Brad Frost: Welcome to Wake Up Excited!
In this episode, I talk with Denise Jacobs.
Denise is a creativity evangelist, a speaker, and the author of the
book Banish Your Inner Critic, as well as several web design books.
I've watched Denise on stage unleash her positive energy to an unsuspecting
conference audience, and I very much had her in mind whenever I first hatched
up this idea to put the show together.
We had a great conversation where we discussed restoring cast
iron, connecting past and present passions growth through teaching.
Navigating this current poisonous moment in time.
Denise's incredible backyard garden and empowerment through creativity.
Before we get into this conversation, I just wanted to say that wake
up excited is a labor of love and is totally self-funded.
So if you want to support this show and my work, I'd really love it if
you checked out our online courses about design systems, digital design,
and web development, which you could find at brad frost.com/courses.
All right.
Without further ado, here is my conversation with Denise Jacobs.
Denise, what are you excited about right now?
What has you waking up excited?
Denise: I actually have a few things that are having me wake up excited.
, but the first one that's a tangible thing is I just started,
restoring cast iron, which.
I kind of love, like how obscure that feels.
I think especially for people of a certain age, like in the tech industry
and stuff like that, but I feel like there's been this, you know, especially
with the pandemic and stuff like that, there's definitely been a movement
to get back to things that are more.
tangible and physical that you can do that are more kind of
traditional, type endeavors.
I know during the pandemic, everybody got crazy about making sourdough
bread and, so during Christmas of 2023.
Brad Frost: my
Denise: sister had mentioned something about restoring cast iron and there's
like a method you can use using easy off and putting it in like a black
plastic bag and letting it sit for a few days and it takes off all
the crud and all the old, you know,
Brad Frost: caked-on
Denise: on stuff.
And I had a full set from 12 inches down to six inches uh, cast iron
in like six pieces or something.
And I was like, oh wow, I'd really like to do that because I have
these old pieces and they, they don't seem to like be non-stick
the way cast iron's supposed to be,
I
Brad Frost: Yep.
Denise: it.
And then I thought, oh, for this Christmas I was thinking, oh, maybe
what I'll do is I'll take one of my extra cast iron pans and I'll
refinish it and over for Christmas.
So I did kind of a deep dive looking into stuff.
Started following this guy called Cast Iron Chris on Instagram
and watched his videos, watched some of his stuff on YouTube.
Follow this other guy named Josh Shapiro.
I did it with the easy off, hated it because the stuff didn't come
off and I was like all grumpy.
And so then I went back to the videos and I was like, okay, do I need to make an
The answer to that is no, I didn't need to make an electrolysis tank because one
of the other things that I used to wake up excited to do many moons ago, moon,
is make handmade soap, handmade cold, processed herbal soap, one of the things
that you need to make that is sodium hydroxide, AKA lye, because I make soap,
I literally have just hanging around.
And so one of the methods that you can use is to make what they call a lye bath.
And you put in one pound of lye to five gallons of water.
I was like, well, that's easy.
I got lye.
I happened to have just a pound put it in a bin that I had literally
found on the side of the road.
And I did it and I put the pan that I had been struggling with in there
and like came back the next day and just went and took the crud right off.
And I was like, oh.
And then some more research.
It was like, Hey, you know, you can make this cast iron seasoning mixture with
grape seed oil, sunflower oil and beeswax.
And I was like, well, just literally happened to have these
things lying around as one does.
And so I made some of this, iron seasoning self.
So did the whole process followed it to the letter and everything and came out
the most gorgeous restored cast iron.
I can read the, the, stamps on the back.
Several of my pieces came from my grandmother.
I, I was hooked.
I was hooked.
Brad Frost: amazing.
Denise: HOOKED.
So, I went through and I did my whole set.
And then I was just like, I want to do, I wanna do more.
And so I posted about it on Facebook and a friend was like,
Oh, I have some that you could do.
And I was like, great, bring 'em by.
And then she was like, Oh, and I also saw this, this posting
for these ones for sale.
I was like, great Contacted the guy.
went, have gathered up, I think at this point in time, probably 20.
It's been, a, it's been, I've been, I've done a lot, I keep
doing 'em and they keep coming out.
Perfect.
And look at this, look at this.
Brad Frost: I mean, that looks like, yeah, that,
Denise: this
Brad Frost: am I a pampered chef or, Oh my God.
Denise: so so pretty it's from India and it's got these gorgeous, gorgeous
Brad Frost: Oh, amazing.
I mean, wow.
Denise: Look at this.
Gorgeous.
Brad Frost: Like that, that looks brand new.
Denise: It does.
Brad Frost: That's incredible.
Denise: so I am like deep, I'm deep in the hole now with it.
I just, I love the process.
I love like the whole thing, but I love the product,
They're kind of the same thing.
So it's, in some ways I feel like, well, it's kind of similar to soap in the
respect was kind of like rough stuff.
You don't know what, and then you put it together and you put
the scent and stuff together.
You don't really know how it's gonna come out.
And then it comes out and you're just like, Oh, I made this thing.
I love making things.
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Denise: I showed this to you before, look at how
Brad Frost: Look at that.
Denise: look, how gorgeous,
Brad Frost: I mean, that's amazing.
Denise: and then even a little
Brad Frost: That is incredible.
Denise: Come on.
Brad Frost: Ah, it's beautiful.
Denise: Yeah, I just, I
Brad Frost: That's so good.
Denise: I love making
Brad Frost: products!
It's so good.
just, just a few things just to sort of like play this back.
Denise: my
brother.
Brad Frost: Because there's a lot there.
You're talking about, the tactile aspect of connecting with something
and like the importance of that.
I also think it's freaking amazing that you're able to connect multiple things and
you even said it like many moons ago, you were waking up excited about this thing.
And it sounds like you're not actively doing that soap as much but you're
able to carry that forward like quite literally in these materials that you
still have around so you're connecting these dots between these past and
present passions, which is incredible.
You're bringing in community by going cool, I am excited about this, and I
am wanting more and I want to bring people that same excitement and wanna
bring people closer to this and through the spirit of helping and making
things better and improving something that's old and worth preserving
Denise: right,
Brad Frost: and giving a new life to it.
Denise: right.
Brad Frost: there's like, my God, there's a lot there.
Denise: There's a lot of layers
Brad Frost: It's amazing.
Denise: and, and
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: You'll see in a lot of ways that this is very much
a common thread with me, being being able to take something that.
was.
not wanted, considered not valuable, or trash even, or too much work, or whatever,
and taking it, and being like, oh no,
I find this valuable, and I can make use of it in this way, and
then turning it into something absolutely beautiful and spectacular.
One of the things that I think is very, very
common in our culture sadly starting to be more of a dominant culture globally,
this kind of fast consumption, getting things using them, when they stop
working so well, throwing them away.
I mean, the number of things
Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.
Denise: see being thrown away that look perfectly usable.
Yes.
Last night I was driving home and I stopped because I saw something
on the side of the road in my It was a cotton candy machine.
Like a home cotton candy machine
Brad Frost: A proper.
Denise: the bowl for it was bent first of all, I'm like,
how did you bend it like this?
But they just had it in a box and it's like the whole thing, the
whole mechanism, the whole machine.
you just try to fix this?
Like, this is a whole ass machine, it's not, it wasn't bought to be disposable,
it was bought to be used, the thing I love about the cast iron is, no matter
how jacked up it looks, for the most part, if you strip all the stuff off
and re season it, you're literally, you are like starting from the beginning
and you've got this perfectly service serviceable item that probably has tons
of history, tons of people have touched
it, you know, tons of meals have been eaten at, is nourished countless numbers
of people, families, children, people.
So I think that's really cool.
and I also really love, as a designer, as a musician, as a, all kinds of
things that you've done in your life.
love the process of building mastery of something like the process of
like embarking upon something.
And then learning the tools and learning the actual, substances that
you're working with and learning the thing itself and learning the
processes and, and learning how
I learn, like being aware of how I learn something and, and the
observations and what you take and, oh, okay, that doesn't quite work.
Let me try this.
Um, lemme see what somebody else has done.
Let me, there is, maybe there's a video, maybe there's an article, oh,
there's this, oh, let me try this.
I love that process.
I love it.
And I love, I love like learning a thing
Brad Frost: There's so much there, right?
that's why I think that this matters.
And really is the whole gist of this thing.
Is that there are all of these opportunities around us.
We are so incredibly lucky to have yeah, pick up literally anything like you
said, physical object, hobby, thing to sink your teeth into the possibilities.
are infinite.
At no other point in human history, have we had so much abundance and opportunity?
What's interesting to me, and this is like a little bit of what I'm kind
of picking at with the show, is you don't necessarily feel that that's
shared when you look out in the rest of your community or society writ large.
It's like, you get it.
You're like, oh yeah, like.
Learning stuff, connecting with things, doing stuff, like,
not just throwing shit away.
There's a lot there, and for me, there tends to be, you just see this
chasm between seemingly like how other people are moving through life,
Denise: Mm-hmm
Brad Frost: their, what their vantage point is, and this thing that I
feel pretty strongly inside of me, and I'm curious if you share that.
Denise: Oh my gosh.
Are you kidding?
Like the amount of the sheer lack of curiosity and, willingness or interest in
learning and expanding mind and expanding your, your Perspective and expanding
what you understand or know to be true.
The lack of that that I feel like I see is just, is always like, wow.
And it's also interesting too, because.
I feel like in the industry that we've been in and in the cohorts and circles
that we've been in, there are more people who are not like that, right?
There are more people who are curious, wanna learn and like to think and put
things together and stuff like that, because we wouldn't have been drawn to.
Tech and
Brad Frost: Yep.
Denise: and, and, and coding and development and all of those things.
We wouldn't have been drawn to it because those are the skills that
you need to be a front end developer, backend developer, designer,
Brad Frost: Yep.
Denise: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Like, you need those skills, I follow a guy on Instagram who, um, is an adult
who never really learned how to read.
So he was an illiterate adult and he's teaching himself how to
read and he's teaching himself how to become more literate.
just following him and seeing his struggles and seeing him struggle
through pronouncing words and reading things, and he was like, oh, I wanted
to read Harry Potter, but it's kind of too advanced, and so I'm gonna
have to kind of ratchet back and read something that's not as advanced.
And, for me as
somebody who learned how to read was two, like, I just started reading early and I
just, and I love to read and I love words and I love like all this stuff that is
such a. Polar opposite of my experience.
And I realized that he's not an exception, but there's a
Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.
Denise: huge part of the population who is at that literacy level and all that stuff.
And it's like my heart goes out to them.
'cause I'm just like, reading is so amazing.
And it's so necessary.
It's such a necessary skill.
to think even how a person's life would to, would play out or be structured when
they don't know how to read or they don't have enough reading comprehension to
understand things like agreement or, you
Brad Frost: yes,
Denise: so, or even to fill out a
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: And so it's really interesting to have that kind of expansion of awareness.
Like, wow, this is something that happens, and can I potentially
do to help mitigate that or
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: people in those states.
But I don't know if you can help people when they're incurious.
I don't know if you if
you can,
Brad Frost: I,
Denise: you can
Brad Frost: yeah,
Denise: you can how can you help people
Brad Frost: yeah,
Denise: they're incurious?
how can you help people when they don't seem to be particularly interested in
learning or expanding your worldview
or
Brad Frost: This is, I think, fascinating.
And first of all, I love that story, and that person who is sharing
their journey and back to the word mastery that you said earlier.
They're sharing their journey towards mastery of the English language, right?
And sharing that journey Along the way, just as you're saying, it's like, I love
picking up new things, going through that process and that act of sharing the
hard parts, the going through the falling on your face, the saying, whoops, I'm
trying to read Harry Potter, but I need to walk it back 'cause I'm not there yet.
That is like massively empowering to, one themselves.
But two, to all these other people as well, and that's, it's something
that I think that curiosity can,
be sparked through the process of sharing the, the struggle and the creative act,
because what ends up happening, whenever you just see the finished painting, or
you just feel the final composition, is a bunch of people go, I can't do that.
I can't do that.
I don't know what that look.
So that's what's I think is so incredibly freaking cool about
the world that we operate in now.
And the fact that we have all of these different channels and outlets
YouTube's a freaking miracle, right?
But all of these things, right?
Whether it's Instagram.
Like when you see artists on Instagram, right?
And Like me and my daughter we'll watch these things forever.
, and some of the videos are are literal hours.
Some of them are edited to shit and made to look like super cool
and really processed and stuff.
But what you see is that process.
and it becomes a lot more attainable for people.
Denise: Yeah.
Brad Frost: Yeah.
That's like the, the, the creative act.
I, I call it like creative exhaust.
It's like, it's not the finished piece.
It's, it's the exhaust.
It's all of this sort of fumes, the byproducts of that thing.
That all has a lot of value.
And I think that that's really fascinating, but I think like kind
of bringing it back to like, how do you sort of shake a bunch of people
who just seem to be sleepwalking
or just outwardly, like, hostile to learning new
things or having an open mind.
I think that there's something there.
I don't know what the answers are, but what I found, and I'm curious to get your
take on this, because I've seen you light up a room full of hundreds of people.
And.
It's freaking amazing, I, I mean that like it's been a number of years, but
I remember it like it was yesterday, and I think what happens, and I'm sure
you get a lot of people come up to you after you give a talk or whatever,
and there's this attraction, right?
people want to be around you, and people are like, are, are like leaning in
hard whenever you you are demonstrating a way of being that they were not
up until that moment of hearing you speak aware of, or they've been aware
of it, but you're giving them somehow permission to, to be interested,
to be excited, to be enthusiastic.
I hadn't said it out loud until now, just because like, I've had this idea
for a podcast for a long time and you're like the first person that
came to my mind . That's the reason.
That's the reason.
It's like when you're out there and you're living life a certain way, what
you're doing is Whether you're explicitly doing it or not, you're pulling people
along and you're bringing people up
Denise: Mm-hmm.
Brad Frost: closer to where you're at rather than you getting
dragged down into the dredges.
Denise: Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for saying that.
I, I think too, one of the things that I, I really focus on, and again, this
is something that I, I can't help.
It's just.
innate to me.
I just, I literally can't stop myself, but it's like, don't wanna just model
this kind of way of being for people.
But I also want to give people tools.
when people are like, I, I, I knew that there was something else, but
I didn't know quite what it was.
And you kind of helped me put my finger on it.
And I'm like, yes.
And I'm thinking to myself, yes.
And I hope I gave you some tools to be able to actually
start on the process yourself.
Because I
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: you, one of my pet peeves as a speaker is going places and going to
conferences and listening to speakers, and they're like this pie in the sky
thing and this wonderful thing and that wonderful thing and the other thing.
And I'm like, great, how do I do it?
And then they get off the stage and I'm like, are you, you, what?
You gonna say all this?
And you're not gonna give me anything tangible or concrete of
how I can possibly access that?
and I have to say that in terms of like with my own creative endeavors
or, craft, DYI, et cetera, et cetera creative expression and stuff like that.
I mean, of the reason that we're even talking to each other right now is
because I started making soap and then I ended up teaching soap making because
people were like, how do you make soap?
I was like, it's super easy.
Come over to my house and I'll show you how to do it.
And then I started teaching soap making and then I started teaching
it to like larger classes of like 20, 24 people, whatever.
And then doing that led me to be able to, um, I was also incidentally
doing tech work and doing like HTML and like front end development stuff.
And so then I started teaching HTML and front end development
stuff because was doing it and then I had this teaching experience.
Then I'm teaching
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: at a conference.
I see, I see Molly Hoch on front end development and all of the stuff that
I taught, because I taught from her, I taught from some of her books was like,
oh, I wanna be on a stage doing this in classroom teaching like 24 people.
just went from there.
I feel like some ways for me personally in this incarnation of who I am and
how I am on the planet at this point in time, it is unconscionable for me
to know something that I think can help somebody and not teach them.
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Yeah.
it's it's an, it's a real instinct.
Denise: And
Brad Frost: Yep.
Denise: the funny thing is is that of course now I have a folder for
all of my um, cast iron stuff.
one of the things that I did was as soon as I I posted on Facebook, um,
in one of my groups, I'm in these buy nothing, I'm gonna buy nothing group.
And I
Brad Frost: yeah,
Denise: is anybody trying to get rid of cast iron?
And a bunch of people were like, probably five people were like, you know what?
I don't wanna get rid of any, but I, I wanna learn how to take care of it.
And I was like, I should do a workshop.
Like the, the very first thing.
And so I sat down and I sketched out, did bullet points and everything.
And I sketched out a cast iron workshop and like the timing and how long it
would take and what would they need.
And
Brad Frost: beautiful,
Denise: a little kit they do.
We'll actually go through the process of making the seasoning sell.
They'll have their own little tin that they go home with,
you know, rubber gloves.
and And it was like, I swear to God, it was like the easiest thing.
It was like falling off of a log.
Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah.
Denise: it was
crazy how easy it was like my brain just went, oh, okay, and this and
this and this, and the timing.
And
Brad Frost: yep.
Denise: be like an hour and a half, and while that's happening, it was nuts.
I was just like, wow.
All right, brain, go on with the bad self.
Brad Frost: I mean, it's those conditions, right?
Because what you're describing is one, like a long history, whether
it's SOAP HTML or whatever, you have these superpowers.
You have these gifts.
You're aware of those gifts.
You're also self-aware of this innate pull to, to teach and to share.
And then You also have this emerging thing, and you're going through the
process yourself, and there's this real drive, or, or instant knee
jerk reaction to go, I'm into this.
Other people are signaling that they could also be into this
and I am just gonna go for it.
So there's this kind of stew happening.
You're learning a new thing.
You're figuring it out.
You're trying, you're failing.
You kind of cross a, a certain threshold.
And then as soon as like you have something, you're like,
well, that's, that's valuable.
And other people can, can benefit from it.
So, so let's make it happen.
Denise: Honestly, if people had just said here, I have a pan for you.
I'd been like, great.
But the fact that five people I, I'd love to learn how to take care of my castine.
I don't really know.
And I was like, I used to be one of those people, I mean, I remember I actually had
taken a soap making class, know, years before I started teaching it myself.
And I took a soap making class and I failed miserably.
My soap did not come out from that class.
It actually ended up separating.
I realize now.
actually, I have to say that that failure was really helpful because it made it so
that when I finally went back to trying to make soap again and was successful, I was
like, oh, okay, this was the problem, you
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Denise: didn't
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: We didn't mix the mixture long enough for it
to actually set up properly.
When I started doing it, I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do to make
sure that that doesn't happen again.
And then when I did my soap making classes, I was like, this is what you do.
And I was Like I will literally not let you walk out of this
class unless you're soap traces and comes, gets the right thing.
Like, if we need to be here for another hour, we will be, but you're not walking
outta here without experiencing what that looks like and knowing what it
feels like so that when you do it at home, you know exactly what you're doing.
Because that's how I get down.
Brad Frost: That's an interesting thing too, to be able to take, your
personal experience with failure or you could extrapolate that out to
just hardship in general and to use that experience to make sure that
other people don't go through the same
Denise: But
Brad Frost: and that you feel an opportunity, but also a responsibility
to make sure that other people don't suffer the same thing.
Denise: and it's really true I'm so glad you, you picked up on that.
That has actually been a through line in my whole career.
as a instructor or teacher or trainer or whatever?
When I was teaching HTML, I started getting frustrated when my students
were like, it doesn't work.
Oh, I'm, I failed.
It's awful.
And I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Time out.
Did You do so
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: They'd
Brad Frost: I.
Denise: uh, well, I was like, did you check so and so?
They're like, yeah.
like, did you check so and so?
Yeah.
that process of having a standard way of troubleshooting ended up being
the basis of my first book, The CSS Detective Guide.
And when I met the woman who was my, my acquisitions editor, and she was
like, well, I have this idea for a book about like, you know, basically like.
Solving the mysteries of CSS 'cause so many people like will do
stuff in CSS and it doesn't work.
And why?
And so kinda like, need like a troubleshooting guide.
I was like, I could write that too.
Was like, really?
And I was like, I used to teach, I had like a troubleshooting, like worksheet.
I had for my students.
Like, okay, if this, you've got a problem, check here, check in
the head, check this check to make sure that your quote is finished.
Check to make sure your bracket's finished.
And she was like, oh yeah, let's talk.
And that's, that
Brad Frost: You already wrote it.
Denise: I was like, no, I actually, it's funny, like that check that that worksheet
is like, like two pages in chapter one,
Brad Frost: Oh, sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Denise: is like,
Brad Frost: But in essence, you have demonstrated, that thing, I've
already got the the nugget of it.
Denise: I've already got like the, like the, the kernel of it.
and then I would have to say that thing that got me into doing creativity was
when I was writing the CSS detective guide and I was struggling so much.
trying to keep motivated and all this stuff.
I actually stopped working on one of my chapters because my
inner critic was so strong that I couldn't even write anything.
and I literally stopped what I was doing and went and looked up articles
on like how to silence the inner critic.
And came across an article that said something, she had this quote from SARC or
something like, banish your inner critic, uh, to go hunt rare lemurs in Madagascar.
And I was like, banish your inner critic, word.
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: up like not long about that.
After that I came up and I was like, it would be great to teach like a
workshop on how to like banish your inner critic And silence your inner critic.
And that was in 2010.
Can you believe that,
And like that,
Brad Frost: Beautiful.
Denise: kind of through line.
And so like when I did, I was like, Oh, there's this whole, there are
all of these things that I did when I finally started doing research.
It turned out that a lot of the things that I was doing intuitively were actual
practices
Brad Frost: Yes.
Denise: creativity and sunrise in your inner critic and all
Brad Frost: Yes.
Denise: it again, like you said, it was the failure, it was the struggle,
it was the difficult thing that got me to the thing that ended up being
the thing that I was successful with.
Brad Frost: To be able to flip something on its head and make lemonade out of it.
There's really something to the fact that you're doing this through the lens of
not just how do I solve this problem for myself, but a real theme here is as soon
as you're like, ah, there's something, or like, oh, I got through this, the
immediate instinct, is to go, Oh, let me do a workshop on this or ultimately like,
let me like write a book on the topic.
And I think that there's something really important there because there's a few
different kinds of creative people on the planet, you probably know this a
lot better than me, but there's, there are the hoarders and the people that
are, so up their own ass than they're, you know, egocentric and whatever, and
protective, and it's like that whole bullshit hero narrative and all of that
stuff, and then there are the people who, by way of their work, understand that
bringing more people into these ideas and disseminating them out into the world and
teaching people the tools of the trade, just like you said, giving people those
tools, giving people the peek behind the curtain, whatever it is, is so much more
satisfying Then doing the work yourself.
You make that one bar of soap.
Okay, like, that's great.
I'll use this until it's gone and then I'll make another one.
Right?
it's like, that's, that's great.
I, I'll make this website.
And oh, I like learned some things along the way.
And like, I'll make the next website better.
There's a finite number of websites that that I can make on this planet.
But that ability to just go a little, a little further out and say, I'm just
gonna put this here, put this idea out here, put this thing I learned
out here, put this like whatever, you just see this cascade of, of, of just.
It's, it's staggering.
And like, when we're talking about like the web, like that's why I love
this thing so much all these years later is that you're like I. idea, like
literally travels around the world.
And then you're like, Oh, it becomes addicting, but in the best, in most
positive way possible, because it's creativity plus community, plus
this this kind of like shared vulnerability slash we're working
through it and we're building on each other's idea we're collaborating,
E even if it's not explicitly called collaboration in that same way, um, but
just holy smokes, like I write an article, someone else rebounds that article.
It's like, here's my thoughts on it and I freaking love it whenever
they're like disagreeing and stuff too.
But it's like, here's what I do instead and I'm like, yeah, like that's.
That's it right there.
It's like we we're just all kind
Denise: Building on
top of each other.
Exactly.
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: love that.
Like I remember once somebody said back in the soap making days and they were
like, aren't you worried that you're like creating competition for yourself?
And I was just like, I was like, okay, first of all, no, because Even
if somebody exact same recipe of soap as I did, wouldn't be the same.
It wouldn't have the same feel to it.
It wouldn't, was like, number one.
Number two, soap is something that you consume.
You go through it.
That I was like, I buy soap from other soap makers.
I, I don't wanna just use myself.
It's like eating your own cooking all the time.
You're like, I don't wanna just eat my own food all the time.
I like eating other people's food 'cause it tastes different than mine.
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: and not only that,
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: like, you know, if other people wanna, I mean, they
could teach it and everything.
I was like, but I'm really good at teaching this.
Here's an interesting thing that's, that's kind of funny too, So when I decided
to stop teaching soap making outta my house and wanted to it to more people.
I was living in Seattle at the time and I went to the UDub extension, which is like
the adult education extension that they
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: night classes and stuff like that.
And I went there and I.
Brad Frost: Beautiful.
Denise: a application to teach my soap making class through that and everything.
you know, during the interview, they basically were just
like, here are all the rules.
Will you abide by the rules?
And I was like, sure.
And they're like, nice to have you on board.
And I was like, okay, great.
Well, I would like to have two sessions of the class.
And they were like, oh, yeah.
You know, when you're starting out.
What we recommend is that you just have one, you just have one session and you
don't have two sessions because, if it doesn't take on and not that many
people sign up, it's better to just have like one course, that's like partially
full or almost full than like two courses that aren't very full at all.
And I
remember thinking to myself.
you have no idea how popular this class is gonna be.
But I was like, I was like, okay, that's cool.
You know, whatever, we'll just do one.
And they're like, yeah, you know, we'll just like, we'll see, and
I can see if it builds up in popularity and all this stuff.
I was thinking, mm-hmm.
They put it into, they had, they used to do like this kind of like
newspaper flyer thing that came out for the new quarter and everything.
It
Brad Frost: Yep.
Denise: Three weeks after it came out.
was before the quarter started, three weeks after it came out,
I get a call from the woman who was the director of the A SUW.
She was like, Hey, Denise, Tiffany.
And I was like, Tiffany girl, what's going on?
And she was like, well, your class is full has 16 people on the waiting list.
Did you wanna open up another session?
And I was like, yep.
And basically from that point on, I always had two sessions of
the class and they always filled.
And I always had people on the waiting list, always, every time.
it was like, because I
Brad Frost: Beautiful.
Denise: was like, it was just, it was so timely and it was so like perfect.
So it's interesting too when you say, oh, you know, for the people who are
just like this all to myself and I don't wanna, and somebody's gonna
steal it and all that stuff, it's just like, much more could you do and
how much more could you grow things?
If you share it, right?
Like it's,
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: of the thing that that helps just the thing itself
grow, but it helps you grow.
I started teaching and speaking and stuff because that the very first
class that I taught to the 24 people.
The way I describe it to people is like, you know how when you jump on
a trampoline and you jump up and that there's that beautiful moment where
you go up in the air and you hit the highest point and then you come down and
the higher you jump, the more that you can really feel that I was like, I felt
like when the class started was when I jumped off of the trampoline and when
the LA class ended was when I landed.
I. it was like that feeling of like elation and bouyance and, joy and
lightness and brightness and everything.
When I landed, it was just like, I have to do that.
again.
That was amazing.
And I feel like that still.
Like when I speak and when I go and I do a workshop, I still have that
feeling of buoyancy and, and rightness and and do you know what I mean?
Brad Frost: Boy do I,
Denise: So maybe that's why it's like my first inclination
is like, I'll make a workshop
Brad Frost: I mean, that's beautiful.
Like, I, I love that visual of the trampoline, and I think once you
experience that, that real feeling of flow and fulfillment and like,
this is exactly as it needs to be.
That's such a potent and powerful experience, 'cause once you
have that, you know it's there, and you go looking for it,
Denise: what's
Brad Frost: and yeah,
Denise: right?
Brad Frost: and, That's what I want with this show, 'cause a a lot of people I
think will look at people like you or look at people like me, it ends up
being communicated in different ways.
There's some sort of like, what are you doing?
Like, I don't, I don't really get this, but like, I see you and you
seem to be having a good time.
Something like that.
Right.
And, and I think that those trampoline Zenith moments are
available to everyone and.
Enough people, I think, haven't read your book and they talk themselves
out of things and they don't put themselves in situations, right?
Because that requires a certain amount of vulnerability that requires a leaning
in and what I tend to see with a lot of folks, even creative professionals,
professional designers, they're like, Oh, I, I couldn't possibly, right?
It's it's this like total you are shutting the door just as soon as it's presented
to it's like, just think about it even for a second, just consider it for a
half a second and like bust through that knee jerk reaction of like, I don't know.
That's that's unfamiliar.
That's scary.
That's whatever.
Right?
And because when you follow it and one when you sort of allow yourself
to open the door to that curiosity and That interest in that pursuit, that's
that high point of the trampoline.
Like you get there eventually, but you have to put yourself in situations that
can give you the ability to have that.
I kind of try to pick at it in just conversations that I have, it does just
kind of seem like a lot of people just.
expect it to just fall into their lap or for it to just show up or reveal itself.
And it's like, nah, dude, you gotta, you gotta go find it.
You gotta, you gotta go.
You gotta do it.
Denise: I mean, I feel like it's kind of multiple parts, right?
Sometimes things do fall in your lap, but I also think
Brad Frost: Sure.
Denise: the more you pay attention yourself, your process, your interests.
What feels right, then the easier for you to recognize something that
comes across your path you can be like, Oh, this is one of those things.
This has a spark of opportunity.
in it.
I was at South by Southwest when I met my acquisitions editor and I met
her 'cause she was had, um, friend of mine, she was his editor and so I ran
into them and he introduced me to her.
two days previous to running into her.
I was talking to a friend and I was actually pathetic and pitiful and
lamenting and whining and I was like, I just wanna speak at web conferences.
I don't know why I can't speak at web conferences.
I'll be so good of a speaker.
Why can't I just do that?
most of the people I know who speak at web conferences have a book.
dude, I was like, the only book that I could write is a book on
HTML, and Lord knows the world doesn't need another one of those.
And she was like, listen, I'm just telling you what I've observed.
And I was just like, well, point taken.
Thank you.
Appreciate your input.
Two days later, I'm on the stairs.
I run into Wendy Sharp.
she was like, oh, we're always looking for authors.
And I was like, oh yeah, I could like write a book on stuff.
He was like, what?
And I was
like, well, I have this idea about like talking about this, like weight loss.
We do tech books.
I was like, right.
I used to teach web design and web development, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And she was like, have an idea about this book about troubleshooting CSS.
And I was like, I could write that book.
now.
Had I not had the conversation with my friend two days ago, I might not have
even been primed mentally to try to say
Brad Frost: Yep.
Denise: about writing a book.
Right?
Brad Frost: Yep.
Yep.
Denise: you know what I mean?
So did it fall into my lap?
Kind of Did I have a process of making it clear to me that that was an opportunity?
when I recognized that I saw it, when she said that I was like, Oh me, me.
I'll write a book.
Me.
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: please.
Brad Frost: that priming is fantastic.
Like, it's we feel it in our consciousness.
Or, or a lot of times those things that do feel like serendipity, right?
it's because we passed that billboard, it's because we heard that thing, or
it's because we read that article, or it's because we did this thing.
And that stuff matters, and I've been thinking about it a lot.
Recently, just because of it goes both ways that psychological priming right
when all you hear and all that's around you and all the news says and all that
the just sort of general zeitgeist.
Is negativity, is threat, is fear, is whatever.
When things happen, go, Ah, ah, there it is!
We notice that, right?
And so, one of the things that I am, I'm contemplating, and I know that
we're all struggling right now, and maybe we can maybe use that as an
opportunity to get into that, because there's this like, total incongruency.
With what we're talking about, and what this moment in time is seemingly
at this, at this kind of macro level.
And that priming, and that like, the, the water is poisoned, just the air
is poisoned, the water is poison.
everything that we are just bathing in, is so unhealthy, and so negative, and
that primes our brains, collectively.
To be looking for threats, to be more fearful, to be more
disconnected, to be less trusting.
And I find myself, right?
'cause I'm a human being and I, and I'm susceptible to went to my
niece's basketball game last night.
And I'm like scanning the bleachers just kind of going, I caught myself doing it.
and I'm just like, there it is,
The, the things that we are primed for, what our brains are primed for, impacts
how we operate in the world, how we're thinking, who we're talking to, what
we pick up, what we don't pick up, and it's just so incredibly toxic, the whole
everything right now, it seems, And you mentioned this before we started
recording, not jumping into the toxic river seems to be a pretty sensible,
coping mechanism in this moment in time.
Right.
Denise: right.
I mean, one of the things I, I think we have to do to maintain our sanity
and to create a barrier between ourselves and this toxicity is.
how can we create safe spaces for ourselves?
right?
How can we create sanctuary?
how can we create Safe insulation.
one of the things that I feel that we can do that with is through community and is
through connecting with other like-minded
Brad Frost: Yes.
Denise: that's how
Brad Frost: yes.
Denise: create kind of mental and actually even potentially
defacto physical um, and safety
Brad Frost: I love that.
I'm hearing like there's protection involved and there's creating a
place where, where you have reprieve
Denise: Yes,
Brad Frost: from
Denise: like,
Brad Frost: the,
the mess.
Denise: you did this when you did your Frostapalooza.
Like, you created this lovely gathering of like-minded, supportive
people to come together and be in a celebratory space for a weekend.
And, like, how wonderful and special.
that.
Now is a particularly important time for us to be seeking out
and, or creating those spaces.
ourselves, for having our own kind of place of safety and
reprieve and sanctuary, and then.
In a grander sense for,
Brad Frost: Yes.
Yes.
Denise: people.
Brad Frost: Yeah.
A hundred percent agree.
I think a lot of the messaging I've seen around sort of self
care and stuff like that is it's really weak sauce in my opinion.
And like,
I am, I am like, so much of it is maybe once in a while, take a quick step out of
the Toxic River, and like, dry yourself off before you jump back in, or it's
this like, You build a moat and you, or or you duck your head in the sand.
And I, I think that's a bit of a cop out too.
And where I'm starting to realize is the way to fight.
Is through putting love and positivity out into the world.
And that's not some hippie dippy shit there.
Like that's like actually like a really profound, it's really hard to do.
It's, but it's really important work.
So it's like, yes, there's sanctuary, but there's this, there's this
outwardness to it that isn't just like, Oh, we're circling the wagons and we
have like our little tribe that's here.
It's like, no, no, no.
We need to like demonstrate.
to others, that there are different ways of being that reject this, this just
absolute toxic reality that, that I see everyone in my life consumed by right now.
And, and again, It's, there's no fault there, but like what I'm
finding is like a personal mission as someone who I feel like has like
this perspective and this ability
to exude positivity and to put that stuff out there, like I feel a real drive and
responsibility, just like you're talking about with like, with teaching that
instinct, I'm like, my instinct is going.
I'm not gonna get out there and start railing on things.
That's not going to help the dialogue.
That's not gonna help anything.
I'm going to show another way of, of existing, of being, of
showing up, of, of fighting.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna fight with some dollars.
I'm gonna like, Uh, this is, this is something I'm gonna try this out on you.
And I really wanna get your take on it because People get
outraged because there's real harm being done to real people.
So putting your head in the sand and just being like, I'm not, just
not going to pay attention to it.
It's not acceptable.
That's not an option.
But also, what I've learned is that these, these ghouls, who are
very deeply psychologically unwell, attention is their lifeblood.
That is their fuel, right?
So recognizing those two things, real harm is being done to real people.
And these people want nothing more than me to just be thinking
about them all day, every day.
And I refuse to give them that fuel.
But I also need to keep and pay attention to the real harm of the
real thoughts, words, actions . So, what I'm trying to do and it's very,
very difficult is to create it, create a separation where I'm able to stay
laser focused on like the real things.
And that's going to help me understand.
Who do I need to donate money to?
Who do I need to show up for support and, how should I cast my vote?
How should I exist in my community?
Like, et et cetera, et cetera, that stuff matters.
But at the same time, I'm just going to be like.
Yeah, somewhere out there, bad people are doing bad things, and they could
just kind of stay in amorphous blob that's like off in the distance
or behind a curtain somewhere.
Like, I'm gonna be over here trying to care about people and those people
that are having harm done to get them.
But I'm also going to just recognize this, this negative presence, encounter
it by showing up with positivity.
So I don't know
Denise: what you're doing, and like I said, you've already started doing
it, before things went very sideways.
but you're also having these conversations, by talking to people
like me about what it is that makes them excited to get up in the morning,
through that you are a building community and you are a building connection and
with your, kind of analogy of poison river and poison air and everything.
Yes, and there's a source of poison in the river and if we can get to the
source and neutralize those poisons.
Then we have a chance.
I wanted to say that the second thing that uh, makes me excited to
wake up is having turned my whole yard into an edible food forest,
Brad Frost: I am so glad that you went there 'cause as soon as you're
like, take the poison outta the air, convert it, like, I'm like, Oh, now
we get to talk about your garden.
Fantastic.
Denise: is a very, very, tangible way that I am contributing to transforming
or removing toxins from the air and removing toxins from the earth
and putting back good and necessary
things there.
and also a really good example of sanctuary and also a. Potentially
having it be a gathering place for people to experience some
moments of peace, to experience
some moments of wonder, to experience some moments of learning.
one of the things I love about gardening is having this opportunity
to learn a thing all the time.
So, you know, every single plant in my yard, I myself in tank, which means.
went out and I found it.
I, you know, I bought, I sourced it.
I bought it.
I planted it.
I, you know, some things I had in pots for a long time before they actually went into
the ground into their kind of final place.
And then some things got moved because it turns out that in the
process of and paying attention and looking at it, I realized that it
actually wasn't in the right place, that I didn't put it in a place where
that would allow it to thrive.
And that's also something that I think is, you know, very valuable
is having time to observe something.
So that you can figure out how to make the most of it and get the best out of it.
if that's a plant, if that's a person, if that's a team, so I mean, I think
that that's also a really important, a really important part of kind of all
of this contributing to encountering kind of grander level of levels of
toxicity that awareness, being grounded for yourself then being able to, from
a grounded place, being able to make observations and then make changes and
take action based on your observations, I think is a really powerful combination.
Brad Frost: Amazing.
And the end result is this,
I mean, just gorgeous looking oasis, so it's like, yeah, like,
the before and after is stunning, is is absolutely stunning, and Shit.
I mean, it looks like it's like out of a textbook where it's just
like, here's deforestation and then here's reforestation or whatever.
So it's like, it, it's like very, very like visceral before and after picture
of like this really lush environment.
And it's just, it's gorgeous.
It's amazing.
Denise: you know, one of my extreme points of pride with this place is
the fact that most of the materials are, have all been upcycled.
So I made raised beds out of Oakwood flooring that came from my neighbor's
house across the street I have a deck with an outdoor shower and
Brad Frost: Sure.
Denise: in it.
And I really, really wanted that deck to be made out EPE wood, but
EPE is extraordinarily expensive.
And then I found a guy who had taken apart his Epay deck and was selling
the pieces at a fraction of the cost.
And so I got all this stuff and had folks, like, sand it down, and, like, make it
renew and reuse it.
And so now I have this gorgeous outdoor shower and deck and actually had enough
to wrap my, my cement, uh, and tile porch.
And now my porch is, um, is wood.
And I mean, just all of these things, you know, some wood for free, Off of
Offer Up from this guy who took apart his mom's cedarwood, cabana in her backyard.
and was like, hey, if you can pick it up, come and take it.
And I was like, I will be there tomorrow with pickup truck.
all of this.
Wouldn't have been possible without, first of all, creative constraints, second of
all, without being like, what have I got?
how can I take this thing that somebody literally would've
put in landfill and how can I
take
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Denise: and and make something with it?
And that's one of the things that I am so proud of is that these things
were all going to be thrown away.
You
Brad Frost: yeah,
Denise: And then
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: up making this, this oasis with it.
what's being at as.
Not valuable as garbage, as broken, as unusable.
And how can reframe that and say, no, no, we can, we can use this part.
Okay.
Maybe that part I can't use.
Maybe I have to sand it down.
Maybe I have to cut that part off 'cause that part's too far gone, but
we
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: have a lot we can work with.
We still have materials that are valuable.
We still have something that that can be put to use.
And if we just look at it properly, if we put, add a little bit of
creativity and some ingenuity, We can figure, how to, we can figure out
how to nurture and make it gorgeous.
Brad Frost: yeah, not, not just make it good enough, like literally take it
way better than it would be otherwise.
Right.
And those, Ingredients matter a great deal
and I I think that's just so so beautifully said and it really doesn't
require that much extra work if at all.
In fact, it's a hell of a lot easier half the time, right?
It's certainly cheaper, as you're saying.
The immediate thing that comes to mind is like whenever you, you look
at just the, the stark juxtaposition of how much it takes to to educate
someone versus to jail them,
there's where like the the money is
is, is
far better spent.
the fact that this is just available, and all it really does is to kind of
take a bit of a shift in perspective.
That to me is so incredibly powerful that is like with the exact same
materials, with the exact same resources, infrastructure, people, whatever.
And that's where that idea of of vision of being able to imagine, to
be creative, So I live in Pittsburgh.
There's all these bridges.
Anytime there's any sort of thing about like bike lanes or, or, getting
rid of any stretch of road in order to make it a little bit friendlier
for non-car, it's this big uproar.
It's this big thing.
My neighbor was just showing me Had a rendering of like, what if we
were to just take one of the bridges and like turn that into a park?
And so like, you know, there was a, a, a really beautiful
artistic rendering of this thing.
It would just be a pedestrian bridge.
It's the bridge right by the, the baseball stadium.
So all these people, whenever a baseball game's happening, all these people are
walking across that bridge anyways.
And she's like, just do that all the time, right?
And plant some trees and it'll be freaking great.
it's a very inexpensive.
investment, but would radically transform the, a space that desperately
needs some, some more green space.
and it's just like, that's, that's the kind of thing it's like kind
of coming back to, it's just like there's this negativity, lack of
imagination, lack of, of just can-do attitude versus the qualities that
you embody so perfectly, I think,
I, I feel like that before and after is just like a real exercise
in here's what vision Gets to you.
Here's here's what this this kind of attitude can yield and I think it's such
like just a beautiful embodiment of the spirit of, of the show and what we're
like, kind of trying to do here is to just be like, what is that like, after picture
Can we teach people to be more curious?
When we look at these moments and what's in front of us, a lot of times.
It doesn't necessarily show itself as, as totally obvious,
but there's this kind of instinct.
And again, this is kind of something that I'm picking at there's this
instinct that it's like, it's, it seems like challenging the moment at hand or
trying to change the moment at hand.
By way of just, like, trying to, make people happy or trying to, like, sort
of promote positivity, or creativity, or, like, it feels almost insulting,
especially as, like, real people are, like, being harmed in this moment, right?
And so it seems shallow or naive to, to be like this actually doesn't feel
like a trite, peace, love, dove, kind of, like, weird sentiment, but it
actually feels like more potent and, and has more, like, gravity than I
think that I. we, we give it credit for.
And I don't know, I, I'm kind of, like, feeling around here, but it's
like my overwhelming instinct as I'm like, like, this has to be met
Denise: I
Brad Frost: with an equal and opposite reaction,
Denise: It
Brad Frost: I guess.
Denise: And I, I think, What's happening in this moment is that people are
feeling incredibly disempowered.
having conversations like this, Exposing your audience to other people who
are actually doing something and have kind of tapped into kind of way to
exist in the world in a more empowered way will help other people see how
they can potentially do the right.
It's
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: you glossing over, toxic river.
It's not what we're doing is we're, like you said, we're providing a
counterpoint, then I think that
Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.
Denise: start to feel empowered in one area of their life and feel like they,
they can start to have more agency in one area of their life, then that can
potentially spill over into other areas.
at me, even for myself, I can look outside to be like, you did that on like a shoes
string budget with like a skeleton crew.
You did all of that.
If you can do that, what else can you do?
I remember I'm not even gonna apologize for it.
I know I keep talking about my, first book and stuff like that, kind of this lovely
moment, you know, now that I have this.
Vantage point of gosh, that was 15 years ago, and so much has happened
since 15 and 16 years ago, but it's like now I have a really clear, way of
looking back at this and kind of seeing all the things that were happening
that I just couldn't see at the time.
And, I remember when I was.
trying to write my book that it was just like, you know, who am I to write a book?
Like, who am I to do this?
And how can I possibly do this?
And I don't even know if I can.
And then at the end of it, when I did it, I was just like,
Oh my God, I wrote a book.
Not only did I write a book, but I like designed like websites as examples,
which I wasn't even sure if I was a very good web designer, but I was
actually able to design these things and break them and build them and
write about it in story format.
I was just like, well, Jesus, if I can do this, what else can I do?
the empowerment that I got from being able to do this thing that I wasn't sure I was
able to do made it so that it transferred.
And I was like, if I can do this, what other thing that I didn't
think I could do or wasn't sure I could do, can I actually do?
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Denise: feel like
Brad Frost: Uh, that's beautiful.
Denise: been kind of a series of in some cases, exploring and finding out
like, oh, I didn't know I could do that.
but I could do that.
that's kind of again, like the through line.
that's, I think, the importance of getting in touch with, getting
empowered, finding something.
Maybe it's not directly doing something to, you know, dismantle
the toxic river, maybe it's something
else.
But then that will guide you to a place of inner strength, that you
didn't know that you had, and that you could start to address those things.
Brad Frost: the, the irony is that these things might seem like it's a, it's
a distraction or it's trite, or it's like how in the world is like, screen
printing gonna change the world or whatever, but it's like, it's the same
as planning, vegetation you put in your,
that soaks up the toxicity, everything is connected.
Right.
And, and so there is this, you know, the ecosystem that is, it's like, Oh, the
reason why the plants are, are failing down here is because like, you know, 30
miles upstream There, you know, there's this like kind of gross industrial
plan or whatever, like, so it's all.
It's all connected, even if it feels very indirect,
and it doesn't necessarily feel like you're, you're fighting things head on.
That's like a bit of my like frustration with like, a lot of the
response to the toxic river is that it's like, ah, yes, we need to fight
fire, with, with fire, and we need to fight everything, like, head on.
And don't get me wrong, like, they're absolutely Like, people need to be doing
that, certain people are wired for that, and they're like really good at it.
I learned through the, like, the last round of this, like,
I'm actually not wired that way, like, I'm, I'm not a fighter.
Like but I think that there's there's a lot of danger in the, if you're not
attacking this, if you're not outraged by this, if you're not addressing it head on.
Then, uh, you're part of the problem.
And I think that there's like a lot of ways that we can, we can show up
and, and, and counter the negativity that, that isn't maybe as, as obvious
as like, I'm gonna go toe to toe with this, with this issue head on.
And that stuff that feels like it's again, like a little like, Oh, I'm
just tinkering off to the side.
I love how you said it.
It's like, what you're doing is you're cultivating this sense of
self-empowerment, of this ability, this, this, attitude that allows you
to start showing up 'cause literally once you do it once, obviously, and
you're the one that wrote the book on it, but it's like, it's always there.
But like, it gets easier.
It gets easier over time with each rep right with each round.
By the time you're building a deck for your hot tub, you're not super worried.
Denise: right.
Brad Frost: what I mean?
Like, it's, it's like, it gets, it gets easier over time.
And like, I think like anyone listening to this, you already have, have these
wins and you can do a little exercise that basically is like, just crawl back through
the last couple years of your life,
Denise: Yep.
Brad Frost: done some really.
important things that you should be proud of.
You've built something, you've created something, you've showed up in a certain
way, done some sort of charitable deed, like guarantee you that there's that.
And then, so the question then becomes the, just like you, I
like, I love that through line.
of your like, co. once you get it, once you get like,
Oh, that's the feedback loop.
Like I could do this.
I could then extend that to the next thing and extend that to the next thing.
Like, that's how you grow.
That's how you show up.
That's how you live authentically.
And in a way that, that kind of snowballs upon itself in a positive direction.
Denise: Absolutely,
percent.
Brad Frost: perhaps unsurprisingly, uh, as a musician, I'm always super
interested in learning about hearing new music and especially music that
other people are excited about.
So what music are you excited about or that you, that you want
more people to, to know about?
Denise: so, band crush has actually been going on for the last five years,
you know how there's sometimes there's music that you listen to and it's like,
It's like you just feel like it's got in a worn blanket it's so soothing and
calming and my latest group that has been doing that for me is Moon Child.
first favorite of
theirs is called Little Ghost, the second one, Voyager.
third one is Plea Please.
Re, and then the fourth one after that is their first album.
so basically, I like all Start with Little Ghost and then work Your Way, kind
of just backwards through their albums.
like soulful and stuff, but, when you see them, you're just like, these
people are making this music and it's just like, yeah, they are, They're
Brad Frost: Their album art looks amazing.
Like, it's, it's like, it's got a whole aesthetic.
Denise: awesome.
Brad Frost: Beautiful.
Denise: three folks and, um, they're all multi instrumentalists
It's just warm and great.
And I love the boy and the harmonies, everything It's just so, so good.
go and find some moon child and listen to it and it'll change
your life and you're welcome.
Brad Frost: beautiful.
that is such a perfect way to end, so go listen to some Moon Child.
get inspired, uh, and, and Denise, one, one last thing is like, where
could people find you or what do you wanna draw people's attention to of
like sort of what, what you're up to besides, or or maybe including your,
your forthcoming cast iron, uh, class.
Denise: So, uh, people can still find me@denisejacobs.com.
I think the place that I would probably be posting the most publicly is like
LinkedIn and maybe potentially some on Facebook, but not so much anymore,
and occasionally on Instagram.
most definitely what you should do is if you're interested in My
book, banish Your Inner Critic, of course, you should get it.
but also, I have several courses on LinkedIn Learning, that are fantastic.
And so, if you have a premium LinkedIn account, then you should
be also getting LinkedIn Learning.
If not, you can always do courses a la carte, But I have
a baner in a Critic Course.
a Creative Collaboration course, Developing Creativity as a leader.
the Business case for Creativity, Unique Ways to Generate Creative Ideas
and Productive Creativity, well as Hacking the Creative Brain as part
of the creativity every day series.
So all of those courses are nice digestible ways of, getting
to know me and my content.
and then, if you need a great keynote speaker for your conference
to talk about creativity and or the inner critic, I'm your woman
Brad Frost: And or cast iron
Denise: And okay,
Brad Frost: skillets and gardens.
Denise: I could do like a little, a little, uh, breakout session on
Brad Frost: Uh, that's so great.
Well, thank you so much for coming on here.
You were the first person that I'm like, I need to talk to Denise,
like I, and I'm so glad that I did
well, thank you.
Thanks so much for being here.
Thanks for listening.
And, uh, until next time, take care.
Thanks.
Denise: Brad.