WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.170 --> 00:00:05.370 Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:09.720 I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:13.590 from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:18.840 Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.700 strategies that make an impact. 00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:21.750 Let's get started. 00:00:23.391 --> 00:00:26.571 Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical Show Where Chemical Means Business. 00:00:27.261 --> 00:00:31.761 Today we are continuing on our theme of sustainability and innovation. 00:00:32.151 --> 00:00:33.291 Green and bio. 00:00:33.381 --> 00:00:37.101 As we continue throughout the, the month of April and today I 00:00:37.101 --> 00:00:39.801 am really excited to welcome Dr. 00:00:39.801 --> 00:00:45.141 Charlie Landis, who just literally just retired as the Chief Technology 00:00:45.141 --> 00:00:47.031 Officer of Integrity Biochem. 00:00:47.751 --> 00:00:52.221 Charlie has a wealth of experience in the industry, 35 years in 00:00:52.221 --> 00:00:56.791 energy and chemicals, including at Halliburton, before joining and. 00:00:57.106 --> 00:01:01.217 Starting really being part of the startup team for Integrity, biochem, developing 00:01:01.217 --> 00:01:05.297 the first generation technology and the second generation and commercializing it. 00:01:05.297 --> 00:01:12.167 And as we know, this whole journey towards sustainability and innovation is not easy. 00:01:12.447 --> 00:01:14.697 Charlie's gonna share some of those insights, some of the 00:01:14.817 --> 00:01:18.507 biggest questions and decisions that he and the team have to make. 00:01:18.507 --> 00:01:22.667 And that may be, great advice for you guys that are listening and more so. 00:01:22.787 --> 00:01:24.437 Charlie, welcome to the Chemical Show. 00:01:24.720 --> 00:01:25.785 Charlie: Uh, thank you Victoria. 00:01:25.785 --> 00:01:27.945 Thank you for your interest in IBC as well. 00:01:28.142 --> 00:01:29.012 Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. 00:01:29.012 --> 00:01:30.782 So excited to have you here today. 00:01:31.202 --> 00:01:32.942 Let's just start talking about you. 00:01:32.972 --> 00:01:34.442 What is your origin story? 00:01:34.442 --> 00:01:39.512 How did you get interested in this space of geochemistry? 00:01:39.612 --> 00:01:40.572 And more, right? 00:01:40.572 --> 00:01:42.342 I mean, you've been in doing this for a long time. 00:01:42.810 --> 00:01:46.740 Charlie: Yeah, geochemistry in itself was a new field in the last 00:01:46.740 --> 00:01:54.000 century, and uh, studied, uncommon mineral and realized quickly that 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:55.650 it had to interact with water. 00:01:56.820 --> 00:02:00.780 that became an entire field called aqueous geochemistry in the 00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:04.080 late eighties and nineties that exploded into the geosciences. 00:02:04.710 --> 00:02:09.040 And it just interested me that the traditional geologic studies could be 00:02:09.040 --> 00:02:13.990 expanded toward dynamic applications in real time at the surface where 00:02:14.020 --> 00:02:17.320 the, you know, the civilization interacts with the natural materials. 00:02:17.710 --> 00:02:20.260 And it just fascinated me from the day I, you know, I took 00:02:20.260 --> 00:02:21.850 my first pest in the class. 00:02:22.255 --> 00:02:25.435 I was able to pass the test, which also helps with the motivation, but 00:02:25.435 --> 00:02:30.295 it was career driven by a passion of trying to understand that, trying to 00:02:30.302 --> 00:02:30.892 Victoria: Yeah. 00:02:30.925 --> 00:02:35.935 Charlie: how these seemingly inert things react with something as dynamic as water. 00:02:36.562 --> 00:02:37.552 Victoria: Love it, love it, love it. 00:02:37.662 --> 00:02:40.967 Okay, so, so geochemistry, I mean, how did you even. 00:02:41.792 --> 00:02:44.252 Think about getting into this field. 00:02:44.252 --> 00:02:47.102 Is it, is it really that you were interested in geology and rocks? 00:02:47.102 --> 00:02:48.422 I mean, like, I don't know. 00:02:48.422 --> 00:02:52.382 I've yet to figure out how somebody does it, and yet obviously we need geologists. 00:02:52.382 --> 00:02:56.462 We need people that understand rocks and water and all this, this formation. 00:02:56.683 --> 00:02:59.703 Charlie: Well, I, I'll give you the solidifying story. 00:02:59.703 --> 00:03:05.943 I was, it was in the mid 1980s and I was watching, uh, American media, 00:03:05.973 --> 00:03:09.363 and they announced when President Reagan announced his plans for 00:03:09.363 --> 00:03:11.043 the Star Wars Defense Initiative. 00:03:11.763 --> 00:03:16.383 And I sat there as a graduate student trying to understand how we could use 00:03:16.383 --> 00:03:19.983 laser technology characterize rocks. 00:03:20.343 --> 00:03:20.853 That's what a 00:03:20.920 --> 00:03:21.000 Victoria: Hmm. 00:03:21.363 --> 00:03:22.683 Charlie: is supposed to do, is think of these. 00:03:23.058 --> 00:03:27.821 Seemingly disparate ideas and try to make value of them, and I drafted a 00:03:27.821 --> 00:03:32.951 proposal for my advisor and he turned that into a multimillion dollar, four 00:03:32.951 --> 00:03:38.411 year dissertation project that utilized some of the that were common at the time 00:03:38.411 --> 00:03:42.371 for the first time, to understanding how the organic and inorganic 00:03:42.371 --> 00:03:44.231 chemistry of the rock changes when you. 00:03:45.026 --> 00:03:47.636 Have a laser impinge upon that rock. 00:03:48.458 --> 00:03:48.678 Victoria: Huh. 00:03:48.806 --> 00:03:51.896 Charlie: incredibly nerdy, and I'm sorry if it does, but those 00:03:51.896 --> 00:03:55.526 are the types of things that fascinate a scientifically cur mind. 00:03:55.526 --> 00:03:56.906 And at the time I certainly had that. 00:03:56.996 --> 00:03:57.296 So 00:03:57.338 --> 00:03:58.688 Victoria: Yeah, I love that. 00:03:58.826 --> 00:04:01.556 Charlie: I could tell you I, I, they didn't make a movie called 00:04:01.556 --> 00:04:04.436 Inception about that moment, but that I wish I could have a movie 00:04:04.436 --> 00:04:06.116 that explained how I felt that night. 00:04:06.116 --> 00:04:06.206 I. 00:04:07.358 --> 00:04:07.718 Victoria: Yeah. 00:04:07.868 --> 00:04:09.998 You know, I think it's actually fascinating 'cause we all get 00:04:09.998 --> 00:04:11.888 sparked by something, right? 00:04:11.888 --> 00:04:16.628 And I do think this idea of kind of two ideas mashing together, that's where some 00:04:16.628 --> 00:04:18.098 of the greatest innovations come from. 00:04:18.133 --> 00:04:22.213 So you studied this and then you went off and you worked for Halliburton. 00:04:22.453 --> 00:04:23.053 Is that, did you. 00:04:23.251 --> 00:04:25.206 Charlie: no, I, I should give you my whole, whole 00:04:25.353 --> 00:04:25.643 Victoria: Yeah. 00:04:25.646 --> 00:04:27.721 Charlie: I, I have three degrees in the geosciences. 00:04:27.721 --> 00:04:27.991 I have a 00:04:28.073 --> 00:04:28.363 Victoria: Okay. 00:04:28.501 --> 00:04:32.671 Charlie: from Texas Tech I, my first job was with an oil exploration company 00:04:32.671 --> 00:04:36.511 called Orco Oil and Gas and their research facility, and I was there 00:04:36.511 --> 00:04:40.591 for five years studying the same rocks that are currently being exploited. 00:04:41.086 --> 00:04:43.696 Around the United States for unconventional oil and gas. 00:04:44.446 --> 00:04:49.126 then I was approached to take a job with a minerals company in Chicago looking 00:04:49.126 --> 00:04:51.076 at bentonite deposits around the world. 00:04:51.189 --> 00:04:55.479 When I then, uh, shortly thereafter, took a job in Australia trying to use 00:04:55.479 --> 00:05:00.181 that expertise to take that material and turn it into a water treatment chemical. 00:05:00.436 --> 00:05:01.096 And when 00:05:01.198 --> 00:05:01.603 Victoria: Got it. 00:05:01.726 --> 00:05:05.176 Charlie: ha occurred, my parents wanted me to come home and I landed 00:05:05.176 --> 00:05:09.086 at Halliburton and I was there for 14 years, gratefully working in their 00:05:09.086 --> 00:05:13.046 laboratory, understanding how drilling fluids interact down hole primarily 00:05:13.046 --> 00:05:18.932 in the non oil field applications, but those properties and realizing the 00:05:18.932 --> 00:05:23.802 value of taking a natural material and turning into an efficient used for. 00:05:24.687 --> 00:05:28.167 Economic benefit in drilling, whether it was improved or recovery, more 00:05:28.167 --> 00:05:30.177 water production from a water well. 00:05:30.447 --> 00:05:34.587 Higher geothermal properties when you had shallow geothermal heat loops, what 00:05:34.587 --> 00:05:37.527 whatever the range of opportunities were, they just basically asked us to 00:05:37.527 --> 00:05:39.597 design a fluid to solve that problem. 00:05:39.849 --> 00:05:40.299 Victoria: Yeah, 00:05:40.309 --> 00:05:43.489 And then you went, how'd you get to Integrity Biochem? 00:05:43.744 --> 00:05:47.144 Charlie: the best thing in life is to get that, shoulder tap by a friend and 00:05:47.174 --> 00:05:52.597 our CEO who had an original dream of having a vertically integrated, company 00:05:52.597 --> 00:05:56.587 that was something that he could control from the inception of the molecular 00:05:56.587 --> 00:05:59.527 design to the retail sale to a customer. 00:05:59.767 --> 00:06:05.204 And we spoke on the phone day just after work some we got on the phone and. 00:06:05.954 --> 00:06:08.564 Decided that we would do something like this if the opportunity 00:06:08.564 --> 00:06:09.644 ever presented himself. 00:06:09.644 --> 00:06:13.244 And, we had, I don't know if you've interviewed Jimmy Jet, but he's our 00:06:13.244 --> 00:06:16.934 CEO and he was very good at explaining his original vision for the company. 00:06:16.994 --> 00:06:19.964 it just struck me as a great opportunity at my stage in my 00:06:19.964 --> 00:06:21.644 career to try something like that. 00:06:22.394 --> 00:06:26.784 was absolutely a wonderful, opportunity that I would not wanna pass up. 00:06:26.784 --> 00:06:29.154 I would advise anyone if they ever get that shoulder tapped 00:06:29.154 --> 00:06:30.624 to at least take the phone call. 00:06:30.762 --> 00:06:33.882 it changed my life with respect to being able to take everything you've 00:06:33.882 --> 00:06:38.502 learned along the way and turn it into a, a vertically integrated, service 00:06:38.502 --> 00:06:42.642 oriented technical product supply company, which is what we have at the I. 00:06:43.494 --> 00:06:43.884 Victoria: Awesome. 00:06:43.944 --> 00:06:44.364 I love that. 00:06:44.401 --> 00:06:46.891 and you know, one of the things I like to say, and in fact you, you 00:06:46.891 --> 00:06:50.311 know that tap on the shoulder, what I always like to say as well is when 00:06:50.311 --> 00:06:52.591 opportunity knocks open the door. 00:06:52.834 --> 00:06:53.334 Charlie: You have to. 00:06:53.341 --> 00:06:56.461 Victoria: the door, see what's there and get ready to walk through. 00:06:56.461 --> 00:06:57.301 So it sounds like you did. 00:06:57.451 --> 00:07:00.296 So tell us a little bit about Integrity Biochem. 00:07:00.301 --> 00:07:04.951 'cause I've had actually, uh, Mike Ver on the show a couple times in Chad Hall. 00:07:05.201 --> 00:07:08.981 , but I always love to hear, your point of view and not everybody's 00:07:08.981 --> 00:07:10.271 necessarily familiar with the company. 00:07:10.557 --> 00:07:11.307 Charlie: Great story. 00:07:11.407 --> 00:07:18.957 Even in Cliff note form, it's a story of, technical excellence, commercial bravery. 00:07:19.812 --> 00:07:24.042 persistence, the type of things that, sort of the building blocks for success, 00:07:24.792 --> 00:07:30.256 we've taken a raw material that's been overlooked or, undiscovered or poorly 00:07:30.256 --> 00:07:35.639 considered or not considered, and turned it into a commercially viable 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.789 product for range of applications. 00:07:39.179 --> 00:07:41.069 And we control everything from the. 00:07:41.504 --> 00:07:48.074 Chemical synthesis of the molecule or the molecule packaging and delivery 00:07:48.074 --> 00:07:51.524 and use of the molecule through our channel partners in the marketplace. 00:07:51.974 --> 00:07:57.187 It's a fantastic little story of literally starting from an idea around 00:07:57.487 --> 00:08:01.267 a fundamental understanding of the chemistry and turning it and understanding 00:08:01.267 --> 00:08:04.297 how it can be used in the marketplace to create value for our customers. 00:08:05.014 --> 00:08:05.374 Victoria: Got it. 00:08:05.704 --> 00:08:07.324 So tell me more about this chemistry. 00:08:07.324 --> 00:08:11.674 'cause I gotta be honest, I still don't really understand what it is. 00:08:11.675 --> 00:08:13.655 ' it's a bio surfactant. 00:08:13.655 --> 00:08:14.315 Is that right? 00:08:14.558 --> 00:08:16.418 Charlie: Well, that's one of our two core platforms. 00:08:16.418 --> 00:08:16.778 So we've, 00:08:16.840 --> 00:08:17.130 Victoria: Okay. 00:08:17.328 --> 00:08:23.935 Charlie: we identified a molecule that has unique capabilities in the sense that a 00:08:23.935 --> 00:08:28.615 polymer, but it's not as big as the other polymers that were used in the industry. 00:08:28.615 --> 00:08:28.915 In other 00:08:28.987 --> 00:08:29.527 Victoria: Yeah, 00:08:30.130 --> 00:08:31.660 Charlie: A thousand times smaller. 00:08:31.660 --> 00:08:36.646 Most of the polymers that are used are large, heavier, long, linear 00:08:36.646 --> 00:08:38.476 molecules or cyclic molecules. 00:08:39.013 --> 00:08:42.283 Victoria: physically like molecularly, it's a small molecule. 00:08:42.346 --> 00:08:42.736 Charlie: Right. 00:08:42.943 --> 00:08:43.123 Victoria: Okay. 00:08:43.643 --> 00:08:47.108 Charlie: And then there was a body of literature that came out that convinced 00:08:47.108 --> 00:08:51.203 me when I, when Jimmy asked me to evaluate the technology, there was a body of 00:08:51.203 --> 00:08:52.913 literature that came out that said that. 00:08:53.258 --> 00:08:56.168 In the 20 years while I was doing something else, the rest of the 00:08:56.168 --> 00:08:59.421 chemical world taught themselves how to change those molecules to 00:08:59.421 --> 00:09:00.801 make them even perform better. 00:09:01.551 --> 00:09:05.211 And when we put those pieces together, and Jimmy and I realized from our collective 00:09:05.211 --> 00:09:08.361 experience in the industry that there was a need for what that molecule could 00:09:08.361 --> 00:09:12.918 be, uh, we decided to pursue the first platform, and that is encapsulation. 00:09:13.353 --> 00:09:17.590 Where we were able to make it like minerals or attract two minerals that 00:09:17.590 --> 00:09:19.480 would damage oil field production. 00:09:19.780 --> 00:09:23.530 And if we could use that molecule correctly, we could minimize that damage 00:09:23.973 --> 00:09:27.723 unlock value for our customers that they wouldn't have be expecting otherwise with 00:09:27.825 --> 00:09:28.245 Victoria: Got it. 00:09:28.418 --> 00:09:31.178 so your first product and your first chemistry and first target 00:09:31.178 --> 00:09:35.128 market was really oil field chemicals, and this product does, 00:09:36.328 --> 00:09:38.068 does it let you produce more oil? 00:09:38.068 --> 00:09:39.238 I mean, what does it let you do? 00:09:39.458 --> 00:09:41.198 Charlie: It has two or three functioned at once. 00:09:41.435 --> 00:09:41.855 Victoria: Okay. 00:09:42.098 --> 00:09:44.168 Charlie: the reservoir from clogging up itself. 00:09:44.278 --> 00:09:47.668 If you can imagine, I dunno if you've ever been to a dam and you would see 00:09:47.668 --> 00:09:50.818 twigs come to the front of the dam before they go out, the drainage pipe, 00:09:51.055 --> 00:09:51.565 Victoria: Yeah. 00:09:51.718 --> 00:09:54.508 Charlie: a reservoir, those twigs pile up unless water goes 00:09:54.508 --> 00:09:55.678 out the drainage pipe right. 00:09:56.113 --> 00:09:59.760 So we keep those tweaks from ever reaching the, the draining point, 00:09:59.880 --> 00:10:03.990 um, drain pipe of that particular dam and allow more oil or liquids to 00:10:03.990 --> 00:10:05.640 be reproduced from that reservoir. 00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:09.720 So that's a form of what they call fines control, and that was an 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.120 undertreated need in the oil field. 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:16.650 That certainly adds value if you can control that over a period of time to 00:10:16.650 --> 00:10:18.600 allow more hydrocarbons to be produced. 00:10:18.965 --> 00:10:19.475 Victoria: Interesting. 00:10:19.733 --> 00:10:20.753 Charlie: and that's the primary use. 00:10:20.753 --> 00:10:24.353 And obviously that has application from everything from cat litter, 00:10:24.353 --> 00:10:28.463 dust control, to fines, migration on highway, on dirt roads, those 00:10:28.463 --> 00:10:31.853 types of things all are equally applicable in different environments. 00:10:31.853 --> 00:10:36.143 But the, the founding application was in the oil field, trying to keep those fines 00:10:36.353 --> 00:10:39.776 from clogging the port roads reservoir. 00:10:40.058 --> 00:10:40.688 Victoria: That's crazy. 00:10:40.988 --> 00:10:41.888 So it's crazy. 00:10:41.918 --> 00:10:42.728 That's really awesome. 00:10:42.922 --> 00:10:49.612 And when I talked to your colleagues at, uh, IIBC, in fact, Mike Ver, um, is one 00:10:49.612 --> 00:10:53.632 that he introduced me to you and he was just like, you've gotta talk to Charlie. 00:10:53.632 --> 00:10:55.522 He's the most amazing guy. 00:10:55.912 --> 00:11:00.322 Um, and he gives, he really is, you know what, it is such a credit when 00:11:00.322 --> 00:11:01.972 you've got people around you that. 00:11:02.282 --> 00:11:04.772 Love you, that lauded you, that really appreciate you. 00:11:04.772 --> 00:11:09.152 So, um, I, you know, kudos to you and to the IBC team. 00:11:09.182 --> 00:11:12.422 'cause I do think, uh, you guys have developed a great team there and you 00:11:12.422 --> 00:11:15.772 know, you and Jimmy Jett, you were there from the origins, Mike and 00:11:15.802 --> 00:11:19.192 others credit you with identifying, developing this core chemistry. 00:11:19.398 --> 00:11:23.118 and you kind of talked a little bit about how that comes about, 00:11:23.118 --> 00:11:27.048 but you make it sound a little bit easy to be honest, you know, well, 00:11:27.048 --> 00:11:29.158 we saw this idea, and it worked. 00:11:29.923 --> 00:11:31.093 It's more difficult than that. 00:11:31.093 --> 00:11:32.713 I know it's more than difficult than that. 00:11:32.713 --> 00:11:38.593 So what have you found to be really critical in creating that success and, 00:11:38.593 --> 00:11:40.458 and helping to develop that technology? 00:11:40.685 --> 00:11:43.355 Charlie: Well, there are some peculiar attributes of a good 00:11:43.355 --> 00:11:45.155 mind that require, that are 00:11:45.392 --> 00:11:45.512 Victoria: I. 00:11:45.725 --> 00:11:49.655 Charlie: to take something like that and turn it into, and I, I qualify 00:11:49.655 --> 00:11:51.485 as having those peculiar attributes. 00:11:51.485 --> 00:11:54.995 You have to be able, have to be able to connect disparate 00:11:54.995 --> 00:11:56.615 data sets and understand. 00:11:56.836 --> 00:12:01.426 Things that are not in the same zip code, but certainly could be a, a wonderful 00:12:01.426 --> 00:12:04.996 vacation if you experienced it all at once within two or three adjacent zip codes, 00:12:05.083 --> 00:12:05.653 Victoria: Yeah. 00:12:05.716 --> 00:12:05.926 Charlie: to you. 00:12:05.926 --> 00:12:11.003 So there was clearly the ability to understand that there was a market need. 00:12:11.116 --> 00:12:15.353 Jimmy and I have been in the industry for over 50 years We understood that 00:12:15.353 --> 00:12:21.743 that was a problem and we felt, we made a judgment that it was not being addressed 00:12:21.803 --> 00:12:23.693 adequately with the existing chemistry. 00:12:23.693 --> 00:12:29.933 So there was that obvious commercial need, and we understood be customers 00:12:29.933 --> 00:12:31.463 interested in solving that problem. 00:12:31.660 --> 00:12:31.950 Victoria: Yeah. 00:12:32.138 --> 00:12:34.898 Charlie: Then there was the unique chemical structure. 00:12:34.898 --> 00:12:39.545 You have to be able to recognize uniquenesses in everything that 00:12:39.545 --> 00:12:42.785 you do or the results that you produce from your scientific work. 00:12:43.445 --> 00:12:46.535 this chemical had a unique chemical structure. 00:12:46.535 --> 00:12:48.935 It was a lower molecular weight, linear polymer. 00:12:49.805 --> 00:12:52.895 And then lastly, I had the access to one of the best minds. 00:12:52.895 --> 00:12:56.525 I don't know if you've met one of our research fellows, a fellow named Dr. 00:12:56.525 --> 00:12:56.945 Ashoka. 00:12:58.247 --> 00:12:58.467 Victoria: Mm 00:12:58.580 --> 00:13:00.410 Charlie: trust him to understand. 00:13:00.560 --> 00:13:04.220 He explained to me how well they can manufacture this 00:13:04.220 --> 00:13:06.453 molecule in the 21st century. 00:13:06.873 --> 00:13:13.253 And then it became the final step was, does IBC have the manufacturing expertise 00:13:13.433 --> 00:13:16.913 and capital to make the product at scale? 00:13:16.973 --> 00:13:18.623 So those four things all 00:13:18.695 --> 00:13:19.085 Victoria: hmm. 00:13:19.163 --> 00:13:21.973 Charlie: answered and agreed upon to be readily available 00:13:21.973 --> 00:13:23.083 to go ahead and move ahead. 00:13:23.113 --> 00:13:24.733 'cause we were putting our hard earned. 00:13:24.786 --> 00:13:27.216 capital and time and effort into the project. 00:13:27.216 --> 00:13:29.976 And once we came to that, it was a Harry Truman decision. 00:13:29.976 --> 00:13:31.656 I don't know if you ever read about Harry Truman when he 00:13:31.743 --> 00:13:32.718 Victoria: No, I haven't. 00:13:33.066 --> 00:13:36.426 Charlie: when he made a decision, he goes to bed and when he wakes up and he feels 00:13:36.426 --> 00:13:38.213 good about it, that was the decision. 00:13:38.213 --> 00:13:39.443 You never, you never look back. 00:13:39.443 --> 00:13:40.073 So that's 00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:40.640 Victoria: Yeah. 00:13:40.643 --> 00:13:43.973 Charlie: final key is once you make a decision around all the information you 00:13:43.973 --> 00:13:45.666 think you need, you don't look back. 00:13:45.666 --> 00:13:48.216 So we just, we just went about our business to do those 00:13:48.216 --> 00:13:49.356 things and get the job done. 00:13:49.818 --> 00:13:53.028 Victoria: Uh, and, and I guess, you know, to me it makes sense to a certain 00:13:53.028 --> 00:13:56.778 degree that, where IBC started was really the oil field because I do 00:13:56.778 --> 00:13:58.098 feel like there's a whole lot of. 00:13:58.398 --> 00:14:01.068 Cowboy risk taking that takes place. 00:14:01.098 --> 00:14:01.428 Right. 00:14:01.428 --> 00:14:06.138 And so sometimes it's, whether it's in your DNA or whether it's in, just 00:14:06.138 --> 00:14:10.458 the experience that you've got around risk and reward and the ability 00:14:10.458 --> 00:14:12.888 just to identify and take that risk. 00:14:13.051 --> 00:14:14.166 Charlie: That's half the story. 00:14:14.166 --> 00:14:17.766 So in, in the oil field, we are a, a risk taking group. 00:14:18.378 --> 00:14:18.708 Victoria: Yeah. 00:14:18.786 --> 00:14:21.586 Charlie: particular case, it was combined with, Warren Buffett's 00:14:21.586 --> 00:14:23.086 belief that you only invest in things. 00:14:23.086 --> 00:14:23.566 You know, 00:14:23.599 --> 00:14:26.863 I read Warren Buffett's, uh, newsletter every spring and one 00:14:26.863 --> 00:14:30.013 of the first articles was he only invest in stuff that he understands. 00:14:30.703 --> 00:14:33.493 And you, if you're gonna start and take a chance in this world, you 00:14:33.493 --> 00:14:35.893 might as well start with something you under, you think you understand. 00:14:35.893 --> 00:14:39.463 So I put, we put those two things together and Jimmy and I and a couple 00:14:39.463 --> 00:14:40.873 other, the original founders, Mr. 00:14:40.873 --> 00:14:43.603 Bryce Parker, we all got together and said, this is something we can do. 00:14:44.145 --> 00:14:44.435 Victoria: Yeah. 00:14:44.878 --> 00:14:46.588 Charlie: And that's how it, that's how it happened. 00:14:46.588 --> 00:14:46.798 And it 00:14:46.865 --> 00:14:47.155 Victoria: Yeah. 00:14:47.488 --> 00:14:50.568 Charlie: and you're right, I, I make it sound, uh, much simpler. 00:14:50.568 --> 00:14:52.728 There were decades of scientific research. 00:14:53.388 --> 00:14:56.478 You have to be able to synthesize and understand the key parts of 00:14:56.478 --> 00:15:00.768 that, the results of those research efforts, put it together and bring 00:15:00.768 --> 00:15:04.281 those disparate data sets together and then decide what to do with it. 00:15:04.533 --> 00:15:04.893 Victoria: Yeah. 00:15:05.133 --> 00:15:08.493 What I think is interesting, Charlie, and this is just an observation, 00:15:08.573 --> 00:15:13.253 from, as you talk about your origin story in combining lasers and rocks 00:15:13.253 --> 00:15:17.103 and whatever, and figuring out that there's money there and this, , and 00:15:17.103 --> 00:15:18.303 what you're doing here with IBC. 00:15:18.762 --> 00:15:23.352 I, I actually think there's like a unique aspect to your ability to not 00:15:23.352 --> 00:15:28.452 just do the science, but match the science up with money and customer value. 00:15:28.482 --> 00:15:31.752 'cause that's often does not exist in the same person. 00:15:31.752 --> 00:15:34.962 That's what creates conflict across organizations, right? 00:15:34.962 --> 00:15:37.032 When the researchers say, but this is the best molecule. 00:15:37.272 --> 00:15:38.532 Yeah, but nobody's gonna buy it. 00:15:38.822 --> 00:15:42.422 And so figuring out how to bridge the science and the 00:15:42.422 --> 00:15:44.762 market can be really challenging. 00:15:44.993 --> 00:15:46.283 How did you guys do that? 00:15:46.283 --> 00:15:50.783 I mean, so obviously it sounds like you kind of inherently understand that, but I 00:15:50.783 --> 00:15:55.673 think this idea that you create something I, I don't believe in the field of dreams. 00:15:55.673 --> 00:15:58.763 If you build it, there is no guarantee that they will come. 00:15:59.063 --> 00:16:03.833 You have to figure out how to identify or how to create that market. 00:16:04.073 --> 00:16:05.543 How did that play out for you guys? 00:16:05.998 --> 00:16:09.808 Charlie: Jimmy and I both had, and Bryce and some of the other 00:16:09.868 --> 00:16:16.348 officers in the company had decades of experience understanding to 00:16:16.348 --> 00:16:20.548 manufacture and mixed chemicals one, one of the best untold stories. 00:16:21.028 --> 00:16:25.708 Of our company is our Chief operating officer who had never admitted 00:16:25.708 --> 00:16:30.478 otherwise one of the more talented people to blend water-based products. 00:16:32.038 --> 00:16:36.928 this is a water-based product and not that that was singularly the most important 00:16:36.928 --> 00:16:39.313 thing, but everywhere you turned in IBC. 00:16:40.363 --> 00:16:43.783 We went down a checklist of things we needed to do, and 00:16:43.783 --> 00:16:45.433 Jimmy was a master at this. 00:16:45.433 --> 00:16:48.383 And I always say to people that, he would struggle without us 00:16:48.383 --> 00:16:49.673 and we would fail without him. 00:16:49.913 --> 00:16:51.653 Uh, this is where it really showed up. 00:16:52.133 --> 00:16:55.103 He was able to understand and put these pieces together. 00:16:55.103 --> 00:16:57.473 He had two or three pieces of information for me. 00:16:57.893 --> 00:17:00.803 He had his vast experience from the marketplace to understand 00:17:00.803 --> 00:17:03.203 the customer needs, and we have. 00:17:03.953 --> 00:17:08.513 Clearly some of the highest quality people in product manufacturer who 00:17:08.513 --> 00:17:12.113 could give him the confidence to know that we could scale up this scientific 00:17:12.113 --> 00:17:14.213 phenomenon into a scalable product. 00:17:14.506 --> 00:17:18.496 from the idea through the manufacturer to the supply chain and delivering 00:17:18.496 --> 00:17:22.996 product is one of the skills that frankly beyond science. 00:17:22.996 --> 00:17:26.356 It's about your ability to understand commercial potential, and this is 00:17:26.356 --> 00:17:29.206 where the credit really goes to Jimmy and the team he has around him. 00:17:29.943 --> 00:17:30.233 Victoria: Yeah. 00:17:30.301 --> 00:17:32.551 Charlie: me, it was, for me, it was a very, I have to tell 00:17:32.551 --> 00:17:35.071 you the first decision I was 00:17:35.133 --> 00:17:35.423 Victoria: Yeah. 00:17:35.461 --> 00:17:37.201 Charlie: how easy it was going to be for me. 00:17:37.441 --> 00:17:38.881 Victoria, I'm gonna be honest now. 00:17:38.881 --> 00:17:43.801 This, this is, uh, something perhaps I shouldn't confess, but 00:17:43.873 --> 00:17:44.673 Victoria: like confessions. 00:17:44.673 --> 00:17:47.968 We could almost call this truth Confessions of the Chemical Show. 00:17:47.968 --> 00:17:48.568 How's that? 00:17:48.931 --> 00:17:49.831 Charlie: it makes it so 00:17:53.371 --> 00:17:53.851 facts. 00:17:54.916 --> 00:17:59.146 The general nature of what's needed to complete a, a process. 00:17:59.146 --> 00:18:03.946 We know we needed, we knew we needed able to keep these fines 00:18:03.946 --> 00:18:05.686 from migrating in the reservoir 00:18:06.138 --> 00:18:06.428 Victoria: Yeah. 00:18:06.556 --> 00:18:09.376 Charlie: encapsulation, which is our primary tool. 00:18:09.796 --> 00:18:11.956 Is a known solution to do that. 00:18:11.956 --> 00:18:15.976 Encapsulating things controls the movement and timing of movement of particles. 00:18:16.903 --> 00:18:16.963 Victoria: Yeah. 00:18:16.966 --> 00:18:19.516 Charlie: in our case, we had something that was in water. 00:18:19.516 --> 00:18:20.476 We knew the reservoir. 00:18:20.476 --> 00:18:24.326 There was, we were gonna be injecting, makeup water into the reservoir and we 00:18:24.326 --> 00:18:27.926 knew that we had a molecule that was likely to perform in that circumstance. 00:18:28.616 --> 00:18:33.086 And then we ran tests that the industry uses as indicators of that performance. 00:18:33.416 --> 00:18:35.636 And prove it to ourselves and prove it to the industry. 00:18:36.086 --> 00:18:41.816 So from my point of view, I had a world class synthetic biochemist, and Dr. 00:18:41.818 --> 00:18:42.688 Ashoka Midori. 00:18:43.528 --> 00:18:46.528 I had, uh, a, a known commercial need. 00:18:46.528 --> 00:18:49.288 I had a primary understanding of what the minerals were 00:18:49.288 --> 00:18:50.728 that were causing the problem. 00:18:51.118 --> 00:18:55.228 So my checklist for success was shorter than Jimmy's, but it did allow Jimmy to 00:18:55.228 --> 00:18:57.088 say, okay, if I get that under control. 00:18:58.560 --> 00:18:58.840 Victoria: Yeah. 00:18:59.203 --> 00:19:01.843 Charlie: It sounds easier than it was, but it really draws from the 00:19:01.843 --> 00:19:06.468 experience we all had collectively around the a sizing up an opportunity. 00:19:06.556 --> 00:19:10.066 Victoria: was this technology or these products and the pro, 00:19:10.096 --> 00:19:12.196 you know, encapsulation, was that already taking place? 00:19:12.196 --> 00:19:15.226 So I know you said, you know, you guys recognized and the market knew there 00:19:15.226 --> 00:19:18.663 was an opportunity because there was a problem, and so you could solve for it. 00:19:18.933 --> 00:19:20.913 Were others already doing this? 00:19:20.913 --> 00:19:24.363 Were you able to, you know, kind of piggyback or follow the lead of 00:19:24.363 --> 00:19:25.623 somebody that was already doing it? 00:19:25.623 --> 00:19:26.673 Or is this completely new? 00:19:27.156 --> 00:19:29.916 Charlie: We were able to translate it from other areas of the industry. 00:19:29.916 --> 00:19:32.736 So encapsulation is used for other drilling app 00:19:33.123 --> 00:19:33.513 Victoria: Got it. 00:19:33.516 --> 00:19:37.296 Charlie: other different types of drilling applications, but not in the category 00:19:37.296 --> 00:19:38.886 of what was known as clay control. 00:19:39.336 --> 00:19:42.306 So we, we basically injected this. 00:19:42.641 --> 00:19:43.931 In a way that was unique. 00:19:43.931 --> 00:19:47.021 And I, you know, people have tried it in the past, but I think 00:19:47.021 --> 00:19:50.171 in this particular case, they didn't have the right ingredients. 00:19:50.171 --> 00:19:52.661 They didn't have the right size molecule, they didn't have the 00:19:52.781 --> 00:19:57.521 ability to, you know, engineer the molecule to perform the way we did. 00:19:57.821 --> 00:20:00.671 So we had the, we had some differences that allowed us to do that. 00:20:01.361 --> 00:20:05.591 But yes, there we were, we were clever enough to draw from the history of other 00:20:05.591 --> 00:20:07.511 applications and bring it into our. 00:20:08.790 --> 00:20:14.376 Victoria: how much of this is luck versus, you know, kind of deliberate choices? 00:20:14.376 --> 00:20:19.516 And I, and I ask that and, and I ask that in a way because, it's really easy. 00:20:20.476 --> 00:20:25.186 A lot of times to identify new chemistries and to identify new products, right? 00:20:25.186 --> 00:20:30.136 Humans and scientists and, and people across the industry. 00:20:30.466 --> 00:20:31.366 We're creative. 00:20:31.366 --> 00:20:37.306 We can identify new things and in isolation, in a lab, in a notebook. 00:20:37.306 --> 00:20:41.386 As you're sketching out this idea, you talked about crashing two ideas together. 00:20:41.566 --> 00:20:41.746 Okay? 00:20:41.746 --> 00:20:45.316 When you crash two ideas together, in theory, you can come up with 00:20:45.316 --> 00:20:47.776 something, and yet we know. 00:20:48.151 --> 00:20:55.231 It is not easy to implement and it's not easy to scale and take them to market. 00:20:55.231 --> 00:20:59.821 So, so just, you know, I, I ask that luck versus, not question, but maybe more 00:20:59.821 --> 00:21:02.791 importantly, what advice do you have? 00:21:02.791 --> 00:21:08.521 How could others be taking this approach and applying it successfully elsewhere? 00:21:08.984 --> 00:21:11.504 Charlie: Well, that, that is a challenging question. 00:21:11.539 --> 00:21:15.074 I, I will tell you that I personally never thought it was lucky that we 00:21:15.074 --> 00:21:19.424 were able to scale it up because I have, I have great faith in the people 00:21:19.424 --> 00:21:21.194 who run our manufacturing process. 00:21:21.194 --> 00:21:22.724 They're phenomenally good 00:21:23.001 --> 00:21:23.291 Victoria: Yeah. 00:21:23.324 --> 00:21:25.664 Charlie: at manufacturing water-based chemicals, and I, I. 00:21:26.038 --> 00:21:29.398 As investor and as founder of the company, that's one of our strongest pieces, so 00:21:29.398 --> 00:21:30.748 I, I will tell you, there's no luck. 00:21:31.994 --> 00:21:37.034 for a scientist to have invincible value, have to have a passion that's 00:21:37.034 --> 00:21:43.274 fueled by curiosity to constantly be on the lookout for particular, or, you 00:21:43.274 --> 00:21:48.254 know, unusual molecules that provide unusually or rarely obtained results. 00:21:48.884 --> 00:21:50.804 And that is a key thing. 00:21:50.804 --> 00:21:53.204 And then you have to be able to turn that into. 00:21:53.904 --> 00:21:57.504 direct understanding how it may be applied for an industrial benefit. 00:21:57.594 --> 00:21:58.824 Those are the two things. 00:21:59.311 --> 00:22:03.571 you're not at a red light and someone doesn't beep your horn, turn left, 00:22:04.051 --> 00:22:07.291 that means you're not distracted in your subconscious enough to be thinking 00:22:07.291 --> 00:22:12.301 about the, some of the weird, unique, uncommon results of science that allows 00:22:12.301 --> 00:22:14.071 for an opportunity to be discovered. 00:22:14.791 --> 00:22:17.551 there's a certain element of that that some people will call luck. 00:22:17.611 --> 00:22:18.661 It was probably luck. 00:22:19.521 --> 00:22:22.341 Jimmy and, and Charlie, although I'll give, I'll probably say it was 00:22:22.341 --> 00:22:25.761 more about persistence, but Jimmy and Charlie came across this molecule 00:22:25.823 --> 00:22:26.113 Victoria: Yeah. 00:22:26.151 --> 00:22:30.148 Charlie: no one had yet observed or examined for an oil field application. 00:22:30.148 --> 00:22:34.618 We, we just got the first base first, with this molecule for this application. 00:22:34.844 --> 00:22:38.624 I would grant some degree of luck on that, but I also know that luck was 00:22:38.624 --> 00:22:40.844 driven by a passion and a curiosity. 00:22:40.844 --> 00:22:45.194 Does look for a new molecule that's been bypassed. 00:22:45.614 --> 00:22:50.024 That had properties that people would recognize once you were able to confirm 00:22:50.024 --> 00:22:52.184 it for them, recognize as valuable. 00:22:52.184 --> 00:22:58.574 So on the scaling side, BBC's manufacturing capacity is second to none. 00:22:59.024 --> 00:23:01.394 And I'm very proud to work with our customer service and 00:23:01.394 --> 00:23:03.104 manufacturing folks because of it. 00:23:03.584 --> 00:23:07.574 And on the scientific side, I think we're driven by a passion around our 00:23:07.574 --> 00:23:10.214 intent to explore a molecule that's been. 00:23:10.649 --> 00:23:14.579 To quote James t Curve to go where no man's gone before with this molecule. 00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:18.759 So there's a lot of that that I think would be ascribed to luck. 00:23:19.149 --> 00:23:22.239 But the reality is it's a luck driven by passion and curiosity. 00:23:22.446 --> 00:23:23.526 Victoria: Yeah, I love that. 00:23:23.526 --> 00:23:24.426 And I think that's right. 00:23:24.426 --> 00:23:27.186 I mean, I think, you know, the other thing is what prepare luck is when 00:23:27.186 --> 00:23:31.476 preparedness meets opportunity, uh, is one way of saying it in your case, you 00:23:31.476 --> 00:23:34.070 know, it's, , curiosity and, readiness. 00:23:34.130 --> 00:23:34.520 Right. 00:23:34.520 --> 00:23:36.560 Just being, being ready to do more. 00:23:36.650 --> 00:23:36.710 Um. 00:23:36.994 --> 00:23:38.704 So IB, c. 00:23:38.704 --> 00:23:42.664 So we talked about, you know, kind of this discovery of the first generation 00:23:42.664 --> 00:23:47.224 technology and you guys are now working on second generation technology. 00:23:47.417 --> 00:23:51.937 tell us more about that and what that is and how that, kind of builds on 00:23:51.937 --> 00:23:53.767 each other, um, and where it's going. 00:23:54.535 --> 00:23:59.515 Charlie: So that is, uh, the second of the two strategic decisions. 00:23:59.515 --> 00:24:04.435 I felt I, I was able to work with Jimmy to and ex and develop. 00:24:04.885 --> 00:24:07.495 Uh, it is the toughest decision in my professional life. 00:24:07.682 --> 00:24:10.802 I mean, achievement in the first days is a very lonely moment. 00:24:10.952 --> 00:24:11.792 And when you. 00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:13.610 Discover something. 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:17.730 Whether you do it collectively or by yourself, you have to 00:24:17.730 --> 00:24:20.940 have the professional confidence to recognize what you've done. 00:24:21.747 --> 00:24:22.107 Victoria: Hmm. 00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:26.850 Charlie: in the spring of 2020, during year, the first days of 00:24:26.850 --> 00:24:32.230 Covid, a great young, scientific mind come into my laboratory and 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:35.377 propose an idea to synthesize. 00:24:36.277 --> 00:24:37.932 category of bio surfactants. 00:24:38.002 --> 00:24:43.207 He's a, a wonderful young fellow who was able to recognize opportunity 00:24:43.657 --> 00:24:49.117 in a molecule that hasn't been seen, put together, assembled in a way 00:24:49.117 --> 00:24:53.033 to make a, a product that has not yet been developed in the industry. 00:24:54.083 --> 00:24:56.723 That was during the covid period when we were focused on other 00:24:56.723 --> 00:25:00.743 things like company survival and product changes in our product mix. 00:25:00.987 --> 00:25:06.057 And we had to sequester him scientifically to synthesize and commit to the 00:25:06.057 --> 00:25:11.297 focus during those times, those unsettling times develop this molecule. 00:25:11.297 --> 00:25:16.810 And became our surfactant technology and that scientist now spawned 00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:20.010 an entire generation, probably two or three decades worth. 00:25:20.490 --> 00:25:23.970 Of basic scientific research that allowed us to assemble the team that 00:25:23.970 --> 00:25:29.363 Jimmy's assembled today to diversify our company into this, bio surfactant space. 00:25:30.125 --> 00:25:30.575 Victoria: Got it. 00:25:30.803 --> 00:25:34.370 Charlie: that was a three to six month period of securing the 00:25:34.370 --> 00:25:39.770 focus of a great, young scientific mind to synthesize this molecule. 00:25:40.145 --> 00:25:43.865 In a way that we could present back to the company in a time when they 00:25:43.865 --> 00:25:46.955 probably wanted to talk about almost anything else other than covid. 00:25:48.268 --> 00:25:49.408 was an opportunity. 00:25:49.408 --> 00:25:51.388 It was, was a challenge. 00:25:51.678 --> 00:25:55.758 when you are a geologist and you are being asked to make decisions 00:25:55.758 --> 00:25:57.408 around a new chemical species. 00:25:58.338 --> 00:26:01.488 must draw from every resource available to you. 00:26:01.638 --> 00:26:04.788 That's why I reached out to a fellow like Mike, I hope you've 00:26:04.788 --> 00:26:06.108 had a chance to talk to Dr. 00:26:06.108 --> 00:26:06.768 Dan Dur. 00:26:06.768 --> 00:26:09.808 He's a world surfactant, chemist. 00:26:10.330 --> 00:26:10.620 Victoria: Yeah. 00:26:10.708 --> 00:26:14.878 Charlie: then I had the folks in our laboratory, all trained chemist who gave 00:26:14.878 --> 00:26:19.258 me assurances that I could speak to Jimmy about something that we had discovered and 00:26:19.258 --> 00:26:23.308 now serve as the platform of opportunity for our company for decades to come. 00:26:23.875 --> 00:26:24.295 Victoria: Yeah. 00:26:24.475 --> 00:26:25.135 SS 00:26:25.933 --> 00:26:28.783 Charlie: but it was also among the most stressful things I've ever had to work 00:26:28.855 --> 00:26:31.015 Victoria: what, what made it stressful for you? 00:26:31.337 --> 00:26:34.997 Charlie: I have spent a lifetime looking at rocks and particularly shales in the 00:26:34.997 --> 00:26:40.127 unconventional rocks in the oil field, and like I could talk to almost anyone 00:26:40.127 --> 00:26:42.167 about those things, those materials. 00:26:43.512 --> 00:26:47.262 I had to, I've never performed a chemical synthesis to, to 00:26:47.614 --> 00:26:47.734 Victoria: Hmm. 00:26:47.982 --> 00:26:51.552 Charlie: I mean, I've made acid performed acid based reactions in my entire life, 00:26:52.632 --> 00:26:54.642 rocks and acid, all that type of stuff. 00:26:55.272 --> 00:27:00.375 But the type of chemistry that led to the discovery of our bio surfactant 00:27:00.375 --> 00:27:05.415 represented a step change upwards capabilities beyond our initial. 00:27:05.665 --> 00:27:08.635 Technologies that were used to build the company, basically forming 00:27:08.635 --> 00:27:10.795 these encapsulating molecules that 00:27:10.947 --> 00:27:11.237 Victoria: Yeah. 00:27:11.602 --> 00:27:14.242 Charlie: So all of that was an instantaneous challenge. 00:27:14.242 --> 00:27:15.472 It came to us quickly. 00:27:16.372 --> 00:27:18.142 wanted to manufacture it. 00:27:18.262 --> 00:27:24.232 And our, our emphasis is expedited, but careful, evaluation of our technologies. 00:27:24.438 --> 00:27:27.408 then once we began to realize the scale of the market that was. 00:27:28.083 --> 00:27:30.423 Available to us outside the oil field. 00:27:31.233 --> 00:27:32.193 added intensity. 00:27:32.193 --> 00:27:33.393 You wanted to succeed. 00:27:33.393 --> 00:27:34.143 You did not want 00:27:34.260 --> 00:27:34.550 Victoria: Yeah. 00:27:34.683 --> 00:27:35.943 Charlie: for the company, obviously. 00:27:36.603 --> 00:27:41.823 So it was all these things combined, the the covid year, unfamiliarity of 00:27:41.823 --> 00:27:47.963 the science, the opportunity that could quickly allow for a lack of focus. 00:27:47.993 --> 00:27:48.203 When you 00:27:48.315 --> 00:27:48.535 Victoria: Hmm. 00:27:48.593 --> 00:27:49.343 Charlie: company that's. 00:27:49.497 --> 00:27:52.797 Performing in a niche in the oil field, and suddenly we, you can see 00:27:52.797 --> 00:27:56.097 all these other markets in front of you with the opportunities they present. 00:27:56.937 --> 00:27:59.967 easy to get distracted and not focus on the things that could 00:27:59.967 --> 00:28:03.327 allow you to quickly, you would miss opportunities to quickly capitalize. 00:28:04.077 --> 00:28:07.897 all those things, , in the weight of the world wasn't on my shoulders alone, 00:28:08.587 --> 00:28:11.737 those are the types of things you think about is how do I stay focused? 00:28:12.637 --> 00:28:15.967 How do we move ahead in the best way forward for the company, and 00:28:15.967 --> 00:28:17.407 how do we do it in this environment? 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:20.179 Victoria: Yeah, so that's so interesting. 00:28:20.209 --> 00:28:23.749 Um, I hadn't fully appreciated that because of course, as you 00:28:23.749 --> 00:28:28.039 say, you, you guys were working in some ways in your comfort zone. 00:28:28.247 --> 00:28:28.537 Charlie: Yeah. 00:28:28.669 --> 00:28:31.709 Victoria: And knew how to make that happen, and understood the 00:28:31.709 --> 00:28:35.159 market that it was going into an oil field and having that unique space. 00:28:35.409 --> 00:28:39.019 And then bringing in the bios, surfactants, new technology, 00:28:39.169 --> 00:28:41.119 new markets, new customers. 00:28:41.362 --> 00:28:44.692 And in a period of time when, you know, during Covid, I'm not sure 00:28:44.692 --> 00:28:46.132 anybody really wanted to innovate. 00:28:46.162 --> 00:28:50.002 'cause in fact, a lot of people I talked to said innovation 00:28:50.002 --> 00:28:51.652 died for a couple of years. 00:28:51.772 --> 00:28:52.222 Right. 00:28:52.282 --> 00:28:56.472 Um, and certainly when you think about, application development, right? 00:28:56.472 --> 00:29:01.152 So yeah, you can develop this product, but then convincing a customer 00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:01.660 Charlie: Mm-hmm. 00:29:02.052 --> 00:29:04.032 Victoria: maybe has to do a new formulation and has to go 00:29:04.032 --> 00:29:07.162 through the whole process of it, can be a little bit, uh. 00:29:07.182 --> 00:29:11.772 It can be challenging, and I know it, many, many people said that 00:29:11.772 --> 00:29:14.202 that type of innovation stalled 00:29:14.269 --> 00:29:15.229 for a couple of years. 00:29:15.229 --> 00:29:19.579 So, um, so that was a, a, a big bet for you guys. 00:29:20.038 --> 00:29:24.508 Charlie: an outstanding example an organization fulfilling the 00:29:24.508 --> 00:29:26.788 original mission of the CEO 00:29:27.050 --> 00:29:27.340 Victoria: Yeah. 00:29:27.388 --> 00:29:31.828 Charlie: and he bet on us, and we bet on us at a time when. 00:29:31.990 --> 00:29:34.390 Everyone would've been happy just saying, well, we'll wait a year or 00:29:34.627 --> 00:29:35.377 Victoria: Yeah. 00:29:35.470 --> 00:29:36.460 Charlie: didn't, we didn't wait. 00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:37.300 We were all over it. 00:29:37.570 --> 00:29:42.847 And the other aspect that I didn't touch on was, specialty chemical markets and 00:29:42.847 --> 00:29:47.857 the chemicals associated with those bring an obligation for intellectual 00:29:47.857 --> 00:29:51.637 property protection at a level even higher than what we've encountered 00:29:51.637 --> 00:29:53.287 with our first generation of product. 00:29:53.704 --> 00:29:54.094 Victoria: Wow. 00:29:54.157 --> 00:29:56.557 Charlie: we had to quickly engage, find. 00:29:57.053 --> 00:30:00.653 Resources, law firms that could help us quickly protect our 00:30:00.653 --> 00:30:02.933 discovery all at the same time. 00:30:02.963 --> 00:30:04.763 I mean, it was all sudden success 00:30:05.105 --> 00:30:05.795 Victoria: Yeah. 00:30:06.313 --> 00:30:09.133 Charlie: that made it some of the most inspiring, but yet 00:30:09.133 --> 00:30:10.303 challenging times in my career. 00:30:11.365 --> 00:30:11.665 Victoria: Yeah. 00:30:11.665 --> 00:30:12.295 I love that. 00:30:12.295 --> 00:30:16.105 And so, so let's talk about this because I do think when people are in 00:30:16.105 --> 00:30:21.192 this innovation space, first of all, recognizing what you need to do in a new 00:30:21.192 --> 00:30:22.872 market is sometimes not obvious, right? 00:30:22.872 --> 00:30:27.462 Because we base most of our decisions based on past history. 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:27.900 Charlie: Mm-hmm. 00:30:28.032 --> 00:30:31.812 Victoria: and, you know, uh, as the financial guys would say, past history 00:30:31.812 --> 00:30:33.552 is no predictor of future success. 00:30:33.552 --> 00:30:36.402 And oh, by the way, as we record this, the markets are. 00:30:36.957 --> 00:30:39.777 Lord, I don't know what they're doing today, but you know, this is, this is 00:30:39.777 --> 00:30:44.247 just past the, the big tariff announcement of quote unquote liberation day. 00:30:44.327 --> 00:30:49.307 And markets have been in chaos, so I don't, um, I'm hoping it all comes back. 00:30:49.307 --> 00:30:49.787 We'll see. 00:30:50.054 --> 00:30:56.287 but, but anyway, the, this whole idea of, moving into a new market, we often. 00:30:56.767 --> 00:31:00.047 Rely on our prior experience, and you weren't able to do it 00:31:00.047 --> 00:31:01.097 because it was completely new. 00:31:01.097 --> 00:31:04.097 So how do you, how do you navigate to know that you're making the 00:31:04.097 --> 00:31:09.497 right decisions around people around direction, around making that happen? 00:31:09.860 --> 00:31:13.010 Charlie: It's usually one of the most challenging aspects of the 00:31:13.010 --> 00:31:15.550 entire adventure because, normally. 00:31:15.810 --> 00:31:22.110 My success rate on decisions was well over 80%, and I can tell you I don't think I've 00:31:22.110 --> 00:31:24.720 added that high of an average on this one. 00:31:26.622 --> 00:31:28.512 Made the effort, you know, fail, 00:31:28.959 --> 00:31:29.469 Victoria: Yeah. 00:31:29.712 --> 00:31:34.212 Charlie: a lot of trial and error learning around each of those decisions. 00:31:34.219 --> 00:31:39.292 Let's, let's, then of course, you draw on your network, I'm sure Jimmy and 00:31:39.292 --> 00:31:44.182 I did, to start gathering people and building a team to help you learn and 00:31:44.182 --> 00:31:47.508 quickly catapult you or leapfrog process. 00:31:47.508 --> 00:31:49.488 The, the same building blocks. 00:31:50.673 --> 00:31:55.143 are used to identify a product for potential commerciality in the 00:31:55.143 --> 00:31:57.153 oil field apply to other markets. 00:31:57.755 --> 00:31:57.975 Victoria: Hmm. 00:31:58.113 --> 00:32:02.363 Charlie: have different context, different customer requirements, different forms 00:32:02.363 --> 00:32:04.043 of packaging, different cost base. 00:32:04.593 --> 00:32:08.103 You know, different, uh, environmental and regulatory compliance standards. 00:32:08.103 --> 00:32:11.673 These are things you must learn within the context of the market, but it 00:32:11.673 --> 00:32:13.773 is a value of applying templates. 00:32:13.773 --> 00:32:17.637 I, I'm not sure how familiar you are with product development, models 00:32:17.637 --> 00:32:19.437 and stagegate evaluation and those 00:32:19.539 --> 00:32:20.049 Victoria: Yeah, 00:32:20.250 --> 00:32:21.720 Charlie: all that, all that holds true. 00:32:21.810 --> 00:32:25.680 It's just us and for me in particular, gaining that context 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:27.300 around the, the other new markets. 00:32:27.792 --> 00:32:28.122 Victoria: Yeah. 00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:31.590 Charlie: was again, where Jimmy shine through, where he is able to help. 00:32:32.235 --> 00:32:37.605 A team by bringing in folks who had that experience that made it far more a success 00:32:37.605 --> 00:32:39.105 story than a trial and error story. 00:32:39.325 --> 00:32:43.555 Victoria: So, um, Charlie, this has been a really great story and I could continue 00:32:43.555 --> 00:32:45.175 talking to you for a very long time. 00:32:45.175 --> 00:32:50.830 I think, If you were giving advice to a young Charlie Landis or a 00:32:50.830 --> 00:32:55.450 young professional who's looking to have the career success that you've 00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:57.417 had, what advice would you give. 00:32:57.825 --> 00:33:02.205 Charlie: Stephen Kobey publishes the Seven Habits of Successful People, 00:33:02.925 --> 00:33:07.095 I'm not going to recite those, but I would say there are three things that 00:33:07.935 --> 00:33:13.938 a scientist I know I could not have, progressed through my 35 years without. 00:33:14.628 --> 00:33:19.128 I think of them in hindsight, not at this, not at the time, but in hindsight, 00:33:19.128 --> 00:33:22.095 I, I call them for invincible value. 00:33:22.485 --> 00:33:23.475 As a scientist. 00:33:24.315 --> 00:33:28.095 everyone can be Albert Einstein, and you have to find ways 00:33:28.095 --> 00:33:29.565 of utilizing your skills. 00:33:30.097 --> 00:33:30.317 Victoria: Hmm. 00:33:30.495 --> 00:33:33.795 Charlie: so you have to come up with sort of core tenets that describe you 00:33:33.795 --> 00:33:38.805 as a professional and would be you would be characterized as a professional. 00:33:38.805 --> 00:33:39.465 And I the three. 00:33:41.775 --> 00:33:47.055 You certainly have to have expertise in some area of your scientific field 00:33:47.505 --> 00:33:51.915 so that people rely on you for at least that narrow or broad window 00:33:51.915 --> 00:33:53.715 depending on the scope of your study. 00:33:53.962 --> 00:33:57.485 As an expert to help solve problems, you must work with. 00:33:57.545 --> 00:34:00.755 Experts in the field, colleagues in the field, you must read the literature, you 00:34:00.755 --> 00:34:03.395 must do the work and you must see it. 00:34:03.458 --> 00:34:03.998 in use. 00:34:03.998 --> 00:34:06.788 You must have this level of broad expertise. 00:34:06.918 --> 00:34:08.478 And then, and then, must. 00:34:09.243 --> 00:34:15.417 Have a passion that makes you wake up without an alarm clock that makes you 00:34:15.417 --> 00:34:18.627 close a library on a Friday night if you're, I don't know if people still go to 00:34:18.627 --> 00:34:21.627 libraries, but in graduate school I used to get kicked outta the libraries on a 00:34:21.627 --> 00:34:25.667 Friday night reading about the stuff I was hoping to become, employed someday to do. 00:34:26.477 --> 00:34:29.777 And then, uh, you have to hope somebody beeps their horn behind you. 00:34:29.777 --> 00:34:31.967 'cause you're daydreaming at a left turn signal. 00:34:32.549 --> 00:34:32.669 Victoria: Hmm. 00:34:32.897 --> 00:34:33.497 Charlie: Thinking about what. 00:34:36.182 --> 00:34:41.132 Some level of passion that makes your commitment insoluble over time. 00:34:42.002 --> 00:34:45.332 And then the one that I think is missing in American science at the 00:34:45.332 --> 00:34:50.672 moment is have to know how much information you need to succeed. 00:34:51.152 --> 00:34:51.572 And 00:34:51.684 --> 00:34:51.904 Victoria: Hmm. 00:34:52.022 --> 00:34:54.872 Charlie: two examples to help give people that perspective. 00:34:55.472 --> 00:34:57.552 The first one is, when John F. 00:34:57.552 --> 00:35:02.982 Kennedy decided that we were gonna go to the moon, uh, the moon there for. 00:35:03.497 --> 00:35:07.397 Eons waiting on the certainty of mankind to deliver someone to the 00:35:07.397 --> 00:35:09.017 moon and return them safely to earth. 00:35:09.257 --> 00:35:12.527 And that required certainty on everything they do. 00:35:13.337 --> 00:35:17.177 But in the oil field where I grew up, I had a great man who found a 00:35:17.177 --> 00:35:19.007 lot of oil say that, I don't know. 00:35:19.157 --> 00:35:21.107 Do you know about Poodle Bay in Alaska? 00:35:21.107 --> 00:35:23.027 One of the largest oil fields in America? 00:35:23.174 --> 00:35:24.614 Victoria: I, I am familiar with it. 00:35:24.614 --> 00:35:25.634 Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:25.724 --> 00:35:26.144 Yeah. 00:35:26.192 --> 00:35:29.942 Charlie: discovered with a fraction of the information, literally 00:35:30.002 --> 00:35:33.962 about two thirds of the information that was available at the time to 00:35:34.049 --> 00:35:34.339 Victoria: Yeah. 00:35:34.412 --> 00:35:35.102 Charlie: that discovery. 00:35:35.912 --> 00:35:40.568 somewhere in the middle, you have to get comfortable understanding, do I need 00:35:40.568 --> 00:35:48.068 virtual certainty around work for me to make decisions can I live with the. 00:35:49.343 --> 00:35:50.843 that you're gonna fail once in a while. 00:35:50.843 --> 00:35:53.453 You must have this fear of success. 00:35:53.483 --> 00:35:58.283 You must have a, a lower fear of failure than you have for joy, for uh, success. 00:35:59.123 --> 00:36:04.103 so in my world, I've always lived with, I feel like I'm prepared to 00:36:04.103 --> 00:36:07.433 make any decision with at least 80% of the information known to me. 00:36:08.368 --> 00:36:11.423 And that has worked 80% of the time. 00:36:11.753 --> 00:36:17.213 So if you can get comfortable with where you need to be to make decisions for. 00:36:17.370 --> 00:36:21.840 Exploring your entrepreneurial spirit around your ability to succeed or failure. 00:36:22.620 --> 00:36:26.310 a key aspect you, you must be talented at, at something. 00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.120 You must have a drive when others are doubting you to proceed, 00:36:30.810 --> 00:36:32.550 also have to know where you are. 00:36:33.750 --> 00:36:35.987 With what you need to do to make a decision. 00:36:35.987 --> 00:36:39.797 How much information do you need to be comfortable that you can sleep? 00:36:39.797 --> 00:36:44.087 Like Harry Truman did every night, he made a decision, and that is, 00:36:44.087 --> 00:36:48.557 I think, an unspoken secret of how you persist and succeed over 00:36:48.557 --> 00:36:50.147 decades and decades of a career. 00:36:50.419 --> 00:36:50.989 Victoria: I love that. 00:36:51.409 --> 00:36:52.099 Thank you. 00:36:52.279 --> 00:36:52.699 Thank you. 00:36:52.699 --> 00:36:53.479 Thank you, Charlie. 00:36:53.479 --> 00:36:55.999 This has been great conversation. 00:36:59.104 --> 00:36:59.224 I. 00:36:59.224 --> 00:36:59.824 Yeah. 00:36:59.854 --> 00:37:00.544 No, it's been great. 00:37:00.544 --> 00:37:03.454 I've, I've really enjoyed this and I'm looking forward to, sharing 00:37:03.454 --> 00:37:06.604 this conversation with others and the Chemical Show Network. 00:37:06.904 --> 00:37:09.634 So thank you everyone for joining us today. 00:37:09.634 --> 00:37:12.004 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, 00:37:12.112 --> 00:37:12.542 Charlie: Thank you. 00:37:12.544 --> 00:37:14.284 Victoria: we will talk with you again soon.