Leo Dion (host): Welcome to another episode, empower Apps.
I'm your host, Leo Dion.
Today I'm joined by Sean Allen.
Sean, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Sean Allen (guest): No problem.
Thanks for having me, Leo.
Leo Dion (host): for people who aren't on YouTube, go ahead and explain who you
Sean Allen (guest): are.
Yes.
Like you said, my name is Sean Allen.
Most people probably know me from my YouTube channel.
I've been doing it for almost seven years now.
I, started making videos when I was just learning myself.
I was probably about a year and a half into my career,
and that was back in 2017.
So over those years, a lot of people have, seen my videos learned from me.
So that's where they, wouldn't know me from.
Leo Dion (host): today I wanted to have you on and just give a refresh on
what people should do, and you seem to be doing a lot of videos lately about
upgrading your career or going from beginner to pro, and I think it would be
good to talk about that and maybe just what are some common misconceptions that
you think people have when it comes.
Being a Swift developer, being a pro Swift
Sean Allen (guest): developer.
Yeah, it's, I have an interesting perspective on that just because
all I see from my audience are typically beginners.
Now, I don't do a lot of like super advanced videos and there I
get asked to do that all the time.
But the reason is there's, probably 10 x more beginners and there are
advanced people, so I have a good perspective on what the beginners
are thinking and, saying, so my number one misconception is,
Underestimate like how long it takes.
One of the most common questions I get is, how do I become
a developer in two months?
And it's no, you're, you have the wrong attitude already.
so they, underestimate, it's gonna be a long, hard journey, right?
If it were easy, everyone would be doing it, and we probably wouldn't
make any money because everyone would do it and everyone could do it.
but yeah.
And they.
They're not willing to do things more than once.
Like I think they have a misconception on, I watched one
tutorial so I should know this.
And, once you develop, I had to build a hundred table views before
I finally knew table views cold, and all the iterations of them.
So yeah, I think that first one is gonna be just setting the
expectations, that it's gonna take a long time and you're gonna have
to practice this over and over.
, it's
Leo Dion (host): like experiential learning.
Like you have to do it and do it several times and find out all the facets of it.
oh, that's what a UI table view data source does as opposed
to a UI table view delegate.
And this is because you, you do it the first time and you, only
need to do the bare bones of it.
oh, just listing out items.
And then you realize, oh, there's all this stuff about editing
and differential data source and there's so much more when you
start getting into something.
. There's like different angles to it that, yeah, like it seems like
you're trying to like, which is your, what you're saying is like
two months isn't going to give you all those angles on how no UI table
Sean Allen (guest): view works.
Because there's, phases to the learning, like you alluded to.
There's, Hey, I know that I have to type this code and it'll
make that appear on the screen.
that's like the phase one.
But then there's what even is a delegate and a data source?
how did it tie in together?
And then the Ivan written UI kit in a while.
So I remember my learning experience is the, self road index path.
It took me probably until I built 50 table views to realize that, oh,
that's getting called every time a new cell like appears on the screen.
And realizing what a delegate method really was and how that's working.
So again, it's, one thing to know what code to write and make it work.
It's a totally other thing to fully understand what's actually
happening with your code.
And that going from point A to point B right there,
that's what takes the, months.
And I think again, the misconception is beginners will be.
I know what code to write, so I know it, I'm good.
And it's no, You only know the surface.
It's like the iceberg.
There's a whole lot more going on.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
what are some other misconceptions that you've run into from beginners?
, Sean Allen (guest): it's not so much a misconception, but a lot
of beginners do fall into what I've called the tutorial trap.
I don't know if I've coined this term, probably not, but I do notice
a lot of people have used it since I, I first made a video about this
in like 2018, and now I hear it all the time and I didn't hear it before.
So anyway, don't know.
I don't think I coined it, but anyway, I hear it a lot tm.
But no, it's.
it's just one more tutorial, let me learn this new thing.
And in, in programming, there's always a new thing coming out, whether
it's like swift charts or AR kit or even Swifty by itself, there's
always the hot new thing coming out and you're just a forever learner.
When I know my learning skyrocketed when I decided to make my own project
and there was no cookie cutter recipe to follow, like I had an
idea, okay, let me make this idea.
And again, there wasn't a tutorial for it, so I had to bang my head
against the wall, dig into the documentation, and that's rough.
It's not fun.
, we talk about that programmers, sometimes you feel like a genius.
Sometimes you feel like an idiot.
you're gonna feel like an idiot a lot in that case, and it's not fun.
But that process is what will just, your learning will skyrocket
exponentially when you do that.
So again, stop following people's cookie tutorials and
try to build your own thing.
You'll learn a lot.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
I feel like tutorials are good for filling in gaps when I'm
trying to learn something new.
But as far as like deep diving into something, usually I'm the kind of
person who just wants to open up Xcode and go at it and then take
a look at it later and be like, okay, like I missed this whole part.
There was a easier way to do it that was 10 times easier that Apple provides,
and I did it the stupid way, or.
Yeah.
And I think doing that, doing a building, an actual project is it
gives you a real world exa real world example because it's your own project.
But it gives you like, oh, now I understand like how these pieces fit
together as opposed to just like your 500th to-do list or polka ducks or
whatever the heck you're building.
Yeah.
ain't using just a simple UI table view because no.
No app is just a table view.
Like usually there's like a navigator and you gotta tap
you and all this other pieces.
Sean Allen (guest): do you think and, building your own, sorry, real quick
and building your own thing, just to add on to that, requires you to dig
into the documentation and learn.
because like I said, there's no cookie cutter tutorial for you to follow.
Yeah.
And I get asked a lot, do what's your best tips on learning the documentation.
And I've thought a lot about this and I always get asked to make a video.
I don't have a good answer for it because my answer is basically like I
banged my head against it for two years and as I, it was almost like two levers
being pulled as my knowledge grew, the docs became easier to understand.
Okay.
And then understanding the docs also helped my knowledge grow.
So it's kinda two things going back and forth.
So I don't really have good advice aside from just start putting in the
time, putting in the work and know that it's probably gonna take a,
while for you to fully understand.
But once you do, that's what is this huge unlock.
So you don't have to follow tutorials anymore and you can
build your own ideas, and learn things by diving into the docs.
And then, like you said, when you dive into the docks, you'll see,
hey, maybe Apple already did this for
me.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah, what else was I gonna say?
Oh, what you, talk, it seems like a lot, like you talked about patience
when it comes to becoming a pro.
Do you think some people come away with that, with kind of their.
Down and being like, I don't know if I want to do this.
Or are people like, what's the reaction to that?
I guess
Sean Allen (guest): Mixed and, it probably comes down to the
personality type, because there's some people that you tell them
like, Hey, this is gonna be hard.
And some people get excited by that.
Yes, I love a good challenge.
And then some people, like you said, bow their head and I was like, oh man,
know if I want to do this and right.
This may sound harsh, like programming that those roadblocks are never
gonna go away, If you're in this business building this thing, you
have to love taking on the challenge, banging your head against it for
a while and breaking through.
That's what the job is.
So I would almost say that if hearing that, hey, you're gonna,
this is gonna be hard, you gotta have patience, really deters you.
I might've just saved you a lot of time, , right?
Going down this path when shouldn't
Leo Dion (host): I don't remember.
I keep citing this TED talk where the guy explains how we sometimes when
we see things that we want to let's say you want to be an actor, right?
We think of all the glamor and fun parts of it, but we forget, like
you have to memorize the lines.
You sit , you have to be with the grips and you have to have food
service table and be there for 12 hours waiting for your scene
just anything, like any project.
It is like you think of the fun parts.
, forget about the pain the hard part about actually doing stuff.
and think like with programming, I think that's a part of it is
like people have this idea either if they're doing it for their
career, it's like the money, right?
B, they're like, oh, cool, I'll build this really cool app,
but they don't think about to deal with the App store review.
You have to deal with getting Xcode build and upload it.
You have to deal with the fact that you have these integrations
that you have to put together.
, you have to deal with edge cases of oh, the network doesn't work in your app.
What are you gonna do then?
There's always these things.
Sean Allen (guest): Yeah, that's what I just The edge cases.
That's what always gets me, some of 'em you didn't even think about.
Like my app, just creator view just got rejected.
And this is an obvious edge case, but I didn't think of it.
It got rejected because when they authenticated with Google, Their Google
account had never created a YouTube channel, so I didn't like think of that
case where oh, they authenticate, but they've never created a YouTube channel.
So the apple crashing at work, I've got rejected for it.
So it's crazy the amount of edge cases that even if you think
you've covered 'em all, you've probably only covered like 10%.
So that is a.
For me, that is one of the most demoralizing parts is oh man, I
got 50 more edge cases to cover.
And yeah, that's the not fun work.
But to, to what you were saying is everyone thinking about the highs, I
think that's what makes the highs so much better is when you go through
all slog of the rough work or when you're banging your head against
the problem for two days and you finally solve it and you have a
good solution like that feeling.
That's what keeps people coming back to programming.
So you, I think you can't have those high times happy times without the down.
It's the
Leo Dion (host): magic when everything works and comes together.
Yeah, totally agree.
say, I was gonna say something I forgot.
That happens But yeah, I was gonna ask, so when people wanna
learn, going back to that, when people wanna become pros, they
necessarily, there's two kinds, right?
There's people who just want to be really good at their skill,
and then there's people who want to like do it for their career.
, what do you think is the difference as far as motivation when it comes
to those kinds a, do you see those two types of people in your audience
and B, like what are the different ways, maybe they should address that,
Sean Allen (guest): if that makes sense?
Yeah, definitely.
I definitely see both types in the audience because there's
certainly the type that they're just laser focused on fang, like,
how do I get into a FANG company?
What do I do to get Fang company?
They're like, that's all they care about.
And like they don't, I don't think they realize that if you talk to a lot of
people, I'm not saying they're bad jobs.
They're not for everyone.
So yeah, so those people are laser focused on money and then there
are the people that want to create just because they love creating
or this is interest in them or they want to perfect their craft.
Perfect is probably the wrong word.
They want to improve their craft, right?
They're they themselves as craftsmen.
Those love those people, right?
Because they're here just for pure love of the game, so to speak.
Yeah.
And this is like a sweeping statement, but I find that people
that only do it for money, it's fine, but they typically peter out or.
Maybe they're not, they don't enjoy the profession much.
yeah, you can definitely make both work for sure.
I'm not, I don't want say one's better than the other.
Both can absolutely work, but they're both very different in my mind.
Leo Dion (host): back to the thing with, oh gosh, I forgot it again.
It's one of those days.
, we're talking about career.
career, . How much of it though, if you want to improve your
career, how much of it is really becoming a better swift developer?
Because I feel like, don't know.
a plateau, right?
There's a ceiling at which, yes, you can get, you can be that good, but
then other parts involved to having a job email communication presentations
p parts of just programming unit tests, DevOps, et cetera.
Do you.
Like, where would you put that percentage, do you ever have to
explain that to developers of Hey, if you wanna update your career, there's,
yeah, you can be a better swift developer, but there's a point where
you need to like work on other skills
Sean Allen (guest): as well.
Yeah, I so my go-to percentage is at least 50 50 tech
skills versus soft skills.
I'm a big believer the soft skills.
O of course.
It's very situationally dependent and very like job dependent, right?
you are inventing self-driving cars you need to be insanely
good technically, right?
If you're inventing the next new thing, yeah.
Your technical skills have to be off the charts.
But if you're building the run of the Mill iOS app, you know
Basically what I would argue is 80% of the apps out there.
yeah, would say it's at least 50 50 tech skills versus soft skills.
And me personally, I lean more towards the soft skills because as
someone who like teaches this stuff, I believe a lot of it can be taught.
Yeah.
Versus like your personality.
If you have horrible communication skills or you're just a mean
person, you're not a good teammate, all that stuff.
a lot harder to teach because that's like people's
innate personalities versus.
The next new Swift topic.
So that's I like lean more towards the soft
Leo Dion (host): skills.
And I think too, if you're, unless you're like an indie developer I
would say even if you are an indie developer, at some point you're
gonna have to work with other people.
. And either you're gonna have to teach them your API you're gonna
have to talk to the cfo or somebody who's gonna help you finance it.
Like you need to sell it, you need to yeah, I totally agree with that
because I like, it's easy for us because we communicate, right?
We're communicators and that's a big part of what we do, but think
part of it is just like not only gonna be talking to your technical
crowd, you're gonna have to talk to people who are less technical.
will need sign off and accept what you're working on.
Sean Allen (guest): a ex a good example of that because this is more towards
the beginners because like I said, the people that are all Fang, it's very
hard to get into FANG as your first job unless you're a Stanford computer
science grad or something like that.
But Most - especially self top beginners will probably start their career at
some smaller company, some startup.
And to your point, like that's where I spent a lot of my time in San Francisco
where I was like the only iOS developer, or was me and one other person.
But I was like the lead.
And like you said, I would have to talk to, this would be
like a 6, 7, 8 person startup.
So I'm talking to, CEO and other co-founders.
The communication of like they want to build all these features and then
marketing is asking for features.
So as you developers out there know, you have to be like, okay,
there's trade offs to all this.
only pushback, not only one feature versus the other, but then
also within one feature, I call it the spectrum of complexity.
like you can take one feature, make an insanely robust, or there's a much
simpler version of that feature, right?
And there's a whole spectrum in between.
So like you said, communicating with the people that are requesting these
features that, hey, if we build this feature, To this complexity.
We can do that, but we're also gonna have to give up this
other stuff and then basically put the decision back on them.
is the trade.
We have limited resources, we can't do it all.
Yeah.
So communicating that in a way is a whole other art
form and a whole other skill.
And if you are bad at that, in that scenario, you're
probably not gonna last long.
Whereas if you excel in that, you're gonna make yourself just
an invaluable member of that team.
Do
Leo Dion (host): you think yeah.
say Totally.
I think to, in, in communicating within your team as well, like in your
development team is super helpful.
And being able to like, take that senior position time comes.
Sean Allen (guest): Or I think to, to that point is I believe if
you don't have those communication skills, it'll be very hard to even
make it to that senior position.
Yeah.
The more senior you get.
Yeah.
That's becomes way more important.
Leo Dion (host): I'm curious about the whole FANG thing.
Do you ever have people who come back to you and you're like,
yeah that was not for me, or,
Sean Allen (guest): just on Twitter and living in San Francisco and I've lived
in San Francisco from 2014 to 2019.
So a lot of friends that I never worked at Fang personally, so I can't speak
from personal experience, lot of people that work there and it's just the.
lifestyle, and maybe I'm using too much of a personal thing, because in downtown
San Francisco, a lot of 'em had the bus down to Facebook, more down south.
, so just mountain view.
Super, super long days and you don't feel like you're
contributing all that much.
You're, you're one of 5,000 developers, working on a very narrow thing.
So I guess when it comes to fulfillment, the small startups are doing your own.
Dwarf Fang, but also Fang comes with a lot of perks and benefits.
Like I said, I'm not saying one is better than the other.
I think it's a personal thing.
Yeah.
I think some people like that structure and being one of a thousand, some people
like myself, I liked having impact.
Seeing my work in the app and seeing the customer's reaction to it.
if didn't have that, like I, I wouldn't enjoy the work.
But again, I think it's a personal Totally, totally
Leo Dion (host): understand.
Yeah.
And unfortunately, as we found out the last few months, there's no guarantee
of future employment we've seen yeah.
Yeah.
It's been rough Speaking of that, what do you think if you are.
think I know where the answer to this question is gonna be, but what do you
think is the best way to gain experience in your career if you want to really
like, upgrade your career and like deep
Sean Allen (guest): dive?
think it depends on your goals.
Back the whole, let's just do the fang versus startup.
path.
. So if Fang your goal, and you're, and again, I'm assuming self-learner, right?
They learn on YouTube.
because again, if you go to the typical college path where you know you're
getting a CS degree doing internships along the way, that's more of the
path to the fang big company world.
it comes to, getting your first job or getting a job at a startup to level
up your career, I always recommend building small portfolio projects.
I get a lot of people that ask, oh, what should my resume say?
What should my resume say?
And I believe, especially in the small startup plan, cause I've hired for a few
small startups, show me what you can do.
I don't care what black and white words you have on your resume, right?
I wanna see an app you've built.
I want to touch it, I wanna play with it.
And then I wanna talk to you about that and talk to you about
why you did certain things.
I wanna hear your decision making and all that.
just.
Personal view on it.
But yeah, I always recommend to people building a bunch of different
smaller portfolio projects.
That's another misconception is some people think they need to build a
full featured app on the app store.
That is one path, but I think building, 8, 9, small, not on
the app store, play with map kit, play with AR kit, because there's.
Our profession, you're constantly learning a new framework.
You're constantly having to implement this.
So if you can showcase that, you can quickly learn a bunch
of different iOS frameworks.
think that's super valuable, especially to a small startup.
Again, one last disclaimer.
Hiring practices, obviously completely two different planets
when you're talking fang in small startups, and I think people
try to bundle them all together.
They're a thousand percent different.
Leo Dion (host): also just have companies that are not.
California, right?
That are medium size, small or small companies that
aren't necessarily startups.
from the Midwest, I'm in the Midwest.
worked at a small company.
it's to find necessarily iOS focused stuff here, but there's
always the occasional stuff and I that's, that's better than
nothing as far as opportunity.
And I think, like to me, small company, you really deep dive, you learn a lot
of the pieces of what it takes to build.
an app and don't just mean an app, but like a company too that maybe is built
around an app or app supports it.
I think
Sean Allen (guest): I think, go ahead.
I was gonna say, I think that's an interesting perspective.
Because my whole career was in San Francisco before I went
India and did my own thing.
So I only know the two extremes.
The bang or small startup.
So you sound like you have a good insight into the middle ground.
So I think that might be valuable too, to let some people know.
So I guess what, what is hiring developers like in that middle ground?
Leo Dion (host): It, I think part of it is I'm in a university
town, so there's obviously a lot of people who are graduates.
A funnel who . Yeah.
There's a funnel here.
So that's always been helpful, but I think like to me, like I'm
more interested in experience.
of which, I've been through trying to look for helpers as you might
have heard with some of my work and I mostly look for contractors.
So for me it's do I want to see like show.
Resume is like a very early starting point.
And then it like, I agree completely portfolio and like references because
and talking to the person too and getting oh, explain to me how this
worked or what do you like about this?
Or, because it's more are you gonna be a good fit?
Do you know the APIs I'm working with because I have very specific
thing that I need help with.
like to me is how it's worked for me as far as like contractor
getting help and things like that.
Yeah.
I don't know if that answered your question, but that's definitely No,
Sean Allen (guest): I just felt like me, for me, yeah.
I just it's a good perspective because again, we, a lot of times
people talk about the two extremes, the small startup or the fang, but
like you said, there was a whole.
Huge swath of companies that are in that middle ground.
Vast majority, right?
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, there's, there is startups outside of California.
There's not, they're not all there.
But yeah, so I think for me, I'm, I love working for small companies and startups
and working on my own, obviously.
So that's in the same boat of being a little bit biased, but let's network.
. . So I noticed you talked a bit about networking on your video course a lot
has changed in the last three years, at least in the last four months.
what, I guess kinda review what you said a few years ago and
then maybe what has changed in
Sean Allen (guest): that time?
Yeah prior to Covid, again, I was preaching.
In-person meetups a lot.
Again, I was in San Francisco, so that's, there's a meetup
every night somewhere.
That's also what I would've preached is maybe not necessarily San Francisco,
but if you were trying to get into tech, try to find the closest tech hub to
you, like in the United States, there's, Seattle, Austin, New York there's
Boston, Raleigh, research Triangle.
There's a couple different little pockets, and I would've
recommended trying to go there.
Like you said, COVID changed all that.
So much of it has shifted online.
My biggest regret in my career, and I still stand by this, and I
know this will be a controversial take nowadays, was not getting
involved on Twitter early.
So again, now we're talking 2016, 2017, right?
But I waited two years to really get on Twitter and get involved.
And this is why I appreciate nonstop, because get in there, you get
access to all kinds of developers, at all kinds of companies, not
only just to help you get a job.
So many people are putting out what they're learning, what they're building.
because a, a big thing nowadays is the build in public.
So I do it too.
I'm building a feature, I share screenshots of it along the way.
So you get to see what people are working on.
It's just people are putting out so much stuff I would definitely
recommend getting on Twitter.
I didn't say Mastodon.
I'll address that real quick.
I'm sure.
Mastodon is an amazing space for just the existing iOS develop.
And I'm sure it's great.
I haven't joined yet because my world typically deals beginner, the
person just getting into this world.
And I believe those people are entering, through Twitter.
They're not starting with Mastodon.
percentage of them will find their way to Mastodon.
So I feel like my people, the people I'm trying to help, if I just
stayed in Mastodon, because I was mad at Elon, like I would be like
gate keeping so many beginners.
And how I feel about it.
That's why I haven't gone that route and I'm not knocking it.
Like I said, I'm sure it's an amazing.
Peaceful place . But people I'm trying to reach and
help, they're not there yet.
They may make their way there, but they start on Twitter.
So yeah, that's why, that's my recommendation for the new people.
Start on Twitter, Hey, explore Macon.
If you like it, stay there.
But I just fully believe that Twitter's still gonna be top of funnel for new
people coming into the community.
agree
Leo Dion (host): a hundred percent.
And address some, I, But I also want to jump back and talk about local
networking because it's funny you mentioned that, I've mentioned this
before on my videos, that, at the end of 29, I felt like where I am
locally local networking had run dry.
just was like, I'm done.
This is not worth my time.
And I pretty much focused all online.
This is the end of 2019, by the way, like totally coincidentally.
Yeah.
and like I had done everything, I had done meetups.
I used to do a cocoa heads at the local Apple store I would five, six
people and obviously it's the size of the town where it's focused.
I did a little a little bit in the, some of the bigger metro areas
in Michigan, but for me it was just this is not worth it for me.
Like driving an hour, setting up a meetup, getting a H, like getting a
speaker, and like I, I had focused so much just shifted everything
over to Twitter at that point.
And I've, it's been great.
that's been great.
Slack also has been really good as far as networking and things like that.
just circling back, like as far as, first of all, I
wanted to ask do anything?
Meet up.
at all related.
Post co.
Post covid.
Post covid?
Sean Allen (guest): No, because I, I moved to North Carolina decided I, okay.
I, like you said coincidentally moved before Covid, before San Francisco
became a ghost town . Just because when I decided to do my YouTube
channel full-time, . I was I don't need to be living in downtown San
Francisco paying this insane rent.
to move to another city that's a little more, more reasonable.
good
Leo Dion (host): timing too, as far as yours.
Sean Allen (guest): Decision, luck.
like six months in advance, but it was pure luck.
Yeah.
But no, so I've tried, I put out a tweet and also like covid when I first
got here in Charlotte, North Carolina where I'm I tried putting on a tweaks.
I know like Bank of America's here, and I know there's a lot of
Bank of America developers here.
But it was also during covid and it was like, as things were just opening
up, so it was like hard find a spot.
And then I got four people that responded, you were saying.
was like, oh.
So petered out on trying to do an in-person meetup.
just because like I said, I just.
Twitter, you're talking about ROI on your time.
Yeah, just being on Twitter is way, way more,
Leo Dion (host): Sean, like this is a realization I came up with.
It's reach so many more people with this podcast it's probably a
thousand times more for you, but like you reach so many more people
on YouTube or podcast, or even Twitter than you ever do in a meetup.
Like to me it's like, why would I present in a meet.
When there's five people there.
When I could give a podcast where there's like hundreds or
thousands of people listening.
Yeah.
It's just like ROI on, that's ridiculous.
It's not even worth it.
So as far as like Mastodon , you hit it on the nose.
I think Mastodon is really good for hitting like existing experienced
developers, which to me is sometimes that is worth it to me.
gone on Mastodon, listen to the end of the show, you'll hear my plug.
But makes sense for me in that regard because there's like
existing developers, I wanna reach more of the experienced audience.
And like with you though, yeah, you've hit the, you've hit it on the nose
like, All the beginners, all the new people are gonna be on Twitter.
It just, it is people feel intimidated by mask on still.
I think it's not as bad as it used to be as far as getting
started and picking your server.
Yeah.
But think that's exactly it.
It's like when you new people are gonna be on Twitter it far as for the
next two or three years until Yeah.
Yeah.
It shuts down because, AOL buys them, or Yahoo or whoever.
. agree completely.
What what other networks have you found?
I'm just curious.
I talked a bit about TikTok.
I've killed TikTok.
, it just wasn't worth it for me.
YouTube shorts are just a lot better.
Sean Allen (guest): Yeah.
There's also the potential ban coming.
Like I would feel was building a brand on TikTok right now, I'd be nervous.
I'm not saying it's going to get banned, but there's that looming
cloud don't know, And that's
Leo Dion (host): fair enough.
around I mentioned this in my video, my end of the year video
was like, at the end of the year, I pretty much was like, okay,
let's, like Twitter has its issues.
Let's see what else is out there.
I found LinkedIn to be half decent.
As far as the audience, I don't know about you I, think LinkedIn
obviously is more career based and it's yeah, technical.
It gets a bit technical, but it's also a bit like it's bit more like managers
and seat level folks, which can be Yeah.
Worth it.
What other networks have you found useful to you?
Sean Allen (guest): Yes, useful to me.
So probably a couple years ago I actually cut everything out.
I was doing all, I was doing LinkedIn, I was I Instagram I was doing, yeah.
It was just, it's a lot for one person to try to manage five platforms
and post consistently and post.
Native to that platform, not just repost everything, which I guess now
on LinkedIn and Instagram, all you're seeing is people screenshotting their
tweets and making it a carousel.
I it's all happening again.
But was too much and I found that I was just posting like bare minimum
and I was like, if I'm not gonna do these platforms right, I'm just,
again, back to ROI in your time.
Like I'm just not doing a real, so that back then I decided to
focus on YouTube and Twitter and those are just my two focuses.
seen other people succeed.
Like I've seen know you've had Mikayla on your podcast before.
She does well on Instagram Brittany of Brit code.
She does well on Instagram.
IVAs Mays, I'm probably mispronouncing his last name.
So I've seen a lot of developers very well on Instagram and parlay
those audiences into YouTube channel or something else.
. So I don't have any experience with LinkedIn.
I don't, I deleted my LinkedIn account because it became just recruiter Spam.
Spam.
like, all I do is get recruiter spam.
I'm not even on here.
Why do I even.
Yeah can't really speak to that, but,
Leo Dion (host): let's go back and talk about that beginner developer.
you think LinkedIn might be a better fit for some of those people
if they're looking for a job?
Sean Allen (guest): Yeah think what your last little bit right
there I think is differentiator.
What are you looking for if you're looking for a job?
Sure.
Yeah, probably LinkedIn and getting, and by the way, it's not just, I
wanna address this going back to Twitter as well, because we've
said get on these platforms, but I wanna give actionable advice.
It's okay, cool.
I'm on Twitter now, what?
wanna give actionable advice on what to do when you're on there.
Like I said, I can't speak to LinkedIn because not on there, but Twitter,
is I, follow some of the big names just because those are probably
gonna be the ones that you know.
And then look at who they're following.
Go through there, click on the bios, see what company they're at.
Follow 'em if you want.
And then slowly but surely you're gonna build up your following list.
And then don't be afraid to interact yes, get in there.
Especially when people are sharing their content creators, sharing
their podcast, sharing their video, sharing their work, get.
Great video, loved it, or provide constructive criticisms.
It doesn't have to be sunshine or rainbows all the time.
Don't be mean, free to provide a little criticism.
get in there, interact like it, retweet it.
And I say this not for like selfish reasons cause I want
people to retweet my stuff.
I'm saying it because.
being on the other side of that, I know the people that
are constantly interacting with my stuff, liking my stuff.
Yes.
And you were talking about building a network and it's a two-way street.
Building a network with an existing developer isn't, let me just from
them, it's a give, give and take.
You help them spread their content.
if they're, even if they're not a content creator, say they're just
building a public and they're, showing a screenshot of what they're building.
Comment on it.
Give your thoughts, give your advice.
Yes.
It's a conversation, right?
Interact.
Yes.
And the more you interact, and also back to expectations we talked about in the.
Networking on Twitter and building a network is gonna
take you a year or two, right?
You're not gonna interact on Twitter for a week and then all of a sudden have
this amazing Twitter network, right?
It's over the long term, you're solely gonna build that up.
And then the reason I mentioned like networking with I guess maybe more
well known developers is because when it comes time, I've had people that.
Always interact my stuff.
And when it comes time for them to like, Hey, I'm looking for a job.
Anybody knows something, I'm always retweeting it because I
wanna repay the favor of them liking, interacting with my stuff.
Like I said, the networking is a two-way street and it takes a long time.
Those are the only two things I wanna leave people with the expectations.
And I think,
Leo Dion (host): I think interaction is the big part.
. I'll even say like a YouTube comment, like I don't know how bad it is for
you, but for me it's not that bad.
Like I don't get a lot of garbage as far as my YouTube comments,
but like a YouTube comment, a LinkedIn reply, a Twitter reply.
You do a great job too with asking questions on Twitter, like
reply to those and maybe not just fill out the poll book reply.
Yeah.
Post que post questions.
It's okay to ask questions on Twitter.
Technical questions.
I do it too, and I think.
Like you said, it's a conversation and like you, like I said, when
they post that Twitter, that tweet that's Hey, I'm looking for you'll
never remember that person because they reply to you and they like your
videos and like your stuff on Twitter.
So yeah, I totally agree.
At
Sean Allen (guest): 100%.
Yeah, you do that.
Yeah, you do that enough times.
It won't just be like one person retweeting.
It'll be, oh, this person's been super active in the community.
Super engaging.
Yeah.
You'll get multiple people retweeting and the word spreads and.
Yeah, it's just, I don't want to, I also don't want to paint the
picture of you're doing this for, so you can get a retweet on your
job post so you can get a job.
You don't do this with an end goal in mind.
You do this with I'm going to build a bunch of goodwill in the
community and make legitimate friends or at least acquaintances.
And then one day we're gonna be able to help each other out.
Like I, I always say, especially to the people, just learning network with
other people that are just learning too.
because you're gonna build that relationship again over years.
And then 2, 3, 4, 5 years from now, who knows?
That person may be working at Apple, that person may be working
at some other company you wanna work at, or they may be looking
to a co-founder for their company.
You grow up with these people, if you will.
So if you've built that relationship that whole time,
like it's just, it's unforeseen benefits that are gonna happen.
You don't, I don't, I can't tell you what's gonna happen, but
good things are probably gonna.
. Leo Dion (host): It's, yeah.
That's, so that's so many things in life.
It's like you build the relationship for the relationship and then there's
benefits that might come from that.
Yeah.
But don't go into it being like, Hey, I need this job.
Could you get me this job?
Thank you.
And then that's your tweet.
And it's like you never hear from 'em again.
Exactly.
That's not gonna work.
And yeah, you have to invest in it.
It's also too I don't know where I've heard this, but a lot of success
comes from luck and That's true.
Like part of it is you need to keep playing the game in order to improve
your chances, because that's the only way you'll ever get lucky.
Look has to happen.
You have to try and then you can.
Be successful at it.
Sean Allen (guest): Yeah.
If you're not out there, luck's not just gonna come to you and fall in your lap.
You gotta be out there like moving and shaking, stirring things up, and
then luck just magically happens,
Leo Dion (host): Exactly.
Exactly.
Before we close out, I wanted to get more of your opinion on Mastodon so you.
Have you created a Mastodon account?
You said no, you didn't, right?
No.
Sean Allen (guest): Because little context Mastodon tried
to happen in like 20 18, 20 19.
I can't remember.
Do you remember when that happened?
I Twitter did something.
I can't remember.
Yeah.
Everyone's I'm gonna Mastodon I'm gonna mastodon.
And then two weeks later, everyone's back.
No one did anything.
So I was taking the wait and see approach this time.
Obviously it looks like it's sticking around this time, but I was taking
the wait and see cause I was like, we've, I've seen this movie before.
Let's see how it plays out.
So it looks like it's sticking.
I still don't know about the long term of it.
Again it's probably gonna be great as that little iOS developer
walled garden because I've, I use Twitter for so much, right?
For my other hobbies, like startup and tech, YouTube investing, sports, iOS
development, iOS dev, my, I've used Twitter lists, so my iOS dev list.
Is the only one that even mentioned Mastodon.
None of the other quote unquote normal people even mentioned Mastodon.
So that's why I don't think it's going to get mass adoption and why
I still think it's gonna be top of funnel for the new iOS developers, the
new people in the iOS Dev community.
. And that's why I wish.
Like I keep talking about this because I know a lot of developers, said F Elon.
I'm never posting on Twitter.
And I think again, it's a little bit of gatekeeping.
Like I, because the new people come in, I feel like you're
holding your content back.
All your, the stuff you share that's so valuable.
You have very valuable stuff and these new developers, Because
again, only a small percentage of them I believe are gonna actually
make it to Mastodon to see it.
So I feel like there's a huge void now of content on Twitter
that's just the new people aren't getting, and I'm trying to fill
that void, but I'm only one person.
There's still a lot of people putting out stuff.
I don't wanna make it seem they come into the last one standing.
But I do know a lot of people that I used to follow
that posted awesome stuff.
don't post anymore, and it's just gone.
I think it,
Leo Dion (host): excuse me.
I think it depends on their audience.
If they're like you and they have, they're selling a course for a book,
like I definitely have seen them stay on Twitter if they're somebody post
like who builds India apps that I tend to see like that where it's like more.
more.
Hey, cool, this API helped me do this.
Then I see that more of those people being willing
to cut off ties with Twitter.
Yeah, more tech, more highly technically people too who are just
like, like I've seen Apple people.
Yeah.
Stop posting to Twitter.
Sean Allen (guest): But I think the build building
public people in the indie.
our that's honestly, that's what I meant by the most valuable, because to
me that's inspir, that's inspirational inspiration to the new developers.
Yeah.
Look at what this person's building and they're sharing with their
building, and I can do that.
And a lot of times it's, developers of well-known apps.
Yeah.
So they can make the connection of seeing the developer of this app that
they may know and seeing the building.
I just think there's a lot of inspirational stuff that got lost.
And again they have their beliefs.
That's fine.
I just I wish the new people coming in could see that.
Could
Leo Dion (host): still see it.
. Yeah.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Totally.
Way to end on, it's such a downer note.
Thanks Sean.
. Sean Allen (guest): Yeah we, I mean we can dabble in the, in this, the
quick stay after date on Swift, or again, I don't know about this
Swift UI stuff with on the Mac app with built in creator view.
Or we can end on downer.
Yeah.
Leo Dion (host): Let's talk about your app.
You're building an.
Let's talk about this app that you're
Sean Allen (guest): building.
Yeah.
What's it called?
So it's called Creator View.
It's meant for basically built it for myself, which is hopefully
how all the best products start
Basically my running my YouTube channel in my business, I had a
giant spreadsheet and had about 15 different notes in my notes app,
and I decided to combine all that.
Into a native app on the iPhone, on the iPad, and on the Mac.
Because, thinking about my business, I'm, it doesn't matter where I'm at,
I always get ideas and I wanna be able to, manage my business from forever.
But the interesting thing for the developers listening, because
I highly doubt there's a lot of YouTubers listening, is it is a
fully swift UI app and it's on all platforms, iPhone, iPad, and Mac.
And that's been an interesting journey just doing that because
I had never built a Mac app.
And I don't know, AppKit so basically it's Swift UI from the
start and there's a lot of trade offs that, that go with that.
, main, mainly it's getting better now, but when I first built the app, the
Mac app was basically, iPad screens on a Mac, and you could tell it was
big, chunky buttons, big things.
And this
Leo Dion (host): is not Catalyst, this is like totally
Sean Allen (guest): swift, straight Swifty.
It looked like an iPad app.
Okay.
Yeah.
Still looked like an iPad app because just, if you've ever
built a Mac app, even just Mac button, it's totally different.
Like all your Swifty buttons.
Will look horrible if you just transfer 'em over to the Mac
without doing something different.
And there's even a lot of little stuff that you still gotta use, like
instead of, UI color and s color.
I know that's app kit and UI kit, but some of the semantic colors secondary
system background and stuff like that, those are still technically like UI kit.
But anyway.
It's been interesting in architecture as well because it's been a good
practice in separation of concerns, meaning if I have UI on an iPhone,
which is drastically different than UI on an iPad, which is drastically
different than the UI on a Mac.
They're all, like the dashboard screen has one like model, right?
For dashboard and all the screens doing that.
So the exercise in being like, okay, what can I share?
What can I not share?
And that's a constantly evolving process that's been
like super interesting and fun.
I remember when I first built the Mac app, I was surprised how,
I'm gonna put it in quotes, easy.
It was, I was expecting a nightmare and it it ended up not being too bad.
So I guess what I might leave you with is if you do have an iPad and
an iPhone app, because I know most developers don't develop for Mac.
I don't know if you think your audience can use it, I
would give them back a try.
It's not that.
Leo Dion (host): what?
Yeah, we did a really good episode with tr so definitely
check that out in her book.
. Did you have to do any app kit, like ns, view, representable,
Sean Allen (guest): or View Control?
No, the only thing that I had to do a representative
for is the the mail sheet.
So in in my info in the feedback, send me feedback, right?
Cause there's no Native Swift UI thing to pop up the native.
Email sheet.
Yeah.
That is the only, and I don't wanna I'm not against using UI Kit, by the way.
I don't wanna make it sound like, or AppKit you mean?
Or AppKit or, yeah.
Either one.
Yeah.
However, I am, I'm not against it, but I'm using it as a last resort.
So I, and I know this is blasphemy to a lot of people, I
am basically taking what Swiss UI gives me because what's with you.
I gives me, because a also the design principle for the app is I want it
to feel like a native Apple app.
, which helps because I can use a lot of the built-in default
stuff, which also helps.
Build on all the platforms.
A lot of people's problem with Swift UI when they say Swift UI sucks, is
not ready yet, is they try to, I, this is the phrase I use, they try to
bend Swift UI to their will instead of bending to Swift, your eyes will,
which I know sounds blasphemous, where you're like, oh, I, I need to change my
feature because Swift UI can't handle.
It's fine, but if you just play nicely with Swift UI and maybe
change your feature or your UI like a little bit so it works well with
Swift ui, you might not get that perfect animation or exact transition
you want, but you'll still get something that looks great and works.
I just, I think the developer gains on working with Swift ui, if you
work with it and not fight it, I think far exceed the downsides of
having to adjust your feature, not getting maybe like exactly what.
Leo Dion (host): So I'll just say my one big complaint with that is I feel
like Swift UI does not make it easy.
To design a good Mac OS app?
I feel like the native could to me Swift ui, like I'm in the same mode.
I'm building a Swift UI Mac app, and what I've found is like the things
I wanted to look like an actual Mac app, I feel like they don't
look like an actual Mac app if I don't fight Swift UI a little bit.
And that's more of a complaint of the design, I guess not, maybe not the
design, but so much like the the way.
Apple has not like really made the Swift UI controls on the Mac look
like the actual Swift UI controls.
I'm like, oh, this is how really Good Mac app does it, and then
you do it in Swift ui and it looks like a iOS app that had been poured
Sean Allen (guest): over that.
Yeah, I, that's my biggest
Leo Dion (host): complaint.
I agree though, a hundred percent.
If you're building, don't fight Swift ui, but the, but
I feel like if I did it in.
and I don't think it's worth it, but if I did an advocate,
I think I would look nicer.
Sean Allen (guest): Unfortunately it's funny, I remember when they first
announced Swift ui, I was actually like live streaming the announcement
and I tweeted out, I was like, swift ui, I'm skeptical because like
at the time, if you remember when Swift five first came out, everyone
was just like glowing about it.
Gushing.
How awesome it was.
And I was like one of the only people to be like I don't know.
I love Swift UI by the way.
I'm not, I'm still not there.
But the main reason I was skeptical cause I was like, Yeah, if you
just do a basic list or a, again, all the default builtin forms.
, all the built-in stuff.
I was like, yeah, it works great.
And I was like, all the apps are gonna look the same.
That's what, that was my thinking, like the day it was announced, I was
like yeah, everyone's gonna use that.
It's, that was the big
Leo Dion (host): complaint about Catalyst too, was like, oh, if you're
just gonna build an iOS app and pour it to the Mac, it's not gonna look
as great as a fully Native Mac app.
Yeah,
Sean Allen (guest): exactly.
So I've come around to, again, back to UIKit and Swift UI just being
a tool like use, use it properly.
Now my beliefs are because the app, I am building creator view, I do
want it to look like an Apple app.
So I love using all the default built-in stuff.
I want it to feel very native.
But if you wanna build one of those like whimsical, fun, unique ui, maybe you are
better off sticking with UI kit because then you do have all the flexibility.
But if you are cool it looking like an Apple app, Vince, with
your UIs, probably the better way.
And I
Leo Dion (host): think there's a lot there.
The, to me, the gains of Swift UI and the architecture patterns
and the whole way you manage.
two way binding, I think way outweigh the losses you get on
creating cool animations, and especially in the long term.
Because what ends up happening is in two or three years, like
Apple will add the stuff like we know Swift UI is the future.
So why would I want to build an app?
Just using UI kit only or only AppKit and then be screwed in two
or three years because there's a ton of cool stuff I can do in Swift ui.
Sean Allen (guest): I think I some people are saying it, but I think this
gets lost a lot, is that iOS development or just developing for Apple platforms
is only getting harder and harder.
How back in the day there was, what, two screen sizes?
Now there's eight different screen sizes for iPhone and iPad, and now
we're gonna get a headset coming soon.
So like you said, the gains on being able.
You know the, with the gain Swift UI gives you, even if you used Apple
stuff, far outweigh trying to write everything custom for all the platforms.
You're just biting off so much work when you tried to do it that way
and it's is all that worth it or can you just not fight Swift ui?
Go with Apple stuff.
And be more productive, your team on all the platforms, because
there's so many things that like take into account now with iOS
Leo Dion (host): development.
Exactly.
Sean, thank you so much for coming on the show.
This has been a fantastic conversation.
Glad to finally get you on.
Where can people find you online?
Sean Allen (guest): Yeah, so youtube.com/@SeanAllen, or on Twitter.
Sean Allen at Sean Allen underscore dev.
Awesome.
Leo Dion (host): Thank you again for coming up.
This was really fun.
Appreciate.
Yeah.
I'll do it again.
Hopefully people can find me on Twitter at leogdion.
On Mastodon leogdion@c.im.
If you're watching this on YouTube, please and subscribe.
I'd really appreciate it, and if you're listening to this on a
podcast player, Gimme a review.
And if there's anything you wanna listen to or have on the show to talk
about a specific topic reach out to me.
Like we said, please reply.
You can DM me, my dms are open.
It's a great way to network.
Thank you.
And that's it.
And we'll talk to you in a couple weeks.
Talk to you later, everybody.
Alright.
Alright, everybody.