WEBVTT 00:00:02.970 --> 00:00:06.870 Matt Abrahams: Doom loops can be one of the biggest barriers to effective 00:00:06.870 --> 00:00:11.610 communication, yet we can quiet the chatter and regulate our emotions. 00:00:11.940 --> 00:00:15.180 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:15.180 --> 00:00:16.860 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:17.190 --> 00:00:20.400 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:20.940 --> 00:00:23.710 Today I'm really excited to speak with Ethan Kross. 00:00:23.730 --> 00:00:27.030 Ethan is an award-winning professor of management and organizations at the 00:00:27.030 --> 00:00:30.870 University of Michigan's Ross School of Business, and he is a director 00:00:30.870 --> 00:00:33.120 of its emotion and self-control lab. 00:00:33.570 --> 00:00:36.629 He studies emotion regulation and the conscious mind. 00:00:37.080 --> 00:00:40.620 Ethan has written two bestselling books, Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, 00:00:40.675 --> 00:00:42.385 Why It Matters, and How to Harness It. 00:00:42.714 --> 00:00:46.974 And his latest book is Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You. 00:00:47.334 --> 00:00:48.055 Welcome Ethan. 00:00:48.055 --> 00:00:50.754 I'm really excited for our conversation. 00:00:51.105 --> 00:00:53.364 Ethan Kross: It's a delight and honor to be here, Matt. 00:00:53.364 --> 00:00:56.694 I've been looking forward to this for a while now, so glad we can make it happen. 00:00:56.935 --> 00:00:57.625 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:00:57.625 --> 00:00:58.405 Shall we get started? 00:00:58.795 --> 00:00:59.785 Ethan Kross: Yeah, let's do it. 00:01:00.025 --> 00:01:02.574 Matt Abrahams: So let's start our chat about chatter. 00:01:02.605 --> 00:01:06.054 Your work on chatter explores our internal self-talk and how 00:01:06.054 --> 00:01:08.035 it can hijack our performance. 00:01:08.304 --> 00:01:09.925 Can you explain how this happens? 00:01:10.134 --> 00:01:10.525 Ethan Kross: Yeah. 00:01:10.585 --> 00:01:13.345 We should probably start by defining what chatter means. 00:01:13.585 --> 00:01:17.095 Chatter refers to getting stuck in a negative thought loop, and 00:01:17.095 --> 00:01:21.475 they're really two kind of telltale signs that you are experiencing it. 00:01:21.475 --> 00:01:25.255 So one is you've got a legitimate problem that you're facing. 00:01:25.255 --> 00:01:27.505 Maybe it's a problem at work, maybe it's a problem at home, and you're 00:01:27.505 --> 00:01:32.065 motivated to work through that problem, to use your glorious, marvelous 00:01:32.070 --> 00:01:34.485 brain to come up with a solution. 00:01:34.485 --> 00:01:39.225 The problem is you're not successful, so you keep on trying to work through 00:01:39.225 --> 00:01:43.125 the problem, but you don't make any progress and you start spinning. 00:01:43.275 --> 00:01:46.335 Sometimes you call this worry, sometimes we call rumination. 00:01:46.455 --> 00:01:50.795 The common thread, there's a legitimate problem, but you're not progressing. 00:01:51.035 --> 00:01:53.524 So that's one sign that you're experiencing this state of chatter. 00:01:53.524 --> 00:01:55.955 Another is you just berate yourself incessantly. 00:01:56.074 --> 00:01:56.854 I'm an idiot. 00:01:56.854 --> 00:01:57.634 Such an idiot. 00:01:57.634 --> 00:01:58.685 How can I have done this? 00:01:58.685 --> 00:02:00.274 And you just pile on yourself. 00:02:00.425 --> 00:02:02.375 How does this undermine performance? 00:02:02.375 --> 00:02:05.465 One way it does so is by consuming your attention. 00:02:05.465 --> 00:02:07.445 So let me ask you this question, Matt. 00:02:07.445 --> 00:02:11.935 Have you ever been in a situation where you sit down to read a few pages in a 00:02:11.935 --> 00:02:16.325 book, and under oath you would swear to a judge that you've read the information on 00:02:16.325 --> 00:02:19.955 the page except you get to the end and you do not remember a damn thing you've read. 00:02:20.375 --> 00:02:24.239 Matt Abrahams: Ethan, that happens so frequently that it is common. 00:02:24.570 --> 00:02:27.540 Ethan Kross: Well, and it's, in my experience, talking to lots of people 00:02:27.540 --> 00:02:32.130 about this stuff over the years, this is a universal experience we all have at times. 00:02:32.519 --> 00:02:34.739 And chatter just promotes this. 00:02:34.739 --> 00:02:36.060 So how does this work? 00:02:36.359 --> 00:02:39.915 We have a limited capacity to focus our attention. 00:02:40.049 --> 00:02:44.280 Our attentional resources are a precious, limited commodity in our 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:50.420 brains, and chatter acts like a sponge that consumes that limited capacity. 00:02:50.480 --> 00:02:54.049 It leaves very little leftover that allows us to do the things 00:02:54.049 --> 00:02:54.920 that we want or need to do. 00:02:54.920 --> 00:02:56.750 So that's one way it can undermine our performance. 00:02:57.019 --> 00:03:00.890 The other thing it can lead to is something that we call analysis paralysis. 00:03:01.070 --> 00:03:05.390 Here, the idea is you start overthinking things that you can normally do 00:03:05.630 --> 00:03:10.730 without thinking to the point where the entire performance crumbles. 00:03:11.089 --> 00:03:13.549 If you watch sports, you see this happening all the time to 00:03:13.549 --> 00:03:15.140 athletes who choke under pressure. 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:19.330 All of a sudden the second baseman, who could historically throw the ball to 00:03:19.330 --> 00:03:23.590 first base with their eyes closed, now can't get anywhere near the vicinity. 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.940 That is also a function of chatter, and those are two powerful detriments to our 00:03:27.940 --> 00:03:29.545 ability to excel in performance context. 00:03:30.524 --> 00:03:35.415 Matt Abrahams: So chatter sucks up our cognitive bandwidth and it has us 00:03:35.475 --> 00:03:39.285 doing things more consciously than we might normally do it, and that's what 00:03:39.285 --> 00:03:40.904 gets in the way of us performing well. 00:03:40.964 --> 00:03:43.904 I see this play out all the time in the work I do around helping 00:03:43.904 --> 00:03:46.695 people feel more comfortable and confident in communicating. 00:03:46.695 --> 00:03:50.744 Anxiety around speaking gets into this chatter loop very easily. 00:03:51.075 --> 00:03:54.674 But what are some techniques we can use to break this cycle? 00:03:55.095 --> 00:03:59.025 Ethan Kross: An early experience that I had with analysis paralysis was when I was 00:03:59.025 --> 00:04:01.065 first public speaking as a grad student. 00:04:01.065 --> 00:04:03.705 One of the first classes I taught, it went well. 00:04:03.885 --> 00:04:06.885 I got some feedback though that said that I had forgotten to smile 00:04:06.975 --> 00:04:12.335 enough, and so in the second time I came back I overcorrected, and like 00:04:12.335 --> 00:04:16.595 I smiled so widely that it disrupted, I forgot what I wanted to say. 00:04:16.985 --> 00:04:17.975 Matt Abrahams: And that happens a lot. 00:04:17.975 --> 00:04:21.245 People get caught up on things like they hear themselves saying or they know 00:04:21.245 --> 00:04:24.545 what they wanted to say in a certain way, and then they get into these doom 00:04:24.545 --> 00:04:29.015 loops that prevent them from performing well and how do we get out of that? 00:04:29.395 --> 00:04:30.685 Ethan Kross: So here's the good news. 00:04:30.775 --> 00:04:31.915 You can get out of it. 00:04:32.155 --> 00:04:35.935 More good news, if someone has told you about a tool that worked for them, 00:04:35.935 --> 00:04:38.094 but it didn't work for you, no problem. 00:04:38.335 --> 00:04:43.045 Because what we have learned from the science is that different tools work for 00:04:43.045 --> 00:04:45.055 different people in different situations. 00:04:45.145 --> 00:04:47.485 There are no one size fits all solutions. 00:04:47.775 --> 00:04:52.365 I think of managing your chatter a lot like becoming physically fit. 00:04:52.605 --> 00:04:56.655 So most of us have goals to be physically fit for different reasons. 00:04:56.655 --> 00:04:57.915 Some of us want bigger muscles. 00:04:57.915 --> 00:04:59.625 Some of us wanna be able to run longer. 00:04:59.805 --> 00:05:03.945 Based on who you are and your goals, you're gonna benefit from doing different 00:05:03.945 --> 00:05:05.985 kinds of exercises and routines. 00:05:06.295 --> 00:05:09.775 The same is true when it comes to managing your chatter. 00:05:10.045 --> 00:05:11.335 So what can you do? 00:05:11.665 --> 00:05:15.355 Well, there are some things you could just do on your own, basic ways of shifting 00:05:15.355 --> 00:05:19.555 the way you're thinking or behaving that can turn the volume on your chatter down. 00:05:19.765 --> 00:05:24.475 One category of tools that a lot of people benefit from or call distancing tools. 00:05:24.835 --> 00:05:29.185 So here the idea is when you find yourself zoomed in very narrowly on 00:05:29.185 --> 00:05:33.085 a problem and you're ruminating about it, let's find a way to help you step 00:05:33.085 --> 00:05:36.535 back and look at the circumstance a bit more objectively, almost like 00:05:36.535 --> 00:05:38.125 you'd be hearing it from a friend. 00:05:38.335 --> 00:05:41.485 Most of us have had the experience of finding it much easier for 00:05:41.485 --> 00:05:45.445 us to give great advice to a friend as compared to ourselves. 00:05:45.775 --> 00:05:47.365 There's a name for this phenomenon. 00:05:47.365 --> 00:05:48.535 We've studied it in my lab. 00:05:48.535 --> 00:05:52.555 It's called Solomon's Paradox, named after the Bible's King Solomon. 00:05:52.945 --> 00:05:57.205 King Solomon was known for being super wise when it came to other people. 00:05:57.475 --> 00:06:00.295 When it came to himself, he made terrible decisions. 00:06:00.630 --> 00:06:01.859 This is true of all of us. 00:06:01.979 --> 00:06:03.840 So how do you step outside yourself? 00:06:04.109 --> 00:06:05.219 Lots of ways to do it. 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:08.789 One tool that I'm fond of is called distanced self-talk. 00:06:09.270 --> 00:06:12.150 So what this involves is trying to work through a problem 00:06:12.359 --> 00:06:14.280 using your own name and you. 00:06:14.490 --> 00:06:17.760 So if I'm really stressed out before a big presentation, I might think 00:06:17.760 --> 00:06:20.340 to myself, all right, Ethan, how are you gonna manage this situation? 00:06:20.340 --> 00:06:22.229 How have you managed a situation before? 00:06:22.505 --> 00:06:24.755 Here's why distanced self-talk helps. 00:06:24.965 --> 00:06:28.985 It leverages language to shift our perspective. 00:06:29.315 --> 00:06:33.275 Most of the time that we use the word you or a name, we're using 00:06:33.275 --> 00:06:38.435 those parts of speech when we think about or refer to someone else. 00:06:38.945 --> 00:06:43.265 So the link in a person's mind between the word you as an example, and another 00:06:43.265 --> 00:06:45.250 person is about as strong as you can get. 00:06:45.695 --> 00:06:49.140 So when you use that part of speech to reference yourself, it's essentially 00:06:49.140 --> 00:06:52.230 turning on the brain machinery for thinking about someone else. 00:06:52.620 --> 00:06:55.800 Makes it a lot easier for us to work through our problems objectively. 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:57.150 So that's one tool you can use. 00:06:57.570 --> 00:07:01.740 Another tool is something that I call mental time travel into the future. 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:02.970 Super simple. 00:07:03.210 --> 00:07:07.390 How am I gonna feel about this presentation three hours from now, three 00:07:07.390 --> 00:07:09.550 days from now, three years from now? 00:07:09.700 --> 00:07:13.030 All of our emotions they take place on a timeline. 00:07:13.030 --> 00:07:15.940 So you're living your life, something happens and emotion 00:07:15.940 --> 00:07:20.560 gets spiked, and as time goes on, the emotion eventually fades. 00:07:20.860 --> 00:07:25.540 When we're consumed with chatter, we zoom in on the peak of that 00:07:25.540 --> 00:07:28.870 experience and the awfulness, oh my God, everyone's staring at me. 00:07:28.870 --> 00:07:31.300 And what if I forget to say what I need to say? 00:07:31.300 --> 00:07:33.605 What if to go to the bathroom, and blah, blah, blah. 00:07:34.025 --> 00:07:38.495 It is amazing, I should add, that how creative we can be in coming up with 00:07:38.495 --> 00:07:40.625 worst case scenarios in those moments. 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:45.390 So when you zoom in on the pinnacle of the negative experience, what 00:07:45.390 --> 00:07:51.090 you lose sight of is something that you know at your core to be true. 00:07:51.390 --> 00:07:54.030 You know this to be true because you've experienced what I'm about 00:07:54.030 --> 00:07:58.650 to describe millions of times in your life, which is the emotion has 00:07:58.650 --> 00:08:02.970 come and has increased, but then as time has gone on, it has faded. 00:08:03.420 --> 00:08:06.000 So when you jump into the mental time travel vision, you think, hey, how 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:06.945 am I gonna feel about this tomorrow? 00:08:07.544 --> 00:08:08.294 Or next week? 00:08:08.565 --> 00:08:14.025 It automatically makes accessible this notion that what you're going through, 00:08:14.354 --> 00:08:16.875 as awful as it is, it's temporary. 00:08:17.234 --> 00:08:18.435 It will eventually fade. 00:08:18.734 --> 00:08:22.005 And that does something very powerful to a mind that is racked with chatter. 00:08:22.484 --> 00:08:24.885 It gives it hope, and that turns the volume down too. 00:08:24.885 --> 00:08:26.054 So those are just two examples. 00:08:26.054 --> 00:08:27.070 There are dozens of tools out there. 00:08:27.855 --> 00:08:31.335 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that, the distanced self-talk, putting 00:08:31.365 --> 00:08:35.565 yourself as the person you're giving advice to, and then asking yourself 00:08:35.565 --> 00:08:36.885 what this means in the future. 00:08:37.095 --> 00:08:41.475 I've heard things like writing things down, just recognizing mindfulness 00:08:41.475 --> 00:08:44.715 teaches us that this is what I'm experiencing in the moment, all of those 00:08:44.715 --> 00:08:48.645 give us a little bit of space to be able to manage, so thank you for that. 00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:52.560 Given that a lot of our interactions are mediated, they're virtual, they're 00:08:52.560 --> 00:08:56.189 through social media, I'm curious if you've found that there are any 00:08:56.189 --> 00:09:00.449 differences in our self-talk or how we should approach those interactions? 00:09:01.350 --> 00:09:04.560 Ethan Kross: I think it's really important for us to be mindful 00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:09.240 of the modality that we are communicating to other people through. 00:09:09.450 --> 00:09:14.820 Technology has provided us with just enormous opportunities to be more 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:18.670 efficient and effective, but there are some trade offs that you get. 00:09:18.819 --> 00:09:23.439 So here's something I think about often when it comes to chatter and technology. 00:09:23.589 --> 00:09:27.819 We know from lots of research that when people experience strong emotional 00:09:27.819 --> 00:09:32.770 reactions of the sort that characterize chatter, they're intensely motivated 00:09:32.980 --> 00:09:37.540 to share the glory that is streaming through their mind with other people. 00:09:37.810 --> 00:09:38.959 That is, they wanna talk about it. 00:09:39.359 --> 00:09:44.305 Now, in the real, in the non-social media, non-technology, quote unquote, 00:09:44.305 --> 00:09:49.315 real world, there are some obstacles that are embedded into life that prevent 00:09:49.315 --> 00:09:53.395 you from immediately talking about your chatter in the instant that it 00:09:53.395 --> 00:09:55.645 has spiked and is perhaps most extreme. 00:09:55.795 --> 00:10:00.675 Number one, you've gotta find someone to talk to and people 00:10:00.675 --> 00:10:02.145 aren't like always available. 00:10:02.145 --> 00:10:05.565 And then once you find them, they may not even be able to listen to you, right? 00:10:05.565 --> 00:10:08.235 So you've gotta wait some time to find someone. 00:10:08.235 --> 00:10:12.255 And then what often happens as time passes, some scientists 00:10:12.255 --> 00:10:16.365 describe time as a component of our psychological immune system. 00:10:17.475 --> 00:10:22.995 That is, time works to reduce the intensity of our emotional responses. 00:10:22.995 --> 00:10:26.005 As time goes on, our emotions fade, right? 00:10:26.005 --> 00:10:27.925 So you're waiting to talk to someone in the real world. 00:10:27.925 --> 00:10:31.525 You finally, you know, my wife, I finally reconnect with her five hours 00:10:31.525 --> 00:10:33.865 later, I'm not as upset as I was before. 00:10:34.075 --> 00:10:39.175 Social media though, gives us access to a network at all times, and when you couple 00:10:39.175 --> 00:10:44.074 it with smartphones, you whip it out at the very peak, and then you're sharing. 00:10:44.285 --> 00:10:47.735 And there's one other thing to keep in mind, which is, on social media, 00:10:47.855 --> 00:10:52.805 I am sharing my inner thoughts and sometimes frustrations into a text box. 00:10:53.105 --> 00:10:58.295 When I am face-to-face with someone, I'm in the presence of another human 00:10:58.295 --> 00:11:04.475 being who is sending me all of this rich information back about how what I'm doing 00:11:04.475 --> 00:11:06.485 and how I'm behaving is affecting them. 00:11:06.814 --> 00:11:11.750 That is, your face, your body is sending me information about how 00:11:11.750 --> 00:11:16.339 you are feeling, and that can constrain the way I behave to you. 00:11:16.670 --> 00:11:20.150 Like sometimes, Matt, I'll be honest, like when I'm pissed off, I mean, it's like 00:11:20.150 --> 00:11:22.370 a Robert De Niro film in there, right? 00:11:22.370 --> 00:11:26.385 Like the expletives that are going, if I said some of these things out 00:11:26.385 --> 00:11:28.815 loud, I would be in big trouble. 00:11:29.055 --> 00:11:31.845 I would never talk to you that way. 00:11:32.085 --> 00:11:34.275 I wouldn't talk to any other human being that way. 00:11:34.605 --> 00:11:38.715 And it's because you are calibrating how I communicate. 00:11:38.775 --> 00:11:43.095 So I think it's just really important to be mindful of these modality differences, 00:11:43.095 --> 00:11:48.255 'cause we do see that people are much more likely to share emotional information in 00:11:48.255 --> 00:11:52.695 an unfiltered way on social media that can sometimes get them in big trouble. 00:11:53.145 --> 00:11:55.575 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, and I think it's important to always be thinking 00:11:55.575 --> 00:11:59.685 about the channel and what that means for how and when, and how specific 00:11:59.685 --> 00:12:01.095 you can be in your communication. 00:12:01.305 --> 00:12:05.115 I really like that idea of time being part of the immune system and 00:12:05.115 --> 00:12:07.035 really helping calm things down. 00:12:07.035 --> 00:12:08.025 I appreciate that. 00:12:08.565 --> 00:12:13.200 You've said that a common piece of bad advice is simply get over the 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.120 negative feelings that people have. 00:12:15.420 --> 00:12:19.770 I'm curious, why is that such a bad idea, and if it is, what are some 00:12:19.770 --> 00:12:24.165 communication frameworks or tools you can share with us that we can use to 00:12:24.165 --> 00:12:28.845 acknowledge others' negative feelings, without just saying, hey, get over it. 00:12:28.845 --> 00:12:31.005 How can we help them process those feelings? 00:12:31.335 --> 00:12:34.845 Ethan Kross: Yeah, just get over it doesn't really give people a 00:12:34.845 --> 00:12:38.145 whole lot of tactical information to help them get over it. 00:12:38.235 --> 00:12:41.385 I think a lot of people, when they're struggling, they're highly 00:12:41.385 --> 00:12:43.515 motivated to reduce that struggle. 00:12:43.750 --> 00:12:46.780 They don't wanna stay in that state, for the most part. 00:12:46.959 --> 00:12:49.719 And so when you just tell people, just get over it, it's not like 00:12:49.719 --> 00:12:51.130 they're not trying to do so. 00:12:51.280 --> 00:12:55.569 In my latest book, I tell this anecdote where my wife and I were driving back 00:12:55.569 --> 00:12:59.230 from dinner in Detroit with another couple, very close friends of ours, 00:12:59.349 --> 00:13:03.954 and the husband has been experiencing some real stress at work, and it was 00:13:03.954 --> 00:13:07.645 the source of some chatter, and he was describing it to us in the car. 00:13:07.645 --> 00:13:11.395 And his wife says to him, yeah, why don't you just think differently about it? 00:13:11.395 --> 00:13:12.895 Effectively like, just get over it. 00:13:12.984 --> 00:13:17.265 And he turns to her and goes, yeah, easier bleeping said, than done. 00:13:17.425 --> 00:13:19.875 And he did not say bleeping, I'll let you fill in the blanks. 00:13:20.025 --> 00:13:22.415 And so the idea is, okay, but how? 00:13:22.555 --> 00:13:25.505 It's equivalent to like, just get in shape, just lose weight. 00:13:25.655 --> 00:13:30.335 But I've never taught you the exercises and nutritional regimens 00:13:30.335 --> 00:13:32.525 you need to accomplish those goals. 00:13:32.705 --> 00:13:36.095 What is the best way of supporting other people when they're struggling 00:13:36.095 --> 00:13:37.235 with chatter or big emotions? 00:13:37.805 --> 00:13:42.094 There's a two-step science-based framework that I'm particularly fond of. 00:13:42.334 --> 00:13:45.305 I'm fond of it because it's grounded in rigorous science. 00:13:45.484 --> 00:13:49.834 I'm also fond of it because I have personally found enormous value in it. 00:13:49.925 --> 00:13:53.344 Because before I came in contact with this framework, people would come to me 00:13:53.344 --> 00:13:55.114 for help and I didn't know what to say. 00:13:55.114 --> 00:13:58.234 Like, sorry, I feel for you, but now I have a guide. 00:13:58.234 --> 00:14:00.400 So what is in, what are the steps in this framework? 00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:04.270 Step one is emotionally connect with the person. 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.580 Listen to the problem, validate what they're experiencing, show empathy, 00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:13.210 connect with them, communicate that you are there for them. 00:14:13.210 --> 00:14:14.500 They have your support. 00:14:14.560 --> 00:14:16.720 And also learn about the circumstance. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.070 You need to wrap your head around it. 00:14:18.160 --> 00:14:22.630 Once you have a sense that those social and emotional connections have been 00:14:22.630 --> 00:14:28.670 forged, then you wanna shift to starting to work with that person to help broaden 00:14:28.790 --> 00:14:34.459 their perspective, help give them actual tools that can benefit them, right? 00:14:34.459 --> 00:14:36.290 So Matt, you come to me with a problem. 00:14:36.349 --> 00:14:39.439 I listen, I learn, you know that I'm genuinely here for you. 00:14:39.765 --> 00:14:42.675 I might throw it back to you and be like, hey, so what would you tell me if 00:14:42.675 --> 00:14:47.055 I was in your circumstance or I was in that situation a couple of years ago. 00:14:47.055 --> 00:14:48.765 You know what really benefited me? 00:14:49.065 --> 00:14:52.935 It was actually doing this mental time travel thing where I went into the future. 00:14:52.935 --> 00:14:53.925 Maybe you try that. 00:14:54.255 --> 00:14:57.255 And there are lots of different tools you could slip during 00:14:57.255 --> 00:14:58.685 that part of the conversation. 00:14:58.854 --> 00:15:04.125 But the idea is you lay the groundwork, the emotional groundwork for giving 00:15:04.125 --> 00:15:07.455 those tools at the beginning part of the conversation, and then you come 00:15:07.455 --> 00:15:09.015 into problem solving mode at the end. 00:15:09.255 --> 00:15:13.455 That's the formula for both being a good chatter advisor to someone else. 00:15:13.845 --> 00:15:17.505 It's also a formula for helping you figure out who are the people 00:15:17.505 --> 00:15:20.925 that you should put on your chatter advisory board, who are the people 00:15:20.925 --> 00:15:22.515 who do both of these things for me? 00:15:22.605 --> 00:15:26.925 Because I'll tell you, when I do audits of people's advisory boards with them, 00:15:27.075 --> 00:15:30.574 there are lots of people that folks go to talk to about their problems, 00:15:30.694 --> 00:15:31.834 they don't do both of those things. 00:15:31.834 --> 00:15:35.194 Sometimes they just co-ruminate with the other person in ways that 00:15:35.194 --> 00:15:36.844 make the situation even worse. 00:15:37.260 --> 00:15:40.500 Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea of a chatter advisory board and 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:44.819 really think about who are the people that help you, and it might be the 00:15:44.819 --> 00:15:48.900 same person or it might be different people for different situations, but 00:15:48.900 --> 00:15:50.850 I really like that proactive idea. 00:15:50.850 --> 00:15:55.380 And then as somebody who is trying to help others, we talk a lot on this show, 00:15:55.380 --> 00:15:58.500 and with a lot of people and colleagues that you and I have in common, about how 00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:02.954 we can connect, we can ask questions, we can paraphrase, we can demonstrate 00:16:02.954 --> 00:16:07.035 our empathy, to really learn about the circumstance before we begin to 00:16:07.035 --> 00:16:08.865 provide potential advice and guidance. 00:16:09.045 --> 00:16:12.405 And the examples you used of advice and guidance, I think, I wanna call 00:16:12.405 --> 00:16:17.655 everybody's attention to, you didn't say you should do this, you said, in 00:16:17.655 --> 00:16:22.215 my experience, I have found this helped me, which it changes the dynamic. 00:16:22.215 --> 00:16:25.504 So the tone and manner in which you give the advice, I think is really important. 00:16:25.724 --> 00:16:27.155 Ethan Kross: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. 00:16:27.449 --> 00:16:30.449 The you should, you wanna use that very sparingly. 00:16:30.780 --> 00:16:32.430 Matt Abrahams: I have a friend who says you shouldn't 00:16:32.430 --> 00:16:34.260 should all over people, right? 00:16:34.470 --> 00:16:38.100 But saying from your own experience opens up for conversation. 00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:38.550 Ethan Kross: Yeah. 00:16:38.550 --> 00:16:42.480 And just to take that a beat further, 'cause I think it's such an incredibly 00:16:42.540 --> 00:16:48.750 insightful and important point, Matt, is why is it that the kind of softer 00:16:48.750 --> 00:16:50.939 way in to giving the info is important? 00:16:50.939 --> 00:16:56.730 It's because all human beings have this fundamental drive towards agency. 00:16:56.910 --> 00:17:01.440 It's a drive to believe, to use the technical term, that we are 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.960 capable of handling our own shit. 00:17:04.290 --> 00:17:09.240 And when you threaten that drive, it elicits a kind of defensive reactance. 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.260 And so if you could get in there a little bit softer, it makes it all easier. 00:17:13.830 --> 00:17:14.430 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:17:14.430 --> 00:17:15.780 I love the technical term. 00:17:15.780 --> 00:17:16.410 Thank you. 00:17:16.814 --> 00:17:20.234 I'd like to shift our conversation away from chatter to your latest book, Shift. 00:17:20.234 --> 00:17:22.994 You've already alluded to it, but it's all about emotional regulation, 00:17:22.994 --> 00:17:23.895 and by the way, it's fantastic. 00:17:24.630 --> 00:17:28.079 You say in there that a key to managing your inner world is to view 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:32.550 our emotions not as problems to be suppressed, but as data to be analyzed. 00:17:32.550 --> 00:17:34.320 So this is a way of reframing it. 00:17:34.350 --> 00:17:38.490 What does this shift do for us and how can we train ourselves to use this 00:17:38.490 --> 00:17:41.070 reframe so we can get some of the benefit? 00:17:41.340 --> 00:17:45.240 Ethan Kross: I think one of the big problems we have in society right now, 00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:50.490 at least in Western society, is we often, we give people these aspirational goals 00:17:50.490 --> 00:17:55.650 to live lives free of negative emotions, striving for happiness all the time. 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.130 Sometimes this leads to what we call toxic positivity. 00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:01.050 And here's the problem with that. 00:18:01.050 --> 00:18:04.050 Number one, you're giving people an impossible goal. 00:18:04.295 --> 00:18:08.075 There's no way you can achieve this goal of never experiencing negative emotions. 00:18:08.375 --> 00:18:12.755 Number two, it is an undesirable goal because your negative emotions in 00:18:12.755 --> 00:18:14.615 the right proportions are helpful. 00:18:14.855 --> 00:18:16.385 Let me give you a couple of examples. 00:18:16.415 --> 00:18:21.155 Anxiety, when I don't experience any anxiety before an important presentation, 00:18:21.325 --> 00:18:26.705 the performance I deliver is not as good as when I do experience low anxiety. 00:18:26.945 --> 00:18:27.785 Why is that? 00:18:27.965 --> 00:18:33.725 Because the anxiety is information that tells me, hey, dopey, trying to start 00:18:33.875 --> 00:18:37.415 looking over your slides and making sure it's all top of mind, right? 00:18:37.475 --> 00:18:40.355 If I don't do that, I just walk in, it doesn't go as well. 00:18:40.595 --> 00:18:46.564 Anger is what motivates me to intervene when my daughter doesn't put on her 00:18:46.564 --> 00:18:48.485 helmet when she's riding her bike. 00:18:48.845 --> 00:18:52.145 So we experience anger when our conception of what is right and 00:18:52.145 --> 00:18:56.015 wrong is transgressed, and there's an opportunity for you to fix the situation, 00:18:56.225 --> 00:18:58.175 and you approach, you intervene. 00:18:58.445 --> 00:19:00.605 In the right proportions those are healthy. 00:19:00.815 --> 00:19:04.055 The big problem, of course, is we often experience negative 00:19:04.055 --> 00:19:05.764 emotions out of proportion. 00:19:05.975 --> 00:19:09.754 That's why it's important to understand how to regulate it, but we really need 00:19:09.754 --> 00:19:13.655 to understand that we should not be throwing the baby out with the bath water. 00:19:13.805 --> 00:19:18.785 Just because negative emotions are harmful some of the time doesn't mean that they 00:19:18.785 --> 00:19:20.135 don't serve a vital role in our lives. 00:19:21.135 --> 00:19:23.445 Matt Abrahams: Taking that reframe really can help. 00:19:23.595 --> 00:19:27.615 When I feel my anxiety before giving a speech or my anger with one of my 00:19:27.615 --> 00:19:31.875 kids because they're driving too fast, when I see that as, hey, this is input 00:19:31.875 --> 00:19:35.895 for me to then act upon rather than something to bury deep inside or get 00:19:35.895 --> 00:19:38.955 overwhelmed by, I can really make a difference and I appreciate that. 00:19:39.225 --> 00:19:42.225 It, again, takes that little bit of distancing to give yourself 00:19:42.225 --> 00:19:43.485 that space to do that though. 00:19:44.805 --> 00:19:47.205 Before we end, I always ask people three questions. 00:19:47.205 --> 00:19:50.115 One I make up just for you and the other two I've been asking people as 00:19:50.115 --> 00:19:51.585 long as the podcast has been around. 00:19:51.585 --> 00:19:52.215 Are you up for that? 00:19:52.365 --> 00:19:52.635 Ethan Kross: Yeah. 00:19:52.635 --> 00:19:53.295 Let's do it. 00:19:53.505 --> 00:19:54.345 Matt Abrahams: Question number one. 00:19:54.345 --> 00:19:55.935 You have studied awe. 00:19:56.205 --> 00:20:00.435 Can you tell us very quickly what awe is and what have you learned about it? 00:20:00.735 --> 00:20:01.125 Ethan Kross: Yeah. 00:20:01.125 --> 00:20:04.155 Awe is an emotion we experience when we're in the presence of 00:20:04.155 --> 00:20:05.925 something vast and indescribable. 00:20:05.925 --> 00:20:08.145 Something that just feels bigger than ourselves. 00:20:08.485 --> 00:20:12.685 And what we've learned is that number one, you can experience awe 00:20:12.745 --> 00:20:13.975 from lots of different sources. 00:20:13.975 --> 00:20:15.865 So a lot of people find awe in nature. 00:20:15.865 --> 00:20:17.845 Beautiful sunset, fall foliage. 00:20:18.145 --> 00:20:22.824 I'm a science guy and I often am filled with awe when I contemplate the fact 00:20:22.824 --> 00:20:27.205 that we human beings have cracked the puzzle of interplanetary travel. 00:20:27.650 --> 00:20:31.370 That is, we have figured out how to blast a vehicle off this planet, 00:20:31.370 --> 00:20:35.570 and safely land it on planet Mars, and my mind is just can't comprehend 00:20:35.570 --> 00:20:36.830 how we figured out how to do that. 00:20:37.100 --> 00:20:39.380 When we experience this emotion of awe, it leads to what we 00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:41.120 call shrinking of the self. 00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:45.380 We feel smaller when we're contemplating something vast and indescribable. 00:20:45.380 --> 00:20:49.250 And when we feel smaller, so do all of the troubles that are weighing us down. 00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:52.370 And so it's an important reminder of another resource we possess 00:20:52.370 --> 00:20:53.480 for managing our emotions. 00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:56.774 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and awe, I think, also can be experienced internally. 00:20:56.774 --> 00:20:59.655 You can think about internal things as well, not just external. 00:20:59.655 --> 00:21:02.774 So again, it's a way of distancing and perspective taking. 00:21:03.074 --> 00:21:07.574 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:21:07.814 --> 00:21:11.745 Ethan Kross: My good friend Angela Duckworth is, I think, just 00:21:11.745 --> 00:21:17.475 exceptional at clearly talking about science that honors its richness, 00:21:17.475 --> 00:21:19.495 but still being really impactful. 00:21:19.625 --> 00:21:23.860 And I think finding that sweet spot between being able to talk 00:21:23.860 --> 00:21:29.050 with impact, but not diluting the science, is really hard to do. 00:21:29.290 --> 00:21:32.139 Matt Abrahams: She is an amazing communicator and you and Katy Milkman 00:21:32.139 --> 00:21:36.460 have both nominated her as a person that is admired, so thank you for that. 00:21:36.879 --> 00:21:40.960 Our final question, Ethan, what are the first three ingredients that go 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.780 into a successful communication recipe? 00:21:44.145 --> 00:21:49.605 Ethan Kross: Clarity, simplifying as much as you can, but not beyond that, 00:21:49.875 --> 00:21:54.390 and sharing your passion and love of what you're doing and talking about. 00:21:54.620 --> 00:21:59.445 Matt Abrahams: Clarity, simplicity, and emotion that you feel and experience. 00:21:59.775 --> 00:22:03.225 Thank you for that recipe and thank you for all the insights you've provided. 00:22:03.495 --> 00:22:05.865 A lot of us carry around a lot of chatter. 00:22:06.045 --> 00:22:09.945 It can make it hard for us to regulate our emotions and manage, and you've given us 00:22:09.945 --> 00:22:11.775 some very specific advice and guidance. 00:22:11.775 --> 00:22:15.405 The one thing I am certainly taking away as my chatter advisory board, 00:22:15.525 --> 00:22:19.275 uh, I'm sending out applications to several people to join right away. 00:22:19.305 --> 00:22:20.475 Thank you, Ethan, for your time. 00:22:20.925 --> 00:22:21.675 Ethan Kross: Thanks for having me. 00:22:24.445 --> 00:22:26.305 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:22:26.305 --> 00:22:28.345 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:22:28.675 --> 00:22:32.514 To learn more about how to manage our internal world and negativity, please 00:22:32.514 --> 00:22:35.754 listen to episode 179 with Lori Santos. 00:22:36.360 --> 00:22:41.250 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:22:41.520 --> 00:22:43.050 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:22:43.199 --> 00:22:45.510 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:22:46.050 --> 00:22:49.169 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:22:49.290 --> 00:22:51.480 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:22:51.659 --> 00:22:54.840 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:22:54.959 --> 00:23:00.430 And check out our premium offering at fastersmarter.io/premium.