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We are Alyssa and Bri, two sisters who believe God wants more for women than we've been taught. Join us as we dive into the intersection of faith and feminism, learning together as we go.
Welcome to the We Are More podcast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree.
Speaker 2:We're 2 sisters passionate about
Speaker 1:all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word. And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
Speaker 2:Hello. Hello. Me. And also me. And also the ghost of Christmas past.
Speaker 1:It I think you may have to wait till after Christmas for the ghost of Christmas past.
Speaker 2:The ghost of Christmas yet to come. For us, right now, it is not yet Christmas.
Speaker 1:It It won't be Christmas for them when they listen to this. Well, that depends. You might be listening to this late.
Speaker 2:In the future, from the beyond.
Speaker 1:We watched last night, we had a Christmas wrapping party, and we watched the movie spirited. So we all got together with our microphones on, and we were like, wiggity wiggity wack. Good worst. We we, last year, picked a night and just wrapped presents
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like, a couple weeks before Christmas, and it was so nice because there was no desperate trying to wrap everything the night before. Yeah. I have heard, though, some people have a tradition of the whole family gets together and wraps their presents together the night before Christmas or something like that.
Speaker 2:I you know, people do so many different things for Christmas, and it's interesting. Like, I had a friend back in the day whose mom was very particular about what wrapping they used. Oh. Because it all had to be matching and aesthetically pleasing under tree. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which I I you know what? To each their own.
Speaker 1:I mean, if that's your vibe, sure. I am just not that organized of a human.
Speaker 2:I just love Christmas wrapping paper. I love it. All kinds of different wrapping paper. I buy 32 rolls a year.
Speaker 1:I saw a thing on TikTok, and they said that they would have the kids open their stockings every morning. And each kid has their stuff wrapped in one particular wrapping paper. Mhmm. But they have to open their stockings because at the bottom of their stocking is a piece of their wrapping paper, so they don't know whose
Speaker 2:is whose. Tricky. It's clever.
Speaker 1:But I just I don't the Pinterest moms, I'm really happy for you that you are able do these things, but let me tell you.
Speaker 2:It's just, you know, I have so many good intentions over the holidays. I intend to get all of my Christmas shopping done way
Speaker 1:early. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And it never happens.
Speaker 1:No. Not ever. I always think, oh, well, I shop throughout the year. I'll shop over the summer, things like that. But I'm also getting to the point where my daughter is old enough that you can't really pre shop for her
Speaker 2:anymore because there's things that are, you know, trendy and stylish and, like, the it gift Right. That you don't know until November. Right.
Speaker 1:And, also, we used to go out, like, during the summer when they have all the toy clearances and stuff, and we would just stock up on everything because she just wanted toys. Yeah. It didn't matter what they were. If it was a doll, that was great. If it was a car, that was great.
Speaker 1:But now there were several things in our our toy closet. We have a closet where we store all this. Closet of shame. Yeah. That's it.
Speaker 1:And there were several things where I was like, we're just gonna give this to Toys for Tots or something because it's not something that she's interested in or will enjoy, so we might as well just donate it. Yeah. Which is good, but also kind of wasted my time getting all those things
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Back in the summer. So we're hitting that really fun age. Speaking of being a mom
Speaker 2:Have you heard of Well, I'm not a mom. You're not.
Speaker 1:But we were generally speaking of being a mom.
Speaker 2:Mary, m m o j. Part 2.
Speaker 1:So last week, we talked about Mary, the mother of Jesus, if you missed that one.
Speaker 2:I honestly was a little bit tired during that episode, so I'm not a 100% sure what I even said.
Speaker 1:Next time, you can do the editing so you can relisten to yourself.
Speaker 2:I need to do that because, like, your guess is as good as mine too.
Speaker 1:Well, let me tell Bree and also our audience. Yes. Fill me in. So last week, we talked about basically mostly Luke chapters 12.
Speaker 2:Oh, the ah, I memorized that. Yeah. You're welcome.
Speaker 1:And so that was the beginning of Mary's story and also the beginning of her cousin Elizabeth's story, who was the mother of John the Baptist. And so we talked through that a little bit. If you didn't listen to that one, it might be helpful to go listen to that one first and kinda get a background, and then bounce back over here and listen to
Speaker 2:this one. Or you can listen to this entirely. Go back. Listen to the other one entirely, and then go back and then listen to this one again entirely. That would help our stats.
Speaker 2:Go right ahead
Speaker 1:and do that. Feel free. We'll wait.
Speaker 2:Just kidding. You gotta listen to this one, so I guess we won't wait.
Speaker 1:A moment of silence. So today, we're gonna talk a little bit I I think we had said last week that we were gonna jump into her later life in this episode. But because we have the luxury of a 3 parter
Speaker 2:and the luxury of saying, this is our podcast, not yours, we get to do whatever the heck we want. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:We're gonna talk a little bit instead about her character, kind of, who she was.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think we should talk about a little bit deep down who Mary was, like, her personality traits, but also what we've put on her in our, you know, modern understanding. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like, our modern religious viewpoint, I
Speaker 2:think. Yeah. Who we think that she should have been. Yeah. And also some things that just, you know, I I didn't know and I found on a YouTube video.
Speaker 1:I think one of the big inspirations for this particular episode,
Speaker 2:our good friend, Marg. Our good friend, Marg.
Speaker 1:She has been posting to her Facebook page, and she she's one of the most educated, impressive women that I've read anything from. Like, just so cool. Don't ask
Speaker 2:me how to pronounce her last name, though.
Speaker 1:No. We're going with Marg. And she we've actually posted about her on our socials a couple of times. So if you're looking for information on her, you can scroll back through. But she did a series called Christmas cardology.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And she's talked about just sort of the sequence of events of our Christmas story
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And Mary and who she was and what what that moment in her life would have looked like.
Speaker 2:And her misconceptions. Like, she talks about on Christmas cards, you see this very peaceful, serene Mary sitting on a donkey, traveling with Joseph. And in reality, that probably didn't happen. Mhmm. Because riding on a donkey at her state of pregnancy was probably not great for her, so she probably walked all the way.
Speaker 2:Right. And they weren't alone. They were with a big group of people traveling back to Bethlehem. And Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think we like to fit things into a mold that makes sense to us. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And in
Speaker 1:our world, you wouldn't let a pregnant woman walk miles upon miles for days long. Wouldn't let a pregnant woman walk miles upon miles for days long journeys. And, also, when couples travel, they often travel alone. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:it makes sense in our minds to say, this is what this would have looked like. Mhmm. But it's important to pull apart what the Jewish culture of the day Right. Would have been like because it helps us to understand her real story.
Speaker 2:I think the Jewish culture back then was from what I'm reading about, there was a huge emphasis on family and hospitality. Yeah. So, like, how they went back to Bethlehem, they weren't going to nobody. Joseph had family there. Right.
Speaker 2:So they're going to stay with family. Mhmm. And the family or the other members of the people who used to live in Bethlehem that traveled back with them, there's a big crowd. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Can we take a pause there and imagine for a moment? Think you're sitting there in your house. You're just you're peaceful. All is well. And then 45 members of your family that you haven't seen in maybe ever are like, hey, by
Speaker 2:the way. Picture my big fat Greek wedding, specifically the third one, I think. Oh, that's a rough time. Is it the third one? The third
Speaker 1:one's where they go to Greece.
Speaker 2:No. I'm thinking of the second one where they all come knocking on the door. They're like, we're here. We're we're here to solve all your problems. And he's like, you called the family?
Speaker 2:And she's like, no. I just called the one. Oh.
Speaker 1:But you don't know how long these people are staying. I imagine now Bree's gonna go into a little bit more of of the story of Bethlehem and what that looked like. Mhmm. But I just I just imagine the host families and, and not just Joseph's family, but all of the host families throughout all of these different regions Yeah. Where people were having to return to their homeland.
Speaker 2:To to utter horror.
Speaker 1:I don't want that many people in my house all the time. I love my family. No.
Speaker 2:Guys, if you're listening, I love you very much. But please don't come stay at my house indefinitely. I'm just picturing, like okay. So yesterday, Alyssa and I went out to Target. And Target, around this time of year Oh.
Speaker 2:No matter if you go on a weekend or not, but specifically this was a weekend, there were so many people there.
Speaker 1:So many inconsiderate people. And it's not even like, you know, when I
Speaker 2:go to Disney, I like the crowds. Not that I like
Speaker 1:You like the crowds?
Speaker 2:I don't like the crowds, but I'm expecting the crowds and I you know, it's just part of the experience of Disney. But going into Target, and there were so many people and they were all in my way and I didn't have a Starbucks and then Alyssa was like 2 inches from me and I just needed my personal space and I was like, get away from me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I took the brunt of it even though it was mostly all the other people.
Speaker 2:I just was in a mood. I didn't wanna be there anymore. I said, take my money. Get me the heck out of here.
Speaker 1:Bree gets a little moody sometimes.
Speaker 2:I forget why I was even talking about that.
Speaker 1:That it was crowded?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That that Oh, family coming to your house. Mhmm. Yeah. So I don't like it.
Speaker 2:I need some space.
Speaker 1:I just think it would be so difficult. Mhmm. And and, yeah, if there was a crowd of people, you don't really know these people because, likely, they're days' journeys away from you.
Speaker 2:I also think the luxury of being a little bit of an introvert Oh. And solitude was not a thing necessarily back then.
Speaker 1:Well, and think of you're not just talking normal families, like, grown ups. You're talking children, babies, and then you've got Mary who's ready to pop. Yeah. She's like but Bree did a little bit of studying on what that scene actually looked like and how different it was.
Speaker 2:Yes. So our idea of the Christmas story involves Mary and Joseph traveling back to Bethlehem on a donkey, but then going to stay at an inn, but being told that there's no room at the inn, so staying in a barn. Mhmm. Based on several other people's research, not just mine, actually, Marg talks about this as well in her article, it most likely was not what we think of as a barn. So the Jewish homes back then, they were set up in a way to accommodate family and guests.
Speaker 2:So there was an upper level of the house that was their guest space, and then there was a lower level, like the basement of the house, that was, like, a clean, nice area where they protected their animals. Mhmm. So to us, that doesn't make a lot of sense keeping, you know, your horses and goats
Speaker 1:and yeah.
Speaker 2:In your house, but that was what they did. Mhmm. And so when Mary and Joseph traveled back to Bethlehem, they it was a small town. They wouldn't have had, like, a hotel. Right.
Speaker 2:There was no Holiday Inn.
Speaker 1:Even if there was who wants to stay
Speaker 2:in a Holiday Inn? Exactly.
Speaker 1:Not to birth a baby. Those comforters haven't been cleaned in a long time.
Speaker 2:And the pool has pee in it. But the Greek word for guest room, we translated to inn, which in our mind means hotel. Right. Now I'll post the word, what they used from the Greek, somewhere on our social medias, but don't trust me with it right now.
Speaker 1:I wanna hear you pronounce it. It sounds like a great time.
Speaker 2:So, obviously, because there was such a emphasis on home and family and hospitality, they would have been going to stay with the family. Right. Also, the Jewish culture had, you know, an issue with cleanliness. Particularly with women. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So they would think after a woman gave birth, there was a period of time where she was considered unclean. Right. And anybody who was around her at that time would have been considered unclean as well. Mhmm. So she wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been normal for them to stay in that guest house area, guest room area, because there was other members of Joseph's family up in there already.
Speaker 2:So if she were to give birth in a big space around a whole bunch of other people, they would have all been considered unclean. Mhmm. So they went downstairs in this area where the animals were kept. And because it says that Jesus was born into a manger, we think of it as being a barn. But it wasn't a barn.
Speaker 2:It was just, you know Part of
Speaker 1:their house. Yeah. Yeah. That's just it really turns you think of, like, the manger scenes that we have that we I mean, it's in everybody's house, right, at Christmastime. My mom has this big, beautiful one that, like, my grandpa built, and it's gorgeous.
Speaker 1:And we all have those, And yet to kinda think that's probably and it's still a beautiful image. I'm not saying it's wrong.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But it's probably not what happened.
Speaker 2:And it's just, like, it's interesting to see how our different interpretations of these different languages has transformed the way that we think about that scene.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I think it's impactful too to think I guess, in my mind, when I've heard the Christmas story, you think of Jesus kind of being born alone. Mhmm. Like, he's on his own. This is sort of representative of his life.
Speaker 1:Right? He's on his own, and he's just gonna have to make his own way in the world to some degree. Mhmm. But when you think of it in this way where, like, Joseph is there with his family, there's probably she's giving birth and there's screaming children running above.
Speaker 2:Joseph probably wasn't there. That wouldn't have been normal for him to be there. That's true. There were probably midwives helping Mhmm. Birth Jesus into the world.
Speaker 1:And you think about how different that is on the outlook of the rest of his life. He wasn't born alone in a barn. He was born into a loving, big family. Now I can't I guess I can't say loving, but a big boisterous family all together, all working together to make sure Mary was safe, Jesus was safe.
Speaker 2:It was truly appropriate for them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Still kept in their home, in a home family
Speaker 2:space. Shunned out into what
Speaker 1:we could, like, get out there in the barn
Speaker 2:or our garage.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, because that's what it it often feels very flippant. And I've I have heard the story, like, oh, the innkeeper felt bad, but it often feels very flippant of just, oh, get in the barn. Yeah. See you by.
Speaker 2:There was no innkeeper. Right. It was family,
Speaker 1:which is so funny. We've created this whole story that really like, it's not in there. It's not in the bible. We just sort of added all these little things Mhmm. To fill out the story to make it pretty.
Speaker 2:To make it make sense to us. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's it's fascinating to me to think that. And then I think of Mary in the situation because we're we're talking about Mary. What's up, Mary? You think of her in this situation and how scary it would have been. Not that I mean, it's always scary to give birth.
Speaker 1:If if you've ever given birth, you know, it's Or if you've seen it.
Speaker 2:That's traumatizing as well. Traumatizing no matter where in the room you sit. If you saw it against your will. That's traumatizing as well.
Speaker 1:Do it on purpose. There was only a chair. There was no waiting room. But I think it's it's such a better story, so much better of a story to think of her in amongst family, in amongst midwives with support and care and women who've probably been through this before Yeah. As opposed to her in a barn.
Speaker 1:Even though we have scrubbed that image clean, we don't wanna talk about the realities of birth there, which I do wanna talk about
Speaker 2:in a
Speaker 1:minute. But even with the scrubbed clean pretty image Mhmm. She still had to give birth alone in that story.
Speaker 2:Yep. But in real own midwife. Yeah. And
Speaker 1:think about the realities of that story. Like, if if in fact she was in a barn and it was her and Joseph and nobody else is there, everybody's dying in that story. Mhmm. Yes. You could say god inner seeds, etcetera, but Joseph doesn't know what he's doing here.
Speaker 1:Nope. Women bleed when they have babies. Mhmm. Things tear, and it hurts. Women were dying when giving birth absolutely all the time.
Speaker 1:If she's giving birth in an unclean area
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:With no help at all, her and Jesus are dying in that story.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So to make it make sense in the real world, yeah, she's she's with midwives. Mhmm. And we we actually did an episode where we talked about some of the Jewish midwives. And Shifra. Shifra?
Speaker 1:Yep. That was that was a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Blast from the past. Those are the same time. After this too. And then listen to this one again,
Speaker 1:just in case. You wanna hear so much of our voices.
Speaker 2:We're a great time. We You're welcome.
Speaker 1:If you wanna fill your December with Alyssa and Brianna. I kinda wanted to also talk about, like I said, about how we scrubbed that image clean of birth. Mhmm. I saw a post. I'm actually gonna look it up real
Speaker 2:quick. I mean, think about that. How often are we doing that in our modern culture today? It was only recently that on pad and tampon commercials that they started using red liquid instead of
Speaker 1:blue. Oh my gosh. It's only recently in history that they started using blood to test those products instead of just random liquids.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And let me tell you, blood behaves differently.
Speaker 2:It does. It it's different.
Speaker 1:Okay. So there is I'm gonna call it a poem. It's not it's not a traditional poem, but that's what I'm gonna call it because I don't know what else to call it. Mhmm. And there's a page on Facebook.
Speaker 1:It's called Ezra Rising. She's really great to follow if you're looking for more Christian feminist content. Yeah. Super great. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so she posted a poem. It was not by her. It was by someone named Caitlin Hardy Shettler.
Speaker 2:Watch your mouth.
Speaker 1:And she accompanied it with a really beautiful painting. But I'm gonna read it because I think it really applies to this. Mhmm. It says, sometimes I wonder if Mary breastfed Jesus, if she cried out when he bit her, or if she sobbed when he would not latch. And sometimes I wonder if this is all too vulgar to ask in a church full of men without milk stains on their shirts or coconut oil on their breasts.
Speaker 1:Preaching from pulpits off limits to the mother of god. And then I think of feeding Jesus, birthing Jesus, the expulsion of blood and smell of sweat, the salt of a mother's tears, onto the soft head of the salt of the earth, feeling lonely and tired, hungry, annoyed, overwhelmed, loving. And I think if the vulgarity of birth is not honestly preached by men who carry power but not burden, who carry privilege but not labor, who carry authority but not submission, then it should not be preached at all. Because the real scandal of the birth of god lies in the cracked nipples of a 14 year old and not in the sermons of ministers who say women are too delicate to lead.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:I know. I I've probably read it 40 times at this point.
Speaker 2:Love it. Because we've I feel like, like you said, we've scrubbed it clean, and we think that because Jesus was fully god, obviously, he popped out of his mother with, you know, no pain, and everything was perfect. And Her hair was beautiful. Yeah. And he had a little shining halo around his head.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. But the reality was he was fully human too. And she was fully human. She's fully human, so they had a fully human experience. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I don't know any birth story that was like, oh, everything was perfect. I had no pain and there was no blood and happily ever after.
Speaker 1:Especially not without an epidural.
Speaker 2:Now I've never given birth, but I've seen it. And I can tell you that's not the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I we never ever talk we focus so much on birth in this season.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's so focused on birth, and yet we can't, for the life of us, talk about the reality of birth Yeah. And what that would have looked like. Mhmm. She was in pain. She was screaming.
Speaker 1:There was blood. There was other crap. Like and Jesus came out like any other baby, screaming and crying. Did you know that they're actually I don't know that this is common anymore, but there were a lot of pastors that used to, back in the day, try to claim that Jesus would never have cried as a baby.
Speaker 2:Because crying's a sin?
Speaker 1:Yep. Yeah. Because they cease crying children as sinful, and so Jesus couldn't have. Imagine I want you to take for a moment. Any of you who are parents or who have much experience with kids, imagine a non crying baby.
Speaker 2:Well, that would be horrifying. It would be awful. You'd think there's something wrong. And also, crying is how they communicate.
Speaker 1:So you would never know it was hungry No. Or tired
Speaker 2:or in pain or anything. You'd never know anything.
Speaker 1:There'd just be this creepy silent blob.
Speaker 2:I'm not in for that. Well, I mean, if you give birth nowadays and the baby is quiet, they're calling the nycud NICU? NICU. NICU team. And they're saying, what's wrong?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Well, I remember when my daughter was born, she came out blue. She was perfectly fine until I popped her out. Tabadee, tabadee. And then she they laid her on my chest, and she was blue. And I I was you know, you're after you push out a kid, your brain's not functioning properly.
Speaker 1:You're kind of in
Speaker 2:a haze. And you were young.
Speaker 1:And I was very young. And it occurred to me through all of this haze, and they're trying to stitch you up and, you know, everything's happening. And I thought, she's not crying. She should be crying. She's supposed to be crying.
Speaker 1:And then all of a sudden, there were 45 doctors in the room. Mhmm. She had a clog that they had to get out. And good story. She's fine.
Speaker 1:She's not blue anymore.
Speaker 2:Actually, she is. She's a smurf. She could birth through as much.
Speaker 1:But babies need to cry. Like Yeah. And I don't know that that really is a common thing that pastors are saying anymore. I hope not. But I know it was at one time.
Speaker 1:Think the Baptist pastor screaming at you from the pulpit, that was the perception. Well,
Speaker 2:if you wanna go that far and say that he shouldn't have cried, then he shouldn't have breastfed either, and he shouldn't have pooped.
Speaker 1:Because pooping is sinful. It's sinful. Sometimes.
Speaker 2:Because we wanna stay out of touch with the reality of being human.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It makes people uncomfortable. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we would I think we want Jesus to have none of our human characteristics at all. And just the practicality of it, and we see it throughout the bible. Jesus gets exhausted. Mhmm. He flips tables.
Speaker 1:He flips tables. He his feet hurt.
Speaker 2:He has to have
Speaker 1:the precareer that all of us millennials have to have before we build a real career.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, he had to become a carpenter before he started his ministry. Mhmm. And and you've gotta think there were times when he was bullied. There were times when he got hurt. Maybe he broke a bone.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, he didn't start his ministry until he was 30. Right? I'm for now. Like, you have to have a full, big life before that even started, his ministry even started for
Speaker 1:him, which I do love. I love that part that God doesn't expect us to be at our fullest, to be everything he's expected us to be immediately. Yeah. If Jesus got there when he was 30, Jesus, god himself Mhmm. Got here where when he was 30, if we're not there at 30, if we're not there at 40, we're still doing okay.
Speaker 1:Like, if we're not you know, I love Keep going with those numbers.
Speaker 2:Learning about different, like, celebrities or famous people when they got their 1st break like Kathy Bates. Mhmm. I don't think she got her 1st break until she was in her forties. Mhmm. And now look at her.
Speaker 2:She's a true American legend. Rocking it. She's amazing.
Speaker 1:And I think with Mary too, when we take away her humanity and we're gonna talk about this more, but I think of, like, the fact that she had period.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Think about that. Think about Mary Yep. Going through having a period, going through birthing other children
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Going through sickness and maybe the loss of some children, things like that.
Speaker 2:Exhaustion from staying up at night with Jesus. Mhmm. I don't do well with lack of sleep. Mhmm. And that's why I don't have children.
Speaker 1:Well, when she's a real person instead of this this figurehead that we've created her to be and I know, like, in Catholicism, she's a saint, and so you see these images of her as this saintly Mary. And when you do that and you scrub her clean of who she was Mhmm. There's not much. I'm sorry, but there's just not much to her. There's not much interesting about her.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. There's not much I care to learn about someone that's just perfect, and there's nothing else to them. Mhmm. You know? Even Jesus, there was so much more to him than just his perfection.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So when we throw Mary on this pedestal of, like, perfect clean womanhood there's even an argument that Mary and Joseph never had sex because she had to be kept pure despite the fact that they had a bunch of markets. Like
Speaker 2:and there's no backing behind it. It's just like one guy said, I think this maybe.
Speaker 1:Brie and I were talking about this a little bit, but when you see her in images Mhmm. She's shown as demure and mindful.
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you look up specifically Western European religious art, she's always shown in blue. Mhmm. She's shown with her hair covered, which probably, you know, may have been timely. She's a Caucasian.
Speaker 2:Her eyes are facing downwards. Mhmm. And she seems, you know, quiet and complacent. Mhmm. Submissive.
Speaker 2:Submissive. Yep. And like you were saying before, of course, she is because that's what they want women to be. Mhmm. But in reality, there's no biblical backing that she was any of those things.
Speaker 1:Well, she's supposed to be held up as the ideal for all women to follow. Right? She was chosen by god Yeah. To birth his son. So she must be the best woman on the planet.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Now, again, the Bible does not say that. But in theory, if you're thinking this through, you're like, well, obviously, if god chose her
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:She had to be the best. Mhmm. And so if she wasn't submissive, if she wasn't quiet, if she wasn't complacent and demure and whatever, then that's an example for all the other women
Speaker 2:of the world. But she had to put up with so much. Mhmm. She had to worry about literally her life being on the line because she was pregnant and couldn't explain to everybody that, like, hey. It's it's not because I was sinful.
Speaker 2:It's because god chose me. Mhmm. She had to be made of tougher stuff. Yeah. She had to be a little bit brazen and bold to be able to put up with that stuff, and it says so.
Speaker 2:She was assertive. She was active. Luke 139, John 2 1 through 5. There you go. That's from Marg's article.
Speaker 2:She's always going somewhere. She's always doing something. She's always being busy. She's always speaking her mind, and that doesn't fit the mold that we want conservative Christian women to be. Right.
Speaker 2:Well, when you look at and we haven't talked about this part of
Speaker 1:her story yet, but I'm sure a lot of you know it. Jesus' first miracle was changing water into wine at a wedding. I love that for him. And the story goes and I don't have the reference on me. But the story goes that, like, Jesus is at a wedding with his mother.
Speaker 1:More of his siblings could have been there. This was likely a family event. Mhmm. And all of a sudden, they run out of wine, which was a big deal. Okay?
Speaker 1:Like, I mean, honestly, it'd be a big deal now. Yeah. It'd be
Speaker 2:a big deal for me.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't be thrilled. But that was a big deal because it said to the rest of the world, they're poor.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They didn't have enough money Yeah. To supply good wine.
Speaker 1:And it would be a little shameful, right, for them to run out of wine. And so Mary goes to Jesus, and she says, hey. They're out of wine. Fix the problem. Come on.
Speaker 1:Which I find fascinating because it means, in my mind and, again, the Bible does not say this, but just interpretation would be that she knew he could do it. Mhmm. Which means she had likely seen miracles before. Even though this was his first public miracle, his first one recorded in the Bible, Mary probably saw Jesus do some pretty impressive stuff Yeah. Which means she was privy to that.
Speaker 1:She was chosen not just to birth the son of god, but to see His miracles. Yeah. Before the rest of the world got to. Yeah. And then she got to be really sassy with him, and I love that for her.
Speaker 1:And she went to him and she said, fix this. Now there are times in the bible where Jesus says people ask him for miracles, and he says no. Yeah. Because that doesn't further my mission. That doesn't it's not what I'm here to do.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I'm gonna guess that turning water into wine was not furthering Jesus' mission so much.
Speaker 2:His top priority. No. Although, we love wine.
Speaker 1:But his mom said so. Yeah. His mom told him to. Yeah. And so Jesus, in this case and I realize that this is about to sound a little bit blasphemous, but Jesus submitted to Mary.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Jesus, the son of god, submitted to a woman. Mhmm. To his mother, yes, but to a woman. Now I've also I wanna point out that in our translations, he says, woman, what do you want, basically?
Speaker 1:And that sounds really bad.
Speaker 2:And that's how I talk to my mom.
Speaker 1:But Because Jesus did. So But woman at the time would have meant kind of, like, a respectful based on the translations, it would have meant kind of a respectful ma'am. Yes. Ma'am, what do you want? And so he did that because she was his mother.
Speaker 1:But you have to ask the question of what sort of personality knows that they're speaking to the son of god? Yes. He's her son too. Mhmm. But she's speaking to the son of god.
Speaker 1:She's also speaking to an adult man who in her culture would have been above her
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:In rank Mhmm. Just just by being a man. Mhmm. And she's speaking to him and saying, you're going to do what I say now. Deal with it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, you know, we should focus so much more on relationship with god than what we're doing now Mhmm. In general as, you know, Christian people. The more that you focus on that relationship, the more you start to believe.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You have faith. She absolutely had faith. Like, yes. I believe God can do this. I have a relationship with him.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And he loves me as much as I love him. So, yes, obviously, Jesus, we need more wine.
Speaker 1:And I think we'll talk more about this story in the next episode too because it's just a great story.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's one of my favorites personally. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But Is it because you love wine too?
Speaker 1:It is a little bit, but, also, I like Mary in that story. I think she's great. But you can't that woman that orders Jesus, an adult man who's about to start his ministry, so, yeah, close to 30, somewhere in that age bracket, someone that's ordering him around is not quiet and submissive. Mhmm. She's not.
Speaker 1:Nope. And then you go back to the beginning of the story where Mary learns first. They didn't tell Joseph first Mhmm. That, oh, hey. Your future wife is gonna have the son of god.
Speaker 1:Surprise. Gabriel went to Mary first, which means god said, Gabriel, go to Mary first.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:We don't need to tell Joseph right now. He doesn't need this information today. Mary needs this information today. Mhmm. And then Joseph had to submit to his wife or his future wife in this scenario because Joseph, according to the bible, didn't get as much information as Mary got.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. He also wasn't literally carrying this child. And so he had to submit to her knowledge, her faith, and what was gonna happen. He just had to say, okay, Mary. I'm here.
Speaker 1:You tell me what to do. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What
Speaker 1:do you need?
Speaker 2:Because remember, he didn't really want to at first. He didn't believe her. Right. And we think in our Western European minds, oh, he wanted to divorce her.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But the reality of that for a Jewish woman in bible times, it's not just, oh, crap. He divorced me. I'll
Speaker 1:find somebody else.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. She would've possibly been stoned. Mhmm. There was that test that we've talked about before in the podcast where, you know, if he thought that she was an adulterous woman, she would have to go before the court and drink this bitter water.
Speaker 2:And if her stomach swelled, blah blah blah blah blah. I think that comes from Exodus, Leviticus. It's one of the laws books. Numbers? Deuteronomy?
Speaker 1:Let me just name it all by order.
Speaker 2:It's on one of those 66 books. But her life was on the line. Mhmm. And so Gabriel came to Joseph and was like, hey. Don't be an idiot.
Speaker 2:Believe her, please. But it's kind of sad that the only way he was gonna believe her is if an angel came to him.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. And I think Brie and I were talking about this literally just before we started recording. In that scenario, we like to think of I I don't know if I'm gonna say like. We often think of Mary as, oh, well, she would have been so sad to lose Joseph, whether because she loved him or because she wanted to be a wife.
Speaker 1:You know, we always relate women back to their relationships with men. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:She
Speaker 1:would only have been sad if she didn't get to be a wife. She would only have been sad if she was divorced. Whatever.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, the reality of the situation was not, oh, I'm worried about not getting married. Oh, I don't get to wear my beautiful white dress.
Speaker 2:No. It's my life. Mhmm. I literally would lose my life. Right.
Speaker 1:And then you can add that question into, like, why did she go see Elizabeth, according to some translations, immediately after she found out? Maybe because she was scared of what would happen to her.
Speaker 2:Yeah. She didn't know Joseph's reaction. Right. She wasn't sure about her town's reaction or Her parents, her
Speaker 1:siblings, if the servants found out. Mhmm. And it's easy okay. She wouldn't have been showing right away, and we know that because most of us know someone who's been pregnant. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But if she had servants I think of Bridgeton.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, if she stopped bleeding, they stopped having to clean her sheets, or she stopped going out into the desert to bleed for Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, 8 days, whatever. Someone's gonna notice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Someone's gonna notice.
Speaker 1:The servants are gonna notice. Mhmm. Or mom is gonna notice, or someone is gonna see that. Mhmm. This information is gonna get out pretty quickly Yeah.
Speaker 1:At least within a month. Mhmm. If not sooner, depending on her cycle, I guess. So maybe that's why she left.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's why she went to be with Elizabeth. I don't wanna deal with these questions right now. Mhmm. I'm gonna wait until god handles whatever god's gotta handle over here. Because I also think you it's you can say she believed fully.
Speaker 1:She absolutely believed that
Speaker 2:she was carrying the son of god and she wanted to. Mhmm. But that doesn't mean she did it without fear.
Speaker 1:Right. And it doesn't mean that she had all the information. I think we really want to look at this as, well, she went into this with her eyes wide open to everything. Like, Gabriel sat and had a 4 hour conversation with her and explained to her, well, you're gonna be safe and you're gonna live through this and all is gonna be well and you're gonna have healthy children and blah blah blah. No.
Speaker 1:That's not what was said to her. And in addition, she's dealing with this in a political climate Mhmm. Where horrible things are happening. Mhmm. Herod is waiting for this baby to be born, so
Speaker 2:it's a horrifying situation. There's a reason why god sent his son at that time Right. To save the world at that time. The world wasn't a happy place. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It wasn't a good place. It wasn't a safe place. And so god sent his son to save the world. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And she all all she knew was that she was gonna be a part of it. Mhmm. She knew that her name would be written down in history. We hear her say that in Luke. In the
Speaker 2:do you say Magnificat? Because it sounds fun
Speaker 1:if you say that. I wanna sound so educated and tell you, but I
Speaker 2:really don't know. It's in Luke chapter 1 verses 44 through 55, and it says, the Magnificat. Mary's song of praise. We read we
Speaker 1:read her song of praise last time you tried to sing it. I don't know if you recall.
Speaker 2:I don't. Did
Speaker 1:I? You sang you said, I'm gonna sing that. And I said, are you? And you said, yeah. And then I started to read it and you said, and then you gave up.
Speaker 2:Mary do do no.
Speaker 1:Hey. That might be the first time you've sang that this whole series.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're welcome. I think something that we don't think about too is that it is sad that Joseph was dead, by the time Jesus started his ministry in his thirties. So I think it's interesting that we also tend to forget Mary followed Jesus Right. Throughout his ministry. She was there when he died on the cross.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. She was one of the first women to be told that he resurrected Mhmm. From the dead. So she was a tough lady.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, you think how many women would do that if they were these demure, submissive women?
Speaker 2:They're not gonna barely turn their
Speaker 1:heads to breathe. We have made that joke a 1000000 times, and
Speaker 2:I don't think we've ever explained it. There's some kind of comedian who I think his name's Brian Regan
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's it. Who made a joke saying that you're welcome. That was so descriptive.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad. No. But, really, if Mary really was who she's portrayed in these stories, in the pictures, in the sculptures, whatever
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:She wouldn't have she wouldn't have followed Jesus. Mhmm. She would have stayed where she was comfortable. She would have remarried.
Speaker 2:She had other children too. Mhmm. So she, you know That's a lot of work. That's a lot of
Speaker 1:commitment. I think it's important to recognize also that she prioritized something other than being a mother in this instance. True. And that's very controversial.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But we've said this before. Women, your main goal in life is not to be a wife and mother. It's to serve the kingdom of god. Mhmm. And in this case, her main goal was not to be a mother to the rest of her children.
Speaker 1:Now they may have been mostly grown up.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But regardless, she left them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. She said, see you bye, butthole.
Speaker 1:She walked away from probably her grandchildren.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Who knows who else? I mean, if Jesus is 30, his siblings probably would
Speaker 2:have been married with kids. Which is saying something because, again, we talked about how the Jewish people of the time were very committed to family and hospitality. And, you know, it wasn't just, like, your nuclear family living in your house. It was probably a whole bunch of other people. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah. A big fat Greek wedding.
Speaker 1:She left her whole community to pick up and follow Jesus because her main goal in life, her main mission that god wanted for her Mhmm. Was to further the kingdom of god.
Speaker 2:Which also wasn't a safe path Yeah. Because Jesus' mission wasn't an easy path.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:People were after him. He ended up being crucified. Right. And how horrible
Speaker 1:Spoiler alert.
Speaker 2:He comes back. Don't worry. But how horrible for her to know that she loves her son so much, she loves god so much, knowing he's going to die. Maybe she didn't know exactly how.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:She knew that that had to happen. Right.
Speaker 1:I think I don't I don't really think of Mary as being this dedicated Christ follower because in my head, I've just heard the sermons about her. So it takes me a minute to pull myself out of that and say, no. She was an incredibly dedicated Christian, Christ follower, whatever you wanna call it, who gave up her whole life from the time she was possibly 12, possibly 14 Mhmm. Until likely she died.
Speaker 2:She died. In Mark's article, according to tradition, Mary later traveled to Ephesus with John the apostle, and they ministered there for many years until her death. So she was preaching and teaching Mhmm. Until she died. Which how often are you hearing that?
Speaker 2:Not often.
Speaker 1:I have never heard that. Thank you, Marg. We appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Marg's a great lady.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I just think, like, how did we make Mary so
Speaker 2:I I don't wanna say calm demure. Kinda pointless.
Speaker 1:We made her kinda pointless.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:She births Jesus, okay, but god could have picked anybody for that. Mhmm. And then what? Then we've just made her into nothing when she was not nothing. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:She was so important, not just to Jesus' birth, but to his entire ministry, to the support of his entire ministry. Do you think he could
Speaker 2:have done that without her love and care there? Well, also the stories that we hear about Jesus and his childhood, how do you think we found out about those? Yeah. The apostles were asking her Mhmm. Because she would have known.
Speaker 1:And she would have been there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The time where Jesus got lost for 3 days. She was the one telling that story. Right. And that's why we have it in the bible.
Speaker 1:Well, they say that I think we mentioned this in the last episode, but they believe that the reason that the book of Luke has Mary's story in it Mhmm. Is because he interviewed her. Because he sat down and had a conversation and said, like, hey, what happened? This would be important. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Can you share? And so when that we've got her song in there and
Speaker 2:Do you want me to sing it now?
Speaker 1:I would love if he did this time. Okay.
Speaker 2:Ain't no mountain high. That's not it. That's not right. That's Diana Ross.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I'm sure they didn't know. Mary probably couldn't belt it out quite like Diana.
Speaker 2:Although we don't know. We
Speaker 1:don't know.
Speaker 2:Because she she did belt it out in Luke 144 through 55.
Speaker 1:And as we said, we're pretty sure that these times were just one big Broadway musical.
Speaker 2:I just think it's hilarious that that's in the bible. It's like she was so overcome and she was like, oh, so pregnant with Jesus. And she's like, I need to sing about it. I need to make up a song and sing about it. How often are you making up songs and singing of
Speaker 1:your daily life? Every day that happens
Speaker 2:for sure. I'm on my way to work and I'm like, I'm on my way to work. Gotta pull some teeth today. You don't pull teeth. Sometimes we do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't I don't know where to
Speaker 1:go from there with that. You're welcome. Thank you. It's always fun when Bree gives me a you were welcome before I say thank you. That way I know where the conversation is supposed
Speaker 2:to go in this book, so I don't I said, I just feel jealous of the rest of the world because they get to see my beautiful face all the time. They are welcome.
Speaker 1:Bree is currently working on a book for our grandmother for Christmas. It's a continuation of a book because last Christmas, she filled out a journal.
Speaker 2:It's just a journal full of just whatever thought popped into my head. And let me
Speaker 1:tell you, that's a scary world.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then she gave the journal back to me and said, finish it. Finish it. Boy, did she not know what she was getting herself into.
Speaker 1:Also, I just wanna point out, she gave it to her last Christmas and said finish it.
Speaker 2:Or maybe She didn't. When did she give it to you? Just a few months ago.
Speaker 1:Okay. Brie just started, like, 3 days ago.
Speaker 2:Shh. Don't tell her that.
Speaker 1:She's not listening.
Speaker 2:Actually, I wrote it in here. I was like, I forgot you gave this back to me. It's November 23rd.
Speaker 1:But there are some gems in here. Let me tell you.
Speaker 2:If you want us to post some on our Instagram, I will.
Speaker 1:You might regret it,
Speaker 2:though. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So next week, we're gonna talk a little bit about the latter half of Mary's life and kinda go more deeply into those stories. Mhmm. Whether that's the turning water into wine story.
Speaker 2:I love that story. We should go into that story.
Speaker 1:Well, we already said we would.
Speaker 2:We can have wine while we talk about it.
Speaker 1:We do it most of the time. We could go back to the cheese lady. We've made good friends there.
Speaker 2:Our best friend Beth, our good friend Mark, our, bosom are bosom buddy, the cheese lady.
Speaker 1:We are strange people. So we'll talk about some of the other stories where we do see Mary and probably talk about a little bit more of Mark's articles because they've been really cool lately. They've been really interesting to learn from.
Speaker 2:We should definitely link her in all of our social medias. Marg Mowskowitz. That's not it. It's just not it. I don't even know.
Speaker 2:It's like m o w s z k o or something like that.
Speaker 1:You're close, but I think there's a c in there. Did I say c? No. There were no c's.
Speaker 2:Am I blacking out?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think so.
Speaker 2:So where is that c? No. Rewind the tapes. Rewind the tapes. Anyway,
Speaker 1:so we'll talk about that next week. And this is gonna be a little bit of a shorter episode because But
Speaker 2:it's Christmas time, and you're probably busy.
Speaker 1:And we have to build gingerbread houses, so says mom. We do have to build gingerbread houses.
Speaker 2:Our mom is here staring at us. We walked out we're at our parents' house recording,
Speaker 1:sitting on their bed, just chilling out, and we took a mid we we took a what is it called? An intermission. We took an intermission. Sabbatical.
Speaker 2:That's not it.
Speaker 1:That's not it. We took an intermission while recording. And I opened the door, and there my mother was lying on the floor with her ear pressed to the door.
Speaker 2:Like she was dead. So in the future,
Speaker 1:when I tell you how very strange she is and why we are the way that we are, you can think of this story. And believe me. Alright. We'll see you all next week.
Speaker 2:If you know anybody from
Speaker 1:no. I picked last time. Bethlehem.
Speaker 2:A reasonable place where our listeners might be. There's also a Bethlehem in Pennsylvania. All right.
Speaker 1:If you know anyone in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2:share it with them. And that's that. Have a good time. Okay. Love you.
Speaker 2:Bye.