1 00:00:41,665 --> 00:00:45,405 Okay, welcome to the Warrior Saint. 2 00:00:45,905 --> 00:00:52,746 I'm Hari Nam Singh Khalsa and I have Puri Piyari Singh with me 3 00:00:52,746 --> 00:01:05,842 What we're basically doing is we're inviting you into our private conversations So you can do a little eavesdropping on our private conversation and see what's in there for you. 4 00:01:05,842 --> 00:01:07,072 So uh 5 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:15,821 Anyhow, welcome aboard my good friend and Maybe you'd like to let us know a little bit about yourself 6 00:01:15,821 --> 00:01:19,209 So people can get a flavor of, who you are and. 7 00:01:19,209 --> 00:01:23,437 where you are and what got you to where you are. 8 00:01:23,645 --> 00:01:25,136 Yeah, of course. 9 00:01:25,136 --> 00:01:27,977 So as I said, I'm Gurpiare. 10 00:01:27,977 --> 00:01:31,248 I am 30 years old, to be exact. 11 00:01:31,248 --> 00:01:41,632 And uh I was born in this very uh like uh kind of industrial city in the south of Argentina, which is Comodoro Rivadavia. 12 00:01:41,632 --> 00:01:52,296 uh If any of our listeners ever read Stephen King, it's kind of like being born in one of Stephen King's towns and like one of his main places in his books. 13 00:01:52,296 --> 00:01:53,193 uh 14 00:01:53,193 --> 00:01:58,575 kind of a very remote place, very harsh, very tough place. 15 00:01:58,776 --> 00:02:00,985 But it's also beautiful in its own way. 16 00:02:00,985 --> 00:02:04,298 I have learned to love it throughout the years. 17 00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:11,042 I studied English here in my city for a number of years. 18 00:02:11,042 --> 00:02:18,305 I studied at uh a language institute, which is the Winlands Institute of Cultures and Languages. 19 00:02:18,586 --> 00:02:23,068 And I have been teaching English since I was about 20 00:02:23,337 --> 00:02:25,138 18 years old. 21 00:02:25,138 --> 00:02:36,683 started teaching at a very early age and uh I've also done other things related to translation and writing and uh other jobs related to that. 22 00:02:36,683 --> 00:02:48,908 my main uh thing professionally for about 12 years has been mostly language and teaching English to people, both teenagers and adults for the most part. 23 00:02:50,269 --> 00:02:52,543 So that makes you about 30. 24 00:02:52,667 --> 00:02:53,694 Yeah, yeah, sorry. 25 00:02:53,694 --> 00:02:54,689 Exactly. 26 00:02:55,793 --> 00:02:56,547 Okay, right. 27 00:02:56,547 --> 00:02:58,734 And you're still in Commodore? 28 00:02:59,365 --> 00:03:09,636 I am here for now, but next year I am going back to the city of Cordoba in the center, the very center of the country. 29 00:03:11,502 --> 00:03:14,251 And why are you doing that? 30 00:03:15,770 --> 00:03:17,213 It's because... 31 00:03:19,428 --> 00:03:27,634 artistically speaking, I'm a big lover of the arts in general, not just writing, but I'm also a musician. 32 00:03:27,634 --> 00:03:29,715 do acting as well. 33 00:03:29,715 --> 00:03:39,342 And, I already lived in Cordoba for a couple of years and the place is just loaded with that kind of stuff. 34 00:03:39,342 --> 00:03:41,744 has a thriving artistic scene. 35 00:03:41,744 --> 00:03:48,608 Probably the only bigger one in the, in the entire country would be Buenos Aires and, uh 36 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:55,318 It's not only that, Cordoba also has a lot of people I love, you know, I have family there. 37 00:03:55,318 --> 00:03:56,651 I have a lot of friends there. 38 00:03:56,651 --> 00:03:59,202 get acquaintances, colleagues. 39 00:03:59,443 --> 00:04:13,111 And, although I love my own city, I, I think that, you know, sort of going back there and reconnecting with all of that would be a good move personally and career wise as well. 40 00:04:14,215 --> 00:04:17,486 And when you say career-wise, you mean as a translator? 41 00:04:18,982 --> 00:04:20,056 writer. 42 00:04:21,063 --> 00:04:22,806 Ah, yeah, because that's the other thing. 43 00:04:22,806 --> 00:04:34,777 you know, you're, you're, that's, that's kind of like your real ambition is to eventually be spending most of your time writing. 44 00:04:34,777 --> 00:04:37,722 Yes, that would be the ideal, yeah. 45 00:04:38,653 --> 00:04:41,635 Are you gonna give up being a translator when you do that? 46 00:04:42,791 --> 00:04:45,933 I don't know if I would give it up because I like translating. 47 00:04:45,933 --> 00:04:56,760 uh Right now I am working with a colleague on a translation for a novel actually that we got commissions to do this and I actually enjoy the job. 48 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:09,318 I like working with language and it also gives me a chance you know to connect with other writers as well with the work of other people so I wouldn't be against continuing to do 49 00:05:09,318 --> 00:05:12,320 that sort of thing as well as being a writer. 50 00:05:13,938 --> 00:05:17,218 And what type of books are you writing? 51 00:05:18,239 --> 00:05:23,553 Right now I am working on a horror story compilation in fact 52 00:05:25,306 --> 00:05:28,313 Yeah, well, um I'm scared just thinking about it. 53 00:05:28,313 --> 00:05:30,697 uh 54 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:36,011 So what got you interested in that? 55 00:05:36,011 --> 00:05:43,586 you know, I know, actually, I know this, you've shared with this before, you know, so you're a fairly highly educated person. 56 00:05:43,586 --> 00:05:53,581 But by the way, you know, we, in the past, we've spent time together and you have translated for me in both Cordoba and in... 57 00:05:53,581 --> 00:05:54,441 uh 58 00:05:55,463 --> 00:05:56,920 In Commodore, yeah. 59 00:05:57,330 --> 00:06:03,364 Commodore, Commodore, I think the first time in Commodore, and they are, I can attest, they're very different places. 60 00:06:03,364 --> 00:06:09,597 Commodore is kind of one of these like at the edge of the world civilizations. 61 00:06:11,259 --> 00:06:20,965 And I found the people there uh very strong people, but understandably so, just the elements. 62 00:06:21,706 --> 00:06:24,717 And I think it's kind of oil country too. 63 00:06:24,717 --> 00:06:27,329 So, know, people go in there. 64 00:06:27,329 --> 00:06:39,114 know, mining for gold, so to speak, and trying to find their fortune in the edge of the world and probably sacrificing some things to do that. 65 00:06:39,114 --> 00:06:50,058 Because as you say, they don't have a lot of the comforts either in the weather or the culture there that they would get maybe from where they were from. 66 00:06:50,198 --> 00:06:55,780 So I found the people there to be very hardened people. 67 00:06:56,228 --> 00:06:56,782 Yes. 68 00:06:56,782 --> 00:07:03,586 but kind, but survive more like a survivor type of mentality. 69 00:07:03,807 --> 00:07:11,451 And then of course, Cordoba was a revelation to me. 70 00:07:11,532 --> 00:07:26,061 I really enjoyed that place a lot, like unlimited cultural opportunities, a beautiful place actually, beautiful part of the country and a livable place. 71 00:07:26,193 --> 00:07:31,973 and a lot of youthful energy there. 72 00:07:31,973 --> 00:07:35,833 I thought it was a very positive place to be. 73 00:07:37,593 --> 00:07:43,853 I mean, it's the kind of place I could see myself living in a place like Cordoba. 74 00:07:43,853 --> 00:07:49,333 I could not see myself living in a place like, what's the name of the other? 75 00:07:49,333 --> 00:07:52,893 always, Commodore, I always forget its name. 76 00:07:52,893 --> 00:07:55,953 I I love to go back to visit, but living there. 77 00:07:55,953 --> 00:07:58,993 Oh boy, that would be challenging. 78 00:08:02,913 --> 00:08:10,433 but you know, you were my translator, of course, Spanish is sufficient. 79 00:08:10,433 --> 00:08:18,953 I can speak Spanish, my Spanish, but I act stupid so that I get, I act like I'm stupid. 80 00:08:18,953 --> 00:08:24,624 So I have the pleasure to work with a translator like you and... 81 00:08:24,624 --> 00:08:29,504 have kind of like a comedy act team working. 82 00:08:29,724 --> 00:08:30,884 But it works. 83 00:08:31,024 --> 00:08:38,304 That chemistry works for me, but actually I'm perfectly fine teaching in Spanish when asked to do that. 84 00:08:39,064 --> 00:08:46,084 So, that was a gratuitous fortune that I got to spend time around you. 85 00:08:46,084 --> 00:08:53,393 And then, you know, at times you've shared with me about what you like writing about, what got you... 86 00:08:53,393 --> 00:08:56,104 Because that's not everybody's cup of tea. 87 00:08:56,104 --> 00:08:59,136 What got you interested in writing about horror? 88 00:08:59,136 --> 00:09:06,059 People would look at a guy like me and be going, am I even doing hanging around guys writing horror novels? 89 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,102 They have this preconception of how it's all going to be. 90 00:09:10,102 --> 00:09:12,463 But why don't you let people know? 91 00:09:12,463 --> 00:09:18,116 And I'm forgetting we're in a conversation, so we don't know there's other people listening to this. 92 00:09:18,116 --> 00:09:20,187 remind me, remind me. 93 00:09:20,187 --> 00:09:22,340 uh 94 00:09:22,340 --> 00:09:25,172 how you got your interest in horror writing. 95 00:09:25,208 --> 00:09:26,949 Well, it's kind of funny. 96 00:09:26,949 --> 00:09:29,649 There is a long history to that. 97 00:09:30,350 --> 00:09:35,712 You know, I was actually very easily scared as a child. 98 00:09:35,712 --> 00:09:44,495 um I was like, I couldn't contend with things like blood or gore or anything like that. 99 00:09:44,495 --> 00:09:47,496 Like it would terrify like the lights out of me. 100 00:09:47,496 --> 00:09:54,815 um But also at the same time, always 101 00:09:54,815 --> 00:10:04,252 Even as a young child, had an interest in monsters for whatever reason, know, like freaky creatures and that sort of thing. 102 00:10:04,252 --> 00:10:11,407 uh I have one particular memory that is strictly related to that, which is that I was very young. 103 00:10:11,407 --> 00:10:15,800 think I was like in primary school, six, seven years old or something like that. 104 00:10:16,241 --> 00:10:21,300 And we still had DVD clubs here in my city. 105 00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:30,809 So one of my uncles rented the original Ridley Scott Alien movie, the one with Sigourney Weaver, you probably know it. 106 00:10:30,890 --> 00:10:41,123 And I came walking into the room just as they were watching the scene where the alien comes out of John Hurt's chest. 107 00:10:41,123 --> 00:10:45,547 yeah, isn't that uh the name of the movie was Aliens, no? 108 00:10:45,547 --> 00:10:46,018 Alien. 109 00:10:46,018 --> 00:10:46,871 Yeah, exactly. 110 00:10:46,871 --> 00:10:47,742 And 111 00:10:48,728 --> 00:10:49,963 Yeah, I remember that scene. 112 00:10:49,963 --> 00:10:51,493 I remember that scene. 113 00:10:51,493 --> 00:10:52,753 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 114 00:10:52,753 --> 00:10:59,753 And you know, like the thing is that, you I was seven years old, I come into the room and I see this monster popping out of a guy's chest. 115 00:10:59,753 --> 00:11:02,113 And I had no idea that I was watching was fiction. 116 00:11:02,113 --> 00:11:05,113 Like it was perfectly real to me, you know? 117 00:11:05,253 --> 00:11:13,453 So I just ran crying into the room and my mom had to come and explain to me that, like it's a fictional thing. 118 00:11:13,453 --> 00:11:14,793 It's not a real monster. 119 00:11:14,793 --> 00:11:19,153 It's actually a puppet that someone is controlling. 120 00:11:20,108 --> 00:11:25,210 And when she explained that to me, I was like, what do you mean it's fake? 121 00:11:25,210 --> 00:11:27,451 How do they, how do they do that? 122 00:11:27,451 --> 00:11:30,472 You know, like how do they manage to make that? 123 00:11:31,113 --> 00:11:42,338 And that sort of sparked an interest in, in the, like the mechanics of scaring people in a way. 124 00:11:44,799 --> 00:11:46,480 mostly because 125 00:11:47,384 --> 00:12:02,428 On the one hand I find it psychologically interesting, know, like how How you can get someone just sort of sucked into an atmosphere and get them tense like that and also it's 126 00:12:02,428 --> 00:12:13,067 kind of the the fictional equivalent of going on a roller coaster ride, you know, it's exciting and People like excitement 127 00:12:13,393 --> 00:12:15,769 But horror is not actually the only thing I write. 128 00:12:15,769 --> 00:12:22,485 Like right now I'm focusing on a horror book, but it's not the only thing that I like writing. 129 00:12:24,184 --> 00:12:33,292 Yeah, but I'm, you know, and we'll get to the other stuff you're writing because I know it's not the only thing, but I have a particular fascination with your fascination with 130 00:12:33,292 --> 00:12:34,283 horror. 131 00:12:35,244 --> 00:12:48,577 And because, um you know, it's interesting because it's like, like, like what you were saying, I'm kind of like you were talking about, and I'll talk about it in a second when I 132 00:12:48,577 --> 00:12:49,217 was young. 133 00:12:49,217 --> 00:12:49,710 Yay! 134 00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:51,161 Okay, because I relate to that. 135 00:12:51,161 --> 00:12:52,571 really relate to what you're saying. 136 00:12:52,571 --> 00:13:03,675 So when you're saying you're seven or eight years old, and I think there's people who have to be listening in on this conversation on his podcast, right? 137 00:13:03,976 --> 00:13:13,059 That ah these kinds, these kinds of books and movies actually are wildly popular and they always have been. 138 00:13:13,139 --> 00:13:18,341 And it's always like kind of curious, like, like what is the 139 00:13:18,542 --> 00:13:33,262 attraction there because you would think that like the last thing in the world that people would want to voluntarily experience is terror. 140 00:13:33,702 --> 00:13:35,402 Like they're signing on volunteer. 141 00:13:35,402 --> 00:13:35,742 Yeah. 142 00:13:35,742 --> 00:13:35,982 Yeah. 143 00:13:35,982 --> 00:13:37,422 Please terrorize me. 144 00:13:37,422 --> 00:13:38,402 Scare me. 145 00:13:38,402 --> 00:13:39,202 Okay. 146 00:13:39,202 --> 00:13:48,037 So, so, you know, of course when you're younger or even as an adult, I think very few people like, um, like, uh, 147 00:13:49,143 --> 00:14:07,804 have enough care or self-awareness to actually think much about why am I attracted to something that I'm hoping will evoke some form of uh terror or fright? 148 00:14:07,804 --> 00:14:16,489 Because that's generally associated with emotional experiences that people seemingly would do anything to avoid. 149 00:14:16,565 --> 00:14:17,137 Yeah. 150 00:14:17,137 --> 00:14:30,381 And now they're like actually paying money in the hope that somebody is actually, and if it's a good book or a good movie, you know, in parentheses, it's good. 151 00:14:30,701 --> 00:14:36,422 It will have the ability to actually evoke that terror. 152 00:14:36,422 --> 00:14:40,964 And the most famous, like you're talking about aliens with Sigourney Weaver, right? 153 00:14:40,964 --> 00:14:43,034 So I remember that scene. 154 00:14:43,034 --> 00:14:45,933 That's a very famous scene, but that's the scene that 155 00:14:45,933 --> 00:14:49,655 you know, people like literally jumping out of their seats, right? 156 00:14:49,655 --> 00:14:50,936 And for good reason. 157 00:14:50,936 --> 00:15:00,841 mean, they would, okay, and if it was like happening at a restaurant in Midtown Manhattan, they would have a heart attack, you know? 158 00:15:00,841 --> 00:15:04,983 So, uh and most people wouldn't want to have a heart attack, right? 159 00:15:04,983 --> 00:15:10,265 So, ah what do you think the attraction is for that? 160 00:15:10,265 --> 00:15:15,565 And we were not getting like totally, you know, into philosophical or psychological, like, 161 00:15:15,565 --> 00:15:20,952 Just on a very simple level, what do you think the attraction is? 162 00:15:20,952 --> 00:15:28,031 Why would people be seeking out an emotional experience that you would think that they would do anything to avoid? 163 00:15:29,321 --> 00:15:36,843 I think that um there is a component of thrill-seeking there. 164 00:15:36,843 --> 00:15:37,783 There is that. 165 00:15:37,783 --> 00:15:48,956 Because um people, if they want to get scared, they want to do it in a way that feels safe. 166 00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:57,705 Because you go watch a horror movie, or you read a Stephen King novel or whatever, and it unsettles you, or it... 167 00:15:57,705 --> 00:16:12,229 it causes discomfort in you, but it does show in a way where you know you are not actually threatened by the experience, which is different from, for example, going out and climbing 168 00:16:12,229 --> 00:16:20,331 the Everest, which is also a thrill seeking behavior, but it's certainly much more threatening to your physical integrity to do that. 169 00:16:20,331 --> 00:16:21,291 Right. 170 00:16:21,331 --> 00:16:26,566 So I think there's a component of thrill seeking and also 171 00:16:26,566 --> 00:16:43,288 On a more profound level, although I don't really know if this applies to most people, but on a more profound level, I would also argue that horror as a genre of fiction is often 172 00:16:43,288 --> 00:16:50,594 transgressive in a way that other forms of art struggle to be. 173 00:16:50,594 --> 00:16:52,705 And I think that there is an appeal to that. 174 00:16:52,705 --> 00:16:54,258 It's certainly an appeal for me. 175 00:16:54,258 --> 00:16:56,928 mean by transgressive? 176 00:16:57,189 --> 00:17:00,130 Well, I'm going to give you an example. 177 00:17:00,130 --> 00:17:06,752 uh recently, this very year, this great movie by Ryan Coogler came out. 178 00:17:06,752 --> 00:17:08,429 It's called Sinners. 179 00:17:08,429 --> 00:17:09,812 is name of the movie. 180 00:17:10,453 --> 00:17:22,716 And the movie starts as a kind of historical drama about, you know, racial discrimination in the South in the early 20th century, you know, 181 00:17:23,425 --> 00:17:36,530 It has a lot to do with uh black American history and the development of the blues and how blues was a coping mechanism for black people and a way to create community. 182 00:17:36,990 --> 00:17:42,072 And then a bunch of vampires show up in the middle of the movie. 183 00:17:42,072 --> 00:17:52,926 ah And somehow Ryan Coogler actually manages to tie in the appearance of the vampires with concepts like 184 00:17:53,217 --> 00:18:07,323 uh cultural assimilation like the main vampire in the movie is essentially a stand-in and a symbol for cultural assimilation for the sake of survival for the idea of leaving behind 185 00:18:07,323 --> 00:18:14,205 your roots in order to survive in a culture that is not your own and the vampire kind of represents that. 186 00:18:14,746 --> 00:18:21,368 And the movie gets into all of these really fascinating historical and cultural points 187 00:18:23,827 --> 00:18:34,028 without moralizing about it because it doesn't moralize about it, it just kind of exposes you to these ideas and then goes, hey, this is a nice thing to think about, right? 188 00:18:34,548 --> 00:18:48,128 And I found it very rich on multiple levels because yeah, there is vampires and there's blood and there's people eating other people and whatever, but that's not the core of the 189 00:18:48,128 --> 00:18:48,348 movie. 190 00:18:48,348 --> 00:18:50,482 That is just basically 191 00:18:50,482 --> 00:18:58,555 a little spice on top of the meal, which is actually all of the social cultural stuff that's going on in the film. 192 00:18:58,555 --> 00:19:02,662 That is the actual uh big meal there. 193 00:19:04,435 --> 00:19:05,210 You 194 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,548 Okay, so that's an example of being transgressive. 195 00:19:12,707 --> 00:19:14,226 I would say so. 196 00:19:14,226 --> 00:19:16,035 I would say so. 197 00:19:17,036 --> 00:19:19,918 You know, it's interesting you kind of got me hooked on this. 198 00:19:20,758 --> 00:19:31,762 And I'm hoping our future conversations will be like this is like, we can just find ourselves in a place as tourists and accommodate ourselves to that place, you know, and 199 00:19:31,762 --> 00:19:33,253 visit it, take a visit there. 200 00:19:33,253 --> 00:19:44,893 I actually hope that our conversations go to some kind of uh sensitive areas, controversial areas. 201 00:19:44,893 --> 00:19:54,290 And I'd like to actually, like any good conversation, because I love, mean, there's nothing in life to me. 202 00:19:54,290 --> 00:19:56,793 You know, I've done everything, I really have. 203 00:19:59,226 --> 00:20:13,667 But at 73, which I am, I've actually run out of things that I wanted to do because I honestly could say I've done everything I've ever wanted to do plus, and 204 00:20:13,667 --> 00:20:20,402 There's really very little out there that either I haven't done and it's still interesting to do, you know? 205 00:20:20,402 --> 00:20:30,427 And so I'm hoping that, you know, we're kind of situated in different uh places in life, as far as time and space. 206 00:20:31,129 --> 00:20:42,157 And so, you know, to me, as I said, I, of all the, it's really odd, because it would sound like it's boring, but to me, 207 00:20:42,958 --> 00:20:55,548 of all the things I've done in my life, the thing that probably gives me more pleasure than anything, it doesn't matter including sex or whatever you wanna call it, the thing I 208 00:20:55,548 --> 00:21:02,954 get the most, actually the thing I get the most pure pleasure from in anything in life is a good conversation. 209 00:21:03,114 --> 00:21:05,186 I can say that without any hesitation. 210 00:21:05,186 --> 00:21:06,837 It's like, and you know what? 211 00:21:06,837 --> 00:21:11,341 It's like, give you an example, I mean, you know me, I mean, I love food, I'm a real foodie. 212 00:21:11,341 --> 00:21:12,221 oh 213 00:21:12,885 --> 00:21:22,003 And nothing actually tops having a great conversation in a great restaurant and having great food. 214 00:21:22,003 --> 00:21:24,374 There's nothing even close. 215 00:21:24,374 --> 00:21:41,668 mean, that's like pure nonstop pleasure, getting the opportunity to speak with a really interesting person and engage very deeply with that person, learn something from it, share 216 00:21:41,668 --> 00:21:42,648 something. 217 00:21:42,648 --> 00:21:45,340 and also share great food at the same time. 218 00:21:45,340 --> 00:21:51,585 That's like the best thing in the world. 219 00:21:53,407 --> 00:22:06,017 actually, you know what got me into, I'm diverging from the horror, which I wanna go back to, but it reminds me kind of uh circling back to how we are where we are today. 220 00:22:07,399 --> 00:22:10,001 Now, I saw a movie. 221 00:22:10,277 --> 00:22:11,817 because you're talking about movies here. 222 00:22:11,817 --> 00:22:22,257 I saw a and I think it was, I don't know the exact year, but it was in the early 80s, which, you know, now that's like 40 years ago. 223 00:22:22,257 --> 00:22:23,277 I can't believe it. 224 00:22:23,277 --> 00:22:29,257 You know, I can't believe that, you know, things I was doing, it's like 40 years later. 225 00:22:29,257 --> 00:22:30,537 How did that happen? 226 00:22:30,537 --> 00:22:35,237 So it's 40 years ago and there was a popular movie. 227 00:22:35,237 --> 00:22:37,110 It was an already kind of movie. 228 00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:37,541 Mm-hmm. 229 00:22:37,541 --> 00:22:42,364 I believe the name of the movie was My Conversation with Andre. 230 00:22:43,326 --> 00:22:58,027 And it was, the entire movie was a conversation between uh two men, uh middle-aged men, in a Manhattan, nice Manhattan restaurant. 231 00:22:58,027 --> 00:23:03,382 You know, the kind of, when I say a nice restaurant, to me, you know what a nice restaurant is to me? 232 00:23:03,382 --> 00:23:04,422 It's not even the food. 233 00:23:04,422 --> 00:23:07,062 uh A nice restaurant. 234 00:23:07,062 --> 00:23:15,609 is a restaurant that lets you spend the evening there speaking and is not looking to kick you out of your table. 235 00:23:15,609 --> 00:23:17,391 that's a nice restaurant. 236 00:23:17,391 --> 00:23:19,763 There is no pressure like we gotta get out of here. 237 00:23:19,763 --> 00:23:23,015 They need that table for the next customer. 238 00:23:23,015 --> 00:23:29,471 A nice restaurant is, you're comfortable just, that's actually your evening entertainment. 239 00:23:29,471 --> 00:23:32,244 It's not like what you do before you go to the movies. 240 00:23:32,244 --> 00:23:35,256 That is your night's entertainment, is. 241 00:23:35,301 --> 00:23:40,962 hanging with interesting people for the evening at that place. 242 00:23:41,002 --> 00:23:57,697 And you're spending, it's more expensive because you're paying for the privilege of sitting in a very nice place with usually very beautiful furniture and beautiful, it's 243 00:23:57,697 --> 00:24:04,128 very, everybody, it's a certain ambiance, okay, and the food is in accoutrement. 244 00:24:04,190 --> 00:24:09,164 And, but actually it's, the whole thing is really about the conversation. 245 00:24:09,505 --> 00:24:28,020 And so there was this movie called, I think it was My Conversation with Andre is that uh it was like a, between like a very sophisticated, um a self, not like arrogant, arrogant, 246 00:24:28,020 --> 00:24:33,156 but a person a little full with themselves, very successful. 247 00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:44,596 highly educated and comes off as being like, you know, above people, but not in like a super arrogant way, but a little condescending. 248 00:24:44,796 --> 00:24:57,531 And Andre, who happened to have dinner with this guy is actually not very sophisticated, not really highly educated, but... 249 00:24:57,685 --> 00:25:03,400 educated enough where he was probably like an accountant who made a decent living. 250 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:17,391 So he had an education, he had a job, he was a nine to five person, and he on the surface would seem to be not nearly as interesting as the guy who he was sitting opposite to who 251 00:25:17,391 --> 00:25:27,579 had traveled the world and had very interesting stories and seemed to be living like the but as it turned out in the movie, ah 252 00:25:27,896 --> 00:25:36,681 This guy Andre, who seemed to be very simple and unsophisticated, actually had a certain type of wisdom that the other person didn't have. 253 00:25:36,681 --> 00:25:48,648 And the other person, who seemed like they had everything, by the end of the movie, was really caught off guard in how uh unfulfilling their life was. 254 00:25:49,408 --> 00:25:54,241 And it was an interesting conversation between two men, and it took... 255 00:25:54,241 --> 00:25:56,763 It was interesting because the conversation was organic. 256 00:25:56,763 --> 00:26:08,323 It started off like one guy just sharing all the great experiences and the great life he has and the other guy not even knowing what to say because he felt he had very little to 257 00:26:08,323 --> 00:26:08,963 share. 258 00:26:08,963 --> 00:26:14,708 But by the end of dinner and you're going through like the appetizer, the main dish, the dessert, right? 259 00:26:14,708 --> 00:26:23,795 And by the time dessert is the whole thing kind of shifted is that the guy who seemingly had everything was feeling inadequate. 260 00:26:24,103 --> 00:26:31,786 And the guy who seemed like he had nothing seemed to have a very kind of uh realistic understanding about life. 261 00:26:31,966 --> 00:26:36,188 And the other guy could recognize this. 262 00:26:36,608 --> 00:26:44,181 And I don't know what it was, but I really connected with the movie and I was really into their conversation. 263 00:26:44,181 --> 00:26:53,845 And it got me into, later in life, unabashedly, me listening into conversations of other people in restaurants. 264 00:26:54,005 --> 00:27:06,661 And without any shame, without any shame, because I just, had this kind of interest in kind of like what was going on in these conversations, uh how people lie to each other, 265 00:27:06,802 --> 00:27:11,003 you know, the games they play, the interesting stories. 266 00:27:11,344 --> 00:27:20,228 And I got to the point that I was fine uh inviting people into my conversations so that they can either participate or just listen. 267 00:27:20,228 --> 00:27:22,169 I didn't have anything to hide. 268 00:27:22,269 --> 00:27:23,930 So, uh 269 00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:27,224 So anyhow, as I diverge... 270 00:27:29,434 --> 00:27:35,677 Uh, yeah, a good conversation is something that's going to give me pleasure and I'm going to learn something. 271 00:27:35,858 --> 00:27:43,672 And, ah and I like having conversations with people who don't have a lot in common with me because, uh, they may know something. 272 00:27:43,672 --> 00:27:51,466 I don't know if I, if I'm around people like myself, or I feel like I like myself, it's, it's nice, but I'm not going to learn anything new. 273 00:27:51,466 --> 00:27:55,929 So, I normally don't talk to, I'm coming full circle here. 274 00:27:55,929 --> 00:27:58,350 I, I normally don't have the pleasure of. 275 00:27:58,350 --> 00:27:59,130 uh 276 00:27:59,458 --> 00:28:11,681 uh speaking and listening about uh horror movies, because there's nobody in my day-to-day life who would talk about things like this other than you. 277 00:28:11,681 --> 00:28:19,423 ah But it's an interesting thing, because on some level, we all can relate to these things. 278 00:28:19,603 --> 00:28:27,295 I'm very, I think, you know me, I'm really interested in what make people tick. 279 00:28:27,408 --> 00:28:28,185 Yeah. 280 00:28:28,185 --> 00:28:36,708 on a psychological, theoretical thing, but what's behind people's, why do they do what they do? 281 00:28:36,708 --> 00:28:47,545 uh so we know that horror books and horror movies and all these things are very popular. 282 00:28:47,545 --> 00:28:55,073 Now, the two things that came to mind when you started talking about this was, 283 00:28:55,266 --> 00:29:02,986 One is that you kind of related it to thrill seeking. 284 00:29:03,866 --> 00:29:10,366 That you brought up thrill seeking, which I, it was interesting. 285 00:29:10,366 --> 00:29:17,466 Now you bring up two parts of my life when I was younger. 286 00:29:17,866 --> 00:29:23,406 The second part, like when I was in my 30s and 40s. 287 00:29:23,463 --> 00:29:34,040 I was, and even into my late 20s, I'd say from my middle 20s to my middle 40s, I'd say I was a thrill seeker. 288 00:29:34,441 --> 00:29:35,717 I climbed many mountains. 289 00:29:35,717 --> 00:29:37,213 I was an alpinist. 290 00:29:37,213 --> 00:29:40,545 I climbed all the tall mountains in the United States. 291 00:29:40,545 --> 00:29:45,448 uh I uh like motorcycles. 292 00:29:46,069 --> 00:29:49,191 And I liked bungee jumping. 293 00:29:49,191 --> 00:29:50,492 And I jumped out of planes. 294 00:29:50,492 --> 00:29:51,933 I jumped out of, you know, I. 295 00:29:52,107 --> 00:29:57,440 parachutes, parachutists, and the people around me thought I was crazy. 296 00:29:59,001 --> 00:30:12,979 But I just find interesting this parallel between horror movies and thrill seeking, and I never thought about it before, but they must share some common ground in your mind for you 297 00:30:12,979 --> 00:30:15,060 to have brought it into the conversation. 298 00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:19,943 Because people generally don't speak about them in the same breath, but you did. 299 00:30:20,386 --> 00:30:28,866 And so where do you think the parallel is between, and again, what exactly is thrill seeking? 300 00:30:28,866 --> 00:30:30,265 So to me. 301 00:30:32,606 --> 00:30:38,033 And you could call gambling thrill seeking. 302 00:30:38,403 --> 00:30:39,594 That's true. 303 00:30:39,594 --> 00:30:40,576 Yes. 304 00:30:41,441 --> 00:30:57,877 And because people are looking for some kind of experience, but I think that, and it'll come into other conversations of ours, is that, think that, and it was interesting, the 305 00:30:57,877 --> 00:31:02,328 other thing you said about people doing something that's safe. 306 00:31:02,468 --> 00:31:04,659 So it's almost like, 307 00:31:05,109 --> 00:31:12,005 And even the thrill seeking is like they're not jumping out of a plane without a parachute, they're jumping out of a plane with a parachute. 308 00:31:12,184 --> 00:31:12,967 Right. 309 00:31:13,597 --> 00:31:14,801 Okay, okay. 310 00:31:14,801 --> 00:31:19,803 So if they jumped out of a plane without a parachute, that would be real thrill seeking. 311 00:31:21,272 --> 00:31:23,510 The last real sickening you would ever do. 312 00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:24,149 Right. 313 00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:26,801 but that would be the ultimate thrill seeking, right? 314 00:31:26,801 --> 00:31:29,552 I mean, if you actually jumped out of a plane with, okay. 315 00:31:29,552 --> 00:31:45,251 so, um and then you can see that people who get into like gambling, they start getting, they start gambling more and more to get the same uh thrill because it's almost like they 316 00:31:45,251 --> 00:31:47,221 wanna be scared. 317 00:31:47,542 --> 00:31:51,164 And so it's almost like, 318 00:31:52,436 --> 00:31:54,057 without overanalyzing it too much. 319 00:31:54,057 --> 00:32:03,704 It's almost like people want to get close to death, but they're too scared to die. 320 00:32:04,285 --> 00:32:13,851 But they're not too scared to kind of try to get close to the fire without getting into the fire itself. 321 00:32:13,932 --> 00:32:19,476 But that there is something about them that's... 322 00:32:19,476 --> 00:32:20,376 uh 323 00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:43,907 intrigued with the idea of uh annihilation and the only thing that they think is available to them in life is some high risk uh activity that will put them in contact with this, but 324 00:32:43,907 --> 00:32:49,528 with some guardrails hoping that they're not actually going to annihilate. 325 00:32:50,298 --> 00:33:03,259 And the horror stuff, think is like, like you said, I don't think it's exactly the same, it's like, you really get down to like, what actually is the terror? 326 00:33:03,259 --> 00:33:19,081 What is the, I mean, I'm talking like, not the movie, like, or the book, but what is the feeling, like what is the terror of, even if they're knowing they're somehow protected? 327 00:33:19,081 --> 00:33:32,138 But in the end, ah which always brings in like religious and spiritual uh concepts is that ah ultimately people are afraid of dying. 328 00:33:32,398 --> 00:33:43,714 And so the most successful horror movies are not only, it's not only that people are gonna die, but they're gonna die in some horrific way. 329 00:33:43,714 --> 00:33:49,197 But they almost have to be shocked. 330 00:33:50,303 --> 00:34:01,108 to like some disturbing point to actually feel that kind of fear, but they wanna feel the fear that they're paying to get into the theater to feel that. 331 00:34:01,108 --> 00:34:04,329 it's, this is super interesting. 332 00:34:04,329 --> 00:34:11,973 yeah, so the two interesting things from my past is that, yes, I don't do that really anymore. 333 00:34:11,973 --> 00:34:13,013 I don't do that anymore. 334 00:34:13,013 --> 00:34:17,727 But there was a couple of decades that I... 335 00:34:17,727 --> 00:34:32,347 sort out experiences that would basically put me into like a death threatening, mean, I, you know, I'm volunteering to jump out of a plane. 336 00:34:32,347 --> 00:34:41,107 No, I'm volunteering, nobody's forcing me to climb a mountain on a rope in 20 below zero weather. 337 00:34:41,247 --> 00:34:43,747 I'm choosing to do that, okay? 338 00:34:43,747 --> 00:34:45,867 But for what purpose, you know? 339 00:34:45,867 --> 00:34:47,127 So, 340 00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:56,172 So I did, but I think that the other thing you said is that when I was seven and eight, I really liked the horror movies myself. 341 00:34:56,172 --> 00:34:59,573 And those were the only movies I had any interest in. 342 00:34:59,613 --> 00:35:03,834 And I remember having babysitters come over. 343 00:35:04,675 --> 00:35:08,356 And of course I was like, said my parents would be out. 344 00:35:08,576 --> 00:35:12,577 you know, I was the spoiled seven or eight year old son. 345 00:35:12,577 --> 00:35:16,808 You know, they're paying for a babysitter to basically watch over me. 346 00:35:16,808 --> 00:35:20,441 but it's still my house and I get to choose what's on the TV. 347 00:35:20,441 --> 00:35:23,813 So I get to choose horror movies, right? 348 00:35:23,813 --> 00:35:30,908 And I still remember the very first horror movie I ever saw. 349 00:35:31,369 --> 00:35:34,090 And it really fascinated me. 350 00:35:34,511 --> 00:35:44,558 And back then, the difference between the horror movies now and the horror movies back then is that it was much more difficult for them. 351 00:35:44,690 --> 00:35:48,792 to create like a believable scene. 352 00:35:49,592 --> 00:36:02,078 you, you, know what, the best, best analogy is like pro wrestling, you know, to me, is that, okay, okay, so everybody knows that it's not real. 353 00:36:02,078 --> 00:36:07,700 It's real, it is what it is, but everybody knows that the outcome is already decided. 354 00:36:07,801 --> 00:36:09,061 It's fixed. 355 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:10,082 yes. 356 00:36:11,067 --> 00:36:23,924 Yeah, but the people observing it, the people who are putting on the show, they're the actors, and the people who are in the theater or the stadium or the arena are willingly 357 00:36:23,924 --> 00:36:28,707 allowing themselves to believe something they know doesn't exist. 358 00:36:29,828 --> 00:36:39,245 because they, okay, and they're getting better and better at making that possible because it looks more more real. 359 00:36:39,505 --> 00:36:44,214 Okay, and it's that way in wrestling and it's that way in movies. 360 00:36:44,214 --> 00:36:48,951 Okay, so I remember seeing the attack of the 50 foot woman. 361 00:36:49,415 --> 00:36:51,629 Oh, that's an old school one! 362 00:36:51,629 --> 00:36:52,699 Right, right! 363 00:36:52,699 --> 00:36:58,275 That's right, well yeah, because I'm old. 364 00:36:58,275 --> 00:37:07,235 And I remember being seven or eight and willingly letting myself believe that this was actually true. 365 00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:14,862 You know, I was giving them permission to convince me that this was actually something that could actually happen. 366 00:37:15,463 --> 00:37:25,773 And I remember that, and actually I remember it was every Saturday night, and there was a TV series in black and white back then, right? 367 00:37:25,773 --> 00:37:28,174 It was called Chiller Theater. 368 00:37:29,016 --> 00:37:29,963 Right? 369 00:37:30,527 --> 00:37:36,892 And every Saturday night they'd have Dad or the Blob or these old classics. 370 00:37:36,892 --> 00:37:40,119 uh 371 00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:41,949 movies, that sort of thing. 372 00:37:43,740 --> 00:37:49,545 And as a young kid, these things gave me, ah you know, nightmares. 373 00:37:49,868 --> 00:37:50,802 Right. 374 00:37:51,307 --> 00:37:54,768 Yeah, but I was willing, I was like signing on for that. 375 00:37:55,688 --> 00:37:57,149 So it's really interesting. 376 00:37:57,149 --> 00:38:07,627 It's like, at seven and eight years old, why am I signing on to something that's gonna have me uh have a nightmare? 377 00:38:07,627 --> 00:38:11,743 I'm not trying to like overly analyze myself, but it's like super interesting. 378 00:38:11,743 --> 00:38:19,975 It's like, like, uh you know, it's like kind of like you said, like the human nature is like. 379 00:38:20,779 --> 00:38:30,384 You know, why would, I mean, you know, it's funny because you read in like the real news about, you know, terror attacks. 380 00:38:30,465 --> 00:38:36,388 And that's the thing that people are justifiably very spooked out about. 381 00:38:36,388 --> 00:38:48,715 It's like, I'm in an airport, there's gonna be a bomb, and they're really, I could be anywhere, and you know, yeah, but they'll pay money to go to a theater to watch somebody 382 00:38:48,715 --> 00:38:49,775 else get blown. 383 00:38:50,567 --> 00:38:52,735 Yeah, yeah, no, that's proof. 384 00:38:52,884 --> 00:39:07,732 Or they'll be on a plane and they're needing a drink because they're kind of scared that somehow the plane, I'm flying in this little object, 50,000 feet above the air and there's 385 00:39:07,732 --> 00:39:12,814 no protection and this plane could go, one engine and the whole thing could go down, right? 386 00:39:13,234 --> 00:39:20,598 But they'll pay money to watch a movie where somebody else's plane goes down. 387 00:39:20,658 --> 00:39:22,749 So it's kind of very odd. 388 00:39:22,895 --> 00:39:27,498 And watching that will trigger their own fears. 389 00:39:28,359 --> 00:39:42,417 And it's just so interesting about, to me, it's kind of going back to you saying like, where you got your interests, but I got my interest in that about the same age you did. 390 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:49,214 Well, you know, it's like uh I have worked with children as a teacher. 391 00:39:49,214 --> 00:39:56,038 I have worked a lot with kids throughout the years, both younger children and teenagers, early teenagers. 392 00:39:56,859 --> 00:40:06,285 And my experience has always been that for the most part, children love to get scared. 393 00:40:06,866 --> 00:40:13,270 And it's funny and it's also kind of weird because like uh 394 00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:19,054 You get all of these little munchkin kids, you know, who are like seven, eight years old. 395 00:40:19,495 --> 00:40:28,363 And, uh you know, like, for example, I do narrations of stories, you know, I like narrate horror stories that are events and things like that. 396 00:40:28,363 --> 00:40:39,061 And working at the Institute multiple times, I have kids coming up to me, like a little eight year old boy, like pulling on my shirt going like, hey, mister, when are you going 397 00:40:39,061 --> 00:40:40,933 to read us a post story? 398 00:40:40,933 --> 00:40:41,934 Or when are you going to tell us? 399 00:40:41,934 --> 00:40:42,537 uh 400 00:40:42,537 --> 00:40:49,362 like the Mask of the Red Death by Edgar Allan Poe, whatever, and this is like an eight year old making this request, right? 401 00:40:49,362 --> 00:41:09,246 um And it's funny because, you know, you could argue, you could argue that children haven't yet developed, you know, the sense of 402 00:41:09,524 --> 00:41:24,500 gravity that is often associated with things like death and horror and gore and whatever like like they like it doesn't have that much weight in their mind because they haven't 403 00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:28,032 been faced with those things in a more tangible manner. 404 00:41:28,032 --> 00:41:38,196 ah But then as you say, you got adults who are arguably more conscious of the world and how it works and all of the 405 00:41:38,196 --> 00:41:41,938 like the already scary things that happen in it. 406 00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:49,284 And as you say, they still want to go to a theater and pay to see Hereditary and get, you know, the crap scare out of them. 407 00:41:49,284 --> 00:41:58,550 So, I like, I don't know, I think it goes beyond any kind of uh rationality. 408 00:41:58,550 --> 00:42:06,886 Like, I don't think there is an explicitly rational or psychological explanation for probably even 409 00:42:06,886 --> 00:42:18,459 mental health professional came up here and and discuss this they could give us some sort of more empirical reason for this but to me it comes down to the fact that as you say as 410 00:42:18,459 --> 00:42:33,163 you say people want to have intense experiences they crave that they crave that because it's sort of a way of fighting against the dullness of mundane life 411 00:42:33,843 --> 00:42:39,268 But they want to do that in a way that doesn't actually threaten them. 412 00:42:39,268 --> 00:42:42,590 Like it's all a theater, very much. 413 00:42:43,667 --> 00:42:45,058 Yeah, but you know what? 414 00:42:45,058 --> 00:42:52,566 By the way, by the way, I mean, you could probably predict this and I already know what I'm going to do tonight, okay? 415 00:42:52,566 --> 00:42:56,059 But you know who my favorite author was as a kid. 416 00:42:57,447 --> 00:43:01,871 your favorite author as a kid- i don't remember sir you guys- 417 00:43:01,871 --> 00:43:03,265 school, my favorite author. 418 00:43:07,327 --> 00:43:08,335 By far. 419 00:43:09,725 --> 00:43:10,402 Who was it? 420 00:43:10,402 --> 00:43:12,032 No, I don't recollect. 421 00:43:12,401 --> 00:43:14,022 Edgar Allen Poe. 422 00:43:14,613 --> 00:43:16,198 you're a poll fan, right? 423 00:43:16,198 --> 00:43:17,691 Right, right, right. 424 00:43:17,797 --> 00:43:24,117 Absolutely Edgar Allan Poe and I remember The Raven, know, Nevermore, Nevermore, all that. 425 00:43:25,017 --> 00:43:39,257 And I'd be reading it and I felt like I was in a world by myself because I'd be telling friends or family about how great this was and people thought I was a very strange kid. 426 00:43:40,477 --> 00:43:45,517 And then of course when I was an adult I learned and... 427 00:43:45,873 --> 00:43:58,961 was not surprised that Edgar Allan Poe was absolutely insane and that he suffered from mental illness and uh alcoholism and all that. 428 00:43:58,961 --> 00:44:05,744 But that's not a surprise either, you know, but he's very talented. 429 00:44:06,145 --> 00:44:12,038 And it's kind of interesting that I was reading Edgar Allan Poe when I was in second and third grade. 430 00:44:12,368 --> 00:44:25,777 And I actually haven't picked it up since, but tonight I'm gonna go back and read it, because this conversation's kind of really kind of picked my interest in kind like the 431 00:44:25,777 --> 00:44:35,483 connection between, you know, people's kind of desire for that kind of feeling, like what's behind that. 432 00:44:35,663 --> 00:44:36,023 And... 433 00:44:36,023 --> 00:44:37,484 uh 434 00:44:37,684 --> 00:44:48,404 Without you know me I don't like to overanalyze things psychologically theoretically but but I I just want to like to get to some bottom line understanding of things and I think 435 00:44:48,404 --> 00:44:52,084 that's a really interesting why why. 436 00:44:52,084 --> 00:44:55,844 I remember one time you know I've got a sister you know. 437 00:44:56,344 --> 00:45:00,864 And I this is back when I was in like college or law school. 438 00:45:02,438 --> 00:45:08,491 And she came home one night and she, we were still living at home during the college breaks. 439 00:45:08,531 --> 00:45:12,573 And she looked seriously freaked out. 440 00:45:12,574 --> 00:45:14,815 Like seriously freaked out. 441 00:45:15,395 --> 00:45:18,557 And ah I mean like shaking. 442 00:45:19,077 --> 00:45:30,183 And I, you know, I wouldn't consider myself a very wise person at that stage of my life, but I could see that she was emotionally disturbed by something. 443 00:45:30,183 --> 00:45:31,664 And she was crying. 444 00:45:32,466 --> 00:45:33,576 So I'm going, what happened? 445 00:45:33,576 --> 00:45:38,718 She said, well, I just went with my friend to see the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. 446 00:45:39,699 --> 00:45:40,979 Which was a... 447 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,861 And it really... 448 00:45:44,861 --> 00:45:49,523 But it's not like she left the movie, she sat through the whole thing. 449 00:45:49,823 --> 00:45:52,004 So at some point she just... 450 00:45:52,204 --> 00:45:54,325 I mean, that's kind like the odd thing. 451 00:45:54,325 --> 00:46:02,118 And I even remember saying to her, well, if it was as bad as that, why did you stay till the end? 452 00:46:03,412 --> 00:46:16,232 Okay, and it was kind of like the answer was something at that stage in my life I couldn't wrap my head around was that she basically was saying that she couldn't, that she didn't 453 00:46:16,232 --> 00:46:17,672 have the ability. 454 00:46:18,352 --> 00:46:27,032 And so that kind of like, yeah, yeah, but I didn't have the self control to going, this is really not good. 455 00:46:27,032 --> 00:46:28,632 This is not affecting me badly. 456 00:46:28,632 --> 00:46:32,734 I gotta leave the theater for my own mental health. 457 00:46:32,734 --> 00:46:38,007 but she couldn't leave and by the end of the movie she's a mess. 458 00:46:38,108 --> 00:46:45,733 And chose to be a mess, just, or didn't have the self-discipline to get up and leave. 459 00:46:45,834 --> 00:46:57,282 so uh it's kind of just interesting the hole that this has over people and why they would subject themselves voluntarily to something. 460 00:46:57,282 --> 00:47:00,814 I mean, if it was in real life, I mean, it was kind of like. 461 00:47:00,884 --> 00:47:09,224 happening on a nearby neighborhood corner that somebody was tearing somebody's head off with chainsaw. 462 00:47:09,544 --> 00:47:17,124 People wouldn't be putting a chair down and eating popcorn to watch it, or maybe they would. 463 00:47:18,125 --> 00:47:23,385 Yeah, but people are very strange. 464 00:47:23,667 --> 00:47:41,623 You know, um like this is what you're saying here, um because I hate to be self-referential, but you know, in my case nowadays, I mostly don't watch horror movies 465 00:47:41,623 --> 00:47:47,978 for the thrill of it, because I've been kind of desensitized to them. 466 00:47:47,978 --> 00:47:50,110 Like it's very hard. 467 00:47:50,366 --> 00:47:53,748 uh to disturb me nowadays. 468 00:47:54,088 --> 00:48:02,013 can probably count the examples in one hand of the movies that have come out in the last 10 years that can actually disturb me for real. 469 00:48:02,013 --> 00:48:15,645 uh Nowadays, I mostly watch horror movies because I like engaging with all of the artistic trickery that goes into them. 470 00:48:15,645 --> 00:48:16,556 Uh-huh. 471 00:48:17,860 --> 00:48:26,776 I like looking at all the little resources, all of the little things they pull to actually create an atmosphere of fear. 472 00:48:26,776 --> 00:48:33,261 uh I love movies that use practical effects in particular instead of digital. 473 00:48:33,261 --> 00:48:36,463 love big monster puppets. 474 00:48:36,463 --> 00:48:37,864 I love that sort of thing. 475 00:48:37,864 --> 00:48:46,300 uh And I also do that because for my own work as a writer, 476 00:48:46,921 --> 00:48:51,122 I watch them not only as entertainment, also as a source of knowledge. 477 00:48:51,122 --> 00:48:54,093 I like to learn from them. 478 00:48:54,353 --> 00:48:58,574 So for me, it's not really any more like a thrill-seeking thing. 479 00:48:58,574 --> 00:49:07,916 It used to be when I was a kid, a teenager, but now for me, it's more about the artistic appreciation. 480 00:49:07,916 --> 00:49:15,938 I guess I kind of tend to watch horror movies in the same way that another person watches like a documentary, I guess. 481 00:49:17,043 --> 00:49:31,583 Well, do you think that's common among the people who are well known in that field that at a certain point they're just interested in what they can create rather than necessarily 482 00:49:31,583 --> 00:49:35,683 intending they're wanting to scare people? 483 00:49:36,383 --> 00:49:44,363 Or more is it that they get kind of desensitized to it and now they're into the art making of 484 00:49:44,990 --> 00:49:52,330 I think there is a good chunk of horror fans who are in the more of the art making aspect of it. 485 00:49:52,610 --> 00:50:10,190 I've been to many forums, subreddits, I've been to events and a lot of people are kind of intrigued with the mechanics of horror and there is a lot of artistry that goes into 486 00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:12,478 making an actually good horror movie. 487 00:50:12,478 --> 00:50:19,318 Like there is this film by this guy called Ari Aster that came out a few years ago. 488 00:50:19,318 --> 00:50:20,858 It's called Hereditary. 489 00:50:20,858 --> 00:50:22,958 It's a very intense horror movie. 490 00:50:22,958 --> 00:50:25,338 There's barely any gore or anything like that, actually. 491 00:50:25,338 --> 00:50:34,438 It doesn't have a lot of violence, but it's a very like a constant oppressive atmosphere throughout the whole entire thing. 492 00:50:34,478 --> 00:50:39,718 And he does a lot of things that are interesting as far as cinematography goes. 493 00:50:39,718 --> 00:50:41,326 He plays a lot with 494 00:50:41,326 --> 00:50:56,800 angles he plays a lot with the ways that lighting is set and it's all done with the express purpose of disturbing the viewer but there is a lot of work behind that like it's 495 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:06,577 it almost reminds me you know stanley cubrick the guy who made the shining right so it's it's that same kind of meticulous 496 00:51:06,577 --> 00:51:11,918 was just in, like two weeks ago, I was actually in the hotel that he filmed at. 497 00:51:12,335 --> 00:51:13,163 You kidding me? 498 00:51:13,163 --> 00:51:15,387 You went to the Overlook Hotel? 499 00:51:16,228 --> 00:51:18,591 No, it's there's no such thing as the Overlook Hotel. 500 00:51:18,591 --> 00:51:20,602 It's the Timberline Lodge. 501 00:51:21,984 --> 00:51:24,246 Yeah, it was just in that two weeks ago. 502 00:51:25,031 --> 00:51:26,834 There you go, and how was it? 503 00:51:26,834 --> 00:51:29,295 Oh, I've been there many times. 504 00:51:29,295 --> 00:51:30,656 It's in Oregon. 505 00:51:30,696 --> 00:51:33,958 you know, spent a lot of my life in Oregon. 506 00:51:33,958 --> 00:51:37,020 So uh it's a beautiful place. 507 00:51:37,020 --> 00:51:38,640 It's up on Mount Hood. 508 00:51:38,981 --> 00:51:40,942 And you get this fantastic view. 509 00:51:40,942 --> 00:51:42,343 I'll send you pictures. 510 00:51:42,343 --> 00:51:48,906 uh I'll send you pictures of the real Overlook Hotel and the views from it. 511 00:51:50,459 --> 00:51:51,910 Yeah, it's really beautiful place. 512 00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:55,352 And you know, I can understand why that was with Jack Nicholson, right? 513 00:51:55,352 --> 00:51:58,052 So that's, uh yeah. 514 00:51:58,052 --> 00:52:02,564 So yeah, I've been up there many, many times. 515 00:52:02,564 --> 00:52:04,406 So it's a real beautiful place. 516 00:52:04,406 --> 00:52:06,018 Yeah, I think so. 517 00:52:06,018 --> 00:52:12,423 So about horror, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the next conversation, but it's some conversation. 518 00:52:13,083 --> 00:52:27,807 and you're the expert in this more than me, is that it's a really fascinating subject about horror and people seeking out terror voluntarily. 519 00:52:27,987 --> 00:52:42,191 And so I'm kind of interested in maybe a future conversation, really kind of understanding whether 520 00:52:43,057 --> 00:52:46,589 And you're saying it's human nature for people to seek this out. 521 00:52:46,589 --> 00:52:53,673 Okay, so let's assume that not everybody, but large numbers of people seek this out. 522 00:52:54,593 --> 00:53:01,457 And the question is, like anything, I mean, you can talk about anything in life, okay? 523 00:53:01,457 --> 00:53:12,453 ah The things that doctors recommend and things doctors don't recommend, do whatever, but any human activity, it's kind of like, 524 00:53:12,611 --> 00:53:14,132 Is it therapeutic? 525 00:53:14,132 --> 00:53:18,193 Is it on some level naturally therapeutic? 526 00:53:18,193 --> 00:53:20,414 Is it actually helpful? 527 00:53:20,975 --> 00:53:24,276 Or is it inherently dangerous? 528 00:53:24,636 --> 00:53:28,077 Or is it some combination of the both? 529 00:53:28,077 --> 00:53:36,941 But if it's a combination of both, what type of self uh restraint and self discipline would be involved? 530 00:53:36,941 --> 00:53:41,487 ah Because I think those are really interesting issues because 531 00:53:41,487 --> 00:53:47,879 Ultimately, issue is what's the effect of this on human beings? 532 00:53:48,927 --> 00:54:04,587 I would argue that for a good number of people who seek out this kind of thing, there is an element of catharsis to watching a horror movie or experiencing a horror narrative 533 00:54:04,587 --> 00:54:18,447 because most of the time, or yeah, I would argue that most of the time, even if people die unhorribly throughout the narrative, 534 00:54:19,630 --> 00:54:24,132 there is generally someone who makes it at the end. 535 00:54:24,512 --> 00:54:35,577 is usually like uh in slasher films like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre which you mentioned or the Friday the 13th movies or the Nightmare on Elm Street ones there is this cliche 536 00:54:35,577 --> 00:54:44,507 which is the idea of the final girl is what it's called like that's how they know the final girl which is like usually a lady who gets to the end of the movie 537 00:54:44,507 --> 00:54:53,183 and actually manages to defeat the monster by using her smarts and her, you know, relentless will to survive. 538 00:54:53,264 --> 00:55:07,074 And that's what usually the cathartic component of this kind of story comes into play, which is having someone who actually survives the horrific situation and manages to 539 00:55:07,074 --> 00:55:10,076 triumph over the monster. 540 00:55:10,101 --> 00:55:16,935 regardless of the circumstances and that has a very big cathartic component for audiences. 541 00:55:18,255 --> 00:55:31,129 No, one reason I'm asking, you know, from some of our time together is that you've not only been a translated for me and me giving public addresses and classes, but probably 542 00:55:31,129 --> 00:55:39,151 even more importantly, you've been a translated for me and giving personal consultations with people about stuff going on in their life. 543 00:55:39,151 --> 00:55:45,593 And so the interesting thing is, you know that I'll use anything. 544 00:55:46,190 --> 00:56:01,104 at my disposal at any given moment, even if it doesn't seem at times appropriate or doesn't seem logical, but somehow I go, hey, how about throwing this in here? 545 00:56:01,104 --> 00:56:13,347 And I guess the interesting thing for me to learn from you, and it doesn't have to be today, but in the future, maybe you give us some thought, is that 546 00:56:14,509 --> 00:56:36,172 If there is something that consciously or unconsciously has led you to this and is somehow been helpful to you or others, there may be an instance that I, if I was as tied into it 547 00:56:36,172 --> 00:56:42,647 and knowledgeable about it as somebody like you, that maybe even I would. 548 00:56:42,833 --> 00:56:50,113 actually have somebody dip into that because it would be in their interest to do that. 549 00:56:50,113 --> 00:56:55,093 And I'd be like the last person in the world they think would recommend that. 550 00:56:55,253 --> 00:57:01,453 But, you know, it doesn't matter because there's always something for every situation. 551 00:57:01,813 --> 00:57:12,313 And the thing is, is that, I mean, I guess this is where all these conversations will go in time, is that ultimately, 552 00:57:13,275 --> 00:57:27,356 To me, this is my personal opinion, the only thing of value that we do in the world is things that will be of help to other people. 553 00:57:27,356 --> 00:57:37,543 And I'm not saying that I don't deserve to have a pleasure in my life because I do. 554 00:57:38,805 --> 00:57:41,306 But that doesn't give my life meaning. 555 00:57:43,118 --> 00:57:46,691 The fact that I'm going out, I'm gonna enjoy the beach today, that's great. 556 00:57:46,691 --> 00:57:54,037 I'm not gonna deny myself the pleasure, you know, of running into the ocean and seeing the seagulls. 557 00:57:54,037 --> 00:57:54,878 fine. 558 00:57:54,878 --> 00:58:04,875 Okay, ah and I do that for myself and my pleasure, and that's fine, but it doesn't add any tremendous meaning to my life. 559 00:58:04,875 --> 00:58:11,111 The meaning to my life comes from anything I do that basically adds value to other people's lives. 560 00:58:11,111 --> 00:58:12,591 That's what I've learned. 561 00:58:13,944 --> 00:58:16,865 And that can happen in one of a million ways, okay? 562 00:58:16,865 --> 00:58:21,297 So the thing is, that uh I'm fine with anything. 563 00:58:21,297 --> 00:58:26,769 I'm fine with horror movies, okay? 564 00:58:27,470 --> 00:58:35,573 And I'm fine with putting people in contact with the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, if necessary. 565 00:58:36,433 --> 00:58:43,820 If in some way for some particular person, that would be helpful, okay? 566 00:58:43,820 --> 00:58:58,030 And I'm not excluding that possibility because I'm pleading ignorance here is that one the things I got out of this conversation, which is always the bottom line for me is like, ah 567 00:58:58,030 --> 00:59:04,775 I'm really interested in human nature and I'm interested in playing in the game of human nature, okay? 568 00:59:04,775 --> 00:59:13,040 And so I think we've, we're not talking so much about horror as we are human nature and that's 569 00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:18,780 that's an element of human nature that people don't usually talk about this openly. 570 00:59:19,380 --> 00:59:23,460 And I think it's an interesting subject to talk about. 571 00:59:23,460 --> 00:59:30,980 And you can see even in my own life, mean, as a kid I was reading Edgar Allan Poe and watching the attack of the 50 foot woman. 572 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,740 And so it's not like it's not in the fabric of my life. 573 00:59:34,740 --> 00:59:37,340 Of course it's in the fabric of my life. 574 00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,879 But it's interesting to understand, okay. 575 00:59:40,441 --> 00:59:49,796 how can I take that experience and knowledge to basically help other people in their life? 576 00:59:49,836 --> 01:00:03,723 that's, and so basically if it has any therapeutic value to it, okay, I'm not like crazy for the word therapeutic, that's kind of another thing, but let's just say, if somehow 577 01:00:04,424 --> 01:00:10,187 putting some particular person in contact with that experience, 578 01:00:10,607 --> 01:00:15,847 will help them move forward in their life, I'm more than open to doing that. 579 01:00:15,847 --> 01:00:28,107 But if putting people in contact with that is 100 % of the time unhealthy mentally and emotionally, then I won't do that. 580 01:00:28,227 --> 01:00:29,307 Oh, I won't do that. 581 01:00:29,307 --> 01:00:36,427 But I'm more interested in what the possibilities are than just closing the door on something. 582 01:00:37,047 --> 01:00:40,103 I have an open mind about 583 01:00:40,917 --> 01:00:53,362 It's not anything I've done recently, but you kind of really picked my interest in this, picked my interest in why I was attracted to it as a child, why I was a thrill seeker as a 584 01:00:53,362 --> 01:00:54,672 young adult. 585 01:00:54,672 --> 01:01:00,355 How that ties into my life today, that's a value. 586 01:01:00,355 --> 01:01:09,838 and what I can do with that information to be of help to other people in some way, but I'd have to have... 587 01:01:10,318 --> 01:01:18,398 deeper understanding of it and you're a person who does, you know, so you're a very good resource for this. 588 01:01:19,198 --> 01:01:20,898 So, anyhow, we'll continue. 589 01:01:20,898 --> 01:01:27,618 You know, we're going to try to keep these things to an hour because we could talk for five hours, obviously, on these things. 590 01:01:28,418 --> 01:01:29,638 It's too interesting. 591 01:01:29,638 --> 01:01:38,498 You see why tech gets so much pleasure out of these conversations, but this was like one of the best conversations I've had in a long time. 592 01:01:38,558 --> 01:01:42,040 So I really am grateful. 593 01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,432 I mean, normally I don't talk about this shit, you know? 594 01:01:45,432 --> 01:01:48,433 And so it's great. 595 01:01:48,433 --> 01:01:50,841 And I'm hoping this is what it'll be. 596 01:01:50,841 --> 01:02:01,710 You know, we can talk once a week and we can forget that we even have an audience and we can talk about whatever we want to talk about because it's all good. 597 01:02:01,991 --> 01:02:03,762 I mean, there's nothing that's not good. 598 01:02:03,762 --> 01:02:04,972 It's all good. 599 01:02:05,313 --> 01:02:07,754 And it's all good if we can like... 600 01:02:07,754 --> 01:02:08,614 uh 601 01:02:09,294 --> 01:02:14,194 come out of it with a better understanding of ourselves and the people around us. 602 01:02:14,314 --> 01:02:16,194 And so we can be of help. 603 01:02:16,194 --> 01:02:18,594 So it doesn't matter why it gets us there. 604 01:02:18,814 --> 01:02:25,874 I remember when you originally told me about your love for writing horror books and things like this kind of thing. 605 01:02:25,874 --> 01:02:28,874 And my only reaction to that was, that's interesting. 606 01:02:28,874 --> 01:02:30,634 I want to find out more about that. 607 01:02:30,634 --> 01:02:30,974 That's all. 608 01:02:30,974 --> 01:02:36,438 was like 100 % my reaction is that, wow, that's, I don't know anybody. 609 01:02:36,438 --> 01:02:37,769 I know people doing a lot of stuff. 610 01:02:37,769 --> 01:02:43,503 You're the first person I personally have met who is dedicated to it like that. 611 01:02:43,503 --> 01:02:51,208 So you're my doorway to understanding something that uh I wouldn't know about otherwise. 612 01:02:51,809 --> 01:03:00,314 And um maybe even out of it, you'll even get to love it more and have even a deeper understanding of it. 613 01:03:00,675 --> 01:03:03,136 So um it's all good. 614 01:03:03,136 --> 01:03:03,667 It's all good. 615 01:03:03,667 --> 01:03:05,958 know, um 616 01:03:06,232 --> 01:03:09,767 We'll talk about whatever we're gonna talk about. 617 01:03:10,509 --> 01:03:19,592 I know this next week I got a lot of stuff on my table that's gonna be worth talking about, that's usually what we'll be talking about, what's just going on in our lives. 618 01:03:19,592 --> 01:03:22,366 And today was about horror. 619 01:03:23,550 --> 01:03:25,232 yeah, excellent. 620 01:03:25,232 --> 01:03:35,592 But I will say just wrapping up that thanks, thanks to everyone who took the time to sit in on our conversation. 621 01:03:35,592 --> 01:03:41,220 And we hope it was entertaining and informative and we're hoping to. 622 01:03:41,344 --> 01:03:46,209 talk about all kinds of things that you wouldn't expect us to talk about. 623 01:03:46,209 --> 01:03:54,856 And we really appreciate you spending this time with us, and we'll see you soon. 624 01:03:55,545 --> 01:03:59,583 We'll see everyone soon and thank you everyone for being here with us.