in like, it's the same feeling as, like, performing to
a crowd, if that makes sense, like you're chasing the same
kind of endorphin rush of like, when you close a big deal, or
like you have a great client succeed and things like that.
Look, I love sales, right? Really passionate about it. I
don't feel like I ever compared it to, like, sitting backstage
with Tom Jones and 15,000 people singing my songs. But okay,
whatever, whatever sort of helps you there. Um, so yeah, it felt
like when I was going through sort of your background, sort of
preparing for the podcast, I felt like this was the point
where I was like, it feels like I lost his way here, right? We
went from, and you literally called it a boy band phase. I've
never felt so lied to, but you literally said, like, I had all
these sales jobs boy band phase. Then it was, it was like, like,
you say, cruise ships, Amazon, warehouse. It felt like you lost
your way. And I was kind of wondering, why weren't you in
sales at that point? Yeah, so, like, I just the the music had
ended, and I was young enough to say, I just want to, like, get
away. I want to start again, do something. What can I do? I
thought, well, you can have a roof over your head, go, go
traveling, work on cruise ship. So I did that for a couple of
years, and, like, and I enjoyed it, and it was great. And I
think, like, the communication skills that I had definitely
helped me, like, on the first cruise ship, I was, like a bingo
host. The second cruise ship, I was in, like a rock band
performing on the stage. And then, like, pandemic hit. And
like, I was 28 and I'm at like, a real What do you do with your
life? And then I went back to England, like during the
pandemic. And then I was like, well, I need some pocket money.
I'm gonna start working in Amazon. And then I was like, I
need to do something. My mate was like, I've got a spare room
in Manchester. Why don't you move to Manchester and just get
a sales job? I was like, sound like, I know them, like, bread
and butter. I'm always gonna get a sales job, I just feel like, I
don't know if you've been there, but like, I could just, you can
always find something, and you're like, I'll always have
enough money, because it's what I know my CV is, all right, even
I've got the scattiest CV, like, I don't think, I don't think I'd
hire me if I, if I interviewed for my job, like a job at my
company. Now, I think I'd look at my CV and go, This person is
too scary. I don't know, like it's, it's, fills me with fear
all the things. But I landed another sales job, and that was
the point where it was like, This is it? There's no There's
no boy band to fall back on. There's no cruise ship. I'm not
going back there. What happens now? So I'm like, 28 I was like,
What is this path? Like, I'm approaching 30. You think, like,
this is a point where I should have my shit figured out. I
don't have anything figured out. I don't know what I'm doing. And
I was like, this is like the time to make change. I started
thinking, and the change didn't come from, I'm going to get good
at sales. The change started coming from, like, self
development of, like, I'm reading the business books, you
know, like, all, like, the the David Goggin stuff, the Jesse,
it's that that was the stuff. And I was like, right? What if I
run a marathon? That would be good for your mindset, right?
Okay, I did that. And then, like, I stayed in a monastery
and, like, I started, like, learning about like, mindset and
all of those things. And then Zach, who's been my best friend
of 1617, years, we went to high school together, he was like,
I'm in the same point. He was like, I've been doing this sales
job my company had just like, don't respect me. I've got a
baby on the way. He was like, he texted me. Was like, I've had a
brainwave. I was like, what? It's like, I'm gonna start my
own business. And then that's where the cogs of like, I'm at a
point in my life where I don't know what I'm doing, I don't
really know where I should go. He's on the same and he's like,
I'm gonna make a leap. I'm going to do something. And I was like,
we were having conversations on a regular basis. And I was like,
there's enough room on that piece of wood for two. He was
like, Why didn't join me? And then that's when the next
chapter of life, I guess, after the cruise ship and the
pandemics, starts when you say that piece.
Would Are you referring to Jack and Rose? I was glad that you
picked up on the Titanic. Well, just cruise ships, Titanic.
Yeah. So before we open up that next chapter, obviously, that's
going to be a really interesting part of this podcast. Let's have
some funny stories, right? You've obviously worked at a
number of different sort of whether you want to use word
dodgy or not, jobs. And what is the when you look back in now,
the funniest thing, or funny story from selling that springs
to mind the first company when I first moved to London, like I
remember interviewing, and like, I'm not, I'm not saying like I
was good at sales. I was crap at sailed, but I was switched on.
And I think, like, it was a little area in edgeware, which
is, like a shithole in London on the corner. Anyone watching this
in edgeware? Sorry, but like, I think I interviewed, and, like,
I was, like, around people that were also interviewing. I was
like, I'm a bit different here. Like, I'm a bit more, like,
switched on, everyone felt a bit slower. And I think, like, the
the Manage, the managers, I think they couldn't believe
their luck. They were like, how was this guy? Like, got, got
this, like, how's he ended up here? And, like, they they left.
They said, Jack, can you stay behind? They were like, We want
you. We want to offer you a job on the spot right now. Will you
take it? I was like, Yeah, all right, first interview in
London. Like, I just arrived, bags packed ready to be in a boy
band. And they were like, we'll give you a job. You can start
tomorrow. I was like, Cool, I need a job. And it was
something. The wage was awful. It might be like, 16 grand a
year, and I was spending half of that on the big commute. So that
was going on, and that was selling insurance for sky. Now,
I don't know if you realize, but if you've got sky and you box
breaks, like, you just ring sky and they'll look after it, but,
but they had all these people's details, and we were like,
ringing them up. And it was, it was a dodgy, manipulating
company, and they were like, ringing old people. And I was
like, I don't feel like ethical doing this like you need to
ensure you Sky remote. It's the same price as a domino as a
month like selling that one of the guys, the manager, like we
all, got called into a board, boardroom meeting, and I'd roped
in the other two lads from the boy band at this time. So where
I went, they followed. And they were like, someone's been
stealing bank details. I was like, What's up me? I'm looking
at my lads and like, not them. And then they called the manager
out. And they were like, right, he's gone right moving forward.
They were like, Jack, can you stay behind? I paid about two
three months. They were like, You're, uh, you're the new
manager, assistant manager to another guy, Assistant to the
manager, yeah, like, 21
I was like, Oh, I'm now the sales manager. Like, what is
this going to turn to a funny story, because this is so far,
like, I'm bit depressed. Well, no, it's like, I don't think,
like, yeah, it's like, depressing. But also, like, I
became the assistant sales manager, and then two weeks
later I got sucked.
So that's probably the, okay, there's the punchline. So what
happened? Why did you get sacked? Somebody turned up for a
job interview. All the the owners of the company were on
lunch, and I was like, I'm the assistant manager. I'll just do
it. And then they were like, you shouldn't have, like, gone above
your pay grade. I was like, Yeah, but I'm the assistant
manager. You guys said that I was and they were like, yeah,
you've gone above your pay grade. You sucked. I was like,
right, Cole. And then I went and found read.co.uk, the UK is
number one job site. Thankfully,
you're the coin for that. Yeah, every time I say it so funny.
No, but like dodgy and just like how things happen. But what I
find funny is, as a sales manager, the first thing I did
was go to Google Images, type in motivational posters, print them
all off on crappy eight, four, and stick all these things up on
the wall that say you can do this. You got this. And I think
back, and I go, how pathetic. So, okay, there was a punchline
there. What about, like, a funny story of a prospect, maybe the
rudest call you've ever had, or the funniest sort of experience
you've had in sales with a customer prospect.
I remember, I remember cold calling, cold calling, somebody
tell them advertising space, and it was stables, and this woman
was crying down the phone and said, nobody cares about the
horses. Why would you want to advertise? Nobody. Nobody in
like swearing, nobody cares about the horses. And I thought
that was quite a unique take. Surely, some people do care
about the horses. I'm
mark ackers: not getting the funny stories, but I'm getting
stories. Sorry, that's okay. So let's move on. Then you your
colleague, Zach, who, because I come on your podcast, yes,
couple years ago, he says, I'm going to start my own business.
That feels like a pretty precarious time for him to do
that if he's got a baby on the way. I can imagine those
conversations didn't go down too well at home, but you've decided
I'm going to join I'm going to join the business. Talk to us
about that like obviously people who follow you will know about.
But what, what was the big vision here?
Jack Frimston: So Zach was, Zach was working in like, a 360 job
where, like, he was the guy that went in, open the doors, via,
via cold calling, and then he would sit the meetings, and then
he would close the deals, and then he'd pass it on, like,
okay, whatever it is.
He had one month's rent, and his wife was very supportive. She
was like, you you do it. You do you like, because it's one of
those. I think when you go into it with the mentality of this
has got to work like, there's no other when we asked some of our
team, like, Oh, why did you hit commission this month, some of
them were like, I had to. I've got other priorities outside of
work that I need to make sure that I'm hitting so, like, it's
like, one of those that you've got to you've got to do it. So
Zach jumped in, and I think he was ringing a few people, and
they were saying to him, I don't need what you're selling me. But
what I do need is, like, I need someone like you to open the
doors for me. Do you want a job? So every third or fourth call
people saying, like, I need someone like you to like and
obviously we're big into like Sandler and Benjamin dennehys
approach and things like that. And I think, like, he'd been
listening to the to Benjamin Dennehy might win it podcast,
and he was like, one of the things that they said between
them is, if you are working from home during a pandemic and
you're cold calling, you've not got someone leaning over your
shoulder, you should be doing this for yourself. And I think
one of Ben Benjamin dennays first job was appointment setter
from massive marketing company, and that was like, I'm just
going to do that. And like, there was some like, doubt
around it. And then I think on his ninth call, someone was
like, if you can do that for me, then yeah, we'll go. And that
was his first client. And then he got busy, and we were
obviously, we were talking once or twice a week anyway, as mates
do, he's filling me in on his I'm telling him about how crap
this is, but what I'm doing in my life. And he was like, there
is an opportunity here. And then that's where it was like, right?
I'm going to go off. I'm going to start listening. Start
listening to the podcast, I'm going to start reading, I'm
going to, like, really put some time in. And then it got to a
point that I think that was, like, in the summer, and then it
got to the point by the January, I was like, right, I'm all in.
I'm joining, let's go. And this feels like the pivotal moment
where, like, you say it was self development, it was realizing
sales as a skill, one that you can properly learn. Um, just
before, like, you started doing that, did you think at the time
you were good at sales? Yeah, yeah, I thought I was good at
sales, but I was crap at sales. What's the difference there?
Like, How good did you think you were, versus how crap were you
now, when you look back? So let's do it on a scale of one to
10. How good did you think you were? I thought I was a 10. Wow.
So you thought you were brilliant. Then, yeah? And now,
when you look back, probably a three, right? But then if I, if
you asked me to rank myself now, I'd probably say I
was gonna be really a guy. Go, yeah, definitely a 12. No, I'd
probably say a seven or like, like, because I think, like, if
you're self aware enough to know, like, there's always room
to learn. Like, like, do I do things perfectly? No, like,
you're always looking for like, that extra bit like, and I think
like, with self awareness, when it comes it's like, I think
anyone that sits there and says, I'm a tenant sales is somebody
that is probably oblivious to the truth. It's like, there's
always, there's always room to learn and room to improve and
get better. Could I have asked a better question? Could I have
listened more? Could I be more in the present moment? So like,
definitely, like, I'm still learning and like, I'm still on
that, that road to development, and I think fast forward 30
years, I'll still be there anyone that sort of work closely
with me, will know that I have to ask this question. Like I
just when I hear people say seven out of 10, it's just I've
got to ask it. When people say seven out of 10, they normally
mean six or eight. You're saying you're a seven out of 10. What
do you really mean? I reckon seven,
mark ackers: seven. Seven's a number for a reason in it. And
no, but I just feel like that's the casual most people when they
score a film, if it's all right, we give it a seven out of 10.
It's the go to, yeah. I don't think I'd say a six. That means
I'm probably just Yeah. I don't think I'd say a six. But then I
also think, like eight is virgin. It depends if you want,
like, a self aware answer or an ego statistical answer. Well, an
egotistical answer when you said 10 out of 10, yeah, lack of self
awareness seven points. So we're closer to an eight. I mean, you
get 2.5 you round up in maths. Yeah, I didn't listen in math.
So earlier, you're an AR 10. Um, do you believe now in your role?
You are aware of the responsibility you have for the
for the people, in sense of you didn't have that support, you
didn't have that workplace, you didn't have that mentorship you
are now responsible for. Is it 1515, people into like, how do
you take what the environment you've been ensure that you're
not repeating history and you're giving them what you needed? I.
Jack Frimston: So great question. I think I've had a lot
of bad bosses and a lot of twat bosses, and I like to think that
may be corrected like and definitely with people that that
have come and gone throughout the company. Maybe I've not
always been that 100% but, but we're all human, and I think we
can acknowledge that. But I like to think like that it's such a
wanky phrase, but the doors always open. But like,
genuinely, like, we've got, we've got two new two, two new
people that are with us. I sit down with one of them twice a
week for half an hour blocks. Like, it's like that, that
coaching element every morning within the company, like, we'll
do something when it's like refining a skill, or cool,
listening a role play whatever it is, and then throughout the
day, it's just like, I really think it's like keeping on top
of people and being there and then learning different people's
styles. Like, what do you need? Do you need a bit of directness?
Do you need it to be kind of a bit of a sandwich? Do you need
it to be, like, softly, softly. But I think, I think that's
another skill in itself. Is like being a sales manager, and
obviously like starting a company, you've thrown in the
deep end, your your head of sales, your team leader, your
head of it, Head of Marketing, all these different things that
you're learning. And I think we've just been there's a
element of skill. There's also an element of luck. Everything
kind of kind of amalgamates together. Do you think you do
enough today? You know, you've obviously had that period where
that thirst for knowledge and desire to improve. Do you still
have that same passion for self development? You still do
enough? I like to think so, like, like, yeah, like, in the
mornings I'm listening to, I can never remember this, but I'm
listening to, like, an audible book that someone recommended me
about sales. I'm very lucky that we have our own podcast, and the
people that we bring on are, like, typically, sales leaders
or like, like influencers, not influencers, but like legends in
the world of like, communication. So, like, I got
to sit down with Chris Voss a couple of weeks ago for an hour.
I thought that was bullshit. I saw that this is where you you
come undone because you put so much funny stuff on LinkedIn. I
saw a picture of you and Chris Voss, and I thought that was
just some weird post. That's bullshit. There's no way you sat
with Chris Voss for an hour. He charges like 10 grand an hour.
Be a cheeky Northerner. You'll get it for free, right? Let's
see that story. What happened?
Got so, yeah, so I mean, that episode's coming, coming out in
a few weeks, by the time this comes out, that that episode of
us and Chris Voss might come out. But like it was we just, we
had, we had a we started the podcast with one intention, to
get Benjamin Dennehy on the podcast. You've changed that you
because in between the tapes, I've corrected you accordingly.
No, you said that. Hey, rewind it. He's been calling Benjamin
dennahi, and I said to him off camera, I think it's denahi,
because he corrected me, and you've just changed it anyway.
We love you, Benji,
so that was the aim, to get that was the aim. And within three
weeks of starting the podcast, I messaged him on my birthday, and
he was like, You know what? Yeah, cool. And then, and we
formed a relationship with, like, we've done a lot of events
together, and, like, we meet up for lunch when he's around. And
like, I really love the guy, and I can he seems like he's quite
like, a mentor type figure to you, yeah, yeah. Definitely like
it. And he's very wise, very smart. He's like, he's the goat.
We call him the goat like we're the the young bucks, and he's
the goat.
Going off topic now, but we had Chris Voss son on Brandon moss
on your podcast, on our podcast. So how did you get him on? We
cold, I'm gonna admit it cold. Emailed
Unknown: the black swan group, yeah, and they came and they put
him on, and then we released that episode. Then we Whoa, this
is important. This is this is really good. So you identified,
was this all part of the strategy to get Chris not
Jack Frimston: part of the strategy? Because you it's a
hard one. Is it like because you might end up there and you might
be criticized. So Zach reached out to the people that look
after Christopher, and they said he's just turned one down, and
they offered him 50 grand. This is what I mean. He still got the
WhatsApp. And I was just like, alright, we'll never get him.
Well, let's get his son on because his son's like, really,
really cool as well, and he'll have some stories. Then we got
one of the other instructors on sandy Hine, who was amazing, and
then I reached back out to Sandy after the conversation. And
like, I'm getting to sit down with these people for an hour,
an hour and a half, and like, it's, it's a story about, like,
they're teaching me how to label, how to like this is so
we've had loads and loads of people from that world that are
teachers. So I'm learning constantly, and then I'm
editing. I'm listening to again, and then I'm going to listen to
my own other podcasts and stuff like that. So I'm always the
first for knowledge is there. Sandy Hine comes on. Reach back
out, Sandy, thank you. Would you come back? And then she says,
Why don't you get these three on? And then I have that
relationship there with them. Some of the people from the
media team, and we emailed and said, Listen, we want to get go.
Risk on can we make it happen? And he turned up and went,
you've had the whole team. Why my, why am I the last one to be
invited? And I was like, You were definitely invited first.
But yeah. And that is amazing. But we look at the we look at
that from like a prospecting angle. But what we've just done
there is like, whether, whether that was the intention or not
like, but that was like, account based strategy, you know, I
mean, we've got all the influencers and champions who
are fucking amazing in their own right, like they, they
definitely deserve their own episodes and then, and then we
got the decision maker, and we got to sit with Chris Voss for
an hour and have a masterclass, like one on one, me, Zach and
him in a room. You don't get that. So this was, this was your
podcast, though, but did it turn into a masterclass for the two
of you? Yeah, because it's just, this is like that for us. Like
the podcast, like conversations, like you get to learn from
people, and like you ask that,
we ask the questions that, like I'm curious to know. Because I
think if I'm curious to know it, then hopefully the audience is
like, how do you do that? Give me an example of that. What does
that? What are the low stakes games? Like, we, we've got,
we've we've won podcast guests by cold calling them, like, out,
like, out the blue, like, obviously, like, in the same
way. Like, do you know James Sinclair, the entrepreneur. Um,
name rings a belly man. He's, like, he's all over Tiktok and
stuff like that. Oh, he's on Tiktok now, no, he's this multi
million, or, like, multi millionaire, like, entrepreneur,
and I just called him. So I'll be honest, I'm calling you to
invite you on our podcast. It's a bit of a weird one. It's out
the blue, I don't know. That makes you want to hang up or let
me have 30 seconds and run through what why I've called
you,
mark ackers: yeah, gone then, all right, yeah, block me in. So
I think it's like the skills that you've got. How can you use
that in other areas of your life as well? It sounds great. I
definitely cannot wait to watch that podcast with Chris Voss.
Honestly, I remember that when I saw that picture, I was going to
message you, going, how did you do that? And I was expecting you
to go, you idiot, that's a mock up, because I just thought it's
not. There's no way. So that's incredible. What a great story.
So we spoke about, obviously, the fact you're a leader now
you're a manager, different skill set. This happens to
salespeople a lot. They're successful, they get promoted
into a manager role. Appreciate you're not promoted as such.
You've taken the job, but you're now a first time leader, and
obviously have been for a number of years. But how are you
learning and navigating that world?
Jack Frimston: I think the same way that you
it's an interesting one, but it's like leaning on people that
you that you know from like, I've got friends that like lead
companies and manage teams and stuff like that, but also like
other like leadership books and leadership podcasts and stuff
like that. There's so much like knowledge out there, I think,
like, we're so blessed as like, like humanity now that anything
you want. Like, not everything. Like, everything's out there for
free. Like, there, there are people that will kind of, like,
sell you courses for 1000s and 1000s of pounds on how to be a
better leader. But not everything has to be behind a
paywall. Like, if you find the right books, right like, the
right podcast, the right YouTube videos, like, you can find the
the knowledge, the issue. The issue isn't the knowledge is, it
is like putting it into practice and like having the
accountability. Luckily, me, Zach and Ben, my ops director,
we hold ourselves accountable in that sense. So it's like, what
are we doing? What we focusing? What problem are we trying to
solve? And we're leaning on each other. So we're all going away
learning, like, different skill sets, then bringing it back to
the table and be like, I'm going to do x, y and z in this
situation. What would you do? No, that's right. Proceed with
that. No, actually, I deal with it like this. And my ops
director, he comes from he ran teams at vodka revs like and
then he moved into, like, project management. He's got
loads of experience managing people, so there's a lot of
like, on site learning as well from him. Sounds like, obviously
that's a really important trio there. I've met Zach and Ben.
Actually, I remember my last couple of weeks at a Lego I was
like, I'll have a chat with you just before I go.
What's been the most influential book on you and your career?
It's a really good question. Mike, it's a real hard one,
because you think, like my personal life has obviously had
an effect on my career. But if I, if I think about my career
now,
Unknown: I think,
Jack Frimston: as a seller,
Sandler, you can't teach a kid to ride a bike at a seminar.
That's one of the game changer. Also, Chris Voss never split the
difference
like Dale Carnegie.
Very hard to pick one. But like those books about mindset and
communication, they're like the they're
probably the draw.
mark ackers: Others. So I've, I've read two of those. I
haven't read the Sarna one, which is ironic, really, because
I really like Sarna.
So three books there. Who would you say said the biggest
influence on you as a seller?
Jack Frimston: It's probably, I don't know if it's like a
political aunt or a cheesy aunt, but it'd probably have to be
Zach like, from, from like, a standpoint of, obviously, like,
doing, being in the trenches every day, like, like, when,
when the business started, I was in a co working space surrounded
by strangers, cold calling. And, like, cold calling is hard at
the best of times, but like to do it in a room full of
strangers, and everybody's got their Macbooks, and they're all
on Canva making pre, like, little graphic designs, and
you're the schmuck in the corner cold calling people like to be
in the trenches and be like, going back and forth with each
other. I've got this, I've got this scenario. I've got this.
This is what I'm dealing with today. Like, blah, blah, blah.
Like, it's like, I think you learn. I think, I think we
underestimate, like friendship, like we learned so much from our
friends. And I know they say like you become like you become
the five people that you're you're surrounded by the most.
But I think like we forget, like you can learn so much from your
friends. Like it doesn't have to necessarily just be somebody
that's year like, 30 years ahead of you. It could just be
somebody like Zach. Zach had, like, Zach's an amazing seller.
He'd been doing the business for six months, so I was like, six
months behind him in other skill set, probably not like he'd been
doing, like, real hard B to B, door opening for years, but in
that new environment, like, and he was like, one step ahead of
me, and like, helping me along the way, and then, like, working
together to solve various different issues. And it's like
we both, we both bring different things to the table. And I think
that's why it works as a relationship, because one
compliments the other. We're not bringing necessarily the same
skill set. Have you ever told him that I say Phil about him,
I'm gonna text him after this actually let him know. No, I
yeah, I love like, we're quite as especially for like, 2024 I
know, like, without sounding or cheeky, like men don't talk
enough, and like, I'm quite lucky. My friendship group has
always, like, spoke about how they feel and like I like, I'm
very grateful to to Zach, and I've definitely told him that
before. I love that. And you're right. People don't in sales can
feel like very lonely place, but being a sales leader or co
founder can also feel like a very lonely place.
mark ackers: What's been the most valuable advice you've ever
been given from a sales perspective?
Jack Frimston: Like
I think it's what
I think people expect results from the work they haven't put
in. And, like, I look back at my time as, like, an early seller.
I thought I could blag it. I really, really thought I could
blag it, and I tried to blag it, and you get so far, but
eventually the cracks always show. Like, for any, any seller,
like, you've just got to put the work in, and it's not forever.
Like, it really, really isn't forever. I remember Benjamin
Dennehy saying, like, you're not gonna, you won't be prospecting
forever. Like, like, you won't be like when, when the business
started from nine till six every single day, cold calling on a
mobile phone, Google up one after the other. My week doesn't
look like that now, because the business has changed. Like there
wouldn't be enough time to dial, like there's a team to manage,
there's deals to close, there's clients to work on this,
journeys to Newcastle to do exciting stuff like this. So,
like, it changes, but it's like, just imagine, like, imagine,
like, a year where you really, really put the effort in just
one year, every single day without, without fail, you put
the the most amount in, you put 100% in. Your life's going to
change dramatically in one year. But those previous years of
sales were not even like, 50% effort. It was just like
chugging along, hoping that somebody was going to come and
save me, hoping that somebody was like, going to come and pull
me out and say, Oh, it's all right. We'll give you this big,
fancy career. You'll be fine. Doesn't happen like, you've got
to put the work in, and then the rest will follow
mark ackers: a phrase that I really like, and I feel like
you're saying this in a much better way. But to summarize is,
if you're looking for motivation, it's not going to
happen. Action comes first, and then I use this analogy, which
doesn't work when you look at me. Fortunately, the camera's up
here, but it's like going to the gym. The hardest part is going,
but when you're there, you're right when you leave, you never
regret it, but you need to take that action for that motivation.
And it feels like there was a key moment in your career where
you decided, I've got to take action, and that's what's led to
the to the motivation.
Jack Frimston: Yeah, I think it like at six.
Dean, you're allowed to say, Oh, my life's not fair. Oh, this is
happening, that this is happening. Blah shit at 30, get
a grip. Like, like, you can't just be Oh, I never get the
promotions. Oh, nobody ever like, wants me to be the like
it, even if it's not like, your fault, it's your responsibility.
And I think, like once that mindset like shifted in me, and
I realized like, oh shit, life is like, life is so short, like
no one's coming to save me. I might not have that long. I
better do something with this thing. So I was waiting to ask
this question, and I was starting to think we might not
get onto it, this obsession with death.
mark ackers: Is that just your way of standing out on LinkedIn,
or is that a
Jack Frimston: real thing? People say this like, oh, you
built a personal brand about death. It's like, I've not, I've
not invented death. People know that, right? Like, I've covered,
yeah. It's like, it was there before me and it'll be there
after me. But I think it's like, I think there's too much like,
airy fairy hippy shit about like, like mindset and life
like, like, I just think it's like, what's the flip?
Everyone's like when
I, when I spent some time in the monastery, like, I read loads
and loads and loads of books about death and like, I just use
it as, like, a constant reminder I was telling you earlier.
Obviously, like my my watch says, Remember you will die.
I've got a necklace on that says, Remember you'll die, but I
just use it as little motivated, so that if I come off a call and
it's shit, big deal like the fridge broker, I got a call the
other day from my partner, the fridge is broke, and I just All
right, well, we'll just get someone out to fix it. And she
was frustrated about it. And it's like, it's frustrating, but
I'm not going to waste any energy on it, because one day
I'm going to be on my deathbed. Do you think when I look back at
all the traumas in my life, I'm going to be thinking about a
fridge that broke? Like, no, like, so it's like, it's not
saying don't give a shit about anything, because there are
obviously things that are worth, like, caring about, but I think
in the long run, like the and this is why, like, I'm so
passionate about like, do what suits you. Like, do what, what
makes you happy, what makes you content, follow your dreams,
because one day you'll all be dead. And like, none of it
matters. And like, really think about, like, speaking to my mum
about this this morning. It's like, so we've got like, photos
now of like my mom and then her mom, but then you only go back a
few, like, a few generations. You're like, I don't really care
who they are. I don't know who they are. I don't have any
memories attached to them. It's not long before me and you are
going to be long forgotten about. And maybe there'll be a
distant memory, like when, when our names muttered one one more
time to your great, great, great, great grandkids. Or maybe
someone's like, find a podcast from you. And they like, they're
like, Oh, this is brilliant. This is how they used to sell in
the Do you know what I mean, like that, that'd be amazing.
But the chances are, think about how many people have come before
us and we've forgotten about and we move on. It's like life is
just so bloody short. We're all going to be dead soon. Like
people are running around, panicking about stuff that just
doesn't matter. And I think that's what I'm passionate
about. And like, if I can get one other person and have that
ripple effect, like, It's a Wonderful Life is is like that?
If you, if you can get one other person to say, yeah, he's right.
Like, What? What? What books does he read? Right? I'm gonna
go and read. Those are my mindset is different. Well, then
that might have another knock on effect someone else in the
world. And it's, it's, hopefully, it's that kind of you
might not be remembered, but your impact might ripple through
and you, we don't know,
mark ackers: everything you say that resonates with me and have
similar thoughts myself, like I heard a phrase a long time ago,
and it was like, at some point in the future, it'd be the last
time you've ever spoken about, hmm. And I just thought, wow,
you're right. And like, you say, obviously that, but at some
point you will never be spoken about or thought about ever
again.
And then you again. Just the other example that I play
through my mind every November, you know, wear my Poppy. And I
think I wonder when that'll stop. And people always go,
never. And I'm like, I don't think you appreciate deep time.
Like, and I do this exercise people I go, like, give me a
date that's really far in the future. And they go like, Oh,
2050 I'm like, yeah, that's my point. You, you know, you're not
thinking in deep time. I think, and I always say, like, World
War One, World War Two, really important to us, and probably
for the rest of our lives, we'll remember it. But there comes a
point. You know, there was loads of battles and wars before that
that we never think about ever, and it's like it's such an
interesting thing to con i Don't remind myself of it enough, but
I can see why when you really think about, like, non trivial
things, and will you think about that in the future? Really,
really interesting. And I could spend ages of you on that, and I
think I don't have it changed for you, but it changed me when
I become a parent. I No one. No one likes the idea of death, and
it freaks them out. But having children.
Jack Frimston: Shouldn't change my perception of death. I felt
more comfortable with it, which is mad, because I want to be
here longer than ever, because I've got two kids now. But did
that change you at all? Haven't having a child, it's it's so
it's one of the happiest things, like we were talking about this
last week, but like, it's amazing. Having children is,
like the the best thing ever. I absolutely love it with that
comes a deep sadness when you when you say hello to somebody,
eventually you'll have to say goodbye and fingers crossed. In
my lifetime, it's me like, obviously, that there are awful
things that happen that the stoics used to meditate, and
they used to go into the child's room. This is like how crazy
they were 1000s of years ago. But they'd like, sit there, over
the over the baby, and they go, they'd meditate on if the baby
didn't make it to the morning, which is crazy, but, like, it
makes sense just to make the most of that moment, hopefully.
Like, it's me that goes first, and I live to 90 and I get to
see great, great grandkids. Like, it'd be incredible, but
like, one day I'll have to say goodbye, and that is hard, and
that and that comes like, that is grief, isn't it? Like, it's
like you love people, and you get to experience the good
things, and then with that comes the sadness. But that is just,
life is black and white. There are, there are kind of no areas
of it's not black and white. Sorry. Anyway, you know what I'm
trying to say? Yeah, it's amazing, but it's also hard, but
it just it does, like it's the complete opposite of death,
yeah.
So speaking of saying goodbye, we're getting towards the end of
our podcast. Tell us more about wham, the problems you solve and
why people should I mean, we know why we should listen out
for the podcast. Got Chris Voss coming, right? But give it. Give
WAM a little plug to those listening that might not have
heard of wham before. Yeah, so we, we've got two now that. So
you mentioned earlier, like a sales consult and WAM. So like
WAM is we have a meeting, and it does what it says on the tin,
like we get you meetings, like we we focus on top of the
funnel, like so many people want to be sitting down with people
that like fit their ICP and they're like their dream
clients, but they don't have the capacity, they don't have the
knowledge, they have the systems, they don't have, they
don't have the team. They don't have the grind or the hustle to
actually sit down and just say, You know what? I'm going to put
in a full shift. I'm just going to ring people, I'm going to
have conversations. I'm going to build that awareness. I'm going
to find people have the problems, see if they're
motivated, then I'm going to book it in the diary. We do that
for you. We become an extension of your team. We we just book
those meetings in for you. So we work with a variety of different
clients on that side. As as we grew, we have a meeting, we
found that there's capacity for, okay, what happens next? So we
were sitting with people that say, Well, I sit with them, but
my conversion rate's probably not as high as I want it to be.
So maybe that's from like, a training standpoint, or like,
more more more consultancy like, these are your blind spots. This
is like, you've not got you've not got sales, you've not got
any CRM system in place. Of course, that's why you've like,
these are the areas like, it's, it's easy, like, like we were
speaking about earlier, the stuff that we know now we know.
But there are people that are in business that don't necessarily
know the stuff that we know now. So it's like, how do we
implement that, and how do we make change for that?
mark ackers: So yeah, they're the two businesses that we do.
And people can find you on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn talking
about death. And it sounds like you might be on Tiktok.
I think we are on Tiktok. Yeah, we do the odd Tiktok. We're
trying to get more Tiktok. I'm trying to be down with it this
year. So you don't have a personal Tiktok. I do, but
that's my scroll in hand. Understand, we do have a YouTube
channel. Does the tailor made have a Tiktok the tailor made?
No, they were long gone before Tiktok was existed.
Unfortunately, fair enough. Um, Jack, I've, I've loved having
you on the podcast. You've been so transparent, so open. We
We've definitely, I feel like gone through a roller coaster
that we've had, like, some funny moments. We've had some
difficult moments. Got really deep there talk about death,
like, it's definitely been
a great a great interview. As far as I'm concerned, I've
really enjoyed listening to you. I'm grateful for you traveling
up from Manchester. What incredible effort. And can't
wait to hear the podcast with Chris Voss. Thanks so much for
coming on. Thank you.
Unknown: You.