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This is Grief & Pizza, a
podcast, exploring the highs

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and lows at the intersection of
business and emotional wellbeing.

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This week, we're talking to our friend,
Khe Hy, the host of the Examined

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Life podcast and a self-professed
post achievement professional.

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We unpack what that means in this episode.

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Kay is a surfer who has a side
job as a writer and podcaster.

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And I say that obviously a little
bit joking because I know when I

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read your, bio online and you talk
about, you know, Oprah for the

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new millennials, it brings up this
interesting conversation about identity.

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And

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I think you've done some amazing content
around Identity Khe and I thought it

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would be really fun to dig into that
also because when you and I first met

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on the internet, we were doing a lot of
Notion and productivity and supercharge

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your productivity and teaching online.

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And I feel like some things have changed
since then in terms of your interests

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and even what you're talking about today.

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So I thought that might be kind of a
fun way to start the conversation of

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maybe who was Khe a few years ago, five,
10 years ago, and who are you today?

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Who is Khe?

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Yes.

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Well, thank you all.

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Thank you both for having me.

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You're some of my favorite people
on the planet, so I couldn't

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be more honored, to be here.

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Man, identity.

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That's, uh, my friend once said, he's
like, I don't want fuck you money.

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I want fuck you identity.

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And I was like, Ooh, that's good.

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and so, yeah, identity.

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I guess I would say, you know, one way
that I always lead is, you know, I'm

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Lisa's husband and Saraya and Amelie's.

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Dad, that is the identity that is
tried and tested and it will be

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true for every single, you know,
from this moment on for every breath

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that I have on this on this planet.

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So that is An easy way to answer that
question, but you know that it gets more

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complicated in that, you know, I've had
different seasons of identity, right?

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And so the first season I had of
identity was being a very intense.

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Wall Street financier, working
in the hedge fund industry.

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That was, a big kind of 14 year
period of my life up until I was 35.

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Then I became an accidental entrepreneur.

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I smashed my identity to
smithereens, around my 35th.

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Uh, and then wandered onto this place,
this vast, expansive place called the

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internet where I had no fucking idea what
I was doing, who I was, what needed to be

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done, what, how to make money, nothing.

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I didn't know.

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I still don't know anything
nine years later, but I

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really knew nothing, uh, then.

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And I guess at that point, um, I
anchored into a few kind of comfortable

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containers, so to speak, that I knew
well, and they were productivity, um,

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you know, GTD fanboy, um, tried and
tested to teach people on Wall Street how

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to use GTD and little known secret is.

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Some leaders at some big, big
financial institutions use OmniFocus

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and they use GTD thanks to the little
lunch and learns that I did back in

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2012 or something like that, 2010.

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Productivity is something I
latched onto on the internet.

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Um, money, I've always
liked talking about money.

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Um, personal finance, investing,
managing your money, things

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like that, money and happiness.

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Uh, and then kind of career.

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And so those were kind of the
identity, uh, the identity cards

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that I carried on the internet.

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And there was always a joke for
those who know me, And the joke

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was come for the productivity.

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Stay for the existential.

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And because really what I wanted
to do was lure you in with topics

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that were bite sized and candy
like, but really kind of talk about.

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The shit that really matters,
sneak the vegetables in, right?

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Exactly.

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Right.

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Billy, our friend, Billy calls
it chocolate covered broccoli.

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so that was always what I,
where I wanted to take things.

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That's really what I, what I enjoy
talking about, what I enjoy writing about.

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And I think it all came to a head,
which is the moment you were alluding to

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when my whole kind of online business.

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You know, got smashed another thing
that got smashed to smithereens in

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2023 and gave me the opportunity to
just kind of hit a hit a big reset and

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just the basic reset was like, fuck it.

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I'm not putting myself in any container.

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Hopefully for the rest of my life.

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I'm just going to write about shit
that I want to write about and

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talk about things that interest me.

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and we'll just see where it takes

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me.

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Amazing.

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I know when we connected last summer,
it felt like you were in the midst

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of wrestling with that where you were
like, wait, I've built like you've built

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a huge community through Rad Reads.

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Right?

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Like you've talked about
certain topics for a while.

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I'm sure you had your, your marketing
buckets that you sort of felt

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comfortable posting content in.

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And it felt like you were really
wrestling with what if I've built

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up these expectations here and
people are expecting me to write

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about X and I want to write about Y.

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So do you feel like there was like.

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A bit of a struggle there in that
transition and how did you kind of make

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peace with that fuck it moment of I just
want to talk about what I want to talk

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about and the right people will follow.

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Tell me a little bit about that struggle.

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there's a few things to unpack there.

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One is that, the topics like money
and productivity, they're easy.

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They're just kind of known.

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Everyone knows them.

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They're really expansive.

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Five things to do before 7am.

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The one thing Warren Buffett
does that you don't do, like

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we've all seen that article.

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We still click it.

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Like I want to know the one thing Warren
Buffett does that I don't do all right.

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And I think there's this kind of
this this animal reptilian instinct

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to just want to consume that.

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It's like candy.

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And so when you're on the other
side of the equation, it's just

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so tempting and it's easier.

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And I think that's the thing.

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Um.

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That that for me was there's
like seasons of entrepreneurship.

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It's it's very hard to just like come
out guns a blazing is like I'm going to

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teach you life philosophies like no one's
there like get the fuck out of here.

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But if you're like I'm going to
teach you how to move this widget.

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To this widget, they're like, okay, I
knew I need some widget moving in my life.

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I need some, you know, I
need, I need some of that.

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And so to some extent, I, you know,
I give myself a lot of grace that

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like, That was the season of my life.

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And that was the season
of my entrepreneurship.

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And that was the season of my interest.

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Like 10 years ago, I love talking
about all of the details of how to

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craft a perfect productivity system.

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Right.

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so that was the season and I give
myself grace and that season served

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me very well for entrepreneurship.

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I think when you caught me last summer,
it was in this moment where part of it

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is like, I think that I operate in seven
year cycles and so every seven years

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I do something and then I get bored.

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And so I think I had like my, my
Wall Street kind of individual

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contributor that was about seven years.

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Then I became a manager.

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That was about another seven years.

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Then I did kind of productivity, the
more tactical side of the Internet.

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That was about seven years.

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And so now I'm 44.

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So seven years gets me into my fifties.

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And like the things that
interest me, that the concerns,

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the concerns that I have now.

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Like my wife lost her father, right?

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Like my parents are getting old.

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my kids are starting to push back
on everything that I tell them

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to, you know, the male friendships
are getting harder to maintain.

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Adult friendships are getting
harder to maintain over the years.

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We have marital problems.

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Like these are the things that are,
are, are constantly on my mind.

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Not whether, uh, obsidian.

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Or notion is a better way
to manage my grocery list.

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Right.

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And so, you know, at one point
that those were top of mind.

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And so I think though, to answer
your question, I've always

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been solving my own problems.

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Like my writing, my creativity
has always been the result of

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me solving my own problems.

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And so as my problems change, I just
didn't have the confidence before to

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be like, no, my problems have changed.

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I'm moving on to this next thing.

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There was a sunk cost fallacy.

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I've got this audience.

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I've got this brand.

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I mean, so many brands like that I
had, like I own notion dot courses.

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I was like, I was telling someone,
can you imagine if my domain

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today was notion dot courses?

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You know, that'd be a little
bit of a bad, uh, situation.

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So.

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To answer to your question, I think there
was a lack of confidence and I think

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hanging out with all, all you guys at
that retreat, mastermind, you know, there

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was some pressure there from folks, not
pressure, but some folks are saying like,

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you need to become the mindful money guy.

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That was, that was one of the
takeaways from that for me.

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And it was just like, we'll
jump to this next container.

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And I think what I realized is
like, look, I want to do this.

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Yeah.

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You're going to carry me out of this
internet game and from for that to

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happen, that means I need to have
the endurance for like another 20

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to 30 years, and so I can't be the
notion dot courses guy for 30 years.

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I can't be the mindful money guy for
20 to 30, you know, more years so.

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I'm just going to have to be Khe.

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BK.

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It's like you needed to reject,
reject the containers entirely.

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And you need to, you know, the thing
is when you reject containers, it

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gets much harder to make money.

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So we should, we should talk about that.

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Uh, containers help you make money.

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Yeah, like the being specific about, you
know, who you are, what you talk about.

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So, so tell me about that transition
then, because if money has been a

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big part of what you talk about,
and now you're like, oh shit,

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how, how am I going to earn money?

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What's next?

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What am I doing?

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What were some of the pivots that you,
you had to make or what does it mean

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now to just be Khe and still make money
and be good with how much you're making?

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Yeah, well, this is the direction of my
business has not been particularly clear.

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Let's just say I won't be leading
any masterminds for entrepreneurs.

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but I think you have to
start with the end in mind.

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And what I mean by that is you have
to really, you know, most people,

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when they said like, oh, I'm going
to be an entrepreneur, then they,

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they assume that the, the thing
that you're trying to maximize.

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Is money, right?

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And I think that that's not true, but
that's kind of the general and someone

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says, like, I want to be an entrepreneur.

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What most people hear is like this
person wants to be like wealthy.

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Right.

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And that is a consideration.

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And so I think with me, if I start
with the end in mind that there are,

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you know, I have written about this.

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I have my what I call
my success statement.

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And so what is success mean to me?

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And so success means to me is I want to
Creatively express myself daily, both from

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what I create and also how I show up, what
I wear, what I eat, you know, what music I

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listen to, um, Ben and I had so many great
conversations about music, at the retreat.

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And so that that's just creative
expression is really important to me.

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I want to control my time.

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That doesn't mean that I don't want to
work hard at, you know, I work, I probably

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average like 35 hours of work a week, but
some weeks are 50 and some weeks are zero.

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but I want to own my time, but
I want to work and I want to

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do, express myself creatively.

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I want to only be around people who
inspire me who are awesome, basically.

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I want to be around people who
bring vibes, who bring good energy.

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I want to be present with
the people that I'm with.

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You know, one of my favorite sayings
is, When I'm with you, I'm with you.

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Doesn't matter who you is.

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and then I want to surf every day.

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and so that's the end for me.

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entrepreneurship then becomes like,
look, there's a certain standard

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00:11:27,866 --> 00:11:32,038
of living that we want to have, and
entrepreneurship becomes taking that

232
00:11:32,058 --> 00:11:35,838
financial standard and taking those
four or five things I just listed off.

233
00:11:36,218 --> 00:11:40,108
And then it's like, how do I
create a container that can make

234
00:11:40,118 --> 00:11:43,248
all of those things possible
for as many days as possible?

235
00:11:43,730 --> 00:11:45,080
hopefully till like forever.

236
00:11:45,719 --> 00:11:48,199
and that to me is entrepreneurship.

237
00:11:48,199 --> 00:11:51,379
So a lot of people would look at
that and say, well, you're leaving

238
00:11:51,379 --> 00:11:52,729
a lot of money on the table.

239
00:11:52,729 --> 00:11:56,088
You could have ran with this
productivity thing you could have made.

240
00:11:56,088 --> 00:11:58,878
I mean, you know, look at some of
our peers out there that are, that

241
00:11:58,878 --> 00:12:02,718
are, that have printed money being
the writing person, the productivity

242
00:12:02,718 --> 00:12:05,388
person, the copywriting person,
the digital marketing person.

243
00:12:05,418 --> 00:12:05,838
Sure.

244
00:12:06,003 --> 00:12:07,383
Their end is different.

245
00:12:07,638 --> 00:12:14,663
And I want to say part of the reason
why I can be so, relaxed about it

246
00:12:14,733 --> 00:12:19,765
is that I entered entrepreneurship
having made a decent amount of money.

247
00:12:20,195 --> 00:12:23,255
And so a lot of people use
entrepreneurship as their

248
00:12:23,255 --> 00:12:24,765
wealth creation engine.

249
00:12:25,355 --> 00:12:27,075
I'm very fortunate.

250
00:12:27,135 --> 00:12:31,715
Um, the timing of my life, the
decisions that I made entrepreneurship

251
00:12:31,715 --> 00:12:34,675
doesn't need to be the wealth
creation, mechanism for me.

252
00:12:34,725 --> 00:12:39,655
It's a really like the wealth maintenance,
the lifestyle maintenance and like.

253
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:41,580
Little bit icing on the cake.

254
00:12:41,934 --> 00:12:44,794
and so I want people who are listening to.

255
00:12:45,014 --> 00:12:47,854
I think it's really important
to share that that advice.

256
00:12:48,024 --> 00:12:50,764
And look, I'll be super blunt
because I've shared it publicly.

257
00:12:50,764 --> 00:12:54,144
It's like I entered entrepreneurship
with savings of around like

258
00:12:54,144 --> 00:12:55,674
four and a half million dollars.

259
00:12:56,249 --> 00:12:59,019
So it's like a lot of people
become entrepreneurs to make

260
00:12:59,019 --> 00:13:00,259
four and a half million dollars.

261
00:13:00,659 --> 00:13:08,999
So I just it's just It's just yeah um
So it's just a different way to to frame

262
00:13:08,999 --> 00:13:14,819
it and I just I want everyone I I say
that Not to brag or flex or whatever.

263
00:13:14,819 --> 00:13:18,009
I say that just To put all of,
put everything that I'm going to

264
00:13:18,019 --> 00:13:21,909
say in that context, that I, you
know, I'm playing a different game.

265
00:13:21,969 --> 00:13:26,009
Um, and that enables me
to do things differently.

266
00:13:26,568 --> 00:13:27,278
Yeah, it

267
00:13:27,278 --> 00:13:31,828
sounds it sounds a lot like um, we're
in the middle of taking uh, joe's joe

268
00:13:31,828 --> 00:13:35,018
hudson's great decisions course right
now And the week that we're on right

269
00:13:35,018 --> 00:13:39,618
now is developing a set of principles
that help us make the decisions That

270
00:13:39,618 --> 00:13:43,238
we have in our lives and two of the two
of the things that it's asking you to

271
00:13:43,278 --> 00:13:48,328
to do is Does this principle help you
make the decision does this principle?

272
00:13:48,418 --> 00:13:51,428
Uh, is it does it make it more
efficient when you make decisions?

273
00:13:51,778 --> 00:13:56,023
and It's interesting the way that
you, you're describing your, what

274
00:13:56,023 --> 00:13:59,613
sound like principles to me and, and
the way that you live your life as

275
00:13:59,613 --> 00:14:04,653
an, as an end result, rather than
a kind of like evolution of Khe.

276
00:14:05,103 --> 00:14:09,370
Um, do you, do you see it like that's kind
of interesting to me that you describe it

277
00:14:09,370 --> 00:14:12,880
as starting from the end, but it sounds
like almost like you're starting from

278
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,170
the middle and like the beginning and
the end can be a little bit blurry at

279
00:14:17,170 --> 00:14:18,380
some, in some respects.

280
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:19,470
I think that.

281
00:14:20,035 --> 00:14:24,222
It's a, it's a very astute
observation and shout out to Joe.

282
00:14:24,222 --> 00:14:27,752
I was unable timing wise
to make, make that cohort.

283
00:14:28,122 --> 00:14:34,328
Um, you know, I think that I am a tourist
in Eastern philosophy and Buddhism.

284
00:14:34,763 --> 00:14:37,073
And so it's almost like the
end and the present are kind

285
00:14:37,073 --> 00:14:39,243
of one in that in that regard.

286
00:14:39,593 --> 00:14:42,883
And so I think we're just we're
actually saying the same thing,

287
00:14:42,893 --> 00:14:48,743
Ben, in the sense that I want every
moment to adhere to those principles.

288
00:14:48,773 --> 00:14:52,943
And when I say start with the
end in mind, it was more like the

289
00:14:52,973 --> 00:14:54,923
destination of entrepreneurship.

290
00:14:54,933 --> 00:14:56,823
But to me, the destination is actually.

291
00:14:57,428 --> 00:15:01,818
It collapses into the journey so
that they're actually part to me.

292
00:15:01,818 --> 00:15:04,598
They're the same thing, the
journey and the destination.

293
00:15:05,128 --> 00:15:10,858
Uh, and so, but I could see that for
others, there might be some separation,

294
00:15:10,858 --> 00:15:13,198
which is like, you know, aspirationally.

295
00:15:13,208 --> 00:15:17,338
I, I'm not in a position where someone
might listening to this might say,

296
00:15:17,368 --> 00:15:20,418
I'm not in a position where I can
turn down clients based on whether

297
00:15:20,418 --> 00:15:24,798
they're assholes or nice people,
but I want to get to the place.

298
00:15:25,358 --> 00:15:29,818
Where I can only take clients who are not
assholes and so that might be where the

299
00:15:29,818 --> 00:15:35,088
difference is Is like how quickly you're
able to pull them into your presence

300
00:15:35,928 --> 00:15:40,638
Reducing reducing the gap between those
two things and having more elasticity

301
00:15:40,638 --> 00:15:46,848
in your life is it sounds like a goal
for you So you you talk a lot and I've

302
00:15:46,848 --> 00:15:50,758
been loving this phrase, but you always
reference post achievement professionals

303
00:15:50,758 --> 00:15:55,908
now Mm hmm, and I want to ask you
beyond Achieving financial success.

304
00:15:55,908 --> 00:15:59,768
What are the, what are the drivers
or the indicators for transitioning

305
00:15:59,768 --> 00:16:01,928
to a post achievement identity?

306
00:16:02,348 --> 00:16:02,858
What does that look like?

307
00:16:04,938 --> 00:16:09,618
Well, um, the post achievement
professional just to, for, for like brief

308
00:16:09,618 --> 00:16:17,838
context is the professional who, uh, has
worshiped at the alter of achievement.

309
00:16:17,948 --> 00:16:23,408
Giving offerings and receiving
benedictions like, uh, promotions

310
00:16:23,408 --> 00:16:26,948
and media features and bonuses.

311
00:16:27,478 --> 00:16:34,692
And the preachievement professional is
just, um, maniacal or such a devotee.

312
00:16:34,867 --> 00:16:38,997
Of that, uh, that way of existing,
especially in their professional career.

313
00:16:39,897 --> 00:16:42,967
And then something happens with
the post achievement professionals.

314
00:16:42,967 --> 00:16:51,247
They start to, they start to realize like,
Hmm, maybe this isn't as good as it seems.

315
00:16:51,317 --> 00:16:55,627
And you've heard the classic story where
they ask a millionaire, you know, if you,

316
00:16:56,077 --> 00:16:59,097
how much more money would you need to be
a 10 out of 10 on the happiness scale?

317
00:16:59,097 --> 00:17:01,127
And the millionaire says double.

318
00:17:01,227 --> 00:17:03,112
And then they asked
someone with 3 million.

319
00:17:03,252 --> 00:17:05,382
How much more money would you
need to be a 10 out of 10?

320
00:17:05,742 --> 00:17:07,992
And they say double and they go
all the way up to 10 million.

321
00:17:07,992 --> 00:17:10,542
Every single person, uh, says double.

322
00:17:10,542 --> 00:17:16,672
And there's countless studies that show
this and money is a proxy, but the,

323
00:17:16,702 --> 00:17:21,122
the post achievement, um, so, so the
transition towards post achievement

324
00:17:21,522 --> 00:17:24,882
often occurs with that realization.

325
00:17:25,137 --> 00:17:29,387
Where you're just like, wait a
minute, I've been chasing, you know,

326
00:17:29,387 --> 00:17:33,427
I, you know, six figures, seven
figures, eight figures, and so on.

327
00:17:33,477 --> 00:17:40,887
And every time I get it, look, it's life
is better, but that baseline feeling

328
00:17:40,907 --> 00:17:47,477
of deep satisfaction of contentment of
inner peace of the voice in your head,

329
00:17:47,477 --> 00:17:53,227
quieting down of comparison, you know,
drifting away, diminishing towards zero.

330
00:17:53,937 --> 00:17:54,947
That shit ain't happening.

331
00:17:56,192 --> 00:18:00,892
So what, you know, I think the post
achievement professional starts to

332
00:18:00,892 --> 00:18:05,262
shine a light and scrutinize the
playbook of achievement and say, wait

333
00:18:05,262 --> 00:18:09,032
a minute, have I been sold a lie?

334
00:18:09,042 --> 00:18:14,252
Or is this playbook really
promising what it it's meant

335
00:18:14,302 --> 00:18:16,082
delivering what it what it said?

336
00:18:16,082 --> 00:18:19,082
So that that's one is you just
and that's why I left Wall Street.

337
00:18:19,792 --> 00:18:20,142
Right.

338
00:18:21,352 --> 00:18:25,742
It's, um, financial compensation
to me and I think to others, but

339
00:18:25,742 --> 00:18:29,902
I just speak for myself displays
the behavior of addiction, right?

340
00:18:30,172 --> 00:18:32,862
Where you get your first my first bonus.

341
00:18:33,072 --> 00:18:38,942
I got a 7000 signing bonus when
I was 21 years old, and I'm like,

342
00:18:38,952 --> 00:18:40,182
there's the most money I think.

343
00:18:40,332 --> 00:18:44,332
Ever seen at like one point in
time and it was just like the

344
00:18:44,342 --> 00:18:46,402
greatest feeling ever, right?

345
00:18:46,412 --> 00:18:47,972
It's kind of like getting New York.

346
00:18:48,022 --> 00:18:49,142
Yeah, it's like growing up.

347
00:18:49,152 --> 00:18:53,472
I grew up in New York So I didn't
have that like first car experience,

348
00:18:53,782 --> 00:18:57,772
uh in the suburbs But I would imagine
it's akin to being a 16 year old and

349
00:18:57,772 --> 00:19:02,392
getting a beater of a Volkswagen or
your parents old car Just the greatest

350
00:19:02,392 --> 00:19:07,322
feeling ever then what happens is the
bonuses get bigger and bigger and bigger

351
00:19:07,352 --> 00:19:15,752
and you're like, yeah, this is nice
But now what right and you need the

352
00:19:15,762 --> 00:19:19,212
bonuses to get bigger just like drinking
like the first time you get drunk.

353
00:19:19,212 --> 00:19:22,282
It's like takes two drinks and
if you drink for 28 straight

354
00:19:22,282 --> 00:19:23,962
years like I did, it takes 15.

355
00:19:24,490 --> 00:19:29,380
Drinks to get drunk and so you need
more more money, more bonuses, more

356
00:19:29,390 --> 00:19:35,650
alcohol just to maintain that one
state and the decay of that state

357
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:39,480
is is so freaking rapid, right?

358
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,870
I'd be drunk thinking about the
next time I was going to be drunk.

359
00:19:43,170 --> 00:19:43,510
Right?

360
00:19:43,570 --> 00:19:46,210
It's like I can't even enjoy
being drunk in that moment.

361
00:19:46,220 --> 00:19:48,550
You're just like, Oh, when is the
next time I get to do this thing?

362
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,820
So I think that that is one way that you,
um, that achievement wears itself in.

363
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:59,820
Um, the other is some kind of brush with
mortality, you know, losing a loved one

364
00:19:59,820 --> 00:20:02,400
prematurely, some kind of health scare.

365
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,510
Um, that would be, uh, another way.

366
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,535
Um, Another would be like people tend
to think of things with different

367
00:20:09,545 --> 00:20:13,855
milestones, like turning and we have
group coaching programs where we,

368
00:20:13,905 --> 00:20:17,285
which we help people with career
transitions, these life transitions.

369
00:20:18,275 --> 00:20:24,295
It's so funny because usually the age of
people joining is like 39 or 49 because

370
00:20:24,305 --> 00:20:27,935
they're looking down the barrel of a
milestone birthday and saying, like, wait

371
00:20:27,935 --> 00:20:33,395
a minute, I thought I was going to be off
this track, um, becoming an empty nester.

372
00:20:33,625 --> 00:20:36,825
So those are all of
the ways that catalyze.

373
00:20:37,195 --> 00:20:39,865
Uh, a shift into post achievement.

374
00:20:39,935 --> 00:20:42,795
And then once you get into
post achievement, it is

375
00:20:42,795 --> 00:20:44,245
this question of identity.

376
00:20:44,415 --> 00:20:49,905
You, you have to be, you have to
have this kind of versatile identity,

377
00:20:49,915 --> 00:20:54,325
shape shifting identity because
the identity that you held for so

378
00:20:54,325 --> 00:20:56,035
long, which is achievement, right?

379
00:20:56,035 --> 00:21:00,215
I am an, I am a high achiever
gets, um, taken away from you.

380
00:21:00,325 --> 00:21:01,205
So that would be one thing.

381
00:21:01,225 --> 00:21:05,315
Another would be a much, much larger
conversation, but kind of this

382
00:21:05,315 --> 00:21:06,955
question of like, what's enough money.

383
00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:12,300
Right, because you know that that as
we know from our friend Joe, that's not

384
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:18,643
actually a rational, logical question,
you know, if you're scared of going broke,

385
00:21:18,653 --> 00:21:23,893
or if you're scared of, you know, making
bad financial decisions, more money.

386
00:21:24,393 --> 00:21:29,213
Usually does not make those
feelings go away, right?

387
00:21:29,377 --> 00:21:32,787
And so it's kind of finding this
peacefulness with money, which, by

388
00:21:32,787 --> 00:21:35,057
the way, to Murray's question earlier.

389
00:21:36,027 --> 00:21:39,837
All of the things that I've been writing
about and talking about for the past

390
00:21:39,887 --> 00:21:42,167
nine years are still very relevant.

391
00:21:42,427 --> 00:21:44,577
It's just the way you talk about them.

392
00:21:45,067 --> 00:21:46,267
It's just more in my mind.

393
00:21:46,267 --> 00:21:48,217
It's just it's just more mature.

394
00:21:48,447 --> 00:21:50,587
That's like corresponding
with hopefully my.

395
00:21:51,152 --> 00:21:52,412
Continuing maturity.

396
00:21:53,262 --> 00:21:55,172
we kind of hinted on
it earlier about these.

397
00:21:55,282 --> 00:21:59,772
You said that you had these seven
year periods of like, of shifting.

398
00:22:00,122 --> 00:22:03,212
And one thing that I took away from
that retreat that we went to was

399
00:22:03,252 --> 00:22:07,822
that a lot of people have these long
periods of identity and then they

400
00:22:07,832 --> 00:22:09,882
immediately transition to the next one.

401
00:22:09,912 --> 00:22:10,892
And there, there,

402
00:22:10,902 --> 00:22:11,832
there's a loss, a

403
00:22:11,832 --> 00:22:15,622
sense of loss that isn't being
grieved in, in losing that identity.

404
00:22:16,172 --> 00:22:17,852
And they, you know, you might, yeah.

405
00:22:18,192 --> 00:22:22,162
In some senses, think that you're in
post achievement, but really you're still

406
00:22:22,212 --> 00:22:26,892
haven't really fully grieved the, you
know, the loss of that previous identity.

407
00:22:27,162 --> 00:22:29,582
And so there, there becomes
this discordance in your life

408
00:22:29,582 --> 00:22:30,662
if you haven't grieved it.

409
00:22:30,692 --> 00:22:33,512
And one of the things I've been
thinking about a lot is, is how do

410
00:22:33,512 --> 00:22:36,482
we, how do we create rituals for,

411
00:22:36,542 --> 00:22:40,182
for moving past these identities and
even projects and things like that?

412
00:22:40,182 --> 00:22:43,962
Like if I've been running a software
for five years and I no longer do that.

413
00:22:44,442 --> 00:22:48,042
Like I need to have this period of
sort of like, you know, saying thank

414
00:22:48,042 --> 00:22:51,962
you for your service to the thing or
the identity and then, and then moving

415
00:22:51,962 --> 00:22:54,202
past that to like this new identity.

416
00:22:54,632 --> 00:22:56,352
Um, do you have anything
like that in your life?

417
00:22:56,352 --> 00:23:01,262
Like, you know, from 2023, like the
difficulty there and that sense of like

418
00:23:01,262 --> 00:23:02,972
losing that sense of identity there.

419
00:23:02,992 --> 00:23:03,382
Have you.

420
00:23:03,722 --> 00:23:07,252
Have you done anything in that,
like ritualize that in some

421
00:23:07,252 --> 00:23:08,732
way to, to make it easier?

422
00:23:10,172 --> 00:23:14,302
I think I'm glad that you use the
word grief with an identity because

423
00:23:14,302 --> 00:23:19,792
I think it's a, it's a very powerful
feeling that I think Achiever, Achiever

424
00:23:19,832 --> 00:23:24,112
types, now I'm going to speak in very
general terms, but Achiever types in

425
00:23:24,112 --> 00:23:27,202
general dismiss the value of feelings.

426
00:23:27,577 --> 00:23:32,697
And over index on the power of
rationality or the intellectual mind

427
00:23:33,177 --> 00:23:36,337
and so like why would you feel sad?

428
00:23:36,927 --> 00:23:40,647
about losing an identity as
a software developer or as a

429
00:23:40,647 --> 00:23:42,037
productivity writer and so on.

430
00:23:42,047 --> 00:23:43,857
It's like, what's the,
what's the point of that?

431
00:23:43,857 --> 00:23:48,837
Just move on, you know, pick up, you
know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps.

432
00:23:48,887 --> 00:23:50,327
Feelings are a waste of time.

433
00:23:50,327 --> 00:23:53,087
You've, I've heard all these
phrases on Twitter, like, you

434
00:23:53,087 --> 00:23:55,347
know, uh, happiness is progress.

435
00:23:55,387 --> 00:23:57,447
That, that's one that always befuddles me.

436
00:23:57,658 --> 00:23:59,568
and so I think you're right.

437
00:23:59,588 --> 00:24:03,862
And so for for me, and it's been
really impacted by 2 things.

438
00:24:03,862 --> 00:24:08,272
One is meeting Joe, who has
really I think that if you told

439
00:24:08,302 --> 00:24:10,442
me that I needed to feel I mean

440
00:24:10,742 --> 00:24:14,462
my wife tells me all the, she's told
me since we met that I need to feel my

441
00:24:14,462 --> 00:24:16,352
emotions more, but I never listened.

442
00:24:16,622 --> 00:24:19,022
but then Joe comes along and
he says, you need to feel more.

443
00:24:19,022 --> 00:24:23,165
I'm like, oh, a former venture capitalist
who's extremely successful, tells me

444
00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:24,665
I need to feel more, I should listen.

445
00:24:24,905 --> 00:24:25,715
you know, and also, and

446
00:24:25,715 --> 00:24:29,755
Khe, can I ask too, like, do you
feel like having another male

447
00:24:29,755 --> 00:24:33,282
example in achievement too, talking
about feelings was part of that.

448
00:24:33,282 --> 00:24:36,152
Like, oh, cause I know there's a
lot of sort of gendered, totally

449
00:24:36,512 --> 00:24:38,402
women in their feelings, you know?

450
00:24:38,432 --> 00:24:39,002
So I'm just curious

451
00:24:39,002 --> 00:24:40,732
if, if that was Yeah, absolutely.

452
00:24:40,732 --> 00:24:44,272
And not, it's, it's even more than gender.

453
00:24:44,277 --> 00:24:50,012
It's that I could see, like Joe's
career path and my career path

454
00:24:50,072 --> 00:24:54,558
have similar, threads So it's,
relatability of which, of course gender

455
00:24:54,588 --> 00:24:56,825
plays a big role in relatability.

456
00:24:56,825 --> 00:24:58,235
But I would go even further.

457
00:24:58,235 --> 00:25:01,492
I think that, you know, the way he
can talk about the economy, right?

458
00:25:01,502 --> 00:25:03,492
It makes him very relatable to me.

459
00:25:03,862 --> 00:25:09,282
the way that he talks about himself,
uh, as, as a father of two teenage

460
00:25:09,282 --> 00:25:11,762
girls is that's very relatable.

461
00:25:11,792 --> 00:25:15,162
There's a lesson in there and
business and marketing and

462
00:25:15,202 --> 00:25:17,302
avatar development and so on.

463
00:25:17,758 --> 00:25:20,278
but yes, I think the point
that you're getting at.

464
00:25:20,418 --> 00:25:24,268
Uh, is, if your wife tells you
something for a decade, you probably

465
00:25:24,268 --> 00:25:25,918
are just going to learn to tune it out.

466
00:25:26,508 --> 00:25:31,948
And if, uh, you know, successful older
white men tells you something and you'd

467
00:25:31,948 --> 00:25:33,138
be like, yeah, I'm going to listen.

468
00:25:33,138 --> 00:25:35,228
So, so absolutely.

469
00:25:35,228 --> 00:25:39,678
I would say the other place to
where that has shown up is, uh,

470
00:25:39,718 --> 00:25:41,488
and I haven't done the, the, the.

471
00:25:41,808 --> 00:25:42,798
Therapy yet.

472
00:25:42,828 --> 00:25:44,408
But I'm very, very intrigued.

473
00:25:44,408 --> 00:25:47,868
Interested is internal
family systems therapy.

474
00:25:47,878 --> 00:25:51,608
So again, funny enough, it's a
modality of therapy that I spent a

475
00:25:51,608 --> 00:25:55,948
lot of time reading about, which is
not really the way you're meant to

476
00:25:55,948 --> 00:25:58,968
experience IFS internal family systems.

477
00:25:58,968 --> 00:26:03,878
For those who aren't familiar, it's a
modality of therapy like CBT, cognitive

478
00:26:03,888 --> 00:26:05,528
behavioral theory, therapy and A.

479
00:26:05,528 --> 00:26:06,015
C.

480
00:26:06,015 --> 00:26:06,502
T.

481
00:26:06,502 --> 00:26:07,478
And others.

482
00:26:07,848 --> 00:26:14,408
Uh, but but I've listened to a lot
of people get IFS coached, uh, like

483
00:26:14,408 --> 00:26:18,448
mostly podcasts and, and when I was
coached by Joe, I would assume that

484
00:26:18,628 --> 00:26:23,468
that's a flavor of IFS and say he
wouldn't call it IFS, uh, and just

485
00:26:23,798 --> 00:26:26,438
seeing that I'm like, Oh, there is.

486
00:26:26,688 --> 00:26:28,418
There's something here
and meeting our friend.

487
00:26:28,528 --> 00:26:29,538
Yeah, there's an end meeting.

488
00:26:29,538 --> 00:26:33,878
Our, our other shared friend, Johnny,
Miller, who is a big proponent and

489
00:26:33,888 --> 00:26:36,668
advocate of the feeling side of things.

490
00:26:36,805 --> 00:26:41,775
so to answer your original question, Ben,
the, the grieving has, the ritual has

491
00:26:41,775 --> 00:26:44,665
been letting myself feel these things.

492
00:26:45,045 --> 00:26:49,815
Uh, I stopped drinking after 28 years,
right around that resort, that retreat.

493
00:26:49,815 --> 00:26:49,935
Yeah.

494
00:26:50,245 --> 00:26:55,222
And so my capacity to feel
has increased tremendously.

495
00:26:55,222 --> 00:27:00,522
I've always been a pretty regular
meditator for about a decade now, but

496
00:27:00,522 --> 00:27:03,662
I've deepened that practice even more.

497
00:27:03,662 --> 00:27:09,362
So I think the combination, the
exposure to Joe and IFS, the elimination

498
00:27:09,412 --> 00:27:14,468
of alcohol, Uh, listening to my
wife, uh, finally, and deepening

499
00:27:14,818 --> 00:27:19,098
a meditation practice have have
all kind of contributed to that.

500
00:27:19,165 --> 00:27:22,605
Um, and I just want to add the note
on grief, like I'm still grieving the

501
00:27:22,605 --> 00:27:25,515
loss of my Wall Street identity, right?

502
00:27:25,545 --> 00:27:31,600
In that, you know, that was
nine years ago, but It was, you

503
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,780
know, it was a huge achievement.

504
00:27:33,810 --> 00:27:35,690
It's something that I'm proud of.

505
00:27:36,140 --> 00:27:42,400
Um, it's something that's very in, in the
social, in one of the social worlds that

506
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,690
I operate in, that I play in or live in.

507
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,390
Uh, it's a very, very high
status, um, kind of marker.

508
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,020
Uh, and yeah, I, I guess.

509
00:27:55,355 --> 00:27:58,095
I don't want to, you know,
there's a part of me that that it

510
00:27:58,185 --> 00:28:00,655
doesn't want to fully let that go.

511
00:28:01,145 --> 00:28:05,165
Um, and I think that
that that's okay, right?

512
00:28:05,165 --> 00:28:09,305
I think that maybe in the past I
was too heavily anchored to it.

513
00:28:09,715 --> 00:28:12,355
Um, and so it was doing me a disservice.

514
00:28:12,415 --> 00:28:18,605
And now maybe I have a more
healthy, healthy relationship.

515
00:28:19,245 --> 00:28:24,865
Um, but it just goes to show that grieving
an identity, letting go of an identity

516
00:28:25,185 --> 00:28:27,425
it's a long, it takes a long time.

517
00:28:28,105 --> 00:28:28,175
It's

518
00:28:28,305 --> 00:28:29,465
not a one time event,

519
00:28:29,525 --> 00:28:29,785
right?

520
00:28:30,385 --> 00:28:31,765
You don't like push a button.

521
00:28:31,825 --> 00:28:32,075
Yeah.

522
00:28:32,095 --> 00:28:35,805
It's like the, the cycles, the waves
that maybe get smaller and smaller,

523
00:28:35,805 --> 00:28:38,355
but there's, there's always, it
feels a bit like there's always a

524
00:28:38,355 --> 00:28:42,175
little bit of information to, to
come back to us to reflect on, like

525
00:28:42,175 --> 00:28:43,835
even your relationship with status.

526
00:28:43,835 --> 00:28:44,115
Right.

527
00:28:44,570 --> 00:28:48,190
Um, and maybe even feeling some
uncomfortableness around, um,

528
00:28:48,250 --> 00:28:49,930
Oh, I shouldn't want that status.

529
00:28:49,980 --> 00:28:50,870
I'm beyond that.

530
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:52,530
I'm past that, but it's still there.

531
00:28:52,530 --> 00:28:56,110
We have to acknowledge like,
what's it, uh, there to show us.

532
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:56,450
Right.

533
00:28:57,230 --> 00:28:58,110
Absolutely.

534
00:28:58,855 --> 00:29:02,635
One thing I'm curious if you're open
to talking about because you mentioned,

535
00:29:02,675 --> 00:29:06,835
um, the stuff with your wife and
let's go there, uh, internal family

536
00:29:06,835 --> 00:29:08,735
systems, therapy, that sort of thing.

537
00:29:09,005 --> 00:29:12,845
You know, you shared with me last year,
maybe it was the year before around a

538
00:29:12,845 --> 00:29:16,665
bit of a sort of interesting therapy
experience you had with your partner.

539
00:29:16,915 --> 00:29:19,815
I'm curious if you're willing to share
a little bit about that and maybe what

540
00:29:19,815 --> 00:29:22,965
came up for you or even the impetus
for saying, I'm going to invest in

541
00:29:22,965 --> 00:29:26,645
my relationship in this way and we're
going to work on something together.

542
00:29:27,710 --> 00:29:28,270
Yeah.

543
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,417
Um, my wife, Lisa, she's, she's awesome.

544
00:29:32,457 --> 00:29:36,447
Uh, she's much wiser and much
more awakened than, than I am.

545
00:29:36,783 --> 00:29:41,103
she, it's a, it's an interesting
backdrop because we have, you know,

546
00:29:41,103 --> 00:29:44,783
obviously what you bring from your
childhood and from your, you know,

547
00:29:44,783 --> 00:29:49,903
early experience shapes, shapes so many
things and it shapes your relationships

548
00:29:49,903 --> 00:29:51,513
and how you interact with one another.

549
00:29:51,513 --> 00:29:52,053
And so, yeah.

550
00:29:52,518 --> 00:29:58,178
I think two salient, two important
facts was, um, you know, I'm, I'm

551
00:29:58,178 --> 00:30:00,618
Asian American and she's Caucasian.

552
00:30:00,638 --> 00:30:04,888
And so I grew up with a very kind
of immigrant view of, of the world,

553
00:30:05,168 --> 00:30:08,488
kind of first generation in America,
immigrant view of the world.

554
00:30:08,863 --> 00:30:12,803
Which is which when it comes
to love and marriage, there

555
00:30:12,813 --> 00:30:15,763
is a sort of pragmatism to it.

556
00:30:15,783 --> 00:30:17,303
It's not like arranged.

557
00:30:17,303 --> 00:30:20,353
My parents weren't in an arranged
marriage, and they're not in a

558
00:30:20,363 --> 00:30:24,133
loveless marriage, but I will say
that there's a there's definitely a

559
00:30:24,133 --> 00:30:28,853
pragmatism to it, and you could take
that a step further where it's like.

560
00:30:29,348 --> 00:30:36,178
At least in, in culturally for, for, for
me and my kind of peer group, it's like

561
00:30:36,558 --> 00:30:40,908
you'd rather be in a marriage that's like
unsatisfying than to get divorced, right?

562
00:30:40,958 --> 00:30:43,858
That's where the pragmatism
takes over, over the passion

563
00:30:43,878 --> 00:30:46,038
or the romance or the idealism.

564
00:30:46,668 --> 00:30:51,428
I think she grew up in a very different,
uh, household where there's a lot more,

565
00:30:51,488 --> 00:30:56,022
even though socioeconomically we probably
ended up at the same place, but there was

566
00:30:56,022 --> 00:31:00,350
a lot more about like, live your full,
your best life, your full potential,

567
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,220
like possibility and so on, where, you
know, probably, I don't know if abundance

568
00:31:05,230 --> 00:31:10,110
versus scarcity is the right, you know,
duality for what I'm about to say, but

569
00:31:10,110 --> 00:31:12,490
I think there is this much more is like
if you're not happy in your marriages

570
00:31:12,490 --> 00:31:16,910
get divorced and I think in Asian
cultures that just divorces just so much.

571
00:31:17,235 --> 00:31:18,245
Less likely.

572
00:31:18,665 --> 00:31:22,025
so we enter marriage with this thing
where it's like, Hey, if it's not going

573
00:31:22,025 --> 00:31:25,865
exactly as planned, one person's like,
whatever, that's just, that's the feature.

574
00:31:26,025 --> 00:31:28,595
And the other person's
like, that's the bug, right?

575
00:31:28,655 --> 00:31:32,515
And so you could immediately see how
that can lead to tensions because

576
00:31:32,755 --> 00:31:35,945
when you're married outside of the
honeymoon period, you could have

577
00:31:35,955 --> 00:31:37,745
the two dopest people in the world.

578
00:31:37,745 --> 00:31:41,455
You're still going to have issues
and challenges because you're humans.

579
00:31:41,745 --> 00:31:46,365
Um, so I think that that was The one
and then I had mentioned like I'm not

580
00:31:46,365 --> 00:31:48,855
a feeler and she's a deep, deep feeler.

581
00:31:48,855 --> 00:31:52,035
And so we're kind of like our
love languages are very different.

582
00:31:52,045 --> 00:31:55,145
So my love language is one
of action and of agency.

583
00:31:55,145 --> 00:31:56,385
It's like, Oh, you're sad.

584
00:31:56,385 --> 00:32:00,625
Like, let me go take the kids
so you can go get a massage.

585
00:32:00,625 --> 00:32:00,965
Right.

586
00:32:00,985 --> 00:32:02,225
Or let me clean the kitchen.

587
00:32:02,255 --> 00:32:02,635
Right.

588
00:32:02,965 --> 00:32:04,785
And she's like, no, I just want you to.

589
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,690
Sit and be there for me.

590
00:32:06,690 --> 00:32:07,500
I'm like, what is it?

591
00:32:07,550 --> 00:32:08,760
I don't even know what that means.

592
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,160
Like, can I clean the kitchen
while I'm here for you?

593
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:17,530
Um, so, you know, that's, that's kind
of, you could see how that would lead

594
00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:19,370
to tension, some sort of tension.

595
00:32:19,370 --> 00:32:23,180
So Lisa has been very proactive
in getting us, uh, marriage

596
00:32:23,180 --> 00:32:24,760
therapists and counselors and so on.

597
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,650
And so the, the experience that you're
referring to, uh, was, a weekend retreat

598
00:32:29,670 --> 00:32:35,263
with a couples, Well, just us and a
couple who are the therapists and it was,

599
00:32:35,303 --> 00:32:40,777
you know, more traditional kind of, um,
marriage counseling therapy and then, but

600
00:32:40,777 --> 00:32:44,057
then after the first day, they're like,
Hey, you guys have done this before.

601
00:32:44,057 --> 00:32:46,557
You seem to be pretty
self aware and so on.

602
00:32:46,907 --> 00:32:50,827
Um, sometimes our clients want to you.

603
00:32:50,922 --> 00:32:55,562
Go a step further and, um, go on
a psychedelic journey together.

604
00:32:55,662 --> 00:32:59,422
And we had always been, we're like
super open, like down for that stuff.

605
00:32:59,822 --> 00:33:02,472
Me more on the party side
than on the therapy side.

606
00:33:02,792 --> 00:33:06,362
But, um, we, we were always
down for, we just never knew.

607
00:33:06,362 --> 00:33:07,522
We have two young kids.

608
00:33:07,522 --> 00:33:09,562
You're like, our parents
don't live near us.

609
00:33:09,562 --> 00:33:14,412
Like when would we ever have the time
and the opportunity to, you know, just

610
00:33:14,412 --> 00:33:17,272
like burn, you know, 10 hours trippin'.

611
00:33:17,652 --> 00:33:19,082
Um, but.

612
00:33:19,987 --> 00:33:21,177
The moment was there.

613
00:33:21,187 --> 00:33:23,787
It found us when, when,
when we needed to be found.

614
00:33:23,817 --> 00:33:30,057
And yeah, it was just a really,
really, really, I mean, this was 18

615
00:33:30,077 --> 00:33:34,487
months ago, I think, or, or, yeah,
probably, probably, or a year ago.

616
00:33:34,797 --> 00:33:40,107
Um, but I mean, I remember the entire
experience like with, with vivid,

617
00:33:40,107 --> 00:33:42,907
vivid, vivid details to this day.

618
00:33:43,487 --> 00:33:47,487
And, um, so yeah, it's a Thursday
morning or Friday morning.

619
00:33:47,487 --> 00:33:52,082
We've done a bunch of, Talk more
traditional talk therapy 11 a.

620
00:33:52,082 --> 00:33:52,312
m.

621
00:33:52,312 --> 00:33:53,122
They put us in this.

622
00:33:53,192 --> 00:33:54,702
They, they do a little ceremony.

623
00:33:54,702 --> 00:33:56,052
They were in an Airbnb.

624
00:33:56,072 --> 00:34:01,302
They give us two sleeping eye masks and
what, what I guess is called a heroic

625
00:34:01,302 --> 00:34:05,362
dose of, um, MDMA and, uh, psilocybin.

626
00:34:05,702 --> 00:34:09,192
So the active, uh,
ingredient in, in mushrooms.

627
00:34:09,222 --> 00:34:09,492
Yeah.

628
00:34:09,782 --> 00:34:15,942
So I think that for, for newbies, the,
the MDMA kind of, Like primes you to

629
00:34:15,942 --> 00:34:18,862
be more happy and positive, right?

630
00:34:18,862 --> 00:34:22,372
I think it kind of roughs, it
sends some of the rougher edges

631
00:34:22,382 --> 00:34:26,982
off of the experience and then the
psilocybin can drop you and how, you

632
00:34:26,982 --> 00:34:28,902
know, however, however you see fit.

633
00:34:28,912 --> 00:34:32,852
But, um, but yeah, it was so we're just
laying there and they encourage you

634
00:34:32,852 --> 00:34:35,272
not to actually talk to one another.

635
00:34:35,492 --> 00:34:40,222
for a while just to process
your kind of your own thoughts.

636
00:34:40,222 --> 00:34:45,332
So, so it's like it's almost like the
most intense vision version of the

637
00:34:45,352 --> 00:34:48,462
apple of oculus you've ever experienced.

638
00:34:48,462 --> 00:34:51,762
And you're laying in this bed,
your spouse's next to you,

639
00:34:51,772 --> 00:34:56,952
like sweating profusely, you
might throw up, uh, but just.

640
00:34:57,532 --> 00:34:58,452
Yeah, tons.

641
00:34:58,452 --> 00:35:03,542
And I mean, you, you guide me, I
could tell you, you got me on where

642
00:35:03,542 --> 00:35:10,062
to go, but, um, a lot of, of, of
really, really, really powerful.

643
00:35:10,082 --> 00:35:10,892
Actually, I'll give you one.

644
00:35:10,942 --> 00:35:18,252
One of the powerful ones was I remember at
one point, um, uh, Shaking in a good way.

645
00:35:18,252 --> 00:35:20,712
It was very positive
for me for both of us.

646
00:35:20,752 --> 00:35:26,032
Um, there wasn't like a bad trip element
of it, but I'm shaking and I remember

647
00:35:26,032 --> 00:35:27,572
just being really, really sweaty.

648
00:35:27,902 --> 00:35:32,962
Uh, and I'm shaking and I'm shaking
and shaking and what felt like probably

649
00:35:33,002 --> 00:35:34,722
it probably was like 10 minutes.

650
00:35:35,357 --> 00:35:39,337
But it felt like two hours
and I just keep mouthing.

651
00:35:39,437 --> 00:35:41,797
I'm not saying it out loud,
but but I keep mouthing.

652
00:35:41,817 --> 00:35:43,137
I just want to be a good boy.

653
00:35:43,197 --> 00:35:44,477
I just want to be a good boy.

654
00:35:44,527 --> 00:35:45,757
I just want to be a good boy.

655
00:35:46,297 --> 00:35:50,487
And then that's what I'm just and
that like that basically distills.

656
00:35:50,907 --> 00:35:54,827
My psyche into, I just want to
be a good boy into six words.

657
00:35:55,167 --> 00:36:00,507
Um, and then this voice, which is maybe,
you know, the, the conscious, I'm always

658
00:36:00,507 --> 00:36:03,947
like wary when, like, I could see this
so clearly and people listening are like,

659
00:36:03,947 --> 00:36:05,337
what the fuck is this guy talking about?

660
00:36:05,337 --> 00:36:05,947
But whatever.

661
00:36:06,307 --> 00:36:12,157
Um, and this voice comes in over the top
conscious, this, the, the self, I don't

662
00:36:12,157 --> 00:36:16,477
even know how you refer to this other
voice, but not me while also being me.

663
00:36:16,797 --> 00:36:20,617
And it's like, Khe, what if
you don't have to be good?

664
00:36:20,977 --> 00:36:21,907
You just are good.

665
00:36:23,087 --> 00:36:28,237
And it's just like this little like re
shifting and like, it's like every so

666
00:36:28,237 --> 00:36:33,967
much of my life, so much of so many,
so many of my decisions, so much of

667
00:36:33,967 --> 00:36:38,177
my actions, so many of my thoughts
are all in service of wanting to.

668
00:36:38,227 --> 00:36:38,887
It's like an idea.

669
00:36:38,907 --> 00:36:41,287
I think the fact that it was
a good boy and not just like

670
00:36:41,307 --> 00:36:42,767
I want to be a good person.

671
00:36:43,427 --> 00:36:45,917
It just made it so clear to me.

672
00:36:45,917 --> 00:36:51,017
I have chills just thinking about it that
that in, you know, in this, you know, 44

673
00:36:51,017 --> 00:36:57,112
year old You know, aspiring surfer body
that there is, you know, this little kid

674
00:36:57,112 --> 00:36:59,272
that just wants people to think he's good.

675
00:36:59,362 --> 00:37:02,942
Um, and that he's a good
person, that he's a good boy.

676
00:37:02,972 --> 00:37:08,262
And it was one again, I think for, for
people who haven't had an experience

677
00:37:08,262 --> 00:37:11,802
like this, there's just a lot of
moments that you just can't unsee.

678
00:37:12,757 --> 00:37:13,047
Right.

679
00:37:13,047 --> 00:37:15,057
And I maybe I'll forget the details.

680
00:37:15,057 --> 00:37:18,947
They'll start to wax and wane as
time goes by from that experience,

681
00:37:19,267 --> 00:37:24,267
but I, I will never forget
that, that insight, so to speak.

682
00:37:24,977 --> 00:37:28,277
And so we had a bunch of them
on our own in that regards.

683
00:37:28,277 --> 00:37:30,577
She at least had a bunch on her on hers.

684
00:37:30,577 --> 00:37:35,647
And then we had some way, you know, some
of them met in the middle and they, they,

685
00:37:35,697 --> 00:37:37,967
they proved to be more joint insights.

686
00:37:39,273 --> 00:37:43,143
So in the beginning you said you were
sort of meant to not, uh, share and

687
00:37:43,143 --> 00:37:46,043
then over time I'm guessing you begin
to share more, you're talking more.

688
00:37:46,233 --> 00:37:50,113
Is there some kind of integration
session or time with the therapist

689
00:37:50,143 --> 00:37:53,473
afterward or like what did that
sort of integration look like?

690
00:37:54,043 --> 00:37:58,423
Yeah, there is an integration
kind of that evening, but

691
00:37:58,423 --> 00:38:00,113
you're still pretty out of it.

692
00:38:00,523 --> 00:38:03,683
Uh, and they're, they're more just
kind of focused, like you haven't

693
00:38:03,713 --> 00:38:06,043
eaten for, you know, 10 hours or so.

694
00:38:06,063 --> 00:38:09,603
I was, uh, the club kid in me was
just like sucking on lollipops.

695
00:38:10,053 --> 00:38:15,503
So I'm like, Hi, this is a familiar
feeling where anyone have a glow stick.

696
00:38:15,783 --> 00:38:23,543
Um, but, um, then there was, uh, I
think I like a two hour, a couple of

697
00:38:23,543 --> 00:38:25,793
hour integration the next morning.

698
00:38:26,263 --> 00:38:30,903
Um, where we just kind of shared,
I think everything's still so raw

699
00:38:30,983 --> 00:38:33,943
the next morning, um, in person.

700
00:38:33,973 --> 00:38:39,343
And then we went home and there
were individual, maybe like.

701
00:38:39,918 --> 00:38:47,138
Two or three in in zoom integration
sessions over over that that period,

702
00:38:47,798 --> 00:38:50,898
and I think for us it was I mean,
we did come home and my in laws

703
00:38:50,908 --> 00:38:54,348
were at the house watching our kids
were like, Oh, man, this is intense.

704
00:38:54,758 --> 00:38:58,868
Um, but, uh, we were we were able.

705
00:38:59,343 --> 00:39:02,543
I don't know if it was the result
of the program or the way they set

706
00:39:02,543 --> 00:39:07,053
it up or just the, an act of, you
know, the circumstances of, of the

707
00:39:07,053 --> 00:39:12,473
powers that be, but we were able to
really, um, talk about it, um, pretty,

708
00:39:12,513 --> 00:39:14,083
pretty, pretty, pretty regularly.

709
00:39:14,083 --> 00:39:17,193
We still reference it,
uh, that experience today.

710
00:39:17,353 --> 00:39:18,603
So somewhat regularly.

711
00:39:19,448 --> 00:39:20,228
Amazing.

712
00:39:20,398 --> 00:39:25,338
And I'm curious, I'm sure that sort
of thing permeates not just your

713
00:39:25,338 --> 00:39:28,288
relationship at home, but even kind
of how you're showing up at work.

714
00:39:28,288 --> 00:39:28,528
Right?

715
00:39:28,528 --> 00:39:33,018
So, um, I guess what are some of those
ways of being that you're taking forward?

716
00:39:33,018 --> 00:39:37,358
Is it that there's less striving because
you're like, I already am a good boy.

717
00:39:37,358 --> 00:39:38,018
I'm a good person.

718
00:39:38,018 --> 00:39:40,208
I don't need to strive so
hard for that acceptance.

719
00:39:40,208 --> 00:39:43,838
Like what's, I guess, still
present for you in that experience.

720
00:39:43,838 --> 00:39:44,488
Yeah.

721
00:39:44,948 --> 00:39:45,228
I think

722
00:39:45,228 --> 00:39:46,448
you talked about the money.

723
00:39:46,448 --> 00:39:46,463
Yeah.

724
00:39:46,683 --> 00:39:50,663
Money at one point two and the enoughness
of it and it's it's all kind of the

725
00:39:50,663 --> 00:39:53,033
enoughness of you kind of thing Yeah,

726
00:39:53,083 --> 00:39:59,523
yeah So I think that the one one way
that it has definitely come out is that

727
00:40:00,843 --> 00:40:10,843
I take criticism like very personally so
even if it's I don't really post things

728
00:40:10,843 --> 00:40:14,133
that are that controversial on Twitter,
but someone would be like, I might post

729
00:40:14,143 --> 00:40:18,713
something about money or some things,
something about millionaires and there

730
00:40:18,783 --> 00:40:22,263
and someone might be like, what about
all the people that can't eat, you know?

731
00:40:22,583 --> 00:40:26,288
Um, and I'll like actually take it
pretty personally, like Because again,

732
00:40:26,288 --> 00:40:30,488
I'll be like, you're attacking me as
someone who doesn't care about, you

733
00:40:30,488 --> 00:40:32,158
know, people living in poverty, right?

734
00:40:32,158 --> 00:40:35,068
Or you're calling me
an entitled rich fuck.

735
00:40:35,098 --> 00:40:38,698
Like, um, and that really hurts.

736
00:40:39,188 --> 00:40:44,788
And so I, I really like personal,
like, you know, The common thing

737
00:40:44,798 --> 00:40:48,778
about feedback, which is, um, you
know, you could get like 10 pieces

738
00:40:48,778 --> 00:40:50,278
of feedback, eight will be amazing.

739
00:40:50,278 --> 00:40:52,568
And one will be average
and one will be bad.

740
00:40:52,568 --> 00:40:55,338
And the only thing that you'll
think about is the one bad one.

741
00:40:56,058 --> 00:41:02,978
And so I think that now I can see that
a lot more clearly, um, when it's,

742
00:41:03,118 --> 00:41:05,878
as it's happening and I can just.

743
00:41:06,428 --> 00:41:12,178
I can kind of stop the chain of events
where it's like, Oh, person, you know,

744
00:41:12,778 --> 00:41:18,168
uh, uh, Twitter anonymous account, you
know, replies to one of your tweets with

745
00:41:18,208 --> 00:41:21,748
something calling you out and just be
like, no, you're, you're, it's okay.

746
00:41:21,768 --> 00:41:21,938
Okay.

747
00:41:21,938 --> 00:41:25,638
We, you know, we, we know where the path,
we know where the road leads to and, and,

748
00:41:25,688 --> 00:41:27,918
and, and you're, you know, we're good.

749
00:41:27,938 --> 00:41:28,538
We're good.

750
00:41:28,538 --> 00:41:31,008
Or we, we know, we know
where the path leads to.

751
00:41:31,008 --> 00:41:32,918
So, you know, I, Tara Brock has this.

752
00:41:33,153 --> 00:41:36,493
Thing of like the two wings
of I forget exact two wings,

753
00:41:36,493 --> 00:41:37,613
where one is self awareness.

754
00:41:37,623 --> 00:41:39,963
So you you see what's
happening in real time.

755
00:41:40,293 --> 00:41:44,013
And then the other is self compassion
is to not like beat yourself up for

756
00:41:44,013 --> 00:41:47,463
not behaving the way that you want
to be behaving in that instance.

757
00:41:47,883 --> 00:41:53,688
So that really Is is powerful,
and I'll share a funny story

758
00:41:53,688 --> 00:41:55,488
about that after I answer.

759
00:41:55,488 --> 00:41:59,308
The next thing is, you know, during
the retreat, I was actually very

760
00:41:59,708 --> 00:42:02,898
anytime I do some I've done a few
intensive coaching things that are

761
00:42:02,908 --> 00:42:06,828
about like my relationship to work,
and I always go into them thinking

762
00:42:06,828 --> 00:42:10,218
that I'm going to have this epiphany
that I don't want to do work anymore.

763
00:42:10,218 --> 00:42:14,128
I don't want to work on this thing,
and it's just I'll, like, blow it up.

764
00:42:14,628 --> 00:42:18,048
And, um, And so in this one, I
wondered, I'm like, What's this gonna

765
00:42:18,048 --> 00:42:22,808
say about This was in the midst of
a lot of the turmoil of the company.

766
00:42:23,308 --> 00:42:25,498
I was like, I wonder what it's
going to say about this all.

767
00:42:25,588 --> 00:42:29,975
And, um, it's funny because all of these,
I mean, the, I just want to be a good boy.

768
00:42:29,975 --> 00:42:32,275
There was probably like six
moments like that throughout

769
00:42:32,275 --> 00:42:33,925
the seven, eight hour period.

770
00:42:34,635 --> 00:42:36,045
And then every time, like my, like.

771
00:42:36,460 --> 00:42:39,030
My brain would be like, well,
what is it saying about work?

772
00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:40,990
Like, what is it saying about rad reads?

773
00:42:41,020 --> 00:42:45,710
And, and the minute I would say, like,
so it was, I was hallucinating, like,

774
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:50,570
in my head these, like, it was just,
like, imagine the most insane colors

775
00:42:50,570 --> 00:42:52,960
and just, like, visuals and so on.

776
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,870
And every time the thought about what
should I do about work or rad reads,

777
00:42:56,870 --> 00:43:00,940
it would just turn into a black and
white, uh, newspaper from, like, 1920.

778
00:43:02,350 --> 00:43:06,180
And it was just like, it would just,
it would suck all the color and

779
00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:08,450
the vividness out of the visual.

780
00:43:08,620 --> 00:43:09,550
And I'd be like, this sucks.

781
00:43:09,550 --> 00:43:12,770
Like go back to the, and
basically it was like, myself

782
00:43:12,770 --> 00:43:14,500
was like, don't, it's so trivial.

783
00:43:14,510 --> 00:43:14,740
Like.

784
00:43:15,060 --> 00:43:21,280
This is this is the terrain to play in
the little widgets about work and all

785
00:43:21,290 --> 00:43:25,470
that, like, it's just it's completely
that's what I took away from it is that

786
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:28,780
it's, um, it's completely insignificant.

787
00:43:28,780 --> 00:43:32,040
I want to come back to Ben's question
about enoughness, but it's just

788
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,590
a funny story about rejection.

789
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:36,287
I just read Noah Kagan's book.

790
00:43:36,353 --> 00:43:40,073
million dollar weekend, a
book on entrepreneurship, and

791
00:43:40,083 --> 00:43:41,503
he has one exercise in it.

792
00:43:41,523 --> 00:43:45,653
This goes back to the good
boy, and it's blown my mind.

793
00:43:45,813 --> 00:43:49,203
So the exercise basically to
practice rejection because one of the

794
00:43:49,203 --> 00:43:52,663
superpowers of being an entrepreneur
is actually not being afraid to ask.

795
00:43:52,868 --> 00:43:56,518
And sell them similar,
uh, there's similar veins.

796
00:43:56,798 --> 00:44:00,698
And so he has this exercise where
you go to a barista or any store

797
00:44:00,698 --> 00:44:02,258
and right as they're ringing you up.

798
00:44:02,258 --> 00:44:04,678
So it's like, Oh, that'll be, you know, 7.

799
00:44:05,268 --> 00:44:09,978
Uh, you just look at them dead faced and
you say, can I have a 10 percent discount?

800
00:44:10,638 --> 00:44:14,758
Uh, and then you're not allowed
to hedge and say, Oh, I read it in

801
00:44:14,758 --> 00:44:19,298
this book or this, and then you just
they'll probably have some reaction

802
00:44:19,758 --> 00:44:24,868
and then, uh, and you just have to
just sit with that reaction and then

803
00:44:24,868 --> 00:44:27,348
and then pay your bill and move on.

804
00:44:27,918 --> 00:44:28,828
And so.

805
00:44:29,178 --> 00:44:33,078
I got, I talked to no one on my
podcast and he, and I was like, I

806
00:44:33,088 --> 00:44:34,578
want to do it, but I'm kind of scared.

807
00:44:34,578 --> 00:44:35,888
This feels so awkward.

808
00:44:36,198 --> 00:44:37,148
All these stories.

809
00:44:37,148 --> 00:44:40,698
And, and, and right on the podcast, he's
like, remind me to check in with Kay.

810
00:44:40,888 --> 00:44:43,558
Siri reminded me to check in with Khe in
a week to see if he did the challenge.

811
00:44:44,028 --> 00:44:45,668
I'm like, fuck, I guess I'm doing it.

812
00:44:45,688 --> 00:44:51,893
Um, And so I did it and at the
local grocery store and it was at my

813
00:44:51,893 --> 00:44:55,463
heart, like my palms were sweating
when I decided I was going to do it.

814
00:44:55,873 --> 00:44:59,213
I go up there is a guy that
I'm going to see again, uh, and

815
00:44:59,213 --> 00:45:00,343
I'm just like, I got to do it.

816
00:45:00,343 --> 00:45:01,023
I got to do it.

817
00:45:01,083 --> 00:45:05,953
Uh, and I, and I say it and the guy
just kind of like, no, and I just

818
00:45:06,653 --> 00:45:09,643
looked at him and then it's like, okay.

819
00:45:09,938 --> 00:45:14,538
And then just paid my thing and then
I walked out and just the the the

820
00:45:14,548 --> 00:45:19,388
wave of emotions that like leading
up to it while it's happening and

821
00:45:19,388 --> 00:45:25,768
then after it was just it was so
instructive and it does go back to that.

822
00:45:25,768 --> 00:45:26,228
Good boy.

823
00:45:26,268 --> 00:45:28,268
Because I knew I was equipped.

824
00:45:28,268 --> 00:45:30,313
I'm like, if he laughs at me, which I I.

825
00:45:30,463 --> 00:45:31,173
Thought he would.

826
00:45:31,453 --> 00:45:35,563
It's not gonna challenge like
who I am, you know, ethically my

827
00:45:35,563 --> 00:45:37,673
integrity, but it will feel like it.

828
00:45:37,723 --> 00:45:41,153
It's gonna feel like it like you're
a shithead if you for asking.

829
00:45:41,603 --> 00:45:46,613
Um, and so I did it and it and and
then I was like, Oh my God, that like

830
00:45:46,613 --> 00:45:48,763
what an intense range of emotions.

831
00:45:48,763 --> 00:45:50,543
And I basically gave myself the challenge.

832
00:45:50,543 --> 00:45:53,173
I'm going to do it 10 more
times, nine more times.

833
00:45:53,593 --> 00:45:55,423
And, uh, and it's all right.

834
00:45:55,453 --> 00:46:00,128
The second time was infinitely easier
and then it already trickled into my

835
00:46:00,128 --> 00:46:05,758
business because now when I, I'm just
more aggressive at selling, which

836
00:46:05,768 --> 00:46:10,398
me being more aggressive at selling
is basically like, uh, moving my

837
00:46:10,398 --> 00:46:13,598
level of passivity towards neutral.

838
00:46:14,238 --> 00:46:20,068
Which is the way a normal person would
sell, not like scummy car salesperson.

839
00:46:20,468 --> 00:46:24,908
Um, and so, and again, and this
also ties with what Joe Hudson and

840
00:46:24,918 --> 00:46:29,518
Johnny Miller and others talk about
is just like watching that range.

841
00:46:29,528 --> 00:46:29,908
It's like.

842
00:46:30,768 --> 00:46:35,608
Hardcore physical sensations as
the whole process is happening that

843
00:46:35,608 --> 00:46:40,678
like there's no rational like it's
the the physical sensations trump

844
00:46:41,018 --> 00:46:42,868
the rational thoughts that you're

845
00:46:42,878 --> 00:46:44,618
having all body, right?

846
00:46:44,748 --> 00:46:45,378
It's all yeah.

847
00:46:46,538 --> 00:46:47,278
And then it's gone.

848
00:46:49,428 --> 00:46:50,838
One of the, uh, the

849
00:46:50,848 --> 00:46:55,588
first weeks of the decision course was
around figuring out what you're, what

850
00:46:55,588 --> 00:46:59,028
you're afraid of, basically, and then
what, what you're avoiding when you,

851
00:46:59,038 --> 00:47:01,168
when you resist having that emotion.

852
00:47:01,168 --> 00:47:04,048
And one of mine was
definitely, was rejection.

853
00:47:04,638 --> 00:47:05,258
And.

854
00:47:05,498 --> 00:47:09,368
I'm in this position right now where I
want to free up more of my time so that

855
00:47:09,368 --> 00:47:13,338
Marie and I can work on something that,
you know, is really meaningful to us.

856
00:47:13,908 --> 00:47:19,188
And so that meant actually like I had
this pipeline of, of consulting leads

857
00:47:19,228 --> 00:47:22,588
that it was probably about four or
five people that I'm like, yeah, I've

858
00:47:22,588 --> 00:47:25,728
said yes to these people that I'm going
to help them with their businesses.

859
00:47:26,068 --> 00:47:30,778
And so my, my exercise for the week was I
have to write four emails that say, Hey,

860
00:47:30,778 --> 00:47:34,993
I know I said I was going to work with
you, but, uh, I'm gonna have to step away

861
00:47:34,993 --> 00:47:39,113
because I'm just I'm not feeling like I
would do a great job Right now and I and

862
00:47:39,113 --> 00:47:42,183
I have this thing that I really want to
focus on and it's not gonna I'm not gonna

863
00:47:42,183 --> 00:47:48,553
be able to put as much time as I want into
it and like I've, I'd put those emails in

864
00:47:48,553 --> 00:47:52,773
draft and like sat with them for a week
and they were just taunting me to send

865
00:47:52,773 --> 00:47:57,483
them like it was so difficult having to
feel, Oh, this person's going to be upset.

866
00:47:57,513 --> 00:48:00,243
I told them I would do
this and da da da da.

867
00:48:00,243 --> 00:48:03,638
Every single email I got back was
like, Thank you for your honesty.

868
00:48:04,258 --> 00:48:08,348
Uh, the call that the call that we had
just to talk about my project was so

869
00:48:08,348 --> 00:48:12,848
helpful I was able to move forwards in
XYZ pattern and and it was great One

870
00:48:12,848 --> 00:48:16,908
person was like really appreciate you
telling me that you're not you don't have

871
00:48:16,908 --> 00:48:20,568
the capacity and that you don't you know
You're not gonna show up fully for this

872
00:48:20,978 --> 00:48:25,028
so every single person was just showed
appreciation for me telling them no and

873
00:48:25,038 --> 00:48:29,858
you know that like I just and it made me
feel really good like oh my wow I got what

874
00:48:29,858 --> 00:48:32,418
I wanted and like nobody's upset with me.

875
00:48:32,418 --> 00:48:36,028
Nobody rejected me Nobody thought
I was flaky or anything of the sort

876
00:48:36,028 --> 00:48:40,108
and so I could see how doing that in
those little micro Transactions would

877
00:48:40,118 --> 00:48:42,458
be really really helpful to practice

878
00:48:42,468 --> 00:48:44,428
that Yeah.

879
00:48:44,428 --> 00:48:45,768
Well, kudos to you for doing that.

880
00:48:45,768 --> 00:48:50,488
Cause that, that is, I, I've been,
you know, anyone who's listening, who

881
00:48:50,498 --> 00:48:54,908
fears rejection and who is, has people
pleasing tendencies can relate to that.

882
00:48:54,918 --> 00:48:57,188
So, um, yeah.

883
00:48:57,188 --> 00:49:01,648
And I think it also starts
to show, I think like we have

884
00:49:01,648 --> 00:49:02,588
these stories in our head.

885
00:49:02,588 --> 00:49:04,238
Cause you're, you thought that
people would be like, you're,

886
00:49:04,418 --> 00:49:08,558
you're a brute, you're a jerk,
you're, you're so flaky and this.

887
00:49:08,868 --> 00:49:12,158
And I think we're so
wired to the downside.

888
00:49:12,508 --> 00:49:14,028
Of like, what can go wrong?

889
00:49:14,428 --> 00:49:17,028
We never ask what can go right.

890
00:49:18,338 --> 00:49:18,648
Right.

891
00:49:18,688 --> 00:49:21,378
And I don't think, and I think,
look, things will go wrong.

892
00:49:21,378 --> 00:49:24,038
I think ultimately, and there's
a much longer conversation is

893
00:49:24,048 --> 00:49:25,628
like, they're all just stories.

894
00:49:26,088 --> 00:49:30,758
Um, but, but let's put that, let's put
that for, you know, episode, you know,

895
00:49:30,768 --> 00:49:32,928
version, version take two of this podcast.

896
00:49:33,198 --> 00:49:38,008
Um, you know, I do think, uh, you
know, when I work with, um, a lot

897
00:49:38,008 --> 00:49:40,458
of the coaching clients I work
at, like, they're so focused on

898
00:49:40,608 --> 00:49:42,148
about like, what can go wrong.

899
00:49:42,853 --> 00:49:45,063
That they forget to ask what can go right.

900
00:49:46,653 --> 00:49:47,593
And so when you're only focusing

901
00:49:47,593 --> 00:49:51,773
on that, I think even some of the
positive emotions like sometimes I

902
00:49:51,773 --> 00:49:56,493
think we actually do things to avoid
Positive emotions because like joy

903
00:49:56,503 --> 00:49:58,123
is actually threatening in a way.

904
00:49:58,123 --> 00:50:01,823
You're like, Oh, well, like,
uh, the shoe's gonna drop.

905
00:50:01,823 --> 00:50:03,103
Like, can't be too good.

906
00:50:03,103 --> 00:50:04,073
Like, things are too good.

907
00:50:04,073 --> 00:50:04,693
It's probably good.

908
00:50:04,913 --> 00:50:06,363
So I think sometimes we even do that.

909
00:50:06,363 --> 00:50:09,173
We don't even realize the ways
we're avoiding the good stuff.

910
00:50:09,223 --> 00:50:10,333
Oh, I'm sure.

911
00:50:10,343 --> 00:50:11,513
Yes, I'm sure.

912
00:50:11,763 --> 00:50:11,883
Yeah.

913
00:50:11,883 --> 00:50:13,083
Thanks for pointing that out.

914
00:50:13,203 --> 00:50:14,523
I definitely do that.

915
00:50:14,963 --> 00:50:16,863
It's like this can't be this can't last.

916
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:18,650
Yeah, I think we're all kind of guilt.

917
00:50:18,650 --> 00:50:21,560
Classic over overthinkers
overachievers, right?

918
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,300
We get we get caught in that for sure.

919
00:50:24,210 --> 00:50:24,310
I

920
00:50:24,310 --> 00:50:26,090
have a, I have a random
question for you, Khe.

921
00:50:26,090 --> 00:50:29,500
Like I've been thinking about this cause
as I've been watching the second season

922
00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:31,670
of this anime called one punch man.

923
00:50:32,190 --> 00:50:35,100
And, uh, I don't know if you've
ever seen it before, but the main

924
00:50:35,100 --> 00:50:38,260
character, the main character is
basically this dude who trained

925
00:50:38,260 --> 00:50:40,290
for three, four years and becomes.

926
00:50:40,455 --> 00:50:45,925
And basically invulnerable and like his
whole, his whole deal is that he can

927
00:50:45,965 --> 00:50:48,625
beat anybody by just with one punch.

928
00:50:49,135 --> 00:50:52,805
Um, and so I've been like thinking of
him as like the patron saint of like

929
00:50:52,825 --> 00:50:56,955
the post achievement professionals
because he's so frustrated by just

930
00:50:56,975 --> 00:51:01,335
having no meaning in his life because
nothing is challenging him anymore.

931
00:51:01,355 --> 00:51:04,775
And so, but everybody around him,
all the other heroes are like super

932
00:51:04,775 --> 00:51:06,925
envious of his, of his success.

933
00:51:07,485 --> 00:51:07,925
Uh.

934
00:51:08,270 --> 00:51:12,220
But like he's, he doesn't actually feel
successful himself because all of these,

935
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:15,580
you know, because he doesn't have the
challenge or the enjoyment in his life.

936
00:51:15,580 --> 00:51:20,480
So his whole life is like just these very
basic problems like when, uh, when is the

937
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,600
grocery, when, when are the coupons going,
you know, at the market or whatever.

938
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,450
And so he's like really obsessive,
you know, obsessively seeking meaning

939
00:51:28,990 --> 00:51:34,100
outside of what everybody else
thinks is the, uh, is the thing.

940
00:51:34,180 --> 00:51:37,090
Um, so I'm wondering if you have
any other, other like, kind of like.

941
00:51:38,365 --> 00:51:44,115
Indicate like like the heroic journey
or like references in in literature

942
00:51:44,115 --> 00:51:48,495
or something that like, you know You
have these kind of like heroes who like

943
00:51:48,515 --> 00:51:53,025
they they've lost a kind of sense of
purpose because they've achieved so much

944
00:51:53,985 --> 00:51:57,910
I'd have to think of the heroes
Um, but, but as you were saying,

945
00:51:57,910 --> 00:52:03,120
something else came up that, that was
very salient was, you know, there is

946
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,670
someone asked me, you know, I made
this video about like, what, you know,

947
00:52:06,670 --> 00:52:07,950
what is the day in the life of Khe?

948
00:52:07,950 --> 00:52:09,430
It's like, it's so chill.

949
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:13,390
It's like you wake up, you meditate,
you serve, you write a bed, you

950
00:52:13,390 --> 00:52:14,910
like make lunch for your girls.

951
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:16,770
You know, it's like so chill.

952
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,800
And, and someone asked the
question, do you wish there

953
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,630
was more struggle in your life?

954
00:52:24,697 --> 00:52:26,237
It was actually an interesting, yeah.

955
00:52:27,967 --> 00:52:32,907
Because, you know, I do, I don't
have struggles in the sense of

956
00:52:32,907 --> 00:52:35,827
like an asshole boss or financial
struggles or things like that.

957
00:52:35,827 --> 00:52:41,077
I have creative struggles, but I was so
I've been, I was thinking about that.

958
00:52:41,077 --> 00:52:42,477
I didn't know how to.

959
00:52:42,537 --> 00:52:46,117
I answer that whether that was a
good or bad, do I miss it or not?

960
00:52:46,667 --> 00:52:51,927
And then I had a friend, um, and he
started a Bitcoin hedge fund and he

961
00:52:51,927 --> 00:52:57,577
raised money and like, he got hacked
by some like sovereign, like terrorist

962
00:52:57,577 --> 00:53:01,877
sponsored group and had to go to
these like really marquee investors,

963
00:53:02,027 --> 00:53:03,787
like explaining that he got hacked.

964
00:53:04,147 --> 00:53:05,877
And then once he recovered from the hack.

965
00:53:06,122 --> 00:53:09,412
He got, um, he had money with, uh, FTX.

966
00:53:09,412 --> 00:53:12,732
And so there was a giant hole and
like there were more losses and

967
00:53:12,732 --> 00:53:16,872
basically it wasn't a failure,
but it just, it didn't do well.

968
00:53:17,122 --> 00:53:20,432
And again, it had this like,
who's, who's of investors.

969
00:53:20,742 --> 00:53:24,472
So he had to constantly go and
explain himself and explain himself.

970
00:53:24,852 --> 00:53:29,342
And he said, you know, he was like,
Hey, for, for two, for two years.

971
00:53:29,832 --> 00:53:36,742
It felt like my rep, my entire reputation
was like on the edge of a cliff where,

972
00:53:36,782 --> 00:53:41,282
you know, these people who had trusted
me and all that, um, could, you

973
00:53:41,282 --> 00:53:46,342
know, instantly like destroy me, so
to speak, all right, reputationally.

974
00:53:46,952 --> 00:53:50,052
And, and he said something like.

975
00:53:50,757 --> 00:53:59,557
It was hell, but it also made me so
much stronger and like so resilient

976
00:53:59,567 --> 00:54:04,827
to Any other future challenge and it
kind of got me wondering it's like wow.

977
00:54:04,827 --> 00:54:10,732
I don't have In my daily life, like
there's very little stakes, there's

978
00:54:10,732 --> 00:54:16,432
very little at stake, so to speak,
like, and I think I tend to think that

979
00:54:16,442 --> 00:54:21,162
mostly that's a good thing because
I don't want to be staring down

980
00:54:21,162 --> 00:54:24,722
precipices of things, but I do wonder.

981
00:54:24,722 --> 00:54:28,832
It's like I do want to have
stakes in something right?

982
00:54:28,872 --> 00:54:33,447
And even, you know, I've written
a blog post every week for 250

983
00:54:33,447 --> 00:54:35,667
weeks, there's no stakes there.

984
00:54:35,687 --> 00:54:40,227
Like at this point, if it sucks, like
no one, like no one even reads them.

985
00:54:40,237 --> 00:54:43,427
So like, if it sucks, um,
like it doesn't matter.

986
00:54:43,427 --> 00:54:43,657
Right.

987
00:54:43,867 --> 00:54:46,437
Same thing with like
launching a podcast, it fails.

988
00:54:46,447 --> 00:54:48,197
It doesn't like, there's no stakes there.

989
00:54:48,207 --> 00:54:52,567
So I have wondered, like,
do I miss having stakes?

990
00:54:53,042 --> 00:54:53,732
In my life?

991
00:54:53,812 --> 00:54:55,372
That sounds like, like meat steaks.

992
00:54:55,412 --> 00:54:55,818
I think

993
00:54:55,818 --> 00:55:00,032
that's really interesting, K,
because what has low stakes for you

994
00:55:00,032 --> 00:55:03,182
feels like it might actually feel
really high stakes for someone else.

995
00:55:03,182 --> 00:55:07,302
Like, the idea of the, of launching a
podcast, like, you know, right before

996
00:55:07,302 --> 00:55:08,692
we hopped on, we're like, Oh, whatever.

997
00:55:08,692 --> 00:55:09,622
This is a creative project.

998
00:55:09,622 --> 00:55:10,552
Let's see where it goes.

999
00:55:10,782 --> 00:55:13,002
But for other people, they're
overthinking the logo.

1000
00:55:13,002 --> 00:55:14,712
They're overthinking the metrics.

1001
00:55:14,712 --> 00:55:18,052
They're already like 10 steps
ahead and the stakes feel so high.

1002
00:55:18,072 --> 00:55:22,152
So I partly wonder if it's like, You've
had some stakes, you've had those seven

1003
00:55:22,152 --> 00:55:26,022
year reinventions, reinventions, tossing
everything to the side, you know,

1004
00:55:26,152 --> 00:55:30,272
collapsing identities, maybe in a way
you've just changed your relationship with

1005
00:55:30,272 --> 00:55:30,832
stakes.

1006
00:55:31,022 --> 00:55:33,252
Yeah, I've become a vegan.

1007
00:55:33,742 --> 00:55:34,232
Um,

1008
00:55:37,252 --> 00:55:41,342
I think it's, yeah, I thank
you for saying I, because it

1009
00:55:41,342 --> 00:55:43,892
doesn't, I, I'm deeply invested.

1010
00:55:43,902 --> 00:55:47,782
So if I'm deeply invested in
things, it means that I care.

1011
00:55:48,142 --> 00:55:50,342
Which means that there must be stakes.

1012
00:55:50,732 --> 00:55:55,682
It's just that the what's it's I think
an interesting thing is like I'm not.

1013
00:55:56,442 --> 00:56:00,122
As like you said, like people
want to start this and that I'm

1014
00:56:00,122 --> 00:56:05,598
not as scared of what goes wrong
as a result of those stakes.

1015
00:56:05,608 --> 00:56:06,728
So I still have stakes.

1016
00:56:06,758 --> 00:56:12,298
I'm just the downside is not scary to
me, and it's definitely not debilitating.

1017
00:56:13,333 --> 00:56:13,583
Yeah.

1018
00:56:13,583 --> 00:56:16,503
And, and the person asking, like,
do you wish you had more struggle?

1019
00:56:16,503 --> 00:56:18,043
It's not like there aren't struggles.

1020
00:56:18,043 --> 00:56:21,053
Like for example, um, you know,
your wife's father passing

1021
00:56:21,053 --> 00:56:22,493
away, parents getting older.

1022
00:56:22,653 --> 00:56:25,373
Like there are struggles that
we all have that we sort of

1023
00:56:25,373 --> 00:56:26,883
have to face no matter what.

1024
00:56:26,883 --> 00:56:29,993
So it's, it's not like your life
is completely struggle free, but it

1025
00:56:30,143 --> 00:56:33,003
just feels like you have a healthy
relationship with like, yeah, that's

1026
00:56:33,003 --> 00:56:34,213
the next challenge in front of me.

1027
00:56:34,213 --> 00:56:37,573
And I'm going to face that regardless
of whatever uncomfortable feelings

1028
00:56:37,573 --> 00:56:39,413
are coming up as a result of that.

1029
00:56:39,740 --> 00:56:40,820
That's a good spin.

1030
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:41,490
I like it.

1031
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:44,780
And I don't even think it's spin,
like, I think it's just like, you

1032
00:56:44,780 --> 00:56:46,010
have a healthy relationship with

1033
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:46,470
it now.

1034
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,040
I agree.

1035
00:56:48,260 --> 00:56:49,580
Maybe that's like the thing of joy.

1036
00:56:49,590 --> 00:56:52,420
It's like, actually, like you said
something nice to me and I have

1037
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,080
trouble, uh, like actually hearing it.

1038
00:56:55,110 --> 00:56:55,340
Right.

1039
00:56:55,340 --> 00:56:57,770
I almost have to deflect it
with a joke or something.

1040
00:56:58,100 --> 00:56:58,550
Yeah.

1041
00:56:59,210 --> 00:57:00,030
Well, so thank you.

1042
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:00,880
It does it.

1043
00:57:01,110 --> 00:57:01,900
Thank you.

1044
00:57:01,940 --> 00:57:02,690
Uh, it does.

1045
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:05,970
It is nice to be seen that way.

1046
00:57:06,020 --> 00:57:07,700
And, uh, I appreciate you saying that.

1047
00:57:08,490 --> 00:57:10,720
It's like the post struggle professional.

1048
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:14,610
Welcome to post achievement.

1049
00:57:14,610 --> 00:57:14,950
Yeah.

1050
00:57:14,970 --> 00:57:17,550
Embracing, embracing whatever
challenges come your way.

1051
00:57:18,170 --> 00:57:18,890
Yeah.

1052
00:57:19,810 --> 00:57:20,400
Amazing.

1053
00:57:21,385 --> 00:57:23,785
I think that's a great note to wrap up on.

1054
00:57:23,785 --> 00:57:27,525
I mean, Khe, I have no doubt we'll
be having part two, part three

1055
00:57:27,675 --> 00:57:30,985
conversations with you because there's
lots of just like fun overlap in our

1056
00:57:30,985 --> 00:57:33,275
work and our adventures and whatnot.

1057
00:57:33,275 --> 00:57:38,375
So I just really appreciate you as a
human in our network and on the internet.

1058
00:57:39,055 --> 00:57:39,745
Yes.

1059
00:57:39,775 --> 00:57:40,615
Well, thank you all.

1060
00:57:40,625 --> 00:57:46,025
Thank you for, for, for those,
everyone who listened and yeah, I'm,

1061
00:57:46,055 --> 00:57:51,435
I'm, I, maybe this will be my plug
for, for the internet and Twitter.

1062
00:57:51,435 --> 00:57:52,935
I mean, you two met on Twitter.

1063
00:57:53,385 --> 00:57:57,345
And so for all the people that,
that hate on Twitter, it's like,

1064
00:57:57,700 --> 00:58:02,240
We have a friendship, a business
mastermind, and a marriage, uh,

1065
00:58:02,270 --> 00:58:04,340
that all are the result of Twitter.

1066
00:58:04,460 --> 00:58:07,850
So Twitter, Twitter, I'm
grateful for, for you both.

1067
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,620
I'm grateful that we hang out in these
social, in these digital ecosystems

1068
00:58:12,630 --> 00:58:18,400
where This is, not only is it normal,
not only is it possible, it's normal.

1069
00:58:18,860 --> 00:58:23,130
And, um, and then we got to add
the cherry on top, which is, uh,

1070
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,470
meeting once, uh, you know, at a
minimum once a year in person now.

1071
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:26,910
So,

1072
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:27,440
yeah.

1073
00:58:27,940 --> 00:58:28,170
Yeah.

1074
00:58:28,910 --> 00:58:29,310
Amazing.

1075
00:58:29,310 --> 00:58:29,990
Thank you so much.

1076
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:30,180
Okay.

1077
00:58:30,180 --> 00:58:32,830
Where's the, where's the best place
for people to engage with your

1078
00:58:32,830 --> 00:58:35,240
work, um, other than Twitter, I

1079
00:58:35,250 --> 00:58:35,710
guess.

1080
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:36,580
Yes.

1081
00:58:36,810 --> 00:58:37,570
So thanks.

1082
00:58:37,590 --> 00:58:38,360
Thanks for that.

1083
00:58:38,380 --> 00:58:40,140
Uh, radreads.

1084
00:58:40,140 --> 00:58:44,852
co and sign up for our email list cause
that's where you'll get, uh, get it.

1085
00:58:44,852 --> 00:58:44,953
Okay.

1086
00:58:44,953 --> 00:58:45,055
Thanks.

1087
00:58:45,415 --> 00:58:46,475
Keep up to date with everything.

1088
00:58:46,475 --> 00:58:50,745
See all the essays, um, podcasts, the
examine life podcast, wherever you get

1089
00:58:50,745 --> 00:58:54,165
your podcasts, um, most active on Twitter.

1090
00:58:54,595 --> 00:59:00,155
And then if you just Google K H E H Y,
you'll see LinkedIn, um, YouTube, we're

1091
00:59:00,155 --> 00:59:06,145
actually doing a decent amount on, um,
uh, LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.

1092
00:59:06,165 --> 00:59:08,205
Sad presences on Instagram and TikTok.

1093
00:59:10,005 --> 00:59:11,455
Can't be everywhere all at once, right?

1094
00:59:13,015 --> 00:59:14,005
Exactly.

1095
00:59:14,830 --> 00:59:15,280
Amazing.

1096
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,070
Thanks so much, Kay, for joining us today.

1097
00:59:17,090 --> 00:59:17,920
We appreciate it.

1098
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:18,680
Thank you.