WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.537 --> 00:00:17.557 Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.097 --> 00:00:19.557 I am your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.557 --> 00:00:22.317 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:34.538 --> 00:00:36.948 Alright, well Welcome to the podcast. 00:00:37.488 --> 00:00:40.308 I'm so excited to have Dr. Valerie Dore. 00:00:41.383 --> 00:00:42.243 Uh, I don't know. 00:00:43.573 --> 00:00:44.283 , we'll go with it. 00:00:45.333 --> 00:00:53.803 , she's been a educator for 27 years, including 15 years as a school principal and 22 years in providing teacher training and professional development. 00:00:54.623 --> 00:01:01.123 She recently completed her, uh, doctorate in leadership and innovation from Arizona State University. 00:01:01.663 --> 00:01:18.488 Um, and she talked about she do dissertation on the trust-based observation protocol, which if you've been . Listening to this, uh, podcast, you know about, uh, Craig Randall, who, who I've had on the program and his, uh, excellent work around that. 00:01:19.188 --> 00:01:20.888 And so we're gonna talk a little bit about this. 00:01:21.188 --> 00:01:27.208 And I'm gonna be honest, I'm using this as a session to help me in my dissertation process. 00:01:27.588 --> 00:01:30.728 So many of you know that I'm working on my doctor right now. 00:01:30.828 --> 00:01:32.608 I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do. 00:01:33.658 --> 00:01:39.358 So Valerie has graciously agreed, having just finished her recently and gone through that torment. 00:01:39.998 --> 00:01:42.818 To gimme some, uh, ideas and, and thoughts. 00:01:42.918 --> 00:01:48.818 And so we're gonna talk a lot about Craig's stuff, but we're also gonna apply it to me and I'm gonna use this selfishly. 00:01:48.818 --> 00:01:51.378 So, Valerie, welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:01:51.378 --> 00:01:52.058 Thanks for being here. 00:01:53.063 --> 00:01:53.973 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Thank you, Jetro. 00:01:54.213 --> 00:01:55.413 I am really excited to be here. 00:01:56.078 --> 00:01:59.218 Jethro Jones: All right, well, uh, one of the things that I love about doing. 00:02:00.278 --> 00:02:07.328 This podcast is that I get to talk to people who are super smart, but that maybe people don't actually know about. 00:02:07.868 --> 00:02:23.808 And um, you might be one of those people you're doing good work in, um, the Apache Reservation in Arizona and it's awesome that you're doing that, but that probably does not get you a lot of national and out there exposure. 00:02:23.988 --> 00:02:24.208 So. 00:02:24.923 --> 00:02:31.583 Um, so why don't we start by you telling me a little bit about your work on the reservation, where you started your career, and where you're at now. 00:02:32.888 --> 00:02:38.458 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, so I, I started, um, as a third grade teacher in January, 1998. 00:02:38.598 --> 00:02:49.298 It was my first, uh, teaching job, and I moved from my small town other, a different town in Arizona to, um, white River, Arizona on the White Mountain Apache Reservation. 00:02:49.598 --> 00:02:54.418 And, um, I, I taught as a third grade teacher for six and a half years. 00:02:55.388 --> 00:03:13.128 And I was really, uh, privileged to have a lot of amazing professional development and supportive administrators, supervisors, and so I was able to, um, in addition to getting my, my master's degree from Northern Arizona University, I was able to move up in, in the district. 00:03:13.188 --> 00:03:17.328 So I was a district school improvement specialist and an assistant principal. 00:03:18.108 --> 00:03:24.528 . And then I got to return to my, my school where I had originally been a teacher as its principal. 00:03:25.148 --> 00:03:31.968 And I, uh, total, total time in White River was, um, at that time was 13 and a half years. 00:03:32.518 --> 00:03:34.048 Then I went elsewhere for 10 years. 00:03:34.148 --> 00:03:37.688 And, um, I, I've been back for the past four years. 00:03:38.193 --> 00:03:38.483 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:03:38.713 --> 00:03:39.203 Very cool. 00:03:39.583 --> 00:03:48.683 And, um, I, I really appreciate when people are committed to a community like you obviously are, and I think that's really powerful. 00:03:48.863 --> 00:04:05.123 So, um, tell us, I, I know this is going to be tough because you, you wrote like 190 pages on this topic, but tell, give us a brief overview of what your dissertation was about and what you were going for. 00:04:06.618 --> 00:04:09.628 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, just to correct you, it is almost 300 pages. 00:04:09.808 --> 00:04:10.028 But 00:04:10.588 --> 00:04:10.878 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:04:11.028 --> 00:04:18.238 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: I, I guess that's with the, um, I. Well, yeah, that's with the y the addendum, you know, the appendices. 00:04:18.238 --> 00:04:18.478 What? 00:04:18.668 --> 00:04:19.678 Yeah, that's what they're called. 00:04:20.178 --> 00:04:22.278 Um, you'll, you'll, you'll soon find out. 00:04:22.488 --> 00:04:22.778 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:04:22.888 --> 00:04:26.978 Well, according to mine, 2 98 in my P read, 00:04:27.018 --> 00:04:27.238 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: yes. 00:04:27.468 --> 00:04:28.118 That, that is. 00:04:28.788 --> 00:04:28.908 Jethro Jones: I. 00:04:31.723 --> 00:04:45.813 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, I said almost so . Um, uh, yeah, so, so the process, first of all with my program with Arizona State University, um, it's the EDD and Leadership and Innovation Program, and it's a three and a half year cohort. 00:04:46.553 --> 00:04:50.293 Um, where, uh, practitioners, uh, we. 00:04:50.873 --> 00:04:54.093 We implement action research in our, in our own settings. 00:04:54.213 --> 00:05:00.213 I actually did not do my research in my, my current district, um, in a different district. 00:05:00.673 --> 00:05:07.013 But the idea is, um, actually engaging in an intervention to solve a problem of practice. 00:05:07.513 --> 00:05:10.013 Um, so it is not just. 00:05:10.748 --> 00:05:17.508 S uh, putting together a survey and, and maybe you, you have hundreds of people that answer your survey, which is, is great. 00:05:17.768 --> 00:05:19.868 Um, and will certainly, uh. 00:05:21.293 --> 00:05:27.443 Learn a lot about whatever that that problem may be or whatever that research may be, and be able to impact practice. 00:05:27.743 --> 00:05:37.283 But the great thing about action research is it really does impact practice because you're actually doing it within the setting and you're part of, of that setting. 00:05:37.783 --> 00:05:38.003 So. 00:05:39.033 --> 00:05:51.173 The, the program was really great because it, it built up to the final dissertation cycle because, uh, even in the second year, we already started doing action research cycles. 00:05:51.173 --> 00:06:01.998 So I did two cycles of action research, um, with this district before I. Before I was in the final year, um, which is the third year. 00:06:02.138 --> 00:06:10.558 But it really, with the timing, it's, it, it comes out to three and a half . And as long as you stick with your cohort, you, you get to, you do it in that time, you know? 00:06:10.858 --> 00:06:12.318 So I did manage to do that. 00:06:12.318 --> 00:06:13.118 It was, it was amazing. 00:06:13.138 --> 00:06:13.998 And it was great because. 00:06:15.138 --> 00:06:18.358 The cohort that I was involved with, we really got to know each other. 00:06:18.578 --> 00:06:25.678 It was online, uh, you know, virtually a lot with zooms and so on, but we really got to know each other, um, and really help each other. 00:06:26.258 --> 00:06:31.318 So, so that process, it was two cycles of action research before that final cycle. 00:06:31.458 --> 00:06:43.388 And so all our courses . Along the way, built up to that and that we even had to write a draft, very mini version, draft of the dissertation for our first cycle. 00:06:43.888 --> 00:06:48.588 Uh, treating the first cycle like it was a dissertation, obviously it was a very small version. 00:06:49.088 --> 00:06:58.428 And so just developing on that and continuing to read literature, um, and to implement those cycles and making changes from the 00:06:59.033 --> 00:07:05.933 How the intervention went, uh, just like in teaching, because really teachers, they do action research all the time. 00:07:06.463 --> 00:07:12.853 Maybe they don't think of it that way, or maybe they don't do it formally, but they, they do, they, they try something with their students. 00:07:13.323 --> 00:07:19.573 They measure that in some way, and then they look at that and see, hey, what, what could I do differently? 00:07:19.683 --> 00:07:20.533 What could I do better? 00:07:20.873 --> 00:07:24.613 And that's really how the action research dissertation worked as well. 00:07:25.713 --> 00:07:30.893 Jethro Jones: So did you have experience with Greg's trust-based observations protocol before? 00:07:31.428 --> 00:07:33.028 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: I, I didn't, I wish I had. 00:07:33.208 --> 00:07:39.508 Um, but I, I read his book in, in early 2021, just pretty soon after it was published, 00:07:39.763 --> 00:07:40.053 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:07:40.528 --> 00:07:44.028 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: And, um, we were in the middle of that fun covid stuff. 00:07:44.248 --> 00:07:54.338 Um, so I. Really couldn't, and I was still a principal then, so it really wasn't something that was reasonable for me to try, uh, with my own teachers. 00:07:54.438 --> 00:07:56.658 At that time, we were just surviving. 00:07:56.838 --> 00:08:05.898 Um, obviously we were doing everything the best we could for our students, and we did, uh, we all made it through, um, but it wasn't something I could really try. 00:08:06.198 --> 00:08:08.498 So, um, so I, uh. 00:08:09.478 --> 00:08:19.908 Right after, pretty soon after reading that book, um, I applied for the program with a SU and in, in our application, even in the narrative, you, you don't have to stick with this. 00:08:19.968 --> 00:08:30.503 It could change, it changed for a lot of my cohort members, but I. You kind of have to have an idea of what you think your problem with practice is and what might be an intervention for it. 00:08:30.503 --> 00:08:36.303 And I, I did, I was already thinking about TBO, um, but it was just based on reading his book. 00:08:36.763 --> 00:08:41.503 Uh, I did have the privilege of meeting him virtually, uh, uh, two years later. 00:08:42.003 --> 00:08:45.543 And then I did get to meet him in person, um, last year. 00:08:46.203 --> 00:08:52.503 Uh, and so we've been in touch, but to actually have had his training, um, I, I wish it could have been that way, but it. 00:08:52.858 --> 00:08:55.838 It didn't work that way, so it was entirely based on his book. 00:08:56.158 --> 00:09:07.608 Jethro Jones: okay, so that's really interesting too because you are, you are doing a dissertation on involving his process and um, and yet you haven't been through his actual training. 00:09:07.608 --> 00:09:09.208 You've just read his book. 00:09:09.328 --> 00:09:12.008 I think that's really a valuable thing because a lot of times. 00:09:13.243 --> 00:09:18.783 As educators, we feel like we have to like attend the training and get certified, as it were. 00:09:19.163 --> 00:09:20.703 And that's not necessarily the case. 00:09:21.123 --> 00:09:31.903 And especially when there's a good book written like Craig's book is, then it's, it's valuable to know that you can, you can just do stuff, you know? 00:09:32.363 --> 00:09:36.183 You can just, you can just take what you learned and apply what you learned and it actually works. 00:09:37.023 --> 00:09:40.473 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, I, I do highly recommend contacting him about his training. 00:09:40.973 --> 00:09:49.753 Um, I think that is the best possible way, but, um, there's something to be said for like what you're saying, a, a, a book study. 00:09:50.093 --> 00:09:58.673 We can do that anytime we, we can take any, any book with rich information and, and use it, uh, with teachers with our, um, 00:09:58.998 --> 00:10:09.888 With administrators and try to put into practice what that book is because we don't all have the possibilities of, of having a certain training, like you said, or that we have to have it. 00:10:10.308 --> 00:10:22.813 Um, and I think, um, I. Craig, I, I, I won't speak for him, but I, I believe he also sees his book in that, in that way that anybody could read his book and, and try this, um, and try TBO. 00:10:23.153 --> 00:10:24.613 So, so that's what I did. 00:10:24.873 --> 00:10:33.853 And, and I created, um, for my first two cycles of research, I, I worked with one principal and then with, uh, two principals and, uh, a group of teachers. 00:10:34.273 --> 00:10:44.863 And in both of those, . Um, it, I, I gave a one day, uh, workshops and it was based on his book, and then I followed up with him, um, met with them virtually. 00:10:45.243 --> 00:10:51.863 And then with my dissertation research, I had the whole, whole group of, uh, principals and the superintendent from this district. 00:10:52.243 --> 00:10:55.103 Um, one principal did the study with me, but. 00:10:55.713 --> 00:10:57.533 In the training, all of them were involved. 00:10:58.193 --> 00:11:12.373 And, um, I made that one three days and tried to make it more in depth, but it was entirely based on, um, uh, Craig's book, but also my literature review, all the literature that I, uh, read and research. 00:11:12.393 --> 00:11:13.773 And it's quite extensive. 00:11:13.773 --> 00:11:42.003 So that's, that's one of your biggest things with your dissertation . Um, but based on that, I, I showed where . How his, uh, the TBO approach to formative supervision, you know, as opposed to teacher summative evaluation, how that is, um, supported in the literature, in literature regarding formative supervision or instructional supervision, but also in trust building, trusting relationships in schools. 00:11:42.583 --> 00:11:46.323 And I based my workshop also on that information. 00:11:46.783 --> 00:11:50.363 Um, so showing the value behind the the TBO approach. 00:11:50.938 --> 00:11:52.548 Jethro Jones: Yeah, that's, that's really good. 00:11:53.315 --> 00:11:57.690 you have four research questions and . I wanna, I'm gonna read through those. 00:11:57.990 --> 00:12:06.810 Um, I'm striving really hard to just come with one research question, because I feel like that will be easier to answer one than four. 00:12:06.950 --> 00:12:18.090 So, uh, so before I read the questions, will you tell me why you chose, well, maybe I'll, I'll read the questions first, then you tell me why you chose four instead of just one, or, or how you came about that process. 00:12:18.870 --> 00:12:23.930 So first question is, how do administrators and teachers describe their experiences with formative supervision? 00:12:24.725 --> 00:12:31.650 Number two is how do administrators and teachers participating in a formative supervision intervention perceive its effects on teachers' professional growth? 00:12:32.400 --> 00:12:40.940 Number three, how do administrators and teachers participating in a formative supervision intervention perceive its effects on trusting administrator teacher relationships? 00:12:41.855 --> 00:12:54.915 And number four, how do administrators use formative supervision to build trusting administrator teacher relationships with respect to the facets of trust, including a benevolence, B, reliability, C, competence D, honesty, and E openness. 00:12:55.615 --> 00:12:55.875 All right. 00:12:55.875 --> 00:12:58.555 That sounds like a a lot to unpack there. 00:12:58.575 --> 00:13:01.875 So first, why didn't you just one of those to focus on. 00:13:02.800 --> 00:13:05.580 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Uh, because all, all aspects were important. 00:13:05.800 --> 00:13:12.140 So the first one, um, is very specifically focused on qualitative research. 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:22.580 Uh, and especially that I was not on campus with the principal and teachers as they implemented, uh, formative supervision, and in this case the TBO approach. 00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:23.380 So. 00:13:24.185 --> 00:13:45.885 The, the only way I was really going to be able to perceive their, their perceptions and really, um, understand where they might be coming from instead of projecting my own, uh, ideas about what, what this means and what it's like is for them telling me their experiences and my, my. 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:48.060 Uh, questions. 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:57.780 My interview questions were very open-ended, so it really, it was based on what they ended up saying and I would certainly, um, follow up to their questions. 00:13:58.520 --> 00:14:04.220 And then it became a, a natural conversation, actually, much like a reflective conversation in DVO. 00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:15.750 Um, so . So that was the only way to really, truly understand what was the impact or what their experience was like of using this formative supervision approach. 00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:16.590 Um. 00:14:17.830 --> 00:14:21.610 The other interesting thing with that is I used formative interviews. 00:14:22.350 --> 00:14:25.770 Uh, so it wasn't just like an interview at the end. 00:14:26.450 --> 00:14:38.810 I interviewed them several times along the way, so as they were implementing the intervention to, to see how that was going and my, my, uh. 00:14:39.670 --> 00:14:43.100 Additional or my following interviews. 00:14:44.210 --> 00:14:51.340 Some were somewhat based on the previous interviews after I, I analyzed the, the data from their, their interviews. 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:56.060 So, so that one was really important to have that overall experience. 00:14:56.730 --> 00:15:16.495 Then the next two questions are, were both quantitative and qualitative, and it was . Focused on how, uh, formative supervision, um, impacts the principals and tea teachers in, in two specific, uh, or two specific areas. 00:15:17.195 --> 00:15:22.295 And so one of 'em is what, how do they perceive it's affecting the teacher's professional growth? 00:15:22.755 --> 00:15:28.175 And the other is how do they perceive it's affecting their trusting administrator teacher relationships? 00:15:28.555 --> 00:15:54.690 So both of those were essential because . Both of those I had found as important in the literature and, um, as part of the TBO uh, approach, and also regarding my problem of practice of teacher evaluation systems not having much of an impact on teacher's professional growth or actually, um, diminishing the trust between administrators and teachers. 00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:57.410 So both of those were important to have. 00:15:57.520 --> 00:15:59.290 It's not like I could have one without the other. 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.180 And then I had the fourth one, which you might think, well, you've already asked about trust. 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:13.220 You don't need the fourth one, . But the fourth one, um, was both, uh, uh, was actually, um, qualitative and quantitative. 00:16:13.640 --> 00:16:17.500 Um, because I wanted to look specifically at what the 00:16:18.170 --> 00:16:29.910 The administrator did to build trusting relationships, not, not just how she perceives it or how her, her, uh, teachers perceive it if it is building trust, but what does she actually do? 00:16:30.690 --> 00:16:44.855 And in my review of the literature, I discovered, um, Shannon and, uh, Shannon and Hoy, um, their, uh, . Facets of trust, which are benevolence, reliability, competence, honesty, and openness. 00:16:45.555 --> 00:16:50.495 Um, and those are ways that, um, trust, trust is built. 00:16:50.755 --> 00:16:58.255 So, um, you know, if you're, you're honest with your, you know, so between supervisors and teachers, trust is going to be built. 00:16:58.555 --> 00:17:00.495 That's just a simple way to describe it. 00:17:01.140 --> 00:17:24.480 Uh, but I actually use those as, uh, both quantitative constructs in my surveys and, um, as qualitative, um, categories, uh, to, to, uh, group my, my, uh, data from the, from the interviews f from the things that the, um, teachers and the administrator said. 00:17:25.365 --> 00:17:25.655 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:17:25.955 --> 00:17:30.535 Uh, okay, well that's, that's definitely interesting and um, and. 00:17:32.245 --> 00:17:38.265 So move, moving on, uh, because this is where I think the, the real fascinating pieces you have. 00:17:38.485 --> 00:17:47.065 Um, towards the end you have some, uh, recommendations and, and, uh, conclusions that, uh, the people should draw. 00:17:47.365 --> 00:17:49.825 And I'm not gonna read through all of these. 00:17:50.165 --> 00:17:50.385 Um. 00:17:51.630 --> 00:17:53.920 Here, but there were a couple things that really stood out to me. 00:17:54.260 --> 00:18:01.440 Um, which , which I thought was just fantastic, and these are things that Craig and I have talked about as well. 00:18:02.245 --> 00:18:17.215 That, um, a lot of these frameworks and things that we adopt are actually actually hindrances to building trust and, and making people feel comfortable and enjoy their, their whole teaching process. 00:18:18.526 --> 00:18:20.266 So you have a few suggestions. 00:18:20.446 --> 00:18:21.666 I'm just gonna highlight a couple. 00:18:22.246 --> 00:18:25.866 Uh, you don't need to have pre and post observations anymore unless. 00:18:27.061 --> 00:18:28.741 Teachers and principals say that those are really vital. 00:18:29.481 --> 00:18:39.941 Um, you don't need to use the Danielson framework for example, anymore unless you feel like that's what people really need to have. 00:18:40.561 --> 00:18:40.781 Um. 00:18:41.716 --> 00:18:47.246 Then you don't need to have like, uh, documented lesson plans and things like that. 00:18:47.826 --> 00:18:59.566 Um, but you should continue goal setting and you should continue, uh, having these reflective conversations and, uh, ideally the TBO approach specifically since that's what you used. 00:19:00.346 --> 00:19:03.766 And so this overall recommendation is the one that I will read. 00:19:03.786 --> 00:19:04.606 You say last. 00:19:04.686 --> 00:19:08.326 I have an overall recommendation for my participating district and other Arizona districts. 00:19:08.676 --> 00:19:14.856 Instead of using evaluations, the medium to support teacher's professional growth, use formative supervision. 00:19:14.856 --> 00:19:28.576 Ideally, the trust-based observations approach with consistent cycles of informal observations, followed by reflective conversations, guided by non-directive, collaborative, caring, honest and open approaches to feedback focused on the teacher's perspective, reflections and strengths. 00:19:29.196 --> 00:19:34.776 And what I love about that is that that gets to the human element of teaching. 00:19:35.206 --> 00:19:36.616 What else would you add to that? 00:19:37.176 --> 00:19:37.296 I. 00:19:38.216 --> 00:19:43.116 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Um, I think, uh, specifically the. 00:19:44.586 --> 00:19:49.046 The non collab, I'm sorry, the collaborative and non-directive approaches. 00:19:49.666 --> 00:19:55.606 Uh, I think it would be valuable for administrators to really look into those, what those involve. 00:19:55.606 --> 00:20:00.566 Obviously it's all in my dissertation, , which maybe is a lot to read. 00:20:00.866 --> 00:20:12.006 Um, but, um, I, I would recommend that they, um, read, uh, let me find the exact title so they can, um. 00:20:14.071 --> 00:20:14.431 Consider it. 00:20:15.631 --> 00:20:17.711 I had it listed here. 00:20:20.946 --> 00:20:21.236 Okay. 00:20:21.696 --> 00:20:33.916 So I would recommend that they, in addition to, of course, Craig Randall's trust base observations, um, that they read, uh, supervision and instructional leadership, a developmental approach by Glickman Etal. 00:20:34.056 --> 00:20:38.476 Um, and I, the addition I used in, in my dissertation was 2018. 00:20:39.176 --> 00:20:40.636 Um, but there's newer ones. 00:20:40.676 --> 00:20:41.196 I, I believe, 00:20:41.446 --> 00:20:43.316 Maybe 2021 was the most recent. 00:20:43.916 --> 00:20:45.276 I there could be a newer one. 00:20:45.656 --> 00:20:55.556 Um, but this really, it, it's, it's technically a, a textbook for an an ed leadership course, but it really is, gets at the developmental supervision approach. 00:20:56.216 --> 00:21:11.021 Um, and that's what . Craig's TBO does is the idea of focusing on the teacher's reflections, the teacher's perspective, um, and not just that you, the administrator is the expert. 00:21:11.561 --> 00:21:15.741 The the teacher is the expert, the teacher is the expert of his or her own classroom. 00:21:17.126 --> 00:21:19.466 And so it's really valuable what they think. 00:21:19.486 --> 00:21:31.386 And so that's why in the TBO intervention, it, a reflective conversation starts with, um, a reflective question is, what were you doing to help the, the, the students learn And it's. 00:21:31.916 --> 00:21:49.336 It starts with the teacher bringing that up, not, not the administrator reading off their, their sheet or, or even saying, well, you know, yeah, I'm gonna do the feedback sandwich where I'm gonna tell you something great and then tell you something you need to work on or , and then follow it up with something great again. 00:21:49.516 --> 00:21:51.536 So you'll just feel really good about yourself. 00:21:51.916 --> 00:21:53.536 Um, that's so inauthentic. 00:21:53.606 --> 00:22:09.176 Instead, if you ask . The teacher, this reflective question, it is very authentic because it is the teacher starting with that and really the developmental, uh, supervision approaches of being non-directive and collaborative, um, that is exactly what it is. 00:22:09.596 --> 00:22:10.696 Um, and it's keep. 00:22:11.661 --> 00:22:19.531 There are times when you need to do a more directive approach, or there may be a certain situation, a certain teacher, a really new teacher perhaps. 00:22:20.071 --> 00:22:25.611 Um, but even a directive approach doesn't have to be, um, authoritative or threatening. 00:22:25.991 --> 00:22:36.811 Um, but the idea with TBO and um, what I saw with developmental supervision is that you, you come to the, you, you keep in mind that, um, 00:22:37.946 --> 00:22:46.276 That any teacher you could use the non-directive approach, that's what you start with, and then you see if something more or different is needed. 00:22:46.656 --> 00:22:51.276 So you give every teacher a benefit of the doubt that they don't need you to be directive. 00:22:51.926 --> 00:23:02.216 Jethro Jones: Yeah, I, I really like that and I think that's a good way to, to sum it up, but that's really valuable and powerful for everybody involved, and it makes everybody feel better about the whole situation. 00:23:02.816 --> 00:23:09.736 I went to a district where teachers were required to turn in their lesson plans every week, and I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. 00:23:10.056 --> 00:23:13.656 I was like, there's no way I'm gonna look at any of these lesson plans. 00:23:14.366 --> 00:23:15.106 And I didn't. 00:23:15.286 --> 00:23:17.266 And so then I was like, why do we turn these in? 00:23:17.266 --> 00:23:19.906 And everybody was like, 'cause that's what we've always done. 00:23:20.126 --> 00:23:24.146 And I said, who's gonna get, who's gonna get me in trouble if we don't do this? 00:23:24.486 --> 00:23:26.146 And nobody could point to anybody. 00:23:26.166 --> 00:23:28.146 So I said, okay, we're not collecting these anymore. 00:23:28.476 --> 00:23:28.826 There. 00:23:28.926 --> 00:23:29.946 You don't have to turn these in. 00:23:30.326 --> 00:23:34.026 And the teaching did not go downhill at all. 00:23:34.446 --> 00:23:34.746 You know? 00:23:34.846 --> 00:23:36.426 In fact, I think it went uphill because. 00:23:37.346 --> 00:23:41.196 They weren't wasting time on these stupid lesson plans that I didn't need to see. 00:23:41.656 --> 00:23:46.076 And so I took a, a different approach and that made things so much better. 00:23:46.456 --> 00:23:54.056 And in regards to the, to the insult sandwich, which is what I call it, because we don't, we don't call things by the bread. 00:23:54.156 --> 00:23:55.416 We call 'em by the meat, right? 00:23:55.831 --> 00:23:56.451 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Oh my goodness. 00:23:56.631 --> 00:23:56.851 Yes. 00:23:56.936 --> 00:24:00.796 Jethro Jones: You have a ham sandwich, you don't have a whole wheat sandwich, right? 00:24:01.256 --> 00:24:05.116 So saying a compliment sandwich is really disingenuous. 00:24:05.316 --> 00:24:09.316 'cause we would never, you know, never put the, the, the stuff in the middle. 00:24:09.496 --> 00:24:13.756 So, um, anyway, so I call that an insult sandwich because that's really what it is. 00:24:14.016 --> 00:24:18.596 Or you could say a, a criticism sandwich, whatever the thing is. 00:24:19.176 --> 00:24:21.596 You know, those things don't work anyway, so don't use 'em. 00:24:21.856 --> 00:24:22.076 Um. 00:24:23.816 --> 00:24:25.826 Well, this has been really good. 00:24:26.126 --> 00:24:33.066 You've, you've helped me understand some things and answered questions that I didn't even ask, but you answered through your conversation. 00:24:33.126 --> 00:24:40.746 So my last question, Valerie, is what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a transformative leader like you? 00:24:42.076 --> 00:24:42.656 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Oh, thank you. 00:24:42.996 --> 00:24:58.336 Um, I would say, uh, if they aren't already start talking and meeting with their teachers, um, I. Build up to it if, if you have to, um, in that, yeah, there's those hallway conversations. 00:24:58.476 --> 00:25:05.136 Uh, start the day by just stopping by a few rooms at a time perhaps, and just is asking how they're doing. 00:25:05.756 --> 00:25:09.736 Um, and uh, and then I. 00:25:10.156 --> 00:25:11.096 Trying to implement. 00:25:11.101 --> 00:25:26.121 And I do recommend, uh, Craig Landells TBO approach, but implement for formative supervision, seeing how they can start to get into classrooms for longer amounts of time for 20 minutes, not just the three to five classroom walkthrough, uh, typical walkthrough. 00:25:26.661 --> 00:25:32.161 Um, and then, uh, using that to meet with teachers for reflective conversations. 00:25:32.941 --> 00:25:40.181 Um, and I think . They've got to look at how they use their time, which was was a, an. 00:25:41.096 --> 00:25:45.236 Uh, finding in my study and in my own experience, it is, it is so hard. 00:25:45.296 --> 00:25:47.476 It, it, how do you find the time? 00:25:48.216 --> 00:25:57.036 Um, but if they look at the, like, uh, Craig Randall's, TBO ideas and also, uh, Justin Bader has ideas about managing time. 00:25:57.556 --> 00:26:00.916 I, I wish there was more out there, uh, in my, my dissertation. 00:26:01.036 --> 00:26:08.236 I did note that I, I feel it would be great if there were more, uh, uh, studies on, on this, on how. 00:26:09.106 --> 00:26:17.616 There are studies on how principals use their time, um, but not studies on how they make the time or create the time. 00:26:17.776 --> 00:26:24.216 I, I guess you can't make the time, um, like I think Justin Bader said, but how that time I. 00:26:24.436 --> 00:26:39.526 Happens how you re rearrange things, restructure things, do these different strategies so that you can have that time for the formative supervision because it is the most valuable thing you can do as an instructional leader, as a transformative, uh, principal. 00:26:39.836 --> 00:26:49.606 It's, it's the most important thing because you building relationships with your teachers, you knowing what's happening in their classrooms, you knowing what their perspectives are on that and them. 00:26:49.966 --> 00:27:07.316 Being, feeling comfortable in asking for your support and asking for your ideas, and having normal conversations between each other that, that are, uh, reflective and actually have an impact that that leads to the students succeeding in the classrooms. 00:27:07.316 --> 00:27:08.876 And that's what education's all about. 00:27:09.816 --> 00:27:10.036 So. 00:27:11.066 --> 00:27:11.826 Jethro Jones: a absolutely. 00:27:11.906 --> 00:27:12.906 I, I appreciate that. 00:27:12.966 --> 00:27:14.506 And what I'll add to that is. 00:27:15.261 --> 00:27:19.401 At the beginning of my principal career, I thought I needed to do observations all the time. 00:27:19.461 --> 00:27:24.361 So I was in teachers' classrooms constantly and, and I spent a lot of time there. 00:27:24.461 --> 00:27:29.361 And then by the end, I realized that I didn't need to be in their classroom when students were in there. 00:27:29.801 --> 00:27:40.121 I needed to be in their classrooms talking with them and building trust and having reflective conversations, or I call them, uh, self-discovery, uh, conversations. 00:27:40.941 --> 00:27:43.521 And what was really powerful about that is that. 00:27:44.296 --> 00:27:59.176 I didn't need to go do observations, uh, really that often because I was building, I knew what was going on because they were talking to me and telling me what was going on and sharing the wins and the losses and the failures and the successes, and that was really powerful. 00:27:59.236 --> 00:28:01.536 So this has been a great conversation, Valerie. 00:28:01.536 --> 00:28:04.336 Thank you so much for being part of transformative principle. 00:28:04.796 --> 00:28:10.016 Um, and, uh, if anybody wants your dissertation, they can just reach out to you, right? 00:28:10.276 --> 00:28:11.496 Is that that the best thing? 00:28:11.971 --> 00:28:13.031 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: yes, they, they can. 00:28:13.291 --> 00:28:19.751 Um, also, um, it's published through ProQuest, but maybe not everyone has direct access to ProQuest. 00:28:20.191 --> 00:28:24.031 ProQuest if they, um, look me up. 00:28:24.251 --> 00:28:24.471 Um. 00:28:25.481 --> 00:28:32.181 If they type Valerie dissertation, uh, should be able to find it on academia.edu. 00:28:32.381 --> 00:28:33.381 I have shared it there. 00:28:33.801 --> 00:28:40.181 Um, it's also on ResearchGate, so it's freely available for, um, for anyone to read. 00:28:40.951 --> 00:28:41.241 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:28:41.311 --> 00:28:41.761 Very good. 00:28:41.911 --> 00:28:51.681 Well, uh, I will definitely put a link to, uh, your academia.edu uh, page, uh, in the show notes here so people can reach out that way as well. 00:28:51.681 --> 00:28:53.921 Thank you so much for being part of transformative principle. 00:28:54.311 --> 00:28:55.061 Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Thank you so much. 00:28:55.061 --> 00:28:55.581 Death row. 00:28:55.611 --> 00:28:56.141 It's been great.