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Brad Frost: Welcome to Wake Up Excited!

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In this episode, I talk
with Denise Jacobs.

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Denise is a creativity evangelist,
a speaker, and the author of the

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book Banish Your Inner Critic, as
well as several web design books.

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I've watched Denise on stage unleash
her positive energy to an unsuspecting

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conference audience, and I very much
had her in mind whenever I first hatched

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up this idea to put the show together.

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We had a great conversation
where we discussed restoring cast

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iron, connecting past and present
passions growth through teaching.

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Navigating this current
poisonous moment in time.

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Denise's incredible backyard garden
and empowerment through creativity.

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Before we get into this conversation,
I just wanted to say that wake

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up excited is a labor of love
and is totally self-funded.

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So if you want to support this show
and my work, I'd really love it if

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you checked out our online courses
about design systems, digital design,

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and web development, which you could
find at brad frost.com/courses.

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All right.

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Without further ado, here is my
conversation with Denise Jacobs.

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Denise, what are you
excited about right now?

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What has you waking up excited?

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Denise: I actually have a few things
that are having me wake up excited.

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, but the first one that's a
tangible thing is I just started,

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restoring cast iron, which.

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I kind of love, like
how obscure that feels.

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I think especially for people of a
certain age, like in the tech industry

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and stuff like that, but I feel like
there's been this, you know, especially

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with the pandemic and stuff like that,
there's definitely been a movement

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to get back to things that are more.

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tangible and physical that you
can do that are more kind of

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traditional, type endeavors.

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I know during the pandemic, everybody
got  crazy about making sourdough

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bread and, so during Christmas of 2023.

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Brad Frost: my

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Denise: sister had mentioned something
about restoring cast iron and there's

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like a method you can use using easy
off and putting it in like a black

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plastic bag and letting it sit for
a few days and it takes off all

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the crud and all the old, you know,

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Brad Frost: caked-on

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Denise: on stuff.

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And I had a full set from 12 inches
down to six inches uh, cast iron

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in like six pieces or something.

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And I was like, oh wow, I'd really
like to do that because I have

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these old pieces and they, they
don't seem to like be non-stick

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the way cast iron's supposed to be,

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I

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Brad Frost: Yep.

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Denise: it.

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And then I thought, oh, for this
Christmas I was thinking, oh, maybe

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what I'll do is I'll take one of
my extra cast iron pans and I'll

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refinish it and over for Christmas.

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So I did kind of a deep
dive looking into stuff.

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Started following this guy called
Cast Iron Chris on Instagram

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and watched his videos, watched
some of his stuff on YouTube.

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Follow this other guy named Josh Shapiro.

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I did it with the easy off, hated
it because the stuff didn't come

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off and I was like all grumpy.

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And so then I went back to the videos and
I was like, okay, do I need to make an

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The answer to that is no, I didn't need
to make an electrolysis tank because one

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of the other things that I used to wake
up excited to do many moons ago, moon,

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is make handmade soap, handmade cold,
processed herbal soap, one of the things

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that you need to make that is sodium
hydroxide, AKA lye, because I make soap,

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I literally have just hanging around.

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And so one of the methods that you can
use is to make what they call a lye bath.

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And you put in one pound of
lye to five gallons of water.

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I was like, well, that's easy.

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I got lye.

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I happened to have just  a pound
put it in a bin that I had literally

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found on the side of the road.

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And I did it and I put the pan that
I had been struggling with in there

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and like came back the next day and
just went and took the crud right off.

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And I was like, oh.

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And then some more research.

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It was like, Hey, you know, you can make
this cast iron seasoning mixture with

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grape seed oil, sunflower oil and beeswax.

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And I was like, well, just
literally happened to have these

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things lying around as one does.

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And so I made some of
this, iron seasoning self.

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So did the whole process followed it to
the letter and everything and came out

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the most gorgeous restored cast iron.

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I can read the, the, stamps on the back.

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Several of my pieces
came from my grandmother.

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I, I was hooked.

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I was hooked.

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Brad Frost: amazing.

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Denise: HOOKED.

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So, I went through and I did my whole set.

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And then I was just like, I
want to do, I wanna do more.

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And so I posted about it on
Facebook and a friend was like,

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Oh, I have some that you could do.

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And I was like, great, bring 'em by.

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And then she was like, Oh, and
I also saw this, this posting

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for these ones for sale.

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I was like, great Contacted the guy.

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went, have gathered up, I think at
this point in time, probably 20.

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It's been, a, it's been, I've
been, I've done a lot, I keep

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doing 'em and they keep coming out.

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Perfect.

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And look at this, look at this.

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Brad Frost: I mean, that
looks like, yeah, that,

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Denise: this

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Brad Frost: am I a pampered
chef or, Oh my God.

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Denise: so so pretty it's from India
and it's got these gorgeous, gorgeous

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Brad Frost: Oh, amazing.

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I mean, wow.

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Denise: Look at this.

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Gorgeous.

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Brad Frost: Like that,
that looks brand new.

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Denise: It does.

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Brad Frost: That's incredible.

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Denise: so I am like deep, I'm
deep in the hole now with it.

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I just, I love the process.

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I love like the whole thing,
but I love the product,

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They're kind of the same thing.

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So it's, in some ways I feel like, well,
it's kind of similar to soap in the

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respect was kind of like rough stuff.

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You don't know what, and then
you put it together and you put

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the scent and stuff together.

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You don't really know
how it's gonna come out.

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And then it comes out and you're
just like, Oh, I made this thing.

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I love making things.

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Brad Frost: Yeah,

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Denise: I showed this to
you before, look at how

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Brad Frost: Look at that.

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Denise: look, how gorgeous,

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Brad Frost: I mean, that's amazing.

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Denise: and then even a little

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Brad Frost: That is incredible.

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Denise: Come on.

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Brad Frost: Ah, it's beautiful.

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Denise: Yeah, I just, I

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Brad Frost: That's so good.

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Denise: I love making

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Brad Frost: products!

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It's so good.

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just, just a few things just
to sort of like play this back.

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Denise: my

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brother.

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Brad Frost: Because there's a lot there.

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You're talking about, the tactile
aspect of connecting with something

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and like the importance of that.

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I also think it's freaking amazing that
you're able to connect multiple things and

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you even said it like many moons ago, you
were waking up excited about this thing.

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And it sounds like you're not actively
doing that soap as much but you're

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able to carry that forward like quite
literally in these materials that you

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still have around so you're  connecting
these dots between these past and

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present passions, which is incredible.

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You're bringing in community  by going
cool, I am excited about this, and I

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am wanting more and I want to bring
people that same excitement and wanna

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bring people closer to this and through
the spirit  of helping and making

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things better and improving something
that's old and worth preserving

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Denise: right,

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Brad Frost: and giving a new life to it.

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Denise: right.

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Brad Frost: there's like,
my God, there's a lot there.

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Denise: There's a lot of layers

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Brad Frost: It's amazing.

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Denise: and, and

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Brad Frost: Yeah.

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Denise: You'll see in a lot of
ways that this is  very much

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a common thread with me, being
being able to take something that.

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was.

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not wanted, considered not valuable, or
trash even, or too much work, or whatever,

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and taking it, and being like, oh no,

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I find this valuable, and I can
make use of it in this way, and

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then turning it into something
absolutely beautiful and spectacular.

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One of the things that
I think is very, very

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common in our culture sadly starting to
be more of a dominant culture globally,

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this kind of fast consumption, getting
things using them, when they stop

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working so well, throwing them away.

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I mean, the number of things

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Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

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Denise: see being thrown away
that look perfectly usable.

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Yes.

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Last night I was driving home and
I stopped because I saw something

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on the side of the road in my
It was a cotton candy machine.

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Like a home cotton candy machine

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Brad Frost: A proper.

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Denise: the bowl for it was
bent first of all, I'm like,

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how did you bend it like this?

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But they just had it in a box and
it's like the whole thing, the

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whole mechanism, the whole machine.

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you just try to fix this?

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Like, this is a whole ass machine, it's
not, it wasn't bought to be disposable,

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it was bought to be used, the thing I
love about the cast iron is, no matter

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how jacked up it looks, for the most
part, if you strip all the stuff off

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and re season it, you're literally, you
are like starting from the beginning

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and you've got this perfectly service
serviceable item that probably has tons

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of history, tons of people have touched

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it, you know, tons of meals have been
eaten at, is nourished countless numbers

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of people, families, children, people.

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So I think that's really cool.

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and I also really love, as a designer,
as a musician, as a, all kinds of

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things that you've done in your life.

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love the process of building mastery
of something like the process of

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like embarking upon something.

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And then learning the tools and
learning the actual, substances that

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you're working with and learning
the thing itself and learning the

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processes and, and learning how

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I learn, like being aware of how
I learn something and, and the

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observations and what you take and,
oh, okay, that doesn't quite work.

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Let me try this.

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Um, lemme see what somebody else has done.

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Let me, there is, maybe there's a
video, maybe there's an article, oh,

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there's this, oh, let me try this.

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I love that process.

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I love it.

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And I love, I love like learning a thing

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Brad Frost: There's so much there, right?

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that's why I think that this matters.

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And really is the whole
gist of this thing.

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Is that there are all of
these opportunities around us.

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We are so incredibly lucky to have yeah,
pick up literally anything like you

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said, physical object, hobby, thing to
sink your teeth into the possibilities.

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are infinite.

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At no other point in human history, have
we had so much abundance and opportunity?

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What's interesting to me, and this
is like a little bit of what I'm kind

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of picking at with the show, is you
don't necessarily feel that that's

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shared when you look out in the rest of
your community or society writ large.

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It's like, you get it.

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You're like, oh yeah, like.

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Learning stuff, connecting
with things, doing stuff, like,

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not just throwing shit away.

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There's a lot there, and for me,
there tends to be, you just see this

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chasm between seemingly like how
other people are moving through life,

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Denise: Mm-hmm

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Brad Frost: their, what their vantage
point is, and this thing that I

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feel pretty strongly inside of me,
and I'm curious if you share that.

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Denise: Oh my gosh.

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Are you kidding?

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Like the amount of the sheer lack of
curiosity and, willingness or interest in

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learning and expanding mind and expanding
your, your Perspective and expanding

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what you understand or know to be true.

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The lack of that that I feel like
I see is just, is always like, wow.

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And it's also interesting too, because.

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I feel like in the industry that we've
been in and in the cohorts and circles

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that we've been in,  there are more
people who are not like that, right?

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There are more people who are curious,
wanna learn and like to think and put

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things together and stuff like that,
because we wouldn't have been drawn to.

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Tech and

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Brad Frost: Yep.

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Denise: and, and, and coding and
development and all of those things.

242
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We wouldn't have been drawn to it
because those are the skills that

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you need to be a front end developer,
backend developer, designer,

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Brad Frost: Yep.

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Denise: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

246
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Like, you need those skills, I follow
a guy on Instagram who, um, is an adult

247
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who never really learned how to read.

248
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So he was an illiterate adult
and he's teaching himself how to

249
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read and he's teaching himself
how to become more literate.

250
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just following him and seeing his
struggles and seeing him struggle

251
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through pronouncing words and reading
things, and he was like, oh, I wanted

252
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to read Harry Potter, but  it's kind
of too advanced, and so I'm gonna

253
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have to kind of ratchet back and read
something that's not as advanced.

254
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And, for me as

255
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somebody who learned how to read was two,
like, I just started reading early and I

256
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just, and I love to read and I love words
and I love like all this stuff that is

257
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such a. Polar opposite of my experience.

258
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And I realized that he's not
an exception, but there's  a

259
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Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

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Denise: huge part of the population who is
at that literacy level and all that stuff.

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And it's like my heart goes out to them.

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'cause I'm just like,
reading is so amazing.

263
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And it's so necessary.

264
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It's such a necessary skill.

265
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to think even how a person's life would
to, would play out or be structured when

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they don't know how to read or they don't
have enough reading comprehension to

267
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understand things like agreement or, you

268
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Brad Frost: yes,

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Denise: so, or even to fill out a

270
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Brad Frost: Yeah.

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Denise: And so it's really interesting to
have that kind of expansion of awareness.

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Like, wow, this is something that
happens, and can I potentially

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do to help mitigate that or

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Brad Frost: Yeah.

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Denise: people  in those states.

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But I don't know if you can help
people when they're incurious.

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I don't know if you if

278
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you can,

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Brad Frost: I,

280
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Denise: you can

281
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Brad Frost: yeah,

282
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Denise: you can how can you help people

283
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Brad Frost: yeah,

284
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Denise: they're incurious?

285
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how can you help people when they don't
seem to be particularly interested in

286
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learning or expanding your worldview

287
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or

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Brad Frost: This is, I think, fascinating.

289
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And first of all, I love that story,
and that person who is sharing

290
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their journey and back to the word
mastery that you said earlier.

291
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They're sharing their journey towards
mastery of the English language, right?

292
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And  sharing that journey Along the way,
just as you're saying, it's like, I love

293
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picking up new things, going through
that process and that act of sharing the

294
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hard parts, the going through the falling
on your face, the saying, whoops, I'm

295
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trying to read Harry Potter, but I need
to walk it back 'cause I'm not there yet.

296
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That is like massively
empowering to, one themselves.

297
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But two, to all these other people
as well, and that's, it's something

298
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that I think that curiosity can,

299
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be sparked through the process of sharing
the, the struggle and the creative act,

300
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because what ends up happening, whenever
you just see the finished painting, or

301
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you just feel the final composition, is
a bunch of people go, I can't do that.

302
00:17:37,778 --> 00:17:38,888
I can't do that.

303
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I don't know what that look.

304
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So that's what's I think is so
incredibly freaking cool about

305
00:17:44,883 --> 00:17:46,953
the world that we operate in now.

306
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And the fact that we have all of
these different channels and outlets

307
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YouTube's a freaking miracle, right?

308
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But all of these things, right?

309
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Whether it's Instagram.

310
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Like when you see artists
on Instagram, right?

311
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And Like me and my daughter
we'll watch these things forever.

312
00:18:05,733 --> 00:18:08,613
, and some of the videos
are are literal hours.

313
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Some of them are edited to shit
and made to look like super cool

314
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and  really processed and stuff.

315
00:18:14,303 --> 00:18:18,473
But what you see is that process.

316
00:18:18,538 --> 00:18:23,013
and it becomes a lot more
attainable for people.

317
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Denise: Yeah.

318
00:18:23,808 --> 00:18:24,378
Brad Frost: Yeah.

319
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That's like the, the, the creative act.

320
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I, I call it like creative exhaust.

321
00:18:28,648 --> 00:18:30,658
It's like, it's not the finished piece.

322
00:18:30,658 --> 00:18:31,948
It's, it's the exhaust.

323
00:18:31,948 --> 00:18:36,418
It's all of this sort of fumes,
the byproducts of that thing.

324
00:18:36,628 --> 00:18:38,668
That all has a lot of value.

325
00:18:39,478 --> 00:18:43,558
And I think that that's really
fascinating, but I think like kind

326
00:18:43,558 --> 00:18:48,298
of bringing it back to like, how do
you sort of shake a bunch of people

327
00:18:48,298 --> 00:18:50,518
who just seem to be sleepwalking

328
00:18:51,058 --> 00:18:54,868
or just outwardly, like,
hostile to learning new

329
00:18:54,868 --> 00:18:56,908
things or having an open mind.

330
00:18:57,748 --> 00:18:59,968
I think that there's something there.

331
00:19:00,037 --> 00:19:05,667
I don't know what the answers are, but
what I found, and I'm curious to get your

332
00:19:05,667 --> 00:19:09,897
take on this, because I've seen you light
up a room full of hundreds of people.

333
00:19:10,737 --> 00:19:11,397
And.

334
00:19:11,937 --> 00:19:18,317
It's freaking amazing, I, I mean that
like it's been a number of years, but

335
00:19:18,317 --> 00:19:24,182
I remember it like it was yesterday,
and I think what happens, and I'm sure

336
00:19:24,182 --> 00:19:27,722
you get a lot of people come up to
you after you give a talk or whatever,

337
00:19:28,352 --> 00:19:29,782
and there's this attraction, right?

338
00:19:29,872 --> 00:19:34,972
people want to be around you, and people
are like, are, are like leaning in

339
00:19:34,972 --> 00:19:43,942
hard whenever you you are demonstrating
a way of being that they were not

340
00:19:44,317 --> 00:19:50,107
up until that moment of hearing you
speak aware of, or they've been aware

341
00:19:50,107 --> 00:19:55,777
of it, but you're giving them somehow
permission to, to be interested,

342
00:19:55,777 --> 00:19:58,597
to be excited, to be enthusiastic.

343
00:19:58,697 --> 00:20:03,257
I hadn't said it out loud until now,
just because like, I've had this idea

344
00:20:03,257 --> 00:20:07,247
for a podcast for a long time and
you're like the first person that

345
00:20:07,247 --> 00:20:09,427
came to my mind . That's the reason.

346
00:20:09,967 --> 00:20:10,957
That's the reason.

347
00:20:10,957 --> 00:20:15,937
It's like when you're out there and
you're living life a certain way, what

348
00:20:17,257 --> 00:20:22,807
you're doing is Whether you're explicitly
doing it or not, you're pulling people

349
00:20:22,807 --> 00:20:25,387
along and you're bringing people up

350
00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:25,920
Denise: Mm-hmm.

351
00:20:26,047 --> 00:20:30,667
Brad Frost: closer to where
you're at rather than you getting

352
00:20:30,667 --> 00:20:32,877
dragged down into the dredges.

353
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:33,320
Denise: Yeah.

354
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:34,100
Yeah.

355
00:20:34,150 --> 00:20:35,530
Thank you for saying that.

356
00:20:35,615 --> 00:20:42,600
I, I think too, one of the things that
I, I really focus on, and again, this

357
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,430
is something that I, I can't help.

358
00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:45,060
It's just.

359
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:46,440
innate to me.

360
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:51,901
I just, I literally can't stop myself,
but it's like, don't wanna just model

361
00:20:52,861 --> 00:20:55,291
this kind of way of being for people.

362
00:20:55,561 --> 00:20:58,801
But I also want to give people tools.

363
00:21:00,061 --> 00:21:04,741
when people are like, I, I, I knew
that there was something else, but

364
00:21:04,741 --> 00:21:07,231
I didn't know quite what it was.

365
00:21:07,231 --> 00:21:09,721
And you kind of helped
me put my finger on it.

366
00:21:10,081 --> 00:21:11,311
And I'm like, yes.

367
00:21:11,311 --> 00:21:12,601
And I'm thinking to myself, yes.

368
00:21:12,811 --> 00:21:16,981
And I hope I gave you some
tools to be able to actually

369
00:21:16,981 --> 00:21:18,901
start on the process yourself.

370
00:21:19,171 --> 00:21:19,831
Because I

371
00:21:19,993 --> 00:21:20,283
Brad Frost: Yeah.

372
00:21:20,341 --> 00:21:26,581
Denise: you, one of my pet peeves as
a speaker is going places and going to

373
00:21:26,581 --> 00:21:31,021
conferences and listening to speakers,
and they're like this pie in the sky

374
00:21:31,021 --> 00:21:34,411
thing and this wonderful thing and that
wonderful thing and the other thing.

375
00:21:34,411 --> 00:21:36,361
And I'm like, great, how do I do it?

376
00:21:36,361 --> 00:21:39,726
And then they get off the stage
and I'm like, are you, you, what?

377
00:21:40,726 --> 00:21:41,866
You gonna say all this?

378
00:21:41,866 --> 00:21:45,616
And you're not gonna give me
anything tangible or concrete of

379
00:21:45,616 --> 00:21:47,716
how I can possibly access that?

380
00:21:48,603 --> 00:21:53,873
and I have to say that in terms of
like with my own creative endeavors

381
00:21:53,873 --> 00:21:58,943
or, craft, DYI, et cetera, et cetera
creative expression and stuff like that.

382
00:21:59,183 --> 00:22:04,613
I mean, of the reason that we're even
talking to each other right now is

383
00:22:04,613 --> 00:22:11,333
because I started making soap and then
I ended up teaching soap making because

384
00:22:11,333 --> 00:22:12,653
people were like, how do you make soap?

385
00:22:12,653 --> 00:22:14,003
I was like, it's super easy.

386
00:22:14,273 --> 00:22:16,853
Come over to my house and
I'll show you how to do it.

387
00:22:17,993 --> 00:22:21,353
And then I started teaching soap
making and then I started teaching

388
00:22:21,353 --> 00:22:25,163
it to like larger classes of
like 20, 24 people, whatever.

389
00:22:25,973 --> 00:22:31,823
And then doing that led me to be
able to, um, I was also incidentally

390
00:22:31,883 --> 00:22:36,473
doing tech work and doing like HTML
and like front end development stuff.

391
00:22:37,253 --> 00:22:40,763
And so then I started teaching
HTML and front end development

392
00:22:40,763 --> 00:22:45,353
stuff because was doing it and then
I had this teaching experience.

393
00:22:46,073 --> 00:22:46,793
Then I'm teaching

394
00:22:46,890 --> 00:22:47,180
Brad Frost: Yeah.

395
00:22:47,686 --> 00:22:48,796
Denise: at a conference.

396
00:22:49,291 --> 00:22:55,531
I see, I see Molly Hoch on front end
development and all of the stuff that

397
00:22:55,531 --> 00:22:59,551
I taught, because I taught from her, I
taught from some of her books was like,

398
00:22:59,641 --> 00:23:04,991
oh, I wanna be on a stage doing this
in classroom teaching like 24 people.

399
00:23:05,902 --> 00:23:07,372
just went from there.

400
00:23:08,372 --> 00:23:15,932
I feel like some ways for me personally
in this incarnation of who I am and

401
00:23:15,932 --> 00:23:21,812
how I am on the planet at this point
in time, it is unconscionable for me

402
00:23:22,052 --> 00:23:26,022
to know something that I think can
help somebody and not teach them.

403
00:23:27,022 --> 00:23:27,312
Brad Frost: Yeah,

404
00:23:28,172 --> 00:23:28,462
Yeah.

405
00:23:29,092 --> 00:23:31,417
it's it's an, it's a real instinct.

406
00:23:31,697 --> 00:23:31,937
Denise: And

407
00:23:32,364 --> 00:23:32,724
Brad Frost: Yep.

408
00:23:33,407 --> 00:23:37,817
Denise: the funny thing is is that
of course now I have a folder for

409
00:23:37,817 --> 00:23:39,737
all of my um, cast iron stuff.

410
00:23:40,937 --> 00:23:47,507
one of the things that I did was as
soon as I I posted on Facebook, um,

411
00:23:47,597 --> 00:23:51,437
in one of my groups, I'm in these buy
nothing, I'm gonna buy nothing group.

412
00:23:52,337 --> 00:23:52,697
And I

413
00:23:52,734 --> 00:23:52,934
Brad Frost: yeah,

414
00:23:53,447 --> 00:23:55,757
Denise: is anybody trying
to get rid of cast iron?

415
00:23:55,757 --> 00:24:00,047
And a bunch of people were like, probably
five people were like, you know what?

416
00:24:00,107 --> 00:24:03,947
I don't wanna get rid of any, but I,
I wanna learn how to take care of it.

417
00:24:04,907 --> 00:24:06,917
And I was like, I should do a workshop.

418
00:24:07,337 --> 00:24:09,137
Like the, the very first thing.

419
00:24:09,317 --> 00:24:14,147
And so I sat down and I sketched out,
did bullet points and everything.

420
00:24:14,267 --> 00:24:20,057
And I sketched out a cast iron workshop
and like the timing and how long it

421
00:24:20,057 --> 00:24:22,007
would take and what would they need.

422
00:24:22,007 --> 00:24:22,157
And

423
00:24:22,294 --> 00:24:22,904
Brad Frost: beautiful,

424
00:24:23,057 --> 00:24:25,502
Denise: a little kit they do.

425
00:24:25,552 --> 00:24:28,792
We'll actually go through the
process of making the seasoning sell.

426
00:24:29,272 --> 00:24:31,612
They'll have their own little
tin that they go home with,

427
00:24:32,422 --> 00:24:33,502
you know, rubber gloves.

428
00:24:33,502 --> 00:24:37,134
and And it was like, I swear to
God, it was like the easiest thing.

429
00:24:37,134 --> 00:24:38,874
It was like falling off of a log.

430
00:24:39,441 --> 00:24:39,856
Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah.

431
00:24:40,044 --> 00:24:40,404
Denise: it was

432
00:24:40,404 --> 00:24:44,694
crazy how easy it was like my brain
just went, oh, okay, and this and

433
00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:45,954
this and this, and the timing.

434
00:24:45,954 --> 00:24:46,044
And

435
00:24:46,186 --> 00:24:46,426
Brad Frost: yep.

436
00:24:46,674 --> 00:24:51,774
Denise: be like an hour and a half, and
while that's happening, it was nuts.

437
00:24:51,774 --> 00:24:52,914
I was just like, wow.

438
00:24:53,034 --> 00:24:54,954
All right, brain, go on with the bad self.

439
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,795
Brad Frost: I mean, it's
those conditions, right?

440
00:24:58,095 --> 00:25:02,295
Because what you're describing is
one, like a long history, whether

441
00:25:02,295 --> 00:25:07,295
it's SOAP HTML or whatever,
you have these superpowers.

442
00:25:07,305 --> 00:25:08,685
You have these gifts.

443
00:25:08,775 --> 00:25:10,455
You're aware of those gifts.

444
00:25:10,935 --> 00:25:16,480
You're also self-aware of this innate
pull to, to teach and to share.

445
00:25:17,315 --> 00:25:21,905
And then You also have this emerging
thing, and you're going through the

446
00:25:21,905 --> 00:25:28,415
process yourself, and there's this
real drive, or, or instant knee

447
00:25:28,415 --> 00:25:32,135
jerk reaction to go, I'm into this.

448
00:25:32,675 --> 00:25:38,005
Other people are signaling that
they could also be into this

449
00:25:38,515 --> 00:25:40,465
and I am just gonna go for it.

450
00:25:40,465 --> 00:25:42,585
So there's this kind of stew happening.

451
00:25:42,585 --> 00:25:43,875
You're learning a new thing.

452
00:25:43,875 --> 00:25:44,985
You're figuring it out.

453
00:25:44,985 --> 00:25:46,365
You're trying, you're failing.

454
00:25:46,605 --> 00:25:49,215
You kind of cross a, a certain threshold.

455
00:25:49,875 --> 00:25:54,225
And then as soon as like you
have something, you're like,

456
00:25:54,225 --> 00:25:55,635
well, that's, that's valuable.

457
00:25:55,635 --> 00:25:57,735
And other people can, can benefit from it.

458
00:25:57,735 --> 00:25:59,565
So, so let's make it happen.

459
00:25:59,858 --> 00:26:03,278
Denise: Honestly, if people had just
said here, I have a pan for you.

460
00:26:03,278 --> 00:26:04,358
I'd been like, great.

461
00:26:04,688 --> 00:26:12,068
But the fact that five people I, I'd love
to learn how to take care of my castine.

462
00:26:12,068 --> 00:26:12,968
I don't really know.

463
00:26:12,968 --> 00:26:17,992
And I was like, I used to be one of those
people, I mean, I remember I actually had

464
00:26:17,992 --> 00:26:23,302
taken a soap making class, know, years
before I started teaching it myself.

465
00:26:23,662 --> 00:26:26,392
And I took a soap making
class and I failed miserably.

466
00:26:27,232 --> 00:26:29,272
My soap did not come out from that class.

467
00:26:29,272 --> 00:26:30,832
It actually ended up separating.

468
00:26:31,132 --> 00:26:32,092
I realize now.

469
00:26:32,902 --> 00:26:38,212
actually, I have to say that that failure
was really helpful because it made it so

470
00:26:38,212 --> 00:26:46,799
that when I finally went back to trying to
make soap again and was successful, I was

471
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:51,269
like, oh, okay, this was the problem, you

472
00:26:51,451 --> 00:26:51,741
Brad Frost: Yeah,

473
00:26:51,779 --> 00:26:51,989
Denise: didn't

474
00:26:52,211 --> 00:26:52,501
Brad Frost: Yeah.

475
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:55,189
Denise: We didn't mix  the
mixture long enough for it

476
00:26:55,189 --> 00:26:56,929
to actually  set up properly.

477
00:26:57,289 --> 00:27:00,679
When I started doing it, I was like,
okay, this is what I'm gonna do to make

478
00:27:00,679 --> 00:27:02,029
sure that that doesn't happen again.

479
00:27:02,089 --> 00:27:06,769
And then when I did my soap making
classes, I was like, this is what you do.

480
00:27:06,769 --> 00:27:09,599
And I was Like I will literally
not let you walk out of this

481
00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:13,469
class unless you're soap traces
and comes, gets the right thing.

482
00:27:13,469 --> 00:27:17,609
Like, if we need to be here for another
hour, we will be, but you're not walking

483
00:27:17,609 --> 00:27:21,959
outta here without experiencing what
that looks like and knowing what it

484
00:27:21,959 --> 00:27:25,349
feels like so that when you do it at
home, you know exactly what you're doing.

485
00:27:25,668 --> 00:27:27,408
Because that's how I get down.

486
00:27:27,486 --> 00:27:31,506
Brad Frost: That's an interesting
thing too, to be able to take, your

487
00:27:31,506 --> 00:27:37,226
personal experience with failure or
you could extrapolate that out to

488
00:27:37,496 --> 00:27:45,086
just hardship in general and to use
that experience to make sure that

489
00:27:45,086 --> 00:27:47,126
other people don't go through the same

490
00:27:47,559 --> 00:27:47,779
Denise: But

491
00:27:47,846 --> 00:27:51,806
Brad Frost: and that you feel an
opportunity, but also a responsibility

492
00:27:52,046 --> 00:27:55,121
to make sure that other people
don't suffer the same thing.

493
00:27:55,219 --> 00:27:58,014
Denise: and it's really true  I'm
so glad you, you picked up on that.

494
00:27:58,014 --> 00:28:01,496
That has actually been a
through line in my whole career.

495
00:28:01,921 --> 00:28:06,391
as a instructor or teacher
or trainer or whatever?

496
00:28:06,601 --> 00:28:11,435
When I was teaching HTML, I started
getting frustrated when my students

497
00:28:11,435 --> 00:28:12,785
were like, it doesn't work.

498
00:28:13,145 --> 00:28:14,405
Oh, I'm, I failed.

499
00:28:14,405 --> 00:28:15,095
It's awful.

500
00:28:15,095 --> 00:28:16,835
And I'd be like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, Time out.

501
00:28:17,705 --> 00:28:18,275
Did You do so

502
00:28:18,392 --> 00:28:18,682
Brad Frost: Yeah.

503
00:28:18,875 --> 00:28:19,025
Denise: They'd

504
00:28:19,122 --> 00:28:19,242
Brad Frost: I.

505
00:28:19,895 --> 00:28:22,895
Denise: uh, well, I was like,
did you check so and so?

506
00:28:23,135 --> 00:28:23,555
They're like, yeah.

507
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:24,870
like, did you check so and so?

508
00:28:24,935 --> 00:28:25,205
Yeah.

509
00:28:26,195 --> 00:28:33,145
that process of having a standard
way of troubleshooting ended up being

510
00:28:33,145 --> 00:28:37,195
the basis of my first book,
The CSS Detective Guide.

511
00:28:38,385 --> 00:28:44,080
And when I met the woman who was my,
my acquisitions editor, and she was

512
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,310
like, well, I have this idea for a book
about like, you know, basically like.

513
00:28:48,639 --> 00:28:52,449
Solving the mysteries of CSS
'cause so many people like will do

514
00:28:52,449 --> 00:28:53,919
stuff in CSS and it doesn't work.

515
00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:54,369
And why?

516
00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:57,309
And so kinda like, need like
a troubleshooting guide.

517
00:28:57,309 --> 00:28:58,659
I was like, I could write that too.

518
00:28:58,839 --> 00:28:59,709
Was like, really?

519
00:28:59,709 --> 00:29:04,419
And I was like, I used to teach, I had
like a troubleshooting, like worksheet.

520
00:29:05,139 --> 00:29:06,939
I had for my students.

521
00:29:06,969 --> 00:29:10,209
Like, okay, if this, you've got
a problem, check here, check in

522
00:29:10,209 --> 00:29:13,389
the head, check this check to make
sure that your quote is finished.

523
00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:14,949
Check to make sure your
bracket's finished.

524
00:29:15,282 --> 00:29:17,652
And she was like, oh yeah, let's talk.

525
00:29:17,682 --> 00:29:18,672
And that's, that

526
00:29:19,744 --> 00:29:20,644
Brad Frost: You already wrote it.

527
00:29:20,697 --> 00:29:24,492
Denise: I was like, no, I actually, it's
funny, like that check that that worksheet

528
00:29:24,492 --> 00:29:28,752
is like, like two pages in chapter one,

529
00:29:28,829 --> 00:29:29,289
Brad Frost: Oh, sure.

530
00:29:29,399 --> 00:29:30,064
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

531
00:29:30,192 --> 00:29:30,342
Denise: is like,

532
00:29:30,749 --> 00:29:33,996
Brad Frost: But in essence, you
have demonstrated, that thing, I've

533
00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:35,976
already got the the nugget of it.

534
00:29:36,524 --> 00:29:38,684
Denise: I've already got like
the, like the, the kernel of it.

535
00:29:39,105 --> 00:29:45,437
and then I would have to say that thing
that got me into doing creativity was

536
00:29:45,737 --> 00:29:51,297
when I was writing the CSS detective
guide and I was struggling so much.

537
00:29:51,657 --> 00:29:53,767
trying to keep motivated
and all this stuff.

538
00:29:53,767 --> 00:29:56,257
I actually stopped working on
one of my chapters because my

539
00:29:56,257 --> 00:29:59,647
inner critic was so strong that
I couldn't even write anything.

540
00:30:00,016 --> 00:30:04,756
and I literally stopped what I was
doing and went and looked up articles

541
00:30:04,756 --> 00:30:06,766
on like how to silence the inner critic.

542
00:30:07,096 --> 00:30:12,436
And came across an article that said
something, she had this quote from SARC or

543
00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:19,336
something like, banish your inner critic,
uh, to go hunt rare lemurs in Madagascar.

544
00:30:19,361 --> 00:30:22,426
And I was like, banish
your inner critic, word.

545
00:30:23,426 --> 00:30:23,716
Brad Frost: Yeah.

546
00:30:24,064 --> 00:30:25,864
Denise: up like not long about that.

547
00:30:25,864 --> 00:30:28,834
After that I came up and I was like,
it would be great to teach like a

548
00:30:28,834 --> 00:30:34,539
workshop on how to like banish your inner
critic And silence your inner critic.

549
00:30:35,644 --> 00:30:37,324
And that was in 2010.

550
00:30:37,504 --> 00:30:38,434
Can you believe that,

551
00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:39,700
And like that,

552
00:30:39,917 --> 00:30:40,577
Brad Frost: Beautiful.

553
00:30:40,810 --> 00:30:41,890
Denise: kind of through line.

554
00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:46,180
And so like when I did, I was like,
Oh, there's this whole, there are

555
00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:49,870
all of these things that I did when
I finally started doing research.

556
00:30:49,870 --> 00:30:55,079
It turned out that a lot of the things
that I was doing intuitively were actual

557
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:56,219
practices

558
00:30:57,636 --> 00:30:58,116
Brad Frost: Yes.

559
00:30:58,414 --> 00:31:00,959
Denise: creativity and sunrise
in your inner critic and all

560
00:31:01,001 --> 00:31:01,221
Brad Frost: Yes.

561
00:31:01,993 --> 00:31:05,653
Denise: it again, like you said, it
was the failure, it was the struggle,

562
00:31:05,653 --> 00:31:12,083
it was the difficult thing that got
me to the thing that ended up being

563
00:31:12,833 --> 00:31:14,393
the thing that I was successful with.

564
00:31:14,948 --> 00:31:20,408
Brad Frost: To be able to flip something
on its head and make lemonade out of it.

565
00:31:21,107 --> 00:31:27,677
There's really something to the fact that
you're doing this through the lens of

566
00:31:28,187 --> 00:31:34,777
not just how do I solve this problem for
myself, but a real theme here is as soon

567
00:31:34,777 --> 00:31:39,184
as you're like, ah, there's something,
or like, oh, I got through this, the

568
00:31:39,184 --> 00:31:44,464
immediate instinct, is to go, Oh, let me
do a workshop on this or ultimately like,

569
00:31:44,464 --> 00:31:46,654
let me like write a book on the topic.

570
00:31:47,074 --> 00:31:52,910
And I think that there's something really
important there because there's a few

571
00:31:52,910 --> 00:31:57,620
different kinds of creative people on
the planet, you probably know this a

572
00:31:57,620 --> 00:32:01,500
lot better than me, but there's, there
are the hoarders and the people that

573
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:06,550
are,  so up their own ass than they're,
you know, egocentric and whatever, and

574
00:32:06,550 --> 00:32:13,075
protective, and it's like that whole
bullshit hero narrative and all of that

575
00:32:13,075 --> 00:32:23,035
stuff, and then there are the people who,
by way of their work, understand that

576
00:32:23,035 --> 00:32:29,155
bringing more people into these ideas and
disseminating them out into the world and

577
00:32:29,515 --> 00:32:34,310
teaching people the tools of the trade,
just like you said, giving people those

578
00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:40,360
tools, giving people the peek behind the
curtain, whatever it is, is so much more

579
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,595
satisfying Then doing the work yourself.

580
00:32:45,745 --> 00:32:47,515
You make that one bar of soap.

581
00:32:47,845 --> 00:32:49,825
Okay, like, that's great.

582
00:32:49,825 --> 00:32:53,395
I'll use this until it's gone
and then I'll make another one.

583
00:32:53,425 --> 00:32:53,845
Right?

584
00:32:53,845 --> 00:32:55,525
it's like, that's, that's great.

585
00:32:55,820 --> 00:32:57,565
I, I'll make this website.

586
00:32:57,775 --> 00:33:00,265
And oh, I like learned
some things along the way.

587
00:33:00,445 --> 00:33:02,395
And like, I'll make the
next website better.

588
00:33:02,875 --> 00:33:08,815
There's a finite number of websites
that that I can make on this planet.

589
00:33:09,325 --> 00:33:15,515
But that ability to just go a little,
a little further out and say, I'm just

590
00:33:15,515 --> 00:33:20,135
gonna put this here, put this idea
out here, put this thing I learned

591
00:33:20,135 --> 00:33:27,155
out here, put this like whatever, you
just see this cascade of, of, of just.

592
00:33:27,815 --> 00:33:29,375
It's, it's staggering.

593
00:33:29,375 --> 00:33:33,755
And like, when we're talking about
like the web, like that's why I love

594
00:33:33,755 --> 00:33:40,445
this thing so much all these years
later is that you're like I. idea, like

595
00:33:40,445 --> 00:33:42,755
literally travels around the world.

596
00:33:43,865 --> 00:33:48,405
And then you're like, Oh, it becomes
addicting, but in the best, in most

597
00:33:48,405 --> 00:33:53,755
positive way possible, because  it's
creativity plus community, plus

598
00:33:53,755 --> 00:33:58,585
this this kind of like shared
vulnerability slash we're working

599
00:33:58,585 --> 00:34:02,695
through it and we're building on each
other's idea we're collaborating,

600
00:34:03,175 --> 00:34:10,375
E even if it's not explicitly called
collaboration in that same way, um, but

601
00:34:10,405 --> 00:34:16,405
just holy smokes, like I write an article,
someone else rebounds that article.

602
00:34:16,405 --> 00:34:19,645
It's like, here's my thoughts on
it and I freaking love it whenever

603
00:34:19,645 --> 00:34:21,865
they're like disagreeing and stuff too.

604
00:34:21,865 --> 00:34:24,805
But it's like, here's what I do instead
and I'm like, yeah, like that's.

605
00:34:25,255 --> 00:34:26,485
That's it right there.

606
00:34:26,485 --> 00:34:28,435
It's like we we're just all kind

607
00:34:29,193 --> 00:34:30,063
Denise: Building on

608
00:34:30,213 --> 00:34:31,203
top of each other.

609
00:34:31,263 --> 00:34:32,253
Exactly.

610
00:34:32,925 --> 00:34:33,215
Brad Frost: Yeah.

611
00:34:33,423 --> 00:34:33,963
Denise: love that.

612
00:34:33,963 --> 00:34:39,303
Like I remember once somebody said back
in the soap making days and they were

613
00:34:39,303 --> 00:34:43,983
like, aren't you worried that you're
like creating competition for yourself?

614
00:34:43,983 --> 00:34:51,993
And I was just like, I was like,
okay, first of all, no, because Even

615
00:34:51,993 --> 00:34:57,299
if somebody exact same recipe of
soap as I did, wouldn't be the same.

616
00:34:57,299 --> 00:34:58,954
It wouldn't have the same feel to it.

617
00:34:58,959 --> 00:35:00,959
It wouldn't, was like, number one.

618
00:35:00,959 --> 00:35:05,489
Number two, soap is
something that you consume.

619
00:35:05,969 --> 00:35:06,659
You go through it.

620
00:35:06,689 --> 00:35:09,689
That I was like, I buy soap
from other soap makers.

621
00:35:09,689 --> 00:35:11,069
I, I don't wanna just use myself.

622
00:35:11,069 --> 00:35:12,719
It's like eating your
own cooking all the time.

623
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,909
You're like, I don't wanna just
eat my own food all the time.

624
00:35:14,909 --> 00:35:18,029
I like eating other people's food
'cause it tastes different than mine.

625
00:35:18,756 --> 00:35:19,046
Brad Frost: Yeah.

626
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:20,399
Denise: and not only that,

627
00:35:20,451 --> 00:35:20,751
Brad Frost: Yeah.

628
00:35:20,909 --> 00:35:23,369
Denise: like, you know, if
other people wanna, I mean, they

629
00:35:23,369 --> 00:35:24,719
could teach it and everything.

630
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,479
I was like, but I'm really
good at teaching this.

631
00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:33,476
Here's an interesting thing that's, that's
kind of funny too, So when I decided

632
00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:38,876
to stop teaching soap making outta my
house and wanted to it to more people.

633
00:35:39,356 --> 00:35:44,106
I was living in Seattle at the time and I
went to the UDub extension, which is like

634
00:35:44,106 --> 00:35:47,106
the adult education extension that they

635
00:35:47,188 --> 00:35:47,608
Brad Frost: Yeah.

636
00:35:47,616 --> 00:35:49,356
Denise: night classes and stuff like that.

637
00:35:49,746 --> 00:35:50,886
And I went there and I.

638
00:35:51,178 --> 00:35:51,598
Brad Frost: Beautiful.

639
00:35:52,056 --> 00:35:56,196
Denise: a application to teach my soap
making class through that and everything.

640
00:35:57,396 --> 00:35:59,226
you know, during the interview,
they basically were just

641
00:35:59,226 --> 00:36:00,396
like, here are all the rules.

642
00:36:00,396 --> 00:36:01,716
Will you abide by the rules?

643
00:36:01,716 --> 00:36:02,646
And I was like, sure.

644
00:36:02,646 --> 00:36:04,506
And they're like, nice
to have you on board.

645
00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:05,916
And I was like, okay, great.

646
00:36:05,916 --> 00:36:10,316
Well, I would like to have
two sessions of the class.

647
00:36:11,006 --> 00:36:13,436
And they were like, oh, yeah.

648
00:36:13,496 --> 00:36:15,206
You know, when you're starting out.

649
00:36:15,626 --> 00:36:20,846
What we recommend is that you just have
one, you just have one session and you

650
00:36:20,846 --> 00:36:25,076
don't have two sessions because, if
it doesn't take on and not that many

651
00:36:25,076 --> 00:36:29,996
people sign up, it's better to just have
like one course, that's like partially

652
00:36:29,996 --> 00:36:35,186
full or almost full than like two
courses that aren't very full at all.

653
00:36:36,056 --> 00:36:36,296
And I

654
00:36:36,296 --> 00:36:37,796
remember thinking to myself.

655
00:36:38,126 --> 00:36:40,496
you have no idea how popular
this class is gonna be.

656
00:36:41,426 --> 00:36:44,456
But I was like, I was
like, okay, that's cool.

657
00:36:44,486 --> 00:36:46,016
You know, whatever, we'll just do one.

658
00:36:46,106 --> 00:36:48,206
And they're like, yeah, you know,
we'll just like, we'll see, and

659
00:36:48,206 --> 00:36:50,786
I can see if it builds up in
popularity and all this stuff.

660
00:36:50,786 --> 00:36:52,047
I was thinking, mm-hmm.

661
00:36:52,856 --> 00:36:55,826
They put it into, they had, they
used to do like this kind of like

662
00:36:55,826 --> 00:37:00,466
newspaper flyer thing that came out
for the new quarter and everything.

663
00:37:01,126 --> 00:37:01,276
It

664
00:37:01,523 --> 00:37:01,733
Brad Frost: Yep.

665
00:37:02,536 --> 00:37:04,246
Denise: Three weeks after it came out.

666
00:37:04,936 --> 00:37:07,456
was before the quarter started,
three weeks after it came out,

667
00:37:07,456 --> 00:37:11,596
I get a call from the woman who
was the director of the A SUW.

668
00:37:11,596 --> 00:37:12,886
She was like, Hey, Denise, Tiffany.

669
00:37:12,886 --> 00:37:14,206
And I was like, Tiffany
girl, what's going on?

670
00:37:14,206 --> 00:37:21,746
And she was like, well,  your class is
full has 16 people on the waiting list.

671
00:37:22,076 --> 00:37:24,296
Did you wanna open up another session?

672
00:37:24,356 --> 00:37:25,766
And I was like, yep.

673
00:37:25,826 --> 00:37:29,456
And basically from that point
on, I always had two sessions of

674
00:37:29,456 --> 00:37:31,136
the class and they always filled.

675
00:37:31,136 --> 00:37:34,346
And I always had people on the
waiting list, always, every time.

676
00:37:35,471 --> 00:37:36,206
it was like, because I

677
00:37:36,328 --> 00:37:36,938
Brad Frost: Beautiful.

678
00:37:37,046 --> 00:37:40,796
Denise: was like, it was just, it was
so timely and it was so like perfect.

679
00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:44,726
So it's interesting too when you say,
oh, you know, for the people who are

680
00:37:44,726 --> 00:37:48,416
just like this all to myself and I
don't wanna, and somebody's gonna

681
00:37:48,416 --> 00:37:52,542
steal it and all that stuff, it's
just like, much more could you do and

682
00:37:52,542 --> 00:37:54,552
how much more could you grow things?

683
00:37:54,927 --> 00:37:57,147
If you share it, right?

684
00:37:57,147 --> 00:37:57,627
Like it's,

685
00:37:57,839 --> 00:37:58,129
Brad Frost: Yeah.

686
00:37:58,437 --> 00:38:03,357
Denise: of the thing that that
helps just the thing itself

687
00:38:03,357 --> 00:38:04,887
grow, but it helps you grow.

688
00:38:05,418 --> 00:38:10,728
I started teaching and speaking and
stuff because that the very first

689
00:38:10,728 --> 00:38:13,418
class that I taught to the 24 people.

690
00:38:14,118 --> 00:38:17,238
The way I describe it to people is
like, you know how when you jump on

691
00:38:17,238 --> 00:38:21,528
a trampoline and you jump up and that
there's that beautiful moment where

692
00:38:21,528 --> 00:38:25,188
you go up in the air and you hit the
highest point and then you come down and

693
00:38:25,428 --> 00:38:31,463
the higher you jump, the more that you
can really feel that I was like, I felt

694
00:38:31,463 --> 00:38:36,233
like when the class started was when I
jumped off of the trampoline and when

695
00:38:36,233 --> 00:38:38,183
the LA class ended was when I landed.

696
00:38:39,053 --> 00:38:45,350
I. it was like that feeling of like
elation and bouyance and, joy and

697
00:38:45,590 --> 00:38:49,760
lightness and brightness and everything.

698
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,860
When I landed, it was just
like, I have to do that.

699
00:38:52,860 --> 00:38:53,160
again.

700
00:38:53,850 --> 00:38:54,450
That was amazing.

701
00:38:54,983 --> 00:38:58,163
And I feel like that still.

702
00:38:58,463 --> 00:39:02,933
Like when I speak and when I go and
I do a workshop, I still have that

703
00:39:02,933 --> 00:39:10,673
feeling of buoyancy and, and rightness
and and do you know what I mean?

704
00:39:11,073 --> 00:39:12,003
Brad Frost: Boy do I,

705
00:39:12,981 --> 00:39:15,621
Denise: So maybe that's why
it's like my first inclination

706
00:39:15,621 --> 00:39:17,151
is like, I'll make a workshop

707
00:39:18,151 --> 00:39:19,811
Brad Frost: I mean,  that's beautiful.

708
00:39:19,841 --> 00:39:25,726
Like, I, I love that visual of the
trampoline,  and I think once you

709
00:39:25,726 --> 00:39:34,006
experience that, that real feeling
of flow and fulfillment and like,

710
00:39:34,006 --> 00:39:36,346
this is exactly as it needs to be.

711
00:39:36,866 --> 00:39:41,576
That's such a potent and powerful
experience, 'cause once you

712
00:39:41,576 --> 00:39:47,216
have that, you know it's there,
and you go looking for it,

713
00:39:47,329 --> 00:39:47,649
Denise: what's

714
00:39:47,786 --> 00:39:49,501
Brad Frost: and yeah,

715
00:39:49,514 --> 00:39:49,864
Denise: right?

716
00:39:50,251 --> 00:39:56,841
Brad Frost: and, That's what I want with
this show, 'cause a a lot of people I

717
00:39:56,841 --> 00:40:00,871
think will look at people like you or
look at people like me,  it ends up

718
00:40:00,871 --> 00:40:02,461
being communicated in different ways.

719
00:40:02,461 --> 00:40:04,711
There's some sort of
like, what are you doing?

720
00:40:04,711 --> 00:40:08,431
Like, I don't, I don't really get
this, but like, I see you and you

721
00:40:08,431 --> 00:40:09,871
seem to be having a good time.

722
00:40:10,561 --> 00:40:11,611
Something like that.

723
00:40:11,611 --> 00:40:11,941
Right.

724
00:40:12,361 --> 00:40:18,118
And, and I think that those
trampoline Zenith moments are

725
00:40:18,118 --> 00:40:21,418
available to everyone and.

726
00:40:21,883 --> 00:40:28,723
Enough people, I think, haven't read
your book and they talk themselves

727
00:40:28,723 --> 00:40:32,143
out of things and they don't put
themselves in situations, right?

728
00:40:32,323 --> 00:40:36,463
Because that requires a certain amount
of vulnerability that requires a leaning

729
00:40:36,463 --> 00:40:41,383
in and what I tend to see with a lot
of folks, even creative professionals,

730
00:40:41,383 --> 00:40:45,363
professional designers,  they're like,
Oh, I, I couldn't possibly, right?

731
00:40:45,363 --> 00:40:52,263
It's it's this like total you are shutting
the door just as soon as it's presented

732
00:40:52,263 --> 00:40:56,523
to it's like, just think about it even
for a second, just consider it for a

733
00:40:56,523 --> 00:41:03,003
half a second and like bust through that
knee jerk reaction of like, I don't know.

734
00:41:03,003 --> 00:41:04,743
That's that's unfamiliar.

735
00:41:04,743 --> 00:41:05,403
That's scary.

736
00:41:05,403 --> 00:41:06,273
That's whatever.

737
00:41:06,723 --> 00:41:07,143
Right?

738
00:41:07,623 --> 00:41:12,483
And because when you follow it and
one when you sort of allow yourself

739
00:41:12,483 --> 00:41:19,283
to open the door to that curiosity and
That interest in that pursuit, that's

740
00:41:19,913 --> 00:41:22,433
that high point of the trampoline.

741
00:41:22,583 --> 00:41:29,263
Like you get there eventually, but you
have to put yourself in situations that

742
00:41:29,473 --> 00:41:33,018
can give you the ability to have that.

743
00:41:33,018 --> 00:41:37,308
I kind of try to pick at it in just
conversations that I have, it does just

744
00:41:37,308 --> 00:41:39,588
kind of seem like a lot of people just.

745
00:41:40,728 --> 00:41:46,698
expect it to just fall into their lap or
for it to just show up or reveal itself.

746
00:41:47,298 --> 00:41:50,628
And it's like, nah, dude, you
gotta, you gotta go find it.

747
00:41:51,408 --> 00:41:52,398
You gotta, you gotta go.

748
00:41:52,548 --> 00:41:53,358
You gotta do it.

749
00:41:53,405 --> 00:41:56,105
Denise: I mean, I feel like it's
kind of multiple parts, right?

750
00:41:56,155 --> 00:42:00,115
Sometimes things do fall in
your lap, but I also think

751
00:42:00,407 --> 00:42:00,647
Brad Frost: Sure.

752
00:42:00,805 --> 00:42:06,935
Denise: the more you pay attention
yourself, your process, your interests.

753
00:42:07,224 --> 00:42:14,059
What feels right, then the easier
for you to recognize something that

754
00:42:14,449 --> 00:42:19,309
comes across your path you can be
like, Oh, this is one of those things.

755
00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:21,499
This has a spark of opportunity.

756
00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:21,829
in it.

757
00:42:22,133 --> 00:42:27,563
I was at South by Southwest when I
met my acquisitions editor and I met

758
00:42:27,563 --> 00:42:35,483
her 'cause she was had, um, friend of
mine, she was his editor and so I ran

759
00:42:35,483 --> 00:42:37,403
into them and he introduced me to her.

760
00:42:37,682 --> 00:42:40,742
two days previous to running into her.

761
00:42:40,772 --> 00:42:45,662
I was talking to a friend and I was
actually pathetic and pitiful and

762
00:42:45,662 --> 00:42:51,002
lamenting and whining and I was like,
I just wanna speak at web conferences.

763
00:42:51,122 --> 00:42:53,672
I don't know why I can't
speak at web conferences.

764
00:42:53,672 --> 00:42:55,622
I'll be so good of a speaker.

765
00:42:55,952 --> 00:42:57,002
Why can't I just do that?

766
00:42:58,065 --> 00:43:01,815
most of the people I know who speak
at web conferences have a book.

767
00:43:02,231 --> 00:43:05,161
dude, I was like, the only book
that I could write is a book on

768
00:43:05,161 --> 00:43:08,611
HTML, and Lord knows the world
doesn't need another one of those.

769
00:43:09,331 --> 00:43:13,561
And she was like, listen, I'm just
telling you what I've observed.

770
00:43:13,801 --> 00:43:15,711
And I was just like, well, point taken.

771
00:43:15,711 --> 00:43:16,101
Thank you.

772
00:43:16,101 --> 00:43:17,421
Appreciate your input.

773
00:43:18,231 --> 00:43:21,681
Two days later, I'm on the stairs.

774
00:43:21,681 --> 00:43:23,691
I run into Wendy Sharp.

775
00:43:24,568 --> 00:43:26,668
she was like, oh, we're
always looking for authors.

776
00:43:26,668 --> 00:43:29,218
And I was like, oh yeah, I could
like write a book on stuff.

777
00:43:29,338 --> 00:43:29,788
He was like, what?

778
00:43:29,788 --> 00:43:30,028
And I was

779
00:43:30,028 --> 00:43:33,808
like, well, I have this idea about like
talking about this, like weight loss.

780
00:43:33,976 --> 00:43:34,666
We do tech books.

781
00:43:34,666 --> 00:43:35,386
I was like, right.

782
00:43:35,776 --> 00:43:38,596
I used to teach web design and web
development, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

783
00:43:38,596 --> 00:43:42,136
And she was like, have an idea about
this book about troubleshooting CSS.

784
00:43:42,136 --> 00:43:44,146
And I was like, I could write that book.

785
00:43:44,416 --> 00:43:44,866
now.

786
00:43:45,541 --> 00:43:50,641
Had I not had the conversation with my
friend two days ago, I might not have

787
00:43:50,641 --> 00:43:54,391
even been primed mentally to try  to say

788
00:43:54,568 --> 00:43:54,788
Brad Frost: Yep.

789
00:43:54,901 --> 00:43:56,011
Denise: about writing a book.

790
00:43:56,491 --> 00:43:56,911
Right?

791
00:43:57,748 --> 00:43:57,968
Brad Frost: Yep.

792
00:43:57,973 --> 00:43:58,043
Yep.

793
00:43:58,561 --> 00:43:59,161
Denise: you know what I mean?

794
00:43:59,161 --> 00:44:01,261
So did it fall into my lap?

795
00:44:01,621 --> 00:44:07,841
Kind of Did I have a process of making it
clear to me that that was an opportunity?

796
00:44:07,841 --> 00:44:11,971
when I recognized that I saw it, when
she said that I was like, Oh me, me.

797
00:44:12,691 --> 00:44:13,351
I'll write a book.

798
00:44:13,561 --> 00:44:13,951
Me.

799
00:44:14,123 --> 00:44:14,363
Brad Frost: Yeah.

800
00:44:14,491 --> 00:44:15,001
Denise: please.

801
00:44:15,097 --> 00:44:17,417
Brad Frost: that priming  is fantastic.

802
00:44:17,447 --> 00:44:21,387
Like, it's we feel it
in our consciousness.

803
00:44:22,152 --> 00:44:27,372
Or, or a lot of times those things
that do feel like serendipity, right?

804
00:44:28,016 --> 00:44:32,306
it's because we passed that billboard,
it's because we heard that thing, or

805
00:44:32,306 --> 00:44:35,816
it's because we read that article,
or it's because we did this thing.

806
00:44:36,506 --> 00:44:42,086
And that stuff matters, and I've
been thinking about it a lot.

807
00:44:42,236 --> 00:44:48,596
Recently, just because of it goes both
ways that psychological priming right

808
00:44:48,866 --> 00:44:55,556
when all you hear and all that's around
you and all the news says and all that

809
00:44:55,556 --> 00:44:57,716
the just sort of general zeitgeist.

810
00:44:58,166 --> 00:45:03,266
Is negativity, is threat,
is fear, is whatever.

811
00:45:03,626 --> 00:45:07,841
When things happen, go,
Ah, ah, there it is!

812
00:45:07,851 --> 00:45:09,801
We notice that, right?

813
00:45:10,461 --> 00:45:15,431
And so, one of the things that I am,
I'm contemplating, and I know that

814
00:45:15,441 --> 00:45:19,851
we're all struggling right now, and
maybe we can maybe use that as an

815
00:45:19,851 --> 00:45:25,611
opportunity to get into that, because
there's this like, total incongruency.

816
00:45:26,091 --> 00:45:31,461
With what we're talking about, and
what this moment in time is seemingly

817
00:45:31,461 --> 00:45:33,291
at this, at this kind of macro level.

818
00:45:33,801 --> 00:45:40,101
And that priming, and that like, the,
the water is poisoned, just the air

819
00:45:40,101 --> 00:45:42,051
is poisoned, the water is poison.

820
00:45:42,051 --> 00:45:49,611
everything that we are just bathing in,
is so unhealthy, and so negative, and

821
00:45:49,661 --> 00:45:52,901
that primes our brains, collectively.

822
00:45:53,471 --> 00:45:57,011
To be looking for threats, to
be more fearful, to be more

823
00:45:57,011 --> 00:45:59,381
disconnected, to be less trusting.

824
00:45:59,531 --> 00:46:01,601
And I find myself, right?

825
00:46:01,631 --> 00:46:05,181
'cause I'm a human being and I,
and I'm susceptible to went to my

826
00:46:05,181 --> 00:46:06,981
niece's basketball game last night.

827
00:46:07,011 --> 00:46:13,415
And I'm like scanning the bleachers just
kind of going, I caught myself doing it.

828
00:46:13,505 --> 00:46:16,475
and I'm just like, there it is,

829
00:46:17,170 --> 00:46:23,525
The, the things that we are primed for,
what our brains are primed for, impacts

830
00:46:23,525 --> 00:46:27,965
how we operate in the world, how we're
thinking, who we're talking to, what

831
00:46:27,965 --> 00:46:35,115
we pick up, what we don't pick up, and
it's just so incredibly toxic, the whole

832
00:46:35,115 --> 00:46:40,171
everything right now, it seems, And
you mentioned this before we started

833
00:46:40,171 --> 00:46:46,501
recording, not jumping into the toxic
river seems to be a pretty sensible,

834
00:46:46,962 --> 00:46:49,782
coping mechanism in this moment in time.

835
00:46:49,782 --> 00:46:50,052
Right.

836
00:46:50,255 --> 00:46:50,675
Denise: right.

837
00:46:51,115 --> 00:46:59,411
I mean, one of the things I, I think
we have to do to maintain our sanity

838
00:46:59,471 --> 00:47:04,651
and to create a barrier between
ourselves and this toxicity is.

839
00:47:04,814 --> 00:47:08,894
how can we create safe
spaces for ourselves?

840
00:47:09,554 --> 00:47:09,884
right?

841
00:47:09,934 --> 00:47:12,064
How can we create sanctuary?

842
00:47:12,332 --> 00:47:16,142
how can we create Safe insulation.

843
00:47:16,577 --> 00:47:25,047
one of the things that I feel that we can
do that with is through community and is

844
00:47:25,047 --> 00:47:27,957
through connecting with other like-minded

845
00:47:28,289 --> 00:47:28,509
Brad Frost: Yes.

846
00:47:29,216 --> 00:47:29,876
Denise: that's how

847
00:47:29,938 --> 00:47:30,158
Brad Frost: yes.

848
00:47:30,236 --> 00:47:34,616
Denise: create kind of mental
and actually even potentially

849
00:47:34,616 --> 00:47:39,006
defacto physical um, and safety

850
00:47:39,121 --> 00:47:40,026
Brad Frost: I love that.

851
00:47:40,182 --> 00:47:44,862
I'm hearing like there's protection
involved and there's creating a

852
00:47:44,862 --> 00:47:47,592
place where, where you have reprieve

853
00:47:48,035 --> 00:47:48,635
Denise: Yes,

854
00:47:48,912 --> 00:47:49,542
Brad Frost: from

855
00:47:49,595 --> 00:47:49,865
Denise: like,

856
00:47:50,112 --> 00:47:50,562
Brad Frost: the,

857
00:47:50,802 --> 00:47:51,342
the mess.

858
00:47:51,455 --> 00:47:54,325
Denise: you did this when
you did your Frostapalooza.

859
00:47:54,755 --> 00:48:01,335
Like, you created this lovely
gathering of like-minded, supportive

860
00:48:01,335 --> 00:48:08,745
people to come together and be in
a celebratory space for a weekend.

861
00:48:09,105 --> 00:48:12,225
And, like, how wonderful and special.

862
00:48:13,125 --> 00:48:13,605
that.

863
00:48:13,915 --> 00:48:18,385
Now is a particularly important
time for us to be seeking out

864
00:48:18,865 --> 00:48:21,475
and, or creating those spaces.

865
00:48:22,271 --> 00:48:27,411
ourselves, for having our own
kind of place of safety and

866
00:48:27,411 --> 00:48:30,261
reprieve and sanctuary, and then.

867
00:48:30,651 --> 00:48:33,951
In a grander sense for,

868
00:48:33,973 --> 00:48:34,513
Brad Frost: Yes.

869
00:48:34,723 --> 00:48:35,173
Yes.

870
00:48:35,331 --> 00:48:35,811
Denise: people.

871
00:48:36,044 --> 00:48:36,494
Brad Frost: Yeah.

872
00:48:36,824 --> 00:48:38,719
A hundred percent agree.

873
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,849
I think a lot of the messaging
I've seen around sort of self

874
00:48:43,849 --> 00:48:50,269
care and stuff like that is it's
really weak sauce in my opinion.

875
00:48:50,359 --> 00:48:50,989
And like,

876
00:48:51,289 --> 00:48:58,584
I am, I am like, so much of it is maybe
once in a while, take a quick step out of

877
00:48:58,584 --> 00:49:03,824
the Toxic River, and like, dry yourself
off before you jump back in, or it's

878
00:49:03,824 --> 00:49:08,534
this like, You build a moat and you,
or or you duck your head in the sand.

879
00:49:08,534 --> 00:49:11,084
And I, I think that's
a bit of a cop out too.

880
00:49:11,744 --> 00:49:16,944
And where I'm starting  to
realize is  the way to fight.

881
00:49:17,394 --> 00:49:22,614
Is through putting love and
positivity out into the world.

882
00:49:22,974 --> 00:49:25,164
And that's not some
hippie dippy shit there.

883
00:49:25,164 --> 00:49:28,914
Like that's like actually like a really
profound, it's really hard to do.

884
00:49:29,484 --> 00:49:32,154
It's, but it's really important work.

885
00:49:32,154 --> 00:49:35,334
So it's like, yes, there's sanctuary,
but there's this, there's this

886
00:49:35,364 --> 00:49:39,984
outwardness to it that isn't just like,
Oh, we're circling the wagons and we

887
00:49:39,984 --> 00:49:42,234
have like our little tribe that's here.

888
00:49:42,474 --> 00:49:43,374
It's like, no, no, no.

889
00:49:43,374 --> 00:49:45,474
We need to like demonstrate.

890
00:49:46,044 --> 00:49:54,309
to others, that there are different ways
of being that reject this, this just

891
00:49:54,309 --> 00:50:03,789
absolute toxic reality that, that I see
everyone in my life consumed by right now.

892
00:50:03,789 --> 00:50:08,289
And, and again, It's, there's no
fault there, but like what I'm

893
00:50:08,289 --> 00:50:11,499
finding is like a  personal mission
as someone who I feel like has like

894
00:50:11,739 --> 00:50:14,169
this perspective and this ability

895
00:50:14,919 --> 00:50:22,209
to exude positivity and to put that stuff
out there, like I feel a real drive and

896
00:50:22,299 --> 00:50:25,569
responsibility, just like you're talking
about with like, with teaching that

897
00:50:25,569 --> 00:50:28,809
instinct, I'm like, my instinct is going.

898
00:50:29,379 --> 00:50:33,039
I'm not gonna get out there
and start railing on things.

899
00:50:33,039 --> 00:50:35,619
That's not going to help the dialogue.

900
00:50:35,619 --> 00:50:36,849
That's not gonna help anything.

901
00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:42,609
I'm going to show another way
of, of existing, of being, of

902
00:50:42,609 --> 00:50:44,739
showing up, of, of fighting.

903
00:50:45,009 --> 00:50:47,829
I'm gonna, I'm gonna
fight with some dollars.

904
00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:51,924
I'm gonna like, Uh, this is, this is
something I'm gonna try this out on you.

905
00:50:51,924 --> 00:50:55,495
And I really wanna get your
take on it because People get

906
00:50:55,495 --> 00:51:00,085
outraged because there's real
harm being done to real people.

907
00:51:00,355 --> 00:51:03,565
So putting your head in the sand
and just being like, I'm not, just

908
00:51:03,565 --> 00:51:04,885
not going to pay attention to it.

909
00:51:05,545 --> 00:51:06,505
It's not acceptable.

910
00:51:06,505 --> 00:51:07,555
That's not an option.

911
00:51:08,215 --> 00:51:13,255
But also, what I've learned is
that these, these ghouls, who are

912
00:51:13,255 --> 00:51:18,875
very deeply psychologically unwell,
attention is their lifeblood.

913
00:51:18,925 --> 00:51:21,085
That is their fuel, right?

914
00:51:21,355 --> 00:51:26,488
So recognizing those two things, real
harm is being done to real people.

915
00:51:26,638 --> 00:51:30,548
And these people want nothing
more than me to just be thinking

916
00:51:30,548 --> 00:51:32,048
about them all day, every day.

917
00:51:32,678 --> 00:51:36,318
And I refuse to give them that fuel.

918
00:51:36,708 --> 00:51:41,718
But I also need to keep and pay
attention to the real harm of the

919
00:51:41,718 --> 00:51:46,028
real thoughts, words, actions . So,
what I'm trying to do and it's very,

920
00:51:46,028 --> 00:51:52,638
very difficult is to create it, create
a separation where I'm able to stay

921
00:51:52,638 --> 00:51:55,848
laser focused on like the real things.

922
00:51:55,908 --> 00:51:57,708
And that's going to help me understand.

923
00:51:58,038 --> 00:51:59,658
Who do I need to donate money to?

924
00:51:59,688 --> 00:52:03,798
Who do I need to show up for support
and, how should I cast my vote?

925
00:52:03,798 --> 00:52:05,928
How should I  exist in my community?

926
00:52:05,928 --> 00:52:09,003
Like, et et cetera, et
cetera, that stuff matters.

927
00:52:09,483 --> 00:52:11,343
But at the same time, I'm
just going to be like.

928
00:52:12,003 --> 00:52:16,503
Yeah, somewhere out there, bad people
are doing bad things, and they could

929
00:52:16,503 --> 00:52:20,163
just kind of stay in amorphous blob
that's like off in the distance

930
00:52:20,163 --> 00:52:21,633
or behind a curtain somewhere.

931
00:52:21,633 --> 00:52:27,213
Like, I'm gonna be over here trying
to care about people and those people

932
00:52:27,213 --> 00:52:28,893
that are having harm done to get them.

933
00:52:29,223 --> 00:52:33,693
But I'm also going to just recognize
this, this negative presence, encounter

934
00:52:33,693 --> 00:52:36,693
it by showing up with positivity.

935
00:52:36,723 --> 00:52:37,533
So I don't know

936
00:52:37,650 --> 00:52:41,117
Denise: what you're doing, and like
I said, you've already started doing

937
00:52:41,117 --> 00:52:44,547
it, before things went very sideways.

938
00:52:44,945 --> 00:52:49,775
but you're also having these
conversations, by talking to people

939
00:52:49,805 --> 00:52:54,710
like me about what it is that makes
them excited to get up in the morning,

940
00:52:55,064 --> 00:52:59,414
through that you are a building community
and you are a building connection and

941
00:52:59,414 --> 00:53:06,579
with your, kind of analogy of poison
river and poison air and everything.

942
00:53:07,579 --> 00:53:12,899
Yes, and there's a source of poison
in the river and if we can get to the

943
00:53:12,899 --> 00:53:16,965
source and neutralize those poisons.

944
00:53:17,265 --> 00:53:18,973
Then we have a chance.

945
00:53:19,225 --> 00:53:24,413
I wanted to say that the second
thing that uh, makes me excited to

946
00:53:24,443 --> 00:53:30,901
wake up is having turned my whole
yard into an edible food forest,

947
00:53:31,367 --> 00:53:34,232
Brad Frost: I am so glad that you
went there 'cause as soon as you're

948
00:53:34,232 --> 00:53:38,342
like, take the poison outta the air,
convert it, like, I'm like, Oh, now

949
00:53:38,342 --> 00:53:40,142
we get to talk about your garden.

950
00:53:40,860 --> 00:53:41,370
Fantastic.

951
00:53:41,648 --> 00:53:48,948
Denise: is a very, very, tangible way
that I am contributing to transforming

952
00:53:48,948 --> 00:53:54,228
or removing toxins from the air
and removing toxins from the earth

953
00:53:54,228 --> 00:53:57,018
and putting back good and necessary

954
00:53:57,018 --> 00:53:58,308
things there.

955
00:53:58,534 --> 00:54:04,664
and also a really good example of
sanctuary and also a. Potentially

956
00:54:04,664 --> 00:54:10,738
having it be a gathering place
for people to experience some

957
00:54:10,738 --> 00:54:13,168
moments of peace, to experience

958
00:54:13,168 --> 00:54:17,368
some moments of wonder, to
experience some moments of learning.

959
00:54:17,477 --> 00:54:22,487
one of the things I love about
gardening is having this opportunity

960
00:54:22,487 --> 00:54:25,167
to learn a thing all the time.

961
00:54:25,167 --> 00:54:32,781
So, you know, every single plant in my
yard, I myself in tank, which means.

962
00:54:33,621 --> 00:54:35,151
went out and I found it.

963
00:54:35,361 --> 00:54:37,581
I, you know, I bought, I sourced it.

964
00:54:37,641 --> 00:54:38,421
I bought it.

965
00:54:38,661 --> 00:54:39,681
I planted it.

966
00:54:39,681 --> 00:54:44,061
I, you know, some things I had in pots for
a long time before they actually went into

967
00:54:44,061 --> 00:54:47,301
the ground into their kind of final place.

968
00:54:47,451 --> 00:54:51,471
And then some things got moved
because it turns out that in the

969
00:54:51,471 --> 00:54:56,841
process of and paying attention and
looking at it, I realized that it

970
00:54:56,841 --> 00:55:00,951
actually wasn't in the right place,
that I didn't put it in a place where

971
00:55:01,071 --> 00:55:02,631
that would allow it to thrive.

972
00:55:03,561 --> 00:55:09,531
And that's also something that I
think is, you know, very valuable

973
00:55:09,531 --> 00:55:13,911
is having time to observe something.

974
00:55:14,361 --> 00:55:20,031
So that you can figure out how to make
the most of it and get the best out of it.

975
00:55:20,465 --> 00:55:27,597
if that's a plant, if that's a person,
if that's a team, so I mean, I think

976
00:55:27,597 --> 00:55:32,337
that that's also a really important,
a really important part of kind of all

977
00:55:32,337 --> 00:55:38,607
of this contributing to encountering
kind of grander level of levels of

978
00:55:38,607 --> 00:55:46,904
toxicity that awareness, being grounded
for yourself then being able to, from

979
00:55:46,904 --> 00:55:52,184
a grounded place, being able to make
observations and then make changes and

980
00:55:52,184 --> 00:55:57,434
take action based on your observations,
I think is a really powerful combination.

981
00:55:58,501 --> 00:55:59,251
Brad Frost: Amazing.

982
00:55:59,752 --> 00:56:02,662
And the end result is this,

983
00:56:03,322 --> 00:56:06,342
I mean, just gorgeous looking
oasis, so it's like, yeah, like,

984
00:56:06,342 --> 00:56:12,672
the before and after is stunning,
is is absolutely stunning, and Shit.

985
00:56:12,672 --> 00:56:15,612
I mean, it looks like it's like
out of a textbook where it's just

986
00:56:15,612 --> 00:56:19,632
like, here's deforestation and then
here's reforestation or whatever.

987
00:56:19,632 --> 00:56:25,902
So it's like, it, it's like very, very
like visceral before and after picture

988
00:56:25,992 --> 00:56:29,142
of like this really lush environment.

989
00:56:29,142 --> 00:56:31,212
And it's just, it's gorgeous.

990
00:56:31,212 --> 00:56:31,992
It's amazing.

991
00:56:32,111 --> 00:56:37,841
Denise: you know, one of my extreme
points of pride with this place is

992
00:56:37,841 --> 00:56:43,901
the fact that most of the materials
are, have all been upcycled.

993
00:56:43,991 --> 00:56:50,681
So I made raised beds out of Oakwood
flooring that came from my neighbor's

994
00:56:50,681 --> 00:56:54,702
house across the street I have a
deck with an outdoor shower and

995
00:56:54,724 --> 00:56:55,174
Brad Frost: Sure.

996
00:56:56,052 --> 00:56:56,532
Denise: in it.

997
00:56:56,802 --> 00:57:01,362
And I really, really wanted that
deck to be made out EPE wood, but

998
00:57:01,512 --> 00:57:04,092
EPE is extraordinarily expensive.

999
00:57:04,166 --> 00:57:09,716
And then I found a guy who had taken
apart his Epay deck and was selling

1000
00:57:09,776 --> 00:57:12,476
the pieces at a fraction of the cost.

1001
00:57:12,536 --> 00:57:19,779
And so I got all this stuff and had folks,
like, sand it down, and, like, make it

1002
00:57:19,809 --> 00:57:21,549
renew and reuse it.

1003
00:57:21,549 --> 00:57:26,555
And so now I have this gorgeous outdoor
shower and deck and actually had enough

1004
00:57:26,555 --> 00:57:31,205
to wrap my, my cement, uh, and tile porch.

1005
00:57:31,205 --> 00:57:33,875
And now my porch is, um, is wood.

1006
00:57:34,505 --> 00:57:40,415
And I mean, just all of these things,
you know, some wood for free, Off of

1007
00:57:40,415 --> 00:57:47,405
Offer Up from this guy who took apart his
mom's cedarwood, cabana in her backyard.

1008
00:57:48,035 --> 00:57:50,405
and was like, hey, if you can
pick it up, come and take it.

1009
00:57:50,435 --> 00:57:53,015
And I was like, I will be there
tomorrow with pickup truck.

1010
00:57:53,742 --> 00:57:54,582
all of this.

1011
00:57:55,017 --> 00:58:00,612
Wouldn't have been possible without, first
of all, creative constraints, second of

1012
00:58:00,612 --> 00:58:03,765
all, without being like, what have I got?

1013
00:58:04,077 --> 00:58:06,567
how can I take this thing that
somebody literally would've

1014
00:58:06,567 --> 00:58:09,567
put in landfill and how can I

1015
00:58:09,567 --> 00:58:09,747
take

1016
00:58:10,074 --> 00:58:10,364
Brad Frost: Yeah,

1017
00:58:10,437 --> 00:58:12,927
Denise: and and make something with it?

1018
00:58:12,927 --> 00:58:18,643
And that's one of the things that I
am so proud of is that these things

1019
00:58:18,643 --> 00:58:20,323
were all going to be thrown away.

1020
00:58:21,523 --> 00:58:21,643
You

1021
00:58:21,950 --> 00:58:22,240
Brad Frost: yeah,

1022
00:58:22,393 --> 00:58:22,873
Denise: And then

1023
00:58:23,010 --> 00:58:23,300
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1024
00:58:23,353 --> 00:58:27,503
Denise: up making this,
this oasis with it.

1025
00:58:28,328 --> 00:58:31,658
what's being at as.

1026
00:58:32,138 --> 00:58:39,128
Not valuable as garbage,
as broken, as unusable.

1027
00:58:39,931 --> 00:58:45,362
And how can reframe that and say,
no, no, we can, we can use this part.

1028
00:58:45,362 --> 00:58:45,572
Okay.

1029
00:58:45,572 --> 00:58:47,012
Maybe that part I can't use.

1030
00:58:47,012 --> 00:58:48,872
Maybe I have to sand it down.

1031
00:58:48,872 --> 00:58:53,852
Maybe I have to cut that part off
'cause that part's too far gone, but

1032
00:58:54,122 --> 00:58:54,242
we

1033
00:58:54,324 --> 00:58:54,684
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1034
00:58:54,722 --> 00:58:57,482
Denise: have a lot we can work with.

1035
00:58:57,482 --> 00:59:00,152
We still have materials that are valuable.

1036
00:59:00,152 --> 00:59:05,312
We still have something
that that can be put to use.

1037
00:59:05,312 --> 00:59:10,070
And if we just look at it properly,
if we put, add a little bit of

1038
00:59:10,070 --> 00:59:15,890
creativity and some ingenuity, We
can figure, how to, we can figure out

1039
00:59:15,890 --> 00:59:18,260
how to nurture and make it gorgeous.

1040
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:23,850
Brad Frost: yeah, not, not just make
it good enough, like literally take it

1041
00:59:24,090 --> 00:59:27,540
way better than it would be otherwise.

1042
00:59:27,540 --> 00:59:27,870
Right.

1043
00:59:28,020 --> 00:59:32,077
And those, Ingredients matter a great deal

1044
00:59:32,396 --> 00:59:37,956
and I I think that's just so so
beautifully said and it really doesn't

1045
00:59:38,136 --> 00:59:43,151
require that much extra work if at all.

1046
00:59:43,691 --> 00:59:47,961
In fact, it's a hell of a lot
easier half the time, right?

1047
00:59:47,961 --> 00:59:50,121
It's certainly cheaper, as you're saying.

1048
00:59:50,281 --> 00:59:53,851
The immediate thing that comes to
mind is like whenever you, you look

1049
00:59:53,851 --> 00:59:58,141
at just the, the stark juxtaposition
of how much it takes to to educate

1050
00:59:58,141 --> 00:59:59,671
someone versus to jail them,

1051
01:00:00,083 --> 01:00:01,943
there's where like the the money is

1052
01:00:02,243 --> 01:00:02,843
is, is

1053
01:00:03,143 --> 01:00:04,313
far better spent.

1054
01:00:04,313 --> 01:00:09,623
the fact that this is just available,
and all it really does is to kind of

1055
01:00:09,623 --> 01:00:12,233
take a bit of a shift in perspective.

1056
01:00:12,263 --> 01:00:16,823
That to me is so incredibly powerful
that is like with the exact same

1057
01:00:16,823 --> 01:00:22,673
materials, with the exact same resources,
infrastructure, people, whatever.

1058
01:00:23,003 --> 01:00:29,423
And that's where that idea of of
vision of being able to imagine, to

1059
01:00:29,423 --> 01:00:31,433
be creative, So I live in Pittsburgh.

1060
01:00:31,433 --> 01:00:32,663
There's all these bridges.

1061
01:00:33,083 --> 01:00:37,094
Anytime there's any sort of thing
about like bike lanes or, or, getting

1062
01:00:37,094 --> 01:00:41,444
rid of any stretch of road in order
to make it a little bit friendlier

1063
01:00:41,444 --> 01:00:45,434
for non-car, it's this big uproar.

1064
01:00:45,434 --> 01:00:46,424
It's this big thing.

1065
01:00:46,724 --> 01:00:50,045
My neighbor was just showing me
Had a rendering of like, what if we

1066
01:00:50,045 --> 01:00:53,435
were to just take one of the bridges
and like turn that into a park?

1067
01:00:53,435 --> 01:00:56,045
And so like, you know, there
was a, a, a really beautiful

1068
01:00:56,045 --> 01:00:58,595
artistic rendering of this thing.

1069
01:00:58,595 --> 01:01:00,545
It would just be a pedestrian bridge.

1070
01:01:00,875 --> 01:01:03,755
It's the bridge right by
the, the baseball stadium.

1071
01:01:03,755 --> 01:01:07,505
So all these people, whenever a baseball
game's happening, all these people are

1072
01:01:07,505 --> 01:01:09,065
walking across that bridge anyways.

1073
01:01:09,065 --> 01:01:11,315
And she's like, just do
that all the time, right?

1074
01:01:11,315 --> 01:01:13,715
And plant some trees and
it'll be freaking great.

1075
01:01:14,047 --> 01:01:15,937
it's a very inexpensive.

1076
01:01:16,537 --> 01:01:21,967
investment, but would radically
transform the, a space that desperately

1077
01:01:22,027 --> 01:01:24,487
needs some, some more green space.

1078
01:01:24,789 --> 01:01:28,149
and it's just like, that's, that's
the kind of thing it's like kind

1079
01:01:28,149 --> 01:01:33,099
of coming back to, it's just like
there's this negativity, lack of

1080
01:01:33,099 --> 01:01:40,847
imagination, lack of, of just can-do
attitude versus the qualities that

1081
01:01:40,847 --> 01:01:43,242
you embody so perfectly, I think,

1082
01:01:43,553 --> 01:01:47,878
I, I feel like that before and
after is just like a real exercise

1083
01:01:47,878 --> 01:01:51,322
in here's what vision Gets to you.

1084
01:01:51,442 --> 01:01:56,782
Here's here's what this this kind of
attitude can yield and I think it's such

1085
01:01:56,782 --> 01:02:02,446
like just a beautiful embodiment of the
spirit of, of the show and what we're

1086
01:02:02,446 --> 01:02:07,686
like, kind of trying to do here is to just
be like, what is that like, after picture

1087
01:02:08,231 --> 01:02:10,691
Can we teach people to be more curious?

1088
01:02:10,691 --> 01:02:15,642
When we look at these moments and
what's in front of us, a lot of times.

1089
01:02:15,882 --> 01:02:19,482
It doesn't necessarily show
itself as, as totally obvious,

1090
01:02:19,725 --> 01:02:21,544
but there's this kind of instinct.

1091
01:02:21,544 --> 01:02:24,491
And again, this is kind of something
that I'm picking at there's this

1092
01:02:24,491 --> 01:02:29,891
instinct that it's like, it's, it seems
like challenging the moment at hand or

1093
01:02:29,891 --> 01:02:32,171
trying to change the moment at hand.

1094
01:02:32,861 --> 01:02:37,820
By way of just, like, trying to, make
people happy or trying to, like, sort

1095
01:02:37,820 --> 01:02:43,350
of promote positivity, or creativity,
or, like, it feels almost insulting,

1096
01:02:43,350 --> 01:02:47,280
especially as, like, real people are,
like, being harmed in this moment, right?

1097
01:02:47,335 --> 01:02:54,529
And so it seems shallow or naive to,
to be like this actually doesn't feel

1098
01:02:54,799 --> 01:02:59,185
like a trite, peace, love, dove, kind
of, like, weird sentiment, but it

1099
01:02:59,185 --> 01:03:03,392
actually feels like more potent and,
and has more, like, gravity than I

1100
01:03:03,392 --> 01:03:05,865
think that I. we, we give it credit for.

1101
01:03:05,895 --> 01:03:08,775
And I don't know, I, I'm kind of,
like, feeling around here, but it's

1102
01:03:08,775 --> 01:03:14,295
like my overwhelming instinct as
I'm like, like, this has to be met

1103
01:03:14,618 --> 01:03:14,858
Denise: I

1104
01:03:14,895 --> 01:03:16,850
Brad Frost: with an equal
and opposite reaction,

1105
01:03:16,898 --> 01:03:17,198
Denise: It

1106
01:03:17,290 --> 01:03:17,610
Brad Frost: I guess.

1107
01:03:17,648 --> 01:03:22,716
Denise: And I, I think, What's happening
in this moment is that people are

1108
01:03:22,716 --> 01:03:24,911
feeling incredibly disempowered.

1109
01:03:25,339 --> 01:03:29,584
having conversations like this, Exposing
your audience to other people who

1110
01:03:29,584 --> 01:03:38,048
are actually doing something and have
kind of tapped into kind of way to

1111
01:03:38,378 --> 01:03:44,982
exist in the world in a more empowered
way will help other people see how

1112
01:03:44,982 --> 01:03:47,682
they can potentially do the right.

1113
01:03:48,072 --> 01:03:48,342
It's

1114
01:03:48,664 --> 01:03:48,954
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1115
01:03:49,182 --> 01:03:52,729
Denise: you glossing over, toxic river.

1116
01:03:52,729 --> 01:03:57,239
It's not what we're doing is we're,
like you said, we're providing a

1117
01:03:57,239 --> 01:03:59,546
counterpoint, then I think that

1118
01:03:59,593 --> 01:04:00,013
Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

1119
01:04:00,446 --> 01:04:07,004
Denise: start to feel empowered in one
area of their life and feel like they,

1120
01:04:07,424 --> 01:04:13,454
they can start to have more agency in
one area of their life, then that can

1121
01:04:13,454 --> 01:04:16,304
potentially spill over into other areas.

1122
01:04:16,758 --> 01:04:22,968
at me, even for myself, I can look outside
to be like, you did that on like a shoes

1123
01:04:23,418 --> 01:04:26,868
string budget with like a skeleton crew.

1124
01:04:27,213 --> 01:04:28,263
You did all of that.

1125
01:04:28,263 --> 01:04:30,423
If you can do that, what else can you do?

1126
01:04:30,453 --> 01:04:32,772
I remember I'm not even
gonna apologize for it.

1127
01:04:32,772 --> 01:04:36,773
I know I keep talking about my, first book
and stuff like that, kind of this lovely

1128
01:04:36,773 --> 01:04:38,663
moment, you know, now that I have this.

1129
01:04:38,693 --> 01:04:44,280
Vantage point of gosh, that was 15
years ago, and so much has happened

1130
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:49,805
since 15 and 16 years ago, but it's
like now I have a really clear, way of

1131
01:04:49,805 --> 01:04:53,165
looking back at this and kind of seeing
all the things that were happening

1132
01:04:53,165 --> 01:04:55,425
that I just couldn't see at the time.

1133
01:04:55,485 --> 01:04:59,169
And, I remember when I was.

1134
01:04:59,345 --> 01:05:04,255
trying to write my book that it was just
like, you know, who am I to write a book?

1135
01:05:04,255 --> 01:05:05,695
Like, who am I to do this?

1136
01:05:05,695 --> 01:05:07,615
And how can I possibly do this?

1137
01:05:07,615 --> 01:05:09,655
And I don't even know if I can.

1138
01:05:10,015 --> 01:05:13,495
And then at the end of it,
when I did it, I was just like,

1139
01:05:13,915 --> 01:05:15,642
Oh my God, I wrote a book.

1140
01:05:15,642 --> 01:05:21,292
Not only did I write a book, but I like
designed like websites as examples,

1141
01:05:21,292 --> 01:05:24,922
which I wasn't even sure if I was
a very good web designer, but I was

1142
01:05:24,922 --> 01:05:28,042
actually able to design these things
and break them and build them and

1143
01:05:28,042 --> 01:05:29,362
write about it in story format.

1144
01:05:29,362 --> 01:05:34,642
I was just like, well, Jesus, if
I can do this, what else can I do?

1145
01:05:35,362 --> 01:05:41,332
the empowerment that I got from being able
to do this thing that I wasn't sure I was

1146
01:05:41,332 --> 01:05:45,622
able to do made it so that it transferred.

1147
01:05:45,622 --> 01:05:50,602
And I was like, if I can do this,
what other thing that I didn't

1148
01:05:50,812 --> 01:05:54,652
think I could do or wasn't sure
I could do, can I actually do?

1149
01:05:54,991 --> 01:05:55,471
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1150
01:05:55,554 --> 01:05:56,124
Denise: feel like

1151
01:05:56,221 --> 01:05:57,391
Brad Frost: Uh, that's beautiful.

1152
01:05:57,549 --> 01:06:02,031
Denise: been kind of a series of in
some cases, exploring and finding out

1153
01:06:02,031 --> 01:06:03,861
like, oh, I didn't know I could do that.

1154
01:06:03,861 --> 01:06:04,701
but I could do that.

1155
01:06:05,013 --> 01:06:07,263
that's kind of again,
like the through line.

1156
01:06:07,923 --> 01:06:12,392
that's, I think, the importance
of getting in touch with, getting

1157
01:06:12,392 --> 01:06:13,922
empowered, finding something.

1158
01:06:14,612 --> 01:06:18,922
Maybe it's not directly doing
something to, you know, dismantle

1159
01:06:19,072 --> 01:06:21,450
the toxic river, maybe it's something

1160
01:06:21,450 --> 01:06:21,900
else.

1161
01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:25,544
But then that will guide you to a
place of inner strength, that you

1162
01:06:25,544 --> 01:06:30,344
didn't know that you had, and that you
could start to address those things.

1163
01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:36,153
Brad Frost: the, the irony is that these
things might seem like it's a, it's

1164
01:06:36,153 --> 01:06:40,760
a distraction or it's trite, or it's
like how in the world is like, screen

1165
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:45,395
printing gonna change the world or
whatever, but it's like, it's the same

1166
01:06:45,395 --> 01:06:48,328
as planning, vegetation you put in your,

1167
01:06:48,638 --> 01:06:52,384
that soaks up the toxicity,
everything is connected.

1168
01:06:52,564 --> 01:06:53,014
Right.

1169
01:06:53,074 --> 01:06:58,294
And, and so there is this, you know, the
ecosystem that is, it's like, Oh, the

1170
01:06:58,294 --> 01:07:02,944
reason why the plants are, are failing
down here is because like, you know, 30

1171
01:07:02,944 --> 01:07:07,324
miles upstream There, you know, there's
this like kind of gross industrial

1172
01:07:07,324 --> 01:07:09,574
plan or whatever, like, so it's all.

1173
01:07:09,904 --> 01:07:13,894
It's all connected, even
if it feels very indirect,

1174
01:07:14,344 --> 01:07:18,694
and it doesn't necessarily feel like
you're, you're fighting things head on.

1175
01:07:18,934 --> 01:07:22,504
That's like a bit of my like
frustration with like, a lot of the

1176
01:07:22,504 --> 01:07:28,114
response to the toxic river is that
it's like, ah, yes, we need to fight

1177
01:07:28,114 --> 01:07:31,744
fire, with, with fire, and we need
to fight everything, like, head on.

1178
01:07:31,924 --> 01:07:37,789
And don't get me wrong, like, they're
absolutely Like, people need to be doing

1179
01:07:37,789 --> 01:07:42,679
that, certain people are wired for that,
and they're like really good at it.

1180
01:07:42,739 --> 01:07:45,349
I learned through the, like,
the last round of this, like,

1181
01:07:45,619 --> 01:07:49,669
I'm actually not wired that way,
like, I'm, I'm not a fighter.

1182
01:07:50,209 --> 01:07:54,879
Like but I think that there's there's
a lot of danger in the, if you're not

1183
01:07:54,879 --> 01:07:59,379
attacking this, if you're not outraged by
this, if you're not addressing it head on.

1184
01:07:59,739 --> 01:08:02,349
Then, uh, you're part of the problem.

1185
01:08:02,769 --> 01:08:07,509
And I think that there's like a lot
of ways that we can, we can show up

1186
01:08:07,599 --> 01:08:14,169
and, and, and counter the negativity
that, that isn't maybe as, as obvious

1187
01:08:14,169 --> 01:08:19,059
as like, I'm gonna go toe to toe
with this, with this issue head on.

1188
01:08:19,059 --> 01:08:22,659
And that stuff that feels like it's
again, like a little like, Oh, I'm

1189
01:08:22,659 --> 01:08:23,979
just tinkering off to the side.

1190
01:08:23,979 --> 01:08:25,119
I love how you said it.

1191
01:08:25,659 --> 01:08:30,594
It's like, what you're doing is
you're cultivating this sense of

1192
01:08:30,594 --> 01:08:36,994
self-empowerment, of this ability,
this, this, attitude that allows you

1193
01:08:36,994 --> 01:08:43,639
to start showing up 'cause literally
once you do it once, obviously, and

1194
01:08:43,729 --> 01:08:46,519
you're the one that wrote the book on
it, but it's like, it's always there.

1195
01:08:46,519 --> 01:08:48,079
But like, it gets easier.

1196
01:08:48,379 --> 01:08:52,219
It gets easier over time with
each rep right with each round.

1197
01:08:52,729 --> 01:08:58,916
By the time you're building a deck for
your hot tub, you're not super worried.

1198
01:08:58,984 --> 01:08:59,374
Denise: right.

1199
01:08:59,486 --> 01:08:59,996
Brad Frost: what I mean?

1200
01:08:59,996 --> 01:09:03,776
Like, it's, it's like, it
gets, it gets easier over time.

1201
01:09:03,776 --> 01:09:08,341
And like, I think like anyone listening
to this, you already have, have these

1202
01:09:08,341 --> 01:09:14,551
wins and you can do a little exercise that
basically is like, just crawl back through

1203
01:09:14,551 --> 01:09:16,651
the last couple years of your life,

1204
01:09:16,874 --> 01:09:17,094
Denise: Yep.

1205
01:09:17,311 --> 01:09:18,391
Brad Frost: done some really.

1206
01:09:18,502 --> 01:09:20,782
important things that
you should be proud of.

1207
01:09:20,782 --> 01:09:24,442
You've built something, you've created
something, you've showed up in a certain

1208
01:09:24,442 --> 01:09:30,013
way, done some sort of charitable deed,
like guarantee you that there's that.

1209
01:09:30,703 --> 01:09:34,963
And then, so the question then
becomes the, just like you, I

1210
01:09:34,963 --> 01:09:37,063
like, I love that through line.

1211
01:09:37,393 --> 01:09:40,183
of your like, co. once you
get it, once you get like,

1212
01:09:40,603 --> 01:09:42,013
Oh, that's the feedback loop.

1213
01:09:42,013 --> 01:09:43,243
Like I could do this.

1214
01:09:43,513 --> 01:09:47,413
I could then extend that to the next
thing and extend that to the next thing.

1215
01:09:47,443 --> 01:09:50,083
Like, that's how you grow.

1216
01:09:50,293 --> 01:09:51,613
That's how you show up.

1217
01:09:51,613 --> 01:09:54,253
That's how you live authentically.

1218
01:09:54,733 --> 01:10:00,043
And in a way that, that kind of snowballs
upon itself in a positive direction.

1219
01:10:00,861 --> 01:10:01,611
Denise: Absolutely,

1220
01:10:02,301 --> 01:10:02,691
percent.

1221
01:10:03,064 --> 01:10:07,714
Brad Frost: perhaps unsurprisingly,
uh, as a musician, I'm always super

1222
01:10:07,714 --> 01:10:12,844
interested in learning about hearing
new music and especially music that

1223
01:10:12,844 --> 01:10:14,254
other people are excited about.

1224
01:10:14,254 --> 01:10:19,264
So what music are you excited
about or that you, that you want

1225
01:10:19,264 --> 01:10:21,334
more people to, to know about?

1226
01:10:21,747 --> 01:10:28,659
Denise: so,  band crush has actually
been going on for the last five years,

1227
01:10:28,886 --> 01:10:32,996
you know how there's sometimes there's
music that you listen to and it's like,

1228
01:10:33,227 --> 01:10:37,847
It's like you just feel like it's got
in a worn blanket it's so soothing and

1229
01:10:37,847 --> 01:10:42,915
calming and my latest group that has
been doing that for me is Moon Child.

1230
01:10:43,313 --> 01:10:44,393
first favorite of

1231
01:10:44,393 --> 01:10:48,503
theirs is called Little Ghost,
the second one, Voyager.

1232
01:10:49,253 --> 01:10:51,173
third one is Plea Please.

1233
01:10:51,173 --> 01:10:55,223
Re, and then the fourth one
after that is their first album.

1234
01:10:55,223 --> 01:10:59,843
so basically, I like all Start with
Little Ghost and then work Your Way, kind

1235
01:10:59,843 --> 01:11:02,093
of just backwards through their albums.

1236
01:11:02,211 --> 01:11:06,323
like soulful and stuff, but, when
you see them, you're just like, these

1237
01:11:06,323 --> 01:11:09,353
people are making this music and it's
just like, yeah, they are, They're

1238
01:11:10,353 --> 01:11:12,453
Brad Frost: Their album art looks amazing.

1239
01:11:12,513 --> 01:11:14,768
Like, it's, it's like,
it's got a whole aesthetic.

1240
01:11:14,951 --> 01:11:15,521
Denise: awesome.

1241
01:11:15,845 --> 01:11:16,455
Brad Frost: Beautiful.

1242
01:11:17,068 --> 01:11:21,988
Denise: three folks and, um,
they're all multi instrumentalists

1243
01:11:22,130 --> 01:11:24,318
It's just warm and great.

1244
01:11:24,648 --> 01:11:31,608
And I love the boy and the harmonies,
everything It's just so, so good.

1245
01:11:31,836 --> 01:11:36,486
go and find some moon child and
listen to it and it'll change

1246
01:11:36,486 --> 01:11:37,691
your life and you're welcome.

1247
01:11:38,026 --> 01:11:38,957
Brad Frost: beautiful.

1248
01:11:38,957 --> 01:11:42,527
that is such a perfect way to end,
so go listen to some Moon Child.

1249
01:11:43,427 --> 01:11:47,320
get inspired, uh, and, and Denise,
one, one last thing is like, where

1250
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:51,100
could people find you or what do you
wanna draw people's attention to of

1251
01:11:51,100 --> 01:11:55,690
like sort of what, what you're up to
besides, or or maybe including your,

1252
01:11:55,690 --> 01:11:58,420
your forthcoming cast iron, uh, class.

1253
01:11:59,898 --> 01:12:03,978
Denise: So, uh, people can
still find me@denisejacobs.com.

1254
01:12:04,308 --> 01:12:09,138
I think the place that I would probably
be posting the most publicly is like

1255
01:12:09,168 --> 01:12:13,488
LinkedIn and maybe potentially some
on Facebook, but not so much anymore,

1256
01:12:13,589 --> 01:12:15,629
and occasionally on Instagram.

1257
01:12:15,989 --> 01:12:21,269
most definitely what you should
do is if you're interested in My

1258
01:12:21,269 --> 01:12:23,789
book, banish Your Inner Critic,
of course, you should get it.

1259
01:12:24,030 --> 01:12:30,951
but also, I have several courses on
LinkedIn Learning, that are fantastic.

1260
01:12:30,951 --> 01:12:35,991
And so, if you have a premium
LinkedIn account, then you should

1261
01:12:35,991 --> 01:12:37,821
be also getting LinkedIn Learning.

1262
01:12:38,061 --> 01:12:41,587
If not, you can always do
courses a la carte, But I have

1263
01:12:41,587 --> 01:12:43,177
a baner in a Critic Course.

1264
01:12:43,327 --> 01:12:47,797
a Creative Collaboration course,
Developing Creativity as a leader.

1265
01:12:48,139 --> 01:12:53,899
the Business case for Creativity,
Unique Ways to Generate Creative Ideas

1266
01:12:53,959 --> 01:12:59,839
and Productive Creativity, well as
Hacking the Creative Brain as part

1267
01:12:59,839 --> 01:13:02,149
of the creativity every day series.

1268
01:13:02,509 --> 01:13:07,802
So all of those courses are
nice digestible ways of, getting

1269
01:13:07,802 --> 01:13:09,512
to know me and my content.

1270
01:13:09,602 --> 01:13:14,258
and then, if you need a great
keynote speaker for your conference

1271
01:13:14,738 --> 01:13:19,898
to talk about creativity and or
the inner critic, I'm your woman

1272
01:13:20,328 --> 01:13:21,558
Brad Frost: And or cast iron

1273
01:13:21,826 --> 01:13:22,516
Denise: And okay,

1274
01:13:22,608 --> 01:13:23,538
Brad Frost: skillets and gardens.

1275
01:13:23,956 --> 01:13:27,346
Denise: I could do like a little,
a little, uh, breakout session on

1276
01:13:27,513 --> 01:13:28,563
Brad Frost: Uh, that's so great.

1277
01:13:28,563 --> 01:13:30,953
Well, thank you so much
for coming on here.

1278
01:13:30,953 --> 01:13:34,733
You were the first person that I'm
like, I need to talk to Denise,

1279
01:13:34,793 --> 01:13:37,373
like I, and I'm so glad that I did

1280
01:13:37,483 --> 01:13:38,383
well, thank you.

1281
01:13:38,383 --> 01:13:39,763
Thanks so much for being here.

1282
01:13:39,773 --> 01:13:40,703
Thanks for listening.

1283
01:13:40,703 --> 01:13:43,623
And, uh, until next time, take care.

1284
01:13:43,623 --> 01:13:44,103
Thanks.

1285
01:13:44,261 --> 01:13:44,591
Denise: Brad.