jethro_1_06-18-2025_121340: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
Welcome to Transformative Principal.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones, and I gotta tell you, you're in for a treat.
Today.
We're doing something a little bit different.
As you know, I like to do things a little bit different.
We're gonna listen in on a great conversation between Dr. Aaron Bailey, the Vice President of Literacy Programs and Research at Reading is Fundamental, and Barb Sol the nami National Director of Innovation.
Now, naomi is the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and they're doing some great work, but what's really amazing is that between these two organizations, uh, Macy's has come to connect them and Macy's, you know, the store where you buy nice stuff, nice clothes, uh, they've partnered with Reading is Fundamental and the National Alliance on Mental Illness for a campaign.
That will help students head back to school with confidence providing books and mental health resources to children nationwide.
So now when you're listening to this through September 14th, you can round up your Macy's purchase in store to help reading as fundamental ensure that every child has the opportunity to literacy provides.
But here's the other thing.
What these two ladies talk about is the power of connection and how reading helps that connection, which in turn helps mental health, which I think is so powerful.
So.
I am excited for you to chat or to listen to this chat between these two amazing women and hear what they have to say about literacy and about mental health in the United States right now.
With that, let's get into this conversation between Barb Solich from National Alliance on Mental Illness and Aaron Bailey from Reading as Fundamental about literacy and mental health together as one.
Here we go.
Alright, to start, Aaron is gonna ask Barb a question so you could start orienting their voices because you know you can't see 'em.
'cause this is an audio only podcast.
So here they are chatting.
I'll turn it over to them.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Hey Barb.
Great to be chatting with you today.
Can you share about the mental health crisis in America and specifically how does it impact young people?
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: Yeah, it's such a big question.
I mean, I think we are absolutely.
Facing a youth mental health crisis.
I think it's a headline that we see over and over, and it sometimes we can become desensitized to it a little bit, but it's also something that families, teachers, communities, are seeing and grappling with every day, um, in real life.
I think some people are surprised to learn that actually 50% of all mental health conditions start by age 14.
Um, so it starts young and 75% by age 25.
early intervention is really critical and it creates such different outcomes for people when they get the help they deserve early on.
Um, but the truth is that while millions and millions of kids in the US are experiencing a mental health condition every year, we also know that over 50% of them are not getting the treatment they deserve.
Um, and those rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts among kids and teens, they are going up and up over the past decade, um, though we've known this has been happening for a long time, the pandemic really accelerated things, um, in part by disrupting routines.
Support systems, school, a sense of safety for so many young people.
And I think, you know, it's been said many times, but the kids are not all right and we owe it to them to do something about it.
And I think our organizations are really aligned in helping kids.
So, um, I'll actually just turn this back around on you.
Can you talk a little bit, um, about the literacy crisis?
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Sure.
Um, yeah, so similarly when we hear the term literacy crisis, just like mental health crisis, it's multi multilayered, multifaceted.
Um, so when we typically talk about the literacy crisis, it's about literacy rates.
Um, and we measure those typically by NA scores.
NA is the National Association of Education Progress, or you might hear it as the nation's report card.
They do testing every couple years.
Um, and the most recent, uh, findings were that 69, uh, percent of fourth graders were reading below.
level.
So a lot of times when we hear crisis, that's it.
We have 69% of fourth graders, that's 25 million children, um, that aren't reading at grade level.
Um, and you know, what does that mean for us as society?
Well, I. For fourth graders, similar to how, Mo, what you were saying, like mental health, it mostly starts by age 14.
Very similarly, the trajectory for you, if you're not reading at grade level by fourth grade, you're four times more likely to drop out of high school.
Um, and then two thirds of people who cannot read proficiently by fourth grade end up either on welfare or in the prison system.
In this country.
Um.
then additionally, on top of that, it, there's economic implications of course.
Um, so if 20% of adults who aren't reading proficiently aren't able to live to earn a living wage, um, so that's typically how we think of it in terms of like.
What is the reading rates in terms of proficiency for fourth graders, eighth graders, and what does that mean for their educational career?
Um, for their, for their, um, career outside of school and for the, uh, impact on society?
Um, I tend to look at also what kids are reading for fun, because reading is fundamental.
We're all about the joy of reading.
We strongly believe that joy and motivation, um, makes kids wanna keep reading and then wanting to read.
You read more and more, and then your proficiency levels, uh, go up.
So we're all about joy.
Um, that being said, there's a crisis there too.
Uh, I think I've shared this, uh, on other podcasts before with you, Jethro, that 14 uh, percent of 13 year olds.
Report reading for fun every day.
It's such a small, um, amount, and that's 3% lower than 2020.
That's just the most recent scores in 2023.
Um, so overall, uh, students are reporting less and less that they read for fun.
Um, recent reports have also shown that Gen Z parents are also seeing, saying that they don't read to their children because they don't see it as, um, being fun.
So that's what I mean is that you can look at the literacy crisis from a lot of different angles, um, and see that yeah, it's a multifaceted issue in our country.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: Wow, that is, those numbers are so stark and so interesting, and I. And I hadn't thought about the fun aspect of, obviously talking about reading is fundamental.
It makes a, it makes a lot of sense.
Um, you know, we see some of those similar numbers.
High school students with significant depression are more than twice as likely to drop out compared to their peers.
And, um, if a student age six to 17 is what we measure, has serious mental health concerns there.
Three times more likely to repeat a grade.
So we're facing these challenges that are so aligned and I think that, um.
missions are really strong and I'm so grateful that Macy's connected us.
Um, so that we can com combine, combine our powers for good and to, you know, help nurture strong and resilient kids.
I think when we talk about investing in.
Children and their minds.
It's not just reading or writing, it's also emotional support, and that sets them up for success in school and and in life.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Absolutely.
So are there some tools that you typically recommend for families or teachers, school personnel as they're supporting children's mental health?
I.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: Yeah, so we've got a lot.
Um, NAMI is the National Anti Mental Illness.
Um, we've got, um, over 650 state organizations and affiliates across the country who are doing support advocacy education.
in their communities on the ground, and a lot of it is focused around early intervention and for, for kids and also supporting, the, um, the supportive adults in their lives.
So that's educators and parents.
Like you're, like you're talking about.
And so.
One of the things I think I hear a lot is I, I, as an adult, don't feel equipped to handle these kinds of questions.
I'm an educator, I'm a teacher, I'm a math teacher.
I'm not, uh, I'm not a school psychologist.
Well, the the truth is, is these kids are coming to class as they are, and the likelihood is you are a supportive adult in their life and you are having impact.
Um.
So why not?
Um, you know, help yourself and get yourself some support.
And that's what we are here for.
We have a ton of resources at nami.org/back to school, um, to questions to ask in class.
Great.
We have a, a mental health classroom contract, which is we talk to each other throughout class.
We, we, um, you know, we communicate our emotions.
Um.
And, and so much more mindfulness, exer exercises.
We also, um, have a coloring and activity book for kids, uh, starting age three called Meet Little Monster.
It's completely free.
It's available in six languages on our website.
Um, and it basically takes you, a young child with an adult through managing, understanding, identifying and managing emotions and.
And what's so great about it is that it's fun.
Um, it's a coloring book, mo, little monster is adorable.
Um, but you're learning while you go and you're doing it with an adult.
So I think there's just a lot of different ways, um, adults and, um, educators, parents, you know, anybody who is supporting a child can, um, can get the support that they need.
To help kids.
Um, we also have a lot of conversation starters.
I think that's a big one.
Um, not only starting the conversation, but also recognizing signs.
So a lot of people get concerned.
They say, well, is this a stage?
Is this just like what a kid is going through?
And I'm, I don't know when something is more serious.
Um, we have a lot of resources on our website about that, but, but the big overall picture, I would say is.
To notice changes over a a significant period of time.
So if a child is not sleeping for two weeks or more, or they are complaining of belly aches, they're coming home from school a lot, but they're not necessarily physically ill, that might be a manifestation of something else going on.
So knowing what to look for and then how to start those conversations.
I'm rambling a little bit, but one of the best ways to start a conversation is before you've noticed anything.
So when you know, having, you pick your kid up from school, um, asking questions, gets the conversation going.
In the, in the backseat of the car, there's something about, uh, not being across, looking at a cross, uh, from a kid.
Like being side by side.
You can't see me doing this, I'm listeners.
But if you're next to someone, like on a bench or in a car, it is a much more comfortable space to start asking those questions about mental health and about, um, concerns you might be having.
It's just a little less intense.
Uh, so getting those conversations started early, and I think with books it marks you.
If you're reading aloud to your child, it marks you as.
Reading a lot of books that, that are array of different topics, covering a lot of different issues from different perspectives that marks you as somebody that they can come and talk to about anything.
I'm curious from, from you, you know, what impact does, uh, an adult reading aloud to a child have?
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Yeah.
I love that.
Um, and I think you made an excellent point that though, 'cause I, I was a teacher for a long time, even though as a teacher, um, you might think my role is to teach reading or my role is to teach science.
Um, it's really a lot different than that when you put on a teacher's hat, well, you wear many hats as a teacher.
Um, you, you do become.
A safe adult for a child.
And I love that simple tip of just sitting next to someone side by side.
I've heard a lot about, um, making eye level with a child.
So especially a child who's shorter than you, getting down eye level.
And I, but I never thought about sitting.
I. Um, side by side, which is a great way to, um, read books with children.
So thank you for that.
But yeah, reading aloud to Children is a great way, um, to begin conversations about mental health for a variety of reasons.
I will say, first of all, if as a teacher reading aloud to a class, um, I think it fights stigma.
Um.
I have this, uh, phrase that I've used before, uh, with kids.
Na, uh, name it to tame it.
Um, if you can put a name to something, it often helps, uh, you to identify with it and overcome it or work with it.
Um, and you know, I have a lot of great books that I can recommend.
I'll share a few.
We also have, uh, uh, reading is Fundamental, has a wellbeing, um, center.
On our website where we have a ton of books and resources, just like what you were me, uh, mentioning.
So we have read aloud guides, we have curated book collections that can support, uh, teachers reading aloud about mental health and wellbeing.
Um, but one that comes to mind is, um, think thinking about naming things is this, uh, book.
It's a newer book.
It's called How to Train Your Amygdala.
Um.
amygdala is a fun word to say, um, for, for kids, but it's also a, a part of your brain.
It's that like fear center of your brain or that fight or flight part of your brain.
And I love this story because the book kind of personifies the amygdala and throughout the story, um, these children are kind of going on an adventure with the amygdala, um, to, to try to, uh.
Teach the amygdala how to calm down.
And the book goes through a lot like you were talking about, um, mindfulness.
It goes through a lot of different strategies.
So it's fun.
Um, it brings it to life for the kids.
It gives a name to something and it gives them some strategies.
And I actually, so kids can do that through reading books.
They can also do it through writing.
Um, I had, when I taught, first grade, I had a young student with OCD.
Um, and her mom and I were, or her parents and I were working, um, together, you know, in constant communication of how to support her at school.
Um, but one day just in writer's workshop, she wrote this wonderful story and, and I've held onto it all these, uh, years 'cause it was so brilliant where she.
Created her OCD as a character in the story.
So I think for her it was like taking that as a part of her, making it a separate part of her, giving it a name.
And the whole book was actually teaching her classmates about this, I'll call it a character of OCD and how they can help her, um, with her OCD very much in the same way the author of the, uh, amygdala book did it, and it, and it was just so brilliant.
So kids can do this through reading aloud.
Or through writing their own stories,
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: That is so incredible.
And what age was this child, did you say?
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: like six years old.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: Wow, that's a wow.
Um, I mean, name entertainment, that and that.
I love that, first of all.
And it does, you know, bring up that things start before age 14,
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: people are not thinking about six year olds.
Um, with some of these conditions or facing some of these challenges and for, for this child to have an educator like you so helpful is just, that's a lucky kid.
And we, we, um, are so grateful for educators out there who understand the impact that mental health.
Has, um, on children and, and, and how it manifests in different ways and how they can be creative in different ways.
Like you said, like some may read, some may write, some may draw.
Um, and understanding all of the, the pieces together is really, really interesting.
Um, so I, I really love that, that story.
I think there's a lot more, um.
out there, and I mean like four kids literature, not, uh, not studies literature, but, uh, that addresses mental health and, um, identifying emotions because like you said, name entertainment.
We, we actually, as I mentioned, we have a lot of affiliates across the country.
So it's, it's, we're NAMI National, but we have, you know, nami, Los Angeles, west Side, you know, those example.
Um, and.
did a survey to ask, what are schools asking you?
Local nami, so NAMI dc What are the folks in DC asking you to come talk to your kid, to the their kids about?
And um, it was all about identifying emotions and coping skills.
I mean, it was just, that was the resounding, um, theme that we got.
Um, especially for those under the age of 14.
When you get into middle school and high school.
We're talking a little bit more about what we call mental health literacy.
Um, so really combining our, our missions here, um, and mental health literacy is understanding what mental health conditions are and aren't.
So a little bit more of the like.
Health education piece of it, um, which I also think is really important and can be so well supplemented by story and storytelling.
Um, yeah.
NAMI actually has a. High, middle and high school program where we come into classrooms and we do sort of like a mental health 1 0 1 basics, but we always bring in a young adult presenter who's experienced a mental health concern while they were in middle or high school, and they tell their story.
They say what happened?
Um, what helped, and where am I now?
And while it's very important that they get all the mental health 1 0 1 information.
Always, always, always, we hear, thank you for sharing your story.
It made me feel like I could speak up and that I'm not alone.
So I think first person storytelling is so important too.
Um, I just, there's, there's so much power in going beyond the stats and the numbers that we both talked about at the, at the top, you know.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Yes, and I, I, and both children's literature, but also as you mentioned, the literature, I am a researcher myself, so the stats, um, speak to me and I, you know, I just.
Read everything I can get my hands on, uh, around the importance of reading aloud to your children, um, reading with children and, and mental well wellbeing.
So, um, I love it.
I can't get enough of it.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: So how does you know a parent reading to a child at home support their mental health from your perspective?
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Ooh.
Um, great question.
So this is something I'm getting more and more into actually, especially 'cause I have three young children myself.
One of which is, uh, an infant, um, is about mothers reading aloud to their children.
Um, and how that not only supports.
The mental wellbeing of the child and their literacy development and their language development.
But it actually supports the mother too.
So I was just reading this the other day.
There's a small, it's, it's a small study.
Um, but there was a student, uh, Susan Alma Road is her name at University of Virginia.
Um, in the nursing school there.
And while she was doing her, um, studies there, I'm sure she's not a student anymore.
Um, she was working with, um, NICU mothers.
Um, so she had this group of mothers whose infants were in the nicu.
Um, and she had them read aloud to their infants every day for about 30 minutes, I believe.
what she found through, uh, her research was that.
Those mothers who read aloud to their children, to their infants in the nicu, and you think, why would you read aloud to a a baby?
They don't, they don't know.
Um, but it actually lowered their rates of postpartum depression and stress.
And already mothers who have infants in the NICU have statistically higher rates of, um, postpartum depression and, and stress.
So the simple act of reading aloud for about 30 minutes.
Every day was able to lower that.
And uh, you know, I can't speak to the why, but I keep going back to the image of that you gave us of sitting next to a child and reading.
I think it's about building, um, building connections.
And even as silly as it sounds, reading aloud to your baby while they're in the womb, you know, they recognize your voice.
And that's the beginning of the connection.
And, uh, beginning of, um, language, and this might be slightly off topic, but.
Speaking of language development, children are already born recognizing your voice and they're born tuned into the language, um, that you are speaking.
So English is my native language.
I spoke English the whole time I was pregnant, and my son and I witnessed this actually the other day when I went to go pick him up.
Um, he was sitting in the lap of one of his teachers and the two teachers were speaking Spanish to each other.
And he was just staring like mesmerized.
And the research shows that even infants can recognize when different languages are being spoken because they're so in tuned with the language that they've heard, um, from the moment, you know, they were in, in the womb.
Um, and so witnessing, you know, I read the research on it, but witnessing it with my own eyes was pretty powerful for me.
Of course, he wasn't sitting there saying, these teachers are speaking Spanish, but it was very clear to me that he could recognize.
Uh, the language they were speaking was different than the language he hears at home.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: That's so incredible.
And I, the, the study references is so important.
I mean, we talk, you know, nami, we talk about young people, but we also support people of all ages with mental health concerns and, and new parents really can struggle.
And so just even having that one little piece of, um, information is so important.
And I think, and I agree with you.
That I would guess, again, I don't know, but it's about connection.
Um, it's about building, you know, I think I, I also have a young child.
I have a 2-year-old, and for me, routine is really, really important with with myself and with her.
So I think about building routine, about trust, about safety.
So if you're reading every day at a certain time for a certain amount.
Amount of time that can really build consistency and, and that connection and trust and it, and I think it gives, it gives me, at least as a parent, a, a chance to model, uh, you know, emotional intelligence and empathy.
So when I'm reading a story and, and the bear has his, it gets stung by a bee, I can say, oh, the bear got stung by a bee.
That hurts.
You know, and it.
And the mama bear comes and helps or whatever.
But I think it models and it lets you know, your child know, you know, we can talk about anything here.
If something hurts, we're here to talk about it.
Um, we're here for each other 'cause we've built this connection.
And starting young is, it's just like everything.
It's just the early intervention matters so, so much.
Um, I can, I totally resonate.
That really resonated with me, that story of the nicu.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: And I will certainly share the link to that for you, Jethro, so you could include it in the uh, show notes.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: And for me to read, I wanna read that.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Yeah, so because I have an infant, I'm more and more of course into learning about reading to, to babies and toddlers.
And as you mentioned, reading to a baby or toddler may be a different experience, um, than reading to an older child.
And that's something that I think, um, parents need to be aware of.
And maybe that just knowing that will help.
Reduce the stress of reading and make them be able to do it more and more.
'cause I, I don't know about you, but I also have, uh, a toddler who's a very, who's very wiggly.
So when we sit down to read a book, might not look like what you would typically read, a book.
You might not, um, start from the beginning and go to the end, um, and read every word on the page.
So if you remove that stress for parents knowing.
Just sitting down and looking at the book together.
Maybe your child's flipping through all the pages.
He likes the lion in polar bear.
Polar bear.
What do I hear?
So, or what do you hear?
So we're gonna flip back to the lion a bajillion times, but that's a great opportunity to, um, add some language about it.
Like, oh, I see you like the lion.
Um, you know, what does the lion say?
And, you know, we're learning things like likes and, and dislikes, very simple concepts.
Um, that if you remove that stress of I have to get through every page, I have to get through every word on the page, maybe parents just hearing that I hope will help encourage them to read with their young children.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: And that reminds me of what you said at the very beginning of making it fun.
Um, if you put too much pressure on yourself.
So as a parent, I know I put a lot of pressure on myself so I can, know, you, you want the best for your kid.
So to, to relieve yourself of the pressure of getting through every page or making it a perfect experience.
More just the presence is, is important being there, um, going through that book making maybe that if they, if they do like the lion, focusing on the fun there, and then maybe in a year they come back and there's more to it.
Um, so I really, that really makes a lot of sense and is a great connection.
Back to what you said at the beginning.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: We can use books in different, in different ways.
As you said, maybe in a year you read the whole book, but in the beginning, maybe it's just looking at the pictures, maybe it's just pointing to the picture and naming what's in the picture on each page.
Um, maybe you just look at the, at the one page, but.
You can always go back to a book again and again and, and learn new lessons with it.
It's like, uh, if you have a, a movie that you like to watch over and over again, you get something a little bit different out of it every time we hope.
barb-solish--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_151404: Yeah, I love that.
It's so true.
I mean, as we have some of the same books from when, you know, my daughter was first born that we're reading now and you know, it was colors at one point and now it's, does the bear need a hug?
Uh, it's a very different concept, but eventually you get there and.
You try to make it, make it fun, and then, and then learn throughout it.
And that's, that's what we're trying to get at and, and trying to keep this supportive environment for kids.
Because as we were saying, you know, the connection, the routine, the fun, um, all builds a better support system for them.
Um, especially if they face challenges like with their mental health.
Um, they know who to go to and who's safe and, and how to ask for help.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: Yeah, I love that is not typically a word anyone associates with reading or books, but I know that to be very true.
I.
jethro_1_06-18-2025_121340: Okay.
Wasn't that a great conversation?
I am so glad that these two ladies wanted to try something new.
In my next two episodes, I'm going to be interviewing them individually, but we wanted to try a little different approach and have these two titans take up the pretty much the whole time of the podcast and be able to share that.
So tell me what you think about this format.
Is this worthwhile?
Was this weird, different.
I don't know.
I want to hear your thoughts.
I like to try new things, and this seemed like a great time to try something, um, and, and give them both plenty of time to talk about what really matters to them.
So I also want to thank Macy's for putting this together.
Mason Macy's mission, everyone is a social commitment that focuses on creating a brighter future.
And for the last 22 years, they've partnered with riff.
To inspire a lifetime of reading, and they've provided over $47 million to bring over 17 million books for children in under-resourced communities nationwide.
So you can be part of this and, and help with this now through September 14th.
When you shop at Macy's, you can round up your Macy's purchase in the store to help.
Reading is fundamental.
Ensure that every child has the opportunity that literacy provides.
erin-bailey--she-her-_1_06-18-2025_121353: So I will say now, for over 22 years, Macy's has partnered with reading as fundamental to help end the youth literacy crisis.
And I'm grateful that we're partnering with NAMI this year to also support the youth mental health crisis.
jethro_1_06-18-2025_121340: Your Macy's purchase can help end the Youth Literacy Crisis shop in store to help riff empower youth to define their own bright futures through the power of books.
Here's Aaron with a closing thought about Macy's.
All right.
Once again, I want to thank, uh, Macy's riff and NAMI for being part of this.
If you want to hear more about.
Macy's mission, everyone go to macy's dot com slash purpose and there are links to the show note in the show notes to everything that we talked about today at Transformative principle.org.
Thank you so much for listening to Transformative principle today.
Appreciate you being here.