WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.019 Matt: Hey Brian, welcome back to the WP Minute. 00:00:02.649 --> 00:00:03.599 Glad to be here. 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:08.060 today we are going to unpack the disrupt. 00:00:08.190 --> 00:00:09.600 Organize the disrupt. 00:00:10.370 --> 00:00:12.140 Disrupt 2024 just happened. 00:00:12.190 --> 00:00:17.179 an event I used to always mark on my calendar, back in my more 00:00:17.189 --> 00:00:20.239 youthful entrepreneurship days in the, in the startup world. 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:24.849 And I would, watch every single session going, how, how, how can I do this too? 00:00:24.909 --> 00:00:28.979 Fast forward to 2024, not so much anymore until, of course, Matt 00:00:28.979 --> 00:00:34.289 Mullenweg appeared in an interview talking all about WP Engine. 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:37.959 When he announced that he was going to be speaking at Disrupt, Half of 00:00:37.959 --> 00:00:41.009 me was like, Oh, I wonder if he's just totally going to ignore the WP 00:00:41.009 --> 00:00:43.959 engine stuff and just like talk about cool stuff happening with WordPress. 00:00:43.999 --> 00:00:46.679 Kind of like we all knew it was happening in the background. 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:51.539 But this interview, with Connie Loizos was number one. 00:00:51.539 --> 00:00:52.279 It was fantastic. 00:00:52.589 --> 00:00:55.209 number two, it was actually a surprise that it was just purely 00:00:55.219 --> 00:00:58.120 about this, This current current affairs that we're in, with the 00:00:58.120 --> 00:01:00.720 lawsuit, with WP Engine and Automatic. 00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:03.660 and I really appreciated, the 30 ish minutes. 00:01:03.660 --> 00:01:06.480 I thought it was all really well used and well thought out. 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:09.580 And in today's episode, we're going to pull out some of those parts. 00:01:09.620 --> 00:01:11.150 definitely link to it in the show notes. 00:01:11.150 --> 00:01:12.190 Go watch the full thing. 00:01:12.190 --> 00:01:14.720 We're not going to play all of it, but there are some key points that I 00:01:14.730 --> 00:01:17.910 think, That I've highlighted that I think are, are, would have been nice to 00:01:17.910 --> 00:01:21.500 know years ago and also, some clarity around, like, what's happening now. 00:01:21.880 --> 00:01:22.820 that's what we're gonna do today. 00:01:22.870 --> 00:01:23.330 should be fun. 00:01:24.370 --> 00:01:25.240 Brian: Yeah, sounds good. 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:30.070 you, you always like get concerned when a journalist interviews in your specific 00:01:30.080 --> 00:01:33.660 area that they're not going to have maybe the best questions or something like that. 00:01:33.660 --> 00:01:35.270 But this, that was not the case at that. 00:01:35.580 --> 00:01:36.550 Great questions. 00:01:36.830 --> 00:01:38.570 great narrative of the interview. 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.360 so I think, yeah, I think it was, it was worthwhile. 00:01:42.020 --> 00:01:42.930 for anybody to watch. 00:01:43.100 --> 00:01:43.350 Matt: Yeah. 00:01:43.350 --> 00:01:46.760 This one, we always, you know, we collectively in the community 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:50.890 always sort of like point fingers and at TechCrunch at, at times we're 00:01:50.940 --> 00:01:54.630 like, Oh, you're not, you're not understanding how this whole thing works. 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:56.650 but this one, was great. 00:01:56.650 --> 00:01:59.320 And we're going to just talk about some of the things that I've, I found 00:01:59.320 --> 00:02:03.650 was interesting and particularly, which I've never heard before is 00:02:04.070 --> 00:02:06.050 Matt's approach to all things product. 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:09.040 So let me just go ahead and play this little clip right here. 00:02:09.640 --> 00:02:13.270 Mullenweg: And, so nowadays we have Tumblr, you know, WooCommerce, which 00:02:13.270 --> 00:02:17.405 is kind of open source Shopify, only, Platform growing as fast as Shopify. 00:02:18.845 --> 00:02:22.735 Oh, podcasting apps like Pocket Cast, day one journaling. 00:02:22.965 --> 00:02:26.095 So we have a whole portfolio of, of everything basically, but our, 00:02:26.115 --> 00:02:28.965 the common thread between it all is we try to be privacy centric, 00:02:28.975 --> 00:02:30.495 user centric and open source. 00:02:30.595 --> 00:02:31.685 Connie: That's Parsley. 00:02:32.075 --> 00:02:33.069 We love Parsley as well. 00:02:33.790 --> 00:02:35.690 Matt: I totally forgot about Parsley, by the way. 00:02:35.690 --> 00:02:37.810 I remember that from, you know, years ago. 00:02:37.810 --> 00:02:41.300 But, privacy centric, user centric, and open source. 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:47.320 The first time that I've actually heard it framed that way, which was interesting. 00:02:47.320 --> 00:02:50.370 Like, the open source part, yes, I know that, and I think everyone 00:02:50.370 --> 00:02:52.430 listening to this knows that. 00:02:52.430 --> 00:02:56.450 But the interesting part of just that little sort of throwaway statement 00:02:56.450 --> 00:02:58.900 is privacy centric, user centric. 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:02.520 Those are the two that I've not Specifically privacy. 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.480 Like I know like the purchasing of text messaging apps and stuff like that 00:03:05.490 --> 00:03:09.230 were were thing where he was talking about like privacy and, data security. 00:03:09.230 --> 00:03:13.770 And I know day one is, said to be, you know, private and certainly 00:03:13.910 --> 00:03:17.240 user centric, but that was just an interesting point that I thought, 00:03:17.300 --> 00:03:20.690 I've never really, really heard him lead with, with all things automatic, 00:03:20.890 --> 00:03:21.290 Brian: Yeah. 00:03:21.380 --> 00:03:25.540 If you've, if you've ever had customers on WordPress VIP, you 00:03:25.540 --> 00:03:28.180 would not have forgotten Parsley because they are very aggressive 00:03:28.190 --> 00:03:30.180 on, selling it in the VIP world. 00:03:30.510 --> 00:03:33.670 but yeah, that is going to, I guess I would have never thought user centric. 00:03:34.130 --> 00:03:36.750 that was the one that stuck out to me, but then actually you do think about it, 00:03:36.750 --> 00:03:44.180 like they don't own, they really don't own things like that are B2B company. 00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:44.690 You know what I mean? 00:03:44.690 --> 00:03:47.700 Like they're, he really does own a lot of user products, 00:03:47.700 --> 00:03:50.020 user software, and not like. 00:03:50.550 --> 00:03:54.550 You know, I don't know, he's not out there, selling Salesforce 00:03:54.550 --> 00:03:55.630 or something like that, I guess. 00:03:55.650 --> 00:03:59.050 So yeah, I guess in the sense that, and it's like, I feel like I use, I think I 00:03:59.050 --> 00:04:00.500 use everything he just listed right there. 00:04:00.510 --> 00:04:00.800 So, 00:04:00.810 --> 00:04:01.100 Matt: yeah. 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:02.290 we'll start to dive. 00:04:02.290 --> 00:04:06.480 It goes right into, you know, this, this whole, WP engine versus automatic 00:04:06.480 --> 00:04:08.170 stuff or automatic versus WP engine. 00:04:08.530 --> 00:04:10.510 and again, this is all her questions. 00:04:10.550 --> 00:04:13.360 this was the questions that Connie came with and the framing of it 00:04:13.390 --> 00:04:17.070 and did a really great job, with asking Matt, some of the stuff. 00:04:17.785 --> 00:04:22.485 I'll say like, if you're interior to the community, like if you're someone, 00:04:22.595 --> 00:04:27.615 you know, putting out the questions, I feel like everyone's sort of walking 00:04:27.615 --> 00:04:31.885 the plank these days, for lack of a better phrase, we all are concerned 00:04:31.885 --> 00:04:33.635 with even questioning this stuff. 00:04:33.905 --> 00:04:38.780 So it It's great to see this, a third party who's independent from WordPress, 00:04:38.940 --> 00:04:44.050 that was, you know, very well read into, the community and what's happening, 00:04:44.340 --> 00:04:49.410 but also can sort of stand on their own two, two feet without concern of getting 00:04:49.410 --> 00:04:52.260 kicked out of, Slack or wordpress. 00:04:52.260 --> 00:04:52.650 org. 00:04:52.700 --> 00:04:57.925 and, and that's the unfortunate thing that I think we're, We're all faced with when 00:04:57.925 --> 00:04:59.645 we're commenting on this stuff, right? 00:04:59.645 --> 00:05:02.615 it's, it's just the unfortunate state of affairs that we're in these days, but 00:05:02.615 --> 00:05:04.605 we're just reacting to the questions. 00:05:05.005 --> 00:05:07.615 In this conversation, I'm priming it. 00:05:07.835 --> 00:05:10.175 I'm trying to prime as much as I possibly can here, Brian. 00:05:10.725 --> 00:05:13.735 Brian: I, you know, there's a lot of people who, I see that they get blocked 00:05:13.745 --> 00:05:18.175 and I, I, I kind of can't really comment, it's like, well, I don't know. 00:05:18.175 --> 00:05:19.125 You were a little personal. 00:05:19.125 --> 00:05:22.945 You were a little mean, I don't really think you should be surprised, but 00:05:22.945 --> 00:05:27.385 yes, there's definitely a general sense that even for people who just want 00:05:27.385 --> 00:05:30.465 to be supportive and you feel like, I don't, I just want to phrase this in a 00:05:30.465 --> 00:05:34.695 right way so that if any context gets stripped out, it doesn't appear like I'm. 00:05:35.235 --> 00:05:38.455 worthy of, of being punished in the community. 00:05:39.205 --> 00:05:42.575 Matt: So this is one of these segments, where it would be like a 00:05:42.575 --> 00:05:47.295 nice to know many years ago, Connie tees it up with, asking Matt about 00:05:47.355 --> 00:05:48.615 what's happening with WP Engine. 00:05:48.615 --> 00:05:52.645 She starts it, kicks it off with you declared war using your own 00:05:52.645 --> 00:05:56.245 words on them and skipping into his, response a little bit here. 00:05:56.415 --> 00:05:58.725 I'm going to play this clip, where they have a little back and forth. 00:05:59.335 --> 00:06:01.885 Mullenweg: And actually, you know, we worked pretty closely 00:06:01.885 --> 00:06:03.435 with them since they're starting. 00:06:03.435 --> 00:06:07.835 We're actually a seed investor, but in 2018 they were, we were kicked 00:06:07.835 --> 00:06:10.215 out and they were bought by this private equity firm, silver Lake. 00:06:10.555 --> 00:06:11.315 And since then, can 00:06:11.315 --> 00:06:12.235 Connie: I back up there for a second? 00:06:12.245 --> 00:06:13.455 You were, you were kicked out. 00:06:13.715 --> 00:06:17.035 So they bought your shares, but you sold them unwillingly. 00:06:17.335 --> 00:06:20.655 Mullenweg: Yeah, we would have loved to have remained involved, but Silverlake 00:06:20.805 --> 00:06:24.905 kind of took it over and, like they've done with many open source and open 00:06:24.905 --> 00:06:29.115 companies, they've, they've really taken it in a quite, profit maximizing place. 00:06:29.565 --> 00:06:29.835 So 00:06:32.175 --> 00:06:34.805 Matt: I've never heard of that before, like somebody just, 00:06:35.725 --> 00:06:37.205 you know, just gets kicked out. 00:06:37.495 --> 00:06:40.865 obviously I don't know like what happened behind the scenes and it even 00:06:40.865 --> 00:06:42.885 seemed like Connie wasn't really sure. 00:06:42.975 --> 00:06:43.965 Let me just play that part one more time. 00:06:44.325 --> 00:06:45.855 Mullenweg: That is private equity firm Silver Lake. 00:06:46.185 --> 00:06:46.925 And since then, can 00:06:46.925 --> 00:06:47.805 Connie: I back up there for a second? 00:06:47.815 --> 00:06:50.795 You were, you were kicked out, so they bought your shares, 00:06:50.835 --> 00:06:52.345 but you sold them unwillingly. 00:06:52.635 --> 00:06:54.995 Mullenweg: Yeah, we would have loved to have remained involved. 00:06:55.375 --> 00:06:57.255 Matt: So they bought your shares. 00:06:58.185 --> 00:06:59.735 But you sold them unwillingly. 00:06:59.735 --> 00:07:02.485 I, you know, again, I don't know how that happens. 00:07:02.485 --> 00:07:06.005 I don't know if maybe at the time they were just like, Oh, this whole, 00:07:06.035 --> 00:07:07.595 the Silver Lake company is coming in. 00:07:07.895 --> 00:07:09.205 I don't want to be a part of this. 00:07:09.225 --> 00:07:11.085 And then they sold or they sold and got their return. 00:07:11.135 --> 00:07:11.935 I, who knows. 00:07:12.355 --> 00:07:16.465 but I found that like a really interesting part for, for Matt to say, 00:07:16.465 --> 00:07:18.745 well, back in 2018, we were kicked out. 00:07:19.085 --> 00:07:22.505 I, I'd never heard about that before that, and I hadn't really heard him say 00:07:22.505 --> 00:07:24.635 that up until this interview, in fact, 00:07:25.025 --> 00:07:25.275 Brian: Yeah. 00:07:25.275 --> 00:07:26.705 That, that phrasing was new. 00:07:26.735 --> 00:07:31.475 I've heard, I did see some people online saying there are ways where, depending 00:07:31.475 --> 00:07:34.495 on the types of shares you have, there are situations where it's not like. 00:07:35.090 --> 00:07:38.310 unrealistic that this, you could be kind of forced into a 00:07:38.310 --> 00:07:39.580 sellout or something like that. 00:07:39.940 --> 00:07:42.810 So that it's, cause like at first I thought, well, that just doesn't make 00:07:42.810 --> 00:07:44.060 sense, but I don't know enough about it. 00:07:44.090 --> 00:07:46.940 And there were some people saying that is something that is definitely 00:07:46.940 --> 00:07:49.020 possible and something they could have gotten wrapped up in. 00:07:49.060 --> 00:07:51.440 I do think though, like his phrasing of saying that. 00:07:51.875 --> 00:07:55.385 WP Engine is an open source company is a little bit different because I 00:07:55.395 --> 00:07:59.505 think the other times Silver Lake buys these companies, they actually get 00:07:59.635 --> 00:08:02.715 access to the open source projects. 00:08:02.885 --> 00:08:05.815 So they buy the company that runs the project or owns the project. 00:08:06.115 --> 00:08:09.305 Whereas in this case, WP Engine is not some open source company 00:08:09.305 --> 00:08:10.945 that owns an open source project. 00:08:11.545 --> 00:08:12.235 You know what I mean? 00:08:12.235 --> 00:08:14.685 So it's not like Silver Lake came in and bought WordPress. 00:08:14.685 --> 00:08:17.455 They bought one person in WordPress. 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:18.870 Matt: so obviously the. 00:08:19.555 --> 00:08:20.595 Conversation continues on. 00:08:20.595 --> 00:08:23.485 I'm going to play this clip where, Connie tees up trying to 00:08:23.485 --> 00:08:25.245 get to the root of, of the issue. 00:08:25.505 --> 00:08:28.685 Connie: So again, just trying to get to the root of, I guess, what's 00:08:28.685 --> 00:08:30.505 happening and, and how it gets resolved. 00:08:30.805 --> 00:08:34.495 So, you're frustrated by some of the things that they did, 00:08:34.585 --> 00:08:39.095 including making the revisionist, revision history harder to manage. 00:08:39.765 --> 00:08:43.225 I guess the question is, was that any of your business to start with? 00:08:45.435 --> 00:08:46.715 Mullenweg: What was any of my business? 00:08:46.715 --> 00:08:47.045 What do you mean? 00:08:47.045 --> 00:08:49.645 Connie: What WP engine does, how it conducts its. 00:08:50.195 --> 00:08:50.885 Mullenweg: Oh, absolutely. 00:08:50.885 --> 00:08:53.805 Cause they were abusing the trademark and creating a lot of confusion in the market. 00:08:55.375 --> 00:08:56.755 Matt: And that's the crux of all this, right? 00:08:56.755 --> 00:09:00.495 That's what a lot of us have been saying and is a root for not only 00:09:00.495 --> 00:09:05.205 this issue, but like the root of a lot of concern for, for any of us. 00:09:05.255 --> 00:09:08.825 and they, and they, she does press them more about like, what happens if somebody 00:09:08.825 --> 00:09:15.155 else's, if As successful, if or more than WP Engine and this is the like the, 00:09:15.735 --> 00:09:20.035 the, the weight that I think a lot of us feel right now is like we're all looking 00:09:20.035 --> 00:09:25.155 at WP Engine going, what's going to happen legally and we don't know for many 00:09:25.155 --> 00:09:28.875 years, which we'll find out later in this conversation, potentially, and, that's the 00:09:28.875 --> 00:09:33.735 big thing, like the word, the phrase WP Minute, am I, in the line of sight, right. 00:09:33.735 --> 00:09:38.675 And all of this WP beginner, like any, so many of us who have started WP 00:09:38.685 --> 00:09:43.975 something or something WP, you know, for 20 years, a lot of us are thinking, 00:09:44.575 --> 00:09:46.505 could, can any of us, go through this? 00:09:46.505 --> 00:09:49.715 And we just saw this too, unfortunately with Jason Coleman and paid memberships 00:09:49.715 --> 00:09:50.855 pro where he decided to pull. 00:09:51.330 --> 00:09:55.420 paid memberships pro out of the WordPress repo and the repository reported on 00:09:55.420 --> 00:10:01.740 this that they saw direct messages from Matt to Jason saying like, Hey, look, we 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:06.350 might take over your slug, the premise login WordPress dot org, take over 00:10:06.350 --> 00:10:12.615 the plugin, in fact, and that stuff is You know, alarming, to say the least. 00:10:13.025 --> 00:10:15.775 And, I get it about the trademark abuse. 00:10:15.815 --> 00:10:17.875 Totally get it, legally and on paper. 00:10:18.055 --> 00:10:23.195 but there's just a lot of confusion in the air about what is confusing, what is 00:10:23.195 --> 00:10:26.715 infringing, and, and, and maybe at the end of the day when this dust settles, 00:10:26.715 --> 00:10:30.125 there'll, there'll be more clarity, but I think everyone's kind of, sort 00:10:30.125 --> 00:10:31.525 of, sitting on their hands right now. 00:10:33.520 --> 00:10:37.850 Brian: I mean, I kind of get what he's saying about WP Engine's use 00:10:37.850 --> 00:10:42.270 of the word WordPress more than WP, like the actual WordPress trademark. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.420 And I, I do, I mean, they did clean up their site since this has happened. 00:10:46.430 --> 00:10:47.780 They've been a lot more clear about it. 00:10:48.010 --> 00:10:49.480 They've changed the names of a lot of their products. 00:10:49.510 --> 00:10:52.230 I think it's, it's not even really the worst argument. 00:10:52.690 --> 00:10:53.110 I think. 00:10:53.800 --> 00:11:00.690 The part about the revisions though, is this kind of weird tangent where his, 00:11:00.730 --> 00:11:03.900 I think part of his claim is that you can't take, you can't take something 00:11:03.900 --> 00:11:08.250 that's GPL like WordPress, change the core software and then give it the 00:11:08.250 --> 00:11:10.210 same name and still call it WordPress. 00:11:10.525 --> 00:11:14.755 You buy GPL, you have to rename it, give it a different name and 00:11:14.775 --> 00:11:16.045 make sure that that's open source. 00:11:16.045 --> 00:11:20.745 But if you go to WPN right now, you, they're not giving you a different 00:11:20.745 --> 00:11:22.635 version of a WordPress core software. 00:11:22.645 --> 00:11:25.645 They didn't change WordPress core in any way. 00:11:25.645 --> 00:11:27.555 It's still the same exact WordPress core. 00:11:27.995 --> 00:11:30.965 They turn off revisions, but that's a filter that anybody can do. 00:11:30.975 --> 00:11:32.705 It's not changing courts. 00:11:32.715 --> 00:11:35.195 It's actually a core feature to be able to do that. 00:11:35.595 --> 00:11:38.095 And so I think for a lot of people, it's like, well, part of it 00:11:38.095 --> 00:11:39.195 hinges on this idea that they're. 00:11:39.495 --> 00:11:41.985 Tweaking WordPress or bastardizing it as he says. 00:11:42.285 --> 00:11:44.685 But I think that's one where it's just, I think you could just kind 00:11:44.685 --> 00:11:47.775 of just flat out say that that's not really what's happening. 00:11:48.025 --> 00:11:50.545 whereas are they using the word WordPress a little more than 00:11:50.545 --> 00:11:51.565 maybe they should be out to? 00:11:52.515 --> 00:11:54.735 I think he's on like firmer ground on that one. 00:11:55.565 --> 00:11:57.725 Matt: I'll let, I'll, I'll let the, that part of the clip 00:11:57.725 --> 00:11:58.955 continue to play out, to be fair. 00:11:58.955 --> 00:12:02.375 So he can state sort of like his, his side of it on the confusion. 00:12:02.375 --> 00:12:04.265 And that's gonna go into another interesting point 00:12:04.265 --> 00:12:05.825 that I highlighted about 8%. 00:12:06.135 --> 00:12:07.725 but let's continue where Matt left off. 00:12:08.090 --> 00:12:11.500 Mullenweg: So if you look, actually, since this started, they've had, we 00:12:11.500 --> 00:12:15.060 used to make tens of thousands of customers leave and including, like, 00:12:15.090 --> 00:12:18.360 I had a friend of mine, Bob Perkowitz, who was in the, the CNBC article. 00:12:18.650 --> 00:12:19.610 He's a close personal friend. 00:12:19.610 --> 00:12:20.700 I've known him for 15 years. 00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:22.920 He had eight sites on WP Engine. 00:12:23.110 --> 00:12:23.750 He thought it was me. 00:12:25.070 --> 00:12:27.660 So it wasn't until this story came out that he was like, oh, and so 00:12:27.660 --> 00:12:29.580 that was, you know, he was one of the customers that has left. 00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:33.050 So, You know, I think over the next few weeks, they're actually going to lose far 00:12:33.050 --> 00:12:34.410 more than 8 percent of their business. 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.750 And so that's part of what they've, they've said actually in their filings. 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:41.110 I think they had cancellations of 29%, everything. 00:12:41.110 --> 00:12:43.960 So I think that shows that as their customers are learning that 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:45.940 they're actually not officially associated with WordPress. 00:12:45.940 --> 00:12:47.930 In fact, are attacking WordPress. 00:12:48.380 --> 00:12:49.030 They're moving off. 00:12:49.640 --> 00:12:49.930 Connie: Okay, 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:52.370 Matt: so this is the interesting part that I had to highlight. 00:12:52.370 --> 00:12:53.580 It's a longer segment. 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.980 Connie: So, you wanted, so I don't think we established that you had asked 00:12:56.980 --> 00:13:00.520 them for basically 8 percent of their, either their revenue or 8 percent 00:13:00.540 --> 00:13:04.470 of the equivalent of revenue in like engineering hours working on the core. 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.770 One of your biggest beefs with them, in addition to saying now that they 00:13:07.770 --> 00:13:10.000 were abusing your trademark, was that they weren't contributing enough 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:12.390 to the WordPress sort of community. 00:13:12.910 --> 00:13:14.430 Mullenweg: Well, that's the way to put it, yeah. 00:13:14.430 --> 00:13:16.630 I wanted to give them the option because I knew they were going to. 00:13:17.025 --> 00:13:18.215 Weaponize this and publish it. 00:13:18.515 --> 00:13:20.275 So I wanted to say, it's not just about the money. 00:13:20.285 --> 00:13:23.525 It's really about, like, you know, if you're going to profit off the WordPress 00:13:23.545 --> 00:13:27.785 trademark, you know, you need to be part of, you know, the WordPress ecosystem. 00:13:28.165 --> 00:13:29.895 But also, it was the WooCommerce trademark as well. 00:13:29.925 --> 00:13:32.205 So there's that whole other thing that they were abusing. 00:13:32.665 --> 00:13:34.745 Connie: Just wondering how you settled on 8%. 00:13:35.810 --> 00:13:36.980 Mullenweg: based on business analysis. 00:13:37.060 --> 00:13:40.260 So, you know, if you estimate that would be about 32 million, they still would 00:13:40.260 --> 00:13:41.450 have been a free cashflow positive. 00:13:41.450 --> 00:13:47.890 Matt: So this is another part where it's still not clear for me. 00:13:48.140 --> 00:13:49.210 I don't know about you, but it. 00:13:49.680 --> 00:13:52.320 Like this chicken or the egg kind of thing. 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.500 Is it, is it the 8 percent that you want or like the trademark 00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:56.670 agreement that you want? 00:13:56.690 --> 00:14:01.850 Is it the, you know, contributions back, to, open source WordPress 00:14:01.880 --> 00:14:03.560 and, and the community. 00:14:03.860 --> 00:14:05.240 that's the part that wasn't clear. 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:08.770 It sounds like they were trying to do a deal. 00:14:09.580 --> 00:14:13.070 For however long it's been 18 months or something like we'll get to that part. 00:14:13.330 --> 00:14:15.760 it sounds like they were trying to do like the trademark deal for a while, 00:14:16.810 --> 00:14:20.820 but what's not clear for me was like, have, have you been, an advocate 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:22.850 for them to, to take part in this? 00:14:22.850 --> 00:14:24.390 Like when you pulled out in 2018. 00:14:25.755 --> 00:14:31.435 when Matt pulled out and Automatic pulled out in 2018, did you start advocating 00:14:31.445 --> 00:14:36.135 then to do more stuff, you know, to contribute more hours towards, Core, 00:14:36.135 --> 00:14:41.035 Five for the Future, more community stuff, like, when did that start versus 00:14:41.055 --> 00:14:45.085 when the, okay, I'm sick and tired of seeing you grow and not do anything and 00:14:45.085 --> 00:14:46.490 now I'm just going to hit you with it? 00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:48.940 Like this trademark and licensing deal thing. 00:14:49.290 --> 00:14:52.330 you know, and I think again, that's just another area of uncertainty, 00:14:52.330 --> 00:14:56.360 at least for me to understand that timeline and why, you know, so many 00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:57.400 of us are scratching our heads. 00:14:58.460 --> 00:14:58.610 Brian: Yeah. 00:14:58.610 --> 00:15:02.520 In other interviews, he said that the, he went after the trademark 00:15:02.530 --> 00:15:05.230 as a way to apply pressure because they weren't contributing enough. 00:15:05.670 --> 00:15:10.530 In here, it sounds like he's saying I added the contributing part later because 00:15:10.530 --> 00:15:14.930 I knew it would be public and it would look better is what it sounds like. 00:15:14.930 --> 00:15:15.060 Right. 00:15:15.060 --> 00:15:16.110 It almost sounds like reverse. 00:15:16.410 --> 00:15:16.630 Yeah. 00:15:16.660 --> 00:15:18.660 And I know he said that the 8 percent is. 00:15:19.125 --> 00:15:24.575 Five for the future 5%, but because that's normally staff hours and because they 00:15:24.575 --> 00:15:29.095 didn't want to put staff towards it, he would have to hire staff and manage them. 00:15:29.305 --> 00:15:33.845 And that's an additional 3 percent overhead of all the HR and everything 00:15:33.845 --> 00:15:35.905 that it requires to manage staff. 00:15:36.185 --> 00:15:38.275 So it's really 8 percent because that would be. 00:15:38.545 --> 00:15:41.925 3 percent for him to manage them and 5 percent for the actual 00:15:41.935 --> 00:15:44.815 staff working on core is, I guess where the number came from. 00:15:45.155 --> 00:15:48.275 Obviously the 5 percent is arbitrary too, but, yeah, I agree with you. 00:15:48.275 --> 00:15:50.615 It's, it's very, it's, it's kind of unclear. 00:15:50.615 --> 00:15:53.895 I think everyone just wants to know, like, what is the ideal outcome here? 00:15:53.895 --> 00:15:57.965 Like if you could have everything you wanted from WP engine and you could win 00:15:58.375 --> 00:16:03.355 the entire situation, would it just be 8 percent of their revenue as a tax? 00:16:03.575 --> 00:16:05.515 Would it actually just be them contributing? 00:16:05.865 --> 00:16:08.035 Would it then be changing their name and just not. 00:16:08.385 --> 00:16:12.485 Being called WPN, like what is the, it's very unclear what he actually wants here. 00:16:12.885 --> 00:16:14.775 I think he knows, but I don't think we know. 00:16:15.035 --> 00:16:15.365 Matt: Yeah. 00:16:15.575 --> 00:16:18.105 And again, I'm trying not to play this whole interview, but I'll let 00:16:18.105 --> 00:16:19.645 this play out just in fairness. 00:16:20.075 --> 00:16:22.605 Mullenweg: And, based on our estimates and, you know, the negotiations that 00:16:22.605 --> 00:16:24.855 we've had over the past 18 months, we felt like that was a fair amount 00:16:25.305 --> 00:16:25.735 na: because by the 00:16:25.735 --> 00:16:27.675 Mullenweg: way, they, if you look at the art, part of the reason 00:16:27.675 --> 00:16:29.725 it's so profitable is they don't. 00:16:30.270 --> 00:16:32.900 Do they don't have any IP, they don't create WordPress, they don't spend 00:16:32.900 --> 00:16:35.700 any money on the primary thing that they're selling to their customers. 00:16:35.990 --> 00:16:39.400 So if you look at any other tech company, they're spending way more on R and D. 00:16:39.430 --> 00:16:42.690 So this is basically kind of like their outsourced R and D cost. 00:16:42.837 --> 00:16:44.417 Matt: Yeah, that's a tough one, right? 00:16:44.427 --> 00:16:46.427 I mean, they're spending on infrastructure, they're spending on, 00:16:46.437 --> 00:16:50.607 you know, humans, they're spending on the, the interface of, like, if you're 00:16:50.607 --> 00:16:55.887 just looking at hosting alone, not even talking about, you know, ACF and, and 00:16:56.037 --> 00:16:59.457 local and all like all this other stuff, but if you're just like hosting, like 00:16:59.727 --> 00:17:03.577 they are, Spending there so they it's not like he's just trying to paint this 00:17:03.577 --> 00:17:05.867 picture like oh They're getting all this for free in there and it's like 00:17:05.877 --> 00:17:09.377 absorbing all this, you know this profit I get what he's saying, but it's also 00:17:09.377 --> 00:17:11.777 like that's an extreme in my opinion 00:17:12.407 --> 00:17:16.277 Brian: They they're I don't think people go like I get his argument that 00:17:16.277 --> 00:17:20.032 people go there People don't go to WP Engine and then they learn about 00:17:20.032 --> 00:17:21.632 WordPress and join the ecosystem. 00:17:22.332 --> 00:17:25.252 People who are already invested heavily in WordPress go to WP 00:17:25.252 --> 00:17:26.732 Engine and use them as a host. 00:17:27.002 --> 00:17:30.422 And so in that sense, they do get to like benefit off the WordPress name. 00:17:31.162 --> 00:17:33.732 The second thing though is like, it's not just hosting. 00:17:33.962 --> 00:17:37.562 It's, it's their hosting, like, experience. 00:17:37.942 --> 00:17:40.912 Like, they nailed developer experience a few years ago. 00:17:41.177 --> 00:17:44.127 To a level that none of the other hosted, which is why they got so popular. 00:17:44.477 --> 00:17:46.547 And that's not, has nothing to do with WordPress. 00:17:46.547 --> 00:17:49.867 That's everything to do with what it feels like to log into WP engine, to launch a 00:17:49.867 --> 00:17:53.887 site, to spin up staging sites, to do all the fancy integrations that developers 00:17:53.887 --> 00:17:56.777 like they solve that so much further. 00:17:58.227 --> 00:18:01.257 people aren't there because they're there for some WordPress software 00:18:01.257 --> 00:18:02.297 that they could get anywhere. 00:18:02.467 --> 00:18:04.067 They're there for the hosting experience. 00:18:04.097 --> 00:18:08.467 And like, that's so it's a, yeah, I kind of, I don't quite agree with this idea 00:18:08.467 --> 00:18:12.267 that they don't have to spend any money on that thing that they're selling, which is. 00:18:12.552 --> 00:18:14.242 The experience of using their platform. 00:18:14.862 --> 00:18:17.922 Connie: Well, they say that they say otherwise, they say they've spent millions 00:18:17.922 --> 00:18:20.912 of hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, developing their business. 00:18:20.932 --> 00:18:24.212 And they also say that they've contributed a lot to the WordPress 00:18:24.212 --> 00:18:30.432 community, plugins, other, you know, sponsorship to a WordCamp. 00:18:30.432 --> 00:18:33.502 Matt: And this, this part is, is very interesting to me to, to, to hear him 00:18:33.502 --> 00:18:35.262 say this, but it's specifically this. 00:18:35.262 --> 00:18:38.362 I mean, sponsorships to work camps are for advertising. 00:18:38.362 --> 00:18:39.092 Yeah. 00:18:39.902 --> 00:18:41.792 That was a first, right? 00:18:41.792 --> 00:18:44.672 I've always looked at it like if you're sponsoring, especially at the 00:18:44.672 --> 00:18:48.022 prices these days, you are doing that. 00:18:49.082 --> 00:18:52.562 It's not, in my book, it's not an advertising play because I think 00:18:52.572 --> 00:18:56.952 advertising dollars could go a lot farther with a lot more impact than a WordCamp. 00:18:57.232 --> 00:19:01.902 in my opinion, was if you're going to sponsor a WordCamp, you're doing it for, 00:19:02.322 --> 00:19:09.472 to support the idea of getting in person events, low ticket prices, you know, two, 00:19:09.472 --> 00:19:14.262 three day events, to support WordPress and not, you know, As an advertising scheme. 00:19:14.262 --> 00:19:16.072 Let me just let this clip play out. 00:19:16.122 --> 00:19:18.912 Mullenweg: You know, so they've, I think that in total that they've 00:19:18.922 --> 00:19:22.292 ever sponsored since they started, I think it's around 400, 000. 00:19:22.472 --> 00:19:26.012 and you know, there's other sponsors that would have happily had their space. 00:19:26.022 --> 00:19:28.692 So they're, they're no longer allowed to sponsor and already other 00:19:28.692 --> 00:19:29.762 companies have taken their spots. 00:19:29.772 --> 00:19:31.172 So it's, it's really advertised. 00:19:31.182 --> 00:19:33.042 It's like if you had sponsors here, they're doing it, 00:19:33.042 --> 00:19:33.962 not just out of altruism. 00:19:33.972 --> 00:19:35.062 They're doing it to get customers. 00:19:35.202 --> 00:19:35.532 Okay. 00:19:35.862 --> 00:19:37.932 Connie: I, how dare you say that about our advertisers? 00:19:39.122 --> 00:19:42.552 Matt: so yeah, I just don't buy it as, as a pure advertising play. 00:19:42.752 --> 00:19:47.942 I, I've always seen sponsoring WordCamps for the price point and 00:19:47.942 --> 00:19:52.612 for what you get in return as a way to support the community at large. 00:19:52.672 --> 00:19:53.372 That's my opinion. 00:19:54.382 --> 00:19:58.417 Brian: Yeah, I kind of go back and forth on that one because, It is out, it is 00:19:58.417 --> 00:20:02.937 advertising, but one is 400, 000 of the sponsorship to the event, but that 00:20:02.937 --> 00:20:06.237 doesn't count all the staff you have to bring, the swag, all this stuff like that. 00:20:06.557 --> 00:20:10.537 And you know, the cheap ticket prices, the swag, the booths, all that stuff 00:20:10.567 --> 00:20:14.247 add up to the experience, the people, the WP Engine employees have been 00:20:14.247 --> 00:20:15.697 speakers that get paid to go there. 00:20:15.697 --> 00:20:16.067 So there's. 00:20:16.447 --> 00:20:19.997 Way more to it than like, we get to see their logo when we go to this conference, 00:20:20.077 --> 00:20:21.887 you know, just the ticket price alone. 00:20:22.177 --> 00:20:26.167 That to me is a sponsorship or a contribution because they're 00:20:26.167 --> 00:20:30.987 subsidizing all of us to get to go to WordCamp by sponsoring and 00:20:30.987 --> 00:20:32.077 keeping the ticket prices low. 00:20:32.077 --> 00:20:35.547 So I think, yeah, it's, it's a little bit more than they just get to free 00:20:35.547 --> 00:20:40.477 advertise to a industry that's already so insular that we all know who WP 00:20:40.477 --> 00:20:44.417 engine is to begin with, you know, this isn't tech crunch with 10, 000 people. 00:20:44.657 --> 00:20:45.327 this is a. 00:20:45.692 --> 00:20:47.122 a small insular group. 00:20:47.122 --> 00:20:47.462 So 00:20:48.062 --> 00:20:48.322 Matt: yeah. 00:20:48.332 --> 00:20:53.312 So, they start to, you know, talk about, another area that was, was really 00:20:53.312 --> 00:20:57.372 under the radar for me, like trying to understand the foundation, wordpress. 00:20:57.382 --> 00:21:03.052 org automatic you and I famously did about an hour and a half, on, unpacking 00:21:03.072 --> 00:21:05.222 a lot of this stuff in, in rapid fire. 00:21:05.492 --> 00:21:08.932 so a lot of the stuff we're learning about, you know, Matt owning wordpress. 00:21:08.932 --> 00:21:10.312 org and running it. 00:21:10.367 --> 00:21:12.727 directly, and the, how the foundation works. 00:21:12.757 --> 00:21:14.767 And this is where Connie starts to get into that with him. 00:21:15.147 --> 00:21:17.597 Connie: You wrote at the time that automatic had transferred the WordPress 00:21:17.607 --> 00:21:22.157 trademark to the WordPress foundation, to ensure access to WordPress and related 00:21:22.157 --> 00:21:23.337 open source projects in perpetuity. 00:21:24.327 --> 00:21:27.417 You added automatic might not always be under my influence. 00:21:27.437 --> 00:21:31.497 So from the beginning, I envisioned a structure where for profit, nonprofit, 00:21:31.517 --> 00:21:34.917 and not just for profit could coexist and balance each other out. 00:21:35.197 --> 00:21:36.317 It's important to me to know that. 00:21:36.612 --> 00:21:39.132 WordPress will be protected and the brand will continue to be a beacon 00:21:39.202 --> 00:21:43.402 of open source freedom, regardless of whether any company is as benevolent 00:21:43.562 --> 00:21:44.892 as Automatic has been thus far. 00:21:45.052 --> 00:21:47.692 It sounds to me like you were saying, take it, go. 00:21:49.332 --> 00:21:51.882 And now it sounds very much like the extreme opposite. 00:21:51.962 --> 00:21:53.442 Mullenweg: It's important to remember the context. 00:21:53.442 --> 00:21:55.312 So Automatic's been around for a while. 00:21:55.782 --> 00:21:57.812 I just celebrated actually 19 years there. 00:21:58.302 --> 00:22:01.692 So, in 2005, when we started, I was 21. 00:22:02.677 --> 00:22:05.547 Our first round was 3. 00:22:05.547 --> 00:22:06.927 3. 00:22:06.927 --> 00:22:08.087 That was our series a, by the way. 00:22:08.497 --> 00:22:12.817 And so, and as a kid, you know, I, I didn't have control over the company 00:22:13.087 --> 00:22:16.427 at the time I, you know, the investors, controlled it and we actually brought 00:22:16.427 --> 00:22:19.877 in a CEO, Tony Schneider, who actually won a crunchy for CEO of the year 00:22:19.887 --> 00:22:22.577 back in the day, I think 2008 or 2009. 00:22:22.957 --> 00:22:27.477 And, So, I mean, fast forward to today, I now vote 84 percent of the shares, you 00:22:27.477 --> 00:22:29.017 know, so I have founder control again. 00:22:31.187 --> 00:22:34.087 Matt: So the foundation and, and the licensing, they go 00:22:34.087 --> 00:22:35.047 on to talk more about it. 00:22:35.077 --> 00:22:37.337 once again, definitely listen to the whole episode. 00:22:38.287 --> 00:22:45.582 I totally understand about the early days of automatic and So I'm trying to straddle 00:22:45.582 --> 00:22:50.122 both sides of the line on this one, where I can understand in the early days. 00:22:50.789 --> 00:22:53.729 It's easy to get, the rug pulled out from under you, especially from 00:22:54.269 --> 00:22:56.709 investors, you know, especially from people who are just looking at you 00:22:56.709 --> 00:22:58.049 going, Hey, you got this big thing. 00:22:58.059 --> 00:22:59.169 You don't even realize it. 00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:00.139 You're building this thing. 00:23:00.139 --> 00:23:02.659 They realize it and they, you know, take control. 00:23:03.509 --> 00:23:04.109 I totally get it. 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:08.517 So on one hand, I'm like, it was smart of him to, protect himself and 00:23:08.517 --> 00:23:10.597 WordPress like that in the early days. 00:23:12.467 --> 00:23:16.457 A part of me wants to believe like none of it was done with the intent of 00:23:16.457 --> 00:23:21.927 how it's rolling out today, but it's certainly at an advantage today for sure. 00:23:22.507 --> 00:23:27.747 so I, I really wrestle with, with like the formation of, you know, 00:23:27.747 --> 00:23:30.887 the foundation and I think I have. 00:23:31.587 --> 00:23:33.877 Yeah, let me continue this clip because this kind of wraps it up. 00:23:34.087 --> 00:23:34.697 Mullenweg: So WordPress. 00:23:34.697 --> 00:23:39.707 org, again, just started with me registering the site on GoDaddy in 2003. 00:23:40.107 --> 00:23:42.287 It didn't officially have a trademark or anything. 00:23:42.387 --> 00:23:43.647 The trademark came a few years later. 00:23:43.997 --> 00:23:45.557 So I've always just run it personally. 00:23:45.997 --> 00:23:48.267 And, so I have a license to run it for WordPress. 00:23:48.267 --> 00:23:48.547 org. 00:23:49.017 --> 00:23:50.117 Automatic has a license. 00:23:50.497 --> 00:23:53.967 if the foundation has a three person board, I'm one of the three. 00:23:54.367 --> 00:23:55.737 So it's truly an independent board. 00:23:56.257 --> 00:23:59.497 And then, yeah, for example, if I were not a good steward of the wordpress. 00:23:59.497 --> 00:24:03.267 org, you know, website and trademark, the foundation could actually take it 00:24:03.267 --> 00:24:04.637 back from me and give it to someone else. 00:24:07.227 --> 00:24:08.107 Matt: That was new to me. 00:24:09.367 --> 00:24:12.327 Like that, that, that last line right there, that the foundation could 00:24:12.327 --> 00:24:17.187 take that license that he wordpress. 00:24:17.187 --> 00:24:19.077 org and give it to somebody else. 00:24:19.967 --> 00:24:24.007 The issue is, yes, technically on paper it's an independent board, 00:24:24.952 --> 00:24:29.842 Because there's two other people, but he's also probably really 00:24:29.842 --> 00:24:31.812 friendly with those two other people. 00:24:32.152 --> 00:24:36.812 so yeah, on paper, everything sounds like technically correct. 00:24:36.942 --> 00:24:41.512 And you would think that if he was acting in bad faith, that. 00:24:42.187 --> 00:24:45.587 That foundation could take that license away from him on, on wordpress. 00:24:45.587 --> 00:24:45.877 org. 00:24:46.467 --> 00:24:49.467 but just a, a very convoluted web. 00:24:50.037 --> 00:24:51.537 I don't know how many metaphors I can throw at this. 00:24:51.917 --> 00:24:56.457 Convoluted web, slippery slope, like there's just a lot here. 00:24:56.947 --> 00:25:02.007 and I think that it wasn't intentional 20 years ago for him to form it this way, 00:25:02.577 --> 00:25:08.087 but it has certainly played out in his, in a surprising advantage these days. 00:25:09.487 --> 00:25:11.687 Brian: I don't think it was set up for Matt. 00:25:11.797 --> 00:25:14.117 I don't think he set it up to give away any control. 00:25:14.147 --> 00:25:21.067 I think he's very known as a founder mode type of guy who wants complete control. 00:25:21.287 --> 00:25:23.937 And I don't really think that's even a problem. 00:25:24.387 --> 00:25:27.657 It's a, it's definitely more of a, like in case of emergency break glass 00:25:27.657 --> 00:25:31.557 situation that it can be taken away from him, but it's not a, I have 00:25:31.557 --> 00:25:35.457 to make every decision, go through some sort of board of people things. 00:25:35.517 --> 00:25:38.917 So I think it doesn't really change my perspective of. 00:25:39.262 --> 00:25:41.752 Matt runs WordPress the way he wants to run WordPress. 00:25:41.752 --> 00:25:43.792 He always has, probably always will. 00:25:43.812 --> 00:25:47.002 I think that's still the same thing it was. 00:25:47.452 --> 00:25:52.042 I think, you know, the, the board makeup obviously is really interesting because 00:25:52.042 --> 00:25:55.442 I don't think anyone ever thought about it before, mainly because no one 00:25:55.442 --> 00:25:59.902 ever really thought that anyone other than Matt could be in charge before. 00:26:00.407 --> 00:26:04.087 And I, there's a part of me that thinks, man, it would be great to have a real 00:26:04.087 --> 00:26:08.317 board of people who are actually invested in the WordPress ecosystem and familiar 00:26:08.317 --> 00:26:13.187 with it, there are two people who it seems like are not engaged with WordPress 00:26:13.197 --> 00:26:16.727 in any meaningful way, their livelihoods don't depend on it or anything like that. 00:26:17.107 --> 00:26:21.237 so part of me thinks, man, it'd be great to have like, you know, Yoast and Syed 00:26:21.237 --> 00:26:24.467 and Miriam Schwab and all these smart people make a real board of WordPress. 00:26:24.817 --> 00:26:26.887 But on the other hand, the other part of me says, well, those 00:26:26.887 --> 00:26:30.247 people all stand to make a lot of money based on these decisions. 00:26:30.437 --> 00:26:32.467 And maybe we don't want a group of people like that running 00:26:32.467 --> 00:26:34.447 WordPress either, you know, so. 00:26:35.292 --> 00:26:39.782 You know, I think it's Matt, it's Matt, Matt Turtles all the way down. 00:26:39.782 --> 00:26:42.012 And I think that's the way it is. 00:26:42.012 --> 00:26:46.762 And I've yet to see anybody come step forward with a truly, you know, 00:26:47.082 --> 00:26:48.512 meaningful alternative to that. 00:26:49.352 --> 00:26:50.942 Matt: And I'm just going to play this for the listener so they can 00:26:50.942 --> 00:26:52.052 hear the other two board members. 00:26:52.607 --> 00:26:53.657 Connie: Who are the other two board members? 00:26:53.867 --> 00:26:55.427 Mullenweg: Shell Farley and Mark Grosh. 00:26:56.457 --> 00:26:57.837 Connie: And what do they think of all of this? 00:26:58.577 --> 00:27:01.177 Mullenweg: well, we just had a board meeting actually a week or two ago. 00:27:01.477 --> 00:27:03.577 We published the minutes on the WordPress foundation sites. 00:27:03.897 --> 00:27:05.247 there's incredibly supportive. 00:27:05.747 --> 00:27:08.757 Matt: I want to move into, you know, later we're about halfway through 00:27:08.757 --> 00:27:13.167 the actual interview and, and what I find, find interesting is, I don't 00:27:13.167 --> 00:27:17.117 know how well Connie knows him and, and like personally and, and how long 00:27:17.117 --> 00:27:20.607 they, they stayed in communication, but, she generally seems concerned. 00:27:21.617 --> 00:27:25.917 As anyone, would like, if with any kind of like details into the situation, I 00:27:25.917 --> 00:27:32.057 mean, I'm concerned, for his, his state of being able to manage all this stuff. 00:27:32.067 --> 00:27:35.107 I've always been critical of him, managing too much. 00:27:35.107 --> 00:27:38.357 I, again, I've said this to him in one of the interviews I had with him, like 00:27:38.357 --> 00:27:40.237 directly said, I think you do too much. 00:27:40.237 --> 00:27:42.047 I think, how can you wear all these hats? 00:27:42.047 --> 00:27:46.147 How can you cover all of these products and these brands and this initiative? 00:27:46.537 --> 00:27:49.497 And you can start to see that come through in the conversation, in this clip. 00:27:49.787 --> 00:27:52.647 Connie: I did see that you tweeted that you, you were just celebrating 00:27:52.647 --> 00:27:54.687 your 19th year at WordPress. 00:27:55.437 --> 00:27:59.517 And there was some support, but much, much of it was, you know, hugely negative. 00:27:59.517 --> 00:28:03.037 Like, we hope it's your last year, and we all hate you, dog. 00:28:03.487 --> 00:28:05.207 sort of typical, ex fair. 00:28:05.217 --> 00:28:07.517 But, how are you absorbing all of that? 00:28:08.482 --> 00:28:11.332 Mullenweg: Well, WP Engine's been very successful in their PR campaign. 00:28:11.452 --> 00:28:15.022 And they've, you know, drummed up a lot of the, the folks who are, sort of 00:28:15.022 --> 00:28:17.362 making, they're trying to make this like, WordPress is in trouble or something. 00:28:17.962 --> 00:28:18.762 Now I 00:28:18.942 --> 00:28:21.112 Matt: haven't seen a PR campaign from WP Engine. 00:28:21.262 --> 00:28:23.702 Mullenweg: It's been challenging, to be honest, and, you know, 00:28:23.742 --> 00:28:24.042 Matt: I wear 00:28:24.042 --> 00:28:24.472 Mullenweg: a whoop. 00:28:25.432 --> 00:28:28.412 My, my recovery and sleep has been kind of weak the past few weeks. 00:28:28.792 --> 00:28:31.192 but it's also been, it's been an incredible showing of support. 00:28:31.272 --> 00:28:32.592 So lots of other executives. 00:28:33.172 --> 00:28:36.052 I was just with Mark Benioff in Hawaii a few days ago. 00:28:36.242 --> 00:28:38.692 So the folks who, like, really understand business and other things 00:28:38.702 --> 00:28:39.702 have been very, very supportive. 00:28:39.752 --> 00:28:42.852 Matt: So yeah, I mean, I'm just generally concerned about like, him managing all 00:28:42.852 --> 00:28:47.192 of this stuff, all under pressure, and again, it seems like, to his credit, 00:28:47.192 --> 00:28:50.062 which he brings up in the conversation, is like, hey, I'm out here doing press, 00:28:50.492 --> 00:28:54.602 I'm out here doing podcasts, you know, blogging about it, and, tweeting about 00:28:54.602 --> 00:28:58.117 it, but there's also a lot of like, Crazy things that I see happening to 00:28:58.117 --> 00:29:01.837 with people getting blocked, get kicked out, banned, taking over plugins. 00:29:01.867 --> 00:29:06.117 It's just like Half of me is like I can totally understand the pressure 00:29:06.117 --> 00:29:08.127 that you're under how can we help you? 00:29:08.127 --> 00:29:11.677 But at the same time like the we is also getting attacked in all this. 00:29:11.757 --> 00:29:14.747 To a certain degree I really struggle with it, but it is interesting to 00:29:14.757 --> 00:29:18.447 hear You know how she's also like looking at him going you get a lot 00:29:18.447 --> 00:29:20.677 here Buddy, like, can you handle it? 00:29:21.577 --> 00:29:24.987 Brian: I'm, I felt that she was very concerned and not super 00:29:25.017 --> 00:29:26.457 excited with all the answers. 00:29:26.497 --> 00:29:29.827 Then again, I was on YouTube and there were people who were like, wow, she's 00:29:29.827 --> 00:29:34.257 a chill for WordPress and Reddit the exact opposite as what I thought. 00:29:34.557 --> 00:29:40.307 I thought she seemed pretty critical, but about his point there about WP engine. 00:29:40.792 --> 00:29:46.112 And their negative PR campaign, which I don't think anyone sees that. 00:29:46.192 --> 00:29:49.572 I don't know that he sees it, or if he's just saying it as part of like building 00:29:49.572 --> 00:29:54.312 his legal case, or if he truly thinks there's some sort of thing happening from 00:29:54.852 --> 00:29:56.882 WP Engine that I don't think anyone sees. 00:29:56.882 --> 00:29:58.992 I think it's just community hostility. 00:29:58.992 --> 00:30:02.702 That's kind of always there under the surface, but the idea that he goes on 00:30:02.702 --> 00:30:07.962 stage and he talks about all of these things, I think is good, on the other I 00:30:07.962 --> 00:30:12.612 don't know if you have this clip where she talks about the thing where he's 00:30:12.692 --> 00:30:16.922 supposedly hiring Heather Bruner and she's, you know, the CEO of WP Engine, 00:30:16.922 --> 00:30:21.462 and she says that it's not true at all, and they've only published one side 00:30:21.462 --> 00:30:25.682 of the text messages, and he says that there's another side of the text messages, 00:30:25.942 --> 00:30:29.962 but he's not going to show it until it gets forced out in legal discovery, and 00:30:29.962 --> 00:30:33.702 that's a situation where it's such a clear black and white, where one side 00:30:33.702 --> 00:30:39.502 is telling the truth and the other side is not, and they've And he's right that 00:30:39.502 --> 00:30:44.262 they've only published some clips and not his clips, but he could, and he just 00:30:44.272 --> 00:30:46.672 hasn't published the other side of it. 00:30:47.172 --> 00:30:49.362 And so that's a situation where you go, well, I don't know. 00:30:49.362 --> 00:30:53.812 Is it, is it, are you being as transparent because you're doing all these interviews? 00:30:53.812 --> 00:30:54.152 Because. 00:30:54.472 --> 00:30:58.982 You're giving the same answers and here's a situation that is very clear. 00:30:59.092 --> 00:31:02.722 Show us the other side of the texts that they're not showing us and prove that 00:31:02.722 --> 00:31:04.282 you're right and it's not happening. 00:31:04.282 --> 00:31:04.782 So I don't know. 00:31:05.049 --> 00:31:06.719 Matt: they're about to get into that conversation. 00:31:06.869 --> 00:31:09.309 this is another important point where she asked for clarity, 00:31:09.479 --> 00:31:13.019 Connie: but I guess, I mean, in aggregate, is it, is it worth it to even take 00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:15.299 that risk over this battle with them? 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:17.189 And also Matt relatedly, 00:31:17.399 --> 00:31:19.199 Mullenweg: I obviously think it's worth it now. 00:31:19.229 --> 00:31:21.639 And again, if this were happening every year. 00:31:22.454 --> 00:31:23.584 there'd be something wrong with us. 00:31:23.864 --> 00:31:26.684 It's kind of like the old saying, like if you wake up every day, and every day, 00:31:26.684 --> 00:31:28.904 you meet a jerk, maybe you're the jerk. 00:31:28.904 --> 00:31:30.254 He he he. 00:31:30.254 --> 00:31:34.114 But, if you know, every five or ten years, you know, we have 00:31:34.114 --> 00:31:36.584 something like this happen, I think that's probably about normal. 00:31:37.224 --> 00:31:40.124 Connie: I, I guess for the developers out there who want crystal clear 00:31:40.124 --> 00:31:44.894 clarity, and I, and I ask, been asked this before, and I haven't heard, a, 00:31:44.894 --> 00:31:47.514 a, a, really crystal clear answer. 00:31:47.514 --> 00:31:48.754 What is the threshold? 00:31:48.754 --> 00:31:52.389 So, What did they, at what point did they overstep? 00:31:52.389 --> 00:31:57.479 I mean, what kind of guarantee can you offer to other people that this 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:01.439 won't happen if they also become highly successful as WP Engine has become? 00:32:01.899 --> 00:32:03.259 Mullenweg: Well, like I said, there's plenty of other 00:32:03.259 --> 00:32:04.069 businesses, which are just. 00:32:04.430 --> 00:32:06.790 Matt: So that kind of, that touches upon like what we were talking about before, 00:32:06.790 --> 00:32:10.850 like what point do people, realize that they might be in the cross hairs? 00:32:11.300 --> 00:32:12.870 He doesn't really give a great answer here. 00:32:12.890 --> 00:32:15.630 He doesn't really, like, highlight, like, how other people can, you 00:32:15.630 --> 00:32:17.750 know, do this, properly, or whatever. 00:32:19.135 --> 00:32:21.465 Brian: Yeah, I mean, I think she just summarizes it right there. 00:32:21.495 --> 00:32:23.675 You know, yeah, this is the question Everybody wants to know 00:32:23.745 --> 00:32:27.255 and yeah, why why why isn't it answered and he doesn't answer it? 00:32:27.515 --> 00:32:30.950 Mullenweg: No You It's all going through their lawyers, Quinn Emanuel. 00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:36.540 So, when you have nothing to hide, when you, you know, on the right side, I'm 00:32:36.540 --> 00:32:38.480 doing press, I'm doing podcasts, I'm here. 00:32:38.935 --> 00:32:39.385 cetera. 00:32:39.675 --> 00:32:41.405 when you have something to hide, he said the same 00:32:41.405 --> 00:32:41.655 Matt: thing to 00:32:41.655 --> 00:32:43.645 Mullenweg: us, by the way, you have it all go through a 00:32:43.645 --> 00:32:45.445 spokesperson and your lawyers. 00:32:45.455 --> 00:32:45.785 So, 00:32:45.925 --> 00:32:47.545 Connie: well, people choose different strategies. 00:32:47.555 --> 00:32:49.425 I'm thankful you're here to also say 00:32:49.425 --> 00:32:51.175 Mullenweg: from the legal point of view, you know, we had a 00:32:51.205 --> 00:32:53.465 neocatal sign up to lead this case. 00:32:53.845 --> 00:32:55.915 He's one of the top lawyers in the country. 00:32:55.935 --> 00:33:01.315 Supreme Court board was, Obama, and he's actually faced off with 00:33:01.315 --> 00:33:04.135 Quinn Emanuel a number of times as in one every single case. 00:33:04.435 --> 00:33:06.855 So I think from a legal point of view, we feel very, very strong as well. 00:33:07.705 --> 00:33:10.215 Matt: again, like he still feels really positive. 00:33:10.245 --> 00:33:14.505 I know his post that he put out, I can't remember, a couple weeks ago at this 00:33:14.505 --> 00:33:17.455 point, where he said he's going to be a little bit more quiet, which I also 00:33:17.455 --> 00:33:19.595 find a little bit ironic, like he's going to be a little bit more quiet 00:33:19.615 --> 00:33:23.605 on the topic, but then showed up at TechCrunch Disrupt to talk about it. 00:33:23.985 --> 00:33:24.785 whatever, I get it. 00:33:25.185 --> 00:33:25.845 It's a strategy. 00:33:25.845 --> 00:33:26.445 I get it. 00:33:26.475 --> 00:33:28.075 But, you know, I just, I thought it was funny. 00:33:28.775 --> 00:33:32.875 I'd imagine if his legal team was like, yeah, we're in the wrong here 00:33:33.165 --> 00:33:36.095 for the love of God, please stop talking publicly about this stuff. 00:33:36.095 --> 00:33:39.315 They would be saying that to him and he would be taking that advice. 00:33:40.075 --> 00:33:44.155 you know, it's hard, it's hard for me to compartmentalize the, 00:33:44.435 --> 00:33:46.005 or just to have the two lanes. 00:33:46.045 --> 00:33:48.625 That's, that's where I think we all struggle with me personally, 00:33:49.325 --> 00:33:54.155 the lane of automatic versus WP engine and Matt in the community. 00:33:54.520 --> 00:33:59.640 And those two things, you know, parallel to each other as this all 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:03.690 unfolds, like there's, I can totally understand the legal agreement, or the 00:34:03.730 --> 00:34:07.190 legal argument and do all that stuff, I can't wrap my head around why we're 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:08.480 beating up the community so much. 00:34:09.460 --> 00:34:12.910 Brian: Yeah, because I, it is important that he didn't sue WP 00:34:12.910 --> 00:34:15.810 Engine or file a lawsuit, they filed the lawsuit against him. 00:34:16.090 --> 00:34:20.190 So all he did was go on stage, say some things that may or 00:34:20.190 --> 00:34:23.750 may not be like libelous, may or may not have extorted them. 00:34:24.560 --> 00:34:25.990 For revenue. 00:34:26.420 --> 00:34:29.810 I, you know, I don't, I'm just saying these are the charges and then he cut 00:34:29.810 --> 00:34:33.320 off their access to a personal website that he owns that I think he honestly, 00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:37.090 I don't think there's any reason he couldn't have done that personally. 00:34:37.100 --> 00:34:39.610 So, and then they sued him for this stuff. 00:34:39.630 --> 00:34:43.750 And so I think in his mind, he, and I think it really is a 00:34:43.790 --> 00:34:45.180 coin flip for a lot of people. 00:34:45.180 --> 00:34:49.630 Like he's, they, they're kind of have this burden of proof to. 00:34:50.355 --> 00:34:54.705 To show that everything that he did was malicious and for some ulterior purposes, 00:34:55.025 --> 00:34:59.025 because they're the ones filing the lawsuit and he's, all he's doing is just 00:34:59.335 --> 00:35:03.185 not inviting them to his party anymore and, and, and gossiping about them. 00:35:03.485 --> 00:35:03.675 Matt: Yeah. 00:35:03.675 --> 00:35:07.225 Brian: And so, I mean, I, I kind of get why he seems a little confident. 00:35:08.065 --> 00:35:10.765 Matt: I pulled this next clip, just as like an, another interesting 00:35:10.785 --> 00:35:14.235 point, stuff that, I hadn't heard of up until this conversation. 00:35:14.235 --> 00:35:17.605 This is about, the, Alignment offers or realignment offers, I forget what, 00:35:17.645 --> 00:35:20.145 what do you, what do you call the alignment offer, inside automatic. 00:35:20.455 --> 00:35:24.035 Connie: I was going to ask you, so, and then, so subsequently, just to let 00:35:24.035 --> 00:35:27.155 everybody know, so there was a point where you offered people a six month 00:35:27.155 --> 00:35:29.685 salary and then you said, you know what, if you miss the window, I'm going to 00:35:29.695 --> 00:35:33.735 give you one more chance and I'm going to let you take nine months of pay. 00:35:34.450 --> 00:35:34.680 So that 00:35:34.680 --> 00:35:35.250 Mullenweg: was kind of funny. 00:35:35.250 --> 00:35:38.770 So even after this six month buyout, we had a leaker of the company. 00:35:39.120 --> 00:35:42.160 So someone who was taking screenshots of like internal 00:35:42.180 --> 00:35:43.540 private stuff and leaking it. 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:46.960 So, I know you love leakers, but it's kind of breaks the trust. 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:51.030 We have a very high transparency environment at, at automatic where 00:35:51.270 --> 00:35:53.590 Basically everything, everyone can say everything, all the revenue 00:35:53.590 --> 00:35:55.400 numbers, every, pretty much everything. 00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.150 So, you know, someone breaking their confidentiality agreement 00:35:59.180 --> 00:36:00.260 is really, really tough. 00:36:00.670 --> 00:36:03.240 So I created this second buyout, basically just for the leaker. 00:36:03.570 --> 00:36:05.540 I said, all right, you know, it was a much shorter window. 00:36:05.540 --> 00:36:09.410 It was like a four or five hour window and it was nine months of payouts. 00:36:10.460 --> 00:36:11.150 And it was kind of funny. 00:36:11.150 --> 00:36:16.110 The leaker actually got in touch in the first hour and they confessed actually. 00:36:16.620 --> 00:36:17.570 And I said, you know what? 00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:18.250 Great. 00:36:19.425 --> 00:36:21.335 I actually have incredible respect for this person. 00:36:21.745 --> 00:36:24.185 Here's the nine months and, Yeah, here you go. 00:36:24.705 --> 00:36:28.575 Connie: So all together I saw a report that the six month buyout, around 8. 00:36:28.575 --> 00:36:30.145 3 percent of people. 00:36:30.145 --> 00:36:30.785 159 00:36:30.785 --> 00:36:31.055 Mullenweg: people. 00:36:31.055 --> 00:36:31.355 Yeah. 00:36:31.495 --> 00:36:32.655 Connie: And, and how many more? 00:36:32.655 --> 00:36:35.615 Was it just the leaker who took the nine month deal or I'm assuming more? 00:36:35.635 --> 00:36:35.775 So 00:36:35.775 --> 00:36:39.255 Mullenweg: the second deal, so the first deal, we cut off your access the same day. 00:36:39.665 --> 00:36:43.115 The second deal we said, Hey, 159 left. 00:36:43.115 --> 00:36:45.845 We're actually, we've actually seen a huge boost in business, so 00:36:45.845 --> 00:36:47.195 we're hiring as fast as we can. 00:36:47.435 --> 00:36:49.715 So for the second deal, you know, if you're the leaker. 00:36:50.415 --> 00:36:53.535 We'll cut off access immediately, but for others, we might ask them 00:36:53.535 --> 00:36:56.905 to stay on, you know, possibly until next year, just because 00:36:56.905 --> 00:36:58.135 we're very short staffed right now. 00:36:58.215 --> 00:36:59.515 So we kind of need to hire. 00:36:59.815 --> 00:37:01.475 So, there were some other people that have taken it. 00:37:01.865 --> 00:37:04.045 Our, our employee count is actually totally public. 00:37:04.046 --> 00:37:05.675 So 00:37:07.055 --> 00:37:09.585 Matt: just a lot, like a lot of things there. 00:37:09.585 --> 00:37:15.145 Like the nine month deal was really to unearth the leaker, which I don't. 00:37:15.196 --> 00:37:18.155 I don't see how that worked. 00:37:18.185 --> 00:37:19.445 Like that was the cheese. 00:37:19.445 --> 00:37:21.795 The mouse went after like the, there was a 00:37:21.805 --> 00:37:24.985 Brian: stick, it was a carrot and a stick because the, in his post 00:37:24.985 --> 00:37:27.775 he says, and if you don't quit, here's what's going to happen. 00:37:27.825 --> 00:37:28.195 So, 00:37:28.715 --> 00:37:29.785 Matt: Oh, right, right. 00:37:29.785 --> 00:37:31.755 In the post that he, that, that he put out about it. 00:37:31.875 --> 00:37:32.165 Yeah. 00:37:32.195 --> 00:37:32.625 Yeah. 00:37:32.995 --> 00:37:33.875 yes, that's right. 00:37:34.035 --> 00:37:38.255 So there was that, coming up with that plan to, to get the, get to get the 00:37:38.255 --> 00:37:42.385 leaker and then others who opted into it. 00:37:42.835 --> 00:37:47.925 It wasn't going to be so immediate, which kind of feels weird to you're 00:37:47.925 --> 00:37:50.975 going to get your nine months, but you got to hang out until potentially next 00:37:50.975 --> 00:37:57.595 year, slightly Awkward, you know, I think to set that tone, to be in the 00:37:57.595 --> 00:38:00.115 person in the, in the meeting, knowing you're going to take your nine months, 00:38:00.115 --> 00:38:01.345 but you had to wait, wait around. 00:38:01.875 --> 00:38:07.025 business is a booming apparently, and, you got to hire as fast as possible. 00:38:07.265 --> 00:38:08.635 so just a lot. 00:38:09.795 --> 00:38:11.195 Yeah, which a lot happening 00:38:11.605 --> 00:38:14.485 Brian: because then later, I think it's later, he says that, they 00:38:14.485 --> 00:38:16.355 were a little overstaffed, right? 00:38:16.395 --> 00:38:20.655 And that part of it was that he wanted to trim down on the staff and also, which 00:38:20.665 --> 00:38:22.115 I thought was a very interesting thing. 00:38:22.640 --> 00:38:27.310 Where he says that he would actually thinks that they could do more revenue 00:38:27.600 --> 00:38:30.150 and maybe even cut the staff down further. 00:38:30.250 --> 00:38:30.530 Yep. 00:38:30.660 --> 00:38:33.550 Thanks to things like AI and stuff, which obviously I would never want to 00:38:33.550 --> 00:38:36.770 hear my boss saying, Hey, I actually think that I'm going to need a lot 00:38:36.770 --> 00:38:38.220 less of you in the next few years. 00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:41.570 So, stick around until I can replace you. 00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:46.840 Matt: here's one of the, the chaos theories of, what happened early on, 00:38:46.900 --> 00:38:53.710 that potentially all of this was to drive down valuation of WP Engine 00:38:53.890 --> 00:38:55.360 so Automattic could acquire it. 00:38:56.045 --> 00:38:57.915 let's go with some, great questions from Connie. 00:38:58.295 --> 00:39:02.285 Connie: I did see that BlackRock had marked down a value of its 00:39:02.285 --> 00:39:06.145 holdings to half of that amount essentially back in March. 00:39:06.375 --> 00:39:10.305 So there have been theories that this whole fight with WordPress was 00:39:10.305 --> 00:39:13.555 sort of driven by automatic being in some sort of state of duress, 00:39:13.985 --> 00:39:18.045 wanting to drive down the value of, of WP Engine so you could acquire it. 00:39:18.045 --> 00:39:22.695 So do you want to sort of, can you tell me about your company's financial 00:39:22.695 --> 00:39:24.335 health and also if there is any. 00:39:24.975 --> 00:39:27.945 Truth to your potentially wanting to acquire this company. 00:39:28.055 --> 00:39:28.195 Mullenweg: Yeah. 00:39:28.195 --> 00:39:29.005 What can I say about that? 00:39:29.005 --> 00:39:30.915 That we've said publicly, half a billion in revenue. 00:39:31.365 --> 00:39:35.325 we haven't raised any primary capital and have no plans to, so, you know, 00:39:35.325 --> 00:39:38.855 running a break even or better and, hiring aggressively and growing. 00:39:39.085 --> 00:39:39.765 Very fast. 00:39:39.775 --> 00:39:40.095 So, 00:39:41.465 --> 00:39:43.125 Connie: and what about WP Engine? 00:39:43.325 --> 00:39:48.635 I mean, that was a great non answer here today and in text and tweets about how 00:39:48.635 --> 00:39:52.295 people are leaving WP Engine and it's probably not worth what it was worth 00:39:52.295 --> 00:39:55.245 when Silver Lake, invested and, you know, 00:39:55.245 --> 00:39:57.625 Mullenweg: it's, it's been mildly rumored that they were shopping around and trying 00:39:57.625 --> 00:39:59.465 to sell WP Engine earlier in the year. 00:39:59.645 --> 00:40:01.605 I'm trying to get a 2 billion valuation. 00:40:02.095 --> 00:40:03.425 they obviously weren't able to do that. 00:40:03.865 --> 00:40:06.345 And you know, I talked to one of the private equity. 00:40:06.355 --> 00:40:06.595 First 00:40:06.595 --> 00:40:09.175 Matt: time I heard that 2 billion valuation being shopped around. 00:40:09.395 --> 00:40:10.625 Mullenweg: I heard it shopped around, 00:40:10.625 --> 00:40:11.475 Matt: but not 2 billion. 00:40:11.835 --> 00:40:14.075 Mullenweg: And they said, part of the reason they didn't buy it is they're 00:40:14.075 --> 00:40:17.485 like, well, they don't have any IP and what's going on with this trademark. 00:40:17.485 --> 00:40:18.575 They don't have a trademark license. 00:40:18.895 --> 00:40:20.625 So I think that's part of what's happening. 00:40:21.005 --> 00:40:22.685 You know, I'm actually very surprised that Silver Lake hasn't 00:40:22.685 --> 00:40:24.035 come back to the negotiating table. 00:40:24.125 --> 00:40:25.155 Matt: Is there IP in 00:40:25.155 --> 00:40:26.085 Brian: open source world? 00:40:27.725 --> 00:40:30.085 I guess just the trademark is what he means. 00:40:30.605 --> 00:40:35.065 Mullenweg: Because I do feel like if, you know, if I were valuing 00:40:35.165 --> 00:40:38.555 WP Engine, it would be under their revenue right now, you know, because 00:40:38.555 --> 00:40:40.475 they're, they're not growing anymore. 00:40:40.885 --> 00:40:44.845 they're in this legal battle, which I think they're going to lose and, yeah, 00:40:44.965 --> 00:40:46.085 they're losing a lot of customers. 00:40:46.185 --> 00:40:47.675 So we'll see what happens. 00:40:47.935 --> 00:40:51.095 They're either going to, you know, like I said, we're at war with them 00:40:51.095 --> 00:40:53.825 or they're going to go brick by brick and take us and other companies, take 00:40:53.825 --> 00:40:55.585 every single one of our customers or. 00:40:55.815 --> 00:40:57.325 Matt: That's a pretty scary statement. 00:40:57.645 --> 00:41:00.155 Mullenweg: yeah, hopefully if they, they could end this all tomorrow, 00:41:00.215 --> 00:41:03.875 but happily, negotiate, you know, Heather, if you're watching this, like 00:41:04.025 --> 00:41:04.655 Matt: happy to talk, 00:41:04.665 --> 00:41:05.345 Mullenweg: you know, to reach me. 00:41:06.275 --> 00:41:10.520 Matt: And it was at this point, I'm just like, This is where I really 00:41:10.520 --> 00:41:15.170 started to feel like this is all just to get to the negotiation table. 00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:17.790 And it's just a ton of cannon fodder. 00:41:18.560 --> 00:41:25.900 You know, this is just really like the dark side of, of business and, 00:41:25.950 --> 00:41:29.220 really starting to feel the weight of that, I guess the backdrop of 00:41:29.220 --> 00:41:30.750 the, of the WordPress community. 00:41:31.100 --> 00:41:34.470 I feel like this is still him saying, come to the negotiation table. 00:41:34.470 --> 00:41:35.520 We can figure something out. 00:41:36.190 --> 00:41:38.970 And it's just, who's going to, who's going to fold first. 00:41:39.040 --> 00:41:40.920 Neither one of them seem like they want to do though. 00:41:40.930 --> 00:41:42.960 He's publicly saying that he could do it. 00:41:43.300 --> 00:41:47.470 And it's just like, man, if, if all of this is just to get to 00:41:47.470 --> 00:41:51.570 that, if all of this is at a buy WP engine, damn, that's going to feel. 00:41:53.135 --> 00:41:58.015 Incredibly, incredibly, difficult for the community to swallow, but also 00:41:58.015 --> 00:42:02.335 it's just like, doing all of this just to get that 3% at the end of the day. 00:42:02.425 --> 00:42:05.725 Like, if that, you know, you're gonna negotiate that 8%, what are 00:42:05.725 --> 00:42:07.615 you gonna settle for one, two, 3%? 00:42:07.615 --> 00:42:08.365 Like, what's the number? 00:42:08.365 --> 00:42:09.810 It's, it's, it's so hard. 00:42:10.295 --> 00:42:10.775 yeah. 00:42:11.755 --> 00:42:15.645 , Brian: I mean, yeah, I, I just. 00:42:15.935 --> 00:42:19.705 If, if there was that answer to that first question, the be crystal clear 00:42:19.705 --> 00:42:25.865 about what you're expecting from large companies, I think that would, I think 00:42:25.865 --> 00:42:27.145 most people would be on his side. 00:42:27.145 --> 00:42:28.845 They say, okay, well, he laid out the line. 00:42:29.005 --> 00:42:29.885 This is what it is. 00:42:29.915 --> 00:42:30.405 Agree with it. 00:42:30.405 --> 00:42:31.315 Don't agree with it. 00:42:31.995 --> 00:42:36.055 so obviously even him taking, trying to, I mean, I don't want him to take over 00:42:36.265 --> 00:42:39.445 WPNG, I don't know that I think automatic is going to do a better job than silver, 00:42:39.445 --> 00:42:44.185 like at this point, but the other piece is just, It doesn't like, I understand 00:42:44.185 --> 00:42:48.475 that all of this is to put a ton of pressure on WP engine and to really break 00:42:48.475 --> 00:42:52.475 them down, steal their plugins, fork their code, cut them off, do all, you 00:42:52.475 --> 00:42:56.195 know, slander them, do all these things, trying to break them down to a point 00:42:56.205 --> 00:42:59.915 where, you know, Silverlake just wants to pull out and just drop the asset. 00:43:00.315 --> 00:43:04.565 I just, like you said before, it doesn't make sense what that has anything to do 00:43:04.825 --> 00:43:09.375 with the interactions on social media and in Slack with contributors and 00:43:09.375 --> 00:43:10.905 community members, like I just don't. 00:43:11.700 --> 00:43:15.030 get the, how the two have to be related. 00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:17.710 Like why, why we have to get one with the other? 00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:20.200 Why can't you just do the one and not the other? 00:43:21.140 --> 00:43:23.560 Matt: Speeding this process up a bit, they started talking about like what's, 00:43:23.590 --> 00:43:25.480 what would happen through this injunction. 00:43:25.510 --> 00:43:29.460 this is where he talks about, getting access back to WordPress. 00:43:29.460 --> 00:43:29.770 org. 00:43:30.210 --> 00:43:30.480 Yeah. 00:43:30.510 --> 00:43:31.120 Let's have a listen. 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:34.070 Mullenweg: And, you know, if we lose the injection, what happens? 00:43:34.570 --> 00:43:37.200 Well, we have to go back to the state of what they were doing beforehand 00:43:37.300 --> 00:43:38.270 where they access wordpress. 00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:38.650 org. 00:43:38.650 --> 00:43:39.870 So that's fine. 00:43:39.871 --> 00:43:41.230 I mean, 00:43:41.231 --> 00:43:43.840 Matt: I thought that was part of the problem. 00:43:44.170 --> 00:43:47.150 I thought the fact that they had access to wordpress. 00:43:47.150 --> 00:43:49.840 org was part of the problem and he's just like, yeah, that's fine 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.660 if they get access to it back. 00:43:50.660 --> 00:43:53.720 Does that mean they get ACF back on wordpress. 00:43:53.720 --> 00:43:55.630 org or they can just use the the mirror? 00:43:55.640 --> 00:43:57.670 Like, so difficult to understand. 00:43:58.023 --> 00:44:02.248 And then here's the part where We start to realize that this could take years. 00:44:02.888 --> 00:44:06.378 Mullenweg: Yeah, so, you know, the estimates I've heard from, from Neil 00:44:06.378 --> 00:44:10.878 and others is that, you know, worst case scenario, if we lost everything, it would 00:44:10.888 --> 00:44:13.631 be kind of happening in 2026 or 2027. 00:44:13.631 --> 00:44:14.768 Connie: Wait, wait, say that again? 00:44:15.228 --> 00:44:18.308 If you lost the battle, it would take until 2026 to resolve? 00:44:18.548 --> 00:44:21.688 Mullenweg: Yeah, if it goes to jury and everything like that, yeah. 00:44:23.233 --> 00:44:24.693 That's just how the legal system works. 00:44:24.703 --> 00:44:26.493 If you look at the legal cases, they take a very long time. 00:44:26.523 --> 00:44:31.693 Connie: What do you do, again, I don't, I can't sort of emphasize enough how much 00:44:31.883 --> 00:44:34.233 animus toward you I'm seeing out there. 00:44:35.953 --> 00:44:36.573 And also loss of 00:44:36.683 --> 00:44:38.573 Mullenweg: support, but you know, we notice the negative a little more. 00:44:38.593 --> 00:44:38.843 Yes, 00:44:39.003 --> 00:44:44.733 Connie: yes, but, but, but really, I mean, it seems really, I, it's just so 00:44:44.733 --> 00:44:47.483 curious to me that it would be worth it to you to pursue this for two years. 00:44:47.523 --> 00:44:50.383 I guess in the meantime, how do you manage? 00:44:50.858 --> 00:44:54.878 Sort of, you know, that community that's very frustrated with you, with, with, 00:44:55.078 --> 00:44:59.578 with handling this lawsuit and, and pushing Automatic Forward for the next 00:44:59.578 --> 00:44:59.698 Mullenweg: couple of years. 00:44:59.698 --> 00:45:01.008 Well, we're trying to do some press, right? 00:45:01.018 --> 00:45:04.438 So, you know, which hopefully translates some of the story. 00:45:04.788 --> 00:45:08.098 there's actually going to be some, some cover magazine articles coming 00:45:08.098 --> 00:45:09.168 out, which is pretty exciting. 00:45:09.688 --> 00:45:10.508 Matt: It's so tough. 00:45:11.308 --> 00:45:16.388 It's so absolutely difficult, to hear that answer to, to once again, 00:45:16.398 --> 00:45:20.348 putting myself in her shoes to how do you ask somebody this question? 00:45:20.408 --> 00:45:23.438 Like, look what you're doing to all of these people because of this. 00:45:23.458 --> 00:45:25.388 And now you want to take it for years. 00:45:25.648 --> 00:45:27.668 Like, can you mentally handle that? 00:45:27.668 --> 00:45:28.368 Number one. 00:45:28.558 --> 00:45:31.338 Is it worth it business wise and financially? 00:45:31.578 --> 00:45:34.988 And then number three, like you're doing this all at the cost of this community. 00:45:35.298 --> 00:45:37.808 Like, why is this happening? 00:45:38.178 --> 00:45:42.198 is the community stuff just the, the theater of the courts where you need 00:45:42.198 --> 00:45:44.398 to say, I'm blocking all these people. 00:45:44.398 --> 00:45:45.538 Look at all these people attacking me. 00:45:45.538 --> 00:45:49.248 Hundreds of hundreds or thousands of people I've had to block for air quotes 00:45:49.308 --> 00:45:53.648 attacking me just to build like that long laundry list to show the court 00:45:53.648 --> 00:45:54.878 and say, this is what's happening. 00:45:55.418 --> 00:45:56.578 all of this is worth it. 00:45:57.733 --> 00:45:59.303 Even she's struggling with it. 00:45:59.883 --> 00:46:03.923 and then this was funny where he asked folks to, raise your hand. 00:46:04.253 --> 00:46:07.603 if you think WP Engine is WordPress, this was, this was kind of funny. 00:46:07.613 --> 00:46:09.983 And I love the little comment she threw it throws in 00:46:10.403 --> 00:46:12.423 Mullenweg: those of you who knew WP Engine before. 00:46:12.673 --> 00:46:15.363 did anyone think it was like officially associated with WordPress? 00:46:16.388 --> 00:46:16.728 Raise your hand. 00:46:17.988 --> 00:46:18.228 Yeah. 00:46:18.628 --> 00:46:18.918 So. 00:46:19.188 --> 00:46:19.608 Not that many. 00:46:19.618 --> 00:46:20.138 At the legal. 00:46:20.618 --> 00:46:21.858 Matt: She says not that many. 00:46:21.858 --> 00:46:22.498 Not that much. 00:46:22.898 --> 00:46:24.378 Because you can't see the crowd. 00:46:24.688 --> 00:46:26.038 because of the camera angle. 00:46:26.418 --> 00:46:31.058 And it's just like, damn man, like this is, this just feels like you're 00:46:31.058 --> 00:46:35.998 trying to illustrate this whole thing because somebody, because it just has a 00:46:35.998 --> 00:46:38.848 tactic in this whole legal, legal bout. 00:46:38.848 --> 00:46:39.268 Brian: Yeah. 00:46:40.543 --> 00:46:44.963 I mean, I think she, I think she did a really good interview overall. 00:46:45.153 --> 00:46:47.343 I think she pushed enough. 00:46:47.363 --> 00:46:49.803 You're like, you can't, you can't be hostile in an interview. 00:46:50.213 --> 00:46:54.313 You can, once somebody makes it clear, they're not going to answer a question. 00:46:54.333 --> 00:46:56.843 There's really no use just circling that question. 00:46:57.173 --> 00:47:02.403 he obviously is an extremely smart person and he has answers and he knows 00:47:02.403 --> 00:47:04.713 where he's going with the conversation. 00:47:04.783 --> 00:47:06.953 And he, this is all part of his strategy. 00:47:07.073 --> 00:47:10.673 So I guess kudos to both of them. 00:47:10.993 --> 00:47:11.863 I was, I'll be honest. 00:47:11.893 --> 00:47:12.903 I was not expecting that. 00:47:12.933 --> 00:47:15.843 I did not think the goal of the tech crunch thing was going, I thought it 00:47:15.843 --> 00:47:20.923 was going to be like, look at this mat, look at automatic, like, I did 00:47:20.923 --> 00:47:25.823 not think WP Engine was going to be the exact focus of it as like a hard 00:47:25.823 --> 00:47:30.708 hitting interview at like a care swisher style, you know, pushback. 00:47:30.738 --> 00:47:34.048 So I, you know, kudos to him for agreeing to it and for her 00:47:34.048 --> 00:47:37.218 pulling off what I thought was really a well balanced interview. 00:47:37.728 --> 00:47:39.278 Matt: Yeah, 100 percent agree. 00:47:39.278 --> 00:47:42.558 I also thought it was just going to be, you know, just, you know, a 00:47:42.558 --> 00:47:45.978 marketing sort of session just to kind of like have a little distraction, 00:47:45.978 --> 00:47:48.328 especially after what he blogged about, about not talking about it. 00:47:48.328 --> 00:47:52.238 But yeah, it was squarely about the fiasco. 00:47:52.528 --> 00:47:55.498 So, Want to listen to the whole episode, I'll link that in the show notes. 00:47:55.498 --> 00:47:59.958 Whoever you're listening or watching this, still no idea, what's 00:47:59.958 --> 00:48:01.618 happening, with, with WordPress. 00:48:01.618 --> 00:48:04.278 I've been asking the question, like, where are we rallying? 00:48:04.658 --> 00:48:06.208 I don't even have an answer for that. 00:48:06.488 --> 00:48:07.208 right now. 00:48:07.288 --> 00:48:08.568 ponder that question. 00:48:08.838 --> 00:48:10.008 Let me know what you think. 00:48:10.308 --> 00:48:12.878 in the world of WordPress, where can we rally? 00:48:12.878 --> 00:48:16.748 Like, how do we continue to put WordPress in a positive light as 00:48:16.748 --> 00:48:20.458 a piece of software, as a tool, as a way to publish as a community? 00:48:20.758 --> 00:48:25.868 Where do we rally if it's not going to be at a WordCamp or it's not going 00:48:25.868 --> 00:48:29.028 to be in the WordPress Slack because we literally don't have access to it? 00:48:29.408 --> 00:48:30.078 Where do we go? 00:48:30.138 --> 00:48:31.388 How do we spin these things up? 00:48:31.728 --> 00:48:35.088 you know, to keep, to keep things going in a positive direction. 00:48:35.928 --> 00:48:38.168 Brian, where can folks find you to say thanks? 00:48:38.598 --> 00:48:39.248 Brian: briancords. 00:48:39.248 --> 00:48:43.908 com is where I've been writing or kind of been avoiding writing at this point. 00:48:44.178 --> 00:48:48.768 And, mostly YouTube and Twitter are where I hang out and interact and 00:48:48.768 --> 00:48:50.628 all the various Slack groups as well. 00:48:51.468 --> 00:48:52.558 Matt: The WP Minute, the wpminute. 00:48:52.918 --> 00:48:55.168 com slash subscribe to stay connected. 00:48:55.498 --> 00:48:57.728 We'll see you in the next episode.