I am.
And this is choosing leadership.
A podcast for high performers, with big dreams at work and life.
This is a podcast for people who know deep inside that there is more.
Have you achieved a great deal of success?
But on the inside, you still feel empty and like an imposter.
Do other people see you as a strong leader?
And you wonder why it still feels so lonely and suffocating.
The aim of this podcast is not to provide you more content, but instead shift
the context under which you operate.
I dare to speak to the tremendous power, which you already have
rather than what you believe.
Are your strengths and limitations.
This podcast is called choosing leadership because that is
what leadership is a choice.
And this is the leadership journey, CDs.
I am interviewing leaders with an interesting story to learn how
they got where they are today.
We all have a lot to learn from each other's stories.
Of Viet.
We started very veer now.
And over successes and struggles on the V.
With this series of interviews, my attempt.
Is to give leaders an opportunity to share their stories and for all of us
to learn from their genders sharing
Christian is a leader in science, technology and business because
of which he was named our top hundred AI global leader.
Recently, he has been a startup founder, professor, a vice president and
executive director at some of the largest international tech companies, successful
startups and leading university.
In the interview, Christian and I speak about our common love for technology and
leadership about computers and people, and about artificial and human intelligence.
We talk about the importance of listening with empathy, understanding the cultural
assumptions that live behind all conversations and the important role of
curiosity when it comes to leadership.
Hi, Christian.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, it is wonderful to have your hair.
Yeah.
So for everybody who is listening I will throw it back to you to just give a brief
summary of who you are and what do you do?
Yeah.
So my name is Christian Goodman.
I'm working with artificial intelligence and I have been
doing so for a very long time.
I'm a vice president and global head of AI and data at a very
large it company in Europe.
Tier two, every I'm also an executive director of the
Northern gateway Institute.
And now like the Karolinska Institute, which is American university.
And yeah, my focus that my passion.
Light's a lot in building a business and innovation and research around
AI building teams building people being a good leader in this space.
Thank you.
I like this intersection of AI technology and.
I think there are some quite a few parallels, but I'm really
interested and keen to learn how you got to where you are today.
If you can share a little bit about your life, if there are any crucible
events, which shaped your life and shaped your views around technology
and leadership, I would love to hear.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think in the early days I was one of those folks that was very early
on, interested in new technology and computers was able to program
them when I was 13 years old.
Started really getting deeply into it was inspired by books by Stan is doubling by
Asimov to start understanding how this technology could potentially unfold.
So I had a great fascination for hard work early on in my.
I realized then also that the best type of intelligence that we can learn from
is our intelligent and that animals that say, how do we work together?
How do we relate to each other?
How do we solve problems?
How do we perceive the world philosophy, ideologies, all these types of topics.
And so psychology became one part of my studies.
And then also of course, AI.
So I think I brought this whole interest into understanding the human condition.
And how we relate, how we, how the world is set up into into this idea of
building an AI, building an intelligent machine , that we can interact with
that, that can understand us to some extent we can understand it.
And that is something that really brought my passion forward.
And I think also it has been.
It has been.
Then I spoke to people also during those early years, which really inspired me.
I remember a psychology professor, Swiss professor.
He was very much forefront on this, in this area.
And he really had a fantastic way of describing how our brain works, how we are
essentially very close to how language, how we think and how language is built up.
And so this is.
This was an inspiring person and also early startups and companies that I
joined, where I could see how good leadership versus not so good leadership
looked like in these early days.
But I think that is a starting point, in, in my interest and passion into this.
Again, I can totally relate to dogs because my journey
has been somewhat similar.
It started with programming and computers and then slowly delve deep
dived into the human side of it.
So I'm very curious to know how you make sense of these two elements, I think which
again, Pretty apart sometimes like the analytical side of it, the rational side
of computers, programming technology, and then the human side, which we are
the rational blame brain plays a part, but there's a huge emotional side to it,
which is which is which sometimes it's difficult to explain by rational thinking.
So I'm looking forward to hearing your views, how you
bring that together in your.
Yeah, no, exactly.
It's a good point.
And I think so let's see.
Did you have the technology part, as you say, that's more analytical,
that's the data, that's the algorithms, it's the technology.
It's the hard things.
Where you really, where data is gathered.
The way, how you decide, you have very frameworks, you have agreements and so
on, and that's one, that's the hard side of the spectrum, which you can discuss.
In order to make the suspicions.
You're not in today's world so much as digital, you're and I talked before the,
this discussion also about how the whole world is changing, everything becomes
digitized and there you have very little gaps, very little, things that are.
Ambiguous, it needs to be pretty straight, although it's still extremely complex.
And as complexity increases, sometimes it also becomes a bit fluffy let's say, but,
and then there's the human side, right?
I think I realized early on my big ambition of seeing big AI projects
turning into something requires you to work very closely together with lots and
lots of other experts with great people.
All sorts of qualities that they can bring to the table.
And of course, each of these individuals have different backgrounds,
different ambitions, different ways of communicating a different view on
the world, which is a great asset.
If you understand where they come from, if you can if you can connect
to those individuals and that's that's a different quality that
you need to bring in as a leader.
Yeah, I would say these are two different topics.
Depends also which organization, which industry you're you would be working
in if you speak on that level, right?
Because you have you have a different structure.
If, for example, I often like to divide between a sales oriented, basically a
sales oriented organization, a company.
Where sales is in the forefront and then engineering and the product
design is what sort of develops.
, what sales really sees in the market, or you have a product.
Product and engineering based organization.
We often the leadership and the CEO is more engineering based.
So then often the engineers come up with a whole bunch of cool things.
And then sales has the burden of bringing into the market.
Sometimes you have a bit of a chasm between the sales and market
folks and the engineering and.
And that's also probably a slide divided between the more harder signs or the
harder approach of data and algorithms and products and also the way how you deal or
how you understand customers and how you understand the market, how you understand
enterprise, which is a much more fluent way of dealing in over Melbourne with
people around it than algorithms industry.
Yeah.
I think that is very relevant to the example of sales and the product and
engineering as different departments.
And I'm wondering how do you bridge this gap?
Because I see that rational thinking in the engineering and product side, but at
the same times sales, and especially when engineers are talking to salespeople,
it's a lot about building trust.
It's a lot about building relationships.
It's a lot.
Slowing down sometimes explaining things, taking what the other purveyor
the other person is coming from.
As you said, what has worked for you to bridge this gap rather
than this becoming a liability?
And just to be you just to understand your question, you mean the gap
that we within a team of, let's say engineers and product people.
Do you mean also the gap between, okay.
You talk about the data on you talk about the products, but you also
have the people that you need to do.
Within that team or do you mean let's say for example, sales and products.
Yeah.
My question was about the first part.
Does the sales and product, how do you bridge that gap?
But I think, yes, as you said, it's also true for within a product organization
because you cannot work alone.
You have to deal with people.
Yeah.
So I think a holistic understanding of the organization that has worked
for me, meaning that having an appreciation and understanding of
the goals and the concerns and the skills and the qualities that each
of these parts of the organizations bring in or parts of the organization.
Obviously, it was just one example of sales marketing versus,
like product and engineering.
Let's say, although it's of course a simplified, picture of this, but
having having holistic understanding, listening understanding where
individuals come from, what they would like to achieve, what are their goals
and So that's definitely a start.
It's a very important start, lay out, how people are thinking know on this issue.
And I think also I had to have many years in which I was able
to learn this skill right.
To understand.
Where this is coming from also to be aware, to develop a consciousness about
what a company is meant to be doing.
And to translate that to the individual in your team or in other teams.
So reality, for example, in today's world realizing that the company.
Primary goal is to really compete in a market to, create value,
to create products that make an income that's happening.
If you work in a capitalistic environment, which most of us do.
And then that means that each of these teams that exist sales, product,
marketing, finance, they all have roles in order to achieve that goal.
So I was also the CEO of a smaller company.
But regardless of how big the company is, your responsibility in
the end of the day is to really make sure you're viable as a business.
And you do what's expected and then try to encourage every team member
to move into the same direction.
So I'm listening and being conscious about the environment and translating it
back to the individual is very important.
And I think also as a leader maybe as a senior manager, it's important
that you, one lesson that I learned is that when you are in this.
We have the responsibility of the people that you are for that
follow you that are in your team.
And you have those that are unit report to and respond to.
It's not just you as a manager, you need to add value in the communication.
So if you get a, if you get a goal that comes from above moving it down
to your team, doesn't just mean you repeat what the leadership says right
over, which the folks say about.
But you need to understand it.
You need to be consciously aware of what it means for your team and
then breaking it down to your team members and then the other way around.
So if, for example, your engineers or your sales team is giving your feedback, giving
your guidance as to what's happening.
That for example, certain frameworks are not working or there's some big
trends happening in the technology varmints, which now, particularly
in AI, All the time, every month, there's new things happening, but I
need to understand it as a leader.
I need to appreciate it.
Often.
I give also my team and then the space to explore that and to translate it back
to, to to the rest of the organization.
So this, these are probably really two, three important aspect, listen carefully
and understand, and then add value to the communication and contextualize it.
The communication is a big part of all this.
Totally.
Thank you for sharing that.
I think listening and understanding are so simple words, but yet
these simple concepts can be so deep when it comes to practice.
Just reminds me of a story of a leader whom I was working with recently.
And they said that when they moved there at any.
From what they was speaking, because that's how we relate communication.
When he moved his attention from what he was speaking to, how his teammates and
his boss was listening to him, it gave him totally new conversations to have, because
then his attention was what is being listened rather than what am I speaking?
And then this allowed this person to tailor his speaking,
depending on what the other person.
Listening to and not keep a one size fits all in, in communication.
And I think that's what you highlighted in the contextual part of it.
So you listen for different context and then tailor your communication because
that's where and I think that's one of my biggest learnings was coming from the
technology world that with computers, I can take my program and put it into any
computer and it will do the same thing.
But when I'm dealing with people Everybody's different.
And it was very frustrating at first, but over time when I learned to tailor
my communication, I think it became a big transformative moment for me.
And it is a sense of control, right?
When I programmed early on a computer, microprocessor allows you to the programs.
They are highly repeatable, right?
You know exactly you have the same functions and you have, that the.
No, the monitor or whatever your problem is meant to be doing.
It's like it has a certain execution.
It will always be that way, obviously with other humans.
That's not the case.
And I think this listening part, if you're lucky, you also understand
the assumptions, the underlying life assumptions of the other individual
that you see that still today, clearly in in the bigger setup where culture,
for example, is a the cultural setup in which individuals or operating,
plays a big role in how people make decisions and how they be.
And by those what I mean by these cultural assumptions, it could be
for example religions or or other types of setups, where individuals
have certain preferences, certain value hierarchies, which make them.
Belief in certain things and act in certain ways.
And that is a, that is very important to have a functioning communication.
This is not easy to find out.
It's not obvious.
Having an awareness of it can help.
And I say this in part, I have maybe part of my introduction or, I've been
living in many parts of the world in many continents and I've been
exposed to probably know every single.
Culture in the world, different countries in Africa and the middle east and in the
in Asia and Australia and south America.
And of course, the still today, maybe in a hundred years time,
we will be so intermingle that things will become much closer.
But today that is still an important aspect to consider, right?
Not everyone starts from the same background and I guess also I'm bringing.
So maybe another aspect from a leadership perspective, at least
my style, which helps me a lot.
It's a good level of curiosity.
So I'm very curious.
I'm genuinely curious in another person, how they think what's the background,
what's the interest, what's the ambition.
How do they want to change the world?
What do they see as being responsible for which role.
In this big theater we call life, do they consider it being being their role, right?
At this point in time, maybe changes tomorrow, but today.
So that's a very important aspect.
Yes.
And I think you'd all city and control.
I think these two things.
And I see these as like poles apart.
I think what people normally see as a lack of control can be anxiety producing
or can be very difficult for people.
But I, I see the opposite of control as curiosity, especially from a
leadership point of view, because yes, we are living in a capitalist
society where we want to control.
We want to predict the future yet.
At the same time, we are living in a world, which is.
Like intermingling global, even most of it with Corona.
And like with the widespread use of virtual communication, you
cannot take things for granted of how others are listening to us.
So I think curiosity from a leadership point of view is a very powerful mood
to live in because it takes care of not just productivity, but also wellbeing.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think also the The individuals that I worked with had some of
those qualities when I'm looking at those leaders and managers and
that I had, I'm seeing a couple of.
Quantities, but I really appreciate, there is, for example, curiosity, the current
company, for example, or a CEO is a curious person, and the nature of the way.
The company lead is along those lines.
Curiosity is a very important aspect.
Another leader, another manager and supervisor that I had years
back influenced me a lot of patience, a lot of empathy.
Someone who lays almost every time I was in a meeting, I was
inspired, like I have some wow.
I couldn't get out of the meeting early enough to start
implementing not what we discussed.
So there was a rigorous exchange, a very smart person had good enough answers
to the questions that I had and team members, Ted and that's worked very well.
It's worth noting though.
I also learned in the same session that there are obviously matches right?
For certain leaders that worked really well for them.
I know people in the same team that absolutely didn't that
didn't work for them at all.
So it depends obviously, but also on that match between the style that you
have and how does it match the team that you have, I think there is no
leadership style that covers all of it.
There will always be some that want to have a more stricter or
authoritarian way of working and maybe that suits us more in small property.
It so it really depends also.
Yeah.
And can you share a more, a little bit more about that person or what they said
or what they did in that meeting or a series of events to found where you see
that balance between managing pressure?
Often results predicting desserts, because as a leader, as leaders, we all
are responsible for producing outcomes in a very real, very measurable,
tangible outcomes yet at the same time, that underground layer between
beneath all of that is the layer of emotions is a layer of human connection.
So can you share what happened in that particular event?
Or is there anything else that you would recommend to leaders.
So as mentioned, probably this is a recommendation, you need to be
aware in which situation you are.
So I wouldn't want to make just a blatant recommendation, all leaders
to follow, but I do think that almost all leaders will benefit.
Like your leader, if you manage to have followers, and it is important
that case to have empathy, to put yourself into the shoes of those that
you want to inspire, that you want to help and want to lead and want to
manage and want to give a perspective.
I think that is something that I see that quality very much in this individual.
And it, wasn't only on a professional level.
It wasn't only okay what do you want to check?
How much do you want to earn a year?
Your KPIs?
It was actually almost the opposite, right?
It was giving you the space of making your decisions which I found very
important and almost like focusing more about how to describe the challenge.
And what that, what achieving the challenge would mean.
Maybe the story about now I may or may not get the whole story together,
but it's a bit like when you want to convince people, building a boat
and going to the other side of the.
ocean Don't tell them all the hard work, cutting the trees
and putting the boat together.
And then we, talk to them about, what it means to have this boat and
exploring the alternate, exploring new countries, like speak of the
possibilities, focus on those things.
Focus on the purpose, focus on the meaning of doing this this type of work.
And I think at least in my case with this individual that has helped me and it
gives perspective, it gives a much wider.
Of your role and the role of the project, the organization and the team.
Why am I here?
It's answering that question.
Why am I here?
Yes, I think what you're pointing out is something with Simon Sinek also calls VI.
And I think for me, it's the very project focused or very task oriented
thinking and zooming out and seeing things from a bigger picture and then
making maybe some different choices from what that new perspective brings.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing, sharing that.
Yeah.
Of course.
No worries.
Yeah.
It's certainly it's certainly, I want to also emphasize again, that this, that
match between the leader and those set are led it's a matching, it's a matching.
I see.
Now I have been seasoned.
I have been in different roles as a leader, and I noticed also that if I'm
taking over the teams, which I haven't hired in the beginning when I did this.
Quite some while ago.
I remember that I was surprised how different, what they expect,
that the expectations were quite a different of that team towards me,
but the dynamics, the chemistry was very different as opposed to those
that I I hired where we had to match.
Hope to say, like the right set up, that we, so I had to change my style.
I had to adapt my style.
I had to be more open and I had to be more broad minded, and understanding
and be curious again, as to what the expectations are and how do I bring the
team together of quite diverse styles of thinking, I guess it comes with the
going up in the the business hierarchy that you grow with your challenges.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
And as your support spoke about changing, as you spoke about being
seasoned, is there any particular belief around leadership, which you
have changed your view over time?
I think I learned something every day.
I think that it's.
Maybe I can highlight two things like one is that in your career, but by and large,
it's a tendency moving from knowing the technology, knowing the things that you
learned in school learning the technical things that say it doesn't matter if
it's it or legal or anything that you move over time, that the expectation
is higher and higher as you grow in the organization that you understand that.
So you're moving much more from understanding the ticket.
So understanding the social environment that Roger can be, the
customers can be people in your team can be your can your coworkers can
be the rest of the organization.
So there's a clear transition.
And I think it is in the benefit you stay purely in a technical
position and that's also perfectly fine, nothing wrong with it.
Obviously.
A few, a long, very long in an organization and you a
primarily a technology person.
That's perfectly fine.
You need those properties too.
But generally speaking, there's a tendency for you to understand more,
to introduce the new people into the.
That's something I learned early and I see this very much implemented.
The expectation by me for me is not only to know the latest algorithm,
but to actually also understand how do I attract the people that
know the latest awkward, how do I keep them all happy and meaningful?
It's all right.
The other thing is, I think that's an overall macro trends, in the
ecosystem, if you compare it.
Let's say if the leadership style or the expectation of a manager or CEO or 50
years back to today, it has certainly become more wide and compassionate in.
And now I'm also slightly biased here because I know the it AI world.
And I know it mostly from a I'll just say Western point of view.
Although I have been also working in the middle east and I'm aware of lots
of colleagues in other countries, but.
There is an expectation, particularly by the younger generation that the value
offer by the company when you're employed.
It's not only one.
He has a paycheck, he is the money.
You should be happy work.
There is much more expectation.
You need to have a good plan or.
Expanding of learning more of having opportunities to grow.
You want to be respected.
You want to have a purpose in the organization that you're working in.
So let's say the.
The value that you're offering an employee or that you offer anyone that joins a
company is becoming more becoming wider becoming it's not just the hard money,
but it's also other aspects you want to work in an inspiring environment.
You want to work with colleagues that are.
Supportive for heart or whatever you need.
So it becomes wider.
I think that's a very clear trend.
And then of course, what that means as a leader or manager, is
you need to understand that too.
And in encapsulate these, I think if you have a leader of 50 years back, which
is very harsh and hard and very happens, it can also be appropriate, but there's
definitely a need to have a wider way of.
Just before we wrap up, like you spoke about 50 years back.
And I think everybody agrees that there is a huge difference
in where we are today in the style of leadership from 50 years ago.
Where do you think we are going in the future?
And I won't say 50 years into the future because the rate of change
itself is accelerating so much.
So maybe in the next two decades, where do you think we are going with this AI.
In permitting almost everything, which is which is mechanical, which is road.
And then what does the role of a leader really becomes if AI basically takes up
almost everything, which is like very structured, which is very rational.
So I think I've probably two considerations and I've been in in
several leadership courses and workshops with leaders set up today, directors,
or that under 35 prodigies of companies.
And a similar question then comes up.
What does a leader need?
You're not in the age of AI and the age of intelligence systems and the HR data.
I think one important part is that you surround yourself.
With people that you trust that know these new technologies you want to be
very confident that you're on top of that of these types of technologies.
Seven would be, I think that is one trends where you need to
be over the next two decades.
The really surrounding yourself with that because there's a, AI is a technology
just to take that technology that a couple of others, that gentleman and so on.
But it is something that requires very much your attention to that will
require a different type of thinking.
Also how the team and everyone in an organization of customers
are using AI based technology.
So I think that's a very important part.
And the second part.
I think this trend will continue that we have the more
democratized work environment.
I think there will be more Oh, what do you want to call it?
More expectations by everyone to be more involved, to be having a
more transparent organization, to understand what leaders should does
now with the age of the internet, which is the previous big wave that we
experienced in some countries, such as Sweden, where I'm currently living in.
We have essentially everything is online.
So every company.
Has to publish and everyone can look it up.
How many people live there?
What is the revenue of the company?
Everything is pretty transparent.
I think there's a higher expectation for those things to be transparent.
And therefore, as this happens, they will also be a larger degree of democracy.
And I think that doesn't only mean things will be easier for leaders.
In fact, I think.
You need to think about how you deal with that, because now suddenly you
have many employees in the organization that have access to information,
which 50 years ago were impossible to, will you have your hands on?
And that can be good thing if you know what to do with it.
Yes.
I think that.
And the democratization of almost everything we do, is it still for
good, very good metaphor for the way leadership and management is moving
forward where people want to be involved and yes, that might be challenging
or that might produce some anxiety or some change in the short term.
But I think over.
There's a huge potential of a lot of productivity getting unlocked, which is
somehow inhibited because of because of the 50 year old management style still
creeping in, in the language and the tools we use in the frameworks we use.
So I'm quite hopeful for what the democratization of technology
or leadership and yeah.
What if leadership is like peer to peer like internet works
and what would that enable?
And yes, new skills, but also a lot of new places.
And that would bring that's another consideration that there will be much
more how to say giving responsibilities to individuals in the organization along
the lines of, would you say you can take the lead on a particular topic, right?
And that's your responsibility in the organization and that's.
That's already happening now.
I do that a fair bit too.
And yeah, it's a it's a lot of opportunities.
Turn this into the right direction or make everyone happy and also
make your role in an organization.
More meaningful.
I think that's what democratization can do.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you, Christian, for your wonderful thoughts.
So before we end, if anybody who is listening to this wants to
know more about, you wants to get in touch with, feed about your
work, where can they find you
contact me?
I am on I'm sharing lots of great articles on LinkedIn.
LinkedIn is a great channel to be in touch with me and Twitter.
I'm also on Instagram.
Look me up Christian Guttmann, happy to be in touch then.
And yeah, on Twitter, Chris STG, you'll find me there.
Don't hesitate to be in touch.
Thank you.
Thank you, Christian.
Once again for your time and for sharing your insights.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me Sumit.
Yeah.
That's it for this episode of choosing leadership with summit.
I choose leadership every time I record this podcast and I
invite you to do the same.
I invite you to design a life of joy, meaning pride and satisfaction.
Not just for yourself, but also for those around you.
This is what I do most naturally to lovingly and gently provoke you.
To help you see your own light to help you see what you are already capable of.
I say what might be uncomfortable for me to say, or for you to hear.
To show you that all of our dreams which have been on hold are within our grasp.
If you like the sound of it, do not forget to leave a rating.
I invite you to subscribe to my newsletter@deployyourself.com
slash newsletter.
You can also reach out on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook to share
any other comment or feedback.
I want to thank everyone who contributed to making the show.
At reality.
And thank you for listening.
Always remember that you are enough, you are loved and you matter, this is summit.
Until next time, keep choosing leadership.