WEBVTT 00:00:01.530 --> 00:00:03.048 Susannah de Jager: Welcome to Oxford+. 00:00:03.050 --> 00:00:06.690 The podcast series for innovators and investors brought to you in 00:00:06.690 --> 00:00:08.333 partnership with Mishcon de Reya. 00:00:08.779 --> 00:00:12.349 Hi, I'm Susannah de Jager and I'm the host of Oxford Plus. 00:00:12.949 --> 00:00:14.629 My guest today is Pete Davies. 00:00:15.139 --> 00:00:17.964 Pete is Head of Developed Market Strategy at Lansdowne Partners, 00:00:18.724 --> 00:00:20.464 a firm he joined in 2001. 00:00:21.274 --> 00:00:25.204 Pete is that rare investor who has kept his approach consistent while 00:00:25.204 --> 00:00:27.334 refusing to be defined by market terms. 00:00:27.934 --> 00:00:32.284 A strength demonstrated in the hedge fund strategy that for many years was a sector 00:00:32.284 --> 00:00:37.554 defining long short fund and the refocus of the firm to long only and venture 00:00:37.554 --> 00:00:41.124 capital based upon the opportunities identified by Pete and the team. 00:00:42.409 --> 00:00:46.369 In UK venture, he has been a pioneer creating and co-founding a number of 00:00:46.369 --> 00:00:50.809 venture businesses, most notably for this podcast, Oxford Science Enterprises, 00:00:51.139 --> 00:00:54.559 the investment company that develops and advises the commercialization of 00:00:54.559 --> 00:00:56.509 the IP of the University of Oxford. 00:00:57.319 --> 00:01:00.989 He has also been a governor of the Wellcome Trust and a leading voice 00:01:01.199 --> 00:01:05.489 in the UK private public market conversations actioning the much 00:01:05.489 --> 00:01:07.229 needed call for scale up capital. 00:01:07.476 --> 00:01:10.926 Over the last four years, I've had the privilege to discuss the UK scale up 00:01:10.926 --> 00:01:14.466 capital conundrum with Pete at various intervals, and I'm very much looking 00:01:14.466 --> 00:01:16.326 forward to this latest update today. 00:01:16.635 --> 00:01:17.985 He brings two perspectives. 00:01:18.195 --> 00:01:22.635 First, as an asset manager launching a new strategy into the venture space, but 00:01:22.635 --> 00:01:27.495 also as somebody passionate about the broader UK opportunity and Oxford itself. 00:01:28.290 --> 00:01:30.720 Pete, thank you so much for joining today. 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:32.320 Pete Davies: My pleasure. 00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:33.225 Very much looking forward to. 00:01:34.750 --> 00:01:37.600 Susannah de Jager: You were a student at Oxford, and then you started your 00:01:37.600 --> 00:01:41.710 career in listed asset management at Mercury Asset Management. 00:01:42.670 --> 00:01:48.250 What made you turn back towards Oxford and think, I want to use my 00:01:48.250 --> 00:01:50.758 investor lens at the university. 00:01:51.180 --> 00:01:54.100 Pete Davies: I think it was fairly routine actually in that, subsequently thought 00:01:54.100 --> 00:01:57.250 about it a bit more in with a strategy, but at the time I think it was more just 00:01:57.250 --> 00:01:58.840 looking for investment opportunities. 00:01:59.350 --> 00:02:04.540 I mean, my broad view had been for a while the UK is very unusual in having lots of 00:02:04.540 --> 00:02:10.580 its most relevant, world-class assets, not necessarily being thought of or being 00:02:10.580 --> 00:02:15.080 either companies or being thought of as economic ones and probably the first of 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.517 those was actually football clubs and that probably taught me the idea that one can 00:02:19.937 --> 00:02:25.904 invest in these world class assets, and so from there I kind of looked at individual 00:02:25.904 --> 00:02:28.034 companies within the Oxford ecosystem. 00:02:28.454 --> 00:02:30.854 You know, obviously IP Group was a pioneer in this, that I was 00:02:30.914 --> 00:02:33.854 partially involved with, and it just gradually grew from there. 00:02:33.904 --> 00:02:35.734 There was very little of a plan, I'm afraid 00:02:37.129 --> 00:02:39.229 Susannah de Jager: No, but that's often the way it really happens in 00:02:39.229 --> 00:02:43.859 reality and you talked there about IP Group, and obviously they were one 00:02:43.859 --> 00:02:45.389 of the first movers in this space. 00:02:45.539 --> 00:02:47.789 You were obviously an early investor in that company. 00:02:48.629 --> 00:02:52.199 How did it evolve from that to the germination of the plan 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:53.939 for Oxford Science Enterprises? 00:02:54.894 --> 00:02:57.554 Pete Davies: Pretty linearly and I should give enormous credit here to 00:02:57.554 --> 00:03:03.314 Graham Richards who sadly passed away recently, who frankly without whom the 00:03:03.314 --> 00:03:06.434 IP Group relationship with the chemistry department wouldn't have happened, 00:03:07.304 --> 00:03:10.169 which in turn enabled the OSE agreement. 00:03:10.259 --> 00:03:13.469 I mean, it was pretty similar to a publishing deal of an advance from 00:03:13.469 --> 00:03:17.399 IP Group to the chemistry department to build a facility in return 00:03:17.399 --> 00:03:21.142 for a partnership around building companies out of that facility. 00:03:21.601 --> 00:03:25.827 That deal was, as I say, led by Graham and Dave Norwood, and then OSE flowed 00:03:25.827 --> 00:03:29.157 very linearly from that because at the point of time where that deal 00:03:29.157 --> 00:03:32.717 was beginning to come towards its end the OSE deal was a replication of 00:03:32.717 --> 00:03:35.657 the IP group deal with the chemistry department across a broader remit. 00:03:35.657 --> 00:03:39.697 That deal was coming towards the end and lots of versions of how it could have 00:03:39.697 --> 00:03:42.667 been structured, but the basic structure was pretty much in place already. 00:03:43.337 --> 00:03:45.527 Susannah de Jager: You talked there about how it felt very natural in the 00:03:45.527 --> 00:03:50.793 evolution in the space from football clubs looking at the IP Group and into OSE. 00:03:51.363 --> 00:03:55.533 Is it equally apparent to you, therefore, when you look forward to the next five or 00:03:55.533 --> 00:03:59.013 10 years, how you see that space evolving? 00:03:59.013 --> 00:04:02.264 Or do you see that there are multiple ways that it might play out? 00:04:02.803 --> 00:04:03.643 Pete Davies: That's a great question. 00:04:03.673 --> 00:04:08.324 and I think I should stress that the evolution of structures is very 00:04:08.324 --> 00:04:10.004 different from the evolution of process. 00:04:10.464 --> 00:04:12.894 I think the structural evolution was fairly linear. 00:04:13.144 --> 00:04:16.408 But equally, I think the process of actually converting that into individual 00:04:16.408 --> 00:04:18.808 companies is always very individual. 00:04:18.878 --> 00:04:22.013 I certainly wouldn't want to put a universal way of doing that as 00:04:22.013 --> 00:04:23.753 being something that always works. 00:04:24.123 --> 00:04:26.309 So let's separate out the structures from the process. 00:04:26.409 --> 00:04:29.674 In terms of the structures, I mean, I think my hope would be that the 00:04:29.674 --> 00:04:32.254 structures were there to accelerate to a point where you don't need the 00:04:32.254 --> 00:04:33.304 structures, if you see what I mean. 00:04:33.634 --> 00:04:36.814 I'm not sure exactly where we get to, but you know, I think the dream for all 00:04:36.814 --> 00:04:40.384 of us would be an ecosystem with so many individual parts, all of whom are doing 00:04:40.384 --> 00:04:43.079 interesting things and fresh approaches. 00:04:43.254 --> 00:04:45.574 You know, there'll be lots of successful companies including OSE 00:04:45.594 --> 00:04:47.184 I'm sure within that ecosystem. 00:04:47.184 --> 00:04:49.974 But I think the idea of an external structure for that 00:04:49.974 --> 00:04:51.354 hopefully will prove necessary. 00:04:51.854 --> 00:04:56.054 I think the second aspect I'd say is more around how the companies originate. 00:04:56.684 --> 00:05:02.021 One thing that I've always hoped would be, broadly speaking, the process of 00:05:02.021 --> 00:05:07.511 originating companies has been academic X has done piece of work that they think 00:05:07.511 --> 00:05:12.071 is commercially relevant and someone, be it the Tech Translation Office, or OSE 00:05:12.071 --> 00:05:16.541 or anyone else, essentially is presented with that business model and decides 00:05:16.541 --> 00:05:18.341 whether to invest and how to amplify that. 00:05:18.891 --> 00:05:22.911 The goal which we're at a sort of halfway stage at, I think within OSE, within 00:05:22.911 --> 00:05:27.141 the use of entrepreneurs in residence ought to be much more that there's an 00:05:27.141 --> 00:05:30.741 expertise within the academic community and a problem that someone externally 00:05:30.741 --> 00:05:35.081 is trying to solve and actually the process of, I wouldn't even call it 00:05:35.081 --> 00:05:39.431 packaging, but the process of turning the expertise into a solution for the 00:05:39.431 --> 00:05:44.481 problem is much more a questioning between investors and academics rather than 00:05:45.081 --> 00:05:46.851 something just coming from the academics. 00:05:46.851 --> 00:05:49.761 So I think that's the other thing I would say that will change over time 00:05:50.271 --> 00:05:54.846 is I suspect more and more it'll be problem driven rather than IP 00:05:54.846 --> 00:05:56.994 driven companies being sorted out. 00:05:57.504 --> 00:06:02.074 And then the third thing I think would be also one shifts from just academic 00:06:02.074 --> 00:06:03.994 IP to the broad expertise of Oxford. 00:06:04.204 --> 00:06:06.064 I mean, including the undergraduate community. 00:06:06.701 --> 00:06:09.281 View the ecosystem as creating companies across the watch. 00:06:09.471 --> 00:06:12.861 Not just from very deep academic technology, but from all the 00:06:12.861 --> 00:06:15.654 innovation and creativity that comes from the ecosystem. 00:06:15.654 --> 00:06:18.174 So those three would be my main structural things. 00:06:18.894 --> 00:06:21.054 Susannah de Jager: I think it's really interesting that you've identified there 00:06:21.054 --> 00:06:26.364 that shift from push effectively from the academic to more of a pull from industry, 00:06:26.364 --> 00:06:28.134 business, and that collaboration. 00:06:28.854 --> 00:06:32.214 Obviously Oxford itself is a crucible of learning innovation. 00:06:32.814 --> 00:06:36.714 But sometimes, and I think that this almost speaks to some of the differences 00:06:36.714 --> 00:06:40.254 that are observed, it's not compared still that favorably with Silicon Valley. 00:06:40.314 --> 00:06:43.844 Which is seen as more outward looking in this regard. 00:06:44.324 --> 00:06:47.959 I'd love to know what these specific areas you are, where you think 00:06:48.139 --> 00:06:51.769 actually that's a bit overplayed and Oxford really is excelling because 00:06:52.129 --> 00:06:55.369 I certainly perceive those, but you are obviously investing in them. 00:06:56.009 --> 00:06:58.819 Pete Davies: I think there's definitely a generational shift going 00:06:58.819 --> 00:07:01.169 on amongst the academic community. 00:07:01.469 --> 00:07:03.959 I think that was already happening and probably was a precondition 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:07.689 of setting up things like OSE, led by the likes of Graham, et cetera. 00:07:07.909 --> 00:07:09.409 But now it's pretty universal, I think. 00:07:09.409 --> 00:07:13.069 I think few people who go into academia think of themselves as solely 00:07:13.069 --> 00:07:17.814 academics and I think maybe the UK's 5, 10 years behind America in that, 00:07:17.814 --> 00:07:19.224 but it definitely doesn't feel it now. 00:07:19.644 --> 00:07:21.564 And then I think the other thing is just time. 00:07:21.591 --> 00:07:23.691 You know, you look back at the formation of Silicon Valley, it 00:07:23.691 --> 00:07:27.531 took three or four generations of success and the reinvestment of both 00:07:27.531 --> 00:07:30.411 the financial and the intellectual capital to get to where it is now. 00:07:31.041 --> 00:07:36.601 Oxford is probably in generation one or two of that, and each generation does 00:07:36.601 --> 00:07:39.811 things better than the prior generation and certainly, I'm sure the people who 00:07:39.811 --> 00:07:44.101 look at what we were doing 10, 15 years ago in 20 years time will think that 00:07:44.101 --> 00:07:47.541 we were terribly amateurish about it and will have thought of lots of ways 00:07:47.541 --> 00:07:48.591 of doing it that we never thought of. 00:07:49.295 --> 00:07:51.125 Susannah de Jager: Going into some specifics, you touched 00:07:51.125 --> 00:07:53.075 there upon quantum computing. 00:07:53.362 --> 00:07:56.932 I'd love to just touch on some of the specific opportunities both 00:07:56.932 --> 00:08:00.400 that you've had recently, but also to give some color to what you 00:08:00.400 --> 00:08:01.840 see is coming down the pipeline. 00:08:02.190 --> 00:08:04.680 Pete Davies: Yeah, you described push a moment ago, and I 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:05.340 definitely agree with that. 00:08:05.340 --> 00:08:10.200 I think, one learning from this that I think one could apply also to some 00:08:10.200 --> 00:08:13.770 of the genomic expertise that we have and some of the healthcare data, 00:08:13.770 --> 00:08:17.475 and I'm sure others is that, had the National Quantum Institute not been 00:08:17.475 --> 00:08:21.675 funded in Oxford, I doubt we would have the opportunity we have today. 00:08:22.095 --> 00:08:26.355 I think when one looks at where academic strengths are formed, I think those sort 00:08:26.355 --> 00:08:30.495 of institutions have got a very high hit rate and probably represent the best 00:08:30.495 --> 00:08:34.005 value for money and the Quantum Institute would be one great example of that. 00:08:34.005 --> 00:08:40.050 I know for instance, Chris Ballance, the CEO of Oxford Ionics explicitly will 00:08:40.050 --> 00:08:42.690 say that had it not been for that, he would've been working in Switzerland. 00:08:43.256 --> 00:08:49.466 I think going to how academia becomes more problem driven, I think that 00:08:49.466 --> 00:08:55.218 lesson that the really base academia in long-term areas gathered together can 00:08:55.218 --> 00:09:00.038 create an expertise that then pans out in lots of ways is really important. 00:09:00.038 --> 00:09:01.388 The quantum example is a very good one. 00:09:01.958 --> 00:09:07.418 Given that, as you say, what we see is actually both individual companies that 00:09:07.453 --> 00:09:11.073 are now being valued on a global basis, having come out of that ecosystem, 00:09:11.583 --> 00:09:16.133 but importantly, I think what you're seeing in the quantum world is there are 00:09:16.133 --> 00:09:19.983 different theologies almost about how to do quantum and actually what's really 00:09:19.983 --> 00:09:25.473 interesting is the two leading quantum companies that we've invested in so 00:09:25.473 --> 00:09:29.283 far from Oxford have had very different ideologies about how to do quantum. 00:09:29.283 --> 00:09:32.943 And I think that's comes from the way in which they were formed, namely a 00:09:32.943 --> 00:09:36.273 bunch of academics who don't work as a single team, but work in a single place. 00:09:36.643 --> 00:09:39.940 Personally, I think it's very, very likely that we're less than five 00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:44.590 years away from quantum computing being demonstrably superior in 00:09:44.590 --> 00:09:46.570 some areas to classical computing. 00:09:47.020 --> 00:09:51.250 That obviously ought to be exponential after it's happened and clearly the 00:09:51.250 --> 00:09:54.730 value of compute is now much more obvious than it was when we first 00:09:54.730 --> 00:09:58.540 invested in computing given what's going on in the classical space. 00:09:58.640 --> 00:10:02.270 I think what's so interesting about quantum, aside from its processing power 00:10:02.730 --> 00:10:06.360 is the way in which quantum computers will be used and the sort of operating 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:11.160 systems and applications that go alongside them is evolving very fast and perhaps 00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:12.810 will vary with different industries. 00:10:13.270 --> 00:10:17.500 So definitely if you ask me what am I on the lookout for, it's a question of 00:10:17.930 --> 00:10:21.080 I still think there's a ton of progress to be made in terms of the hardware 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:23.810 and the systems proving themselves. 00:10:23.990 --> 00:10:28.250 But long term, you've got to assume that if quantum computing is a platform, there 00:10:28.250 --> 00:10:33.459 will be software layers and application layers that create huge investment 00:10:33.459 --> 00:10:38.259 opportunities where the linkage between the hardware and the software could go in 00:10:38.259 --> 00:10:40.869 a range of different ways and certainly that's where our work is going up there. 00:10:41.604 --> 00:10:42.564 Susannah de Jager: Really interesting. 00:10:43.974 --> 00:10:48.024 You spoke there obviously about the specifics of institutions that are set up 00:10:48.084 --> 00:10:51.444 to harbor expertise, so quantum computing. 00:10:51.954 --> 00:10:56.484 But you and I have also spoken about community in the wider sense and the 00:10:56.484 --> 00:11:01.834 things that Oxford does have in spades like pubs and I say this somewhat 00:11:01.834 --> 00:11:04.984 flippantly, but I don't really, cause you were talking about Graham there, 00:11:05.314 --> 00:11:10.684 Dave Norwood, you know yourself, myself very proud member of the Inklings. 00:11:10.684 --> 00:11:14.794 The group, which led by Dave Norwood during COVID, stepped into help save the 00:11:14.794 --> 00:11:19.294 Lamb and Flag, and it's that kind of soft side of Oxford that I think people that 00:11:19.294 --> 00:11:22.114 aren't part of it can feel so intangible. 00:11:22.419 --> 00:11:26.469 It's hard to appreciate the value, and I'd love to hear it from your perspective 00:11:26.709 --> 00:11:28.869 because it is so hard to grasp. 00:11:29.384 --> 00:11:31.794 Pete Davies: Yeah, I probably shouldn't say this in a podcast, but 00:11:31.844 --> 00:11:37.034 my parting shot to my last OSE board meeting was to remind them to retain 00:11:37.034 --> 00:11:38.864 the magic as well as the structure. 00:11:39.164 --> 00:11:42.609 For all of us, especially in the current world, magic is a really important thing. 00:11:42.979 --> 00:11:46.655 And certainly for me and you and Dave and everyone else who got involved 00:11:47.135 --> 00:11:50.182 with the Lamb and Flag, what was striking was the number of people who 00:11:50.182 --> 00:11:51.832 just said it was obviously important. 00:11:51.962 --> 00:11:54.182 They didn't really try to define why it was important. 00:11:54.182 --> 00:11:56.672 They just said it's really obvious that it's important. 00:11:56.995 --> 00:11:59.065 If I tried to sort of narrow it down a bit. 00:11:59.065 --> 00:12:05.956 One is, the impact that time within the ecosystem has on people as individuals 00:12:07.021 --> 00:12:11.332 is a real value, not always positive, I'm sure, and different for different people. 00:12:11.812 --> 00:12:16.182 But I think the human impact on individuals and their lives is a very 00:12:16.182 --> 00:12:20.387 rare thing that Oxford has and things that are very rare and very valuable, I 00:12:20.387 --> 00:12:22.187 think do need to be cherished generally. 00:12:23.172 --> 00:12:27.222 Frankly, I think also get more economically valuable as they 00:12:27.222 --> 00:12:28.902 become rarer in a digital age. 00:12:28.902 --> 00:12:32.775 And so, I think there's definitely a value that's growing there. 00:12:33.375 --> 00:12:36.865 I think the second question then is okay, how do you preserve that? 00:12:37.174 --> 00:12:40.794 I mean, my worry has always been with universities or nonprofit making 00:12:40.794 --> 00:12:45.114 institutions is it's very hard for them to retain their unique assets 00:12:45.114 --> 00:12:46.734 if they're not able to reinvest. 00:12:46.993 --> 00:12:50.053 If you said basically what have we tried to do on the research side, it's ensure 00:12:50.053 --> 00:12:56.038 that via the commercialization of some of these product projects enough capital goes 00:12:56.038 --> 00:13:00.018 back into reinvesting in them to retain the long-term intellectual expertise. 00:13:00.068 --> 00:13:03.458 I think the same is true of the magic and you know, it's great for instance 00:13:03.458 --> 00:13:06.608 that, a different cohort, has seen the value within the Eagle and Child 00:13:06.608 --> 00:13:09.328 and probably with different budgetary constraints and different plans. 00:13:09.428 --> 00:13:12.968 The broad question I'd pose is if the magic is as valuable as we all think 00:13:13.371 --> 00:13:17.211 at the moment, it's similar to perhaps where we were 20 years ago with IP Group. 00:13:17.931 --> 00:13:22.041 It's only a few people who are choosing to invest in that and see that the 00:13:22.041 --> 00:13:25.971 probability is that the investment in that magic should be thought of 00:13:25.971 --> 00:13:29.961 a bit more consciously and aim to be proliferated in the same way that 00:13:29.961 --> 00:13:33.501 hopefully what we're doing on the research side is proliferating things. 00:13:33.816 --> 00:13:36.010 And then to the third thing, and I clearly am not involved with 00:13:36.160 --> 00:13:37.630 running the university in any form. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:43.234 But I would say that, the two, unique assets Oxford or any university does, 00:13:43.654 --> 00:13:46.744 one is the research that we talk about a lot, but the other is the teaching. 00:13:46.812 --> 00:13:51.747 Certainly for me, one of the frustrations of the way in which 00:13:51.867 --> 00:13:56.487 tuition fees were imposed was in many ways it didn't allow the value of the 00:13:56.487 --> 00:13:58.257 teaching to be adequately reflected. 00:13:58.767 --> 00:14:02.187 The undergraduate experience within Oxford is one of the most 00:14:02.187 --> 00:14:03.837 valuable things in the world. 00:14:04.362 --> 00:14:08.982 And the tutorial system, I think certainly in my case, is formative in a 00:14:08.982 --> 00:14:11.892 way that's just other universities are finding increasingly hard to replicate. 00:14:11.892 --> 00:14:17.502 And again, critically is something where digital connections, almost 00:14:17.982 --> 00:14:20.952 the very failure of digital connections makes it more valuable. 00:14:21.002 --> 00:14:23.642 How to address it is politically much more difficult. 00:14:24.092 --> 00:14:27.896 But there is the risk that if you don't value it properly, economically, 00:14:27.896 --> 00:14:29.456 it becomes very difficult to sustain. 00:14:29.946 --> 00:14:33.666 I think that's probably where I end up, albeit, I think magic is a nicer 00:14:33.666 --> 00:14:35.616 term than teaching to think about it. 00:14:36.646 --> 00:14:38.656 Susannah de Jager: I think that's exceptionally interesting and you've 00:14:38.656 --> 00:14:44.986 strung together quite a few things there, but hearing you explain the logic 00:14:44.986 --> 00:14:48.831 between them one does see these gaps. 00:14:48.891 --> 00:14:53.481 I only last week was at the launch of Oxford North, which is this amazing 00:14:53.481 --> 00:14:58.071 new science innovation center that's a JV between Ontario Teacher's Pension 00:14:58.071 --> 00:15:02.061 Plan, St. John's Oxford, Thomas White, which is their development company. 00:15:02.481 --> 00:15:07.371 What's amazing is the benefit of places like science parks have become 00:15:07.371 --> 00:15:12.531 so evident and you are identifying this gap still where there are other, 00:15:12.801 --> 00:15:16.191 as you say, magical elements that almost need to be priced correctly 00:15:16.191 --> 00:15:18.351 in the ecosystem as we go forward. 00:15:18.351 --> 00:15:21.351 Pete Davies: I'm pretty confident that the way in which ecosystems evolve 00:15:21.786 --> 00:15:25.166 probably gets led by investment in science parks and labs initially. 00:15:25.646 --> 00:15:30.162 But, you know, they create both wealth and investment and a set of businesses 00:15:30.162 --> 00:15:32.052 around that and employment around that. 00:15:33.082 --> 00:15:36.772 You are seeing, I think already, I was talking to someone the other day who 00:15:36.772 --> 00:15:40.282 was thinking about a major property development within the center of Oxford. 00:15:41.347 --> 00:15:44.841 That was very much saying, look, an ecosystem that's more dynamic, 00:15:44.841 --> 00:15:49.131 there aren't sufficient hotels, et cetera, et cetera, restaurants, pubs. 00:15:49.131 --> 00:15:52.726 So, one thing that's been really interesting to me has been watching 00:15:52.726 --> 00:15:56.026 the multiplier effect in action has brought it alive a lot more clearly 00:15:56.026 --> 00:15:59.996 than anything I did in economics and you know, you see that if you fund a lot of 00:15:59.996 --> 00:16:01.556 companies, they need a lot of lab space. 00:16:01.556 --> 00:16:04.579 The lab space needs new science parks, there are more meetings and 00:16:04.579 --> 00:16:05.929 therefore more hotel rooms needed. 00:16:05.929 --> 00:16:10.509 The multiplier effect of company formation to me you know, Oxford 00:16:10.509 --> 00:16:11.769 is a great case study of that. 00:16:11.769 --> 00:16:13.929 That is only in the very early stages of that. 00:16:14.491 --> 00:16:17.131 Susannah de Jager: So you've obviously touched upon the Eagle of Child and 00:16:17.131 --> 00:16:18.421 you've spoken about the investment. 00:16:19.351 --> 00:16:23.521 The Ellison Institute of Technology, which is the new owner of the Eagle and 00:16:23.521 --> 00:16:28.961 Child, is this huge new player in the Oxford ecosystem, and it's clearly going 00:16:28.961 --> 00:16:32.141 to change some of the shape greatly. 00:16:32.591 --> 00:16:35.766 I'd love to just get your perspective as an investor. 00:16:36.464 --> 00:16:37.784 Pete Davies: I think it's wonderful. 00:16:37.784 --> 00:16:41.134 I think scale, novelty, and ambition are all things that, you know, 00:16:41.134 --> 00:16:42.358 should be encouraged wherever. 00:16:42.408 --> 00:16:45.558 I think if you don't have scale, novelty and ambition, the danger of 00:16:45.558 --> 00:16:49.338 the ecosystem becoming insular is quite high just given the natural trends. 00:16:49.368 --> 00:16:50.771 I that they're doing it. 00:16:50.771 --> 00:16:55.151 I think for this and for other reasons as far as I can tell, the academic 00:16:55.211 --> 00:16:59.331 recruitment within Oxford has never been stronger and certainly from a 00:16:59.511 --> 00:17:05.121 governmental perspective to my mind that basic question of are the world's best 00:17:05.121 --> 00:17:09.141 academics wanting to work in the UK ought to be one of the highest priorities when 00:17:09.141 --> 00:17:10.731 one's thinking about long-term growth. 00:17:11.291 --> 00:17:15.509 Perhaps in the same way as OSE when it first started, I would imagine if 00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:18.972 I were within Ellison, going back to my earlier point about structure and 00:17:18.972 --> 00:17:23.701 practice, practices will undoubtedly iterate and evolve behind what 00:17:23.701 --> 00:17:27.901 feels like the broad notion, which is to do something at a really high 00:17:27.901 --> 00:17:29.641 level that hasn't been done before. 00:17:30.191 --> 00:17:33.611 Converting that into individual targets and projects and working out how they 00:17:33.611 --> 00:17:38.051 interrelate with the ecosystem, I'm sure will evolve over time and one of 00:17:38.051 --> 00:17:41.951 the wonderful things about Oxford is, things are in constant oscillation a bit. 00:17:42.001 --> 00:17:45.051 It is not something you either could or should put a structure on and say, 00:17:45.051 --> 00:17:48.711 this is how it's gonna work for the next 50 years because the beauty of 00:17:48.711 --> 00:17:54.741 both academia and commercial investing at this stage is it is unpredictable 00:17:54.741 --> 00:17:56.771 and freedom is to be valued. 00:17:56.771 --> 00:17:59.479 And so I'm super excited about what they're doing. 00:17:59.929 --> 00:18:02.359 Very keen to see how they look at probably some similar 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:03.769 problems to ones we've looked at. 00:18:04.289 --> 00:18:08.143 They'll definitely have a ton of insights and opportunities that go 00:18:08.143 --> 00:18:10.868 way beyond what's been done before and that's exactly what should happen. 00:18:12.418 --> 00:18:14.573 Susannah de Jager: I think you're spot on there that people often 00:18:14.573 --> 00:18:16.313 feel that there should be an answer. 00:18:16.871 --> 00:18:19.271 That they should have a plan that they're rolling out, whoever it 00:18:19.271 --> 00:18:23.261 is, whatever business it is, and often the hardest but most honest 00:18:23.261 --> 00:18:25.571 thing to say is, I'm not sure yet. 00:18:25.671 --> 00:18:28.911 We are building the plane as we fly it, and that's as it should be because 00:18:28.911 --> 00:18:30.411 there will be things we don't yet know. 00:18:30.888 --> 00:18:33.378 Pete Davies: Yeah, the flip side of that, which I always, I think again 00:18:33.378 --> 00:18:37.328 with an OSE we only learn afterwards was doing it better than it's been done 00:18:37.328 --> 00:18:40.972 before, and doing it better than you were doing it the year before, seems 00:18:40.972 --> 00:18:42.862 to me a much more reasonable target. 00:18:43.652 --> 00:18:46.502 And often, as you say, people want to theorize towards perfection, 00:18:46.502 --> 00:18:51.102 whereas actually, I certainly would tend towards empirically trying to 00:18:51.102 --> 00:18:54.592 improve what's, what one's already done is the right way to achieve most. 00:18:55.732 --> 00:18:58.002 In all forms of life but particularly with an Oxford I would say. 00:18:58.592 --> 00:19:00.971 Susannah de Jager: Yeah, that's an important theme for anyone, whether 00:19:00.971 --> 00:19:03.701 they're growing their own business or growing the investment business. 00:19:04.087 --> 00:19:09.967 It leads us on to another point, which is that the UK itself as a broader ecosystem 00:19:09.967 --> 00:19:14.137 is also in evolution, and I know that you've been very involved in some of 00:19:14.137 --> 00:19:16.867 these conversations about capital reforms. 00:19:17.237 --> 00:19:20.447 You obviously come from a listed equities background, and so therefore 00:19:20.447 --> 00:19:25.062 the capital markets, which are often reported at the moment, the IPOs, that 00:19:25.098 --> 00:19:27.588 perceived lack of depth of research. 00:19:28.100 --> 00:19:31.310 I'd love to have your view on how you see those things evolving. 00:19:31.310 --> 00:19:34.790 Because I think too often the news flow, and we can all be guilty of this 00:19:34.790 --> 00:19:37.070 to a degree, can be quite negative. 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:41.690 But again, it's just one of those things from my perspective, that we are a 00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:45.440 little bit more nascent than the US not that we're not on the right trajectory. 00:19:46.453 --> 00:19:50.313 Pete Davies: When I think about this, there are two separate issues that 00:19:50.313 --> 00:19:53.313 are related, but that are probably best dealt with individually. 00:19:53.943 --> 00:19:59.433 One is the valuation of companies that are listed in the UK and the consequences 00:19:59.433 --> 00:20:06.063 of that and two is the ability of capital to reach companies for them to invest in. 00:20:06.643 --> 00:20:09.223 And the two are related, but I think certainly if I were the 00:20:09.223 --> 00:20:12.613 government, I would focus on the latter rather than the former. 00:20:13.093 --> 00:20:19.958 So my personal diagnosis, which may well be wrong, is that the reality that UK 00:20:19.958 --> 00:20:25.782 companies are undervalued and reality that UK listed companies tend to have 00:20:26.612 --> 00:20:32.402 both a lower valuation and probably a higher hurdle rate for investment is true 00:20:32.732 --> 00:20:34.832 does have some negative consequences. 00:20:35.352 --> 00:20:38.352 The global equity market is very concentrated even within the US I 00:20:38.352 --> 00:20:41.442 suspect if I was talking to a US fund manager, they would say that if you 00:20:41.442 --> 00:20:46.082 go outside a certain set of companies, other companies are lowly valued. 00:20:46.842 --> 00:20:50.127 Certainly it's true of other parts of Europe and Japan and my 00:20:50.127 --> 00:20:53.157 instinct, and maybe it's just my free markets thing, is personally I 00:20:53.157 --> 00:20:56.247 just see that as an opportunity that ultimately markets will correct. 00:20:56.717 --> 00:20:59.357 Clearly for it to correct, you're gonna need political stability 00:20:59.357 --> 00:21:02.327 within the UK and you're gonna need the companies to perform well. 00:21:02.957 --> 00:21:07.607 I don't think the impacts from it a massive at the moment on the economy, and 00:21:07.737 --> 00:21:10.707 I can't really imagine what governments could do that would sort that out 00:21:10.707 --> 00:21:14.277 quicker than markets will sort it out beyond just provide a stable ecosystem. 00:21:14.697 --> 00:21:17.007 And to be fair, if you said what successive governments have failed 00:21:17.007 --> 00:21:21.007 to do, I would say far more of their failure is to provide a broad stability 00:21:21.007 --> 00:21:24.837 in economics or politics rather than necessarily an individual view 00:21:24.837 --> 00:21:26.047 on particular parts of the market. 00:21:26.047 --> 00:21:27.547 You said why is a discount there? 00:21:27.567 --> 00:21:31.077 It's cause UK's been incredibly politically volatile for a decade 00:21:31.467 --> 00:21:34.827 rather than because any particular strategy around listing markets. 00:21:35.192 --> 00:21:38.042 I'm not sure in 20 years time we'll have local equity markets. 00:21:38.142 --> 00:21:42.582 My own instinct is you know, most shares will be traded most of the time and 00:21:43.132 --> 00:21:47.548 I personally think in the end, London will thrive as a financial center, 00:21:48.418 --> 00:21:52.378 because of its history, competitive advantages of intellectual capital and 00:21:52.378 --> 00:21:56.225 time zone and won't be doing it just be trading in companies that happen 00:21:56.225 --> 00:21:57.605 to have historically been listed here. 00:21:57.605 --> 00:22:00.515 So may maybe I'm a bit of a heretic on the listed side. 00:22:00.835 --> 00:22:05.635 On the growth capital side, where I think there is a very clear issue. 00:22:06.355 --> 00:22:09.505 I think the way I would characterize it today, and I think hopefully we've been 00:22:09.505 --> 00:22:14.755 part of solving this, is I tend to think about growth capital in sort of log scale 00:22:14.755 --> 00:22:19.825 of sort of one, 1 million, 10 million, a hundred million, billion, funding rounds. 00:22:20.225 --> 00:22:23.540 For a lot of reasons, the UK now is very good at the one in the 10 00:22:23.540 --> 00:22:26.795 million and actually I think now, especially in the current market 00:22:26.795 --> 00:22:29.885 conditions, the billion dollar raise is a global phenomena where it doesn't 00:22:29.885 --> 00:22:31.085 really matter where you're listed. 00:22:31.365 --> 00:22:33.435 Once you get to there, it doesn't really matter where you are. 00:22:33.750 --> 00:22:37.350 I think, Oxford's a great example of this, that the platform's being created, 00:22:37.350 --> 00:22:40.860 like OSE have supported this, all the government tax policy has probably 00:22:40.860 --> 00:22:41.940 supported the one to 10 million. 00:22:42.350 --> 00:22:43.490 So I think that's pretty good. 00:22:43.820 --> 00:22:45.500 I think that a hundred million is the big problem. 00:22:45.550 --> 00:22:46.960 I think the UK just has a problem. 00:22:46.990 --> 00:22:50.707 There are lots of examples I could see where companies that are based 00:22:50.707 --> 00:22:55.087 in the UK are struggling to raise 20 million to grow themselves. 00:22:55.237 --> 00:22:59.077 Where if they were based in the US they'd be a having access to sort of 00:22:59.077 --> 00:23:03.697 multiples of that capital and I think that has a real impact on creation. 00:23:04.057 --> 00:23:09.057 The absence of that scale up capital, is something that's genuinely imperiling 00:23:09.057 --> 00:23:12.604 economic growth in the UK and is something that governments and the private sector 00:23:12.604 --> 00:23:14.554 now are trying to address, which is great. 00:23:14.624 --> 00:23:18.014 I think if they can successfully address that, one could radically 00:23:18.014 --> 00:23:19.604 alter medium term growth prospects. 00:23:20.879 --> 00:23:23.759 Susannah de Jager: And to the point you made earlier about increasingly 00:23:23.999 --> 00:23:30.656 global stock markets, could you not make the same argument here for scale 00:23:30.656 --> 00:23:35.166 up capital becoming increasingly global and therefore what's the implication 00:23:35.196 --> 00:23:37.176 if you continue that thought process? 00:23:37.693 --> 00:23:40.363 Pete Davies: I think most of what I would say about anything I think 00:23:40.363 --> 00:23:45.013 in terms of companies or markets is the maximum I'm capable of is 00:23:45.748 --> 00:23:47.368 shifting things by a couple of years. 00:23:47.428 --> 00:23:49.711 unless something has a chance of happening anyway, capital 00:23:49.711 --> 00:23:51.421 can't do that much to affect it. 00:23:51.814 --> 00:23:52.404 OSE think. 00:23:52.571 --> 00:23:55.961 has thrived because academics were already ready to do commercializations. 00:23:55.961 --> 00:23:59.861 If you tried to do it 40 years ago, probably the ecosystem wouldn't 00:23:59.861 --> 00:24:04.074 have responded to it and similarly with your point on scale up capital. 00:24:05.064 --> 00:24:08.574 Undoubtedly, if the companies are as good as we think they are. 00:24:09.474 --> 00:24:14.424 Even with an absence of capital over 5, 10, 15 years, their success and the 00:24:14.424 --> 00:24:17.444 financial returns from that should be large enough to be globally relevant. 00:24:17.948 --> 00:24:18.861 So I think you're probably right. 00:24:18.892 --> 00:24:22.522 Though I would say that I think being early has some value. 00:24:23.182 --> 00:24:25.792 In terms of where you ultimately end up even allowing for that, 00:24:25.792 --> 00:24:28.312 just in terms of getting the next generation of entrepreneurs. 00:24:28.702 --> 00:24:31.072 So I think we'll be in a materially better place if we do it quicker 00:24:31.582 --> 00:24:34.792 and I genuinely think to accelerate it in the next two or three years, 00:24:35.832 --> 00:24:39.552 requires some shift in behavior from financial participants in the UK to 00:24:39.912 --> 00:24:43.522 towards investing more in that area that I think they actually want to do. 00:24:43.572 --> 00:24:47.719 I think genuinely when I look at several of these companies, I mean, it goes 00:24:47.719 --> 00:24:51.559 counter to what one would normally think in finance, but you know, if you said one 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.419 of the learnings of the last 15 years has been to pay a bit more respect to network 00:24:56.419 --> 00:24:58.339 effects and scaling laws within companies. 00:24:58.426 --> 00:25:01.036 IE, that if you are big, you're more likely to stay big. 00:25:01.569 --> 00:25:05.170 I think definitely I could point to it is strange that normally you would 00:25:05.170 --> 00:25:08.620 say use as little equity as possible to get to the point, but actually 00:25:09.010 --> 00:25:13.330 quite often, and sometimes this is attitudinal rather than actual investment. 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.830 Just I do see examples of companies where if they raise 20 million, they'll 00:25:17.830 --> 00:25:20.380 probably fail, whereas if they raise a hundred million, they'll probably succeed. 00:25:20.748 --> 00:25:23.405 It's slightly counter to basic economic theory, but I think I've 00:25:23.405 --> 00:25:27.142 seen enough empirical examples of that to say that, you know, more capital 00:25:27.142 --> 00:25:32.962 today would have a distinct shift in where you ended up even allowing 00:25:32.962 --> 00:25:34.882 for learning from markets over time. 00:25:36.407 --> 00:25:38.197 Susannah de Jager: Yeah, very interesting. 00:25:38.917 --> 00:25:42.667 So Pete, obviously you've been involved in the discussions at that top level. 00:25:42.787 --> 00:25:46.982 You've also really taken the mantle forward yourself at Lansdowne 00:25:47.032 --> 00:25:52.132 Partners in that you are launching a UK Growth Fund, and so you've 00:25:52.132 --> 00:25:55.942 been both part of the conversation and subject to these discussions. 00:25:56.092 --> 00:25:57.187 How has that experience been? 00:25:57.630 --> 00:25:58.620 Pete Davies: Well, we think it's going very well. 00:25:58.620 --> 00:26:01.190 We're hopefully very near the completion of that process. 00:26:01.243 --> 00:26:05.773 I think what it's really struck me has been, and why we've stuck at it actually, 00:26:06.283 --> 00:26:12.533 is that the range of people, and we've only really done it within the UK. 00:26:12.533 --> 00:26:16.223 We've tried to build an a set of investors in the short term, which is mainly UK 00:26:16.223 --> 00:26:21.453 oriented with a view that, if we can do that, then over time attracting more 00:26:21.453 --> 00:26:23.253 global capital could come after that. 00:26:23.883 --> 00:26:28.533 I think we've been really struck by the number of people who would like to do it, 00:26:29.083 --> 00:26:30.973 both in the private and public sectors. 00:26:31.147 --> 00:26:34.567 You know, actually would like to do it at a scale that certainly our fund 00:26:34.987 --> 00:26:38.490 would only be a small drop in the ocean for, and if I even put one or two of 00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:43.200 these investors together, the scale of their desire to invest would be 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.120 transformative for the whole ecosystem. 00:26:45.120 --> 00:26:48.990 So I think the very good news is that the number of people who would like to 00:26:48.990 --> 00:26:53.770 commit substantial capital to that and the range of backgrounds they come from. 00:26:54.145 --> 00:26:58.308 In terms of how to do it, the reality is, especially within deep tech, the 00:26:58.308 --> 00:27:01.758 opportunity that's there from an absence of capital has the downside that it 00:27:01.758 --> 00:27:04.578 doesn't have a ton of track records of people who've done this successfully 00:27:04.578 --> 00:27:08.568 and that makes it, there aren't the natural pathways for people to invest. 00:27:09.088 --> 00:27:15.328 and hopefully my role in this with a degree of trust and expertise and patience 00:27:15.448 --> 00:27:22.313 is to go through that process such that A, we can deploy some capital, but B, other 00:27:22.313 --> 00:27:25.913 connections are made that mean capital's deployed in a range of different ways. 00:27:25.913 --> 00:27:30.173 For instance, I know that OSE themselves now have a much wider range of people 00:27:30.173 --> 00:27:36.143 they're talking to as potential co-investors than they did a year ago, 00:27:36.563 --> 00:27:42.413 and similar to us, I suspect they would say that converting that desire to work 00:27:42.413 --> 00:27:47.088 together, to practice of working together, It takes a bit longer than it one might 00:27:47.088 --> 00:27:49.898 hope, but I think we're definitely a long way ahead of where we were a year ago. 00:27:51.588 --> 00:27:54.708 Susannah de Jager: I think the point there corresponds with some that you've made 00:27:54.978 --> 00:27:59.298 in different regards earlier, which is there's the sort of structural elements 00:27:59.298 --> 00:28:03.498 and then there's the process elements, and what we're talking about here is a 00:28:03.498 --> 00:28:08.144 group of investors, pension funds, notable among them, but also large investment, 00:28:08.214 --> 00:28:10.784 insurance companies and government. 00:28:10.784 --> 00:28:11.144 Yeah. 00:28:11.414 --> 00:28:15.344 Pete Davies: I mean, I think one of the big positives of the last 12 months 00:28:15.514 --> 00:28:20.444 is that actually the notion that scale up capital needs supporting is now 00:28:20.444 --> 00:28:24.854 government orthodoxy and backed up with by significant shifts in allocation 00:28:24.854 --> 00:28:29.414 of capital from the government at an entity level and again, bit like 00:28:29.414 --> 00:28:34.424 we're describing, converting desire and entity funding into practical 00:28:34.424 --> 00:28:36.014 investment now is a bit of a challenge. 00:28:36.014 --> 00:28:39.139 But that's because it hasn't been done before, so we shouldn't be that surprised. 00:28:39.629 --> 00:28:42.004 Susannah de Jager: Yeah, so the willingness is there, the vectors 00:28:42.004 --> 00:28:45.144 are being designed by people such as yourself, and then I think the really 00:28:45.144 --> 00:28:49.344 exciting bit, as you articulate, is that it's not just the quantum of 00:28:49.344 --> 00:28:52.254 money that comes into a structure such as the one you are launching. 00:28:52.494 --> 00:28:57.474 It's that education of co-investors who have even more firepower behind 00:28:57.474 --> 00:29:00.924 them that will be the real kind of multiplier effect in this scenario. 00:29:02.064 --> 00:29:06.131 Pete Davies: Yeah, definitely and actually at an ecosystem level you want 00:29:06.131 --> 00:29:09.161 people to be experimenting and looking at this in different ways and attracting 00:29:09.161 --> 00:29:14.261 talent into it such that we can all learn and some form of competition. 00:29:14.261 --> 00:29:20.431 I think one thing that's perhaps missing in this debate is unless the returns 00:29:20.431 --> 00:29:24.451 from this process are really good, it's gonna be a very unsustainable thing. 00:29:24.451 --> 00:29:26.958 So, I think it's important that we're rigorous in terms 00:29:26.958 --> 00:29:29.058 of the pricing of this capital. 00:29:29.788 --> 00:29:32.398 There's every reason to believe the returns on this investment should be 00:29:32.398 --> 00:29:36.998 amazing given how good the IP is and how little capital there is and those returns 00:29:36.998 --> 00:29:38.618 being amazing, creates a multiplier. 00:29:39.018 --> 00:29:40.128 The flip side is also true. 00:29:40.128 --> 00:29:43.908 If people end up doing this in an ill disciplined fashion 00:29:44.151 --> 00:29:45.291 will set everything back. 00:29:45.309 --> 00:29:48.449 So I think it's really important that you get competition and also 00:29:48.449 --> 00:29:51.269 that the financial returns are recognized as the enabler they 00:29:51.269 --> 00:29:52.469 actually are over the long term. 00:29:53.484 --> 00:29:54.749 Susannah de Jager: It's not an act of charity. 00:29:54.809 --> 00:29:59.129 It needs to sit within those portfolios, and in fairness, the model is there 00:29:59.129 --> 00:30:00.389 from the Canadian Pension Plans. 00:30:00.389 --> 00:30:04.109 It's just making sure we pay the right amount for talent. 00:30:05.339 --> 00:30:08.289 Pete Davies: Yeah, and also, you know, luck will be involved and these 00:30:08.289 --> 00:30:11.799 things will be non-linear, that one or two big winners will probably 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:15.609 accrue rather than 20 small ones is probably the likelihood of this. 00:30:15.609 --> 00:30:19.185 But the logic is that higher returns equals a ton more volume 00:30:19.185 --> 00:30:22.944 of capital in generation two of this and that in turn breeds an 00:30:22.944 --> 00:30:25.494 ambition amongst the entrepreneurs. 00:30:25.554 --> 00:30:28.224 That in turn will create companies that don't currently exist as well. 00:30:29.714 --> 00:30:31.964 Susannah de Jager: Pete, I wish you all the best with it, for all 00:30:31.964 --> 00:30:33.794 the reasons we've just described. 00:30:33.794 --> 00:30:37.774 It's so important that people like you get the opportunity to prove that 00:30:37.824 --> 00:30:43.434 the results are there and they can be so beneficial to investors and in the 00:30:43.434 --> 00:30:45.054 meantime, thank you for your time. 00:30:45.579 --> 00:30:46.079 Pete Davies: My pleasure. 00:30:46.114 --> 00:30:47.254 Thank you very much, and thank you. 00:30:47.254 --> 00:30:50.524 Also, I should also take the opportunity to say thank you to 00:30:50.614 --> 00:30:53.498 tons and tons of people within the Oxford ecosystem who've worked far 00:30:53.498 --> 00:30:54.428 harder than me on these projects. 00:30:54.488 --> 00:30:59.348 But also being instrumental in helping me learn to think and helping 00:30:59.348 --> 00:31:02.138 me have such a wonderful life in terms of finding friends, et cetera. 00:31:02.138 --> 00:31:04.328 So, probably too many to thank individually beyond. 00:31:04.388 --> 00:31:08.378 I should just finish by thanking my tutor, Ralph Walker, who was an inspiration 00:31:08.378 --> 00:31:13.148 for me and definitely someone without whom I wouldn't be anywhere close to 00:31:13.148 --> 00:31:14.288 doing any of the things I'm doing now. 00:31:14.288 --> 00:31:15.818 So that's probably where I should finish. 00:31:16.261 --> 00:31:17.124 Susannah de Jager: Wonderful. 00:31:17.238 --> 00:31:20.188 Thanks for listening to this episode of Oxford+, presented 00:31:20.208 --> 00:31:21.428 by me, Susannah de Jager. 00:31:21.708 --> 00:31:25.908 If you want to stay up to date with all things Oxford+, please visit our website, 00:31:25.958 --> 00:31:30.678 oxfordplus.co.uk and sign up for our newsletter so you never miss an update. 00:31:31.158 --> 00:31:34.458 Oxford+ was made in partnership with Mishcon de Reya and is produced 00:31:34.458 --> 00:31:36.168 and edited by Story Ninety-Four.