1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,760 Welcome to the We Are More podcast. 2 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,600 My name is Alyssa. 3 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,600 And my name is Bri. 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,600 We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,520 We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,520 word. 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,720 And apparently that's controversial. 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:39,640 It's a bit comfy. 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:40,640 Welcome to- 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:48,320 Look how loud you are. 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,400 Hey welcome to episode seven. 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,240 I keep thinking of every time I make a joke, oh we're in kindergarten. 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,080 How old are you when you're seven? 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,080 Uh, second grade? 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:02,080 First grade? 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,080 How old are you when you're seven? 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,160 Alright, hey and welcome to episode seven of We Are More. 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,880 Bree's over there drinking coffee. 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,040 Ow. 20 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,120 It is the middle of the day so we shouldn't need the coffee quite as much. 21 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,280 What are you talking about? 22 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:20,280 I'm sorry. 23 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,200 There's nothing greater than a four o'clock coffee. 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:23,280 And I stand by that. 25 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:24,720 It's five thirty. 26 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,640 There's nothing greater than a five thirty coffee. 27 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,200 And I've always said that. 28 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,440 We did spend like thirty minutes in line at Starbucks today. 29 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:32,680 So I better drink that whole thing. 30 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:33,680 You better. 31 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:34,680 I already drank mine. 32 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:35,680 Are you proud? 33 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,080 And I stand also by, always get a large. 34 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:40,320 I don't stand by that. 35 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:41,960 Well that's because you don't drink very much. 36 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:43,480 I never will finish one. 37 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:44,480 That's silly. 38 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:45,480 I'm sorry. 39 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:46,480 No waste of money. 40 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:47,480 No waste of time. 41 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:48,480 That's why I don't get the large. 42 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,520 Really, really rude. 43 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,000 I can still hear that. 44 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,880 I'm trying to be quiet. 45 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:54,880 It's not going well. 46 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,960 I need like a camel back. 47 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:04,120 I want you to go into Starbucks and ask for a bring your camel back with you. 48 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:05,120 You know. 49 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:06,120 Bring your own cup. 50 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:07,120 Yeah. 51 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Will they fill a camel back? 52 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,120 What are your thoughts? 53 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,120 What if you had a wine bra? 54 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,120 Would they fill that? 55 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:12,120 Probably. 56 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,440 I think that would be the option. 57 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:15,440 You'd have a lot of lift. 58 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:21,320 I mean, I assume you'd have a lot of lift if it was full of wine also. 59 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:22,320 Yeah. 60 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:23,320 I'm fine either way. 61 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,760 How have we already got off the rails? 62 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,440 We're two minutes in, Bree. 63 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,480 We're nowhere near the rails. 64 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,960 I feel like we should introduce ourselves also because... 65 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,720 My name's Brianna. 66 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,640 That was horrifying. 67 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:46,320 So if you're new to the podcast, my name is Alyssa and my sister over there who's drinking 68 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:47,880 the coffee is Bree. 69 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:48,880 I'm Bree. 70 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,360 I can introduce myself. 71 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,440 Thank you very much. 72 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,440 And we are working... 73 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:58,960 More. 74 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:10,160 Yes, but also we're working through a little mini series on some of the big topics of Christian 75 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:11,560 feminism. 76 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,040 So we have done modesty and women in leadership. 77 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:22,800 And last week we talked about some of the big questions that we've been seeing from 78 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,120 either side of the argument. 79 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,980 So why do we hate women? 80 00:03:26,980 --> 00:03:31,400 I mean, nope. 81 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:32,400 We love women. 82 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:33,400 That's the point. 83 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,200 Why do we hate men? 84 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,200 There we go. 85 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,980 Why do they hate women? 86 00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:44,400 And then also why did we stay in church and why are we still people of faith? 87 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,680 So if you didn't listen to that one, definitely jump back and take a listen. 88 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:49,680 I don't know. 89 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,560 Or plus also listen to this. 90 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:53,560 And then jump back. 91 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:54,560 And then jump back. 92 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:55,560 And listen to that one. 93 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,760 Because that one was pretty good and that kind of, I think, leads to foundations for 94 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,080 a lot of the questions that we get. 95 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,080 Yeah. 96 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:04,080 And our personalities. 97 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,080 We're a good time. 98 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,080 We are a fun time. 99 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,840 Except for when I don't want to be. 100 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,200 We're more fun midday than we are at 830 at night. 101 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:13,400 It's really true. 102 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:14,400 You've gotten very old. 103 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,160 I don't know what's wrong with me. 104 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:24,400 Like it hits 830 and I am in bed and watching TV and nothing is getting done. 105 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:25,400 No. 106 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,320 Last night, actually, I woke up and I was like, holy cow, it must be really early in 107 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:31,680 the morning. 108 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:32,680 I woke up. 109 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,600 I was like, dang, it's so early in the morning. 110 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,400 And it was 1053 at night. 111 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:39,400 Oh. 112 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,400 But yeah. 113 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,440 We are recording midday today, so hopefully we'll be peppier. 114 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,960 I don't know that 530 is midday. 115 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,560 I mean, it is if you stay up until 11. 116 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,120 I'm only up for maybe three more hours. 117 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,280 That's true. 118 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:56,800 But it's a Saturday, so we slept in a little bit. 119 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,160 Hallelujah for a Saturday. 120 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,320 That's one of God's greatest blessings. 121 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,320 Saturdays is a Saturday. 122 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:05,600 Possibly also a Sunday. 123 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,400 Tomorrow is Mother's Day for us. 124 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:08,920 Happy Mother's Day. 125 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,560 For you, Mother's Day is long in the past. 126 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:13,560 Yeah. 127 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,560 Welcome to the future. 128 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,640 Nope, the past. 129 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,440 To the land of tomorrow. 130 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:29,160 So today, now that we're five minutes in, today we're going to talk about submission. 131 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:30,160 The big S. 132 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,160 The big S. 133 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,960 I know another big S. 134 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,960 Stacey! 135 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:44,080 Shout out. 136 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:52,800 So we wanted to talk about this topic because this is probably the hottest button issue 137 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,960 facing women in the church today. 138 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,240 There have been a lot and we have gone through several of the topics, but this is the one 139 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,480 that for me anyway hits home probably the hardest. 140 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:12,320 And for me, makes me want to avoid marriage at all costs. 141 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:17,520 But I think that such an important part of this is that because you've experienced that, 142 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:24,800 and I thought the same thing before I got married too, this attitude towards women submitting 143 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:30,820 to their husbands, and we'll go through what that means in a second, has made us both want 144 00:06:30,820 --> 00:06:33,240 to avoid marriage. 145 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,720 Like it's making women avoid marriage. 146 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,880 Is that really the goal? 147 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,400 And I can tell you it's not because having been in Christian circles for a long time, 148 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:44,960 the whole goal of life is marriage. 149 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:52,800 Oh my gosh, the amount of people that, maybe I shouldn't say this, that have gotten married 150 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,860 while they were in college, like people that I knew that got married. 151 00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:58,040 And how many of them are divorced now? 152 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,240 It's actually, yeah, it's shocking. 153 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,760 And it gets, I think part of it is because it gets pushed so hard, like get married, 154 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,760 get married, get married. 155 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,040 But you're so young, you don't know yourself. 156 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:10,800 Oh my gosh. 157 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,560 I still don't know myself and I'm ancient. 158 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:22,200 And I mean, I got married in college, but it was incredibly unreasonably hard. 159 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Yeah. 160 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,660 Because you don't realize that until you get a lot older that, oh my gosh, I did not know 161 00:07:27,660 --> 00:07:30,640 everything that I thought I did when I was that age. 162 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,280 I mean, you're literally a child. 163 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:34,680 You are an actual child. 164 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,560 Your brain has scientifically not fully developed. 165 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,000 You can't rent a car. 166 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,800 And if you can't rent a car, you shouldn't get married. 167 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,680 We're going way off topic here. 168 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:53,360 So first we kind of wanted to talk about what submission in the church means, because if 169 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:59,720 you're not a churchy person, I don't know that this, I remember talking about this to 170 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,760 one of my friends who did not grow up in the church. 171 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,480 And I said something about like, oh, they have a really submissive marriage. 172 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,760 And she looked at me real weird. 173 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,200 Like we were talking about- Oh, yeah. 174 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:13,200 In the bedroom. 175 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:14,200 Yeah. 176 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,200 Yeah. 177 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,360 So if you're not familiar with this. 178 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:25,880 Well, also, I think it's very conservative Christian pushed because my friends who are 179 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:32,240 Catholic or just not as religious, they don't really understand what I'm talking about either. 180 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,880 No, I don't think it's really talked about in this way at all. 181 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:41,800 You do have like that tradwife movement, but I still think it's talked about differently 182 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,840 than the word submission. 183 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,600 But for people who grew up in the church, this is particularly women that grew up in 184 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:50,720 the church. 185 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,520 This is all we hear about all the time. 186 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,280 There's like 40 sermons on it a year. 187 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,480 Or like casually, maybe your pastor screams at his wife from the pulpit to submit. 188 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:02,480 Like casually. 189 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,260 You know, as you do. 190 00:09:06,260 --> 00:09:09,720 So I think Bre made some notes that are interesting. 191 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,800 Honestly, I blacked out. 192 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,600 I have no idea what I noted. 193 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:21,040 Well, it's on the screen so you can do you think I have eyes of a what animal has really 194 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,040 good eyes? 195 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,040 An owl. 196 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,040 Eyes of a wombat. 197 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:25,040 Do wombat have? 198 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,040 I don't know. 199 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,040 What is a wombat? 200 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,040 I just made up that saying. 201 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,040 I just made it up. 202 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,040 Off the top of my head. 203 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:31,040 Eyes of a wombat. 204 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,040 We could name this podcast. 205 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:33,040 Eyes of a wombat. 206 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:34,040 They'd be like. 207 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:44,920 What am I going to listen to? 208 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,560 And it's about submission. 209 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:49,600 Great. 210 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:50,600 Love that for us. 211 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:51,980 What did I say? 212 00:09:51,980 --> 00:09:56,720 How do you picture traditional submissive marriage? 213 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:57,720 Or what have you been told? 214 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,760 Yeah, let's talk about it. 215 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:07,400 The way that I guess I always saw it was very much like the man leads everything. 216 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,320 He makes all the decisions, the big decisions, the little decisions. 217 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:18,680 And as the wife, you just sort of follow along. 218 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:24,760 And you don't have a whole lot of value. 219 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,040 There's not a lot of importance to your role. 220 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,400 There's not a lot of recognition for your role. 221 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:36,680 Even though you're expected to do everything around the house, everything for the kids. 222 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:39,560 Also in the current economy, you have to have a job. 223 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:42,360 You have so much responsibility. 224 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,560 But no say in anything. 225 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:46,640 Very little control. 226 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:53,920 And I saw this play out many, many times in my whole community. 227 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,960 And it never seemed to work very well. 228 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,960 The way that I pictured it... 229 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,040 Now I wrote down a couple of notes. 230 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,280 This sounds really bad, but the way that I picture it is like, because we grew up with 231 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:06,280 dogs, right? 232 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,680 We've had 1,000 dogs. 233 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:13,120 And you can always tell when you have two dogs in a room, one will kind of bow down 234 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,200 to the other. 235 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,240 That's what I picture when I think of submissive marriage. 236 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:26,520 I think that men who really believe in it and want to live it out, see women as stupid. 237 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,480 See women as worthless. 238 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,900 See them as not leaders. 239 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:35,200 That they hold very little value. 240 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:43,640 And that because they were born with a weenie, God looked down at them and said, you are 241 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,980 blessed, my son. 242 00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:49,400 Maybe that's a big graphic. 243 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:57,480 But in my experience, men who really believe in that and want to live it out, see women 244 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,680 as no greater than an animal. 245 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:09,360 Well, I think the church has tried to rebrand a little bit because the word patriarchy and 246 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,560 submission, they're not marketable. 247 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:16,120 It doesn't work in modern day society. 248 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:21,600 So they try to rebrand it and they'll say things like, well, it doesn't mean that she's 249 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,680 less than him. 250 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:24,680 It's equal. 251 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:25,760 They're equal roles. 252 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,080 They just have separate roles. 253 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,280 It's just that he's the leader. 254 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,680 It's just that he makes all the decisions and you do need to submit to him, but you 255 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:34,680 are equal. 256 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,400 And like, think about that in any other context. 257 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:47,760 If you were to say, because people love to compare marriages to companies, football teams, 258 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,060 whatever where you have to have one leader. 259 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:52,360 So let's compare those things. 260 00:12:52,360 --> 00:13:02,320 Let's say you have a company and there's the CEO and then there's the general store manager. 261 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,560 No one is going to look at those two roles and say equality. 262 00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:09,320 They're equal, just different. 263 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:10,320 No. 264 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,280 Or on a football team, you've got the head coach or- 265 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:16,400 The towel boy. 266 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:17,400 The towel boy. 267 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,380 Or even like a pitching coach or something like that, like a more minor coach. 268 00:13:22,380 --> 00:13:28,000 No one is going to look at those two roles and say equal, just different. 269 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,840 And that leads us into like separate but equal. 270 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:32,840 Exactly. 271 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,120 Has always never been equal. 272 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,140 Why have we not learned that as a society? 273 00:13:37,140 --> 00:13:40,360 The church is trying to push that so hard. 274 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:45,200 Separate but equal, separate but equal, separate but equal is not equal. 275 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:54,720 When the role of a man is lead, make the decisions, tell your wife what she's going to do next, 276 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:00,100 her will has to be for what you want instead. 277 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:05,920 And that's something that's a whole other thing. 278 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:11,840 But that's something that is often said is that a wife's desire should be for her husband. 279 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:18,640 So all of the wife's wants, needs, ambitions prior to marriage are supposed to kind of 280 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:24,600 become less than her husband's desires, ambitions, wants. 281 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:33,400 And you can't look at those two things and tell me, but they're equal. 282 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,840 Now not all conservative Christians are trying to say it's equal. 283 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,120 Some of them are very blatant about one role is better than the other. 284 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,880 God created men first, he likes them better. 285 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Some people are very blatant about it. 286 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,400 But I think the church as a whole is trying to rebrand and pretend. 287 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,200 Well that's where the term complementarianism came from. 288 00:14:53,200 --> 00:15:00,040 It's because they knew patriarchy is that it's a hot button. 289 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,840 You can't market it. 290 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,000 So it's a lot easier to say complementary. 291 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:11,720 Well let's define those real quick too because I know we've we have talked about this in 292 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:12,720 the past. 293 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:21,200 But if you aren't caught up on episodes or haven't heard that one in a while, complementarianism 294 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:30,400 within the church setting is defined by people who believe that women are complementary to 295 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,400 men. 296 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:40,780 So instead of being equal, instead of being on equal playing ground, the women are simply 297 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:47,600 there to complement, to be a helper for the men. 298 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:53,440 Sometimes that being their husband, sometimes it just being whoever walks by. 299 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,640 And then there's egalitarianism, which is the flip side. 300 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:03,360 And it's the belief that women and men are equal, made equally in God's eyes, equally 301 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,400 meant to rule the world together. 302 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,700 So that's kind of a simplistic version of that I guess. 303 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:18,640 So that's kind of how we saw things growing up and still see them today. 304 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:24,360 Yeah, I don't know that I so much thought about it when I was younger, but as I've gotten 305 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:30,640 older and more towards the marrying age, I definitely noticed that a lot more. 306 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,120 Like 1950s households. 307 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:39,080 That is the like epitome of a perfect submissive marriage. 308 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:51,520 Well really I think that the church idealizes, say it again, idealizes the 1950s whole lifestyle. 309 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,120 And for men, yeah, things were going great. 310 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,360 They came home from work, they put on their slippers that were waiting for them at the 311 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,440 door, they sat in their chair and read their newspaper and dinner was brought to them. 312 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,900 And their wife was beautiful. 313 00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:10,920 She just recently changed out of her work clothes into her dinner clothes. 314 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,720 She's got on her pearls. 315 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,820 For women and many other groups, don't get me wrong, this is not specific to women, but 316 00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:22,560 in this context for women, times were bad. 317 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:30,000 They spent the entire day doing things around the house, cleaning, some of them had jobs, 318 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,420 taking care of the yard, taking care of the kids and the pets and the blah, blah, blah. 319 00:17:34,420 --> 00:17:38,240 And then he comes home and she has to serve him. 320 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,560 Well what's crazy is like, he works a 9 to 5. 321 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,560 She works a 24-7. 322 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:43,560 Right. 323 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,280 When does she get a break? 324 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:50,840 Right, but if you are looking at the world from a complementarian standpoint, that looks 325 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,620 great. 326 00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:55,880 Because she spends her whole life in service to him. 327 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,920 And I guess he's in service to God in theory? 328 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:03,480 And so often you see that leads to abuse. 329 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:04,480 Oh, all the time. 330 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:05,560 Time and time again. 331 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,880 We have 50 examples right off the top of our heads. 332 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:17,680 Because you give someone that kind of power and slap God's name on it, of course it's 333 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,180 going to lead to abuse. 334 00:18:19,180 --> 00:18:23,440 Well they say absolute power corrupts absolutely. 335 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:30,280 And in this very submissive standpoint, and a lot of the resources we're about to talk 336 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:36,720 about, these men are being given absolute power. 337 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,600 Their wives are not to question them even if they aren't following God. 338 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:47,720 Even if they're doing wrong and their wives know they're doing wrong, their wives are 339 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,640 still supposed to follow them. 340 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:50,640 Into what? 341 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:51,640 Hell. 342 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:52,640 I mean really? 343 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,520 Like at some point that's what you're asking. 344 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,940 You're asking wives to follow their husbands submissively into hell, and is God saving 345 00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:03,940 them after that? 346 00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:08,480 I have serious questions about that because if you're following your husband into sin, 347 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,940 knowing that he's sinning, knowing that he is doing wrong, you can't tell me that you're 348 00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:15,360 not also culpable in that. 349 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:22,620 So we have two, this is going to be I think a two to three part podcast. 350 00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:23,660 Because we have a lot to say. 351 00:19:23,660 --> 00:19:24,660 We have so much to say. 352 00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:25,660 We haven't even got to the research yet. 353 00:19:25,660 --> 00:19:26,660 We're just really- 354 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:27,660 We're just mad! 355 00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:37,000 You know how Taylor Swift said that her new set for the Torture Poets department was Female 356 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,000 Rage? 357 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,000 The musical? 358 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,360 That's what we should call this episode. 359 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:43,560 Female Rage. 360 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,560 But so far Brie hasn't sung. 361 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:47,600 I could start. 362 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:48,600 You could. 363 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,120 I have beatboxed. 364 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:53,760 That is new for us that you haven't had something to sing about yet. 365 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,400 I sang right at the beginning and you just didn't hit record. 366 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:58,400 Sorry. 367 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,320 So that's really what we're going to do. 368 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,520 So anyway we're gonna for this episode in particular we're gonna go through two separate 369 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,720 articles. 370 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:12,720 One of them is from a very complementarian standpoint and one of them is from a very 371 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:21,720 egalitarian standpoint and talk about the merits of each and let you decide from there. 372 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:22,720 Yeah. 373 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,000 Okay. 374 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,960 The first one and I want to talk about the title a little bit because it's important. 375 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,120 It's called Submission Does It Proceed the Fall? 376 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:34,280 Does it? 377 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:41,480 So we talked about this in a previous episode as well but in order for the concept of submission 378 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,640 to work biblically it has to be before the fall. 379 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,840 So it has to be before Adam and Eve sinned. 380 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,320 God's ideal perfect view of marriage. 381 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,960 Now, there's not a lot of stuff in the Bible before the fall. 382 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:57,960 Not a lot, no. 383 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:58,960 There was nakedness. 384 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,800 There's a lot of nakedness. 385 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,680 Which means... 386 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:12,360 So in order to believe in submission as God's perfect plan for his people it has to have 387 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,600 happened before Adam and Eve ate the apple, sinned, etc. 388 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,120 Do you think God's perfect plan for humanity is veganism? 389 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:22,840 I don't know, maybe. 390 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:23,840 God? 391 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,680 Who there? 392 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:33,760 So this article makes the argument that submission does precede the fall because it has to. 393 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,600 In order for it to hold up throughout Christianity it has to precede the fall. 394 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,480 That's what everything comes down to. 395 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,400 So he's got nine points here. 396 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,600 Nine beautiful points. 397 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,080 Nine points. 398 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,920 And we're gonna go through them and talk about them. 399 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,280 I'm not gonna read directly because I don't want to get sued. 400 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,280 I do. 401 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,280 Oh, Brie does. 402 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,800 So maybe she can read directly. 403 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,240 But we're gonna go through them. 404 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,440 Maybe not in order. 405 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,000 But... and just kind of talk about them. 406 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,400 So the first point that he makes is the order of creation. 407 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,400 We love this one. 408 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,400 This is my favorite. 409 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,440 Wait, where's my Bible? 410 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:23,880 So he is making the argument that because Adam was created before Eve, that this means 411 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:29,320 automatically that that is the foundation for how human relationships should go. 412 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,880 And you've got to think, this is his most important point because he's putting it at 413 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:34,880 number one. 414 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:35,880 That's number one. 415 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:36,880 Absolutely. 416 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:37,880 What came before Adam? 417 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,880 Everything. 418 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,180 Everything else. 419 00:22:42,180 --> 00:22:45,920 So that means that we're at the bottom of the pecking order, ladies and gentlemen. 420 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,000 I better go submit to the dog. 421 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:54,640 I mean, seriously, but that is a groundbreaking point. 422 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,680 Everything else was created first. 423 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,320 Men and women came last. 424 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,200 The sun, the stars, the earth, the plants and animals. 425 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,000 And I'm gonna be honest with you guys. 426 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:20,200 Conservative people not known for their love of the environment. 427 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,920 They just want Jesus to come faster. 428 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,160 And you can't fault them for that. 429 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,160 But what a dumb point. 430 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,160 I know. 431 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,160 Come on. 432 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,320 What does he go on to say about that? 433 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,320 There's not a lot. 434 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,320 He doesn't really, he says, this may seem to be weak grounds for an argument, but it 435 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,360 was strong enough for Paul to mention in 1st Timothy, where he says he doesn't permit a 436 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:48,040 woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, which we will get into later. 437 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,960 But that's not really a point. 438 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,720 No, Paul is not referencing back to creation here. 439 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,720 No, he's mentioning culture. 440 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:57,720 Right. 441 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,720 So that one falls apart real quick. 442 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,840 In case you hadn't noticed, we're gonna rip these apart. 443 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,840 No, we're gonna let you decide for yourself. 444 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,560 You can decide for yourself, but we're gonna rip them apart. 445 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,520 So the second point, because we've got a there's nine of them, we got to speed through. 446 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,240 He calls it the representation of the human race. 447 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:26,240 So he says that Adam was the one who had a special role in representing the human race. 448 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:33,600 Adam, he says, was considered the most at fault for sin, even though Eve was first. 449 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:34,880 And then he quotes Corinthians. 450 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,200 He says, as in Adam, all men shall die. 451 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,780 So also in Christ shall all be made alive. 452 00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:46,480 He then says, Christ is the second Adam, not the second Eve, as we might expect if the 453 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,080 Bible held Adam and Eve as being equal in representation and leadership. 454 00:24:51,080 --> 00:25:04,040 I have so many questions, but they all end in, why are you stupid? 455 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:11,720 The thing is, the Bible does not say that Adam is more responsible for the first sin. 456 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,120 It also doesn't say Eve was more responsible for the first sin. 457 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,520 They're equally punished. 458 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,420 And frankly, Eve gets it pretty bad. 459 00:25:20,420 --> 00:25:22,640 Have you heard about childbearing? 460 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,280 That's why I'm not having a kid. 461 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,420 Eve gets it pretty bad. 462 00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:33,280 And when he talks about in Corinthians that Adam is referenced and not Eve, that's just 463 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,160 how things are written. 464 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,480 It's just clunky to say, as in Adam and Eve, all people die. 465 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,520 It's not how things were written back then because people, it was a patriarchal society. 466 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,480 So things were written primarily to and about men. 467 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,240 Women often, unfortunately, did get forgotten. 468 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,240 Yeah. 469 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,920 Like a middle child. 470 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,720 Much like you, the middle of the children. 471 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,920 Much like me. 472 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,600 So then these are all, they're so bad. 473 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,600 Okay. 474 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,080 No, we're going to let you decide by yourself. 475 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,000 So then it's the naming of women. 476 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:19,640 So Adam, as you may or may not know, was given the responsibility to name the animals and 477 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,880 Eve when she was created. 478 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,560 You have a thought? 479 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,440 I'm just saying, did he know that they didn't speak English back then? 480 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,240 I don't think he does. 481 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:40,760 So the verse is Genesis 2 23, and it's she shall be called woman because she was taken 482 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:41,760 out of man. 483 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,760 Okay. 484 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,360 And then it talks, he says, this parallels the account of creation where God named the 485 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,040 night and the day, the expanse, the waters. 486 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,640 By naming them, he showed his authority. 487 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,300 But let's point out, he didn't name them. 488 00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:57,480 God didn't name them. 489 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,040 He told Adam to name them. 490 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,400 So the person with the most authority didn't name them. 491 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,480 Let's just, let's just rip that one out. 492 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,960 Adam says she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. 493 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:12,960 Okay. 494 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,360 But where does that mean that he has authority over her? 495 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:17,600 No, it doesn't say that. 496 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,640 It doesn't say that. 497 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,040 Which means that you're reading into whatever you want to, you know, you know what I'm saying. 498 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,880 Not just reading into it, you're putting words in God's mouth, which is again, what Christian 499 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,160 feminists get accused of all the time, but it's clearly what's happening here. 500 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,920 All right, guys, we're only on point four. 501 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:37,920 All right. 502 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:45,880 So then the naming of the human race that it's man, not man and woman, because that 503 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:46,880 wouldn't be clunky. 504 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,880 Men and women. 505 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,680 Again, a very lazy argument. 506 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,240 Also, give me a verse. 507 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,640 Well the one he quotes, so here's what he quotes, Genesis 5, 1 through 2. 508 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,360 When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 509 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:06,920 Male and female he created them and he blessed them and named them man when they were created. 510 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:13,360 Now I want to point out that that verse says male and female he created them and he blessed 511 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:18,160 them and made them man when they were created. 512 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:28,400 So perhaps, again, we lose a lot through translation and at the time, the word man, not the word 513 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:35,680 man because it wasn't the same word in Greek and Hebrew, but was used as a gender neutral 514 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:36,680 term. 515 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:37,680 Yeah. 516 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,360 Now you can, this is something you can absolutely look up. 517 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,160 Kind of similar to how we say guys. 518 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,160 Hey guys. 519 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,160 Exactly, exactly. 520 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:49,200 It was a gender neutral term, it did not always mean just men. 521 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,300 Just genetically men. 522 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:53,240 So that's point four. 523 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,400 Point five goes back to the same thing. 524 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:03,580 He says primary accountability, that men were primarily accountable for the first sin because 525 00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:09,200 God called Adam first when he was looking for them after they sinned. 526 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,580 I don't know. 527 00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:11,580 I don't know. 528 00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:18,040 I just feel like so far it seems very desperate and I think that's how a lot of these arguments 529 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,040 are. 530 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,200 It's a desperate grab at power. 531 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:29,900 Well, it has to be because there's really not a lot in the Bible pre the fall. 532 00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:36,280 So you really have to grab on to bits and pieces and I want to point out that if this 533 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,360 was God's perfect plan, he wouldn't have made it so sketchy to figure out. 534 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,760 He would have made it clear. 535 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,800 Yeah, he would have said God is not the God of confusion. 536 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,320 From the moment Eve was created, he would have said and Eve submit to him. 537 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,920 But he didn't. 538 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,320 That's not what happened. 539 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,680 So you have to ask that question. 540 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,920 Why would God make this so confusing for us to figure out? 541 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,160 Then of course he goes into helper. 542 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,900 Because you gotta always go there. 543 00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:11,560 He says the purpose of women. 544 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,280 That's the title of this segment. 545 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:14,280 Wonderful. 546 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,160 The purpose of women. 547 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:21,120 Eve was created as a helper for Adam, not Adam as a helper for Eve. 548 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,800 Now we have gone into this before. 549 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:32,400 We have done a whole podcast on the word helper, which translate as Ezzer. 550 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,240 And I really encourage you to go back and listen to that one because we pull it apart 551 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,700 in a really deep way. 552 00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:40,200 And I'm not going to do that right now. 553 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,120 But helper, and he calls feminists out in this. 554 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,600 He says that feminists have made a lot of the term helper. 555 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,560 But it really just means that, you know, he says that she is subordinate to him. 556 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,900 But then he goes on to say that she's equal. 557 00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:01,720 But also, God calls himself a helper. 558 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,940 So it just doesn't hold up. 559 00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:11,600 So if you don't have time to go back and listen to that episode, Ezzer, the word used in the 560 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:18,260 Bible for helper, God uses it to describe himself often throughout the Bible. 561 00:31:18,260 --> 00:31:21,200 He also uses it to describe warriors. 562 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,480 He doesn't use it as a subordinate term. 563 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,380 He uses it as a warrior term. 564 00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:31,920 And let's also talk about how, I don't know if this is a valid thought or not, but like 565 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,720 the only time God calls something not good when he's creating it is when he was alone. 566 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,520 So yeah, he created Eve. 567 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,680 Maybe those men were just lazy and boring. 568 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:50,800 No, but he created her as a partner, as someone to come alongside Adam and help him do the 569 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,880 things that God called people to do. 570 00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:00,060 Not that God called Adam to do, but to become a partner and do all these things together. 571 00:32:00,060 --> 00:32:03,040 So the next one is the conflict. 572 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:09,680 So essentially he says that a consequence of the fall is that it introduced conflict 573 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:19,240 into husband-wife relationships, which, okay, valid point because the fall introduced sin. 574 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,760 Conflict would go along with that because if we weren't sinful, we would all know God's 575 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,040 perfect plan and just do that. 576 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:33,520 So in, he quotes Genesis 3 16 where God tells Eve, your desire shall be for your husband 577 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,800 and he shall rule over you. 578 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:43,120 Now in my mind, that's God saying as part of this punishment, unfortunately comes patriarchy. 579 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,480 Sucks. 580 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,880 The punishment is not a good time. 581 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:59,160 He says that what this meant is that instead of her just automatically going along with 582 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:06,920 what her husband says, that her inner self is going to now want to disagree with her 583 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:07,960 husband. 584 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,940 The Olympics we have to do to make this make sense. 585 00:33:10,940 --> 00:33:16,920 So the desire will now be for her to interfere or distort the role of her husband, the role 586 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,160 that God gave to her husband. 587 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,680 Eve is now going to rebel against the God given authority of her husband and he's going 588 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,240 to abuse that authority and rule poorly. 589 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:33,400 Do they think that they're not abusing their role right now? 590 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,680 Do they think they're not being butt heads now? 591 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:45,360 I mean, he apparently thinks that, but instead of let's do some inner work right now. 592 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,400 Does he look at himself and just think, oh no, I'm not doing that, but they're doing 593 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,400 wrong? 594 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,400 Yeah. 595 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,880 Well, his whole article is about how women are doing wrong, not about how men are doing 596 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:55,880 wrong. 597 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,600 So, and I love when men get to tell women what God told them to do. 598 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:02,600 Love that. 599 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:03,600 Good times. 600 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:10,360 So instead of it being a part of the fall, he's saying that it was the perfect plan in 601 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:17,800 the first place and the part of the fall was that now she was going to be really annoying. 602 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,400 That's really what it boils down to. 603 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:27,640 Then he talks about the restoration, which is, so he says when Christ comes to earth, 604 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:40,080 so when Christ is on the earth, that he would undo this, he calls it the marriage order, 605 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:45,160 that essentially he, that Christ would say directly, men are no longer in authority over 606 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:51,480 their wives, because then that would be like the fulfillment of God's plan. 607 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:58,520 And he says that instead Christ tells women to overcome the sinful impulses that they 608 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:05,080 have against their husband and tells the husband to stop ruling harshly over her. 609 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,020 Again he doesn't provide any verses for this. 610 00:35:09,020 --> 00:35:16,320 I argue when Jesus died it talks about tearing the veil, so essentially it means that we 611 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:26,320 have direct access to God, we don't have to go through a priest or something like that. 612 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,120 That also kind of means I don't have to go through my husband to have access to God. 613 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,120 Correct? 614 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,680 I mean, I think so. 615 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,600 Like I'm my own person, like I have a mind and a heart and a soul. 616 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:45,040 And we're created in God's image just as much as any man. 617 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,360 Now again, there are no verses here. 618 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,300 There's no biblical reference, there's no historical reference, he's just talking. 619 00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:56,880 So take that as you will. 620 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,440 And then he says, the mystery. 621 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,480 Oh sweet mystery of life, at last I've found thee. 622 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,240 Now we can call it the musical. 623 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:08,240 OHH! 624 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:14,380 I don't think I'm gonna get copyrighted for that. 625 00:36:14,380 --> 00:36:15,640 That's thoroughly modern Milly. 626 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,880 I would be surprised if the thoroughly modern Milly people come after you. 627 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:25,340 Although that is not the best of the place. 628 00:36:25,340 --> 00:36:26,340 No. 629 00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:30,800 But it has great music. 630 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:37,900 up pretty good music. Although I didn't make it seem like it. So the last one is, now he 631 00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:44,100 goes into talking about Paul. So in Ephesians, which we, I'm hoping we'll get into a little 632 00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:50,500 bit in this one, but we might have to kind of... A part two? A part two. So Ephesians 633 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:57,260 is really, it's a rough one for women and I think because it's mostly misunderstood. 634 00:36:57,260 --> 00:37:06,560 But here he's going to talk about Ephesians and he quotes Ephesians 5, 31 and 32 where 635 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,200 he says that Paul shows the ultimate purpose in marriage is to mirror the relationship 636 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:21,880 between Christ and the church. One of my least favorite analogies. So he quotes another... 637 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:30,960 It's beautiful. He quotes another pastor here that is not a good guy. Like let's just stop 638 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:39,600 quoting pastors who have been shamed and accused of things. Let's just stop that. But why? They're 639 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:45,360 men. So the quote from another person says, although Adam and Eve did not know it, their 640 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,480 relationship represented the relationship between Christ and the church. They were created 641 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,040 to represent that relationship and that is what all marriages are supposed to do. In 642 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:59,920 that relationship, Adam represents Christ and Eve represents the church. Now I just, 643 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:06,400 I just need to make one point here. When Adam and Eve were on the earth, there had been 644 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:16,380 no Christ. There had been no church. Quite literally. Something cannot be representative 645 00:38:16,380 --> 00:38:25,880 of something that doesn't exist. And also the churches we think about it is not what 646 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,200 the church that the Bible is thinking about it. You know? Yeah, exactly. Makes sense. 647 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,000 Do I know words? No, but wait, you're just, tell me if this is what you're saying. Cause 648 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:41,040 I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please do. Make me sound more educated. Please. The 649 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:50,640 church of today is not the church of Bible times. Yeah. See, I always knew you were intelligent. 650 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:58,400 Thanks. So when Paul says, you know, when Paul is referencing the church ever, he's 651 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:10,640 not represent, he's not referencing 2024 non-denominational slightly Baptist churches. 652 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:18,320 He's just not where the preachers wear very expensive tennis shoes in denim jackets and 653 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:24,960 have tattoos on their arms. Maybe one on their face. Maybe this is 2024. It is 2024. The 654 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,280 year of post Malone. It's the year of post Malone. Last year was the year of the Barbie. 655 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,640 Oh, right. I forgot about that. Was it, or was that this year? That was definitely not 656 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:41,960 this year. Was it last year? Must've been. Yeah. Definitely not this year. Yeah, it was 657 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,440 last year. But think about like, so saying that Adam and Eve are representative of Christ 658 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,880 in the church. Let's just pull that one apart for a second. Cause I love to do that. That 659 00:39:51,880 --> 00:40:00,840 would be like saying that my great, great, great grandparents relationship is representative 660 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:09,520 of mine. Does that make any sense? It can't be. My marriage didn't exist yet. And maybe 661 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:16,120 it's too early for this argument too, but I love when people, men in particular talk 662 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:22,520 about how it's representative of Christ in the church. That means that you are comparing 663 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:31,120 yourself to Christ. I'm gonna tell you right now, you're not. You can't sanctify me. You 664 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:37,760 can't forgive me of my sins. You're not. And let's be like, this verse we will go into 665 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,520 more because the next article really, really dives into this one. I love how she talks 666 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:52,000 about it, but do you want that role? Men out there, do you want to have to be Christ? You 667 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:58,480 don't. As men and women, we should all strive to be as much like Jesus as we can. But you're 668 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,520 not talking about being like Jesus. You're talking about the responsibility of Jesus. 669 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:19,780 It's very different. If you're handing men the responsibility to be Jesus to their spouses. 670 00:41:19,780 --> 00:41:24,960 You're failing all around the world, baby. You can't succeed at that. You can't. It's 671 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:30,640 impossible. And that would be God giving- For anyone, man or woman. Absolutely. That 672 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:37,480 would be God giving you a task that you cannot, you have no ability to complete. You have 673 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:46,040 no ability to fulfill that. Does that sound like a loving God? Not really. No. If God 674 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,280 is automatically setting you up for failure, that doesn't sound like the God that's been 675 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:56,000 described to me. That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible. So ask that question. Does 676 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:02,760 it stand up? Does it make sense? If God is asking you to be Jesus for your wife and you 677 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:09,440 can't possibly do it? Failure. Marriage turns into failure. Automatically. And obviously 678 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:17,920 it would result in anger too. So abuse. I mean really. Because he can't fulfill that 679 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:26,360 role. He has no ability to fulfill that role. And that would be very frustrating to think 680 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:33,320 that God asks something of you that, well, bummer, guess you're gonna fail today. It's 681 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:38,480 in conservative churches where this is preached often. And let me tell you, it is preached 682 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:46,120 to death. Honestly, we were at a not super conservative church recently and they preached 683 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:53,400 on it like five different times. In the span of a few months. Secretly really conservative. 684 00:42:53,400 --> 00:43:01,920 My gosh. But whenever it's brought up, it's very emotionally manipulative because it's 685 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:09,040 like, oh, this is a beautiful representation of Christ and the church. And don't you just 686 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:16,320 want to be that? Don't you want to be a representation of who Christ and the church was? Christ loved 687 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:21,520 the church. He laid down his life for the church. And it's very emotionally manipulative. 688 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:30,240 It's a power grab. It is. Because it makes you as a woman feel like, well yeah, I want 689 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:35,480 to represent Christ to the world, but you don't get to represent Christ to the world. 690 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,640 You have to represent, I guess, the church. I don't know what that looks like, but you 691 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:46,640 don't get to represent Christ. Your husband does. So screw you. And what you have to say 692 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:53,920 is not important. And you are not important. And let me just say, it can be a beautiful 693 00:43:53,920 --> 00:44:04,440 representation when you're the man. Because you get all the power and all the glory. You 694 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:10,000 can say, I've heard countless men say this, it's not about power. It's about responsibility. 695 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:15,880 There's so much responsibility laid on men and it's such a hard burden to bear. But that's 696 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,920 the argument that I have heard a million times. Men have it really hard because they have 697 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:28,000 all the responsibility of making all of the choices and controlling all of the situations. 698 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:38,000 And it's insulting to women. Absolutely. When you say that, because you're saying, because 699 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,200 you just get to go along with it. Nothing that you do really is important or really 700 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,760 matters. Everything that I do matters though. And it's so hard to be me. And it's a beautiful 701 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:53,000 representation. It's beautiful. I want them to describe why it's beautiful. Because I 702 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:59,360 think it would be really difficult. Why is it, why do you think it's beautiful to me? 703 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:08,880 Because I don't have to do anything. I'm not responsible for anything. I'm just leisure-ing. 704 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:16,020 It can be beautiful when you're in control. Yeah. It's not beautiful sitting over here. 705 00:45:16,020 --> 00:45:23,200 When you tell a woman that has all kinds of leadership potential, that she now no longer 706 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:31,600 gets to be a leader, and she has to be a follower, that all of her desires have to be her husband's 707 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:39,560 desires. And help build up his dream. Absolutely. She doesn't get a voice or a say. She doesn't 708 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:45,280 get to be a person anymore. So why would I want to get married? If that is what I truly 709 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:55,280 believe God wants of women, no thank you. No thank you. And frankly, there's no loving 710 00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,880 God in that for women. Nope. For men, you can still look at that and say, oh, what a 711 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:07,560 loving God. He put me in charge and I get to do whatever I want to do. And I'm sure 712 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,940 that there will be arguments of, well, but he has to do it with the good of his family 713 00:46:11,940 --> 00:46:16,160 in mind. He has to do it with whatever. I would do it with the good of my family in 714 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:22,160 mind. It's not like, woo, yay for you. You're thinking of other people. No, that's just 715 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:30,720 called being a good person. Or a human. Having a family. Yeah. If I really believe that, 716 00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:38,480 if I really believed that God made me to be secondary, that God made people and said, 717 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:44,840 I like this one better, he's going to be in charge. She's a little stupid. So I'm just 718 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:50,280 going to, I'm going to let her cruise. But that's how so many conservative men treat 719 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:57,120 women. They're stupid. They don't know what they're doing. They're weak. They can't possibly 720 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:03,520 lead. They can't possibly make a decision. And we could honestly just keep talking about 721 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:09,160 this all day. But I think it's important now as we're hitting kind of that almost 50 minute 722 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:14,840 mark to talk about what we're going to talk about next week as we bounce into the second 723 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:23,760 part of this really cool series. I think we're going to hold off on the next article until 724 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:29,320 our next episode. So you guys get to wait for that. It's going to be really good. I'm 725 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:38,400 very excited. I just, I feel like listen to this episode with an open heart and wait for 726 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:45,040 the next one. Cause it's yeah, next week, you know, what we wanted to do with this episode 727 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:53,280 was kind of pull apart a lot of the arguments, loosen it all up so that we can, we wanted 728 00:47:53,280 --> 00:48:04,480 to get loose so that next week we can go into some very heavily research based information 729 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:11,800 and fill in some of those questions because there are a lot of questions. If God didn't 730 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:17,320 mean for women to be solely submissive to their husbands, then why does he talk about 731 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:23,560 why it is a V Ephesians have so many verses about it? Why does in Genesis he curse Eve 732 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:30,680 with her desire being for her husband? So we wanted to pull all of this part and talk 733 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,440 about it a little bit. And then next week we are going to read from an article and talk 734 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,520 about an article. And I think it would be good for, we could put it up somewhere so 735 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:46,520 people can look it up too. Oh yeah. Good idea. So the next episode is going to be, it's called 736 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:55,760 Paul's main point in Ephesians 5 22 to 33. And it goes into that really difficult passage 737 00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:02,360 of Ephesians where it talks about submission. They call it the marital codes. And it's one 738 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:09,400 that I just have always really struggled with. And it's a really amazing research based article 739 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:14,560 all around that segment and what it really means instead of what we were told it meant. 740 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:19,360 I feel like we say this all the time. It doesn't mean what we've been told that it means. Because 741 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:28,040 we see it through our Western 2024 brains. But think about when this was written and what 742 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:35,760 it meant back then. Right. And Paul, and we, I think we said this a couple weeks ago too, 743 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:41,960 I did not like Paul for a long time. Paul could kiss our tushies. I struggled with Paul 744 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:49,320 because it seems like he has so much to say about women and it just all seems really mean. 745 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,480 And so I honestly would just kind of skip over those passages for a lot of my faith 746 00:49:53,480 --> 00:50:00,920 journey. And now as I am able to do a lot of research, look into so much of this and 747 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:07,320 read great research based articles and books and things like that, I'm starting to see 748 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:15,800 Paul in a whole new light and realize that like we have done bad things to Paul's writing. 749 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:22,160 He was a great writer. He was a he made things a little bit confusing. He did make some things 750 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:27,120 confusing. But I think they're confusing because we're looking at them from here. We're looking 751 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:32,600 at them from 2000 years in the future. They probably weren't confusing back then. Probably 752 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:39,520 not. And also we're looking at it through translation after translation. It's like a 753 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:46,520 game of telephone. Imagine being there as Phoebe went and delivered Paul's letter to 754 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:56,040 the Roman church. Preached it. Girl. Preach. You know how people can't tell our voices 755 00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:01,560 apart anyway? If we say things at the same time. Honestly, when I'm editing, I can't 756 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,480 tell our voices apart sometimes. I have to look at which mic is which. I did label them 757 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:14,280 this time. That's nice. It's helpful for later. All right. Well, we are super excited to chat 758 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:19,160 with you again in a couple of weeks about submission even further. We'll see if maybe 759 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:25,320 this becomes a three parter. So far it's just two. But it depends on how much rage we want 760 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:30,720 to put in this musical. We have a great deal to say. And I want everybody to know that 761 00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:40,200 I've almost entirely drunken. Drunken? Drunk. A venti iced coffee from Starbucks during 762 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:47,000 this. So if you haven't, we would love to have you follow us on our social media. We 763 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:53,320 are on Instagram and Facebook. And Tikitalk. And Tikitalk. And YouTube. We're all over 764 00:51:53,320 --> 00:52:04,080 the place. We're Mr. Worldwide. So Instagram and Facebook is we are more dot podcast. And 765 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:09,200 Tik Tok. It's stupid. I'm sure if you look up like we are more will pop up. But it's 766 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:18,440 like we dot more dot. Nope. Try again. We dot are dot more four. There we go. We're 767 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,240 actually quite funny on Tik Tok. I'll be honest with you. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm 768 00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:31,400 just going to have a laugh. But we're pretty funny. We're going to film some right now 769 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,560 because we forgot to film them while we were recording. Oh, good call. Good for us. My 770 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:42,680 phone's over there. I cannot reach it. Go go Gadget Art. Alright, we'll see you guys 771 00:52:42,680 --> 00:53:04,080 next week. Nope. Two weeks from now. I love you. Bye bye.