Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I am your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
Alright, well Welcome to the podcast.
I'm so excited to have Dr. Valerie Dore.
Uh, I don't know.
, we'll go with it.
, she's been a educator for 27 years, including 15 years as a school principal and 22 years in providing teacher training and professional development.
She recently completed her, uh, doctorate in leadership and innovation from Arizona State University.
Um, and she talked about she do dissertation on the trust-based observation protocol, which if you've been . Listening to this, uh, podcast, you know about, uh, Craig Randall, who, who I've had on the program and his, uh, excellent work around that.
And so we're gonna talk a little bit about this.
And I'm gonna be honest, I'm using this as a session to help me in my dissertation process.
So many of you know that I'm working on my doctor right now.
I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do.
So Valerie has graciously agreed, having just finished her recently and gone through that torment.
To gimme some, uh, ideas and, and thoughts.
And so we're gonna talk a lot about Craig's stuff, but we're also gonna apply it to me and I'm gonna use this selfishly.
So, Valerie, welcome to Transformative Principle.
Thanks for being here.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Thank you, Jetro.
I am really excited to be here.
Jethro Jones: All right, well, uh, one of the things that I love about doing.
This podcast is that I get to talk to people who are super smart, but that maybe people don't actually know about.
And um, you might be one of those people you're doing good work in, um, the Apache Reservation in Arizona and it's awesome that you're doing that, but that probably does not get you a lot of national and out there exposure.
So.
Um, so why don't we start by you telling me a little bit about your work on the reservation, where you started your career, and where you're at now.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, so I, I started, um, as a third grade teacher in January, 1998.
It was my first, uh, teaching job, and I moved from my small town other, a different town in Arizona to, um, white River, Arizona on the White Mountain Apache Reservation.
And, um, I, I taught as a third grade teacher for six and a half years.
And I was really, uh, privileged to have a lot of amazing professional development and supportive administrators, supervisors, and so I was able to, um, in addition to getting my, my master's degree from Northern Arizona University, I was able to move up in, in the district.
So I was a district school improvement specialist and an assistant principal.
. And then I got to return to my, my school where I had originally been a teacher as its principal.
And I, uh, total, total time in White River was, um, at that time was 13 and a half years.
Then I went elsewhere for 10 years.
And, um, I, I've been back for the past four years.
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
Very cool.
And, um, I, I really appreciate when people are committed to a community like you obviously are, and I think that's really powerful.
So, um, tell us, I, I know this is going to be tough because you, you wrote like 190 pages on this topic, but tell, give us a brief overview of what your dissertation was about and what you were going for.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, just to correct you, it is almost 300 pages.
But
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: I, I guess that's with the, um, I. Well, yeah, that's with the y the addendum, you know, the appendices.
What?
Yeah, that's what they're called.
Um, you'll, you'll, you'll soon find out.
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
Well, according to mine, 2 98 in my P read,
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: yes.
That, that is.
Jethro Jones: I.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, I said almost so . Um, uh, yeah, so, so the process, first of all with my program with Arizona State University, um, it's the EDD and Leadership and Innovation Program, and it's a three and a half year cohort.
Um, where, uh, practitioners, uh, we.
We implement action research in our, in our own settings.
I actually did not do my research in my, my current district, um, in a different district.
But the idea is, um, actually engaging in an intervention to solve a problem of practice.
Um, so it is not just.
S uh, putting together a survey and, and maybe you, you have hundreds of people that answer your survey, which is, is great.
Um, and will certainly, uh.
Learn a lot about whatever that that problem may be or whatever that research may be, and be able to impact practice.
But the great thing about action research is it really does impact practice because you're actually doing it within the setting and you're part of, of that setting.
So.
The, the program was really great because it, it built up to the final dissertation cycle because, uh, even in the second year, we already started doing action research cycles.
So I did two cycles of action research, um, with this district before I. Before I was in the final year, um, which is the third year.
But it really, with the timing, it's, it, it comes out to three and a half . And as long as you stick with your cohort, you, you get to, you do it in that time, you know?
So I did manage to do that.
It was, it was amazing.
And it was great because.
The cohort that I was involved with, we really got to know each other.
It was online, uh, you know, virtually a lot with zooms and so on, but we really got to know each other, um, and really help each other.
So, so that process, it was two cycles of action research before that final cycle.
And so all our courses . Along the way, built up to that and that we even had to write a draft, very mini version, draft of the dissertation for our first cycle.
Uh, treating the first cycle like it was a dissertation, obviously it was a very small version.
And so just developing on that and continuing to read literature, um, and to implement those cycles and making changes from the
How the intervention went, uh, just like in teaching, because really teachers, they do action research all the time.
Maybe they don't think of it that way, or maybe they don't do it formally, but they, they do, they, they try something with their students.
They measure that in some way, and then they look at that and see, hey, what, what could I do differently?
What could I do better?
And that's really how the action research dissertation worked as well.
Jethro Jones: So did you have experience with Greg's trust-based observations protocol before?
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: I, I didn't, I wish I had.
Um, but I, I read his book in, in early 2021, just pretty soon after it was published,
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: And, um, we were in the middle of that fun covid stuff.
Um, so I. Really couldn't, and I was still a principal then, so it really wasn't something that was reasonable for me to try, uh, with my own teachers.
At that time, we were just surviving.
Um, obviously we were doing everything the best we could for our students, and we did, uh, we all made it through, um, but it wasn't something I could really try.
So, um, so I, uh.
Right after, pretty soon after reading that book, um, I applied for the program with a SU and in, in our application, even in the narrative, you, you don't have to stick with this.
It could change, it changed for a lot of my cohort members, but I. You kind of have to have an idea of what you think your problem with practice is and what might be an intervention for it.
And I, I did, I was already thinking about TBO, um, but it was just based on reading his book.
Uh, I did have the privilege of meeting him virtually, uh, uh, two years later.
And then I did get to meet him in person, um, last year.
Uh, and so we've been in touch, but to actually have had his training, um, I, I wish it could have been that way, but it.
It didn't work that way, so it was entirely based on his book.
Jethro Jones: okay, so that's really interesting too because you are, you are doing a dissertation on involving his process and um, and yet you haven't been through his actual training.
You've just read his book.
I think that's really a valuable thing because a lot of times.
As educators, we feel like we have to like attend the training and get certified, as it were.
And that's not necessarily the case.
And especially when there's a good book written like Craig's book is, then it's, it's valuable to know that you can, you can just do stuff, you know?
You can just, you can just take what you learned and apply what you learned and it actually works.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Yeah, I, I do highly recommend contacting him about his training.
Um, I think that is the best possible way, but, um, there's something to be said for like what you're saying, a, a, a book study.
We can do that anytime we, we can take any, any book with rich information and, and use it, uh, with teachers with our, um,
With administrators and try to put into practice what that book is because we don't all have the possibilities of, of having a certain training, like you said, or that we have to have it.
Um, and I think, um, I. Craig, I, I, I won't speak for him, but I, I believe he also sees his book in that, in that way that anybody could read his book and, and try this, um, and try TBO.
So, so that's what I did.
And, and I created, um, for my first two cycles of research, I, I worked with one principal and then with, uh, two principals and, uh, a group of teachers.
And in both of those, . Um, it, I, I gave a one day, uh, workshops and it was based on his book, and then I followed up with him, um, met with them virtually.
And then with my dissertation research, I had the whole, whole group of, uh, principals and the superintendent from this district.
Um, one principal did the study with me, but.
In the training, all of them were involved.
And, um, I made that one three days and tried to make it more in depth, but it was entirely based on, um, uh, Craig's book, but also my literature review, all the literature that I, uh, read and research.
And it's quite extensive.
So that's, that's one of your biggest things with your dissertation . Um, but based on that, I, I showed where . How his, uh, the TBO approach to formative supervision, you know, as opposed to teacher summative evaluation, how that is, um, supported in the literature, in literature regarding formative supervision or instructional supervision, but also in trust building, trusting relationships in schools.
And I based my workshop also on that information.
Um, so showing the value behind the the TBO approach.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, that's, that's really good.
you have four research questions and . I wanna, I'm gonna read through those.
Um, I'm striving really hard to just come with one research question, because I feel like that will be easier to answer one than four.
So, uh, so before I read the questions, will you tell me why you chose, well, maybe I'll, I'll read the questions first, then you tell me why you chose four instead of just one, or, or how you came about that process.
So first question is, how do administrators and teachers describe their experiences with formative supervision?
Number two is how do administrators and teachers participating in a formative supervision intervention perceive its effects on teachers' professional growth?
Number three, how do administrators and teachers participating in a formative supervision intervention perceive its effects on trusting administrator teacher relationships?
And number four, how do administrators use formative supervision to build trusting administrator teacher relationships with respect to the facets of trust, including a benevolence, B, reliability, C, competence D, honesty, and E openness.
All right.
That sounds like a a lot to unpack there.
So first, why didn't you just one of those to focus on.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Uh, because all, all aspects were important.
So the first one, um, is very specifically focused on qualitative research.
Uh, and especially that I was not on campus with the principal and teachers as they implemented, uh, formative supervision, and in this case the TBO approach.
So.
The, the only way I was really going to be able to perceive their, their perceptions and really, um, understand where they might be coming from instead of projecting my own, uh, ideas about what, what this means and what it's like is for them telling me their experiences and my, my.
Uh, questions.
My interview questions were very open-ended, so it really, it was based on what they ended up saying and I would certainly, um, follow up to their questions.
And then it became a, a natural conversation, actually, much like a reflective conversation in DVO.
Um, so . So that was the only way to really, truly understand what was the impact or what their experience was like of using this formative supervision approach.
Um.
The other interesting thing with that is I used formative interviews.
Uh, so it wasn't just like an interview at the end.
I interviewed them several times along the way, so as they were implementing the intervention to, to see how that was going and my, my, uh.
Additional or my following interviews.
Some were somewhat based on the previous interviews after I, I analyzed the, the data from their, their interviews.
So, so that one was really important to have that overall experience.
Then the next two questions are, were both quantitative and qualitative, and it was . Focused on how, uh, formative supervision, um, impacts the principals and tea teachers in, in two specific, uh, or two specific areas.
And so one of 'em is what, how do they perceive it's affecting the teacher's professional growth?
And the other is how do they perceive it's affecting their trusting administrator teacher relationships?
So both of those were essential because . Both of those I had found as important in the literature and, um, as part of the TBO uh, approach, and also regarding my problem of practice of teacher evaluation systems not having much of an impact on teacher's professional growth or actually, um, diminishing the trust between administrators and teachers.
So both of those were important to have.
It's not like I could have one without the other.
And then I had the fourth one, which you might think, well, you've already asked about trust.
You don't need the fourth one, . But the fourth one, um, was both, uh, uh, was actually, um, qualitative and quantitative.
Um, because I wanted to look specifically at what the
The administrator did to build trusting relationships, not, not just how she perceives it or how her, her, uh, teachers perceive it if it is building trust, but what does she actually do?
And in my review of the literature, I discovered, um, Shannon and, uh, Shannon and Hoy, um, their, uh, . Facets of trust, which are benevolence, reliability, competence, honesty, and openness.
Um, and those are ways that, um, trust, trust is built.
So, um, you know, if you're, you're honest with your, you know, so between supervisors and teachers, trust is going to be built.
That's just a simple way to describe it.
Uh, but I actually use those as, uh, both quantitative constructs in my surveys and, um, as qualitative, um, categories, uh, to, to, uh, group my, my, uh, data from the, from the interviews f from the things that the, um, teachers and the administrator said.
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
Uh, okay, well that's, that's definitely interesting and um, and.
So move, moving on, uh, because this is where I think the, the real fascinating pieces you have.
Um, towards the end you have some, uh, recommendations and, and, uh, conclusions that, uh, the people should draw.
And I'm not gonna read through all of these.
Um.
Here, but there were a couple things that really stood out to me.
Um, which , which I thought was just fantastic, and these are things that Craig and I have talked about as well.
That, um, a lot of these frameworks and things that we adopt are actually actually hindrances to building trust and, and making people feel comfortable and enjoy their, their whole teaching process.
So you have a few suggestions.
I'm just gonna highlight a couple.
Uh, you don't need to have pre and post observations anymore unless.
Teachers and principals say that those are really vital.
Um, you don't need to use the Danielson framework for example, anymore unless you feel like that's what people really need to have.
Um.
Then you don't need to have like, uh, documented lesson plans and things like that.
Um, but you should continue goal setting and you should continue, uh, having these reflective conversations and, uh, ideally the TBO approach specifically since that's what you used.
And so this overall recommendation is the one that I will read.
You say last.
I have an overall recommendation for my participating district and other Arizona districts.
Instead of using evaluations, the medium to support teacher's professional growth, use formative supervision.
Ideally, the trust-based observations approach with consistent cycles of informal observations, followed by reflective conversations, guided by non-directive, collaborative, caring, honest and open approaches to feedback focused on the teacher's perspective, reflections and strengths.
And what I love about that is that that gets to the human element of teaching.
What else would you add to that?
I.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Um, I think, uh, specifically the.
The non collab, I'm sorry, the collaborative and non-directive approaches.
Uh, I think it would be valuable for administrators to really look into those, what those involve.
Obviously it's all in my dissertation, , which maybe is a lot to read.
Um, but, um, I, I would recommend that they, um, read, uh, let me find the exact title so they can, um.
Consider it.
I had it listed here.
Okay.
So I would recommend that they, in addition to, of course, Craig Randall's trust base observations, um, that they read, uh, supervision and instructional leadership, a developmental approach by Glickman Etal.
Um, and I, the addition I used in, in my dissertation was 2018.
Um, but there's newer ones.
I, I believe,
Maybe 2021 was the most recent.
I there could be a newer one.
Um, but this really, it, it's, it's technically a, a textbook for an an ed leadership course, but it really is, gets at the developmental supervision approach.
Um, and that's what . Craig's TBO does is the idea of focusing on the teacher's reflections, the teacher's perspective, um, and not just that you, the administrator is the expert.
The the teacher is the expert, the teacher is the expert of his or her own classroom.
And so it's really valuable what they think.
And so that's why in the TBO intervention, it, a reflective conversation starts with, um, a reflective question is, what were you doing to help the, the, the students learn And it's.
It starts with the teacher bringing that up, not, not the administrator reading off their, their sheet or, or even saying, well, you know, yeah, I'm gonna do the feedback sandwich where I'm gonna tell you something great and then tell you something you need to work on or , and then follow it up with something great again.
So you'll just feel really good about yourself.
Um, that's so inauthentic.
Instead, if you ask . The teacher, this reflective question, it is very authentic because it is the teacher starting with that and really the developmental, uh, supervision approaches of being non-directive and collaborative, um, that is exactly what it is.
Um, and it's keep.
There are times when you need to do a more directive approach, or there may be a certain situation, a certain teacher, a really new teacher perhaps.
Um, but even a directive approach doesn't have to be, um, authoritative or threatening.
Um, but the idea with TBO and um, what I saw with developmental supervision is that you, you come to the, you, you keep in mind that, um,
That any teacher you could use the non-directive approach, that's what you start with, and then you see if something more or different is needed.
So you give every teacher a benefit of the doubt that they don't need you to be directive.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, I, I really like that and I think that's a good way to, to sum it up, but that's really valuable and powerful for everybody involved, and it makes everybody feel better about the whole situation.
I went to a district where teachers were required to turn in their lesson plans every week, and I thought it was the dumbest thing ever.
I was like, there's no way I'm gonna look at any of these lesson plans.
And I didn't.
And so then I was like, why do we turn these in?
And everybody was like, 'cause that's what we've always done.
And I said, who's gonna get, who's gonna get me in trouble if we don't do this?
And nobody could point to anybody.
So I said, okay, we're not collecting these anymore.
There.
You don't have to turn these in.
And the teaching did not go downhill at all.
You know?
In fact, I think it went uphill because.
They weren't wasting time on these stupid lesson plans that I didn't need to see.
And so I took a, a different approach and that made things so much better.
And in regards to the, to the insult sandwich, which is what I call it, because we don't, we don't call things by the bread.
We call 'em by the meat, right?
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Oh my goodness.
Yes.
Jethro Jones: You have a ham sandwich, you don't have a whole wheat sandwich, right?
So saying a compliment sandwich is really disingenuous.
'cause we would never, you know, never put the, the, the stuff in the middle.
So, um, anyway, so I call that an insult sandwich because that's really what it is.
Or you could say a, a criticism sandwich, whatever the thing is.
You know, those things don't work anyway, so don't use 'em.
Um.
Well, this has been really good.
You've, you've helped me understand some things and answered questions that I didn't even ask, but you answered through your conversation.
So my last question, Valerie, is what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a transformative leader like you?
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Oh, thank you.
Um, I would say, uh, if they aren't already start talking and meeting with their teachers, um, I. Build up to it if, if you have to, um, in that, yeah, there's those hallway conversations.
Uh, start the day by just stopping by a few rooms at a time perhaps, and just is asking how they're doing.
Um, and uh, and then I.
Trying to implement.
And I do recommend, uh, Craig Landells TBO approach, but implement for formative supervision, seeing how they can start to get into classrooms for longer amounts of time for 20 minutes, not just the three to five classroom walkthrough, uh, typical walkthrough.
Um, and then, uh, using that to meet with teachers for reflective conversations.
Um, and I think . They've got to look at how they use their time, which was was a, an.
Uh, finding in my study and in my own experience, it is, it is so hard.
It, it, how do you find the time?
Um, but if they look at the, like, uh, Craig Randall's, TBO ideas and also, uh, Justin Bader has ideas about managing time.
I, I wish there was more out there, uh, in my, my dissertation.
I did note that I, I feel it would be great if there were more, uh, uh, studies on, on this, on how.
There are studies on how principals use their time, um, but not studies on how they make the time or create the time.
I, I guess you can't make the time, um, like I think Justin Bader said, but how that time I.
Happens how you re rearrange things, restructure things, do these different strategies so that you can have that time for the formative supervision because it is the most valuable thing you can do as an instructional leader, as a transformative, uh, principal.
It's, it's the most important thing because you building relationships with your teachers, you knowing what's happening in their classrooms, you knowing what their perspectives are on that and them.
Being, feeling comfortable in asking for your support and asking for your ideas, and having normal conversations between each other that, that are, uh, reflective and actually have an impact that that leads to the students succeeding in the classrooms.
And that's what education's all about.
So.
Jethro Jones: a absolutely.
I, I appreciate that.
And what I'll add to that is.
At the beginning of my principal career, I thought I needed to do observations all the time.
So I was in teachers' classrooms constantly and, and I spent a lot of time there.
And then by the end, I realized that I didn't need to be in their classroom when students were in there.
I needed to be in their classrooms talking with them and building trust and having reflective conversations, or I call them, uh, self-discovery, uh, conversations.
And what was really powerful about that is that.
I didn't need to go do observations, uh, really that often because I was building, I knew what was going on because they were talking to me and telling me what was going on and sharing the wins and the losses and the failures and the successes, and that was really powerful.
So this has been a great conversation, Valerie.
Thank you so much for being part of transformative principle.
Um, and, uh, if anybody wants your dissertation, they can just reach out to you, right?
Is that that the best thing?
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: yes, they, they can.
Um, also, um, it's published through ProQuest, but maybe not everyone has direct access to ProQuest.
ProQuest if they, um, look me up.
Um.
If they type Valerie dissertation, uh, should be able to find it on academia.edu.
I have shared it there.
Um, it's also on ResearchGate, so it's freely available for, um, for anyone to read.
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
Very good.
Well, uh, I will definitely put a link to, uh, your academia.edu uh, page, uh, in the show notes here so people can reach out that way as well.
Thank you so much for being part of transformative principle.
Dr. Valerie Dehombreux: Thank you so much.
Death row.
It's been great.