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Good morning Grid Connections listeners.

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Today we are thrilled to have our
returning guest, John McElroy from Auto

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Line Network, Loren McDonald, the founder
of EV Adoption and Matt Teske of

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Chargeway, joining us for a mid -year
check -in.

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Earlier this year, John, Loren, Matt and I
shared our predictions for the electric

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vehicle industry in 2024.

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Now it's time to see if those predictions
are shaping up for the better or some of

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us were off the mark.

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And I'll give you a hint, I was off the
mark.

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We'll delve into everything from consumer
perceptions of EVs to the automakers who

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are leading the charge in areas where
improvement is still needed.

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Don't miss this insightful discussion with
some of the industry's top experts.

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And if you enjoy this episode, please
share it with at least one other listener

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who you think would appreciate it as well.

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Don't forget to leave us a positive review
on our podcast page too.

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It really does help us engage with more
enthusiasts and bring you the content that

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you enjoy.

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With that, enjoy.

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it's probably still one of our most
popular episodes was back in January where

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we looked at kind of a take at the market
and what we'd seen in 2023 and then gave a

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forward looking statement or so we thought
of 2024.

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And

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how our predictions have come true.

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Maybe some changes we'd make on it and
maybe what we're forecasting for the rest

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of the year.

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in case anyone hasn't seen that episode
yet, you definitely need to watch it.

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But I think I'm just going to let everyone
do a real quick kind of brief about

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themselves.

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If people listening aren't familiar.

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So John, I'm looking at you on the camera.

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So why don't you kick it off first?

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Sure thing, John McElroy.

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Been covering the automotive industry as a
journalist my entire career.

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Goes back many, many decades.

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But now is the best time ever.

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This is the most exciting time in the
industry.

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Thank you.

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Matt, how about you next?

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Matt Teske and I'm the founder and CEO of
Chargeway, been in the auto sector for

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about 25 years and founded Chargeway
officially about seven years ago to

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simplify EV charging for everyone.

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And so boy is that conversation becoming
more relevant.

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Very much so and Loren will let you be
next.

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Yeah, Loren McDonald CEO and founder of EV
adoption.

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We're an EV and EV charging data and
analysis firm.

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Unlike John and Matt, I don't have decades
of background in the auto industry.

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Obviously been following it for my entire
life, but really just kind of joined in in

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the EV industry about 10 years ago.

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Well, 10 years is pretty good.

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I actually just kind of going off everyone
talking.

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I had to write a bio recently, for an
article I was writing and they're like,

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how have you been dealing with electric
vehicles?

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And I realized I have been playing with
electric vehicles for two decades now,

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which, kind of blew my mind.

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and then Loren, I think it's funny too, as
you probably know, I've been talking to

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Chris here and bend, and it's just kind of
funny how not only have I been playing

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with the V's, but we do also can have the.

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software and tech background.

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And then obviously John and Matt, we've
both kind of, become friends and connected

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through, work over the years as well.

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So it's, it's a very, small world, but
also one that just seems to be bringing a

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lot of people, maybe let's just say
automotive nerds together.

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and so I'm excited to be talking about
today.

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Yeah.

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anecdote just to prove that I'm not
totally late to the market is I actually

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applied in 1996 for a public relations
position at US electric car based out here

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in Sebastopol.

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They didn't survive much longer and stuff
like that, but I actually have the

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postcard they sent me back thanking me for
my application for the position.

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So.

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Well, you got me beat then.

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I think I was in the seventh grade at the
time.

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So that is, but.

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arm wrestle about that.

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Yeah.

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But that's cool that you go back that far
in EVs.

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That's impressive.

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I mean, you were in early on.

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I kind of blew my mind.

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And I feel like Matt, you and I probably
met at like a drive organ thing like a

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decade ago.

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And when I was thinking about that, you
know, that was a few years ago, and then

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COVID time and everything else.

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And I started kind of doing the timeline
that I've been doing this crap.

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And I was like, my god, this is it's Yeah,
it's a little scary.

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things in my mind.

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I'm like, yeah, you know, like a year or
two ago, and then you sit back and go,

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wait, there's two digits there.

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That's not good.

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Yeah, so.

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but anyways, let's, let's get back to
these predictions we had earlier in the

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year.

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I'll kick it off with mine.

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I think, mine was that we were going to
see for automakers and especially EVs to

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be more competitive that they would start
offering electric vehicles with more

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range.

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And maybe it's still a little early in the
year.

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I'm going to say that really hasn't come
true.

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it's been more looking at how to just make
the cars cheaper, which is also a good

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thing.

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And just offering more models with LFP
chemistry, which doesn't really surprise

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me at all, but I was kind of hoping to
see, maybe more vehicles can again, that

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high 300 range is an option for a lot of
cars in the market.

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I know if you guys have any other thoughts
or things you want to add to that.

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know, look, Chase, it's obvious.

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You know, you just mentioned it.

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They're trying to bring the cost down
while you put in a long range battery and

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you just destroyed that effort.

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Yeah.

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I was just gonna say, no, agree with John.

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I mean, there's that trade off, right?

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Like Mary Barra will tell you hours on end
that their customers want 300 or more

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miles of range, right?

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They have always seen that.

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Mostly automakers look at that at sort of
the inflection point.

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So most of them have sort of checked that
box, right?

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And so then it's now it's like, well,
the...

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it's $55 ,000, $60 ,000 for our EV.

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Okay, now we've got to work on the cost
side and stuff.

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And the reality is the people that still
say they need 400 or 500 miles of range

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ain't going to buy an EV for another 10
years, right?

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So let's focus it on the people who say, I
can drive my two kids to...

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grammar school two blocks away in my SUV
with 300 miles of range.

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That'll work.

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You know, it's like.

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I got a question for you guys.

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So the EV thing's not happening as fast as
was expected, or regulations really were

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trying to push.

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Biden administration just backed off, said
you can build a lot more hybrids,

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especially PHABs.

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So my question to you guys is, what do you
think?

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Is the American public going to go for
PHABs or even EREPs?

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Well, first of all, I don't like the
differentiation between the irrev and p

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-rev.

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I think it's completely pointless.

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Because functionally speaking,

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mean, from an automaker standpoint, you
get rid of the transmission, you get rid

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of drive axles, you can, you take a lot of
cost out.

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That's true, but it's the use case on the
consumer side for how they fundamentally

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understand how to use it, right?

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So no one understands the engineering.

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But I think that...

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Well, getting back to one thing, it's like
unpacking two things.

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One is, Chase, your comment about the
range aspect of it.

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I think there might be some that argue,
okay, we've got 400 range trucks now, like

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the Silverado or something.

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It's like, well, yeah, if you cram 200
kilowatt hours of battery into something,

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sure, you can get range, right?

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I think that, Loren, to what you were just
saying,

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And kind of this whole conversation and to
that point about the mix of what is the,

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you know, the, the fueling option for
these, for these models.

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I think that the people that are looking
for range of 300 or 400 or whatever it

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might be, and how we feel like the OEMs
have kind of achieved that at the end of

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the day, it's not that they're seeking
range, they're seeking peace of mind.

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That's really what people want.

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And so it's the mix of, do we do that on
vehicle side or we do it on infrastructure

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side and how's the blend of that work as
we bring those things to market?

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So John, to your question about, you know,
what does that look like?

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I think that.

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Again, my two cents on the news that came
out of q1 and into q2 of people that were

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gravitating towards hybrids more so than
electrics I think that we're seeing that

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the public is understanding and
appreciating the reality around fuel cost

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Efficiency and they want that they're also
to the point of cost of a puri V though

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Like I can't afford 60 grand, but maybe a
$30 ,000 hybrid sure so it's a combination

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of factors I think for you're just kind of
the psychology of it and how people are

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appreciating where the efficiency aspect
is going

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As for the P have side of it and for plug
-in hybrid electric vehicles, I don't

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necessarily think that it's going to
create.

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We in the industry feel like those are
lily pad vehicles, kind of like you get

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your hybrid, you get your plug -in hybrid,
you get your pure electric, right?

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And I think that that's true, but the use
case of a plug -in hybrid matters.

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And we've already seen evidence of someone
will lease a plug -in hybrid for $199 a

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month and never plug it in because they
leased it for $199 a month and just opted

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to use gas.

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So.

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I think until people understand how to
actually blend the use case of when they

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charge compared to when they use gas and
how it fits a lifestyle aspect, I feel

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like we're going to see a lot of wasted
engineering go unused.

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Yeah, I would just add that, I'm still,
and I think, I think I sort of went off on

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Ford and GM and stuff last time, but, of
why they just thought they could go from

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ice to be EV with nothing in sort of
between just sort of like, yeah, us, us

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crazy granola eating people out in
California will do that.

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But you know, there's, there's this whole
thing called the South and the Midwest and

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the.

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the planes and stuff where, you know, 80 %
of them drive, you know, Ram Silverado and

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F1 50s and towing boats and stuff like
that.

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And, you know, plug -in hybrids are the
perfect mix for them.

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Like the perfect solution for them until
they're ready for, for B E V.

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And then hybrids, obviously like, you
know, people hate it when I say this, but

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I've been seeing a lot of this now on
LinkedIn is like,

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every car should be a minimum a hybrid
now, right?

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Like, let's just like, you know, let's,
let's go from 20 miles per gallon average,

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or whatever it is, 2224, whatever it is to
35.

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Like, let's just, like, if we want to
actually solve the emissions problem, the

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fastest way there is just like, no cars
with under 20 miles per gallon, like every

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car should have 3035, whatever it minimum,
right?

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Like, it doesn't and Matt will

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Matt could talk about this for hours.

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It requires zero human behavioral change,
right?

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And, you know, we're at 1 % of the 285
cars in the US on the road are fully

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electric, right?

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We're not going to transition this by, you
know, the next five years to get everybody

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to BEV.

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We've got to do the, to use Matt's term,
the lily pad approach.

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We, you know, yeah, yeah.

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I mean, instead of just going, damn, that
guy in North Dakota is not going to buy a

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BEV till 2035.

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Let's get him out of his car truck that's
only getting 14 miles per gallon and get

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him a one that's got 25, right?

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We've, we've almost cut 50 % of emissions,
right?

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By doing that, right.

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And.

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think to your point, I think one of the
things that just the evidence that keeps

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piling up in my opinion from how the auto
sector has responded in a lot of these

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moments is that they've been reactive.

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I just don't get the sense that there is a
lot of proactivity around what is the

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evolution of their vehicle lineup truly
look like to align with emissions focus

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and how we translate that to use cases
based on lifestyle.

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I just feel like it's just been this
reactionary like, wow, Tesla's a trillion

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dollar company now X amount of years ago.

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We got to do something to change people's
perception of who we are as an entity to

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then pump up our image or stock price or
whatever it might look like.

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It just never struck me that there was a
kind of a, a measured moment where they

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sat back and said, okay, how do we
actually compete here while bringing what

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we have been forward to get to where we
want to go to compete with this new.

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00:12:26,886 --> 00:12:28,846
pure electric world.

227
00:12:28,926 --> 00:12:32,286
And in that respect, and maybe that's
what's we're seeing the result of that

228
00:12:32,286 --> 00:12:36,976
now, is the you've got dealers saying,
hey, these things are sitting, you know,

229
00:12:36,976 --> 00:12:39,016
like we're, we got people coming about
hybrids.

230
00:12:39,016 --> 00:12:43,066
And it's that consumer psychology and how
do you approach the market with the right

231
00:12:43,066 --> 00:12:44,106
product mix.

232
00:12:44,106 --> 00:12:47,086
And I to your point, it's like the fact
that they just cut it off at the neck and

233
00:12:47,086 --> 00:12:48,536
said, no, we're plugging hybrids.

234
00:12:48,536 --> 00:12:51,186
We're just going from pure electric, pure
gas, pure electric.

235
00:12:51,186 --> 00:12:53,802
Yeah, there was there was some, I think
some missteps there.

236
00:12:53,802 --> 00:12:53,907
So

237
00:12:53,907 --> 00:12:58,787
John, I don't know if you were at that
event back in Detroit, one of the GM

238
00:12:58,787 --> 00:13:02,897
events where Mary basically is about five
years ago.

239
00:13:02,897 --> 00:13:08,727
I think Mary basically said, we don't, GM
doesn't do very well on the coast.

240
00:13:09,587 --> 00:13:14,407
Like the majority of our market is in the
middle of middle of the country, but the

241
00:13:14,407 --> 00:13:18,147
Chevrolet Bolt is crushing it on the
coast.

242
00:13:18,147 --> 00:13:18,947
Right.

243
00:13:18,947 --> 00:13:20,677
And so then what do they do?

244
00:13:20,677 --> 00:13:22,673
Their strategy is.

245
00:13:23,507 --> 00:13:26,647
let's just make EVs for the coast.

246
00:13:26,647 --> 00:13:30,407
And like, you know, it's like, well, wait
a minute, what if you actually had thought

247
00:13:30,407 --> 00:13:34,247
then, and by the way, at the same time,
they said, we're not going to make hybrids

248
00:13:34,247 --> 00:13:36,087
or probably getting hybrids anymore.

249
00:13:36,087 --> 00:13:36,697
Right.

250
00:13:36,697 --> 00:13:43,387
When the middle of the country was the,
you know, the quasi EV market for hybrids

251
00:13:43,387 --> 00:13:47,687
and, you know, or the electrified market,
which everybody hates that term, but, but

252
00:13:47,687 --> 00:13:50,007
the, the electrified.

253
00:13:50,607 --> 00:13:51,457
Yeah.

254
00:13:51,457 --> 00:13:52,037
Yeah.

255
00:13:52,037 --> 00:13:52,499
But.

256
00:13:52,499 --> 00:13:58,219
But anyway, I just still don't understand
some of the decisions that some of these

257
00:13:58,219 --> 00:13:59,819
companies have made.

258
00:13:59,939 --> 00:14:01,505
But end of rant.

259
00:14:01,505 --> 00:14:02,815
now that that's a great rant.

260
00:14:02,815 --> 00:14:07,305
And I think what's so funny is everything
you guys have said, is so spot on and

261
00:14:07,305 --> 00:14:11,365
jumps so far away from where we started
with the prediction of the battery range.

262
00:14:11,365 --> 00:14:14,365
So I'm just going to say my fart, my quick
two cents on that.

263
00:14:14,365 --> 00:14:21,685
And, yes, I, I, I think exactly what you
guys are saying is the vast majority of

264
00:14:21,765 --> 00:14:24,225
trips do not need that big a range.

265
00:14:24,225 --> 00:14:28,885
I am in kind of a small percentage of a
crazy EV person who will go 800 ,000 miles

266
00:14:28,885 --> 00:14:29,737
a day.

267
00:14:29,789 --> 00:14:33,269
And so unfortunately, but not surprising
that hasn't come through.

268
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:36,409
However, we're starting to see maybe
better charging peaks, better charging

269
00:14:36,409 --> 00:14:40,049
curves to kind of get around that and
address that and still kind of come at

270
00:14:40,049 --> 00:14:41,509
that lower price point.

271
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:45,329
I think the big conversation, what's
really interesting from everything you

272
00:14:45,329 --> 00:14:49,769
guys just said was around the public
perception and the understanding and the

273
00:14:49,769 --> 00:14:51,929
education of the vehicle platforms.

274
00:14:51,929 --> 00:14:56,053
And I just recently had a very.

275
00:14:56,605 --> 00:15:01,545
I don't want to say eyeopening, but it was
like kind of reaffirming and kind of it's

276
00:15:01,545 --> 00:15:04,965
surprising that this hasn't changed more
in the last few years.

277
00:15:04,985 --> 00:15:06,465
I was at a recent dealership.

278
00:15:06,465 --> 00:15:09,595
It was a smaller town, but it's off I five
on the West coast.

279
00:15:09,595 --> 00:15:14,975
So it is a, you would think it's one of
the leaders and I went into a dealership.

280
00:15:14,975 --> 00:15:23,125
I was interested about a certain, product
from a company in Michigan that has a 150,

281
00:15:23,125 --> 00:15:25,923
a two 50, let's just say of these
different things.

282
00:15:25,981 --> 00:15:32,141
And, I could not, I, the people, I
actually was one of the best dealership

283
00:15:32,141 --> 00:15:36,441
experiences I've ever had in my life from
a, person, like they were super

284
00:15:36,441 --> 00:15:40,541
personable, but the instant I showed any
interest in electric thing, they're like,

285
00:15:40,541 --> 00:15:41,421
you don't want to deal with that.

286
00:15:41,421 --> 00:15:42,200
You got it.

287
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,521
And they were, they were trying to just
give me the gas and deals one ASAP

288
00:15:45,521 --> 00:15:49,621
because, because of the incentives and all
this stuff, it just makes the sales

289
00:15:49,621 --> 00:15:52,001
process so much more complicated for them.

290
00:15:52,001 --> 00:15:54,979
And I think it's like, unless the person.

291
00:15:55,197 --> 00:16:00,237
Is coming in specifically for a model to
buy an EV, the sales and dealership model

292
00:16:00,237 --> 00:16:01,737
still does not want to deal with it.

293
00:16:01,737 --> 00:16:06,277
And it was kind of surprising and really
interesting kind of light of the recent

294
00:16:06,277 --> 00:16:11,657
news about Ford kind of pulling back what
dealerships can and cannot sell EVs and

295
00:16:11,657 --> 00:16:14,537
kind of like the different tier models
around that.

296
00:16:14,537 --> 00:16:15,062
But,

297
00:16:15,062 --> 00:16:17,142
I think that's going to be calamitous.

298
00:16:17,142 --> 00:16:21,702
I mean, you've got a dealer network that
is frustrated by the fact that they just

299
00:16:21,702 --> 00:16:25,202
kind of feel like they're getting yanked
back and forth for, okay, if you want to

300
00:16:25,202 --> 00:16:27,642
sell these things, you got to commit to X
dollars and do XYZ.

301
00:16:27,642 --> 00:16:28,152
nevermind.

302
00:16:28,152 --> 00:16:30,322
Now everybody's just going to have open
access to this thing.

303
00:16:30,322 --> 00:16:34,182
So you've got dealers that are going to be
contentious with that, again, that back

304
00:16:34,182 --> 00:16:34,922
and forth.

305
00:16:34,922 --> 00:16:38,202
But then to your point, Chase, you still
have a buying public that is predominantly

306
00:16:38,202 --> 00:16:41,922
walking in, still anticipating and hoping
that the dealer can answer their questions

307
00:16:41,922 --> 00:16:44,230
based on their curiosities and interests.

308
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:48,390
And you combine those two things and what
will that add up to?

309
00:16:48,390 --> 00:16:50,330
Not a lot of EV sales.

310
00:16:50,690 --> 00:16:53,410
Unless someone walks in and says, I'm
getting this car that's electric.

311
00:16:53,410 --> 00:16:55,990
I mean, that's the type of person that
will still walk away from that.

312
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:59,890
And there's a lack of appreciation about
that from, I think, a lot of stakeholders

313
00:16:59,890 --> 00:17:00,619
still.

314
00:17:00,619 --> 00:17:03,743
do you remember what your prediction for
this year was, Matt?

315
00:17:03,936 --> 00:17:08,006
I'm sure it tried to sound smart, but what
did I say?

316
00:17:08,097 --> 00:17:13,537
summarize it, your prediction was that the
hype train of EVs is derailing.

317
00:17:14,077 --> 00:17:18,797
And it still kind of goes back to what you
have said for years around just once

318
00:17:18,797 --> 00:17:23,937
again, the disconnect in product and
positioning of what the consumer wants and

319
00:17:23,937 --> 00:17:24,949
needs for that.

320
00:17:25,158 --> 00:17:28,878
Well, again, I feel like I'm always very
repetitive when I get a chance to speak

321
00:17:28,878 --> 00:17:33,218
about these topics, but I think that I
feel like I'm just kind of like that, that

322
00:17:33,218 --> 00:17:36,818
person who's been screaming a warning for
like seven years, like this is going to

323
00:17:36,818 --> 00:17:37,278
happen.

324
00:17:37,278 --> 00:17:40,298
And so we're finally seeing some of that
happen.

325
00:17:40,298 --> 00:17:43,698
And I think that even the comment that
Marybara made the other day about, you

326
00:17:43,698 --> 00:17:47,398
know, GM's vehicle lineup will be dictated
by customer demand.

327
00:17:47,398 --> 00:17:51,118
And the moment that was uttered, I
thought, there you go.

328
00:17:51,118 --> 00:17:53,766
Like that's, that's a, that's an about
face from the.

329
00:17:53,766 --> 00:17:55,036
What was their tagline?

330
00:17:55,036 --> 00:17:56,486
Everybody electric.

331
00:17:56,486 --> 00:18:00,646
They, I got the Fleetwood Mac song that
played in my head for like, I don't know

332
00:18:00,646 --> 00:18:03,086
how many days on end because of how many
times I saw that ad.

333
00:18:03,086 --> 00:18:09,346
And it's, it's just so, it's so just
disappointing because it is obvious that

334
00:18:09,346 --> 00:18:13,506
it's, and I think Loren, your comment was
like, I mean, I will say exactly what I

335
00:18:13,506 --> 00:18:16,076
think you said was like, Mary, Mary,
whichever way the wind is blowing today,

336
00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:16,886
borrow.

337
00:18:16,886 --> 00:18:19,836
And, and on the comment that I made on
LinkedIn about it.

338
00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:22,630
And I just said, yeah, that translation,
what is she saying?

339
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:25,450
If people aren't walking into demanding
cars around electricity, they're not going

340
00:18:25,450 --> 00:18:26,750
to be pushing EVs that hard.

341
00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:28,550
That's just the truth of it.

342
00:18:28,550 --> 00:18:31,510
And that, so to your point, Chase, if that
was my prediction about the hype train is

343
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:35,210
coming off the rails, I mean, yeah, I
think that, and I think the thing that,

344
00:18:35,210 --> 00:18:39,210
that I was trying to convey with that is
that you can, the whole cliche, if you

345
00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:43,930
don't get a second chance to make a first
impression and we have, I think kind of

346
00:18:43,930 --> 00:18:49,710
exhausted the goodwill of the public on
the hype around the promise of EVs, not

347
00:18:49,710 --> 00:18:52,646
like anybody did it explicitly, but the
industry just kept.

348
00:18:52,646 --> 00:18:55,926
really just going about like this is it,
this is it and everything just kind of

349
00:18:55,926 --> 00:18:59,466
glommed onto the hype, industry included
that started making decisions around

350
00:18:59,466 --> 00:19:02,466
product lineup that oops, they weren't
comprehensive about it.

351
00:19:02,466 --> 00:19:07,286
They're not doing this backtracking and it
causes the public to just take pause and

352
00:19:07,286 --> 00:19:09,786
say, well then what do we believe?

353
00:19:10,166 --> 00:19:13,726
And you would go, you can't, you can't go
away from that.

354
00:19:13,726 --> 00:19:17,476
That's, that's a stink that you have to
figure out how to clean off of you.

355
00:19:17,476 --> 00:19:21,414
And you don't do that just by repeating
the same stuff again.

356
00:19:21,414 --> 00:19:24,914
So I think that that's what I was getting
at with that prediction.

357
00:19:24,914 --> 00:19:28,774
So I don't like the idea that I might've
been somewhat right, but we have to clean

358
00:19:28,774 --> 00:19:29,573
it up as an industry.

359
00:19:29,573 --> 00:19:31,069
We've got to be more thoughtful around
this.

360
00:19:31,069 --> 00:19:31,839
No, for sure.

361
00:19:31,839 --> 00:19:35,029
I think a big part of essentially what it
kind of boils down to what you're saying

362
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:40,469
is these companies having a long, cohesive
long -term strategy and plan for all of

363
00:19:40,469 --> 00:19:44,289
their vehicles, whether it be electric or
not, or as they say, electrified for the

364
00:19:44,289 --> 00:19:45,329
others as well.

365
00:19:45,329 --> 00:19:50,349
And I think it is interesting because a
lot of the pro EV people just in general

366
00:19:50,349 --> 00:19:53,829
lately have been saying, there's so many
headlines about electric vehicle sales,

367
00:19:53,829 --> 00:19:54,839
not being that gray.

368
00:19:54,839 --> 00:19:58,649
Well, they are technically still growing
and it's, it's not that we're talking

369
00:19:58,649 --> 00:19:59,669
about that.

370
00:19:59,669 --> 00:20:00,989
It's just that.

371
00:20:00,989 --> 00:20:03,409
they're not growing as fast as they should
be.

372
00:20:03,409 --> 00:20:07,069
And with these kinds of missteps and not
having a full cohesive plan, it does kind

373
00:20:07,069 --> 00:20:11,622
of open up the door to longer term issues
to really see that space take off.

374
00:20:11,622 --> 00:20:13,082
Yeah, it's like put your hockey sticks
away.

375
00:20:13,082 --> 00:20:15,992
Like we have to be more thoughtful around
that.

376
00:20:15,992 --> 00:20:18,043
I will say, I mean, yeah.

377
00:20:18,043 --> 00:20:19,703
you used an interesting word.

378
00:20:19,703 --> 00:20:24,123
They're, they're not the EV sales are not
growing as fast as they should be.

379
00:20:24,123 --> 00:20:24,223
Right.

380
00:20:24,223 --> 00:20:25,035
Like.

381
00:20:26,611 --> 00:20:28,851
define the word should, right?

382
00:20:28,851 --> 00:20:31,311
Like is it Matt's comment about the hockey
stick?

383
00:20:31,311 --> 00:20:35,531
Is it to save the planet from global
warming or is it what?

384
00:20:36,317 --> 00:20:38,939
That's actually something I wanted to ask
you guys a little.

385
00:20:38,939 --> 00:20:39,469
U .S.

386
00:20:39,469 --> 00:20:42,441
market would likely allow.

387
00:20:42,621 --> 00:20:43,881
You know, no, exactly.

388
00:20:43,881 --> 00:20:51,141
So to go on a little bit of a, I guess to,
to derail the conversation a bit, but, I

389
00:20:51,141 --> 00:20:53,781
don't know now I'm, now I'm just thinking
train analogies, all the rest of this

390
00:20:53,781 --> 00:20:58,840
conversation, unfortunately, but, your,
what you're talking about is really spot

391
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:04,061
on about how this kind of perception and
positioning in the market of electric

392
00:21:04,061 --> 00:21:04,841
vehicles has changed.

393
00:21:04,841 --> 00:21:08,221
Like you think back to the Nissan Leaf, I
don't think it was a great campaign, but

394
00:21:08,221 --> 00:21:10,421
like when they first launched, they showed
like polar bears.

395
00:21:10,421 --> 00:21:12,637
And I know you've even talked about this a
bit, Sean.

396
00:21:12,637 --> 00:21:16,797
On, auto line about like, the environment
stuff, which I think people like it as a

397
00:21:16,797 --> 00:21:18,737
perk, but it's not really a selling
feature.

398
00:21:18,737 --> 00:21:22,667
And now like you look at Rivian, just
refreshed a lot of their vehicles.

399
00:21:22,667 --> 00:21:23,367
What did they sell?

400
00:21:23,367 --> 00:21:25,967
They sold nothing about its environmental
credibility.

401
00:21:25,967 --> 00:21:29,837
If anything, maybe it's not because it is
such a big truck, but they sold the hell

402
00:21:29,837 --> 00:21:33,547
out of performance and the positioning of
that and the positioning of lifestyle.

403
00:21:33,547 --> 00:21:39,757
And I think that's kind of been where a
lot of the startups or kind of traditional

404
00:21:39,757 --> 00:21:41,693
startups have succeeded was.

405
00:21:41,693 --> 00:21:46,113
Say yes, it can do that, but position the
advantages of coming on electric platform

406
00:21:46,113 --> 00:21:46,973
first.

407
00:21:46,973 --> 00:21:51,253
And then some of these more traditional
like legacy auto idioms, going back to

408
00:21:51,253 --> 00:21:53,953
exactly what you're talking about, like,
stock values for those companies is

409
00:21:53,953 --> 00:21:54,733
skyrocketing.

410
00:21:54,733 --> 00:21:55,853
Let's get on that.

411
00:21:55,853 --> 00:21:59,673
And then kind of just, I wouldn't say
throw something against the wall and see

412
00:21:59,673 --> 00:22:05,313
what sticks, but they're, they're just
didn't seem to be a very pragmatic or

413
00:22:05,313 --> 00:22:10,279
multifaceted solution to kind of moving
the battleship of these companies.

414
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:13,750
Well, there's a lot to unpack with that.

415
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:18,690
I think the comment I made recently about
how the US EV auto market has started to

416
00:22:18,690 --> 00:22:24,270
kind of feel, it's akin to a moment in the
high school classroom where the smart kid

417
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:29,210
was going to pass the test and everyone
else copied off the smart kid to pass the

418
00:22:29,210 --> 00:22:29,850
test.

419
00:22:29,850 --> 00:22:33,330
And then when it came time to apply your
knowledge about actually using that

420
00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:37,190
knowledge in the real world, well, the
people that copied didn't get that far.

421
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:38,610
Whereas the smart kid kept going.

422
00:22:38,610 --> 00:22:41,900
I mean, this is a, again, the analogy
Tesla, everyone else kind of thing.

423
00:22:41,970 --> 00:22:45,330
we can also argue how that feels around
where Tesla's at too, and how they're

424
00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:47,840
derailing in some ways, I think in the ED
conversation.

425
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:53,989
But I think that there's, there's so much
to point to that.

426
00:22:54,350 --> 00:22:58,690
To point about pragmatism and like it
just, there was not a, to me, there was

427
00:22:58,690 --> 00:23:03,640
not a sense of kind of a humility around
like, we don't do this yet.

428
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,638
We really have to figure out how to do it.

429
00:23:05,638 --> 00:23:09,938
But then how many times are decisions made
in American business and in capitalism

430
00:23:09,938 --> 00:23:12,658
that are purely based around, we're a
business.

431
00:23:12,658 --> 00:23:16,158
Like how do we maintain relevance from a
financial perspective to show like to show

432
00:23:16,158 --> 00:23:17,138
that we're competitive?

433
00:23:17,138 --> 00:23:20,268
And how often is that thought of in short
term cycles?

434
00:23:20,268 --> 00:23:22,038
The answer is quite often, really.

435
00:23:22,038 --> 00:23:24,220
It's the bang for the buck type thing.

436
00:23:24,293 --> 00:23:24,523
sure.

437
00:23:24,523 --> 00:23:27,853
But John, I want to hear your perspective
because you are in the heart of Michigan.

438
00:23:27,853 --> 00:23:33,533
It's just a bunch of us West coast, elites
just kind of blathering and saying

439
00:23:33,533 --> 00:23:34,293
perspective.

440
00:23:34,293 --> 00:23:35,413
What's, what's, what's the truth?

441
00:23:35,413 --> 00:23:36,993
You're in the heart of the.

442
00:23:37,053 --> 00:23:37,775
Yeah.

443
00:23:37,775 --> 00:23:42,005
Last year, Americans bought 1 .1 million
electric vehicles.

444
00:23:42,005 --> 00:23:46,515
When you tell the anti -EV people that,
they're stunned, because they're running

445
00:23:46,515 --> 00:23:48,235
around saying, nobody wants them.

446
00:23:48,235 --> 00:23:52,605
And then I tell them, well, 1 .1 million
Americans bought them last year.

447
00:23:52,605 --> 00:23:55,075
That's not chopped liver.

448
00:23:55,115 --> 00:23:57,395
And this year, the...

449
00:23:57,395 --> 00:24:02,615
the prognosticators that I'm talking to,
the forecasters, see EV sales coming in

450
00:24:02,615 --> 00:24:04,035
around 1 .6 million.

451
00:24:04,035 --> 00:24:06,015
That's pretty healthy growth.

452
00:24:06,215 --> 00:24:09,535
In fact, that's far better than any other
thing.

453
00:24:09,535 --> 00:24:10,455
Pardon?

454
00:24:11,175 --> 00:24:11,995
No, we're not.

455
00:24:11,995 --> 00:24:12,715
We're not.

456
00:24:12,715 --> 00:24:15,155
In fact, they expect a very strong second
half.

457
00:24:15,155 --> 00:24:17,485
Look, GM's coming out with what, four or
five models?

458
00:24:17,485 --> 00:24:20,715
Honda's accurate just getting into the
market.

459
00:24:20,715 --> 00:24:22,035
You know, Rivian just re -fronted.

460
00:24:22,035 --> 00:24:24,915
You know, there's gonna be a backloaded.

461
00:24:24,915 --> 00:24:28,715
second half to the year, Stellantis is
coming in with a bunch of stuff.

462
00:24:28,715 --> 00:24:33,115
So that's how they think we're probably
going to end up at 10 % market share.

463
00:24:33,115 --> 00:24:35,345
They think the SAR is going to be 1 .6
million.

464
00:24:35,345 --> 00:24:39,335
So that's how you get to your 1 .6 million
EVs.

465
00:24:39,335 --> 00:24:43,735
That's pretty healthy growth that they're
forecasting next year, it'll go to two and

466
00:24:43,735 --> 00:24:44,835
a half million.

467
00:24:44,835 --> 00:24:50,095
So I mean, it's like the growth is going
to come.

468
00:24:50,095 --> 00:24:53,287
Now, having said that, pardon?

469
00:24:53,287 --> 00:24:54,973
Nobody wants him, though.

470
00:24:54,973 --> 00:24:56,003
yeah, nobody wants them.

471
00:24:56,003 --> 00:24:56,183
Right.

472
00:24:56,183 --> 00:24:57,093
Well, that's going to change.

473
00:24:57,093 --> 00:25:02,603
You guys know, as we get second gen
platform, second gen batteries, more and

474
00:25:02,603 --> 00:25:05,563
more and more public charging, you know,
give it three years.

475
00:25:05,563 --> 00:25:08,303
That's when I think things are really
starting to take off.

476
00:25:08,303 --> 00:25:10,263
But let's backtrack to right now today.

477
00:25:10,263 --> 00:25:15,263
One point six million, I'm guessing in the
US that's what's at 60 percent of that's

478
00:25:15,263 --> 00:25:15,723
Tesla.

479
00:25:15,723 --> 00:25:16,443
Right.

480
00:25:16,443 --> 00:25:20,883
So that means everybody else is everybody
else is.

481
00:25:20,883 --> 00:25:26,123
fighting over roughly half the market,
maybe a little over half the market.

482
00:25:26,323 --> 00:25:33,173
And so you got at what, like seven, eight
major manufacturers vying for that.

483
00:25:33,173 --> 00:25:38,023
And if you start breaking it down into
segments of the market and you take like

484
00:25:38,023 --> 00:25:44,883
two row crossovers, biggest segment, the
hottest thing out there, and you look at

485
00:25:44,883 --> 00:25:50,675
its potential market share this year, it's
like 250 ,000 units.

486
00:25:50,675 --> 00:25:55,355
So you got Tesla and everybody else
fighting over 250 ,000 units and nobody

487
00:25:55,355 --> 00:25:57,035
can make money in the segment.

488
00:25:57,035 --> 00:26:02,675
So there's the problem is that, you know,
remember this whole push to EV, it's not

489
00:26:02,675 --> 00:26:05,855
driven by business, it's driven by
government regulation.

490
00:26:05,855 --> 00:26:13,495
Thou shalt reach, you know, what the EPA
wanted was 67 % of new car sales in 2032

491
00:26:13,495 --> 00:26:15,285
being EVs.

492
00:26:15,285 --> 00:26:17,925
And it's just not gonna happen.

493
00:26:17,925 --> 00:26:18,803
I mean, the...

494
00:26:18,803 --> 00:26:20,133
The public's not ready for it.

495
00:26:20,133 --> 00:26:21,683
They're not there yet.

496
00:26:21,983 --> 00:26:25,103
So that's the dilemma that the industry is
in right now.

497
00:26:25,103 --> 00:26:28,803
And this is, by the way, too, why the
Biden administration just backed off and

498
00:26:28,803 --> 00:26:32,963
allowed a lot more hybrids to be sold
between now and 2032.

499
00:26:32,963 --> 00:26:35,543
But that's the big struggle in the
industry.

500
00:26:35,543 --> 00:26:40,723
They invested a couple of years ago when
it looked like EV sales were going to

501
00:26:40,723 --> 00:26:41,213
explode.

502
00:26:41,213 --> 00:26:45,563
They thought we're going to fast track
right behind Tesla and we'll be on their

503
00:26:45,563 --> 00:26:46,223
coattails.

504
00:26:46,223 --> 00:26:48,403
And as the market expands, we'll...

505
00:26:48,403 --> 00:26:49,173
will be great.

506
00:26:49,173 --> 00:26:54,463
Well, the market didn't expand, but they
invested for that expansion.

507
00:26:54,463 --> 00:26:56,163
So that's their big problem right now.

508
00:26:56,163 --> 00:27:00,683
They've over invested for what the actual
demand is, and they're losing their shirt

509
00:27:00,683 --> 00:27:01,343
on it.

510
00:27:01,343 --> 00:27:04,983
You know, Ford's the only one that
publishes the numbers, and everybody jumps

511
00:27:04,983 --> 00:27:08,095
on Ford's back, but I guarantee you
they're all losing.

512
00:27:09,491 --> 00:27:10,321
chase a deer.

513
00:27:10,321 --> 00:27:12,819
those 200 kilowatt hour Silverados.

514
00:27:12,819 --> 00:27:13,459
Yeah.

515
00:27:13,459 --> 00:27:13,819
Yeah.

516
00:27:13,819 --> 00:27:16,878
Just, I just wanted to follow up on
something that John said that I think is

517
00:27:16,878 --> 00:27:17,559
really important.

518
00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:22,539
And I don't know if I use this analogy on
the, on the last one, but I used it at a

519
00:27:22,539 --> 00:27:24,779
couple of conferences and things like
that.

520
00:27:24,779 --> 00:27:28,199
And the, you know, part of what John's
talking about is, you know, a couple of

521
00:27:28,199 --> 00:27:34,319
years ago, the, the EV sales, what I call
the EV sales pizza pie, let's say it was a

522
00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:36,171
12 inch pizza, right?

523
00:27:36,211 --> 00:27:39,921
And you sliced it up by like, you know, 40
slices, right?

524
00:27:39,921 --> 00:27:43,371
With Tesla getting, you know, 60, 70 % of
that.

525
00:27:43,461 --> 00:27:48,631
Well, roll forward now, there's like 90
slices of pizza, right?

526
00:27:48,631 --> 00:27:50,451
And the pizzas, yeah, it grew.

527
00:27:50,451 --> 00:27:54,251
It's now an 18 inch pizza, right?

528
00:27:54,251 --> 00:27:59,491
But if you're, you know, Audi and, you
know, four years ago, you had in a

529
00:27:59,491 --> 00:28:02,161
segment, you had two or three other
competitors.

530
00:28:02,161 --> 00:28:05,683
Well, now you have eight other competitors
in that same segment.

531
00:28:05,683 --> 00:28:12,323
So, you know, but the segment isn't
growing six X or four X or whatever.

532
00:28:12,323 --> 00:28:14,503
It's growing two X or something like that.

533
00:28:14,503 --> 00:28:14,643
Right.

534
00:28:14,643 --> 00:28:16,683
So to John's point, I think it's a really
important point.

535
00:28:16,683 --> 00:28:21,443
Like the market is growing, but we have
twice as many EV models.

536
00:28:21,443 --> 00:28:27,303
And so when you break it down at the model
or segment level, like it's, it's hard for

537
00:28:27,303 --> 00:28:30,313
anybody to have significant growth, right.

538
00:28:30,313 --> 00:28:32,633
Because there's just so many more consumer
options.

539
00:28:32,633 --> 00:28:33,757
What's that Matt?

540
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:36,670
differentiation that we're identifying
here?

541
00:28:36,670 --> 00:28:42,030
It's a great point, Loren, because what it
really identifies is we're getting back to

542
00:28:42,030 --> 00:28:47,050
that brass tacks approach for each brand
of what's the cache of their brand, their

543
00:28:47,050 --> 00:28:51,330
design, their methodologies behind why you
would want to gravitate to that model

544
00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:52,400
vehicle, right?

545
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,450
It's kind of traditional automotive
marketing in that respect, because we're

546
00:28:55,450 --> 00:28:58,086
all kind of seeing it sort of get vanilla
around.

547
00:28:58,086 --> 00:29:01,906
what we're seeing as an offering and then
spreading things out a lot.

548
00:29:01,906 --> 00:29:05,776
And so I think to me, kind of high level,
it's like, what are the three factors?

549
00:29:05,776 --> 00:29:09,786
It's like, well, we've got horrendous
interest rates still, for the most part.

550
00:29:09,786 --> 00:29:14,146
We have a lack of ability for people to
get into a vehicle that might be electric,

551
00:29:14,146 --> 00:29:19,406
that's even remotely cost, you know, like
at a cost level where it's like, this is

552
00:29:19,406 --> 00:29:23,626
practical because you take $60 ,000 and
you try to, you know, finance that over

553
00:29:23,626 --> 00:29:26,246
six, five, six, seven years at seven,
eight percent.

554
00:29:26,246 --> 00:29:27,558
That's a nightmare.

555
00:29:27,558 --> 00:29:30,648
You know, so that's why again, we're
hearing artists saying that the, you know,

556
00:29:30,648 --> 00:29:33,418
okay, use the V markets getting a little
bit more attention now because people that

557
00:29:33,418 --> 00:29:36,698
might be attracted to it, they're saying,
well, okay, I'll buy something that was on

558
00:29:36,698 --> 00:29:37,538
a three year lease.

559
00:29:37,538 --> 00:29:40,738
That's three years old, but I can get into
that for 30 K or something.

560
00:29:40,738 --> 00:29:44,168
I think that's great to see, but I think
it's indicative of what people are saying,

561
00:29:44,168 --> 00:29:47,198
saying to the market, which is, okay,
yeah, we do want electric cars, but we

562
00:29:47,198 --> 00:29:48,318
don't want $60 ,000 ones.

563
00:29:48,318 --> 00:29:49,838
We want $25 ,000 ones.

564
00:29:49,838 --> 00:29:53,978
And also, but they, they can't buy, you
know, fight the interest rates.

565
00:29:53,978 --> 00:29:57,158
And then the last element being, I just
always come back to it is.

566
00:29:57,158 --> 00:30:00,418
Why would the general public rush in to
buy cars that run on fuel they don't

567
00:30:00,418 --> 00:30:01,578
understand?

568
00:30:01,838 --> 00:30:05,238
Because if that's the true differentiator
for the user experience, interest rate,

569
00:30:05,238 --> 00:30:08,658
cost, and peace of mind, there you go.

570
00:30:08,658 --> 00:30:11,898
And we just don't have a good puzzle for
that right now, aside maybe outside of, I

571
00:30:11,898 --> 00:30:16,038
mean, Tesla still has it, I think, in a
way, but Elon is finding ways to just kind

572
00:30:16,038 --> 00:30:18,278
of throw an M80 into that toilet.

573
00:30:18,458 --> 00:30:18,745
So.

574
00:30:18,745 --> 00:30:23,165
Well, I think, well, yeah, that's a whole
nother, that could be another podcast,

575
00:30:23,165 --> 00:30:28,765
but, I think kind of going back to your
analogy real quick, Loren though, about

576
00:30:28,765 --> 00:30:32,525
the pizza got slightly bigger by instead
of feeding 10 people, you're feeding a

577
00:30:32,525 --> 00:30:34,405
small community center or something.

578
00:30:34,405 --> 00:30:41,825
The, the difference also is I think with
this evolution to electric vehicles, there

579
00:30:41,825 --> 00:30:46,305
is, and also kind of ties in Matt's
comment about kind of like copying other

580
00:30:46,305 --> 00:30:48,821
people's homework is, is the fact that.

581
00:30:48,893 --> 00:30:52,393
So many of these companies are going to
like the kind of the clean sheet electric

582
00:30:52,393 --> 00:30:54,193
vehicle design.

583
00:30:54,193 --> 00:30:58,633
And when you do the skateboard design,
sure, you get great lower center of

584
00:30:58,633 --> 00:30:59,213
gravity.

585
00:30:59,213 --> 00:31:03,293
But in a lot of ways, like, especially if
you're like a traditional brand, like

586
00:31:03,293 --> 00:31:07,873
Porsche or Audi, you start looking at some
of their electric vehicle products.

587
00:31:07,873 --> 00:31:13,633
And not only are you kind of confined to a
more specific body style that you're

588
00:31:13,633 --> 00:31:16,203
working with, well, you're sharing that
platform with.

589
00:31:16,743 --> 00:31:17,993
Audi you're sharing with all these.

590
00:31:17,993 --> 00:31:22,233
So not only are you fighting against your
own like group, the, the ability for

591
00:31:22,233 --> 00:31:27,853
different, differentiation is now, I think
in a lot of ways, a lot harder to do with

592
00:31:27,853 --> 00:31:31,743
the electric vehicle technology and to
like make a really sporty EV.

593
00:31:31,743 --> 00:31:36,733
And like one of the big things Porsche
said was like, well we put our, we use the

594
00:31:36,733 --> 00:31:37,893
same motor as Audi.

595
00:31:37,893 --> 00:31:38,083
Sure.

596
00:31:38,083 --> 00:31:39,393
But we put it behind the axle.

597
00:31:39,393 --> 00:31:43,522
So now it's more like a Porsche and like,
yeah, maybe, but I don't.

598
00:31:43,522 --> 00:31:46,122
PR talking point at some point.

599
00:31:46,122 --> 00:31:47,330
Wow.

600
00:31:47,521 --> 00:31:51,561
and so I think that's like just another
example of like yeah, Porsche could use

601
00:31:51,561 --> 00:31:53,691
like yeah We've got our boxer six in the
bag.

602
00:31:53,691 --> 00:31:55,361
You know what we do.

603
00:31:55,361 --> 00:32:01,221
Audi's got their Inline five there's like
a lot more differentiation, but that I

604
00:32:01,221 --> 00:32:05,161
think that's just been a challenge I think
for the last decade and a half is the

605
00:32:05,161 --> 00:32:10,421
obviously the badge engineering but also
now going into the electric realm where

606
00:32:10,421 --> 00:32:13,533
it's new for everyone, but they also have
to share components and then

607
00:32:13,533 --> 00:32:20,373
a lot of ways, the starting point doesn't
allow for, I mean, the Porsche good or bad

608
00:32:20,373 --> 00:32:23,973
kind of went with the two, geared
transmission, for example.

609
00:32:23,973 --> 00:32:26,633
And that's kind of been a thing.

610
00:32:26,633 --> 00:32:30,213
Like trying to differentiate doesn't
really reward in the same ways that it has

611
00:32:30,213 --> 00:32:34,153
traditionally for, I think a lot of these
brands versus like a big thing, especially

612
00:32:34,153 --> 00:32:37,773
when you look at the international markets
domestic and domestically and

613
00:32:37,773 --> 00:32:42,133
generationally, like the software level is
kind of like how the person lives with the

614
00:32:42,133 --> 00:32:43,261
vehicle day to day.

615
00:32:43,261 --> 00:32:47,280
There's just so many of these different
variables that have really made it so much

616
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,163
harder to like stand out and.

617
00:32:50,163 --> 00:32:56,543
I, I would say like, nobody cares about
anything that you just talked about.

618
00:32:56,543 --> 00:33:02,363
Like no average consumer car geeks care
about that stuff, but you know what people

619
00:33:02,363 --> 00:33:03,743
care about?

620
00:33:04,683 --> 00:33:08,923
The key V key, Kea, EV nine.

621
00:33:08,983 --> 00:33:15,523
It's a three row SUV that, that looks
different.

622
00:33:15,523 --> 00:33:16,483
Awesome.

623
00:33:16,483 --> 00:33:18,657
And nobody cares that it's electric.

624
00:33:18,657 --> 00:33:20,057
I'll say it looks different.

625
00:33:20,057 --> 00:33:21,457
I'll give you that.

626
00:33:21,457 --> 00:33:22,677
Yeah.

627
00:33:22,697 --> 00:33:24,730
But I get what you're saying.

628
00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:27,430
yeah, what are they shopping for?

629
00:33:27,810 --> 00:33:28,531
Yeah.

630
00:33:28,531 --> 00:33:31,171
electric Tahoe?

631
00:33:31,171 --> 00:33:33,051
You know, like, right?

632
00:33:33,051 --> 00:33:33,357
Like...

633
00:33:33,357 --> 00:33:35,057
this is exactly what I'm talking about
though.

634
00:33:35,057 --> 00:33:36,977
Kia doesn't really have to have this in
fighting.

635
00:33:36,977 --> 00:33:39,397
Like sure, they've got the high -end and a
little bit of the Genesis thing, but

636
00:33:39,397 --> 00:33:43,297
they've gone all in on EVs and they've
actually figured a pretty good strategy of

637
00:33:43,297 --> 00:33:44,917
how to differentiate.

638
00:33:44,917 --> 00:33:49,137
Whereas like Audi shares stuff with, and
then like even looking at GM, they've even

639
00:33:49,137 --> 00:33:52,477
struggled between like, how do you
differentiate the Silverado and the

640
00:33:52,477 --> 00:33:53,437
Denali?

641
00:33:53,437 --> 00:33:58,797
There's just, I think that example you're
talking about from what is important to

642
00:33:58,797 --> 00:34:02,781
the end user from a product standpoint is
spot on.

643
00:34:02,781 --> 00:34:07,581
The actual backside of it doesn't make,
doesn't really matter to the end consumer,

644
00:34:07,581 --> 00:34:12,321
but the actual manufacturers have
struggled to even get to the point to

645
00:34:12,321 --> 00:34:16,121
clearly build a product in their own,
having their own freedom to build that

646
00:34:16,121 --> 00:34:19,861
product, to get to the consumer that
really has that appeal like the EV nine or

647
00:34:19,861 --> 00:34:20,781
a few others do.

648
00:34:20,781 --> 00:34:24,361
And I know I don't like the looks of it,
but it's like spot on the market for what

649
00:34:24,361 --> 00:34:25,583
the market wants.

650
00:34:25,583 --> 00:34:30,763
I mean, out, out here where I am in the,
San Francisco Bay area suburbs.

651
00:34:30,763 --> 00:34:36,783
I mean, I am seeing like the Rivian R1S
everywhere now and the key of it.

652
00:34:36,783 --> 00:34:42,823
Like it's like, well, hello, that's what,
you know, soccer moms drive in the

653
00:34:42,823 --> 00:34:45,043
suburbs, three row SUVs.

654
00:34:45,043 --> 00:34:47,323
And so guess what they're, they're buying.

655
00:34:47,323 --> 00:34:53,203
My point is, is nobody cares about two
speed transmissions or like any of that

656
00:34:53,203 --> 00:34:53,743
stuff.

657
00:34:53,743 --> 00:34:54,347
Like.

658
00:34:54,675 --> 00:35:02,505
Like I have a, my best buddy has done very
well in his career, three IPOs, et cetera.

659
00:35:02,505 --> 00:35:04,595
He could buy any car he wanted.

660
00:35:04,595 --> 00:35:10,375
A couple months ago, he goes, wow, that
Kia EV9, like, you know, this is a guy

661
00:35:10,375 --> 00:35:14,795
that, you know, drives, you know, Land
Rovers and Porsches and stuff like that.

662
00:35:14,795 --> 00:35:18,771
And he was like totally stoked by it
because he...

663
00:35:18,771 --> 00:35:24,691
He always has a big SUV like never in a,
in my life would I've expected him to

664
00:35:24,691 --> 00:35:28,471
utter the three letters of K I a right.

665
00:35:28,531 --> 00:35:29,893
And, and if you want.

666
00:35:29,893 --> 00:35:32,813
this, this, I told, once again, I think
we're in agreement.

667
00:35:32,813 --> 00:35:36,033
We're just talking about from two
different perspectives and what Kia like,

668
00:35:36,033 --> 00:35:39,913
like I said, I don't like the looks of the
Kia, but it's like outside of what Tesla

669
00:35:39,913 --> 00:35:43,233
do with the Cybertruck, Kia's kind of, Kia
and Hyundai have been the only brands like

670
00:35:43,233 --> 00:35:48,513
making really kind of radical looking cars
that not only stand out to the consumer,

671
00:35:48,513 --> 00:35:52,773
but they stand out and then also deliver
like in the market, what people want, like

672
00:35:52,773 --> 00:35:56,326
going straight to the EV nine and having a
big SUV.

673
00:35:56,326 --> 00:36:01,486
What I hear you saying, Chase, is that the
way that auto brands have differentiated

674
00:36:01,486 --> 00:36:07,506
themselves over the years and effectively,
through the engineering set the stage for

675
00:36:07,506 --> 00:36:12,526
who they were as a brand, we have, through
electrification, there's a great deal of

676
00:36:12,526 --> 00:36:14,806
complexity that goes on with mechanical
engineering.

677
00:36:14,886 --> 00:36:20,246
Think about the different pathways you can
take, how you design an engine.

678
00:36:20,246 --> 00:36:23,426
It can be naturally aspirated, it can be
supercharged, it can be turboed, it could

679
00:36:23,426 --> 00:36:23,966
be all the...

680
00:36:23,966 --> 00:36:24,581
It could be...

681
00:36:24,581 --> 00:36:25,671
What is the displacement of it?

682
00:36:25,671 --> 00:36:26,421
Is it rotary?

683
00:36:26,421 --> 00:36:31,241
Is, I mean, just, there's this very
interesting and very complex catalog of

684
00:36:31,241 --> 00:36:35,401
how automakers have taken mechanical
engineering and differentiated themselves

685
00:36:35,401 --> 00:36:39,061
and leveraged oil and gas to make that
possible.

686
00:36:39,061 --> 00:36:41,881
And then they've applied that to their
branding.

687
00:36:41,881 --> 00:36:45,441
And then to your point about design
language and what is, what does a brand

688
00:36:45,441 --> 00:36:47,591
represent at the aesthetic side of it?

689
00:36:47,591 --> 00:36:53,181
It's been a very complex blend of product
development for a very long time that has

690
00:36:53,181 --> 00:36:54,470
created a.

691
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:58,890
to in my opinion an emotional product that
people buy into and it becomes a part of

692
00:36:58,890 --> 00:37:04,270
their identity and through electrification
we have removed as we talk about so often

693
00:37:04,270 --> 00:37:09,690
a great deal of that complexity and wow
the maintenance is reduced by so much but

694
00:37:09,690 --> 00:37:13,740
then these engineers and these auto brands
are saying yeah, yeah, that's that's true.

695
00:37:13,740 --> 00:37:14,490
That's great.

696
00:37:14,490 --> 00:37:16,940
So What are we now?

697
00:37:16,940 --> 00:37:22,330
Because now we're all sourcing prismatic
cells or cylindrical cells from Panasonic

698
00:37:22,330 --> 00:37:22,918
or

699
00:37:22,918 --> 00:37:26,738
or whoever it might be, okay, fine, we
have an electric motor.

700
00:37:26,738 --> 00:37:28,228
What's the differentiation of that?

701
00:37:28,228 --> 00:37:32,818
Well, it's a rotor and a stator and ours
is behind the axle.

702
00:37:32,865 --> 00:37:37,035
100 % on, like, it's one thing for Chevy
to say, yeah, we got a big block V8.

703
00:37:37,035 --> 00:37:41,725
Well, how do you sell prismatic cells with
a permanent magnet motor?

704
00:37:42,425 --> 00:37:43,545
Right.

705
00:37:43,545 --> 00:37:44,382
Yeah.

706
00:37:44,382 --> 00:37:47,582
but the gear heads are like, I mean, V8
sounds fun to some people.

707
00:37:47,582 --> 00:37:48,402
It's got a hemi.

708
00:37:48,402 --> 00:37:51,562
I mean, like however you want to go about
it is, you know, it's been fun for years,

709
00:37:51,562 --> 00:37:55,202
but to Loren's point, it's like, it just,
it kind of just goes in one ear and out

710
00:37:55,202 --> 00:37:57,602
the other for some people because then
they buy it for that.

711
00:37:57,622 --> 00:37:58,492
Yeah.

712
00:37:58,492 --> 00:38:00,902
But, but it's still been a marketing
talking point.

713
00:38:00,902 --> 00:38:01,611
Yeah.

714
00:38:01,611 --> 00:38:04,071
like myself, we care about that stuff.

715
00:38:04,071 --> 00:38:08,431
But the vast majority of Americans really
don't even know what displacement engine

716
00:38:08,431 --> 00:38:08,941
they have.

717
00:38:08,941 --> 00:38:11,631
They have no clue what transmission they
have.

718
00:38:11,631 --> 00:38:14,771
Some people don't even know if they have
front -driver, rear -drive.

719
00:38:14,771 --> 00:38:16,371
So that's the reality.

720
00:38:16,371 --> 00:38:16,921
So what...

721
00:38:16,921 --> 00:38:18,781
people think Teslas are hybrids.

722
00:38:18,781 --> 00:38:21,201
So it's like, yeah.

723
00:38:21,761 --> 00:38:23,145
Right.

724
00:38:24,171 --> 00:38:25,991
hugely important.

725
00:38:26,011 --> 00:38:30,131
Increasingly now, the whole user
interface, how easy it, you know, can you

726
00:38:30,131 --> 00:38:32,891
bring your digital world seamlessly into
your car with you?

727
00:38:32,891 --> 00:38:34,511
How does it work with you?

728
00:38:34,511 --> 00:38:37,561
And how complicated or how simple is it?

729
00:38:37,561 --> 00:38:39,951
That's far more meaningful to people
today.

730
00:38:39,951 --> 00:38:45,651
So yeah, you know, the days of, you know,
big block V8s thundering down Woodward

731
00:38:45,651 --> 00:38:47,987
Avenue, that doesn't resonate with the
public anymore.

732
00:38:47,987 --> 00:38:53,007
And in reality, it never did for the mass
market in terms of what they were buying.

733
00:38:53,007 --> 00:38:56,727
So there's huge opportunity with electric
cars.

734
00:38:57,047 --> 00:39:00,257
And Tesla is the prime example of that.

735
00:39:00,257 --> 00:39:06,667
It came blown into the market, flattened a
good chunk of the luxury market in a

736
00:39:06,667 --> 00:39:08,247
totally new and different way.

737
00:39:08,247 --> 00:39:11,974
And it's up to the legacies now to figure
out how to do the same thing.

738
00:39:11,974 --> 00:39:17,434
Well, and John, to that point, what they
have to figure out is they're reimagining

739
00:39:17,434 --> 00:39:22,414
the core competency and the heritage of
what their brands have been, not being

740
00:39:22,414 --> 00:39:25,854
mechanical engineering, not being around
the big loud, that's the thing too, is

741
00:39:25,854 --> 00:39:30,334
even the sensory experience of the brand
that they've built for a century.

742
00:39:30,334 --> 00:39:34,034
We are taking away the sound, we are
taking away the feel of a rumble.

743
00:39:34,034 --> 00:39:36,954
I mean, there are things that we hear this
all the time, the smell.

744
00:39:38,734 --> 00:39:39,894
Right?

745
00:39:39,894 --> 00:39:40,457
No.

746
00:39:40,457 --> 00:39:43,817
so like, that's, that's why I'm talking
about that's that, but that, that's why it

747
00:39:43,817 --> 00:39:48,277
works so well for them is like, this is
kind of a clean sheet to position us.

748
00:39:48,277 --> 00:39:50,387
And now we can deliver what the market
wants.

749
00:39:50,387 --> 00:39:53,797
Whereas if you're out, you're like, well,
how do we make this kind of like sexy

750
00:39:53,797 --> 00:39:57,837
German, European, sporty electric thing,
and then compete against the other

751
00:39:57,837 --> 00:39:58,817
Germans.

752
00:39:58,997 --> 00:39:59,397
But.

753
00:39:59,397 --> 00:40:00,717
Loren, you were bringing it up.

754
00:40:00,717 --> 00:40:04,647
I mean, Hyundai, Kia, Genesis, they're
rocking it.

755
00:40:04,647 --> 00:40:09,287
I mean, if you had told me pre -COVID that
in five years, people would be paying $60

756
00:40:09,287 --> 00:40:11,657
,000 for a Kia, I would have laughed at
you.

757
00:40:11,657 --> 00:40:13,567
You don't know what you're talking about.

758
00:40:13,567 --> 00:40:19,067
And they have been brilliant, Kia and
Hyundai, at going, hey, here's our

759
00:40:19,067 --> 00:40:20,267
opportunity.

760
00:40:20,267 --> 00:40:22,247
Toyota's dragging its feet.

761
00:40:22,247 --> 00:40:24,167
Honda's trying to figure out what to do.

762
00:40:24,167 --> 00:40:25,087
Nissan, they tried.

763
00:40:25,087 --> 00:40:26,515
They're not even in the picture.

764
00:40:26,515 --> 00:40:29,675
Here's our chance, because those are the
people who cross shop our cars.

765
00:40:29,675 --> 00:40:34,045
It's not the Detroit three, it's the
Japanese who cross shop to an extent,

766
00:40:34,045 --> 00:40:35,415
maybe Volkswagen.

767
00:40:35,415 --> 00:40:38,615
So they took the bull by the horns and
they've run with it.

768
00:40:38,615 --> 00:40:42,795
I don't think they're making any money on
it, but man, have they changed people's

769
00:40:42,795 --> 00:40:44,355
perceptions of their brand.

770
00:40:44,355 --> 00:40:48,395
And now they're perceived as one of the
leaders in electrification, at least

771
00:40:48,395 --> 00:40:49,702
amongst the legacies.

772
00:40:49,702 --> 00:40:53,502
No, John, I think you just captured the
brand perception that they captured of

773
00:40:53,502 --> 00:40:57,902
being of an innovative brand and being a
part of the future of transportation.

774
00:40:57,902 --> 00:41:01,522
I think the thing you point out to John,
that's so fundamental on the software side

775
00:41:01,522 --> 00:41:06,242
is at the end of the day, because of the
simplification of the drivetrain, and if

776
00:41:06,242 --> 00:41:10,702
you can have a high voltage battery pack
that just is reliable, software is going

777
00:41:10,702 --> 00:41:14,062
to be the key for all of these companies
moving forward.

778
00:41:14,382 --> 00:41:19,014
And, but even for Kia Hyundai, that's not
where they've really been shining.

779
00:41:19,014 --> 00:41:23,734
It's really been about design language,
doing something retro or fun and really

780
00:41:23,734 --> 00:41:28,571
establishing that they are by image an
innovative EV company.

781
00:41:28,571 --> 00:41:32,571
that's generally fair, Matt, but I would
also say their user interface is one of

782
00:41:32,571 --> 00:41:33,491
the best in the business.

783
00:41:33,491 --> 00:41:35,711
I mean, something as simple as pairing the
phone.

784
00:41:35,711 --> 00:41:36,830
I mean, it's...

785
00:41:36,830 --> 00:41:37,370
some.

786
00:41:37,370 --> 00:41:37,500
Yeah.

787
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:41,130
I mean, I think that there's still gaps of
just some of the basic functionalities of

788
00:41:41,130 --> 00:41:42,750
like, again, Tesla, Rivian.

789
00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:45,670
I think that if you look, if you go and
use the interface of those two vehicles

790
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:49,770
and then you go and use a Kia Hyundai, you
see the vast gaps in my opinion.

791
00:41:49,770 --> 00:41:50,115
Yeah.

792
00:41:50,115 --> 00:41:51,437
agree because...

793
00:41:51,437 --> 00:41:54,197
wait for it to take three seconds for it
to go to the next screen.

794
00:41:54,197 --> 00:41:57,897
And that's where you're just like, okay,
yeah.

795
00:41:58,617 --> 00:41:59,259
Right.

796
00:41:59,259 --> 00:42:03,059
the legacy automakers are not, they're
trying to learn how and they're struggling

797
00:42:03,059 --> 00:42:03,749
with it.

798
00:42:03,749 --> 00:42:08,939
I mean, really, you know, Cariad blew up
in, in Volkswagen's face.

799
00:42:08,939 --> 00:42:13,599
Mary Bar was just out on the West coast
opening a new software, you know, center

800
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:18,619
in Silicon Valley because they've
recognized, we got to go to the Valley if

801
00:42:18,619 --> 00:42:20,966
we're really going to be able to compete
here.

802
00:42:20,966 --> 00:42:21,653
Yeah.

803
00:42:21,653 --> 00:42:25,043
you know, Ford's doing a skunkworks
program out there too.

804
00:42:25,043 --> 00:42:30,603
But that's their struggle is they've got
this big legacy industrial machine that so

805
00:42:30,603 --> 00:42:34,183
many people's and communities lives depend
upon.

806
00:42:34,183 --> 00:42:39,223
And they've got to figure out how to build
up a new company within at the same time

807
00:42:39,223 --> 00:42:43,643
and don't mix the two because the big
industrial machine will smother anything

808
00:42:43,643 --> 00:42:47,223
that comes in new if it's allowed to, you
know, work together.

809
00:42:47,223 --> 00:42:48,733
So they got to keep it separate.

810
00:42:48,733 --> 00:42:50,771
It's a huge mess.

811
00:42:50,771 --> 00:42:54,731
It's going to be a mess for the rest of
the decade, and it's all a race to see who

812
00:42:54,731 --> 00:42:56,487
screws up the least.

813
00:42:56,925 --> 00:43:02,265
So John, do you, well, I was going to say,
John, do you remember what your prediction

814
00:43:02,265 --> 00:43:04,525
for 2024 was originally?

815
00:43:05,605 --> 00:43:10,185
I mean, we kind of went down a rabbit
hole, but we had been talking about sales,

816
00:43:10,675 --> 00:43:11,665
of EVs really.

817
00:43:11,665 --> 00:43:16,925
And your prediction was you didn't think
that the $7 ,500 point of sale would

818
00:43:16,925 --> 00:43:20,625
really make a big difference or move the
needle in selling EVs.

819
00:43:20,625 --> 00:43:23,445
And to be honest, we've brought up
incentives a little bit, but we haven't

820
00:43:23,445 --> 00:43:26,269
really talked about that as like,

821
00:43:26,269 --> 00:43:29,589
What is impacting or making a difference
one way or the other?

822
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:29,829
Sure.

823
00:43:29,829 --> 00:43:34,929
It's price, but I'm kind of curious if you
still agree with that or I kind of think

824
00:43:34,929 --> 00:43:38,309
it just helps with the price argument, but
I don't think it's.

825
00:43:38,309 --> 00:43:39,957
Yeah.

826
00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:41,661
But, you know,

827
00:43:41,661 --> 00:43:44,527
It's not like, yes, I'm going to do it
because of $7 ,500.

828
00:43:44,527 --> 00:43:49,787
don't think it's moved the needle, but
here's again, to why on my show, Autoline

829
00:43:49,787 --> 00:43:54,107
After Hours, we just had an executive from
JD Power, and she dropped a bombshell, I

830
00:43:54,107 --> 00:43:54,687
thought.

831
00:43:54,687 --> 00:44:00,587
40 % of the new car buying public in the
United States has no clue of the $7 ,500

832
00:44:00,587 --> 00:44:02,187
rebate for EVs.

833
00:44:02,187 --> 00:44:03,847
Don't even know about it.

834
00:44:03,847 --> 00:44:06,967
And she's like, you want to sell EVs?

835
00:44:06,967 --> 00:44:09,647
Tell the public $7 ,500.

836
00:44:09,647 --> 00:44:11,987
I mean, it should be front and center.

837
00:44:11,987 --> 00:44:17,187
Instead of saying, you know, save the
planet or zero emissions or long range or

838
00:44:17,187 --> 00:44:21,807
whatever it happens to be, you know, let
the public know there's money out there.

839
00:44:21,807 --> 00:44:26,907
And by the way, there's of course the OEMs
wouldn't do much about used, but nobody

840
00:44:26,907 --> 00:44:28,247
knows about that.

841
00:44:28,247 --> 00:44:28,777
What is it?

842
00:44:28,777 --> 00:44:30,647
Forty five hundred dollars, four thousand
bucks.

843
00:44:30,647 --> 00:44:33,542
If you buy a used TV, nobody knows about
that.

844
00:44:33,542 --> 00:44:38,322
Well, but they pulled the rug out from
under the success that that $7 ,500 tax

845
00:44:38,322 --> 00:44:45,582
credit had been by how they applied it to
battery production, mineral procurement.

846
00:44:45,582 --> 00:44:50,082
I think that the best of intentions by
policymakers to say we're incentivizing

847
00:44:50,082 --> 00:44:53,222
job creation and innovation in industry
domestically.

848
00:44:53,222 --> 00:44:54,332
That's the goal of this.

849
00:44:54,332 --> 00:44:56,262
But I think they needed to stage that.

850
00:44:56,262 --> 00:44:58,162
And we've already seen them backtrack on
it, Loren, right?

851
00:44:58,162 --> 00:44:59,270
I mean, they've actually said like,

852
00:44:59,270 --> 00:45:02,090
All right, we're taking a step back on
when were the dates on this so we can

853
00:45:02,090 --> 00:45:06,870
bring some more EVs back into that 7 ,500
fold because it went from like 45, 50

854
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:08,730
vehicles to like 13.

855
00:45:08,730 --> 00:45:12,270
And it's like, well, that's part of why
people stopped giving a damn about that.

856
00:45:12,270 --> 00:45:12,439
So.

857
00:45:12,439 --> 00:45:16,839
And I think, I think that's like the, the
flaw and to connect what you said with

858
00:45:16,839 --> 00:45:22,539
what John said is like, there was good
intent for the redesign of the tax credit,

859
00:45:22,539 --> 00:45:28,699
but it turned into trade policy, anti
-China policy, not how do we get more EVs

860
00:45:28,699 --> 00:45:30,859
in the hands of American consumers?

861
00:45:30,859 --> 00:45:37,539
They confluentated the two and therefore,
like you said, it went from 80 EVs could

862
00:45:37,539 --> 00:45:40,079
qualify for some level of the tax credit.

863
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:41,823
I needed an XL.

864
00:45:41,939 --> 00:45:48,839
you know, a file to figure out what it
was, but it, but, but, but yeah, but now

865
00:45:48,839 --> 00:45:53,299
it's like, okay, it's there's, there's
like 10 of them that qualify.

866
00:45:53,299 --> 00:45:56,939
Like, so I think everybody, like, I always
say this, Matt, you know, this, that, that

867
00:45:56,939 --> 00:46:03,319
in the face of complexity, consumers
choose simplicity and you know, like this

868
00:46:03,319 --> 00:46:05,659
got so complex that it's just going to
screw it.

869
00:46:05,659 --> 00:46:08,479
I'm going to buy a Toyota Camry hybrid.

870
00:46:08,739 --> 00:46:10,386
You know, it's like,

871
00:46:10,386 --> 00:46:13,426
said earlier, it's like they're going in
and asking these questions and like you

872
00:46:13,426 --> 00:46:17,406
experienced with that one dealership where
the moment it came to talking about any of

873
00:46:17,406 --> 00:46:19,626
this stuff, they're like, we don't even
want to bring it up, man.

874
00:46:19,626 --> 00:46:21,686
Like just buy that thing that runs on
gasoline.

875
00:46:21,686 --> 00:46:23,056
I will get my commission.

876
00:46:23,056 --> 00:46:26,866
You'll get a vehicle that takes you down
the road, you know, and that keys right to

877
00:46:26,866 --> 00:46:27,516
what Lawrence is saying.

878
00:46:27,516 --> 00:46:30,142
It's like, yeah, a path of least
resistance without a doubt.

879
00:46:32,445 --> 00:46:33,298
Yeah, I think.

880
00:46:33,298 --> 00:46:35,998
our predictions were fairly good.

881
00:46:36,861 --> 00:46:40,061
Well, I think Loren might've been the most
spot on.

882
00:46:40,061 --> 00:46:41,787
Do you remember what yours was, Loren?

883
00:46:42,771 --> 00:46:46,241
I don't really, but I think I said
something like that.

884
00:46:46,241 --> 00:46:52,971
I thought EV sales were going to continue
to grow at a fairly strong level, but

885
00:46:52,971 --> 00:46:55,121
obviously less than previous years.

886
00:46:55,121 --> 00:46:55,411
I don't know.

887
00:46:55,411 --> 00:46:56,573
Something like that, maybe.

888
00:46:56,573 --> 00:46:57,703
You should phone a friend.

889
00:46:57,703 --> 00:46:59,193
That was incorrect.

890
00:47:00,773 --> 00:47:03,803
Now, you actually had two that were pretty
spot on.

891
00:47:03,803 --> 00:47:07,233
You said that we will see a return of plug
-in hybrids, which we've kind of already

892
00:47:07,233 --> 00:47:08,573
talked about quite a bit.

893
00:47:08,573 --> 00:47:13,870
And then you said 2024 is going to be an
ugly year in the EV charging space.

894
00:47:13,870 --> 00:47:14,915
yeah, yeah, that.

895
00:47:14,915 --> 00:47:15,775
all coming back.

896
00:47:15,775 --> 00:47:16,075
Yes.

897
00:47:16,075 --> 00:47:19,015
I was, I would like to say I was right on
both of those.

898
00:47:19,015 --> 00:47:19,581
Yeah.

899
00:47:19,581 --> 00:47:22,801
I think you were extremely right on both
of those.

900
00:47:23,341 --> 00:47:28,221
As kind of the guy who is the one that
always tracks the Nevi funding and that

901
00:47:28,221 --> 00:47:32,041
whole space, I think probably better than
anyone else out there.

902
00:47:32,041 --> 00:47:36,541
Are there any other kind of interesting
trends you've been seeing with kind of the

903
00:47:36,541 --> 00:47:39,797
rollout of more EV chargers because of
some of this fallout?

904
00:47:40,563 --> 00:47:44,673
Yeah, I mean, you know, kind of in no
particular order.

905
00:47:44,673 --> 00:47:54,283
I mean, I think one of the trends we've
seen is a shift in who the site hosts are

906
00:47:54,283 --> 00:47:57,443
and like the whole business model for the
fast charging industry.

907
00:47:57,443 --> 00:48:03,443
So more than 50 % of the site host
winners, they're not necessarily the

908
00:48:03,443 --> 00:48:03,853
applicant.

909
00:48:03,853 --> 00:48:05,193
Sometimes they are.

910
00:48:05,193 --> 00:48:06,739
Are the, you know,

911
00:48:06,739 --> 00:48:11,689
the sheets, the wah -wahs, the circle Ks,
the travel centers of America, the pilot,

912
00:48:11,689 --> 00:48:13,299
the loves, et cetera.

913
00:48:13,299 --> 00:48:13,989
Why?

914
00:48:13,989 --> 00:48:18,139
Because they check all of the boxes that
the states are looking for.

915
00:48:18,139 --> 00:48:24,179
Safe, well -lit amenities, bathroom, wifi,
food, et cetera.

916
00:48:24,179 --> 00:48:30,057
And so at one level, the fast charging
industry,

917
00:48:30,099 --> 00:48:34,929
You know, sort of started out as what I
call the grant and incentives business.

918
00:48:34,929 --> 00:48:37,119
There is no business model there.

919
00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:41,999
It's let's go out and get money from the
state, from the air resources board, from

920
00:48:41,999 --> 00:48:43,439
utilities.

921
00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:48,499
we'll build these things with this other
money and then cross our fingers in four

922
00:48:48,499 --> 00:48:49,459
or five years.

923
00:48:49,459 --> 00:48:52,339
There's enough people are driving EVs that
will break even.

924
00:48:52,339 --> 00:48:54,299
Right.

925
00:48:54,559 --> 00:48:57,619
And then, you know, and, and, you know,

926
00:48:57,619 --> 00:48:59,899
that hasn't worked so well for everybody.

927
00:48:59,899 --> 00:49:04,859
We're starting to see utilization is
actually really starting to get solid now.

928
00:49:04,859 --> 00:49:09,939
But I think the sort of the real shift,
the inflection point we started to see

929
00:49:09,939 --> 00:49:16,599
this year is that all of the major oil
companies slash convenience store, travel

930
00:49:16,599 --> 00:49:22,475
center chains woke up and go, went, my
God, we're like.

931
00:49:22,739 --> 00:49:25,259
perfect for the future of this transition.

932
00:49:25,259 --> 00:49:29,379
People are going to sit for 20, 30 minutes
at our place.

933
00:49:29,379 --> 00:49:33,859
They're going to walk inside and spend
$15, $20 on food and beverages.

934
00:49:34,999 --> 00:49:35,179
Right?

935
00:49:35,179 --> 00:49:38,079
Like, how do we get some of this money?

936
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:39,039
Let's do this.

937
00:49:39,039 --> 00:49:39,499
Right?

938
00:49:39,499 --> 00:49:45,179
So I think there's a shift in
fundamentally it's the same transition

939
00:49:45,179 --> 00:49:47,039
that happened with gas stations.

940
00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:47,439
Right?

941
00:49:47,439 --> 00:49:51,667
Like, you know, John and I are old enough
to know this, but you know, like,

942
00:49:51,667 --> 00:49:56,427
30, 40 years ago, they were gas stations
with service bays, right?

943
00:49:56,947 --> 00:49:59,287
And now, so it was fascinating.

944
00:49:59,287 --> 00:50:05,227
I've learned a lot about a Midwest
convenience store chain called Quick Trip.

945
00:50:05,847 --> 00:50:09,739
35 % of their revenue is now from food.

946
00:50:11,219 --> 00:50:12,649
food, right?

947
00:50:12,649 --> 00:50:18,159
Like they're a supermarket with 12 gas
pumps out front.

948
00:50:18,159 --> 00:50:20,899
Like they've completely flipped.

949
00:50:21,579 --> 00:50:26,139
And so I think that's like the kind of
this year, that's been one of the things

950
00:50:26,139 --> 00:50:29,749
that I think we all saw was coming, but
it's actually starting to happen.

951
00:50:29,749 --> 00:50:32,899
Like all these companies have jumped on
board.

952
00:50:32,899 --> 00:50:37,387
The second part, Chase, really what you
sort of referred to is...

953
00:50:38,387 --> 00:50:42,147
Too many companies, just like what John
was talking about in sort of the

954
00:50:42,147 --> 00:50:47,647
automotive EV space, too many hardware
companies have entered the fast charging

955
00:50:47,647 --> 00:50:48,177
space.

956
00:50:48,177 --> 00:50:53,947
I mean, I have clients that I can't
mention that are from Asia and stuff that

957
00:50:53,947 --> 00:51:02,187
are planning major attacks on the US, you
know, that was wrong term to use, that are

958
00:51:02,187 --> 00:51:05,877
planning to enter the US market next year,
right?

959
00:51:05,877 --> 00:51:07,155
Like we already have...

960
00:51:07,155 --> 00:51:12,095
many fast charging hardware companies, but
they're just coming in droves, right?

961
00:51:12,095 --> 00:51:17,135
And so there's certain companies, I won't
mention their name, but like, they were

962
00:51:17,135 --> 00:51:18,975
just too expensive, right?

963
00:51:18,975 --> 00:51:29,115
And so it's gotten much more difficult and
much more competitive in the fast charging

964
00:51:29,115 --> 00:51:31,875
hardware space in particular, right?

965
00:51:31,875 --> 00:51:36,331
And so, yeah, and so we're seeing some
fallout from that.

966
00:51:37,407 --> 00:51:42,047
and, yeah, it's, it's going to continue to
be ugly, but then we also have like just

967
00:51:42,047 --> 00:51:46,547
dozens and dozens of new entrance into the
charging network space.

968
00:51:47,587 --> 00:51:53,007
and, you know, and we're seeing new
companies like Rov, if you've heard of

969
00:51:53,007 --> 00:51:58,387
them out of Southern California, that's
building like a, a four court, they call

970
00:51:58,387 --> 00:52:05,217
them in Europe, but basically it's a store
with solar canopies and 40 bays and.

971
00:52:05,979 --> 00:52:10,499
you know, you're, you're going there for,
to go inside the store, right.

972
00:52:10,499 --> 00:52:12,339
While your car sits out front, right?

973
00:52:12,339 --> 00:52:14,659
So we're going to see a lot of innovation.

974
00:52:15,399 --> 00:52:18,739
and if those companies do that, right,
then people aren't going to want to stop

975
00:52:18,739 --> 00:52:24,479
at the fast chargers that are located out
by the garbage cans, you know, be behind

976
00:52:24,479 --> 00:52:28,199
a, you know, McDonald's restaurant down
off of I, I five, right.

977
00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:30,459
They're going to want to go to a much
better environment.

978
00:52:30,459 --> 00:52:32,459
So we're, we're.

979
00:52:32,467 --> 00:52:36,987
We're in the midst of a kind of
significant shift in business models,

980
00:52:36,987 --> 00:52:40,047
players, competitiveness.

981
00:52:40,047 --> 00:52:43,865
I know that was a lot, but yeah, there's a
lot going on in the space.

982
00:52:45,085 --> 00:52:49,545
Yeah, it definitely seems like what we've
the charging spaces struggled with was

983
00:52:49,545 --> 00:52:53,885
like getting the right land and making
sure they get the permitting and all this

984
00:52:53,885 --> 00:52:56,925
stuff set up just even get the thing built
like a couple of years ago and it still

985
00:52:56,925 --> 00:53:00,044
is, but especially then, and then it
became reliability.

986
00:53:00,044 --> 00:53:04,825
And now you have like the electrify
Americas who don't even make their own

987
00:53:04,825 --> 00:53:05,205
hardware.

988
00:53:05,205 --> 00:53:06,145
They buy the hardware.

989
00:53:06,145 --> 00:53:09,785
They have to do all of this kind of
finagling behind the scenes to find a

990
00:53:09,785 --> 00:53:10,875
place to do this.

991
00:53:10,875 --> 00:53:12,669
And yeah, now you have.

992
00:53:12,669 --> 00:53:16,869
the kind of the gas state, large gas
station, C stores come in that they know

993
00:53:16,869 --> 00:53:17,559
how to do permitting.

994
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:19,869
They have the land, they have all this.

995
00:53:19,969 --> 00:53:22,849
they'll just take some free money if they
can, and then just have the people come

996
00:53:22,849 --> 00:53:24,219
and buy the stuff they're already buying.

997
00:53:24,219 --> 00:53:26,709
They don't really care if it's gas or
electricity.

998
00:53:26,709 --> 00:53:28,929
They're not really making money in either
of those.

999
00:53:28,929 --> 00:53:32,549
And I think then what's really interesting
too, is like, when you actually look at

1000
00:53:32,549 --> 00:53:37,769
the EV charging hardware space, it kind of
reminds me of like the PC market, like a

1001
00:53:37,769 --> 00:53:40,893
decade and a half ago, where it was just
like battle of.

1002
00:53:40,893 --> 00:53:42,913
Who has the most widgets?

1003
00:53:42,913 --> 00:53:47,013
And then in the end, it just became like
the Asian markets just flooded it with

1004
00:53:47,013 --> 00:53:51,693
price for what could kind of come in and
deliver the same value because it really

1005
00:53:51,693 --> 00:53:54,073
didn't matter as long as it worked.

1006
00:53:54,073 --> 00:53:57,833
Who did what better and who had maybe a
slightly different better charging screen

1007
00:53:57,833 --> 00:54:02,393
because so much of it has also become a
software level too that just kind of

1008
00:54:02,393 --> 00:54:04,743
becomes the end consumer doesn't care.

1009
00:54:04,743 --> 00:54:06,387
They just want the best price.

1010
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:10,570
Well, if they can't differentiate for
functionality, yeah.

1011
00:54:10,810 --> 00:54:11,614
Yeah.

1012
00:54:13,053 --> 00:54:16,833
Well, I realized we were kind of coming up
on the end of our time here and I feel

1013
00:54:16,833 --> 00:54:22,373
like that's probably maybe that's a bit of
a sour point to get on.

1014
00:54:22,533 --> 00:54:27,723
But, I, yeah, I don't know if there's any
positive out, real quickly.

1015
00:54:27,723 --> 00:54:32,473
If I, if anyone on here has any kind of
positive outlooks about the EV space, or

1016
00:54:32,473 --> 00:54:34,598
EV charting space that they've seen
recently.

1017
00:54:34,598 --> 00:54:36,159
I, I, go Loren.

1018
00:54:36,159 --> 00:54:42,459
some positive news is Tesla's rehiring
some of the people that they laid off.

1019
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:47,155
Sorry, slow golf clap on that one.

1020
00:54:47,155 --> 00:54:48,115
Yeah.

1021
00:54:49,574 --> 00:54:53,074
Yeah, that was, that wasn't that a fun
month.

1022
00:54:53,074 --> 00:54:58,314
I mean, it felt like it just overtook
every like moment of talking around what's

1023
00:54:58,314 --> 00:55:02,854
going on in this space and, and, you know,
and the collective gasp of the industry

1024
00:55:02,854 --> 00:55:03,824
had, I mean, it's good.

1025
00:55:03,824 --> 00:55:04,914
That's good to hear.

1026
00:55:04,914 --> 00:55:09,514
I just don't like the idea that, you know,
we had a lot of people.

1027
00:55:10,094 --> 00:55:10,469
good.

1028
00:55:10,469 --> 00:55:15,209
what's really interesting is that news
masked so much other like bad EV charging

1029
00:55:15,209 --> 00:55:19,189
news, it's cause Tesla gets headlines and
then there's like, well, yeah.

1030
00:55:19,189 --> 00:55:22,289
And then XYZ charging company laid off
3000 people.

1031
00:55:22,289 --> 00:55:24,959
It's like, there were so many other like,
yeah, exactly.

1032
00:55:24,959 --> 00:55:27,349
So many other things like, well, if
they're announcing that's getting all the

1033
00:55:27,349 --> 00:55:31,189
headlines, let's say our bad news, like
free wire, we're going for bankruptcy kind

1034
00:55:31,189 --> 00:55:33,949
of, and it was just like stuff like that.

1035
00:55:33,949 --> 00:55:36,969
And, I, I don't know.

1036
00:55:36,969 --> 00:55:37,501
I.

1037
00:55:37,501 --> 00:55:40,561
It definitely didn't look good, but my
take is like, whenever you look at Tesla,

1038
00:55:40,561 --> 00:55:43,441
it's always like, what's there's some
short -term craziness.

1039
00:55:43,441 --> 00:55:44,441
Like, what was it last year?

1040
00:55:44,441 --> 00:55:47,981
They laid off all their salespeople and
then they still sold a bunch of cars.

1041
00:55:48,241 --> 00:55:52,541
it always seems like there's these super
erratic decisions, good or bad that gets a

1042
00:55:52,541 --> 00:55:53,241
lot of headlines.

1043
00:55:53,241 --> 00:55:57,521
And then you kind of look at the long
-term output of their success.

1044
00:55:57,521 --> 00:55:59,601
And it kind of just seems to kind of all
go away.

1045
00:55:59,601 --> 00:56:03,321
I was kind of what, what's really funny to
me.

1046
00:56:03,321 --> 00:56:03,961
And I don't know.

1047
00:56:03,961 --> 00:56:07,421
I'd be kind of curious maybe on the, on
your thoughts, Loren, about this.

1048
00:56:07,421 --> 00:56:12,201
is when I first heard this, it reminded me
of so many things I've heard happen

1049
00:56:12,201 --> 00:56:14,761
previously, in the tech industry.

1050
00:56:14,761 --> 00:56:18,481
Like I have heard so many times where
like, like someone gets annoyed by a team

1051
00:56:18,481 --> 00:56:20,241
and they just let the whole team go.

1052
00:56:20,241 --> 00:56:23,541
Like Steve jobs was famous for like
letting the original version of iCloud

1053
00:56:23,541 --> 00:56:25,981
team just go cause he didn't like the
product.

1054
00:56:26,501 --> 00:56:32,411
and I think it just got so well, and I'm
not even talking about iCloud.

1055
00:56:32,411 --> 00:56:35,742
I'm talking about like the me .com thing
way back in the day, like,

1056
00:56:35,742 --> 00:56:36,702
yeah.

1057
00:56:37,182 --> 00:56:38,354
Yeah.

1058
00:56:38,449 --> 00:56:43,569
and so to me, it is just really
interesting that I feel it, I guess I was

1059
00:56:43,569 --> 00:56:48,229
trying to be positive and now it's just
being negative, but it is, kind of weird

1060
00:56:48,229 --> 00:56:55,489
how it, there isn't a good, all this
really short -term, like small kind of

1061
00:56:55,489 --> 00:56:55,989
things.

1062
00:56:55,989 --> 00:56:59,449
And yeah, it's not great that he fired all
those people and like hired half of them

1063
00:56:59,449 --> 00:57:02,717
back in the next week anyway, but it's
like, it just,

1064
00:57:02,717 --> 00:57:06,097
kind of feeds in unfortunately to so much
of the media narrative and kind of a lot

1065
00:57:06,097 --> 00:57:11,017
of the headlines that people are seeing
versus like the actual facts and kind of

1066
00:57:11,017 --> 00:57:13,157
looking at it from like a longer term
thing.

1067
00:57:13,157 --> 00:57:14,637
And I don't know, John, you're smiling.

1068
00:57:14,637 --> 00:57:17,217
So I guess maybe that maybe nothing's new.

1069
00:57:17,217 --> 00:57:19,196
It just, it's me venting.

1070
00:57:19,377 --> 00:57:20,677
Yeah.

1071
00:57:20,677 --> 00:57:21,511
Yeah.

1072
00:57:21,511 --> 00:57:22,011
about them?

1073
00:57:22,011 --> 00:57:26,311
So here's one thing that I noticed that I
thought was important.

1074
00:57:26,311 --> 00:57:29,411
US EB sales not growing that fast this
year.

1075
00:57:29,411 --> 00:57:33,731
We talked about maybe second half being
different, but that's mainly because, and

1076
00:57:33,731 --> 00:57:37,311
this is based on registrations, because
Tesla does not report sales in the United

1077
00:57:37,311 --> 00:57:39,955
States, but based on that, the large...

1078
00:57:39,955 --> 00:57:41,915
largely the slowdown has been with Tesla.

1079
00:57:41,915 --> 00:57:46,615
And if you take it out of the equation and
look at the other legacies, EV sales grew

1080
00:57:46,615 --> 00:57:48,635
75%.

1081
00:57:48,635 --> 00:57:50,655
So I think that's extremely positive.

1082
00:57:50,655 --> 00:57:54,027
And if Tesla gets its act together, things
will be pretty good.

1083
00:57:54,210 --> 00:57:55,970
Well, that's a great point.

1084
00:57:55,970 --> 00:57:59,170
And the one comment I made when all this
news came about about the supercharger

1085
00:57:59,170 --> 00:58:03,470
team and everything else, the one element
that I think is, and I've shared this idea

1086
00:58:03,470 --> 00:58:09,310
on LinkedIn, is Elon is becoming a genuine
net negative for the Tesla brand.

1087
00:58:09,310 --> 00:58:12,130
And I don't know how in the long term
they're going to contend with that, but

1088
00:58:12,130 --> 00:58:15,170
you can just, you see it on social media
and owners groups all the time that did

1089
00:58:15,170 --> 00:58:16,050
not buy Teslas.

1090
00:58:16,050 --> 00:58:20,250
And you will even hear people say, I went
in test drove a Model Y and whatever

1091
00:58:20,250 --> 00:58:21,590
vehicle they ended up buying.

1092
00:58:21,590 --> 00:58:22,790
And they will even say,

1093
00:58:22,790 --> 00:58:25,970
I actually liked a lot of the features of
the Tesla, but I was not going to give

1094
00:58:25,970 --> 00:58:27,170
money to Elon.

1095
00:58:27,170 --> 00:58:30,970
And it's like, well, that's OK, Tesla,
board of directors, you get to contend

1096
00:58:30,970 --> 00:58:31,930
with that.

1097
00:58:31,930 --> 00:58:37,350
I think from a positivity perspective, I
just came from a week or two ago being at

1098
00:58:37,350 --> 00:58:39,230
the Electrify Expo event in Long Beach.

1099
00:58:39,230 --> 00:58:41,340
And again, they have eight events
nationwide.

1100
00:58:41,340 --> 00:58:42,610
And they've been growing that event
series.

1101
00:58:42,610 --> 00:58:45,520
It's a public festival to come and test
drive EVs.

1102
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,646
It's the biggest event they've ever had.

1103
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:50,910
And they've had, that's the fourth year
they've now had it in, in California,

1104
00:58:50,910 --> 00:58:51,480
Southern California.

1105
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:52,660
And it keeps growing.

1106
00:58:52,660 --> 00:58:56,710
So there's, I think there's, to John's
point, there's continued, there's, there's

1107
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:59,650
positive things happening outside the
realm of Tesla.

1108
00:58:59,650 --> 00:59:01,850
And I think that, and there's evidence all
around us.

1109
00:59:01,850 --> 00:59:06,380
I think the reason why we oftentimes keep
coming back to this is kind of like, John,

1110
00:59:06,380 --> 00:59:08,530
we're talking about this a little bit
before we started talking, it's just this

1111
00:59:08,530 --> 00:59:12,850
kind of ebb and flow of just kind of like,
yay, that's positive, negative.

1112
00:59:12,850 --> 00:59:16,198
And I, and I, we can't change it
overnight, but we don't.

1113
00:59:16,198 --> 00:59:21,318
Oftentimes, whatever the media topic is,
we don't have a measured response to those

1114
00:59:21,318 --> 00:59:25,178
moments and to the talking points and to
the discussions.

1115
00:59:25,178 --> 00:59:28,858
It's oftentimes what's going to get the
clicks and how can we...

1116
00:59:28,858 --> 00:59:34,558
John Stewart said years ago at one of the
events he held was at the Rally to Restore

1117
00:59:34,558 --> 00:59:35,038
Sanity.

1118
00:59:35,038 --> 00:59:38,118
He said, if we amplify everything, we hear
nothing.

1119
00:59:38,378 --> 00:59:44,118
And that quote has stuck with me for so
long because we live that seemingly every

1120
00:59:44,118 --> 00:59:45,382
day in the ED world.

1121
00:59:45,382 --> 00:59:50,442
because everything gets this whaah
amplification and it just does distract us

1122
00:59:50,442 --> 00:59:54,662
from again positive news, progress, things
that are going in the right direction.

1123
00:59:54,662 --> 00:59:59,242
It's a muddy process we're getting through
but if you really look at the last 10

1124
00:59:59,242 --> 01:00:04,132
years and you take a step back and take a
breath, wow what has been accomplished.

1125
01:00:04,132 --> 01:00:07,882
It is very impressive, it's not perfect
but we've made a lot of progress and

1126
01:00:07,882 --> 01:00:09,102
things just are going in the right
direction.

1127
01:00:09,102 --> 01:00:10,771
It's just gonna require more hard work.

1128
01:00:10,771 --> 01:00:11,511
Yeah.

1129
01:00:11,511 --> 01:00:16,751
And Jace, I would just close with kind of
an exclamation point on something that

1130
01:00:16,751 --> 01:00:23,151
John said actually sort of earlier, which
is, you know, we're sort of backloaded for

1131
01:00:23,151 --> 01:00:23,791
this year.

1132
01:00:23,791 --> 01:00:29,411
And I think there's a little bit of a kind
of the quasi -Osborne effect, right?

1133
01:00:29,411 --> 01:00:35,351
In that, you know, we had this rush of new
models a couple of years ago.

1134
01:00:35,691 --> 01:00:40,179
And then, you know, we haven't had a lot
of new exciting models.

1135
01:00:40,179 --> 01:00:42,719
you know, kind of for mainstream consumers
come to market.

1136
01:00:42,719 --> 01:00:47,199
But now this year, you know, like we've
got the, the EV nine, we've got the, the

1137
01:00:47,199 --> 01:00:53,159
Volvo, X 30, the 90, we've got the
Chevrolet blazer equinox.

1138
01:00:53,159 --> 01:01:00,779
Like we've, we, we actually have, a whole
bunch of new products to get the market

1139
01:01:00,779 --> 01:01:01,739
excited again.

1140
01:01:01,739 --> 01:01:05,859
I think, God.

1141
01:01:07,919 --> 01:01:08,458
yeah.

1142
01:01:08,458 --> 01:01:12,678
that vehicle will be in production for, I
don't know, if in three years time it's

1143
01:01:12,678 --> 01:01:13,838
still being produced.

1144
01:01:13,838 --> 01:01:15,658
I think it might be very shocking.

1145
01:01:15,658 --> 01:01:18,498
I just, I think I...

1146
01:01:18,498 --> 01:01:19,204
Really?

1147
01:01:19,204 --> 01:01:20,265
for us.

1148
01:01:20,265 --> 01:01:22,865
That's well, and here's what really hot
take.

1149
01:01:22,865 --> 01:01:27,785
I think it still looks better than an EV
nine, but, here it's here to me though.

1150
01:01:27,785 --> 01:01:32,185
It's like people who don't care about cars
think it's sweet.

1151
01:01:32,265 --> 01:01:35,745
People who are like, yeah.

1152
01:01:35,745 --> 01:01:37,323
Yeah.

1153
01:01:37,323 --> 01:01:42,383
But I happened to be at a local state park
where I was mountain biking.

1154
01:01:42,383 --> 01:01:44,843
And there's a playground there with a
bunch of little kids.

1155
01:01:44,843 --> 01:01:46,193
And a Cybertruck drove in.

1156
01:01:46,193 --> 01:01:49,423
I mean, there's all kinds of trucks and
SUVs and blah, blah.

1157
01:01:49,423 --> 01:01:51,863
Cybertruck drove in park.

1158
01:01:51,863 --> 01:01:54,743
It emptied the children's playground.

1159
01:01:54,743 --> 01:01:58,303
They went to that thing like moths to a
light bulb.

1160
01:01:58,303 --> 01:02:02,515
It was a, and one little boy going around,
my God, it's so beautiful.

1161
01:02:02,515 --> 01:02:04,975
And that, to me, was stunning.

1162
01:02:04,975 --> 01:02:10,145
I mean, that truck has broken through for
a very young generation.

1163
01:02:10,305 --> 01:02:14,305
It's the like, it's like the eighties,
Kuntach for like this generation.

1164
01:02:14,305 --> 01:02:17,725
They think it's such a cool, weird,
angular thing.

1165
01:02:18,045 --> 01:02:20,565
and then you just talk to like regular car
people and they like that.

1166
01:02:20,565 --> 01:02:22,375
It just doesn't look like anything else on
the road.

1167
01:02:22,375 --> 01:02:24,145
They're like, yeah, I, I don't know.

1168
01:02:24,145 --> 01:02:26,725
I, I, I, yeah.

1169
01:02:27,005 --> 01:02:28,985
Right.

1170
01:02:29,205 --> 01:02:30,965
That's fair.

1171
01:02:30,965 --> 01:02:31,709
Yeah, that's fair.

1172
01:02:31,709 --> 01:02:35,990
then they can't because there is a very
very low ceiling to people that are

1173
01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:41,250
willing to pay $120 ,000 that truck and
also the performance aspects of it It just

1174
01:02:41,250 --> 01:02:45,390
isn't what it was promised to be right 500
miles of range all this stuff They have to

1175
01:02:45,390 --> 01:02:48,730
either deliver on those promises for what
that high -priced model is gonna be

1176
01:02:48,730 --> 01:02:52,510
because there's only a small amount of
early adopters who want the aesthetic of

1177
01:02:52,510 --> 01:02:52,870
it and

1178
01:02:52,870 --> 01:02:56,950
to also just kind of turn a blind eye to,
it didn't ship with autopilot.

1179
01:02:56,950 --> 01:03:00,870
I mean, like there are some elements about
it they were just damning to me.

1180
01:03:00,950 --> 01:03:01,899
Yeah.

1181
01:03:01,899 --> 01:03:03,059
that's cause we know it.

1182
01:03:03,059 --> 01:03:03,619
We're car people.

1183
01:03:03,619 --> 01:03:05,989
We understand that they don't care.

1184
01:03:05,989 --> 01:03:07,129
Yeah.

1185
01:03:07,129 --> 01:03:10,639
They just, they think it's cool that it
looks wild and it's electric.

1186
01:03:10,639 --> 01:03:13,709
They're like, this thing's game over.

1187
01:03:13,769 --> 01:03:18,849
But on that, I think this is a good place
as any to end it.

1188
01:03:18,849 --> 01:03:22,049
Thank you so much everyone for joining us
today.

1189
01:03:22,229 --> 01:03:25,449
for anyone listening, we will have
everyone's contact info and more in the

1190
01:03:25,449 --> 01:03:26,397
show notes, but.

1191
01:03:26,397 --> 01:03:30,037
With that, John, Loren Matt, thank you so
much for being on again.

1192
01:03:30,037 --> 01:03:33,057
Really fun to kind of recap these
predictions and looking forward to

1193
01:03:33,057 --> 01:03:34,549
speaking with all of you soon again.

1194
01:03:34,771 --> 01:03:35,799
Thanks you guys.

1195
01:03:35,799 --> 01:03:36,159
a lot.

1196
01:03:36,159 --> 01:03:36,879
Take

1197
01:03:42,312 --> 01:03:45,552
Thank you for joining us for this
insightful mid -year check -in on the Grid

1198
01:03:45,552 --> 01:03:47,072
Connections podcast.

1199
01:03:47,072 --> 01:03:51,032
Special thanks to our returning guests,
John McElroy from Autoline Network, Lauren

1200
01:03:51,032 --> 01:03:55,152
McDonald of EV Adoption, and Matt Teske of
Chargeway.

1201
01:03:55,152 --> 01:03:58,852
Really appreciate all of them swinging by
to share their expert perspectives on the

1202
01:03:58,852 --> 01:04:01,072
always evolving EV landscape.

1203
01:04:01,072 --> 01:04:04,312
We hope you found today's discussion as
lightning as we did.

1204
01:04:04,312 --> 01:04:07,712
If you enjoyed this episode, please share
it with at least one other person who

1205
01:04:07,712 --> 01:04:09,888
would benefit from this information as
well.

1206
01:04:09,928 --> 01:04:13,068
And don't forget to leave us a pause
review on our podcast page.

1207
01:04:13,068 --> 01:04:16,308
It really does help us reach more
listeners like you and continue to bring

1208
01:04:16,308 --> 01:04:19,128
you the latest in EV news and insights.

1209
01:04:19,128 --> 01:04:21,866
Until next week, this is the Grid
Connections podcast signing