1 01:00:00,208 --> 01:00:01,083 Alright, hey everybody! 2 01:00:01,666 --> 01:00:03,291 So Brave has released a minimal, 3 01:00:03,291 --> 01:00:04,708 but a paid version of their browser. 4 01:00:04,958 --> 01:00:06,083 That's very interesting, we're gonna talk about that. 5 01:00:06,833 --> 01:00:08,958 Meta has started keylogging their employees. 6 01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:12,375 And we're finally gonna talk about Anthropic Smithos tool. 7 01:00:12,375 --> 01:00:13,500 And all this and more coming in this 8 01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:15,583 week in Privacy Number 50, so stay tuned. 9 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,625 (Music) 10 01:00:38,416 --> 01:00:41,500 Welcome back to This Week in Privacy, our weekly series where we 11 01:00:41,500 --> 01:00:43,958 discuss the latest updates with what we're working on within the 12 01:00:43,958 --> 01:00:45,708 Privacy Guides community and this week's 13 01:00:45,708 --> 01:00:47,750 top stories in data privacy and cybersecurity. 14 01:00:48,500 --> 01:00:51,416 I am Nate, and joining me this week is a very special guest, Kerry 15 01:00:51,416 --> 01:00:54,250 Parker, the host of Firewall's Don't Stop Dragons. 16 01:00:54,958 --> 01:00:56,458 So thank you for joining us this week. 17 01:00:56,458 --> 01:00:57,041 Kerry, how are you? 18 01:00:57,708 --> 01:00:58,458 Hey man, I'm really glad to be here. 19 01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:00,916 We just did this recently when you guys were on my show, so it 20 01:01:00,916 --> 01:01:02,833 seems like only natural for me to come on yours. 21 01:01:03,250 --> 01:01:04,500 I'm really looking forward to this. 22 01:01:04,500 --> 01:01:04,875 This is great. 23 01:01:05,125 --> 01:01:06,333 So thanks for inviting me. 24 01:01:06,333 --> 01:01:07,208 This is gonna be a good time. 25 01:01:07,875 --> 01:01:09,041 Yeah, I'm super excited. 26 01:01:09,250 --> 01:01:11,583 I've definitely been wanting to collaborate with you on something 27 01:01:11,583 --> 01:01:14,500 for quite a while, and I'm glad we're able to make this happen now. 28 01:01:14,791 --> 01:01:15,625 Yeah, me too, for sure. 29 01:01:17,375 --> 01:01:20,416 Alright, with that, we'll go ahead and jump straight into the news. 30 01:01:20,416 --> 01:01:25,041 And we're gonna start off with a pretty hot story that has gotten a 31 01:01:25,041 --> 01:01:27,875 lot of discussion this week, which is Brave Origin. 32 01:01:28,666 --> 01:01:31,583 So for those of you who have not heard, which is weird, because 33 01:01:31,583 --> 01:01:33,666 Brave didn't make a blog post, I don't think. 34 01:01:34,333 --> 01:01:37,500 I don't know what their official method of 35 01:01:37,500 --> 01:01:40,708 distributing this news was, but Brave Origin. 36 01:01:40,958 --> 01:01:41,750 So the Brave browser, 37 01:01:43,041 --> 01:01:44,750 as many of you may know, is a little 38 01:01:44,750 --> 01:01:46,208 bit controversial for a lot of reasons. 39 01:01:46,750 --> 01:01:49,458 And one of the reasons is that it just comes with a lot of stuff 40 01:01:49,458 --> 01:01:51,416 that some people don't necessarily want. 41 01:01:51,500 --> 01:01:54,458 I think it comes with a ton of crypto integration. 42 01:01:54,708 --> 01:01:56,791 It comes with an AI assistant called Leo. 43 01:01:58,166 --> 01:01:59,500 I think those are kind of the two most 44 01:01:59,500 --> 01:02:01,208 controversial ones, but you know, stuff like that. 45 01:02:01,958 --> 01:02:05,250 And some people, you can disable it, you can ignore it, but some 46 01:02:05,250 --> 01:02:07,416 people still argue like you shouldn't be there in the first place. 47 01:02:07,416 --> 01:02:09,000 And so now Brave has announced this new 48 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,500 browser that they're calling Brave Origin. 49 01:02:12,208 --> 01:02:14,916 And it strips all of that stuff out. 50 01:02:16,625 --> 01:02:19,375 I looked at the original press release, and they had everything at 51 01:02:19,375 --> 01:02:21,291 a bullet point, oh, here we go, here it is in this article. 52 01:02:21,791 --> 01:02:24,958 So it strips out rewards, Brave ads, the built-in crypto wallet, 53 01:02:24,958 --> 01:02:29,458 Leo AI, their news feature, their VPN, the Tor integration, and it 54 01:02:29,458 --> 01:02:31,416 turns off all the analytics by default. 55 01:02:33,291 --> 01:02:36,583 So yeah, it's a minimalist stripped down version of Brave. 56 01:02:37,500 --> 01:02:41,875 The catch here is that it costs $60, and that's a one-time fee. 57 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:44,375 So I mean, there's pros and cons, right? 58 01:02:44,375 --> 01:02:46,541 Like, it's a one-time fee, and it's actually free on Linux. 59 01:02:46,541 --> 01:02:47,791 So if you're a Linux user, you can just 60 01:02:47,791 --> 01:02:49,458 go download this right now, no biggie. 61 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,958 Actually, for the record, I think it might be in beta. 62 01:02:52,833 --> 01:02:55,000 I'd also explain why they haven't made a blog post about it. 63 01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:56,958 But when it comes to Linux, whenever you're 64 01:02:56,958 --> 01:02:58,666 ready, if you want it, you can go get it for free. 65 01:02:59,583 --> 01:03:02,541 The $60 fee does come with 10 activations, 66 01:03:02,541 --> 01:03:04,083 meaning you can use it on up to 10 devices. 67 01:03:05,500 --> 01:03:06,708 We'll get into that in just a minute. 68 01:03:09,333 --> 01:03:11,541 Actually, I mean, I guess we could get into that now, because I 69 01:03:11,541 --> 01:03:13,958 think that's kind of the meat of the story there. 70 01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:17,250 But why don't I... 71 01:03:18,541 --> 01:03:20,083 I'll start by throwing it over to you, Kerry. 72 01:03:20,083 --> 01:03:22,500 Do you have any particular thoughts on the story first? 73 01:03:22,500 --> 01:03:23,291 Or I can start it. 74 01:03:23,291 --> 01:03:23,625 Well, this doesn't... 75 01:03:24,625 --> 01:03:27,208 No, we can go together. 76 01:03:27,208 --> 01:03:28,916 But I think it's weird, right? 77 01:03:28,916 --> 01:03:30,416 I mean, basically, they're saying, "Here's all 78 01:03:30,416 --> 01:03:31,958 these really cool features we've been releasing." 79 01:03:31,958 --> 01:03:32,583 They've been touting these 80 01:03:32,583 --> 01:03:33,916 features as they release them, certainly. 81 01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:36,750 You know, these are things why you might want to use their product. 82 01:03:36,750 --> 01:03:39,125 And now they're saying, "Or for $60, we could take a lot away." 83 01:03:40,250 --> 01:03:43,083 So, it kind of gives a really mixed 84 01:03:43,083 --> 01:03:44,625 message about what they're doing, right? 85 01:03:44,791 --> 01:03:48,208 I mean, if these things are bloatware that people don't like enough 86 01:03:48,208 --> 01:03:49,500 that paying for them makes them go 87 01:03:49,500 --> 01:03:51,208 away, why are they there in the first place? 88 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:53,750 I don't know. 89 01:03:54,291 --> 01:03:55,291 Brave is... 90 01:03:55,291 --> 01:03:56,500 We were talking before the show. 91 01:03:56,500 --> 01:03:57,583 Brave is basically my second browser. 92 01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,583 I use Firefox, as I think a lot of my listeners know. 93 01:04:01,708 --> 01:04:03,666 And Brave is certainly the easy button option. 94 01:04:03,958 --> 01:04:06,541 If I think somebody doesn't, you know, want 95 01:04:06,541 --> 01:04:08,541 to do anything to get privacy, I'll just... 96 01:04:09,250 --> 01:04:09,958 Easy button is brave. 97 01:04:09,958 --> 01:04:11,125 I mean, it's a great browser. 98 01:04:11,125 --> 01:04:12,125 I like a lot of things about it. 99 01:04:12,125 --> 01:04:15,541 But, you know, the attention token thing and the Leo stuff, 100 01:04:15,541 --> 01:04:16,833 everyone's shoving AI at everything. 101 01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:19,333 I would like this. 102 01:04:19,333 --> 01:04:21,125 The other thing that I think that was in the article, and you could 103 01:04:21,125 --> 01:04:23,375 tell me, but it was $60 lifetime, right? 104 01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:27,416 So, even as a method for making money for Brave, 105 01:04:28,500 --> 01:04:31,416 I mean, we all hate subscriptions, but I mean, if this is going to 106 01:04:31,416 --> 01:04:32,750 be an ongoing thing, I can't imagine a 107 01:04:32,750 --> 01:04:34,500 $60 lifetime is really going to cover it. 108 01:04:34,833 --> 01:04:36,250 I mean, those are just some of my initial thoughts. 109 01:04:38,333 --> 01:04:38,958 Yeah, for sure. 110 01:04:39,541 --> 01:04:41,166 Yeah, it's a one time $60 fee. 111 01:04:41,375 --> 01:04:43,333 We've already got quite a few people in the chat, actually. 112 01:04:44,333 --> 01:04:47,833 Yeah, somebody said it's not out of beta yet, as far as we know. 113 01:04:48,333 --> 01:04:51,208 Lucas kind of has my thoughts, which is why would you pay for it 114 01:04:51,208 --> 01:04:52,250 when you can just turn it all off? 115 01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:53,041 To be fair, 116 01:04:54,541 --> 01:04:57,250 if you get the paid version, you can download... 117 01:04:57,250 --> 01:04:58,833 So, there's two ways to go about this. 118 01:04:59,208 --> 01:05:01,166 And let me recap this real quick for those who don't know. 119 01:05:02,041 --> 01:05:04,000 You can pay for it and you can download it fresh. 120 01:05:04,583 --> 01:05:05,750 And all that stuff is gone. 121 01:05:06,125 --> 01:05:07,458 Like, it is not there at all. 122 01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:09,458 It's not even like an option you can turn on or off. 123 01:05:09,458 --> 01:05:10,500 It's just completely gone. 124 01:05:11,250 --> 01:05:16,416 Alternately, you can upgrade, quote unquote, your existing browser. 125 01:05:16,791 --> 01:05:19,208 And then basically, it turns all that stuff off and then you can 126 01:05:19,208 --> 01:05:20,791 turn it back on, which I will say personally, 127 01:05:20,791 --> 01:05:22,500 if I was going to pay for this, I would do that. 128 01:05:22,958 --> 01:05:24,500 Because there are a few things like, I 129 01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:26,958 think like Speed Reader gets removed. 130 01:05:28,166 --> 01:05:30,333 We were, like you said, we were talking about this before we went 131 01:05:30,333 --> 01:05:34,958 live, but I do use Leo a little bit, mostly for like research. 132 01:05:34,958 --> 01:05:36,458 It's a real good time saver for research. 133 01:05:36,500 --> 01:05:38,333 I can type it in. 134 01:05:38,666 --> 01:05:40,291 Yeah, there was this story about AT&T 135 01:05:40,291 --> 01:05:42,041 had a data breach and here's the details. 136 01:05:42,041 --> 01:05:43,500 And it's like, oh, you're talking about 137 01:05:43,500 --> 01:05:44,916 this 2019, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 138 01:05:44,916 --> 01:05:46,208 And it spits out all the links. 139 01:05:46,416 --> 01:05:47,958 And I always double check it for the record. 140 01:05:47,958 --> 01:05:48,833 I do it sometimes. 141 01:05:49,958 --> 01:05:53,750 So, I mean, I like the idea of being able to turn things back on. 142 01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:56,875 But yeah, I mean, this has been a really polarizing story. 143 01:05:56,875 --> 01:05:58,125 And I don't know if I have a... 144 01:05:59,333 --> 01:06:01,291 I don't know if I really have a strong one way 145 01:06:01,291 --> 01:06:02,791 or the other, because I do see both arguments. 146 01:06:03,041 --> 01:06:05,916 Like you said, like some of the people here are saying is like, you 147 01:06:05,916 --> 01:06:08,833 have to like pay developers somehow. 148 01:06:09,500 --> 01:06:16,208 You know, but you also made a really good point about like, why 149 01:06:16,208 --> 01:06:17,916 would you pay for something that 150 01:06:17,916 --> 01:06:20,833 people didn't want in the first place? 151 01:06:21,041 --> 01:06:22,375 Like that's kind of silly. 152 01:06:22,375 --> 01:06:22,875 I don't know. 153 01:06:22,875 --> 01:06:24,875 It's certainly a mixed marketing message, right? 154 01:06:24,875 --> 01:06:27,250 I mean, obviously, as again, as these features 155 01:06:27,250 --> 01:06:29,458 came out, I know they were touting these things. 156 01:06:29,458 --> 01:06:30,416 Oh, we got this really cool thing. 157 01:06:30,416 --> 01:06:31,791 What'd you get this in the next version of Brave? 158 01:06:32,333 --> 01:06:33,458 And now to suddenly say, or you could take all out of the way if 159 01:06:33,458 --> 01:06:36,208 you pay us money, just seems really... 160 01:06:37,041 --> 01:06:38,625 I mean, just as a pure marketing 161 01:06:38,625 --> 01:06:41,541 thing seems like a really bizarre message. 162 01:06:41,541 --> 01:06:43,750 I mean, and yes, all this stuff costs money. 163 01:06:43,750 --> 01:06:45,833 We should absolutely be supporting these folks. 164 01:06:46,875 --> 01:06:48,291 You know, I try to donate where I can. 165 01:06:48,291 --> 01:06:49,000 A lot of people don't. 166 01:06:49,208 --> 01:06:50,291 I don't know if that's a sustainable 167 01:06:50,291 --> 01:06:51,583 model for a lot of these companies. 168 01:06:52,041 --> 01:06:52,875 I wish it were. 169 01:06:53,750 --> 01:06:55,250 I get that part of it. 170 01:06:55,583 --> 01:06:58,125 Just the marketing aspect of this just 171 01:06:58,125 --> 01:06:59,916 is what I guess confuses me the most. 172 01:07:00,375 --> 01:07:01,458 And it also is really interesting. 173 01:07:01,708 --> 01:07:02,458 All right, so let me ask if you see if you know. 174 01:07:02,458 --> 01:07:02,875 So is there a way to get a better idea of what you're doing? Let me see if you know. 175 01:07:03,250 --> 01:07:06,291 So if you pay the 60 bucks to get the second version of this where 176 01:07:06,291 --> 01:07:09,083 all these things are disabled, can you, if you re-enabled 177 01:07:09,083 --> 01:07:10,791 everything, would it be right back where you started? 178 01:07:10,791 --> 01:07:11,916 Or is there still some difference? 179 01:07:13,291 --> 01:07:16,500 No, as far as I know, it would basically be like as if you just 180 01:07:16,500 --> 01:07:18,958 downloaded the free version fresh. 181 01:07:20,125 --> 01:07:20,375 Huh. 182 01:07:21,791 --> 01:07:22,000 Strange. 183 01:07:22,166 --> 01:07:24,416 So, yeah, I don't know. 184 01:07:24,916 --> 01:07:28,041 I mean, my other concern is, you know, this Charles said here, the 185 01:07:28,041 --> 01:07:29,833 whole thing about like, you have to be able to pay developers. 186 01:07:30,708 --> 01:07:33,125 I don't want to shoot myself in the foot or anything, but $60 one 187 01:07:33,125 --> 01:07:35,000 time isn't really sustainable in my opinion. 188 01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:36,166 Right. 189 01:07:36,416 --> 01:07:37,458 I feel the need to point that out. 190 01:07:37,458 --> 01:07:38,458 But also like, I don't know. 191 01:07:38,458 --> 01:07:41,958 It's, I do want to, I do want to point out, I actually kind of 192 01:07:41,958 --> 01:07:44,458 sympathize with Brave a little bit here because a lot of people, I 193 01:07:44,458 --> 01:07:46,583 know I just mentioned it a minute ago, but like, you're paying to 194 01:07:46,583 --> 01:07:47,583 get rid of features you don't want. 195 01:07:47,916 --> 01:07:49,208 Yes, but that means they have to make a 196 01:07:49,208 --> 01:07:51,500 completely separate version of the browser every time. 197 01:07:51,833 --> 01:07:53,125 They have to make a completely separate 198 01:07:53,125 --> 01:07:55,291 version that has all this stuff taken out. 199 01:07:55,666 --> 01:07:57,541 And then they have to like put it out there to the public. 200 01:07:57,541 --> 01:07:59,041 It's completely different upload. 201 01:07:59,083 --> 01:08:00,500 And so 202 01:08:00,500 --> 01:08:01,958 that is actually true. 203 01:08:01,958 --> 01:08:04,250 And from a software development standpoint, that is, that's 204 01:08:04,250 --> 01:08:07,000 actually incurred cost because that basically doubles the amount of 205 01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:08,500 testing you need to do against that browser. 206 01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:10,166 You'd have to test the features that are removed, but you still got 207 01:08:10,166 --> 01:08:12,333 to run it through everything else that doesn't work and make sure 208 01:08:12,333 --> 01:08:14,125 you didn't break anything by removing those features. 209 01:08:14,375 --> 01:08:18,500 So it actually does incur them some overhead to support two 210 01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:19,833 different versions of their browser. 211 01:08:20,083 --> 01:08:21,666 So yeah. 212 01:08:23,333 --> 01:08:23,583 Yeah. 213 01:08:23,583 --> 01:08:26,166 I actually, uh, I'm glad Jonah reminded me here. 214 01:08:26,250 --> 01:08:28,125 I wanted to go ahead and run a little poll and 215 01:08:28,125 --> 01:08:30,125 see who, who would be willing to pay for this? 216 01:08:30,125 --> 01:08:30,791 Yes, no, or maybe. 217 01:08:31,208 --> 01:08:33,083 Um, for those of you who don't know how the polls work, you leave 218 01:08:33,083 --> 01:08:34,291 one, two or three in the comments, 219 01:08:34,291 --> 01:08:37,583 but, um, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm curious. 220 01:08:37,791 --> 01:08:39,750 I haven't, I keep waffling. 221 01:08:39,750 --> 01:08:40,916 Cause on the one hand, one thing I hear 222 01:08:40,916 --> 01:08:42,708 people defending it is this is really good. 223 01:08:42,708 --> 01:08:46,083 If you've got like, um, if you've got friends or family who are 224 01:08:46,083 --> 01:08:47,458 maybe not a little bit more tech savvy. 225 01:08:47,708 --> 01:08:50,500 I mean, brave has really good built in 226 01:08:50,500 --> 01:08:52,416 out of the box privacy protection features. 227 01:08:52,416 --> 01:08:53,708 I don't think that's really arguable 228 01:08:53,708 --> 01:08:55,166 regardless of how you feel about them. 229 01:08:57,125 --> 01:09:00,000 I think it would be really cool to have, you know, to get your 230 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,041 friends and family on brave and to, to be able to give them this 231 01:09:03,041 --> 01:09:06,291 like minimalist version where you can just be like, you know, 232 01:09:06,416 --> 01:09:09,083 install this origin, but like I bought it, but I'll activate it for 233 01:09:09,083 --> 01:09:10,375 you and install it and it's good. 234 01:09:10,375 --> 01:09:12,583 And there's no chance they're going to accidentally wander onto the 235 01:09:12,583 --> 01:09:16,083 Leo page or the crypto page or any of that kind of crazy stuff. 236 01:09:16,333 --> 01:09:17,583 So that's an interesting point actually. 237 01:09:18,458 --> 01:09:19,500 And I want to support these guys too. 238 01:09:19,500 --> 01:09:23,333 So I may just pay for this just to support them, but as a gift for 239 01:09:23,333 --> 01:09:26,833 people, like you're saying that, that I don't want to take the time 240 01:09:26,833 --> 01:09:29,500 or it's too tedious because we all know this, you know, the tyranny 241 01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:31,541 of the default is Steve Gibson likes to call it, right? 242 01:09:31,833 --> 01:09:33,083 Whatever, whatever comes out of the box 243 01:09:33,083 --> 01:09:34,416 is what almost everyone's going to use. 244 01:09:34,416 --> 01:09:36,833 And if you have to start tweaking that to get to the point where 245 01:09:36,833 --> 01:09:38,166 you want to people often won't do it. 246 01:09:38,416 --> 01:09:39,666 Certainly a lot of the, you know, my, 247 01:09:39,833 --> 01:09:41,541 again, like my mom is often my avatar. 248 01:09:41,541 --> 01:09:42,333 She's not going to do it. 249 01:09:42,625 --> 01:09:44,875 Then, then most of my audience is not going to do it either. 250 01:09:45,416 --> 01:09:48,208 So yeah, if it could pay to give it to pay to give somebody else a 251 01:09:48,208 --> 01:09:49,958 version of this that is already ready to go. 252 01:09:51,958 --> 01:09:54,416 That might be actually more interesting as a gift thing. 253 01:09:56,500 --> 01:09:57,250 Yeah, for sure. 254 01:09:57,791 --> 01:10:00,791 And I mean, I forget what I was listening to lately. 255 01:10:00,791 --> 01:10:03,458 I think it was about ad blockers, but that was a point that came up 256 01:10:03,458 --> 01:10:07,750 is like, I mean, even I've had times where, you know, my ad 257 01:10:07,750 --> 01:10:09,458 blockers stop things from working or my 258 01:10:09,458 --> 01:10:13,125 wife's, you know, she also uses brave and yeah. 259 01:10:14,250 --> 01:10:15,750 No, Jonah, I don't think polls are broken. 260 01:10:15,750 --> 01:10:17,250 I think I forgot to hit resume on that one. 261 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,375 But yeah, I don't know. 262 01:10:21,375 --> 01:10:23,958 It's it's it's interesting. 263 01:10:24,041 --> 01:10:24,666 It's a tall order. 264 01:10:25,208 --> 01:10:25,875 I think it's really cool. 265 01:10:25,875 --> 01:10:28,458 I think I don't know if he was being tongue in cheek, but I did see 266 01:10:28,458 --> 01:10:31,000 somebody asked the CEO of brave why it's free on Linux. 267 01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:32,958 And he's like, try to push people towards links. 268 01:10:33,375 --> 01:10:34,333 So I don't know if he was joking 269 01:10:34,333 --> 01:10:35,583 around or not, but that was pretty cool. 270 01:10:36,083 --> 01:10:38,166 So yeah, that's weird too. 271 01:10:38,166 --> 01:10:41,541 I mean, did they, did they say why they're, I mean, why are they, 272 01:10:41,541 --> 01:10:44,416 is this just a matter of we want, this is another way for you to 273 01:10:44,416 --> 01:10:46,125 support us basically going this way or. 274 01:10:47,500 --> 01:10:49,458 Because I'll give it away for free on the phone. 275 01:10:49,458 --> 01:10:50,250 Get it for anyway. 276 01:10:50,500 --> 01:10:51,083 I don't know. 277 01:10:52,083 --> 01:10:54,333 No, I think that's I don't know. 278 01:10:54,333 --> 01:10:56,708 I mean, that's I'm not much of a business person, but I feel like 279 01:10:56,708 --> 01:10:59,000 that's the only explanation that makes sense to me is like we 280 01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,208 wanted to try and support the Linux community. 281 01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:03,875 I think it's also I know I think you you 282 01:11:03,875 --> 01:11:05,541 mentioned this a little bit, but I think it's. 283 01:11:07,541 --> 01:11:09,416 Kind of like trying to find that middle ground of, you know, like 284 01:11:09,416 --> 01:11:12,000 people complain about the bloat and it's like, OK, here's a bloat 285 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:13,083 free version, which of course now 286 01:11:13,083 --> 01:11:14,000 they're going to complain that it's paid. 287 01:11:14,250 --> 01:11:15,541 But yeah. 288 01:11:16,333 --> 01:11:17,625 Right there, we want Linux to win. 289 01:11:18,125 --> 01:11:18,333 So. 290 01:11:19,791 --> 01:11:21,833 But yeah, you think it'd be the way around, right? 291 01:11:21,833 --> 01:11:24,416 Like the basic one to be free and then all the stuff with all these 292 01:11:24,416 --> 01:11:25,666 features we've spent all this time putting 293 01:11:25,666 --> 01:11:27,125 into there, that would be the for pay for. 294 01:11:28,500 --> 01:11:30,458 Yeah, that's what's getting me. 295 01:11:31,208 --> 01:11:32,958 Not to be cynical, but one thing I've 296 01:11:32,958 --> 01:11:35,708 noticed is the average person doesn't care. 297 01:11:36,041 --> 01:11:37,125 Like I love my wife. 298 01:11:37,125 --> 01:11:38,083 I mentioned she uses Brave. 299 01:11:38,541 --> 01:11:40,208 She still has the sponsored backgrounds 300 01:11:40,208 --> 01:11:43,541 turned on, which I don't know how she does. 301 01:11:43,541 --> 01:11:44,625 I just hate ads personally. 302 01:11:44,625 --> 01:11:45,750 I'm like, oh, I do too. 303 01:11:45,958 --> 01:11:46,583 With a passion. 304 01:11:47,541 --> 01:11:48,500 Yeah, so I don't understand. 305 01:11:48,500 --> 01:11:50,541 Like every time I have to use her computer for something and I pull 306 01:11:50,541 --> 01:11:52,416 up Brave or I see her pull up Brave and I'm 307 01:11:52,416 --> 01:11:54,250 like looking over her shoulder for whatever reason. 308 01:11:54,875 --> 01:11:56,750 And it's just like I see a little sponsored thing. 309 01:11:56,750 --> 01:11:58,750 I'm like, how would you not turn those off? 310 01:11:59,125 --> 01:12:01,291 But it doesn't seem to bother her. 311 01:12:01,291 --> 01:12:01,916 So I don't know. 312 01:12:01,916 --> 01:12:02,750 I just have the tyranny of the 313 01:12:02,750 --> 01:12:04,625 defaults if there's good defaults there. 314 01:12:04,625 --> 01:12:07,000 So I guess that could be another argument going back to my whole 315 01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,000 like not playing tech support for the parents is, you know, you get 316 01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:11,958 this, you install it on their computer and guess what? 317 01:12:11,958 --> 01:12:13,083 They have good defaults right there. 318 01:12:13,083 --> 01:12:14,583 Like all the analytics are turned off. 319 01:12:14,583 --> 01:12:14,791 So. 320 01:12:15,625 --> 01:12:19,500 I do imagine that people that watch ads, this is the same 321 01:12:19,500 --> 01:12:21,500 experience I have is want to look at anybody like on Chrome. 322 01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:24,250 And it doesn't have you block or something installed and there's 323 01:12:24,250 --> 01:12:25,750 ads and stuff all over the place. 324 01:12:26,083 --> 01:12:27,458 And I can all I can guess is that they've 325 01:12:27,458 --> 01:12:29,000 already looked their brains tune that out. 326 01:12:29,291 --> 01:12:30,708 Like they they're so used to it. 327 01:12:30,708 --> 01:12:32,458 They're so numb to it that they don't see it. 328 01:12:32,458 --> 01:12:35,375 Whereas you and I who don't see ads all the time, it's just it's 329 01:12:35,375 --> 01:12:37,791 glaring to us because they're trying to get their attention. 330 01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:38,916 They've already ruled them out. 331 01:12:39,250 --> 01:12:42,708 And for us who are not used to it, you know, it's like anyway, we 332 01:12:42,708 --> 01:12:45,000 haven't built up the resistance to it like they have. 333 01:12:45,958 --> 01:12:48,500 I I've stopped saying it because I 334 01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:49,916 feel like I'm a party pooper every time. 335 01:12:49,916 --> 01:12:52,500 But on that note, every time I see certain like TikTok videos or 336 01:12:52,500 --> 01:12:54,250 something, I'm like, why were they filming this moment? 337 01:12:55,500 --> 01:12:58,333 And that's to me, that's a good way to tell if it's an ad. 338 01:12:58,791 --> 01:13:02,041 But real quick, I didn't want to call out. 339 01:13:02,041 --> 01:13:03,125 Jonah said he's going to keep using 340 01:13:03,125 --> 01:13:06,750 Zen browser on the topic of competitors. 341 01:13:07,083 --> 01:13:09,833 I know we're going to get ahead of it because a lot of people have 342 01:13:09,833 --> 01:13:13,625 asked about this is the helium browser 343 01:13:13,625 --> 01:13:16,125 has been a really popular subject lately. 344 01:13:16,125 --> 01:13:17,666 It's popped up on the forums a few times. 345 01:13:17,666 --> 01:13:19,750 I know there's some videos have been made about it. 346 01:13:20,333 --> 01:13:22,291 So Jonah asked me earlier this week if I 347 01:13:22,291 --> 01:13:24,666 could test it out and kind of take a look at it. 348 01:13:24,666 --> 01:13:28,083 And actually, I guess you guys can't see the whole window here, but 349 01:13:28,083 --> 01:13:29,833 I'm actually using helium browser today. 350 01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:35,083 And it's you know, I will go on record and say I was I was really a 351 01:13:35,083 --> 01:13:38,333 hater when Jonah was like, hey, can you test this out? 352 01:13:38,333 --> 01:13:40,000 And I was like, why? 353 01:13:43,458 --> 01:13:46,375 But you know, I got to say it's been pretty pleasant. 354 01:13:46,375 --> 01:13:48,875 Like some people have been promoting it as a let's see if I can 355 01:13:48,875 --> 01:13:50,041 pull up their website here real quick. 356 01:13:51,125 --> 01:13:53,000 It's coming up because you know, we're talking about things like 357 01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:55,875 Zen or like helium, like why pay for this when you can just do this 358 01:13:55,875 --> 01:13:57,458 or you can just manually debloat it. 359 01:13:58,750 --> 01:14:01,000 I've definitely found little things here and there like every once 360 01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,250 in a while my my well on this computer, I have a solo key. 361 01:14:04,500 --> 01:14:06,500 But every once in a while my solo key 362 01:14:06,500 --> 01:14:08,291 won't work with it quite right for some reason. 363 01:14:08,500 --> 01:14:10,958 But I mean, I got to admit it was it was it. 364 01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:14,708 Ironically, it was a little bit longer of an install, I feel like 365 01:14:14,708 --> 01:14:18,208 than most browsers because you know, most browsers like they just 366 01:14:18,208 --> 01:14:19,875 want to get out of your way and get going real quick. 367 01:14:20,375 --> 01:14:22,750 But this one's this one had like a whole page 368 01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,500 of like what settings do you want to enable? 369 01:14:25,166 --> 01:14:27,000 What search engine do you want to use? 370 01:14:27,291 --> 01:14:29,541 So it felt like it took a little bit longer to get started. 371 01:14:30,250 --> 01:14:33,000 Not not by much longer, just a few seconds, but it definitely felt 372 01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:34,333 like it was a little more involved. 373 01:14:34,958 --> 01:14:38,083 But I mean, once I got up and running, it's it's it's been treating 374 01:14:38,083 --> 01:14:40,125 me well, pretty, pretty well so far. 375 01:14:40,875 --> 01:14:41,958 I'm always a fan of anything that 376 01:14:41,958 --> 01:14:43,250 comes included with you block origin. 377 01:14:44,916 --> 01:14:47,000 I don't I just realized I didn't pull the page up. 378 01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:47,250 I'm sorry. 379 01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:48,875 I'm talking about it. 380 01:14:49,416 --> 01:14:51,250 But yeah, I don't know. 381 01:14:51,250 --> 01:14:53,041 I mean, I just I know people are going to ask us about it. 382 01:14:53,041 --> 01:14:55,333 So this is kind of an unofficial review. 383 01:14:56,041 --> 01:14:57,208 I don't know if there's enough there for us 384 01:14:57,208 --> 01:14:58,708 to do an entire review of it specifically. 385 01:14:59,291 --> 01:15:01,208 But I thought it was okay. 386 01:15:01,208 --> 01:15:02,083 I thought it was pretty cool. 387 01:15:02,833 --> 01:15:03,833 You could check it out if you want. 388 01:15:04,500 --> 01:15:06,500 I don't think I'm going to switch from brave to be totally honest. 389 01:15:06,791 --> 01:15:07,791 Like this has been an okay experiment. 390 01:15:08,041 --> 01:15:09,375 I think after this, I'm going back to brave. 391 01:15:11,041 --> 01:15:13,166 But yeah, I mean, doesn't seem to be 392 01:15:13,166 --> 01:15:15,833 anything wrong with it in my expertise, at least. 393 01:15:16,625 --> 01:15:18,458 So it's actually amazing how many browsers we have. 394 01:15:18,916 --> 01:15:22,333 And even even how many different privacy oriented browsers we have. 395 01:15:22,416 --> 01:15:24,500 That's I mean, it's a good problem to have, I guess. 396 01:15:25,291 --> 01:15:25,875 Yeah, for sure. 397 01:15:25,875 --> 01:15:28,666 I mean, we've got, I mean, for the record, I think they've all got 398 01:15:28,666 --> 01:15:30,000 most of them, you have to do some various 399 01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:31,541 tweaking to like really get the most out of it. 400 01:15:31,541 --> 01:15:33,458 But we got brave, we got Firefox, we got mobile, 401 01:15:33,625 --> 01:15:36,875 we got Leberwolf, we got even things like Vivaldi. 402 01:15:37,333 --> 01:15:39,375 And comparing them to like mainstream like Chrome, for example, 403 01:15:39,375 --> 01:15:40,833 like even Vivaldi comes with like a built 404 01:15:40,833 --> 01:15:43,375 in ad blocker and all that kind of stuff. 405 01:15:43,791 --> 01:15:45,833 So I mean, have you used Zen browser at all? 406 01:15:46,541 --> 01:15:47,250 I haven't used it. 407 01:15:47,250 --> 01:15:49,041 But I know Jonah speaks very highly of it. 408 01:15:49,041 --> 01:15:50,791 And I think Jordan's used it too. 409 01:15:51,250 --> 01:15:53,250 So I know Zen's a really popular one. 410 01:15:53,625 --> 01:15:56,916 But so like you said, it's a good problem to have for sure. 411 01:15:57,583 --> 01:15:57,791 Yeah. 412 01:15:59,458 --> 01:16:00,625 All right. 413 01:16:01,166 --> 01:16:03,333 I don't think I have anything else to add to that story. 414 01:16:03,750 --> 01:16:04,916 Did you have anything you wanted to? 415 01:16:05,541 --> 01:16:05,958 Oh, here we go. 416 01:16:05,958 --> 01:16:06,833 We got a question for you. 417 01:16:07,083 --> 01:16:08,333 What browser are you using? 418 01:16:08,333 --> 01:16:09,791 I thought you said it a minute ago. 419 01:16:09,791 --> 01:16:12,291 I use Firefox and I've been using Firefox for a long time. 420 01:16:12,291 --> 01:16:14,125 And sadly, I saw the numbers on Firefox. 421 01:16:14,125 --> 01:16:16,583 It's down to like single digit percent usage. 422 01:16:17,250 --> 01:16:18,500 It's really, really sad. 423 01:16:18,875 --> 01:16:20,166 I mean, I guess maybe some of that is the fact 424 01:16:20,166 --> 01:16:21,666 that we've got so many browsers to choose from. 425 01:16:21,666 --> 01:16:23,250 But I don't know. 426 01:16:23,250 --> 01:16:24,666 I've been a longtime Firefox user. 427 01:16:24,666 --> 01:16:27,041 One of the reasons I like Firefox, though, and I like to support 428 01:16:27,041 --> 01:16:29,416 Firefox is I really want something besides chromium. 429 01:16:30,125 --> 01:16:33,916 I'm honestly surprised that Google I know that Google is the 430 01:16:33,916 --> 01:16:35,875 browser and we're or was the search 431 01:16:35,875 --> 01:16:38,208 engine on Firefox for a long time. 432 01:16:38,208 --> 01:16:39,750 And that was kind of how they indirectly supported. 433 01:16:40,416 --> 01:16:42,750 But there were times in history with Apple, for example, where 434 01:16:42,750 --> 01:16:45,291 Microsoft gave a bunch of money to Apple because they didn't want 435 01:16:45,291 --> 01:16:47,291 Apple to die because they needed a competitor. 436 01:16:47,291 --> 01:16:49,333 Otherwise they'd be a monopoly. 437 01:16:50,375 --> 01:16:53,583 And so for that reason alone, maybe Google 438 01:16:53,583 --> 01:16:55,750 should kick in some money to the Mozilla Foundation. 439 01:16:56,958 --> 01:16:58,583 Anyway, I like to support these. 440 01:16:58,583 --> 01:17:00,125 I want something besides chromium. 441 01:17:00,833 --> 01:17:02,500 And so for me, it's Firefox and you block origin. 442 01:17:03,416 --> 01:17:04,208 That's my go to. 443 01:17:06,625 --> 01:17:07,500 Yeah, I am. 444 01:17:08,916 --> 01:17:11,291 I'm not gonna lie, I kind of want to go back to Firefox for the 445 01:17:11,291 --> 01:17:12,541 same reason you said like just to 446 01:17:12,541 --> 01:17:15,125 support the the wide range of browser choices. 447 01:17:15,458 --> 01:17:19,500 But I'll admit I use Leo quite like most of the time, okay, most of 448 01:17:19,500 --> 01:17:23,250 the time, I'm either going to like the things that I would log in 449 01:17:23,250 --> 01:17:26,041 with a with a YubiKey like my next cloud instance, my mastodon 450 01:17:26,041 --> 01:17:29,416 instance, or I'm doing research for a video at which point, like I 451 01:17:29,416 --> 01:17:32,500 said, I kind of come to rely on Leo pretty heavily for that, just 452 01:17:32,500 --> 01:17:34,916 because it speeds up the research process so dramatically. 453 01:17:35,500 --> 01:17:39,000 So I don't know, but I'm trying to use Tor a lot more as well. 454 01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:41,375 And I know there's that like ask mode in Brave, I think I need to 455 01:17:41,375 --> 01:17:43,083 play play around with that a little bit more. 456 01:17:43,791 --> 01:17:46,041 Well, of course, Tor is Tor is based on Firefox too. 457 01:17:46,041 --> 01:17:48,041 So what happens to Tor if Firefox goes away? 458 01:17:48,041 --> 01:17:49,166 I don't know. 459 01:17:49,750 --> 01:17:50,708 Yeah, that's true. 460 01:17:51,125 --> 01:17:52,625 That is that is very, very true. 461 01:17:54,041 --> 01:17:55,541 Normally we save questions till the end, 462 01:17:55,541 --> 01:17:57,708 but the chat is really popping tonight. 463 01:17:57,708 --> 01:17:58,750 So I don't want to lose questions. 464 01:17:59,625 --> 01:18:01,416 Somebody said, do you use Arken Fox with Firefox? 465 01:18:01,458 --> 01:18:03,416 Do you have an opinion on the Arken Fox project? 466 01:18:04,083 --> 01:18:05,125 I've looked at it. 467 01:18:05,333 --> 01:18:08,166 I've basically gotten Firefox to the point where I've tweaked it. 468 01:18:08,166 --> 01:18:09,083 And so I don't know. 469 01:18:09,083 --> 01:18:09,791 I've not gone through. 470 01:18:09,791 --> 01:18:11,791 I've looked at some of the things that Arken Fox has done. 471 01:18:11,791 --> 01:18:14,958 I've kind of looked through their bullet list of of modifications. 472 01:18:14,958 --> 01:18:17,750 Some of them are a little further than I would that I go. 473 01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:18,833 I've got other things going on, too. 474 01:18:18,833 --> 01:18:20,583 I use Next DNS and some other things, too. 475 01:18:20,583 --> 01:18:22,875 So some of them kind of overlap, perhaps. 476 01:18:23,791 --> 01:18:27,125 I'm not, you know, I'm not super, super hardcore. 477 01:18:27,125 --> 01:18:28,250 Plus my audience is not. 478 01:18:28,291 --> 01:18:30,833 So I also kind of try to do what I 479 01:18:30,833 --> 01:18:33,500 recommend so that I'm more familiar with it. 480 01:18:33,500 --> 01:18:35,458 So you know, so there's some of that going on there, too. 481 01:18:36,916 --> 01:18:37,291 Yeah. 482 01:18:37,291 --> 01:18:39,750 And I mean, my personal opinion is like I feel like the Mulvad 483 01:18:39,750 --> 01:18:41,916 browser has closed the gap so much. 484 01:18:41,916 --> 01:18:44,041 I actually thought I heard that Arken Fox was going to stop 485 01:18:44,041 --> 01:18:46,416 developing because the Mulvad browser was so good. 486 01:18:47,416 --> 01:18:48,458 I mean, I use it sometimes, too. 487 01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:52,208 Yeah, I was going to say, I don't like it again, like we were 488 01:18:52,208 --> 01:18:54,291 saying earlier, it's great that there's so many choices out there. 489 01:18:54,291 --> 01:18:55,250 So I'm not like mad about it. 490 01:18:55,250 --> 01:18:57,333 If they want to keep developing, that's that's cool for them. 491 01:18:57,625 --> 01:19:01,083 But yeah, I have I literally I have four browsers on my computer. 492 01:19:01,083 --> 01:19:03,083 I brave Firefox, Tor and Mulvad. 493 01:19:03,583 --> 01:19:04,708 And I've 494 01:19:04,708 --> 01:19:05,666 got all those bus safari. 495 01:19:07,166 --> 01:19:08,250 Well, OK, OK, yes. 496 01:19:08,250 --> 01:19:09,041 We want to talk about the Mac. 497 01:19:09,500 --> 01:19:11,375 I only use this when I'm traveling, to be honest. 498 01:19:11,791 --> 01:19:13,416 Otherwise, I'm either on Linux or Windows. 499 01:19:13,916 --> 01:19:16,916 But the keys just the keys. 500 01:19:16,916 --> 01:19:17,416 I don't know. 501 01:19:17,916 --> 01:19:22,208 I might I might I feel like I should buy origin now just in case it 502 01:19:22,208 --> 01:19:25,208 does turn into like a subscription or like prices go up later. 503 01:19:25,208 --> 01:19:26,208 Like price now. 504 01:19:26,500 --> 01:19:27,208 Had your bets. 505 01:19:27,208 --> 01:19:29,208 These are pretty straightforward. 506 01:19:29,500 --> 01:19:30,541 Don't they just work like keyboards? 507 01:19:30,750 --> 01:19:31,458 Like how do they fail? 508 01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:32,750 I'm sorry, we're getting off 509 01:19:32,750 --> 01:19:34,166 topic, but you're talking about the Mac. 510 01:19:34,791 --> 01:19:35,041 No. 511 01:19:35,041 --> 01:19:36,958 Well, you said some of these keys don't work with some of the 512 01:19:36,958 --> 01:19:38,458 browsers or something that some of your hardware. 513 01:19:38,666 --> 01:19:39,416 Oh, no, I don't. 514 01:19:39,416 --> 01:19:39,875 Oh, yeah. 515 01:19:39,875 --> 01:19:39,958 Yeah. 516 01:19:39,958 --> 01:19:40,666 On Helium. 517 01:19:40,666 --> 01:19:41,000 I don't know. 518 01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:42,166 Just the other day I went to log 519 01:19:42,166 --> 01:19:44,583 into what was I trying to log into? 520 01:19:44,583 --> 01:19:46,875 It might have been it might have been massed on. 521 01:19:46,875 --> 01:19:47,125 I don't know. 522 01:19:47,125 --> 01:19:48,250 I went to log into something and I 523 01:19:48,250 --> 01:19:51,208 hit my my solo key and the key was fine. 524 01:19:51,208 --> 01:19:52,541 But like it gave me some kind of error 525 01:19:52,541 --> 01:19:55,500 about like could not parse something or other. 526 01:19:55,541 --> 01:19:57,416 And I like I made a note of him in my head. 527 01:19:57,416 --> 01:19:59,708 But then by that point, I was like, whatever, I'm going to bed. 528 01:20:00,083 --> 01:20:03,416 But it's been a long I went to New York this week. 529 01:20:04,125 --> 01:20:05,041 I went to upstate New York. 530 01:20:05,041 --> 01:20:06,166 So I had to travel and everything. 531 01:20:06,291 --> 01:20:08,458 And yeah, that's that was fun. 532 01:20:09,250 --> 01:20:09,500 Yeah. 533 01:20:10,458 --> 01:20:13,333 But yeah, I think before we move on, I do want to point out this 534 01:20:13,333 --> 01:20:14,791 new Keith person here, I think is 535 01:20:14,791 --> 01:20:16,500 actually a member of the brave team. 536 01:20:16,500 --> 01:20:18,541 So thank you so much for stopping by and answering. 537 01:20:18,541 --> 01:20:20,041 Oh, hey, we really appreciate it. 538 01:20:21,791 --> 01:20:23,541 But with that, I think I will turn it over to 539 01:20:23,541 --> 01:20:26,333 you to talk about this new law from Maryland. 540 01:20:27,083 --> 01:20:27,583 Yeah, yeah. 541 01:20:27,583 --> 01:20:32,916 OK, so Maryland has passed the first and first 542 01:20:32,916 --> 01:20:35,708 in the US law for banning surveillance pricing. 543 01:20:36,708 --> 01:20:39,625 They called it the Protection from Predatory Pricing Act. 544 01:20:39,625 --> 01:20:41,958 Actually, I think New York actually has 545 01:20:41,958 --> 01:20:43,708 a law, but it's only about transparency. 546 01:20:44,500 --> 01:20:45,833 New York, I believe, has a lot that says if you 547 01:20:45,833 --> 01:20:47,500 do it, you have to tell people you're doing it. 548 01:20:47,500 --> 01:20:48,708 But this sounds going to outright ban. 549 01:20:50,083 --> 01:20:53,625 It was Westmore is going to sign it. 550 01:20:53,666 --> 01:20:56,541 Apparently surveillance pricing, if you if you don't know, is this 551 01:20:56,541 --> 01:20:58,833 notion of the collects all this information about all these data 552 01:20:58,833 --> 01:21:01,833 brokers, all these things that we've been talking about on shows 553 01:21:01,833 --> 01:21:05,000 like this in mind, where all this data, personal data has been 554 01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:06,375 collected about you often without your 555 01:21:06,375 --> 01:21:08,375 knowledge, supposedly with your consent. 556 01:21:08,375 --> 01:21:09,500 But we all know how that goes. 557 01:21:10,125 --> 01:21:12,750 And then when the time comes to show you a price based on all that 558 01:21:12,750 --> 01:21:13,833 information, if they think you're 559 01:21:13,833 --> 01:21:15,125 desperate, they might charge you more. 560 01:21:15,541 --> 01:21:17,916 If they think you're rich, they might charge you more. 561 01:21:17,916 --> 01:21:19,541 Or if they haven't seen you in a while when 562 01:21:19,541 --> 01:21:20,750 to get you back, they might charge you less. 563 01:21:20,750 --> 01:21:22,500 There's all sorts of things baked into these algorithms. 564 01:21:22,958 --> 01:21:25,416 But the point being is that people get different prices. 565 01:21:25,875 --> 01:21:27,750 And there's been all sorts of studies that 566 01:21:27,750 --> 01:21:30,000 people have and they've asked questions to people. 567 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:30,833 Do you like this idea? 568 01:21:30,833 --> 01:21:32,833 And everyone says no, like nobody likes this idea. 569 01:21:34,166 --> 01:21:35,250 And yet there are still other things like 570 01:21:35,250 --> 01:21:37,666 loyalty programs or whatever your croaker card. 571 01:21:37,666 --> 01:21:39,916 But the thing with those is everyone gets the same deal. 572 01:21:39,916 --> 01:21:41,541 Like if you've got the card, then you get the price. 573 01:21:42,500 --> 01:21:45,416 So anyway, this is a situation where potentially you like your 574 01:21:45,416 --> 01:21:47,208 particular person might get a 575 01:21:47,208 --> 01:21:48,541 different price than someone next to you. 576 01:21:49,500 --> 01:21:51,625 And so I guess food retailers as in grocery 577 01:21:51,625 --> 01:21:53,083 stores are a big place where this happened. 578 01:21:53,541 --> 01:21:58,833 Obviously a lot of this would be online so that two people not 579 01:21:58,833 --> 01:21:59,708 sitting next to each other are 580 01:21:59,708 --> 01:22:00,916 noticing that the prices are different. 581 01:22:01,458 --> 01:22:03,041 Though Walmart and some other stores 582 01:22:03,041 --> 01:22:04,916 are going to those electronic tags now. 583 01:22:04,916 --> 01:22:06,708 And some people are envisioning this like I 584 01:22:06,708 --> 01:22:09,416 walk up to a tag and then the price changes for me. 585 01:22:09,875 --> 01:22:11,958 I don't think that's going to be happening anytime soon. 586 01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:15,583 But anyway, so Maryland has come up with this law saying that this 587 01:22:15,583 --> 01:22:16,958 is bad and we're going to treat it as 588 01:22:16,958 --> 01:22:19,375 a fair and deceptive trade practice, 589 01:22:20,500 --> 01:22:21,250 which is great. 590 01:22:21,250 --> 01:22:22,333 We need more things like this. 591 01:22:22,708 --> 01:22:23,791 I think this is a good idea. 592 01:22:24,166 --> 01:22:26,625 I've got some questions about how this is really going to work out. 593 01:22:26,625 --> 01:22:28,375 And the devil's always in the details like, 594 01:22:29,041 --> 01:22:30,625 you know, how are they going to enforce this? 595 01:22:31,625 --> 01:22:33,458 How do you catch this, for example, 596 01:22:33,458 --> 01:22:34,708 how do you prove that this is happening? 597 01:22:34,958 --> 01:22:37,291 And then how do you then even if I get a different price, how do I 598 01:22:37,291 --> 01:22:41,083 prove that it was because I'm different than somebody else that I 599 01:22:41,083 --> 01:22:43,458 got this price, that it was some algorithm behind the scenes and 600 01:22:43,458 --> 01:22:45,875 not just, well, we just changed the prices five minutes ago. 601 01:22:46,708 --> 01:22:48,791 Also, what is not clear, I looked at the I 602 01:22:48,791 --> 01:22:50,291 tried to look at the law before we came on. 603 01:22:50,708 --> 01:22:54,208 It doesn't appear to have a private right of action built into it. 604 01:22:54,458 --> 01:22:56,958 Now, sometimes in different states, there are other laws that would 605 01:22:56,958 --> 01:22:58,250 come into play that might give you this. 606 01:22:58,500 --> 01:23:00,125 So it doesn't have to be directly in the law. 607 01:23:00,458 --> 01:23:03,208 But a private right of action basically says if I figure out and 608 01:23:03,208 --> 01:23:06,958 can show I'm pretty sure I can show that I was just discriminated 609 01:23:06,958 --> 01:23:10,250 for some reason and I was given a 610 01:23:10,250 --> 01:23:12,125 way worse price than somebody else. 611 01:23:12,916 --> 01:23:16,375 Let's say through surveillance, they figure out that I just had a 612 01:23:16,375 --> 01:23:21,000 death in my family and I went to go shop for a flight at Delta dot 613 01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:23,208 com and Delta dot com gets information to 614 01:23:23,208 --> 01:23:25,291 the back door carries hard up right now. 615 01:23:25,291 --> 01:23:26,000 You really need to fight. 616 01:23:26,250 --> 01:23:27,000 Let's charge you more. 617 01:23:27,458 --> 01:23:29,666 Now, maybe it's a bad example because I know some airlines actually 618 01:23:29,666 --> 01:23:31,416 have bereaved net fares and whatnot that 619 01:23:31,416 --> 01:23:33,750 are usually cheaper for a last bit of flights. 620 01:23:33,750 --> 01:23:35,250 But anyway, let's just say that that's what happened. 621 01:23:35,250 --> 01:23:36,625 I can show and prove that that happened. 622 01:23:37,125 --> 01:23:40,916 I if I had a private right of action could personally sue. 623 01:23:41,916 --> 01:23:44,000 Whereas if you don't have a private right of action, which is what 624 01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,500 I think is going on here, you actually have to get the state 625 01:23:46,500 --> 01:23:48,375 attorney general to sue on your behalf. 626 01:23:49,041 --> 01:23:51,500 So probably have to have a lot of people complain about it or they 627 01:23:51,500 --> 01:23:53,500 have to be a really egregious case because 628 01:23:53,500 --> 01:23:54,750 they've got other things they're doing, too. 629 01:23:54,750 --> 01:23:55,041 Right. 630 01:23:55,041 --> 01:23:57,333 So without a private right of action, some of these things sound 631 01:23:57,333 --> 01:24:00,333 good on paper, but in reality, don't have a lot of teeth to them. 632 01:24:00,916 --> 01:24:03,916 Also remains to be seen if someone gets brought up on this with the 633 01:24:03,916 --> 01:24:05,625 you know what the remedy is going to be. 634 01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:07,875 Is it going to be the margin of a lot of money or is it like a lot 635 01:24:07,875 --> 01:24:09,500 of things with meta and all those companies? 636 01:24:09,500 --> 01:24:10,833 It's going to be the cost of doing business. 637 01:24:11,375 --> 01:24:11,583 Right. 638 01:24:11,583 --> 01:24:12,458 Like, oh, it's a fine. 639 01:24:12,458 --> 01:24:13,625 It's a small fine. 640 01:24:13,833 --> 01:24:15,583 We'll pay that whenever you can make that happen. 641 01:24:15,583 --> 01:24:16,875 We'll pay that because we're still going to make money. 642 01:24:17,208 --> 01:24:18,375 So I don't know about that. 643 01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:24,208 I will also say that I just did an interview with Justin Brookman 644 01:24:24,208 --> 01:24:26,541 from Consumer Reports and Eric Gardner from More Perfect Union. 645 01:24:26,541 --> 01:24:29,000 They did a real interesting study about this actually, where they 646 01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:31,208 got a whole bunch of people into a room together at the same time 647 01:24:31,208 --> 01:24:34,333 on the same phone on the same IP, the same websites and said, OK, 648 01:24:34,333 --> 01:24:36,541 everybody find this item and buy it right now. 649 01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:39,416 And they found that there were differing prices for a lot of these 650 01:24:39,416 --> 01:24:42,000 things and they kept track of this and looked into it. 651 01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:44,333 So if you're interested, you should definitely check that out. 652 01:24:44,791 --> 01:24:48,333 But there are things that we kind of do this for already today to 653 01:24:48,333 --> 01:24:50,458 the kind of muddies the waters like if you think about it like 654 01:24:50,458 --> 01:24:52,416 airline tickets, like no one gets the 655 01:24:52,416 --> 01:24:54,500 same damn price for an airline ticket. 656 01:24:54,875 --> 01:24:55,833 It depends on when you buy it. 657 01:24:55,833 --> 01:24:57,500 Depends on what not just what fare you want, 658 01:24:57,500 --> 01:24:59,666 but like what things are going on right now. 659 01:24:59,666 --> 01:25:00,833 And it could be fuel prices, but 660 01:25:00,833 --> 01:25:02,625 airline tickets are weird this way. 661 01:25:02,750 --> 01:25:04,083 There's surge pricing for Uber. 662 01:25:04,541 --> 01:25:06,125 Does that fall under this category? 663 01:25:06,958 --> 01:25:08,125 You know, I don't know. 664 01:25:08,625 --> 01:25:10,375 So those are just some of my initial 665 01:25:10,375 --> 01:25:12,791 thoughts on this after I read this article. 666 01:25:12,791 --> 01:25:14,083 I think it's good that we're calling it out. 667 01:25:14,625 --> 01:25:16,958 I think I don't think a lot of people understand this. 668 01:25:16,958 --> 01:25:19,625 I think that surveillance pricing is one of these issues that is 669 01:25:19,625 --> 01:25:23,750 finally going to make a lot of people sit up and notice all this 670 01:25:23,750 --> 01:25:25,458 data gathering is a real problem. 671 01:25:25,458 --> 01:25:26,375 And this is why we care. 672 01:25:26,916 --> 01:25:28,166 Some of the other things are just kind 673 01:25:28,166 --> 01:25:30,000 of nebulous and like, yeah, I don't care. 674 01:25:30,208 --> 01:25:31,041 I get targeted ads. 675 01:25:31,291 --> 01:25:31,541 Fine. 676 01:25:32,250 --> 01:25:33,916 I want to look at an ad that I don't want to see. 677 01:25:34,208 --> 01:25:35,875 Show me those ads that are targeted. 678 01:25:36,166 --> 01:25:36,458 That's good. 679 01:25:36,458 --> 01:25:37,000 I like that. 680 01:25:37,458 --> 01:25:39,208 This is where this is going to hit home. 681 01:25:39,416 --> 01:25:41,416 I think this is actually an issue that's going to get traction. 682 01:25:41,791 --> 01:25:42,458 What do you think? 683 01:25:43,875 --> 01:25:45,041 No, I totally agree. 684 01:25:45,500 --> 01:25:47,250 And it's funny on that note. 685 01:25:47,250 --> 01:25:49,583 I am so backlogged on podcasts today. 686 01:25:49,583 --> 01:25:52,125 I finally listened to your freely episode with McNeroll. 687 01:25:52,416 --> 01:25:56,125 Oh, you mentioned that like, okay, coming up, we're going to be 688 01:25:56,125 --> 01:25:57,625 talking about, you know, consumer 689 01:25:57,625 --> 01:25:59,125 reports and how they put everybody in the room. 690 01:25:59,125 --> 01:26:00,416 So while you were talking, I'm like, was 691 01:26:00,416 --> 01:26:02,041 that his podcast or was that somebody else? 692 01:26:02,208 --> 01:26:02,875 Where did I hear that? 693 01:26:03,416 --> 01:26:07,250 But, um, yeah, no, I, it's another podcast I listened to. 694 01:26:07,375 --> 01:26:09,500 Um, they talked about this and that was his take. 695 01:26:09,500 --> 01:26:12,125 He's like, he's like, no, I think like, um, I mean, he didn't come 696 01:26:12,125 --> 01:26:13,541 right out and say like, I think this would be 697 01:26:13,541 --> 01:26:16,166 awesome, but he, he's just such an optimistic person. 698 01:26:16,166 --> 01:26:17,958 He's just like, I wouldn't mind if they use my 699 01:26:17,958 --> 01:26:19,541 data to like, give me a discount or something. 700 01:26:19,541 --> 01:26:21,833 I'm like, yeah, but the difference is they're going to give you a 701 01:26:21,833 --> 01:26:25,500 10% discount and somebody else a 20% discount or like, they're 702 01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:28,333 going to charge you a little bit more and then give you a discount. 703 01:26:28,333 --> 01:26:30,666 So it's the same price, which Amazon already does that anyways, but 704 01:26:30,666 --> 01:26:32,833 yeah, that's actually the point that came up with the thing is 705 01:26:32,833 --> 01:26:34,458 that, is that what often what they do is they 706 01:26:34,458 --> 01:26:36,625 changed it's all psychological games, right? 707 01:26:36,625 --> 01:26:40,166 So it's, they show you a list price that wasn't the real, the MSRP 708 01:26:40,166 --> 01:26:42,625 or whatever, and they show you seven bucks 709 01:26:42,625 --> 01:26:44,291 for you, but you know, five bucks for me. 710 01:26:44,291 --> 01:26:45,333 And then they sell it for three bucks. 711 01:26:45,833 --> 01:26:47,458 One of us thinks they're getting a $4 discount. 712 01:26:47,458 --> 01:26:49,000 One of us thinks they're getting a $2 discount. 713 01:26:49,875 --> 01:26:50,708 You're both paying the same price. 714 01:26:50,708 --> 01:26:52,000 So it works in other ways too. 715 01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:52,916 This whole surveillance thing. 716 01:26:54,166 --> 01:26:54,791 Yeah, for sure. 717 01:26:55,208 --> 01:26:56,708 Um, but no, I, I agree with you. 718 01:26:56,708 --> 01:26:59,958 Like I feel like this is where this is unfortunately one of those 719 01:26:59,958 --> 01:27:02,958 moments where like privacy, a lot of the time the hypotheticals 720 01:27:02,958 --> 01:27:05,375 have to become real before people start to notice it. 721 01:27:05,375 --> 01:27:07,958 Like we've, we've already seen with cars now, you know, that that 722 01:27:07,958 --> 01:27:11,833 stuff is used to influence your insurance rate, which I, I think I 723 01:27:11,833 --> 01:27:14,500 told this story on a previous episode of like, I just moved to a 724 01:27:14,500 --> 01:27:18,458 new area and I decided I would take the hit and get like the 725 01:27:18,458 --> 01:27:20,708 little, um, the little tracker thing you plug into your car. 726 01:27:20,708 --> 01:27:21,208 It's not on my phone. 727 01:27:21,416 --> 01:27:22,291 It's on the car. 728 01:27:22,625 --> 01:27:23,625 Well, because it was like, it would 729 01:27:23,625 --> 01:27:25,875 cut my insurance rate in half, but it 730 01:27:25,875 --> 01:27:27,666 kept being the ODB two dongle. 731 01:27:28,125 --> 01:27:28,416 Yeah. 732 01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:30,041 But it kept dinging me. 733 01:27:30,250 --> 01:27:33,000 When I asked them, I'm like, I need to return this thing because my 734 01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:34,083 insurance is going to be more than 735 01:27:34,083 --> 01:27:35,333 if I hadn't bought the damn thing. 736 01:27:36,083 --> 01:27:38,541 And you know, they were like, it was so funny because they were 737 01:27:38,541 --> 01:27:42,000 like, okay, well, um, I mean, some of it is like, you're, you know, 738 01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:43,291 you're driving, which I explained. 739 01:27:43,291 --> 01:27:45,416 I'm like, yeah, I'm in an area with really aggressive drivers. 740 01:27:45,416 --> 01:27:46,750 Like there's nothing I can do about that. 741 01:27:47,250 --> 01:27:49,166 And then also some of it was like, you take a lot of short, 742 01:27:49,166 --> 01:27:51,875 inconsistent trips and I'm like, cause I work from home and I just, 743 01:27:52,291 --> 01:27:54,083 I just run to the store when I need to, 744 01:27:54,083 --> 01:27:55,958 like I don't commute to an office every day. 745 01:27:55,958 --> 01:27:56,791 What do you want from me? 746 01:27:56,791 --> 01:28:00,708 But yeah, it's, you know, anyway, sorry, that was a, you know, 747 01:28:00,875 --> 01:28:03,250 we're, we're at the point now where like our car 748 01:28:03,250 --> 01:28:05,500 data is being used to determine insurance rates. 749 01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:06,458 And now like this stuff could be 750 01:28:06,458 --> 01:28:08,416 used to determine individual pricing. 751 01:28:08,416 --> 01:28:09,083 And this is different. 752 01:28:09,875 --> 01:28:12,708 Um, I know I've said this before, but for anybody who doesn't know, 753 01:28:13,125 --> 01:28:16,166 this is different from surge pricing or dynamic pricing, right? 754 01:28:16,166 --> 01:28:17,208 Cause that affects everybody. 755 01:28:17,208 --> 01:28:20,208 You know, if you, the example I use is if you're at a concert and 756 01:28:20,208 --> 01:28:22,875 the concert's over and you call an Uber, it's going to be more 757 01:28:22,875 --> 01:28:25,333 expensive because it's a concert. 758 01:28:25,333 --> 01:28:25,916 It's crowding. 759 01:28:25,916 --> 01:28:27,541 Everybody's trying to get home, but it's 760 01:28:27,541 --> 01:28:29,000 going to be more expensive for everybody. 761 01:28:29,125 --> 01:28:31,541 The surveillance part comes in where it's more expensive for you 762 01:28:31,541 --> 01:28:33,750 because your phone's at 10% and they know that 763 01:28:33,750 --> 01:28:36,458 you can't afford to wait for traffic to die down. 764 01:28:36,458 --> 01:28:37,791 So you say that, but that was a thing. 765 01:28:37,791 --> 01:28:40,333 Uber was one of the things, if you give it permissions, the Uber 766 01:28:40,333 --> 01:28:42,291 app was looking at the charge on your phone. 767 01:28:42,291 --> 01:28:44,291 And if you were charged was low on your phone, they figured you 768 01:28:44,291 --> 01:28:45,625 were desperate and they would give you a different price. 769 01:28:46,041 --> 01:28:49,958 Also, as Cory doctor was very common to point out or very, um, the 770 01:28:49,958 --> 01:28:53,125 drivers themselves are subject to kind 771 01:28:53,125 --> 01:28:54,875 of surveillance pricing as well, as well. 772 01:28:54,916 --> 01:28:59,041 Like what they are offered for a ride before they accept it varies 773 01:28:59,041 --> 01:29:01,291 depending on factors on their end too. 774 01:29:01,291 --> 01:29:04,833 And it's just, it's this whole algorithmic game that is all, you 775 01:29:04,833 --> 01:29:07,583 know, it's very untransparent to the people that affects, but the 776 01:29:07,583 --> 01:29:09,083 companies are using it to make a lot of money. 777 01:29:09,541 --> 01:29:11,666 There was, when I was talking to these guys, uh, one of the things 778 01:29:11,666 --> 01:29:14,500 I thought was interesting was the whole, the whole point of this is 779 01:29:14,500 --> 01:29:15,541 they don't want to leave money on the table. 780 01:29:15,541 --> 01:29:15,791 Right? 781 01:29:15,791 --> 01:29:19,750 So all these companies want to charge you as much as possible and 782 01:29:19,750 --> 01:29:22,000 still get you to buy you personally. 783 01:29:22,708 --> 01:29:26,541 Like what, how much can I charge Carrie and get him to buy without 784 01:29:26,541 --> 01:29:27,916 charging him too much so he walks away? 785 01:29:27,916 --> 01:29:28,666 It's same thing with Nate. 786 01:29:28,666 --> 01:29:29,500 That could be a different price. 787 01:29:30,250 --> 01:29:33,166 And so, and it's called a customer surplus. 788 01:29:33,166 --> 01:29:35,458 Whatever they, whatever they left on the table of Carrie, if I 789 01:29:35,458 --> 01:29:36,500 charge Carrie seven bucks for 790 01:29:36,500 --> 01:29:38,750 something turns out Carrie would have paid 10. 791 01:29:38,750 --> 01:29:40,083 And so that that's three bucks. 792 01:29:40,083 --> 01:29:41,833 I didn't make that's the way they look at that. 793 01:29:41,833 --> 01:29:42,625 And that's what they're trying to 794 01:29:42,625 --> 01:29:44,541 solve with this surveillance pricing. 795 01:29:46,500 --> 01:29:47,625 Yeah, for sure. 796 01:29:48,166 --> 01:29:50,958 Um, for the record real quick on the Uber one, I don't know if they 797 01:29:50,958 --> 01:29:53,208 were ever like convicted of that, but yeah, I do remember that was 798 01:29:53,208 --> 01:29:55,625 like a, um, somebody alleges that was, that was the thing. 799 01:29:55,916 --> 01:30:00,458 But yeah, it's a Vonnegate here says Wendy's had plans to introduce 800 01:30:00,458 --> 01:30:02,750 surge pricing that they pulled back because of backlash. 801 01:30:02,750 --> 01:30:03,500 I vaguely remember that. 802 01:30:03,875 --> 01:30:04,791 What was the brand? 803 01:30:05,041 --> 01:30:05,791 Oh, surge price. 804 01:30:05,791 --> 01:30:06,291 Okay, sure. 805 01:30:07,250 --> 01:30:07,416 Yeah. 806 01:30:07,750 --> 01:30:08,583 I don't, I don't know. 807 01:30:09,250 --> 01:30:09,875 Uh, that's weird. 808 01:30:09,875 --> 01:30:11,833 Everybody's trying to get in on, which I know like for the record, 809 01:30:11,833 --> 01:30:13,416 I understand like welcome to capitalism. 810 01:30:13,416 --> 01:30:14,791 Everybody's trying to make as much money 811 01:30:14,791 --> 01:30:17,166 as possible, but like it's still just crazy. 812 01:30:17,166 --> 01:30:18,541 Like is nothing sacred, man? 813 01:30:18,833 --> 01:30:19,125 I don't know. 814 01:30:19,125 --> 01:30:21,000 There's still some basic fairness that needs to be in there. 815 01:30:21,083 --> 01:30:23,000 And this is something I bring up all the time when people talk 816 01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:26,583 about capitalism, unfettered capitalism is still not good. 817 01:30:26,583 --> 01:30:29,375 I mean, the way I usually put it is that any game worth playing 818 01:30:29,375 --> 01:30:32,208 has, has rules and any game with enough 819 01:30:32,208 --> 01:30:34,833 consequences needs a referee to enforce those rules. 820 01:30:34,833 --> 01:30:37,541 Do you need fairness or it's capitalism has to 821 01:30:37,541 --> 01:30:39,875 be fair at its basic level or it's predatory. 822 01:30:41,083 --> 01:30:42,291 Yeah, for sure. 823 01:30:43,875 --> 01:30:45,791 Um, yeah, I don't think I have much 824 01:30:45,791 --> 01:30:48,125 to add to that one, um, personally. 825 01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:53,958 So I guess, uh, let's move on to our next section. 826 01:30:54,083 --> 01:30:57,125 Um, in a little bit here, we're going to talk about meta and a meta 827 01:30:57,125 --> 01:31:01,208 is basically key logging their employees, um, to train AI. 828 01:31:01,708 --> 01:31:03,750 But before we talk about that, which 829 01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:05,583 should be fun because I love making fun of meta. 830 01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:07,958 Um, first we're going to give some quick updates. 831 01:31:08,375 --> 01:31:10,500 Um, we're going to talk a little about a little 832 01:31:10,500 --> 01:31:12,375 bit about what's been going on at privacy guides. 833 01:31:13,291 --> 01:31:16,083 So for anybody who is not subscribed to our newsletter or our 834 01:31:16,083 --> 01:31:18,916 YouTube channel or any of our socials or anything, uh, you really 835 01:31:18,916 --> 01:31:22,625 should be because we have a new interview out with Carissa Bailey's 836 01:31:22,625 --> 01:31:26,583 and, um, she talked about AI and actually just this thing we were 837 01:31:26,583 --> 01:31:29,416 just talking about now about how, um, AI and predictive algorithms 838 01:31:29,416 --> 01:31:33,250 are making things less fair and not more fair and really taking 839 01:31:33,250 --> 01:31:34,791 away a lot of opportunity from people. 840 01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:36,000 Um, amazing video. 841 01:31:36,833 --> 01:31:37,916 I don't have it on me. 842 01:31:37,916 --> 01:31:38,583 It's in the coffee table. 843 01:31:38,750 --> 01:31:41,541 Um, but I, uh, I preordered her book and it 844 01:31:41,541 --> 01:31:43,166 got to me like the day before it came out. 845 01:31:43,166 --> 01:31:44,000 So that was super cool. 846 01:31:44,291 --> 01:31:45,541 I got to read a little bit of it on the plane. 847 01:31:45,875 --> 01:31:47,000 It is so far. 848 01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:48,291 It is amazing as always. 849 01:31:48,625 --> 01:31:49,666 Um, she's an amazing author. 850 01:31:50,583 --> 01:31:54,583 Uh, in other news, Jonah put up a video about the parents decide 851 01:31:54,583 --> 01:31:56,541 act that we covered a little bit last week. 852 01:31:56,541 --> 01:32:01,375 Um, we covered that last week before the text of the bill was out. 853 01:32:01,375 --> 01:32:03,750 So we were kind of going off of PR statement that the 854 01:32:03,750 --> 01:32:05,916 representative put out, but Jonah actually 855 01:32:05,916 --> 01:32:08,666 read the text of the bill and kind of had 856 01:32:08,666 --> 01:32:10,041 some, it's actually pretty short. 857 01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:11,375 Oh, okay. 858 01:32:11,708 --> 01:32:13,041 I, I didn't have time to read it, 859 01:32:13,041 --> 01:32:15,791 but, um, yeah, Jonah had some hot takes. 860 01:32:15,875 --> 01:32:17,500 Uh, he kind of disagreed with everybody. 861 01:32:17,875 --> 01:32:20,541 And um, you know, I mean, it shows there's so 862 01:32:20,541 --> 01:32:23,041 many comments on that video, which that's great. 863 01:32:23,041 --> 01:32:24,750 I mean, you know, we're, we're having discussion, which I think is 864 01:32:24,750 --> 01:32:27,833 awesome, but, um, you don't have to agree with him obviously. 865 01:32:28,083 --> 01:32:30,791 But I think if you want to hear a different perspective on it, I 866 01:32:30,791 --> 01:32:32,166 would say definitely go check that out. 867 01:32:32,458 --> 01:32:33,500 And like I said, you may not agree 868 01:32:33,500 --> 01:32:36,041 with him, but it's, it's another opinion. 869 01:32:36,416 --> 01:32:37,833 Well, for what it's worth, I agree with him. 870 01:32:37,916 --> 01:32:39,583 Um, and I, and I don't like the age gating 871 01:32:39,583 --> 01:32:42,000 stuff and I don't like the ID verification stuff. 872 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,625 That is not what this bill is. 873 01:32:43,625 --> 01:32:44,583 So that's the, that's the thing. 874 01:32:44,875 --> 01:32:45,583 It's not that long. 875 01:32:45,583 --> 01:32:46,708 It's like almost a one pager. 876 01:32:47,291 --> 01:32:48,791 So it's, it is worth listening. 877 01:32:48,791 --> 01:32:51,791 It definitely, I watched Jonah's video and it's what it watched 878 01:32:51,791 --> 01:32:55,333 that before you make your decision because I, I, I have knee jerk 879 01:32:55,333 --> 01:32:56,625 reaction to whenever I see these kinds 880 01:32:56,625 --> 01:32:58,166 of bills because so many of them are bad. 881 01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:01,375 This is one you need to take a look at because it's none of this is 882 01:33:01,375 --> 01:33:04,291 good, but I think this has an interesting approach. 883 01:33:04,625 --> 01:33:05,958 So I think it's worth at least considering. 884 01:33:07,583 --> 01:33:09,500 Yeah, for the record, I don't really know how I feel about it 885 01:33:09,500 --> 01:33:11,791 because I think Jonah really did make a lot of good points, but I 886 01:33:11,791 --> 01:33:15,458 think a lot of it is also like, at least the, the what I heard from 887 01:33:15,458 --> 01:33:17,541 it was like, assuming this doesn't get 888 01:33:17,541 --> 01:33:19,791 abused and I'm very cynical of government. 889 01:33:19,791 --> 01:33:22,875 So I don't know, but I also full, full 890 01:33:22,875 --> 01:33:24,625 honesty, I think Jonah's a lot smarter than me. 891 01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:27,708 So even if I don't fully believe him, I'm still going to listen. 892 01:33:28,541 --> 01:33:29,000 Oh yeah. 893 01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:29,958 I mean, there's still problems with it. 894 01:33:29,958 --> 01:33:31,208 I mean, it's, it's definitely not perfect. 895 01:33:31,208 --> 01:33:32,541 And there's always a slippery slope 896 01:33:32,541 --> 01:33:35,208 article, uh, argument against a lot of that's true. 897 01:33:35,208 --> 01:33:37,833 That's what it starts out being good and then ends up going wrong. 898 01:33:37,833 --> 01:33:39,791 And so as soon as you enable it once it 899 01:33:39,791 --> 01:33:41,166 might start out being good and then go to crap. 900 01:33:41,458 --> 01:33:43,583 That is most definitely possible. 901 01:33:44,375 --> 01:33:47,500 But it's worth the debating by looking at this bill. 902 01:33:48,833 --> 01:33:49,375 Yeah, for sure. 903 01:33:49,541 --> 01:33:50,541 And that's, that's a really good point. 904 01:33:50,541 --> 01:33:52,666 Like we can make the slippery slope argument about anything doesn't 905 01:33:52,666 --> 01:33:53,500 always mean it's going to happen. 906 01:33:53,833 --> 01:33:54,458 So that's true. 907 01:33:56,291 --> 01:33:58,875 And we do have another video is already in the editing phase. 908 01:33:58,875 --> 01:34:00,458 And all I will say is that it is a tutorial 909 01:34:00,458 --> 01:34:02,416 that some people have been asking for for a while. 910 01:34:02,833 --> 01:34:04,083 I'm really excited about it. 911 01:34:04,083 --> 01:34:06,500 Like I just, I've told you all, I do like the initial cuts. 912 01:34:06,500 --> 01:34:07,500 Like I'll record something. 913 01:34:07,500 --> 01:34:08,833 I'll do like a rough cut to get rid of 914 01:34:08,833 --> 01:34:10,875 all the pauses and the starting over. 915 01:34:11,041 --> 01:34:14,791 And, um, even that initial cut, I was like, damn, I don't, I'm not 916 01:34:14,791 --> 01:34:17,458 normally one of those like, I'm so good at this kind of people. 917 01:34:17,458 --> 01:34:18,666 But even I was sitting there, I was like, I 918 01:34:18,666 --> 01:34:19,958 think this is going to turn out really good. 919 01:34:20,041 --> 01:34:21,833 So I'm excited to share that with y'all. 920 01:34:21,833 --> 01:34:25,333 But, uh, and then we wrote a bunch of articles this week. 921 01:34:25,333 --> 01:34:26,250 It was a really busy week. 922 01:34:26,500 --> 01:34:30,166 Um, Apple has fixed the, uh, the issue that was causing signal 923 01:34:30,166 --> 01:34:32,458 notifications to be stored on phones. 924 01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,833 Uh, Madison Square Garden, I think it was wired, did like a real 925 01:34:35,833 --> 01:34:38,500 deep dive into their facial recognition software. 926 01:34:39,666 --> 01:34:42,208 I got to walk by MSG this week, so I'm pretty sure I'm on there. 927 01:34:42,583 --> 01:34:47,375 Um, fingerprint.com, fingerprint.com discovered a vulnerability 928 01:34:47,375 --> 01:34:49,333 that can link your tour browsing together. 929 01:34:49,916 --> 01:34:51,208 Definitely go check those out. 930 01:34:51,208 --> 01:34:53,916 Cause unfortunately we're not covering any of those stories on the 931 01:34:53,916 --> 01:34:55,000 podcast this week, but they're good, 932 01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:57,333 important stories that are worth knowing about. 933 01:34:58,166 --> 01:35:00,541 And on that note, I'm going to turn it over to Carrie and you can 934 01:35:00,541 --> 01:35:01,541 tell us a little bit about what's 935 01:35:01,541 --> 01:35:03,541 coming up over on Firewall's no stop dragons. 936 01:35:04,625 --> 01:35:04,916 Right. 937 01:35:05,541 --> 01:35:06,958 Well, you beat me to all the interviews. 938 01:35:07,000 --> 01:35:07,833 So, uh, 939 01:35:08,875 --> 01:35:11,500 my interview with Chris of Lee's is going to come out Monday and I 940 01:35:11,500 --> 01:35:12,750 have had a chance to read the book. 941 01:35:12,750 --> 01:35:13,375 It is amazing. 942 01:35:13,791 --> 01:35:15,666 Privacy is power, which you've got behind you on the wall. 943 01:35:15,666 --> 01:35:16,958 There is still my go-to. 944 01:35:16,958 --> 01:35:18,458 Like if I recommend one book to 945 01:35:18,458 --> 01:35:19,916 anybody about privacy, it's that one. 946 01:35:20,333 --> 01:35:23,083 If you have not read it, you need to read it and buy it for your 947 01:35:23,083 --> 01:35:25,166 friends and family because it's, it's just that good. 948 01:35:25,958 --> 01:35:29,333 Um, she's a philosophy professor and she approaches this from a, 949 01:35:29,333 --> 01:35:32,333 from a very human angle and a very, very interesting and 950 01:35:32,333 --> 01:35:34,291 provocative angle and says a lot of things. 951 01:35:34,750 --> 01:35:36,750 I've been doing this stuff for a while when I read that book. 952 01:35:36,833 --> 01:35:38,291 And there were still points of view in that book. 953 01:35:38,291 --> 01:35:39,750 They're like, wow, I really liked it. 954 01:35:39,750 --> 01:35:41,000 That it really, that I really took home. 955 01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:41,750 So anyway, so that's really good. 956 01:35:42,458 --> 01:35:43,833 Uh, Chris is amazing and I got a chance 957 01:35:43,833 --> 01:35:45,083 to talk to her as well about her new book. 958 01:35:45,083 --> 01:35:47,000 So she and I have an interview coming out Monday. 959 01:35:47,500 --> 01:35:48,708 I also talked with Cindy Cohen. 960 01:35:48,708 --> 01:35:49,541 You've already talked with her. 961 01:35:49,666 --> 01:35:52,500 Uh, and so I did talk to her as well. 962 01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:55,208 Another amazing woman and another great book. 963 01:35:55,208 --> 01:35:56,458 She's got out privacy's defender. 964 01:35:56,458 --> 01:35:57,458 That's well worth a read. 965 01:35:58,000 --> 01:35:59,375 Uh, so both of those interviews are 966 01:35:59,375 --> 01:36:01,166 coming out, uh, for me, the next two. 967 01:36:01,666 --> 01:36:02,791 Uh, then this is something I've 968 01:36:02,791 --> 01:36:04,208 been wanting to talk about for a while. 969 01:36:04,458 --> 01:36:06,250 Uh, we talk about surveillance all the time and mass surveillance 970 01:36:06,250 --> 01:36:08,791 all the time, but I wanted specifically to talk about employee 971 01:36:08,791 --> 01:36:11,166 surveillance and which is a great, it's going to 972 01:36:11,166 --> 01:36:12,875 be a great segue when we get to the meta article. 973 01:36:13,916 --> 01:36:16,250 Um, and so I found a couple of people to 974 01:36:16,250 --> 01:36:18,875 talk to me about the technology behind it. 975 01:36:18,875 --> 01:36:21,833 Like the, the, the MDM profiles and things of what really happens 976 01:36:21,833 --> 01:36:25,375 when you use your own device at work and what you should expect for 977 01:36:25,375 --> 01:36:27,583 privacy when you're using company resources or on 978 01:36:27,583 --> 01:36:30,083 company property, which spoiler alert is nothing. 979 01:36:31,083 --> 01:36:31,791 You have no privacy. 980 01:36:32,166 --> 01:36:33,916 Um, so we talk a lot about that. 981 01:36:33,916 --> 01:36:35,875 So I get, those are kind of the interviews I got coming up. 982 01:36:36,208 --> 01:36:40,291 Um, and also maybe I could say this for the end when we wrap up, 983 01:36:40,291 --> 01:36:41,583 but I've got some big news to talk about 984 01:36:41,583 --> 01:36:43,250 with the, uh, the book and the podcast. 985 01:36:43,250 --> 01:36:44,916 I'll say that for the end when we wrap up. 986 01:36:45,583 --> 01:36:46,000 All right. 987 01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:46,500 I'm excited. 988 01:36:46,500 --> 01:36:47,875 And I'll definitely be listening to those interviews. 989 01:36:48,125 --> 01:36:48,291 Yeah. 990 01:36:48,291 --> 01:36:53,041 Karisa writes in plain English, um, but like so articulate. 991 01:36:53,291 --> 01:36:53,916 I love it. 992 01:36:54,250 --> 01:36:57,750 So, um, yeah, so all this is made possible 993 01:36:57,750 --> 01:36:59,708 by all our supporters for privacy guides. 994 01:36:59,708 --> 01:37:02,541 You can sign up for a membership or donate at privacy guides.org. 995 01:37:02,791 --> 01:37:05,625 You can pick up some swag at shop.privacyguides.org. 996 01:37:05,791 --> 01:37:08,666 Like this awesome water bottle that I take everywhere. 997 01:37:08,666 --> 01:37:11,875 When I travel for firewalls, don't stop dragons, you can head over 998 01:37:11,875 --> 01:37:14,500 to firewalls, don't stop dragons.com, or I 999 01:37:14,500 --> 01:37:17,250 will fully admit your little, uh, FDSD.me. 1000 01:37:17,833 --> 01:37:18,750 I use that like crazy. 1001 01:37:19,041 --> 01:37:20,291 So just type that in. 1002 01:37:20,291 --> 01:37:21,333 If you're, if you're like me and that's a 1003 01:37:21,333 --> 01:37:22,750 lot to type and you make a lot of typos. 1004 01:37:23,250 --> 01:37:23,541 Oh, 1005 01:37:25,500 --> 01:37:27,958 I make so many typos and I'm a writer for a living. 1006 01:37:27,958 --> 01:37:28,500 Can you tell? 1007 01:37:28,916 --> 01:37:30,750 But, um, but yeah, that'll take you to his website. 1008 01:37:31,125 --> 01:37:33,208 You can get a copy of his book and learn more about the podcast. 1009 01:37:33,916 --> 01:37:36,541 But for now, um, I'm going to leave it with Carrie and we're going 1010 01:37:36,541 --> 01:37:40,083 to talk about Mozilla and anthropics mythos 1011 01:37:40,083 --> 01:37:41,833 that you guys may have heard so much about. 1012 01:37:42,500 --> 01:37:42,958 Yeah. 1013 01:37:42,958 --> 01:37:43,125 Yeah. 1014 01:37:43,125 --> 01:37:46,333 So I guess, uh, you guys haven't talked a lot about this show, so I 1015 01:37:46,333 --> 01:37:49,125 want to start by giving a little bit of background. 1016 01:37:49,125 --> 01:37:50,333 Cause I think that's going to be important. 1017 01:37:50,333 --> 01:37:53,291 I honestly, the, the takeaway from the art that we have a couple 1018 01:37:53,291 --> 01:37:55,333 articles, the tip takeaway from the articles is pretty short. 1019 01:37:55,333 --> 01:37:59,375 So, but I do want to talk about what mythos is and just general, 1020 01:37:59,541 --> 01:38:02,083 general generative AI and coding. 1021 01:38:02,416 --> 01:38:05,208 So I'm a retired and recovering software engineer. 1022 01:38:05,458 --> 01:38:07,875 I did it for, I mean, I've been writing code for 40 years. 1023 01:38:07,875 --> 01:38:09,041 I've been doing it professionally for 30. 1024 01:38:10,083 --> 01:38:13,041 Um, and I'm here to tell you this stuff is for real. 1025 01:38:13,041 --> 01:38:15,250 I, you, there's a lot of problems with AI. I 1026 01:38:15,250 --> 01:38:17,083 say this whenever I do it, my show, I've got these disclaimers, 1027 01:38:17,083 --> 01:38:19,208 like, like, yes, there are a lot of 1028 01:38:19,208 --> 01:38:20,458 environmental problems with the AI. 1029 01:38:20,458 --> 01:38:22,666 We didn't have to do it that way, but we did. 1030 01:38:22,958 --> 01:38:26,375 There's a lot of copyright problems and content things with AI. 1031 01:38:26,625 --> 01:38:28,208 We didn't have to do it that way, but we did. 1032 01:38:28,458 --> 01:38:31,000 But all that aside, if just from a strictly, from a coding 1033 01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:35,250 perspective, gen AI, LLMs, large language model, chat bots, you 1034 01:38:35,250 --> 01:38:38,041 know, your Clods, your Gemini's, your chat GPTs. 1035 01:38:39,041 --> 01:38:41,541 Um, turns out code is, is just 1036 01:38:41,541 --> 01:38:44,625 ideal for working in these situations. 1037 01:38:44,833 --> 01:38:48,541 LLMs training on code is, is almost perfect. 1038 01:38:48,916 --> 01:38:51,250 Um, there's always bugs in code. 1039 01:38:51,250 --> 01:38:54,500 I would have would have said that for my entire career. 1040 01:38:54,916 --> 01:38:57,000 We maybe get to the point where that's not true anymore, but in, 1041 01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:59,041 but before we get there, we're going to be finding a lot of bugs 1042 01:38:59,041 --> 01:39:00,333 and that's kind of what we're going to be talking about today. 1043 01:39:00,666 --> 01:39:04,958 So mythosis, the latest version of Claude, which is from anthropic. 1044 01:39:05,375 --> 01:39:09,583 And so they did this big song and dance release recently where they 1045 01:39:09,583 --> 01:39:11,500 said, we've got this new version of Claude. 1046 01:39:11,958 --> 01:39:13,541 It is so amazingly powerful. 1047 01:39:13,541 --> 01:39:17,416 It is so unbelievably powerful in coding and finding bugs and 1048 01:39:17,416 --> 01:39:20,041 exploiting vulnerabilities in software. 1049 01:39:20,041 --> 01:39:20,791 It is so good. 1050 01:39:21,375 --> 01:39:23,416 We can't give it to you yet. 1051 01:39:24,125 --> 01:39:27,000 So, so they created this thing called project glass wing and 1052 01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:31,833 project glass wing is this, I don't know, pseudo charity thing 1053 01:39:31,833 --> 01:39:33,083 where they said, okay, we're going to let 1054 01:39:33,083 --> 01:39:35,000 the quote unquote good guys have it first. 1055 01:39:35,833 --> 01:39:39,583 And so I think there's like 40 different companies that they're 1056 01:39:39,583 --> 01:39:41,666 giving it access to before they release it to the public. 1057 01:39:42,083 --> 01:39:45,291 They're running it on a lot of open source projects, which 1058 01:39:45,291 --> 01:39:47,125 especially a lot of the big ones, which is great. 1059 01:39:47,958 --> 01:39:50,666 Uh, we're going to find out in this next article when I finally get 1060 01:39:50,666 --> 01:39:52,750 to it, that Mozilla has used it to good effect. 1061 01:39:53,500 --> 01:39:57,375 But I'm, I'm here to tell you that this, these tools are the real 1062 01:39:57,375 --> 01:39:59,750 deal and there's a lot of hype behind this. 1063 01:39:59,750 --> 01:40:01,875 A lot of people are saying, oh, they're going to IPO this year. 1064 01:40:01,875 --> 01:40:03,791 They're just trying to get a lot of interest. 1065 01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:05,125 They are getting a lot of interest. 1066 01:40:05,625 --> 01:40:07,083 Uh, they're making such a big deal out of this. 1067 01:40:07,083 --> 01:40:07,958 It's all hyperbolic. 1068 01:40:07,958 --> 01:40:09,541 It's just, you know, it can't be this good. 1069 01:40:09,541 --> 01:40:13,583 It can't be this dangerous as a software engineer, in my opinion. 1070 01:40:13,583 --> 01:40:15,541 And that actually, it's just, it's not just my opinion. 1071 01:40:15,541 --> 01:40:16,500 There's actually a lot of 1072 01:40:16,500 --> 01:40:18,458 cybersecurity researchers who share this opinion. 1073 01:40:18,458 --> 01:40:20,833 And I can, if you're interested, I can maybe try to give you some 1074 01:40:20,833 --> 01:40:23,583 links, but, um, this is the real deal. 1075 01:40:23,833 --> 01:40:25,041 They are finding a lot of bugs. 1076 01:40:25,750 --> 01:40:28,000 Uh, one of the things that they point to, and then I'll get to the 1077 01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:30,750 story and I'll have more to say, but I'll finally get to the story 1078 01:40:30,750 --> 01:40:34,708 is somebody's keeping track of the meantime to exploit how long it 1079 01:40:34,708 --> 01:40:36,458 takes before a patch is released. 1080 01:40:36,458 --> 01:40:39,875 Like somebody's fixed a bug and then the bad guys find people who 1081 01:40:39,875 --> 01:40:41,500 have not updated their software yet and then 1082 01:40:41,500 --> 01:40:44,875 exploit it in the wild, like eight years ago. 1083 01:40:45,166 --> 01:40:46,041 It was like two years. 1084 01:40:46,250 --> 01:40:47,375 It took two years on average. 1085 01:40:47,375 --> 01:40:51,541 And I don't know what the, um, standard deviation on that is. 1086 01:40:51,875 --> 01:40:53,166 But anyway, the point is over the last 1087 01:40:53,166 --> 01:40:54,916 few years, it's come down very, very fast. 1088 01:40:54,916 --> 01:40:58,666 It's to the point where so far, I think this year, the meantime to 1089 01:40:58,666 --> 01:41:02,375 exploit between publishing a patch and somebody exploiting that 1090 01:41:02,375 --> 01:41:03,833 patch in the wild for somebody who has 1091 01:41:03,833 --> 01:41:06,125 not fixed their software yet is 10 hours. 1092 01:41:07,541 --> 01:41:08,708 That's that's nuts. 1093 01:41:08,708 --> 01:41:09,791 That's basically instantaneous. 1094 01:41:10,750 --> 01:41:12,041 I just need to chime in real quick. 1095 01:41:12,041 --> 01:41:12,875 I remember when I was on 1096 01:41:12,875 --> 01:41:14,541 surveillance report, it was like three days. 1097 01:41:14,833 --> 01:41:16,458 So it's going down constantly. 1098 01:41:16,583 --> 01:41:17,208 That's insane. 1099 01:41:17,833 --> 01:41:18,875 It's basically immediate. 1100 01:41:19,208 --> 01:41:20,750 So that is what these tools are doing. 1101 01:41:20,791 --> 01:41:24,750 So that is why anthropic basically said, okay, we can't, we can't 1102 01:41:24,750 --> 01:41:25,958 just release this to everybody yet. 1103 01:41:25,958 --> 01:41:28,125 We're going to let the, we're going to let the good guys have it 1104 01:41:28,125 --> 01:41:29,250 first and try to fix all their stuff. 1105 01:41:29,250 --> 01:41:30,500 And so that leads to this article. 1106 01:41:30,958 --> 01:41:33,458 And that is that Mozilla used this tool 1107 01:41:33,458 --> 01:41:36,625 and in the latest version, uh, well, okay. 1108 01:41:36,625 --> 01:41:37,833 So it's, it's a little fuzzy. 1109 01:41:38,083 --> 01:41:40,500 They said they found 271 bugs in Firefox. 1110 01:41:40,500 --> 01:41:41,708 I don't think they're all fixed in here 1111 01:41:41,708 --> 01:41:43,083 and I don't think they're all critical bugs. 1112 01:41:43,500 --> 01:41:45,208 Um, they fixed a lot of them in 1113 01:41:45,208 --> 01:41:46,833 Firefox one 50, which just came out. 1114 01:41:47,208 --> 01:41:50,000 So it does exactly what they said they wanted to do. 1115 01:41:50,041 --> 01:41:52,750 They wanted to give it to the two, you know, in this case, Mozilla 1116 01:41:52,750 --> 01:41:54,875 say, find all your bugs before the bad 1117 01:41:54,875 --> 01:41:58,000 guys do fix them now and then release. 1118 01:41:58,250 --> 01:42:00,250 And, you know, at some point soon, I don't think they've said when 1119 01:42:00,250 --> 01:42:03,791 they will eventually release this, but now this brings me to 1120 01:42:03,791 --> 01:42:05,208 another point is I want to say that. 1121 01:42:06,166 --> 01:42:09,708 Even if this particular version of Claude is not as good as they 1122 01:42:09,708 --> 01:42:11,500 say it is, the next one will be, but if 1123 01:42:11,500 --> 01:42:13,125 it's not them, it's going to be chat GPTs. 1124 01:42:13,125 --> 01:42:13,500 They're next. 1125 01:42:13,500 --> 01:42:14,583 They've got a cyber version out 1126 01:42:14,583 --> 01:42:16,000 now that they think is about as good. 1127 01:42:16,291 --> 01:42:19,583 And by the way, uh, opening, I released their chat GPT cyber and 1128 01:42:19,583 --> 01:42:22,333 said, we're also going to, they took a lot of pot shots at 1129 01:42:22,333 --> 01:42:24,625 anthropic without saying it by name and their press release. 1130 01:42:24,958 --> 01:42:26,750 But basically they're doing the same thing. 1131 01:42:26,750 --> 01:42:27,000 They're good. 1132 01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:28,875 They're not releasing it broadly yet either. 1133 01:42:29,208 --> 01:42:30,833 But even if these guys don't do it, someone's 1134 01:42:30,833 --> 01:42:32,458 going to do it and it's going to be out there. 1135 01:42:32,583 --> 01:42:33,208 That's going to happen. 1136 01:42:33,791 --> 01:42:37,458 So all I want to say, well, some of the things I want to say about 1137 01:42:37,458 --> 01:42:40,666 this, that to you guys, the audience and anybody, you know, that 1138 01:42:40,666 --> 01:42:42,250 has a business or works for a 1139 01:42:42,250 --> 01:42:44,208 company that might, well, that's everybody. 1140 01:42:45,250 --> 01:42:48,708 This is real and we need to be taking advantage of it now. 1141 01:42:48,708 --> 01:42:51,500 Uh, Steve Gibson on security now liking this to the Y2K thing. 1142 01:42:51,916 --> 01:42:52,875 It's like, this is coming. 1143 01:42:53,083 --> 01:42:53,750 It's going to happen. 1144 01:42:54,500 --> 01:42:55,666 We need to fix our software. 1145 01:42:55,666 --> 01:42:57,333 And it turns out back then, it ended up being a nothing burger 1146 01:42:57,333 --> 01:43:00,166 because we get, we had enough notice and we, we, we worked ahead 1147 01:43:00,166 --> 01:43:03,083 enough that when that actually happened, it was nothing really 1148 01:43:03,083 --> 01:43:05,166 happened because all the software had been fixed and we're all good 1149 01:43:05,166 --> 01:43:08,791 when the clock rolled over on January 1st of 20, 2000. 1150 01:43:09,791 --> 01:43:11,083 I don't think this is going to be like that at all. 1151 01:43:11,083 --> 01:43:12,583 There's a lot of existing software 1152 01:43:12,583 --> 01:43:13,750 out there that's not being updated. 1153 01:43:13,750 --> 01:43:16,500 Uh, on devices that are no longer supported, 1154 01:43:17,041 --> 01:43:18,833 people are not going to be on top of this stuff. 1155 01:43:19,166 --> 01:43:21,416 And so for all of that software that is already out there and 1156 01:43:21,416 --> 01:43:25,208 vulnerable, even if all these companies do get privileged access to 1157 01:43:25,208 --> 01:43:28,458 this tool ahead of time and fix these things at a time and release 1158 01:43:28,458 --> 01:43:30,625 their updates to this, those updates are 1159 01:43:30,625 --> 01:43:32,375 not going to be put on everywhere right away. 1160 01:43:32,750 --> 01:43:37,708 So for, I think companies and there's this white paper that, gosh, 1161 01:43:37,708 --> 01:43:39,125 I wish I could remember the name of it. 1162 01:43:39,125 --> 01:43:41,666 I'll maybe while you're talking or whatever, I'll look it up and 1163 01:43:41,666 --> 01:43:47,000 say, but these guys basically said you, you need to prepare now. 1164 01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:51,125 They're talking to like the, the CEOs and the CISOs of companies, 1165 01:43:51,125 --> 01:43:54,000 the chief information security offers and saying, this is real. 1166 01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:54,625 This is coming. 1167 01:43:54,625 --> 01:43:58,833 You guys need to prepare, like hire people, get ready for a big 1168 01:43:58,833 --> 01:44:00,625 wave of bugs to be found either before 1169 01:44:00,625 --> 01:44:02,000 you release, because you're using this tool. 1170 01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:05,125 You're privileged enough to get access to this at a time or the bad 1171 01:44:05,125 --> 01:44:07,041 guys are going to find them for you after the fact. 1172 01:44:07,291 --> 01:44:09,541 You're going to need to be ready to fix these things and quickly. 1173 01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:11,541 And for just regular everyday people that the company is going to 1174 01:44:11,541 --> 01:44:12,375 be able to fix, they're going to be able to fix this. 1175 01:44:12,375 --> 01:44:13,750 And so I think that's the kind of advice I'm giving is the advice 1176 01:44:13,750 --> 01:44:15,458 that we've always been giving, but it's more urgent. 1177 01:44:15,958 --> 01:44:19,208 You know, get your old, unsupported devices off the internet. 1178 01:44:20,125 --> 01:44:23,041 Make sure that you're not have internet holes in your firewall. 1179 01:44:23,416 --> 01:44:25,000 You can use tools like shields up and 1180 01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:26,583 show Dan to find those kind of things. 1181 01:44:27,166 --> 01:44:29,833 If you've got software that needs to be updated, get it updated. 1182 01:44:30,500 --> 01:44:33,750 You know, get your data offline as much as 1183 01:44:33,750 --> 01:44:36,250 you can, you know, because that if you got old 1184 01:44:37,625 --> 01:44:41,541 there, reduce that as much as you can now while, you know, until 1185 01:44:41,541 --> 01:44:43,041 because these things are going to be exploited. 1186 01:44:43,333 --> 01:44:44,125 I've been talking a lot. 1187 01:44:45,041 --> 01:44:46,041 I'm sure you've got some things to say. 1188 01:44:46,041 --> 01:44:46,875 So let me take a breath. 1189 01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:49,750 Nate, tell me what you think about 1190 01:44:49,750 --> 01:44:51,458 all this stuff I just put out there. 1191 01:44:52,250 --> 01:44:52,916 No, you're good. 1192 01:44:53,500 --> 01:44:56,208 Yeah, I mean, honestly, I agree with you like I. 1193 01:44:57,541 --> 01:45:00,125 It you said it really well, like AI has 1194 01:45:00,125 --> 01:45:02,458 so many problems and I'm not an AI Maxi. 1195 01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:04,375 You know, earlier I said that I do use 1196 01:45:04,375 --> 01:45:06,375 Leo quite a bit, but I'm fully aware. 1197 01:45:07,958 --> 01:45:09,500 Of, you know, the copyright issues, the 1198 01:45:09,500 --> 01:45:12,166 privacy issues, I try to use it sparingly. 1199 01:45:12,166 --> 01:45:13,541 I try to use it specifically for 1200 01:45:13,541 --> 01:45:15,208 like, hey, find this article or something. 1201 01:45:15,708 --> 01:45:21,500 I generally don't use it for creative stuff, but it is I've heard. 1202 01:45:23,916 --> 01:45:25,708 I feel like we covered this on an older episode. 1203 01:45:26,500 --> 01:45:29,916 There was a one of the top Linux maintainers was talking to the 1204 01:45:29,916 --> 01:45:34,416 register and he said that, you know, historically companies, open 1205 01:45:34,416 --> 01:45:36,750 source projects have had issues with AI bug reports. 1206 01:45:37,416 --> 01:45:38,958 Because there's just too many of 1207 01:45:38,958 --> 01:45:40,083 them and they can't keep up with them. 1208 01:45:40,333 --> 01:45:43,333 And but now he's in and this was like a month ago. 1209 01:45:43,333 --> 01:45:45,000 So now he's talking about two months ago or so. 1210 01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:46,500 But at the time of the interview, he's like, yeah. 1211 01:45:46,500 --> 01:45:47,958 And then like a month ago, all of a sudden it 1212 01:45:47,958 --> 01:45:49,666 was like a switch flipped and something changed. 1213 01:45:50,125 --> 01:45:51,750 And now, like a lot of these bug reports are 1214 01:45:51,750 --> 01:45:54,041 really good and they're actually really helpful. 1215 01:45:54,125 --> 01:45:56,666 And we're we're finding a lot of things and fixing them. 1216 01:45:57,208 --> 01:46:02,333 And so I think AI, like one of the valid use cases and again, like 1217 01:46:02,333 --> 01:46:03,958 we should have done it differently. 1218 01:46:03,958 --> 01:46:04,708 I'm not going to argue that. 1219 01:46:05,083 --> 01:46:06,541 But now that it's here, one thing it's 1220 01:46:06,541 --> 01:46:08,625 actually really good for is technical stuff. 1221 01:46:08,958 --> 01:46:12,125 And like I use it all the time to help me troubleshoot server. 1222 01:46:12,375 --> 01:46:15,583 Like you can ask Jonah, he used to be my go to person even before I 1223 01:46:15,583 --> 01:46:16,541 started working at Privacy Guides. 1224 01:46:16,833 --> 01:46:18,250 He was like my go to person where 1225 01:46:18,250 --> 01:46:19,458 I'm like, hey, I'm having a tech issue. 1226 01:46:19,458 --> 01:46:20,166 Can I pick your brain? 1227 01:46:20,666 --> 01:46:23,291 And now I think ever since I've started using AI for that, I think 1228 01:46:23,291 --> 01:46:26,791 I've only had to hit him up like once or twice like and I've had 1229 01:46:26,791 --> 01:46:29,291 one other issue that the AI was giving me bad information. 1230 01:46:29,291 --> 01:46:31,791 But I thankfully I able to imagine that you 1231 01:46:31,791 --> 01:46:33,291 read the logs and I might tell you what's wrong. 1232 01:46:33,666 --> 01:46:36,666 But you know, it's like it's really good. 1233 01:46:37,041 --> 01:46:40,708 Like 99 percent of the time it maybe not 99, but 1234 01:46:40,708 --> 01:46:42,833 for coding stuff specifically, it's really good. 1235 01:46:43,125 --> 01:46:46,666 And I think it's very I'm with you. 1236 01:46:46,666 --> 01:46:48,666 Like even if it does turn out that it's hype and it probably is 1237 01:46:48,666 --> 01:46:50,541 some hype like I mean, it's a company. 1238 01:46:50,750 --> 01:46:51,625 Yeah, they're trying to make money. 1239 01:46:51,625 --> 01:46:52,916 They're trying to get more investors. 1240 01:46:53,125 --> 01:46:55,333 Like there's always a little bit of B.S. marketing. 1241 01:46:55,958 --> 01:46:58,333 But even still, like I'm willing to bet 1242 01:46:58,333 --> 01:47:00,041 there's quite a bit of good substance under there. 1243 01:47:00,375 --> 01:47:02,416 And so it's it's good. 1244 01:47:02,500 --> 01:47:04,541 I guess what I'm getting at is it's good to see it being used for 1245 01:47:04,541 --> 01:47:06,416 something useful for once instead of like, 1246 01:47:06,416 --> 01:47:08,791 oh, let's make fake news and let's make a. 1247 01:47:08,875 --> 01:47:09,583 Oh, my God. 1248 01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:11,416 I've been raging the last couple of days 1249 01:47:11,416 --> 01:47:13,833 because I just uploaded a short video for the new oil. 1250 01:47:13,833 --> 01:47:15,291 I just uploaded one to like TikTok and stuff. 1251 01:47:15,875 --> 01:47:17,333 And every time I go to TikTok, I do it 1252 01:47:17,333 --> 01:47:18,833 on the computer and I'm not signed in. 1253 01:47:18,833 --> 01:47:20,375 So I get like the generic home page and 1254 01:47:20,375 --> 01:47:22,083 I swear to God, it's at least 50 percent. 1255 01:47:22,083 --> 01:47:24,708 AI slop like obviously a.i. slop. 1256 01:47:24,708 --> 01:47:27,958 And I'm just like, why are people using this website? 1257 01:47:28,916 --> 01:47:32,416 But, you know, it's so much like this is such a better use case for 1258 01:47:32,416 --> 01:47:35,458 that instead of, you know, I don't know. 1259 01:47:35,458 --> 01:47:36,333 Yeah, it's crazy. 1260 01:47:36,875 --> 01:47:37,083 All right. 1261 01:47:37,083 --> 01:47:40,000 So a few other points that I'll bring up is that coding in 1262 01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:41,583 particular, again, I'm a software engineer. 1263 01:47:41,583 --> 01:47:42,750 I've done this for a long time. 1264 01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:46,666 And one of the things that I think makes LLM supremely. 1265 01:47:48,083 --> 01:47:49,458 Good at doing code is code. 1266 01:47:49,958 --> 01:47:53,000 Software code has a very strict syntax and a very strict format. 1267 01:47:54,041 --> 01:47:55,500 And it's either right or it's wrong. 1268 01:47:55,500 --> 01:47:56,541 It'll either run or it won't. 1269 01:47:56,541 --> 01:47:58,500 Now, you can write code different ways to do the same thing. 1270 01:47:58,875 --> 01:48:00,875 But if you want code to work, it's got to 1271 01:48:00,875 --> 01:48:03,291 follow rules and they're pretty limited. 1272 01:48:03,583 --> 01:48:05,333 Unlike the English language, which has all 1273 01:48:05,333 --> 01:48:07,416 sorts of ambiguities, every language does right. 1274 01:48:08,083 --> 01:48:09,250 Coding language is very strict. 1275 01:48:09,583 --> 01:48:14,833 And so not only can you because it's so strict and the syntax is so 1276 01:48:14,833 --> 01:48:18,458 fixed, it makes it, I think, perfect for something like an LLM to 1277 01:48:18,458 --> 01:48:20,875 study lots of existing code that's already out there and then be 1278 01:48:20,875 --> 01:48:21,916 able to write new code from that. 1279 01:48:22,500 --> 01:48:26,083 You can also have it write tests and prove that 1280 01:48:26,083 --> 01:48:28,208 it works, which you can also do automatically. 1281 01:48:28,458 --> 01:48:32,333 So this entropic, these entropic tools and some of this is from 1282 01:48:32,333 --> 01:48:33,833 tools that are even before mythos. 1283 01:48:34,208 --> 01:48:35,833 But for mythos, what they told him was 1284 01:48:35,833 --> 01:48:38,708 literally this is the instructions to mythos. 1285 01:48:39,125 --> 01:48:39,916 Here's some code. 1286 01:48:40,833 --> 01:48:41,583 Read the code. 1287 01:48:42,291 --> 01:48:43,208 Find me a vulnerability. 1288 01:48:43,416 --> 01:48:44,208 And they walked away. 1289 01:48:45,500 --> 01:48:46,041 That's it. 1290 01:48:46,375 --> 01:48:47,083 And it found them. 1291 01:48:47,416 --> 01:48:48,083 It's that good. 1292 01:48:48,458 --> 01:48:49,666 And it's not some of these bugs. 1293 01:48:50,083 --> 01:48:52,541 If you're into cybersecurity and you'll know 1294 01:48:52,541 --> 01:48:54,791 that today, a lot of our software has gotten better. 1295 01:48:54,791 --> 01:48:55,583 It's gotten more secure. 1296 01:48:55,666 --> 01:48:58,416 We've put in lots of sorts of safeguards on software to prevent, 1297 01:48:58,958 --> 01:49:00,166 you know, it's a cat and mouse game. 1298 01:49:00,166 --> 01:49:03,458 You know, the cyber hackers figure out, you 1299 01:49:03,458 --> 01:49:05,583 know, oh, code is vulnerable in these ways. 1300 01:49:05,583 --> 01:49:09,041 And so we've actually rearchitected entire operating systems to not 1301 01:49:09,041 --> 01:49:10,541 let that be a vulnerability and where a 1302 01:49:10,541 --> 01:49:12,208 whole class of vulnerabilities have gone away. 1303 01:49:12,666 --> 01:49:14,833 So oftentimes today, when you're finding a vulnerability in 1304 01:49:14,833 --> 01:49:17,500 software and you find an exploit that allows you to take over a 1305 01:49:17,500 --> 01:49:20,166 system, for example, it's what it really is under the covers. 1306 01:49:20,166 --> 01:49:23,416 It's usually three, four, five, six chained exploits. 1307 01:49:23,458 --> 01:49:25,458 It's not any one bug that gets them in. 1308 01:49:25,875 --> 01:49:26,750 It's a set of bugs. 1309 01:49:26,750 --> 01:49:27,750 This bug gets me this far. 1310 01:49:27,750 --> 01:49:29,041 This bug gets me this far. 1311 01:49:29,041 --> 01:49:30,500 This bug lets me raise my permissions. 1312 01:49:30,958 --> 01:49:32,958 This bug lets me access this other software. 1313 01:49:33,333 --> 01:49:35,125 And by the time you're done, all of these things 1314 01:49:35,125 --> 01:49:37,125 together in order will get you this vulnerability. 1315 01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:42,000 This tool in this case found an exploit 1316 01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:43,958 chain that I think that was six links long. 1317 01:49:45,500 --> 01:49:47,958 It's it is that it is that good. 1318 01:49:47,958 --> 01:49:49,833 I'm here to tell you if this is the 1319 01:49:49,833 --> 01:49:51,458 real deal and we should be worried. 1320 01:49:51,500 --> 01:49:53,875 The next 12 months is going to be bumpy. 1321 01:49:54,375 --> 01:49:56,500 I mean, I don't want to. 1322 01:49:56,708 --> 01:49:57,833 I am not hyperbolic. 1323 01:49:57,833 --> 01:49:59,916 If you follow me at all, you know this is I am 1324 01:49:59,916 --> 01:50:01,791 not a chicken little skies falling kind of guy. 1325 01:50:02,625 --> 01:50:04,833 And I think there's also a lot of upside to like I think this 1326 01:50:04,833 --> 01:50:06,750 project glasswing for all the hype and everything. 1327 01:50:06,750 --> 01:50:08,333 I think it's still a good idea that we're doing it. 1328 01:50:08,875 --> 01:50:12,625 Once we build these tools into our software development process, we 1329 01:50:12,625 --> 01:50:14,500 are going to be shipping much, much cleaner 1330 01:50:14,500 --> 01:50:17,291 code with a lot fewer security vulnerabilities. 1331 01:50:17,583 --> 01:50:18,833 That day when it comes will be good. 1332 01:50:19,500 --> 01:50:24,291 Until then, we have a lot of software that exists already out there 1333 01:50:24,291 --> 01:50:26,916 that is not going to get patched that is at least not quickly. 1334 01:50:27,750 --> 01:50:29,208 And it's going to be vulnerable to these things. 1335 01:50:29,458 --> 01:50:33,166 So it's I'm not a prepper. 1336 01:50:33,833 --> 01:50:34,375 No, I'm not. 1337 01:50:34,666 --> 01:50:38,458 You know, but I'm telling you and I usually avoid hyperbole. 1338 01:50:38,458 --> 01:50:42,625 This is a case where I think the hype I think both things are true. 1339 01:50:42,625 --> 01:50:43,791 I think there is a lot of hype. 1340 01:50:43,791 --> 01:50:45,500 I also think these things really are that good. 1341 01:50:45,500 --> 01:50:49,875 And we need to I'm glad they're giving it access. 1342 01:50:50,500 --> 01:50:51,708 We're actually going to talk about the next story. 1343 01:50:51,958 --> 01:50:52,875 They screwed that up, too. 1344 01:50:53,375 --> 01:50:56,458 But I'm glad they give them access to ahead of time. 1345 01:50:56,458 --> 01:50:57,375 I think that's a good call. 1346 01:50:59,333 --> 01:51:02,750 Yeah, I think you kind of summed up what what there's there's a lot 1347 01:51:02,750 --> 01:51:04,625 of hype, but I think there's also a lot of substance, too. 1348 01:51:05,166 --> 01:51:09,250 So well, I guess real quick before we jump into that next story, 1349 01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:11,291 I'll give the audience a chance to disagree. 1350 01:51:11,291 --> 01:51:12,416 We'll try these polls out again. 1351 01:51:12,458 --> 01:51:15,416 Do you think I will change cybersecurity will be useful? 1352 01:51:16,041 --> 01:51:17,625 Let us know in the comments one, two or three. 1353 01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:20,875 But in the meantime, I'll let you 1354 01:51:20,875 --> 01:51:22,916 keep rolling and tell us more about this. 1355 01:51:23,958 --> 01:51:26,375 What what's the latest development in the mythos saga? 1356 01:51:26,916 --> 01:51:29,500 Well, OK, so this is this is one of 1357 01:51:29,500 --> 01:51:31,333 the downsides to doing what they did. 1358 01:51:32,041 --> 01:51:35,750 And so the one thing I think that they got wrong with this whole 1359 01:51:35,750 --> 01:51:39,416 project glass ring thing where they came out again, anthropic came 1360 01:51:39,416 --> 01:51:42,458 out and said, we have this tool that is so amazing and so good 1361 01:51:42,458 --> 01:51:45,833 called mythos that we can't just give it out to everybody yet. 1362 01:51:45,833 --> 01:51:48,875 We're going to we're going to let the the good 1363 01:51:48,875 --> 01:51:51,500 guys, the blue teams have access to this first. 1364 01:51:52,291 --> 01:51:53,250 And that was great. 1365 01:51:53,541 --> 01:51:55,875 But if I was in retrospect, I wouldn't 1366 01:51:55,875 --> 01:51:57,750 have told anybody that I was doing that. 1367 01:51:57,750 --> 01:51:59,541 I just would have done it and then 1368 01:51:59,541 --> 01:52:01,666 announced it when you could release it. 1369 01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:04,500 You know, you don't have to tell everybody you're going to do this. 1370 01:52:04,791 --> 01:52:08,666 And they went so far, by the way, just just to show you how the 1371 01:52:08,666 --> 01:52:10,041 hype works in this and the marketing work. 1372 01:52:10,041 --> 01:52:10,791 Somebody figured this out. 1373 01:52:10,791 --> 01:52:14,250 What they did was in the press release is they basically said, we 1374 01:52:14,250 --> 01:52:15,833 found we've already found all these bugs. 1375 01:52:16,416 --> 01:52:18,375 We can't tell you what they are yet because we don't want the bad 1376 01:52:18,375 --> 01:52:21,583 guys to exploit them yet because the people that the software that 1377 01:52:21,583 --> 01:52:23,500 has the bugs hasn't fixed them yet haven't released the patches. 1378 01:52:23,833 --> 01:52:24,833 So we're not going to tell you. 1379 01:52:24,833 --> 01:52:27,291 But we want we so badly want to prove to 1380 01:52:27,291 --> 01:52:30,208 you that we know that these are real bugs. 1381 01:52:30,250 --> 01:52:33,833 And what we did was we wrote the report with all the details that 1382 01:52:33,833 --> 01:52:36,166 explains and proves that we know what we're talking about. 1383 01:52:36,166 --> 01:52:36,958 And this was a real bug. 1384 01:52:37,958 --> 01:52:39,625 And then we took that report and we hashed it. 1385 01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:42,208 Now, if you don't know what a hash is, it's a cryptographic 1386 01:52:42,208 --> 01:52:45,500 function that basically takes any amount of input data and distills 1387 01:52:45,500 --> 01:52:48,833 it down into a fixed link number, essentially. 1388 01:52:49,208 --> 01:52:52,458 It's a big number to the point where if you took an entire book and 1389 01:52:52,458 --> 01:52:55,958 hashed it all the text from a book and hashed it, you get a number. 1390 01:52:56,250 --> 01:52:59,041 If you change a period in that book and hashed 1391 01:52:59,041 --> 01:53:00,875 it again, you would get a totally different hash. 1392 01:53:00,875 --> 01:53:02,333 It's like a fingerprint for the book. 1393 01:53:02,916 --> 01:53:05,666 So basically what they did, because they wanted to be able to prove 1394 01:53:05,666 --> 01:53:07,666 so badly that when this thing came out 1395 01:53:07,666 --> 01:53:09,500 like, see, we told you we knew this was here. 1396 01:53:09,833 --> 01:53:12,250 They took their bug reports and hashed them and released the hashes 1397 01:53:12,250 --> 01:53:15,541 so that when those bug reports eventually do come out, you can hash 1398 01:53:15,541 --> 01:53:17,250 them, get the same value and say, 1399 01:53:17,250 --> 01:53:18,791 oh, yeah, they really did have that. 1400 01:53:18,791 --> 01:53:19,833 They knew about that weeks ago. 1401 01:53:20,416 --> 01:53:23,791 So anyway, what what happened here is, of course, because they came 1402 01:53:23,791 --> 01:53:25,375 out and said this thing is super valuable. 1403 01:53:25,791 --> 01:53:27,500 Everyone's going to want this, but you can't have it yet. 1404 01:53:28,041 --> 01:53:29,000 Somebody figured out how to get it. 1405 01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:30,583 And the weak spot is always people. 1406 01:53:30,583 --> 01:53:34,458 So this article in TechCrunch, the summary basically is some some 1407 01:53:34,458 --> 01:53:37,083 group of people, I think they had like a 1408 01:53:37,083 --> 01:53:40,708 discord group where they they evaluate stuff. 1409 01:53:40,708 --> 01:53:45,791 They figured out by looking at the pattern of various clawed 1410 01:53:45,791 --> 01:53:47,625 releases, they kind of guessed where 1411 01:53:47,625 --> 01:53:49,500 the service was going to live on the Web. 1412 01:53:50,500 --> 01:53:51,000 Got it. 1413 01:53:51,375 --> 01:53:54,000 And then somehow through a third party, because there's always a 1414 01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:55,458 third party, there's always your partners. 1415 01:53:56,458 --> 01:53:57,291 Always what kills you. 1416 01:53:57,875 --> 01:53:59,000 They partnered with some people, some 1417 01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:01,875 partner had a had a vulnerability or something. 1418 01:54:01,875 --> 01:54:02,041 I don't know. 1419 01:54:02,041 --> 01:54:03,583 So I don't know if it was social engineering or what. 1420 01:54:03,583 --> 01:54:04,208 It's a little bit vague. 1421 01:54:04,750 --> 01:54:07,333 But somehow through a they've compromised a third party and got 1422 01:54:07,333 --> 01:54:09,000 access to the mythos tool ahead of time. 1423 01:54:09,333 --> 01:54:11,958 Now, we could only hope that they're not using it for for evil. 1424 01:54:12,458 --> 01:54:12,958 I don't know. 1425 01:54:12,958 --> 01:54:16,333 But but whatever you come out and say that these things are so 1426 01:54:16,333 --> 01:54:18,500 amazing, you're just paying a target on your back. 1427 01:54:18,916 --> 01:54:19,291 They should have. 1428 01:54:19,458 --> 01:54:20,375 They should have just waited. 1429 01:54:21,041 --> 01:54:22,541 I think that's all I got to say about that. 1430 01:54:27,375 --> 01:54:28,041 Nate, what do you think? 1431 01:54:28,041 --> 01:54:29,041 Any comments on that? 1432 01:54:30,500 --> 01:54:32,291 Sorry, I was having some slight technical difficulties. 1433 01:54:33,125 --> 01:54:33,333 Sorry. 1434 01:54:33,625 --> 01:54:34,416 All right. 1435 01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:38,041 Yeah, no, I I thought that was funny, too, that. 1436 01:54:39,916 --> 01:54:41,583 Yeah, it does seem kind of inevitable. 1437 01:54:41,833 --> 01:54:43,250 I feel like when I read this headline, I 1438 01:54:43,250 --> 01:54:44,833 was kind of like 50 50 on the one hand. 1439 01:54:44,833 --> 01:54:45,791 I was like, whoa, that's crazy. 1440 01:54:45,791 --> 01:54:46,666 And on the other hand, I'm like, yeah, 1441 01:54:46,666 --> 01:54:47,833 I guess that was kind of inevitable was. 1442 01:54:48,458 --> 01:54:50,458 But I don't know. 1443 01:54:50,458 --> 01:54:53,166 My my only real thought, to be honest, is that I'm surprised we 1444 01:54:53,166 --> 01:54:55,250 haven't seen any further developments yet, 1445 01:54:55,291 --> 01:54:58,333 because this was you see, this was on the 21st. 1446 01:54:58,333 --> 01:54:59,625 So that was like, what, Monday or Tuesday? 1447 01:55:00,291 --> 01:55:03,125 And I mean, it's a good thing. 1448 01:55:03,125 --> 01:55:04,000 It's a good thing, I guess. 1449 01:55:04,291 --> 01:55:05,041 And, you know, 1450 01:55:06,208 --> 01:55:07,041 the week is young. 1451 01:55:07,958 --> 01:55:10,208 Like we could still see stuff come out of this. 1452 01:55:10,208 --> 01:55:12,166 But it's like, OK, they say that they've got 1453 01:55:12,166 --> 01:55:15,291 access now, but what are they doing with it? 1454 01:55:15,291 --> 01:55:16,541 And so I guess I'm curious. 1455 01:55:17,875 --> 01:55:20,333 Because, yeah, we really don't know much, or at least publicly they 1456 01:55:20,333 --> 01:55:22,000 haven't said much about who's behind this. 1457 01:55:22,291 --> 01:55:25,083 So yeah, this this this smacks to me of somebody like almost like, 1458 01:55:25,750 --> 01:55:28,458 hacker interest group that just wanted to see if they could. 1459 01:55:29,083 --> 01:55:31,166 And they and they poked around and figured out they could. 1460 01:55:31,166 --> 01:55:31,666 And they did it. 1461 01:55:31,958 --> 01:55:34,083 A lot of, you know, a lot of hackers is just for the laws, as we 1462 01:55:34,083 --> 01:55:35,583 say, you know, it's just to say that we 1463 01:55:35,583 --> 01:55:37,166 could do it, maybe get a little street cred. 1464 01:55:37,625 --> 01:55:39,583 But if they can do it, what that really 1465 01:55:39,583 --> 01:55:40,875 means is someone else could do it, too. 1466 01:55:40,875 --> 01:55:44,458 And if I were North Korea or Russia or China or Iran or any one of 1467 01:55:44,458 --> 01:55:46,958 the other state sponsored actors, I'd be trying this, too. 1468 01:55:46,958 --> 01:55:47,791 And if they could, if these guys 1469 01:55:47,791 --> 01:55:49,083 could be in, the chances are pretty good. 1470 01:55:49,083 --> 01:55:49,791 Someone else can, too. 1471 01:55:50,125 --> 01:55:52,791 I if again, I know we talk about security through security. 1472 01:55:53,166 --> 01:55:55,583 And it's not a great thing, but it's also not a bad thing. 1473 01:55:55,583 --> 01:55:57,875 I entropic should have just sat on this. 1474 01:55:57,875 --> 01:56:01,000 They should they shouldn't have gone for all the marketing hype 1475 01:56:01,000 --> 01:56:03,375 with the we're sitting on something we can't tell you about. 1476 01:56:03,750 --> 01:56:06,416 And it's it's like I've got a secret, but I can't tell you. 1477 01:56:06,416 --> 01:56:06,833 Right. 1478 01:56:06,833 --> 01:56:09,125 I mean, we all know as human beings that never works out. 1479 01:56:10,958 --> 01:56:11,375 That's funny. 1480 01:56:11,375 --> 01:56:12,500 That's a really good comparison. 1481 01:56:12,791 --> 01:56:14,916 Yeah, that's yeah. 1482 01:56:14,916 --> 01:56:19,916 I mean, that reminds me of the the 80s and 90s hackers, like what 1483 01:56:19,916 --> 01:56:21,250 it was all about, just because you could. 1484 01:56:21,333 --> 01:56:23,125 And there was no real incentive behind it. 1485 01:56:23,333 --> 01:56:25,583 But yeah, yeah, I certainly hope that's it. 1486 01:56:25,583 --> 01:56:28,958 And I certainly hope we're not about to see a string of like all 1487 01:56:28,958 --> 01:56:31,208 these companies were hacked in a way where clearly they must have 1488 01:56:31,208 --> 01:56:32,625 been abusing me, those because there's nowhere 1489 01:56:32,625 --> 01:56:34,333 else that you could have done it or something. 1490 01:56:34,583 --> 01:56:36,791 But yeah, interesting stuff. 1491 01:56:38,958 --> 01:56:40,708 I think that's all I got. 1492 01:56:40,708 --> 01:56:43,458 And I feel like we've covered that pretty well. 1493 01:56:44,375 --> 01:56:44,583 Yeah, 1494 01:56:46,041 --> 01:56:48,083 Jonah's, I think, trying to give you a real 1495 01:56:48,083 --> 01:56:50,166 quick plug again, if you guys are enjoying Carrie, 1496 01:56:51,291 --> 01:56:54,375 which somebody said that in the signal trap, by the way, they said 1497 01:56:54,375 --> 01:56:55,500 they're really enjoying you on the show. 1498 01:56:55,916 --> 01:56:57,416 So fireballs, don't stop dragons. 1499 01:56:57,625 --> 01:56:58,500 FDSD dot me. 1500 01:56:58,833 --> 01:56:59,625 Definitely check them out. 1501 01:57:00,583 --> 01:57:02,958 And we'll talk about that a little bit more in just a moment. 1502 01:57:03,083 --> 01:57:07,958 But first, we're going to get into a fun story about Meta. 1503 01:57:08,166 --> 01:57:09,416 We all love to jump on. 1504 01:57:09,416 --> 01:57:13,208 Oh, yes, that is one of my favorite companies to pick on. 1505 01:57:14,583 --> 01:57:16,250 So Meta has started keylogging their 1506 01:57:16,250 --> 01:57:19,541 employees, allegedly to train A.I. data. 1507 01:57:20,333 --> 01:57:22,708 I'll be honest, the story is pretty 1508 01:57:22,708 --> 01:57:24,833 straightforward, but there's still some good takeaways here. 1509 01:57:25,208 --> 01:57:27,291 So let's start with the facts of the story. 1510 01:57:28,041 --> 01:57:30,583 Meta is installing new tracking software on employers' computers 1511 01:57:30,583 --> 01:57:33,083 that will measure mouse movements, clicks and keystrokes for 1512 01:57:33,083 --> 01:57:34,833 training its artificial intelligence models. 1513 01:57:35,500 --> 01:57:38,666 This is called the Model Capability Initiative, and it will run on 1514 01:57:38,666 --> 01:57:41,208 work related apps and websites and will also take occasional 1515 01:57:41,208 --> 01:57:43,125 screenshots of the employee screens. 1516 01:57:43,791 --> 01:57:45,625 And they say that the goal is they're trying 1517 01:57:45,625 --> 01:57:49,250 to improve areas where agentic A.I. struggles. 1518 01:57:49,500 --> 01:57:51,041 Well, they said the company's A.I. models. 1519 01:57:51,041 --> 01:57:53,875 I'm assuming this is an across the board thing or maybe their A.I. 1520 01:57:53,875 --> 01:57:55,625 really just sucks that much compared to everybody else. 1521 01:57:55,625 --> 01:57:55,958 I don't know. 1522 01:57:56,250 --> 01:57:58,000 I haven't used any A.I. agents. 1523 01:57:58,000 --> 01:57:58,500 I wouldn't know. 1524 01:57:59,125 --> 01:58:00,500 I don't trust them enough. 1525 01:58:01,166 --> 01:58:02,666 I don't mind telling me click. 1526 01:58:03,083 --> 01:58:05,041 I just it's a control freak thing. 1527 01:58:05,041 --> 01:58:07,958 I don't mind telling me like, hey, click on this article because 1528 01:58:07,958 --> 01:58:09,416 that's got the news you're looking for. 1529 01:58:09,416 --> 01:58:11,375 I do mind when it's like, let me go buy your plane tickets. 1530 01:58:11,375 --> 01:58:12,791 Like, no, don't. 1531 01:58:13,625 --> 01:58:16,291 But anyways, they say that they're specifically looking to improve 1532 01:58:16,291 --> 01:58:18,541 things like like when you have to choose from 1533 01:58:18,541 --> 01:58:21,041 a dropdown menu or you use keyboard shortcuts. 1534 01:58:21,875 --> 01:58:23,458 Apparently, that's something where A.I. still struggles. 1535 01:58:25,708 --> 01:58:27,000 They also said that. 1536 01:58:28,833 --> 01:58:30,166 Where did it go here? 1537 01:58:32,041 --> 01:58:33,041 Oh, yeah, here it is. 1538 01:58:33,041 --> 01:58:35,208 They said that the MCI would not be used for performance 1539 01:58:35,208 --> 01:58:38,166 assessments or any other purpose besides model training and the 1540 01:58:38,166 --> 01:58:40,375 safeguards were in place to protect, quote unquote, sensitive 1541 01:58:40,375 --> 01:58:42,208 content without elaborating on 1542 01:58:42,208 --> 01:58:43,666 which types of data would be excluded. 1543 01:58:43,958 --> 01:58:44,166 So. 1544 01:58:45,375 --> 01:58:48,791 I mean, me again, I hate meta. 1545 01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:50,250 I love to take shots at them. 1546 01:58:50,500 --> 01:58:51,958 So my first question is, it's not going 1547 01:58:51,958 --> 01:58:53,875 to be used for performance stuff for now. 1548 01:58:54,791 --> 01:58:57,708 And like, how are they going to if it's taking screenshots like, 1549 01:58:57,708 --> 01:58:59,791 OK, first of all, and I think this is probably where we're going to 1550 01:58:59,791 --> 01:59:02,666 start getting into the analysis portion, but like you shouldn't be 1551 01:59:02,666 --> 01:59:04,250 doing anything personal or work computer. 1552 01:59:04,708 --> 01:59:09,333 But hypothetically, let's say someone's opened like an email or 1553 01:59:09,333 --> 01:59:11,833 something like something that they need to do real quick. 1554 01:59:11,833 --> 01:59:12,833 I mean, we've all had those moments, 1555 01:59:12,833 --> 01:59:14,916 right, where it's like, I need to do this thing. 1556 01:59:14,916 --> 01:59:15,791 It'll take five minutes. 1557 01:59:15,791 --> 01:59:16,208 I'm at work. 1558 01:59:16,208 --> 01:59:17,875 Let me step outside and make this phone call or whatever. 1559 01:59:18,333 --> 01:59:20,500 So what happens when they open their email and that's the moment 1560 01:59:20,500 --> 01:59:21,833 that it decides to take a screenshot, 1561 01:59:22,875 --> 01:59:24,708 there is not a world in which you can 1562 01:59:24,708 --> 01:59:26,291 convince me that that is going to throw that away. 1563 01:59:26,750 --> 01:59:28,833 Like, yeah, I'm sure they'll say they will. 1564 01:59:29,208 --> 01:59:30,416 I don't believe it for a second. 1565 01:59:31,083 --> 01:59:31,375 Yeah, 1566 01:59:32,625 --> 01:59:34,208 Lucas says I want them to train their replacement. 1567 01:59:34,458 --> 01:59:34,666 They may. 1568 01:59:35,458 --> 01:59:36,708 Maybe you're not wrong. 1569 01:59:37,250 --> 01:59:37,583 Yeah. 1570 01:59:38,500 --> 01:59:39,625 So it's one. 1571 01:59:39,625 --> 01:59:41,791 So, OK, so one of the things I got from the article was that it 1572 01:59:41,791 --> 01:59:43,750 seemed like what they were really trying to do is, again, toward 1573 01:59:43,750 --> 01:59:46,416 this agentic I was talking about, they want to understand how 1574 01:59:46,416 --> 01:59:49,791 humans interact with this stuff so they can better implement their 1575 01:59:49,791 --> 01:59:52,083 agentic guy, which will take over and do these things for you. 1576 01:59:52,916 --> 01:59:54,541 So that's one of the one of the reasons 1577 01:59:54,541 --> 01:59:56,750 supposedly why they're why they're doing this. 1578 01:59:57,750 --> 01:59:59,416 And so let me just take a quick 1579 01:59:59,416 --> 02:00:00,875 segue to say you're absolutely right. 1580 02:00:00,875 --> 02:00:02,250 In my opinion, you're absolutely right. 1581 02:00:02,250 --> 02:00:03,875 Do not use anything agentic at this point. 1582 02:00:04,166 --> 02:00:05,000 I think it's really cool. 1583 02:00:05,375 --> 02:00:06,666 I love sci fi. 1584 02:00:06,666 --> 02:00:08,750 I can't wait for the day when this stuff is 1585 02:00:08,750 --> 02:00:12,708 trustworthy and I can tell my computer do the stuff. 1586 02:00:13,083 --> 02:00:16,291 It can do great stuff like my my doctor, 1587 02:00:16,291 --> 02:00:18,166 of all people, was telling me, oh, yeah. 1588 02:00:18,166 --> 02:00:20,375 So I started I installed called Kowork 1589 02:00:20,375 --> 02:00:22,916 and just told it to clean up my Mac for me. 1590 02:00:23,125 --> 02:00:25,333 And it went and found all these files and get rid of stuff for me 1591 02:00:25,333 --> 02:00:27,500 and tweaked all my settings and it's so much better now. 1592 02:00:27,500 --> 02:00:29,958 I'm like, oh, my God, like I can't trust 1593 02:00:29,958 --> 02:00:31,791 these things yet to do those things on my behalf. 1594 02:00:31,791 --> 02:00:33,291 I someday maybe I'd love that. 1595 02:00:33,291 --> 02:00:34,833 But no, we are not there. 1596 02:00:35,500 --> 02:00:35,958 We are already. 1597 02:00:36,625 --> 02:00:40,041 I bet you that story was so close to ending 1598 02:00:40,041 --> 02:00:42,708 with like and then it deleted all my my kids photo. 1599 02:00:43,375 --> 02:00:43,708 Right. 1600 02:00:44,208 --> 02:00:44,458 Right. 1601 02:00:45,000 --> 02:00:45,333 Yeah. 1602 02:00:45,750 --> 02:00:48,208 And so we're building some of the things we need to do. 1603 02:00:48,208 --> 02:00:49,125 And we're already starting to do them. 1604 02:00:49,125 --> 02:00:50,625 There's this thing called MCP, which I 1605 02:00:50,625 --> 02:00:52,250 think is what is model control protocol. 1606 02:00:52,500 --> 02:00:54,541 We're starting to build in frameworks into 1607 02:00:54,541 --> 02:00:56,625 our operating systems that allow these things. 1608 02:00:57,125 --> 02:00:57,208 So 1609 02:00:58,875 --> 02:01:01,333 you will they're already building in hooks, basically, software 1610 02:01:01,333 --> 02:01:02,958 hooks into our applications that 1611 02:01:02,958 --> 02:01:05,125 are operating systems for agentic AI. 1612 02:01:05,166 --> 02:01:06,791 So it'll be easier for these guys to 1613 02:01:06,791 --> 02:01:09,541 basically script and automate things on your computer. 1614 02:01:10,458 --> 02:01:12,583 So and that's good in the sense of it's coming from the operating 1615 02:01:12,583 --> 02:01:15,625 system vendor, Apple, Google, Microsoft. 1616 02:01:16,208 --> 02:01:18,041 Hopefully they're going to build in some guardrails. 1617 02:01:18,041 --> 02:01:18,958 And hopefully they're going to set up 1618 02:01:18,958 --> 02:01:20,833 types of permissions that you could give. 1619 02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:23,041 It's going to be like apps all over again, where you have to go 1620 02:01:23,041 --> 02:01:24,666 through and say, yes, you can have access to my microphone. 1621 02:01:25,166 --> 02:01:28,666 No, you can't look at my this folder that has my taxes in it. 1622 02:01:29,000 --> 02:01:29,750 You know, you're going to have to go. 1623 02:01:29,750 --> 02:01:30,416 You're going to have to go through that. 1624 02:01:30,416 --> 02:01:32,500 But right now it's the total Wild West, 1625 02:01:32,500 --> 02:01:35,291 you know, Claude, was it Claude Baut or Molt? 1626 02:01:35,625 --> 02:01:37,791 Originally, what was the what was originally called? 1627 02:01:37,791 --> 02:01:38,125 Open Claw. 1628 02:01:39,208 --> 02:01:40,125 It's Open Claw now. 1629 02:01:40,416 --> 02:01:41,541 I think originally it was Claude 1630 02:01:41,541 --> 02:01:43,458 Baut and then it became like Molt Baut. 1631 02:01:44,375 --> 02:01:45,250 And now it's Open Claw. 1632 02:01:45,708 --> 02:01:47,333 I can't remember exactly either. 1633 02:01:47,916 --> 02:01:50,666 And so so when I read that, first of all, 1634 02:01:50,666 --> 02:01:52,916 like that is that again, I'm an engineer. 1635 02:01:52,916 --> 02:01:54,708 I love to automate things like that's totally cool. 1636 02:01:54,708 --> 02:01:55,791 But I would never do that. 1637 02:01:56,166 --> 02:01:57,416 I would never trust this thing. 1638 02:01:57,416 --> 02:01:58,666 So I was like, OK, how do I do this? 1639 02:01:58,666 --> 02:02:02,500 So I'm actually building my own server to do this on, because I 1640 02:02:02,500 --> 02:02:04,083 first of all, I've got to sandbox this. 1641 02:02:04,583 --> 02:02:06,666 And so I've got to keep this totally separate from I would never 1642 02:02:06,666 --> 02:02:07,666 run these things directly on my 1643 02:02:07,666 --> 02:02:09,208 machine because then they run as me. 1644 02:02:09,500 --> 02:02:10,541 They could do anything I can do. 1645 02:02:10,791 --> 02:02:11,708 And in most cases, that means 1646 02:02:11,708 --> 02:02:13,333 you're admin, so they could do anything. 1647 02:02:14,041 --> 02:02:16,416 No way am I going to do that on any computer I care about. 1648 02:02:16,416 --> 02:02:17,916 But so I bought a dedicated computer for 1649 02:02:17,916 --> 02:02:20,416 this and I'm running local models only. 1650 02:02:20,625 --> 02:02:23,125 It's using Olama, if anybody's familiar with that. 1651 02:02:23,125 --> 02:02:23,875 So it's all local. 1652 02:02:23,875 --> 02:02:25,333 There's nothing cloud based on there. 1653 02:02:25,666 --> 02:02:27,583 And I want to try to get this thing to do this kind of things. 1654 02:02:27,583 --> 02:02:29,333 But it's going to be more like an assistant, 1655 02:02:29,333 --> 02:02:30,458 like it's going to have their own personality. 1656 02:02:30,833 --> 02:02:32,000 Like I've already got this box set up. 1657 02:02:32,041 --> 02:02:34,625 It's OK, this is going to sound horrible. 1658 02:02:35,041 --> 02:02:36,958 I totally understand that AI is not real. 1659 02:02:37,875 --> 02:02:38,916 Do not worry about me. 1660 02:02:39,125 --> 02:02:42,291 But I called it Sam and I called it Sam because that's the name of 1661 02:02:42,291 --> 02:02:44,625 the AI and her, which is a movie. 1662 02:02:44,625 --> 02:02:45,750 If you've not seen, you need to watch. 1663 02:02:45,750 --> 02:02:46,958 It's very relevant now. 1664 02:02:46,958 --> 02:02:48,416 That's been on my list for like a year. 1665 02:02:48,750 --> 02:02:48,958 Oh, yeah. 1666 02:02:48,958 --> 02:02:49,458 Go watch it. 1667 02:02:49,458 --> 02:02:50,916 It's in fact, I need to watch it again. 1668 02:02:52,041 --> 02:02:53,375 It's a weird love story with AI. 1669 02:02:53,375 --> 02:02:54,416 I'm not spoiling too much. 1670 02:02:55,208 --> 02:02:56,916 But it's it's really talk. 1671 02:02:56,916 --> 02:02:58,000 It speaks a lot to what we're 1672 02:02:58,000 --> 02:02:59,958 doing now with those agentic AI stuff. 1673 02:02:59,958 --> 02:03:00,833 So I called it Sam. 1674 02:03:02,125 --> 02:03:03,666 Anyway, Sam's going to have a memory. 1675 02:03:03,666 --> 02:03:05,416 Sam's going to have a eye, but it's all going to be local. 1676 02:03:06,416 --> 02:03:07,500 And Sam is different from me. 1677 02:03:07,500 --> 02:03:08,333 Sam is not me. 1678 02:03:08,333 --> 02:03:10,041 Sam is not sharing my accounts. 1679 02:03:10,041 --> 02:03:12,375 This is the kind of thing where Sam's got her own proton account. 1680 02:03:12,583 --> 02:03:13,750 Sam's got her own signal account. 1681 02:03:13,750 --> 02:03:14,625 Sam's got her own phone number. 1682 02:03:15,166 --> 02:03:16,916 And I and we will communicate my signal. 1683 02:03:16,916 --> 02:03:18,416 She will only ever respond to me 1684 02:03:19,708 --> 02:03:22,333 and she will do automated stuff, but 1685 02:03:22,333 --> 02:03:23,750 she's going to do it as her, not me. 1686 02:03:23,750 --> 02:03:25,708 And with whatever sharing kind of 1687 02:03:25,708 --> 02:03:27,250 permissions, I'm able to set up in like 1688 02:03:28,416 --> 02:03:30,250 proton or wherever we're going to share stuff. 1689 02:03:30,708 --> 02:03:33,666 So that that's that's how I'm attacking this. 1690 02:03:33,666 --> 02:03:35,166 But eventually we will get to the point, I 1691 02:03:35,166 --> 02:03:36,208 think, where these things will be trustworthy. 1692 02:03:36,500 --> 02:03:37,416 We are not there yet. 1693 02:03:41,041 --> 02:03:41,916 Yeah, for sure. 1694 02:03:42,875 --> 02:03:43,166 I don't know. 1695 02:03:43,166 --> 02:03:44,750 For me, I think it's just a control freak thing. 1696 02:03:45,041 --> 02:03:45,708 I don't you like. 1697 02:03:46,750 --> 02:03:47,250 I don't know. 1698 02:03:47,250 --> 02:03:49,083 I've never been in a job where I've had an assistant. 1699 02:03:49,541 --> 02:03:49,916 I've never. 1700 02:03:51,500 --> 02:03:52,291 You know, I've always been. 1701 02:03:52,583 --> 02:03:54,916 My mom raised me to be self-reliant and not 1702 02:03:54,916 --> 02:03:56,750 have to rely on like anyone to take care of me. 1703 02:03:56,750 --> 02:03:59,041 So for me, I think I'm just too much of a control freak to like. 1704 02:03:59,875 --> 02:04:02,791 And also, like I honestly, I do ask myself a lot. 1705 02:04:02,791 --> 02:04:07,500 I'm like, is there anything where I can offload this to AI and I'll 1706 02:04:07,500 --> 02:04:10,458 be, you know, like I'm being stubborn, I'm being a lot, even though 1707 02:04:10,458 --> 02:04:11,791 I know that phrase gets used wrong, 1708 02:04:11,791 --> 02:04:13,875 but, you know, I ask myself that a lot. 1709 02:04:13,875 --> 02:04:15,833 And I just I never seem to run into anything. 1710 02:04:15,833 --> 02:04:20,041 It's like I've tried having and I know this isn't a genteck AI, but 1711 02:04:20,041 --> 02:04:22,250 I've tried having like AI write blog posts before. 1712 02:04:22,541 --> 02:04:23,791 And I won't lie, it's really good. 1713 02:04:23,791 --> 02:04:24,500 Like I'm not going to lie. 1714 02:04:24,500 --> 02:04:27,083 I did this with with my interview or my 1715 02:04:27,083 --> 02:04:29,416 review of Cindy Cohen's book just for fun. 1716 02:04:29,416 --> 02:04:33,291 I'm like, OK, here's a link to my blog post, like my entire old 1717 02:04:33,291 --> 02:04:35,791 blog that I've been writing since like 2018 on write as. 1718 02:04:35,958 --> 02:04:37,250 I'm like, here's a link to that for tone. 1719 02:04:38,291 --> 02:04:39,500 I want a review of this book. 1720 02:04:39,500 --> 02:04:40,541 Here were my thoughts about it. 1721 02:04:40,916 --> 02:04:41,791 And it was really good. 1722 02:04:42,041 --> 02:04:42,875 I'm not going to lie. 1723 02:04:42,875 --> 02:04:44,458 But at the same time, I looked at it and I'm like. 1724 02:04:45,625 --> 02:04:47,041 But I just I'm not comfortable 1725 02:04:47,041 --> 02:04:48,791 publishing that like I didn't write that. 1726 02:04:49,666 --> 02:04:51,875 And there were definitely like a couple sentences that I was like, 1727 02:04:51,875 --> 02:04:53,541 OK, actually, I really like the way it put that 1728 02:04:53,541 --> 02:04:55,375 and so I'm going to use that specific sentence. 1729 02:04:55,916 --> 02:04:58,166 But there were like two sentences out of the whole thing. 1730 02:04:58,333 --> 02:04:59,291 I just I don't know. 1731 02:04:59,375 --> 02:05:00,083 I'm the same way. 1732 02:05:00,083 --> 02:05:01,916 I think it's I think it's a pick and choose kind of thing. 1733 02:05:01,916 --> 02:05:03,958 So think of it like I'm the same way I would love. 1734 02:05:03,958 --> 02:05:05,458 This is something I'm working on as well. 1735 02:05:05,458 --> 02:05:07,291 It's called RAG and I forget what RAG stands for. 1736 02:05:07,291 --> 02:05:08,125 It's it's an acronym. 1737 02:05:08,375 --> 02:05:09,583 But basically you feed it a whole bunch 1738 02:05:09,583 --> 02:05:11,666 of stuff and I basically want to give it. 1739 02:05:11,666 --> 02:05:12,791 Here's here's my book. 1740 02:05:13,375 --> 02:05:14,833 Here's my all my blog posts. 1741 02:05:15,041 --> 02:05:17,000 Here's the transcripts from my podcast. 1742 02:05:17,500 --> 02:05:20,166 But I want to know things like have I talked about this before? 1743 02:05:20,166 --> 02:05:21,458 When was the last time I talked about it? 1744 02:05:21,458 --> 02:05:22,125 Who did I talk about? 1745 02:05:22,125 --> 02:05:23,666 Did I have a guest where they talked about this? 1746 02:05:24,083 --> 02:05:25,666 What were the points that we brought up then? 1747 02:05:26,625 --> 02:05:28,041 Go back and look at my podcast that I 1748 02:05:28,041 --> 02:05:29,250 ever say something like, you know what? 1749 02:05:29,250 --> 02:05:31,208 If this if this changes, I'll get back to you. 1750 02:05:31,208 --> 02:05:32,416 And I don't want to forget that. 1751 02:05:32,416 --> 02:05:34,166 So go back and help me find to do lists 1752 02:05:34,166 --> 02:05:36,083 from things where I said, oh, that's good. 1753 02:05:36,083 --> 02:05:37,500 I told my audience I'd get back to you 1754 02:05:37,500 --> 02:05:38,708 on this and I want to make sure I do that. 1755 02:05:39,833 --> 02:05:40,916 But yeah, I've done the same thing. 1756 02:05:41,083 --> 02:05:43,666 I I would I don't think I would ever let it write an article for 1757 02:05:43,666 --> 02:05:46,208 me, but I have had it's like, OK, give me some bullet points. 1758 02:05:46,208 --> 02:05:46,750 Give me some ideas. 1759 02:05:47,041 --> 02:05:48,083 Here's what I'm looking for. 1760 02:05:48,083 --> 02:05:49,916 And I've done some brainstorming with it. 1761 02:05:50,208 --> 02:05:51,958 And I did for fun, kind of like you. 1762 02:05:51,958 --> 02:05:53,583 Like I would I'm too OCD about it. 1763 02:05:53,583 --> 02:05:54,458 I would never let them. 1764 02:05:55,416 --> 02:05:56,666 I've got to write in my own voice. 1765 02:05:56,666 --> 02:05:57,291 It's me. 1766 02:05:58,208 --> 02:06:00,000 And I like my tone and the way I do things 1767 02:06:00,000 --> 02:06:01,750 that I wouldn't trust something else to mimic me. 1768 02:06:02,583 --> 02:06:04,458 But I did, you know, I did say, OK, give it a shot. 1769 02:06:05,125 --> 02:06:07,625 Take this and just write this article as if you were me and see it. 1770 02:06:08,208 --> 02:06:08,625 It wasn't me. 1771 02:06:08,625 --> 02:06:09,250 It was a good death. 1772 02:06:09,666 --> 02:06:11,416 It probably will be Sunday, but it's not there yet. 1773 02:06:11,416 --> 02:06:12,333 I probably still wouldn't do it. 1774 02:06:12,333 --> 02:06:12,833 I'm with you. 1775 02:06:12,833 --> 02:06:14,833 When it comes to things like that, content creation, things that 1776 02:06:14,833 --> 02:06:16,500 I'm creating, it's got to be for me. 1777 02:06:16,958 --> 02:06:18,791 But there are so many things that I got on me. 1778 02:06:18,791 --> 02:06:20,500 Here's here's another one for you that I'm looking at doing. 1779 02:06:20,708 --> 02:06:22,583 And I've already kind of started putting some groundwork. 1780 02:06:23,208 --> 02:06:24,583 I hate most news aggregators. 1781 02:06:25,000 --> 02:06:27,500 I have an RSS feed where I can actually just, you know, I can get 1782 02:06:27,500 --> 02:06:30,541 the raw articles into a nice set of folders or whatever. 1783 02:06:31,083 --> 02:06:34,083 But what I really want is I want to write my own news aggregator 1784 02:06:34,083 --> 02:06:37,250 that goes and finds these things for me and then highlights the 1785 02:06:37,250 --> 02:06:41,166 ones based on my criteria that are interesting and then maybe even 1786 02:06:41,166 --> 02:06:42,666 notifies me like, hey, this is hot. 1787 02:06:42,666 --> 02:06:43,416 This is happening right now. 1788 02:06:43,416 --> 02:06:44,375 You might want to go check this out. 1789 02:06:44,833 --> 02:06:47,125 I want to and I want it to be tailored to me and I don't want ads 1790 02:06:47,125 --> 02:06:49,166 and I don't want tracking and I don't want data mining. 1791 02:06:50,833 --> 02:06:54,416 But in summarize, give me give me three bullets and they can be a 1792 02:06:54,416 --> 02:06:56,000 slightly executive summary version. 1793 02:06:56,000 --> 02:06:57,708 And then if I want to go on, I'll read the whole thing. 1794 02:06:58,250 --> 02:07:01,166 I would love to have something like that because most all OK, every 1795 02:07:01,166 --> 02:07:03,125 news thing I've used lately just sucks. 1796 02:07:03,125 --> 02:07:03,750 It's full of ads. 1797 02:07:03,750 --> 02:07:05,375 It's full of autoplay videos. 1798 02:07:05,583 --> 02:07:07,083 And I just can't stand it. 1799 02:07:07,083 --> 02:07:08,166 I'm going to build my own. 1800 02:07:08,666 --> 02:07:09,916 And so let me make another point. 1801 02:07:09,916 --> 02:07:10,500 That's where we are. 1802 02:07:10,750 --> 02:07:12,750 Another thing I'll make another prediction for you. 1803 02:07:13,250 --> 02:07:15,041 And Chris Belize would not like it because 1804 02:07:16,750 --> 02:07:19,083 and that is that we are in the age now of custom apps. 1805 02:07:19,333 --> 02:07:20,291 We're already there. 1806 02:07:20,291 --> 02:07:21,041 I'm already doing it. 1807 02:07:21,041 --> 02:07:22,708 And the rest of us are going to be doing it very soon. 1808 02:07:23,041 --> 02:07:25,916 This is going to put some software people out of business, certain 1809 02:07:25,916 --> 02:07:28,166 a lot of these subscription based ones where you're going to say 1810 02:07:28,166 --> 02:07:31,166 that I just read this article recently and I think I might talk 1811 02:07:31,166 --> 02:07:32,541 about this on my next podcast where this 1812 02:07:32,541 --> 02:07:34,916 guy, no, I actually did my last podcast. 1813 02:07:35,291 --> 02:07:36,541 He wrote his own word processor 1814 02:07:36,541 --> 02:07:38,166 because he was so sick of all the other ones. 1815 02:07:38,166 --> 02:07:39,500 He needs a certain set of features. 1816 02:07:39,500 --> 02:07:40,458 I don't need 100 features. 1817 02:07:40,458 --> 02:07:41,000 I need five. 1818 02:07:41,500 --> 02:07:42,916 And then I need of the five that 1819 02:07:42,916 --> 02:07:45,083 Microsoft Word has that I really do use. 1820 02:07:45,083 --> 02:07:46,625 I need two more that it doesn't have. 1821 02:07:46,875 --> 02:07:48,958 Like he likes Pomodoro time. 1822 02:07:49,166 --> 02:07:50,125 Pomodoro timers. 1823 02:07:50,833 --> 02:07:52,333 He's into that getting things done 1824 02:07:52,333 --> 02:07:55,291 system, which I've heard of never used. 1825 02:07:55,500 --> 02:07:57,125 He built that into his own word processor. 1826 02:07:57,375 --> 02:07:59,041 He just had, he just vibe coded the whole thing. 1827 02:07:59,291 --> 02:08:02,500 And so now he has a custom word processor that lets him, it has 1828 02:08:02,500 --> 02:08:04,416 folders where you can bring in source material. 1829 02:08:04,416 --> 02:08:06,083 Like here's a PDF I want to reference. 1830 02:08:06,083 --> 02:08:07,166 Here's a link I want to reference. 1831 02:08:07,166 --> 02:08:08,541 And now I want to write an article about this. 1832 02:08:08,541 --> 02:08:09,583 Help synthesize that for me. 1833 02:08:09,791 --> 02:08:10,833 He wrote a custom word processor. 1834 02:08:11,250 --> 02:08:13,000 This is what we're all going to be doing soon. 1835 02:08:13,750 --> 02:08:15,416 We're just going to be writing our own apps. 1836 02:08:16,416 --> 02:08:16,750 It's amazing. 1837 02:08:18,083 --> 02:08:20,000 I've heard other people make those predictions too. 1838 02:08:21,083 --> 02:08:21,958 Yeah, I don't know. 1839 02:08:21,958 --> 02:08:24,500 And I mean, I guess as far as vibe coding goes, I know for the 1840 02:08:24,500 --> 02:08:25,791 simple stuff, it's probably fine. 1841 02:08:25,791 --> 02:08:28,083 Like maybe a note taking app that does this and looks like this. 1842 02:08:28,083 --> 02:08:31,333 It's I think right now, once they, the 1843 02:08:31,333 --> 02:08:33,041 complexity is where it's going to go wrong, right? 1844 02:08:33,041 --> 02:08:33,916 Like somebody's going to be like, 1845 02:08:33,916 --> 02:08:36,208 "Oh, but I wanted to do 500 things." 1846 02:08:36,208 --> 02:08:37,958 And then it's like the next thing you know, your social security 1847 02:08:37,958 --> 02:08:39,000 numbers on the front page of Google. 1848 02:08:39,375 --> 02:08:41,958 But you know, yeah. 1849 02:08:41,958 --> 02:08:44,625 I will say not to like keep getting on the topic, but I will say 1850 02:08:44,625 --> 02:08:47,208 the, the Cindy Cohen, the article that I had 1851 02:08:47,208 --> 02:08:50,458 it write, the AI write was actually pretty good. 1852 02:08:50,458 --> 02:08:52,916 And I'll be honest, if I published it, I think most people probably 1853 02:08:52,916 --> 02:08:55,583 would have not noticed maybe, but it's 1854 02:08:55,583 --> 02:08:57,083 still just, it just doesn't feel right. 1855 02:08:57,333 --> 02:08:59,166 Like it's, like you said, it's not me. 1856 02:09:00,083 --> 02:09:05,625 So, and then real quick, I, I was just going to say, I'd feel bad 1857 02:09:05,625 --> 02:09:09,208 if we didn't touch on this, the whole like the bossware aspect of 1858 02:09:09,208 --> 02:09:12,083 this meta story is, you know, just to kind of remind, I don't know 1859 02:09:12,083 --> 02:09:16,041 about other countries, but here in America, like I don't think, I 1860 02:09:16,041 --> 02:09:17,291 mean, it does specifically say that 1861 02:09:17,291 --> 02:09:19,000 this probably would not fly in Europe. 1862 02:09:19,375 --> 02:09:21,166 The Reuters article here did say that. 1863 02:09:21,666 --> 02:09:23,416 But I know in America, like they can't make 1864 02:09:23,416 --> 02:09:24,916 you download anything on a personal device. 1865 02:09:25,541 --> 02:09:28,333 I think on company computers, they technically can, which is also 1866 02:09:28,333 --> 02:09:31,500 why again, you know, we made a point of like, if you can try not to 1867 02:09:31,500 --> 02:09:32,791 do anything on company computers. 1868 02:09:32,791 --> 02:09:34,875 I know everybody's in a different situation. 1869 02:09:35,166 --> 02:09:38,125 Some people are, they're in a situation 1870 02:09:38,125 --> 02:09:39,916 where like, that's the only computer they have. 1871 02:09:40,125 --> 02:09:41,000 And that's really unfortunate. 1872 02:09:41,250 --> 02:09:43,541 But if you can try to, to keep 1873 02:09:43,541 --> 02:09:45,208 your stuff compartmentalized for sure. 1874 02:09:45,958 --> 02:09:47,208 We get into all that stuff in this interview 1875 02:09:47,208 --> 02:09:49,291 area coming up, I think it's going to be late May. 1876 02:09:49,291 --> 02:09:49,666 So it's good. 1877 02:09:49,666 --> 02:09:53,375 It's going to be, I think three, three interviews out, which is six 1878 02:09:53,375 --> 02:09:55,541 weeks, because I alternate between 1879 02:09:55,541 --> 02:09:57,541 news stories and interviews for my show. 1880 02:09:58,791 --> 02:09:59,625 But we talk about that. 1881 02:09:59,625 --> 02:10:01,250 We get into those details a lot about what 1882 02:10:01,250 --> 02:10:02,666 they can and can't do and what they are doing. 1883 02:10:03,000 --> 02:10:04,458 And the fact of the matter is it's their equipment. 1884 02:10:04,916 --> 02:10:05,375 And you're right. 1885 02:10:05,375 --> 02:10:07,083 So if you're using their equipment, you should assume that they 1886 02:10:07,083 --> 02:10:09,208 can, they know everything you're doing on there and they can 1887 02:10:09,208 --> 02:10:11,750 legally, you don't, you don't have the right and 1888 02:10:11,750 --> 02:10:14,083 expect expectation of privacy on a company device. 1889 02:10:15,458 --> 02:10:19,291 So from that perspective, I don't think just because it's right 1890 02:10:19,291 --> 02:10:22,041 doesn't mean it's not creepy and are legal. 1891 02:10:22,416 --> 02:10:23,375 Let me say it's not right. 1892 02:10:23,375 --> 02:10:24,875 Just cause it's legal doesn't mean it's not creepy. 1893 02:10:25,333 --> 02:10:26,916 And that's what Facebook is doing here. 1894 02:10:26,916 --> 02:10:28,083 It's going to be super creepy. 1895 02:10:28,958 --> 02:10:30,958 And, you know, the Microsoft recall 1896 02:10:30,958 --> 02:10:33,250 was, was another thing like that, right? 1897 02:10:33,250 --> 02:10:36,375 Where Microsoft had this built-in AI agent that's going to keep 1898 02:10:36,375 --> 02:10:39,750 track, take pictures every of your screen every few, every few 1899 02:10:39,750 --> 02:10:41,291 seconds, I think is what they were doing. 1900 02:10:41,916 --> 02:10:43,458 Yeah, I think it was like every three seconds or something. 1901 02:10:43,541 --> 02:10:45,625 Yeah, read all your texts so that you could ask it later. 1902 02:10:45,625 --> 02:10:47,166 I mean, what was that website I was looking at before? 1903 02:10:47,166 --> 02:10:49,083 Or Hey, what was that email I started and then deleted? 1904 02:10:49,083 --> 02:10:51,875 I want to do that again, you know, but, but that 1905 02:10:51,875 --> 02:10:53,708 also means that we're going to mind that stuff. 1906 02:10:53,708 --> 02:10:54,833 And their security, of course, when 1907 02:10:54,833 --> 02:10:56,000 they first released, it was horrible. 1908 02:10:57,708 --> 02:10:58,416 But anyway, yeah. 1909 02:10:58,458 --> 02:11:02,000 So these devices you should assume, even if it's your own devices, 1910 02:11:02,000 --> 02:11:05,083 if it's a mobile device, we call it BYOD, bring your own device. 1911 02:11:05,541 --> 02:11:07,041 If you're, cause it used to be 1912 02:11:07,041 --> 02:11:08,666 issued a company phone back in the day. 1913 02:11:08,666 --> 02:11:11,000 And that's a lot less common now you bring your own phone because 1914 02:11:11,000 --> 02:11:12,333 nobody wants to carry two phones. 1915 02:11:13,083 --> 02:11:14,791 And so they put an MDM profile on your 1916 02:11:14,791 --> 02:11:16,875 device, which allows them to do certain things. 1917 02:11:17,333 --> 02:11:19,541 Usually it's pretty sandbox is my understanding actually. 1918 02:11:19,916 --> 02:11:20,833 Again, we talked about this in the 1919 02:11:20,833 --> 02:11:23,500 interview, but that is actually pretty clean. 1920 02:11:23,916 --> 02:11:25,791 And like they don't cross the streams. 1921 02:11:26,083 --> 02:11:27,750 Like they get access to Outlook or 1922 02:11:27,750 --> 02:11:29,541 whatever the company wants you to install. 1923 02:11:29,833 --> 02:11:33,291 It might force you to have a pin or a pin of a certain strength on 1924 02:11:33,291 --> 02:11:35,416 your device, things like that security, things 1925 02:11:35,416 --> 02:11:37,000 like that's cause they want to protect their IP. 1926 02:11:37,875 --> 02:11:39,500 And by that, I mean intellectual property. 1927 02:11:40,916 --> 02:11:43,416 But yeah, when it comes to the corporate laptop or the corporate 1928 02:11:43,416 --> 02:11:45,791 desktop, if you've got one of those, you should just completely 1929 02:11:45,791 --> 02:11:48,666 assume that even off hours, if you've taken it home, 1930 02:11:49,750 --> 02:11:51,750 they can, they can, they're probably 1931 02:11:51,750 --> 02:11:53,208 not doing it maliciously right now. 1932 02:11:53,208 --> 02:11:55,500 Like there's not somebody sitting in a security room somewhere to 1933 02:11:55,500 --> 02:11:57,625 like flipping through channels and look at 1934 02:11:57,625 --> 02:11:59,750 what employees are doing, but it's being recorded. 1935 02:11:59,750 --> 02:12:02,541 So they could go back at any point and look at logs and look at 1936 02:12:02,541 --> 02:12:05,541 those kinds of things and, you know, find some reason to fire you. 1937 02:12:06,666 --> 02:12:08,916 Yeah, I used to at my last job where they gave us 1938 02:12:08,916 --> 02:12:10,916 a company laptop, I, it was on the guest network. 1939 02:12:10,916 --> 02:12:11,750 So it was behind a VPN. 1940 02:12:12,041 --> 02:12:13,291 It was isolated from everything else. 1941 02:12:13,625 --> 02:12:16,583 And I would like, I would come home, I would log my hours, I'd send 1942 02:12:16,583 --> 02:12:18,291 my daily report and I'd turn it off and 1943 02:12:18,291 --> 02:12:19,541 put it in my backpack and put it away. 1944 02:12:20,125 --> 02:12:22,791 But, and I really tried to get in the habit of doing that before I 1945 02:12:22,791 --> 02:12:25,750 even left the job site, just because that way it's like, I don't 1946 02:12:25,750 --> 02:12:26,750 know, it just felt like it saved up 1947 02:12:26,750 --> 02:12:28,166 so much more time when I got home. 1948 02:12:28,166 --> 02:12:29,500 Like I get home and I just go straight 1949 02:12:29,500 --> 02:12:32,000 into shower, eat, whatever, but yeah. 1950 02:12:32,541 --> 02:12:33,708 Yeah, setting boundaries. 1951 02:12:33,708 --> 02:12:35,166 And that was a good way to do it, probably. 1952 02:12:37,083 --> 02:12:37,291 Yeah. 1953 02:12:38,375 --> 02:12:38,916 All righty. 1954 02:12:38,916 --> 02:12:41,041 So I think we're at the point in the show 1955 02:12:41,416 --> 02:12:43,291 where we will start taking listener questions. 1956 02:12:44,083 --> 02:12:44,666 Right on. 1957 02:12:44,708 --> 02:12:47,000 So if anybody, bring it on. 1958 02:12:47,000 --> 02:12:47,291 All right. 1959 02:12:47,500 --> 02:12:50,833 Yeah, if anybody has any questions, I know the chat's been pretty 1960 02:12:50,833 --> 02:12:53,500 busy, but if you have any more you've been holding onto, go ahead 1961 02:12:53,500 --> 02:12:56,750 and start leaving them in the comments or in the forum thread, 1962 02:12:56,750 --> 02:12:57,875 we're gonna check that in a minute. 1963 02:12:57,875 --> 02:12:59,666 But first on the topic of the forum, we're 1964 02:12:59,666 --> 02:13:02,916 gonna check in on, well, the community forum. 1965 02:13:03,166 --> 02:13:05,208 So there's always a lot of activity. 1966 02:13:05,458 --> 02:13:07,541 This week has been really busy, a lot of chatter. 1967 02:13:07,750 --> 02:13:09,333 I mean, we've posted a lot of articles and videos. 1968 02:13:09,541 --> 02:13:10,916 So a lot of chatter this week. 1969 02:13:11,583 --> 02:13:13,791 But this week I wanted to highlight specifically 1970 02:13:14,708 --> 02:13:18,250 a couple of very closely related forum messages. 1971 02:13:19,166 --> 02:13:20,250 So one of them is, 1972 02:13:21,750 --> 02:13:23,250 somebody said, "How much privacy can I really 1973 02:13:23,250 --> 02:13:24,958 have "when I'm being ratted out by my friends?" 1974 02:13:25,666 --> 02:13:27,833 And interesting choice of words there. 1975 02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:30,041 But basically they mentioned that they 1976 02:13:30,041 --> 02:13:31,833 have a friend that they play sports with. 1977 02:13:31,833 --> 02:13:33,125 And that friend recently said they 1978 02:13:33,125 --> 02:13:35,166 chose their team lineup using chat GPT. 1979 02:13:35,750 --> 02:13:38,333 So basically they told chat GPT all their friends, like playing 1980 02:13:38,333 --> 02:13:39,458 styles, strengths and weaknesses. 1981 02:13:40,333 --> 02:13:43,250 And they said, "Although the information "was probably subjective 1982 02:13:43,250 --> 02:13:45,708 and not highly sensitive, "I'm still uncomfortable with it." 1983 02:13:46,166 --> 02:13:48,125 And kind of just went on to talk about, 1984 02:13:49,208 --> 02:13:53,375 how do we interact with people who may be a little bit less privacy 1985 02:13:53,375 --> 02:13:55,000 focused than us and may not necessarily 1986 02:13:55,208 --> 02:13:56,458 see the issues with that kind of stuff. 1987 02:13:56,708 --> 02:13:58,500 And similarly, there was somebody 1988 02:13:58,500 --> 02:14:00,750 else who asked about messaging apps. 1989 02:14:00,750 --> 02:14:02,791 They said they made a friend who uses Line, 1990 02:14:03,000 --> 02:14:04,625 which is a really popular messenger in Asia. 1991 02:14:05,208 --> 02:14:06,708 I think it is technically end-to-end 1992 02:14:06,708 --> 02:14:07,916 encrypted, but don't quote me on that. 1993 02:14:07,916 --> 02:14:09,208 It's definitely proprietary either way. 1994 02:14:09,583 --> 02:14:12,041 So basically like the Asian version of WhatsApp. 1995 02:14:13,000 --> 02:14:14,833 And they said, "Why don't we use Signal?" 1996 02:14:14,833 --> 02:14:15,708 But the person declined. 1997 02:14:16,291 --> 02:14:17,916 They said, "I don't know why they declined to use Signal." 1998 02:14:19,125 --> 02:14:22,291 Apparently they said Asian mainstream media sometimes intimidates 1999 02:14:22,291 --> 02:14:24,500 people away from secure messaging apps because it associates them 2000 02:14:24,500 --> 02:14:27,000 with criminal activities, which is really unfortunate. 2001 02:14:27,708 --> 02:14:29,666 But they were kind of asking in that 2002 02:14:29,666 --> 02:14:32,250 specific scenario, like, "What are my options here? 2003 02:14:32,250 --> 02:14:33,625 Like I could sign up for a line 2004 02:14:33,625 --> 02:14:35,125 using this, I could use it this way." 2005 02:14:35,666 --> 02:14:39,083 But again, the overarching theme here that I really wanna discuss, 2006 02:14:39,083 --> 02:14:41,916 cause I know you and me, Carrie, both kind of come from a 2007 02:14:41,916 --> 02:14:45,791 background, like me at the New Oil and you at Firewells, and I 2008 02:14:45,791 --> 02:14:48,791 stopped Dragons, we come from a background of like kind of trying 2009 02:14:48,791 --> 02:14:51,458 to meet people where they are and trying to like nudge them towards 2010 02:14:51,458 --> 02:14:54,500 better security, but also accepting that unfortunately, a lot of 2011 02:14:54,500 --> 02:14:56,000 people are just gonna do the basics. 2012 02:14:56,000 --> 02:14:58,000 And sometimes we'll just be lucky if they even do the basics. 2013 02:14:58,583 --> 02:15:03,500 But so yeah, what are, I know this is a very nebulous way to word 2014 02:15:03,500 --> 02:15:05,416 this question, but I mean, what are your 2015 02:15:05,416 --> 02:15:09,458 thoughts on that, finding that balance between like 2016 02:15:10,500 --> 02:15:13,208 accepting that you can't always force people to be as into privacy 2017 02:15:13,208 --> 02:15:15,333 as you are, but also like still wanting 2018 02:15:15,333 --> 02:15:17,000 to preserve your privacy and respect that? 2019 02:15:18,291 --> 02:15:19,291 No, I think that's a really good point. 2020 02:15:19,291 --> 02:15:20,375 And it's something I think a lot of 2021 02:15:20,375 --> 02:15:22,833 people lose sight of and it takes two to tango. 2022 02:15:22,833 --> 02:15:25,708 And so you've got to trust the other people in your group. 2023 02:15:25,708 --> 02:15:27,875 And that is another actually a great feature, a signal where you 2024 02:15:27,875 --> 02:15:30,708 can set your messages to be disappearing, which is nice, right? 2025 02:15:30,708 --> 02:15:34,291 So at least you don't even have to count on the person at the other 2026 02:15:34,291 --> 02:15:36,458 end to make sure they're wiping the device every so often if you 2027 02:15:36,458 --> 02:15:38,000 could set that, which is another great use for signal. 2028 02:15:38,333 --> 02:15:41,000 In this case, this person was using this other tool, which I don't 2029 02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:45,083 know if it has such a feature, but even so you've got to, I mean, 2030 02:15:45,083 --> 02:15:47,166 as far as if you're threat modeling, what's going on, you've got to 2031 02:15:47,166 --> 02:15:51,583 just take into the account that everybody that you're talking to, 2032 02:15:51,583 --> 02:15:53,125 end-to-end encryption only goes to the ends. 2033 02:15:53,666 --> 02:15:56,291 And so any of those ends could be compromised, right? 2034 02:15:56,875 --> 02:15:59,208 And like, what was it? 2035 02:15:59,208 --> 02:16:00,500 We're good on ops sec, right? 2036 02:16:01,583 --> 02:16:05,208 When the guy- We're clean on ops sec, I think it was, but yeah. 2037 02:16:05,750 --> 02:16:06,583 We're clean on ops sec. 2038 02:16:06,583 --> 02:16:07,041 So clean. 2039 02:16:07,541 --> 02:16:08,250 Yeah, right. 2040 02:16:09,250 --> 02:16:11,083 So, yeah, it's something you gotta take into account. 2041 02:16:11,083 --> 02:16:12,833 And as far as how do you, 2042 02:16:14,000 --> 02:16:16,833 this is a perennial problem with this, with security and privacy 2043 02:16:16,833 --> 02:16:19,416 tools in general, is that you've got to, 2044 02:16:20,416 --> 02:16:21,333 and I struggle with this. 2045 02:16:21,333 --> 02:16:23,083 I mean, you want to communicate to your friends. 2046 02:16:23,416 --> 02:16:26,208 I'm on several group chats that are just, the ones that drive me 2047 02:16:26,208 --> 02:16:29,541 the most nuts are Android slash iPhone group chats, where you're 2048 02:16:29,541 --> 02:16:31,000 getting green bubble messages everywhere. 2049 02:16:31,125 --> 02:16:32,583 And some people have older iPhones, 2050 02:16:32,875 --> 02:16:34,375 so they're like duplicating messages. 2051 02:16:34,791 --> 02:16:36,875 And when someone puts a highlight on a message, instead of 2052 02:16:36,875 --> 02:16:38,166 highlighting it says, there's a text 2053 02:16:38,166 --> 02:16:40,125 message saying, so-and-so it said, "Haha." 2054 02:16:40,791 --> 02:16:44,125 You know, so you know, technically that's 2055 02:16:44,125 --> 02:16:46,125 all, you're already screwed, plus it's SMS. 2056 02:16:46,583 --> 02:16:48,000 So, you know, there's no security. 2057 02:16:48,333 --> 02:16:50,666 And I would love to say, "Hey guys, 2058 02:16:50,666 --> 02:16:52,250 let's all go to Signal and do this there." 2059 02:16:52,250 --> 02:16:55,000 And I just don't, I just shut up and roll with it. 2060 02:16:55,000 --> 02:16:57,750 So there's only so much you could do. 2061 02:16:58,750 --> 02:17:00,125 I've convinced certain sets of my 2062 02:17:00,125 --> 02:17:02,125 friends to use Signal for when it matters. 2063 02:17:02,416 --> 02:17:07,500 And I keep trying to get more, but that, well, 2064 02:17:07,500 --> 02:17:09,750 this is why it needs to be the default everywhere. 2065 02:17:10,291 --> 02:17:11,791 So, you know, so there's, there is no choice. 2066 02:17:11,791 --> 02:17:12,750 You don't have to worry about it. 2067 02:17:12,750 --> 02:17:14,958 Everyone's just, we should all just have it by default. 2068 02:17:15,166 --> 02:17:16,291 It's not a criminal thing. 2069 02:17:16,291 --> 02:17:17,416 It should not be, should not raise 2070 02:17:17,416 --> 02:17:19,375 eyebrows when someone is using end-end encryption. 2071 02:17:19,375 --> 02:17:20,750 It just should be the default. 2072 02:17:22,875 --> 02:17:23,625 Yeah, for sure. 2073 02:17:23,625 --> 02:17:26,958 And thankfully, like now RCS is starting to come with encryption, 2074 02:17:26,958 --> 02:17:28,541 but I know that's still in the early days. 2075 02:17:28,541 --> 02:17:32,250 I don't even think it's out of beta on iOS yet, but, but even then, 2076 02:17:32,250 --> 02:17:35,833 you know, RCS comes with metadata concerns, but it's certainly a 2077 02:17:35,833 --> 02:17:38,541 step up from, like you said, SMS, which is, I always tell people, 2078 02:17:38,541 --> 02:17:41,000 I'm like, SMS is basically a postcard at this point. 2079 02:17:41,541 --> 02:17:41,791 Yeah. 2080 02:17:41,833 --> 02:17:43,916 But yeah, it is really frustrating. 2081 02:17:43,916 --> 02:17:46,083 Cause like my, my brother, I'm very close with my 2082 02:17:46,083 --> 02:17:48,250 brother, but he's pretty much all in on Discord. 2083 02:17:49,375 --> 02:17:53,583 Like you might maybe call me on like a cell phone if there's an 2084 02:17:53,583 --> 02:17:55,083 emergency, but he's not going to switch 2085 02:17:55,083 --> 02:17:58,708 to Signal or anything, but it does suck. 2086 02:17:58,708 --> 02:18:00,958 But yeah, I think kind of one thing you said toward the beginning, 2087 02:18:01,458 --> 02:18:04,041 if I heard you correctly, you kind of mentioned threat modeling, 2088 02:18:04,041 --> 02:18:05,958 and I think that's a really important thing that, 2089 02:18:07,375 --> 02:18:08,666 you know, I'm a firm believer that like 2090 02:18:08,666 --> 02:18:11,208 privacy should not negatively impact you. 2091 02:18:11,708 --> 02:18:15,250 And it's definitely great to try and like encourage people to use 2092 02:18:15,250 --> 02:18:16,708 these messengers and try to nudge people 2093 02:18:16,708 --> 02:18:18,875 towards that and offer to help them out. 2094 02:18:18,875 --> 02:18:23,250 You know, like it's such a fine line to, between like being pushy 2095 02:18:23,250 --> 02:18:25,833 and being helpful of like, hey, what if I install it for you? 2096 02:18:25,833 --> 02:18:27,375 Like, would that make you more likely to use it? 2097 02:18:27,750 --> 02:18:28,916 Cause I've run into those kinds of people. 2098 02:18:28,958 --> 02:18:32,083 Like I've mentioned on previous episodes, I have my stepdad on 2099 02:18:32,083 --> 02:18:33,583 Signal and we have like a family group chat. 2100 02:18:33,583 --> 02:18:36,458 We're probably the only people he uses Signal with, but like I put 2101 02:18:36,458 --> 02:18:38,458 it on his phone and he uses it, no problem. 2102 02:18:38,708 --> 02:18:40,916 And I guarantee you, it probably would have been crazy to talk him, 2103 02:18:41,833 --> 02:18:43,000 I think he's almost in his seventies. 2104 02:18:43,583 --> 02:18:45,291 It, he might be in his seventies now. 2105 02:18:45,791 --> 02:18:48,166 And he's just, he's one of those, you know, obviously there's a lot 2106 02:18:48,166 --> 02:18:50,625 of like tech savvy older people, but he's not one of them. 2107 02:18:51,125 --> 02:18:53,500 And I'm sure trying to walk him through it over the phone or 2108 02:18:53,500 --> 02:18:56,000 something would have been a nightmare, but we just got together one 2109 02:18:56,000 --> 02:18:56,875 time and I was like, hey, if I put 2110 02:18:56,875 --> 02:18:58,000 this on your phone, will you use it? 2111 02:18:58,041 --> 02:18:58,750 And he's like, yeah, absolutely. 2112 02:18:59,208 --> 02:19:01,833 And so it's super awesome having all of 2113 02:19:01,833 --> 02:19:06,166 us in there now, but yeah, it's, excuse me. 2114 02:19:06,583 --> 02:19:08,125 But where I was going with the threat modeling is, you know, just 2115 02:19:08,125 --> 02:19:11,208 remembering that it's, how important is it? 2116 02:19:11,416 --> 02:19:13,541 It's, it's finding that trade off of like, 2117 02:19:14,583 --> 02:19:15,875 this person is important to me. 2118 02:19:16,083 --> 02:19:19,750 I'm willing to, you know, have, have this SMS conversation, but 2119 02:19:19,750 --> 02:19:22,541 also recognizing that maybe there's some things I'll wait to say 2120 02:19:22,541 --> 02:19:25,583 until we're in person or, you know, some things, I don't know. 2121 02:19:25,625 --> 02:19:29,791 So it's a, it's a top line for sure. 2122 02:19:30,250 --> 02:19:32,291 Like, well, so when it comes to things like family, like one thing 2123 02:19:32,291 --> 02:19:33,833 I did for my family is I just went ahead and 2124 02:19:33,833 --> 02:19:36,166 sucked it up and paid for proton family for everybody. 2125 02:19:36,166 --> 02:19:39,083 And that, you know, so once I'm paying for it, it's, it's, it was 2126 02:19:39,083 --> 02:19:40,333 easier to talk them into doing it a 2127 02:19:40,333 --> 02:19:43,500 little bit of, little bit of a guilt. 2128 02:19:46,791 --> 02:19:47,666 Cause that was my first thought. 2129 02:19:47,666 --> 02:19:49,750 If I did that for my family, I'd have to guilt them into it. 2130 02:19:49,750 --> 02:19:51,708 Guys, I spent like $600 on this. 2131 02:19:51,708 --> 02:19:52,625 Come on. 2132 02:19:52,833 --> 02:19:53,041 Right. 2133 02:19:53,750 --> 02:19:57,875 I wasn't, I wasn't above doing that for my, for my family. 2134 02:19:58,625 --> 02:20:00,750 So yeah, I totally agree though. 2135 02:20:00,958 --> 02:20:03,666 Helping other people do it could be a big, can be a big way to go. 2136 02:20:03,958 --> 02:20:05,333 Back to threat modeling. 2137 02:20:05,333 --> 02:20:07,083 I wish we could come up with a more, 2138 02:20:08,291 --> 02:20:09,625 less scary term for that. 2139 02:20:10,000 --> 02:20:12,208 Threat modeling sounds really technical. 2140 02:20:12,208 --> 02:20:13,375 It sounds really scary and people 2141 02:20:13,375 --> 02:20:14,666 like that immediately turns people off. 2142 02:20:14,666 --> 02:20:15,708 I wish we could come up with a better 2143 02:20:15,708 --> 02:20:18,833 marketing term for evaluating your situation, right? 2144 02:20:19,875 --> 02:20:22,625 Yeah, that's why I did give a talk recently 2145 02:20:23,083 --> 02:20:25,708 and I basically had to like recap all the basics. 2146 02:20:25,708 --> 02:20:27,958 And I started with threat modeling and I always tell people, I'm 2147 02:20:27,958 --> 02:20:30,291 like, it's just a fancy way of saying, what are you protecting? 2148 02:20:30,291 --> 02:20:31,250 Who are you protecting it from? 2149 02:20:31,500 --> 02:20:33,041 Like it's, it sounds scary. 2150 02:20:33,250 --> 02:20:35,583 I think we use it cause it makes us feel like spies and that's fun, 2151 02:20:35,583 --> 02:20:39,333 but it's a, it definitely sounds intimidating. 2152 02:20:41,916 --> 02:20:43,666 But yeah. 2153 02:20:45,416 --> 02:20:47,041 The privacy dad said I put graphene on my 2154 02:20:47,041 --> 02:20:48,750 partner's phone and I don't even think she realized. 2155 02:20:50,250 --> 02:20:51,000 Honestly, yeah. 2156 02:20:51,166 --> 02:20:54,291 I kind of want to ask my wife that because she also has a pixel, 2157 02:20:54,833 --> 02:20:56,583 but she's at the point where she settled in. 2158 02:20:56,583 --> 02:20:58,291 She's got all her apps on there and everything. 2159 02:20:58,500 --> 02:21:01,041 And I've asked her before, I'm like, hey, can I flash your phone? 2160 02:21:01,041 --> 02:21:02,250 Like put something on there. 2161 02:21:02,875 --> 02:21:04,916 And she's like, yeah, but I mean, 2162 02:21:04,916 --> 02:21:06,125 at first she was like, yeah, sure. 2163 02:21:06,541 --> 02:21:07,416 And then when I told her, I'm like, 2164 02:21:07,416 --> 02:21:08,541 you're gonna have to reinstall everything. 2165 02:21:08,541 --> 02:21:09,833 She's like, oh God, that sounds awful. 2166 02:21:10,541 --> 02:21:13,541 So I think next time we buy phones, I'm gonna be like, okay, before 2167 02:21:13,541 --> 02:21:16,083 you sign in, can I flash this phone? 2168 02:21:16,333 --> 02:21:17,500 And then it's all yours. 2169 02:21:18,291 --> 02:21:18,500 So. 2170 02:21:18,750 --> 02:21:21,041 I think browsers are a thing that really fit in that category too. 2171 02:21:21,541 --> 02:21:23,458 I mean, surfing the web, there are 2172 02:21:23,458 --> 02:21:24,500 some nice features here and there. 2173 02:21:24,500 --> 02:21:25,458 Most people probably don't use them. 2174 02:21:25,458 --> 02:21:28,666 If you replace somebody's browser, I think the chances are pretty 2175 02:21:28,666 --> 02:21:30,291 low they're even gonna notice because 2176 02:21:30,291 --> 02:21:32,166 they basically function the same way. 2177 02:21:33,166 --> 02:21:37,333 I have seen multiple stories on Reddit of more tech savvy people 2178 02:21:37,333 --> 02:21:40,833 who were like, oh, I went to my mom's house and found out she was 2179 02:21:40,833 --> 02:21:42,750 still using like Windows Explorer 2180 02:21:43,666 --> 02:21:44,916 or Microsoft, whatever it's called. 2181 02:21:45,458 --> 02:21:46,083 Internet Explorer. 2182 02:21:46,416 --> 02:21:47,083 Internet Explorer, yeah. 2183 02:21:47,500 --> 02:21:48,958 Yeah, and so it's like, I replaced it 2184 02:21:48,958 --> 02:21:50,625 with Chrome, but I changed the logo. 2185 02:21:50,750 --> 02:21:52,791 So it still says Internet Explorer and she 2186 02:21:52,791 --> 02:21:55,000 hasn't even noticed that it's been like six months. 2187 02:21:55,291 --> 02:21:56,000 Oh, that's funny. 2188 02:21:56,791 --> 02:22:01,958 I mean, some people for sure could definitely do that, but I feel 2189 02:22:01,958 --> 02:22:04,208 like Chrome is different enough that I think most of the people in 2190 02:22:04,208 --> 02:22:07,208 my life would notice like, wait, something's different, but yeah. 2191 02:22:08,666 --> 02:22:11,041 So, all righty. 2192 02:22:11,875 --> 02:22:17,083 I think on that note, we'll dive into questions and we'll start 2193 02:22:17,083 --> 02:22:19,708 with the questions on the forums, specifically if we have any 2194 02:22:19,708 --> 02:22:21,083 paying members or if we have any questions, I 2195 02:22:21,083 --> 02:22:22,625 don't think anybody did, but I'll take a look. 2196 02:22:23,333 --> 02:22:26,250 And if you want to become a paying member, you can go to 2197 02:22:26,250 --> 02:22:28,000 privacyguides.org and there's a little red 2198 02:22:28,000 --> 02:22:30,000 heart icon in the top right corner of the page. 2199 02:22:32,791 --> 02:22:35,458 So I told you all this brave story was extremely controversial and 2200 02:22:35,458 --> 02:22:39,000 I'm not kidding because if you go look at the forum post for this 2201 02:22:39,000 --> 02:22:43,541 episode, it's mostly people discussing amongst themselves. 2202 02:22:44,208 --> 02:22:48,583 So the first question came from Nisromo who said, "I'm sure you'll 2203 02:22:48,583 --> 02:22:49,583 talk about it, "but please be sure to 2204 02:22:49,583 --> 02:22:51,083 make a case "both before and against." 2205 02:22:51,666 --> 02:22:56,041 I hope we did that because I personally feel very split on it. 2206 02:22:56,041 --> 02:22:59,083 So I apologize if I came off as very 2207 02:22:59,083 --> 02:23:00,625 like either way because I don't know. 2208 02:23:00,875 --> 02:23:02,958 I see both sides of the argument personally, but. 2209 02:23:03,333 --> 02:23:04,416 Yeah, yeah, me too. 2210 02:23:04,958 --> 02:23:09,500 And yeah, again, to me, there's a difference between the marketing 2211 02:23:09,500 --> 02:23:11,000 aspect and the financial aspect of this. 2212 02:23:11,000 --> 02:23:13,083 I think the marketing was kind of weird, 2213 02:23:13,375 --> 02:23:15,291 but that doesn't mean you still can't do it. 2214 02:23:15,291 --> 02:23:17,291 And if you want to support them, that is a way to do it. 2215 02:23:17,333 --> 02:23:21,666 And if it gets you a better version of the browser or automatically 2216 02:23:21,666 --> 02:23:25,166 turns off all those things that drive you nuts, sure, I guess. 2217 02:23:26,416 --> 02:23:27,000 I can see either way. 2218 02:23:29,166 --> 02:23:34,125 So we did have Cs listed a couple of questions here. 2219 02:23:35,833 --> 02:23:37,750 Let's see, "I'd be interested to hear your thoughts "on the 2220 02:23:37,750 --> 02:23:40,083 following topics and stories if you have time. 2221 02:23:40,083 --> 02:23:41,666 "I know some of these stories." 2222 02:23:41,875 --> 02:23:43,250 So we can go through them pretty quick. 2223 02:23:43,250 --> 02:23:45,500 Did you hear about the Bitwarden CLI? 2224 02:23:46,500 --> 02:23:46,750 I did. 2225 02:23:46,750 --> 02:23:47,750 Was it compromised in the supply chain attack? 2226 02:23:48,791 --> 02:23:50,166 Yeah, I did. 2227 02:23:50,750 --> 02:23:52,041 Do you have any thoughts on that one? 2228 02:23:53,166 --> 02:23:55,541 Not on that one specifically, but supply chain attacks are a 2229 02:23:55,541 --> 02:23:57,416 serious, serious problem that needs to be fixed. 2230 02:23:57,625 --> 02:23:59,750 We need to lock, that is, we found 2231 02:23:59,750 --> 02:24:02,166 another soft spot in our processes. 2232 02:24:02,958 --> 02:24:04,833 And as a software engineer, I can tell you that that is, 2233 02:24:06,083 --> 02:24:08,041 for example, one of the things that's often done in software is 2234 02:24:08,041 --> 02:24:11,333 that you say, "Here's a list of software libraries I depend on." 2235 02:24:11,333 --> 02:24:12,708 Because software today is not, no one 2236 02:24:12,708 --> 02:24:14,625 writes their own software top to bottom anymore. 2237 02:24:16,000 --> 02:24:17,375 We're all using, it's a Frankenstein. 2238 02:24:17,708 --> 02:24:18,833 You're taking a piece of this, a piece of 2239 02:24:18,833 --> 02:24:19,958 that, because someone's already done it. 2240 02:24:20,250 --> 02:24:21,208 So why reinvent the wheel? 2241 02:24:21,625 --> 02:24:24,000 And so you bring in all these various parts and 2242 02:24:24,000 --> 02:24:26,583 libraries, some are open source, some are not. 2243 02:24:27,458 --> 02:24:28,875 And if you don't specify, 2244 02:24:29,916 --> 02:24:31,708 by default, what usually happens is it's 2245 02:24:31,708 --> 02:24:33,375 like, "Okay, here are the 10 things I depend on." 2246 02:24:33,708 --> 02:24:35,250 They'll get you the latest version every time. 2247 02:24:35,250 --> 02:24:37,166 When you do a new version of software, it will go and fetch the 2248 02:24:37,166 --> 02:24:38,625 latest version, because it figures you want that. 2249 02:24:38,958 --> 02:24:40,666 That's where the supply chain attacks bite. 2250 02:24:41,333 --> 02:24:43,375 So one of the things we could be doing and should be doing for all 2251 02:24:43,375 --> 02:24:45,958 these things is what we call pinning, where you say, "Okay, here's 2252 02:24:45,958 --> 02:24:47,583 the 10 things I depend on, and I want these 2253 02:24:47,583 --> 02:24:49,583 specific versions unless I tell you otherwise." 2254 02:24:50,166 --> 02:24:51,916 So at least if you get to the point where you can trust the 2255 02:24:51,916 --> 02:24:54,458 versions that are there, you're not gonna get bit because one of 2256 02:24:54,458 --> 02:24:57,291 those got taken over by somebody and the next version has got 2257 02:24:57,291 --> 02:24:58,958 built-in malware, because you're not 2258 02:24:58,958 --> 02:25:00,166 gonna go get that version automatically. 2259 02:25:00,791 --> 02:25:01,625 There are things like that. 2260 02:25:02,000 --> 02:25:05,083 There's processes that we need to, the new best practices that we 2261 02:25:05,083 --> 02:25:06,708 need to adopt, but that is a definite 2262 02:25:06,708 --> 02:25:09,541 soft spot today with software engineering. 2263 02:25:09,541 --> 02:25:13,250 So I don't hold it against the Bitwarden-Steel Eye folks. 2264 02:25:13,291 --> 02:25:15,250 It's probably one of those kinds of things that bit them. 2265 02:25:15,666 --> 02:25:17,375 Supply chain stuff is a serious problem. 2266 02:25:19,416 --> 02:25:23,208 Yeah, and I do wanna say for the record, for those who aren't 2267 02:25:23,208 --> 02:25:24,625 familiar with the story, because it is pretty new. 2268 02:25:24,625 --> 02:25:26,041 It just happened like the other day, I think. 2269 02:25:27,416 --> 02:25:28,250 So this was a, 2270 02:25:29,333 --> 02:25:30,791 like Kerry said, supply chain attack. 2271 02:25:30,791 --> 02:25:32,000 So it wasn't Bitwarden itself. 2272 02:25:32,000 --> 02:25:33,500 It was one of the libraries they used. 2273 02:25:34,333 --> 02:25:36,083 The library itself was actually only 2274 02:25:36,083 --> 02:25:37,875 compromised for about two hours, not even. 2275 02:25:38,083 --> 02:25:39,208 I think it's like an hour and a 2276 02:25:39,208 --> 02:25:44,750 half, 557 PM to 730 PM on April 22nd. 2277 02:25:45,041 --> 02:25:46,291 Bitwarden confirmed the incident. 2278 02:25:46,291 --> 02:25:48,958 They said that the breach affected its NPM distribution channel, 2279 02:25:49,916 --> 02:25:51,833 and only those who downloaded the malicious version. 2280 02:25:52,166 --> 02:25:54,458 So hopefully nobody downloaded it in the hour and a half window. 2281 02:25:55,083 --> 02:25:57,583 They said there's no evidence at this time that any end user vault 2282 02:25:57,583 --> 02:26:01,416 data was accessed or at risk, but they've already fixed it up. 2283 02:26:01,750 --> 02:26:04,291 So yeah, I mean, I'm with you. 2284 02:26:04,458 --> 02:26:06,041 You talk about the supply chain. 2285 02:26:06,708 --> 02:26:07,083 What do you call it? 2286 02:26:07,083 --> 02:26:07,833 The bill of materials? 2287 02:26:09,000 --> 02:26:09,541 Or a manifest. 2288 02:26:09,875 --> 02:26:11,208 It has different names, but yeah. 2289 02:26:11,916 --> 02:26:14,000 You mentioned that a few times on the podcast, and that's 2290 02:26:14,000 --> 02:26:16,750 definitely, I think, I was real hopeful for a minute there. 2291 02:26:16,750 --> 02:26:18,750 We were seeing a whole bunch of supply chain attacks. 2292 02:26:18,750 --> 02:26:20,208 Oh, S-BOM, software bill of materials. 2293 02:26:20,208 --> 02:26:21,666 Yes, I have talked about that several times. 2294 02:26:21,666 --> 02:26:22,125 Keep going. 2295 02:26:22,458 --> 02:26:24,750 Yeah, and I remember thinking, I'm like, we might finally start 2296 02:26:24,750 --> 02:26:27,041 making some progress on this, but I 2297 02:26:27,041 --> 02:26:29,041 haven't really heard anything, so I don't know. 2298 02:26:29,791 --> 02:26:31,333 That is something that as a software 2299 02:26:31,333 --> 02:26:32,916 engineer, I would say we should all have. 2300 02:26:32,916 --> 02:26:36,250 And it sounds maybe easier than it is, but basically what that is 2301 02:26:36,250 --> 02:26:37,500 is that ingredients list for your 2302 02:26:37,500 --> 02:26:39,166 software, and you publish that with the software. 2303 02:26:39,166 --> 02:26:40,125 So you can say, these are all the 2304 02:26:40,125 --> 02:26:41,250 things that my software depends on. 2305 02:26:41,541 --> 02:26:43,833 Now, some companies are gonna say lots of proprietary secret, even 2306 02:26:43,833 --> 02:26:49,208 if I'm using a public library of some sort, OpenSSL, let's say. 2307 02:26:49,500 --> 02:26:51,666 Even if I'm using that, I don't wanna tell people I'm using that, 2308 02:26:51,666 --> 02:26:54,250 because maybe, again, security through obscurity, maybe it's gonna 2309 02:26:54,250 --> 02:26:57,416 expose me to people who's gonna find an exploit in the version I'm 2310 02:26:57,416 --> 02:26:58,500 using, and then try to exploit me. 2311 02:26:59,000 --> 02:26:59,166 Okay. 2312 02:27:00,125 --> 02:27:03,833 But the flip side of that is it also tells people, if we had 2313 02:27:03,833 --> 02:27:06,208 software bill of materials, if every piece of software you 2314 02:27:06,208 --> 02:27:09,750 downloaded came with a machine readable list of ingredients that 2315 02:27:09,750 --> 02:27:13,291 went into that software, then your operating system could keep 2316 02:27:13,291 --> 02:27:17,166 track of all that and find like, oh, OpenSSL version this, which 2317 02:27:17,166 --> 02:27:20,458 you have in this app, in this app, in this app right now, is been 2318 02:27:20,458 --> 02:27:23,000 compromised, which means those apps are then compromised, you 2319 02:27:23,000 --> 02:27:25,500 should stop using them, or update those apps right away. 2320 02:27:25,791 --> 02:27:27,875 It would give us that transparency and that visibility that will 2321 02:27:27,875 --> 02:27:29,166 allow us to react to those things. 2322 02:27:29,458 --> 02:27:31,625 So I think, yeah, you could look at it, 2323 02:27:31,625 --> 02:27:32,875 it's just kind of like open source software. 2324 02:27:32,875 --> 02:27:35,833 A lot of people say, well, if I show you, if I open Kemono this 2325 02:27:35,833 --> 02:27:37,666 whole thing, you're gonna know how to exploit me. 2326 02:27:38,375 --> 02:27:42,083 Okay, but the upshot, when you look at net net, it's better for 2327 02:27:42,083 --> 02:27:45,291 everybody, if people have had a chance to review that stuff, and 2328 02:27:45,291 --> 02:27:48,791 now we've got tools that'll do it, like Mythos, that will find bugs 2329 02:27:48,791 --> 02:27:50,708 in it, hopefully so you can fix them, as 2330 02:27:50,708 --> 02:27:52,708 opposed to just hoping that nobody finds these bugs. 2331 02:27:53,166 --> 02:27:56,208 So yeah, that was software bill of materials or S-bomb, which I 2332 02:27:56,208 --> 02:27:57,875 think is a fantastic idea, but yeah, it has 2333 02:27:57,875 --> 02:27:59,458 not really, unfortunately has not caught on. 2334 02:28:01,791 --> 02:28:02,000 Yeah. 2335 02:28:04,125 --> 02:28:05,833 Yeah, it's, oh, I was gonna say, 2336 02:28:06,916 --> 02:28:10,833 if you haven't, last week's episode, I think we talked about this, 2337 02:28:10,833 --> 02:28:12,458 because cal.com went closed source. 2338 02:28:13,000 --> 02:28:14,916 Yeah, no, I heard that, yes, I did listen to that. 2339 02:28:15,500 --> 02:28:19,291 Yeah, I was gonna say Discourse, which is our forum software that 2340 02:28:19,291 --> 02:28:25,208 we use, their maker kind of issued a very, very aggressive rebuttal 2341 02:28:25,583 --> 02:28:27,625 where they pointed out, kind of like you're saying like, yeah, 2342 02:28:27,625 --> 02:28:29,958 okay, security through obscurity might slow them 2343 02:28:29,958 --> 02:28:32,583 down a little bit, but probably not that much, but 2344 02:28:32,583 --> 02:28:34,291 yeah, it's- Well, they also got into the lighting. 2345 02:28:34,916 --> 02:28:35,416 Okay, good. 2346 02:28:35,833 --> 02:28:38,625 I was gonna say, like, you mentioned earlier that like security 2347 02:28:38,625 --> 02:28:41,208 through obscurity isn't necessarily bad, and I agree with you on 2348 02:28:41,208 --> 02:28:43,375 that, because to me, it's like, it 2349 02:28:43,375 --> 02:28:44,750 should be part of a defense in depth. 2350 02:28:44,750 --> 02:28:47,458 Like if you're only relying on security through obscurity, that's 2351 02:28:47,458 --> 02:28:49,458 probably bad, but if you're layering 2352 02:28:49,458 --> 02:28:51,041 it with other things, like- Correct. 2353 02:28:52,458 --> 02:28:55,625 Like password logging, password logins, right? 2354 02:28:55,625 --> 02:28:56,500 That's a really good example. 2355 02:28:56,500 --> 02:28:59,458 If your credentials, if you're not using the same password, and 2356 02:28:59,458 --> 02:29:03,000 you're not using the same username on every single website, that's 2357 02:29:03,000 --> 02:29:04,250 a little bit of security through obscurity, 2358 02:29:04,500 --> 02:29:06,125 but then you layer it with like two factors. 2359 02:29:06,541 --> 02:29:08,125 So probably not the best example. 2360 02:29:08,791 --> 02:29:09,250 (Laughs) 2361 02:29:09,916 --> 02:29:12,208 Yeah, so yeah, you definitely don't wanna rely on security through 2362 02:29:12,208 --> 02:29:13,208 obscurity, but it's also another 2363 02:29:13,208 --> 02:29:14,541 layer that doesn't hurt you either. 2364 02:29:14,541 --> 02:29:16,958 I mean, you know, but where I take 2365 02:29:16,958 --> 02:29:18,750 exception to that is with open source software. 2366 02:29:18,750 --> 02:29:21,458 I think it does help to have other eyes on software, and now other 2367 02:29:21,458 --> 02:29:22,958 tools that can look at that software. 2368 02:29:24,375 --> 02:29:26,375 And I know you've mentioned this fact, I think you mentioned it 2369 02:29:26,375 --> 02:29:29,833 maybe last week, where you said, you said that just because it's 2370 02:29:29,833 --> 02:29:32,375 open source doesn't mean it's gotta be more secure, but it gives 2371 02:29:32,375 --> 02:29:35,166 you the opportunity for other people to look at it and perhaps find 2372 02:29:35,166 --> 02:29:37,416 bugs and get them fixed, which is a good thing. 2373 02:29:40,625 --> 02:29:42,541 Yeah, that's my take at least. 2374 02:29:44,291 --> 02:29:44,416 (Laughs) 2375 02:29:45,125 --> 02:29:46,208 So this person did have a couple 2376 02:29:46,208 --> 02:29:47,916 other things they wanted us to look at. 2377 02:29:48,166 --> 02:29:51,000 Did you hear about how Firefox is 2378 02:29:51,000 --> 02:29:53,541 actually gonna start adding built-in ad blocking? 2379 02:29:55,000 --> 02:29:56,541 No, I hadn't heard that one yet, huh. 2380 02:29:56,708 --> 02:29:59,375 Oh man, I'll have to go find you an actual article because this 2381 02:29:59,375 --> 02:30:02,166 one, they just linked the Mozilla Bugzilla, 2382 02:30:02,333 --> 02:30:04,583 like their little in-house GitHub kind of thing. 2383 02:30:06,166 --> 02:30:07,583 I've seen at least one article write up 2384 02:30:07,583 --> 02:30:09,375 about it, but I'm not sure how good it is. 2385 02:30:09,583 --> 02:30:11,333 But yeah, they're basically going to, 2386 02:30:12,791 --> 02:30:15,375 they're gonna be using Brave's ad block 2387 02:30:15,375 --> 02:30:18,208 implementation, which I believe is written in Rust. 2388 02:30:19,166 --> 02:30:23,000 And again, I was traveling this week, so I didn't really read it 2389 02:30:23,000 --> 02:30:24,875 that closely, but I think it is, 2390 02:30:25,250 --> 02:30:26,583 let me see if I can go find it here. 2391 02:30:27,000 --> 02:30:31,041 Yeah, they're gonna be using Brave's ad block Rust engine. 2392 02:30:32,250 --> 02:30:34,500 And it's basically gonna be like a little bit of a built-in ad 2393 02:30:34,500 --> 02:30:37,208 blocker, which I think is really cool. 2394 02:30:39,125 --> 02:30:40,875 How my YouTube reaction-- Because Brave's built-in ad blockers, 2395 02:30:40,875 --> 02:30:42,958 because it's my secondary browser, 2396 02:30:42,958 --> 02:30:45,000 so I don't surf everywhere with it. 2397 02:30:45,333 --> 02:30:47,875 Is the built-in Brave stuff pretty good for blocking ads? 2398 02:30:48,500 --> 02:30:49,708 I mean, I think it's pretty good. 2399 02:30:50,291 --> 02:30:51,500 Is it comparable to UBlock Origin? 2400 02:30:52,250 --> 02:30:53,125 I was gonna say, I think it's 2401 02:30:53,125 --> 02:30:55,000 honestly just like a copy of UBlock Origin. 2402 02:30:55,250 --> 02:30:56,916 I think they make some changes to it, but I 2403 02:30:56,916 --> 02:30:58,875 think it's largely based on UBlock Origin, 2404 02:31:00,000 --> 02:31:01,041 or at least it uses a lot of the 2405 02:31:01,041 --> 02:31:02,500 same lists that UBlock Origin does. 2406 02:31:02,500 --> 02:31:04,791 So I don't know why they didn't just go with that personally, but 2407 02:31:04,791 --> 02:31:07,333 yeah, it looks like this is a pretty... 2408 02:31:08,375 --> 02:31:10,708 Jonah says here that Brave's is a little bit lighter weight. 2409 02:31:11,916 --> 02:31:13,958 So, okay, let's see. 2410 02:31:13,958 --> 02:31:15,000 Oh, this is a pretty short article. 2411 02:31:15,791 --> 02:31:18,833 Mozilla's bundling, pretty excited to see them finally. 2412 02:31:18,833 --> 02:31:19,958 It landed in 149. 2413 02:31:20,666 --> 02:31:21,166 Oh, okay. 2414 02:31:21,166 --> 02:31:21,958 It's an experiment. 2415 02:31:21,958 --> 02:31:24,625 It's disabled by default, no UI, no filter lists, 2416 02:31:26,166 --> 02:31:30,875 but looks like Waterfox rolls it on, and then he 2417 02:31:30,875 --> 02:31:34,958 talks about how to enable it in your about config. 2418 02:31:36,000 --> 02:31:39,541 So I might, if I remember, I will try to add that to the show 2419 02:31:39,541 --> 02:31:41,791 notes, which means I might do it tomorrow 2420 02:31:41,791 --> 02:31:44,875 while I'm making clips of these, but yeah, no. 2421 02:31:44,875 --> 02:31:45,958 I mean, I'm really excited about that 2422 02:31:45,958 --> 02:31:47,250 because I think personally that's been... 2423 02:31:49,250 --> 02:31:51,625 I have a lot of little nitpicky complaints with Firefox, 2424 02:31:52,916 --> 02:31:55,875 and then I have a few that I think are kind of bigger, I think this 2425 02:31:55,875 --> 02:31:57,083 is kind of somewhere in the middle is... 2426 02:31:57,791 --> 02:32:00,625 Okay, so actually, let me premise this, or preface this. 2427 02:32:01,416 --> 02:32:05,000 So when I make shorts over at the new oil, 2428 02:32:05,208 --> 02:32:07,000 I'll make shorts about ad blocking, right? 2429 02:32:07,458 --> 02:32:09,166 And I'll tell people, I'm like, download Brave. 2430 02:32:09,750 --> 02:32:12,291 And people get mad at me because they're mad at the company behind 2431 02:32:12,291 --> 02:32:13,416 Brave, they're mad at the guy at the 2432 02:32:13,416 --> 02:32:15,166 top of Brave, which is fair, that's fine. 2433 02:32:15,666 --> 02:32:17,000 And they're like, well, you should use Firefox. 2434 02:32:17,000 --> 02:32:19,083 And it's like, okay, but I'm making a TikTok video. 2435 02:32:19,666 --> 02:32:21,541 And what are people more likely to do? 2436 02:32:22,041 --> 02:32:26,708 Download Brave versus download Firefox and then install UBlock 2437 02:32:26,708 --> 02:32:28,083 Origin and then make these dozen 2438 02:32:28,083 --> 02:32:30,250 changes to bring it up to Brave's level. 2439 02:32:30,958 --> 02:32:32,708 Like Brave is just so set and forget, 2440 02:32:32,708 --> 02:32:34,083 and we have to make it easy for people. 2441 02:32:34,416 --> 02:32:37,875 And so I really appreciate that Firefox is like doing that and 2442 02:32:37,875 --> 02:32:39,958 getting up to that level where it's like, 2443 02:32:41,000 --> 02:32:45,291 now it's becoming easier to recommend that people just like go 2444 02:32:45,291 --> 02:32:48,666 download Brave or go download Firefox, they're both equally good. 2445 02:32:48,875 --> 02:32:50,833 And I'm excited to see them getting up to that level personally. 2446 02:32:51,458 --> 02:32:54,958 Okay, so I'll be flipping that back at you. 2447 02:32:54,958 --> 02:32:58,125 So one of the reasons that I didn't go to Brave and sometimes the 2448 02:32:58,125 --> 02:33:01,333 reason I don't tell people to use Brave, as I recall back in the 2449 02:33:01,333 --> 02:33:05,333 day, and this may have changed, having to like disable their bat 2450 02:33:05,333 --> 02:33:09,916 token thing and having to disable their AI now and have it, which 2451 02:33:09,916 --> 02:33:11,708 by the way, Firefox, their new CEO is 2452 02:33:11,708 --> 02:33:13,500 like, we're all in on AI, I'm like, no. 2453 02:33:14,166 --> 02:33:14,375 Anyway, 2454 02:33:15,416 --> 02:33:18,166 so for me, it was like, okay, yeah, Brave out of the box was 2455 02:33:18,166 --> 02:33:19,875 private, but then I'd also have to tell people 2456 02:33:20,375 --> 02:33:22,250 to disable this, disable this, turn this off. 2457 02:33:22,916 --> 02:33:24,666 So to me, it was kind of a wash. 2458 02:33:26,041 --> 02:33:27,958 And I mean, don't get me wrong, like if you go to like privacy 2459 02:33:27,958 --> 02:33:30,583 guides, for example, if you go to our website, we do have like a 2460 02:33:30,583 --> 02:33:32,750 recommendation, like you should still tweak these things. 2461 02:33:33,125 --> 02:33:35,625 But I think, I kind of think for some 2462 02:33:35,625 --> 02:33:37,166 reason, most people just don't care. 2463 02:33:37,166 --> 02:33:40,125 Like again, when I look at my wife's computer, she's got the bat 2464 02:33:40,125 --> 02:33:43,041 stuff turned on, she's got the sponsored images turned on. 2465 02:33:43,291 --> 02:33:44,416 Like I think, 2466 02:33:45,833 --> 02:33:46,791 and for the record, I'm not saying this 2467 02:33:46,791 --> 02:33:48,000 in praise of them because I'm with you. 2468 02:33:48,000 --> 02:33:50,041 I kind of wish that stuff wasn't there or at least I wish it was 2469 02:33:50,041 --> 02:33:53,208 off by default because I'm pretty sure the crypto people are smart 2470 02:33:53,208 --> 02:33:54,083 enough to go looking through the 2471 02:33:54,083 --> 02:33:55,708 settings and know how to turn things on. 2472 02:33:55,791 --> 02:33:57,041 Which by the way, Joni just said, 2473 02:33:57,041 --> 02:33:59,083 that's the point of the new Brave Origin. 2474 02:33:59,958 --> 02:34:01,541 Yeah, true, good point. 2475 02:34:02,708 --> 02:34:05,583 And actually on that note, Cass here said, maybe Firefox should 2476 02:34:05,583 --> 02:34:07,708 sell a $60 alternative for the app in default. 2477 02:34:08,708 --> 02:34:09,833 You know what, I'd pay for that. 2478 02:34:09,833 --> 02:34:11,541 I'm not even gonna lie, I would pay for that. 2479 02:34:12,875 --> 02:34:15,750 And it would be a sustainable business model, unlike just buying 2480 02:34:15,750 --> 02:34:17,958 random extensions nobody's ever heard of. 2481 02:34:18,875 --> 02:34:20,625 And then killing the ones that people actually liked. 2482 02:34:20,625 --> 02:34:22,583 You mentioned Pocket before we started recording. 2483 02:34:22,916 --> 02:34:25,333 That was like the one time Mozilla killed something and everybody 2484 02:34:25,333 --> 02:34:27,500 on my Mastodon timeline was like, dude, what the heck? 2485 02:34:28,000 --> 02:34:28,291 Yeah. 2486 02:34:28,750 --> 02:34:29,000 Anyways. 2487 02:34:30,458 --> 02:34:34,291 But no, I think it's, for better or worse, I think Brave has 2488 02:34:34,291 --> 02:34:35,666 designed those features in a way where 2489 02:34:35,666 --> 02:34:37,708 they're not really intrusive to the average person. 2490 02:34:38,625 --> 02:34:41,000 So I don't know, it's, at least I've never 2491 02:34:41,000 --> 02:34:44,500 heard anybody complain about it, but I agree. 2492 02:34:44,500 --> 02:34:46,583 It would be nice if they turned it off, but I think it's still just 2493 02:34:46,583 --> 02:34:49,708 an easier sell to tell people like, go use Brave, that's one step, 2494 02:34:49,708 --> 02:34:52,875 versus go use Firefox, but also you need to make some changes, so. 2495 02:34:53,625 --> 02:34:56,291 I will give Brave some credit in trying to 2496 02:34:56,291 --> 02:34:59,250 find a different way to monetize the internet. 2497 02:34:59,958 --> 02:35:01,875 Because it seems like, you know, micro 2498 02:35:01,875 --> 02:35:03,833 payments was gonna save us at one point. 2499 02:35:03,833 --> 02:35:05,125 Like, okay, we're gonna do micro payments. 2500 02:35:05,125 --> 02:35:08,583 And then there was this push for a little while of, let us mine 2501 02:35:08,583 --> 02:35:10,208 Bitcoin while you're on our page. 2502 02:35:10,791 --> 02:35:13,208 And it's all running in the browser, it's all contained, but you 2503 02:35:13,208 --> 02:35:15,416 know, hey, while you're on our site, there's this little thing 2504 02:35:15,416 --> 02:35:17,083 running in the background that's trying to mine Bitcoin. 2505 02:35:17,583 --> 02:35:19,583 I thought those were at least interesting. 2506 02:35:19,958 --> 02:35:22,166 Because ads, ad-based internet is what's 2507 02:35:22,166 --> 02:35:24,416 causing all of these problems in the first place. 2508 02:35:24,625 --> 02:35:28,000 We've got to find some other way to monetize 2509 02:35:28,000 --> 02:35:30,375 the internet that's kind of free-ish, right? 2510 02:35:30,375 --> 02:35:32,291 That people don't have to necessarily, I don't know. 2511 02:35:32,833 --> 02:35:34,166 So I give them credit for trying 2512 02:35:34,166 --> 02:35:35,666 to come up with some way to do that. 2513 02:35:36,000 --> 02:35:37,750 I just don't like what they chose. 2514 02:35:39,000 --> 02:35:40,291 No, and I agree with you. 2515 02:35:40,291 --> 02:35:42,333 And I find myself doing that too. 2516 02:35:42,875 --> 02:35:44,875 Like lately I've really been thinking a lot about, 2517 02:35:47,083 --> 02:35:48,000 I'll be honest, I just think a lot 2518 02:35:48,000 --> 02:35:50,333 about diet and finances and stuff. 2519 02:35:50,333 --> 02:35:51,958 And I'm like, man, why am I willing to buy, 2520 02:35:53,166 --> 02:35:55,250 especially with inflation and everything, like a soda is like $3 2521 02:35:55,250 --> 02:35:59,541 now, and it's gone in like an hour, but I'm not willing to pay like 2522 02:35:59,541 --> 02:36:02,041 five bucks a month for some kind of membership or something. 2523 02:36:02,041 --> 02:36:03,583 And it's just, it's so weird. 2524 02:36:03,916 --> 02:36:05,875 Like marketing's got us all messed up, man. 2525 02:36:06,500 --> 02:36:07,000 (Laughing) 2526 02:36:07,333 --> 02:36:08,208 I don't know what the solution is. 2527 02:36:08,208 --> 02:36:10,291 Because then on the other hand, there's certain things where I'll 2528 02:36:10,291 --> 02:36:12,166 admit, like there's certain YouTube channels I watch where I'm 2529 02:36:12,166 --> 02:36:13,833 like, I like this channel, but quite 2530 02:36:13,833 --> 02:36:15,583 frankly, I don't get enough value to pay for it. 2531 02:36:15,625 --> 02:36:17,500 If it went paid tomorrow, I would just stop watching. 2532 02:36:18,166 --> 02:36:20,000 But then, there's other things that it's like, 2533 02:36:20,000 --> 02:36:21,458 yeah, but I do get a lot of value out of this. 2534 02:36:21,458 --> 02:36:22,625 Like why am I not paying for it? 2535 02:36:23,041 --> 02:36:24,666 I don't know, it's weird. 2536 02:36:24,666 --> 02:36:26,208 It's weird what's happened to us. 2537 02:36:26,625 --> 02:36:29,375 But sustainability is an issue for everybody, I think. 2538 02:36:31,416 --> 02:36:34,291 The last one we had here is they were asking if we had any thoughts 2539 02:36:34,291 --> 02:36:36,750 on the way that Signal handles edited messages. 2540 02:36:37,541 --> 02:36:39,958 So I don't know if you've noticed, but basically when you edit a 2541 02:36:39,958 --> 02:36:42,083 message on Signal, I guess people 2542 02:36:42,083 --> 02:36:43,791 can see the changes that you made. 2543 02:36:45,416 --> 02:36:47,375 Oh, I actually had not noticed that. 2544 02:36:48,458 --> 02:36:50,916 I don't know if I've noticed that before or not. 2545 02:36:51,458 --> 02:36:53,125 I personally think that's perfect. 2546 02:36:53,541 --> 02:36:57,458 In fact, I've argued for that on social media, especially the damn 2547 02:36:57,458 --> 02:36:59,333 sites that don't let you edit your messages. 2548 02:36:59,666 --> 02:37:01,000 Oh my God, that drives me nuts. 2549 02:37:01,875 --> 02:37:04,250 Let me edit it and fine, keep the original. 2550 02:37:04,750 --> 02:37:06,291 I'm actually okay with that. 2551 02:37:06,291 --> 02:37:08,291 So that people can see if you've altered something. 2552 02:37:08,291 --> 02:37:11,958 I think that, especially on social media, perhaps, you could say 2553 02:37:11,958 --> 02:37:14,375 maybe for public figures, but whatever, everybody fine. 2554 02:37:15,000 --> 02:37:17,250 I think that solves the problem with the editing thing. 2555 02:37:17,250 --> 02:37:19,875 Edit it and just let people see your past edits. 2556 02:37:19,875 --> 02:37:23,375 And I think that preserves the, what's the 2557 02:37:23,375 --> 02:37:26,375 something trail, the audit trail or the log trail. 2558 02:37:27,250 --> 02:37:28,083 I'm okay with that. 2559 02:37:29,083 --> 02:37:30,458 Do you have an opinion? 2560 02:37:30,666 --> 02:37:34,125 Do you do not think that's cool to be able to go back and see, 2561 02:37:34,125 --> 02:37:36,333 because when I edit something, usually it's a typo or I want to 2562 02:37:36,333 --> 02:37:39,166 expand on something or realize that something I said was ambiguous. 2563 02:37:39,166 --> 02:37:41,458 So I want to add a little notes like this. 2564 02:37:41,500 --> 02:37:43,041 Here's the context that is missing from this 2565 02:37:43,041 --> 02:37:44,416 that so you can understand what I'm saying. 2566 02:37:44,416 --> 02:37:47,083 That's usually why I would edit a message on Signal. 2567 02:37:48,791 --> 02:37:51,458 Do you have a problem, what do you think, with showing that it's? 2568 02:37:52,291 --> 02:37:53,833 No, I mean, me personally, no, because I'm 2569 02:37:53,833 --> 02:37:56,291 kind of in the same boat as you, where I feel bad. 2570 02:37:56,291 --> 02:37:59,083 I try to reread my, especially longer messages, because like I 2571 02:37:59,083 --> 02:38:02,416 said, I am pro at typos or just forgetting a whole word. 2572 02:38:02,416 --> 02:38:06,041 Usually it's a small word, like the, or something like that. 2573 02:38:06,333 --> 02:38:09,250 But yeah, so a lot of the time I'll send a message. 2574 02:38:09,250 --> 02:38:11,291 And then if it's a long one, I'm like rereading it and I'm 2575 02:38:11,291 --> 02:38:13,916 constantly like, oh, go edit, I miss that word. 2576 02:38:14,666 --> 02:38:16,250 Oh, go edit, I type of that. 2577 02:38:16,250 --> 02:38:17,291 Oh, shit, go edit again. 2578 02:38:17,291 --> 02:38:20,000 And I try to group them because otherwise I feel like I'm just 2579 02:38:20,000 --> 02:38:21,125 gonna keep pinging the person every 2580 02:38:21,125 --> 02:38:22,458 time I edit it, which is annoying. 2581 02:38:23,083 --> 02:38:26,500 But I don't know, I think somebody pointed out, like I hate to do 2582 02:38:26,500 --> 02:38:28,625 whataboutism, but somebody pointed out that like, I feel like the 2583 02:38:28,625 --> 02:38:31,708 bigger concern here is, because basically they were saying like, 2584 02:38:31,708 --> 02:38:33,916 what if basically you said something 2585 02:38:33,916 --> 02:38:35,291 you didn't want the other person to see? 2586 02:38:35,291 --> 02:38:38,625 Like maybe you sent the wrong message to somebody or you like, 2587 02:38:38,625 --> 02:38:40,875 maybe you're having an argument, you said something hurtful, 2588 02:38:40,875 --> 02:38:42,541 which-- Could you just delete that though? 2589 02:38:42,833 --> 02:38:43,750 I mean, delete, just delete. 2590 02:38:44,458 --> 02:38:47,208 Well, so for the record, that's my bigger 2591 02:38:47,208 --> 02:38:51,083 concern is because I've, I struggle with depression. 2592 02:38:51,083 --> 02:38:52,291 I'm pretty open about that. 2593 02:38:52,291 --> 02:38:53,958 And every once in a while when I'm depressed, 2594 02:38:55,250 --> 02:38:57,208 I'll say something to somebody, like not 2595 02:38:57,208 --> 02:39:00,833 anything hurtful, but like I struggle to reach out. 2596 02:39:02,083 --> 02:39:03,375 I'm trying to figure out how to word this. 2597 02:39:03,875 --> 02:39:05,541 But then sometimes I'll doubt myself. 2598 02:39:05,541 --> 02:39:07,791 Like I'll send somebody a message and then my brain is just like, 2599 02:39:07,791 --> 02:39:09,750 man, just like, don't bother them with your crap. 2600 02:39:09,750 --> 02:39:10,500 And so I'll delete it. 2601 02:39:10,916 --> 02:39:12,583 And I've actually had times where people were 2602 02:39:12,583 --> 02:39:15,291 like, like, hold on, I saw you deleted that. 2603 02:39:15,291 --> 02:39:17,250 I saw the message preview, like, let's talk about this. 2604 02:39:17,250 --> 02:39:18,625 And I'm just like, oh my God, dude. 2605 02:39:19,333 --> 02:39:20,916 And you know, like that one's kind of relevant. 2606 02:39:20,916 --> 02:39:21,666 And that one's a good one, right? 2607 02:39:21,666 --> 02:39:23,416 Like people are trying to like help me out and be there. 2608 02:39:23,708 --> 02:39:25,833 But like, that's the bigger concern to me. 2609 02:39:26,166 --> 02:39:28,333 And I know this is again, this is kind of like what about is, but 2610 02:39:28,333 --> 02:39:29,583 like most people have notifications 2611 02:39:29,833 --> 02:39:31,916 turned on and the previews are turned on. 2612 02:39:32,541 --> 02:39:34,791 So what happens when you delete the message, 2613 02:39:34,791 --> 02:39:36,458 the preview doesn't go away, it's still there. 2614 02:39:37,125 --> 02:39:40,125 So I don't know, to me, that would be the bigger concern is like, 2615 02:39:40,125 --> 02:39:41,041 they're still probably gonna see 2616 02:39:41,041 --> 02:39:42,916 that preview even if you delete it. 2617 02:39:43,583 --> 02:39:44,958 Cause otherwise, yeah, I'm with you. 2618 02:39:44,958 --> 02:39:46,291 Like that would be the easy workaround is 2619 02:39:46,291 --> 02:39:48,041 just delete it and redraft it completely. 2620 02:39:49,750 --> 02:39:52,708 So yeah, I don't know if this is, I guess that's what I'm trying to 2621 02:39:52,708 --> 02:39:54,541 say is, I don't know if this is the bigger concern. 2622 02:39:54,541 --> 02:39:56,791 I think the bigger concern would be the message 2623 02:39:56,791 --> 02:39:59,916 previews that most people likely have enabled, but. 2624 02:40:00,875 --> 02:40:03,333 I thought it was interesting that we talked a little bit about the 2625 02:40:03,333 --> 02:40:07,333 signal thing where they figured out how to, I mean, this was as far 2626 02:40:07,333 --> 02:40:09,666 as I was in a bug in iOS, which by the way, they just fixed, 2627 02:40:11,041 --> 02:40:13,333 where they got into the signal messages to somebody because the 2628 02:40:13,333 --> 02:40:15,666 notifications, there was a whole database for the notifications. 2629 02:40:15,666 --> 02:40:16,708 And if you have those set to show in 2630 02:40:16,708 --> 02:40:18,625 your lock screen or certain situations, 2631 02:40:19,666 --> 02:40:21,250 they will get put in this database. 2632 02:40:21,500 --> 02:40:23,625 Even if you delete the app, which was the big thing. 2633 02:40:23,625 --> 02:40:26,208 So I think what Apple finally fixes, if you delete the app, it goes 2634 02:40:26,208 --> 02:40:30,333 to this database and also deletes the history of notifications. 2635 02:40:31,958 --> 02:40:34,833 But, you know, I don't know. 2636 02:40:34,833 --> 02:40:38,041 I guess delete should be delete. 2637 02:40:38,041 --> 02:40:39,500 I think that's, to me, that would be the solution. 2638 02:40:39,791 --> 02:40:40,458 So delete is delete. 2639 02:40:40,458 --> 02:40:41,916 So if I delete, it deletes it from all 2640 02:40:41,916 --> 02:40:43,458 this memory that should not show up anywhere. 2641 02:40:43,458 --> 02:40:45,041 If they happen to see it, I can't stop them. 2642 02:40:45,458 --> 02:40:47,375 But if they hadn't seen it yet, I delete it. 2643 02:40:47,375 --> 02:40:48,750 I think it should just be gone from their phone. 2644 02:40:48,750 --> 02:40:49,916 I think that's the delete angle and 2645 02:40:49,916 --> 02:40:51,375 hopefully that would cover most cases. 2646 02:40:51,791 --> 02:40:53,541 But I think otherwise edits, sure, I'm 2647 02:40:53,541 --> 02:40:55,041 fine retaining the edit history, I think. 2648 02:40:55,583 --> 02:40:57,458 And I wish that, like I said, I wish that that's how they would 2649 02:40:57,458 --> 02:41:00,500 solve edits on social media as well, because I 2650 02:41:00,500 --> 02:41:03,500 hate the fact that I will do this all the time. 2651 02:41:03,500 --> 02:41:05,375 I'll put a notice on Twitter. 2652 02:41:05,958 --> 02:41:08,041 I don't wanna get an eight-mail. 2653 02:41:08,333 --> 02:41:09,833 I don't like, but I gotta be there 2654 02:41:09,833 --> 02:41:10,875 because that's where a lot of people are. 2655 02:41:11,125 --> 02:41:12,833 So anyway, otherwise I don't like Twitter. 2656 02:41:12,916 --> 02:41:13,458 We have a Twitter too. 2657 02:41:14,166 --> 02:41:17,250 Yeah, it's the curse of being a public figure, I guess. 2658 02:41:17,666 --> 02:41:19,333 So I post on Twitter, and you can't change it. 2659 02:41:19,625 --> 02:41:20,708 And so I have to delete it. 2660 02:41:20,708 --> 02:41:23,500 And it very, by the time I'm posting on the third, I'm copy and 2661 02:41:23,500 --> 02:41:26,250 pasting to the third thing, I've done Mastodon and Blue Sky, and 2662 02:41:26,250 --> 02:41:27,708 I'm like, "Oh crap, there's a typo." 2663 02:41:27,875 --> 02:41:29,250 And I go back and fix Mastodon. 2664 02:41:29,958 --> 02:41:31,666 I can't fix Blue Sky, I can't fix 2665 02:41:31,666 --> 02:41:33,125 Twitter, and I gotta delete and re-add. 2666 02:41:33,125 --> 02:41:34,583 And of course, by then, someone's already liked 2667 02:41:34,583 --> 02:41:37,041 it, and I've just lost, anyway, drives me nuts. 2668 02:41:39,416 --> 02:41:40,750 How long has Twitter been around now? 2669 02:41:40,750 --> 02:41:43,041 And I swear to God, back when I used to use Twitter, back in like 2670 02:41:43,041 --> 02:41:45,000 2012, people were asking for that. 2671 02:41:46,583 --> 02:41:48,625 And why, is there a reason why they don't have it? 2672 02:41:48,625 --> 02:41:49,708 I don't get it. 2673 02:41:49,708 --> 02:41:50,458 Like, what's the reasoning? 2674 02:41:51,416 --> 02:41:53,083 I honestly don't know, I couldn't tell you. 2675 02:41:53,083 --> 02:41:54,166 I don't know if there's some kind of technical. 2676 02:41:54,500 --> 02:41:58,791 Well, I know, okay, so I know on Reddit, when you make a post, you 2677 02:41:58,791 --> 02:42:02,125 can edit it within the first, I think like five minutes, because 2678 02:42:02,125 --> 02:42:04,750 Reddit has a huge problem, or at least had, I don't know if they 2679 02:42:04,750 --> 02:42:07,166 still do, but they used to have a huge problem with like people 2680 02:42:07,166 --> 02:42:11,791 would go in, and they would make a comment, and it would get like a 2681 02:42:11,791 --> 02:42:13,208 lot of upvotes or whatever, it would get visibility. 2682 02:42:13,791 --> 02:42:16,000 And then they would go in and like edit the comment and make it say 2683 02:42:16,000 --> 02:42:18,791 something completely different, like sometimes something borderline 2684 02:42:18,791 --> 02:42:22,708 offensive or crazy, or like they would like make it seem like the 2685 02:42:22,708 --> 02:42:25,000 person responding to them was saying something crazy. 2686 02:42:25,791 --> 02:42:28,791 And I don't think Reddit lets you see the post history, but there 2687 02:42:28,791 --> 02:42:30,500 is a little star, and that means it's 2688 02:42:30,500 --> 02:42:32,791 been edited after that little five minutes. 2689 02:42:32,791 --> 02:42:35,208 So they give you like a little window where like, if you're like me 2690 02:42:35,208 --> 02:42:36,500 and you're like, oops, I forgot a word, 2691 02:42:36,500 --> 02:42:38,333 like you can go edit it and star is not there. 2692 02:42:38,333 --> 02:42:39,208 Yeah, that's not a bad compromise. 2693 02:42:39,208 --> 02:42:39,750 But yeah, if you come back an hour later. 2694 02:42:40,666 --> 02:42:43,208 But I do think if you edit it, it should wipe all likes. 2695 02:42:44,166 --> 02:42:46,666 I mean, it should start over, because for that exact problem, 2696 02:42:47,333 --> 02:42:49,333 because yeah, I don't want to put up something like, I love 2697 02:42:49,333 --> 02:42:50,791 puppies, and everyone says, yeah, thumbs 2698 02:42:50,791 --> 02:42:52,208 up, and it's like, and also I'm Hitler. 2699 02:42:52,750 --> 02:42:54,333 And you said that later, right? 2700 02:42:55,166 --> 02:42:57,083 Yeah, that's the kind of thing people were doing, I think. 2701 02:42:58,583 --> 02:43:00,083 Yeah, I mean, Anonymous here is a good point. 2702 02:43:00,083 --> 02:43:02,333 Like they should make it, if you disable edit history for yourself, 2703 02:43:02,333 --> 02:43:04,875 you can't see others edit history, which I mean, Signal already 2704 02:43:04,875 --> 02:43:07,083 does that for like Red Receipt stories. 2705 02:43:07,500 --> 02:43:11,833 Like I do have stories enabled, but I don't have view history. 2706 02:43:11,833 --> 02:43:15,833 So I can't see who sees my stories, and they can't see when I like 2707 02:43:15,833 --> 02:43:17,125 there, it's, you know, it goes both ways. 2708 02:43:17,375 --> 02:43:21,416 So I mean, that seems like a good compromise, but I don't know. 2709 02:43:22,250 --> 02:43:24,000 Yeah, interesting stuff. 2710 02:43:24,041 --> 02:43:25,750 Interesting fun things to talk about, but. 2711 02:43:26,375 --> 02:43:26,791 Totally agree. 2712 02:43:27,916 --> 02:43:30,166 I think that was actually all our questions. 2713 02:43:30,166 --> 02:43:32,583 It looks like all the other posts 2714 02:43:32,750 --> 02:43:35,958 were people discussing the brave thing. 2715 02:43:35,958 --> 02:43:39,083 And man, this was such a very contentious topic. 2716 02:43:39,083 --> 02:43:41,083 People have, which I mean, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. 2717 02:43:41,083 --> 02:43:42,791 Did they cover anything that we didn't cover? 2718 02:43:42,791 --> 02:43:43,875 Are there any angles to this? 2719 02:43:45,625 --> 02:43:46,208 I don't think so. 2720 02:43:46,208 --> 02:43:48,250 They're just kind of explaining, I think, let's see here. 2721 02:43:48,250 --> 02:43:51,125 They're talking about what counts as a license. 2722 02:43:51,500 --> 02:43:55,375 Like if you install, if you reinstall your operating system, does 2723 02:43:55,375 --> 02:43:57,291 that count as one of the 10 activations? 2724 02:43:59,083 --> 02:44:00,375 How do you get activations back? 2725 02:44:00,666 --> 02:44:03,250 So if I go through 10 devices when I buy that 2726 02:44:03,250 --> 02:44:06,000 11th device, how can I get my 10 activations back? 2727 02:44:08,500 --> 02:44:10,291 So yeah, I don't know. 2728 02:44:10,875 --> 02:44:11,791 Oh, can I throw out one more story? 2729 02:44:12,375 --> 02:44:13,250 I've got one more story. 2730 02:44:13,500 --> 02:44:14,000 Sure, I love stories. 2731 02:44:15,708 --> 02:44:17,458 This goes back to the AI coding stuff. 2732 02:44:17,458 --> 02:44:19,041 If you can't tell, I'm kind of fixated on this lately. 2733 02:44:19,916 --> 02:44:22,500 So do you remember, did you ever watch "Halt and Catch Fire"? 2734 02:44:24,375 --> 02:44:27,916 No, but it's, I've heard of it, or I've heard the phrase at least. 2735 02:44:27,916 --> 02:44:30,916 The first season satirized a thing that actually happened. 2736 02:44:30,916 --> 02:44:34,666 And that was back in the day in the, I guess in the 80s when IBM 2737 02:44:34,666 --> 02:44:37,166 had a proprietary BIOS for their PCs. 2738 02:44:38,458 --> 02:44:39,791 And of course, and they wouldn't, you 2739 02:44:39,791 --> 02:44:41,125 have to license or sell it or whatever. 2740 02:44:41,125 --> 02:44:44,666 Somebody figured out, hey, I got to take a group of engineers and I 2741 02:44:44,666 --> 02:44:48,041 got to say, go dig through this BIOS and figure out what it does. 2742 02:44:48,041 --> 02:44:50,000 I want you to look deep into it. 2743 02:44:50,000 --> 02:44:53,416 If you can find the code, find the code, but give me a spec. 2744 02:44:53,958 --> 02:44:56,125 Tell me what this BIOS does and describe it. 2745 02:44:56,875 --> 02:44:58,000 And then, okay, give that to me. 2746 02:44:58,000 --> 02:45:00,250 And then what they did is they hired a whole separate set of 2747 02:45:00,250 --> 02:45:02,208 engineers and said, here's your spec, make this. 2748 02:45:03,166 --> 02:45:04,583 So what they called, that's called a clean room. 2749 02:45:04,833 --> 02:45:06,666 And basically what they did to get around the copyright and the 2750 02:45:06,666 --> 02:45:09,375 licensing was they reverse engineered it. 2751 02:45:10,208 --> 02:45:13,958 And they had one group reverse, they had one group actually pick it 2752 02:45:13,958 --> 02:45:16,625 all apart as a black box and come up with all the specs for it and 2753 02:45:16,625 --> 02:45:18,666 hand that to another group of engineers who'd never seen the code, 2754 02:45:19,000 --> 02:45:20,000 never worked with it to create a 2755 02:45:20,000 --> 02:45:21,875 complete copy that works just like it. 2756 02:45:22,875 --> 02:45:24,083 And so that's how they got around 2757 02:45:24,083 --> 02:45:25,958 this thing, they reverse engineered. 2758 02:45:26,000 --> 02:45:27,750 Somebody has come up with, and they said 2759 02:45:27,750 --> 02:45:30,125 this was supposed to be satire, but it works. 2760 02:45:30,708 --> 02:45:33,000 They've come up with an AI tool that 2761 02:45:33,000 --> 02:45:35,250 will take a code, you give it any code. 2762 02:45:35,250 --> 02:45:37,291 I think it mostly works on open source code, 2763 02:45:38,375 --> 02:45:40,958 but you could, by the way, you could decompile binaries from 2764 02:45:40,958 --> 02:45:42,500 regular code and still get the code. 2765 02:45:42,500 --> 02:45:44,500 So even a side open source, you can still kind of get to it. 2766 02:45:45,166 --> 02:45:50,250 He created a tool that takes one set of AI agents and picks apart 2767 02:45:50,250 --> 02:45:53,500 the software, learns it, writes a spec, figures out what it does 2768 02:45:53,500 --> 02:45:56,500 and comes up with a spec for what that tool does. 2769 02:45:56,500 --> 02:46:00,541 And then takes the spec to a different set of AI agents. 2770 02:46:00,541 --> 02:46:02,333 So this is all automated, this is a single click. 2771 02:46:02,833 --> 02:46:03,291 Takes another set of agents. 2772 02:46:03,333 --> 02:46:04,250 I think I know where you're going with this. 2773 02:46:04,375 --> 02:46:06,041 Writes the software based on that. 2774 02:46:06,041 --> 02:46:08,958 And then, and the reason, one of the reasons this guy did is like 2775 02:46:08,958 --> 02:46:11,916 we didn't like the LG LPL license that came with the original code, 2776 02:46:11,916 --> 02:46:14,250 which means I had a back contributor or whatever. 2777 02:46:14,833 --> 02:46:16,041 I want to rewrite this with an MIT 2778 02:46:16,041 --> 02:46:17,416 license, which is much more permissive. 2779 02:46:17,666 --> 02:46:20,708 So I, they basically had AI, two sets of AI agents 2780 02:46:21,916 --> 02:46:24,375 rewrite it so they could come, so they could basically say, we 2781 02:46:24,375 --> 02:46:26,375 didn't look at the code when we did this. 2782 02:46:26,583 --> 02:46:27,750 That's the point of my mind. 2783 02:46:28,500 --> 02:46:29,750 I think I saw the headlines about 2784 02:46:29,750 --> 02:46:31,291 that one, but I haven't read the story. 2785 02:46:31,291 --> 02:46:31,833 Yeah, that's funny. 2786 02:46:32,458 --> 02:46:35,333 They're making like copyright free AI or 2787 02:46:35,333 --> 02:46:37,291 whatever because of that, that's so funny. 2788 02:46:40,166 --> 02:46:42,291 People, I love the ingenuity of it. 2789 02:46:42,875 --> 02:46:43,291 I love it. 2790 02:46:43,750 --> 02:46:44,375 I'm tired of it. 2791 02:46:44,791 --> 02:46:44,958 Yeah. 2792 02:46:45,833 --> 02:46:46,250 All right. 2793 02:46:47,500 --> 02:46:49,916 I think we're gonna call it here for this week though. 2794 02:46:50,500 --> 02:46:52,333 Thank you everybody who joined us. 2795 02:46:52,875 --> 02:46:54,333 All the updates from this episode 2796 02:46:54,333 --> 02:46:56,375 will be shared on the blog every week. 2797 02:46:56,791 --> 02:46:59,583 So if you are a regular listener, sign up for the newsletter or 2798 02:46:59,583 --> 02:47:02,208 subscribe with your favorite RSS reader if you want to stay tuned. 2799 02:47:02,958 --> 02:47:04,166 I'm still letting people know. 2800 02:47:04,166 --> 02:47:07,500 If you didn't know, we send the newsletter out as soon as the show 2801 02:47:07,500 --> 02:47:09,958 starts at five, well, five Eastern time. 2802 02:47:10,541 --> 02:47:13,375 And if you are subscribed, you'll get that. 2803 02:47:13,375 --> 02:47:14,208 And that'll be kind of your 2804 02:47:14,208 --> 02:47:15,500 reminder that, hey, the show is starting. 2805 02:47:16,250 --> 02:47:18,208 For people who prefer audio, we have a 2806 02:47:18,208 --> 02:47:20,250 podcast available on all podcast platforms. 2807 02:47:20,250 --> 02:47:23,166 And again, on RSS and this video will be synced to PeerTube. 2808 02:47:23,750 --> 02:47:25,125 We want to thank Kerry again for 2809 02:47:25,125 --> 02:47:26,708 coming on and being a guest this week. 2810 02:47:26,791 --> 02:47:28,333 And I'm gonna let him tell you guys a 2811 02:47:28,333 --> 02:47:30,208 little bit more about his show and his book. 2812 02:47:30,958 --> 02:47:31,791 Yeah, just a couple more things. 2813 02:47:32,750 --> 02:47:34,541 So this has been a, this is gonna be a big year for me. 2814 02:47:34,541 --> 02:47:35,750 It already has kind of been a big year. 2815 02:47:35,750 --> 02:47:38,000 So this is the ninth year I've been doing my podcast. 2816 02:47:38,000 --> 02:47:40,750 I'm on episode, I don't know, what am I on? 2817 02:47:40,750 --> 02:47:41,375 477. 2818 02:47:42,083 --> 02:47:44,333 I've done a podcast every week for 400 seven times. 2819 02:47:45,000 --> 02:47:46,791 The book is actually about a year or two older than that. 2820 02:47:47,208 --> 02:47:49,000 And both of those things are got big things this year. 2821 02:47:49,000 --> 02:47:50,875 So as you could tell by the numbering, I'm 2822 02:47:50,875 --> 02:47:54,333 gonna be hitting 500 in September, episode 500. 2823 02:47:54,333 --> 02:47:55,708 That's gonna be a really big deal. 2824 02:47:56,208 --> 02:48:00,208 And so in years past, so the funny story, in years past I tried to 2825 02:48:00,208 --> 02:48:03,791 get, you know, when I was in my tens of episodes, I kept reaching 2826 02:48:03,791 --> 02:48:05,000 out to Bruce Schneier, who's a 2827 02:48:05,000 --> 02:48:07,291 cryptographer and well-known security guy. 2828 02:48:07,583 --> 02:48:08,958 And I kept reaching out to Bruce and he was nice 2829 02:48:08,958 --> 02:48:10,500 enough to respond, but he always said he was busy. 2830 02:48:10,500 --> 02:48:11,583 I like, I want you to get on my show. 2831 02:48:11,625 --> 02:48:12,083 I want you to interview. 2832 02:48:12,500 --> 02:48:14,875 And finally, I was like, okay, the 100th episode was coming up and 2833 02:48:14,875 --> 02:48:17,125 I said, Bruce, look, I'm gonna ask you one more time. 2834 02:48:17,916 --> 02:48:20,500 I promise I will stop bugging you, but this is the 100th episode. 2835 02:48:20,500 --> 02:48:21,541 I'd really like to make it special. 2836 02:48:22,083 --> 02:48:24,583 I'd like to have you do, I guess I'm on the 100th episode. 2837 02:48:25,041 --> 02:48:25,708 He's like, you know what? 2838 02:48:26,125 --> 02:48:27,000 I'll do it. 2839 02:48:27,333 --> 02:48:28,916 So I got Bruce Schneier for the 100th. 2840 02:48:29,208 --> 02:48:30,041 I was super proud of that. 2841 02:48:30,666 --> 02:48:32,750 And then I think at the end of that episode, I 2842 02:48:32,750 --> 02:48:34,708 jokingly said, well, I'll see you at the 200. 2843 02:48:34,708 --> 02:48:35,625 Like, all right, I'll see you then. 2844 02:48:35,625 --> 02:48:37,083 I'm like, okay. 2845 02:48:37,666 --> 02:48:38,541 So I got him for the 200. 2846 02:48:38,791 --> 02:48:39,708 I got him for the 300. 2847 02:48:39,750 --> 02:48:41,416 So he's been my pod centennial guy. 2848 02:48:42,333 --> 02:48:45,583 So naturally I'm gonna be talking to Bruce to come back, but I 2849 02:48:45,583 --> 02:48:47,708 really want to try to get some big names. 2850 02:48:47,708 --> 02:48:49,458 I'm gonna do multiple big episodes. 2851 02:48:49,458 --> 02:48:51,875 So anyway, we'll see if I can pull that off, but I'm gonna try to 2852 02:48:51,875 --> 02:48:54,708 do big things to separate and not just for the podcast. 2853 02:48:54,708 --> 02:48:55,833 I'm gonna do some fun things for that. 2854 02:48:55,833 --> 02:48:56,875 So be on look up for that. 2855 02:48:57,708 --> 02:48:59,750 Also, I just am about, I'm this close 2856 02:48:59,750 --> 02:49:01,541 to, I've got the contract in my hand. 2857 02:49:01,541 --> 02:49:03,583 I haven't signed it yet for the sixth edition of my book. 2858 02:49:04,000 --> 02:49:06,458 So I wrote my book 10 years ago and I've done multiple editions 2859 02:49:06,458 --> 02:49:08,000 because my book has got a bunch of screenshots. 2860 02:49:09,000 --> 02:49:10,875 And so those get stale. 2861 02:49:11,166 --> 02:49:13,416 Like, I think two years later, I need to 2862 02:49:13,416 --> 02:49:15,416 unfortunately do the whole book and it's getting big. 2863 02:49:15,750 --> 02:49:17,833 And the screenshots are like 40% of the content. 2864 02:49:18,416 --> 02:49:19,916 So anyway, I'm due for a sixth edition. 2865 02:49:19,916 --> 02:49:21,000 And I think what I'm gonna do this 2866 02:49:21,000 --> 02:49:22,083 time around is a little bit different. 2867 02:49:22,666 --> 02:49:23,375 I'll make it smaller. 2868 02:49:23,375 --> 02:49:23,833 I'll make it cheaper. 2869 02:49:24,208 --> 02:49:24,875 Yeah, there you go. 2870 02:49:25,541 --> 02:49:27,333 Sucker is 600 pages, no lie. 2871 02:49:27,833 --> 02:49:30,125 It is, it's big. 2872 02:49:30,833 --> 02:49:32,583 It's honestly, it's gotten too big. 2873 02:49:32,583 --> 02:49:35,625 So what I'm gonna do is I'm going to split out the really volatile 2874 02:49:35,625 --> 02:49:37,916 parts and make that a free downloadable PDF. 2875 02:49:38,500 --> 02:49:41,000 So that I can update whenever I want as 2876 02:49:41,000 --> 02:49:43,541 needed and not have to redo the book every time. 2877 02:49:43,541 --> 02:49:45,416 So I'm gonna try to write a sixth edition of this book. 2878 02:49:46,208 --> 02:49:48,500 And I'm about to sign the contract to do that. 2879 02:49:48,500 --> 02:49:49,875 So it should be out hopefully by this fall. 2880 02:49:50,833 --> 02:49:52,041 It's gonna be thinner, it's gonna be cheaper. 2881 02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:55,041 And then all the PDF, all the 2882 02:49:55,041 --> 02:49:57,625 downloadable PDF for all the really volatile stuff. 2883 02:49:57,958 --> 02:49:59,041 So anyway, the book could just hopefully 2884 02:49:59,041 --> 02:50:00,666 stand on its own for a while after that. 2885 02:50:01,000 --> 02:50:03,083 So I'm also hoping to do that around September. 2886 02:50:03,083 --> 02:50:04,541 So they're all gonna, all this stuff is gonna 2887 02:50:04,541 --> 02:50:05,958 kind of hopefully come together in September. 2888 02:50:07,916 --> 02:50:08,958 Awesome, can't wait. 2889 02:50:10,458 --> 02:50:11,666 All righty. 2890 02:50:12,708 --> 02:50:16,125 As for privacy guides, we are an impartial nonprofit organization 2891 02:50:16,125 --> 02:50:19,666 that is focused on building a strong privacy advocacy community and 2892 02:50:19,666 --> 02:50:21,208 delivering the best digital privacy and 2893 02:50:21,208 --> 02:50:23,750 consumer technology rights advice on the internet. 2894 02:50:24,666 --> 02:50:28,000 If you want to support our mission, then you can make a donation on 2895 02:50:28,000 --> 02:50:30,666 our website, privacyguides.org slash donate. 2896 02:50:31,916 --> 02:50:33,416 You could also click the red heart icon 2897 02:50:33,416 --> 02:50:34,958 in the top right corner of the website. 2898 02:50:35,250 --> 02:50:36,916 I think it's visible on like any page. 2899 02:50:37,208 --> 02:50:40,000 You can contribute using standard fiat currency via debit or credit 2900 02:50:40,000 --> 02:50:41,791 card, or you can donate anonymously using 2901 02:50:41,791 --> 02:50:43,291 Monero or with your favorite cryptocurrency. 2902 02:50:44,125 --> 02:50:48,208 Becoming a paid member unlocks exclusive perks like early access to 2903 02:50:48,208 --> 02:50:51,125 videos, priority during the live stream Q&A. 2904 02:50:51,416 --> 02:50:53,166 You'll also get a cool badge on your profile in 2905 02:50:53,166 --> 02:50:55,541 the forum where Kerry is a regular participant. 2906 02:50:55,791 --> 02:50:57,291 I see your name pop up quite a lot. 2907 02:50:57,666 --> 02:50:58,625 And you'll get the warm fuzzy 2908 02:50:58,625 --> 02:51:00,291 feeling of supporting independent media. 2909 02:51:00,791 --> 02:51:03,208 So thank you all for watching and we'll be back next week. 2910 02:51:05,250 --> 02:51:38,583 (Upbeat Music)